Why You Say Yes When You Shouldn't — And How To Say No When It Matters Most | Dr. Sunita Sah

A conversation with a Cornell professor who is attempting to rebrand the concept of defiance. Dr. Sunita Sah https://www.sunitasah.com/ started her career as a physician but then switched over to organizational psychology. At Cornell, she conducts research on influence, authority, compliance, and defiance. She is the author of Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes. https://www.sunitasah.com/defy In this episode we talk about: How Dr. Sah defines defiance The costs of compliance The five stages of defiance How to make defiance a practice The upside of tension The importance of knowing your values — how to articulate them, and how this relates to our biology, specifically our hormones The gender components of defiance Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris Sponsors: Smalls: For a limited time only, get 60% off your first order PLUS free shipping when you head to Smalls.com/HAPPIER https://Smalls.com/HAPPIER. Function Health: Learn more and join using our link. The first 1,000 get a $100 credit toward their membership. Visit www.functionhealth.com/HAPPIER https://www.functionhealth.com/HAPPIER or use gift code HAPPIER 100 at sign-up to own your health.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hello, party people. How we doing? Here's a question. How often do you say yes to things only to regret it later? Why do we do that? Social pressure, power dynamics, eagerness to please, guilt, habit? Today, I'm talking to a Cornell professor who is attempting to rebrand the concept of defiance. Many of us think of that term as negative, but my guest argues that the pressure to comply is a pervasive corrosive force in our culture and that we all need to do a better job of learning when and how to say no. Dr. Sunita Sah started her career as a physician, but then she switched over to organizational psychology.

• 1:04Dan Harris?

  And at Cornell, she conducts research on influence, authority, compliance, and defiance. She's out with a book now called Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes. And in this conversation, we talk about how she defines defiance, the costs of compliance, the five stages of defiance, how to make defiance a practice in your life, the upside of tension, even though many of us want to avoid it, the importance of knowing your values. This is a theme that keeps coming up here on the show that I find very interesting. She's going to talk about how to articulate your values and how this relates to your biology, specifically your hormones. And we talk about the gender components of defiance and much more.

• 1:45Dan Harris?

  Just to say, before we dive in here, it can be very tricky to figure out whether you should say yes or no in a given situation. It often involves tuning into your body, which is an overused and cliched notion, but a powerful one nonetheless. So if you want to get better at this skill, and it really is a skill, we've got a guided meditation for you, which is... Specifically tailored to this episode, and it comes from our Teacher of the Month, Kyra Jewell-Lingo, who will be crafting bespoke meditations for all of our Monday, Wednesday episodes during the month of August. We think of this as the kind of lecture lab model. The pod is the lecture where you're learning interesting stuff, and the lab is where you practice applying it in your own mind. As you may have heard me say before, one of the hardest parts about personal growth

• 2:30Dan Harris?

  or self-development, or whatever you want to call it, is remembering. You hear really interesting stuff on a podcast, or you read it in a book, and then you forget. One of the beautiful things about meditation is it can be a remembering machine. In fact, and you may have heard me say this as well, one of the original translations for the word sati, which we now translate as mindfulness, is remembering or recollecting. So anyway, head on over to danharris.com, and if you become a paid subscriber, you can get these meditations, which we will now be churning out on Monday and Wednesday episodes. If you sign up, you also get regular live video sessions where I do a guided meditation and then take your questions. In fact, I'll be doing one tomorrow at 3:30 Eastern. Okay, we'll get started with Dr.

• 3:15Dan Harris?

  Sunita Saw right after this. If you care about supporting independent media, and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low-stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit, and not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds, and they really do help.

• 3:59Dan Harris?

  You will be supporting me and my team and our mission, and I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. If you care about supporting independent media and if you care about being a node of sanity and an insane world, there are a few quick, easy and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps.

• 4:42Dan Harris?

  Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit. And not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission. And I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. Dr. Sunita Saw, welcome to the show.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  It's wonderful to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.

• 5:16Dan Harris?

  Thank you for showing up. I would love to start with a little of your personal story and how you got interested in the, in the subject of defiance. We can define defiance at some point, but let's just start with your personal story. And in particular, I noticed that your name actually has to do with compliance.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  That's right. Yes, I got into this work for both personal and professional reasons. And one of the things I say is that I really, I grew up with a masterclass in compliance. And I did ask my dad when I was quite young, what does my name Sunita mean? And he said in Sanskrit, Sunita means good. And the way that I interpreted good and the messages that I received was that to be good really means to be polite, to be nice, to obey, to do as you're told, to not question authority. So I really started equating being compliant with being good and defiance with being bad.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  And many of us get those messages, not just from parents, but also teachers and maybe the community. So we've become socialized to comply. Almost becomes our default response. And then that becomes really difficult to.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Defy when you actually need to when you're older. So that aspect is also could be a dynamic that's familiar to sort of children of immigrants, the strict upbringing and the high expectations. So that kind of burden of being good and what is being good was very salient to me as a child.

• 6:59Dan Harris?

  I'm not an expert in this, so I'll ask you as an expert. I would imagine there are gender components to this as well.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yes, I think some of the messages that I received, probably girls received them more than boys. You know, to be polite, to think about other people's feelings, put their feelings above yours, to be sort of looking after other people, perhaps even being subservient. So those messages are pretty strong at times, but many people, many parents actually do want their children to be compliant. Like if you talk about a child being defiant, it's not seen as a good thing. And so we do want that kind of aspect of telling children to do as you're told and for them to do what we want them to do. So I remember when my son was like, he was four, almost five years old.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  I was in London, my hometown, and I really wanted to see the Olympic torch pass by. And that afternoon was hot, at least hot for London. And I was trying to take my son there and he was just didn't want to go. And I was really hot and frazzled and he kept asking to be picked up and I could only pick him up for a few steps. He was too heavy and I kept telling him, we're going to miss the flame. Come on, let's go. This is a once in a lifetime experience to which he looked utterly unimpressed at that. And he just then sat down on the pavement and said, I don't want to see it. I don't want to go and kind of jutted his chin out.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And I ended up missing the flame and I was walking back with him and I was just like saying, you know, oh, why couldn't you have been good? And then that sentence really came to me as in everything that I was taught and that moral equation that I have of compliance being good and defiance being bad. I was teaching him the same thing, just because he wasn't doing what I wanted him to do. And when I told my husband about it, he was like, you know, remember that what you used to tell me about our relatives when Samuel was born. And that was that they always used to ask when he was a little baby, a newborn baby, is he good? And by that, they meant, does he sleep when you want him to sleep? Does he eat? Does he feed when you

• 9:13Speaker 01

  want him to feed? Does he cry? And I was like, well, of course, he's good. He's a baby, you know, but this is what it is. Is he compliant? Is he doing what you want him to do? And I always was really puzzled by that fact. Like, is that what we think being good is? And so we make all these associations about what good is. And it is such a strong association with being compliant and living up to other people's expectations, that we really need to break that moral equation later on in life. And for many people, especially with that kind of upbringing and being socialized to be compliant, find it very difficult to break that moral equation.

• 9:50Dan Harris?

  We'll get into the into the how in a moment, but let's just stay on a high level for a few more minutes. The book is called Defy. As you said before, defiance does have a bit of a branding issue. So how are you defining defiance?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Well, because of this aspect of equating compliance with being good and defiance with being bad, I just became so fascinated by that single powerful word defy for such a long time. I was always fascinated by people who could defy and be themselves. And when I started delving into sort of compliance and looking at this in my research as well, I found that one study found that on average, nine out of 10 healthcare workers, most of them nurses, felt too uncomfortable to speak up when they saw a colleague making an error. And also in other industries, in another survey of over 1700 crew members on commercial

• 10:50Speaker 01

  airlines, about half of them didn't feel comfortable speaking up when they saw someone making a mistake. So you can imagine if you were in that hospital or on that airplane, these are situations you want people to be speaking up and doing something. So I really started to wonder, is it sometimes bad to be so good? And what do we actually sacrifice by being so compliant? Because even if it's not a life and death situation, If you are constantly disregarding your values and not being able to say no and defy,

• 11:26Speaker 01

  it can be soul destroying in a way. I often felt a lot of tension between what I thought was the right thing to do and what other people expected me to do. And it was that tension that really drove a lot of my research and the work that I do. And that's when I came to this revelation that we've misunderstood what it means to defy. So the Oxford English Dictionary defines defiance as to defy is to challenge the power of someone else boldly and openly. And even though I grew up in the UK, I think that's far too narrow a definition. And my definition of defiance is that to defy is simply to act in accordance with

• 12:07Speaker 01

  your values, especially when there is pressure to do otherwise. So we've reframed defiance as something positive and proactive that can help not just yourself, but the people around you and society. Because if we think about it, every single act of compliance, of consent, of defiance, that really adds up to the society that we live in. And so it affects our lives, it affects our workplaces, it affects our communities. And that's why I'm very passionate about understanding this and giving people tools to be actually be able to defy when they need to.

• 12:45Dan Harris?

  My wife and I for many years have often on seen this couples therapist, Michael Vincent Miller, awesome dude. And he once said that the code of a relationship, so in digital code, it's ones and zeros, but the code of a relationship is yeses and nos.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Interesting. And that most of it should be yeses?

• 13:11Dan Harris?

  No, no, it's just more that I'm picking up on your concept that our compliance or defiance is what makes a society. And I think yeses and nos are what make up relationships, romantic or otherwise.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Right. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, it has an effect in the environment every time we say, and interpersonal effect too. Every time we say yes or we say no, we're creating norms and those norms create our lives.

• 13:45Dan Harris?

  You write that there are five stages for defiance. Can you walk us through those?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Sure, I identified these five stages and it's a useful framework for what we might experience when we actually defy. So some people can skip stages, you can go back and forth, but a lot of people do progress in this way. And the first stage of defiance is tension. And that is the tension that I spoke about, like when you want to defy, you often feel some kind of tension. It manifests in your body in some way, and it could be different for each person. Some people feel some unease in their stomach, other people get a dry mouth or a constricted throat, some people get a headache. So it's really

• 14:33Speaker 01

  useful to learn what that sign is that you get. And that tension is really important because a lot of people think that is what is doubt or anxiety or their weakness. But actually, if you didn't have any tension, you would have given all your power and agency away. If you had done that, you would just be, yes, of course, you know, you wouldn't feel any tension. That tension is actually a signal of your strength that perhaps this is not the right thing to do. So the second stage is really acknowledging that to yourself is like really examining, why do I feel this tension? Why do I feel uncomfortable? What is it that I think is wrong about this situation? And really examining that. And

• 15:18Speaker 01

  then stage three is a really critical stage because that involves vocalizing that tension to someone else. So externalizing it. And why that's such a critical stage is because once you do that, a number of things happened. One is that you change the environment a little bit. Two, The research shows that you're more likely to get to the final stage five and defy. Because you can't go back after you've said this out loud that you're not comfortable with this. Or you're asking questions to clarify the situation. You can't then go back in time and say that you were fine with it because you'd have too much cognitive dissonance. So that's why it's critical to be able to just simply say, have you considered this? I'm not comfortable with that.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  There might be another way. Can you clarify for me this? And in this stage, you can still be in a subservient position. You know, you're you're asking for clarification, not confrontation, showing some curiosity as to why is it that we should go in this direction or you would like me to do this, you know? So trying to find out a little bit more about the situation. Then, once you have those answers, stage four is your non-compliance communication. So really threatening, I suppose you could call that a threat or just communication of I can't go along with that. So it's a threat of non-compliance. And then the final act, stage five, is your act of defiance, your final act of defiance. And and that's not going along with it.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And the really fascinating thing is that if you can get to that final stage of defiance, all that tension that you felt in stage one, that just dissipates. It melts away and that's actually really fascinating to see. Because a lot of people, when they're in stage one and they just disregard it, or even if they acknowledge it to themselves, they try to sweep it away and they think it's weakness. It doesn't actually go away if you just swallow your words or just keep it to yourself. It actually grows and can lead to resentment and regret and a whole lot of other negative consequences. So getting to stage five and being able to act in alignment with what you think is the right thing to do

• 17:33Speaker 01

  is really more authentic, it's more honest, it's more joyful, and that tension just dissipates.

• 17:39Dan Harris?

  I noted with interest that one of the things you recommend, which if you didn't recommend, I would have recommended, is meditation as a way for people to boost self-awareness so that they know when there's tension. Not in just like an ambient, miasmatic way, but like you actually see it for what it is. And specifically, body scan meditation, where you kind of sweep your attention, starting at the top of your head and down through the rest of your body, as a practice that gives you improved intosception or ability to perceive the body's signals so that you can know when you're at that tension stage. Maybe say a little bit more about that.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that tension is really a powerful signal. It's like the warning sign that something isn't quite right here. And it's a shame that we often think about tension as being something so uncomfortable or something that's weak within us that we just have to get through. To really listen to that tension is going to give you your strength. It's really what I say, it's your values speaking to you. It's trying to warn you that something isn't right and to really look at this in more detail. And I think it's really fascinating if people can get in tune with how it manifests in themselves, because it can be different for each person, as I mentioned,

• 19:05Speaker 01

  and really know what the signs are. Oh, I felt this before, why is that? You know, and it's the way I learned how to defy when I needed to, because I would be in a situation, I would feel this tension, and I would often try to disregard it or just go along with what the other person wanted. But the next time you're in that situation and you feel that tension again, it reminds you, oh, this is what I did last time. Maybe this time I can listen to it and do something different. And tell you, once you get to that stage five and that tension goes away, it's a wonderful feeling. It's a wonderful accomplishment to be able to live in alignment with what you think is the right thing to do.

• 19:48Dan Harris?

  Yes, easier said than done.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 19:51Dan Harris?

  And we'll get into ways to make it easier to do in a moment. But you've brought up values a lot, although I actually I used a but in that last sentence. I probably should have said and because I think this concept of values, which may sound sort of anodyne or like a bromide or something like that. But the way you talk about it, it actually is quite practical and can help you defy more successfully. So can you say more about why it's so important to understand what your values are? And I guess as an add on question, like I think many of us may not have even articulated our values.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that's true. Very few people think about their values, even less write down their values unless they're explicitly asked to write down their values. I think it's fascinating that like lots of organizations and institutions, they have like a mission statement or they have company values, but we often don't do that for ourselves. And I have my executive students do this exercise every year. So right at the beginning of their leadership courses, I ask them to think about their values and why their values are important to them, how they came to their values. And the reason I ask them to write it down is because the research shows that if you can

• 21:10Speaker 01

  actually write down your values, first of all, you're more likely to act in alignment with them. And second of all, you have a lower stress response, a lower cortisol level if you know who you are and what you stand for. And so the second important aspect of this is really understanding what do we mean by values in the first place? Because it's not about sort of a goal or a belief, a value, what I see.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Time and time again, year after year, is that they tend to come down to often very simple words that seem quite universal. So they're not moral convictions such as abortion is wrong or homosexuality is right, because when you look at those things, they can be quite divisive and people have different opinions and beliefs about them. They're not sort of moral convictions in that we sort of see them as fact, but you can have a big debate with someone about them. What I'm talking about are values such as integrity, compassion, benevolence, fairness, justice. These are the types of values that I see. And if we can enact them in our behaviour on a day-to-day basis, that is really powerful.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  But people often have these values. They will say, and I often ask my executive students to do this exercise, and, you know, rate yourself on a scale of zero to a hundred in how honest you think you are relative to other people in the room. So if you think you are the least honest, it should be zero. If you think you are the most honest, it should be a hundred. And if you think you're average, it should be fifty. And I see the same results every year. What do you think that would be?

• 22:58Dan Harris?

  Seventy-five?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  It's always about eighty-five or over, right?

• 23:03Dan Harris?

  Lake Wobegon.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Like, half the people in the class need to be below average and half need to be above for this to work, but everybody is saying eighty-five or over. Very few are saying they're average and nobody is saying they're below average. So we really value this aspect of integrity, but whether we can actually live that value is different. Because what I've seen is what somebody believes their values to be is quite different from how they actually behave. That distance between who we think we are and what we actually do is enormous. So how do we get closer to eliminating that gap or at least mitigating that gap is learning how to devise an important way, given how much so much of our behaviour is influenced by others. And it starts at a very young age. So there

• 23:50Speaker 01

  was a survey of over twenty thousand high school students, and it found in that survey that nearly two-thirds of students have said that they have cheated on a test.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Maybe that doesn't surprise people, but it also said nearly one third had stolen something from a store in the past year, which I was surprised about. And then this next one, given that I have a student at high school, was a little bit heartbreaking, was that over eighty percent had said that they had lied to their parent about something significant. And these figures are likely higher because one in four confessed they'd lied on at least one question in the survey. So it starts at this young age, but it's not unique to high school students because they also say that they're happy with their ethics and honesty. So what we need to do is really align our behaviors and our actions with the values

• 24:48Speaker 01

  that we state we have, because if we can't do that, who we are and what we value actually changes. Because I'm sure you've heard, like, people saying, like, doing something and then sort of saying, this is not me. But if you do it over and over again, then it actually is you. So we really need to be aware of who we are and whether we actually behave in the way that we want to behave, whether we can enact those values on a day to day basis.

• 25:17Dan Harris?

  I want to bring this directly back to defiance in a big way in a second, but just as a, I don't think it's too much of a digression, as a point of interest, you said something about the fact that we have lower stress levels, maybe even lower levels of stress hormones, if we know what we stand for?

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yes, so there's some research shows that clarifying our values leads to a lower biological stress reaction. So we have lower cortisol levels if we know our values and we can act in alignment with them.

• 25:48Dan Harris?

  You know, I just, I'll use my privilege as the host of the show to say a little bit about myself, and I'm doing that a little bit sheepishly because this is something I've said a million times, so I, to my loyal listeners, I apologize. But you may not know, Sunita, that I got two years ago a tattoo on my left wrist, right next to my watch, that has the letters FTBOAB, which stands for, for the benefit of all beings, which is a classical Buddhist expression. And it is a value of mine to be altruistic, to be in service, not in a way in which I'm wearing a hair shirt, because the letter A stands for all beings, and of course, I'm part of that, so self-interest is not ruled out within this.

• 26:33Dan Harris?

  Worldview, but I have found that having this on my wrist and reminding myself all the time in the middle of a workout, yeah, I'm working out so that I can be healthier and happier, so that I can make other people healthier and happier. I do everything I do in work at work, not only to support me and my family, but to, you know, leave this place a little better than it was when I arrived, et cetera, et cetera. And it does reduce my stress because it's very easy for me to get carried away in anxiety around financial stuff or performance stuff. But if I can, whenever I remember to look at it through the lens of my principal value, all that shit melts away.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, absolutely. And we can do things that are very uncomfortable if we know why we're doing that, right? So a lot of people talk about purpose. I'm talking about that. Let's drill it down to our values. Like, what would a person like me with these values, with integrity, fairness, compassion, whatever is the most important to you, what would they do in this type of situation? And that is really powerful. That particular sentence that I have as as part of a tool that I use has allowed me to step closer to doing the things that I once felt very uncomfortable to do, which is saying no,

• 27:53Speaker 01

  and which is defying when I need to act in a way that would go against somebody else's expectations, but would align with the values that are important to me.

• 28:06Dan Harris?

  Yes. So I can imagine a couple mechanisms by which clarifying your values would lower the release of cortisol in your brain. One would be not being a hypocrite, probably feels pretty good, that the delta between kind of vague sense of what a quote unquote moral person does and what you are actually doing probably creates a background static of cognitive dissonance, or anxiety, or sadness, or stress that isn't helpful. Another mechanism would be what you just articulated, that if you're clear about who you are, what you stand for, then it makes it easier to do this otherwise very hard thing of saying, no,

• 28:50Dan Harris?

  I'm not, I'm not down for that.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think both play into this because the thing that keeps us silent and compliant is that we often think about the costs of defiance. Oh, I don't want to lose my job, or I don't want to lose this relationship, or I just find it very difficult to say no or imply something negative to the person that's standing right in front of me, and I forget about the bigger picture and everybody else that might be harmed. And I've identified some psychological processes for why that is, but what we do is we put so much weight on those costs of defying, which could be very real, but we don't think about the costs of compliance, like constantly bowing our head to other people and sacrificing what

• 29:37Speaker 01

  we think is important. And those costs can be very real, and indeed, stress is one of them. We build up resentment, we build up chronic stress, anxiety, inflammation, burnout, dissatisfaction. Like, there's so many negative consequences for being compliant when you and saying a yes, that's not really a yes. So we need to think about the costs of compliance, not just the costs of defiance.

• 30:08Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Dr. Sunita Sah talks about some key concepts, including the defiance compass. We dig deeper on aspects of moral language to help you understand and clarify the decisions you make on a daily basis and much more.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  How do I recover from a friendship breakup? How come there's nowhere to hang out anymore? Why do I feel lonely when I can communicate with anyone and everyone through my phone? These are the questions that you're not alone in asking, and that's where our new podcast, Cornerpiece, comes in to start small on life's biggest questions. I'm Taha, and with my friends Sabrina and Melissa, we're going to explore life's ungooglable questions on this new podcast with TED. Come hang out with us on Cornerpiece, with new episodes every other Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 31:02Dan Harris?

  Staying with this theme of values, you have a concept called the defiance compass. And values play a very important role in that. But I think there's more to the defiance compass. Can you describe what the defiance compass is?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Sure. So the defiance compass is three questions that go around like really one leads to the other. And the last question leads to the first question. So the three main questions, it starts with the very first one is who am I? And that is really your values. So identifying your values, what is important to you? And as I've said, like a lot of those values that I see coming up time and time again in my students, when I have them do this exercise, tend to be very powerful and very sort of simple words that we want to enact on a day to day basis. And we will say these things are important to us. So integrity, compassion, fairness, all of these things will say this is important.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  This is how I want to live my life. So that's the very first question that can be done outside of any sort of defiance situation. Like it's work that we can do at any time. The second question is looking outwards when you are in a situation to really assess what type of situation is this? So most people decide to either comply or defy by asking an additional two questions here, which is, is it safe? And is it effective? But I should always add, is it safe enough? Will it be effective enough? Because yes, defiance is inherently risky. And we can always use the fact that it's never going to be safe to remain compliant. But as I've said, there's also costs of being compliant.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And so we want to ask, is it safe enough? Will it be effective enough? So that's when we can decide whether we're going to defy in the moment, or whether we're going to defer defiance to another day, or whether in this situation, we're going to consciously comply, not just slide into it, but we are going to assess the situation. And I'll come to the definition of conscious compliance versus compliance and consent a little bit later on. So we have the two main questions so far is who am I? What type of situation is this? And then the last question is, what does a person like me do in a situation like this? And this is where we're tapping into our aspirational selves. So we're reminding ourselves of our values. What does a person like me with these values of?

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Fairness, of compassion, of integrity, what does a person like me do in a situation like this? And here, we need to connect, again, with our responsibilities and our values. So we do that with that question. And then that leads to our action. We also need the skill set. We need the ability to defy. So we need to learn that, otherwise we won't be able to enact in alignment with our values. But here, we're thinking, this is what I need to do. And once you act that way, it goes back to, and it affects who you are. So however you act in that situation goes back to who am I and what are my values? Am I living my values on a day-to-day basis or not? Because if you're not, then who you are will change.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  So that's the defiance compassion. It's a really useful tool that we can use in those situations to tap into our aspirational selves and, and perform the actions that we would wish that we could perform. So we actually become the person that we aspire to be.

• 34:32Dan Harris?

  So many more questions to ask you, but you mentioned that you would talk about conscious compliance.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:38Dan Harris?

  I'd be interested to pick up on that. Are you saying there are times where,

• 34:44Dan Harris?

  you know, if we do the math on it, it might make sense to comply consciously even though we don't fully agree?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Sometimes. So first of all, when I said at the beginning that we've misunderstood what it means to defy, and I gave you a new definition of that. There's so many ways that we've misunderstood defiance. And that's because we don't really understand what these terms, compliance, consent, defiance, conscious compliance actually are. And I want to give people this moral language really to understand and clarify the decisions that we make on a daily basis. So if we start with what is compliance? Compliance is Basically sliding into something. It's imposed on us from something external. So it could be an order, it could be a suggestion, it could be society's expectations.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  So yes, that's not quite a yes. It's coming from something outside of ourselves that's asking us to do something. Now consent is often conflated with compliance, but it's actually fundamentally different. So my first career was as a physician and I take informed consent in medicine and I apply it to other decisions that we make in our lives. And I think this is a really useful framework to use. So to have informed consent, you need five elements. So the first one is capacity. You need the cognitive capacity, the mental capacity to be able to make a decision. So you're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you're not too sick.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  And physicians should always assess their patients to make sure that they have the capacity to make a decision on their medical care. But we can assess that for ourselves when we're making a decision. Then the next one is knowledge, that we need information about the decision we're about to make. But it's not enough just to have the information. The third element is a thorough understanding of that information. So a grasp of all the facts, the risks, the benefits and the alternatives. And then the fourth element, once you have the capacity, the knowledge and the understanding, the fourth element is the freedom to say no. Because if you don't have the freedom to say no, then that's merely compliance, it's not consent.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  So if you have those four elements, then the fifth element is your authorization. Your thoroughly considered authorization, that is your active expression of your deeply held values. So that's your consent. It isn't compliance, it's very different. That's what I call consent or your true yes.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Now defiance is actually your true no, and you need the same five elements to be able to defy. So I'm not talking about like a knee jerk reaction or an emotional reaction. I'm talking again about a thoroughly considered authorization. That's an active expression of your deeply held values. So consent and defiance are just two sides of the same coin. And it just depends on what the expectation is, is whether you say yes or no. But you need all those factors there. And conscious compliance is not the kind of default compliance that we are kind of wired for in a way that we've been socialized to do. But it's when all those elements are present, so you have the capacity, knowledge, understanding, the freedom to say no.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  But in this particular situation, the costs are too great or the benefits are too meagre. That you don't think this is the right time and place to do it. That doesn't mean that you are always going to comply because the costs are only going to increase. But you are going to defer defiance to another day when it could be safer and more effective for you to do so.

• 38:31Dan Harris?

  What about situations where you don't have the freedom to say no? But I feel like many people listening may feel not only the costs are too high, or maybe the costs are so high that essentially I don't have the freedom to say.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. They are situations like that. And I interviewed a lot of my students for this. And there's a defiance hierarchy in that some people get to defy with less costs than others. And I write about a couple of situations where the black men in my class will spell out that if they are stopped by the police, perhaps a traffic stop or something like this, they want to get home, so they're going to comply so they can actually get home at the end of the day. So there's definitely situations where we want to consciously comply because it's too unsafe for us to think about anything else. And we need to be aware of those types of costs.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I do say, though, it's important to add the word safe enough and effective enough because we don't want to use these things as a rationalization to never defy. And if you think about some of the famous no's in history, for example, Rosa Parks's defiance on the bus. And we often think about defiance in this way. As being maybe loud, aggressive, violent, or we think about it as being superhuman and heroic. It's actually neither of those things. But Rosa Parks did say no on the bus. It was a really momentous occasion because it made a big social change. But if you think about it, there was a couple of things here. So one is that her famous no was preceded by hundreds of moments of likely compliance.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  So she didn't defy segregation laws every single day, every single moment. And so we need to remind ourselves that there are times that we need to consciously comply because it's too unsafe for us to defy. Was it safe for Rosa Parks in that particular moment? No, it wasn't safe for her. You know, she received a lot of death threats after saying no, that she will not move for a white passenger on the bus. She was unemployed for 10 years. There were certainly a lot of costs for her. But when she was asked whether she would do it again, she said yes, without hesitation, because for her, living up to her values was more important than the costs at that particular moment. But it was also strategic in that she did have support and this was the right moment for her to do it.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  So she thought it would be effective. Now, some people will defy, even if you can't predict it's going to be effective, because they want to stand or sit down for what they believe in. So it is a deeply personal decision of whether we defy or not. It comes down to our own personal assessment of this. What are the costs that we're willing to take? But I always say, again, think about the costs of compliance as well as the costs of defiance, because it's not a neutral decision if you just say yes to somebody else.

• 41:28Dan Harris?

  You said before that yes and no are two sides of the same coin. There's this concept of a full body yes. Are you familiar with that?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  I'm familiar with a hell yes, if that's, that's the same kind of thing where it feels really good, right? Like, true consent should feel really good.

• 41:47Dan Harris?

  And it does go back to meditation and interception and the idea of being able to listen to your body's signal. Yes, you should listen for the tension and you should also listen for the positive resonance with, yeah, hell, yes, I do want to do this. This is a great idea.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yes, and that is stage five, you know, which could be a yes, it could be a no. So, as I said, when you do defy that tension that you have at the beginning, it melts away and you're left with those positive aspects that you're talking about. And so feeling that and remembering those feelings are also really important.

• 42:28Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Dr. Saw talks about the steps that you can take to make defiance a practice in your life, the concept of psychological safety, and we get to my favorite topic, anxiety.

• 42:49Dan Harris?

  Throughout this conversation, we've both acknowledged that defiance is not always easy, and you've definitely given us some practical tools as the conversation has progressed. But let's kind of put a fine point on the how to do this aspect of your book. You talk about four steps to make defiance, again, understood more capaciously than the Oxford Dictionary might might render it, steps to make defiance a practice. They are anticipate, visualize, practice, and repeat or repetition. Can you walk us through these, please?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the things I say about defiance is that we need to be prepared long before the moment of crisis, because if we have been wired to comply from a young age, we can't just do something that feels really unnatural to us. And even though I've redefined defiance, some people have such a strong negative. Association with it, they find it so difficult to be even saying any defiant words or acting in a defiant way. Because we also have this vision of defiance as being a particular personality trait. And it's not, it's a skill set, it's a practice, not a personality.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  And so, one of the things that we want to start with is perhaps thinking about the situations that we complied and we regretted it, that we wished we could have defied in that situation. And so we start anticipating because it's likely we're going to experience those situations again. So we can even, even if we think about workplaces, for example, we can start to think about, oh, I was in that meeting and somebody said something that was quite harmful to someone who wasn't there. And I just remained silent, I didn't say anything. And I know that person is going to say something inappropriate, perhaps in the next meeting we have, because they've done it so many times. So we can start anticipating the most common situations that we might face.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  It could be at work, it could be somewhere else. I was speaking to a rookie police officer who told me that when they joined the police academy and they went into their first role, that they knew that they would be asked to do something unethical, or they would be asked to look the other way. They had anticipated that moment beforehand and they had thought about it, they'd visualized it. So let's think about the many situations that are often predictable to us. So we can anticipate, then we can visualize it, we start picturing it, and we start practicing by scripting out what we would say.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  And saying those words out loud, it really gets our mouths used to saying those words, which could be just as simple as, I'm not comfortable with this. What do you mean by that? That's also a really powerful phrase, what do you mean by that? You know, you're asking for clarification. Just practicing those scripts over and over again gets our mouths used to saying it, our ears used to hearing it. And that is what changes the neural pathways and makes it easier for us to say it in that moment of crisis. And there's a wonderful quote that's often attributed to Bruce Lee, which is apt because it is about practice, but it was actually a Greek poet that said, under duress, we don't rise to the level. Of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  And that's why it's so important to practice before we get into that situation.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  So I recommend it's not a personality, it's a practice. It's a skill set that we can choose to use. We can nurture it, we can create it, and we can choose when to use it. We can be compliant one day, we can be defiant the next day. But it really is a choice. And I don't want people to not defy just because they haven't learned how to defy.

• 46:41Dan Harris?

  This really rhymes with the core contention of the latter half of my career. I used to be a journalist, now I am whatever the fuck I am now, a happiness person or wellbeing person. But the animating insight of my work is that happiness, which I understand very broadly as, you know, all aspects of human flourishing or doing life better, from sleep to exercise to meditation, to therapy, to relationships, to beauty, to purpose. It's not a factory setting that's unalterable, it's a set of skills. And so that's what you're saying is true of defiance. And these four steps, you know, anticipate, visualize, practice the words, which I I really resonate with that.

• 47:22Dan Harris?

  And I've found that practicing for conversations, whether they're defiance conversations or not, can really help make them more successful. And then repeat, ad nauseam, ad infinitum, like that's how you do it. That really lands for me.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so powerful. It's so powerful. And it's also quite liberating to know that you don't have to have a self-concept or you don't have to think about yourselves as being brave or defiant or compliant. As I'm not that type of person, anyone can defy. It's actually, it's not just for the brave or the extraordinary. It is available and necessary for all of us. And so we can all defy in our own unique way with far less angst than we used to have. And it just starts with making defiance a practice. So we have that action plan that starts long before the moment of of crisis.

• 48:20Dan Harris?

  I would build on that to say that it's not just the right thing to do. It's also the self-interested thing to do. You don't need to develop this muscle just because you want to be a good citizen, which is great. But it's also gonna, as we said before, lower your stress levels.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:36Dan Harris?

  Make you happier, make your life more seamless.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, you are more of yourself, but it does transform you to live in alignment with yourself. But it also has a ripple effect in that it changes the environment. So if you are in that meeting and you just say, what do you mean by that? Maybe the person that has said the offensive or harmful comment, maybe they change, maybe they don't. But that's not the point. The point is you've put it out there and that has changed the water in which everybody else is swimming. So now like that person might not say it again. The next time you are in that room in a meeting, maybe they do. But there's other people in the room as well that saw what you did and maybe they will say something.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  So whatever happens, something has changed. And that aspect, what really made me think about defiance being a skill set and a practice rather than personality was something that happened to me as a child. Because as I said, I grew up with a masterclass in compliance. And my mama as well, she, she got married very young to my dad. She's of Indian origin. She's four foot 10 at the most. She's petite and I saw her as a very compliant person. She did all the cooking, the cleaning, the grocery shopping. She looked after everybody's needs. She was what I would call subservient and extremely compliant.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  So at that moment in time and for many years afterwards, I always thought about compliance and defiance as being binary. And I very neatly put her in the compliant box. And then when I was about seven or eight, something happened that's really changed how I viewed her. We were walking back from the grocery store. She was pulling along a shopping cart that was filled with produce. It just looks like, you know, wheeled luggage, so two wheels. We were pulling it along and it was quite a long walk back home. And we decided to go through what in the north of England, in West Yorkshire, we call a snicket, which is just a very narrow alleyway. And I was always told, don't go through the snicket on your own. As a child, when I would come back home from school.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  But we decided that two of us, you know, we would go together through this alleyway. And in that alleyway, we were stopped by a group of teenage boys. And they blocked our path and they started shouting out some racist comments and telling us to go back home. Now, my reaction to the boys was instant. I immediately grabbed my mum's arm. And I looked down, I averted my gaze, I did not want to look at these boys at all, I just wanted to manoeuvre as fast as possible through them to get home. But my mum, which I thought she would just do that and be compliant, she did something different that day. Now, she was wearing, I just remember it so vividly as if it was yesterday, she was wearing her blue green sari. She had her hair in just one neat plait at the back.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  And as I said, she's quite small, she's petite. But she stopped and she looked at the boys directly in the eyes and she just asked them that phrase that I've already said, what do you mean by that? Now, at that point, my heart started racing quite fast and I grabbed her arm even tighter and I even whispered to her, you know, come on, ma. And she said no to me and she put the shopping cart up vertical, she put one hand on her hip. And she looked back at them again and she said, what do you mean? And they didn't say anything at all. They just started looking at each other and then she continued to look at them. And when there was just silence, she said, oh, yes, you think you're big, strong boys, big clever boys. And she started telling them off in this broken English.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Until one of the boys looked at the others and said, let's go. And they just dispersed. She grabbed the shopping cart and she started walking really fast through that snicket to get back home. And I was thinking, what just happened? So my mum, my compliant mum, suddenly showed me what it is like to be defiant. It's not a personality, it's the skill set and we can choose to use it. And she chose to use it that day, maybe because I was present. It became clear to me afterwards that she had experienced that situation before, like those boys or people like those boys. She would come home sort of muttering something and I always thought she was annoyed with the shopping cart, but it must have been because of these boys. And what I realised is that compliance.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Might be our default, but it's not our destiny. Anyone can be defined, it's not a character trait. And society is actually built on all of these smaller moments. Because what I hope to provide with the research that I've done and this book is that people get the tools and they start thinking about defiance and compliance in this way, and they start teaching their children defiance skills as well as compliance. Because what I would really love is that we build a society where one of the teens would be what I call a moral maverick and speak up against the peers to tell them to stop, so my immigrant mother wouldn't have to do that.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  And this is what I call the defiance domino effect. Like, one thing, defiance transforms you, but also the people who observe it, it has this ripple effect. And it really affected me that day, and it stayed with me and probably led to the research that I'm doing now.

• 54:02Dan Harris?

  Do you believe that people with, who through no innate merit of their own, people with unearned advantages, I don't want to name any names, but his initials are Dan Harris, people with unearned advantages in society have more obligation to defy than those who have unearned disadvantages, like who have disadvantages through no fault of their own?

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do talk about defiance hierarchy, where some people can defy with far less consequences than other people. And some people are in positions of power where it should be up to them, rather than people who are disadvantaged, to always speak up. And so, there's two things. For example, you mentioned women and girls at the beginning of this, like, do they receive these messages to comply more often? Well, yes, and we see that there are more costs and backlash for being Defiant for certain groups of people than other groups. And not only are there more costs, but some people are expected to be more compliant.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  So that means that they have to defy more often, but there's also more costs of being defiant. And so we really should be aware of that and not expect the people at the bottom of the defiance hierarchy to be making all the change. And so it's up to the people that are expecting the compliance to to really make the culture of it being psychologically safe to defy and actually being defiant and modeling defiance for others.

• 55:45Dan Harris?

  You used a term there that I had written down on my sheet of paper in front of me, my notes for this interview, as the next thing I wanted to talk to you about, psychological safety, which sounds like a kind of bland term, but it really is incredibly important, just as a brief aside. And this, I'm not telling this to you, Cindy, I'm saying it to the audience, because I suspect you already know what I'm about to say. There was this great article written by Charles Duhigg in New York Times Magazine many years ago about a research initiative at Google, I think it was Google. Anyway, some huge multinational corporation, they were trying to figure out like what made for the most successful teams. And they couldn't figure it out. For some extended period of time, they couldn't figure out why some teams performed better than others.

• 56:31Dan Harris?

  Finally, they arrived on this bland term of psychological safety, which means roughly the ability or the freedom or the safety everybody on the team, no matter where they are in the hierarchy, feels to speak up. And so we've been talking a lot in this conversation, pretty much wholly in this conversation, about individuals and when it's safe and wise to defy. But there's also this other side of the coin, which is those with power who are at the top of a hierarchy and can set the culture, the norms for a culture. So I'm thinking about me within my own company.

• 57:13Dan Harris?

  So that people feel safe to defy, which is a kind of enlightened self-interest, because I want people to tell me when I'm being a schmuck so that I can stop being a schmuck, which is bad for business. So what can people like me who have institutional power or power within a family, power at all, to do to create psychological safety? In other words, the conditions in which defiance becomes a safe thing to do?

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think this is a great question is that, yes, there is some self-interest for leaders to do this, because if you do have an organization or a group or a team where it isn't psychologically safe, where people don't feel that they can speak up without being penalized, then you are going to stifle creativity, innovation. You're not going to get told if you're heading off a cliff with a certain service or a product. So you want people to be able to defy and create those types of cultures where you are not going to get the type of turnover, you're not going to have your workforce being fearful, and obviously then all the costs that come with that, so the high overturn,

• 58:22Speaker 01

  burnout, stress, all of those things. So in my research, where I've looked at what I call the voice empathy gap, it's like a difference between how managers and leaders view their organizations versus the employees. So people at the top of the hierarchy will think that they have a more open culture and that it's safe to defy, but the people at the bottom of the hierarchy will not feel the same. There's this gap between what people actually perceive, and that's really important to actually diminish that gap, first of all, because when I have looked at why nurses don't speak up in organizations, they will say that there's two main reasons. One is that it's not safe, you know, they're worried about their job or what people will

• 59:06Speaker 01

  think of them, so it's not psychologically safe. And the other is some people will actually say, well, I'm not afraid to speak up, they're not talking about fear here, but I have spoken it many times before and nothing ever changes. So for a manager or a leader of that, not only do you have to show that it's safe for people to speak up, that they won't be penalized, that you will actually even... Honor that you will reward that type of behavior. You will talk about it with your teams that you want to hear those things. That you will actually act on that too. When somebody does speak up, you won't just say, yes, that's great. And then not do anything about it. So those two things are really essentially important.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  And if you're a middle manager, then you also need to model defiance and show that you're speaking up to your superiors or other stakeholders too. So that modeling aspect is also really powerful for people to see. So make the environment safe by showing that people are not going to be penalized. And and some latest research is looking into these types of meetings where people welcome mistakes that had been made. And if you look at the aspect of psychological safety, you will see that the really great teams actually report more errors and more mistakes, not because they're making more errors and mistakes, it's because it's safe for them to do so. So when you're choosing like which hospital to get your surgery done, it becomes very difficult because if you're just going by error rates, that might not be the best thing.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Because we don't know the rate of what people are reporting those errors or not. So celebrate when people talk about their errors or mistakes, or they actually speak up and prevent those errors and mistakes. And then make it effective that you actually act on the information that's given to you. Or at least you explain why you are not going to act on it. So there's some procedural justice that they're seeing.

• 1:00:57Dan Harris?

  This has been for me like a really humbling process. And I'm going, I haven't like arrived at the end state here, but I've realized in the doing coaching and just growing older that I grew up in a very hierarchical environment, not only in junior high and high school where there was a lot of bullying, but also in the news industry where there was also a lot of bullying. I think it's less true today, but certainly when I was growing up, you had these very famous news anchors, or I guess you would call them news presenters. You know, household names back when television news had a much bigger place in in the popular culture than it does now. Household names and their executives who would, you know, it was really not safe

• 1:01:42Dan Harris?

  to say no. And you would just get told to do a thing. And if you didn't do it, you'd be ostracized. You had to do it, even if it was unsafe or uncomfortable or. Unhealthy or whatever, you just had to fucking do it. It was just that way. And I was carrying that management style into my life, even as a meditation evangelist. And to have it pointed out to me that I was doing that was really uncomfortable. So I've really tried, again, if any of my employees is listening, I'm not saying I'm perfect at this. I'm sure I fuck this up all the time, but I really tried to call out

• 1:02:22Dan Harris?

  in a very positive way when somebody has either publicly or behind the scenes called me on my bullshit. To then go back to a group meeting and say, hey, person X did this thing, it was super brave. I really appreciate it and I just want all of you to know that you will be rewarded for doing this. And I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I'm not catching, so I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but this has been a really useful and painful learning for me. So I said a lot of words there, but I want to stop talking and see if you have anything to add.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's wonderful because we learn from what we see and get trained in. And unfortunately, there are still organizations that have that type of culture. So I've worked in two very hierarchical professions in medicine and academia, both very hierarchical. And even though institutions differ, certainly that kind of compliance is also expected. And when I've also worked in as a management consultant for a while, and even though the one organization I worked with had that very, very strict culture that you're talking about, like you can't question anything, but another was completely different.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  So knowing the type of institution that you're in really affects how you can enact defiance. And having a leader that becomes aware of that and welcomes that type of change that their team speaking up can only have positive effects, I think, because really creativity, you know, really comes from being defiant. And we need more innovation and creativity in all our organizations. And you don't want this type of ethical fading where. The only person you're thinking about is the person that's right in front of you. Because then this is what psychologists call ethical fading is that if somebody in front of us asks us to do something

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  and you don't think it's the right thing to do, but you start thinking about just pleasing them and that becomes the only thing that comes into your decision, like a yes man or a yes person, you know, that pleasing your boss becomes the only thing that becomes important to you. You shrink everything down to that and you can end up doing things that you would have said, this is not me, I wouldn't have done that. Oh, this comes back to, I was just following orders where we know that if we get into that kind of aspect is where can it lead us and history has shown us so many terrible consequences of unexamined compliance that, you know, one of the things that

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  really got me into this work as well was when I was at medical school and I took a year to study psychology and I came across Stanley Milgram's obedience to authority experiments where he had people come in, community members, and they were told they were part of a learning experiment, but they had to administer what they thought were harmful shocks to another person in another room. No actual shock was administered, but somebody was asking them to inflict harm on someone else. Then he found that two thirds of people went all the way to the deadly four hundred and fifty volts. But when you look at it, many of those people showed the sign of tension that we were speaking about, you know, nervous laughter, swearing, sweating.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  It's just that they wanted to defy, but they didn't know how to defy. And giving people the skill set to do that and understand what it like a a culture that welcomes defiance can actually bring is the thing that's going to move us forward because we're at danger of our leaders just complying because they're thinking about the costs and we don't know where that's going to lead us.

• 1:06:08Dan Harris?

  Two questions I usually ask in closing. The first is, is there something you were hoping to talk about that we didn't get to?

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  I would love to talk about one of the psychological processes that I've discovered that I call insinuation anxiety.

• 1:06:22Dan Harris?

  Please.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Because I think it's a distinct type of anxiety that arises when we start worrying that our non-compliance with another person's wishes is going to be interpreted as a signal of distress. It's the fear of implying something negative about someone, especially when they're standing right in front of you. And this can happen in sort of small-stake situations. For example, when you find it difficult to speak up to the massage therapist if they're using too much force. You don't want to insinuate that they don't know what they're doing, or you're in the hairdresser's chair and they're like, "Just you with this new haircut," or "Let me try some purple streaks" or something, and you find it very difficult to say no to them, and maybe almost thank them and give them a tip on the way out.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Two more serious situations. So, insinuation anxiety could explain why nurses don't speak up when they see a colleague or a physician making an error. It could be why co-pilots remain silent and don't say anything to their superiors when they see a mistake. So, we really need to understand that aversive emotional state, that we become so concerned with offending someone right in front of us, that we forget about everything else. You know, there was one situation that I read about in Michelle Lamont's book called "How Professors Behave," that she got out for me to have a look when I told her about insinuation anxiety. And it was about a woman that had gone into this committee.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  She was asked to be part of a committee with four senior men, and they were assessing grants. And when they were evaluating the grants, there's certain criteria, credentials that need to be sort of met for them to allocate a grant. And this woman said when a particular application came up... Of a black man, she said the conversation changed and it seemed steer towards more negative gossip than about the criteria or the credentials. And she, as a black woman, really wanted to speak up and say something, but she didn't. And afterwards, she said, the one thing she wanted to do was the thing she couldn't do. And that was question their integrity. That is classic insinuation anxiety.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  We don't want to imply that someone's can't be trusted, is biased, are incompetent. But at the same time, we then dilute our own integrity to go along with it. Even though that's the thing that we say that we value. So it really is a powerful force and it keeps us compliant and silent in many situations of small stakes and high stakes. But understanding it, naming it, getting some physical or psychological distance helps us manage it.

• 1:09:03Dan Harris?

  So that we can practice anticipating, visualizing, practicing and repeating.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. Like if this particular force like can be present even when all the five elements of consent are present and it still trips us up. What we need to do is be aware of it. This is about the signal that I sent to someone else. And in those situations, if to break that signal is to get some distance from that person. So that's what I also call the power of the pause. It's just taking time out if you can.

• 1:09:35Dan Harris?

  Right, so there are the one way to defy actually might be just to not say anything or to do your best to avoid the problematic person in question.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Well, that is one way to defy, but it's more of a question of if you can get some distance or if you have an opportunity to change your mind is not saying yes straight away. So you might have to give a decision at some point, but it's much easier to do it when you've taken some time. And you can connect with your values and you can understand that you want to say no. So the pressure is greatest when you're there in the moment. And if you can learn some scripts just to get some distance. So if you can get some physical distance, you know, let me get back to you that. That sounds interesting. Let me think about it. That's the best thing. If you can't get physical distance, you can get some psychological distance by speaking to yourself in the third person.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  So maybe you could close your eyes for a few seconds and just speak to yourself in the third person. That gets psychological distance. Sunita, is this what you really want to do? I'll go back to that final question on the defiance compass. What does a person like me do in a situation like this? So getting that distance, either physical or psychological, is the thing that can help you connect with your values and help you decide whether you want to comply or defy.

• 1:10:57Dan Harris?

  Final question for me, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book? And also if you have a website or social media handle or anything else you're making that we should know about?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  So the book is called Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes. It's available at most places that sell books, but you can also go to my website, which is sunitasah.com. That's S U N, like the sun in the sky, S U N I T A S A H dot com. And on that website, there's also a quiz that you can take that will help you find your defiance style. And you'll also find links to my free newsletter called Defy by Design, which is on Substack, and ways to connect with me on social media, LinkedIn and Instagram.

• 1:11:45Dan Harris?

  Excellent. Dr. Sah, thank you very much.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:11:55Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to Dr. Sunita Sah. Check out her book. Also, don't forget to check out danharris.com. We've got a guided meditation that is specifically tailored to this episode, all about helping you tune into your body. So you can figure out, do I want to say yes to this or no? We're now doing guided meditations that come with all of our Monday, Wednesday episodes, only available to paying subscribers over on danharris.com. Our Teacher of the Month is Kyra Duolingo. She's amazing. Also, if you become a paid subscriber, you can get our live video conversations where I guide a meditation and then take your questions. In fact, I've got one coming up tomorrow, August 5th, 2025, at 3:30 Eastern over on Substack or danharris.com.

• 1:12:40Dan Harris?

  It's anonymous, really. I'll see you there. Before I let you go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.