Malcolm McDowell | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with screen icon Malcolm McDowell for a masterclass on craft and legacy—from Lindsay Anderson’s “If” to becoming Stanley Kubrick’s Alex in “A Clockwork Orange”. McDowell shares the real casting story, Kubrick’s process, why “2001” still stuns, and how a single “trance” look became an era-defining image. They dig into Shakespeare and Olivier lore, Eric Burdon, the redemption of “Caligula”, the charm of “Time After Time”, and hard-won wisdom on dodging typecasting and surviving fame. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  I could see him struggling. He didn't really... He was in two minds whether he was gonna tell me. Ah. What the title was. I went, "Well, what is it?" He said, "Clockwork Orange." Somebody asked me how I got to be cast, and I went, "Oh, I think he saw If." Stanley looked at his wife and said, "We found our Alex." Wow. I read it again, and I knew that it was one of the great parts. Mmm. "Let's play the music and I'll see." And it was a sort of... An intentionally... And he was laughing so hard.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  He went, "Oh, that's it. That's it. That's great."

• 1:57Billy Corgan?

  You made the right decision because you're still here.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  I'm reading the New York Times Best and Worst Lists. I have one film on each.

• 2:09Billy Corgan?

  Malcolm McDowell, thank you so much. You honor me by being here. So, uh, I'm gonna go out on a limb, but you tell me if I'm wrong. You've talked about Clockwork Orange about 100 times more than you've ever talked about the movie If. Is that, is that close, or is, you wanna give me a better ratio?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Well, you know, Clockwork is the jewel in the crown, as they say. Um, it's an amazing movie. And yes, I've talked about it ad nauseam. And, um, so what I try and do occasionally now is zen myself back to sort of arriving in the car

• 2:51Speaker 01

  to shoot. And seeing Stanley in his big kind of, um, parka thing. Regardless of the weather, by the way. And then he had a dark blazer, a blue shirt and gray pants. And he wore that for a year. And I said, "Have you got six pairs of everything?"

• 3:14Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  No. I think, I don't know. Maybe he had two, but, uh, he, he considered dress to be of minimal importance. And, um,

• 3:28Billy Corgan?

  But here's a man who would import a, a palm tree from Vietnam or something, you know what I mean?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Well, he put it, you know, he, he was absolutely brilliant on the technical side. Anything technical, Stanley was the man.

• 3:44Billy Corgan?

  You could argue, you could argue the greatest ever on that level.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Without a question. I mean, 2001 is one of the most extraordinary feats of special effects ever. And it took, you know, science, science fiction on a millennium jump.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Before Stanley, there was basically Flash Gordon and cardboard sets.

• 4:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  And Stanley went into the whole philosophical aspect of it. And made it a very, even though it was very antiseptic in many ways, it was also very moving and touching.

• 4:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  In a weird way. Of course, the only person really with any character was, of course, a computer.

• 4:33Billy Corgan?

  Well, we're in that now in our AI world. Yeah, I saw, I saw recently, maybe in the last five years, they did in Hollywood, a 70 millimeter print, a film print, a reissue of 2001.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Stunning. I saw it on 70 mil.

• 4:49Billy Corgan?

  Right. And it was remarkable because a lot of those movies that special effects date pretty bad.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:54Billy Corgan?

  Somehow it held up.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Well, because it wasn't computer generated, it was models.

• 5:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  They were brilliantly done.

• 5:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  And he had the most amazing special effects team. They won the Academy Award, of course. I think Stanley kept it.

• 5:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So let's talk about If, because this is a movie, Dear to My Heart, and it certainly launched you and then sets up the Clockwork Orange, Jewel in the Crown moment.

• 5:28Billy Corgan?

  You're doing Twelfth Night. I saw, I saw where you, you said you were playing the worst character in.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Shakespeare wrote, I say that.

• 5:37Billy Corgan?

  Is that Sebastian?

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Tongue in my cheek. Nah, yes, Sebastian in Twelfth Night.

• 5:41Billy Corgan?

  I was gonna ask you what.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  One great speech.

• 5:44Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  And right after the interval, and you know, when they've just come out of the bar, one great speech to shut them up, and that's it.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  But you know, as a young actor, have never done a film, of course, to work at the Royal Court was really, you know, an achievement because the Royal Court was where, you know, Look Back in Anger started. It's where all the great avant-garde playwrights worked. Joe Alton, for instance.

• 6:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  All of Joe Alton's was done at the Court.

• 6:21Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  And the Court was like the greatest avant-garde theatre and and I wanted desperately to work there. Of course, I get there. And it's not avant-garde at all. It's Shakespeare, the oldest, creepiest old author of all.

• 6:40Billy Corgan?

  But it was the whole thing where they do like a modern version of the?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  It wasn't. It was only modern in the dress.

• 6:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  The text was of course Shakespeare.

• 6:48Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  How do you, just as somebody who's done Shakespeare, how do you feel about when they do these kind of weird adaptations? Are you cool with that? Do you like it or?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  It's okay. I mean, look, there's plenty of room for everything.

• 7:01Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  And we've seen, you know, straight plays, this, that, that everyone's.

• 7:05Billy Corgan?

  But I love Corey, is it Corey Alanis?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:08Billy Corgan?

  I love Corey Alanis.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:10Billy Corgan?

  And there's a cool version like the BBC did that you can find.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  But I think one of the coolest versions, actually Helen did, Helen Mirren did with, may have been Tony Hopkins. I'm not sure about that, but it was a while ago, of course, but.

• 7:26Billy Corgan?

  Are you sure that wasn't when they did Tempest?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I didn't. Cause there's like some weird.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Tony did the Tempest here in LA at the Mark Taper. I saw it.

• 7:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  I went round and he went, oh, Jesus. I knew, I knew some being. I go, what? He goes, oh, darling, I just, I just speeded through the thing. I just gotta get out of here. And he literally did. Speed read it. It was fast. But you know, that's the one way of doing it.

• 7:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, just because this version of Corey Lanis that's out there that I think is the only time it's ever been turned into a film that I know of.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  I've never seen the film.

• 8:06Billy Corgan?

  They do it as like a narco terrorist thing, like

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:09Billy Corgan?

  South American gangs and

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Well, it's like when they did, Ian McKellen did Richard the Third, which was absolutely brilliant, you know. And they did it like the Nazis party.

• 8:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I've never seen that.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  In Germany.

• 8:23Billy Corgan?

  Was it a play or was it a

• 8:24Speaker 01

  It is amazing with one of the great performances from

• 8:28Billy Corgan?

  But is it a play or a movie?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  It was a play.

• 8:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  And they made a movie of it.

• 8:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  And it's amazing. It's really

• 8:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh, fantastic.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  One of the greatest Shakespeare movies you'll ever see.

• 8:39Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  And is it as good as Olivier's? No. Nothing is as good as that.

• 8:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  By the way, a story

• 8:48Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  About that because it's kind of fun.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  This was told by John Mills, who was a great friend of Larry. We'll call him Larry Olivier. And he was opening first time in Richard the Third. And John Mills was organizing the party afterwards.

• 9:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  After the first night. And, oh, this is the first performance. Anyway.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  So John Mills thought, I'll pop in and see, sir, you know, before just make sure everything's okay. We're okay for the party. He goes in there, Olivier's like this.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  In front of the mirror. And he sees him and he goes, oh, darling, Jesus Christ, don't cancel the party. The party's off. I haven't got a clue how to play this part. This director's useless. And he's going into this whole thing. And of course, John Mills, it's a little first night thing or whatever. Okay, don't worry. Okay, we'll cancel. Well, don't worry, you'll feel better. Don't, don't even worry about it, you know. John Mills said. He went out to watch the performance. This was Laurence Olivier. Spontaneously finding the character of Richard the Third as you watched it.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  You will never, ever see that ever again because it happens in rehearsal.

• 10:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  You never see it, not when it's found.

• 10:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  And he said it was one of the most brilliant things that he'd ever seen.

• 10:26Billy Corgan?

  Do you know what he was struggling with?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  God knows.

• 10:29Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay, yeah.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  But, you know, he had, you know, he had great times when he just blocked, you know. I mean, this is well known.

• 10:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  And I understand that. I used to think there but for the grace of God go I. Because it happened to another brilliant actor who I really liked very much. I was very fond of him. We were sort of friends, Ian Holm.

• 10:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Ian Holm was the best Henry the Fifth I ever saw. I was in it, moving furniture and had two lines. And, and I used to watch him every performance from the wings. I'd watch Ian when he did the wooing scene with the princess of princesses of France. And the this, all the great scenes. And I just thought, wow, this, it's one of the great performances. It's funny, so I haven't seen him for many, a long time. And I was walking down Notting Hill Gate.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  And I bumped into him and I went, Ian, oh, my God. And, and he'd known that I'd done if, you know, I was playing tiny parts the last time. So he goes, hey, oh, Malcolm, God, it's, it's, it's great to see you. So, hey, you know, well done on everything. And what are you working on? I went, oh, I'm going, doing this thing for this guy called Stanley Kubrick. And he goes, and I saw him recoil. And I said, what's up? Did I say something? He goes, no, just be careful of him. I went, oh, why, may I ask? He said, well, that.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Strung me along to do Napoleon for eighteen months. And he goes, after eighteen months, we were supposed to go and do and start and I'd had all the fittings and all this and all that. He goes, and suddenly, not a call. Uh. I tried to call him many times. The phone was always dead. He said he didn't even have the wherewithal to pick up the phone and say, I'm sorry, I couldn't get the dough. We've had to postpone. And he just cut him off.

• 13:00Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  And of course, having worked with him, I totally understand.

• 13:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, the kids call these these days ghosted. He got ghosted.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Oh, is that it?

• 13:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, they call it ghosted. It's like when people suddenly don't return your texts anymore.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 13:15Billy Corgan?

  This is very modern with the.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Well, I've heard I've heard it, but I never knew where it was.

• 13:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it means it means you don't exist anymore.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 13:21Billy Corgan?

  In the digital world, sense of the word.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Wow, do people do that?

• 13:25Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. They do it to me.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Oh, well.

• 13:28Billy Corgan?

  How dare they?

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Why would they do it to you?

• 13:30Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I'm sure they I'm sure they have good reasons. I mean, people are people are cruel these days in a in a in a new way.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Well, people have always been cruel, let's face it.

• 13:40Billy Corgan?

  But if but I said in a new way, this is what I'm saying. They found they found a new way to be cruel.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Ah, okay.

• 13:46Billy Corgan?

  You see, when you have.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  No, I get it.

• 13:48Billy Corgan?

  When you have an instant, constant attention thing with the phone, when it goes cold, it's like it's almost unfathomable that.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  You mean when there's no colds coming in?

• 13:59Billy Corgan?

  We grew up in a time when, you know, if you couldn't get to the payphone, well, you just dealt with it, you know, or you get the payphone would be dead or something. You'd have to wait till you got home to call somebody. We we got used to those lapses of time.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:11Billy Corgan?

  In the modern era, a minute is a long time if somebody doesn't respond.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Really, I did respond.

• 14:18Billy Corgan?

  What's your?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Right away. I mean, if somebody texts me, I'll look at it and chew it over. I don't even respond immediately. And I, I remember one guy sent me this whole thing about something he'd seen that I'd done. And he went into this whole diatribe of why he thought it was great, what I did and what I, which was news to me.

• 14:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Because I just did it, right? I wasn't trying to break it down. I just did it. And so at the end of it, I just sent him a thumbs up.

• 14:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  And sent it back.

• 14:53Billy Corgan?

  And he was probably disappointed.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  That's all I get? And I thought, well, yeah.

• 14:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  That's all you get. I didn't ask for your comments.

• 15:02Billy Corgan?

  I once wrote Eric Burden of The Animals a long letter.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  He's my dearest friend.

• 15:07Billy Corgan?

  Had no idea. So you'll, hopefully you'll.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  I saw him last night.

• 15:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God bless him. I wrote him this long thing. I made sure it got to him through somebody. It was probably an email, but I wrote him a long letter.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:18Billy Corgan?

  Of appreciation. As a, as a fellow musician.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:22Billy Corgan?

  I've also covered one of his songs and first song I ever learned how to play on guitar was House of the Rising Sun, because I love The Animals version. And so I, I'm, I think.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  The greatest.

• 15:31Billy Corgan?

  He's one of the.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  His voice.

• 15:33Billy Corgan?

  He's one of the most, he's one of the most underappreciated.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:36Billy Corgan?

  Musical artists ever.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:38Billy Corgan?

  His influence in putting people together and all of it, including working with War and Jimmy and all things. So I wrote him this long, loving thing, which was like, I just want to let you know as a fellow musician and here, who's, here's who I am. And, and I assume he, because I'd covered his music, he had some sense of who I was. And all I got back was, wow, man.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Well.

• 16:01Billy Corgan?

  But again, but I'd be saying.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Did you go, oh, that's a bit.

• 16:05Billy Corgan?

  It was a bit much, but.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  But from him, a wow, man. Knowing him, wow, man, that was.

• 16:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like something out of San Francisco's mess. Wow, man.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 16:17Billy Corgan?

  So I, I stayed on depositing with it. Wow, man.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Well, um.

• 16:21Billy Corgan?

  But please send, please send in my regards.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  How nice we had fun and.

• 16:25Billy Corgan?

  I hope so.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  But I can tell you from him, um. He'll give you a bit more than a Wow Man.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  I would love it. Love to have him sit here and talk to him privately. I just think he's one of the most underappreciated musicians of all time, at least in our, in our modern times.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  He was John Lennon's favorite singer. I can see why.

• 16:46Billy Corgan?

  Wonder why?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  And he's the Eggman, you know that?

• 16:49Billy Corgan?

  I did not know that. I thought I knew all my Beatles lore.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:53Billy Corgan?

  Let's get back to you for a second.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 16:58Billy Corgan?

  Because I think, obviously, most people run to the brightest side of the room, which is Clockwork Orange, and it's easy to talk about it.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Well, we were talking about If.

• 17:08Billy Corgan?

  If, that's why I'm saying I want to talk about If, because I think If is just as important, because it's one of those seminal sort of moments in time that like sort of unleashes the energy that sets up all these other things.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:20Billy Corgan?

  And of course, and if you tell me because you were there, Kubrick sees you in If and basically, he's like, there it is. And he just basically transplants that you and that guy into the.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  And a lot of the film, by the way, was definitely inspired by Lindsay Anderson's If.

• 17:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay, start here. How did Lindsey feel about that interpolation?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll tell you what happened. He, he saw it in New York because he was there getting the money for Oh Lucky Man.

• 17:52Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  And so of course, a lot of talk about Clockwork Orange, and Lindsey had heard a lot about it. And he'd also given me the key to playing the part, but that's another story. But so, I got a telegram which said, Dear Malk, saw clockwork, not my cup of tea,

• 18:18Speaker 01

  but you were brilliant.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Now, I knew that, of course, he could never say another director was brilliant.

• 18:28Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  It would have been like pulling teeth. Also, they were so different in human terms that Lindsay was, you know, a people person. He was, he loved artists, he loved actors. He actually loved actors. A director that loved actors is a rare thing indeed. And, and sits with them and talks to them and cajole them.

• 18:52Billy Corgan?

  Did you, I mean, I, I saw the, the thing that you did. I don't know how to quantify it. I mean, it was a documentary, but it was also kind of a one man show talking about your relationship.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  It was my love letter to him.

• 19:03Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful, fantastic. I mean, I wish somebody would do that for me some days.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:07Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Well, somebody said, why didn't you do it for Stanley? And I said, because there's nothing there, really. There's nothing poetic about Stanley.

• 19:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  I mean, yes, he's a genius if you want to talk about, you know, lighting and microphones and all that. But on the human side, to play, that would only last 20 minutes.

• 19:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So that's, that's kind of why I wanted to talk about If, because If is the key to, to this. I don't, I, I'm not a filmmaker, but to me, If provided Stanley Kubrick with the key of what he needed to make Clockwork Orange. Why it was so successful.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Well, after he passed away,

• 19:55Speaker 01

  I was asked to go with Christiana, his widow, to Australia to open this museum event of Kubrick's movies and life.

• 20:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  And I said, I'd be happy to do that, of course I'll go. And we went out together and I saw a lot of her for the week that we were there. And I was doing, you know, Q and A things and I didn't really, somebody asked me how I got to be cast. And I went, oh, I think he saw If. That was all I knew. And so Christiana said, oh, Malcolm, no. What happened was, the film was the red hot thing in London. Everybody was talking about If.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And Stanley had a projectionist on 24/7 standby, got Paramount to bring out the reels of film to watch it. And they were all there watching it at the house. She goes, "You made your first entrance." Stanley hit the intercom and said, "Relase that." And do, "Let's see that again." Four times. After the fourth time, and I'm shaving my mustache off when I've grown it in the holidays and are back to college school, this oppression, this...

• 21:23Speaker 01

  And Stanley looked at his wife and said, "We found our Alex."

• 21:32Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. She told me. And I was, I was quite moved, actually. It was like, and of course, an actor would never know that. You know, so all I got was, "This director wants to meet you." And I went, "Well, I'm shooting." He goes, "Yeah, you can go in your lunch hour." I went, "Oh, well, luckily, the film I was shooting was in Elstree and he lived next, he lived there, Boreham Wood, which is quite a way outside London, on North London." And so I went to see him in my lunch hour and he took me into a small, little study that had a TV and a sofa, and that was about it.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And we chatted. And I thought, "Wow, what an interesting guy." You know, he had these amazingly black, intelligent eyes that were kind of mesmerizing, actually. And I told him, you know, I'm doing this film with Brian Forbes and blah, blah, blah. He goes, "Oh, yes, I know Brian." I went, "Yeah, he's a very nice guy and we're having fun." And so I went, and, oh, Stanley, I have actually got to be back because I'm first up after lunch.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  And I stood up and he just looked at me. And I said, was there anything special that you wanted to see me about? And he said, well, yeah, um. Have you heard of this book? I went, which book? And it was, I could see him struggling. He didn't really, it was in two minds whether he was gonna tell me. What the title was, I went, well, what is it? He said, Clockwork Orange. I went, doesn't ring a bell. He went, really? Well, it's a real cult thing. I went, well, I don't know, it's not my cult, then, I don't know, I've never heard of. He goes, well, um, he goes, look, here's the book.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I want you to read it and call me.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  I went, okay, okay, uh, will do. You know, I'm shooting a film, right? He goes, yeah, okay. So I went, thank you very much, and nice to see you, ba ba ba. So I go back, of course, I have to, I can't read it right away, I'm learning lines and stuff. So then I start on it and thought, God, this is a tough read. What does all this mean? And I'm looking at the back and the glossary and, you know.

• 24:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Anyway, I struggled through the first read. And I thought, God, there's no way you can make a film. Then I better read it again. Now, the next time was a lot easier. And I thought to myself, oh, God, this is, this is extraordinary. And I, and I thought, I better read it one more time because he's gonna grill me or something. I read it again. And I, and I knew that it was one of the great parts.

• 24:37Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  So I picked up the phone. Now, a week had gone by.

• 24:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  I said, Stanley, he went, yes, I said, it's Malcolm. Yeah, um, look, I've read the book. He went, oh, I thought you would have called days ago. And I said, yes, no, no, no, it's, it's, it's just, I wanted to really read it very thoroughly and I read it three times. He went, oh, oh, what do you think? I went, well, I think it's remarkable. And now having heard this story from Ian Holm.

• 25:11Billy Corgan?

  Right. So you knew this then.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  I said, so Stanley, are you offering me the part? And he

• 25:22Billy Corgan?

  Did you know it was the part, meaning like?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  There's only one part.

• 25:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I'm just saying that you felt that, yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  I said, are you offering me the part? There was silence.

• 25:34Billy Corgan?

  It's funny because, sorry to interrupt, but

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:36Billy Corgan?

  It's almost funny because like the way you're portraying, it's almost like a scene from the movie.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:41Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Well, life.

• 25:43Billy Corgan?

  Imitates art, yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So, um,

• 25:48Speaker 01

  he, there was silence. And I thought, well, I'm gonna wait this one out. And he said, yes.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  That low. Yeah. And when I got to know him, I realized that that, for him to say that, was pulling teeth.

• 26:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  He would never say you've got the part, because he'd be terrified I'd use it against him in, in the, in the

• 26:20Billy Corgan?

  Negotiation.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:21Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it a control freak?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  I was a naive kid. I did it for, and then he goes, I, I'm, he called me. I said, yes, I'll do it, but I want to meet you. Well, you'll have to come to my house. Not knowing, the guy never leaves his house. I had no idea. So I lived in Kensington, Notting Hill, Kensington.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  At the end of a cul-de-sac. And by the time he's supposed to be there, I'm looking out of my window up the street, because I was at the very end. I see a Mercedes followed by a range, a Land Rover, a white Land Rover. It's the one they used in the thing where the police are in it. That one drive up.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  And I see this guy get out. And they they're looking around, I opened the door and I went, are you looking for me?

• 27:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I went Stanley?

• 27:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  He went, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He comes into my, I had this incredible space. He looks at it and he goes, um, wow, we could use the cat lady here. We could shoot it. I went, nah, not in my house. The first thing he said.

• 27:32Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, anyway, then we talked about it a little bit, I guess, and, and, um, that's how it all started. The journey. And he did, the, the journey with Stanley was, he did all the directing of me before we ever turned the camera.

• 27:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  He got to know me, my sense of humor, my sensibilities before we started shooting.

• 28:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  And then when we started shooting, I remember I said, how, what do you want me to do? I mean, we've talked about this, we've talked about that, everything else, you know, where you're gonna get these lights from, from Germany? And where you're gonna get this? I said, but I'm playing the guy. I, I.

• 28:21Billy Corgan?

  I need more information.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Who is this guy? He goes, that's why I hired you and walked off.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  I remember saying to him once, I know why you love Peter Sellers so much. Cause he'd just do four or five different little things and you, and he'd go, pick one.

• 28:43Billy Corgan?

  Pick one, yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:45Billy Corgan?

  Um, I saw a reference and I think it was in your, in your love letter to, to Lindsay. This idea of the surrealist, the dadaist and the influence, did, was that coming from you or did I read that somewhere? But it was, it's the idea that there was this movement afoot of cultural subversion and, and obviously that flows in the clockwork. But going back to if for a second, were you aware of this kind of movement around you?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  No. You know, really, I'm just a very instinctive kind of actor, was not trained. I didn't go to RADA. Oh, I went in for this funny little things at Lambda, but I never actually had a teacher. Except this old lady in Liverpool, who's very charming, but I went to her simply to listen to her talk about her experiences as a silent movie star.

• 29:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Do you remember who it was?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yes, Mrs. Harold Ackley.

• 29:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  She had a studio in the Crane Building. Way later, thirty years later, I found myself, maybe twenty years. I found myself at a dinner party, sitting next to Rita Tushingham, who I adored. And she was a big star, you know, she'd done The Taste of Honey, and she was the, what they call at the forefront of the kitchen sink movies in England in the sixties. And she was fantastic. She did, Sheila Delaney was the writer, really amazing writer. Anyway, I was talking to Rita, and we were talking, and I said, oh, I suppose you went to

• 30:30Speaker 01

  one of those posh, you know, acting academies or something. And she went, well, if you call Mrs. Ackley. I went, what? You went to Mrs. Harold Ackley? She went, yes, you too. I went, oh, my God, I've never known anyone else go to. So we were sort of jumping up and down laughing because, of course, she didn't know, she didn't know coaching at all, except she'd say, when you sit down, Malcolm, you know, in the second act, you'll be sitting on the sofa, having a cup of tea, make sure the pinky is up. And I go, thank you so much. I'll make sure the pinky is up.

• 31:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. The reason I was poking around about the, your awareness of the influence of, you know, the Stadaism or Surrealism in the filmmaking of the time, and obviously was in counterculture with music as well.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:25Billy Corgan?

  Is. You know, the times oftentimes pick people in my parlance out of a lineup. And I feel like the times picked you because you were the perfect embodiment of something that they were unconsciously looking for.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:43Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  I know just the look, my physical look was kind of exactly what they were waiting for. Did I feel it? No. I mean, you don't feel your face.

• 31:59Billy Corgan?

  But I think it goes beyond that. I think it goes into your, I mean, it's always hard because actors are really skilled at convincing us of something that's not real, right? That's why they're actors.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 32:09Billy Corgan?

  But with you, there was always a sense, and I have a very strong memory of seeing you in Clockwork Orange when I was 10 years old. You felt like that guy.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:20Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying to me, watching.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  To you?

• 32:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  But I was acting that guy.

• 32:24Billy Corgan?

  Right. What I'm saying is.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Of course, I loved that guy. I mean, I absolutely adored and loved Alex without a question. And I wanted to make sure that the audience loved him.

• 32:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And that's why the sort of liberal press kind of attacked Stanley. Well, the New York Times had this huge piece calling him a fascist.

• 32:55Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Because he'd made this immoral man into somebody that will.

• 33:00Billy Corgan?

  That immoral man was you.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 33:03Billy Corgan?

  Just to illustrate the point slightly differently.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:06Billy Corgan?

  It's like, let's talk music for a second. Back to Eric Burden. Okay, to me, as a musician.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Billy Corgan?

  Eric Burden is the real deal.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Totally and utterly.

• 33:17Billy Corgan?

  He is the real deal.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:19Billy Corgan?

  Like.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:20Billy Corgan?

  Up out of the street and he is the real deal.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:24Billy Corgan?

  He may not be the prettiest.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  He's been playing those clubs in Newcastle when he was 14.

• 33:31Billy Corgan?

  Right. Okay, now, John Lennon, okay?

• 33:37Billy Corgan?

  Talented in a completely different set of ways is becomes a sort of a form of avatar. He sort of represents something of the age.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 33:46Billy Corgan?

  But he's also, he's also talented enough to kind of go, oh, you want me to be this guy? Or you want, and, and that's why the Beatles and him in particular morph so quickly over five, six years.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:56Billy Corgan?

  The beards and the thing, and it's like, who are you?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:59Billy Corgan?

  Eric Burden can't not, not be Eric Burden.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:02Billy Corgan?

  John Lennon, with, we, when we think of John Lennon, it's really a composite of about 15 different John Lannons.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:09Billy Corgan?

  And that's not to take anything away from John Lennon. You have to be very skilled.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  John, John was.

• 34:15Billy Corgan?

  But, but that's.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Genius of the age, you know, I mean.

• 34:17Billy Corgan?

  What I'm saying is that I feel like, and I wasn't there, I was born in a sixties.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  I was there, I saw them as the Silver Beatles. You know that, right?

• 34:26Billy Corgan?

  I did not know that.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 34:28Billy Corgan?

  Tell me.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Well.

• 34:29Billy Corgan?

  I, I love me Beatles.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  You do? Well, I'm from Liverpool, so.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  I used to go to this club, um, called The Gaslight. And then the, you know, there was a few, the Pink Ellie, The Gaslight, De Gas, as we called it.

• 34:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  De Gas, you going to De Gas tonight? Yeah, okay, well, I'm going to the cavern. Who's on? Oh, it's the Silver Beatles. Oh, okay.

• 34:54Billy Corgan?

  So you saw them with Pete Best then?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't know that.

• 34:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  You know, what, but so I had a girlfriend actually who took me because she said, this band are great. I went, okay.

• 35:05Billy Corgan?

  Did you think they were great when you saw them?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:09Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Did I think they were gonna be the next, the greatest thing since Mozart? No, of course not.

• 35:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Did I like them? They was very together for, I mean, for a little band.

• 35:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  You know, in a tiny, I mean, the cavern was tiny.

• 35:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  I mean, and, and you know, all that.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  The walls sweating and.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yes, and you'd stomp, as the Liverpool stomp was, you'd hop from one foot to the other. That was the dance because there was no other room for anything else. But they did Chuck Berry and they, and in the Liverpool way. You know, they were amazing, the energy, the, um, and you know, and you were drawn. I mean, the, the stage was only this high.

• 35:54Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  So it was like at the end and the, you were drawn, I was drawn to John. Because he had a kind of dangerous curve of the lip.

• 36:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  He was dangerous.

• 36:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Paul was beautiful and exquisite.

• 36:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So to go back to my relentless analogy.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:18Billy Corgan?

  You represented somehow on film that danger.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:22Billy Corgan?

  So as someone who stood in a very rare moment of white hot zeitgeist.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, hey, how lucky was I?

• 36:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Did you feel pressure to become more of that? Did it become a typecasting thing?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  No, I, well, I, I refused to be typecast as much as I could be.

• 36:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  You know, I can't tell you how many knockoffs of Clockwork Orange I was offered in the next five years.

• 36:55Billy Corgan?

  I can only imagine.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  But I just went, no, no, no, it's over.

• 37:00Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, please finish.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  No, that's it.

• 37:02Billy Corgan?

  Had you written Oh Lucky Man before Clockwork Orange became a hit?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  It was going on during the shooting of Clockwork.

• 37:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  And we'd go round to see Lindsay, you know, and, you know, and,

• 37:19Speaker 01

  and the only reason that I started writing this thing was because I just wanted to get to work with Lindsay Anderson again, who I considered to be, you know, just absolutely a genius. I mean, not that I knew any geniuses, you know, but I'd worked with Peter Hall at the Royal Shakespeare Company and all those guys, but they weren't the real deal. They weren't. They were posers. Lindsay Anderson, this Oxford educated man, who was, he was a very great man. It was like working for an Oxford don.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  And he would be so honest and so interesting.

• 38:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  In the talks one had and about it and, you know, and he cajolled, I suppose, without me knowing it. And he'd say things like, crazy things, like, he'd go, of course, Malcolm, you know, you're a very Brechtian actor.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  And I'd say, oh, yes, well, I've been known, of course, I'm known as the Brechtian actor.

• 38:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  I go, and what does that mean? He goes, well, it means that you will let the audience know that you're acting. But they'll, you're gonna make them believe you anyway.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  And I thought, wow, what a thing to say.

• 38:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so back to me at 10 years old, watching Clockwork Orange somewhere. There was a sort of connectivity there that's rare.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:02Billy Corgan?

  In my mind, I usually connect it more to music because music is so rooted in authenticity or the appearance of authenticity.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:09Billy Corgan?

  Where in Clockwork Orange, it's this completely, it's so out, out, out there. But somehow you represented something that felt kind of pure in the center of.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Well, it's really what, because you know, he'd put the film to the, to the side. He couldn't find anyone to play the part. So Stanley had discarded it.

• 39:29Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  And that's why he went on to Napoleon, by the way.

• 39:32Billy Corgan?

  The famous movie he never made.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  The famous movie he never made, yeah. And, um, so interesting, um, yeah, that, um,

• 39:44Speaker 01

  well, you know, if to me was,

• 39:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I just, you know, I was just playing small parts, went to meet this great man and, um, we got on very well because,

• 39:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  there was no bull from me, I'm from the north of England, fairly plain speaker. And I like to just say what's on my mind, you know, without being rude, of course. And, and we gelled.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  But of course, it's a long way from getting the part, you know?

• 40:18Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  And, um, I don't, you know what happened because you saw my one man show, so.

• 40:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I'm curious.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  There was electricity in the air, put it that way.

• 40:31Billy Corgan?

  Do you, do you think Lindsay saw that zeitgeist in you? And I'm not trying to oversell it, you know, I'm saying is like certain people.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  No, he did.

• 40:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay, great. Please, please eliminate that.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Because, because, you know, it came out later that he'd 98% cast that part to somebody else.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  And when I came in, it was sort of end of the kind of, they were packing up for lunch, actually. And he went, oh, and I was late. I got there and I said, I'm sorry, I'm late, bye bye. He went, oh, okay, it's okay. I'll be happy to meet him, you know. And he jumped up on the stage and it was, and we had this chat. And he said, do you want to read it? I went, I'm so, I'll be honest, I'm so bad at auditions. He goes, ah, yes, well, you've got to work on that. I went, I know, I know, I do. You're right, because that's the first thing. Without a good audition, you're dead in the water.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  You don't get cast. He goes, that's right, yeah. So, um, yeah, he was wonderful, but, so I'll tell you, because it's an interesting, that I didn't really have confidence in myself to know how to play Alex right from the first go. I've been, you know, been working with Kubrick for, I think, six, at least six months.

• 42:05Billy Corgan?

  Really? And you still didn't know?

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, six months. And I, I thought I knew, but when it was only a week to go and then four days, I suddenly went, well, you haven't got a thing in your locker. What the hell are you gonna do? So I called Lindsay and said, Lindsay, I hate to do this to you. I know, you know, because Lindsay had, he'd poo-pooed Kubrick and, you know, and American cinema, blah, blah. And of course...

• 42:42Speaker 01

  I was playing them both off a little bit, a little bit, saying, well, you know, Stanley would never do that. And he'd say, oh, yes, of course, Stanley, Stanley, sure. And then I'd say, Stanley, you know, Lindsay, um, you know, he went to Oxford, of course, you know, that Stanley. And he goes, oh, oh, really? Oh, yeah. What did he study? Oh, I think, you know, the classics. Oh, oh, which is true, he did. Um, yeah, he'd give me a whole lesson on Greek theater. Hmm. You know, the theater comes from the Greeks, Malcolm, don't you? That is where drama started. And I went, I thought it was the Egyptians.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  No, the Greeks. Yeah. Anyway, um, so I asked him if he would read the script. He said, bring it over. And I had to go over to his flat. Given the script, I went out while he was reading it and had a coffee, came back. And the first thing he said was, well, thank God, I don't have to direct this. I mean, I know it's not your kind of thing, but look, I just, I don't know what to do with this character. And he said, look, Malcolm,

• 44:00Speaker 01

  the scene in If where you open the doors to be beaten in the gymnasium when you're going in to meet the prefects, he goes, you look at them, and you smile. He goes, that's how you play it. And I went, oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 44:21Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful piece of advice.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  What an incredible piece of direction. What an extraordinary piece of direction. Because that's all it took. Boom. First day, sail through, even though it was rather painful, there's certain things happen. Boom. On the second day, I forgot all about it. I couldn't remember. And I didn't remember this until a year went by.

• 44:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  And I went, no, wait a minute, it was Lindsay.

• 44:51Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  So you would have loved him, actually.

• 44:56Billy Corgan?

  Lindsay.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. You would, and so entertaining, you know, I had to do these talk shows and everything after the movie came out.

• 45:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Usually with him, and I'd sit there like an idiot, just listening, because he was so entertaining.

• 45:14Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  I mean, it was just, I've done that a couple of times. The other one who was so entertaining, I would never interrupt him, was Anthony Burgess.

• 45:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Who was brilliant and funny, hilarious.

• 45:29Billy Corgan?

  But it's still, at the end of the day, it took you to kind of bring those people together.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Well.

• 45:37Billy Corgan?

  I guess what I'm after, it's a slightly.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, what are you after, Billy? Because you've gone around the bush here a bit, and I want to know what the hell you're talking about.

• 45:47Billy Corgan?

  The image of, the poster image of Clockwork Orange.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:51Billy Corgan?

  You know, the famous image of you.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:53Billy Corgan?

  Right. There are, there are few symbols per generation that sort of make the cut.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:01Billy Corgan?

  And that's one of them.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:04Billy Corgan?

  And, and, you know, and I think what makes it interesting, and maybe I'm speaking as an alternative artist, because alternative artists have to kind of figure out how to go around the system that exists.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:15Billy Corgan?

  You know, and maybe it's particularly American, you know, we don't have a, we have traditions, but they tend to be, they tend to exclude people like me.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Let me just tell you very simply what that was.

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay, please.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  So there was a scene, when I come back and turn lovely, lovely Ludwig Van on with a tiny little cassette, and it booms, and you know, Alex in his room has got these great speakers, and you hear, and I'm taking my boots off, and suddenly the camera comes into this, and I went, he went, make some, what are you gonna do? And I went, I don't know, let's play the music and I'll see. And it was a sort of.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  An intensely like a possession. I don't know what it was. And he, he was laughing so hard. He went, oh, that had, that's it. That's it. That's great. Your eyes went, I went, what? I, did he? I, I, so when we come, came to do the very first shot of the movie, which was a track with, um, uh, what's her name lens? Um, a zoom lens. So it was tracking and zooming. So it started here.

• 47:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  And went back. And when it was there, uh, because I've been drinking milk that was doped. I went into.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Oh, I see. The, the trance. Alex's little trance, I called it. And it became the look. And then I heard, you know, Jack did it in The Shining. It's absolutely bull, by the way, that not what Jack did.

• 48:07Billy Corgan?

  Never heard that story, but.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  No, well, oh, that's the Kubrick like thing.

• 48:12Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see, I see.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  But, but it's not, it's not. It's just, uh, maybe there was a shot of him looking crazed and it was similar, but it's nothing to do with it.

• 48:22Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  And, um, so the whole of the end, you know, when he's possessed with the music, it's the music, the music.

• 48:32Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  That's what it's all about.

• 48:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  And here's the great dichotomy is you've got this thug who loves classical music.

• 48:42Billy Corgan?

  Well, I always say, my joke I always make is Hitler loved dogs.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he wasn't quite as bad as Hitler.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  But he did love dogs. You're right. But did dogs love him?

• 48:58Billy Corgan?

  I just, the reason I harp on about it is,

• 49:03Billy Corgan?

  if you go across the annals of, say, the 20th century, and now we're in the 21st, there are so few people who stand at a unique crossing of history between cultural, the cultural moment and the, and the social moment.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:20Billy Corgan?

  And you became the face in this one particular moment, but it's so rare that it lines up like that.

• 49:28Billy Corgan?

  So in my, in my mind.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:31Billy Corgan?

  And it's just my own little movie that I play. There's Clockwork Orange playing on a screen somewhere, and I can see The Beatles sitting there, and John Lennon going, "I want some of that."

• 49:41Billy Corgan?

  John Bottom, the great drummer Led Zeppelin, decided he was gonna dress like a droog, you know, I mean?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  So did, uh, so did, um, Davy Jones. David Bowie was, you know, Ziggy and all that.

• 49:53Billy Corgan?

  Right, so I'm saying it all flows from this singular moment. We have the, we have the luxury of looking back and saying, like, I was trying to explain to my son, who's nine years old.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:03Billy Corgan?

  About, uh, Duchamp and the, and the urinal.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:08Billy Corgan?

  Is it Duchamp, or I can't, you know, with the famous way, it's just the urinal.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:14Billy Corgan?

  Somebody probably crucified me if it's not Duchamp. But my son was like, "Why would, why would a urinal be art?" And I go, "But that was the point."

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 50:24Billy Corgan?

  He, he broke something you can never unbreak it.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 50:29Billy Corgan?

  When the, when the.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  So you're right, so.

• 50:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay, thank you.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  It is lightning in a bottle. It was the physical look, the, um,

• 50:40Speaker 01

  psychological, psychological attitude, all came together with these extraordinary roles of absolute defiance.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Mick was a

• 50:57Speaker 01

  pure revolutionary, a pure revolutionary. Nothing to do with Alex at all. Mick, you know, he was actually Lindsay. He wanted to tear it down, and I said...

• 51:12Billy Corgan?

  So you finally put, that's what I was trying to get put together. Because Lindsay voicing through you, his interest in you, and he saw something in you, voices into this other, you know, zip code with Kubrick and the insanity of Burgess's book. And it's this weird lightning in a bottle. And we can hold it up like a chrysalis and go, oh, my God, like, so much came from this thing. But what fascinates me even more is you're the living representative, representation of that moment. And I think the reason it resonates still, especially to artists like myself, is there's something in you that I understand. I don't know you, but that's kind of what I'm after. Where does the...

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I'm sure it is. I'm sure you do.

• 51:57Billy Corgan?

  Right. Where does the acting end and the sort of this pure spirit begin?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Well, you embody it.

• 52:02Billy Corgan?

  That's my point. That's why I belabor it.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  It's not acted, although of course it is. As Lindsay said, you tell them you're acting, but you'll make them believe you anyway.

• 52:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  But when you're doing it, at least when I'm doing it, it's cooking, you know. I'll tell you, you know, time stands still and you are so in it.

• 52:31Billy Corgan?

  Can I share something personal?

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  I had at least one of those moments in my life when we had our biggest album.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:40Billy Corgan?

  And so that was 30 years ago, literally now.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:43Billy Corgan?

  And I'm not saying you've experienced this, but because so many people continue to be interested in the zeitgeist of that moment, I find myself sitting around going, what was I thinking? And the answer is, I wasn't thinking anything at all.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 52:57Billy Corgan?

  It was no different than any other day.

• 53:01Billy Corgan?

  So that's where it's complicated because people like me want to ask people like you, what were you thinking? You're like, I don't know. I was just.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  There's no thinking. I mean, it was, we get to work. First thing is, I gotta have a tea. Is there any tea?

• 53:15Billy Corgan?

  Before I do this unmitigated violence.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  And then we're gonna do, what is the scene? Oh, it's me arriving at the jail. Okay.

• 53:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Okay, well. He goes, well, it's not written. Oh.

• 53:31Billy Corgan?

  Oh, it's not written. So he was doing it on the fly.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  So, um, well, there's a guy here who's been to jail. Oh, okay. Hi. Nice to meet you. You're out on parole or what's going on? Yeah, no, you're okay. It was a while. Um, so we've got a white line here and they're really, uh, by the way, and we also have a genius actor, Michael Bates, who was the prison guard. I mean, he was absolutely a Joe Orton actor, if ever there was one. I, I thought he was fantastic.

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  And by the way, Joe Orton, he, his, the flavor of Joe Orton is over these things. And I didn't even know Joe Orton.

• 54:15Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  I hadn't, I hadn't even read, um, Entertaining Mr. Sloan, or Loot, or What the Butler Saw. I had no idea. But I feel more in tune with him.

• 54:31Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  About my work to his work than anybody else. Including Jimmy Cagney. Who I worship, who I adore.

• 54:42Billy Corgan?

  I just bought, I collect some movie memorabilia. I just bought a late 30s, early 40s Cagney, where they would just make a, a thing of the star for a poster that they could put in a theater.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, uh, one sheet?

• 54:57Billy Corgan?

  A one sheet, yellow with Cagney.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Which, uh, oh.

• 55:01Billy Corgan?

  It's just, it's just, it's just a personality one.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 55:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just, I just bought it.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Yeah.

• 55:07Billy Corgan?

  I always love how, uh, Orson Welles would say Cagney's the best film actor of all time.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  I think Spielberg said that.

• 55:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, he probably stole it from Orson.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 55:18Billy Corgan?

  We'll get to Orson in a minute, but.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I worked with him.

• 55:23Billy Corgan?

  You worked with Orson? Well, tell me, tell me.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Well, it was a film by Sir Lou Grade. We fondly called him Sir Low Grade. But he did this film with many, many stars.

• 55:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Called Voyage of the.

• 55:40Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Directed by a lovely director, Stuart Rosenberg, who had done Cool Hand Luke.

• 55:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  A terrific movie and Paul Newman, one of his great performances, but. And, you know, Faye Dunaway was in this and, oh, God, everybody. Max Von Sydow and.

• 55:59Billy Corgan?

  Great actor, you think?

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Great actor, absolutely, and actually a very funny man.

• 56:04Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 56:05Speaker 01

  You had no idea. He was so funny. I thought, I thought you were one of the, he goes, oh, they're just the films that I do, Malcolm.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  And, um. Yeah, um, so we were shooting in Barcelona and, um. Stuart Rosenberg said to me, Malcolm, you don't have any scenes with Orson. He's here. I went, he's here? You know, Orson Bellis, oh, my God. So they're doing a scene with him. He goes, would you like to come to his suite tomorrow morning for breakfast? I went, please. He said, because he's a fan of If. And I went, oh, how wonderful. So I go there, meet the great man. He is.

• 56:52Billy Corgan?

  He's huge.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  I mean. He had to build a ramp for him to get into the car. Anyway, um.

• 57:01Billy Corgan?

  A true gourmand.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so in come the waiters with silver salvos, full of melon, prosciuttos and cheeses and eggs and, and I'm thinking, God, there must be a 50 people coming all for him.

• 57:20Billy Corgan?

  Yes. I've, I've read that he would order five, basically food for five men.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So we had a bit of this and a bit of that, a chat and, and I realized, wow, he's, of course, um, you know, was. Brought up in the radio age.

• 57:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  And his acting is radio acting. It was really a bizarre thought that I had when I was talking to him.

• 57:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  And I was like, wow, it's really a beautiful voice.

• 57:52Billy Corgan?

  I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 57:54Billy Corgan?

  Are you a fan of his, his like Chimes of Midnight?

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 57:58Billy Corgan?

  It's beautiful.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 58:00Billy Corgan?

  I think to me, Chimes of Midnight is, everyone, of course, talks about Citizen Kane. I think Chimes of Midnight is just a stunning piece of work, considering how he shot it on Five Countries.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Incredible. How, well, sometimes, you know, when you're under that kind of pressure, great art will come, you know?

• 58:20Billy Corgan?

  Let me read you this quote from Mr. Kubrick. This is because when it, when it all started to get kind of controversial, the movie got banned in Britain.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:28Billy Corgan?

  Clockwork.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Well, it didn't get banned.

• 58:29Billy Corgan?

  Tell, tell me, because I, you know.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Kubrick was getting death threats to him and the family about making such a violent movie. He went to Scotland Yard and they said, well, just withdraw the film.

• 58:43Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  That'll stop all that. And that's what he did. Only in Britain, though.

• 58:49Billy Corgan?

  Did the English press go crazy when that movie came out? I mean, in terms of like, this is going to inspire violence and did they go just bonkers?

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Of course, you know, the, the English tabloids.

• 59:01Billy Corgan?

  I've been the victim a few, few times.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:03Billy Corgan?

  Stanley's quote, "A social satire dealing with the question of whether behavioral psychology and psychological conditioning are dangerous new weapons for totalitarian government to use to impose vast controls on its citizens and turn them into little more than robots."

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Uh, B F Skinner, isn't it?

• 59:22Billy Corgan?

  Yes, yes. I read B F Skinner when I was like 12 years old.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, did you? Oh, you're an egghead.

• 59:29Billy Corgan?

  Namaste.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Wow, I'm impressed.

• 59:32Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. But the reason this quote struck out to me because it's fun to talk about old things. I like to talk about old things too, but but I think it's interesting that there is a modern parallel now because we're having this big conversation about AI behavioral modification through the use of social media and.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Well, it's, I mean, look, I, you know, I'm doing this show up in Newfoundland called Son of a Critch.

• 1:00:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  With a wonderful producer, actor, writer, Mark Critch. And so I sent him, a friend of mine did this rhyme about, and they said to AI, they said, do a limerick about Malcolm McDowell.

• 1:00:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  This incredible limerick came back mentioning all my movies, or 20 of them, in this incredible piece, and in three seconds.

• 1:00:34Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I was so, as they say, gobsmacked. I sent it to Mark in Newfoundland and I said, look at this, your days are numbered, my friend.

• 1:00:47Billy Corgan?

  Yes, sir, yes.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Writers are gonna be over. He sent back another limerick about me that was even better. And I went, oh, my God, touche.

• 1:01:01Billy Corgan?

  And he wrote the limerick back?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  And he did it himself.

• 1:01:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  And he said, nah, no problem.

• 1:01:07Billy Corgan?

  We'll be all right.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Billy Corgan?

  One other thing, I thought this was interesting.

• 1:01:12Billy Corgan?

  Critic Leslie Halliwell.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:15Billy Corgan?

  Said, "A repulsive film in which intellectuals have found acres of social and political meaning, the average judgment is likely to remain that it is a pretentious and nasty rubbish for sick minds who do not mind jazzed up images and incoherent sound."

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Poor man. Poor sweetheart. Darling, kiss my ass.

• 1:01:35Billy Corgan?

  My last thing on Clockwork.

• 1:01:39Billy Corgan?

  I think it's one of the greatest movies of all time. I mean,

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Well, people are still talking about it, still seeing it 50 odd years later.

• 1:01:46Billy Corgan?

  What I found, the reason I started this little thing here is, is I still see where the critical class has a hard time giving the movie its prop, which is kind of funny.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Yes, I understand that because I think we touched on it slightly is that there is an immoral man who is made out to be the hero of the film. That is, by the way, never been done before in a studio movie.

• 1:02:13Billy Corgan?

  But aren't we, but aren't we living that now?

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  I would have thought.

• 1:02:16Billy Corgan?

  We're living, we're living people being celebrated.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And for rape.

• 1:02:22Billy Corgan?

  And we're having.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  And for, and other things.

• 1:02:25Billy Corgan?

  And we're having rational discussions about people doing awful things.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:02:30Billy Corgan?

  Like when the moral needle moves to the point where we have to decide as a culture, a Western culture, whether or not this act of horrific violence is in essence justified.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  But Halliwell wrote that in 1971.

• 1:02:45Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I'm saying is like.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  He probably wouldn't write that now.

• 1:02:50Billy Corgan?

  No, I think, I think as oftentimes happens when a zeitgeist happens, the old guard continues to defend the way it used to be. When young people have already moved on. I mean,

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Billy Corgan?

  You know, that's why personalizing art is the greatest mistake that people make. The famous quote was always Picasso was a toll.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:03:10Billy Corgan?

  You know, you ever heard that?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  I've, I've always heard that it took Picasso 50 years to learn how to draw a straight line. And I always think that is a great quote, actually.

• 1:03:24Billy Corgan?

  But the riff on Picasso is a toll is that we have to personalize the thing, the thing that the art engenders, whatever, whatever clockwork, for example, using that as the, as topic of conversation unleashed into the culture. It, is it, is it responsible for what it pointed was coming? Or is it responsible for what it engendered? And I think now, looking back, you know, the criticism of Clockwork seemed trite compared to what followed.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, listen, it was supposed to be futuristic. But of course it wasn't.

• 1:03:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  I mean, because we'd seen this Pavlovian thing going on in in American prisons, actually, this aversion therapy.

• 1:04:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  So, I mean,

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  it wasn't futuristic at all.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  It was happening and gangs were hello. Gangs have been going around, look at West Side Story, singing about it.

• 1:04:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  And drugs, hello. I mean, so we've seen all this before.

• 1:04:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  It's just that Burgess, you know, nobody really gives Burgess the credit that he honestly deserves. He's up there with Stanley Kubrick, absolutely, in what he delivered. I mean, without his stuff, well, there's no, there's nothing. I mean, Stanley wasn't really a writer, anyway.

• 1:04:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Even though he claims that he did the screenplay, but.

• 1:04:59Billy Corgan?

  So, coming off of this massive moment, you know, the movie made gobs of money and

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:07Billy Corgan?

  all that type of stuff.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Billy Corgan?

  This is always my fantasy, but give me your version. You know, you're sitting in the room with the agent, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're coming off a big movie. Like, what do you want to do? What do they want you to do?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  I'll tell you that I was very aware. That I would be manipulated to do things that I did not want to do. And I did refuse to do them. I was offered a movie, so much money to do a love story with an older actress. Actually, I was a great fan of hers, but the script sucked, so pass. What? All this money? How can you pass? My agents were absolutely beside themselves. And then, you know, came to Hollywood and met the guys running the studio.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  They, you know, were very complimentary, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, then they offered me Lost Horizon. Lost Horizon? I'd just done Clockwork Orange. I mean, I couldn't do that. So I got straight into A Lucky Man. And I'm very fond of A Lucky Man. I love it. Alan Price's score is absolutely, completely undersold and quite brilliant. And the lyrics, actually, are really superb.

• 1:06:46Billy Corgan?

  I'm sad to say I haven't seen it, but doing all this research on you.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Have you never seen it?

• 1:06:51Billy Corgan?

  No, I want to see it now.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Oh, well, my God, if you like, if, this is the follow up.

• 1:06:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, I know that now.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  If you have a friend on whom you think you can rely, you are a lucky man. If you have a reason to live on and not to die, you are a lucky man. Teachers and scholars and something don't know it. Anyway, Alan did a brilliant job.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  Um, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me. But now that you're in this deeper water of success and expectation and.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Darling, I'm eighty-two.

• 1:07:33Billy Corgan?

  No, not now.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  I'm not. Oh, and then, oh, fuck.

• 1:07:36Billy Corgan?

  No, I'm just, I, I, I find it fascinating what people do under extreme circumstances.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Let me tell you, I withdrew.

• 1:07:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's what I was after.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Because I knew that it would eat me up.

• 1:07:49Billy Corgan?

  Personally?

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:50Billy Corgan?

  Were you not strong enough, or you just didn't want it?

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Um, I wanted it on my terms, and, and I thought if I play that game, I'm dead. So.

• 1:08:01Billy Corgan?

  The fact that you're still.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Go back to the theater, do a play. Go do a play, which is what I did. Do your own film with the man you really love, Lindsay, and admire. Do that. And, you know, okay, it wasn't the success of If, still an incredible film. And today, um, it's fated, you know, If is considered one of the great British films made of that, that, yeah.

• 1:08:30Billy Corgan?

  Well, it strikes me as, um, as, as, as a rank untoer myself, I think.

• 1:08:37Billy Corgan?

  You made the right decision because you're still here. If, if, a lot of people in your position.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:43Billy Corgan?

  They tend to fall off a cliff at some point because they can't sustain that.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of fell off the cliff, but I.

• 1:08:49Billy Corgan?

  But you fell off the cliff, you, but you kind of chose to fall off that cliff. Does that make sense?

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:54Billy Corgan?

  Is that fair?

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. Um, so, yes.

• 1:09:00Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it was interesting. Just, just to play along with you, I mean, here's, here's, I, here's a note that I have in my note card.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Billy Corgan?

  Many actors fizzled out, but, but he persists. Why?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Ah, well, because I'm English.

• 1:09:17Billy Corgan?

  Is that it?

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  No, I'm English, and I was brought up in the theater.

• 1:09:23Billy Corgan?

  Hmm, so you have that.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  So, listen, you always think that's your last part, nobody's ever gonna ask you again. You know, you're lucky to be working, and I always sit on sets. And even today, to a certain extent, look around and go, oh my God, this is so much fun. Are, are they paying me?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I am the luckiest person like you, I'm sure. I know you're a musician and you must love it.

• 1:09:52Billy Corgan?

  I do.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  You just don't love the travel. That's but, you know.

• 1:09:55Billy Corgan?

  There's lots of things I don't love. Okay.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:57Billy Corgan?

  Let's just have a little fun. You, you, you.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Billy Corgan?

  You take, you take this however you like, and thank you for indulging me. I really, I do appreciate it. In 1979, you make two, around that era.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I know this story.

• 1:10:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, I.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Yes, no, please.

• 1:10:13Billy Corgan?

  Over here, we have Caligula.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:16Billy Corgan?

  And over here, we have Time After Time.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  So, I reading the New York Times Best and Worst Lists, I have one film on each.

• 1:10:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'm happy to say that I saw Time After Time when it came out in the theater with my mother.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Ah, yes.

• 1:10:31Billy Corgan?

  We'd go to movies about, you know, once a month. And so I saw, I saw it when it came out.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Finally, I made a movie that my mother could go see.

• 1:10:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Billy Corgan?

  So walk me, walk, because this is a, this is, this is an odd period of your life. You're making this, this famous debauched.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  I did that first. I did that first. It was.

• 1:10:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, if you want to start, you go dark to light.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Okay, I was called by Gore Vidal, a man who's of a certain literary reputation.

• 1:11:03Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  And he, he says, I want to have lunch with you. I've got something I want to urgently talk to you about. I am doing my Gore Vidal's Caligula. That was the title. I went Gore Vidal's Caligula. Okay, where do I come in? Are you playing the bar? Uh, no, no, but.

• 1:11:25Billy Corgan?

  This is my.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said, okay, okay, let me read it. I read it. It was awful, actually, to be honest. It wasn't great. But he promised he'd do rewrites and we'd get into it.

• 1:11:37Billy Corgan?

  What'd you think of him just personally?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought he was entertaining beyond belief. I adored him, actually. I mean, look, you know, I, I wasn't having an affair with him. And I had, there was a, a big, long, um, you know, there was a moat between us. And but, but I enjoyed his company. He was lacerating who he'd go after, you know? God almighty, you should be on the other end of it. But he, you know, he liked, I mean, he was a fun guy. He'd call me up and go, Malcolm, do you have a tie? And go, well, I think I got one somewhere. He goes, wear it. I'll pick you up at six o'clock. Well, where are we gonna do? I'll pick you up at six o'clock. Click.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Six o'clock, got my tie on, jacket. Comes in a cab. I get in. Where are we going? You'll see. Come up to Kensington Palace. We stop the friend, stopped by the friendly Bobby. Pre nine eleven. And he goes, yes, come on in. Her Royal Highness is waiting for you. Princess Margaret, the Queen's sister. So there we are, hanging out with Princess Margaret. Who then, and we go to dinner and she sits next to me and she looks at me and goes. My husband tells me. You've made a movie about.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  And I went, really? Wh- wh- which movie would he? Oh, there is a, yes, mom, there is, I've been told to call her mom. Yes, mom, there is a, in it, but it's not about.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  It really isn't.

• 1:13:20Billy Corgan?

  Sorry to laugh, it's just too good.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  She go. Smoking all the time. Good my god.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  So in the middle of this, I'm going, oh my god, this is so dreary. She's gonna start talking about dogs next, or horses, or something. Anyway, he comes over and he goes, I think Princess M is expecting you. Malcolm to go back tonight. And I went. Cool. I can't, I can't do it. I went, it's the Queen's sister. You, you don't get it, you know, I can't. He goes, well, it would be nice, um, he goes, just. Close your eyes and think of England. And off he went. So I literally was marming, marming, marming, got up, walked out. Got my jacket, went out into the street, called a cab and just split.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  I got a call the next day going, well, where did you go? We were looking all over for you. Princess M was very disappointed. Yeah.

• 1:14:24Billy Corgan?

  Did you know that Orson Welles was offered one million dollars to play in Caligula? Did you know that?

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  To play Caligula?

• 1:14:30Billy Corgan?

  No, to be in Caligula.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Wow, that would have been fabulous.

• 1:14:35Billy Corgan?

  I love this quote.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  But Peter O'Toole, they got Peter, and, and they, they got dear John and then...

• 1:14:39Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you know when you were making this thing that it was a Pentultimate disaster?

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  No. And by the way...

• 1:14:46Billy Corgan?

  I know they've recut it and...

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  No, no, let me tell you.

• 1:14:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay, please, yes.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  It's a new film. It is amazing.

• 1:14:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I have to see it now.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  You do.

• 1:14:55Billy Corgan?

  Cause I saw that you endorsed this new...

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  I loathe Caligula. I loathe Guccione. I thought he was an evil man. I really did loathe him. I, I, he was just so horrible, the way he treated these girls, these pets, was disgusting. And it, it really pissed me off and, but, you know, look, I was working for him, you know? He just put a load of, uh, he had the movie, used us, the main actors, to sell it with the, okay, you know, all right, it's no, it's not the end of the world, you know, all right. Of course, as far as I was concerned, I almost had a nervous breakdown because it, it so upset me

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  and I put so much into that performance.

• 1:15:47Billy Corgan?

  So now that you, now that this re...

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's the movie I thought I made.

• 1:15:52Billy Corgan?

  And you feel good now that you see that?

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  I feel beyond good. I feel completely vindicated. For instance, Helen Mirren, Helen's, performance in the Guccione movie was seventeen minutes. In this one, it's an hour.

• 1:16:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay. She had a, the great quote, which was, it's an unmistakable mix of art and genitals.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's Helen.

• 1:16:16Billy Corgan?

  I mean, what a quote.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, isn't that a great quote? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:22Billy Corgan?

  I I am duty bound to see this new cause.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm going to we're going. I'm off to Florence with my Beckett with my oldest. Or the oldest of the three. I've got two more, but I'm different, different mom. We're going to Florence and Helen's gonna join me for the first time seeing this movie.

• 1:16:44Billy Corgan?

  Oh, fantastic.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  And so we're we're gonna have a first time they're showing this version in Italy.

• 1:16:49Billy Corgan?

  Just to give you a little bit of American feedback. So when I was a kid.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Billy Corgan?

  We kept hearing about this movie. Now, of course, when you're a young man in America in the 1970s, any hint of is utterly fascinating.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Well, you've got Debbie Does Dallas, the green door behind the green door.

• 1:17:05Billy Corgan?

  In fact, the first time I ever saw it was Debbie Does Dallas.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Billy Corgan?

  This kid was a school chum.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Billy Corgan?

  He asked me to stay over.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:17:15Billy Corgan?

  And he said, they had one of those original Betamax's, you know, when the machine was.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:20Billy Corgan?

  And he says, I got this.

• 1:17:23Billy Corgan?

  Uh, and we're in the basement and he he puts it on, you know, and it's making noise. There's no way to turn the noise off. And I'm so mortified that we're gonna get caught.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:17:34Billy Corgan?

  So I said, isn't there a way to turn the there was no mute button back in the day.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:38Billy Corgan?

  Isn't there a way to turn off the sound? He said, well, no. And I said, well, then I can't watch it. Because I can't risk somebody coming down and catching us. So he said, well, there is a way.

• 1:17:50Billy Corgan?

  He said, if we put it on fast forward.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my.

• 1:17:55Billy Corgan?

  Then there's no sound. So the first time I ever saw it was Debbie Does Dallas at like one, one and a half times speed.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  A bit like Charlie Chaplin.

• 1:18:03Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  That's funny.

• 1:18:05Billy Corgan?

  So um, so you go out of this, uh, you know, this epic, you know, this controversy.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Uh, and then time after time.

• 1:18:16Billy Corgan?

  Which is such a beautiful movie.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  I'm reading time after time as I'm, you know.

• 1:18:22Billy Corgan?

  If somebody's getting your.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  This. Whatever.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  And and that was absolutely weird because Gore wanted me to bugger this guy.

• 1:18:32Billy Corgan?

  Of course he did.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Go to this wedding, make love to the bride and then make love to the groom.

• 1:18:39Billy Corgan?

  Well, of course.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  And and you know, and that's colloquial because that's just the way it is or the way it was. And so I went, Gore, I'm not comfortable, you know, doing buggery, to be honest. He went, oh, how about, oh, you're such a prude. I went, I'm a prude? Have you ever seen Clark Wagoner? I am not a prude.

• 1:19:02Billy Corgan?

  I just talked to the Queen's sister about rape.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  I went, uh, uh, uh. Anyway, he kept on at this on and so eventually we're shooting and it was coming up like in two weeks. The producer, the lovely man Franco Rossolini, the uncle of Isabella.

• 1:19:25Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  He went to New York and he comes back and I said, how was New York Franco? Well, you know, he talked to someone who'd been out of this set. I mean, there for nine months on the set. And he goes, oh, I had a wonderful time. I went to this place, you know, in the meat market. It was, um, I went, oh, yeah, this club. I think it was the Anvil or something. I went, oh, really? Oh.

• 1:19:50Billy Corgan?

  I've heard of this.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 1:19:52Billy Corgan?

  I've heard of this.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 1:19:54Billy Corgan?

  Not the story, the the Anvil.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Wow. Oh, you really? You been there? So anyway, um, he goes to the Anvil and he goes, ma, you wouldn't believe it. All these guys on a stage and everybody's fist in the whole club. I went, what? Are you serious? He goes, how do they? He goes, oh, they had things of grease and they had just. I went, oh, my God. And I went.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  That's what I could do. Let's move it to a kitchen and I'll fist the guy. It's way better and quite amusing.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  And they all looked at me a bit like you did, open mouth. And um, I went, yeah, that's it. So we get to the thing, we're there and I say, where's the actor? And they went, they're preparing. I went, and I look over and there he comes, this guy is coming. I said, all these people are around him like he's, he's, you know, heavyweight boxing champion or something. He's getting to the ring and I'm like, who are all these people? What, what's going on? And they went, well, you know, they're his family. I went, his family? Uh, listen, I'm not, I don't really wanna be a fist in the guy with his family watching. I mean, that's, I mean, can't we do something about that?

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  And I went, wait a minute, does the guy know what's going on? They went, not yet.

• 1:21:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I went, oh my God, well, I, I, I'm going to my room. When you've sorted that out, let me know. He was a very good sport. But the one thing that really upset him was after I done, I collegula Caesar in the name of the Senate and the people of Rome.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  And um, I had this sort of little posy of little.

• 1:21:55Billy Corgan?

  Yes, I remember. It's like kind of a garland.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little garland of little roses. I plucked a rose and I popped it like a cherry on the cake. And I walked off. And after much discussion, Tinto, the director said, Malcolm, um, fantastic, this is very, very good. We have a problem that, um, whatever his name, I've forgotten his name. Guido, whatever. We know it. He's upset. I went, I know it's upsetting. I mean, it is. And he goes, no. At the. Okay. It it's the rose on his. And I went, oh, my God.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Let's cut that. Cut it. I won't do that. I'm sorry. I apologize.

• 1:22:46Billy Corgan?

  What was it about the rose that set him off?

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  It was just humiliating.

• 1:22:49Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  I mean, it's bad enough, you know, but then to crown it all. Probably a wrong choice of words, but anyway, um.

• 1:23:01Billy Corgan?

  Two things. Um. I saw something where you were talking about. When you were making time after time, you ended up at some point. After doing location shots in San Francisco. Um, shooting on the Warner Brothers backlog.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:17Billy Corgan?

  And having that sense of that history.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:20Billy Corgan?

  Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I love that stuff. And so.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Well, you know, when they first said. You've been invited to Hollywood. I mean, do you want to go? And I went, do I want to go? I mean, my God, yeah, please. And I know getting in the limo from the airport and I'm going to the driver. Well, where is Hollywood? I mean, where is it? And he goes, well, um, this is Beverly Hills. I went. Well, it's not the kind of Hollywood I'm thinking of. Um, he goes, well, we'll drive down Hollywood Boulevard. And I'm going, this is it.

• 1:23:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  I was just absolutely amazed how scruffy and ordinary it was. And then my minder at Warner's said. Hey, Malcolm, there's a party tonight. You want to go? There'll be a lot of old movie stars. And I went. That's why I'm here. I'd love to pay my respects. I mean. You know, it's my childhood. I mean, I'm a great fan. I don't care.

• 1:24:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  So we go along. And sure enough.

• 1:24:31Billy Corgan?

  You're up. Your mic just popped out. The the pack might have.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:24:36Billy Corgan?

  Might have sat on a button.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Did I what?

• 1:24:39Billy Corgan?

  The button might have been pushed. I think with the pack.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that won't do.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  This is a good moment. Keep it in.

• 1:24:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we'll pick. I know exactly where to pick it.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  I love the whole thing of coming in with the mic. That's very Lindsay Anders.

• 1:24:53Billy Corgan?

  Oh, is it?

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Billy Corgan?

  We'll keep that.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  One second, slow.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Sure. Does it need a new battery?

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  The aerial's loose.

• 1:25:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, speaking of wrecked, it is.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Yes. Exactly.

• 1:25:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  It's some coming on with the posters.

• 1:25:13Billy Corgan?

  We're actually not even in the set. We're just.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  I love it. Yeah. Okay, I'm just gonna put it down there.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  So what we were saying.

• 1:25:26Billy Corgan?

  You, you, you, you were going to, you were going to a party to meet old Hollywood stars.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  So I go and there is Paulette Goddard. Wow. There she is in person.

• 1:25:38Billy Corgan?

  Fantastic.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Billy Corgan?

  Wasn't she married to Chaplin at some point?

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Exactly. Very good. And then the minder goes, Malcolm, Gene's here. Do you want to meet him? Gene Kelly.

• 1:25:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Oh.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  And I went.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  I'd love to meet him.

• 1:25:59Billy Corgan?

  Did he think you ruined his song?

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Well, he cut me dead. He came over. They tapped him on the back and he turned around, looked at me.

• 1:26:09Billy Corgan?

  Did he have his toupee on?

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he looked.

• 1:26:12Billy Corgan?

  He looked like Gene Kelly.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  He looked like Gene Kelly. He was a very handsome man. I mean, I guess he was.

• 1:26:17Billy Corgan?

  Dancer's body.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, he must have been in his sixties, I guess. I don't know.

• 1:26:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Anyway, he just cut me dead and walked off.

• 1:26:25Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:26Billy Corgan?

  Didn't even say hi?

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:26:27Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  And the minder started to apologize and I went, please don't apologize. I get it. He's pissed.

• 1:26:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  I don't blame him. Listen.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  But I hope one day he'll realize it was in homage of his greatness. And the greatness of that film and the imagery to the world was one of euphoria. When I'm doing those dastardly things, I'm euphoric.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  That's why it popped into my head when I did an improv. That's why.

• 1:27:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Last thing.

• 1:27:13Billy Corgan?

  It's much easier for me to interview musicians because I know how musicians think. But I don't really know how actors think.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  I think it's rather similar.

• 1:27:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, please, tell me.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  I've always felt a great camaraderie with musicians. In fact, I'm jealous of musicians to a certain extent. And my son, Beckett, is a musician.

• 1:27:37Billy Corgan?

  I've heard this, yes.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  And it really, I say this as sort of tongue in cheek, but actually it's sort of true, is that it takes you three minutes to make people laugh, to move them, and then make them cry. It takes me two hours to do the same. And there is something so beautiful in encapsulating in that three or four minutes, you know, a world, a story, an emotion. It's just amazing.

• 1:28:13Billy Corgan?

  Yes, no, please. So it's because I think to flip the script, the musician looks at those images on the screen, the grandeur of that, obviously, we've tried to emulate it in music videos, but you could never get the emotional scope of a great film.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  No, and that's the one thing I have over you guys. But I still, I still, I'm in awe of great performances, of great musicians.

• 1:28:45Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, it's.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, I can listen to a song and instantly cry, instantly, if I hear John Lennon.

• 1:28:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  You know, I think the. The Sagono Band, that whole album to me is like.

• 1:29:03Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. They mean where he kind of came out of the scream therapy, that sort of starkness.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  My God.

• 1:29:08Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  That was.

• 1:29:11Billy Corgan?

  Mother, I never had you, but you had, you had me, but I never had you.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Mother. Yeah. I think it's right. And then, don't believe. Oh, my God. He goes through the litany of don't believe.

• 1:29:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. Don't believe in Beatles.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  So beautiful. But I think to me, he had one of the great rock and roll voices.

• 1:29:29Billy Corgan?

  Nice. Did you ever read Jeff Emmerich's book about recording the Beatles?

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:29:36Billy Corgan?

  Jeff was the engineer behind George Martin.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Is this a?

• 1:29:39Billy Corgan?

  It's like in the last 10 years. I think it's called Here, There, and Everywhere.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I'll find it.

• 1:29:43Billy Corgan?

  It's really beautifully written. And

• 1:29:46Billy Corgan?

  he's much more favorable. Jeff Emmerich is much more favorable to McCartney as a personality. McCartney was the guy who would stay late.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:29:53Billy Corgan?

  It was a charm and would work on his basslines.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  All that. And I love him for that. We all love Paul, you know?

• 1:29:59Billy Corgan?

  But he said what was so, and I'm using the term loosely, infuriating about Lennon, was he would write a song like A Day in the Life.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Billy Corgan?

  He'd come in with a cold, bad attitude.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:11Billy Corgan?

  He'd sit down and sing the song four times and leave. And you would sit there and say, how did he just do what he did?

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  A fucking genius.

• 1:30:18Billy Corgan?

  And we're still listening to that, one of those four takes. And he, and he, and he, in 45 minutes, there it is. And we're still listening. We're still decoding and dissecting this level of genius.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  Something about that rawness that speaks.

• 1:30:36Billy Corgan?

  Yes. See, this is what I was gonna end with, if you don't mind, is

• 1:30:41Billy Corgan?

  what we're lucky mutually is that front row to that magic.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Billy Corgan?

  And when it works, it's sort of like, wow.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Billy Corgan?

  And we've both been lucky in that we've stood in that magical moment.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:30:54Billy Corgan?

  And again, and people will sit and ask us into infinity, what happened? And we don't really know.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Billy Corgan?

  Because like I tell fans sometimes, if I knew how to do it again, I would give it to you again and again and again. Like, like a Willy Wonka machine. I would give it to you if I could. I don't.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  But what makes it so incredible and indelible is the fact that you can't, you can't repeat it again and again and again. And that is the greatness of it.

• 1:31:23Billy Corgan?

  Thank you, sir.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  My pleasure.