John 5 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with guitar virtuoso John 5 for a charged conversation about music, mastery, and survival. John opens up about his private KISS museum, the TV-music desert that shaped his Telecaster tone, and a grind honed through Rudy Sarzo, Bob Marlette, Rob Halford, and David Lee Roth. He gets raw about grief, discipline, and the ritual of running full Mötley Crüe sets at dawn—how stepping into that legendary band pushed him to new physical and creative extremes—while revisiting Eddie Van Halen’s genius and the chaos of the Marilyn Manson years. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  It's all about the music. It really is all about the music. And you can't, I really don't think you can deny greatness.

• 1:18Billy Corgan?

  This is my quote for you. You are uniquely voiced for that circus.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 1:25Billy Corgan?

  You've always struck me as some sort of like island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  The other guys were so mean to me. Like, and I just wanted nothing but for them to succeed.

• 1:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, everything's just swimming along, motley crew.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Unbelievable, unbelievable, right? It's so weird to even say.

• 1:53Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you very much. It's nice to see you again.

• 1:57Billy Corgan?

  You know, you've done so many things musically, but let's talk about Kiss.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01Billy Corgan?

  Let's talk about what we really care about.

• 2:05Billy Corgan?

  So, uh, someone from your world sent me a clip of you on the news. And I just had to laugh because, you know, it's like, here we are at the Kiss, you know? And then, and then it's like on, you know, local TV, Knights in Satan's Service Museum. And I was like, oh my God, this is so, so meta-America. Did it, no one realized it was, you know, had something to do with Satan out on the local news.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29Billy Corgan?

  So, am I 2,500 items is your, is your?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  There's 2,500 items, but if we're counting records and cassettes and eight tracks and real reels, then we're well over 5,000.

• 2:43Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 2:45Billy Corgan?

  Have you thought about, um, no, there's a, it's Satan's plane is flying.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50Billy Corgan?

  Have you thought about, um, I mean, I don't know your wife, but I mean, at some point, does she go, should we put this like institutionalizing it, making it like an official thing?

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Yes, she, she gives me that sigh of disappointment, you know?

• 3:06Billy Corgan?

  As only a wife can.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  So, um.

• 3:09Billy Corgan?

  She sees you bidding on something.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:12Billy Corgan?

  An auction, right?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Sweating.

• 3:14Billy Corgan?

  Yes, you know, I have the same problem. So I, people watch my show get mad when I interject myself in other people's things. But I mean, I think we're similar and we collect a lot of stuff.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:23Billy Corgan?

  So when I was reading about you collecting, I was like, that makes total sense to me.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  And I can watch things on people collecting anything, like symbols or.

• 3:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I just, I think collecting is so fascinating. And, um, I always, cause I collect weird stuff, but like, uh, like sometimes people say, what do you collect? So I, I like to collect a post-war. Japanese porcelain figures. They call them post-war Japan.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 3:47Billy Corgan?

  The US, the US, in order to get the Japanese economy going again, started buying a lot of porcelain from Japan. So, so they're literally stamped post-war Japan.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:56Billy Corgan?

  And they, and they look like kind of early anime. It'll be like an American cowboy, but it looks like anime, speed racer-y vibe, but fight from the 50s.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:04Billy Corgan?

  So, but you know, as you know, when you go down the rabbit hole of a collecting world, then there's, now you're in Kiss world.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:10Billy Corgan?

  Now you're in porcelain, post-war, you know, it's like, it's really nerdy in there, like, like, oh, you don't want that. That's, that's, you know, that, that came out later. That's the reissue. This is the real thing.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 4:21Billy Corgan?

  So, um, what did you, you start collecting pretty early on?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I started collecting, and I, I believe that, you know, in my eyes, it's just, makes me feel good from my childhood. Cause, you know, you and I grew up and Kiss was all over the place and I was, I would collect back then. I would remember going to Toys R Us and thumping through the dolls and, or the action figures, I should say. Not dolls, but.

• 4:50Billy Corgan?

  I could see Gene, action.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, I, I loved it and I still have been collecting, um, through all this time. But what I'm doing is I'm really trying to document and make a catalog of everything. I mean,

• 5:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, like, like, almost like a master catalog?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:10Billy Corgan?

  Cause they probably don't have something like that, right?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I'm talking from every country of like,

• 5:15Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  South America and, and Korea and everything. There's 27 different versions of Dynasty from Korea. And it's still in that era of, cause I cut off at the Acorn years, so I have 83, the beginning of 83.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  But I really do, trying to do a, uh, just for rock and roll history.

• 5:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause Gene sat in that very chair and he was like, you know, we had two factories in the valley, you know, full-time, 24 hours a day. But, I mean, it's The Beatles, like, they just threw their name on everything, but that's what makes it cool, you know?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:57Billy Corgan?

  So for those who don't know what we're talking about, Home Museum, right?

• 6:04Billy Corgan?

  Privately guided tours by you.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:06Billy Corgan?

  You're taking like six people at a time, is that sound accurate?

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I want to spend a couple hours with each person and talk to them, play pinball with them, you know, really, and aficionados come in there and they're like, oh, do you have the tour book that was only released for these two shows and, you know, here it is.

• 6:28Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Things like that. So people really enjoy it. I mean, people, it brought tears to their eyes just to touch the costumes from back in the day.

• 6:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I'm big on objects, I guess. That's, I have some original wrestling stuff, you know, I have like the original female belt of the world, you know what I mean? And when you just hold that piece of history and you think that the buildings that this belt was in. So when you're holding something like, something of Gene's from 1974, it's like, it's living history. So what's your, you must have a prized possession or prized possessions?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  I believe I have two. I have the only

• 7:03Speaker 01

  remaining destroyer boots. So he's those, those dragon boots.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  And they're just, they're barely hanging on and they smell and there's mold and there's blood and everything. So those and then Gene's outfit from, I don't know if you saw the clip on Donahue when he was on there very early on. It was like their first TV appearance.

• 7:26Billy Corgan?

  I think I was watching it live in Chicago.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, so he's got that outfit on. He's worn it for hundreds of shows. So I have that as well. And he told me he would just ride on it with the subway like, cause he was, you know, they had no money and, interesting.

• 7:42Billy Corgan?

  This is a little bit of a side question, but I always wonder with, with the band like Kiss, how much stuff ends up floating out into the market, especially when it was band members' personal stuff. Would, you must know some of the allegorical history. Would they, would they just give stuff to like a roadie or like?

• 8:01Billy Corgan?

  They didn't think anything of it, or?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Such a great question, because on the cover of Hotter than Hell, and Paul wore this belt in, at tons of concerts, and on the cover of Hotter than Hell. He's got this belt, and someone reached out to me and said, "Oh, I have his belt." And he sent me a letter of how he got it, and Paul just traded it to him for a ring, for some jewelry. Because in 1975, in Port Huron. Because, you know, to Paul, it was probably just some old costume piece. You and I have both known about that. What do we do with it? And the guy had it for decades, and then just got it to me. But I think everybody ends up selling eventually. We all, once we perish.

• 8:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is, it always strikes me, it's one thing if it comes from the artist.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:53Billy Corgan?

  Like, you got stuff that, you got stuff that only you would have, I got stuff only I would have.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 8:57Billy Corgan?

  Right? You know, like, you go on tour with Molly Crew, it's like, you got one of so many tour books, something like that. And you throw it in the closet, you know, it's like, there it is.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:07Billy Corgan?

  But, but when it, when it seems to kind of, like, when you say these boots, like, at one point, the jeans turned to a cousin and go, "You can have the boots." And, you know, that's, that stuff always strikes me as sort of...

• 9:17Speaker 01

  It is. It's interesting.

• 9:19Billy Corgan?

  It's novel.

• 9:22Billy Corgan?

  I saw one reference this, so please excuse me if I don't have it right, but at some point, you had a Kiss collection, you sold it to somebody, or?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  That's correct. So, what happened was, and I'm just gonna be completely honest,

• 9:39Speaker 01

  I was collecting and had my buddy, who I would collect with. This wonderful, wonderful guy. His name's Ruben, and, you know, he was just such an incredible person. Didn't have a lot of friends, but, you know, we were like partners, and we would collect together, and we'd have so much fun. And he, he was young, got sick, got cancer.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  And died and I was devastated. I was so devastated that I was, I couldn't even look at the stuff, you know? So then, this is so strange, Billy, this is so strange. Then a few years later, I picked it back up and got back into it and I got my new partner that I would, you know, collect with and we had such a good time, we'd do all this thing. And he was just diagnosed with stage four cancer.

• 10:38Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  And he's young.

• 10:40Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  I'm like, what is going on? You know, so he's fighting, I talk to him twice a day, every day. So it's just, it's just, you know, it's, it's very strange.

• 10:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:57Billy Corgan?

  When Gene was here, Gene Simmons, of course, I argued with him that I thought Kiss was better than he thought.

• 11:05Billy Corgan?

  And I thought it was a novel approach to take because I've seen him be kind of almost pseudo dismissive at times of Kiss's music.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:13Billy Corgan?

  And I thought, I bet no one's ever gone at him like this. And I actually kind of got him back on his heels a little bit, which is hard to do, as you know. Gene's a very tough character, very bright. And he's heard it all and he's seen it all.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 11:24Billy Corgan?

  So to try to even find an angle in.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:26Billy Corgan?

  To talk about some. But I was curious about your, because as a fan, especially as a great musician, what's your take on their sort of musical legacy? You know, like, let's call it the musicians' take for musicians of Kiss.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I don't think we'd be talking about Kiss today if it wasn't for the music. And it's not just the music from the debut record to Creatures of the Night, all those great records. They had so many hits in the eighties.

• 11:56Billy Corgan?

  It's crazy.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Tons. Great, great, great, great songs.

• 12:01Billy Corgan?

  Heaven's on Fire. I mean.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, Crazy Nights, like.

• 12:05Billy Corgan?

  Look it up.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  All Night, X and Sex, you know? I mean, it's unbelievable. It's all about the music.

• 12:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It really is all about the music. And you can't, I really don't think you can deny greatness. I mean, there's, there's two types of music. There's good and bad.

• 12:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just think it's interesting because. Generally speaking, there's a ton of love for Kiss in the rock community. It's not just sentimental. It's like, everybody knows Ace is a great guitar player, that they wrote great songs.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:41Billy Corgan?

  And, but somehow there's that sort of public thing. And I think a lot of it honestly has to do with Gene kind of talking in public for so many years, kind of making it about money. And I don't know if it was on the Donahue appearance that you referenced, but I remember watching Gene interviewed very, I mean, I couldn't have been, it was probably mid seventies. So I would have been eight, nine years old watching them and I was a fan. And he was so crass. And the audience was like, you know, because they'd all grown up on Gene Autry, you know, just want to sing these songs and, you know, Liza Minnelli and all this. And here's Gene, just like, we do whatever we gotta do, you know? It was, it was so crass that it was shocking and it was effective in a kind of a marketing way of, you know, making people think about what they were doing in a different way.

• 13:26Billy Corgan?

  But I think in the, in the long tail of that was then Kiss, it became, and you've seen it because you're a fan, you've seen those reviews from like 1975, like, you know, they can't play, they can't sing, can't dance, you know, all that stuff. So.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  It's, it's funny because in the beginning, they didn't want Gene to do interviews because he was.

• 13:45Billy Corgan?

  Oh, because it was the character, yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he was, he's so educated and so well spoken. And so when you, like, just for fun, you know, go on the Youtubes and look up this interview, Donahue, 1974. And it's so weird because he's like, your audience looks very appetizing and stuff like that.

• 14:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, is that when he was trying to be that character?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they, they were just, you know.

• 14:11Billy Corgan?

  What's that famous, is it Mike Douglas where he's on there with like?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Oh, it's Mike Douglas. I'm sorry, it's not Donahue. Oh, my God.

• 14:17Billy Corgan?

  But, but, but, but there's that.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  It's Mike Douglas.

• 14:19Billy Corgan?

  But he's on there with some, some actress and she goes, oh, come on, I know you're just a Jewish boy from the Bronx.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't hide the hook. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God.

• 14:30Billy Corgan?

  But he's trying to kind of play evil.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Right. And he's like trying not to like smirk and laugh.

• 14:34Billy Corgan?

  It's Mike Douglas, who's like totally schmaltzy.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Mike Douglas, oh, my God, I feel so bad. Why did I say Donahue?

• 14:40Billy Corgan?

  But what was funny about that is now it looks, it looks kind of funny in the abstract, right? Because now we know how the, like when Paul was here, I said, you know, now we know how the movie ends, so we could kind of look at it and have fun and, and, and look at things, you know, in a, in a rosy way. But I think it's fascinating that.

• 14:57Billy Corgan?

  They didn't really know what they were stumbling into. And there are those moments where Gene's like, am I supposed to be the evil guy? And at some point, he settles on the kind of, you know, the the stentorian kind of, or is it stentorian? But Gene.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:11Billy Corgan?

  You know, and then, of course, Ace is just a loose cannon, the famous, the famous, uh, what's it, uh, Tom?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, yeah, um, Tom Snyder.

• 15:22Billy Corgan?

  Tom Snyder. I was on Tom Snyder once and I was totally geeking out, but uh, but like, I mean, Ace is out of his mind. And you could see the man just like going, oh, God, there goes, there goes our career.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  He was dying. The first time I met Gene, I was a little kid and I.

• 15:39Billy Corgan?

  How old?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Um, it was the lick it up tour, so I was probably 13.

• 15:44Billy Corgan?

  Is this like a meet and greet type of deal?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  No, I was, I skipped school, which is very odd and.

• 15:50Billy Corgan?

  Meant to be.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I was like, I went to the Positrain Hotel in Detroit, downtown, not the safest place in the world. And a preppy kid from Gross Point, Michigan and, and got there and waited all day and here comes Gene. And he just walks right by me and gets in the elevator and I was like, I'm gonna get in the elevator, I'm not gonna blow this. So he's standing like this, like this. And I have my, the originals booklet and I said, um, I said, will you sign this? And he just wouldn't answer me. He was just, and I'm just this little kid like standing there with like my booklet. And he just wouldn't answer me, wouldn't look at me. So he gets, we get to the floor.

• 16:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  And Billy, I'm, I'm being so honest, I can't believe I did this. Door opens, he goes, you want me to sign that for you, son? And I go, no, it's okay. Can you believe it? I can't believe I did that. Like.

• 16:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, he hurt your feelings.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I, he just obviously didn't want to, you know, do it. So I was like, it's okay, forget it.

• 17:00Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless them.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:01Billy Corgan?

  All of them, really.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I love them.

• 17:03Billy Corgan?

  So let's talk about you now.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 17:06Billy Corgan?

  Now, yeah, it's been great talking to you about Kiss.

• 17:10Billy Corgan?

  I love, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I saw that you started playing guitar because you saw somebody playing on Hee Haw. And it was the guy I played, I think he was playing banjo, but.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:20Billy Corgan?

  But of course, Roy, what's his name again?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Jimmy Henley.

• 17:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And of course, Roy Clark was like a total shredder.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  The best.

• 17:27Billy Corgan?

  Crazy.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 17:29Billy Corgan?

  And I think it's hard, maybe for younger generations to understand that music was so scarce on television in America in the seventies and early eighties. Like, we took wherever we could get it.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Anything, Parch, Henley, The Monkees, Hee Haw.

• 17:45Billy Corgan?

  Right. So we, like, and Mickey Dolan's was in that chair too. And it was like.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Very song.

• 17:50Billy Corgan?

  But, but it's that, it's like, oh, my God, somebody singing a cool song to me. Thank God, there's something.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:57Billy Corgan?

  Banana Splits, anything.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Anything.

• 17:59Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  So talk a little bit about that because I think that's, Hee Haw's a very underappreciated part of our culture.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 18:06Billy Corgan?

  Because

• 18:08Billy Corgan?

  in middle America, it was sort of presented as like, you know, the, the, the local, yokel rednecks having a laugh. But when you really look, there was like Buck Owens. I mean, you had real musicians there.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  All of them were just incredible. And I would watch this with my dad and, you know, it was, it was what was on and I was so.

• 18:30Billy Corgan?

  It was all, all that was on.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  It was all that was on?

• 18:33Billy Corgan?

  That's it.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  I was so drawn to Don Rich and, and.

• 18:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God, Don Rich.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I was like just.

• 18:40Billy Corgan?

  Can that guy play?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. And Buck Owens.

• 18:42Billy Corgan?

  Telly too?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:43Billy Corgan?

  Telly guy.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  So I was so drawn to the electric guitar. I was like, I couldn't, I just couldn't take my eyes off of it. And that's why I play a telly because at my young age, I was like six. I, I was like, I want to play the electric guitar. And I didn't think they came in any other shape. I thought it was just.

• 19:02Billy Corgan?

  You just thought that was the shape?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  I just thought that was the shape of an electric guitar.

• 19:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And I was so mesmerized by it. And I just would always talk about the guitar and.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  So I saw Jimi Henley in 1976 playing a this banjo. He's playing Orange Blossom Highway and just killing it. And he was this kid, too. He was a kid.

• 19:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  And I was like shocked. I was like, I can't believe this is incredible. And but even at such a young age, I mean, I play banjo and I love banjo. But even at a young age, I was like, I want to play electric guitar, not banjo.

• 19:45Billy Corgan?

  So something about the guitar.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it really was such an epiphany for me.

• 19:52Billy Corgan?

  Do you play Scruggs style?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:55Billy Corgan?

  Haven't quite, I can't wear the.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:58Billy Corgan?

  Do you do the?

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:00Billy Corgan?

  The hum pick?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  The picks, yeah.

• 20:02Billy Corgan?

  I've never been able to get comfortable with that.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so interesting. And I'll use my fingers like live. I'll play, you know, but I'll just use my fingers. But I love the banjo. But key hot like television, I think, is so important because it could change your life forever. You know, just being influenced by music and things like that.

• 20:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know, Morello and Adam Jones and I all grew up in sort of the same area. So it's like, and we were all watching the same stuff you were watching. And outside of Detroit, right? It's just like, we were taking it anywhere we could get it.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Anywhere.

• 20:41Billy Corgan?

  So there's something really beautiful about that. I think that on some way, I almost say that the scarcity of information forced us to use our imagination and our musical ambitions in unique ways. And I think that's why we're all kind of unique guitar players.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 20:58Billy Corgan?

  We didn't sort of all end up in the same camp.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 21:03Billy Corgan?

  It's loosely defined as alternative music, but I don't really think.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 21:08Billy Corgan?

  Like I've always said, but I like I, when I, when you play guitar, I understand how you play guitar. You know, we don't play the same, but I get why you do what you do. It's not like I'm listening to the guy, it's too weird to me. It makes total sense.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:20Billy Corgan?

  And I always felt that way, Morello and Adam same way.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's funny, the reason I do play guitar like that because.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Just being honest, it's like I don't really talk about it that much, but I had, you know, I loved Randy Rhoads and Yngwie and, you know, everybody that we all loved. Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. And I learned all that stuff and really loved it. But I started like putting out instrumental records. I've had so many deaths in my family, like an unusual, strange amount, like my mom, dad, two sisters, brother-in-law, best friend, father, you know, niece, like it just goes on and on, very strange. And so I would go into therapy. I was going into therapy because I was like, you know,

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I thought I was cursed in some way, you know, it's just very strange. But the therapist told me something so imperative that I'll never forget and it changed my life forever. He said, "Do something to occupy your brain, to really occupy your brain." And that's why I was started with the instrumental records.

• 22:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. I was gonna ask about that. We could talk about it now.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:41Billy Corgan?

  Did you put out 10? Is that accurate?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:43Billy Corgan?

  So it's just a way to have something to really hyper-focus?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  To hyper-focus because if not, I'd probably, you know, be throwing feces at traffic or something, you know.

• 22:53Billy Corgan?

  Or you'd be playing on Hee Haw.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be great. But yeah, it really helped so much. I mean, it was, it's incredible because you're really trying to, you know, master this technique and this different styles of music and all that stuff, you know? So it really helped a lot.

• 23:11Billy Corgan?

  That explains it, yeah. Because you're, you're an unusual case because when you kind of came on to the musical scene and I heard about you and people talk about your playing, you know?

• 23:26Billy Corgan?

  You didn't have this immediate, like, I don't wanna say a man without a country, but you know, for a while, you seemed to kind of float between projects, bands, artists, and stuff like that, in a way that, like Jeff Beck or something, more like a gunslinger type, and you seemed comfortable with that. But that explains it to me, because I was like, well, how does this other component fit in? Because you've never, you don't seem like somebody who wants to be viewed as a proto-shredder type, like, it's not really your brand.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:54Billy Corgan?

  How do you, here's a question for you in 2025. How do you define your brand?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I love to, I love music in general, country, jazz, everything rock, but I love just being with different bands, like Manson, or Zombie, or Motley Crue, or, but then I love to like, just go nuts and do these crazy, you know, shredding shows and albums. I really have the best of both worlds, because I'm not gonna go play, you know, Home Sweet Home with sliding arpeggios and stuff like that. It's just, wouldn't work.

• 24:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, you'd cause some kind of riot.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's why, it's just wonderful to have kind of the best of both worlds, you know?

• 24:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  It's, I'm so happy and, and very fortunate to be doing what I'm doing.

• 24:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, we're living the dream.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:55Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure. Explain to me how you suddenly end up in LA at 17. Was it the classic Midwest, I gotta get out of here, I'm gonna go where the music is?

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, where I grew up, Gross Point, it's kind of like, like Beverly Hills, but kind of even beyond.

• 25:14Billy Corgan?

  I once had a crush on a girl in Gross Point, so I have a little bit of Gross Point information back in the day.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  It's beautiful, like, it was beautiful.

• 25:22Billy Corgan?

  Because, sorry, because, and I'm not a Detroit or I'm a Chicago, but sure, but, you know, people would say to me, oh, she's from Gross Point.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:30Billy Corgan?

  Meaning, it's never gonna work.

• 25:33Billy Corgan?

  See, that's a good one, right?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  That's a good one. That's a good one. That's actually really good.

• 25:38Billy Corgan?

  So I had a cry. She was very beautiful and it was like, it's never gonna work. She's so gross point.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  That's so funny. That's so funny, but.

• 25:45Billy Corgan?

  The point being, she's always gonna go back to the country club. She's not gonna hang out with the rock.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Of course, she's not gonna, which is, you know.

• 25:51Billy Corgan?

  It's like every Bill Murray ever, movie ever.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  But I was in high school and um, these, this just strange story, but these people from Warner Brothers came, flew, cause heard about me and they were like.

• 26:06Billy Corgan?

  Like a local rep thing?

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Very odd.

• 26:09Billy Corgan?

  Are you local bands? Cause I, there's not a ton of information about you in this period of your life.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Like did, had like this local band and we played all Van Halen, you know, and it was just, we won all these Battle of the Bands and I was playing nightclubs at like, when I was in junior high and, you know, it was like.

• 26:25Billy Corgan?

  Are these just like rocker bars?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, rocker.

• 26:28Billy Corgan?

  So not more on the rock side?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Which you would maybe know, Harpo's? You remember?

• 26:32Billy Corgan?

  Sounds familiar. I don't think we ever played there, but.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. But, so there was, anyway, these people came and they were like, oh, we think he, he would do really well and blah, blah, blah. So I didn't even graduate. So I just went.

• 26:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay, stop there. So what do your parents say at this point?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  So I've never had a drink, never had a smoke or anything, never a cigarette or anythings and they were supportive.

• 26:56Billy Corgan?

  Because they were like, you're an adult and you can handle this.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, we know you're not gonna like, you know, and I was so obsessed with guitar. I mean, so obsessed. And I drove out and I drove out actually with the drummer from Megadeth. He was on the album So Far So Good, So What?

• 27:15Billy Corgan?

  What was his name again?

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Chuck Bueller.

• 27:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  So he, um, I drove out with him cause he lived in Michigan. You're driving out there. And I knew nothing. I mean, I was so sheltered.

• 27:29Billy Corgan?

  So you have, you have your stuff and the guitar and an amp?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was so sheltered. I knew nothing. I could hardly cross the street, you know? So.

• 27:39Billy Corgan?

  Especially coming out here. So that would have been what year I'm trying to do?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Eighty-eight.

• 27:42Billy Corgan?

  That's a good time to come out here.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44Billy Corgan?

  I, I actually came out here right about the same time too.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Really?

• 27:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um.

• 27:50Billy Corgan?

  A friend's sister had moved out here, so we kinda came out here for a week to kinda hang and sleep on the floor.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yup.

• 27:55Billy Corgan?

  And went to a club, Scream.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 28:00Billy Corgan?

  Saw the fuzz tones.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:02Billy Corgan?

  And Ian Asbury showed up and sang a song. It was very LA.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it was, I mean, a great time to, great time to be here.

• 28:10Billy Corgan?

  Plus, early Janes, right?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I saw everybody.

• 28:13Billy Corgan?

  TSOL.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:15Billy Corgan?

  I feel like TSOL, when they kinda went almost like more a new wave.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rage and, and they would just play these clubs and...

• 28:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there was, there was that interesting little sliver of time.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:29Billy Corgan?

  Care metal was kind of at the, on the wane and there was that sort of moment of like, where does this go?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you would see a lot of bands just get up and play, like Guns N' Roses at the Cat House. They would just get up and play.

• 28:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I hear the stories, but I was never there.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was there. Luckily Ricky Rackman would let me in. I was so young, I was so young, but he knew I wouldn't drink.

• 28:50Billy Corgan?

  He knew.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  He knew I didn't drink or anything.

• 28:52Billy Corgan?

  I was just doing my Jimmy Kaling, you knew.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  But I drove out here with the drummer and I, he was like, oh, um, I gotta go to my friend's house. And I'm like, we're like in a bad neighborhood, what are you talking about? And he'd go score dope. I didn't know what he was doing.

• 29:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, how's your friend? You know, and I didn't know, I still...

• 29:16Billy Corgan?

  Is your friend okay?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and all of a sudden he was all better.

• 29:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, you're triggering memory, cause when I was out here and we were staying with like the friend's family type thing, the guy, the man of the house, he was smoking heroin.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:30Billy Corgan?

  So suddenly like we had to leave.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:33Billy Corgan?

  Like we got kicked out.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:34Billy Corgan?

  Which is like, but we're just sleeping on the floor for a few more days and we're gonna go down to Hollywood Boulevard. It's like, you gotta get out now. And we kinda got thrown out. Very LA, right?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Very LA, kinda same thing. When I got to LA, I slept on this floor. Of these guys and that Chuck knew and he's like, yeah, just sleep here. And I was like, okay. And I, I don't know how I fell asleep.

• 29:56Billy Corgan?

  I didn't get somewhere.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  So excited and they robbed me first night.

• 29:59Billy Corgan?

  So I, I didn't, I thought I was assuming the best.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. First night they robbed me. So I was like.

• 30:05Billy Corgan?

  You robbed your guitar?

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Uh, no, just the money I had.

• 30:08Billy Corgan?

  Sleeping with your guitar?

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, just the money I had, just the money.

• 30:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God, I'm sorry to hear that.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and.

• 30:12Billy Corgan?

  We see me laugh now, but.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can laugh.

• 30:14Billy Corgan?

  It's terrible, it's terrible.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, and I knew one other person and luckily, you know, I, I.

• 30:22Billy Corgan?

  His name was Nicky Six, no.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 30:27Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God, I didn't know all that stuff. So, um.

• 30:33Billy Corgan?

  Somebody, I, I assume you love him still, Rudy Sarzo?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Love Rudy Sarzo. Love Rudy Sarzo.

• 30:40Billy Corgan?

  How amazing is Rudy Sarzo? So you come in, somehow you end up in a band briefly with Rudy called Sun King, right?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm playing.

• 30:48Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know about Sun King.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't really, it's so weird. I don't really talk about like a lot of this stuff like.

• 30:55Billy Corgan?

  See, I love this stuff because.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I do too, but people don't ask it.

• 30:58Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know, they want to ask about, you know, what's it like being on the road?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:02Billy Corgan?

  Private plane. I'm like, no.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:06Billy Corgan?

  Tell me how you got from there to there.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  And that's why I love.

• 31:09Billy Corgan?

  Because you and I know that's an impossible journey.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  It's so hard.

• 31:13Billy Corgan?

  Which is why we kind of sit here and go, okay, it worked, I'll take it. But those weird, like you're sleeping on the floor.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:19Billy Corgan?

  You know, you ain't sitting like, what, I'm gonna be playing at the stadium with the crew. You're like, oh, my God, I can't eat.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally.

• 31:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm living at the Hollywood Billiards that was on Hollywood and Western and no bathroom, no food, no anything. And we actually had to put nails outside of our door so they wouldn't kick it in because there was all these gang members and stuff, which was a pretty good idea. Um, but then we had this gig and.

• 31:47Billy Corgan?

  But there's a gig.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then there was a gig at Gazari's and Betsy Browning.

• 31:53Billy Corgan?

  Is Gazari still alive at this point?

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:54Billy Corgan?

  So you got that whole.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  It was Gazari's.

• 31:56Billy Corgan?

  Keep going, keep going.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so Betsy Browning, Rudy was putting a band together and he was in Whitesnake at the time and I was like.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Oh my God, Rudy Sarzus coming to the gig. It's like

• 32:09Billy Corgan?

  This Rudy Sarzus?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, you know, Paul McCartney coming to the show or something.

• 32:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. There was The sweetest, most beautiful

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Best, talented, sweetest person you could ever meet, you know?

• 32:23Billy Corgan?

  Talk about an angel.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Oh, incredible. Just an incredible person. So I am so excited. We're like, oh my God, Rudy Sarzus is here. It's him and his wife and a couple of waitresses. No exaggeration.

• 32:37Billy Corgan?

  So one of those LA nights.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, we gotta go out there. All right. So we open up like this like thing without the just a little instrumental piece, not anything, just like chords and stuff. And then the singer comes down and he he bumps his head on like something because it's real dark. He bumps his head and we're playing and the singer goes like this and there's blood coming down his head. And he goes, the singer just goes guitar solo. And then I just play in this guitar solo because he's like fixing himself up. Rudy's like, this is the best show I've ever seen. This is incredible. And so that night

• 33:15Billy Corgan?

  The stuff of dreams.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  That night, he took me to um Denny's. And it was like 2:30 in the morning.

• 33:24Billy Corgan?

  Is this the Denny's like down in Gower?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Uh, on Sunset.

• 33:28Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And rock and roll Denny's, you know, like the

• 33:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I know.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it was uh like, I was like, oh my God, you know

• 33:37Billy Corgan?

  I can eat and I'm hanging out with Rudy Sarzus.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:40Billy Corgan?

  Not necessarily in that order.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm gonna put this band together and our manager's gonna be Trudy Green.

• 33:47Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  You know, Trudy Green.

• 33:49Billy Corgan?

  I do.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Rolling Stones, all this stuff. I was like, oh my God. So I literally got in my car and I was like, I made it.

• 33:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  And Rudy really is the reason where, you know, that I met a lot of people. I did a lot of sessions with John Wetton, Wilson Phillips, like um all these people, like all these people. He introduced me to so many people. And it was just an incredible experience. He taught me so much and took me under his wing. And it was just incredible. And just the sweetest person.

• 34:28Billy Corgan?

  I mean, talk again, what an angel to run into because he's just the best. You know, like I asked him when we did the Ozzy gig, the last Ozzy gig. We were talking a bit about him being on tour during those, the Blizzard of Oz days and all those. And, you know, I said, what were you doing while all that mayhem was going on around you? He said, I was in my bunk, reading my Bible.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  You know, he's that guy. He's just that guy, you know?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  He's that guy.

• 34:57Billy Corgan?

  Um, also, I saw that you end up becoming friends and working with Bob Marlet. I know Bob a little bit. I worked with him on a Tony Iommi solo record. Bob's an interesting guy, right? He kind of, he found that niche in there where it's like, as the music business was kind of dissipating, it's like you need a guy like Bob Marlet to actually bring projects together. And was he feeding you work or kind of helping you out or kind of explain that relationship a little bit?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I met Bob through Rudy and because Bob and Rudy were playing like, you know, knew each other in the late seventies. And Bob is another one I owe everything to. He introduced me to so many people like, um, and he just really taught me a lot about recording and, and doing sessions because I love doing sessions. I loved it.

• 35:46Billy Corgan?

  What kind of session work were you doing?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Anything, Baywatch, Flipper, Salt and Pepper.

• 35:55Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Everything, anybody that needed a guitar player, I would, I would just do it. And I can, I can read and so I would just go in and do the stuff, but I would do it for half the price of anyone else. Like way less than anybody else and I would do it.

• 36:10Billy Corgan?

  Was it an economy? Just I need, I need to work or were you just happy to do the sessions?

• 36:14Speaker 01

  I just thought to myself, I don't know how smart I was, but I was like, well, I'm going to do it for half the price of everyone else. And at twice the speed, just to get it done.

• 36:26Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  And then I started, hey, there's.

• 36:30Billy Corgan?

  You get a rep, yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's this dumb kid that'll do it for like a few bucks, you know? And so I just started getting all these, all this work from, from Bob and he was incredible, just incredible. But he introduced me to Rob Halford.

• 36:43Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  And.

• 36:45Billy Corgan?

  This is the, the Resner?

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. And he said, go, you know, Rob wants to meet you and go out to Phoenix. And I'm not a great flyer and I always take these Reese's Peanut Butter Cups with me and, and you know, put them in my pocket and I, and I get to Rob's and I'm all nervous and we're talking.

• 37:09Billy Corgan?

  You're on his white couch.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm on his white couch. Do you know this story?

• 37:13Billy Corgan?

  No, I just made it up, but I'm guessing.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  He's got this white couch and I sit on there and I'm like.

• 37:17Billy Corgan?

  I just imagine Rob having a lot of white furniture.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And just like I am right now, talking to him and I'm like, oh my God, thinking to myself, oh my God. So he goes, you want something to drink? And I said, absolutely. So he gets up and I get up like this and take the cushion and if there's chalk all over and flip it around and I'm just walking around, just like if I was walking around here, you'd be like, what's the matter with this guy? And years later I told him and he goes, I Johnny, I really, I thought it was the cat. I thought the cat just went in there or something like that, but it's, it's a true story. But yeah, this all comes from Bob Marlet and just, you know, we did so much great work together and just still recently

• 38:04Speaker 01

  we did Skinnern together and, and all this great stuff.

• 38:08Billy Corgan?

  I still work with Bob, huh?

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, well, I not lately, cause like Motley and all this stuff, but, but a little bit here and there, absolutely. I love him dearly.

• 38:21Billy Corgan?

  You had to play with Lita Ford, opening for Kiss. I mean, back to Kiss for a second. That's gotta be a pinch me moment. Now this is Kiss before the, the full makeup reunion.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 38:31Billy Corgan?

  So where was Kiss at 94?

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Kiss, I'm gonna say this is maybe Hot in the Shade.

• 38:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  You know, or maybe a little later, maybe Revenge.

• 38:39Billy Corgan?

  Is this Bruce Kuluk on guitar?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, who's great, who I love.

• 38:45Billy Corgan?

  I used to hang out a lot with Bruce back in the day and always lovely guy.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Wonderful, talented. So I was doing a session for Lita and she said, you know, uh, would you want to come do some live shows? And I was like, um, you know, I like to travel.

• 38:59Billy Corgan?

  I'm opening for Kiss.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  I don't like to travel. And she goes, oh, we're gonna open for Kiss in, in like San Antonio. And I was like, okay, I'll be there.

• 39:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I'll be there.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  I'll be there. So I'm on the plane and I have this footage, like the, the camcorder, that's like.

• 39:16Billy Corgan?

  One of those.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  You know, so big, you know, and there.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  On the plane, but like regular seats. I don't even think they were in first class because I could see them. And I was like, and I would like.

• 39:28Billy Corgan?

  Hard years. This is before the the van came back together.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  And I would film them walking to the bathroom. I had this and I and I filmed like the road cases and it was so rad. It was so fun.

• 39:41Billy Corgan?

  Be a fun present sometime. You put that together for the boys and say, this is when I was stalking you.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so.

• 39:47Billy Corgan?

  Why?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he loves it.

• 39:53Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 39:56Billy Corgan?

  This is a Jimmy Chamberlain, Jimmy, the drummer.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  I love Jimmy.

• 40:00Billy Corgan?

  Jimmy's.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  God, I love Jimmy.

• 40:02Billy Corgan?

  He's very Joliet, but Jimmy calls him giggers. So Jimmy hates giggers, right? And Jimmy's estimation of of a gigger is is the guy around L A. Never quite gets traction, waiting for the call. You know what I mean? So I'm not saying you were a gigger. You might quantify yourself as that.

• 40:28Billy Corgan?

  You know, Jimmy's best friend is Billy Moller. I'm sure you know Billy. Do you know Billy from?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Of course, sure.

• 40:32Billy Corgan?

  So and Billy, in his own way, would loosely be quantified as a gigger. But he's obviously past that. But I guess I'm just trying to make you laugh. But I mean, the at some point, you worried that you're just going to become kind of one of those guys. Does it make sense the way I'm asking it?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:47Billy Corgan?

  I mean, we know how the story ends, so it's laughable now. But at the time, do you worry? I'm just going to become one of these guys where it's like, because you I was like, and I love Katie Lang. You know what I mean? We used to work with her musical collaborator band. I can't think of his name right now. He played on one of her records. Really lovely and she's lovely, too. But like, and she's an amazing singer. And you, like you said, you love country music.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:08Billy Corgan?

  But, you know, you now you're playing with Katie Lang. You're over here, you know, you can get that rep in town where you're like, you're the guy they call. But you're not the guy who ever ends up in the band.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. You know, I. When I was younger, just like I a lot of other people, musicians. They always dream of this. This is what they want to do and this is what they want to do. I never. Dreamt like that. I never thought, never.

• 41:37Billy Corgan?

  You never had a kind of a aspirational vision?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  I had one of being a session musician.

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Making records. And I was like, God, that would be, God, that would be a dream. That's why I would study so much of reading and all this stuff.

• 41:51Billy Corgan?

  Was there somebody in your mind that you, you know, because we know about the wrecking crew and was it like a wrecking crew vision?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  You know what it is? It's so funny. It's, I wish I had a cooler story, but there was this show in the seventies called Session Man. And I had a terrible, terrible flight when I was a kid. We would always go to Palm Springs. And it was just one of those seventies horrible flights and I was throwing up and it was just horrible. And I said to myself, I never want to fly again. So I saw Session Man. And what they would do is they could just go to these studios and play and make a living.

• 42:30Billy Corgan?

  Was this a docu-series or was this like?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  It was like a little story. You can find it on YouTube. It's really interesting. It's like this guy just trying to make it as a session.

• 42:39Billy Corgan?

  Like a TV show?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:41Billy Corgan?

  I've never heard of this show.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's worth a, it's worth a Google. And, um, and I thought to myself, that's what I want to do.

• 42:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  And at a very young age and.

• 42:51Billy Corgan?

  So when you're doing all this, it's not, you're not thinking you're going backwards. You actually think, no, this is what I.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  This is exactly what I want to do.

• 42:57Billy Corgan?

  That also explains it.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I never thought, I would never think of myself like people knowing my name or wanting to picture or, or playing in front of all these people.

• 43:10Billy Corgan?

  It explains something about you because like, again, from an outside point of view, and this is before I knew you a little bit personally. You know, usually someone in your position, they're looking to, it's the Inba thing. They're looking to find, it's either going to be about them or they're going to end up with the right gig.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:26Billy Corgan?

  So you're odd in that because you're, you're not actually looking for that because everybody else is.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Billy Corgan?

  So you just assume it, whether it's true or not. That makes sense. Did you feel people putting that on you too? Like, shouldn't you be more something, something or?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, of course. And I just, I still feel like I'm going to wake up and go, oh my God, I had this dream. I was in Molly Crew and like.

• 43:51Billy Corgan?

  Well, that, we'll get to that dream slash nightmare in a moment.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Weird, crazy life I've spent and, and you know, like.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  It's just, I just wanted to be a session guy.

• 44:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  And that was it. And just have like a normal home.

• 44:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Because I grew up in the big home with the maids and all that stuff. And I had all, I-

• 44:11Billy Corgan?

  What was it that your parents did that you had, you guys had money like that?

• 44:14Speaker 01

  My father was an investor and also insurance, but one of the higher up guys at All States, good hands people, he was like one of the fingers.

• 44:24Billy Corgan?

  My dad was the, my dad was the fourth.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so it was like that. So yeah, we lived on the lake and it was wonderful.

• 44:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  You know, it was absolutely wonderful. It was-

• 44:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Oh, just a incredible-

• 44:36Billy Corgan?

  It explains a lot about you though, because there's a confidence there. Um, it's one of my questions in a bit, but you've always struck me as somebody who has a confidence. Because as you know, and you've worked with them and some of them are mutual friends of ours. You know, most people, particularly at the alt side of the equation, come from a lot of damaged homes, broken homes, and we're all whacked out of our minds.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Billy Corgan?

  You've always struck me as some sort of like island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us, you know?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:06Billy Corgan?

  And it's, I think it comes across in the way you play even. There's a confidence, but it's not an arrogance confidence. It's just like, I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Right. No, I, God, I'm so, that's, this is why I love this show.

• 45:18Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just, you, you hit it right on the head. I'm not trying to prove to anybody, I'm doing this and learning, still learning every day. Like just to just keep my mind in, in intact, you know? Because, you know, I have physical ailments from just of what happens and just horrible, crippling, physical ailments from my past of the tragedy and things like that. So when-

• 45:49Billy Corgan?

  What tragedy is that? I don't even know.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  The deaths of-

• 45:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 45:53Billy Corgan?

  So it's, it's in my, I call it trauma. Is that a fair word?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Trauma, yeah.

• 45:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it was, so these physical things, but-

• 46:03Billy Corgan?

  Did it have a physical manifestation, the trauma?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 46:06Billy Corgan?

  You don't have to go into it, but it was-

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Really, it's- Horr- it's the worst thing you can ever imagine. So I got this thing called, I'm not, I can't believe I'm gonna even say it, but I got this thing called prostatitis.

• 46:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Non-bacterial prostatitis and it's-

• 46:23Billy Corgan?

  It sounds like a metal band from Denmark.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  It does, doesn't it? It's not.

• 46:28Billy Corgan?

  Sorry.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  But um, it's when your, this is so weird, pelvic floor squeezes your prostate so hard.

• 46:40Billy Corgan?

  I'm sorry, try not to-

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, it's crazy.

• 46:42Billy Corgan?

  It sounds like a-

• 46:43Speaker 01

  And it's just from stress. You can't piss, you can't sit, you can't do anything.

• 46:50Billy Corgan?

  And this is a stress-related medical condition?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 46:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So you're so traumatized, stressed out that it has this physical manifestation?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I was going to therapy and all this stuff. So it's-

• 47:03Billy Corgan?

  Goodness gracious.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  It's the most crippling thing. I remember I was, I'm just gonna spill it all. I was doing this um, show with Slash and Ozzy and all these people and we were going to Norway. And I was bedridden for months with this, uh, cause you can't sit. The only thing you could do-

• 47:25Billy Corgan?

  Had you been diagnosed?

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:27Billy Corgan?

  So you knew what it was and they don't, what, I mean, sorry to ask for the simple word.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Like what do they tell you what to do? Therapy, um, muscle relaxers, Xanax, but you know, I don't have-

• 47:39Billy Corgan?

  You're not a drug taker.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  But I'm not a drug taker. So that's when, you know, I started really honing in on this stuff. But I was on this plane with Ron Wood and Ozzy and all this stuff. And I was sit kind of like on my back, so I wasn't sitting like-

• 47:57Billy Corgan?

  On the area?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  On the area. And I would act like I was sleeping. And it was just horrible, but I just, but luckily, you know, you just get through it. And it's just from all the trauma. It's just all the-

• 48:11Billy Corgan?

  Goodness gracious.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 48:13Billy Corgan?

  I'm sorry to hear that.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's nuts. But you know, it's, that's where it all comes from, you know?

• 48:19Billy Corgan?

  Well, you've hit it well because I mean, you, for the lot of us, I mean, you seem like one of the sane ones and there aren't many.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:26Billy Corgan?

  And you played with a lot of crazy people.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  But that's the confidence, like you were saying. What I do every day doesn't matter, like I was a zombie for 17 years. I would go over the set every day.

• 48:39Billy Corgan?

  Play it.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Playing the same set we've been doing for 17 years. Every day.

• 48:44Billy Corgan?

  Does that relax your mind?

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Relaxes everything.

• 48:47Billy Corgan?

  Interesting.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, same thing with, you know, Motley or Manson or anything. Every day, every day, every day. I did it before I came here. I woke up extra early and did my instrumental set and then the Motley set. Yeah.

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  Wow. Is it just because it allows you to kind of, it's a safe place? Is it interesting?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  That's exactly it.

• 49:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, let's talk about the safe place of David Lee Roth. Diamond Dave.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Diamond Dave.

• 49:16Billy Corgan?

  Let's start here. I love Diamond Dave.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  We all do.

• 49:19Billy Corgan?

  I'm not looking for any gossip on Diamond Dave. But, but as a gunslinger guitarist, I'm definitely on the sloppier end of that scale. But.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:30Billy Corgan?

  Playing, play, thank you, but, but.

• 49:34Billy Corgan?

  And I, and I had the same conversation with Steve I. I mean, stepping into the shadow of Eddie Van Halen is, you know what I mean? That's a, that's an inch. It's one thing to think I'm in the Van Halen cover bed, I can do it. It's one thing to sit there and play Van Halen one in front of a cassette deck. It's another thing to stand up in front of those fans with that guy. And have everybody dissecting every guy note you're playing.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  There's a lot of great stories and.

• 50:03Billy Corgan?

  Pick one.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I will, I will tell you, even from the very, very, very beginning. I was sitting on my friend's couch and I saw the book Crazy From The Heat. And I thought to myself, I wonder what Dave's doing. Cause it was after the whole Vegas debacle and I was like.

• 50:21Billy Corgan?

  He was on a lot on Warner Brothers, I think, trying to get a movie made, right? Wasn't that.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like weird, but he wasn't really, it was pretty quiet.

• 50:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  And there was an address on the back and I called and wrote a letter or something. I said, Hey, I'd like to send some music.

• 50:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  And Ed Anderson answered the phone, who was Van Halen's bodyguard from all the great.

• 50:44Billy Corgan?

  That's why I know the name, yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I went to Bob Marlet's. And recorded three songs and sent him and they were like, oh, we really like these songs. Can you give us three more? And I'm like, oh, God, you know, I gotta beg Bob for like more studio time.

• 51:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  So I gave him three more. Oh, we really like these.

• 51:07Billy Corgan?

  Was it, are they Van Halen?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:09Billy Corgan?

  Are they? Okay.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 51:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  So I, they said, oh, we like these. Can you give us three more? And I said, unfortunately, I can't. I'm so sorry, you know, I, I.

• 51:18Billy Corgan?

  This is after you gave him six?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  After.

• 51:20Billy Corgan?

  That's for three more?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:21Billy Corgan?

  Geez.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  And I said, I hadn't, I have no.

• 51:23Billy Corgan?

  That's a good question.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  You know, and I get a call back, Dave wants to meet you. Come to his house. And I was like, what? You know, so this is.

• 51:33Billy Corgan?

  Wear your, wear your, uh, wear your gi.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Like, this is like the Thomas guide, you know, so I didn't know, I got the address and I drove there after I got off the phone to make sure I knew where I was going.

• 51:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  And I had my like terrible, terrible Toyota Tercel and, you know, I got there and, and I just found my way. And I got there a little bit early and rang the buzzer, hello, you know, and it's that voice. And he goes, John, great to meet you. We're gonna make a record. We're gonna make it just like Van Halen did. We're gonna do it live in the studio. And I was like.

• 52:12Billy Corgan?

  Is this the classic one where he had to do a bunch of acoustic stuff and there was no click or something?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  No, this is the electric, it's DLR band, slam dunk and all this stuff. I was like, oh my God. And he goes, all right, we're gonna go Monday, we're gonna go to Ocean Way and it's gonna be 12 noon. And I said, Mr. Roth, I have a rehearsal with Rob Halford and, and, you know, and he goes, well, I don't want you after rehearsal. I want you fresh. So we're gonna start at 6 a.m. And I was like, okay. So, so I'm like freaking out and I remember we're in the studio, Ray Luzier's playing drums. And, and Bourbon Bob is playing bass and that's me, cause you know, it was just, yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  He said, right before we started, no joke, he goes, if you can't do it in two takes, you can't do it, roll it. And.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  That's what you hear on that record.

• 53:10Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:11Billy Corgan?

  That's it.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Two takes, yeah. And it was incredible.

• 53:14Billy Corgan?

  I think that's the first time I heard you and realized it was you playing, because I bought that record.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:21Billy Corgan?

  Because I heard something, I thought, well, this is interesting. Because somehow you brought a fresh take to the thing.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:26Billy Corgan?

  Does it make sense? It's like, it's kind of what you would expect, right?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:31Billy Corgan?

  Pyrotechnic, but at the same time, I was like, okay, this guy isn't trying to do his Eddie Van Halen imitation.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:36Billy Corgan?

  He's got his own thing. So it did stick out that way.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Right. And it was, it was so magical. But you have one of those CDs. Now, Dave did all that himself with this guy Kirin. Because this was on his own record label.

• 53:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because it had like some weird early Photoshop.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Betty Page.

• 53:59Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. I was like, what is this?

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Dave did that.

• 54:02Billy Corgan?

  I have one in somewhere in my attic.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  He pressed them.

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  I had no idea.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did all those. And I thought that was really smart. And this was when record companies were still record companies.

• 54:12Billy Corgan?

  And they were, they were not happy that artists were being independent.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:15Billy Corgan?

  It was the whole Prince slave on the face.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Very first ones. But I'll fast forward to the acoustic record. This is a great story. We were in the studio, playing these songs and loving it and having such a great time. And I was going on the road, I forget, with somebody. And Dave's like, this is great, sounds awesome. And when you're gone, we're going to have Greg Bissonnet come in and we're going to, he's going to play drums and maybe we'll get Tuggled to do some keyboards. And I was like, great, Dave, you know, let me know how it goes. And the engineer goes, well, wait a minute. We can't put drums on this. There's no click.

• 54:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Dave's like, what do you mean? And I'm putting my guitars in the car. He comes running out and he goes, I've never said this before. He goes, John, I'm going to ask you for a favor. And, you know, a real favor. Can you redo this whole record with, with a click? And it's late and I have to catch a plane in the morning. He goes, I'll pay you, you know, like this much money. And I said,

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Dave, I'm not gonna take your money. I'll do it. And there's all these overdubs and all this stuff. And I did it for him. I redid the whole record in like a day for him, you know? Just because, you know, that's our guy, you know?

• 55:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it reminds me of when Sid Barrett sadly was going insane and had left Pink Floyd. Gilmore, who had been his friend and the other guys of Floyd were still supportive. And he was technically signed to Harvest, which was their label. They made those Sid Barrett records. I don't know if you ever heard them. Well, the only way they could record was Sid would go in and record live with all those weird stops and starts and timings. And then they'd have to figure out how to go back in and build a band around the tracks. And David Gilmore told me, he said, it was a nightmare because it's like, you know, it's like, how do you follow that weird timing?

• 56:21Speaker 01

  It would seem impossible.

• 56:22Billy Corgan?

  But it was like a lab, it was. And it, but it was this labor of love where they so badly wanted to support him. But it was one of those things like, how do you, how do you, how do you overdub drums out of an acoustic?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  I mean, really?

• 56:34Billy Corgan?

  Play live with singing, you know?

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Like, do you think they cut it up a little bit? Do you think?

• 56:39Billy Corgan?

  They must have done. I bet they did anything they could think of.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  It's so interesting. I never knew that.

• 56:43Billy Corgan?

  If you go back and listen to those records, I don't know if you've ever heard them. They're really beautiful.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have.

• 56:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So those were all posthumously added music.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  So odd.

• 56:52Billy Corgan?

  I think in some cases they played live with them, but I think what, I think, I can't remember of stuff that David Gilmore told me privately or stuff I've seen in interviews. But basically it got to the point where he was, he couldn't play the same thing twice. So even if they rehearsed up a take, like, okay, you play the drums, I got the bass. He would play it differently the next time.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 57:15Billy Corgan?

  So the only way they could track to it was let him do whatever number of takes, edit those together, and then try to add instrumentation to it as he kind of slid into total madness.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Geez, that's, that's.

• 57:29Billy Corgan?

  That's intense.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  That's intense.

• 57:30Billy Corgan?

  So not quite that, but, but, but I get, I get why they're, that's an impossible task.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:40Billy Corgan?

  Let's just talk one more beat about Roth. So now you're out there in front of those, those audiences. You're playing his solo stuff, Van Halen classics.

• 57:50Billy Corgan?

  How was your response from that crowd? How did you, were they, were they nice? Were they respectful? Were they thought you were insane or?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Well, here's, here's the thing. Dave said, come over, come over to the house.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  It's so strange.

• 58:04Billy Corgan?

  I know where this goes.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  You just had to like laugh about this, but he goes, come over to the house. We're going to practice some moves. Like you're going to like crouch down. I'm going to kick over you. And I was like, like in the Panama video. And he's like, exactly. I'm like, this is the greatest thing ever. And, and then I feel bad about this. It's even kind of hard to talk about. And then I get a call from Marilyn Manson camp.

• 58:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  And then I couldn't go do the.

• 58:38Billy Corgan?

  Satan called.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  I couldn't do the live shows with, with Roth.

• 58:41Billy Corgan?

  Satan called.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, Satan called. But I couldn't do the live show.

• 58:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Oh, you didn't end up touring. Oh, I didn't know that.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I joined Manson.

• 58:49Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  And I loved Manson. Loved, loved, loved. During Katie Lang, like before we go on stage, I'd be listening to Hate Anthem and.

• 58:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  You know?

• 58:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Was Dave mad at you?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  He was, he understood. And I remember.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  I.

• 59:08Billy Corgan?

  He's a smart guy.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  He's very smart, but he was very supportive and he's very, he was, he was, he's very kind. Like when the David Lee Roth, you know, and just it's, it's Dave.

• 59:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  And it's just like, he's very rational, smart, smart, smart person. I remember calling Gene and I'm, you know, you know, Gene. And I said, Gene, what should I do? Should I join Manson or stay with Roth? And he goes, join Manson. And um.

• 59:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, cuz Manson was still very much on the upswing.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, it was mechanical animals just coming out.

• 59:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  And that's what I did, and I felt bad, you know, but me and Dave are still great friends today.

• 59:53Billy Corgan?

  That's nice to hear.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  We've worked many, many, many years.

• 59:55Billy Corgan?

  He was supportive of you because again, he's smart enough to know, okay, this is a good thing for this guy.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was, he's always been so kind, and we wrote a really nice tribute to Eddie.

• 1:00:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  It's called Nothing Could Have Stopped Us Back Then, and it's a song about Van Halen.

• 1:00:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  And please, Billy, just look up the video, and it's just so touching, it's just Van Halen clips of.

• 1:00:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  And it just tells the story of how they were together.

• 1:00:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  It's incredible, but I love Dave, he's incredible person.

• 1:00:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's a shame because maybe time will solve all these things because, you know, you still have the books coming out and, you know, it won't be long, all this other Van Halen material is gonna come out on the market.

• 1:00:41Billy Corgan?

  But like all great bands, you know, there's eighty different stories that need to be told. But at the end of the day, and we go back to what we were talking about before with Even Kiss, you set aside all the stories, all the bull, all the egos, all the cocaine. It's like if, if the music wasn't awesome, nobody would give a shit. And Van Halen, when those four were together, and I, did you ever get to see that lineup together?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:01:07Billy Corgan?

  What, what tours did you see?

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Eighty-four.

• 1:01:09Billy Corgan?

  That's when I saw him. So we probably, we probably saw him two days apart.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:01:13Billy Corgan?

  Cuz they either were going from Chicago to Detroit to Detroit, Chicago.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely incredible.

• 1:01:19Billy Corgan?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  It's, it's something.

• 1:01:21Billy Corgan?

  Electric at a level that's almost hard to quantify.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  It's, it's like describing the color blue. You can't do it.

• 1:01:28Billy Corgan?

  Exactly.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  It's, it's, I, I believe Beatles, um, you know, the, I, I can't even put other bands. Let's say The Beatles and then Van Halen, it's when those four guys are together. It was so magical. Eddie was such a brilliant, brilliant genius. His rhythm playing, his.

• 1:01:53Billy Corgan?

  If, if he'd never played leads.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:01:56Billy Corgan?

  Just his rhythm playing.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:01:58Billy Corgan?

  Some of the greatest rhythm players of all time, and I, I mean, we're talking all the way through jazz guys, everybody.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Uh, like, like.

• 1:02:03Billy Corgan?

  This is insane.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  It was. So different than any other guitar player, his rhythm playing. It was so percussive, of course, you know, and being a drummer. But it was, he was so incredible and an innovator and a great unbelievable lead player. And on top of that, an unbelievable songwriter.

• 1:02:28Billy Corgan?

  And good looking and funny and all of it.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Couldn't we just put a bubble around him?

• 1:02:34Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  And just say, okay, world, just.

• 1:02:38Billy Corgan?

  But that's the beauty of seeing them in eighty four. It was like that last flash, obviously they did more touring later, but that last flash, prime of youth. The relationships were still somewhat intact. Um, how was the vibe the night you saw him? Cause the, I, I saw him from the side as I was up in the balcony at, uh, at what was called Rosemont Horizon back in the day. Near the airport. And so I could see from the side of the stage down, you know, obviously seeing the band, but then I could see Eddie's little guitar world behind. So when Ed would leave the, the stage to go have a smoke and talk to his tech, I could see into his little tech world. And Roth was doing these five minute, seven minute soliloquies, jokes.

• 1:03:22Billy Corgan?

  Whatever his, that schmaltzy was into at the time. And Eddie would just sit, I could see him shaking his head, getting pissed off. And when I met Eddie for the first time and I interviewed him for Guitar World.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Guitar World.

• 1:03:33Billy Corgan?

  Whatever, I asked him about that. And he was like, man, I just got so sick of him just talking and I got, would get so mad. Cause I just wanted to play. So I just, I learned to just leave the stage, let him have his shtick. And then when it was done, out I come. So they only played like nine songs. It was very short, but God, when they played, holy moly.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  There's, there's really, there's.

• 1:03:56Billy Corgan?

  Well, how was the vibe when you saw him?

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 1:03:59Billy Corgan?

  Were they all, cause I felt like I saw him on a bad mood night.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Oh no, in Detroit, I was, I couldn't believe it. It was unbelievable. And I think it was the MTV Lost, Lost Weekend. Cause that happened in Detroit.

• 1:04:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  And it was, I mean, it was magical. I'll never forget it, my very first. Concert was Iggy Pop Santana and the Rolling Stones in 1981.

• 1:04:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  And that was, you know, a big stadium, but nothing will compare to that 1984 show. It was just unbelievable.

• 1:04:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so speaking of Satan, um, were you around Manson before you end up in that world? Were you around them at all?

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I heard they needed a guitar player after Daisy.

• 1:04:49Billy Corgan?

  Hmm, but I'm saying, had you hung out socially with them?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay, see, the reason I bring this up is because we were making our album a door. So we used to-

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Great record.

• 1:05:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no, no.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Unbelievable record.

• 1:05:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you. That's very kind. So we were, we were going up to that house they were all living in.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:11Billy Corgan?

  So that's why I ended up doing some of the ghostwriting on that record and giving them advice on how to do certain things. So I was, saw the whole mechanical animal things playing out in real time. And it was wild. And it was wild.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  It was wild. It was wild. But I loved them so much. I didn't-

• 1:05:32Billy Corgan?

  They did have a great camaraderie during that time. It kind of all went later.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? Including like, one of them saying weird about me, like, and I never had a problem with the person. And it's just, it was like a camp that was-

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  I got great stories for that. There's reason for that stuff.

• 1:05:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  And, and it's so strange, but like, okay, so I guess I don't even know where to start. But I'll start from where I was playing with Halford.

• 1:06:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  And I wanted to see Manson so bad and he didn't play because something happened. And I was so bummed I didn't get to see them live. And I always missed it. You know, I was doing Conan O'Brien. I ran down to Roseland to watch them. And their show got like, ended like an hour earlier. So I never got a chance to see them.

• 1:06:22Billy Corgan?

  It was wild times.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I get a call from coming home from Europe. Oh, Manson wants to meet you because of the whole Trent Reznor, Nothing Records, Rob Halford thing.

• 1:06:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that makes sense.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  And so I, um, got in the band.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  And this is like what you said before. I was at Tony Siula's party, birthday party.

• 1:06:44Billy Corgan?

  They much agree of Tony Siula.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was there and I was like, you know, and I, all the guys are there and Manson was like, really nice and all the guys were really nice and I liked Pogo. I thought Pogo looked really cool and crazy.

• 1:06:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  And I had like, I really thought Pogo was cool. And I was like, hey, Pogo, at Tony's party. Wouldn't say anything and I thought, maybe he didn't hear me. Maybe he didn't hear me. Hey, Pogo, how's it going? Nothing. And I was like, and it's just me and him. I go, I'm gonna try one more time. I'm saying to myself, hey, Pogo, how you doing today? He goes, I'm not gonna say hi to you. You're only gonna be in the band for six months. And I was like, it's just like what you were saying. Like, not Manson, but the other guys were so mean to me. Like, and I just wanted nothing but for them to succeed.

• 1:07:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  I played everything, just, I was first one there, last to leave, played, you know, and I remember at rehearsal, it's funny, I never tell these stories. I was at rehearsal and we were doing that Great Big White World, that song. And Pogo was trying to remember the keyboard part. And I go, oh, it's like this, Pogo, you know, but not like, I kind of went aside and just showed him. And he went, he got so mad at me, I was like, and then Manson came in and was like, they were arguing. They were arguing like I've never seen two people argue in my life, still to this day. And I thought, oh, the band's over.

• 1:08:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's just another, that was a Tuesday.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  That was just another day. And I had no idea.

• 1:08:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  But they were, but not Manson. Manson was always, you know, really good and kind to me. But the other guys were so mean, Ginger was nice, but like, and I was like, I wonder why, you know? But it was so weird. Like, when you said that, it brought back that memory.

• 1:08:47Billy Corgan?

  I, I, I still don't know. I mean, I, like I said, I, I just was curious if you, if you were around that camp before you ended up playing with them because, you know, I was watching it happen in real time. And of course, the separation, you know, Manson starts to become a much bigger star and there was resentment. This is classic band stuff.

• 1:09:08Billy Corgan?

  Did you, I guess the gestation of the question is, and it goes back somewhat to you talking about being a studio musician in your mind. In this situation, now you're helping write music, a lot of strong music. You know, the guitar obviously is very featured in that group. Did you feel in those four or five years that you were there that you were part of it? Or you still feel, or do you feel like one foot in, one foot out? Does it make sense?

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  I felt a part of it from Manson. And I had such a respect for Twiggy. I thought he was super talented.

• 1:09:51Billy Corgan?

  He's crazy talented.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Crazy talented, great songwriter. And he was like weird with me in the beginning. But then, like, he knew I was there for, as a whole.

• 1:10:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  And then he started to open up a little bit. And we worked together and we worked really well together, I believe. We wrote some great music. I felt like I was in the mix. I felt good. I felt strong. And, but this is where it got really strange. Golden Age Road test tour and everything's going good. Everything's going great. And all of a sudden, um,

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  I was getting these weird things. Like they were like, oh, you messed up in this song. And I was like, I don't really remember that, but okay. And then it happened again. And I told our sound man, Brad Maddox, I said, Brad, can you record the show? And he recorded the show, DAT tapes back then. And they said, oh, you messed up in this part. And I go, no. And they go, yeah, you did. You messed up. And I played it and I go, no, it's right here. And they got so mad. So one of the members was trying to get me out.

• 1:11:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  And, um,

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Then, uh, you know, I, I just thought everything was so good. Like, I mean, the band was super tight, great. And, you know, yeah, I got let go. And so I was like, I was, I was surprised at it, you know?

• 1:11:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, I got, I got, uh, I got defriended at some point. Um, so I, I experienced it sort of more on the social end, but I, I watched that happen to others where it was just like the machine would roll on and people would just get kind of cleaved off. And so that's why I was asking, because, you know, you, you seem to take great possession of it. And, um, and the band was benefited from that, you know, bands like that, you don't want giggers, you know, it really has to feel like being.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I just, I wanted to stay as long as I could stay. Um, but you know, what was really incredible is that Manson gave me a call and he apologized. And I just thought that was so kind. And he's, you know, he's, I'm so sorry, you know, I knew you were, just wanted the best for the band and all that stuff. And I just thought that was really, uh, uh, very nice of him. But I wanted to stay as long, I mean, I stayed in Rob Zombie for 17 years, you know? I, I want some place to just hang my hat.

• 1:12:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:12:30Billy Corgan?

  Is that, because I mean, if you, if you, if you look at the personalities, uh, we'll include Lita Ford in this, Lita Ford, David Lee Roth, Manson, Rob Zombie, um, you know, in all, in, in those cases, it's like, you know, some charismatic person, it's like their brand. And then, you know, that you need this, this other person to bring some spark and fire. Um, it's just, up, up until you working with Motley Crue, it, it, it always felt like, at least from a public point of view, that you never quite found it. And maybe that's just because it's observational, you know, like in the five years that you were with Manson or whatever, you were in it, you said you were in it. But from my view, point of view, it's, it goes by fast.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  It does. Don't blink.

• 1:13:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Right. So I was just curious how you felt in that. Did you, does it feel, did it, did it feel mercenary? Did it feel some, I don't know, it's, it's hard for me because I'm always at the center of it. And the reason I'm asking is, is, is it has a certain sensitivity because, um,

• 1:13:36Billy Corgan?

  Through the years, working with different people, they'll kind of, kind of sometimes give me this vibe that I'm somehow responsible for their discomfort. And I'm not saying you experienced that, but they'll put that on me. And I'm like, what, what am I supposed to do with that? I mean, I'm me, I figured out how to do this. I write my own songs. I don't necessarily need a lot of help. But it doesn't mean I don't want you here. But it's like, they almost want me to bridge something I can't bridge.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:01Billy Corgan?

  Does that make sense?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, you write your songs, you write your music, your melody, your lyrics. But you want people behind you to support what you're doing.

• 1:14:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, even I'm, I'm, I'm a lot more open to contribution than people would, would think.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  I mean, Jimmy.

• 1:14:19Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 1:14:20Billy Corgan?

  Well, that, that one fell out of the sky.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  It's like, geez.

• 1:14:24Billy Corgan?

  I saw a clip today of, um, uh, Taylor Hawkins' son, uh, playing, uh, our song Silver Live somewhere in Europe. Just playing these, and he's like, and, you know, I was there. I mean, you know, 1992 when.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:14:39Billy Corgan?

  Playing those crazy beats. And I was like, I'll take that, you know?

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  But Mance was always nice to me.

• 1:14:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  You know, he was always nice to me. So I was crushed, you know, when I got fired and, uh.

• 1:14:54Billy Corgan?

  Did they give you, that's, I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's his cruel sense of humor. Did, did he say anything in particular? Was it Tony that gave you the ax?

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  It was Tony, you know, and they just, he just said, oh, he just wants to write with other people. And I was like, okay, but yeah.

• 1:15:07Billy Corgan?

  To be fair, and I'm not defending him, to be fair, uh, cause I had a conversation with him in 1998.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:14Billy Corgan?

  About this very subject, because I was around the mechanical animal stuff. I tried to explain to him, because he's not a very musical person, you know, he's very conceptual in his artistic thinking. But he's not a musician, maybe is a better way to put it. You know, I mean, like you and I could sit, even if we've never written together, and we could write a song because we speak a common language. And I tried to explain to him that, you know, he's, he was going to forever be dependent on whoever was in the room with him, because he couldn't write his own tunes. And he saw that as a form of freedom. And I said, no, you're going to ultimately find this a form of enslavement. And I wasn't telling him to get a task cam and learn to write his own songs. But I said, the source of your frustration is never going to go away.

• 1:15:58Billy Corgan?

  So you need to have a better sense of your collaborators and understand why they're valuable, because you think you can trade them in and out, but you're not going to find that's that easy. Like Roth and Eddie.

• 1:16:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, or even Roth and, I mean, even Eddie and Hagar. Yeah. You know, when I interviewed Eddie in ninety-eight for Guitar World. Guitar World. That was

• 1:16:24Billy Corgan?

  Sammy had left maybe within the last six to nine months, and there was a ton of acrimony in the air. Absolutely. And Eddie was going on at length. Oh, absolutely. None of that got printed, of course, and that's fine. But I got the firsthand blasts Oh, yeah. of how he felt, and but it's the same thing, right?

• 1:16:43Billy Corgan?

  You know, Rick Nielsen about Robyn Zander. And it's like, you've got one of, you know, you've got one of the greatest vocalists, if not the greatest vocalist of all time. Absolutely. Uh, Rick Ocasek complaining to me about Ben Ohr in the Cars. Really? Oh, yeah. Because I worked with Rick around the same age, late nineties. This, it's this frustration of meeting other people. But to me, I, I sort of, I'm not making it about me, but I'm saying I sort of, I sort of crossed that bridge a long time ago, that I was gonna need people. I was okay with being self-contained, and I would be like, okay, well, I need a drummer, you know what I mean? But, but in the case of somebody like Manson, I also saw where he had a hard time understanding

• 1:17:28Billy Corgan?

  that you can't just dream your crazy dystopia into reality. You need people to actually implement it into, into real things. And I remember having a very specific conversation about Alice Cooper's band. And I love Alice Cooper. Of course. But here, you know, when the time we're taping this, the Alice Cooper Band just put out their first album together in like fifty years. And if you're an Alice Cooper fan like I am, um, and he made a lot of great music after the band, but that original band had something that's a one of a kind thing. And same thing with Manson, when that original band dissipated, Yeah. including whoever doesn't like me in that band, something got lost because Manson became, it became the name Marilyn Manson. Right.

• 1:18:13Billy Corgan?

  But, but I was standing there actually saying, this is a lot more valuable than you think it is, because it just doesn't happen the way you think it happens. And we communicated.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Like musically in the studio, we really had a connection. And writing like, you know, disposable teens and the nobodies and fight song and this is the

• 1:18:36Billy Corgan?

  I still hear that stuff. That's how you know it's working, right? It's still there.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  And we did it like this. And it was like, we really had an incredible connection writing wise. It was, it was great.

• 1:18:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last bit.

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:52Billy Corgan?

  Everything's just swimming along, motley crew.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. Unbelievable, right? It's so weird to even say.

• 1:19:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, here you are.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so strange.

• 1:19:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So 2022, I wrote, this is my own quote. I'm going to quote myself. And I didn't, I wrote this in my notes, but I had to quote myself. This is my quote for you. You are uniquely voiced for that circus.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  That's great. That's a bumper sticker that I should have on my car.

• 1:19:23Billy Corgan?

  Because there was a time, I still am very fond of Nikki, but there was a time where we were kind of friendish and spoke to him a lot in that period. And then I've worked with Tommy and I've known Tommy for years.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just, sorry to interrupt. We just went to Oasis and I said, oh, I'm going to see Billy. And he didn't have, he just was saying so many great things about you. He loves you.

• 1:19:47Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's sweet.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  He loves you.

• 1:19:48Billy Corgan?

  I love Tommy too. So I feel like I have a really good grasp on the gig because I know two of the principals pretty well. You know, I've spoken for hours and hours and hours with Nikki about songwriting and music and I've worked with Tommy. Fantastic musician, you know, just natural talent. In fact, speaking of Alice Cooper, I was thinking of something to tell you today. I was in the studio working with Tommy on this album of mine from 2014. And, and I wanted to play a certain thing and I go, you know, it's like that song by Alice Cooper, 18, "Egos."

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Very Tommy with the sticks. He's like, bro, don't really know that one. I go, Tommy, how the do you not know? I'm eighteen by Alice Cooper. He goes, I just didn't really listen to that.

• 1:20:39Billy Corgan?

  But only Tommy could say that with a straight face and you're like, really? How do you not know that song? And so of course, I'm thinking, you know, and he's like, I guess I was into something else. And I'm like, I know exactly what you were into. It wasn't the radio, right?

• 1:20:56Billy Corgan?

  So just walk me through the basics of them coming to, because I know you had a somewhat of a relation, musical relationship with Nicki that went back before. How much did you know them personally?

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I was so close with Nicki, like, I mean, so close. We talked like 10 times a day and just like, what, just chit chatting for years and years, decades, you know, like, and I knew Tommy, I played on some of his stuff and I was kind of always in the, in the mix. You know, and I, I, you know, knew Mick really well, talked to him. They were just my friends, you know? And there was not one time where there was ever talk like, oh, you should never, not once. We would just go to the mall.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ride our bikes and, you know, go to Neiman Marcus and try on funny clothes and stuff, you know?

• 1:21:55Billy Corgan?

  Spangled jeans.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  So it was, um, it's just like playing with your, your buddies, you know? It's, it's very, it's very strange how it all came.

• 1:22:07Billy Corgan?

  Am I, am I correct in assuming that they figured out it was you before they called you and they never auditioned anybody?

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's like, I mean, I'm around those guys so much playing guitar. And I've been playing these songs since I was, since the records came out.

• 1:22:23Billy Corgan?

  Such great.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  When they gave me the setlist, they were like, all right, learn these. Like, I know all these. I know these. Like, I could go play a show tonight.

• 1:22:32Billy Corgan?

  Such great guitar playing. Such a cool.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Great guitar player.

• 1:22:36Billy Corgan?

  One of a kind guitar player. I just love his playing.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  I love him. Absolutely love him. And it's just, I don't change a note.

• 1:22:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  I don't change. Why would you? It's just like taking a piece of classical music and going, that doesn't work.

• 1:22:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  You play exactly how it was recorded. Now, I'm, I love it so much that I will play exactly how it's recorded. Not how it was played live, but because I would go see bands when I was little and I would love these certain guitar licks or certain drum fills and they wouldn't do it.

• 1:23:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  But when I saw like Rush on the Signal store, it was exactly how it was. And that's how I'd like to do it.

• 1:23:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Because people have grown up with these songs, including myself.

• 1:23:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  And they want to hear it just like how it was on the record. It's perfect.

• 1:23:32Billy Corgan?

  Why would you change it?

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Why would you change it? It's perfect.

• 1:23:35Billy Corgan?

  Uh, because I was listening to the What's That with the Pentagon on the cover.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Shout the devil.

• 1:23:40Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I was listening to it recently. It's like, it's like a perfect record. It's like,

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:45Billy Corgan?

  I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change anything.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:23:48Billy Corgan?

  All of it. It's like, it's really is a perfect record.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  And the videos, you know, the videos were on MTV, every other video, you know? And it's, it's weird. Like, when I'm on stage with them and we're playing these big places and I see Vince like singing Home Sweet Home and I see Nikki or Tintin, I'm like, what is, this is weird, you know? It feels like, it's like in Hot Tub Time Machine where the guy like imagined himself in Molly. It was, it's like that, you know?

• 1:24:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, I think it's a credit to how they, how they view you as a person. I mean, it's, I'm not saying it's not about music because you got to be able to do the gig. But I, when I saw that you got the gig, I totally understood why they wanted to work with you because it's a weird spot, right? You got a guy who's obviously, uh, mix, you know, his physical situation is well documented. Um, and it's, it's one of those great weird rock.

• 1:24:49Billy Corgan?

  Things, it's, you know, it's, it's sad because as a fan, you want to see the band. So when they, when they picked you, it made total sense. It's like, here's somebody we can trust. Somebody who's gonna do it right. So we don't have to worry about this person, especially with everything they've been through. It makes sense to me. So I'm glad, at least my sense of it is that it's a happy gig for you.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  It's a great gig. It's a great gig. Cause they know I love them and I love the music and that's how. You know, I, I, I go to rehearsal and do a gig every day. I just treat it with such respect.

• 1:25:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay, two things. Cause we don't need to belabor it. I gotta say now, cause I'm a guitar whore.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:30Billy Corgan?

  The telly.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:32Billy Corgan?

  I'm like, ah.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:25:33Billy Corgan?

  I know you like your telly, but I'm like, ah.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 1:25:37Billy Corgan?

  I'm not asking you to defend it.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:25:39Billy Corgan?

  But did you ever consider going like, uh?

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  It's like.

• 1:25:46Billy Corgan?

  I'm really putting you on, I don't, I don't do gossip on my show, but this is like, this is as tough a question as I ask.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, when you're coming into your own and you're like a certain kind of woman. You're like, either like boobs or a butt or something like that. And that's how I was with the telly.

• 1:26:03Billy Corgan?

  So it's Don Rich's fault?

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's totally Don Rich's fault. It is totally Don Rich's fault. It's just something in my brain went boing and I like, loved it.

• 1:26:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  I just loved it. And, you know, um, my first real guitar was a Stratocaster.

• 1:26:22Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  And like you, you know, of course play Stratocaster and love that strat and made it.

• 1:26:28Billy Corgan?

  Still love that thing.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Some of the greatest songs ever on that strat.

• 1:26:30Billy Corgan?

  Fender, but I love that strat.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, I didn't love it. I was waiting for my telly, you know?

• 1:26:39Billy Corgan?

  I get it. Okay. I get it. Cause I, Jimmy Chamberlain, actually my first strat, he came to me and he said, I got the strat. It was like a 74 bullet head strap. And I said, okay, I tried it. Like, how much? He goes $270. So I, um, I bought it. And that became the, the first pumpkin guitar, the one that got stolen that I got back after 27 years stolen in Detroit.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  That's right. You told that on this.

• 1:27:07Billy Corgan?

  St. Andrews Hall.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  At St. Andrews Hall.

• 1:27:09Billy Corgan?

  1992, somebody walked out the back door with it. Just got it back like whatever a few years ago.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  You were talking about it on one of the shows, one of the episodes.

• 1:27:17Billy Corgan?

  So, um, so, okay, so that becomes the sound for me and, and like you, I understand what you're saying. As soon as I had the guitar, I was like, this is what I've been looking for my whole life.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Billy Corgan?

  This is like, this is the exact feel and the thing. And I could do the Jimi Hendrix thing. And it was like, okay, cool. So about five years later, I'm somewhere at a bar or something in Chicago. This guy comes up and he goes, he's still, he's still playing that Stratocaster. And I go, yeah. He goes, uh, did you get it from Jimmy? And I go, yeah, yeah. He sold it to me. He goes, you know, he stole that from me.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Oh my.

• 1:27:50Billy Corgan?

  He goes, Jimmy and I used to be roommates or something. And he goes, and I'm thinking like, oh shit, he's gonna ask the guitar. He goes, it's cool. You can have it. I'm glad you're playing it. He goes, how much did he charge you for it? And I go, 270 bucks. He goes, oh, that explains it. That was the rent.

• 1:28:07Billy Corgan?

  So Jimmy didn't even upsell the guitar to like 300 so he gets the burger money.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Brilliant. That's the greatest story ever.

• 1:28:14Billy Corgan?

  Stole his friend's guitar, sold it to his bandmate, paid the rent. And then the guy, and this guy was, he was like, you can, you can have it. It's all good.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  But think about this story. Think about this story. But think about how that guitar found you and you wrote all those great songs.

• 1:28:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I get it. So you don't have to.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  But no, no, no. Seriously. That wrote these songs.

• 1:28:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Did you ever see The Red Violin?

• 1:28:36Billy Corgan?

  No, but I know.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  It's a great movie about this violin that's, you know, the hundreds and hundreds of usals and goes all, it's, I mean, it's the same kind of thing. It's unbelievable.

• 1:28:48Billy Corgan?

  So you are the telly and the telly is you. And there you are playing a telly.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  And I'm so proud. I'm so proud.

• 1:28:54Billy Corgan?

  All right, cool. I get that. Okay. One more tough question. Um, I know we talked a bit about you doing your, your solo records. I'm just curious why you don't. There's got to be somebody in here saying, can't you have a song with a singer? And we could do a single. And is there a reason you keep your solo records without vocals?

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Just because I have a singer. I think I've always had a singer. If it was, you know, Manson or Zombie and now Vince Neil. But that's my singer. So I just kind of like just go nuts, you know? And yeah. And that's just, I just love to just go crazy and play. I love to go out and play so much. I'll play anywhere with electricity, you know? And I'm not doing this to like push something, but I have this idea, which is going to come to fruition next year. I'm going to do 50 states in 50 days, 50 shows.

• 1:29:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  You know, so 50 in a row.

• 1:29:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay, now when you, let's go back to our beautiful wives. When you sit down at the kitchen table, you go, I got this idea. She says.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  The just disappointing side.

• 1:30:10Billy Corgan?

  I think we end right there. I don't think we're going to talk. Thank you.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you.