John David Washington, Vol. III

It's a good season for the Washington family. Denzel is getting awards attention for a scene-stealing turn in GLADIATOR II. Malcolm Washington has made an impressive feature directing debut with THE PIANO LESSON. And speaking of that film, John David Washington has just delivered a fantastic performance bringing him back to the podcast once again, this time for a live taping at the 92nd Street Y. Josh and John David discuss the actors journey from athletics to the stage and screen and how he's navigated the long shadow of his iconic dad. SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Uncommon Goods – Visit UncommonGoods.com/podcast/HappySad for 15% off BetterHelp -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BetterHelp.com/HSC ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for 10% off Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Josh Horowitz?

  Is fear of failure a motivator? Is that something that drives you?

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Dang, I thought you said we weren't gonna get too deep, man.

• 0:09Josh Horowitz?

  No, I didn't. He asked me that backseat, and I didn't comment. I didn't say anything.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Yes, it is. It is. It is.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 0:23Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys. How's it going, everybody? Thank you so much for coming out tonight. I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy, Sad, Confused, we're live at the 92nd Street Y with John David Washington. Are you ready, guys? Yes, you're ready. This audience here in New York City has just seen a fantastic film, a remarkable adaptation of one of August Wilson's seminal works, The Piano Lesson. It's currently on Netflix, but they got a special treat to see it on the big screen, and I'm sure you'll agree with me. It's a fantastic, special piece of work about family and legacy, and it is led by this fantastic performance by the actor I'm about to bring out, John David.

• 1:04Josh Horowitz?

  But it's also anchored by this crazy ensemble of actors that, by the way, won a Gotham Award just yesterday. So, yeah.

• 1:16Josh Horowitz?

  You know John David Washington's work. He's been killing it in recent years in Black Klansman and Tenet. He killed it in this part on Broadway. If you got a chance to see him there, he was amazing, and it's so thrilling to see him bring it to the big screen alongside his brother Malcolm making his feature film-directing debut. Unbelievable. We're gonna get into that and a lot of other things tonight. Please give a warm welcome to John David Washington, everybody.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  He's good, ain't he?

• 1:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right, buddy.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations again, man.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:58Josh Horowitz?

  A lot to celebrate over Thanksgiving holidays in the Washington household, I would think.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah, it was, um, I know the greens and the mac and cheese tasted a little better this year for some reason. I think that's the shout out, you know, Dear Mama shout out that Malcolm had.

• 2:16Josh Horowitz?

  So talk to me a little bit about, I mean, we're gonna talk a lot about this journey. It's been a, it's been a hell of a road here. You, you brought this, this work to the stage and it was a big moment for you. I wanna start with the stage version of this first before we get to the film because I got a chance to see it on stage, I'm sure some people here in the audience saw it. Yeah, it was unbelievable.

• 2:41Josh Horowitz?

  And that was a big moment for you, I know. You felt, I've heard you talk about this, why was it such a make or break moment you felt for you to bring this character to life on the stage?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Couple of reasons, an apple pie worth of reasons. It's, it's, you know, he's one of the American great playwrights, August Wilson for one. We're at the Barrymore, you know, onstage on Broadway, my debut. We got Sam Jackson who originated the role of Boy Willie in 1987, then ended up, yeah, and then ended up being Charles Dutton's understudy when they brought it to Broadway. Charles Dutton, I think he went on to win a Tony, and he's been public about, you know, how he felt about that, Sam. And, um, so I just, you know, I felt like I had, I didn't wanna let him down, I didn't wanna let Latanya Jackson down, who was the first African American woman to direct an August Wilson play on Broadway, you know, so yeah, it was, it was a lot of pressure

• 3:36Speaker 01

  in that, and for me, it was the character, Boy Willie, the words I got to say, and what August Wilson wrote. I mean, it was the only time, I believe, that the character had to come to me.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  And that's harder because I got my technical stuff, I got all my backstory and all my stuff, but all I had to do was let the character come to me and that was tough. And so to do that every night was quite a thrill and a great challenge.

• 4:03Josh Horowitz?

  What do you mean by that? When you say the character comes to you, are you talking about the words are there? Like the work is there, you're working with some of the best writing ever made for the stage. Is it just about not chasing a result and just letting it come to you in a way? Like when you say you have to let the work come to you, the role come to you, what are you talking about?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  So when you read and listen to August Wilson, there's just such, the musicality's there, it's just such a rhythm of the African-American experience, right? So that can seem kinda easy to play. Like it's, oh, I know this guy, I know this rhythm. But when you start to dissect what his words are, like when he talks about, "I went out and killed me a cat, and that's when I discovered the power of death." See, a nigga that ain't afraid to die is the worst kinda nigga for the white man. So like, thinking about that, what that really means in 1936 and connecting that to even what it means now was shocking, the connection, and unfortunate that the times haven't changed that much. And I had that kinda responsibility. So I didn't have to go necessarily go, "What does that mean?"

• 5:09Speaker 01

  I know exactly what it means if you just listen to and bring all your issues and all your upbringing with those lines.

• 5:15Josh Horowitz?

  So was August Wilson taught in the house? Like, do you remember a time that you didn't know August Wilson in the Washington household?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Actually, not really. The first time I saw, I was really made aware of August Wilson was, um, I mean, he's kinda always been around and I know the piano lesson painting, but I know August Wilson had said once, he just liked the way those two words looked together. I mean, that's the way his mind worked. Like, it was not about necessarily the sound or what it means, he just liked the words, they look good together. But I got to see Two Trains Running in Atlanta, and then I saw Fences, and I was hooked. And then when I started acting, I picked up seven guitars, and I just like, one day, I gotta, I have to do this onstage.

• 5:57Josh Horowitz?

  So were you in kinda the back of your brain building to this over a number of years? You're obviously accumulating these great credits, you're working with Spike and Chris Nolan, and you're showing off your chops with the best in the business. Is there like a voice in the back of your brain like, "That's great, and yeah, I'm leveling up, but like at some point, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to try it onstage and see what I can do."

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Honestly, I was, I thought it was gonna be Shakespeare first, you know? I really wanted to do Taming of the Shrew. And I, when I, when I started looking at this, I realized, no, this is my rites of passage. Now, so, like, at the time when I started studying, I studied at HB Studios, Rochelle Oliver, may she rest in peace, uh, she was my, my teacher there. And I, that's when I came into August Wilson, like, as a, as a actor. And I always thought, like, I'd, I'd do this one day, maybe, but, like, later in life, I'd be the doker character, you know, something like that. Uh, so it was more about a Shakespeare thing. And then when I found this to be a reality of what I can really do now, I was like, oh, my God, no, this is it. My life is just in front of me right now. And I felt a lot of pressure about that because the, you know, some of the figures

• 7:03Speaker 01

  you mentioned, I felt like I've been so blessed and, and, and had great opportunities to do these works, these films, these incredible massive films. But people didn't really understand or maybe get who I was yet as an art, as an actor. I thought, maybe, and you shouldn't think like this, but I did, honestly, maybe the people will get me. Maybe people will understand my artistry, if I can nail it, you know?

• 7:26Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you have an athlete's mentality. We know that. I know that from our past conversations.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Sorry about that.

• 7:31Josh Horowitz?

  No, if you want a good drinking game, every time John David makes a, a athletic metaphor, take a shot. Uh, it's just part of you, part of your DNA, right?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Yes, can't deny it.

• 7:41Josh Horowitz?

  Is fear of failure a motivator? Is that something that drives you?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Dang, see, I thought you said we weren't gonna get too deep, man.

• 7:50Josh Horowitz?

  No, I didn't. You, he asked me that backstage, and I didn't comment, I didn't say anything.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, it is, it is, it, it, it is. Um, I try, it's bad fuel, but it, it definitely is. And I thought, um, because of my football experience, I was told to just keep working hard and you'll get your shot, and I never did. So, I, I've seen people get cut, you know, the last week of the season, I, I thought I was gonna be cut any day, any, any day. So, I don't care what number I am on the call sheet, I'm always like, man, is today the day? Am I gonna get replaced? And so, um, I thought, well, with this work, I can't be replaced. No, I won't have that, that logic or that kind of. ...of mine anymore if I can get this right. So that was part of the motivation, yeah.

• 8:32Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so let's talk about bringing this work from stage to screen. I mean, as remarkable as it is to see you deliver this performance, I gotta say, the shocking, most shocking thing for me is Malcolm. Malcolm, your brother, I mean, I'd never seen any of his work, this is his feature film debut. It's such an accomplished piece of work and it's, we're seeing the dawn of a great filmmaker.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Thank you, yeah.

• 8:54Josh Horowitz?

  Like, it's really amazing.

• 8:57Josh Horowitz?

  Talk to me a little bit, how does this come together? Like, I mean, we know, look, your dad has talked about wanting to create the cycle on the, on the big screen, produce all of these works. So does, like, Malcolm raise his hand and be like, hey, what about me? Like, piano lesson, this could be a good fit? Like, how did it kind of develop?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  I mean, actually, I wasn't aware of his origin story to this project until this press tour. And apparently, uh, my mom told my pops that Malcolm had some ideas. I guess they had a conversation and he just wanted to, you know, write, you know, a script for it.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  And then he did like a sizzle reel, I saw that, I was like, I was like, oh, yeah. Honestly, though, I wanted, if, if I'd have known when I was doing the play, he wanted to do it, I'd have been like, yeah, let's go. I'm just a fan of his, the way he understands films and breaks films down. I saw his senior thesis, he's directed a, a music video that was, was fantastic. So, we, the family, have been wanting him to do something for a long time now, ever since he graduated. Like, what are you waiting for? Let's go, let's go. And he said this one, I was like, whoa, really? This, this, you want, you want to start with this one?

• 10:03Josh Horowitz?

  Start here?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, Michael, you don't want to do a little cute, little short, little... Go get him a project, but okay. And I'm like, I was right there with him. But I was excited, then we, we talked and, you know, he showed me his lookbook and all that, but I'm gonna be honest, I didn't need to see none of that. I'm like, just, I could just go, let's just shoot, man, I just, I'm ready for you to do this. I don't need you to pitch me or anything, you know what I mean? I wanted to go, I wanted to go for him.

• 10:26Josh Horowitz?

  The thing, and I'm sure you guys are getting this from the early moments of our conversations, that I've discovered about you and our conversations over the years. And I gather this from hearing Malcolm talk. You live and breathe this stuff. These guys love movies so damn much. That's true, yeah. All you do is talk movies, my sense. So, this must just be like fantasy camp, like working with your brother, going back. You must recall like childhood, like we talked about movies in our bedrooms growing up, and now we get to play with the toys and do this.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  It's so crazy, just this whole run, seeing him talk about his film, talking about his process. You know, my process, I'm like, oh, okay, hi, my G. What is your process, young man?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  But because of our reverence, because of how much we respect, we grew up on this stuff, you know, on movies. I got lost in movies. I remember getting mad at my mother. She took the twins, Malcolm and his twin sister, to see the movie Life. I don't know if you guys have seen that one. And they were mad, they were like mad young. And I couldn't watch rated R movies like until I got older, but they got to watch that. And she took them to the movie theater. I was so upset because like, ma, they're too young to be, I had to wait, you know, I had to, but she was like, no, but they had to see it, it's a classic, instant classic. I was like, yeah. But that's kind of like our life. I remember seeing like Mad Dog and Glory, remember?

• 11:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, Robert De Niro.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Robert De Niro and Uma Thurman, like I was watching it with them. I knew, I was like, I'm not supposed to be watching somebody's scenes. But, you know, if you've seen the movie, but I was just connected to it. I knew every, I think it might be a little weird, but I knew every line to the movie Glory. Every line, I had the blue suit, I had the rifle, that's all I wanted to do. So, this is, you know, talking about Thanksgiving, this is what we do, we talk film all the time.

• 12:13Josh Horowitz?

  What's the most underrated performance of Denzel Washington? What doesn't get, I mean, he gets a lot of credit, but there's some, there's some hidden gems in there.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  I won't say the most underrated, but I don't, I feel like he didn't get enough credit for, he played a lawyer, Beckett, in Philadelphia.

• 12:30Josh Horowitz?

  Philadelphia.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Like, you're right, I, like, Jonathan Demme with, you know, and he got his Jonathan Demme close-ups, and he delivered that speech, like, the, the big speech he has in the courtroom, our general public's hatred, our loathing, our fear of homosexuals, and that general, that hair and that feature affected our client, you know, and I was like, man, he, and the cue, and the score, I just, I don't know, like, you can't have the Tom Hanks performance without his.

• 12:54Josh Horowitz?

  Hundred percent.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  I, I, I loved that film.

• 12:56Josh Horowitz?

  I, I, I name-checked that when I, I got a chance to talk to Mr. Hanks recently, and like, I think people don't remember also what that movie was at the time.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Oh, so, like, he's on the other side of the LGBTQ+ discussion, right? But he's a black lawyer in Philadelphia, dealing with his own stuff, and then how he, how he learns and evolves as a person, as a black man in Philadelphia, fighting, with, using the law to fight for equal rights, I mean, it was ahead of its time.

• 13:23Josh Horowitz?

  And not to mention, we're not gonna only talk about Philadelphia, I promise, but just to say, because I'm a film nerd like you, like, Demme coming off of Silence of the Lambs, your dad coming off of Malcolm X, Hanks winning Oscars left and right, like, everybody using their powers to tell a story like that at that time, it's, it's the best example of using mainstream movie-making, I think.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  And it's, and it's movies like that, that I'm trying to chase, that, that say something, if I could be a part of, like, what I've, what I've been able, in my, in my opinion, I've been able to be a part of some films that are saying something, whether they connect with people or not, I, I don't think they can deny that these filmmakers I've gotten to work with have a point of view, and, and you, you can get, you can get lost in those, in those stories as a, just as a moviegoer, and that, that's what I live for.

• 14:08Josh Horowitz?

  I want to talk a little bit more about, like, I cited the ensemble in this, and many of them are from the Broadway production, and then you have folks like Corey Hawkins, Daniel Dedwiler, come on, amazing, all amazing, um, how does that shake up the dynamic? Obviously, there are a lot of changes made because, again, Malcolm makes this feel like a movie movie, which is to his credit, but also Danielle and, and Corey, they bring their own, their own flavor to this, did it shake you up in a good way?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  I mean, it's like we added LeBron James and Dwyane Wade to the Heedles or something. Like it's

• 14:45Josh Horowitz?

  I told you, sports references. Do a shot.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  He teed it up for me. I mean, like, Corwin was coming off of his Tony-nominated performance, Top Dog Underdog. He was incredible. I got to see him during previews. I mean, he's one of my favorite actors, you know, and I think about Mr. Potts, who was in the play, but the kind of actor that he is, he's done all the August Wilson plays. And then Danielle coming in, and you know, y'all saw what it is. You seen her until, you see the versatility there. So you just up your game. You get excited when you get these kind of performers. And what they bring energetically, what they bring technically, and their physicality, and their pure joy and love for the art, you know. And I know it's cliche to say, but I really feel that when people are doing it, not because they have to, because they want to, or maybe they have to to survive, maybe they have to

• 15:33Speaker 01

  because it makes them whole, it makes them feel alive, you know, I can relate to that.

• 15:38Josh Horowitz?

  I almost think of the scene with you and Sam and Ray singing, everyone singing at the table.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Verda.

• 15:47Josh Horowitz?

  It's like an action set piece in the middle of the film. It's like, it's such a centerpiece of the movie. Can you give me a little insight into what it was like to shoot that?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Well, as you saw the play, we took that from the play. But it took on a different meaning, being in the space, in the house, embracing the quieter moments, you know, and really feeling the stumps, not doing it for the audience, but doing it for ourselves. Sharing that traumatic experience, parchment farm, the prison system, which was basically another version of slavery legally. You know, a lot of men went through that system that didn't deserve it, you know, and it's a very dark, dark time for a lot of them. And that kind of trauma bonding, different generations of it, is such a powerful thing. And they're drinking, and they're sort of laughing, making light of the dark times, but then they start singing the pain.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  And it doesn't matter where you're from, what color you are, you can feel that, I think. Well, that's the hope, I shouldn't presume.

• 16:45Josh Horowitz?

  We can feel it. Yeah, we can say that.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  But honestly, so we felt it more, or differently, I should say, during the film and then filming it. And then when we sat down and just left it quiet, that's when it really seeped in. Like, that's when I felt really connected to all my ancestors in that moment, who've gone through that system, or gone through slavery, and just have survived the, you know, the South.

• 17:15Josh Horowitz?

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• 18:41Josh Horowitz?

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• 19:27Josh Horowitz?

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• 20:10Josh Horowitz?

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• 20:43Josh Horowitz?

  We talked about the linkages of the past through the great Samuel L. Jackson, who originated this role. It's such like an atypical role for Sam, which is like really exciting to see. We're used to kind of seeing him as kind of like the loudest one in the room. And he's the watcher. He's the viewer. He's kind of silent through a lot and conveys so much because he is Samuel L. Jackson and he can. I also know, I mean, he's been on the stage before and I've talked to him about theater versus film. And he has very specific views. What did he share with you? He said to me, because I asked him about kind of like, you know, the old adage of like, do you play it differently onstage, during film, are you wearing the camera? He threw all of that out. He said, there's no difference. Just do it.

• 21:26Josh Horowitz?

  That's what he said to me. And he also said, and I would love to hear your comment on this, he doesn't deliver variations, or at least he told me. He delivers what he wants to deliver to the director. He's not going to do 12 different versions because he doesn't want to be screwed in the edit, basically, by giving the wrong version of a scene. Is that jived at all with what he said, or is he lying to me?

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Wow, I guess I saw a little something different. Well, I... What I saw even more, what was even more powerful, seeing it come together, are his subtleties, which you really get to see in the film. And to me, that speaks to his versatility. I'm like, where is his Academy Award at, at this point? Like, when you see, like, one of the best roles I've ever seen, one of the best characters I've ever seen was him in Django. He was insane what he was doing. And then you can cut to this, you know what I mean? It's like, that's the kind of dexterity I'm talking about. That's the kind, and that takes experience, longevity. And honestly, what I caught most of it was, was at his age, what he's accomplished, he still freaking cares.

• 22:25Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, and he's lived with this play, he knows everybody's lines. He's lived with this play for 30-plus years. You know, he's like, this is very personal. He's talked about how he relapsed because of the experience of having to be the understudy when he originated the role. So you're talking about pressure from me, but I saw the love. And once I got his respect, I was off to the races, both he and Michael Potts. But yeah, I, he's very professional and he delivers the way he delivers. I saw some variations, though. I saw some things he was doing different. He, you know, he's got like a 15-page monologue explaining the piano and our family. He delivered that thing every night. That Samuel Jackson, he didn't have to do that. He was doing it off-camera. Same energy, same thing. I'm like, that's what I'm talking about. You know, when actors, sometimes they get the tripping, they get the ego going,

• 23:10Speaker 01

  they act like they don't want to be a part of the company. I think about people, figures like him. If he's good enough to do it, then you have no excuse.

• 23:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, you can look to your dad, too. He's going to be on The Fellow on Broadway. I mean, late 60s, like, he doesn't, he's done it all. He doesn't need to do more.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:26Josh Horowitz?

  But he's still pushing.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  It's about to work.

• 23:28Josh Horowitz?

  Um, all right, we alluded to kind of like the background, but I want to go back a little bit. So it sounds like you, in the back of your head, whether you knew it or not, you knew this was gonna be your path eventually, maybe. Like, was, was your act of rebellion denying that and going the athletic route? Like, what we, put me in your head a little bit of why you put off pursuing acting for as long as you did.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Okay, uh, let me see.

• 23:54Josh Horowitz?

  Let's get the couch out.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  I was like, my goodness.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  You know, my dad got really popular, man. Like, he's, he's the man. Like, Malcolm X hit and my life changed.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  You know, I, I remember him bringing home a trumpet when he was practicing for Mo Better Blues. I remember when he dyed his hair red, when he was getting ready for these roles. And I just used to love it. I just loved, you know, he walked me around New York spitting Richard III lines because he was doing, I saw him with the tights and the mullet, you know, just getting like, that was a magic trick. He don't speak like that at the house. And look at him now. That's, you know what I mean? So that, to me, was always about. But as he got bigger, you know, I felt like society, or like my world changed and my relationship to it. People changed, how they were treating me. So I felt this need to protect myself and felt the need to, to find my identity. So I found it through sports.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  So I thought maybe I'd take a backseat to the art or to acting because I, I want them to know me for, for something else. I want them to just know me. I didn't realize that you can know me through the art, through the work. But I needed to go through what I did football-wise first. But I think stuff started to change after Malcolm X.

• 25:05Josh Horowitz?

  Is, is it true that your mom kind of was the one that kind of knew, like, you would eventually get to where you're at? Like, she, she saw in you your propensity towards, towards the arts more than your dad even did?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Well, she, I definitely told her first. I didn't tell my dad until I booked Ballers. But she, you know, we were running lines, my mom and I. She, she, she's like an acting coach in a way, but, uh, yeah.

• 25:28Josh Horowitz?

  You still, you still run lines with your mom, do you?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  To this day, every script I get that I know I'm gonna do, we're running lines and she's giving me the harshest notes. She gave me so many notes for the play, too. Like, I'm thinking, like, we're just gonna go to dinner and, like, talk about the week and how I did. She saw it like five times that week, by the way. And she's like, so thoughts, John David, you wanna order the ribs? Thoughts?

• 25:47Josh Horowitz?

  Let me bring out my script with some notes here.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  What you were there on Saturday, Ma? Wait, when did you? So, I mean, I love it. I mean, she cares deeply. In a way, I felt like I was representing her, too. Like, I talk about pressure because, you know, she has her masters in the arts. She was on Off Broadway, Jerry's Girls. I always joke with her. She ended up having me and missed the run of Jerry's Girls. I know, that's the look.

• 26:10Josh Horowitz?

  Your fault.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  So, how about this? She didn't tell me that I'm leaving for Miami to go shoot Ballers to start my life. And she tells me this story and says, "All right, good luck." I was like, "Wait, what, Ma? You had me instead? I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm gonna do everything I can. I'm gonna tell The Rock, 'I'm doing this for you.'" I was like, but this is what I think about, like, her mastery and her craft and what it means to be on stage and what it means to be an actor, that right, that privilege. So, um, yeah, I include her in all of it because of that, a lot of that is the reason.

• 26:43Josh Horowitz?

  So, you make the shift after suffering an injury. If I could snap my fingers now and you could be an NFL Hall of Famer instead of an actor, would you take that bargain?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  What? You talk about Hall of Fame? No, I'm actor all day, every day.

• 26:57Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I'm just checking.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:00Josh Horowitz?

  Making sure the dream is real, that the passion is real.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  And shout out to all the Hall of Famers. That's great. And I love football. I needed football, for sure, but this is, I never felt more alive.

• 27:12Josh Horowitz?

  So, did you feel, when you step into that first audition, which was for Ballers, I believe?

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Sheila Jaffe, yeah.

• 27:17Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel alive, petrified, when you're walking in the room? Do they, do you feel the baggage of like, "They know who I am. They know who's son I am." Like, do you feel that hanging over you at the time?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Well, I was pretty drugged up because I had torn my Achilles. I was in a boot, so I was on some pain medication. So, I guess that just...

• 27:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  I'm like...

• 27:35Josh Horowitz?

  Probably for the best.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  "You want me to stand here, there?" "I am Ricky Jarrett. Let's do this."

• 27:41Josh Horowitz?

  He's so free with his body. What's he doing?

• 27:43Speaker 01

  I was loose. And so, I guess, thank God, you know, but, um, honestly, I didn't care because I felt like I was sort of somewhat rock bottom because I needed... I know there was open calls. A lot of football players being called up to do it. So I thought I had a way, the whole, the plan wasn't to get the job anyway. The plan was to get comfortable in auditioning and then move here and go where I went to HB Studios and study. Uh, it just so happened that I was doing pretty good and just kept getting called back. But um, I didn't, I didn't think about that because I didn't have time to. Cause I wanted to, it was either now or never, so.

• 28:17Josh Horowitz?

  Is the learning curve huge by the time you're, you, you end your run on Ballers? Do you feel like you're a different actor from that first day on set?

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I was a different actor from the pilot, because we shot the pilot then I went to, when I went to school. And then I was doing plays and I was studying and doing monologues and this and that. So um, going to hundreds of auditions, getting told no. So um, you know, I, I, I had a day where I played like six different characters in one day in four different locations. And I'm like, that's what I'm talking about. That's what the New York experience is supposed to be. That's what the hustle and bustle was. I loved it. I've never felt more alive. Even though I was getting told no in like most of these auditions, I didn't care. Because I'm like, it's not even about getting said, getting told yes. It's about, well, what did I work out today? What did I find today in that audition? You know, in that workout. So that's what I loved about it. So yeah, different actor from then to now for sure.

• 29:07Josh Horowitz?

  This is a little bit of a tangent, but you mentioned New York. I'm just curious, because you grew up in LA. But it sounds like New York is in, in your roots, in your family's roots as well. Is that, is that fair to say?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  I love, I love it here. I mean, I think about my mom, just her hustling, you know, in the seventies. And my dad hustling, like on, off Broadway, off, off, off Negro Broadway. Like, like it's, you know what I mean? Like Sam would talk about that all the time too. And, and it was interesting being on stage in 2022 with um, uh, you know, Corey Hawkins got nominated. Yaya got nominated. Sam got nominated. Stephen Henderson got nominated. So like all these African American actors that were just getting recognized for their work. I felt like, you know, I, I felt a part of that. We almost, we're all on stage at the same time. And I likened it to like when they were coming up in the early eighties. And you know, I don't think I could get that experience anywhere else. So um, I love taking the subway. I love running my lines, because my dad, I remember my dad running the lines.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Walking me all around New York, so I do the same thing.

• 30:05Josh Horowitz?

  It is funny, because like you see those scenes in the piano, Wes, and you're seeing different generations of great black actors.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:12Josh Horowitz?

  You're seeing the passing of the baton like happening in front of you.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  You can't, you can't help but to feel that. And I felt so supported by, I mean, Mr. Pies, I mean, my goodness. His, right, his resume speaks for itself. And another one, I think that I'm trying to scream like, you guys, this, he's one of the greats. Hello. And so getting their feedback and getting their support was, was, was great for me. I needed it.

• 30:36Josh Horowitz?

  So talking about quintessential New Yorkers, let's talk about Spike Lee. Um, which is, uh, what an opportunity. What a great film finally got him his way long overdue Oscar for Black Klansmen.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:48Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Uh, so when you, when you know officially, when Spike says, you know, you're, you're my guy. That's gotta be a moment.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a moment, but he doesn't say it like that.

• 31:01Josh Horowitz?

  Give me your Spike Lee. How does he say?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Let me see if I can do it. He, uh, John, John David, this is your number. I was like, yeah, what's up? So by the way, I never hear from him. So I'm like, what the, yeah, I got a book. Where are you? I'm like, I'm in Ohio. I'm shooting a movie. All right, I'm gonna send you this book. All right, bet. Click.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  So I get the book, Black Klansmen, I read it. He, he, he light pitched it, but he, I read it and I'm like, I can't believe this is real. This is a real story. This really happened. Yeah, you like it? I love it. Bet. See you this summer. Click.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  That's, that's, you're, you're the guy. That's his version of it. And we kind of just started rolling from there. Like, we just started talking about, it's so funny. Spike is so unique, man. Like, being on the Spike Lee set too, was so encouraging as an actor. I'd never seen so many black folks on a set before, like, on every department, you know? And, um, I was important for me to see in my first, like, lead.

• 31:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  To see, uh, and the kind of leader he is and the kind of, that's also passing the torch down and showing, you know, my, my brother was, uh, he, who was his assistant. He worked with on, uh, I think she's got to have it, the TV series. So it's like a rites of passage as, as well. It's like HBCU for Hollywood, you know what I mean?

• 32:11Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, so that, that, the Spike experience is unique to, unto itself. He really lets you, like, go off the cuff.

• 32:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  You can, and what I was so amazed at was what he kept in the edit. Some things, the behavior, sometimes I didn't know the camera was rolling. I might be doing a warm up. Something and he's using it and he uses it in the film like the doesn't make grammatical sense that was all Adam like that was great you know I I love that even like when he's like say it get it let it all that stuff was just going off the cuff just flowing and he uses it and to me it's just encouraging as an actor when you know you're doing something and they like it and they show you that they like when they use it in the edit.

• 32:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah well that segues well into Christopher Nolan who I know you contributed you don't think of Christopher Nolan as be like you know improvise this one but you have some some choice moments intended that you actually contributed um talk to me a little bit about okay so you get you get again this crazy amazing honor opportunity not many people get to be the protagonist literally in a Chris Nolan movie um does he deliver a script is it a conversation how does it go down?

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah I got I got I was told to be at his house at a certain time and we're gonna talk about something that was it.

• 33:23Josh Horowitz?

  That feels like a lot of information for a Chris Nolan meeting to be honest that's like.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I guess so yeah but like you know mine I even tell you I don't know I was in there like maybe he's doing research for something else and he just wants to like learn about you know what I'm doing maybe I don't know it didn't feel like this was for a movie because we didn't talk about any anything specific you know we're talking I mean movie specific we talked about movies and we talked about like how I love the movie like movies we talked about our love for films and and just life and sports and stuff like that so after the meeting I was like and I'll say this too I was I was 30 minutes late I know I was 30 minutes late to the meeting I was like.

• 33:59Josh Horowitz?

  Paulette would not be happy with.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  You know so I'm like running up to the gate like sweating profusely I'm like this is it my life is over and and Emma greets me at the door his wife producing partner and she's just laughing and I think she could see how panicked I was and she saw like how sincere I was like I don't do this I'm not even scared about me not getting a job I'm scared about Paulette she finds out that I was late. Like, I'm just letting her down, you know, it was more about that. And, um, but we, you know, ended up staying two and two and a half hours. And then after that, I got the call saying, uh, will you be the protagonist?

• 34:34Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good moment. That's a good phone call.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  That was really cool. I, I went crazy. We, we had like three dinners. Like, it was like a Super Bowl. I was talking about Hall of Fame. I felt like I made the Hall of Fame.

• 34:42Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. So you read the script. Do you pretend like you understand every single thing in the script? Or do you say, what the hell? I mean, you have a mind that operates on a whole nother level. Explain this to me. Because it's a, it's a complex movie. Let's be real.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, you got that, you got that. And I'm just sitting in his office too. I'm like, I'm in Christopher Nolan's office, reading a script of his. What is my life? I was just, I was about to go, you know, I thought I was gonna do another season of Ballers. Like, I, I know this was gonna happen, like, so, yeah, I didn't understand that shit. Like, I, it took, it took about three some plus hours to read it, you know? Uh, but I, I really did sincerely understand there's a feeling to it that I did get, which he talks about. I'm trying to understand and feel it. And I was understanding, uh, a way into the character. The fact that there's not a lot written about him, I, I kinda liked it. I can, now I can create, we can create together. And he kinda left that to me. He, he really trusted me with that. And I, and I really love him for it because he didn't have to.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  That's Christopher Nolan. He has his way. Just, I'm ready to be actor for hire. Yes, sir, no, sir, I'll stand here. But it was quite the opposite. He wanted me to, to use my instincts.

• 35:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So because I, I know I can always talk movies with you and we were basically doing this backstage. Tell me, what are you, what are you inspired by nowadays? Movies you've seen, filmmakers, actors, what's inspiring you as a, as a creative right now?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  I, I love Cassavetti's, um, like faces. I was watching opening night, uh, a couple of weeks ago. And there's just how he captures performance. There feels like there's such a freestyle to the performers. And, but yet it's, it's, you never know. Sometimes it's contained, sometimes it's, they let it loose. The, the way they, he captures the intimacy. I've been, uh, I've been on a, a Minister Society kick lately as well. What the Hughes Brothers did and kinda them introducing a lot of new talent, what he did with Christopher, Chris Tucker.

• 36:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  What was in the dead presidents?

• 36:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Like how he was like getting your head blown off his something different like all that. I just love that.

• 36:38Josh Horowitz?

  Was Cassavetes brought up when you're doing Malcolm and Marie a little bit?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, a little bit. Yeah, I was watching faces a lot then.

• 36:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  For that because I just was excited about possibly, you know, having that style of working. And yeah, I just, and really I've been on this Jonathan Demme kick as well as of late.

• 36:56Josh Horowitz?

  Who were?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Like I think about Jack Nicholson, right? For example, I think about, I was watching Jumanji not too long ago and think about the great Robin Williams. How he can jump into any genre. He can, he can do it all. Serial killer, Miss Doubtfire.

• 37:09Josh Horowitz?

  Say one hour photo, people will sleep on that one.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Right, right. Exactly. Or even the.

• 37:13Josh Horowitz?

  Insomnia.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Insomnia. And that's the kind of, you know, that's, you know, something very aspirational to be able to make you laugh and cry, maybe in the same movie.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week we break down the twists, red herrings and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  It's high drama, cozy vibes and absolute couch detective energy. Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe, search Murder She Watched wherever you listen to podcasts and let's solve this thing together.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  Oh, please, not that music. That music gives me nightmares from my childhood.

• 38:31Speaker 05

  Could we get something a little bit lighter, some lighter music here?

• 38:35Speaker 04

  Are you a fan of true crime TV shows?

• 38:37Speaker 05

  And what about Unsolved Mysteries, the show that jumpstarted all of our love of true crime?

• 38:42Speaker 04

  I'm Ellen Marsh.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  And I'm Joey Taranto.

• 38:45Speaker 04

  And we host I Think Not, a true crime comedy podcast covering some of the wildest stories from your favorite true crime campy TV shows all the way to Unsolved Mysteries.

• 38:55Speaker 05

  Baby, you will laugh, you will cry, you'll think about true crime in a whole new way, and you'll also ask yourself, who gave these people mics?

• 39:02Speaker 04

  New episodes of I Think Not are released every Wednesday with bonus episodes out every Thursday on Patreon.

• 39:09Speaker 05

  And every Monday, you can listen to our True Crime Rundown, where we go over the top true crime headlines of the week.

• 39:16Speaker 04

  So come and join us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

• 39:25Josh Horowitz?

  I'm very curious, because the IMDb, which never lies, has no upcoming projects for John David Washington. What's cooking, my friend? Something's cooking. Tell me.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I got nothing to report right now, sir.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I have a discuss panel lesson, and thank you for coming out tonight, you know?

• 39:44Josh Horowitz?

  What are you trying to do? You said you go-

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I just, I consider you a friend and a colleague. I want to know what's going on. It's all good, all good.

• 39:52Josh Horowitz?

  What kind of, what kind of experiences are you chasing, though? Not even being literal, like a specific project, but like, I don't know, are you chasing a kind of a feeling, a kind of an experience you haven't experienced on a film set?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yes, there's some collaborators I'd like to get out there with. There's, there's some stories loosely based. I like, like Matthew Henson. I would love to explore, no pun intended. Um, I had this idea of the first African-American NFL owner, what that would be like, but like succession style, you know, um, you know, just different, I don't know, there's, there's like, what would my version of Taxi Driver be like? You know, what would that look like? Um, so I don't know, there's just, there's just a whole bunch of filmmakers I would just, I would love to work with and explore. Definitely want to go back to stage as well. I want to do Taming of the Shoe, play Petruccio.

• 40:39Josh Horowitz?

  That's on the list. What's, uh, best football movie ever? What gets it right?

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Man. I gotta say, In The Given Sunday was insane. That was, that is, it was more like a, the whole movie felt like somebody that was concussed. You know what I mean? It's just a, I don't know. It's not linear storytelling. I don't, it was just such, it was like dreamy. It was, it was, it was folky. I don't know. It was insane, man. I loved that film. They got it right. The program also got it right in a scary way. Like, you know, they're fixing some of that stuff in collegiate ball, but they, they got that right. And I love Friday Night Lights as well, Peter Berg. Yeah. The Blues, though, that's right there, too. I don't want you alive, like that, James Vanderbeek. Come on now.

• 41:24Josh Horowitz?

  Disturbingly good imitation. I did not expect that coming out of your mouth. You told me once you're a big Batman guy. Dream Batman character? Are you Batman, do you want to play Batman or a villain?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  We got a great Batman right now. Rob Patt.

• 41:36Josh Horowitz?

  Buddy of yours.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  No disrespect. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, if there was a, if there was, you know, a Joker from Compton or something, South Side of Gotham, South Side of, you know, Chicago, you know, I, you know, I would, I would explore.

• 41:50Josh Horowitz?

  Were you a Marvel, DC kid growing up?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I mean, Tim Burton's Batman was like what it was all about. And then obviously Chris Nolan took what he did with it. But, yeah, I loved Batman. I had the toys, I had the Batmobile. I loved, I didn't know why, but I just loved Michelle Pfeiffer. Her outfit.

• 42:09Josh Horowitz?

  Great costuming.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  The costuming was on point. She was a good character. Yeah. Shout out to Michelle.

• 42:15Josh Horowitz?

  With you, I skipped school to see Batman on opening day, the Tim Burton one. I did. And here I am, it worked out. It's fine. Now, did, did Dad tip you off that Ryan Coogler's writing a Black Panther role for him?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna, I'm, listen, he's on, I love like what he's doing right now, promoting the film and promoting Gladiator. I don't know where that came from. At least that's what I'm gonna say on the stage, okay? But I do know he's not gonna retire. We don't want him, I know I don't want him to retire. We don't want him to retire. Yeah, that's true.

• 42:42Josh Horowitz?

  Is it an aspiration to act with him? Like, is that something that's on the list?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  The right thing? The right thing? I don't know, I might be a little too intimidated, I don't know.

• 42:51Josh Horowitz?

  I think, let me think about it. You can handle it. Paulette, I don't know if you can handle, but.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Let's go. Let's go. Actually, I wanted, I did a film called The Creator. And I wanted it, there's a.

• 43:02Josh Horowitz?

  Great movie, yeah.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  And I didn't, I didn't bring it to Gareth, but. Because I didn't have the stones. But I wanted her to play the, there's a psychiatrist in the film and there's a great scene that was written and I kind of wanted her to do that. But I know she wasn't traveling either. She wasn't gonna come to Asia anyway, even if we asked, so. Because it was during Covid still, so. But I, I, I definitely want to do something with her.

• 43:23Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Okay, so, I mean, this is obviously a very joyful time because you're sharing this on the biggest possible platform. Everyone around the world is now able to see this. But is there a bittersweetness? Again, you've been living with this role for five years. This is goodbye to Boy Willie, presumably. But not goodbye to August Wilson. I think he'll return.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Boy Willie is never gonna leave me. Never gonna leave me. And, and, you know, people, if they revisit it and they, and they walk up to me on the subway, because I take the subway. Then it's, then it's, then it's, it's, it's worth it. It's all worth it. But it's never gonna leave me. I, I am ready to maybe do something a little lighter. Okay? You know, maybe, you know, maybe put on a cape? I don't know. But, no, but like, I, I, I, it'll, it's never, like Mr. Pott said, this stuff never leaves you. And, um, you know, hopefully I can do the Doka role one day.

• 44:13Josh Horowitz?

  Um, all right, we're gonna end with this. The Happy Sack Confused profoundly random questions for you, John David. Uh, dogs or cats? Where do you stand?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  I trust. Dogs.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Dogs, you know, they, they, they can be spoiled sometimes. I think I trust a cat.

• 44:30Josh Horowitz?

  Wow. You've met the raw, wrong dogs.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  No, it's gonna be controversial. I think I trust a cat.

• 44:36Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  You know, because, you know, dogs, they get free room and board, you feed them, and then they, sometimes they might bark, sometimes they don't.

• 44:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  At the, you know, a neighbor or somebody at robbery. But cats, I just, I trust, because there's like an understanding, like, I ain't gonna mess with you, you ain't gonna mess with me, but we gonna be cool.

• 44:53Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I get it.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  I guess. That's a tough question.

• 44:55Josh Horowitz?

  Um, what do you collect, if anything?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Um, I used to have these like, uh, these sports figures. Like I got, um, when I was a kid. I, I have actually, uh, I got a, uh, Randall Cunningham, like, action figure. I got a Herschel Walker action figure. A Sun Man action figure. I still, I still got them like on display. And Ninja Turtles too, the original.

• 45:21Josh Horowitz?

  All the real life figures that are great.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Can't believe I just told you that.

• 45:27Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 45:29Speaker 01

  My, um, my grandfather and my, and my grandmother. Denzel the first and Lennox Washington.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  It's funny, actually, I, I did a film called Amsterdam and I wanted my hair to be just like that. That's why I was going for it. I just kept it on there. Yeah, so.

• 45:49Josh Horowitz?

  Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Barney? No, I don't, I don't, I don't really.

• 45:55Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  It's one of those like, when they, if they see me, they're like, I think. They might move on or in New York, you know, they just give you the.

• 46:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 46:04Josh Horowitz?

  The ultimate compliment.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  That's great. That's what I, for real though.

• 46:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Like, if you're out on the block or on this train somewhere, they just hit you with one of those. I'm like, yeah.

• 46:13Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst noted director has ever given you?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Man, I'm not gonna say that out loud. I've got some terrible ones though.

• 46:19Josh Horowitz?

  You don't have to name names.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  You might.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  No, I'm not, no, I'm not giving that up. Well, no, I'll tell you one that, that was offensive.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  There was a note that said, can you be bigger? Can you be louder? Which I think translated as blacker at the time. And that, that shit was, that was whack as hell. I hated that. But, uh, that was a bad one. I got some, a couple of the bad ones. That was, that was a pretty bad one though.

• 46:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Cause he wasn't, he wasn't specific about it. Like, I almost wanted to be like, well, what do you mean? You know, but I didn't. I figured something out. Yeah.

• 46:51Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, in honor of happy, sad, confused, an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen. You're happy.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Denzel Washington.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  It's a fact. That's. Comfort food.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Up.

• 47:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  That one gets me. That, that was pretty sad. There's a couple out there though. Dances with Wolves. I get my feelings. I love that movie. Oh my God, that score. Well, when they, well, also though, when they like, when he had to go back and get his, his journal. And then the crew was like, where is he? We don't know. Then they get the crew to go after him and that's, that's such a good feeling. I love that. I love that scene.

• 47:37Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, a food that makes you confused.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  A food that makes me confused.

• 47:46Josh Horowitz?

  It's your controversial take. What don't you, what don't you, you see it on the menu?

• 47:49Speaker 01

  What do you mean by confused?

• 47:50Josh Horowitz?

  Well, meaning like you see it on a menu, like, why do people eat this? I don't get it. Like, what?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Oh, mushrooms.

• 47:57Josh Horowitz?

  Me too. I hate mushrooms.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't do them.

• 47:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the texture, I don't get it. I've, I tried them fried, I've tried them boiled, baked. Put them in some cheese, put some cheese on top of it, around it, through it. The cheese doesn't work. Lowry seasoning salt doesn't work.

• 48:12Josh Horowitz?

  It's a bad sign when coating it with cheese still won't make something good.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Or Lowry seasoning salt, brother. Like, it doesn't work.

• 48:19Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, our most important lesson of the night. Don't eat mushrooms, folks. No, um, this is such a special piece of work. Congratulations, buddy.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Josh.

• 48:27Josh Horowitz?

  Um, as you guys can tell, yeah, spread the good word of the piano lesson. Uh, this guy's the real deal. Uh, I'm such a fan. He's such a good dude. Give it up one more time for John David Washington.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Thank you, everybody. Thank you.

• 48:39Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you, everybody.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 49:06Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Whitney.

• 49:07Speaker 07

  And I'm Katie.

• 49:08Speaker 06

  And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire. We set out to make a true crime podcast we'd want to listen to. We get right to the story. We don't do a lot of extra talking, and when we do, it's usually to roast the short hairs off of some loser murderer or scammer. You'll laugh, but only at the people who deserve it.

• 49:25Speaker 07

  Like, which serial killer would you most like to shove into a locker?

• 49:28Speaker 06

  BTK and his awful poetry. Dude got caught because he didn't understand what a floppy disk was.

• 49:35Speaker 07

  We look for the stranger-than-fiction stories, like the case of Patty James, a killer catfish before the internet was even a thing.

• 49:41Speaker 06

  Or Howard Walmsley, a sentient wad of damp laundry who convinced his town he'd won the lottery, fleeced local businesses out of thousands, and then became a romance scammer.

• 49:51Speaker 07

  We've covered tons of cases you've never heard of. Cults, scammers, killers.

• 49:56Speaker 06

  So come find your next great binge. Listen to True Crime Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Friday.