Was I Used for a Visa?

She comes to Esther reeling from the end of a five-year relationship marked by love, deceit, and manipulation. After discovering her partner’s infidelities and hearing a therapist describe him as a possible psychopath or narcissist, she struggles to understand what was real. Together, they work to untangle the conflicting truths, rebuild her trust in her own perceptions, and explore how she can approach love with greater clarity. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi Esther. I was in a nearly five-year life partnership with someone that I am now very concerned. Used me for a visa. I sponsored this person for permanent residency here in Australia. But unfortunately, about a year ago, they walked out. And then I subsequently found out they had been cheating on me the entire relationship. This was really deeply distressing to me because at the time, this was my deepest experience of love that I'd ever had. Deep care, love and kindness. I've never really believed anyone loved me as much as this person did.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  And I've never really believed more in a connection between myself and another person. So I was deeply shocked. At the time, this person characterized their behavior as something they didn't really understand, as self-sabotage and as something to do with their family history. But a therapist I was seeing at the time said to me that she was pretty convinced that I had been used for a visa, had been completely manipulated, that this person was a psychopath or a narcissist, and that I didn't see the relationship myself or them clearly because I was just so desperate to be loved. And that I don't really know what real love feels like or should look like.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Facts have come to light that probably support the psychologist's assessment. And yet, there's a part of me that wants to hold on to the felt experience of love. I'm just wondering, Esther, if you can help me unpack whether I should believe my psychologist's assessment, whether I don't really see myself or relationships clearly, and how do I move forward if I don't really know what real love feels like? Thank you.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  We've got hardware that helps blind people see and dairy.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 3:34Esther Perel?

  You're listening.

• 3:36Esther Perel?

  Do you recognize yourself?

• 3:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think I've dissected it so much, I almost feel, I think in that voice note, kind of detached from it. But listening to it, yeah, brings it back.

• 3:52Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  It still feels kind of unbelievable to me, the story.

• 3:58Esther Perel?

  And the piece that feels unbelievable is what? How could I be with somebody who cons me? Is the feeling I felt real?

• 4:11Speaker 05

  I think the relationship and my experience in it is completely polarised from the facts that came to light. Sometimes I just feel still shocked and I'm trying to reconcile the person that I knew. And then when I have these memories, I try to fixate on, was there a sign? Is that really him? Is that like feeling I had, was it totally off?

• 4:46Esther Perel?

  Tell me a little bit, the story of your relationship.

• 4:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I live in Melbourne, in Australia, which I think is important to know because we went through one of the world's longest and strictest lockdowns in twenty twenty. And I think that frames the relationship in some ways. We met just after the first lockdown, before the second very long lockdown. Um, so our first date was at his house in his bedroom, where we made like a little Italian dinner situation. And it was very, I felt and I think he felt, well, I don't know what he felt, but at the time I interpreted him to to feel very connected very quickly.

• 5:31Speaker 05

  He told me about his mother's passing. She had died from suicide when he was twenty one. And he told me that because he wore her wedding ring as a necklace on him. And it was a shock, I think, to my partner when she died by suicide because they were extremely close.

• 5:51Esther Perel?

  And how many years after her death did you meet him?

• 5:54Speaker 05

  Nine.

• 5:56Speaker 05

  And he was very angry about it. He wouldn't wanna talk about it. He was very, I just angry. And I felt as the relationship went along, he became much more open to talking about her. Her favourite music was George Michael. And he would start to play it on the record player and we would dance in the living room and he would just talk more about her. And I felt like he was, I felt that through our relationship, he had um in some ways connected with me in a way like with her, in the sense that um we had just a very like loving bond. There was a lot of um physical affection in that was very like, wherever wherever I went, he was like very, wanted to be very close.

• 6:41Speaker 05

  It felt like we cherished each other. But after about a year, we had lots of problems with sex. Where he just didn't, he just couldn't get aroused. I personally thought it had to do with this idea of love and sex for him being quite separated. I sensed this attachment with him. But I also, it took him so long to even start talking about his mum and being able to share and talk about missing her and talking about their relationship and how, you know, how much he missed her and just instead of being angry, this like opening up. I I sensed that the love and the sex was related to this. Did you check it with him?

• 7:27Speaker 05

  I tried to talk to him about this. He did not wanna go there. He kept saying to me, so because the reason I bring up the Covid thing is because it's also happened as we moved in together in another lockdown. And his description or like explanation was that he'd lost his libido, that he just felt like the walls were caving in. We had visa issues and he kept proposing to do student visas. And I didn't want to do that because I didn't think he wanted to study. It's a lot of money and then they put a cap on how much you can earn afterwards. And so I took it upon myself to call a lawyer, who advised us to do a partner visa.

• 8:12Speaker 05

  And I pushed him for the partner visa, to be honest, um because I just wanted to.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Not have the insecurity of the visa issues going on. I just wanted to.

• 8:27Esther Perel?

  Partner visa means that you make a request for him?

• 8:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, i- in Australia, marriage and de facto are the same rights. So being married doesn't give you any more legal rights than just being in a de facto relationship. And a partner visa is essentially like a marriage visa. It's the same like in the US to get married for a visa. It's the same thing.

• 8:49Speaker 05

  Early on in our relationship, he brought up the visa issues. In terms of not wanting to be in the relationship, or at least saying, I don't know what's happening with my visa.

• 9:01Speaker 05

  And I said, I understand that I had lived for a long time in Europe, I had dealt with visa issues. I had known what it had been like to be not sure if you wanna stay or go somewhere and that impacting relationships. So I had said, if you're here for a good time and not a long time and you just wanna be free and date lots of people, I get that. Or also, if you're scared that you will get attached, and then if the visa doesn't work out, then it's not just the disappointment of the visa. It's also the disappointment of the relationship ending.

• 9:34Esther Perel?

  So it's love or the visa?

• 9:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I just felt like, for me, I could sense I had a strong connection to him. I didn't know if it was gonna turn into a relationship, but I wanted a relationship on the table.

• 9:49Esther Perel?

  How did you experience his sexual distancing from you? You've spent a year now.

• 9:58Speaker 05

  Um.

• 9:59Esther Perel?

  Trying to understand, reinterpret, make meaning.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  Um.

• 10:05Esther Perel?

  And try to deal with your heartbreak on one side, with your feeling deceived on the other.

• 10:14Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 10:14Esther Perel?

  And then with your feeling like you were a fool on yet another angle. And the more you try to put all the pieces together.

• 10:27Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 10:28Esther Perel?

  And the more the heartbreak is deep. And what I'm not clear is, do you want to know, is my thinking valid, accurate, legit? Does it make sense what I'm thinking? Or are you saying, how does one square feeling, deeply cared for and loved, to then find out that the person we thought loved us deeply, was lying to us throughout the relationship? I think I would know to listen to you differently or better, if I have a better sense as to what it is that you

• 11:11Esther Perel?

  hope for in our conversation and where you are at at this point in your life. Is it how to let go? Is it how to make sense? Is it how to trust your own feelings about yourself? So that you don't think, how do I know that when I feel something, it's real? They're not all the same. They're all inside of you. I totally understand that. But we have one conversation and I think we may be able to hone in on one of these aspects.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  I think it's for me, this idea of what I felt to be so real.

• 11:53Speaker 05

  And that realness wasn't what I felt to be like, you know, fireworks or like crazy romance, but actually safety and like feeling so connected to another person and feeling like that in that moment, you're deeply seen and seeing the other person.

• 12:14Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And you think on his side, it was a performance? What leads you to question, was any of this true or real?

• 12:23Speaker 05

  Well, my thinking was more along these lines of, I guess what I said earlier, love and sex not being able to be for him, something he could do together. And the more that he fell in love and felt safe, the less he wanted to have sex. Also, in the beginning.

• 12:39Esther Perel?

  How to make love with the woman you love?

• 12:42Speaker 05

  Yes, I don't think he knew that. And I also feel, this is my felt sense, that when we did have sex in the beginning, it was not loving. It was for him quite aggressive, almost, always from behind, pulling hair, like very. It wasn't like facing each other, never eye contact. When we weren't having sex, that's all he wanted. Lots of spooning, looking each other's eyes, heaps and heaps of closeness. It was like in sex, he wanted no closeness, no intimacy.

• 13:16Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:17Speaker 05

  That was my sense of it.

• 13:19Esther Perel?

  And that was throughout?

• 13:20Speaker 05

  Yes, that was throughout.

• 13:23Esther Perel?

  So that tells you one thing, is that this did not intensify. Because he felt closer to you.

• 13:35Speaker 05

  Um.

• 13:36Esther Perel?

  This was there from day one.

• 13:38Speaker 05

  Um.

• 13:41Speaker 05

  This disconnect between.

• 13:44Esther Perel?

  Well, you can call it a disconnect, or you can call it, if I kiss you from behind, I don't wanna see your face. And I wanna look into your eyes, I wanna be able to be more ruthless. That ruthlessness intensifies my excitement. Uh, I don't want tender, that's a totally different vocabulary, tender will come after.

• 14:06Speaker 05

  Um.

• 14:06Esther Perel?

  Or or before or around, but not at that, not in that experience itself.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Um.

• 14:11Esther Perel?

  It may have something to do with the disconnect, and sometimes it has nothing to do with the disconnect, but it says, my vocabulary. The way I get excited, what frees me, what allows me to let go. Is a certain kind of objectification, is a certain kind of ruthlessness that is highly charged and pleasurable. When I spoon, when I look at you in the eyes, when I hold you, when I caress you. That's a different range of expression.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 14:43Esther Perel?

  And potentially, because I don't know the man, in his book. It becomes more of the the intimate, tender, caring, vulnerable.

• 14:57Esther Perel?

  Vulnerable doesn't go with lust.

• 15:01Speaker 05

  Um.

• 15:03Esther Perel?

  But when you say that this was there from the start, then it's less as he became more intimate with me. And as he began to experience a certain type of intimacy with me that he had known with his mom, he felt less and less attracted to me and desirous of me. Because it began to almost feel slightly incestuous. And nobody wants in their good mind to have sex with their mom.

• 15:32Esther Perel?

  So they started to feel like two separate experiences. And he began to be more and more sexually removed from me. And he took his sexuality somewhere else?

• 15:47Speaker 05

  I I think so, but and I felt I felt like sex was impossible. As in like, I also lost it.

• 15:57Esther Perel?

  As in like ick, like too much, too close, too too interrupted?

• 16:01Speaker 05

  Not for me, but I felt I felt this block, like we weren't that. We were something else, like, but I never for a moment questioned that he didn't love me. Because the physical touch and the the desire to be close to me and the desire to like kiss me and be all in my body and smells.

• 16:23Esther Perel?

  What makes you question it now?

• 16:25Speaker 05

  Well, what this therapist said to me, she said that he was a psychopath. Because the things that came out, so how I found out was after he he walked out.

• 16:39Esther Perel?

  How did he walk out?

• 16:41Speaker 05

  About six months before we broke up, he called me from Bali. We'd been in Bali together. And um he stayed on, he was a photographer, he stayed on to do some work. And he called me, bawling his eyes out, saying I'm so sad about our sex life. I don't know what to do about it, just uncontrollably crying, like hysterical almost. And I was quite shocked, but in a way I was also happy because I was like, oh, great, we can talk about this now. Because for so long he wouldn't want to talk about it, just, oh, it's COVID, I've got no libido. It has nothing to do with you, I still find you attractive. So I was like, great, we can talk about this now, but I'm a bit worried because you're so upset. It to me signals that you don't think that this is something we can solve.

• 17:27Esther Perel?

  And it's not the first time you're experiencing this either.

• 17:31Speaker 05

  What what do you mean by that?

• 17:34Esther Perel?

  You're not the first person with whom the love lusts split.

• 17:40Speaker 05

  I don't know if that's the case, because I was his first long term, serious relationship. Before that, I think he'd only been in open things or not committed things. He'd never brought anyone home to his parents before, as far as I know. So.

• 18:00Esther Perel?

  You're questioning everything at this moment.

• 18:02Speaker 05

  Yes, I still question everything. So, yeah, so he called me from Bali, bawling his eyes out. And I said, I actually think we can solve this. This is great. Now you wanna talk about it? I said, I feel like we we're not sexual anymore. Like, I don't see you as sexual. You don't, uh, the whole. Yeah, the the vocabulary, the the tone of our relationship is loving, but it's not. And I said, we need to create some desire. Tension, yes, exactly. And so then we tried to do that for, say, like, yeah, three, six months. Um, and then he sat me down.

• 18:36Esther Perel?

  What did you try to do?

• 18:39Speaker 05

  Well, we we we bought the S F R course. Uh, but we made it through one episode. This is not a testament to your course. It was, I think. That we didn't really do it. We did one episode. And then he went traveling to Japan. And I had just finished my masters and I was handing in my PhD proposal. And I really wanted to celebrate that because it's a big thing to hand in the proposal and get a scholarship. And he went out and was out late and I was really upset. And when he came home, I said, I don't know if this is working.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  And I I meant like what we're doing right now, but I felt something like snap in the air almost.

• 19:28Esther Perel?

  He took the opportunity.

• 19:30Speaker 05

  And.

• 19:32Speaker 05

  He said in a very small voice, maybe like half an hour later in bed, you don't have to love me. You don't have to put up with my bullshit or something. And I was like, what, what's going on? I said, that's not what I was trying to say. I was just saying, this isn't. Working like you've talked about this sex life thing, you wanna fix it. And now you're like, not even wanting to. Be there to celebrate for me the next day, you're gonna be hungover, da da da. And he just closed up and said, I don't know what you're talking about. And then the next day, we kind of spoke a bit more and I said, look, if we're not having sex and you're not putting effort in. Then we're like flatmates, like we need to work on this. He went to Japan, came back and said, I don't feel.

• 20:16Speaker 05

  The same things for you anymore. I I'm not, I just don't have feel love anymore. I was a bit shocked, but I was also trying to. In that moment, I really loved him and I was like, your happiness is important to me. If you don't feel that way, I I don't know what I can do about that. But I'd like to go to therapy to break up well, because. I thought we were soulmates, like, um. This is the most I've ever been loved by someone, the most I've ever loved someone. And I thought that was mutual and I don't know how that just goes away. But I think if that's what you wanna do, then we need to do that. Then the next day he came back and was like, oh no, like.

• 20:56Speaker 05

  It's all coming back to me. Can I touch you? He he still, he he wanted the touch, he couldn't like deal with the. Then we were broken up, you know, or that we were breaking up. And he was like, can I touch you? Actually, I don't wanna leave. I don't wanna leave. I'm not broken. You're not broken. We can fix this. And to which I said, there seems to be a lot going on. I think maybe it would be a good idea for you to move out for a little bit and us to go to therapy. I wanna fix this. I'll do everything in my power to fix this, but it seems like something's going on and I think we need like just a little bit of space to work through that.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 21:31Speaker 05

  Then the next day he came back and said, no, no, I think I need to do this on my own. I need to break up. And then it was basically like that for a week. Till till till I like said, I can't do this anymore. Like this is, thi- this is like whiplash. You have to get out, you have to move out.

• 21:53Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 22:13Speaker 06

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see. They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off. We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 22:39Speaker 07

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  And dairy?

• 22:48Speaker 08

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 23:44Speaker 09

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• 24:19Speaker 05

  Um, and then as soon as he moved out, it was like the bricks started to, like the house started to fall down. I heard from someone that he'd been texting girls. He then said to me, yes, but it was just in a friendly way. And for me, it signals how unhappy I was. And I think this is related to sex. And I think I haven't been in love, or there's been something going on with the sex thing. To which I was like, well, that takes us all the way back to like the first year of our relationship. Like, what are you saying?

• 24:50Speaker 05

  And then he just went back and forth. And then eventually I rang a friend of his from work, who he'd stopped speaking to six months earlier. And she said, are you sitting down?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Um.

• 25:00Speaker 05

  Um.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 25:02Speaker 05

  And basically said that a girl at work had put in a har- a harassment claim about him. That he'd been an eighteen year old girl taking photos of her originally for work, but then in our house, taking photos of her. And crossing boundaries by like, you know, flirting with her and.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  She was eighteen, he's thirty five at this point, or thirty four at this point. And then it turned out that he'd also been doing OnlyFans shoots for women.

• 25:34Speaker 05

  I confronted him about this and he admitted to everything. And then he said, I'll meet up with you and tell you everything you wanna know. And we sat for six hours. And he told me that he'd been sleeping with people since the beginning of the relationship, like literally from the very beginning. He slept with his ex-girlfriend. And we'd had a therapist appointment booked because before I found out all this stuff, again, I wanted to break up well. I didn't think he would come, he came. But I was just hysterical because at this point, the therapist had basically said to me, you know, I think he's just a complete liar, sociopath, narcissist, whatever. You need to cut contact with him. He's dangerous.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  You just need me here to like cut the contact between the two of you. But in the part in the therapy, he said, I felt like a deep sense of peace with you. I feel like you did too, which resonated with me because I felt very soothed when I was around him. But then I just used the therapy session to like cut contact with him. I said, I don't wanna be in contact with you anymore. Because I was just, this therapist was basically saying to me, yeah, he's just completely manipulating, he's just completely pulling the wool over your eyes, nothing he's saying is real.

• 26:48Esther Perel?

  This is in one session?

• 26:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, but weirdly in the session, because of the way we were communicating, she suddenly was like, huh. Okay, actually, maybe there's a real connection here, is what she said in this session.

• 27:01Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  Because he was, I was incredibly distressed. And when he told me about his, all this cheating, I was saying to him, like, I feel really like. Distra- like incredibly distressed and having some like pretty.

• 27:16Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:16Speaker 05

  Dark thoughts and.

• 27:17Esther Perel?

  Of course.

• 27:18Speaker 05

  In the six hour conversation, he was like, I'm really concerned. I wanna like, tell your dad that you're this distressed because I'm, I can't. If someone dies again, if someone is even remotely suicidal, like it's, he was getting really anxious about it. And I was just saying, it's, I would never do that to my family, but I'm like, I'm really distressed. Like, this is really. This is awful, these things I'm hearing about you, like to hear that your partner has harassed young girls, like this is, I'm like completely overwhelmed. And in the session, he was like, kind of bursting to tell this therapist, like she's really distressed and I just wanna make sure that she's. Nothing, you know. So the therapist then at the end was kind of like, you know, trying to reassure him that I was okay.

• 28:02Speaker 05

  And as we left the therapy session, he was like, can we please hug? And he was just like crying and then he was like, I just keep seeing you swinging from a roof. Because his mum, um, hung herself in their family house. Um, and we were just, yeah, crying and he was like, I love you, I love you, I love you. And then we left. And so then I thought, okay, maybe the therapist has been wrong. But then I um contacted the person he'd originally slept with in the very beginning, which was someone he'd been dating just before me. And I said to her, you know, can you give me some information about how this, you know, what what was he like or what had happened? And she said, no, we didn't sleep together after we broke up.

• 28:44Speaker 05

  She said, but I did see him six months ago. And he told me that your relationship is dead and that he, you know, he's gonna break up with you. And then he afterwards, he texted me and said, did I wanna have sex? So I went to my therapist and said, he's lied about that he slept with this person in the beginning. Why would he do that? And then the therapist said, because he's a psychopath.

• 29:12Speaker 05

  And I said, but in the session you were saying

• 29:16Speaker 05

  that you thought that there was maybe a genuine connection with us. And she said, no, no, no. I I sensed that he was not being authentic. He's not an authentic person. You just wanna be loved so much. You just wanna believe it so much that you're not seeing things clearly.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  And then from then on, I was like stuck with these two s- s- different stories and I couldn't reconcile them. And I went on like a fact finding mission. I called his family. His family reassured me that these characters weren't consistent with who they knew and they were deeply shocked. But had also said that since his mum's suicide, he'd never really gotten over it. His dad was like, we are just growing further and further apart since you broke up.

• 29:58Esther Perel?

  Fact finding, all the fact finding hasn't given you the peace of mind that you are yearning for.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:10Esther Perel?

  So I'm afraid that if I let you go through the whole story, we will we will not have much of a conversation. Um, and part of it is because if he lied, then everything was a lie, then everything I felt was a lure. Then I am a fool. If he didn't lie, then what I did feel was real, then my experience is valid. You see, it's like very much an either or.

• 30:43Speaker 05

  Um.

• 30:45Esther Perel?

  There are people who are at the same time loving and lying.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  Um.

• 30:50Esther Perel?

  There are people who care and at the same time can't tolerate the closeness that comes from the caring.

• 31:01Esther Perel?

  There is people like you who, most of the time, everything you described, you had your head on your shoulders quite well.

• 31:10Esther Perel?

  It's not like you were transported in some something that made no sense. At some point, his behavior became erratic enough or consistently avoiding enough that you went to ask people and you got a good sense. You said, "We need to work on it." You said, "We need to have some space between us." You said, "You need to move on." I mean, it's not like you, this notion that because you're deeply yearning for love, you lost your mind.

• 31:42Esther Perel?

  I don't see that, okay?

• 31:44Speaker 05

  No.

• 31:45Esther Perel?

  But of course, we are left with the question is, how could I feel all of that when he was half there and half somewhere else? Because sometimes the half that people give us is plentiful.

• 32:01Esther Perel?

  So, what do you make of that statement? You didn't notice anything because you're so craving? I'm not questioning what this therapist told you. I'm questioning how you heard the statement. You so much wanted to be loved that you didn't see a thing.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I'm so like molded for a narcissist that I don't even notice that I'm accommodating them to such a degree.

• 32:29Esther Perel?

  So how are you molded for a narcissist? And, I mean, what is it that you're supposed to recognize about yourself in her statement?

• 32:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I had seen her like one or two times before and I had let her know that my mom has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. And... That she can erupt and be quite rageful. And so I guess I learnt very early on to take care of her feelings and walk on eggshells and manage the displeasure or anger. But when I was nine, my mum told me that she thought that she was diagnosed with borderline. I I don't know if I was nine or ten or seven. And this is also like something that I witnessed a lot with my mum, which was, you know, really

• 33:22Speaker 05

  crossing boundaries where she would lean on me like a friend or an adult, I guess. So the therapist was sort of saying, ah, you know, I I brought to the therapist to say, well, I he didn't behave like a narcissist in the relationship. He was taking care of me a lot and I felt it was very equal. And then when I would criticize him or say something wasn't working, he was always very, okay, yep, I hear you. What can we do? How can we work on things? She said, no, no, no, no, no. I think that's just because you were very good at like pleasing him and like keeping the narcissism contained. Because of what you witnessed with your mum.

• 34:01Esther Perel?

  And what do you think about that?

• 34:05Speaker 05

  I think.

• 34:09Speaker 05

  I've tried so hard to try to ask these questions and piece it together. I think in, I think, yes, in some instances, I am hyper aware of people's things, like displeasure or whatever else. And I think I probably did do, tried a lot to please him. But also I think I'm someone who's quite vocal. And if things are not working or there's things that I don't like, or I'm pissed off or whatever, I also am saying that to my partner. But I also think there was something about the way I approached these conversations with him that I think probably, yeah, did diffuse some of this, if you wanna call it narcissism.

• 34:51Esther Perel?

  Um hum. I don't call it. I don't know him and I am a little. Careful about putting big labels on people. From love addict on you to narcissist on him. Um, um. So I, I don't know enough. It could be this and it could be a number of other things too. So I don't think it would be right on my part to deliberate about this. But if you tell me, I learned how to diffuse things as a kid and I continue to do so as an adult. Even that, you know, many of our biggest assets also sometimes are our challenges.

• 35:36Esther Perel?

  But that doesn't mean that they're not also assets. Um. The ability to diffuse is in and of itself not a problem. Um. It's the excess of it, the constant use of it, the feeling that you have to, the pressure to do it because otherwise bad things can happen, that becomes the issue, not the dread in and of itself.

• 36:01Speaker 05

  And I never felt with him that I was walking on eggshells. I never felt that fear or anxiety that he was gonna be angry. And in some ways, I felt like he needed me, like with his mom, to provide stability, but he never asked me for it or made it my responsibility. That's for me what my interpretation of the relationship was, but I just can't get out of my head this idea that nothing was real.

• 36:34Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

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• 38:19Esther Perel?

  How much rumination and obsession goes on?

• 38:22Speaker 05

  A lot.

• 38:23Esther Perel?

  Nonstop?

• 38:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, I want to just believe my interpretation and assessment of everything, but I feel as though if I was in some mastermind manipulation, that I'm then somehow still being manipulated because I'm believing the love was real.

• 38:47Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 38:48Speaker 05

  And when I called his family, he wrote me to say, "Why are you talking to my family?" And I let him know this therapist had said this and how upset I was. And he said, "Okay, I understand you're upset, and I don't know what else I can do to make you believe that everything was real, that I loved you, et cetera, et cetera." And I said, "What would help me is if we maybe went to another therapist, maybe one that you've been seeing, who can help reassure me that what you're saying is true." And he said, "I promise you I will do that. I'm going back home for a month, and I promise you when I get back, I'll reach out."

• 39:24Speaker 05

  But please, you cannot come back and ask me more stuff because it's overwhelming me, it's taking me back to where we were. I can't sleep, I can't eat, I'm having panic attacks, I'm feeling really broken from this relationship ending. I'm not coping, I will reach out to you, but if you contact me again, I'm gonna block you because I just can't cope.

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  Cause you were, you were reaching out to him a lot.

• 39:45Speaker 05

  So after the therapist told me he was a psychopath, I wrote him an email. And he wrote back saying, I promise everything was real. I thought the way we left things in the therapy was somewhat amicable, I love you, et cetera, et cetera, you know, I don't know why I did everything. I'm trying to work it out.

• 40:05Esther Perel?

  It's a better story to live with.

• 40:07Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 40:08Esther Perel?

  Because this one about he is this and you are that. Has left you with a very fractured sense of reality.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 40:19Esther Perel?

  Can I trust my feelings, can I trust my perception of reality, can I trust that what I think, what I think is really is?

• 40:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:28Esther Perel?

  And it wasn't very useful. In terms of not personalizing everything.

• 40:35Speaker 05

  Um. Yes, because I didn't, originally I didn't see his cheating and stuff really much to do with me.

• 40:43Esther Perel?

  Yep, yep.

• 40:44Speaker 05

  Or our relationship.

• 40:45Esther Perel?

  Right, and it, and he agrees with that too.

• 40:49Speaker 05

  Yes, he, he says, I've, I felt like I was self sabotaging.

• 40:52Esther Perel?

  So I have a question for you, you are four or five years with this man.

• 40:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 40:58Esther Perel?

  You have a fairly good sense of what may or may not have transpired. You go to a therapist for one session.

• 41:08Speaker 05

  Um.

• 41:09Esther Perel?

  And that therapist who you know or don't know before.

• 41:13Speaker 05

  I'd seen her twice before.

• 41:14Esther Perel?

  Okay, so the completely new therapist.

• 41:18Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 41:19Esther Perel?

  Gets to reinterpret your entire life and leaves you on the mat for a whole year now?

• 41:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:28Esther Perel?

  I mean, how much power do you wanna give my profession?

• 41:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know. Well, I, I think this is why I wrote to his family, this is why I wrote to him. And then eventually.

• 41:39Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but that was the same. That was already the power of the therapist. Now you're going to.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:43Esther Perel?

  To, to poll the people around you to see if this whole new interpretation has validity. Is he really what this therapist told me he is? And am I really what she do? It's like, you know, this is gonna sound like a strange way of saying it, but sometimes a little amount of self-deception.

• 42:06Esther Perel?

  In your type of situation, I'm not saying this as a categorical. May not be a bad idea. And I don't even know if it's self-deception, but basically, here is this five years. I felt something snapped about three years into it.

• 42:24Esther Perel?

  Maybe that's when I was more patient and kind and considerate of his feelings and everything.

• 42:33Esther Perel?

  Then, you know, it took a long time for me to finally put my foot down.

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  Not at the end, at that moment. But part of it is because there was a, a lot of beautiful, good stuff between us two.

• 42:51Esther Perel?

  And honestly, no, I don't think his lack of desire had something to do with me.

• 42:59Esther Perel?

  And I don't mean to say that there were not things that I have can be, take responsibility for, but fundamentally,

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  there's someone who is challenging, challenged. There's a lot of turmoil inside of him.

• 43:17Esther Perel?

  Somehow I see a kind of a similarity between your mom coming to tell you I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and him talking to you about his mother's suicide. And yes, there is something about that that is very alluring to you.

• 43:35Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 43:35Esther Perel?

  You, you don't like the burden of being the confidant and the one who one tells the ultimate truth to, but on the other end, it makes you feel like there is an absolute intimacy that instantly gets established between you and the raconteur.

• 43:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, there was something about the way that he told me. Or the way that he, that whole thing that he wasn't, I didn't feel a sense of responsibility for him. But I wanted to.

• 44:05Esther Perel?

  But I felt special.

• 44:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I felt special and I want, i- it's like I felt like I could do this.

• 44:11Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:12Speaker 05

  Do what he needed.

• 44:12Esther Perel?

  I've done this. Yes, I've done this. I'm a pro. I've done this for for twenty something years before. I get it. And maybe more than, you know. What is your deep quest for love that allows you not to see when people are truthful or not? It's more, how do you establish trust? How do you respond when people open up to you? And the thing I'm slightly

• 44:48Esther Perel?

  apprehensive about is that it it becomes a story of

• 44:53Esther Perel?

  you did nothing wrong, or what's wrong with you?

• 44:57Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 44:58Esther Perel?

  Or he did nothing wrong, or what's wrong with him? It's all or nothing. And people are sometimes more complex than that. They're not just good or bad. I mean, sometimes, yes, but many times they are doing bad things to themselves, hurtful things to themselves, hurtful things to the people they love the most.

• 45:21Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 45:21Esther Perel?

  And they have no idea why.

• 45:23Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 45:25Esther Perel?

  But at this very moment, it is essential for you to get out of the clutches.

• 45:30Speaker 05

  Hmm. How do I do that?

• 45:36Esther Perel?

  You pick a story that for the moment is good enough.

• 45:41Esther Perel?

  That allows you to sleep. That allows you to meet new people. That allows you to not second guess yourself all the time.

• 45:52Speaker 05

  So I I I feel like I did that and I tried to reject the therapist. And then, but a- again, I take accountability for this. I did write him maybe four or five months after he said I'd reach out because he hadn't. And he blocked me. And then a friend called me and said, he's engaged to someone new.

• 46:12Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:13Speaker 05

  And this was like nine months after we had split up. And so I think there's a part of me because more and more information kept coming out. There's a part of me that wants to believe the worst case. So that if more information comes, I can't be shocked or.

• 46:32Esther Perel?

  Okay, okay. You don't need anybody, anybody's help for that. You know, you don't need to vilify him.

• 46:42Speaker 05

  Um.

• 46:42Esther Perel?

  You can't say, wow, that was quick. But honestly, if you had met somebody, you may have been in the same situation.

• 46:52Speaker 05

  I haven't even been able to like, date. I've been so.

• 46:58Esther Perel?

  I know, cause he inhabits your, right, he. It's it's as if you need to answer that impossible question.

• 47:06Speaker 05

  Um.

• 47:07Esther Perel?

  Has he ever been alone much in his life?

• 47:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was thinking that because I was his first long term relationship, but if I think back to like all the stories he's told, he's always been entangled with someone.

• 47:18Esther Perel?

  Right, he's never been alone.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  Um.

• 47:22Esther Perel?

  He's never been alone. I mean, the fact that he didn't have a long term, he's always been, there's always been somebody. So the fact that he's nine months into it with someone else, nothing new.

• 47:33Speaker 05

  Um.

• 47:35Speaker 05

  I guess for me, like the the strength of the connection, it's it's like baffling to me that he could then, I could just be, he could just replace that and then.

• 47:44Esther Perel?

  That's the thing that.

• 47:48Esther Perel?

  Pierces us.

• 47:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:50Esther Perel?

  What do I mean if you can so quickly replace me? Am I that replaceable, dispensable, not unique? All of that, and that is the shattering of the grand ambition of romantic love. I've never loved like you. Well, really, look how quickly you love someone else.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, because it is that fantasy that of course was shattered with the cheating. But then because I had rationalized, oh, that's separate from us almost. But the love, the commitment, this desire to wanna be like in a life partnership with you. Yeah, that idea that he could just do that all again so quickly is almost in a way more shocking to me than the cheating.

• 48:37Esther Perel?

  I agree, because you can somehow understand he loved me deeply, but he struggled and therefore he cheated. That's somehow we can put together. But you love me deeply and now no time has passed and you're already committed to someone else. Well, then what was true about our love?

• 48:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that's the piece with the stories is what was true about the love?

• 49:02Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:02Speaker 05

  Because I want to take that love with me because I felt it to be so profound and it changed me. So erasing that feels like really challenging. And also, that is the type of love I wanna feel in a relationship. And now I'm petrified that if I feel that again, I am now pairing love and kindness and a sense of security with potentially like manipulation, lies. What I'm feeling, I can't trust. And that, I find to be like quite hopeless.

• 49:41Esther Perel?

  I wish there was a quick potion that could help us with that. I find that is one of the most challenging maturing of a person. How do we learn to love with what has been called secondary naivete?

• 50:02Esther Perel?

  The first time you love with first degree naivete. But then the second time, when there's been a breach, a violation, a betrayal, a deception, a duplicity, then you begin to think, what's it like to love with my eyes open?

• 50:22Esther Perel?

  So there's an alertness, there's a secondary naivete. It is grounded in alertness and reality. It is more cautious, but it allows itself to step a little bit more slowly. But it doesn't get completely blocked. Because one person cannot be given the power to rewrite an entire story.

• 50:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, it has, I feel like he's rewritten my whole life.

• 50:53Esther Perel?

  Right, and you've given him a tremendous amount of power.

• 50:59Esther Perel?

  With the fear that anything that will follow could be a replica of him. That is a real fear, but it is not necessarily reality.

• 51:14Speaker 05

  Will I ever be able to have that feeling where I just feel like I know? And that feeling of like

• 51:24Speaker 05

  deep joy and, I don't know what the word is, but like a sense of like deep relaxation that like I am connecting with someone.

• 51:33Esther Perel?

  I'm home, I'm home.

• 51:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:35Esther Perel?

  I'm home, I can breathe out, I can let go. It is safe, it is real, it is true, I can trust.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that's what I felt and that was the, I met him when I was thirty three and I had not felt that until then. I'd had lots of other long term relationships, some kind and beautiful, some a bit less.

• 51:53Esther Perel?

  But now you know the feeling.

• 51:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:56Esther Perel?

  So now you know the feeling that you want to experience again.

• 52:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm scared of the feeling now and I think that's what's. Playing in my mind.

• 52:07Esther Perel?

  I would be misleading you if I just tried to say, oh, no, there's no reason to. There's a very good reason to. But the only way you will get to that experience is by allowing yourself, by giving yourself the permission while being with your eyes open and loving people around you. And you're asking them, what do you see? Am I missing something? This is, I'm trepidating. You know, but, but it feels right. And the majority of people won't cheat and lie. And one person can't become the representative of an entire species.

• 52:50Esther Perel?

  So I don't have a crystal ball if I will, will you ever love again? How, what the hell do I know? I don't know at all. But I do know what it's like to allow oneself to reopen one's eyes. Right now, your eyes have been looking inward for the whole year.

• 53:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 53:10Esther Perel?

  And something very special happens when you reopen the eyes and they turn outward.

• 53:18Esther Perel?

  Because the tenacity of the internal truth and the internal gaze has become distorting in its own way.

• 53:27Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I have questioned like everything in my life.

• 53:33Esther Perel?

  How is what we are saying so far? How is this conversation?

• 53:38Speaker 05

  Reassuring, I think. I think one of the reasons I wanted to speak to you was to get some sort of validation, to not have this other psychologist's power or her in my ear so much. Um, for whatever reason.

• 53:57Esther Perel?

  Or me, I don't want you to have, I don't want you to give that same. Don't take it away from her and put it on me. Take a little bit back for you. Yeah. Take some of that power back for you. You can't have the full certainty. It will at times feel scary. It will feel ambiguous. It will come with questions. Hmm. It's this and that. Yes. It's a bunch of things all together. And it's complicated. It's not this or that. Hmm, hmm. Is he a narcissist? Am I a love addict? The world is a little bit more than than that. At least how I understand the story.

• 54:41Esther Perel?

  I may say the same thing had I seen you more, but I can't say it for you today. I can't claim or disclaim. I can just pass over some of the power and the responsibility back on you. You're giving us too much power.

• 54:59Esther Perel?

  We are common mortals too. We sometimes think we need to know, like you're asking me to know and to give you certainty that I don't have. Yeah. And if I pretend to have it, then I look more powerful than I really am. Okay. I can sit with you in the uncertainty. And if you find a therapist, he wants someone who sits with you in the complexity, in the uncertainty, in the doubt, while at the same time

• 55:32Esther Perel?

  helping you to put one foot in front of the other.

• 55:36Esther Perel?

  Thank you, Esther. You're welcome.

• 55:48Speaker 14

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call reported remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a forty or fifty-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected].

• 56:10Speaker 14

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jaxel.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 56:59Speaker 06

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

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  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see. They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off. We've got deep tech to change the weather.

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  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

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  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like, one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  And dairy?

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  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

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