Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel It's Very Hard to Live with a Saint About this episode This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? Barely a year into marriage, they're trapped in a cycle of explosive conflict. She can do no right, and he can do no wrong.
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Transcript 6,428 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.
0:26 Speaker 00 This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence. It may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.
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1:56 Speaker 03 I thought marrying somebody from Latin America would be easy. Even though we speak in Spanish, it feels like two different languages.
2:06 Esther Perel? He's Colombian, she's Mexican. He's nineteen years older than her. He never thought he would get married, he had given up on marriage. But now they are married for a year.
2:18 Speaker 03 Being married to him, it started opening this Pandora box that I didn't know I had.
2:24 Speaker 05 She has more explosive ways of reacting to things and I'm always kind of bringing her back like, "Come on, give her a moment."
2:33 Speaker 03 And I know that I hurt him, you know, like verbally I can be very abusive.
2:38 Esther Perel? They devolve into rigid, predictable, high conflict. And so they went from heaven to hell very fast.
2:46 Speaker 05 I do not speak with that person when she's extremely upset and explosive. I just become quiet instead of continuing a conversation where very bad words come out and it just becomes really verbally violent. For me, I'm like, "How can I communicate with her?"
3:04 Esther Perel? Something about rigidity and the immediacy of these types of negative escalations lets me know that there is a lot more reciprocity in the patterns than any of the two of them allude to. And so we're gonna go digging.
3:30 Esther Perel? Encantada conocerles.
3:32 Speaker 06 Gracias.
3:32 Esther Perel? Gracias. Y vamos a hacerlo en inglés, ¿no? Sí.
3:35 Speaker 06 Of course, for sure.
3:38 Esther Perel? But if there are things that are better said in Spanish because your heart lives in Spanish, then we switch and I'll translate. Don't worry about that.
3:50 Speaker 06 Okay.
3:51 Esther Perel? Okay? You see, we have nasty fights. From one to ten, how bad?
3:59 Speaker 06 For me, they're like fifteen.
4:05 Esther Perel? Tell me a little bit more about you first, so that I have a sense. And then we'll go to the scene of the crime.
4:11 Speaker 06 Okay, okay, good.
4:15 Speaker 06 I am nineteen years older than she is. So that, that there's a different way of seeing the world just because of that.
4:23 Esther Perel? How did you meet?
4:24 Speaker 06 We met in a place where we did meditation. And I've always had that curiosity to kind of find the deeper meaning of life in me anyway. Like, I'm very noble. Yeah, noble in the sense of childlike, almost innocent.
4:43 Speaker 06 A good heart, I feel that I have a good heart.
4:47 Speaker 06 And because of that, I feel sometimes people might take advantage of that. As I'm like, I see them.
4:53 Esther Perel? And what drew you to her?
4:55 Speaker 06 For the first time in my life, I felt that I had matured in the way I am with the person. I'm seeing this person because of what she is, not what she represents. That laundry list was gone.
5:07 Esther Perel? What was on the list?
5:09 Speaker 06 On the list was, there's a certain look, there's a certain level of education.
5:14 Esther Perel? So that if she was also extraordinaire, then you would become?
5:20 Speaker 06 Exactly.
5:20 Esther Perel? What?
5:22 Speaker 06 I would look good.
5:25 Esther Perel? Tell me a little bit more about your background in Colombia.
5:30 Speaker 06 Overprotected, I think.
5:32 Esther Perel? By whom?
5:32 Speaker 06 By my mom.
5:34 Esther Perel? And dad?
5:36 Speaker 06 My dad, very noble, a good, mannered person, the kind of person that never fights. But a bit absent in the process of raising the kids. It was always my mother. I've always felt that the strong women in my family, they're so strong and they've pretty much sucked the man's brain into nothingness. And I kind of feel my dad lost his ability to, just to be a man.
6:02 Esther Perel? So you're making sure?
6:03 Speaker 06 I'm making sure that.
6:05 Esther Perel? With her, that your brain doesn't get sucked out of you?
6:08 Speaker 06 That I don't lose my identity, that I don't, do not suck my brain. This is mine, can't touch, you know? I mean, I remember a conversation.
6:15 Esther Perel? But hold on a second. Does that mean that in part, when you respond to your wife?
6:25 Esther Perel? There's a part of you that says, "I'm not gonna let you do to me what my mother did to my dad."
6:31 Speaker 06 Most likely, yeah.
6:33 Esther Perel? And I'm gonna stand up.
6:35 Speaker 06 Exactly.
6:37 Esther Perel? And what do you say? When you're in your fighting mode with your flag defending?
6:42 Speaker 06 I say nothing, which gets her more upset.
6:45 Esther Perel? What do you say inside of you? To her, you say, "You ain't gonna move me, you ain't gonna push me, "you ain't gonna get an inch of me." But inside, you say what?
6:56 Speaker 06 Oh, she's acting up. She's saying crazy stuff, she'll calm down. She's making stuff up that is not going anywhere.
7:06 Esther Perel? So it's the good old women are hysterical?
7:10 Speaker 06 Yeah, yes.
7:11 Esther Perel? You're smiling.
7:14 Speaker 06 Yes, but yes, yes, I would say that. I go in that stereotype.
7:19 Esther Perel? Continue.
7:22 Speaker 06 You're not reasoning. So I cannot have a conversation with that. And then another thing that really gets me is when her language changes into something that is very violent. I'm not used to that. I don't know how to handle that.
7:40 Speaker 03 When I say cabron, you know, like, because when you fight in your language, you let it go. You know, so like, there's like a release when I say it. It's more for me than for him. And I totally forget that it's gonna hurt him in some way. I just like let my anger go.
8:00 Speaker 06 Yeah, for me, the strong words have, for some reason, a huge impact. Like, I feel that it escalates into a place that is...
8:08 Esther Perel? Well, part of it is you also think of yourself as so good. "I'm such a good person, I don't deserve this." You're indignant. Something like that?
8:18 Speaker 06 Sure.
8:19 Esther Perel? Say it in your own words.
8:21 Speaker 06 I'm good, and I'm a nice person. I understand my shortcomings, but I don't deserve to be treated with that language.
8:34 Esther Perel? The way he describes the cycle, the escalation,
8:40 Esther Perel? leaves him out of the equation. It's as if he's not an active participant here, and she's doing all of this on her own. In a dance where you have one person who attacks and one person who stone walls, or one person who withholds or withdraws, and one person who pursues. It's very important to understand that the person who withholds contributes in intensifying the pursuit of the other, and the person who pursues intensifies the need of the other to stone wall and to retreat. Each person is co-creating the other. That is the essence of a dance, especially in negative escalations.
9:27 Esther Perel? You close up, you say nothing,
9:32 Esther Perel? and the less you say, and the more her requests turn into protests,
9:40 Esther Perel? and you kind of wait for her to calm down on her own, without engaging.
9:47 Speaker 06 Right, and she normally does. She does that for me.
9:50 Esther Perel? She does what for you?
9:52 Speaker 06 Comes back. After that tsunami of extravagance of things, she normally comes back down and... I could easily go to sleep, and slip it off, and then we'll talk tomorrow. She would not allow that ever to happen. We might fight until 3 a.m. She would not let it subside until some sort of communication gets to a place where we can go to sleep, giving each other a hug, which is beautiful. So I kind of wait until all of that happens.
10:25 Esther Perel? So she does the dumping and she does the repairing?
10:28 Speaker 06 Yes.
10:28 Esther Perel? And you? Just a passive participant?
10:35 Esther Perel? I mean, it's very interesting. It's like she runs the whole show, and you're kind of almost an audience.
10:44 Speaker 06 Yes.
10:44 Esther Perel? You watch her lose it, and then you watch her regain it, and then you thank her for doing it so nicely. But she does everything.
10:52 Speaker 06 Well, I try to, I try to express my point of view. And I've tried to say, okay, let's, let's talk about this. This is how I feel, but it's just doesn't go.
11:04 Esther Perel? Because that's not what it's about.
11:06 Speaker 06 Mm-hmm.
11:06 Esther Perel? You, you still think that it's about expressing points of views. It's like opening a small umbrella in the middle of a storm.
11:14 Speaker 06 Mm-hmm. Right.
11:17 Esther Perel? And you're trying to open a small umbrella and have a rational discussion in the middle of something that has completely dysregulated.
11:24 Speaker 06 Exactly.
11:24 Esther Perel? It doesn't work.
11:25 Speaker 06 Right.
11:26 Esther Perel? So, that is gonna have to change. Because I know, when you come in here, you probably think what has to change is her.
11:35 Speaker 06 No, I understand that I, I'm a big part of the process.
11:39 Esther Perel? Good.
11:40 Speaker 06 Yes.
11:40 Esther Perel? That makes us move a lot faster.
11:45 Speaker 06 No, for sure, I wouldn't be here otherwise, I know that.
11:47 Esther Perel? Alright, let me hear from you a little bit. So you're in the meditation room and you see this
11:53 Speaker 03 Ah.
11:54 Esther Perel? man, and what draws you to him?
11:57 Speaker 03 Uh, we, we started as friends. And, uh, like the deep conversations, and he had no clue. Like, I had to do, like, all the job of seduction, you know? Like, he kept saying that he was already, uh, love was not for him, he wasn't gonna be with someone.
12:14 Esther Perel? Oh, he was doing that part?
12:15 Speaker 03 Yes.
12:15 Speaker 06 Yeah, pretty much.
12:16 Esther Perel? There must be some ballad about that in Spanish too, no?
12:20 Speaker 06 Oh, for sure, there's plenty of those.
12:24 Speaker 06 Where you just drink a lot and listen to, uh, boleros and, yeah.
12:28 Esther Perel? Yeah, some nice bolero that just kind of, with a syrup of, of self-pity.
12:35 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, no, there's one called La Coparrota, you should listen to that one.
12:38 Esther Perel? Uh-huh, and it says?
12:39 Speaker 06 It's violent.
12:40 Esther Perel? Yeah.
12:41 Speaker 06 Give me the broken glass because I'm gonna cut my
12:44 Esther Perel? Cut my veins?
12:44 Speaker 06 Yeah, all the songs, oh, but that, this one, the lyrics, oh my god. Yeah, I grew up listening to that, yeah. That one, there it is. That's it.
12:59 Speaker 06 Oh my goodness, that song.
13:03 Esther Perel? That's the man you married.
13:11 Esther Perel? He knows exactly what I'm talking about. He knows exactly which song to bring up in the Latin blues repertoire. Of the man who's been treated unkindly by life, of the man who did everything and the woman abandoned him in the songs, right? This is a script that he has learned in his childhood, but also that is part of the cultural tradition that he comes from. By putting it in the larger context of a character, it's taken out of pathology and put back into cultural legacy.
13:48 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
14:01 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
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15:44 Esther Perel? And for you?
15:48 Speaker 03 For me, my upbringing is that it was the opposite of his household. My parents would fight in front of me. They would yell, they would scream, they would shake each other. There was a lot of banging, a lot of, you know, hitting. Like, my mom would hit me a lot, my dad would defend me. So it was like a whole Mexican telenovela that would give you, like, material for years. It was like a lot of pain. And I had to put myself together many times. But I always wanted to see myself in the eyes of a man and to put my value in our relationship.
16:29 Esther Perel? But both of you say I was looking for a person through whom I could see myself.
16:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:37 Esther Perel? It's just that you wanted somebody to fix, because then you would know how important you are. And you wanted someone who was so perfect. There was nothing to fix. These are very old, rather gender-based scripts.
17:02 Esther Perel? In this case, he finds the perfect woman, and she becomes the perfect woman by fixing the broken man who cries without solace.
17:15 Speaker 03 Yes, totally.
17:16 Esther Perel? That telenovela has been done too.
17:18 Speaker 06 Many times.
17:20 Esther Perel? No matter how much you've traveled, the two of you, you've stayed rather faithful to some old stories.
17:29 Speaker 06 From where we come.
17:30 Speaker 03 True.
17:31 Speaker 06 From the place where we come.
17:33 Esther Perel? Right, right. They travel with us, you know? For all of us, they travel with us. But sometimes we don't realize it. Tell me something, when you fight, you threaten each other with divorce all the time?
17:47 Speaker 03 All the time.
17:47 Speaker 06 She does.
17:48 Speaker 03 I even go online and I find tickets. And he's like, "But your immigration, I don't care about my visa, I don't care about my green card, I'm out." You know, like, I always just want to escape.
17:59 Speaker 06 Like, you know, she goes to 100%.
18:02 Esther Perel? Right.
18:02 Speaker 06 Or 120, I kind of stay back, you know? Wait, let's see, but...
18:06 Speaker 03 I think that for me is like when I'm fighting, I go to this void. And it's like this, like anger takes over me and it's so difficult for me to explain him because in his eyes, everything he does is perfect. So, for example, if we're having a conversation and I say, "It would be so nice if you brought me flowers." He's like, "Why are you not buying me flowers?" I'm a human too, I have feelings too. Like, "Oh, it would be so nice that you tell me how nice I look." "Why, why are you not telling me that I look so nice?" So it's like always about him and it's never about me. And I don't know if that's a very childlike part of me or what, or... But like, I am...
18:52 Speaker 03 I think I'm exhausted. Because as, now that you describe it, I was like, "Wow, I do everything, that's right." It never occurred to me, like, I do the repair and I do the break and then I do the cleanup.
19:03 Esther Perel? And he does the being nice?
19:04 Speaker 03 Yeah. Now he's getting better, at least at talking, but before he would just go into the room and like literally put the...
19:11 Esther Perel? He sucks.
19:12 Speaker 03 Yeah. Because he doesn't like me to tell him cabron or pendejo, but for me, he's saying, "Fuck you." And I'm like, is there a person, your wife, talking to you? Like, help me, like, don't let me go through hell alone. Like, let's talk about this. And then also what happens maybe is that I get angry so fast that it's never about the trigger. It's never about what happened that it got me angry. The conversation then becomes, you are a bad person because you got so angry.
19:49 Esther Perel? When you yell and fight and feel like you're not yourself, does it feel like it's similar to how you saw your mom?
19:59 Speaker 03 Yes. I became my mom and I hate that. I mean, she has beautiful parts.
20:05 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, so do you.
20:06 Speaker 03 But, thank you. But her toxic parts are very, very intense. And the worst thing I see is like seeing myself as fighting as she would be fighting.
20:16 Esther Perel? Right.
20:19 Esther Perel? Because she's a very, very important part of you.
20:23 Esther Perel? And she's a mixed blessing.
20:26 Esther Perel? She's the one that has taken you out of many tough situations.
20:32 Esther Perel? But she sometimes fights as if every situation is a tough situation, where in fact you're just talking about breakfast.
20:43 Esther Perel? She grew up with tremendous violence and was often threatened. And as a result, she developed vigilant skills to detect threat and to take her anger and to turn her fear into belligerence so that she could defend herself. But what happens to us when this is our childhood is that later on, we sometimes don't know really to differentiate. Is this a threatening situation? Or is this just an unpleasant situation? And so our nervous system is geared up to fight as if everything is red alert.
21:31 Esther Perel? The part that struggles more is the one that doesn't necessarily know to assess danger.
21:40 Esther Perel? Since danger is imminent and could happen anywhere at any moment, God forbid you got too comfortable, your whole marriage becomes a threat.
21:51 Esther Perel? It becomes a danger from which you need to leave right away.
21:56 Esther Perel? When in fact, you're having an argument about breakfast.
21:59 Speaker 06 About cheese.
22:01 Esther Perel? About cheese?
22:02 Speaker 06 The last one was about cheese.
22:03 Esther Perel? Cheese, glad, I was close.
22:06 Speaker 03 He didn't want cheese and I'm like, "How dare you!"
22:11 Speaker 03 I know he's a good man and I didn't want my anger to transform him or to push him away. And I think that is something that I would not forgive myself if I would have pushed him away because of my violence.
22:30 Esther Perel? The thing that I keep being moved by when I listen to you is that nowhere do you justify it.
22:42 Esther Perel? And I think that makes a big difference for him.
22:46 Esther Perel? At the same time, as you learn to speak with him in a way where you speak forcefully but without lashing out, he's gonna need to learn to stay and not continuously think, you know, "Nobody has a right to criticize me on anything" or even to ask me for anything or to make me feel anything less than perfect.
23:09 Esther Perel? That's the flip side of this, you see? She then goes around thinking, "I'm so bad", and you go around thinking, "I'm so good", and there's nothing more annoying than living with a saint.
23:20 Speaker 06 For me, it's almost, I don't know how to deal with it. Maybe because of that.
23:26 Esther Perel? Well, when she says, "I would love for you to bring me flowers", what's the problem with that statement?
23:30 Speaker 06 Exactly.
23:31 Esther Perel? Tell me.
23:32 Speaker 06 Nothing.
23:33 Esther Perel? Obviously, there is.
23:36 Esther Perel? Because you don't hear it as a request. You instantly hear it as a protest. You hear it as a criticism.
23:43 Speaker 06 Yes.
23:43 Esther Perel? And then you say, "Well, do you do it?"
23:46 Speaker 06 Right.
23:46 Esther Perel? And you do this eye-for-eye business.
23:48 Speaker 06 Yes.
23:51 Esther Perel? Then you go into a competition. Who does more? Who sacrifices more? Do you do that one too?
23:58 Speaker 06 Oh, sure.
23:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, all the time.
24:00 Esther Perel? Tell me about that one.
24:02 Speaker 03 Um, he comes home and I have the meal ready. One day I didn't and he's like, "Why is the meal not ready?" Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Kind of, you know, giving me the macho latino. And I'm like, "Uh, uh, uh." "No, honey, I work too. I'm tired too. You want dinner, you cook it yourself."
24:21 Speaker 03 And then he could, he would like, "Whoa," you know, or he gets angry, he gets like a little bit fussy, but that was it. And then on that note, on another day, I was trying to, he was falling asleep. And I was trying to kiss him or, you know, starting to, to try to do something. And then he's like, "I'm falling asleep. I'm tired." And then I got so angry. I'm like, "I'm tired too." But like, you know, like, we have to make time for these things.
24:46 Speaker 06 No, I was just, I was just falling asleep. I was very tired. And I wasn't thinking of that.
24:54 Speaker 03 And in a way, it's like that, you know, like he, he's always perfect, he's always fine. Whatever he does is great. So there's no more room for like improvement or to give like a little bit extra mile. You know, like I can give all the extra mile there is, but he, he won't.
25:11 Esther Perel? I mean, you do put her to work.
25:15 Esther Perel? And you have this interesting, if you allow me, way of thinking that you're entitled.
25:23 Speaker 06 Yes.
25:24 Esther Perel? There is an expectation that
25:27 Esther Perel? there should be a meal ready on the table when you come home.
25:31 Speaker 06 I was alone most of my life. So I would, I would come home and make my own meal. I got used to that. But now it's probably like, "Oh, thank you for, this is great. This feels great."
25:43 Esther Perel? But do you tell her this feels great? Or do you mostly tell her on the one day when she doesn't?
25:48 Speaker 06 I tell her on the day when she does. Well, I also tell her when she cooks for me. "Thank you, that was very nice. This is beautiful." I do tell her that as well. But also when he's not there, I'm like, "Why?"
25:58 Speaker 03 You tell me more on the day that there's nothing.
26:00 Speaker 06 Okay.
26:01 Speaker 03 Also, like if I'm watching Netflix and I'm just like my five minutes of Netflix and chill and you open the door, you expect me to come run and kiss you and welcome, "Honey, how are you?" And then he gets annoyed and he says that my iPad is my affair.
26:19 Esther Perel? But it wouldn't occur to you to walk over to her?
26:23 Speaker 06 What I mean, to walk over to her?
26:25 Esther Perel? Instead of waiting for her to leap towards you,
26:29 Speaker 06 Right.
26:29 Esther Perel? you could also
26:31 Speaker 06 Go towards her.
26:31 Esther Perel? go to her.
26:32 Speaker 06 Yes, yes, of course.
26:33 Esther Perel? But you're too good for that. See, that you would consider is humiliating.
26:39 Speaker 06 Yes, I am aware of a tremendous pride that I carry everywhere I go.
26:48 Esther Perel? What do you call him? The one that is so proud that anything that is not catered at the top can instantly make him feel deflated and humiliated?
27:00 Speaker 06 It's like a little prince, a principito, eh? Yeah? I mean, I catch myself being that person that I despise.
27:12 Speaker 03 Maybe this principito, it has also helped you at something. Because if you didn't have that pride, you couldn't have gone far in this country as an immigrant.
27:26 Esther Perel? It's a very nice moment here. She caught on to the idea that the part that she struggles with today is also the part that saved her as a child. And she realizes that something similar may be happening with him. That the part of him that he calls his pride and that he struggles with may also have been a part of his survival strategy earlier on. It's just a beautiful, empathic reach from her, and I just wish that I had highlighted it then.
28:04 Esther Perel? We need to take a break, but please, stay with us.
28:11 Speaker 07 Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.
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29:40 Speaker 06 Yeah, I'm not sure. I think I could have done much better without him.
29:44 Esther Perel? Describe your relationship with the Principito, because I agree with you. I'm not sure it has been so helpful. I think it has often actually made him say, "I'm too good for this."
29:58 Speaker 06 It has hurt me quite a bit in my career.
30:01 Esther Perel? I feel that. I feel that. Say more.
30:05 Speaker 06 I would say my career. Because I had an opportunity to be with amazing people. And I could have taken better advantage of that. By being more humble and learning from them. But the little prince was equal.
30:23 Esther Perel? The little prince was too busy trying to show how much he knew.
30:26 Speaker 06 Yeah, how good he was. He was just as good as everyone else. And I think in life, every day, walk around with these things, you just, you lose so much. Opportunity to meet, talk to people, connect.
30:42 Esther Perel? You come in here and you present like,
30:47 Esther Perel? you're a new couple, you're lots of great things. Except for the fact that she explodes. And her explosiveness is so disturbing to you and it completely paralyzes you, etc. But then, we find out this is predicated on this idea that, you know, you are the saint, you're the grounded guy, and
31:14 Esther Perel? and you are the...
31:15 Speaker 06 Emotional, right.
31:16 Esther Perel? Hysterical. Let's put the right word, you know. This way that you live with the "how dare you", "how dare you ask me", "how dare you tell me", "how dare you" usually is because I very quickly feel ashamed.
31:32 Speaker 06 And that creates all this anger.
31:34 Esther Perel? And I would invite you to have a conversation with him about that. You'll probably glean more.
31:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, I can see that.
31:45 Esther Perel? Ask him. Let him do the talking to you, since you always do the talking and he waits.
31:54 Speaker 03 Would you like to talk more about why you might feel that you get offended?
32:02 Speaker 03 Quickly.
32:06 Speaker 06 I'm so good, right? I'm great, I'm so wise, I've done all this meditation and I've done all this schooling. So, I deserve to be treated in a certain way. And he goes back to, I guess, the goodness of my dad. My dad was always a good man.
32:27 Esther Perel? But what did you consider him? You considered him good?
32:32 Speaker 06 Weak.
32:32 Esther Perel? Or you considered him weak?
32:33 Speaker 06 Weak.
32:34 Esther Perel? That's what this is.
32:35 Speaker 06 So he's like a beautiful man, always with a great personality, but I always felt like he never got what he wanted, he always was a nice guy, but...
32:45 Esther Perel? And you spend your time making sure that nobody takes advantage of you.
32:48 Speaker 06 Exactly.
32:49 Esther Perel? And so you fight even when you don't need to fight?
32:51 Speaker 06 Because if I drop that thing, I'm gonna be a weak person like my dad.
32:55 Esther Perel? You think that she's the fighter.
33:00 Esther Perel? Because she explodes.
33:03 Speaker 06 Personality, yeah.
33:05 Esther Perel? But you are both fighters.
33:08 Esther Perel? And, like you say, or like you allude to, it probably has not done you good. Certainly not in work.
33:18 Esther Perel? And it's not gonna do you good here either. Because you are with somebody who's very generous.
33:26 Speaker 03 See, I'm generous too.
33:32 Esther Perel? And don't let him convince you that you're not. You're very generous and he is continuously paying attention to every time you miss a beat. And not to every other time when you sing beautifully.
33:46 Esther Perel? Because you're so making sure that you are not being screwed.
33:53 Esther Perel? This dynamic is actually an opportunity. Because you are with someone who is not there to take advantage of you. And you're gonna learn what it's like to trust in that way.
34:08 Speaker 03 You know, when you have that armor with you, it feels like everything that I'm upset about, it's an illusion. And it's like if you're gaslighting me.
34:19 Speaker 03 And that's not a good feeling. So, thank you for being willing to remove that armor. Because it's...
34:27 Esther Perel? How does he gaslight you?
34:30 Esther Perel? Tell him.
34:31 Speaker 03 You gaslight me when I tell you, you know, how I feel. And you tell me, "Oh, no, you shouldn't be angry about that."
34:39 Speaker 06 Like I dismiss it.
34:41 Speaker 03 And then you make me feel that I am creating this idea in my head and that what I am feeling is not valid.
34:47 Speaker 06 For me, it's difficult when the situation goes from zero to a hundred in .2 seconds. You're like a Lamborghini.
34:55 Esther Perel? I think that's what's difficult for you. You're so busy with the zero to a hundred, but there's a piece before.
35:07 Esther Perel? And the piece before is that if she says I feel something, my guess is that part of why you tell her, "No, you don't", is because it's very hard for you to let her feel something without thinking that you're responsible about it.
35:24 Speaker 06 The zero to a hundred happens, the trigger is right behind it.
35:30 Esther Perel? But the first thing is she can't really easily tell you whatever she feels without you being defensive about it.
35:41 Esther Perel? Because it instantly triggers in you, "I'm responsible for it and I need to do something about it. And since I don't think I should do something about it or I don't agree with it, then I say, 'No, you have no validity.' And I disqualify. You shouldn't feel this way, you shouldn't want this." And then the Lamborghini gets going.
35:59 Speaker 06 Yeah.
36:01 Esther Perel? Because then she feels that, you know, she's disqualified and made invisible and she's going to show you.
36:09 Esther Perel? Lamborghini is inside of her, but you often have the ignition key.
36:15 Speaker 06 I got the gas.
36:17 Esther Perel? That doesn't mean that you can't learn not to explode, but there is a dance here that sets her up as well.
36:27 Esther Perel? Can she say, "I feel something," and you just say, "That's interesting." "How so?"
36:34 Speaker 06 Uh huh. Yes, that's very different.
36:37 Esther Perel? Can you give him a bunch of those statements, things you feel, want, experience, and just you practice being, you know, being available, basically, without being responsible, just being curious.
36:56 Esther Perel? Go ahead.
36:58 Speaker 03 I would like for you to come out with me on Friday night after you come back from work, because it's like our only night off.
37:10 Speaker 06 It makes me, I would love to. You know that Fridays I'm extremely exhausted, but we'll do something that will meet our needs. So sometimes I might not be in the mood to go dancing because I'm physically tired from a long week, but we can have a...
37:28 Esther Perel? Let me help you. I know you would love for us to go out on Friday night. I really like that, actually. I'm not sure I can do it each time, but I like the thought. And just repeat what she says. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to commit to anything. You don't have to engage with it. You just have to say...
37:49 Speaker 06 I like that. Sounds good.
37:51 Esther Perel? Or I hear that that's something that you would enjoy a lot.
37:54 Speaker 06 Uh huh.
37:56 Esther Perel? That's that.
37:58 Esther Perel? Most of the time, people just want to feel that they're acknowledged.
38:02 Speaker 06 Being heard, right.
38:05 Esther Perel? And the best way to do that is to repeat what they said. Period. Keep going.
38:11 Speaker 03 Honey, it would be great that you would be able to consider not to talk to your mom every night before we go to bed. And that that is the last thing you do before we get to bed together. I know you're worried about her. I know you're worried about your dad. But I feel that when you do that, you just go into a different mindset and you get very agitated or very sad. And I don't think it... Yeah, I don't think it's good for us.
38:49 Speaker 06 I hear what you're saying.
38:52 Speaker 06 What I can do is find ways to get information from her at a time that is not disruptive to the time that we can spend together. But I still feel that I want to know. I want to have updates and see how they're doing.
39:10 Speaker 03 Okay.
39:12 Speaker 03 How did we do on that one?
39:15 Esther Perel? You tell me. How did that feel?
39:18 Speaker 03 It felt good. It felt better. It felt more honest.
39:22 Speaker 03 It felt good.
39:23 Esther Perel? What would be the usual?
39:27 Speaker 03 You are not understanding my mom. You don't understand how she feels. She's going through a hard time. How can you not be more empathetic? Blah, blah, blah. Kind of.
39:41 Esther Perel? Which you know is not the case.
39:45 Esther Perel? This is a perfect example of the ignition of the Lamborghini. Because you're throwing stuff at her. That is utterly not the case.
39:55 Esther Perel? You bad.
39:57 Speaker 06 You don't care about my mom. Or you don't care about...
40:00 Esther Perel? Yeah, you bad. You bad. You don't care about my mom. You don't understand my dad. You don't see what imminent death is like. As if she doesn't, first of all. And then, you're telling me I'm bad? That brings back the entire relationship and the violence that I knew.
40:20 Esther Perel? What do you think she was told when she was being hit?
40:25 Speaker 06 That she's, you know, she's bad.
40:33 Speaker 03 And with the family especially, it's been hard because when you say hurtful things like, "Oh, you don't have a relationship with your mom."
40:41 Esther Perel? So you don't understand the closeness. Oh, yeah, you go to that place? You're good!
40:47 Speaker 03 "Oh, you don't speak to them." You are the weird ones. You're the ones that are not speaking with each other so often.
40:57 Esther Perel? What makes me smile, of course, is that this man, who is so worried about being manipulated, is a master manipulator. Because it's not just that he tells her, "You don't understand why I care about my father's health and I need the updates." But then he adds another layer of, "And of course, you couldn't understand, because you don't nearly have that kind of relationship with your parents." It's hostile. But he thinks of himself as good. And she has bought into the idea that she's the belligerent one and he's the kind one.
41:42 Esther Perel? All of that is kindle for the fire. But then you only see the fire. And you do not see how much you...
41:52 Speaker 06 Contribute.
41:53 Esther Perel? Yeah. And ignite it. Contribute to ignite it. Doesn't mean she can't resist it. But it doesn't come from nowhere. So this was much better. Find a way to connect with your parents before, not before you go to sleep, so that you can be the husband and not the son of.
42:12 Speaker 03 Yeah.
42:13 Esther Perel? But I think that you have a lot of things on your menu. And now it's about putting this in place.
42:21 Speaker 06 Yeah.
42:22 Esther Perel? And realizing that you won't leave here and suddenly transform, but you're going to practice this. And you have a good idea, actually, of what works, what is helpful, and what is undermining. And if you keep the degree of honesty with which you came here, also with each other, you're on a very good track.
43:12 Speaker 00 You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.
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