My OCD gave me existential dread! Finding meaning in difficult times, with poet & actor Lucas Jones

We’re all looking for meaning in life in our own way. Poet and actor Lucas Jones reckons it doesn’t really matter whether we call it God, The Universe, spirituality, or science, we all want to believe in the wonder in our world. In this chat, Fearne and Lucas bond over not being able to do small talk, instead wanting to deeply connect over their big feelings. They also both share their different experiences of having OCD. Lucas feels therapy is a brilliant thing – he’s really benefitted from CBT – but wonders if the rise in therapy comes from a loss of real community. How can we truly listen to and connect with each other again? You can buy Lucas’ book of poetry, I Still Believe In Miracles, now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Will Poulter https://pod.fo/e/2bd0dd Tuppence Middleton https://pod.fo/e/11128e Poppy Jamie https://pod.fo/e/43646b Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show for people who want to go deep immediately. Today I'm chatting to Lucas Jones.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  I kind of feel like over the years humanity's poisoned the word God, so now people don't want to be near it. They're happy to talk about the universe, that's fine, that word's that's like a clean word. You can say the universe, you can talk about your star sign, you can do your horoscope, you can do tarot cards, and you can all these other things that we're all describing the exact same thing. I think it's all pointing towards the same thing and it's this fundamental attempt to acknowledge the beauty, to acknowledge the wonder, to share the goodness, to fucking try. That's kind of enough, to just try. This world is chaos and madness and it's beautiful and wonderful and it's terrible and it's terrifying and scary and we're all gonna die. But I still believe in miracles, you know what I mean?

• 0:43Fearne Cotton?

  I am, just to let you guys know, Lucas Jones number one fan. I'm sure there'll be other people who will fight me for that accolade, but I really am. I'm such a massive fan of not only his poetry but also how he reads it. He is just such an incredibly talented human being who channels something really special. And I have spent so many hours watching his poetry online and just weeping. I'm so touched by how he writes about life. So I was really happy that he said yes to not only being on the podcast today but also coming to the Happy Place Festival in London last month. It was, it was one of my favourite

• 1:27Fearne Cotton?

  moments of the festival. I got to watch him sit there and read poetry to a really receptive crowd of people. People crying in the crowd, people hugging each other. It was just such a beautiful moment. He's so amazing. And if you don't know Lucas, and this is your introduction, I'm actually jealous. I'm jealous that you get to experience him for the first time because he's just incredibly, incredibly special. He's also gonna be at our Tatten Festival later this summer. We do the Happy Place Festival twice, once in London, once in Cheshire. So I'm honoured that he's gonna come up for that as well. You lot adore him as much as I do and that's why I'm so glad that we get to talk to him today. He's an

• 2:07Fearne Cotton?

  actor, a director, a screenwriter and a poet. And his beautiful poetry has captured the hearts of so many people online. If you are one of the people out there who's got a Lucas Jones tattoo, let us know because I know there are so many of you out there. You can now hold his words in your hand in his new beautiful book, I Still Believe in Miracles, Poems to Find Meaning in Difficult Times. Honey, money, we talk about so much in this chat, but I feel like we didn't even scratch the service and we need to do a part two. So we talk about connecting more over pain than joy. We talk about wanting to really feel things in a big way. I'm a feelings junkie. I wanna feel all of it. So that's what we talked about a lot. Weighing up the

• 2:48Fearne Cotton?

  different types of therapy and also OCD and how it manifests, something that we've both had experience of over the years. And god, we went off on all manner of OCD tangents. Also the impact of childhood on future character and also mental health. And why he wants to reclaim the word God.

• 3:08Speaker 02

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• 4:12Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. This is the show.

• 4:35Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. You good?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I'm really good. I'm really good. Thanks so much for having me.

• 4:39Fearne Cotton?

  Lucas Jones, thank you for being here. Oh my god. First of all, I will apologise for basically like dropping to my knees when you walked into the Happy Place Festival because I was so excited to meet you. I can't even tell you.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  It was the most amazing moment of my life, seeing you come around the corner mid, mid.

• 4:58Fearne Cotton?

  I'm doing a video.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Story and dropping to the floor. I fell to the floor too. It was a blur for me. I remember falling to the floor in sheer excitement and gratitude. It was also like such a lovely way to arrive and be welcomed. Because I was actually a bit nervous for some reason on Saturday. I don't know, I don't know what it was. I was a bit nervous and I saw you and I was like, ah, everything's great. It's all fine.

• 5:13Fearne Cotton?

  Everything is good.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Just washed away.

• 5:15Fearne Cotton?

  I am a massive fan of yours. So this for me is a treat and it was such a treat to have you at the festival. Not only on the talk stage, but you read poetry for the most receptive crowd of people. I was stood there watching and people were just hanging off your every word. It's a beautiful thing.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. Yeah, it was really special. But I think also because you've cultivated a very specific type of person at that event and everyone's.

• 5:38Fearne Cotton?

  Only nice people.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Only nice people. And everyone's on this exact same sort of understanding of the world. And it's like a real, I think if you're gonna, and you can tell me if this has been your experience, but I felt like there's a certain type of sensitivity and probably like a vulnerability even that comes with the type of person that is gonna be at that festival and is gonna be into my stuff. So that combination was like this beautiful, just like everyone was sort of felt like meeting people for the second time.

• 6:02Fearne Cotton?

  You're so right. And I have an inkling, it's something to do with whether it's the work you do, what we're doing at Happy Place in this podcast setting, but also what we try and do at the festival, is connecting with people through, yes, joy, but actually pain.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yes, ah, yes.

• 6:19Fearne Cotton?

  And I think we assume that we can only connect with people through like laughter and joy and good times, but I connect with people through pain, I think, much more easier. I don't know what that says about me.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  I guess probably she's saying that, the complete understanding of what he's talking about. Like I, I've never had anyone put it that way, but I think that's actually my sort of operating system.

• 6:36Fearne Cotton?

  That's your language.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  That's my language. I actually, I sort of can't trust people if we can't get into like a sort of trauma-based conversation pretty quickly. And maybe that's an unhealthy thing. Maybe that's a bit unhealthy. Maybe, you know what I mean? But I'm sort of like, if you, if we're sitting for like 20 minutes and you haven't come up with like your childhood or I'm sort of like, oh, I don't know if you're gonna get.

• 6:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, where's this gonna go? I think I need to leave. We're just still talking about your summer holidays, what?

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I find, do you feel like, sort of, and this sounds so mean, because there's times when small talk's really important, like with the post person and that, but I get physically, I feel physical pain, like a physical sense of like, we can't do this.

• 7:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I have a tension in my, in my chest here where it's like, I'm like nervous.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:14Fearne Cotton?

  I don't understand the dance of it.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  I think it's because I'm pretending. And it's like, it's inauthentic.

• 7:18Fearne Cotton?

  You're faking it, same.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I'm faking it, I'm completely faking it. If everyone's talking to someone and I'm like, oh yeah, like yesterday, lovely conversation with someone in a lift, but it went on, it was a long, it was like a tall building and I was sort of trapped in there for a minute. And they were, they were so kind and sweet and gracious, but I had nothing to say because the capacity, the situation doesn't allow for any.

• 7:35Fearne Cotton?

  You can't bring up childhood trauma on a lift ride.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  I was like six at school, I didn't even have any friends, but I was trying, you know, like it's like straight away, like it's, but do you think that's a healthy, is that a healthy thing?

• 7:44Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know. I think it's, it's some people's comfort zone and it's certainly mine. You know, I, I wanna go deep really quickly with someone. Like that's, that to me is, oh right, so they, they trust me and I trust them and we're connecting on a level. That's my favourite kind of thing. And so, you know, it, sometimes the reaction to that can be like, oh my god, I can't believe you just told me that about yourself. I'm an open book. I'll, I'll tell people whatever. But for, for others, it can be like, oh my god, it's, and sometimes I walk away going, did I overshare? Did I say too much?

• 8:19Speaker 01

  That's the constant. But I remember on like a date one time back in the single days and I like sat down, she like vaguely mentioned something about like a, something with her mum. And I was also like a really big, like, you know, is that an ongoing sort of thing with you and your mum? And she was like, can you at least get a drink first? And I was like, oh yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. We literally just sat down.

• 8:36Fearne Cotton?

  Do you have a therapy session?

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And I, I've just, but I feel like there's nothing else to say though. I kind of feel there's nothing else to say. And like, maybe, maybe there's, maybe it's like us trying to still work through stuff in real time and maybe sometimes I'm, I hope not, like using other people as a sort of like sounding board to alleviate and stuff, but.

• 8:53Fearne Cotton?

  It's okay.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Aren't we all in pain? Is that not the primary?

• 8:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. And maybe also like just listening to you talk there. Oh, we, and I'm talking about people that like to deal in this sort of conversation, this sort of language, constantly looking to feel something. Like I know I'm a bit of a feeling junkie. Like I want the song, the food, the atmosphere, the person to make me feel something. I'm not good with like, I can do numbing for a bit. I'll watch some fucking shit TV or whatever, but actually I wanna feel all of it.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  I'm in the, I'm the exact same person. Like I, I'll listen to the same bit of the same song 30 times. I'm not exaggerating. I'll literally drag it back until everyone's like, if it's out loud, my wife will be like, can you, like enough of that bit? Do you know what I mean? Enough of that. Just change song. It's fine, you can play another song. But, because I just feel it's like, I wanna absorb, or if I'm reading a book, I'll go back to the same line and stuff and be like, I just wanna so deeply feel every single.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Like I wanna burn every neuron and every bit of dopamine out of that. I don't think that's a bad thing because it's a very hard, because it comes from a place of like, what's the word, wonder.

• 10:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And I never lose the wonder. That's one thing I'm really grateful about. And I imagine you feel the same, haven't been at your festival the weekend. Because this is what's in the air. The wonder is still so present. And I think if there's one thing I've kept from my childhood very sort of pristinely, it's wonder. And I'm so grateful about that.

• 10:19Fearne Cotton?

  You can never get bored.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Never. Like walking down, walking through the street a minute ago, like the sun was hitting the building so beautifully. You mean, and I know that sounds a little bit trite and a bit cliched.

• 10:27Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  But when you actually notice it.

• 10:29Fearne Cotton?

  It's my fave.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:30Fearne Cotton?

  I am absolutely the same. And I have it with your poetry. There's, I mean, I love all your poetry, but there's a couple of your poems, especially when you're reading them aloud on Instagram. And I like, sometimes you know you have that feeling of, I need to cry about something. I'm not exactly sure what it is. I can go to anger quite quickly. So I know that if I'm feeling like a bit fucked off, there's usually sadness and I can't get to it.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:55Fearne Cotton?

  Like there's sadness trapped under the anger and I need to unlock it. And it could be a song, but actually there's a couple of your poems I will put on and I am in bits every time. And I will exhaust that, like you press the button again, watch it again, listen to the lyrics again, listen to the poem. But it gives you that release. I think that's what I'm looking for as well is whether it is music or a film or poem or a piece of artwork, something to like release stuff, like to get it out.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  So I wanted to hear that. And like, and thank you as well for all your kind words in this conversation. But in general, over the last, how many months we've sort of been back and forth a little bit. Really, really beautiful to know that has that impact. And I think I'm kind of, I can't, I don't think I can process reality without filtering it through art. Whether it's art I'm making or if I'm like watching, like if I need to have a cry, like, you know, you need to have a cry.

• 11:44Fearne Cotton?

  Need.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  When it's sort of like, I'm gonna be ill soon if I don't like have a serious release. Like I'll put film scenes on and I've got that sort of set, like a playlist in my head of compilations of a compilation of scenes I'll put back to back to back to be like, I know by that final scene, I'll be like, I'll be

• 11:57Fearne Cotton?

  In bits.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I'll be in bits. Yeah, yeah. And sort of ramp it up. It's kind of fun. It's sort of like, can I curate this experience? But I find it hard to like, cry for me. Do you know what I mean?

• 12:08Fearne Cotton?

  I do. Is it because you gaslight yourself? You're like, I don't deserve to cry. I'm not going to be sad about right now.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Immediately. So like, your life's so privileged and blessed. And but I, so I think I have to feel it through someone else's experience. And also, I guess empathy is a more important emotion than sort of self, what's the word, self-analysis maybe. But I, I'm not very good at that self-analysis thing. I think, I think I, I notice I do it in like, my writing or say her or you or she or something, when I really mean me. Because for some reason that sort of like locks in harder. If I say me, I get a bit like defensive and it's like, I'm fine, I'm doing. It's just so silly because the stuff I talk about all the time is so much about like, it's okay to feel that way and to ever know it's a very encouraged of that. But it's very difficult.

• 12:50Fearne Cotton?

  It's so true. I've learned over the years, and I actually say years, the last two.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Right, right. Still years.

• 12:57Fearne Cotton?

  I'm like learning all the time that gaslighting myself is no use to anybody.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:03Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not, I'm not a great person because I'm denying myself needs or the right to feel emotion or constantly comparing myself to other people. Yes, it's important to go, there are people going through far worse or whatever. But equally, there are things that I've learned in therapy. No, take the time to look at it and dig into it and to honour the fact that you're very, very sad about that, that you're very, very angry about that. That this has changed the course of your life in a terrible way. Like you're allowed to look at that and dive into it without feeling like it's self-indulgent. Or you're ignoring the empathy you have for other people. So I think I'm trying to bridge that at this point in my life.

• 13:47Fearne Cotton?

  Like I'm allowed to be, I'm allowed to be upset rather than gaslight myself the whole time.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  One hundred. And the anger thing is a big one, actually. And you touched on anger a minute ago, like, that's something that I think it's really hard to know how to place that healthily in your life. Because anytime it's expressed to other people, that doesn't feel right. Absolutely. When it's expressed inwardly, it doesn't really feel right. So it's hard to know how to correctly utilise anger, but it's as, you know, primary an experience as joy and laughter. And I think, you know, we don't berate ourselves when we laugh. And this is a kind of obvious thing to say, but the feeling of shame and apology that comes with anger and crying and, you know, there's very more, there's a very, I don't know, sort of colder emotions. I'm like, I'm finding it at this stage in my life quite, I'm kind of enjoying allowing that a little bit more. What kind of therapy do you do?

• 14:36Fearne Cotton?

  I've tried all of them, but I do straight up classic talk therapy once a week.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  And do you find that like, because the thing I think I've always, I've never done talk therapy. I've done like CBT, which I love.

• 14:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I love CBT. And the thing I'm like nervous about with talk therapy is like, sometimes I want to look at it. Sometimes I don't want to, I don't want to like touch the thing. You mean, and, and CBT is so practical and so sort of like, hit your car, I'm a mechanic, that's off, fix that image, which really works for me in my brain, actually.

• 15:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  And I'm sometimes like cautious about, I feel like I used to like do the thing where like trauma dump super hard really quickly. And I actually like these days, naturally I'm a bit further away from that. I sort of don't, I sort of don't lean into the traumatic past as much I used to. And I'm some nerve, I feel like I do need a little bit of something in my life at the moment, therapy wise. But I'm a bit cautious about like saying it, which is really odd. And I may, I may have been satisfied.

• 15:31Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know. There's something in like what, where, like where I, this is, I can only speak for myself. I'm never going to tell you what to do.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:40Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not going to tell anyone to do anything. But where the pain is in me, that's what, what I need to look at. Like I know it. And I've only ever benefited from looking intricately at the stuff that scares the bejesus out of me. That makes me, gives me the heebie jeebies. I don't want to look at it. It's looking at it that frees me from it. But I think you've got to, I don't think it's for everyone. I've met plenty of people who are like, I don't, I don't want to look in, I don't want to look back. I don't want to. And that suits them and that's fine. For me, it doesn't. I don't want any stone unturned. And I would like to

• 16:17Fearne Cotton?

  feel like I'm, I guess, living as fully as possible, but also moving through the world in that way, in the best way I can for my children, for my own, you know, state of mind, for my friends, for my family to be like fully present. And I don't feel I can do that unless I look at certain things that have haunted me and really troubled me over the years.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:41Fearne Cotton?

  Not fun, not fun.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Not fun.

• 16:44Fearne Cotton?

  But on a level very incrementally relieving.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:49Fearne Cotton?

  And I might be in therapy forever. I don't know. That's fine.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Maybe we should be. I mean, I, I've kind of feel like that's what life used to be in it. I feel like they used to be, maybe it was through a sort of religious relationship or some other spiritual relationship or just parental. We would be, you know, we'd be in our community a bit more solidly and you would have therapy in a natural, organic way. So maybe now we've sort of, in this strange secular age, we've removed all of the, the mentors and all of the leaders in our communities. And now we have to sort of, you know, corporatise our processing through a system like therapy, which is amazing. You know, I mean, I think it's, what therapy does in this culture is unbelievable, but I wonder if it used to be a sort of natural thing. But, but to touch on what you're saying, second, like the, the turn, the unturned stone thing, like I, I feel that really deeply.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  But the thing I've always struggled with is OCD. And like, I have realised I will just find endless stones, like my brain. And it's fascinating because it's such a creative thing to struggle with OCD. It's like so much of it is like clearly this burning desire to create. And if you're not creating outwardly, you start creating inwardly. And.

• 17:51Fearne Cotton?

  How interesting to think of it like that.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Well, I just, I think I've realised that's exactly, this is really odd and really hard to articulate and probably even sort of visualise. But I've noticed there's a time when my mind mostly was like crazy.

• 18:03Fearne Cotton?

  And how would it manifest? Like what has it expressing itself?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  It would be in, so people typically think OCD in the way of, you know, like obsessively cleaning their hands or cleaning their room or those sort of cliches. For me, it was like, I would have a thought that was uncomfortable and I would analyse that thought and why I'm having that thought. And then I would sort of expand the importance of that thought into this overwhelming unbearable weight. So it could be like, oh, for example, it would be like, what's a really, let me think of a really honest one, like of an actual worthwhile one, one that someone else might be feeling that would be worth them hearing, that I wish I'd had. Like one that I struggled with for a long time was like, when I was a teenager, someone asked me if I was straight or gay. And I was, I'm straight.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  And that simple question of me knowing I'm a straight person, but the possibility that what if you're actually a gay person? Then would like spin and spiral into like, whoa, there was that time you watched that film and he was kind of handsome, he thought he was handsome, maybe he's gay. And like I would, and the, the, and the still to add into this that I come from a family and my beliefs, well, if I was getting old, I'd care anyway. It wouldn't even be like, you know.

• 19:06Fearne Cotton?

  But this is the, the thought loop you're in. Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  And what it, what it sort of came down to in therapy was that what I was struggling with was this existential dread, that I wouldn't be able to live the life I want to live. So knowing that I'm a straight person, knowing that I've always, you know, relationships with women and I'm really excited to marry a woman one day and so on and so forth. My brain was like, but you won't have that if, if you're gay or if you're this. So it could be any other thing. And that was just a sort of really odd niche example that maybe someone is struggling with.

• 19:33Fearne Cotton?

  But OCD is niche.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  It's so niche and it's niche, it's individual to each person.

• 19:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  And so that was like the, one of the early ones that I have. I didn't know, I didn't know I had OCD till I was like 25. So I was sort of just in this constant state of anxiety of like, why am I so like, I thought I was just a warrior. I thought I was stressed about things and a bit neurotic. And that would like kind of die down. Then it'd be something else like, I don't know, some other vague thing about like health anxiety or whatever, the more typical things. And then when it was really bad, I was like, I was really alone, living alone in lockdown. And I was like doing this play and the play stopped. So I was literally just in my little studio flat in London, seeing no one ever. And I was like putting together like a sofa or something and had this thought of like, oh, it's so funny that like, you're the only person in this room. Therefore, you're the only person experiencing this. How can you prove it's happening?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  And then my OCD was like, how can I prove anything's ever happening? How can I ever prove that anything's ever happening? What if I'm in this strange, like, and it just spiralled into this insane, actually insane sort of like level of terror. And the weird thing is you don't lose insight with OCD. So you know what you're thinking is ridiculous. Like you know that what you're worrying about is just absurd arbitrary nonsense and noise. But like you still can't help but like try and solve this infinite riddle in your head. So that was when I was like, I think I need some pre severe therapy. And like, and I had to cool with like the, the therapy, um, you know, before you get the main bit, your self assessment. I was in that section and like, it was meant to be like a nine month mailing list. And I was like, yeah, so I'm just sort of feeling like this and they're like, I think we're free next week. I think we do next week. And they're like, sort of fast tracked me to like, yeah.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, I think it's pretty bad. But then amazingly, after doing like a bunch of EBT, I don't have that anymore.

• 21:03Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  I don't have that anymore. Like I, my brain will try to do that and I have the tools now to go, oh, that's just that fucking thing. That's just that fucking dumb, annoying thing. Shush, shush, shush, shush, shush. And like what I've learned, the, the way to break it is to just agree with it. Okay, cool. Yeah, nothing's real fine. All right. Ooh, I mean, like what's, what, and then what, and then what? Let's say, you know what I mean?

• 21:22Fearne Cotton?

  I love that because whatever, because if you stay in the resistance of it.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:26Fearne Cotton?

  That's when it won't go away.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Exactly. And actually, that's what I think the suffering was and probably all life is this like the suffering was this constant. But I know, no, no, no, no, no, no, this fighting against, that's fine. Yes, yeah, well, of course, all right, mate. All right, nothing's real fine.

• 21:38Fearne Cotton?

  I have to do that if I have insomnia that I go, don't fucking sleep then.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:43Fearne Cotton?

  Don't fucking sleep then. Just lie here and be awake all night.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 21:46Fearne Cotton?

  And then I'll fall asleep.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Oh, it's amazing.

• 21:52Speaker 02

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• 22:22Speaker 03

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• 22:55Fearne Cotton?

  I had OCD for, for a bit and I'm constantly fascinated with how it manifests. I still have teeny, teeny bits of it. I'll have some of the cliche ones like before I go to bed, I have the check every window, every door and the hob's off.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Plugs and stuff.

• 23:08Fearne Cotton?

  Have to touch every hob. It's all the, all the usual shit. And I'm kind of like, I can live with that. It, it takes five minutes. But if my insomnia is bad and I'm already anxious, what will then spark is this loop of, I get into bed. I'll have one more wee. I get into bed. I'll have one more wee.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  The wee one, yeah.

• 23:28Fearne Cotton?

  Get back into bed. I'll have one more wee. No wee's coming out, but I can't not do it. I can't not do it.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  I don't know exactly.

• 23:35Fearne Cotton?

  And I, it's, it's better, it's better. But like last week before the Happy Place Festival, when I was stressed and I'd been working really long hours on this TV show and I was feeling anxious, like what if I can't turn it on for the festival and I'm just like mute? And I was like panicking about my capabilities of being there. I was like, oh, that started and it was getting a little bit worse each night in the lead up to it. Like I'm going five times and going six, but at its worst, I had one time about five years ago where I did it all night.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Really? And just didn't sleep at all? Oh my God.

• 24:07Fearne Cotton?

  And it was bleak.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Well, it, that ruined your life. Like that's when it starts to actually.

• 24:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Like you realise this is going to destroy. This is so, this is what I found interesting as well, actually. I started realising that this is already worse than whatever I think is actually happening. Do you know what I mean?

• 24:23Fearne Cotton?

  How ironic.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  How ironic. Like this, this sort of constant turmoil I'm in and this like pain of, because my compulsions were never in the world. So it was even, it was even harder to identify.

• 24:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  It was just sort of internal riddle solving. And like, I realised like this, I can't live, like this is, and I don't mean to sound in a, you know, I guess just honest. I can't imagine being able to survive like another year of how I was feeling for that, like three month period. Where like a bird would land on the window and it for some reason triggered me about like, what if that bird's not real or something?

• 24:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Like I can't imagine being able to, and I did, actually I did start doing one compulsive thing. Actually, this was the first time I started taking photos of stuff. So I could be like, like I was in my head, like, also it's embarrassing. This is so weird. OCD is embarrassing. And I was embarrassed. I was like feeling this sort of like fear that I knew better than, but I started like taking photos of things. So later I'd be like, just to check that did happen, just to check I was like actually, you know, sort of some weird. And even though, as, as you're doing it, you're like, this is so dumb, man. This is so silly. I know so much better than this. But the, the, like getting up to wee one, it's like, so wait, you, you've had insomnia forever? Is that like a?

• 25:27Fearne Cotton?

  No, no. I, um, I was kind of, I don't know. I always used to think that I, that any mental health issue I had started in my early thirties. But from 19 to 29, I was bulimic, but I thought that was just like something stupid that I used to do. I didn't see it as that was a mental health issue.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right.

• 25:48Fearne Cotton?

  Because we didn't have the language for it back then. And I thought, I was just like a dumb young person who got into this bad habit. And I hadn't looked at that. So it obviously predates my early thirties. But then it was, had low patch of mental health that then kind of lifted slightly, but then the anxiety kicked in. And I haven't ever really totally got a hold of it.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 26:10Fearne Cotton?

  Like it's not where it used to be. I'm not, I couldn't drive on the motorway because I was having panic attacks and all sorts of stuff.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:17Fearne Cotton?

  Um, but I still have bits of it. Like I said, like last week, I was so anxious, like more than I have been for ages. So that again, I find really helpful going back to talk therapy to go, right, well, why have I gone backwards with this? And I wonder how you, or what your thoughts are on this. So one thing my therapist has said to me about anxiety, well, I first went to see her about two and a half years ago.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Fearne Cotton?

  I said, I don't know if I've got like panic disorder or some anxiety condition. I don't know what's going on, but I'm having panic attacks constantly.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:49Fearne Cotton?

  If I bump into someone in the street that I know I'm like instantly like having a heart attack, like I can't deal with any of it. I can turn it off sometimes, like in some work settings, I'm flat line, brain cool and I'm fine. And then it could be something so simple, like, I don't know. I'm, I mean, this is ridiculous, but I'm going on holiday. What a lucky, privileged thing. But that anxiety of, oh my God, it's a new place and I don't know it. And my kids don't know it and the flight and like all of it. I wouldn't, there's no way I'd sleep a night before I went on a trip somewhere. And she said to me very quickly, within that first session, I don't think you're anxious at all. I think you're really angry.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Oh, whoa.

• 27:30Fearne Cotton?

  And I was like, I don't know about that anger. I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm angry. And it didn't resonate at all, not one bit. And then I kept going back, kept going back. And I don't know at what point, but down the line, I was like, oh, I'm fucking livid. I'm so angry and I don't know how to, like you said a minute ago, like what do you do with that?

• 27:52Speaker 01

  What do you think anger, did you know what you're angry about or was it just this random interesting?

• 27:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like quite, quite a lot of things that I, again, gaslit myself, you know, about all sorts of things. So I could start to then identify and go, I'm angry about that. I'm angry about that. And then look at like, how the fuck do you deal with that? I, I think, and this is also a therapy thing, a brilliant way to get rid of anger. Obviously there's all the physical thing. Go for a walk, go for a run, hit something like box a pillow, like whatever.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Screaming is a good one.

• 28:23Fearne Cotton?

  Actually, writing is such an effective way of getting anger out. You write that angry fucking email or letter and you do not send it, but you get it out of you. And I think whether it is creative writing, a diary, a journal, a poem. It is your way of getting it out of your body and onto a page. I mean, there's lots of things I want to pick up on that. I guess first, with your own OCD, which is an anxious kind of situation. It's a, it's a, it's an issue that's born from anxiety. Do you think there's anger attached to that? It might not be for everybody.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  No, absolutely. Absolutely. I actually think, I remember this really well, like when, oh, there's so many stages I want to talk to you about of like, when this is relevant. Like, but there's a point when I, I was having panic attacks. I found out I was like diabetic, type one diabetic, like 2018, something like that, 20, I don't know, 2020, something like that. And it was like quite late and quite odd and it disrupts your whole life, you know, because I'm not going to deal with this thing. And I wasn't really that fussed about it, but it was just annoying. And then I started like, and this is when, I know how you said you, you thought it started in your thirties. I realised now, looking back at like all of my life, it's like, oh, that was all OCD. Like that was all of my sort of ways of operating was all OCD thinking and behaviour, magic, magical thinking. And so at that time, someone saying, oh, you might have a hypo, which is when your blood sugar goes low.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  That was the perfect thing for my brain to be like, you might have a hypo at any minute. You might have a hypo, you could be in the middle of, like a, like a act as well. So you could be on, on set and you have a hypo and then what, then, you know, you're going to lose a job and then like all, any situation. And then I had some mad panic attacks by that all the time. I was in like New York and I had this crazy panic attack and I ran into a restaurant. I need, I need, I need a coke because I'm on a hypo. And they, you know, gave me a coke and I realised my blood sugar was fine. I'd just had a panic attack. And I was like on my own in New York. And I was like, I, this is insane. I'm, I'm so ill. Right now I was like ill with a panic disorder.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  And all that to say that at that time, I actually think I was using anger to like stay afloat. Because anger, at least anger is like a sort of active, sort of, you kind of feel.

• 30:24Fearne Cotton?

  It's got an energy behind it.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  It's got an energy behind it. Whereas when you're just scared, you're so vulnerable and frozen.

• 30:29Fearne Cotton?

  You're fucking frozen.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  At least when you're angry, you're sort of like, you can be a bit vicious towards it. So I sort of lived on anger for like six to eight months until I started therapy for the first time. And yeah, I, I, I think the anger thing is really funny. And I was a lot, there's a lot of anger in my writing actually as well. Like I, I think I have a lot of anger. Um, and I think it kind of informs everything I do actually. There's a lot to be angry about. Like I'm like, there's a lot in my, in our personal lives.

• 30:55Fearne Cotton?

  In the world.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  In the world, in the most profound ways. So I think I kind of, I love anger quite, quite a bit. But it's funny, I, yeah, I remember being, the first time I sort of, when I think back to now, when I look back and I realise how much of my makeup and upbringing was OCD based. Like, the very first thing I remember experiencing was I was like five and I was like, say, oh, night, mum, love you. And in my head, I'd be like, what if you actually hate her? And it would start there and it was like that and like, I think from, I think it gives you this sort of, like, I look back at my childhood and I'm quite, I don't wanna wear this. I wouldn't say resentful, but I'm like, I'm saddened to think that that little kid had to go through so much without knowing what I was.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  I mean, and like, and it's probably the closest I can to feeling sorry for myself in a way, because like, I do think like, man, if someone said to that five year old, I'll make you just, like, your brain's just tripping. If I had to say a prayer happen, you know, when I was twenty, whoever was five, when I was like five and someone was like, oh, your brain's just gonna say it, just like, you can actually ignore it. Promise you ignore it and just agree with it and it'll go away. Like, it's just, you know, you're just creative. You're just, like, oh, the years of relief that would have, you know, come with, or maybe not. And maybe, maybe all of that was just kind of a gift that I get to now. We get to this conversation.

• 32:08Fearne Cotton?

  There's certainly no going back. Do you know what I mean? There's certainly no going back. So we have to kind of find a way, whether it is to make peace or to just live uncomfortably beside certain things that still don't feel great. I don't think there's any perfect life where anyone feels like, I have made peace with everything and everything feels comfortable. And also, I don't know, would you lose a bit of what you can do?

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Would you like that life?

• 32:33Fearne Cotton?

  Like, could you write a poem just feeling, yeah, I'm feeling pretty normal today, actually? Like, what the fuck are you gonna write about?

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Just like, everything's fine.

• 32:42Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you say this in one of your poems.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I met God at the supermarket, I think that was about, yeah, like, a film where everything's fine and then nothing happens and wow, sorry. And, you know, like that, like, that's, what a fucking shit story.

• 32:52Fearne Cotton?

  What a shit story.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  And also, what do you have to offer anyone? You have nothing to, to share and, and I, I think all the time now, all of the negative, my life's really nice now and I'm really, and I've, like, I'm mentally very well. And I'm like, supported and things, I'm here having a lovely conversation with you and it's like, you know, things are good, things are really good. And I'm present enough and well enough to enjoy it and notice that it's good as it's good, which is, I think, from where I was like, how many years ago, that time I was describing,

• 33:20Speaker 01

  I did not seem like it was on the cards, you know what I mean?

• 33:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  I was gonna play it that time as well, like, being like, and kind of like you said, this weird thing happened where I could be like, actually severely mentally well, but I'd do the play and I'd be fine.

• 33:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  And like, in the play, I'd be like, really on, I'm really like with it, or like, if I was on camera, oh, fine, fine, fine. And the second I'm not, it's like, which is, which, what do you think that is?

• 33:38Fearne Cotton?

  Cause I think it's something to do with like, knowing you've, that there's a level of focus to, there's one task and you just do the one task. Cause I used to be able to go on Radio One and be like, no one would know, I'd be fine.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 33:51Fearne Cotton?

  And then afterwards, I'd be an absolute mess and I couldn't do like the, the normal life things at all. So I think there's a level of, you click into, and I have this one task and I'm gonna complete it. And then, then when your brain's got any level of space to play around with, that's where, I used to have a thing where I'd imagine the worst case situation happening in my life and I used to believe it was a premonition. And I had to have a therapist say to me, it's not, you're not psychic.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:22Fearne Cotton?

  It's not a premonition. This is just, it's a lie, it's nonsense, it's rubbish. And I was like, really? Cause I, I, I truly believe it's a premonition. She's like, it's not a premonition. I had to have someone tell me.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that was exactly, that was one of the best things, actually, I've probably as well. Um, I, one of my therapists, this is exactly what happened. She goes, I was talking about similar sort of thing, I was, I'm just really worried about, and she goes, okay, so you think that what you think is really important and really powerful, make that wall fall down?

• 34:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  And, and I was like, I know that. And she's like, no, seriously, no, look at, look at the wall, make the wall fall down. And I was like, sat for like, you know, top minutes, like, on the Zoom, like, staring at the wall. And she was like, it's still standing? I was like, yeah, it's still standing. And, and it did highlight something really fascinating, there's, there's actually a little, and I mean this with love to anyone who's struggling with this, and I mean this about myself. It was really helpful for me to realise, there's actually quite a bit of narcissism in OCD. Because this sort of thing, I would, I used to think like, um, this is a common one, if I didn't like pray for someone I love, they might die. And it's, oh, so you're, you're in charge of the universe. So if you don't pray, you mean, someone else is gonna die. Oh, wow, wow. Like, it's this completely self-centered idea.

• 35:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's also, I think it's self-centered, but it's also, like you say, in the most empathetic possible way, because it's fucking horrible.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 35:34Fearne Cotton?

  But there's also this sense of inflated responsibility. Like, that I used to believe that I was responsible for everybody in my world's happiness and that, like, the butterfly effect. Any one thing that I'd done, I'm the reason that they're miserable, their life's fucked up, whatever. It was such an inflated sense. And again, it took one therapist to say to me, stop being responsible for the things that you're not responsible for. They're not yours. Like, deal with your emotions, your reactions to things, you're not responsible for, like, the whole world.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:08Fearne Cotton?

  Like ridiculous thinking, yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Has there been a time when you were responsible? Because I, I, I think about, I felt the same way. And then I think about like, when I was a kid and there were sort of times when like, my mum wasn't very well, like mentally or, you know, and she's amazing now, I'm fine, which is fantastic, but like, and I was a bit too self-aware and a bit young to be sort of able to actually, actually, I can sort of cheer up. And I can, you know what I mean? And like, God bless, that was, that's a sort of amazing gift as well, I think. But, um, you sort of look back and you think like, God, that's, that's a lot of taking on a lot of responsibility for like a six, seven year old to sort of be like, I can make, I can cheer the whole house up. I could watch me, and like, actually kind of do it, kind of be like funny and play and like, sort of shift the mood and go, and that, me and the people now, we're sort of like, maybe I have the magic, maybe I, you know what I mean?

• 36:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And maybe no shit, you've ended up doing the job that you do because you're like, I can, I can cheer people up.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:58Fearne Cotton?

  I can make people feel something.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  It's kind of, but you must get that all the, you must, people must come to you non-stop and be like, thank you so much, you saved my life.

• 37:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but I think even before I got into like doing happy play stuff with just presenting, you do realise that you've got the power to like, play a nice song and make people feel, I mean, I didn't see it as a power, I saw it as a responsibility.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:15Fearne Cotton?

  Again.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:16Fearne Cotton?

  Like, I have to make sure that people are happy listening to this, enjoying this, whatever. And I guess, yeah, you know, I, I started work young, so I had actual responsibility young. But I think also, and I hope I'm not saying anything that my mum would not want me to, because she, you know, she came on the podcast, we've talked about her own mental health, which

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Right, oh, wow.

• 37:34Fearne Cotton?

  has always been like up and down and her mum had, um, really poor mental health and she was in a day psych ward a lot in my mum's childhood and that's impacted my mum. And, and I think if you know there's that, you know, fluctuating mental health going on for somebody, even when you're not aware of it, you're not as a kid, it's just your normal.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 37:54Fearne Cotton?

  Whatever the, the situation is. You know, that you, you do have maybe a heightened, a hyper-focus sort of awareness of someone else's mood or where they're at or what's going on or the stress that they're under. It must impact you, I'm sure.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, yeah, my mum has P N D D, but back when we were, that wasn't, that wasn't a thing.

• 38:16Fearne Cotton?

  Not a terminology.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Not a terminology. So she, she would go to the doctor and they'd be like, I just think, you know, you need to change the scenery, go for a few more walks and that kind of classic sort of like, just complete gaslighting.

• 38:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  And it's fascinating. And now she's like, gonna be older, she's like, and post that being initially, just the most steady, constant, like, positive person in the world. She always was positive and always amazing. She did, you know, incredible job raising us through having like untreated P N D D, just sort of grin and bear and, you know. But like, with that comes, anybody knows anything about that, like, a tremendous amount of sort of tumultuous chaos, actually. And times where you just can't be on, can't be on. So I think in that, that kind of environment definitely makes you, there's like a background anxiety all the time. Cause you never know when the tide's gonna turn a little bit. And the, the worry, it wasn't something like, I would be in trouble or I'd be, it's sort of like, what if that person comes so low that they can't bear anymore?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  That was sort of the, the fear. So I think growing up with that, like, it's not, it's not, it's not a wonder to me why I've grown up to be quite sort of like, like a neurotic.

• 39:21Fearne Cotton?

  Well, where did the, um, expression of that come from? Because obviously, we, we've all got the opportunity to have an outlet for whatever we're feeling. And it could be as simple as telling somebody, it could be a painting, it could be going for a run, it could be pure rage and like, you lose your shit. But you have found this way of, of managing to process what you're feeling and expressing it into poetry. When did that happen?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  That's, that's a good question. Yeah, I think, I think, when I, I remember the first thing I ever wrote, I was like in the bath and I was like five. And I remember like rhyming something about a cat and being like, oh, I'm quite good at that. Like, I had this like sort of natural like pull towards using words, kind of like, uh, as a bit of a game, sort of thing. And I think something about words just always made sense to me. I think like some people's brains are wired to be really good at maths and be able to paint and, you know, and I'm terrible at those things. But something about fitting words together to perfectly articulate and sort of undescribable thing has always come quite, I don't wanna say easily, but that has always been fun to me. So like, it's never a chore to do some writing.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  It's never like, I'm talking about writers, but I've never experienced that, cause it's just like, it's only ever like, just a joy, you know what I mean? And it can't sort of stop me doing it, which is convenient now.

• 40:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's so great.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Thank you. I mean, it's, it's really, yeah, it's really, it's really lovely. But I, um, I just think it's the, I always think it's the, the, cause language isn't perfect. Like, it's really hard to articulate an idea and almost, I think we almost never do. And like, we're sitting there trying to find the words consciously and presently to get to the thing. But we never like, you're never quite, like, I know I'm gonna leave and be like, there's like probably 10 things I could have said that would have been way more crystal clear than I managed to get to, if you know what I mean? So like, it is a fun, endless game to try and.

• 41:07Fearne Cotton?

  But a poem does it.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  When a good, a good one really nails it.

• 41:10Fearne Cotton?

  A good one.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you know, sometimes you, like. It would sound really grandiose if I believed it came from me. I don't, I don't believe it comes from me at all. There are times when you like finish the thing, you go, that is exactly the thing I'm trying to say. And it's such a nice, but you must feel it when you paint and like when you're.

• 41:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I do. But I think there's something about, you know, I spent a lot of my career interviewing musicians. And there's something about the very, very top echelon musicians where they have that, they're channeling something. And I remember Chris Martin saying, oh, I like to stay up at night because I can catch all the songs when everyone else is asleep.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Oh, so good.

• 41:45Fearne Cotton?

  And I was like, because you do, because you do, you're again, you're, and a good song, I'm not talking a good song, an exceptional song. An exceptional poem.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  A fix you.

• 41:55Fearne Cotton?

  A fix you is like how you put together the right fucking words.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:01Fearne Cotton?

  That are universally, I mean, there's always going to be people like, oh, fucking hate Coldplay, whatever. But most people will hear fix you and it's like a dagger to the heart. You feel it. You feel it that the words translate to a visceral feeling that evokes memories and visuals and all sorts. And that is, it's, it's mad. I mean, my friend, I don't know if you met my friend Donna Lancaster at the festival, but she was doing a talk of Jordan Stevens. She's an amazing mentor to me and Jordan and other people. She's a fantastic person. And, and a little while back, I sent her a couple of your poems on Instagram and she said, oh my God, this is a prayer.

• 42:43Fearne Cotton?

  This is a prayer. And I was like, yes, it's a prayer. And that doesn't have to be a religious.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  No, it is a prayer. That's true.

• 42:51Fearne Cotton?

  Thing, but it's a prayer.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  I never thought of it that way. Yeah, it is absolutely prayer. And I guess that's what the Coldplay thing is, isn't it? It's like if you, if you get the prayer right, so, oh, I forgot to keep my, so if you get the prayer right and everyone understands the prayer. Like, that's the thing that, and I do, there's something real about that, early hours in the morning things. Well, I do the same thing. I stay up till like.

• 43:10Fearne Cotton?

  Do you?

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said, that's a bit of a problem though. Like I'll stay up till seven sometime. I don't want to. I really don't want to. And now I'm married, I can't because she will leave me.

• 43:19Fearne Cotton?

  She's a comfort, for fuck's sake.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Before, when I lived alone, and this doesn't hurt my mental health, to be fair, staying up till seven and like getting up like 11 is not a good way to live. But, but like I'll happily stay up till three, four every day and write and like, it's because it's just, you, you're, it probably is simply just that there's nothing else to attract you. But there is something, it feels like there is something sort of mystical and you're tapped into a different space, a different, you're in the twilight hours. It's something like the sun's gone. Do you mean, there's something real about that. The sun's no longer here. What do we have left after the sun leaves? Like, and what do we talk about when the sun leaves? It's a prayer. That's really beautiful. Thank, thank.

• 43:55Fearne Cotton?

  How cool. How cool.

• 44:01Speaker 04

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• 44:16Speaker 02

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• 45:19Fearne Cotton?

  At the end of the day, and this sounds very wanky, any excellent art is about trying to grab hold of that intangible, ephemeral other thing that we don't know how to articulate. It maybe some people just think we, oh, well, there are plenty of people that think we're just blobs walking around on a planet randomly bumping into random people, whatever. I can't, I feel depressed. It makes me feel bleak thinking that it, what, it's just we're sat in two chairs and there's nothing to it. Like for me, it has to be about meaning and there's something other that we don't know how to articulate or describe. And music, art and poetry are some of the ways where we can get close to what that is.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I completely agree. I also just think the sort of we're nothing, this doesn't mean the thing, we're just random blo, I think it's a really stupid theory. I think, I think it's really arrogant. I think it's really cynical, but also just think it's not a good theory. I think it doesn't hold, it doesn't hold much water. It's like, I think people have been put off the idea of spirituality because a lot of religions have abused it over the years. So when people hear the word God, me included, actually, I remember going to church and like then talking about God when I was a little kid and like then talking about gay people being sinners. And like, like tugging my mom being like, that bit's not right. I think, because I was raised to believe the obvious truth that that's not the case. And my mom going, yeah, that bit's not true. You know what I mean? And like being like, oh, that bit's not true. Then someone's just taken the sort of vague.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and I think, you know, like the argument for there being a God or there being, whatever you want to call that thing that we're describing, that we're talking about the prayer. Whatever the prayer is to, whatever it's in honor of, which I think is just existence itself, goodness itself, if you will. Like whatever that thing is, is no more supernatural than describing the formulation of the universe in the most scientific term. That's, that's what we're talking about. I mean, if people talk about like how the heart beats or how blood flows or how thoughts occur, we're talking about magic. We're talking about like, you know, and there's this really, if you've ever seen that illustration of, there's like a child standing on a pile of books and they can see through a small crack in the wall and in the distance they can see the sunrise. It's really fascinating. So that's the first child. There's three children.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  There's a next child or the sort of middle teenager, whoever, they stand on a slightly higher stack of books and the wall has no crack in it there. So they're just looking at a blank wall and the final person is standing on so many books, they can see over the whole wall and they can see the whole sunrise. And it's kind of the implication being like in childhood, there's something you can kind of vaguely feel, remember, have a sense of memory of. In your like middle life, you sort of lose that and things become very cynical and cold, black and white, concrete reality is just boring, fucking chaos and doesn't matter. And then as you sort of go further into that exploration or adventure of meaning, you go, oh, it's kind of about the first time. And now I see it more vividly. Yeah. It's like, I kind of, I kind of, I don't know where it's from. If anyone can find that, I'd be really grateful to do that again because I lost it a long time ago. But I kind of feel like that. And it's like, I feel like science is sort of starting to, you know, the religion and spirituality was originally a sort of scientific exploration.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  It's become a very sort of, I don't want to say cynical, because I guess a lot of people still feel a lot of magic at that. But the reason, the sort of explaining the way of any mysticism of it is, and spirituality of it, I find kind of silly almost. Because now we're looking, we get to a stage where we look at like quantum mechanics and it sort of becomes magic again. So all right, it's just magic. It's just, it's just pure, like unexplainable, you know?

• 48:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Um, so I do, I don't think it's like this, I think it's a shame that there's a sort of implication that you're not that intelligent. If you think there's more to this, I think that's really silly. And actually that, I think that's a very middle, middle child in that diagram way of thinking.

• 48:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree. Like, how can we think that we know how this works? This is all too huge for us to get our heads around. It's all too huge. It's mad. I mean, I was fascinated when first stumbling across your poetry, that you use the word God freely. You know, some of your biggest poems that have got millions of hits, you know, millions of people are sharing these poems. They are reaching people at the right time and they're cracking their hearts open in the best possible way. And some people will go, well, what, why are we using the word God? Like, what does that mean to you? There's, you know, like you say, when you met God at the supermarket, this beautiful poem about, well, people just need to go and watch it. Cause it's this amazing, I get such an amazing feeling from listening to you speak those words about

• 49:34Fearne Cotton?

  how short and quick this life is and how we're not present and we take it for granted and we're not looking at what's real. But you do use the word God. So what does that mean to you?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of want to reclaim the word God because I think when you say God to some people, they see this sort of, it's immediately blocked by this sort of church asking you to donate money or this, you know, irresponsibly behaving, biased, prejudiced belief system that's been like manipulated. The kind of like our experience of, you know, someone saying something about your sexuality being important is if God would care about that. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's been this human, this, I kind of feel like over the years, humanity's poisoned the word God. So now people don't want to be near it. They're happy to talk about the universe. That's fine. That word's, that's like a clean word. That's like the new sort of like, you can say the universe. You can talk about your star sign. You can do your horoscope. You can, you know, you can like do tarot cards and you can, all these other things that we're all describing the exact same thing.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And I think people who really love God, whatever that is, and love life and love reality, I think they, they understand that. They understand that their religion is just a housing thing. You know, it's definitely wrong. That's why, this is why, this is why I think I'm trying to, if, if you can't look at your belief system and know that of course it's nothing like, the, the reality can't be anything like what I believe it to be. And yet I will love anyway. Yeah, I will choose to go to church because that's the closest I can get. I'll, I'll, you know, pray five times a day if that's your thing. Because that's the closest I can get. I will, whatever your religion might be or your belief system, I think it's all pointing towards the same thing. And it's, it's this fundamental. Attempt to acknowledge the beauty, to acknowledge the wonder, to share the goodness,

• 51:08Speaker 01

  to fucking try, just to try actually, that that's kind of enough to just try. And that's kind of what the book's called, Still Believe in Miracles. If anything, it's the missing word is like, but I still believe in miracles. Because it's like, this world is chaos and madness and it's beautiful and wonderful and it's terrible and it's terrifying and scary and we're all gonna die. But I still believe in miracles, you mean, like I still.

• 51:29Fearne Cotton?

  It's hope.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  It's hope. Yeah, exactly. I think I think God is just hope and and.

• 51:34Fearne Cotton?

  If we didn't have hope, it would be, we would not get out of bed in the morning.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:39Fearne Cotton?

  We wouldn't. And and that's, that's why I I personally always want to believe in something more. Or or to even pray in a non-religious, specific manner.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:52Fearne Cotton?

  Because praying to me, whether it's like a quick thing before I go to bed in my head, or even when you know someone's going through something, or globally, there's something going on. That you decide to focus on the hope, that there is hope and there could still be good outcomes or something positive from a shitty situation. That's what it feels like to me. It's not like asking for, asking for things.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:17Fearne Cotton?

  Please can I have, like, it's, it's hope. It's literally hope.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  That that became my prayer. And I don't even know what, um, like, um, you know, I went to Christian church a bit as a kid, so I'm sure I'm sure my imagery is still sort of based in that because I probably can't separate the sort of idea of a Christian going somewhere. But like, I'm not Christian. I'm not, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm of any specific religion. But I absolutely believe as a God. And and I just feel like we all do. And we will find like this mental gymnastics to try and not be ashamed of that. But without that, like, what, you know, like my, my, my prayer now, these days. I think when I was a bit younger, I would sort of be like, please get me this lead role in a film or please, I'm fucking cringing that. And then that, and now, and now it's sort of like, please allow me to pay attention and be present and use me where I'm useful.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Like, and what, and if if that means I don't get the thing I think I want, okay.

• 53:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and look where that's taken you, like, fuck.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And actually, it kind of ties in with OCD thing, actually, because that was one of the big ones I had when I was, as I explained, like, as a kid. It's a very famous one of like, you know, praying so someone doesn't die or whatever. And my mom was really ill like a couple of years back. She's absolutely fine now, but like, it was really touch and go, really scary touch and go. And like, I wanted to pray. I felt that feeling of like, if I don't pray, she might die and I'm in control. And like, my final sort of, like, this is the sort of final slaying of my OCD, I think. I was like, I'm gonna intentionally pray for the opposite in my head. As in, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna intentionally be like, oh, I hope she fucking dies, fuck it, to like, break the fucking curse of, and I was so afraid. And it was like, my, my therapist was so proud, like, my, like, CBT in full force.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Because, and this is, and because some people hear that and they'll be like, oh my god, and there's this experiment one time where they had a bunch of doctors and really intelligent, learned people. And they had to, this is to express the power of sort of magical thinking OCD. And they had them write down the worst thing they could think of on a piece of paper. And then they were asked to write the name of someone they love in the sentence as if it's happened to them. And people ripped it up immediately, but they wouldn't even write it down. But when they're, when they're asked to write the name of someone, like, the superstition came up. These are people who don't really believe in superstition. Ripped up the fucking thing. It's that powerful, that feeling of like, just in case, I don't, you know.

• 54:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  And my sort of belief and what I think I've learned applying CBT with my sort of faith in a way is that like, whatever it is, God knows. You don't have to like, you don't have to fucking use this sort of rudimentary human language to be like, just so you all was clear, when I said that.

• 54:43Fearne Cotton?

  Like he needs a little email sent with instructions.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Disclaimer, being like, explaining the unknowable, PS, like, it's in a way, it brings me sort of comfort to think like, that, you know, we're all sort of being like, praying and God's like, I fucking gave you that in the first place, I know. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's a, whatever that force is. And, you know, I guess the imagery I used there was very sort of traditional. But it's, yeah, I, I, I just think like, the way you live and the way you're oriented and the way you, your, your intention always speaks louder than your sort of fear or.

• 55:15Fearne Cotton?

  Well, it is coming from either like love or fear, isn't it?

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, there you go.

• 55:18Fearne Cotton?

  Sometimes all of those prayers, or even I think, I've got a big problem with like, modern day manifesting.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right.

• 55:25Fearne Cotton?

  How we talk about that and that you have to write a manifestation list or, you know, all very harmless stuff. You wanna do a vision board, great. I, I've always had such a block with it because I think, what do I know? I don't know what I need. I thought I did. I used to think, oh, if I, like you've just said, I'm the biggest TV presenter out there, then I'm gonna feel valued and people will like me and I'll feel good about myself and then I'll be happy. Um, I did all that. It got me fucking nowhere. I was very lucky, did some brilliant things, had some amazing experiences. Did I feel any more self-worth because of it? Absolutely not, had less.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:03Fearne Cotton?

  So what do I know? What do I know what I need? And then some of the worst shit I've been through and stuff that I don't talk about in a public domain. Because I'm going through therapy and just not there yet with any of it.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:15Fearne Cotton?

  Is the stuff that has allowed me to do this. There's no way I'd be doing any of this if I hadn't been through certain things.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 56:22Fearne Cotton?

  And also has, yeah, like, allowed me to connect with people more thoroughly and given me resilience and opened my, like, expanded my brain and it, I, it's not like, oh, I'm so glad I went through certain things, but that's what I needed, clearly, to like, learn the stuff that I've gone through. And and it is, it can still be, it can be painful and shit and awful and you don't wanna look back at stuff, yet also exactly what you needed to go through to be who you are. So who am I to sit there with a manifestation list? Like, this is what I'd like, please.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 56:59Fearne Cotton?

  Because I don't know what I need.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fascinating. I've got a friend who would say, in this context, it says about me, but I'm sure it's in the same context of you, like, you've been used to sort of infiltrate those places where, you know, people need the return to like this conversation, you mean? And and and you've been around, I guess, like, the top sharpest end of the industry for however many years. And it's great, like, maybe all that was to give you access for this part.

• 57:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, hundred percent.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  So that, so that you have these conversations and these conversations and reach the people who are like those people. And it's the crazy sort of, you know, adjustment bureau plan of the world.

• 57:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, I, um.

• 57:38Fearne Cotton?

  And also I think with manifesting, like, you don't leave any room for there to be flexibility to to go off on the tangent and

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:46Fearne Cotton?

  experience something over here that you didn't know you needed.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, yeah, like, the prayer things, the manifesting idea of asking for things is interesting because it kind of makes me think about what you said earlier about like the anger underneath, that you don't have anxiety of anger. It's sort of like, what's underneath the prayer? I mean, if you think about it, if like, when I was asking to be, oh, I want this lead role, and you're asking to be. It's like, it's fear and it's also like, me, what I'm, what I'm actually asking for is like, can I be loved and appreciated? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like.

• 58:13Fearne Cotton?

  That's what you're asking for.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  That's what, but the actual prayer is, I'm sort of getting confused and lost in the glitzy sort of like, oh, I'll get loads of fucking nice words said at me from strangers if I'm in this film or something, I don't know, whatever. Rather than like, you just wanna be really loved and you wanna be really seen and you wanna be seen and that's not being seen. That's not, this, this. I mean, I, yeah, I'm fascinated by what you're experiencing because you've had, you, you've like, you've been so seen for so long in terms of like a public way. Like, I don't know how you've sort of managed to maintain your, you're so human and real.

• 58:46Fearne Cotton?

  Right, right, right, right, right, right. I mean, I've definitely been like very human, but I think, my god, I have not coped with a lot of it.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:53Fearne Cotton?

  Absolutely haven't. And it's why I'm very careful, like, what I, in a very, I'm not being arrogant by saying this, but I'm picky about what I do in terms of in this industry because it's gross.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right, right.

• 59:07Fearne Cotton?

  It's gross. There's nowhere around that one. It's horrible. And there's some great people, I've met loads of them, and I've just done a TV show for the first time in like 10 years and everyone was so exceptionally magical, like, the best people, and it's restored my faith. But a lot of it is awful. And the result is, you end up, what, everyone's like, yeah, you're amazing. And you turn into an absolute, see you next Tuesday.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:32Fearne Cotton?

  None of that's good.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  None of that's, it's, it's not, it's, yeah, fuck, it's, I'm like, sort of just starting to get into a space where like, things are happening in a way that's, the opportunities are sort of starting to, you know, present themselves. And I'm terrified of that. And I think it's, I'm kind of glad that this, like, I'm like 30 now, and I started acting when I was like 19, and I just like work and act and stuff. And it's only the last few years, like, poetry's started going well and things started popping off. And I'm actually so grateful, my wife has a, she's a musician as well, like, that I'm so grateful that like, I didn't, nothing went to plan when I was like 20. I'd be dead.

• 1:00:06Fearne Cotton?

  Can you imagine?

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  I would be dead 100%. Like, with my way of seeing the world, if any of the things that happened now happened when I was like 20, pre-therapy, you know, all those things, I would be dead.

• 1:00:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  For sure. Like.

• 1:00:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's too much.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Way too much, way too much.

• 1:00:20Fearne Cotton?

  And now you can go, oh, I don't believe in any of that bit of it. It's nonsense. And then this feels good over here. This is great and.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  I also guess that autonomy, have an autonomy over your thing. I guess, you know, you've built your thing that you have and that you own in the way that you get to, you know, like a, you say what goes, in a way that's pretty really healthy for you, you mean?

• 1:00:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  I'm so inspired to that because like, that's all I've.

• 1:00:42Fearne Cotton?

  And that's, by the way, nothing to do with, um, power, position, whatever. It's, it's everything to do with feeling.

• 1:00:53Fearne Cotton?

  Having enough self-worth to know that I don't have to do shitty things because other people think they look good. So it's nothing to do with like, I've got autonomy now, look what I can do. It's everything to do with, I believe I deserve to do things that feel good, not really shit. Just because other people go, oh, that's success over there.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Fearne Cotton?

  That's success. So yes, I will grin and bear it and I hate it, but other people will think

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Fearne Cotton?

  it's successful. I'd rather sit in my little studio and have nice chats. Thanks very much.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Best thing in the world. And also, this is the, this is the thing that fucking matters.

• 1:01:25Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Fucking hard.

• 1:01:26Fearne Cotton?

  The best.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  Beautiful pink curtain, mind you. You're joking.

• 1:01:28Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. Look at the pink curtain. It is the best. And I'm so chuffed for you that you've gone off on this beautiful tangent of doing something that as an outsider seems like a gift. Like not only, it's not just the words that you choose to put together, but the way you deliver it. And I watched it live, you know, I love watching your videos on Instagram, but watching you at the festival even, it's, it's all like you're very present when you're reading it and you're in it.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:01:54Fearne Cotton?

  And you've got just such a skill at translating those words, not just writing them. And, and you know, I can't wait to see where that goes for you. This is exciting. This is so exciting.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  So kind. Thank you.

• 1:02:05Fearne Cotton?

  Very, very cool.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  So much.

• 1:02:06Fearne Cotton?

  And I want to end by saying, well, we've got a couple of other questions detached from our convo that I'll get to, but before that, thank you for doing what you do because I've had a really weird year. There's been bits that have been quite bumpy and there have been times when I've listened to the right poem of yours at the right time and it's just been just exactly what I needed. So thank you. Thank you for what you do.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Thank you. You're joking. Thank you for everything you do and everything you've ever done. And, you know, I've been watching fucking Fern and Reggie in America and being like, this is the best shit in the world. I should run homeschool. I never got to see the final episode of that either because I think they went out of sequence. And to this day, I still long for that. So.

• 1:02:45Fearne Cotton?

  We need to get it. We keep talking about doing a series two over 20 years later.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Imagine. It'd actually be really, it'd also be like quite profound.

• 1:02:53Fearne Cotton?

  Only in America now.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Are you joking?

• 1:02:55Fearne Cotton?

  I know. We've got to do it.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  Oh my God, like.

• 1:02:57Fearne Cotton?

  We're, we're thinking about it. It's only taken us 20, over 20 years.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  If there's a petition I can get in on, like.

• 1:03:03Fearne Cotton?

  We're gonna do it. We'll make it happen. We'll make it happen. I love that man. I love it.

• 1:03:08Fearne Cotton?

  So to close things off, the first thing is we're making a Happy Place playlist with songs that make you feel great. What would you put on it?

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Ooh. My idea of feeling great might be a little bit more like somber and melancholic.

• 1:03:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, same. I want to cry.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Okay, great, great, great. A song called Untitled Number Four by Sigur Russ.

• 1:03:26Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Sigur Russ. Dreamy.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  That's like a seven minute song. And just play it on loop for the whole day.

• 1:03:32Fearne Cotton?

  That is, we're putting it on there.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  It's the best song in the world.

• 1:03:34Fearne Cotton?

  We'll just be a wreck listening to it. Love. And where is your happy place?

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Ooh. I'll be with my wife. Just at home with my wife. Simple and straightforward all day.

• 1:03:45Fearne Cotton?

  Love that. It's a beautiful answer. Well, look, thank you so much for being not only here today on the podcast, but at the festival the weekend. It was a total dream to have you there. So thank you, Lucas Jones.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me. It was such an honour and pleasure. Thank you. Big love.

• 1:03:59Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, so frustrating that we only really chat for this podcast on like an hour average because I could have done like a kind of Joe Rogan length four hour pod with Lucas. I don't know if you guys would have wanted that, but I would have because I could just chat to him for weeks. So much to say, so much to discuss. And I love that he's a big, big, deep thinker. As I said, Lucas is going to be at our Tatten Festival in September. So do head to happyplaceofficial.co.uk to get your Happy Place Festival tickets if you haven't already. Massive thanks again to Lucas. You're a legend, as are you lot. I love you.

• 1:04:57Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

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