Ashley Roberts: If you don’t scream your body will! Anxiety, insomnia, and Pussycat Dolls' comeback

For Ashley Roberts, dance was her self-expression and meditation. Then, at the height of her Pussycat Dolls fame the art she loved became tangled up in extreme burnout and body shaming. In this chat with Fearne, Ashley explains how discovering breathwork brought her back to herself after a period of intense anxiety and physical ill-health. Now, the Pussycat Dolls are making a comeback in their 40s, and this time round they’re doing it with a bigger focus on having more fun and giving fewer f*cks. There’s a lot of mental illness in her family, so Ashley talks about the mental health toolkit she’s creating for herself, as well as the grief of losing her dad to suicide. Plus, she and Fearne both suffer from insomnia, so share what works – and what really doesn’t – for each of them. The Pussycat Dolls will be touring Europe in summer 2026. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Leigh-Anne Pinnock https://pod.fo/e/205bb3 LeAnne Rimes https://pod.fo/e/20397f Paloma Faith https://pod.fo/e/245bab Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps create your personalised mental health toolkit. Today I'm chatting to Ashley Roberts.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  I've got a heavy lineage of extreme mental illness and people struggling. So it was super important for me also to make sure within myself that I felt like I could have some tools that make me feel stable. I do feel like we have habitual patterns on the way that we think and cycles that we go through within our mind. And when I do some of these breathwork practices, I have a way of thinking that is more joyous, more possibility. And the more I am in that state, then like my reality is starting to shift. My foundation for stress is becoming stronger.

• 0:47Fearne Cotton?

  What are you up to lovely people? How are you? Now, I am late to the party with a lot of things. Sometimes when something's like very zeitgeisty, I think, I can't be arsed. So it has taken me months to finally get around to watching Wuthering Heights. Now, this has no connection to this podcast episode whatsoever, but I need to give this airtime because if you haven't seen Wuthering Heights, like I hadn't, what are you doing? I cannot tell you how much this film impacted me. I loved every millisecond of it. First of all, it is just beautiful to watch. The costumes, the sets, the way that Emerald Fennell, who directed it, has created these

• 1:29Fearne Cotton?

  beautiful, magical, fantastical scenes with these rooms that are like sparkly starlined or the colour palette matches the person's outfit. I just found it aesthetically so beautiful. But now I must move on to Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi, who are the most fantastic pairing of all time in a film. First of all, his northern accent is absolutely spot on. If you're northern listening to this and I'm wrong, you can have a go at me. But I thought it was flawless and Margot is of course just exceptional and beautiful and I'm in love with her. But... I thought, like, a few friends had said to me, "You're gonna love it. It's like all sexy and gorgeous."

• 2:08Fearne Cotton?

  It was a bit sexy, but more so, it was about pure romance and love, like their love story. And I have never cried so much watching a film, maybe Past Lives, that made me cry quite a lot too. But I was crying so hysterically, and I think I cried for about 10 minutes afterwards, like, like, heaving sobs. And it reminded me that every now and again, we just need to have a good cry. I love having a good cry. I either listen to, like, John Hopkins music for psychedelic therapy, that makes me weep my head off, or I need a sad movie. So if you need a good cry, watch Wuthering Heights or Past Lives. I haven't got time to tell you the synopsis of that, just go watch it, it's bloody brilliant.

• 2:52Fearne Cotton?

  Um, anyway, I digress hugely because I'm not talking about Wuthering Heights whatsoever, or crying, really, but let's talk about Ashley because I just adore this woman. It was so lovely to get proper time to chat to her. We've known each other on off over the years for like quite a long time. Obviously, when she was in the Pussycat Dolls, we'd cross over for certain work things because I was working in radio and in TV and she would come on the show. But now, of course, she's a radio presenter on Heart and definitely has a much more calm and considered way of life, just about. She wrote a book called Breathwork because the practice has had such a huge impact on her mental health,

• 3:35Fearne Cotton?

  particularly after the absolute insanity and at times toxicity of being in a girl group in the noughties. Now, the Pussycat Dolls are coming back. They are touring again and I cannot wait to go see them. But this time round, they're in their 40s and they have a different approach to the whole thing, which we actually talk about a hell of a lot. We talk about feeling comfy in our own skin, which is an absolute treat. The pressures of feeling that you cannot stop and you can't slow down. We also talk about sleep a lot. I'm a shit sleeper, Ashley's a shit sleeper. So I think we had like a real meeting- Of minds during that part of the chat just going, oh my God, you get it.

• 4:18Fearne Cotton?

  Because there's nothing more fucking annoying than when you tell someone that you're having trouble sleeping, that them them saying, have you tried lavender spray? I could literally scream when someone says that to me. I've tried everything. Of course, I've tried lavender spray. Anyway, if you are a shit sleeper, you want to be hearing this chat.

• 4:39Speaker 02

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• 5:21Speaker 02

  Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 5:36Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  And Maisy Adam.

• 5:39Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey, Maisy, what is it?

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 5:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 5:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 5:58Fearne Cotton?

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 6:10Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. This is the show.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  Ashley, I'm so thrilled to have you on the podcast.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  I am so thrilled to be here. I feel like we've been chatting about this.

• 6:41Fearne Cotton?

  We have.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Putting it out in the ethers.

• 6:44Fearne Cotton?

  We have.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  I wore my butter cream yellow for your happy place.

• 6:47Fearne Cotton?

  This outfit is some, I wish I had not worn jeans and a jumper. That's kind of dirty.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  I'm sweating my tush and tits off under here, so don't you worry.

• 6:55Fearne Cotton?

  We just had a great pre podcast moment of discovering we are nearly exactly the same age.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're in our forty and fabulous era. Virgo sisters.

• 7:06Fearne Cotton?

  Virgo sisters.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, September babies. How do we not know that?

• 7:10Fearne Cotton?

  I am like days older than you. That's so weird. Beyonce is one day younger than me.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Okay, I see. I thought she was closer to mine, so I am.

• 7:18Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I don't know my facts. Well, who else do we have around?

• 7:22Fearne Cotton?

  Gaz Southgate's same day as me.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Fabulous.

• 7:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we love a Virgo.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  We love a Virgo.

• 7:27Fearne Cotton?

  Because we, we operate in exactly the same cliche way. And I wish it wasn't true. Like, I've got one of my friends Giles, he's a Virgo.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:34Fearne Cotton?

  We're the same person. We want the order. We want things neat and tidy.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Over analytical, like brain goes into like.

• 7:41Fearne Cotton?

  Constant, self critical. All the, it's just, we're the same.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  I know.

• 7:45Fearne Cotton?

  So we get each other.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  It's Christmas, it was like Christmas time, right? People were just getting it on. And here we are.

• 7:51Fearne Cotton?

  Here we are. Exactly. Parents were having a Christmas fling and then September pops a baby.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Hey, I know, we're having a good time most of the time.

• 8:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, I want to talk about so many things today. First of all, I was texting you during the South African jungle. Get me out of here. Me and my daughter loved watching that together. It was so fun. And I was giving my daughter, who's 10, a whole kind of revision on the Pussycat Dolls and what you were about. And she's now your like number one fan.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  I love her. She's 10?

• 8:21Fearne Cotton?

  Generation, 10.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Obsessed.

• 8:23Fearne Cotton?

  Obsessed.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  I mean, the TikTok world actually does know some of our songs. I don't think they know who we are, but they do dance along to some of them. Yeah. I feel like we're cool still, because I'm like, every now and then I'm like, oh, it's popping up on Tik. TikTok, here we go. We still got it, ladies.

• 8:36Fearne Cotton?

  You still got it, all right. The jungle always to me looks like it must be the most amazing experience slash utterly grueling and brutal.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  It's insanity.

• 8:45Fearne Cotton?

  I can't even imagine.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Absolute insanity. But you know, that show changed my life. That's the reason I live here. That's the reason I'm adopted braver is because that show, fourteen years ago, I can't believe it's been fourteen years. Oh my God. And I went on that show with just no expectation, came out the other side with just a whole new world. And it was so exciting to come over to the UK and outside of the dolls and just be me. And I know I'm really proud of that, you know.

• 9:13Fearne Cotton?

  We feel like you're very much ours.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm yours and I like, it means, it makes me emotional when I talk about it. Cause you just, I don't know, it's so rare that you're accepted by another country, the way that this has happened. I feel even weird saying that. But it's, it's, yeah, it's, the life that I've had here has been so amazing and beautiful and supportive. I've got great friends. I've been able to do so many fun things and I think I needed it. I needed to kind of get out of the bubble I was in over in the States. And so it was a beautiful blessing.

• 9:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Do you know what? Reading your book Breathwork, I learned so much about you because I've seen you on and off over the years when you've been on like Celebrity Juice or we've been at events together or whatever. But I didn't know half of your backstory and some of the stuff that you've been through. And also just the wildness of your career up until this point. It's crazy what you've been through.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, I guess in a lot of different ways, right? The human experience can be challenging. But I've also gotten to do a lot of amazing things and wear a lot of different hats. So, you know, my friend asked me the other day, she was like, if someone was to say, okay, this is the package, right? You're going to get to do this and this and this, but it comes with this, this and this. Would you still say yes? And I'm like, yeah, I still say yes. So, you know, sometimes the bad comes with the good.

• 10:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  And sometimes the bad also helps you transform into a person that's been able to use what you've been through to give a positive light or knowledge to. So.

• 10:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's a really good question your friend asked you because. I think about that often. You know, I love, I love what I'm doing now. There's bits of my career I haven't loved.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:56Fearne Cotton?

  But they've, I've learned lots and there's been lots of excitement, but the bad bits are shit and there's no getting away from that. But it is a harsh industry and you're on the receiving end of outside commentary, whether you like it or not, unless you are really thick skinned. It is shit and I still would, I still would do it. Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it now. I would have, I would have quit a long time ago, but it, two things I think can be coexisting, that you love it, but at times it's brutal.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, thousand percent.

• 11:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, you're.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Truth can be true.

• 11:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, you're, you're revisiting a big bit of your career by going back to the pussy. I am so here for this reinvented era.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  I mean, well, even like you said, like when you sent me a picture of you with the girls and I was like, how do they even know my songs? Because like, you know, you and me, we would, we would have been at the same age, doing the same kind of things, listening to the same kind of music. And it's just wild to think we're going to be able to have that nostalgic moment with everybody, but also reintroduce it to like younger generations.

• 11:58Fearne Cotton?

  They are gonna love it. We're all gonna love it. You're going out gigging all around Europe. So excited.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  We are in rehearsals at the moment. OMG, my back, my legs, my thighs, my neck. Like everything is just like, woo. You know, everyone's like, no, you're in shape. You got this. I'm like, no, this is a whole nother beast. It's like running a marathon in heels.

• 12:18Fearne Cotton?

  I can't imagine. I watched the videos on Instagram and I'm desperately trying to do the dance routine alongside you, like unsuccessfully. But it is, they are amazing routine, amazing choreography.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Did a lot of like titties in.

• 12:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Out in the world and the lower back's like, ooh, we feeling it now. But you know what? Also it's, I don't know. We're like, screw it. Like you never know when we're going to be able to do this again. So.

• 12:42Fearne Cotton?

  You gotta do it.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  We gotta just do it. We gotta say yes and just go for it.

• 12:44Fearne Cotton?

  I also love the video of you retrying on some of the outfits from back in the day. The hot pants that are like tiny little knickknacks.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  The hell did I say yes to that? This not like, you know, you look at like Addison Rae, right? Who just rocks it now and she didn't like, cause the naughty sort of fashion is coming back.

• 13:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, Y2K.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Y2K is happening, but I didn't even like it back then. And I'm like, why did I just say yes to that? I could have just been like, put a little extra fabric at the top. I'm not wearing that style anymore, that's for sure. I didn't look cute then, I don't look cute now and now. I was like, things were popping out of like all different spaces.

• 13:19Fearne Cotton?

  It was so great.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  But it was fun to reminisce. My mom was there, she has the box of like, you know, all the.

• 13:25Fearne Cotton?

  She's kept it all.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  She's kept it all, so we brought it out, we dusted it off.

• 13:28Fearne Cotton?

  That's so fun.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Fashion show.

• 13:31Fearne Cotton?

  You say in this book that you quite literally came out of the womb dancing.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:36Fearne Cotton?

  Which is just a beautiful thing to feel you've got that like in your bones. Like, you know, that's just like that natural thing that you do, that your body needs to do. It's how you express yourself.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yet you say, when talking about this in the book, then one day you couldn't dance because dance became wrapped up in toxic experiences and behaviors as well as traumas.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:57Fearne Cotton?

  And that must have been heartbreaking.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was absolutely heartbreaking. I couldn't even actually watch dancing, cause I would just, I would just be bursting into tears. I came out of the womb dancing, cause my dad also was a drummer percussionist. And so I grew up around music being played all the time. And it was just all of a sudden I started wiggling their legs, put her in some dance classes. And I, I left it like, oh, it was my best friend, it was my meditation, it was my escape. It was my expression, like you said. And, you know, for my whole life, all I really wanted to do was get out there and perform. And so when it became my job, I was like, well, this is epic. But then it went, kind of got wrapped up in this bubble of a major pop group that was, you know, a global success.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  It's sort of, yeah, I got a bit like on the other side and I was like, well, who am I actually outside of this, right? Felt just very lost, very disconnected to the the one thing that actually made me feel like my, it was like the essence of life to me. I didn't, I just didn't really recognize myself and it was a really, really tough time because I always leaned on that just to make me feel better. And it seemed like that wasn't, that wasn't present anymore. So I went on a journey.

• 15:15Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I guess there's always a moment where if your passion turns into your job, it slightly loses that magic because you don't get to dictate necessarily how and when and for how long you do that thing. It's just like you will do this every day, whether you like it or not. So you're, you're gonna lose that magic. But this seems like more, like it was.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, also I had, you know, I had trained my whole life. So doing Pussycat Doll routines is fun and it is a beautiful form of dance, but all the sort of technical stuff that I'd worked on for so long, it had gone away. And I sort of walked in and I was like, okay, well, all I want to do is go in a dance studio. I don't know why I feel weird saying this because I, but like I, I felt, I felt my ego was kicking in and I'd be judged because I'm walking into a dance space with other dancers that might maybe know that I was a part of this group. And like, oh, she doesn't look as good as she used to, you know what I mean? Or something. And it was just, it made me sad. I felt just very, yeah, disconnected to my, my, my soul, really. Cause that's my soul and dance,

• 16:13Speaker 01

  you know, was just, they were intertwined. Um, so yeah, it was a tough time, but now I'm able to sort of, I can hear my friend Lucas, Lucas McFarlane, he's a choreographer. He's brilliant. He's done loads of films that you would know and choreographed my, um, Strictly piece that I dedicated to my dad. And he's, he's, he's always like, you're so hard on yourself. I'm like, yeah, but you know, when you just can hit something a certain way and then all of a sudden it's not there. But I'm what, you know, being in these rehearsals at the moment is quite nice because even though it's tough, we're having to push through it.

• 16:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  And then when you do that, you actually get on the other side of it. I'm like, oh, that actually feels a bit easier. Oh, my back's limbering up a bit. My thighs, my quads are able to support me when I'm in a squat.

• 17:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  For a few minutes during this routine.

• 17:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's the humbling notion of getting older. I mean, we're in our 40s, we're in our, we're in our prime, but like I used to run constantly and love it.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Fearne Cotton?

  I cannot run for more than two K now without my knee. Literally feels like it's falling apart. So I, I don't, and it's kind of humbling. Or like I would go out jogging and then this sort of 20 year old would sprint past me and I'm like, I used to be that. That's what I used to be like.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  It's so frustrating, right?

• 17:27Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I'm like trying to be okay with it. Yeah, it frustrates the hell out of me, but.

• 17:31Fearne Cotton?

  I know. Well, you're still, I mean, you're looking amazing in these videos. It's, it's insane. But how is it stepping back into that space? If you, I don't know how you felt, you know, leaving the band initially and having that hiatus, but it sounds like it wasn't all fun and games. And also I know from being in and around the music industry in that era, it was not a nice place to be always, especially for women. I think it was a really brutal industry to be in as a, as a woman in that era. Is that, is that your experience?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the naughties were wild, right? Sometimes stuff comes up on my algorithm of people asking women on red carpets, you know, what their weight is, you know, we had paparazzi at that time that used to like throw stuff under our skirts to get shots because the whole Britney thing had happened where they, and then that was sort of like a trendy thing was to get women, I mean, Perez Hilton used to draw dicks on our face, you know, and like circle where cellulite was and like, it was just a wild time. Like you look back, you're like, how, how was that? Okay, it wasn't okay. But yeah, it was definitely tough because really all you want to do is go out

• 18:40Speaker 01

  there and just entertain and, and do what you love and, and, and you know, wear some fun, wild outfits.

• 18:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  And have a good time. But there was a lot of extra stuff coming out, you know, the music industry was a, well, the industry in general, the entertainment industry was just.

• 18:56Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, at what point do you think, oh God, my, my dream job is not the dream. I'm not enjoying this.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, being on stage always outweighed everything for me because. It's just like, everything just disappeared for, for, you know, that hour and a half that we're out there. Like, you could be going through something at home, you could twisted your ankle, I don't know. And it's like, something sort of like, it just disappears and you become really present with the audience. And so that, for me, always outweighed it. I guess until a point where, where it didn't, in a sense. We did get quite burnt out, like, you know, so many years on the road. And at that time, we were, we were working for a well-oiled machine. And, you know, it wasn't necessarily what our best interests, our best interests weren't, at the

• 19:46Speaker 01

  forefront of their minds. It was more like, how much money can we make?

• 19:49Fearne Cotton?

  Well, they're never, are they? Because it's like, yeah, exactly. Oh, like, they can do two shows a night. They can do another bit of press. You know, if there's more to be had, you'll be put out there. That's how the music industry works. And I don't think people really understand, you know, I would, again, see it from the outside, being in a radio studio, whatever. How many things bands would do a day? Or they'd be in two countries in one day?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yes, that was, yeah, we were-

• 20:10Fearne Cotton?

  And not know where you were?

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was it. We were in three different countries at one day at one point. I remember, I actually said in front of an entire stadium, the wrong city. And they were like rivals, like a booed by like, 20,000 people. And I was like, what's happening? Because you just, again, like you said, you don't know where you're at. Yeah, it got to the point where just, you know, our bodies started shutting down.

• 20:33Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you were hospitalized for burnout.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  I was, yeah. They, I was, I was sick several times, actually. But, you know, again, I grew up in a dancing, sort of sport-like mentality, where it was like, go, go, go. The show goes on no matter what. You know, I show up, I get the job done. I mean, now that I've grown up a bit, I'm able to sort of balance that out a bit more and look at that from a different perspective. But at the time, I was like, oh, I'm just, this is, you know, I'm just supposed to do this. Like, get it done, get it done, no matter what. And then my body just at a point was like, yeah, we were done, finitos. And they thought I was having- A brain aneurysm, which is just insane, but.

• 21:07Fearne Cotton?

  And what, because the symptoms were what for you at the time?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was actually in London and I got, I was really sick and I was vomiting and my head was like just ringing with pain. And I kept thinking, well, it's gonna go away, it's gonna go away. And actually, a little team I but like every time I puked my, I actually like, my brain would start to like calm down a bit. So I kept thinking, oh, I'll be okay. I'll be able to get on the flight because we had a show the next day. And um, I ended up, you know, being taken to the hospital. And I remember them asking me like, okay, well, you need to stay here overnight. I was like, well, no, give me whatever you need to give me. I need to get on the plane to go. To get to the show. And they're like, you need to just chill out. Anyways, I went to go have a brain scan because I thought maybe I was having a brain aneurysm.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  And then I got viral arthritis, which didn't even know was a thing, on the way walking to get the MRI. So my, my couldn't um, bend my knee. So I didn't have a choice. Like literally my body was like.

• 22:05Fearne Cotton?

  Your body was screaming?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we're done. And that's so interesting you say that because I, when I got out of the dolls, I had like eczema and shingles and. And this acupuncturist was like, if you don't scream, your body will scream for you. Like it has to find a way to get it out.

• 22:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  And yeah, so, but I think that's interesting to look at and reflect on because I think I would have just kept. Going. We all would have though. That was the thing. We all just were like.

• 22:32Fearne Cotton?

  And also there was a slight paranoia, I think for everybody, bands or the position I had where you think, well, if I don't do it.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:40Fearne Cotton?

  I'm, I'm out. Someone else will do this job. And it all felt too fragile to say, can I stop for a minute? And just like feel well, because like, like clearly your body was freaking out at the time, but you still feel like, no, I've got to get on that flight and do that show.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and there was definitely a feeling of, you know, you're replaceable. So that also like hung over our heads in a sense. So you don't want to lose your job.

• 23:02Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Um, you, you also want to do well and show up and, and be good. So yeah, there was a mixture of things going on. It was an interesting time back then as well.

• 23:11Fearne Cotton?

  So how are you for yourself? I'm not talking about the whole band, but how are you gonna do that differently? So it works for you this time?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Oh gosh, we are, you know, we're grown. Like it's, it's so amazing to sit down with these women. And I know them. I've known them for so long, right? But like, I'm listening to them and I'm like, oh my God, like, Kim's had three kids since we started this, you know, like, I've gone through so many different journeys in my life. I've lost a lot of loved ones. I've gone and done, you know, different shows or whatever that have helped me grow. And Nick's just been, you know, I think her Broadway show really like shifted her. I mean, doing that relentless schedule and that character. And we've just come together and we're like, we just, I don't know, it just feels different. There's more communication.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  It's, it's nice. I mean, we have to give every single lady, though, that came, that's built this legacy because, I mean, Robin Anton started Pussycat Dolls with Christina Applegate in her garage. Like decades ago. And, you know, every single woman that's been a part of this has built the legacy. So, feel really grateful to be a part of it and really grateful for the opportunity to, to get together with these, these chicas and try and really just enjoy it. Yeah, this is it. It's like we just, we've all sat down and we've hashed out some stuff, you know, rupture and repair is the thing. And we've sat down now and it's been like, should we just go out there and like, kick some ass, have a good time and just whip our hair around and hopefully inspire

• 24:51Speaker 01

  women and all humans out there to just, I don't know, just to celebrate a bit more and, and, and hopefully bring a bit of joy to this crazy ass world that we'd be living in.

• 25:02Fearne Cotton?

  I think this is something to do with being in your 40s. It feels like there's some lovely alchemy that allows you to do the stuff that you've always loved doing. But with just an extra layer of, I mean, maybe it's something to do with self compassion, like we like ourselves more.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think there's less fox given. I will say that in certain ways. I mean, you know, still like have the inner saboteur that we gotta work on from time to time.

• 25:26Fearne Cotton?

  God, I hate that guy.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  The little one that comes out with the whip. And I'm like, okay, slow down.

• 25:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's it. There's, it's like, I feel more connected. To my body now than I did in my twenties. So to be able to put these outfits on now, I'm like, okay.

• 25:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 25:41Fearne Cotton?

  Feeling myself.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:43Fearne Cotton?

  That for me is the best thing about being in your forties. I mean, I had like all sorts of body issues back in the day. So I was disconnected fully from my body, like hated my body. Oh, my God, I think like many of us did, you know what I mean? And I still could have days of it now.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:00Fearne Cotton?

  But most of the time, I don't even think about it. I just feel so grateful that I'm healthy and that I can

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 26:05Fearne Cotton?

  Move about and do the stuff I want to do. It's like the gratitude overrides all of it. Whereas back in the day, I think because of stuff like Perez doing, you know, I made a documentary about Perez.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 26:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because I was sort of fascinated in that culture of like, how is this happening? And how, how is this okay? And I found it all deeply fascinating. But I think, you know, like Heat magazine would put circles around us, like the circle of shame or whatever. And I think we all started to believe, and I'm not just talking about people that were with the circle of shame, but the readers going, is there something wrong with me? Like, am I faulty somehow? And that was just became.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  The psychology around it.

• 26:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, ingrained in us.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, if they're pointing out this and this and this about this person, like, should I be pointing that out about me? Like, yeah, it's not setting the best.

• 26:49Fearne Cotton?

  Not great.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Intentions out there, is it?

• 26:53Fearne Cotton?

  No, I'm so glad that you're just all up for going and having a great time. And also for you to reclaim dance, because I think, like you say in the book, that you think this sounds dramatic, I don't think it does at all, but a piece of your soul died. I totally get that. I mean, in my own little way, I loved painting for years and years and years. And I sort of stopped when I had a big period of depression.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:16Fearne Cotton?

  And I didn't paint, like, I don't think I painted anything for about 10 years. And then I got nervous that I couldn't do it. And then I just started two years ago and I am alive when I'm painting. Like, it makes me feel so sparky and well and like nourished. And I think losing a big part of yourself like that, dance, art, whatever it is for anyone listening, it is a bit of your soul dying.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love your paintings.

• 27:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, thank you so much.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  You're so good. Whenever you post some. Thing. I'm like, go on, girl.

• 27:47Fearne Cotton?

  I feel very childlike and sort of sprightly and there's something and I think dance has that. You know, it's such a an important thing if you're a dancer to have that. The ability, the execution of the movements, like move freely and feel that euphoria.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that zone. It's like a sense of of you're so connected to like. I don't know, yourself, this this music, these beats, the energy like and how a sound can hit and how like. The way you move your body can tell a story to someone that's listening or watching or however you, you know, want to. To absorb the art form, but like, it's just, I think it's magic.

• 28:33Fearne Cotton?

  It is.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even though, you know, the body's a bit sore at the moment, it's nice to be back in the studio and like. You know, Kim and I really come from proper like dance backgrounds and. It's gonna make me emotional, like being, we were dancing the other day, just her and I. And I was like, this is insane. Look at us go. Come on, girl. Look at us go. And I've known her for, you know, twenty something years. And then her kids walk in and they want to see us dancing and I'm like, oh my God, and they're dancing now and, you know, I don't have. Kids myself, but I feel like I really get to see that connection and to have that that love through her and her family and. It's beautiful.

• 29:13Fearne Cotton?

  But look how important dance is to you, that it makes you.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:16Fearne Cotton?

  Cry like that is, this shit is important.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and my dad, you know, my dad passed away. My dad loved me dancing and I told the girls I had, we've been so busy. But we did this private gig recently and I got off stage and I was like. My dad, my dad would love that. Like, my dad would love that we're back together. So I also feel like it's. In a sense, I get to honor him a little bit, honor our souls, you know, we get to reignite the um. The art form that we love so much and get back on stage and connect with the fans like, that's gonna be so cool. Like, we hope Pride, we're doing West Hollywood Pride is one of our first like proper live gigs and.

• 29:58Fearne Cotton?

  That's gonna be incredible. I mean, when you think back to that period where. You're not dancing. I'm imagining you felt pretty low at that point. Could you ever have imagined that you'd be back doing it again?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  You know, people would ask me and they thought I was lying. I was like, I don't know. I don't really know if I see it. I sort of thought the possibility of it could be cool, but it's sort of like divine timing, I guess, especially when we got together a few years ago. But then COVID stepped in and the whole thing went to shit. So we were like, okay, maybe that wasn't supposed to happen. You know, then you go on with your lives and you're doing your own thing. And it just kind of, it just started happening. We started having a little conversation. I was like, is this real?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  And it's nice. It feels, it feels healing also within the space of the dolls, you know, being able to, us three come together and do what we're doing at the moment. So yeah.

• 30:58Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so glad.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  You've got to come to the show.

• 31:00Fearne Cotton?

  I'm coming. Are you kidding me?

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Oh, too.

• 31:03Fearne Cotton?

  I'm gonna be, my hips are gonna be all over the gaff. I am gonna be learning those dance routines. I can't wait.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Honey.

• 31:10Fearne Cotton?

  Honey's coming. She's gonna love it. She's gonna be cringing her head off watching me dance. You get ready.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm excited for her to see it.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households. Yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep theirs.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 32:20Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 32:24Fearne Cotton?

  And this is Boots Off.

• 32:27Speaker 04

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 32:35Fearne Cotton?

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 32:45Fearne Cotton?

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 32:50Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.

• 32:57Fearne Cotton?

  Part of your journey, and a big reason why you wrote this book, is because during this period of feeling really shit, you saw an advertisement for a retreat that has kind of led you to everything since with the breathwork that's become a real foundation for your happiness, your mental health.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:16Fearne Cotton?

  That must have been a very fateful turning point going on that retreat.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  I had no idea what was, what was ahead. I mean, I was feeling lost. I was living in Notting Hill and I was like, I don't know what's around the corner. There wasn't a lot of work going on at the moment. And I was like, I feel like I need to just go on a wild adventure. And I feel like it's maybe I read, I think I read like Eat, Pray, Love or something. I was like, I'm going to Bali.

• 33:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Okay, it worked for her. I'm going to Bali. So I'm going to meet the medicine man.

• 33:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  And I just booked, I went on my own and there was a group of people, no cellphone, no technology, you know, really delicious, organic food. And there was a guy that was speaking and these teachings and tools of life. I don't remember what he said. I just remember going to these breathwork Kundalini classes. And I was like, what is this? Because I was like, oh.

• 34:10Fearne Cotton?

  Well, instantly you were like, this is great.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just, first of all, I just was like, oh my God, like. Just for a little bit, my mind was quiet, or at least just calm, and like, and I was like, oh, there I am. Fuck, I forgot that I could, I could feel like this. And that, that I can exist in this space. I forgot. And I was just like, I, I want more of that. So I went seeking it out wherever I could. And kind of doing it just sporadically and taking different classes. And then I went actually to a doctor, did some blood work, because I, there's a, there's a lot of mental illness in my family. And I was just wanting to check to see where I was at.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  And maybe considering possibly the idea of having a family. But I was like, I just want to make sure what's going on here is okay. I don't want to pass anything down from what I've seen growing up. But you know, it was really tumultuous. It was really, really tough to deal with. And I, I was nervous. And she told me, she was like, actually, let's put that aside. And let's talk about the way your system operates. And she's like, you get really stressed out very easily when you're asked to perform. And I was like, eh, I was like, this is my whole life. What do you mean? And she's like, I recommend breathwork or Kundalini, if you've heard of it. And I was like, oh, my God, yeah, I love it. I've been doing it like sporadically. This is amazing. She's like, it's almost like a, a prescription. And I was like, okay. So I seeked out this teacher.

• 35:41Fearne Cotton?

  And you're a Virgo, so you're like, I like the prescription.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  I love the prescription. Give me like, yeah, some order structure, a list. I'm ready. And I found this amazing teacher and I was just like, I was,

• 35:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I have been off in different parts of the world, doing it for hours at a time during the day. I've done a 200 hour course where I was up at four o'clock in the morning, do an hour and a half before I go to work, do breakfast radio.

• 36:05Fearne Cotton?

  Whoa.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And um, just because I was like, the way I feel after I do these practices and these techniques. Is a sense of peace, a sense of joy, you know, I do feel like we have habitual patterns on the way that we think and cycles that we go through within our mind. And when I do these practices, I have a way of thinking that is more joyous, more possibility, more joy. And the more I am in that state, then like, my reality is starting to shift. My foundation for stress is becoming stronger. And my friends around me were starting to reflect back to me like.

• 36:46Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, little did I know, lead me to being able to write this book, but I'm just so passionate about it.

• 36:57Fearne Cotton?

  Well, when you know it works, and I think when you know that you've got more autonomy and power over just how you feel, how you deal with stress, you know, I think most people listening to this, myself included, don't like feeling stressed, but feel it all the time and feel powerless. So I think if you can introduce something where you're like, this is going to reduce it, or this is going to enable me to get through this and cope.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:20Fearne Cotton?

  Why wouldn't you do it?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And I mean, I gotta, I'm, you know, I've written a book about this. I talk about it all the time. I'm doing events now and stuff, but I, I need this stuff. Like, I have to do this. And I don't have to, I also want to, I enjoy it. But, you know, sometimes we're resistant towards the things that will make us feel better.

• 37:38Fearne Cotton?

  I am all the time.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  I know, and I'm like, you are literally preaching to people to do this. I'm like, sit down and do it for five minutes. And then the second I start, I'm like, oh my God, I love this so much.

• 37:50Fearne Cotton?

  Why do we do that to ourselves?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  I know, why are we, why do we make it?

• 37:53Fearne Cotton?

  Do it all the time.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  It's like, no, I'd rather just be stressed and not take five minutes.

• 37:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, no, I'm gonna do like eight more jobs, even though I'm exhausted, because that's what I do.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  I know, and then complain about it.

• 38:02Fearne Cotton?

  And then moan to everybody. Oh, that's very much my cycle without a doubt. But I think it is, I think to find the things that make you feel well.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:09Fearne Cotton?

  Are so important. And like you say in the book, and you've just touched on, you know that you've got the, the poor mental health in your family, in your lineage. And there's so much research suggesting that we can pass that on, whether it's. Because you're seeing it, you're around it as a kid, or if it's neurologically and bi- you know, biologically. It's really rough to grow up in that environment and you're, you know, you saw your dad struggle when you were a child and he ended up taking his life actually around this time that you'd been on this retreat.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 38:41Fearne Cotton?

  So you had so much to deal with post pussy cat dolls.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:45Fearne Cotton?

  You're not dancing and then out of the blue, you lose your dad. I mean, that must have been just the most overwhelming time.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I mean, you can't put it into words really, right? It's, it was awful. Um, you know, my dad dealt, like you said, with a lot, so I anticipated that something like this could have happened at some point throughout my life. Um, but you're never really prepared for it and when it does happen, it's, it's awful. And I, I think also, you know, not just my dad, I have, I have it, it's, it's, I've got a heavy lineage of extreme, you know, mental illness and people struggling. So it, um, it was super important for me also to, to make sure within myself that I felt

• 39:36Speaker 01

  like I could have some tools that make me feel stable because for a while there, for a second, you start second guessing yourself like, okay, well, wait, is, you know, am I okay? And I've had sleep issues my whole life and I feel like when I did some EMDR, which by the way, you gave me that, do you remember that? Vern, you gave me that recommendation.

• 39:57Fearne Cotton?

  What the fuck?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yes. So this was years ago. I don't know if you remember this, but, um, I reached out to you because I had seen some stuff online about EMDR and you had been speaking about it.

• 40:08Fearne Cotton?

  I didn't know that that's what led you to do it. I was blown away.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you gave me someone in America that you, yeah, and I worked with her. Yeah. Yeah, and through her, I found out that the sleep deprivation stuff was because I was concerned that I would I would go insane. If I wasn't getting enough sleep and by doing all of this.

• 40:26Fearne Cotton?

  How brilliant is like, I can't.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  It's wild.

• 40:31Fearne Cotton?

  Recommend it enough and it's obviously not always easily accessible because it's not necessarily something you can get for free.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:40Fearne Cotton?

  And that's a big issue, but I think if you can get it, especially if like PTSD.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:45Fearne Cotton?

  Or when you do feel like, for me, I had, you know, several things and some of them I haven't tackled yet, but one of them was I could not drive on the motorway. And I thought this is actually becoming debilitating because I can't go and see my parents easily because there there's no train route to their house and. If I want to take my kids somewhere and it's far away, I felt really stuck and angry at myself. I couldn't do it. And also live TV in terms of presenting, I still haven't done and I don't I don't have any. Desire to at this point, I think when I, you know, my life is less hectic, I think, well, maybe I would wanna work on that, but at the moment. Not a priority, but driving was a big one and I did this, I did about six months with this practitioner.

• 41:24Fearne Cotton?

  That I'd been tipped off about and at first I was like, is this, I felt kind of re-traumatized at times and I really didn't wanna go back to certain things that I'd experienced. And then something clicked and I had this one session where I sort of started laughing and I was like. What's this about?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Trauma stored in the body.

• 41:43Fearne Cotton?

  It's in the fucking body, it's in your.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  Bones.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Fashia is stored in there.

• 41:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And that's what's wild, what when it starts happening, you cry, you laugh, you like, it's just a a release.

• 41:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Um, and when I do some of these breathwork exercises, you know, like, I feel like that. I I get this sensation, I know when it's happening now and I get quite almost excited because I feel like my body's releasing.

• 42:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  And letting go and um now I actually look forward to that because I feel like then there's gonna be a nice shift of.

• 42:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Of letting go of stuff that we're holding on to on an unconscious level, right?

• 42:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my god, I don't think we're conscious of like half of it, like probably ninety percent of it, we're just so used to. I feel like this, I react in this way, I panic in these situations and we kind of see it set in stone. So I think.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:34Fearne Cotton?

  If you can experience a shift like that and you know that you can move through it.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:39Fearne Cotton?

  That is fucking amazing.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Right?

• 42:41Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking amazing. I'm so glad that that had such an impact on you.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, tremendously. And it then, you know, led me to, I mean, I've always sort of been hopeful and inquisitive about different tools and stuff that we can learn along the way to help, right? Because I'm like, there's got to be other ways besides, you know, just going out and getting, what, shitfaced?

• 43:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  And then actually feel worse. And all of these sort of led me down this path. And then, yeah, I mean, breathwork has been such an amazing, beautiful thing that I've really connected with, probably the most outside of dancing.

• 43:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  That gives me that feeling.

• 43:20Fearne Cotton?

  So great.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And now, because I do a lot of movement when I do my breathwork as well. And I put on some nice little playlists. So like, I feel like you're kind of like dancing and moving at the same time, using your breath to balance the nervous system.

• 43:35Fearne Cotton?

  With your sleep? Because I'm a shit sleeper.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:38Fearne Cotton?

  And I've gotten a bit better, but then I'm going through a bad patch right at the moment. And actually, last night was the first night in ages that I didn't take melatonin or I have anti-anxiety medication if I need it.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:51Fearne Cotton?

  And I was like, I need to prove to myself I can do one night where I don't have anything. And I was laying there getting impatient, like, oh, my God, this is really, this is not good. I'm gonna, what if I'm awake till like one or two and I've got a really busy day tomorrow? And then, thank God, I fell asleep by like half ten. It was fine.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Fearne Cotton?

  And I slept on off till half five. I was like, actually, that's a pretty good night. I can cope with that. But not being able to sleep is horrific. It makes you feel like dog shit. Sometimes it makes you feel like you cannot cope with like the smallest things in the day. There'll be a ton of people listening to this who'll be going through it right now.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:25Fearne Cotton?

  What has helped you in terms of sleep?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Honestly, I've had sleep issues since I was fourteen. I had a really, really bad episode when I was in high school. I didn't sleep for four nights and I thought I was going insane. And from that moment, my brain just sort of picked up on this belief system. And I struggled so much because we were, you know, and then I got in the dolls, we were traveling and moving around different places, hotel rooms, different time zones. I gotta go, you know, I gotta get up and make sure I perform well and I do well. I'm not gonna have enough sleep, the stress, the cortisol levels are just, you know, everything is out of whack. Um, for me, I don't know if you have a routine before you go to bed.

• 45:04Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it varies. It's usually like beg my children to go to sleep and then I read until I get sleepy. Like, that's my routine.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, but that has made-

• 45:13Fearne Cotton?

  That calms me, the reading.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's same. And I'm not a big, I wasn't a big reader really, like, growing up and stuff. But first of all, again, using breath work to be able to regulate the nervous system is one. I love, I just thought this stuff was really boring and I'm like, oh, I don't want, again, resistant towards it. I don't wanna do it. Like, I just wanna go to bed and go to sleep. Like, why not? I just lay there and I'm stressed. I'm like, oh my god, cortisol levels are rising, you know, like, ruminating. I mean, I do think some stuff is hormonal at times. Um, but my relationship to it, first of all, is better than it's ever been since I was fourteen. I'm forty-four years old and I'm telling you, the last few years, this has just happened, last, um, last few years, since I was fourteen to just be forty-four and now feel like I'm able to like,

• 45:58Speaker 01

  okay, I, it's routine, it's ritual for me. And understanding that, okay, tonight, if I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm fully anxious and I'm having the heartbeat and I'm like going over and over on the cycle in the head. I'm like, I just try and talk to myself. I'm like, okay, tomorrow might be a little tough because you might be tired. But it's okay, it's just gonna be one night and you're able to get through this. Because back in the day, I thought it would last for who knows how long. And then I would feel like I was gonna be sent off to somewhere.

• 46:31Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:32Fearne Cotton?

  That would be the panic is-

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:34Fearne Cotton?

  You're never going to sleep again and therefore your life is ruined. And actually, I'm sort of, I'm trying to talk to myself, like, I manage perfectly well with my ten-year-old, who lately has sort of like been a bit, finding going to sleep tricky.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:47Fearne Cotton?

  And I go into her bedroom now before bed and I'm like, do you know what? If you were to lie there all night, just resting, it's okay.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:55Fearne Cotton?

  And I say to her, because she's only ten, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm gonna admit this. I go to her, just say in your head- And she loves that I'm swearing because she finds it really funny. So she's like, go and say the thing. And I go, fuck it. And then she's giggly and then she's in a good mood. So she goes to bed kind of laughing. And then she, I can see her kind of like chuckling as she's lying there. And then when I get into bed, I'm like, no, now say it to yourself.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:18Fearne Cotton?

  Like, fuck it.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:19Fearne Cotton?

  It's gonna be okay. It's not the end of the world. Like,

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:21Fearne Cotton?

  tomorrow you'll be a bit sleepier. It's okay. You're gonna, you're gonna cope. But it's the panic before of,

• 47:26Speaker 01

  This is it.

• 47:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's everything's going to be awful. I've had so many nights like that where I just, I literally haven't slept. Or I used to get then OCD would click in and I'd have to go to the loo. And I would go to the loo and I'm not even exaggerating. One night I went out to a party and I got in way later than I wanted to at like, one, two in the morning.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:43Fearne Cotton?

  And from two till eight AM, I went to the loo all night constantly, like barely anything coming out, obviously. I'd get in bed, five minutes later, go for a wee, get in bed, five minutes later, go for a wee, all night. And I couldn't not do it. It was the worst.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  I can resonate with that. It's awful.

• 48:01Fearne Cotton?

  The worst.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I know. And you're like, no, I'm okay. Actually, I can just go to sleep. There's nothing in me. There's nothing to release anymore.

• 48:08Fearne Cotton?

  I had this like over, um, like a sort of a weird over, over awareness or like heightened awareness of my bladder.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:17Fearne Cotton?

  Like, like it was full, but there was nothing in it.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, it's the worst.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  The worst. I mean, I will say like, if I'm standing here being forty four years old and able to get some nights rest off just some natural supplements and some breathwork and routine, like it is possible.

• 48:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's possible.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Because I have taken everything under the sun for many decades of my life to just try and get maybe a couple, two hours, four hours of sleep, just to be able to function that the next day, but actually feel worse because of what you've taken. And if I, if I can do it, I feel like it is possible. But again, as you know, again, there will, there'll be a night where you don't like, and it's a bit shitty or you're going over something in your head. But I also really try to just sit with myself like, okay, this is not going to be that serious tomorrow. Like, let it go. And I even did, I tried something, I'm trial and erroring a few things lately.

• 49:07Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Because I'm really getting into this neuroplasticity thing. Trying to like, understand it and because I feel like we are habitual thoughts, right? And even sometimes when I don't feel it, I'm trying to repeat things over and over again when certain things come up. Or like routine in the morning when my feet hit the ground, even if I'm like, oh God, it's raining, it's gray. I gotta get up at five, I gotta go to work. I'm like, today is gonna be a good day. So many amazing things are happening for you. You have so much to be grateful for. You're healthy, you have a beautiful family, you have beautiful friends. And I tell myself this every single morning. And I've done it now for the last few months and I'm starting to feel shifts and changes and things.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  So, and again, I'm just trying to trial and error stuff on myself when I read or I, you know, see something online. I'm like, okay, let me give this a go.

• 49:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  And see, see what happens.

• 49:59Fearne Cotton?

  Too right.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Um, and I do, yeah, you know, there is, there is stuff in this. And so I think sometimes a good, a good thing is when things are feeling like they're out of control. Like sit down, take a moment, take, you know, some deep breaths and just be like, okay, it's all right. And repeat things that you're grateful for, repeat things that like, that make you feel good.

• 50:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  It's cheesy, but it's.

• 50:21Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's so fucking true. It's the simple stuff that sticks. And I think also with sleep. A lot of the time when we talk about sleep.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:29Fearne Cotton?

  It's all about what you do just before bed, but actually it's the whole day before. That usually informs then how you sleep. And I have to remind myself of this because when I overload my diary, because I'm like, no, I could fit one more thing in there. Or I should be working harder or why is this not going as well as it should? And then I'm pushing myself and pushing myself. Of course I'm not gonna sleep. I go to bed with a full head. Actually, I learned something the other day, I mean, in, in not particularly comprehensive manner. But I heard this theory and I think it's like an old school psychological theory where it's about the vertical and the horizontal. So the vertical is like when we're walking about, we're moving about in our day. And we're talking to other humans or we're even looking in the mirror.

• 51:13Fearne Cotton?

  Everything is very cerebral and it's like, I'm talking to you and we've like compartmentalized everything. And we're just, and we're looking at things in our eye line. And then as soon as we lie down in the horizontal, that's when we're like, oh, here's my inner world. And this is my body and this is how I'm actually feeling. And it's one of the first moments for most people when we're like on the rush, where we go. Am I actually, do I feel alright? Like, what's, you know, and that's the moment where we have to process the whole day or our whole lives.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  It's wild actually to think that, isn't it?

• 51:48Fearne Cotton?

  I need to do more of that in the day rather than wait until my head hits the pillow.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Do five minutes of breath work even, like, you know what I mean?

• 51:56Fearne Cotton?

  I need to.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  But like, yeah, you're right. And it's so, and especially the world we live in, there's so much stimuli, there's so much information, there's so many messages, emails, you know, we have to be on, on, on all the time. And it's wild to think that then, like, all of a sudden, yeah. Okay, now go to sleep.

• 52:10Fearne Cotton?

  I'm just gonna switch off.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Goodnight. Some people can do that. I'm like, that is a superpower.

• 52:15Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so jealous.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Amanda Holden is like that. I work with, you know, we all know her sleeping patterns.

• 52:22Fearne Cotton?

  I love Amanda. I am so jealous.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  She's so fabulous. She, he's just one of those kind of people, you know, that can just, their head hits the pillow and they're out. And I'm like, ah, heaven.

• 52:32Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no. Do you, do you ever like write things down before bed? I sometimes think I need to get into the habit of that, like, get not only a practical list of you need to do this tomorrow, but also like, I'm fucked off about this. Or like, this is making me sad, or like, whatever it might be.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  I have in the past. I don't do that as much anymore. That's not necessarily a part of my routine, but I know that that works for many people to just get it out, get it out of your head. It makes sense. For me, when I do my routine, I actually, it's wild, because I've started to, I think, train my body in a sense to understand, like, and then these supplements, I do also stand by as well.

• 53:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah, like magnesium?

• 53:08Speaker 01

  So it's a magnesium three and eight.

• 53:10Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  L-theanine and apigenin.

• 53:12Fearne Cotton?

  I've not heard of that one.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Okay. The three of them combined, Huberman, I've, I've learned off of him, he's a neuroscientist. And again, I've trialed and there are so many different things.

• 53:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we need to.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  But doing, yeah, I take those, so about 30 minutes before I go to bed, I turn my phone off.

• 53:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, big one.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  I do, I turn it off. I know, it's, it's such a big deal. I take those supplements, I have a bath. This is also, I mean, I, again, I don't have kids, so this is, but I do this all at about 15 ish minutes.

• 53:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  You know, and it's, it is doable. I do some breath work. I do like box breath or four, seven, eight, or alternate nostril breathing, or you know, just anything that I, that I know will get me into parasympathetic state. And then I read and it's like I start to feel it. Okay. And I'm a built up trust within myself because before I get nervous, oh, you think you're sleeping? I guess, no, no, you're not. It pulled me back out.

• 54:06Fearne Cotton?

  I know that feeling.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  And I've gotten to a place where I'm like, oh no, it's okay.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric and on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households, yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep theirs. Ask a financial

• 54:56Speaker 02

  professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 55:12Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 55:15Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 55:26Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 55:33Speaker 04

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 55:36Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 55:38Speaker 04

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 55:41Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 55:49Fearne Cotton?

  Not only is your book full of anecdotes and helpful stories, you know, this stuff for me is helpful. I need to hear other people sleep badly. So I'm not like a freak at night going, it's only you in the whole world that's awake right now. But you've also got really practical tips if you want to try box breath for the first time and why and looking at the parasympathetic nervous system and giving us the information that we need to go, oh, I see why this works. Because also, what, you know, when I was reading it, I was really consciously going, yeah, no, that's it, right? Am I breathing? Because I know that I hold my breath when I'm stressed. And I'll even do it if I'm, I'm really comfy doing these podcasts. I love doing these podcasts and I've been doing them a long time. But if

• 56:32Fearne Cotton?

  there's a bit of a chat where I feel nervous or a bit edgy, I know I'm holding my breath and I'm like, fuck, I've not even breathed in for like 30 seconds. That's not good.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  No, and every breath we take sends a signal to our brain and our body. And most of us are in fight or flight all the time. Because we're shallow breathing, like you said, we're holding our breath, we're like, we're not, you know, not breathing deeply. So by even just the power of being conscious of our breath and extending that exhale and breathing through the nose as well, we activate the parasympathetic, which says we're safe, we can relax, it's okay. And again, repetition, the more you do it, the more the, your foundation for stress, because, you know, we're not going to exist in a world where we don't get triggered and stuff's not happening. It's not going to exist. But at least, like, I call it my bounce back. My bounce back is so much quicker these days, where some things

• 57:23Speaker 01

  I would have been like paralyzed with anxiety, which you wouldn't, my boyfriend's like, people have no idea. Because just internally, what's going on, because from the outside, it looks like everything's fine.

• 57:35Fearne Cotton?

  I have the same, I've done like live TV shows and I've had a panic attack the whole way through and everyone's like, I couldn't tell. Are you joking? I felt like I was leaving my body, floating off to another stratosphere.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Right? It's wild. So my bounce back to feeling like, like not beating myself quite as much, like less whoopee whoopee and talking. Being able to talk myself and bring myself back to a more, we call in like Kundalini breathwork, neutral state.

• 58:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Um, is quicker than it's ever been my whole life. And I really, I really believe it's because I'm, I'm showing up and doing these practices and these stuff that help tell my nervous system. It's like, okay, it's all right. We can, we can handle this.

• 58:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and doing it regularly, like having the discipline, which is boring. No one wants to hear it. No one wants to hear that this shit is boring and then it takes, you've got to do it every day, but you do.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:25Fearne Cotton?

  You've got to do it all the fucking time.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, I mean, even if, even if you don't do it all the time, which I do suggest having like a daily routine, but even if you can sit down for like 30 minutes a week, once a week, I mean, I'd love for you to do more than that because that just seems like nothing nowadays when I do like all these lovely, beautiful hours of this stuff. But even just that, where you can feel that shift in state, it's the, it's the shift when you start to be like, oh, okay. I feel a little lighter. I feel a bit more peaceful, a little more joyful. I feel like I can think more in a state of like, oh, this could be possible. What if that works out? Actually, there's a, there's a solution to that. Um, and that's that shift that happens. And I feel like, you know, sometimes a shift in your state is a mini miracle.

• 59:11Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God, it is. I know. And just to like let your shoulders drop like.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:15Fearne Cotton?

  Ah, just like, I kept doing it in the book. I was like, okay, that's interesting. I'm writing a note about that. But oh, I'm not breathing again. Yeah, I know, right? I was like really focused on it when I was reading the books, actually comical.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  I know, you're going to be hyper aware of it.

• 59:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so funny. But it's, it's a bloody brilliant book and it's, and it's so helpful on a practical level. But also I think for you to so generously and courageously share bits of your story that I know are not comfortable to talk about or enjoyable to look back on, you know, it's a lot for you to go into your family lineage, but also all the stuff you've been through in your career. So I think it's a very, very helpful thing to share. So thank you.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I mean, I think I, you know, I wanted to in a sense also to show that like, I'm doing these practices because of what I've been through. And I know that what I've been through is just a really a human story at the end of the day, because nobody gets out unscathed, you know? And so, um, I hope it just inspires, you know, obviously I'm passionate about breathwork, but like whatever makes you feel better.

• 1:00:12Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Keep doing more of that.

• 1:00:14Fearne Cotton?

  Whatever makes you feel well is wellness.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:17Fearne Cotton?

  Simple. Um, first of all, in this little end segment, I want to ask you. We are creating a playlist of songs that make you feel really great.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:27Fearne Cotton?

  You can put Pussycat Dolls in there if you want, but what are you putting on our Happy Place playlist?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, this is such a pressure because I

• 1:00:34Fearne Cotton?

  It is because

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  My brain's going in like so many different

• 1:00:36Fearne Cotton?

  My brain goes, I can't think of one song in the world. Not one.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  I mean, there's like, oh my God, there's so many good ones. I feel like that's like just typical and I'm like, I like, I love Destiny's Child. So like Destiny's Child Survivor is always a good one.

• 1:00:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  I used to use that when I'd go in my cryo chambers. I'm like, oh my God.

• 1:00:57Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, I did that once. It's horrible. So cold. I couldn't believe it.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're chilly.

• 1:01:01Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll go with Destiny's Child.

• 1:01:04Fearne Cotton?

  Can't we put, don't, don't you wish you were a girl from A Lot Like Me in there? Because I will now, no.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Of course we can put it on. I just felt that was cringy.

• 1:01:10Fearne Cotton?

  Not at all. It's one of the greatest songs of all time.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Oh, you know what I'm excited for is we're getting to perform Club Song, which is our latest single for the first time coming up. I'm excited about that.

• 1:01:22Fearne Cotton?

  So far.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, it's gonna be exciting. We're doing the American Music Awards and Busta Rhymes is coming out.

• 1:01:29Fearne Cotton?

  How amazing. I'm so excited for this whole new era. It's so great. Lastly, Ashley, where is your happy place?

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good. Oh, I mean, with my mom.

• 1:01:43Fearne Cotton?

  Your lovely mom.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  You know, I think that's, I'm, I've been so lucky being here in the UK because I've got a really beautiful chosen family. But my mom is just, I just love her to pieces and I miss her and I wish Phoenix was a bit closer. But yeah, that or a beach, I'm good.

• 1:01:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, or at the beach with your mum.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 1:02:02Fearne Cotton?

  Love.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:02:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, well, Ashley, I've loved every minute of talking to you and this could quite literally go on for weeks if we allowed it to. But thank you for being on Happy Place and good luck with everything that's to come.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:02:17Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, thank you, Ashley. That was so wonderful. And I think for most people, like, I don't think, although Ashley's written a lot, you know, about a lot of this stuff in her book, many people won't know a lot of Ashley's backstory, what she's been through and how she's dealt with it. So I'm so grateful that Ashley felt like it was a safe place where she could talk about all of this stuff. And, and also, more importantly, talk about some of the solutions that she's found. That feels very, very helpful. The Pussycat Dolls Tour kicks off in Europe later this summer. A massive thanks again to Ashley and to you. I love you loads.

• 1:03:17Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households. Yet, many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  theirs. Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 1:04:25Speaker 06

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North. And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life. William's the arbiter of etiquette. And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang. So if you want laugh-out-loud Stories and brutally honest moments. Then you'll love Help, I Sexed My Boss. Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday. On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Just search Sexed It. Be warned, it's a bit rude.