The key to happiness? Know thyself, says Gretchen Rubin

What is happiness? How do you define it? Maybe it's feeling good, having a sunny disposition or being fulfilled, even if you don't feel pleasant all the time. Gretchen Rubin, host of the Happier podcast and author of The Happiness Project, says happiness is less about attaining joy than it is about growing in the right direction. In this episode, she explains how to make small changes that can move you toward happiness, and why knowing yourself helps contribute to this emotion. This episode was originally published on March 6, 2025. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The 2026 midterm elections are upon us. On November 3rd, voters will determine what the next two years of their local leadership and the balance of national government will look like. Listen to the NPR News Now podcast for all the updates you need ahead of and after November 3rd from NPR News.

• 0:23Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey, everybody. It's Marielle. Question for you. How happy are you? Yeah, I know. I guess I should answer it, too. I don't know. I mean, what is happiness, anyway?

• 0:42Speaker 02

  I started my career in law, so I have many memories of spending an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract, and happiness is even more elusive.

• 0:52Marielle Segarra?

  This is Gretchen Rubin. She's a writer who studies happiness, good habits, and human nature. She also has a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. She says trying to pin it down exactly-- and yes, I did try to do that in our interview-- isn't all that helpful.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  There are, like, 15 academic definitions of happiness. And I think that for the regular person, it's not that useful to argue about joy versus contentment versus well-being versus life satisfaction. It's easier to think about moving in the right direction. Because what is happiness is a very hard question to answer, but will this make you happier is something that usually we have a lot of clarity about.

• 1:34Marielle Segarra?

  Another thing Gretchen has learned about happiness is that it's not one size fits all. And to get closer to it, to move in the right direction, we need to understand ourselves, our preferences, our habits, how we tick. So on this episode of Life Kit, we talk about how to do that and how to move towards happiness.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  This week on the NPR Politics Podcast, the midterm elections are wrapping up and millions of people have already voted. We're taking one final check of the electoral pulse with a new NPR PBS News Marist Poll. It shows Democrats still poised to make gains, but also with some warning signs for just how many. We'll explain on the NPR Politics Podcast.

• 2:26Speaker 04

  This midterm election season, let the NPR app be your guide for clear, independent coverage. You'll find big picture analysis and stories from your community and learn what to watch for on election night and beyond. Head to the polls and stay informed this midterm election season. Download the NPR app at npr.org/2026election. Everything you need in one place.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message. What if instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? No catching up on manual edits, no more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So, marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at hubspot.com.

• 3:18Marielle Segarra?

  Gretchen, you write in your book, Secrets of Adulthood, that happiness doesn't always make us feel happy. What do you mean by that?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  If you're thinking about how to make your life happier, there's four to four pieces that you can think of. Feeling good, feeling bad, feeling right, and an atmosphere of growth. So, feeling good is having more of the things that make you feel good. Then there is getting rid of the things that make you feel bad. Then there's feeling right, which is, does your life reflect your values? And sometimes we do things that don't make us feel good. They might make us feel bad, but we do them because they make us feel right. So, you might visit a sick friend in the hospital, even though you hate going to hospitals, you dread going, you don't enjoy being there, and you look back on it with dread. And yet, you think, well, to be a good friend, I should visit my friend in the hospital. You don't- Don't do it because it makes you feel good.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  It actually makes you feel bad, but it serves your happiness because it's a way of feeling right. It's a way of feeling that your life reflects your values. And there's also the atmosphere of growth. And this is, we feel happier when we're growing, when we're learning, when we're fixing things, when we're teaching, when we're sort of making the world a better place. And often the atmosphere of growth is accompanied by insecurity, frustration, feeling incompetent. You know, learning something can be very, very stressful. So sometimes to have our lives be happier, we have to put up with things that don't make us feel happy.

• 4:44Marielle Segarra?

  Mm hmm. They don't make you feel like that yellow smiley face on the side of the plastic bag.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:51Marielle Segarra?

  And we know that relationships are very important to our well being.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  A thousand percent. Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree. If you had to pick a key to happiness, maybe even the key to happiness, you're exactly right. It's relationships.

• 5:04Marielle Segarra?

  Well, you talk about how in order to be happy, we need to know ourselves, right? What does that look like in practice?

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Well, you think you'd know yourself, right? You just hang out with yourself all day long. But knowing ourselves is hard because it's very easy to get distracted by the way we wish we were or the way other people expect us to be or our fantasy self. So it's just very helpful to pay close attention to what is true about us. And it's funny like how we might not notice very obvious things about ourselves. Like are you a morning person or a night person? And if you're a night person and you say to yourself, well, I'm going to get up and exercise first thing before I go to work in the morning, you're not setting yourself up for success. Not because it's not a good idea for someone, but it's not a good idea for you. Because you're a night person, you're probably much better off doing it later in the day.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  And there's so many ways to understand ourselves and how we thrive as we're trying to shape our lives. But it can be very hard to see ourselves clearly.

• 6:08Marielle Segarra?

  What are some other things that people do because they think it'll make them happy, but it's not actually the right fit for them?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  That's a mistake that is so easy to make is thinking that there's one right way, or there's one best way to go about making our lives happier. And the fact is, like, no tool fits every hand. For example, many people swear by meditation. I have tried meditation, I mean, tried for months, like, three times, doesn't work for me. I tried keeping a gratitude journal, that's something also that you're often recommended to do. I was deeply annoyed by my gratitude journal. But for some people, they're a really important tool. And so I think the mistake is thinking that somebody can tell you what will work for you, but you're unique, just like everybody else, and each of us needs to figure out what is right for us. And that's where the self-knowledge comes in, because there is no magic one-size-fits-all

• 6:59Speaker 02

  solution.

• 7:02Marielle Segarra?

  This is something Gretchen has learned over many years of studying happiness, that self-knowledge is key. Because, she puts it in one essay, "We can build a happy life only on the foundation of our own values, our own interests, and our own temperament." So takeaway one, know yourself. There are lots of questions you can consider about your personality and your preferences. Some suggestions from Gretchen, are you a morning person or a night person? Do you prefer simplicity or abundance? Do you need other people to hold you accountable? Or do you hate having someone tell you what to do? When you make decisions, are you a satisficer? That means you'll pick the hotel as soon as you find one that meets your criteria. Or are you a maximizer, who needs to look at every single option first?

• 7:46Marielle Segarra?

  Here's another one, when you're facing temptation, are you an abstainer or a moderator?

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Abstainers are people like me, where it's easier to give up something altogether than to indulge in moderation. But moderators are people who get kind of panicky and rebellious if they're told they can never do something, and so they should have it a little bit, or sometimes. So like, I could have, like, no Thin Mint Cookies, or I could have a sleeve of Thin Mint Cookies. I can't have one Thin Mint Cookie, or half a brownie. So I just gave up sugar altogether, because that's easier. For moderators, they think, oh, you know, don't be so rigid, don't be so hard on yourself. Don't deny yourself, don't make something totally off limits. That's not good. And I'm like, it works for me. It's better for me. It's easier for me. I prefer that way. But it's not for everybody. Some people are moderators.

• 8:33Marielle Segarra?

  Once you know yourself, how do you use that information to be happier? Do you try to be more like yourself? Or do you try to push back against some of who you are?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Well, often when we're trying to make our lives happier, we might be trying to follow a new habit, like reading more, going to sleep on time, exercising. Or we might be trying to cut back on something like doom scrolling or night snacking. Or we might be wanting to push ourselves to do something that we kind of don't want to do, but we know would make us happier in the long run, like start a book club or join a hiking group. And so when we know ourselves, we can think about what are the things that are making it harder for me to do that? And how might I think about ways to make it easier? Like, let's say you're somebody who loves familiarity. So some people love familiarity and some people love novelty. So let's say you're trying to exercise more. If you know that you love novelty,

• 9:28Speaker 02

  you might really think about, okay, let me think of lots of ideas, different ways I could exercise, like different sports I could try. I'll join a gym that like has many, many, many options. I'll set up my life so that I have a lot of different choices and I really mix it up. Where somebody who's a familiarity lover might say to themselves, I want to get really comfortable in one place. I know that's going to make it easier and more pleasant for me to go. So I'm really going to commit to this one place. I'm going to go and I'm really going to, you know, pay attention. I'm going to try to get to know the people there. So it feels very familiar. Because as a familiarity lover, that's going to make it easier for me to stick to a habit that I think is going to make me happier. So again, it's not that one person's right and one person's wrong. It's just that different circumstances appeal to different people. And you want to take yourself into account

• 10:13Speaker 02

  as you're setting things up.

• 10:17Marielle Segarra?

  We'll have more Life Kit after the break.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message. What if, instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? No catching up on manual edits, no more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So, marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at hubspot.com.

• 10:56Speaker 05

  This week on Here and Now Anytime, in the closing days of the midterm elections, we're in Iowa and Arizona, two states where independent voters will decide who controls Congress for the next two years.

• 11:07Speaker 06

  Even though we're in a red district, we will get out the Democratic and independent vote. We will.

• 11:14Speaker 05

  Here and Now Anytime. Listen on the NPR app or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

• 11:23Marielle Segarra?

  OK, takeaway two. Gretchen has another framework that can help you understand yourself and what might make you happy. It's called the four tendencies. This is about whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations. And she says this is a narrow aspect of our nature, but it is significant.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  So, we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like my own desire to meditate more or keep a New Year's resolution. So, depending on whether you meet or resist an outer and inner expectations, that makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. Upholders are people who readily meet both outer and inner expectations. So, they meet the work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are very important. They tend to love schedules, to-do lists, execution. They don't need a lot of supervision. They can be a little bit rigid. I say that as an upholder myself. So, their motto is "disappointment is my freedom."

• 12:23Marielle Segarra?

  OK, so that's the first one, upholders. Then we have questioners. What's their deal?

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're deciding whether something meets their inner standard. If it meets their inner standard, they will meet that expectation. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So they're very focused on justifications, rationale. They tend to love research. They can sometimes fall into analysis paralysis because their desire for perfect information can make it hard for them to move forward or make a decision. They need their questions answered. So their motto is, "I'll comply if you convince me why."

• 13:04Marielle Segarra?

  OK, so what about the third tendency? That's the obligers.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  This is the biggest tendency for both men and women. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are people who can keep their promises to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises to themselves. So these are people who say, "Why can't I follow through for myself when I'm so good at following through with other people? Why can't I make myself a priority? Why don't I make time for self-care? Why do I always give to others, but I can't give to myself?" That's obliger. So their motto is, "You can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me."

• 13:39Marielle Segarra?

  All right, and then the last group is the rebels.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  This is the smallest tendency. It's a conspicuous tendency, but it's a small tendency. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do or choose to do, but if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. And typically, they don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they don't sign up for a 10 a.m. spin class on Saturday because they think, "I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday, and just the idea that somebody's expecting me to show up is going to annoy me." So their motto is, "You can't make me, and neither can I." And the four tendencies is helpful because if you're trying to do something because you think it's going to make you happier,

• 14:25Speaker 02

  like read more, or call your mom every day, or whatever it is, if you know if you're an upholder, questioner, obliger, rebel, that will give you a lot of clues about how to set yourself up so that you will follow through.

• 14:37Marielle Segarra?

  Hmm. Knowing you're an upholder, how do you use that to figure out what makes you happy?

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I know that something like spontaneity is not important to me. I really like to have a plan. And I use my plan and my calendar to achieve my aims for myself, and I find that immensely satisfying. And I think from the outside, sometimes people feel like upholders might feel oppressed by that. But now I know that I'm not. And also, one of the things that I really learned about being an upholder is like, when I'm stressed out, a lot of times people, if you're under a lot of stress, people will say things like, "Well, you should ease up on yourself and like, let yourself off the hook." Like, usually you would do X, Y, or Z, but you should just like, take a break from it. Now, that might be good advice for other people, but as an upholder and having talked to other upholders, that's actually, makes us more stressed out.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  We find it relaxing and reassuring to like, execute on a plan. And so often, when I'm under a lot of stress, I will go deeper into my usual healthy habits instead of trying to give myself a break, because that is what is reassuring to me. And so again, it's not that people are giving me advice that's ill-intentioned. They mean well. But I had to learn from experience, like, that doesn't work for me. That doesn't actually make me feel better. It makes me feel worse.

• 15:52Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, it's good to know that about yourself.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 15:54Marielle Segarra?

  I immediately know which one I am, by the way.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Ooh, which one are you?

• 15:58Marielle Segarra?

  I'm a questioner.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Okay, well, I was gonna say, obliger is the biggest tendency, and the next biggest is questioner. So I would say, you're probably an obliger or a questioner. I'm married to a questioner, so I have to say I have a special fondness for the questioner tendency.

• 16:10Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I think that people can definitely find it annoying. They find the questions annoying.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:16Marielle Segarra?

  They think you're, they think you don't trust or believe them.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yes, that's exactly.

• 16:20Marielle Segarra?

  And maybe you don't.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 16:22Marielle Segarra?

  But, but it's not personal. It's just, it's just business, baby. It's just, I mean, I'm a journalist, right? So it's like, trust but verify, and I think I've always been that way. But, this happens all the time at the doctor. It's like, okay, but why that thing?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:39Marielle Segarra?

  And exactly how does that drug work?

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:41Marielle Segarra?

  And, because you also know that they have a million patients.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:45Marielle Segarra?

  And they miss things.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:46Marielle Segarra?

  And they disagree. With that other doctor, so why shouldn't I ask?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Well, and and questioners love to customize. And you're saying like, but but what about me? I need to do it in the way that's right for me. And questioners can drain and overwhelm people with their constant questioning because people don't understand. They just want to know why. They just want to understand your reasons. But sometimes people misinterpret this, as you suggested, by thinking like, you're questioning my judgment or you're undermining my authority. One of the things I always say to people in the healthcare profession is you have to explain why for a questioner or they might just come up with their own reasons for doing something. So if I was going to tell you to take medication, I wouldn't just say to you like, okay, I want for you to go for a 20 minute walk in the morning and then take this medication right after and then have breakfast.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  You might say like, well, it's more convenient for me to take it at night. And I don't want to go for a 20 minute walk. So I need to say to you, you need to take it with food or it can have give you nausea. Or research has shown that if you take this after exercise, it's going to be twice as effective. Because once you have those reasons, then you will follow.

• 17:51Marielle Segarra?

  I I've talked about this on the show. I had breast cancer last year. I went through treatment. And yeah, and so the decisions that I've had to make and the decisions I'm making still are high stakes.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:03Marielle Segarra?

  And they're they're very like, and doctors do disagree. And they'll tell you completely different things. And you'll realize that one of them, when you push with your questions, they get upset because they don't actually know. And they're afraid to tell you they don't know. But someone else might know. And so that's where I'm like, you know what? What's going to make me feel happiest and safest is to find a doctor who knows or who will tell me what they don't know.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. But you can imagine that for somebody else, they're like, I just want to do what the doctor tells me.

• 18:33Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Just, I want you to just tell me what to do and I will do it.

• 18:37Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, what about obligers? How can they use the knowledge of this tendency to be happier?

• 18:42Speaker 02

  The solution for obligers is very straightforward. Want to read more, join a book group? Want to exercise more? Take a class, work out with a trainer, work out with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up, raise money for a charity, take your dog for a run who's so disappointed if she doesn't get to go for her run. You just need outer accountability, even to meet an inner expectation.

• 19:02Marielle Segarra?

  And what about rebels? What makes them happy?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  A rebel, it's like they want to do something less if it's on the calendar. And so if you are a rebel yourself, or you're dealing with a rebel, the idea of like, well, just sign up for a woodworking class. Well, they're not going to want to do it. Or even sometimes rebels, like they don't like the feeling of, oh, we're going to go to a concert in two weeks. So if you're dealing with rebel, it might be more like, hey, um, I'm going tonight. Or if you feel like it, you could join, you know, we're going to go. And if you feel like joining us, join us. And if not, like we'll catch you another time and then they can decide to join you or not. It's not, and people are like, oh, well, you must not want to be my friend because you never want to commit to a plan. Instead of understanding like, oh no, they just don't like committing to plans. So let's set things up in a way that, um, like doesn't, doesn't irk them.

• 19:46Marielle Segarra?

  I think a lot of folks imagine that if they get, make a big change in their lives, they get a new job or achieve some big goal, get married, have a baby, then maybe then they'll finally be happy. They'll have checked off all the boxes and then happiness will just come.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's moving in a direction rather than achieving something. Sometimes, you know, big changes can really have a big effect on our happiness. But often even very, very small things. Like here's a funny one. So a thing that I often talk about on the Happier Podcast is the one minute rule. This is the idea that if you can do something in a minute without delay, you should just go ahead and do it. You should print out a document and file it, or hang up your coat, or, you know, put your mug in the dishwasher, whatever. And it just kind of gets rid of the scum of clutter that's on the surface of life. And it takes less than a minute by definition. And so many people are like, oh my gosh, this completely changed my life. And, you know, and sometimes getting that little stuff out of the way makes you feel more prepared to take on big stuff.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Like a friend of mine said, um, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I can switch careers. You know, sometimes we get energy from these very small things. So sometimes it's a big change, but sometimes it's a small change.

• 21:00Marielle Segarra?

  And that is our third and final takeaway. Don't discount the ways you can feel happiness in small doses every day. Happiness doesn't always mean making a big life change. And as Gretchen said earlier, it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be in a state of rapture all the time.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  There are things that we do that make us happier over the long term that do not make us happier in the short term, whether because we have to ask more of ourselves or maybe we have to deprive ourselves of something.

• 21:25Marielle Segarra?

  All right, Gretchen, thank you so much. This has been great. I learned a lot.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Thank you. Made me very happy to get the chance to talk to you.

• 21:35Marielle Segarra?

  OK, time for a recap. Takeaway one is to know yourself. Ask yourself questions about your personality and your preferences, like, are you a morning person or a night person? Do you need other people to hold you accountable? Or do you hate that? Are you a satisficer or a maximizer, an abstainer or a moderator? Takeaway two, consider the four tendencies framework. And again, this is about whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations. Knowing whether you're an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel will also help you make decisions that can move you closer to happiness. And takeaway three, consider the small things, too. Happiness isn't just about making big life changes.

• 22:20Marielle Segarra?

  It's about the things we do every day.

• 22:23Marielle Segarra?

  For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one on how to manage your emotions and another on how to start a spiritual practice. You can find those at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter. I think it would make you very happy. Also, we love hearing from you, so if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us at [email protected]. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sam Yellowhorse Kessler. Our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Claire Marie Schneider, Margaret Serino, Sylvie Douglas, and Mika Ellison.

• 23:08Marielle Segarra?

  Engineering support comes from Zoe Vangenhoven and Patrick Murray. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 23:18Speaker 07

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Sheets and more. No new tools, no extra logins, just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  On the latest episode of Sources and Methods, in Israel this week, an election with no clear winner. Next week, in the US, an election that could shift the balance of power in Washington. And in both countries, a defining issue for voters, the war in Iran. We look at where things could be headed in that conflict. Listen this week to Sources and Methods, the national security podcast from NPR.