Can You Be Body Positive And Still Want To Lose Weight?

The fat acceptance movement has spent decades fighting weight stigma and calling for equal rights for fat people in all areas of life. As the movement moved online, the idea of body positivity emerged.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship, full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frill seafood shacks

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now, Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:41Dan Pashman?

  This episode includes explicit language as well as discussion of suicide, body image, and weight loss.

• 1:48Dan Pashman?

  So, you like glamour?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. I'm a glam girl. You can't tell.

• 1:52Dan Pashman?

  For people who are only on audio here, Gabrielle has a leopard print top. Tell me about your nails. The nail situation is very nice.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we have like some gold accents, some airbrushed little flowers.

• 2:05Dan Pashman?

  Solid red lipstick matches the Sporkful logo on your mic flag.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I mean, hello.

• 2:11Dan Pashman?

  Big gold earrings. You're rocking it.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I'm from the Bronx. I have a mob wife aesthetic. I don't know what to say. I can't help it.

• 2:21Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Quick bit of exciting news to share here at the top. My bestselling cookbook, Anything's Possible, is on super special sale as part of Amazon Prime Days. Amazon Prime Days is now two weeks, so it's happening now through October 7th. Get the recipe for Cacho y Pepe with Chili Crisp, Scallion Oil Bucatini with Runny Eggs, Spaghetti a la Sassina, Pasta Pizza, and so much more. You must know one or 20 people who would love this book as a holiday gift. So, place your orders now, go to Amazon and search for Anything's Possible. All right, let's get into it.

• 3:03Dan Pashman?

  One subject we've covered here on The Sporkful a number of times is how anti-fat bias impacts people in all kinds of ways. When I talked with fat activist Aubrey Gordon, she described the backlash she's received just by writing about being fat in the world. I spoke with another writer, Lindy West, at a diner in New York City in 2017. She had this to say about the feeling of always being watched when she eats.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  You have to be sort of demonstrating and performing your penance. Like, you have to be ostentatiously eating salad in public at all times and going to the gym and posting on Instagram about going to the gym, except also, when you go to the gym, people are mean to you because it's not real. Like, you can try as hard as you can to be a good, the good kind of fat person, and they still hate you.

• 3:47Dan Pashman?

  The fight for fat acceptance really formalized in the 1970s, when groups began holding rallies, demonstrating in public, and getting media attention. Like this 60-minute story from that time.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  A while back, we heard that a group of fat Americans were planning to hold a convention in Washington. The National Association to Aid Fat Americans, they call themselves. 150 fat people, most of them female, from all across the country, come together in a kind of consciousness-raising session. Most people in society do not like me because I am fat.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  Within the past two months, I have been the unwilling participant of a verbal attack. I was in the supermarket one day, and a woman was in line behind me. She said to me, you know, she says, "You have such a pretty face. Do you enjoy being fat?" I said, "I work very hard at it. It took me a long time to get this right."

• 4:37Speaker 05

  I really think that...

• 4:38Dan Pashman?

  Through the 80s and 90s, fat activist groups continued to organize. They called for equal rights for fat people in all areas of life. They spoke out against very real fat bias nearly everywhere in society. In medicine, studies have shown that physicians often give short shrift to fat patients, assuming their weight is the cause of the issue in question, and too quickly telling a patient to lose weight before trying to understand why the patient is fat in the first place. There's lots of evidence of discrimination in employment, too. Fat people are less likely to be hired and, on average, are paid less for the same work. In the media and culture, there are countless examples of fat people being made the butt of jokes or portrayed as undesirable. And we should note that all of these issues persist today.

• 5:20Dan Pashman?

  In the 90s and 2000s, fat activists moved online, and a new generation coined the term "body positivity." It was based on the idea that just by being a fat person online, posting photos of yourself in everyday ways, you'd normalize fatness and promote a safe space for fat people to be themselves. Over time, the body positivity movement would coin the phrase "love yourself at any size." And yet, as fat activism and body positivity have broadened and changed, rifts have emerged. There's one group that views the goal more as social reform, fighting broad systemic issues that affect fat people. There's another group that's more focused on self-help and personal acceptance, encouraging people to feel good about their own bodies. Today, we'll hear the story of one person who found herself at the center of these tangled

• 6:05Dan Pashman?

  perspectives.

• 6:08Dan Pashman?

  Gabriella Lascano is a fashion and beauty influencer and public speaker. Earlier this year, she published a video op-ed for The New York Times called "Confessions of a Former Body Positivity Influencer." I wanted to have her on to talk about her experience in the body positivity movement and what made her leave. Gabriella was born and raised in the Bronx. Her interests in fashion and beauty started at a young age.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  My mom, my grandma, my great-grandma, they're all very glamorous women, so I was in that kind of environment where it's like, you don't leave without your lipstick, without your earrings, just very, you know, put together.

• 6:40Dan Pashman?

  Growing up, Gabriella always had a bigger body, but when she was young, she never felt stigmatized by her family.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  My mom was very adamant about telling me that I was beautiful no matter what, not to let that stuff bother me. You know, even when kids would bully a little bit or tease, I was always very confident and bold and just naturally loud and outspoken. So, I never felt too ostracized or different. I just thought, some people are a little bigger, like, that's life.

• 7:08Dan Pashman?

  But Gabriella says her health was also always a priority.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I always cared about my health, and I was a dancer. I was in drama club, like, I'm a singer. So, I was always active growing up. Health was an important thing in my household. I grew up, you know, not eating fast food, no soda, no, you know, even at night, if I wanted cereal, my mom was like, "Okay, just a little bit, only..." You know what I mean? Like, there was always some form of, I don't wanna say restriction, but there was an element of health involved in everything, you know? No over-the-top junk food and stuff like that. My mom was very Puerto Rican, rice and beans, chicken, and broccoli.

• 7:45Dan Pashman?

  There was a point where your mom took you to Weight Watchers.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. As I got older, that definitely started, I think, maybe when puberty started, you know, that's when beauty and dressing flattering and things like that come into play. So, there was definitely moments of being told, you know, I needed to eat less or go, you know, I got put on Weight Watchers, got taken to Lucia Roberts, the whole kind of POV, growing up fat in the 2000s.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:14Dan Pashman?

  Gabriella had dreams of becoming an actress or a singer, but she says at a certain point, she realized her body didn't fit the mold.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  I wanted to be, you know, like, the next Beyoncé. I came to this conclusion that, mm, I don't know if that's really gonna happen, but I wanna get as close to it as I can. And becoming a makeup artist was kind of my foot in the door into that industry.

• 8:37Dan Pashman?

  In 2010, Gabriella was 19 in college. She started working for Sephora and MAC. She also did freelance makeup for celebrities. She began posting makeup tutorials online, and she got a good response.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so to start off this makeup tutorial, we're gonna do skincare. So, I'm gonna use the Pixie Skin Treats Glow Tonic to go white. I'm just gonna...

• 8:55Dan Pashman?

  After a few years, people started asking her about fashion, too.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Because I'm in the videos wearing clothes, and then it starts to become like, where are you shopping? So, then I started posting haul videos, which is like, I think, what I became known for later.

• 9:08Dan Pashman?

  Sorry, I'm an old, you'll have to translate for me.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Like, clothing hauls, so like, this is what I bought.

• 9:12Dan Pashman?

  H-A-U-L.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  H-A-U, yes.

• 9:13Dan Pashman?

  Okay, I thought H-A-L-L. I'm like, what are you, you're in a hall?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  In a hallway, in a dark room. That sounds like fun, actually.

• 9:19Dan Pashman?

  So, you would post your clothing haul from a shopping trip? Got it.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:22Dan Pashman?

  Thank you for humoring me.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Got you. Especially because back then, there wasn't as many plus-size options. And so, I was kind of teaching, like, here's how I shop at this store, even though they don't have plus-size, or like, here's the sizing for this as a reference. And then blogging was a thing at the time, too. So, it all kind of started to come together as a fashion beauty.

• 9:44Dan Pashman?

  It sounds, though, like you, there was no point where you set out and said, "I'm gonna join the body positivity movement."

• 9:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:50Dan Pashman?

  It was more like the movement found you.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Yes. Thank you for saying that, because I think that's something that's lost in the conversation. I didn't become an influencer. Like, that wasn't a thing when I started making content, right? I wanted to help women like me. I wanted to share knowledge and have fun. It was just a fun thing to do. And I didn't even know what body positivity was until the mid 2010s, when that kind of conversation started to come up on Tumblr and stuff like that. But there was no such thing as influencer. It kind of just evolved into it. Creating content became, okay, you're an influencer now. And, yeah, it did kind of just find me.

• 10:28Dan Pashman?

  So, how did this movement find her? Well, of course, a big part of it was the rise of social media and all of its algorithms, which sent people interested in similar content to Gabriella. More and more people were drawn to the idea that people should love themselves at any size, and that just showing fat people is making a statement about inclusion and equality. And then, as that interest grew, mainstream media and big brands started embracing body positivity, seeing its rise as a business opportunity.

• 10:54Speaker 06

  Razor company Gillette is making waves with a photo that it tweeted out. No doubt you've seen the photo when you're a Facebook feed of a plus-size model on the beach in a bikini. This morning, Sports Illustrated is showing off its models for the annual swimsuit issue.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  Advertisement in the magazine is also grabbing eyes for this spot for swimsuits for all. It shows a plus size model, 27 year old Asha Graham. She really has a, if you've got it, flaunted attitude. She's a size 14 to 16.

• 11:19Dan Pashman?

  Around this time, Gabriella saw a change in her followers.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  I think it was maybe, if I had to say, maybe 2014 to 2016 is when I started to notice that shift where comments were about, oh, you give me so much confidence. You're inspiring me. It was less like, oh, I love that lipstick. It was like, you are mattering to me because of what you do. And I was like, oh, okay, this is impactful. Like, this is, this is hitting the core of who I am, which is to help people, right? Like, I know how hard it can be when you feel different, feel ostracized, when you feel like the only whatever in the room. And to find community is what we're all looking for. That kind of made me realize there was more there that I could, could do. There was more impact to be made through making content, connecting with my audience.

• 12:07Dan Pashman?

  As it started to grow, as the body positivity movement started to grow, as social media grew and being an influencer became a thing, it sounds like there was a point where you did start to make income from this.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, of course. Um, and it was, it was cool. Like, oh, I get to play with clothes and makeup and make money off of it. That's super cool.

• 12:26Dan Pashman?

  So brands would pay you to showcase their products? So they would give you free, you got free products, I assume?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, of course. PR, anything from like getting a free massage.

• 12:35Dan Pashman?

  And then other people are just paying, paying essentially for a sponsorship and the...

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yes, like pay you this amount to make this content.

• 12:41Dan Pashman?

  Right, right.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:43Dan Pashman?

  Did that get to the point where there was enough income that that was your job, your full-time job?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, for sure. Uh, yeah, I think around, I want to say 2017 is when I started to feel like I was able to do that full-time and that was, that was my job, yeah.

• 13:04Dan Pashman?

  And how did that feel when you got to that point?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I mean, it's amazing. It's like a dream. Like, when I was a kid, I wanted to be like Samantha Jones, you know? I was like, I want to be red carpets and doing all these cool things and I did it.

• 13:17Dan Pashman?

  Gabriella started making headlines in the press, getting featured in magazines.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Sometimes I, I sit back and I'm like, whoa, this is really cool. Especially being a New Yorker, you know, we talk about people coming here for the dream and how much that means, but it's even more special, I feel, when you're from here and you're from the hood and you're like, you see New York City or Manhattan as this other world, even though it's still your city, but it's, it can definitely feel like another world and to feel like I made it in my own city, it's like, that's so cool.

• 13:51Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Gabriella begins to see changes in her online community and in her own body. Stick around.

• 14:04Dan Pashman?

  And now, a delicious word from our sponsors. It's very good.

• 14:11Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done. The odors and stains have to be tackled and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it. And let me tell you, family of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry.

• 14:56Dan Pashman?

  So we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear. All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. Boar's Head brings to the deli the taste of deep fried turkey. Look, whether or not you've had deep fried turkey, I think you can probably understand that it's amazing. But making it is also a massive production. That's why Boar's Head now presents the Friar's Turkey Breast. One bite and flavor takes over. Perfectly seasoned, deliciously golden fried. A backyard tradition, available at the deli only from Boar's Head. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 15:43Dan Pashman?

  Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket. And it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket and probably a new one, because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 16:28Dan Pashman?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was The Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 16:49Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. Last week, we shared our live show from Little Island in Manhattan where I was joined by reporter Eliza Rothstein, who traveled to Bulgaria to try to figure out why that entire country is obsessed with yogurt.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  The first night I was in Bulgaria, I stumbled into a restaurant and I met the owner. And like many Bulgarians, he has a bone to pick.

• 17:14Speaker 06

  All the people in the world think that yogurt is Greek, but originally it's from Bulgaria. But we have bad advertisement, so all the people think that yogurt is Greek, but no, Bulgarian, and that's how you can make angry Bulgarian.

• 17:29Dan Pashman?

  That's right, Eliza, that's how you can make angry Bulgarian. Yes, that is how you make angry Bulgarian. In fact, Bulgarians are so into yogurt, they have a museum of yogurt. And yet, you walk the supermarket aisles in America, what do you see? Greek yogurt everywhere. Bulgarians are getting trounced by their neighbors to the south. So how did Greek yogurt win out over Bulgarian? We share that story and we talked to one Bulgarian American who's trying to change everything. That one's up now, check it out. Also, a quick reminder that I am interviewing chef Alon Shaya at the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan on Sunday, October 11th. We'll be talking about his new book, Memories of a Good Meal: Recipes of Resilience Inspired by Stories of World War II Survival. Get tickets and info at sporkful.com/live.

• 18:15Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's get back now to my conversation with Gabriella Liscano. As Gabriella's profile grew and she became known as a body positivity influencer, she amassed more and more followers and she felt like she was really helping people. But about 10 years in, things for her started to change.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I definitely felt like I was gaining weight and it wasn't until maybe around the COVID era where I was home and I'm looking at myself and I'm like, whoa, who, what's happening here? I started to notice this shift and I think for me personally, I do remember being a part of what I felt was like an echo chamber of I don't have to care about my health and I lost sight of it. I definitely came to a point where I wasn't happy and I was still making my content and just wearing the clothes that I was normally wearing for years weren't fitting, it wasn't fitting me the same. I wasn't comfortable anymore and I got to the point where I was uncomfortable walking

• 19:14Speaker 01

  or wearing heels or couldn't zip something up. And, and those are noticeable changes that you can't ignore. So for me, I definitely was sitting back thinking, okay, where, how did we get from, I'm happy in my body, I love myself at any size, and like now I'm miserable, I'm too big to do X, Y, and Z, it's impacting my quality of life. That's where I ended up.

• 19:35Dan Pashman?

  As Gabriella said in her New York Times video, this feeling led to a bigger realization.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  I started to wonder if loving myself at any size had become an excuse to ignore how big I was getting. Like, it was a lot of positivity, a lot of love yourself and you can do anything you want and, and that was great. But then I started to hear a lot of extreme rhetoric about doctors are lying to you. If you're a kid, your teachers are lying to you, like, don't let them weigh you at the doctor's office. Science isn't real, the BMI is racist, like just so much rhetoric that I was like, whoa. And, and don't get me wrong, there might be some truth there, right? We, we acknowledge that there is...

• 20:15Dan Pashman?

  There are issues with the way fat people are treated by doctors.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Of course, 100%. That is 100% true. But then there was also just so much extremism around people pursuing health and pursuing weight loss that just felt so ostracizing and patronizing and condescending and just mean spirited.

• 20:35Dan Pashman?

  In other words, there was an increased awareness of anti-fat bias in science and medicine, which was based on legitimate issues. But as Gabriella sees it, some in the movement took these concerns too far, crossing into an anti-science mentality. So if a body positivity influencer went public about choosing to lose weight, they often faced a backlash.

• 20:54Speaker 05

  I hate to tell you this, but actively not wanting to be fat is indeed fat phobic.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  So intentional weight loss, so you purposely saying, I want to lose 20 pounds, is fat phobic.

• 21:08Dan Pashman?

  To Gabriella, the movement that was supposed to be about loving your body at any size was now coming after people who lost weight. It seemed hypocritical to accept them only when they were bigger.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is the antithesis to the community I was a part of.

• 21:22Dan Pashman?

  Of course, social media elevates the most extreme voices, so it's a little hard to tell how widespread this mentality was. But it was definitely there and Gabriella wasn't the only one who felt it. In 2024, the New York Times profiled body positivity influencers who lost weight. Some spoke about it openly to their followers, others said little, but posted pictures of their changing bodies. All of them received backlash from their online fans. And this attitude also seeped into pop culture. This morning, Kelly Clarkson facing criticism after revealing she's taking a prescription medication for weight loss. Fans quickly taking to social media, several accusing her of not telling... The full truth. Lizzo was speaking out after fans speculated that she used Ozempic to lose weight.

• 22:04Dan Pashman?

  The reaction to that admission sparking questions this morning. Is there judgment around weight loss? Gabriela saw and felt all of this. At the same time, her weight was really starting to affect her quality of life. She decided that she wanted to lose weight and that she was going to tell her followers about it. You know, I've been on a weight loss journey this year and I'm doing Weight Watchers. I lost 20 pounds and then I gained back like eight. Now I'm back down 20 pounds lost, so I'm trying to lose even more by the end of the year. So let me show you what I eat in a day.

• 22:39Dan Pashman?

  Another reason Gabriela decided to lose weight was because of what happened to one of her friends. Jamie Lopez was the owner of Baby Doll Beauty Couture, a plus-size salon in Las Vegas.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  So Jamie and I met, I think it was 2017, uh, maybe 2016. She like started a plus-size salon and she had like clothing and she wanted to make up. She was like me in a lot of ways. And so she flew me to Vegas and we became like really, really good friends. And she really supported me, really believed in me, just became someone that I could really look to for inspiration and I cared about her deeply.

• 23:16Dan Pashman?

  Jamie went on to star in a reality show about her salon. The show also featured her as she lost 400 pounds in a year. Jamie posted videos about losing weight while hinting at the backlash she was worried about.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  I've decided to make some drastic changes in my life, you guys. But don't nobody come for me, okay? Cause I have not forgot about my big girls. Just don't do that.

• 23:41Dan Pashman?

  In 2022, Jamie was getting ready to film season two of her reality show when she died suddenly. According to TMZ, her death was a result of heart complications. She was 37.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  And she obviously struggled with her, with her weight and her health. And in late 2022, she passed away.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  You think it's been so long and you'll be fine and then.

• 24:09Dan Pashman?

  You can take a minute if you want.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  I always felt very alone. My brother was born when I was 16, so I grew up alone and I always wanted like a sibling. I always looked for friends and Jamie just felt like a sister that I never had, you know? Like an older sister. I do have a younger sister. Don't be mad at me, Valerie. Older sister.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  And so knowing how much she wanted to accomplish, knowing how much she wanted to help people, how much she was impacting, you know, the community. And then knowing that that work now would be done because she's not here anymore. It was just like, it was really devastating, especially because I didn't have anyone to talk to about it.

• 24:56Dan Pashman?

  Seeing her friend die from a health-related event, Gabriela felt angry at herself and the online community.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  I actually feel kind of guilty for being a part of this movement.

• 25:07Dan Pashman?

  So in 2023, she posted a raw and emotional video on TikTok.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  I'm not saying that every fat person is unhealthy. Hello, I'm fat. I'm not claiming that you gotta hate fat people. That's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. But let's be fucking for real. Health is real. Organs failing is real. Diabetes, heart disease, all that shit is real, okay? It's not fatphobic to care about your health. I really just, I think I was just coming from a place of so much emotion and fear because my friend passed away and getting older, you know, having influencer friends and just friends in general who also experience issues health-wise. And so I just wanted to say, hey, if you are feeling like what you're hearing is scaring you

• 25:57Speaker 01

  and it's too much, just know you're not wrong for caring about your health. It's not fatphobic.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Being healthy and, and taking care of your body is not an indictment on you. You're not a bad person. You don't hate fat people.

• 26:15Dan Pashman?

  When you posted that video and you started speaking out more forcefully on these issues that were concerning to you, some portion of your fans and followers felt betrayed.

• 26:27Dan Pashman?

  Like unpack that for me. Where do you think that feeling of betrayal is coming from?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  I think people feel betrayed because there's a sense of safety that someone in the world is moving in a way that you can look to, to follow and to say, okay, they can do it, so, so can I.

• 26:52Dan Pashman?

  You, you mean in terms of like accept, self, acceptance, self-love? But for them to then feel betrayed? Because I think it sounds like from your perspective, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like from your perspective, choosing to lose weight, if that's what someone chooses to do, to try to lose weight, can also be an expression of self-love and self-acceptance.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 27:13Dan Pashman?

  But the way it came across or the way it was interpreted by some of your followers was that after having preached self-acceptance for so long, choosing to try to lose weight was an abandonment of self-acceptance when you were fatter.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:33Dan Pashman?

  When Gabriela was hit with the anger and disappointment of so many of her fans.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  I was like, oh my God, like, am I that terrible of a, of a person? Like, it was a lot. It was a lot to deal with. Like, I was literally suicidal after that happened. It was the first time in my life that I was so depressed because I couldn't believe how hurt people were by me.

• 27:59Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Gabriela and I discuss whether the different approaches to fat activism can be reconciled. And I ask her how she feels about her body today. Stick around.

• 28:13Speaker 07

  It's time to open up a can of advertisements.

• 28:18Speaker 07

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange-traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.

• 29:01Speaker 07

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Broker Services LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 29:18Speaker 04

  Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets, and more. No new tools, no extra logins, just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Make work less work. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 29:47Speaker 05

  Confidence. It's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 30:22Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back. Gabriela shared that viral TikTok in 2023. The next year, she gave a TED Talk titled, Can You Love Your Body and Still Want to Change It? Then, earlier this year, she made that video for the New York Times about her experiences. All this has made her one of the more prominent voices speaking out against what she sees as a growing extremism in the fat acceptance movement. As we said earlier, the different wings of this movement see it in different ways. There are those who are focused outward. They want to fight for collective social change. And those who are focused more inward, they want to help people accept their own bodies. But it can get complicated. According to Tigress Osborne from the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, some activists do embrace body positivity as a gateway to the fat acceptance movement, which focuses on social change.

• 31:07Dan Pashman?

  Other activists say that since body positivity was embraced by corporations, it's become meaningless. And laid out these different approaches for Gabriela.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's definitely some validity to that.

• 31:21Dan Pashman?

  From what I'm understanding from reading more about this is that, like, from your perspective, you feel like I got into this movement, it was super positive. I was having a positive impact on other people's lives. And then something in the movement changed and it became more radical. And, and that was what you were responding to. Those who viewed it from the beginning as it more of a political movement for social change, their perspective might be more, we started this thing to address these big societal issues and then influencers came in and turned it into this more lovey dovey positive thing that then corporations glommed on to when you see body positivity commercials and, and then

• 32:02Dan Pashman?

  and then corporations are sponsoring, sponsoring the influencers and the influencers are making money off it. And so it's interesting to me that I think from your perspective, the movement started as one thing and then was changed. And from their perspective, it might be that the movement started in, in the opposite, on the other, on the other side of the coin. So I guess I'm curious, your reaction to this idea that like this was a political movement that influencers changed rather than the other way around?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  I guess because I felt adopted by it. I did have a more simplistic view, right? And I think I fall more into that like personal view of it category. I support whatever changes and however we can help the community and, and of course, fight stigmas and change systems that take advantage or disenfranchise people who, you know, are suffering, right? And that's, I feel that way about anything. I'm a Latina from the hood. Like, I think it's very obvious, especially how I post and what I talk about, where I stand. No, there's no, I don't have fear about that. So for me, I.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  I never got involved to that extent where I saw my body as political. Like, that's just not how I view myself. And I would never want anyone to feel like I came in to try to co-opt their movement or ruin any advancements that they're making on that side of things.

• 33:35Dan Pashman?

  When Gabriella chose to lose weight, she didn't mean it as some kind of rejection of body positivity as a whole. It was a personal choice made for personal reasons. She feels like, shouldn't she be able to make that choice or any choice about her own body without being criticized? As I said to her, I'd hope that these two branches of the body positivity movement, self-acceptance and social change, can coexist.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  100% agree. Because the change that we make individually does lead to bigger changes, right? It snowballs and you don't know how you could affect someone who wants to be more of an activist, right? I might be making fashion videos and that might inspire someone to become an activist. And now they're doing work that, you know, is more on that side of things, right? And so, we can all, we all have our place in the system. We all have our environment and space to make change. We don't all have to be making change in the same way.

• 34:30Dan Pashman?

  It's been three years since Gabriella posted her TikTok taking issue with those who criticize people for losing weight. She says she's lost a lot of her paid influencer work since then, especially with plus-sized fashion brands. But she's still a creator and storyteller.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  I still get comments once in a blue if I talk about anything body positive. And, you know, all the comments are positive and then here comes one person, "Oh, well, you turn your back on us, so how can you talk about this?" And it's like, how can you not understand where it's coming from? Like, I'm still plus-sized.

• 34:58Dan Pashman?

  When a body positivity influencer who has a real following decides to try to lose weight through whatever method, do you think that they owe it to their followers to say that they're trying to do it and to say how and why?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  No. I think that that's a personal journey. And I don't think anyone really is owed anything in that, in that way. Because that is such a sensitive journey. And the same way that, again, body positive and fat liberationists talk about the mental health issues with being fat, the same goes for having to lose weight if there's a reason for it, if there's an uncomfortability in your body, if there's whatever reason. I mean, I know people that have had to lose weight because they have PCOS and they couldn't conceive and they kept having miscarriages. That is extremely traumatic, right?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  So, how could I then co-sign them being bullied for losing weight? Or them having to talk about it and now share, "Oh yeah, I've had five miscarriages, that's why I had to lose weight." That's something so personal that how could I say they have to tell their followers that everyone has to do what's best for their mental health? And we're gonna say mental health is important, it's important for everyone, not just the people you agree with.

• 36:19Dan Pashman?

  I think that makes a lot of sense. From reading up on this and some of the opinions in this sphere, I think there are some people who would say, like, if you're an influencer, especially if you've gotten to a point that you're making money off of being an influencer, presumably, like, you've grown that following by being honest with your community and, and being real. And so you have built up this following that now looks to you and you're making money off of that following. And so if you then make some kind of a change that directly relates to your topic of, that your content focuses on, that you should continue to be honest about that, about what's going on.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  And I can see that 100%. I think that's a sound correlation or judgment to make. I think, though, for me, my rebuttal would be, I don't see myself as someone who's just where I'm at because I'm fat. I'm not just a fat person. I, I have an identity that is so full and that is one little part of who I am. I'm not just a woman, I'm not just fat, I'm not just Latina, I'm not just a TED speaker, I'm not just a content creator. I'm all of those things at once. I've made content from traveling to food to personal growth. I've done story times, I've talked about paranormal things.

• 37:43Dan Pashman?

  And even if you choose to lose weight, that package isn't changing. Like, that person isn't changing. And if you choose to keep something private, that should still be okay.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  And listen, that's your prerogative, right? I hear people say, "Oh, if I follow someone who gets married, I unfollow them. I don't want bridal content." Sometimes people have kids and they lose followers. Sometimes people lose weight and they lose followers, right? I'm okay with that. I just, I'm not okay with being considered a bad person for it. That's my issue. No one has to be forced to be inundated with content they don't want to see. That's the beautiful thing about the unfollow button. But I don't berate people and I don't harass people about it. I'm a grown woman who's been making content for 15 years. I'm not gonna stay the same. Starting content at 19 to now being 35, I'm gonna be a different person at different times. You might come back in five years and I'll be thinner or I'll gain weight, I don't know, maybe I'll have a kid, who knows?

• 38:37Dan Pashman?

  Five years is a long time.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Who knows? I stay for the ride, though. Could be cool, I don't know.

• 38:42Dan Pashman?

  How do you feel about your body today?

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I'm, like I said, I'm 35 and I'm like, you know, you start noticing things that are a little different. And it's like, I don't know, it's like, cool. You're like, oh, I'm like actually a human and like changing and that's weird and like, but I also really love myself because I'm like, oh, I could have been in a different place if I hadn't made the changes I made. And I want to make these changes or, I'm, I'm, I'm happy when I'm productive and when I'm doing things that make me feel good and when I can walk a little bit further or a little bit longer or I'm not as out of breath or I can travel and not need a seatbelt extender. Those are the things that I'm like, I feel so accomplished with that. I love myself, I really do.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And I'm proud of who I am, I'm proud of what I've done and I'm, I look at my body and I'm like, you got through some real hard stuff and that's amazing.

• 39:37Dan Pashman?

  Is there a way to love your body while still wanting to change it?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  I think so, because you have to love every version of yourself that, you don't, maybe you don't have to love everything, but I think maybe appreciate and be grateful is maybe the, the sentiment for me is like, to really appreciate myself and love the experience of being alive and the opportunity and the blessing to change things that I want to change. Because choosing to make positive changes that are going to lead me to a happier, longer life is the biggest self-love I can give myself.

• 40:24Dan Pashman?

  That's Gabriella Lescano. You can find her @GabriellaLescano on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Next week on the show, I talk with cookbook authors Priya Krishna and Madhur Joffrey about how they've worked to demystify Indian cooking and why Indian food is just as American as anything else. That's next week. While you wait for that one, check out last week's show about the great international yogurt feud taking place right in your supermarket aisle. Why is Greek yogurt everywhere and Bulgarian yogurt almost nowhere? We try to answer that question with help from a Bulgarian choir. That episode's up now. And hey, if you want to hear new episodes of The Sporkful ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM

• 41:02Dan Pashman?

  Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer-

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Andres O'Hara.

• 41:18Dan Pashman?

  It was edited by- Camille Stanley. Our technical director is- Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 41:30Speaker 05

  And I'm Holly Rosby in Cleveland, Ohio, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 41:51Speaker 07

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange-traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.

• 42:35Speaker 07

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC, member NYSE, SIPC. This podcast is supported by Nurtec ODT. Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So, when migraine takes your time, take Nurtec. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtec can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days.

• 43:16Speaker 07

  Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtec is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtec ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTEC or visit nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.