Jocko Podcast 17: Band of Brothers, Losing the Fight Going Down Swinging, Jocko/Echo Backstory

0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:33 - Book Review, "Beyond Band of Brothers", by Dick Winters 1:17:24 - Rough Transitions 1:25:30 - Jocko Podcast and Onnit Stuff 1:28:24 - Is Extreme Ownership the same as Apologizing? 1:33:04 - Can you be a "straight shooter" and not be a Jerk? 1:42:21 - Jocko's #1 Philosophical lesson from Jiu Jitsu. 1:54:48 - Over-commitment to a wrong opinion. 1:58:55 - What brought Jocko and Echo together. The back story. 2:22:41 - Losing a fight, but going down swinging. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast Number 17 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  It's been 10 years since April 2nd, 2006.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  10 years since those of us in 4th Platoon huddled around the radio outside of an Iraqi army post near Camp Ramadi, trying to make sense of the confused and uncertain radio traffic. Of the XO's calm and firm voice from the COC, trying to determine what truck had been hit and who was missing.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  10 years since we drove the road back towards the GOV Center with fear in our minds and hate in our hearts, knowing we had lost close friends but not yet sure of the names.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  10 years since I met my platoon commander on the darkened steps of the GOV Center as he came down from the COC and confirmed which truck it had been. And when I pressed for who was gone, he simply said, "All of them."

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  We hadn't yet learned that one guy who was a fucking hard ass, who wasn't going to let death take another Marine that day, and whose recovery has been an inspiration to all those men who know him.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  10 years since I did my best to pass the word to my team with steadfastness, but repeating "All of them," revealing me for the 21-year-old I was, through the tears I was trying to hold back.

• 1:48Jocko Willink?

  10 years of trying to figure out what their sacrifice meant, of shifting views on what it was all for in the end. That is something that is still a struggle, but I've found solace and purpose in these facts.

• 2:08Jocko Willink?

  Staff Sergeant Eric McIntosh, Corporal Scott Procopio, Lance Corporal Kun, Young, Kim, and Hospitalman Giovanni Padilla, were men who chose to be part of something bigger than themselves. Men who chose to enter a profession of crushingly hard work, sacrifice, and danger, all for the simple purpose of protecting the men around them.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  Staff Sergeant Mac was the epitome of a fighting Marine. A stud who exuded proficiency and professionalism, while also being humorous and approachable.

• 2:50Jocko Willink?

  Procopio is without a doubt one of the finest men I have ever had the fortune of meeting. A beast of a Marine who drove all around him with his enthusiasm and good nature. While we were peers, I looked up to him and his natural leadership. I still do.

• 3:09Jocko Willink?

  Kim had a quiet reliability about him. Unlike the usual loud gregariousness that people tend to associate with grunts, he was low-key and dependable. And for some reason, I can still see the way a smile would creep over his face when stupid shit was going on and he'd laugh in a way that made it seem like he was seeing a deeper joke that you didn't get yet.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  Doc Padilla was new to the company. And my memories of him are vague. But the men who knew him better describe a young corpsman who was enthusiastic about his job. The funny thing with corpsman is that sometimes you don't need to know much to judge their character, besides the fact that these young men volunteered for one specific duty: to save the lives of their Marines in combat.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  A more honorable calling is hard to find.

• 4:09Jocko Willink?

  It's easy for today to be dark, to get sucked into the trap of loss, regret, depression, and anger. It's easy to drown it in liquor, under the pretense of "having one for the boys."

• 4:26Jocko Willink?

  But this morning, as we prepare ourselves to face the tenth of these days, we think of Scott and his booming laugh.

• 4:35Jocko Willink?

  He wouldn't want us sitting around mourning like saps, wasting our precious days, burdened with his death, like tormented widows out of some 19th-century romance fiction.

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  He'd remind us that we all joined up for the same reasons.

• 4:53Jocko Willink?

  We are infantry Marines. We wanted to fight, to energetically meet the enemy in battle and crush him. To serve beside men with whom we would build a bond stronger than most will ever know.

• 5:09Jocko Willink?

  While the politics are complicated and the outcomes unclear, one thing is certain:

• 5:18Jocko Willink?

  Their sacrifice was not in vain.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  As it was the sacrifice that warriors make for each other. April 2nd is a day that defines us now, brings us together as brothers.

• 5:34Jocko Willink?

  It is a day of remembrance and reflection. A day that gives us reason to look at our lives and say, "Look, you son of a bitch, this is why you have to live life to the fullest. This is why you must fight every day to be a better man."

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  And then we must just remember that Scott Procopio would call you a pussy for doing the opposite.

• 6:07Jocko Willink?

  Semper Fi, gents.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  We will never forget you.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  So that was a post that someone forwarded to me that was on Reddit.

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  And it was from an anonymous Marine. Obviously, this Marine was from the 38 Marines who we served with in Ramadi, who were just outstanding warriors. And I thought that that tribute, not only to the fallen, but also a form of counsel to his fellow Marines.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  I just thought that that was an amazing piece of writing, and I wanted to share it with everyone.

• 7:10Jocko Willink?

  April 2nd.

• 7:15Jocko Willink?

  Now, speaking of Ramadi, which, you know, just like this Marine, it's something that I think about all the time, and something that I refer back to. And a couple podcasts ago, we talked about the Band of Brothers, the first of the 506th, who we also served with in Ramadi. And it is a truly hallowed unit. And if you've seen the HBO mini-series, Band of Brothers, just a fantastic memorial and representation of these American fighting

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  men. And the leader of that group, or one of the leaders of Easy Company and then of the battalion, was a guy by the name of Major Dick Winters. And he wrote, after he became famous, really, from the first book by Steven Ambrose called Band of Brothers, and then the mini-series came out called Band of Brothers, he wrote a book, which is called Beyond Band of Brothers: The War Memoirs of Major Dick Winters.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  And I got to this book, basically because I was gonna do Band of Brothers, the Stephen Ambrose. But as everybody knows, or if you don't know, I like to get the source material from the people that were there. Stephen Ambrose is a historian, and so I identified this book. As I was researching more deeply into Band of Brothers, I very quickly found this book, ordered it, and... Yeah, there's no doubt. So... Let me kick this off.

• 9:28Jocko Willink?

  "As Battalion Operations Officer, Hester pointed to where an enemy machine gun was located and approximately where a four-gun battery of 105s was situated. That was all he knew. Captain Hester turned to me and said, 'There's fire along that hedge road there. Take care of it.' That was the sum of my orders. No detailed battle plan, no intelligence summary, nothing but a specific task to be accomplished without delay. Easy Company's mission was to silence the battery." And we talk about the basic principles of combat. One of them is simple, clear, concise. There you go. That's your orders. There's fire along that hedge road, take care of it.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  And this is also, obviously, an unbelievable example of decentralized command. "You go solve this problem." And his response is, "I got it." Back to the book. "Conducting a mental estimate of the situation, I viewed any infantry assault on the battery as a high-risk opportunity since our air forces had failed to destroy the artillery battery in the preliminary bombardment prior to the seaborne invasion. Our key would be initiative, an immediate appraisal of the situation, skillful use of the terrain, and our ability to destroy one gun at a time." So you'll notice, he's gonna, he's, as soon as he knows that there's multiple guns, what does he decide to do? One gun at a time, solve one problem at a time.

• 10:56Jocko Willink?

  A little something we like to call prioritize and execute.

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  The first thing I did was have everybody drop all equipment except ammunition and grenades. For that was all we would need if things went from good to bad. So get rid of the things you don't need. Focus on this one task that we've got right now. That's another prioritize and execute order right there.

• 11:19Jocko Willink?

  While the non-commissioned officers prepared the men for the assault, I conducted a hasty reconnaissance of the enemy position. A leader gains an advantage in combat if he's able to appraise the terrain and the situation quickly and correctly. Crawling along the hedgerow, I moved to a position where I could get a better view of the enemy position. The guns appeared to be set in the trench in the hedgerow, covered by machine gun fire from across an open pasture. The battery was firing directly down Causeway Number Two in the direction of Utah Beach, where the initial waves of the 4th Infantry Division were already landing. So you've got these German guns in an elevated position, hammering Utah Beach, where the 4th Infantry Division is trying to land right now. It's a nightmare.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  Anticipating that it would be too costly to conduct a frontal attack across an open field, I determined our chances of success would be greatly enhanced if we could hit the enemy on the flank and silence one gun at a time.

• 12:21Jocko Willink?

  Hit the enemy on the flank. Again, these are basic principles. And I hate calling, I hate using the word "basic", because it's fundamentals. There's nothing basic about it. It's basic, but it's beautiful. Beautiful in its simplicity.

• 12:38Jocko Willink?

  Returning to the company, I assigned specific missions to each man. So everybody knows what their task is gonna be. First, I placed one of Easy Company's two machine guns in a position where they could provide covering fire as we moved carefully into position. Cover and move. Cover and move. Next, I divided our detachment into two units, one led by Lieutenant Buck Compton, and the other remaining with me. Compton moved down one hedgerow with Sergeant Garnier and Malarky to get as close to the first gun in the battery as possible while I led my unit down a parallel hedgerow.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Compton also sent Sergeants Lipton and Rainey to a concealed position to put flanking fire on the enemy while my detachment crawled across the open field to approach the gun first. So you've got multiple cover and move situations going on right now. And again, to the military folks that are listening to this, you could breeze through this description and miss how important that is, how important and what a great example of cover and move this is. Got to put down that cover fire. You've got to put down that cover fire and that's why you've got to bring them heavy weapons out there. Bring those AWs out, boys. Lots of them. When my group, back to the book, when my group consisting of Corporal Joe Toy, PFC Robert

• 14:01Jocko Willink?

  Popeye-Win, and Private Gerald Lorraine from Regimental Headquarters reached the hedge that led to the enemy position, we stopped. Here I placed a second machine gun to engage the first gun that was firing point blank at us. I gave the gunner instructions not to fire unless he saw a definite target so he would not give away his position. Then we worked our way up to Compton's hedgerow. Here I spotted a German helmet and squeezed off two rounds. Later I found a pool of blood at this position, but no Jerry. And Jerry is a term for German. Next I sent Compton with two men along the hedge to throw hand grenades at the enemy position while the rest of us supported him with covering fire. These guys don't do anything without covering fire.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  I fired occasionally to fill spots when there was a lull in the covering fire due to putting in new clips. Compton took too long getting his detachment into position and we spent more ammunition than we should have, but in return, we received no enemy fire. So that covering fire, even though it took too long, but they didn't receive any enemy fire because they were laying down that fire. They were laying down that covering fire. Just as Compton was ready to hurl his grenades, I started across the field with the rest of the assault team. So we jumped into the position together as the grenades exploded. Simultaneously, we heard additional grenades at the next position. In return, we received substantial small arms fire and grenades from the enemy.

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  As we approached the first gun, Popeye-Win was hit in the butt and fell down in the trench. Rather than complaining that he was hit, he apologized. "I'm sorry Lieutenant, I goofed, I goofed, I'm sorry."

• 15:44Jocko Willink?

  My God, it's beautiful when you think of a guy who is so dedicated to his company that he apologizes for getting hit. Now here was a soldier, hit by enemy fire in Normandy on D-Day, behind German lines, and he's more upset that he let his buddies down than he was concerned with his own injury. Popeye's action. Popeye's actions spoke for all of us. Now, I'm fast-forwarding a little bit to they get these, they get these guns taken down. With the entire battery now destroyed, we now withdrew because the machine gun fire that we were receiving from the manor house and other positions remained intense.

• 16:28Jocko Willink?

  I pulled our own machine guns out first, then the riflemen. I was last to leave, and as I was leaving, I took a final look down the trench, and there was one wounded Jerry trying to put a machine gun onto, into operation. I drilled him through the head. On our way back, I came across War Officer J.G. Andrew Hill, who had been killed working his way up to help us. In all, we had suffered four dead, six wounded, and we had inflicted fifteen dead and twelve captured enemy. German forces in the vicinity of the battery had outnumbered, had numbered about fifty. About three hours passed since I had received the order to dispose of the battery.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  And then, so they, they take care of that, they conduct some other smaller operations, and then it goes to the, sort of the end of D-Day. At long last, D-Day was over. Our success had been to superb leadership at all levels, and the training we had experienced prior to the invasion. Add luck to the equation, and easy company comprised a formidable team. On reflection, we were highly charged. We knew what to do, and we conducted ourselves as part of a well-oiled machine. Because we were so intimate with each other, I knew the strengths of each of my troopers.

• 17:52Jocko Willink?

  This is something that he refers back to a lot, was really understanding his men, what they were like, what drove them, what their strengths and weaknesses were, so he could put them in the correct positions.

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  Evening allowed us a few minutes of quiet reflection. With our outposts in place, I stretched out to catch a few hours of sleep, even though the rattle of German small arms fire continued throughout the night.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  Before I dozed off, I did not forget to get on my knees and thank God for helping me live through this day, and to ask His help on D+1. I would live this war one day at a time, and I promised myself that if I survived, I would find a small farm somewhere in Pennsylvania countryside, and spend the remainder of my life in quiet and peace.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 18:56Jocko Willink?

  you're gonna, as you, as you hear about Dick Winters, and that's, I, I wanted to cover at least one engagement, one actual engagement, and that's, that's one of them, so you can kind of see the methodology, the, the principles that he's putting into action. But, you know, I want to concentrate not so much on the action now, but more on the leadership, the leadership pieces of it. Although there'll still be, um, I still do talk about some of the, some of the combat situations that they get into, because

• 19:27Jocko Willink?

  they were in a war. But I want to check in going back a little bit from where he came from, what his mindset, what developed it. And he, he says this, "I had a wonderful mother, very conservative. She came from a Mennonite family, but never converted to that faith. Honesty and discipline were driven into my head from day one."

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  At some point, am I just gonna have to stop, like, even accenting these things? These common themes that are just run through these,

• 20:05Jocko Willink?

  these leaders?

• 20:07Jocko Willink?

  Not surprisingly, mother was undoubtedly one of the most influential people in my life. A mother takes a child, she nurtures him, she instills discipline, and she teaches respect. My, this is, my mother was the first one up every morning. She prepared breakfast for my sister Anne and me, and she was the last one to bed every evening. In many respects, she was the ideal company commander. And subconsciously, I'm sure I patterned my own leadership abilities on this remarkable woman. So it's interesting, he, all he talked about was that she was the first one to work and

• 20:52Jocko Willink?

  she was the last one to leave work, meaning she was the first one up in the morning and she was the last one to leave. And with that statement alone, he said that she's the ideal company commander. Now, for those of you that aren't in the military, a company commander is, is, there's several companies in a battalion, there could be three, maybe four, maybe even five, depending on the task organization, but it's, it's a hundred, maybe a hundred and fifty guys generally in a, in a company. So, he's saying that this, that his mom would be a ideal company commander. Why? Because she wakes up early and has a lot of discipline. Newsflash.

• 21:30Jocko Willink?

  Now, speaking of, yeah, I won't read any more actions, here's another action. "I positioned men on both sides of the road and prepared to move out in order to secure the intersection." So here they are, on a move, they gotta secure an intersection. "Lieutenant Welsh led first platoon at the head of the company column. Precisely on schedule, I hollered, 'Welsh, move out!' Just as the attack started, a German machine gun located in a building at the foot of the hill started to fire up the road. The German gun crew was in perfect position, at the perfect time, to wipe out our entire attack.

• 22:10Jocko Willink?

  From the left-hand side of the road, Welsh pushed six men towards the intersection. They went straight at that intersection and the enemy machine gun. The enemy fire, however, was very effective. Our men on both sides of the road kept low profiles in the ditches, heads down, and they froze in place, leaving Welsh and his six men assaulting the intersection alone."

• 22:36Jocko Willink?

  To my rear, Colonel Strayer and his staff, including Captain Hester and Nixon, could see what was happening. They in turn were hollering at me, "Get them moving, winners, get them moving."

• 22:49Jocko Willink?

  I struggled out of my harness to rid myself of excess equipment so that I could run, since it was obvious what needed to be done. So guess what, people aren't moving, people aren't taking action, and it's obvious to him what needs to be done. Standing in the middle of the column on the right-hand side of the road, I hollered, "Move out, move out." This did no good, everyone had his heads down.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  This was the one and only time in the war that I really blew my top and physically kicked ass. I came out of that ditch with only my M1 in hand, and hollering, I ran to the head of the column, kicked ass on the left side of the road, then ran to the right side of the road, back and forth, screaming at my top of my voice, "Get going." I will never forget the surprise and fear on those faces looking up at me. With me running around on the road like a wild man, the machine gunners seemed to zero in on me. I was a wide-open target. The bullets snapped by and glanced off the road all around me. For a short, short time, I had the feeling of being blessed. That feeling didn't last too long, for I was to find out in a few minutes that I wasn't so blessed.

• 24:02Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I highlighted that section right there, because in the next, literally the next page in the book, you know, you get this idea, and again, this is, this is the idea that people have of military leaders, is that they're these hard-ass guys and these kick-ass guys that are running around and yelling like, "What I just read."

• 24:21Jocko Willink?

  And I wanted to highlight that, because now we fast-forward one page in the book.

• 24:30Jocko Willink?

  In taking the intersection, Easy Company sustained ten casualties. Among our wounded were Sergeant Lipton, Ed Tipper, and Burr Smith. Another casualty was Private Albert Blythe, who was in the aid station, sitting with his back against the wall when I entered to have my wound cleaned. Because, by the way, Major Winters got hit. And so he's in there getting his wound cleaned. Now, he's looking at Private Blythe, and he says here, "I did not notice any wounds." So I asked, "How are you doing, Blythe?" "I can't see, I can't see," he replied. I remember trying to comfort him by saying, "It's okay, Blythe, relax.

• 25:14Jocko Willink?

  They'll have you out of here soon, and they'll send you back to England." As I started to move away, Blythe stood up suddenly, saying, "I'm okay, I'm okay, I can see now." As soon as Blythe regained his vision, he immediately returned to duty. If you think about that for a minute, that boy had been paralyzed by fear. Yet he had the guts and dedication to stick to his buddies in Easy Company. As soon as he relaxed and pulled himself together, he returned to the front, rather than taking the easy way out with an evacuation. Sometimes, all a soldier needed was a calm voice reassuring him that everything was fine.

• 25:58Jocko Willink?

  In Bryce Case, he rejoined the Company, and was wounded in action during the upcoming fight. After World War II, he served in the 187th Airborne Regiment in the Korean War, where he was awarded a Silver Star and the Bronze Star. By the time he retired from military service, Blythe was a Company First Sergeant. So the contrast there is that, you know, instead of pulling a General George Patton and slapping the guy around and saying, "You're not wounded." He realized what he needed to do, which was just comfort the guy. And say, "Hey, listen, everything's gonna be alright. We'll get you on a plane, we'll get you back to England. Just, just take it easy."

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  Here's a section that I'm just gonna jump to quickly. When he's talking about the confusion getting in. The confusion getting our men into position was as bad as we were to ever see. One time I found Easy Company troops firing into troops of another battalion. Later, we had some tanks show up for support. And they began firing into our own line.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  So that's blue on blue, fratricide. And, you know, we talk about it in our book. And. It's one of those things that. They usually don't show it. They usually don't portray it. Because it's hard to believe that things can get that confusing. But they do.

• 27:26Jocko Willink?

  And it goes all the way back.

• 27:30Jocko Willink?

  And clear example right there.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  Now we're going back to Blythe and this is. An interesting commentary on training. On one of our daylight patrols led by Sergeant Garnier. Blythe was point man when he spotted a German sniper in a tree. Just as he did in training. He automatically said bang bang. Instead of dropping to the side of the road and putting his rifle on the sniper. So if you can imagine you're back. In America or when they were doing their pre-uh. Attack training in England and they weren't using real bullets. So they're out on a patrol and if they saw something, they go bang bang.

• 28:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's literally what the guy did. The German reacted first and shot Blythe through the collarbone. The rest of the patrol recovered Blythe. And then withdrew to Easy's lines. So. Again. Military people that are listening, law enforcement. You train how you fight. Hmm. And you fight how you train. So you've just gotta keep that in mind all the time. If you're giving yourself some kind of a training scar. By doing something like a lip gun. We actually did this in SEAL Team. Lip gun. That's what we called it. It's embarrassing. You know, in my early days, that's what we would have a choice. Like what you make sound? Like bang bang, yeah. Your mouth. Yeah. Thing.

• 28:56Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, thankfully now they have, you know, unbelievable good systems. You know, the paintball type systems that go in our real guns, the laser tag type systems. So we don't have to use lip guns.

• 29:14Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Next sector. Success breeds confidence and Easy Company's success in Normandy instilled the confidence that they would need to succeed and live to fight another day. At the same time, I could not help but think that had I trained the men harder. If I had done a better job. Maybe more of my men would have come home.

• 29:42Jocko Willink?

  That's something a leader is always gonna be thinking. Always gonna be thinking that. What could we have done better? What could I have done better? Now they they get back to England. They're taking a break. They get pulled off the line and he's back in Al- in Aldbourne. And he's just talking about he's sort of reflecting back on his initial push into Europe.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  And you know, you got guys that are out drinking and doing whatever they're doing. And he says, "As for myself, I relaxed the best I could." Combat had made me tense, particularly since my decisions now meant life or death to the members of my command. Commanding soldiers in combat requires a personal detachment from the men themselves. In a sense, command is the loneliest job in the world.

• 30:40Jocko Willink?

  Looking at myself in the mirror. I could see how much I had changed. I could sense it.

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  Another thing that affected me was the importance of discipline. The necessity of instilling discipline in my troops and getting the job done in combat.

• 31:02Jocko Willink?

  In an attempt to escape the tension that combat had caused, I developed a heavier than usual exercise regimen. And I attended church on a regular basis. There were only a few days that I didn't run two to three miles, do eighty pushups, sixty situps on a footlocker, and a couple of splits and some leg and trunk exercises after the day's work was over. As a result, I kept in pretty good shape. Not what I'd call wrestling shape, but good enough for army work. Physical activity kept me mentally alert, built my endurance, and kept me supple.

• 31:45Jocko Willink?

  You gotta do it. You gotta have that discipline and you gotta work out. You gotta do it every day.

• 31:53Jocko Willink?

  It's that important.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see how he mentioned how it kept him mentally sharp?

• 31:58Jocko Willink?

  It absolutely does.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said that before, where that's, that's one of the few things that you can do that affects everything else in life, yeah.

• 32:07Jocko Willink?

  You, you are correct.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  I think people, a lot of time in, in regards to exercise, people think, "Well, exercise, that's for a certain kind of person, you know, maybe a fitness person or something like that."

• 32:17Jocko Willink?

  It's for a dumb jock, right? "I'm a smart person, so I'm not gonna exercise." Wrong answer.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think nowadays people are more hip to it, for sure, but, um...

• 32:24Jocko Willink?

  Did you say hip?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Hip, man, yeah, down, down with the cause, the new stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it is, um, it's interesting how these leaders, back then, they knew that.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Even though there's been no, even though at that time there'd been no scientific study, there are scientific studies now that prove it. He didn't know that, he just knew it.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he felt it, he lived it.

• 32:47Jocko Willink?

  He lived it.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  Now, they're in a, uh, position now, again, I'm just fast forwarding, and even though I said I wasn't gonna cover too much of the combat, I'm covering the combat. Because the combat is what, is what puts these people in these leadership positions.

• 33:05Jocko Willink?

  Lead, combat is the ultimate teacher, the harshest teacher. And it teaches you lessons that you do not forget.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  So they're around this village of Foy, which is a village that was held by the Germans and they'd been waiting. And it'd been, it'd been awhile.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  And here's Winters talking about, here's Winters talking about his troops. "They were now completely exhausted. They had had no hot food, little sleep, no rest, constant tension and the pressure of combat.

• 33:46Jocko Willink?

  The worst time was night, when temperatures plummeted and fog covered the battlefield until mid to late morning. The uncertainty of what lay just yards ahead in the next treeline was sufficient to break ordinary men. Not surprisingly, the men became physically exhausted.

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  Physical exhaustion leads to mental exhaustion, which in turn causes men to lose discipline. Loss of self-discipline then produces combat fatigue.

• 34:20Jocko Willink?

  Self-discipline keeps a soldier doing his job.

• 34:25Jocko Willink?

  Without it, he loses his pride and he loses the importance of self-respect in the eyes of his fellow soldiers. It is pride that keeps a soldier going and keeps him in the fight.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  This is what I feared I would lose: the loss of will to measure up to my men.

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  After seeing others break down, you wondered who was next and you started taking a hard look at yourself.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  I often wondered why I didn't break under the strain of combat.

• 35:02Jocko Willink?

  One factor undoubtedly lay in the fact that my battalion headquarters lay seventy-five yards behind the forward foxholes. No longer was I under enemy observation. Consequently, I was able to concentrate on my duties without fear of enemy small arms fire. Another factor was undoubtedly my physical conditioning.

• 35:25Jocko Willink?

  I don't think there was a man in the battalion who was in better physical shape than I was. My responsibility to ensure the safety of the soldiers also hardened me to cope with the daily stress of combat."

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  One last observation on combat fatigue. When you see a man break, he usually slams his helmet down and messes up his hair. I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious, but a soldier goes to his head and massages his head, shakes it, and then he's gone. You can talk to him all you want, but he cannot hear you. When he reaches that point, the best thing for everybody is just to let him take a walk. Combat exhaustion occurs instantaneously. You don't plan to become a combat fatigue casualty.

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  How do you prevent combat fatigue? You talk to your troops and make some excuse to pull a soldier off the front line. Of course, pulling a soldier off the front line increases the stress of those who remain, but is a necessary trade-off. I often asked a soldier whom I saw on the verge of a breakdown, "How about coming back with me to the CP to help out for a couple of days?" In this manner, you invent a reason for pulling a guy from the line without damaging his psyche.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  So, a bunch of stuff there on combat fatigue. And I'm not saying that you're gonna see combat fatigue in the civilian world. I mean, but you do see people get stressed out in business. And I thought that, that comment about people messing up their hair and grabbing their head, that's a really good indicator of when people are breaking. And I'll tell you, one of the things, this is something that we talk about in the book as well is, for us, the guys that had the most resistance to combat fatigue were the guys that were most integrally involved in the planning of the operations.

• 37:34Jocko Willink?

  Because they felt like they had some control. And unfortunately for us, we didn't know this. So we had guys that weren't involved, like, you know, maybe they were a new guy, or maybe they just weren't that involved in the planning or whatever. So all they were getting told was like, "Hey, get your gear on, you're going out again."

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:50Jocko Willink?

  "Come back from that operation, hey, get your gear on, going out again." "Come back from that operation, hey, get your gear on, you're going out again." Those guys that didn't really get involved in the planning, it was harder for them. Because they didn't feel like they had any control. And they didn't see the risk mitigation that was happening. And they didn't understand the strategy well enough. Why? Because I didn't tell them. My fault. You know? I should have been more engaged with them. I should have explained to them the impact that they were having. I should have explained to them the overall strategic picture. And I tried to do that and I thought I did it, but I didn't do it well enough.

• 38:17Jocko Willink?

  And those are the guys that definitely were the most stressed out.

• 38:22Jocko Willink?

  So, leaders out there? It's just another reason. It's another reason to tell people why they're doing what they're doing. And get them involved in the planning. And get them ownership of the planning. So that they feel like they have some control over it.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Interesting how he, how they mentioned how they dealt with that when they'd pull them off the line, right?

• 38:42Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  But they wouldn't just be like, straight up, straight dope. "Hey, you're messing up. Get off the line."

• 38:47Jocko Willink?

  Nope.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  It was like, they pu- pulled them off the line in a way that wouldn't, wouldn't mess them up, you know?

• 38:52Jocko Willink?

  "Hey, we need you to take care of the supply issue. Can you go back there for me and get this figured out?" "Yeah, okay, I'll do it." Give them a break. Give them a rest. There's something Hackworth talked about too. I mean, Hackworth says, um, you know, about face, you know? He talks about, he just says, "Hey, everyone's got a cup. A certain sized cup." Some people have a bigger cup than others. But when the cup gets filled up, that's it. They're done. And if you let the cup get filled up and overflow, then they're done forever. But if you can catch it beforehand, they can go back a little bit and drain their cup out.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  But that's exactly what you talk about when you say, you say manipulation, right? Like how you, you tell them?

• 39:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Just in a kind of a gingerly kind of way? You know, to make them, make them signed on to the whole situation?

• 39:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, no doubt about it.

• 39:37Jocko Willink?

  This is going back to his discipline.

• 39:41Jocko Willink?

  "My routine was to shave every morning and then to inspect the line." "In res- in retrospect, shaving in the bitter cold was pretty ridiculous. But the practice had originated with one of my first meetings with Colonel Sink. At Tacowa, Sink had required us to shave every morning. He said, 'You shave every morning for the men. And if you want to, shave every evening for the women. But that's up to you. But I want you to set an example.'"

• 40:13Jocko Willink?

  He was absolutely right. I remember one morning when we prepared for our attack on Foy. I got up in the middle of the night to shave before getting something to eat. In the process, I cut myself up pretty badly. I must have looked like hell. When Colonel Sink arrived to check on us before the attack commenced, he took one look at me and had a huge smile on his face. I later, I realized later that he was laughing at me for shaving on that bitterly cold morning. But that was one of the things I did to set an example for the men. Shave in the morning, and once in a while I would strip to the waist and give myself a French wash. A routine that caught everyone's attention. I did this for one reason and one reason only.

• 40:58Jocko Willink?

  To get the men's attention and to let them know that I was going to be around for a while and this wasn't as bad as they thought it was going to be. Make the best of it.

• 41:10Jocko Willink?

  And what I like about that is his total awareness. His total awareness of the impact that he's having on his men. He knows that they are watching them. If you're in a leadership position, you've gotta recognize that people are watching you.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Parents.

• 41:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, if you're a parent, you gotta realize that that person that you're leading called your child, they're watching you.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. It's more critical than, most of the time anyway, than what you say. So, you know, and people will make this excuse, kind of this saying that they say, "Hey, do what I say, not what I do. Meanwhile, you're doing all this stuff." It's not, that's not how. They're gonna, they're gonna be like, "Oh, that's just something you say. Meanwhile, this is how you do it, apparently."

• 41:51Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Mom and dad are doing it this way. That's the way it's done, regardless of what they say.

• 41:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Jocko Willink?

  You gotta do the right thing and people are watching you. When you're in a leadership position, you are being watched. You are being emulated.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:08Jocko Willink?

  Your emotions are being mimicked. You don't know that. You might not sense that, but your emotions are being mimicked. You get into a panic mode, you're gonna have a bunch of people panicking.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:22Jocko Willink?

  You stay calm, your people are gonna stay calm. You get crazy, your people are gonna go crazy. Your people are watching you, so set the good example. And one of the premier examples he's setting is he's maintaining the discipline.

• 42:38Jocko Willink?

  Now, this actually section, I don't, it's, it's very interesting because we had, I had made a comment on the podcast about, hey, what do you do, someone asked, what do you do if you get told to do something and you don't believe in it? Right. And, you know, I went through a big gray area and said, look, you know, there's, there's some gray area there. Yeah. And if it's just something small that you get asked to do, and you just, if you decide you're gonna lay down the law right now and bang your fist on the table and say, "I'm not going to do that," well, then you're gonna get fired. Right. And now someone else is gonna have to come in there and do that thing that you've been asked to do. And I had one person on Twitter that kinda went back and forth with me, and, you know,

• 43:22Jocko Willink?

  uh, he said, "Hey, it does make an impact when you walk away." And I agreed with him. I said, "Yes, I, no, I, I'm not trying to say it doesn't make an impact when you walk away, cuz it certainly does." But, there's cases where it has more of an impact if you stay. Mm-hmm. And you stay in the game. So this is an example right here, a pretty shocking example. Because we have a guy that's 100% on board and is, you know, a straight-shooting guy that listens to his chain of command. And here's what happens. Colonel Bob Sink was a magnificent commander, but this time, he had had a little too much

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  to drink, and his order to dispatch another patrol to capture additional prisoners did not make sense. We'd already captured sufficient prisoners for interrogation. A second patrol would only result in casualties for no apparent reason. Further exacerbating the situation was freshly-fallen snow along the river that had quickly turned to ice during the day. If I followed Colonel Sink's order, the enemy would've heard us coming a long way off. What to do? I responded, "Yes, sir." And then promptly ignored the order.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  So, he's doing what I was basically, what I was saying. Like, if he just said, "No, sir, we're not gonna do that," guess what? He's gonna get fired. And now we're gonna get someone else put in charge. And even if he doesn't get fired, he's hurting his reputation. So, i- it's a bad situation. But what he decides to do is go, "Got it, sir. We'll take care of it." And then he promptly ignores the order. To, now back to the book. "To give the impression of compliance, however, I assembled the men in a building and told them we are not going to send out this patrol because I did not think it was feasible. I also informed them that my neck was in a noose if anyone ever said anything about it.

• 45:32Jocko Willink?

  With that, the men lay down and caught some much-needed sleep and I took the radio and adjusted mortar and artillery fire on my supposed objective."

• 45:42Jocko Willink?

  And here's his, here's his thoughts on it. "On reflection, I did exactly the right thing and I have never had any regrets. There was insufficient time for preparation. The field to our front was wide open and I would've lost too many men for no purpose.

• 46:00Jocko Willink?

  I wonder what I would've done had I been a career officer concerned about my own future. Would I have compromised my beliefs? The deliberate disobedience of a lawful order by my commanding officer presented an ethical dilemma of the first magnitude."

• 46:23Jocko Willink?

  But, you can see it's a guy who's staying on his principles. And his principles were to accomplish the mission, take care of his men. And he's weighing those things, those things aren't black and white. Those things are not black and white. Because you look at all the times he did do operations and missions and taskings where his guys got wounded and killed. But he saw what the purpose was. And now he sees something where there's no purpose and he says, "You know what? Not gonna do it." But he doesn't tell the boss, he just doesn't execute it. So, and you know, there's stories of SEALs in Vietnam doing that. And I heard that from, from the Vietnam SEALs would tell me, hey, if they got directed to do something that they didn't think was a good mission, I've talked about this before.

• 47:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we're gonna go, you want us to go three kilometers away and set up an ambush on this river? That's in really tough enemy controlled areas and we don't know what the intelligence is on who's gonna come down that river? Okay, cool. And they'd patrol 200 meters out the gate, set up a little perimeter, right close to camp where there's no, no problems. Smoke a couple cigarettes, spend a few hours out there, walk back, yeah, hey, nothing happened. No one came down the river.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  I would think you'd have to be pretty responsible though, if you're gonna kinda exercise that course of action. Otherwise you get someone who's just like, nope, nope, don't feel like it, don't feel like it.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's, it's obviously something that a guy like Dick Winters did very rarely. And the SEALs in Vietnam, it's not like they were blowing missions off all the time.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:49Jocko Willink?

  But they, you know, like I said, if, if something comes up where you completely disagree with it, but you don't disagree with it to the point where you wanna, you wanna make a, make a stand that's gonna make you get fired or now you're not supporting your guys anymore.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, okay, cool, you kept them alive that night, well, who's coming in to take your place?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  That's the question, who's coming in to take your place? And you don't know who that is.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:15Jocko Willink?

  And what's their best interest gonna be? Cause whoever comes in to take your place is gonna be a company guy that's gonna be, you know, he's gonna be a guy that's gonna obey every last direct order from the guy. And this is, you know, it's, it's strange too, I mean, here I am, I'm a, I mean, I was a, a, as, as motivated it to be in the military as I could possibly be. You know, so I'm not sitting here calling for mutiny from guys.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  But I am telling you to use common sense.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:44Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta put common sense on top of everything. And sometimes common sense outweighs orders, that's just the way it is. It's rare. And I said this last time as well, it's rare. It's not like you're getting these crazy orders from up the chain of command. People aren't, people aren't advancing in the military because they're, cause they're idiots, right?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's not like they're not on your team.

• 49:04Jocko Willink?

  And it's not like they want you to get killed.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 49:06Jocko Willink?

  And, and you know, maybe, you know, in this case, he could've gone, given some pushback and said, hey, you know what? Boss, here's what's going on, there's fresh snow, it's, they're gonna hear us coming a mile away. We don't have good cover to the front, this is not a good operation. But maybe he heard the tone of the Colonel's voice and just said, hey, this guy, if I say that and then I don't do it. Or if I say that, it's gonna make me suspicious. So you know what? I got it, sir. And then don't do it. Just a judge, a judge, a judgment of character.

• 49:36Jocko Willink?

  But that's what you've got writing on you when you're in a leadership position.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:39Jocko Willink?

  You've got those guys' lives. And that should be more important to you than anything. And it's, it's a strange dichotomy of leadership. Because, on the one hand, you're trained your whole military career that you gotta take care of your men, take care of your people. That's something you get trained on since day one. Take care of your team. And the dichotomy of that is, you're gonna do missions where you could very well be sending your men to their death. So there's a massive dichotomy there. And how do you deal with the dichotomy? You find the balance. And the balance is not a cookie cutter response. The balance is different for each scenario that you're in.

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  And how well you can weigh those opposing forces

• 50:30Jocko Willink?

  is a, is a measure of what kind of leader you are.

• 50:36Jocko Willink?

  That's what makes leadership hard.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 50:43Jocko Willink?

  we're getting to, they've, they've moved through Europe. And now we're about to go from war to something even more evil. Which is the concentration camps, the death camps.

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  So back to the book.

• 51:07Jocko Willink?

  As they enter, this is back to the book, as they enter the, their death camps for the first time.

• 51:14Jocko Willink?

  "The horror of what we observed remains with each paratrooper to this day. You could not explain it. You could not describe it. And you could not exaggerate it. It did not take long to realize that the Nazis were intent on eliminating all the Jews, Gypsies, and anyone who disagreed with Hitler's regime."

• 51:38Jocko Willink?

  The memory of starved, dazed men who dropped their eyes and heads when we looked at them through the chain-linked fence, in the same manner that a beaten, mistreated dog would cringe, left a mark on all of us, forever.

• 51:54Jocko Willink?

  Nor could you underestimate the barbarity of the Nazi regime, even during the latter stages of the war.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  As I went through the war, it was natural to ask myself, "Why am I here? Why am I putting up with the freezing cold, the constant rain, and the loss of so many comrades? Does anybody care? A soldier faces death on a daily basis, and his life is one of misery and deprivation. He is cold. He suffers from hunger, frequently bordering on starvation.

• 52:36Jocko Willink?

  The impact of seeing those people behind that fence left me saying, if only to myself,

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  "Now I know why I am here. For the first time, I understand what this war is all about."

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  And, obviously, seeing that evil firsthand,

• 53:02Jocko Willink?

  and that's one of the reasons why I think we explore the darkness and the evil on a fairly regular basis, here. And that's why I explore it. That's why my mind is drawn to these things. Because you gotta understand that evil's out there. And it's still here today. And somebody

• 53:29Jocko Willink?

  has gotta take the fight to the enemy.

• 53:37Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 53:39Jocko Willink?

  I'm jumping towards the end of the book and again, it's not really, I'm not giving anything away. I mean, we know how World War II ended.

• 53:49Jocko Willink?

  But this is how

• 53:52Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Winters, or sorry, Major Winters, kind of wraps up their combat.

• 54:00Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. And so, many of the co-veneurs returned home. Yet all would be forever connected by their shared experiences in combat. Over the course of the war, Easy Company alone lost forty-eight men killed and over one hundred wounded, incurring a hundred and fifty percent casualties. This percentage was not uncommon among similar units who had fought in the campaign of Northwest Europe.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  At the peak of its effectiveness, in Holland in October nineteen forty-four and in the Ardennes in January nineteen forty-five, it was as good a rifle company as there was in the world, according to author Stephen E. Ambrose. How so many men survived the campaigns in Normandy, Holland, Bastogne, and Germany was a true testament to their courage, their training, and their discipline under fire.

• 55:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, I want to fast forward a little bit more

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  to

• 55:12Jocko Willink?

  he's done. He's now out of the military. And I know we got a lot of people that listen to the show because a lot of you guys reach out to me and talk about that transition. A lot of people ask me about that transition.

• 55:27Jocko Willink?

  And here's Dick Winters' transition. While I was extremely happy to put the Army behind me, I realized that I was a different man than I was when I joined the Army over four years earlier.

• 55:44Jocko Willink?

  The war had changed me in many ways, as it does all who experience combat.

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  Having witnessed so much mass suffering and the unparalleled barbarism that mankind is capable of inflicting upon itself, I don't see how any survivor can be, ever be cruel to anything again.

• 56:09Jocko Willink?

  In addition, I was a far better judge of character than I had been in 1941. That feeling remains with me today, a full sixty years after the war. When I meet people for the first time and get to know them, I can't help but judge them and size them up. Do they have leadership? Would they be good in combat? Do they pass the test?

• 56:35Jocko Willink?

  I was also more disciplined than I remembered being before I deployed to Europe.

• 56:43Jocko Willink?

  This discipline helped me adapt to civilian life once I returned to Pennsylvania. Like all veterans, I had to adjust to society, the life that you're going to share with others in order to make a living.

• 56:57Jocko Willink?

  I certainly never confused the challenges in the workplace with what I experienced in combat. There would be no life and death struggles in the corporate world. Business hardly equates to war. Such comparisons demean the word.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  And when I read that, I actually had to put myself into check.

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  Because, and I wanted to make sure that I, I'm clear about something. Because something, I, I'm, obviously, we wrote a book that's about comparing business and war.

• 57:33Jocko Willink?

  But I want to make it clear that what we're comparing and what we say is similar, in fact, they're the same, is the principles, the principles of leadership are the same.

• 57:45Jocko Willink?

  The struggles and the challenges and the consequences are not the same. They are not.

• 57:53Jocko Willink?

  So I want to make sure I make that clear.

• 57:59Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 58:02Jocko Willink?

  let's get to some of his reflections on leadership.

• 58:09Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Was I a successful leader? They tell me I was and modesty prevents me from disagreeing with them. I am not so naive that I don't realize the wide appeal of Dick Winters today is based on leadership in combat. I may not have been the best commander, but I always strove to be. My men depended on me to carefully analyze every tactical situation to maximize the resources that I had at my disposal, to think under pressure, and to lead them by personal example. I think it's interesting even here, you know, he's looking back and he's a humble guy.

• 58:50Jocko Willink?

  You know, I may have not been the best combat commander, but I always tried to be. This is a humble man. I am not sure there is such a thing as a natural born leader. Some leaders are born with special aptitudes or talents. But any success I might have had was the product of good upbringing, intense study and preparation, and physical conditioning that set me apart from my peers. Here's Dick Winters, I mean, one of the best kind of combat leaders at the tactical level in the modern era. And he's saying that it was preparation and physical conditioning setting him apart from his peers.

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  I was all, back to the book, I was also surrounded by a group of men who were disciplined and highly trained to accomplish any mission. Add luck to the equation and you can understand that the secret to my success was that somehow I always managed to survive another day.

• 59:50Jocko Willink?

  In recent years, I've been asked to address an increasing number of civic groups, corporate seminars, and governmental agencies on the subject of leadership.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Most are looking for cookie cutter solutions as to what constitutes a successful leader.

• 1:00:10Jocko Willink?

  What is the recipe for success? And this is, this is classic. And, and actually, when, when the book, when, when Leif and I, the book came out, when our book came out, we did a bunch of interviews that got turned into either short articles or video clips. And, and they would, they, they title these things, you know, like, "Three Things Every Leader Must Do", and that's what they always do. Everyone's looking exactly for what he says. Most are looking for cookie cutter solutions to what constitutes a successful leader. What is the recipe for success? In truth, there are no simple solutions. Just as there is no average day in combat. Each situation is different,

• 1:00:54Jocko Willink?

  and each requires a leader to be flexible in adapting his or her particular leadership style to the specific circumstances required to accomplish any mission. It's a matter of adjusting to the individual, and you do this every day. You don't have just one way of treating people. You adjust yourself to whom you are talking.

• 1:01:20Jocko Willink?

  If I were to give advice to a young leader going to war based on my observation of what had constituted the success of the outstanding leaders who comprised the American parachute infantry regiments of World War II, I would offer a series of principles that I am certain would result in great success, regardless of the field endeavor, field of endeavor in which the individual is participating. So here he's saying the same thing that I say, which is, leadership is the same, whether it's in the battlefield or whatever endeavor you're going into, leadership principles stay the same. First and foremost, a leader should strive to be an individual of flawless character, technical competence, and moral courage.

• 1:02:05Jocko Willink?

  If you have character, that means you are the guy, that means the guy you are dealing with can trust you. The men trust you, have faith in you, and they obey you no questions asked. That's character in a nutshell. Character also allows you to make decisions quickly and correctly. "Some may question my decision to disobey a direct order from my commanding officer," this is the story we already talked about, "and to fake another patrol as a violation of that very principle I am advocating. In my heart, however, I could not send my men to risk their lives for no apparent reason

• 1:02:46Jocko Willink?

  when clearly nothing would have been gained that we had not already achieved. Such a course takes a degree of moral courage, which I have found is far rarer than physical courage. Was I correct? In my estimation, I thought so, and I have never regretted my decision." The same holds true for developing leaders of competency. Those entrusted to lead must study their profession to become totally proficient in tactics and technology. Prior to the invasion, I read every tactical manual I could lay my hands on to improve my tactical knowledge and professional competence while other soldiers were out carousing in the pubs.

• 1:03:29Jocko Willink?

  While they were enjoying the social life of the neighboring towns, I was reading and educating myself, getting ready to lead men into combat. Getting smarter. Opening up the books, that's what he was doing. And that's part of leadership, that's part of his characteristics of leadership, is to become knowledgeable, to read and study. He goes on, "Don't waste time attempting to define leadership. No need to go to a dictionary. The infantry school at Fort Benning, Georgia, has defined leadership in just two words via its motto: 'Follow me.'"

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  And, he's gonna do it again, right here.

• 1:04:24Jocko Willink?

  "Physical fitness is another prerequisite for success. I freely admit that I was blessed with a sound physical constitution, but whenever possible, I took the opportunity to improve my physical stamina. Because I was in such good physical shape, I easily survived TECOA." That's their initial training that they went through for airborne. "While men washed out on a daily basis, the contingent from Easy Company that completed the training and earned their wings at Fort Benning were tough as nails. Because I was in such good shape, my fatigue level never reached the point of physical exhaustion that contributes to mental exhaustion and ultimately, to combat fatigue. We all experience sleep deprivation at times. That is the nature of stress.

• 1:05:10Jocko Willink?

  But a physically exhausted leader routinely makes poor decisions in times of crisis."

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  And here he talks about...

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  Another piece. "I have always felt that my principal contribution to the success of both Easy Company and Second Battalion was based on my knowledge of what to expect from each man."

• 1:05:39Jocko Willink?

  Know your people.

• 1:05:42Jocko Willink?

  "Having selected the right men for the right job, I then delegated the authority to my subordinates and allowed them to use their initiative to execute the mission." Decentralized command. Decentralized command. "There is no need to tell someone how to do his job if you have properly trained your team."

• 1:06:08Jocko Willink?

  "Good preparation is always vital to the success of any operation, but leaders must remain flexible once the action commences." Steve Ambrose likes to quote General Eisenhower, who claimed, "Before the battle is joined, plans are everything. Once the battle is joined, however, plans go out the window."

• 1:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Next, I would encourage leaders to take a moment of self-reflection before rushing into important decisions. This is a little bit of detachment. Many leaders don't take the time to consider carefully their decisions or the implications of their actions. In battle, I periodically detached myself mentally from the noises and the chaos of battle. I found it useful to separate myself momentarily and to carefully think through what actions I needed to take to accomplish the mission. Again, I read this book for the first time last week. He's saying detachment straight up. He's saying the exact same.

• 1:07:20Jocko Willink?

  "In battle, I periodically detached myself mentally from the noises and chaos of battle." Hang tough. Never, ever give up regardless of the adversity. If you are a leader, a fellow who other fellows look to, you have got to keep going. I would also urge leaders to remain humble. If you don't worry about who gets the credit, you get a lot more done. Again, this is when people ask me, "What's the most important quality of a leader?", I tell them it's humility.

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Leaders should assume the blame when the operation fails. When it succeeds, credit the men and women in your team. They do the lion's share of the work. And now he's gonna talk about humility a little bit more. "Since the release of the HBO miniseries, many of us have been flooded with hundreds, sometimes thousands of letters from adoring fans across the nation. The attention is certainly flattering and greatly appreciated.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  But it remains better to remember Eisenhower's address at Guildhall Hall on June 12, 1945. To an ecstatic British public, which showered the Supreme Commander with a tumultuous parade through the streets of London, Ike reminded them..."

• 1:09:01Jocko Willink?

  Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives acclaim earned in the blood of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends.

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  I think anybody that's ever been in a leadership position

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  and has been called some kind of hero will think back to that statement. "Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives acclaim earned in the blood of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends."

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  And I think when you

• 1:09:47Jocko Willink?

  use that word "hero", it's something that obviously gets thrown around a lot.

• 1:09:58Jocko Willink?

  And here's what

• 1:10:02Jocko Willink?

  Major Winters had to say about that. "Perhaps the best characterization of what a true hero consists

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  is found in a letter Sergeant Mike Rainey sent me in January 1982 shortly before he went back to the hospital for a series of tests. Historian Stephen Ambrose used the passage to conclude Band of Brothers because Rainey encapsulated the cohesion that became the hallmark of Easy Company.

• 1:10:33Jocko Willink?

  In thinking back on the days of Easy Company, I'm treasuring my remark to a grandson who asked, "Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?"

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  "No," I answered. "But I served in a company of heroes."

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  And I can tell you that I also served with many, many heroes. The guys in Task Unit Bruiser, the guys from 228 Infantry, the guys from 11AD in the Ready First, the soldiers in the Marines.

• 1:11:12Jocko Willink?

  All those brave men.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  And some brave women as well.

• 1:11:26Jocko Willink?

  And to those

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  men and women, those soldiers and Marines that I was lucky enough to serve with, I think that this statement right here

• 1:11:37Jocko Willink?

  from Dick Winters

• 1:11:40Jocko Willink?

  is something that I think is very fitting.

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  "As I look back on the men of Easy Company and the closeness we have enjoyed over the years, I am reminded of the dialogue attributed to a senior German officer bidding farewell to his men in the HBO miniseries. Paraphrasing his words, I would say to Easy Company and the officers and men of the 506 Parachute Infantry Regiment.

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  It has been a long war.

• 1:12:16Jocko Willink?

  It's been a hard war.

• 1:12:21Jocko Willink?

  You have fought bravely, proudly for your country. You are a special group of men connected by a bond that only exists in combat.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  You've shared the incommunicable experience of war and have been tested under extreme adversity. You've shared foxholes and have held each other in dire moments.

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  You've seen death and have suffered together. You've lived in an environment totally incomprehensible to those who do not know war.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  I am proud and deeply honored to have served with every one of you.

• 1:13:06Jocko Willink?

  You all deserve long and happy lives in peace.

• 1:13:12Jocko Willink?

  I bid each of you Godspeed and ask the Almighty to shower His blessings on you and your families now and for generations to come."

• 1:13:24Jocko Willink?

  And that wraps the book and

• 1:13:32Jocko Willink?

  I was thinking after the last podcast that this was going to be a lighter one. And I picked this book specifically because I see Major Dick Winters as an incredible person, incredible leader, a role model for everyone.

• 1:13:53Jocko Willink?

  But because we are talking about war,

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  there is still tragedy and loss and darkness there.

• 1:14:07Jocko Willink?

  And that's okay.

• 1:14:12Jocko Willink?

  And do you vets out there, like the anonymous Marine

• 1:14:19Jocko Willink?

  that wrote that tribute to his brothers from April 2nd?

• 1:14:26Jocko Willink?

  And we know there's hundreds of thousands of veterans that are feeling that every day. And if you're having one of those dark days,

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  it's okay.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  It's okay.

• 1:14:49Jocko Willink?

  It's okay to feel that darkness.

• 1:14:56Jocko Willink?

  And it's okay to remember it and miss it and hate it and love it. And it's okay to wish it never happened

• 1:15:08Jocko Willink?

  and at the same time to wish it never stopped.

• 1:15:15Jocko Willink?

  And it's okay to want to take it all back

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  and at the same time

• 1:15:25Jocko Willink?

  to want to do it all again.

• 1:15:30Jocko Willink?

  And if you've got in your mind that you think that people don't understand,

• 1:15:39Jocko Willink?

  that's okay.

• 1:15:43Jocko Willink?

  They don't.

• 1:15:46Jocko Willink?

  But you do.

• 1:15:50Jocko Willink?

  You know darkness, you know evil.

• 1:15:56Jocko Willink?

  But more important than that,

• 1:16:01Jocko Willink?

  you know good.

• 1:16:05Jocko Willink?

  You know light.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  And you know laughter and love better than anyone.

• 1:16:20Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 1:16:25Jocko Willink?

  Embrace...

• 1:16:29Jocko Willink?

  Embrace that darkness. Own it. Don't look away from it. Don't bury it in booze or in pills. Listen.

• 1:16:41Jocko Willink?

  Listen to what Corporal Scott Procopio would have been saying to you. Live your life. Embrace your life.

• 1:16:54Jocko Willink?

  With physical activity and with nature and with jujitsu and with sun and with laughter and guitar and good memories and creativity and discipline.

• 1:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Discipline yourself.

• 1:17:15Jocko Willink?

  So you can free yourself.

• 1:17:20Jocko Willink?

  And move forward.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  Into the future.

• 1:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Where there's no more darkness and no more war.

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  But peace.

• 1:17:39Jocko Willink?

  Good evening, Echo.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  Little message to the vets out there. I hear from a lot of veterans. And I just wanted to know, I just wanted to let those guys know, you know, kinda where I'm coming from. Get a lot of real positive stuff from guys. And some guys are going through hard times. And I know it. And, you know, I'm hoping to be able to, uh... Kind of spread my thoughts, where I'm at. And how, what I think of these things.

• 1:18:23Jocko Willink?

  Cause, you know, if you get guys like...

• 1:18:28Jocko Willink?

  Major winners that, you know, did everything that he did in war, he came back and, you know, he was able to figure it out. And a lot of those veterans were. And they, you know, he said, it wasn't an easy adaptation that they made. But they made it.

• 1:18:46Jocko Willink?

  They made it.

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  So I think you gotta embrace those things. And...

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  Be stronger than them.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  And I know, and I say it all the time, you gotta know that darkness if you really wanna appreciate the light. And I think the guys that have been to war...

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  They can do that. And life can seem so much better.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Cause you know how bad it can be.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of feedback from people.

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Rough transition right now.

• 1:19:35Jocko Willink?

  But that's what we do here.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  What rough, rough transitions.

• 1:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Rough transitions and you know what? You know what's interesting about the rough transitions? And any vet that's out there that's listening to me right now? Or anybody that's not a vet, that even, anyone that's been through hard times and loss? It's a big rough transition. And you go in and out emotionally. And you know, you'll be feeling like crap one minute. And then the next minute you'll feel okay and you'll be laughing. And that's, that's, oh, like I said, that's okay.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:20:05Jocko Willink?

  I think a lot of people are scared that they might be acting the wrong way.

• 1:20:11Jocko Willink?

  But it's alright.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Jocko Willink?

  It's okay.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just like how you're saying where it may seem like people don't understand and that's okay because they don't. That's so true because can, and this is the way I, I'll think of it because my best friends are, actually they're still in Navy SEALs. Um.

• 1:20:32Jocko Willink?

  So these are, these are guys that you grew up with.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  Grew up with.

• 1:20:35Jocko Willink?

  And spent your whole.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Best friends, they're in my wedding, yeah. Um, so I, a lot of times you know when I talk to them and stuff, I just, in my own head, I kind of imagine what it's like coming back, right? So you kind of consider it, kind of in a nutshell where you consider, hey, what's your biggest problems when, when you're overseas? When you're in the war? What are these big problems you gotta worry about? Okay, and then let's factor that in, okay? Then we come home and then, okay, let's say in the war, your biggest problem is getting shot and dying. Your men getting shot and dying. Right, or you getting both your legs blown off or, or you know, or whatever, whatever the, the, your biggest problem is as far as worrying, worrying about.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Okay, then you come home and I don't know, your girlfriend or your wife is like, hey, I thought I told you to do those dishes and she's flipping out on you.

• 1:21:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  And so in the back of your mind, you're kind of like, okay, wait, the, the comparison, it was two days ago. I was in the desert worried about my legs being blown off and now I'm here where apparently the biggest problem according to my girlfriend and wife.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  The biggest problem on earth.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Apparently because she's yelling at me, she's really mad, she's mad, she won't really talk to me and, or the dishes, yeah. And it's just not computing.

• 1:21:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  You know, and then you go next door and, and their biggest problem is kind of on the same level. So yeah, they don't understand and you in a way, you're living in this crazy world where. I can see how that could kind of get to you and be like, man, am I wrong? Am I, you know?

• 1:22:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so one of the things that I, and you hear me talk about this before, is perspective. And, and wanting to see, I always talk about it from a leadership perspective, like, I want to think about what my superior is thinking. Why is he telling me to do this? Let me get his perspective. And then, what are my, what are my subordinates thinking? What is their perspective? And it's a very useful tool to use in what you're talking about right now. And I remember I had a situation like that, where I was at work, and I forget what was going on, but something was going on. Like, I think we were, we were preparing to deploy guys earlier, or there was something major was going on. There were some major issues, I think it was Afghanistan, and we were getting ready to deploy guys early, and it was a real big spin up and all this stuff.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, literally, I come home, and, and, I mean, I'm, I'm at work, and we're trying to figure out how to put this plan together, and guys are going to deploy, and it's it's, you know, horrible, and, you know, whatever, bunch of stress. I come home, and I go, hey, babe, you know how you're doing? I said to my wife. And she's sitting there, and all of a sudden, she like picks up the phone, and someone calls her, or she, someone calls her, she picks up the phone, and she hangs up, she's like, I can't believe this! And, and I'm just like, I thought something, you know, I thought someone died, or whatever. And I said, I said, what's wrong? What's wrong? And she said, um, it was something along like, "The Wiggles is the same night as Barney," and I booked both tickets, so it was some thing she was taking the kids to.

• 1:23:30Jocko Willink?

  That like, it literally did not matter in any way, shape, or form to me at all, but to her, you know, she had spent twenty-two dollars on these tickets for three kids at the time. At sixty-six dollars, and now she had booked, double booked the children for multiple shows. It was harsh.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  It was dark.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  But what I had to do, is, well, I, you know, I had to go in perspective. In her world, man, that was sixty-six dollars, right?

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Jocko Willink?

  And it was the kids, and it was, they both wanted to see all the shows, or whatever the thing was. So in her perspective, in her part of the world, that's a really big deal.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Jocko Willink?

  And so, that's, I think, something you're gonna do, as a, as a, as a human, always look at what other people's perspectives are. And you know what? If people are pissed off, if your wife's freaking out because you didn't do the dishes, I got some really easy solution to that. Do the dishes. Just do the dishes.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, could be worse.

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  Put on some music and scrub some pots and pans. Let's do this. You know what? I'll scrub some pots and pans. Be happy to. Let's make this happen.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good, man. And that, you know, that if you have the ability and kind of the wherewithal to do that, to, to, really, it's detaching. You're detaching and looking at their situation, not looking at it from your own's personal situation. Um, if you can manage to do that, and I think it helps when someone reminds you, like, just like you, how you say it right now, and maybe someone will be like, hey, you know what, let me, let me go ahead and remember that next time, you know?

• 1:24:56Jocko Willink?

  All this stuff, and I say this to leaders all the time when I go out and work with companies, it, it, it's so much of it is just about awareness.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:02Jocko Willink?

  When you become aware of the problem, you become aware of the mistake, or you become aware of the solution, and it's there in front of you, then it becomes very easy. The problem is, you, people aren't aware of how easy it can be to solve some of these things if you just make this small adjustment to your mentality.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, all you're aware of is the fact that you're freaking steaming, redlining, because for the fifth time, your wife told you to do something when, like I said, you're worrying about your guys getting killed yesterday.

• 1:25:31Jocko Willink?

  Two years ago, yeah. As one of my buddies used to say, when we were coming home from our first deployment, he says, can you believe this? Tomorrow, we're gonna get on an aluminum tube and we're gonna wake up back in San Diego. I was like, okay, man. Take it easy. Take it easy, bro.

• 1:25:52Jocko Willink?

  Uh, all right. And if you want to support this podcast, you can get some supplements from jockofuel.com. You can get some gear and clothing from originusa.com. You can get a bunch of cool t-shirts and whatnot from jockostore.com. And you can check out my leadership consulting company at echelonfront.com. And everything is available at jocko.com.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  While you're online, if you want to check out the Jocko store, you can buy shirts. If you like them.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  And bumper stickers?

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I made some bumper stickers.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you did.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  While Jocko was, uh, not looking. So get one of those, put it on your desk, or your bumper, whatever. Um, and if some people indicated that they wanted to donate, you can donate on JacoStore.com as well.

• 1:26:39Jocko Willink?

  The PayPal thing.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  The PayPal thing, or on JacoPodcast.com as well.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  And click through Amazon. We've got some people posting what they're, what they're buying through Amazon, which is awesome.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Ah, yes. So yeah, if you're shopping on Amazon and you want to support the podcast, um, just click on our link on Amazon. And then do your shopping like you normally would. Here's the thing, I don't know if I told you, this is what I added, cause, uh, my friends on Twitter, the troopers, they, um, a lot of people were indicating that they like the books that you cover. And they're like, hey, let me, you know, get those books. You know what you should do? You should link. You should have the list, the library of books that you've covered, and link them. So guess what I did?

• 1:27:21Jocko Willink?

  Echo's got, Echo makes things happen. That's what I like about it.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Now, now one's on JacoPodcast.com. On the top, I added it on the menu where it says books. It, it just says books, or I don't know, it says books.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  And you click on there to have all the podcast episodes, you know, the book, what podcast episode it was on, you click on it, boom, you can get it.

• 1:27:38Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. Yeah. All right, let's get to some questions.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Okay. Question number one.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Is taking extreme ownership the same as apologizing for failures or apologizing for others' mistakes? I'm having difficulty separating these two concepts when I try to take ownership over failures. Does taking ownership of failure generally include an "I'm sorry, X occurred," etc., etc.?

• 1:28:07Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:28:10Jocko Willink?

  It isn't just apologizing, right? It isn't just saying, "Oh, I apologize if this happened." It's part of it. Part of ownership is apologizing. If you make a mistake, you gotta own it. And generally, you gotta say, "Hey, look, I'm sorry this happened." You gotta own that there's been a problem, or a mistake, or an issue. And that does include other people's mistakes. But you have to literally take ownership of them.

• 1:28:35Jocko Willink?

  You can't say, "Hey, I'm sorry these other people made mistakes." That's not what I'm talking about. And it's, look, the mistakes that were made were actually my fault. And another important thing here is you can't just say, "Hey, guys, it's all my fault." You actually need to mean it, and you need to believe it yourself. You need to believe that you failed in the situation to do the right thing, or make something happen, or make the right decision, or make the right call, or do the right preparation, or whatever it is that you were supposed to do. You need to do that. You need to believe that. You can't just say it. And you say, "These mistakes were my fault. Here's why it was my fault."

• 1:29:20Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, "I'm sorry that these things happened. I apologize for this happening." And some people see "sorry" as a sign of weakness. And honestly, there's some, you know, some legal situations you might be in, or some negotiations that you might be in, where that might be true. But most of the time, especially in a working environment, like inside of a team, sorry's okay. And in fact, an apology is often the first step in moving forward. Right? And it's generally gonna be a little bit of a blow to your ego.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  Now, and that's especially true because you're Mr. Extreme Ownership now, or Mrs. Extreme Ownership. Guess what? That doesn't mean everyone else is. Not yet. They'll get there, but they're not there yet. So you apologize to someone. It's gonna be a big blow to your ego, especially when someone says, "You're damn right that was your fault."

• 1:30:19Jocko Willink?

  That's gonna hurt your ego. You're gonna wanna lash back out, but you can't.

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  Gotta put your ego in check. And you gotta go, "Hey, I understand. It is my fault." You know why I'm saying it's my fault? 'Cause I truly believe it was my fault.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  'Cause it is.

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  'Cause it is your fault.

• 1:30:35Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be careful when someone gloats, don't let that get to your head, um, but that's what you have to do. And it's not just, not just for you that you're doing this, it's because the team.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:45Jocko Willink?

  Because the team has to figure out what the problem is, someone's gotta take ownership of the problem, that's you. And then that's how you get the problem solved. And I'll, and I'll tell you something else.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  And you might have predicted this, but my sorry

• 1:31:01Jocko Willink?

  and my apology comes with something else. Ninety-nine percent of the time.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:31:08Jocko Willink?

  And that's a good.

• 1:31:11Jocko Willink?

  Right? So, look, hey, I'm sorry that this happened, this is my fault, but I'm glad it happened now.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, huh.

• 1:31:18Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know what? I'm glad we made this mistake, we made this mistake right now, it's gonna set us back a little bit, good. Because now we're not gonna make it with a client.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh. This happened, this part of the project fell apart, good, now we can fix it, we know about it. Oh. This went sideways, I missed it, good, I won't let it happen again.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:31:44Jocko Willink?

  Throw yourself a little good on the end of your sorry.

• 1:31:49Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of times those problems or, or mistakes or whatever, they add to that experience, like, the experience of being there, you know? Where, where, let's say you go through a path and you make a wrong turn, now you have that experience that that's a wrong turn, that's what that looks like, that's what that feels like. And guess what, we're gonna avoid that in the future, rather than a bunch of situations where, where, for example, one, in the future where it's more detrimental. Now you don't run into that.

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  You learned.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  You learned, exactly.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  I think I saw a video that said that.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  A beat, good, you learned. Alright. Next question.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Is there a way to be a straight shooter, oh, sorry, is there a way to be straight shooter Jocko? And not be a jerk or piss people off?

• 1:32:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, this is, this is a, a touchy one.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  Because everybody wa- everybody has so much respect for the straight shooter, right? Hey, that guy's a straight shooter, and you wanna be a straight shooter. You don't wanna be someone that, you don't wanna be the opposite. What's the opposite of a straight shooter? That's like a liar.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Right. Deceiver, deception.

• 1:32:59Jocko Willink?

  A deceiver, right? So, of course, we wanna be the straight shooter. Let me tell you, it is very difficult to be a straight shooter with everybody. Even when you have a tremendous relationship with somebody, a tremendous relationship with somebody. Can you really be a straight shooter with them? A true straight shooter. I've been a true straight shooter with probably three or four people in my life.

• 1:33:30Jocko Willink?

  In my life, I've been a straight shooter with maybe three or four people. That's off the top of my head, but I'm just saying it's not a big number. It's gotta be somebody that you are so in sync with.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Man, I'm thinking about that. I don't think that's even possible for me and my situation, even the cause it's hard.

• 1:33:50Jocko Willink?

  To be a straight shooter with people?

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, how can you reconcile being a straight shooter now? Consider what that means, but to be a straight shooter with somebody at all times. You can't really do that, you know?

• 1:34:00Jocko Willink?

  So, so what do we do instead? You gotta use the indirect approach. The indirect approach, and I'm, I'm talking about this all the time. And this is a nuance that people, people, people come out on Podcast 12 and they say, "Hey, I heard you say this," and I, I'm gonna go, remember that question we got asked, you know, uh, "Do you ever get told you're too direct and too intense?" It's like, no, I don't get told that. Because I don't believe in being, trying to be a straight shooter with everybody. What I believe in is trying to get my message across to people so that it gets absorbed by them. And the minute you straight shoot somebody, their defenses go up and it becomes problematic. So, some indirect approaches are when you have these discussions with people.

• 1:34:40Jocko Willink?

  When you use conversation to get your point across, you know, "Hey, I was looking at this and I was wondering what I could do better." "Can you, can you help me?" Or, you know, "What can we do better?" You know, you're throwing the, the "we" on it. Or, you know, then you say something like, "Hey, you know, you've got so much going on right now." "Do you want me to take anything off your plate? You want me to take that thing off your plate that, that's kinda like a small little detail? Do you want me to handle that?" Or, you know, hey, it seems like you're having to micromanage this guy over here. You want me to, you want me to go straighten that out and run that?

• 1:35:14Jocko Willink?

  Or it seems like this guy's taking up too much of your time. You want me to take that over? Or take that person over? Or, you know, what's a good one? Is, hey, can you help me with my team members? I just want to sit down with you and just like have you talk to me about what you see in my team members? And then when you're, you're, you're discussing your team members? And other people, even your peers? And what they do good and bad? But what you're really doing is you're just tossing some things their way. Some little things their way. So that they understand and they, and it's kind of like teaching jujitsu. Right? When you teach, when you teach a move, or teaching anything. When you teach a move, you learn it better. Right?

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  If you make somebody teach a move, they're gonna learn it better. So when you make someone sit down with you and go through the issues that people are having, it actually makes them self-reflect. But they don't know it.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  But they reap the results?

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  They reap the results of it. So that's a, that's a crafty one that I've used a bunch. Um, let's see. Here's a good one. I think I'm letting you down. I don't think I'm doing a good enough job. You know, it's like, I think I'm just...

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Be careful though, with that one seems like if you, if you hit the wrong tone with that one.

• 1:36:32Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be careful with all these. You gotta be tactful.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you can ask some more direct questions. But when you ask the more direct questions, you gotta be sort of, you gotta be true, you gotta be, you gotta come across as being very truthful in your, in your inquisition. So for instance, hey, what was the strategy that you were thinking about over here? Like before this whole thing fell apart? You know, hey, what were you, what were you thinking? Or, hey, what was, what were you thinking about when you put this together? Cause I, I don't quite, I don't quite get it. You gotta be careful. That's another one. You gotta be sensitive. You gotta be careful.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Cause the tone can come off bad.

• 1:37:08Jocko Willink?

  The tone can come off bad. What were you thinking? Right?

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  Right, well, hey, hey, what were you thinking?

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  You gotta, you gotta be soft with these. So it's much better to be indirect in most of these cases.

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  And hopefully you can build relationships with people where you can be more direct or you can get that conversation to be where it needs to be to where you can get the key critical information across, but it's very, very challenging.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Jocko Willink?

  And again, it's not that challenging. It's not impossible. I did it with everybody all the time. I always had got my point across to people.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  Always, you know, and I'll tell you, this is something when I would straight shoot somebody, I would, and this is, if I really needed to straight shoot somebody, I would write them a very lengthy email.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:37:59Jocko Willink?

  To say, hey, here's what's going on. Here's what I'm seeing. And I would really craft it with a lot of patience and, and then I would either do, once I wrote the email, I would either use that, I wouldn't send it, but I'd use it as a guide to myself like, okay, this is the conversation I'm gonna have. Or I'd send it to him for real.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  Like a DL note?

• 1:38:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a DL note. You know, I actually read one of those. I read one of those on, on, on, uh, number five. I think it was number five. That is one of those things that I did. I said, okay, you know what? I gotta help this guy out. Gotta be direct with him. He's making some mistakes. I want him to do better. Here's a little DL note for you. Get you squared away. The thing is, uh, this, this is definitely hard, but it's not impossible. You gotta just have the open mind. You gotta use your tact. You gotta use your judgment and you gotta build relationships and have conversations with people.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  And, and know what your intention is in the conversation and just keep slowly moving in that direction.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  You know what? A tip, and I'm, I'm gonna say this tip because I like when people do it to me, when they're like correcting me or, or whatever, is sprinkle in little comments about the stuff that, that they did right.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's a common practice.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but when you do that though, you add in this, you add in. That's what I like about you. You do this, you know, so it's, you know, so if you add in, that's what I like about you. It kind of individualizes that person like, I'm the guy who does that, you know, that good part. So it gives them that confidence. So it's kind of like, yeah, tell me more kind of, kind of attitude. And then at the end, throwing like something along the lines of like, yeah, good. Thanks, you know, thanks for the time or whatever. And then be like, I got your back.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Kind of leave.

• 1:39:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's all, I mean, we could go over techniques all, all night long. Those are both good ones.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:47Jocko Willink?

  Um, you know, another one is like, hey, listen, I think you can be a top performer here.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:52Jocko Willink?

  I think you're gonna, this is if you're talking to someone that's, you know, like a subordinate. I think you could be a top performer here. There's, here's what you're kicking ass at.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:00Jocko Willink?

  This, this, this, and this, here's this, these two things right here. If we can get these fixed, you're going platinum.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  When we get these things fixed.

• 1:40:08Jocko Willink?

  When we get.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:09Jocko Willink?

  Even more positive. Look at you.

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  I'm, yeah, I'm imagining in the sense of you telling me this in like jujitsu or something, you know? And yeah, it's like Dean used to say like, um, when I'd be like, hey, and I'd ask him this, say, I'm in this position. And, and he'd be like, be like, yeah, then later on, you know, I'd text him or whatever. Hey, thanks for, for going over this with me. He's like, yeah, bro, you know, keep it up and you can be like a world champion. He'd just say that. And I don't know who else he's, he probably says that to everybody. I don't know.

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  He's never said that to me.

• 1:40:37Jocko Willink?

  That's because we hate each other.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  But for that moment, I'm like, hell, yeah, you know, like I hope he corrects me more. I hope he tells me how to do this because he obviously believed, just like how you're saying, you know, you could be a top performer here. Be like, yeah, tell me what else, what can I do? What can I do?

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  And that's, and actually the point that you're making is very good point, which is, um, you know, picture, go into perspective of the other person and what is it going to sound like to them? And that's, that's a smart thing to do. So you're, you're hearing what you would hear if you were them.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Indirect people, be indirect. It's harder, it's challenging, it takes more time, it takes more patience, and it is way more effective.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  Fact.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we talked about how before, like some people, they'll be like, hey, I'm just a, I'm just, I tell it how it is. You know, I tell it how it is. And, and if you don't like it, kind of thing. And all right, go ahead and do that, but see how that works out for you. You know, see how many people follow you, see how many people want to listen to you, see how many people want to be around you even, you know? I like the indirect approach too. Next question. Jocko, what is the number one philosophical lesson that you've learned from jiu-jitsu?

• 1:41:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. So, jiu-jitsu emphasizes so much of what I believe. That it's tough to narrow down, but I will. But I will throw some things out there that kind of are part of jiu-jitsu and are part of what I believe. Um, first of all, what we just talked about, being indirect. And indirect attacks, flanking, that's what you have to do in jiu-jitsu, you have to set things up. You have to detach. You have to detach from the chaos and from the emotional, you cannot get emotional on the mat. Attack the flanks, you gotta hit people where they aren't expecting it, you gotta have a plan, but you gotta be ready to adapt.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  You gotta constantly improve your position.

• 1:42:43Jocko Willink?

  You gotta have fun while you're doing it. You gotta practice being in bad situations, you gotta make your training as realistic as possible. Right? These are all things, I talk about these in all aspects of combat and in business and in life.

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be physically fit so your mind stays sharp. That's, that's true, true in jiu-jitsu, it's true in combat, it's true in life.

• 1:43:09Jocko Willink?

  You gotta know when to tap. Right? You gotta know when to tap, you gotta know when to give up on a single battle. So that you don't lose the whole war.

• 1:43:20Jocko Willink?

  Gotta train for worst-case scenarios, you gotta start with that person on your back. Gotta start with the person with you in an arm lock.

• 1:43:29Jocko Willink?

  And, training for combat, you gotta train for those worst-case scenarios where you're outnumbered, you got a bunkered position and they're shooting paintball at you and you got down men, that's what you gotta do, you gotta train for the worst-case scenarios. And same thing with business, I work with like, sales groups sometimes. And they'll do role-playing. And I'll say, you know, be the worst customer you can possibly be. So that way when this person meets a normal human, they, they know how to knock it out of the park. Here's another one from jiu-jitsu.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  Basically, don't judge a book by its cover. Right? Cause you don't know if the person that you're about to slap is Jeff Glover. Or is Dean Lister?

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  Or Joel Tudor.

• 1:44:10Jocko Willink?

  Or Joel Tudor. You don't know what's gonna happen. So don't judge a book by its cover. Yeah, I mean Dean, you'd be less apt to slap than you would Jeff Glover. I guess that's a good point.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dean, you can kinda judge by the cover.

• 1:44:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the cover's pretty evident. But Jeffy or Joel?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, those guys weigh a hundred and fifty pounds. And, you know, a surfer guy and a, and a, whatever Jeff is, I don't know what genre of human you put Jeff into. But you wouldn't think that he would throw a Darce choke on your face.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:43Jocko Willink?

  Uh. So that's that. Prioritize and execute. In the jujitsu, I mean, we just talked about it fourteen times tonight for combat. Talk about it in business all the time. You gotta make sure that the initiatives that you're running, you don't have thirty-eight initiatives. In jujitsu, guess what? You hear this all the time. You're get, you're about to get choked, you gotta protect your neck.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:45:04Jocko Willink?

  Number one, you gotta protect your neck.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Then you can worry about your leg, and then you can worry about your arm and the hooks and everything else, but you gotta protect the neck. You gotta prioritize.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:13Jocko Willink?

  Gotta keep things simple.

• 1:45:16Jocko Willink?

  You gotta create. You gotta have an open mind.

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be creative and look for different ways to win and different things to do. You gotta make sure you don't get trapped in any ruts. Mentally. Trapped in a rut. This happens to me.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Everybody, I think.

• 1:45:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it happens to me, but I only know what I can tell you about me. And that is I get trapped in ruts with jujitsu.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Where I get, I get stuck in something and I'll just go with one move for a long period of time.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be careful of that. I need to be better about that. Discipline equals freedom.

• 1:45:56Jocko Willink?

  So with jujitsu, the more disciplined you are in training.

• 1:46:01Jocko Willink?

  The more freedom you have on the mat, so the more you train, the more you work, the more you drill, the more you can move, the more you can escape, the more you can create, the more you can finish.

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  And not to mention the fear that it eliminates, because like, you know how like, let's say you're not that disciplined, you take two weeks off. A lot of time when you come back from that two weeks, like you have that added element of nervousness, like dang, am I gonna gas? Or am I gonna get, you know, tapped out in front of everybody when, you know, when, you know, maybe there was a higher expectation on me or something like that.

• 1:46:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I don't have that.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:46:42Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  It's part of it though, for sure.

• 1:46:46Jocko Willink?

  Uh, but I would say the number one philosophical lesson, and I guess it's a philosophical lesson, is the same thing that I learned from combat, and that's humility. And jujitsu is absolutely one of the most humbling experiences in the world. And we've actually, I got people now that have started jujitsu.

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:07Jocko Willink?

  Cause of the podcast, and they say, oh, I just did my first jujitsu class. Damn, that was humbling. It is extremely humbling. You're gonna get beat. You're never gonna know everything. You're always gonna be learning that there's other ways to do things. And somebody that just started can come up with amazing techniques, and that's humbling. And there's other martial arts that have better moves that you need to pay attention to. Like wrestling has better takedowns, like sambo with the leg locks.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:42Jocko Willink?

  And catch wrestling, some of those things that are better moves, and you need to apply those. And guess what? You still need to know how to strike. Because it can be hard to take people down. So you need to know how to, how to strike, and you can't be cocky, and you can't be overconfident. Because the bottom line is in jujitsu, you will get beat.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  And you will get beat by smaller guys, by weaker guys, by older guys. You're gonna get beat. And there's somebody that's better than you.

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't like that, or if your ego doesn't like that, then you gotta find a new game to play.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  Because you need to find a softer game or an easier game because jujitsu is honest.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:38Jocko Willink?

  And you cannot escape that and that's as it should be. And it's of course, this philosophical, this philosophy is something that I definitely carried over to combat and carry over to when I talk to businesses and carry over to life. You can't be overconfident, you can't be overconfident. You're never gonna think you know everything. You have to respect the enemy. That's part of humility. You gotta respect your, if you're not humble, you don't respect your enemy. You don't respect your opponent. You don't respect your competitor.

• 1:49:13Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't, that's when you're gonna get caught. So to me, humility is the most important thing that jujitsu teaches you.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, it's kind of a, it can be kind of a, not a trick. Yeah, I'm gonna call it a trick, cuz, okay, you gotta, you gotta maintain the humility, right? But that humility will be tested if you stick with it, so, and I'll tell you a little quick story about that test being bestowed upon me. It was like, a little after I got my purple belt, I was really like, I really hit my stride. I was competing a lot and winning and, um, and.

• 1:49:56Jocko Willink?

  You were training with me a lot back then.

• 1:49:57Speaker 01

  Yes, that was, that was right at that time when I was training with you and you were, you know, when I, you know, if, if.

• 1:50:03Jocko Willink?

  There was, there was a little bit of mentorship going on, jujitsu mentorship.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that was the exact time.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  And, um, and I was like, yeah, and I started to kind of, you know, give into my own height, you know, kinda like, oh, I'm the man. Not outwardly, but on the inside and, um, and, and it was fun.

• 1:50:21Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu man gets cocky on the inside.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  On the inside, yeah. And here's the thing, a lot of people, that's how, you know, in fact, a little bit of that is good cause you get that confidence, that hunger to even learn more and be better. So I had that and then Greg, I hadn't rolled with Greg since. I didn't know him as good, but I knew him, but not as good as I do now. And last time, I wanna say the last time I rolled with him, I was a white belt, long time ago. And he just would destroy me. So I was like, Greg's like, oh yeah, hey, you know, congratulations, you know, you've been winning and stuff like that. I was like, oh yeah. He's like, alright, yeah, yeah, let's roll. So I'm like, alright, let me show what I think. Yeah, I'm thinking in my mind, yeah, I've been winning here. Let me go ahead and show you my new stuff. You know, I was gonna show Greg in my own mind.

• 1:51:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  And so Greg took me, like I was a white belt again, immediately. The kind where literally nothing I did worked and everything he did worked.

• 1:51:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  He was like, it's like he did a step one, step two, step three, tap me out. Step one, step two, step, tap me out. And that was the time where I got put from like the top of the mountain in my own head, right to the bottom of the mountain, literally to the bottom, not, not, almost at the bottom, to the bottom of the mountain.

• 1:51:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's, it's actually, it's actually so good when that happens. And, and actually it's something I, I occasionally, jujitsu is super humbling. Occasionally you get someone that is really, really good and they don't recognize, they don't come up against people all the time that are, they don't come up against people very often that are better than them.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Jocko Willink?

  Most people in the beginning, you have, you have several years of, of being beat down. But occasionally you get somebody that's a great wrestler, or maybe they were a judo player or something. So they come into the game, or they're just super strong, or they're just a freak athlete. And so they very quickly, you know, in a matter of six months to a year, all of a sudden they're doing really well.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:16Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes those people, sometimes those people mentally, they might be good at jujitsu, but they, they don't, they don't mentally get it and they become really bullies. And that's, uh, that's, that's one of the, it doesn't happen that often, like I said, but it does occasionally happen where you get somebody that just is a dominant force, they don't get humbled enough. And, and they don't, because even if you don't actually get humbled, jujitsu normally in the beginning, you learn like, oh, cause one of the things I say to people is, I'm not, you know, because I can tap you, it doesn't mean that I'm a better human than you. It just means I trained more jujitsu than you.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:51Jocko Willink?

  There's, you know what I mean? That's all it means. And that means that someone else is training jujitsu more than me and they can beat me and that's just what it is. But sometimes people think that because they can tap somebody out, that they're better than them.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:06Jocko Willink?

  As a human.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is a superiority.

• 1:53:09Jocko Willink?

  That's not a good attitude to have. That's not what jujitsu should be about.

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and those guys, a lot of times, because they, and this is just kind of a one way to put it. They don't pay their dues, so to speak. You know, like a normal person.

• 1:53:21Jocko Willink?

  They don't get the humility lesson over and over and over again. They get it like a few times, but then they overcome it quickly.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it outweighs that.

• 1:53:27Jocko Willink?

  And it outweighs, yep. So you gotta be careful of that. It's a... Just be, just be careful of that. If you're, if you're a person that's naturally really adept at jujitsu, make sure you're not getting, uh, turning into a bully.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and a lot of times that can block you from learning.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it definitely blocks you from learning.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Because it's like, why would I, why would I start learning all this weirdo game? Like, if you're a strong wrestler, like, why would I start learning bottom game?

• 1:53:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  If, when I'm killing with all this other stuff, I'm gonna listen to that.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  Because there's someone that's a better wrestler than you. That's why.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Or just knows the combination, because a lot of times, certain guys, th- they'll, they'll know the combo to beat wrestling.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  Without having to do wrestling.

• 1:54:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  Like, some guys, they just like that, you know? So...

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  Part of it.

• 1:54:11Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Okay, next question. Have you ever been so dug in on a solution or an opinion, that it felt impossible to admit that you were in fact, wrong?

• 1:54:23Jocko Willink?

  So, I actually almost gave up on this question. And, and... Because it's been, I learned this lesson a long time ago.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:54:32Jocko Willink?

  That, again, the, the humility that you get from jujitsu and from combat and from life, is that I very seldom, dig in, on something that I'm not a hundred percent sure of.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:47Jocko Willink?

  And, and, which means I don't dig in on a lot, because I'm not a hundred percent sure of much, right? Who can be a hundred percent sure of a lot of things? And when I do do that, it's not that hard for me to realize that I'm wrong, stifle my ego, admit it, and change course. It's not that big of a deal to me.

• 1:55:03Jocko Willink?

  When I, like I said, when I do dig in on a subject or on a decision, it's because I know.

• 1:55:10Jocko Willink?

  Like, almost to a 100% certainty that I'm right. Otherwise, I'm gonna leave myself a little bit of an out.

• 1:55:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm not gonna just dig in on things that I can't be positive about, because why would I? Why would I do that? Now, when I end up being wrong, if I do take a stance on something, it's no big deal. I'm gonna use that as an opportunity to show that I'm humble and show that I can admit when I'm wrong. I'm gonna take advantage of it. Good. I'm wrong? Good.

• 1:55:39Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, so I would say just keep your options open, keep an open mind. When you feel yourself or your ego is digging in,

• 1:55:50Jocko Willink?

  just check yourself. And admit that you're wrong and move on. And

• 1:56:00Jocko Willink?

  one thing I think that happens with people is people think that digging in and having a strong 100% opinion makes them appear stronger, or it makes their idea appear stronger, but I don't think so. I, I, I'm not saying to be wishy-washy on stuff. I'm just saying, oh, have an open mind, because I think that's the ultimate strength. That's kind of my opinion. I mean, the last time I came close to digging in, I was advising a company, and they were going through some rough, a little bit of a rough patch. And they started multiple initiatives to try and turn some, some things around. And one of the initiatives, of, of all the initiatives, there was a couple that the CEO wanted done immediately.

• 1:56:45Jocko Willink?

  And two of those initiatives, when I looked at them, I thought, I thought that they were redundant. And so I said, "Look, I wouldn't waste, I wouldn't do both these initiatives. Just pick one. I think this one's the better one. Just do this one, and I think it'll cover the problem." And I convinced him. And it was pretty easy to convince him, because they had limited resources at the time and limited assets, so it wasn't like they had a bunch of stuff to spread around. But he was pretty set on it, but I convinced him otherwise, and he agreed. And within a matter of days, it started to look like I was wrong. And it started to look like both systems were gonna be needed to solve that specific issue. So, I didn't, like, wait. I, I didn't.

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  Say, oh, I hope that things go. I said, look, hey, I think I was wrong about this. I think you were right. Uh, let's get the other initiative going and let's get this problem covered. And that's it. And

• 1:57:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling you, he didn't lose respect for me.

• 1:57:41Jocko Willink?

  Because I said, hey, I'm wrong. After a few days of watching what the results are and making an early decision. He actually thought it was awesome. And he, and you know, he's like, hey, I wish, I wish everyone could admit when they were wrong like that. It would make everything around here so much easier. And I said, well, that's why I'm here in the first place, right? Is to help with that. So

• 1:58:03Jocko Willink?

  just be cautious when you dig in, you know, because when you dig in, you're, you're actually, when you dig in, you're taking away your ability to maneuver.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:12Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to do that.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  So, so watch out.

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 1:58:20Jocko Willink?

  should I read this question? Because this is a question for Echo Charles. So that means I get to do it. Well, there's part of it's two questions actually, but I put them together because they're pretty close. Jocko Willink, what brought you and Echo Charles together? Can we get the backstory there? I like the chemistry.

• 1:58:40Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, question for you to answer on Jocko Podcast. What have you learned from Jocko? And how has your life changed since?

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  This is Echo's first response to a question.

• 1:58:56Jocko Willink?

  Don't screw it up. Here we go.

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna heckle you.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, of course. Which is funny because that's kinda how what brought us together or part of what brought us together. And I think it's good that I answer this part because you probably remember a lot less of it. So.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  I would say it was oh six. I see, I had seen you like the, the first, you know, whatever, within the first year of, of joining with Dean in oh five. But I didn't know you, I didn't talk to you, nothing like that. I just had heard of you from Dean. Um, and then in like oh six, when we moved over to the boxing club, I rolled with you one time. I was still a white belt.

• 1:59:38Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:38Speaker 01

  And, uh, so that could have been still oh five, I don't know. And then, you know, you beat me up and you, you kinda, you were just more like this stoic guy. Basically, I would imagine the same guy that people interpret you to be from the outside, you know, kinda like, not intense, but just real like, oh yeah, just real matter of fact, you know?

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Um, so you beat me up or whatever. And then I was, so I, since I had already heard of you, you were Dean's black belt and, you know, all this stuff that, um, I was like, yeah, that's about right. You know, he's, you know, good jiu jitsu, whatever, beat me up. But that wasn't really saying much because everyone was beating me up. And then, um, time went on, I didn't see you for a while. And then, um, when I started to kinda get, I was, I was training with Brent. Remember Brent?

• 2:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was training with him and then with Elias a little bit. And then, uh, you'd come back. I was competing and then you were just around for whatever reason. Um, and then, yeah, I just started training with you.

• 2:00:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's when we opened Victory, right?

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:35Jocko Willink?

  It was around the same time.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, um, yeah, what was funny is that you never came off, like, once I like knew you, like immediately, you never came off as this super intense person. Like, it was more like you were just sarcastic, like, well, you know, like any other, uh, any other of my friends, but

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  you could still always tell that there was something behind the scenes, you know? You know how Durogan said, like, he seen you and he was like, there's something up with this guy, you know? So I kind of got that same feeling, but you were always just like, oh yeah, this real matter of fact, but fun. Funny like kind of person or whatever like but when I say matter of fact I mean like um like that one this one tournament when uh it was kind of later where I lost to Shawn Roberts. He got me with a go-go platter. You know when you lose in a jujitsu train and that was the first time I lost in since I went advanced you know because I was doing a lot of nogi I had never lost and Shawn Roberts gives me with a go-go platter so instead of you saying hey you know it's okay or nothing like that you send me a text you're sitting across the arena you're right there you send me a

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  text hey you got caught with a go-go that's gotta sting. This is a tournament it's not practice you can't say that kind of stuff I was like ah whatever but I think that um that you know training together and just kind of getting you you know you you'd kind of had that thing that you could say that kind of stuff because really it's not that serious you know.

• 2:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  When I don't think I don't there's a there's not many people who could have conveyed that though you know it did came it it um I think it had to come from you anyway so yeah that's kind of how we met I'd say and then um kind of after a while how did the idea of a podcast come up because we we kind of talked about that a little bit before.

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  I kind of forget the formation but it was in my mind when I went on Joe Rogan's I think we had talked about hey you know we should do something I think you said to me like hey you should do it and so when I went on Joe Rogan's and he said you should do a podcast I think Tim Ferriss said hey you should do a podcast and then I kind of be you being a techie sound guy video guy I just said hey do you know how to make a podcast.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:48Jocko Willink?

  That's right I just said hey how do you you know how to make a podcast so I need to make one.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah yeah.

• 2:02:53Jocko Willink?

  Because everything to me is just a total caveman right how do you do I need a tape recorder what do I need you know that's what my and so then you said yeah I know I I know how to do that I could make that happen and then you said it'd be cool instead of just you sitting there talking if you had someone to talk to and I said yeah you're right that would be cool and then you'd said it'd be cool if it was me.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Yeah well my my selling point was that's strange if it's just you.

• 2:03:21Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Just sitting there you know it's it's more strange and it's better if you have someone to kind of bounce things off of.

• 2:03:27Jocko Willink?

  Agreed.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Especially someone who can kind of be like oh I'm just everyday guy like so I can like ask questions to kind of reiterate the point you know to someone who might not get it um yeah I had it all thought out you know. In my mind, I did anyway. But yeah, then, yeah, obviously Joe Rogan was kind of the tipping point when he suggested it.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that was a good, great insight from Joe Rogan.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  And I'm glad he did, and I'm glad you did, and I'm glad we did make this podcast happen. So to answer the question, what have I learned? And this is interesting because I asked myself this exact same question like a week ago. Because I am literally a different person now in ways that kind of are kind of surprising in a way. So I'd say the first thing that's kind of, kind of not that surprising, but it's very prevalent is when people blame, when I see people blaming other people or blaming me, or I feel the compulsion to blame someone else, it stands out like a sore thumb. Almost like if, if I've been feeling that and it like, almost like if I want to say something to, to indicate that I'm going to blame somebody or something, it's almost

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  like a red flag, like I'm not allowed to do that in my own mind. It's like this hard and fast rule. And like I said, they just stand out like a sore thumb everywhere though. On TV, on, you know, the guy, not even my conversation, oh, I see what you're doing right there, you know? So it's like, it's like your whole way of life in that regard is just shifted.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  Extreme ownership and the awareness of that and seeing it in other people or lack of it in other people definitely stands out like crazy once you start thinking about it.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I have the luxury of being around you, talking about these things, talking about examples of it every week.

• 2:05:10Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  So throughout the week, I'm like, I can't even help but notice it, you know? And it's, right, it helps, man, because it applies to everyone and everything. Like, most relationships are going to apply these principles, you know, if, if you're involved in them. So, yeah, it's all automatic now. So, so when it comes to ownership and, and really blaming myself, if anyone, and focusing on my responsibility in any scenario, whatever, it comes automatic now, I would say.

• 2:05:36Jocko Willink?

  That's a huge step.

• 2:05:36Speaker 01

  I mean, whether I make the right choices, that's always going to be a work in progress, I think, but as far as that attitude, it's automatic now.

• 2:05:45Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  And then, um, in regards to, okay, so I've always been into working out. And so me not feeling like working out is, I've always felt like working out. So.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  As far as not feeling like it, that wasn't really a factor, but in a bunch of other things in life, it was a factor. And so

• 2:06:12Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying not feeling like doing X, Y, or Z?

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, oh, I gotta, I gotta go to the post office today, and that's on the low end. And then, or the other one is, I don't know, I gotta, I don't know, something more important, right? But maybe I'll wait, I'll wait till really the last minute, or, you know, procrastination type stuff.

• 2:06:31Jocko Willink?

  So you're getting into the here and now?

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and not feeling like it, that means absolutely, you know, absolutely nothing. Something needs to be done, and I don't feel like it, and you know how like you have, you have certain ideas already, and then other ideas are introduced, and then those ideas kind of mingle with your existing ideas, and they formulate this whole new course of action, right? So the not feeling like it is no excuse, that idea came in, and so now I'm like, it morphed into this thing, like, me not feeling like it, whoo, guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna do it, you know, so it's almost like this personal challenge now, you know? And, man, as far as results go, man, you get everything done. I get so much stuff done, and it's not, probably compared to you, it's nothing,

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  but I get stuff done, like, so many things done during the day that I never thought that I could do that many things in a day.

• 2:07:21Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:07:22Speaker 01

  I'm all, I was always looking for maybe a rest, or a nap, or something like that. But now every once in a while, I'll be challenging myself to do as many things as I can, and be like, solid. And on top of that, and you're the one who said this, was, um, one time, one of the things, you were kind of tired, and you were like, you know what, but I like this, I like just grinding and grinding and grinding, and then at the end of the day, when I go, go to bed, where my head just crashes into the pillow, I like that. And I was like, yeah, that sounds nice, you know? So I want to approach things like that now. And also, I think of all the good things that have been done, like, great things, and just good things, or whatever. If these people didn't do it because they didn't feel like it, like, these things wouldn't have got done, you know?

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  So if you've got stuff to do, you do it, whether you feel like it or not. That's what I have for myself now. Um, and the last thing, um, is I kinda knew this, but man, it's so clear now that you can get certain messages and information and tips and tactics and stuff from, from people or the internet or books or whatever, but if you're not ready to accept them, you just won't accept them. Or they'll just go in one ear and out the other. And a lot of time that has to do with who's saying it. So if like, I don't know, your neighbor, some goof off, he's drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, he's like, hey, guess what? You know, you should do this.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  And it's, it can be this great advice, but you can be like, I'm not gonna listen to you. I'm not even gonna listen to you. I'm not even gonna get past that part. The fact that you're the one that's saying this already walled me off from what you have to say. And that's natural, I think, but a lot of these things, like you're reading these old books that have these messages that you've been saying. So it's not new stuff. And a lot of stuff, like I heard that, take responsibility for, for your actions.

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's not new, you know? If, if I bust out, hey, hey, you guy on the street, take responsibility for your actions. If something comes up, I'm just saying. He'd be like, yeah, that's nothing new. That wouldn't stand out. But for some reason, when you're saying it, it gets you thinking, yeah, let me take responsibility, you know? So that, so yeah, I'd say when it comes to listening to you, this podcast, all the, you know, the, the answers you have for these questions and any questions I even have, it seems like it, it comes and I process it way more readily than, you know, memes on Facebook or wherever, you know? So yeah.

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  Pretty transformative, I would say.

• 2:09:57Jocko Willink?

  That's really cool. That's, that's great to hear. And I've, I mean, I've definitely seen, uh, a transition in everything you're doing. I mean, everything you're doing is spot on.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:09Jocko Willink?

  And that's legit, you know? It's, it's legit to see, it's legit to see someone moving towards their potential as a human.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:18Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome to see.

• 2:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And another thing that kinda I I came to as not a conclusion, but which is a result. It's not a direct, like you didn't tell me this, but this is what all my existing thoughts mixed with all your input. Kinda arrived at one of the things is that it's up to you, it's up to me. What I spend my time doing, totally up to me. And it's up to me what I fill my head, fill my head with.

• 2:10:46Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:47Speaker 01

  So, you know, like I used to have these shows that I loved to, I love to watch Hawaii Five O and Shark Tank. And that's kinda it. I don't really watch that much TV, but those two.

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  That's maybe, you know, two hours or so. That I could be reading something that's gonna help me through the rest of my life. Or getting better at something that's gonna help my, you know, relationships or career or something like that. And I use that example because that seems pretty, pretty like, eh, not inconsequential, inconsequential cuz it's only two shows. It's not like I spend ten hours a day watching TV. It's just two shows. Who cares? No harm in that, right? But it's, that's up to me. I'm not missing out by missing Hawaii Five O. I'm not missing out. That's not gonna affect my life in any negative way in the future at all. I don't wanna affect my life in any way, actually. But if I read something useful, educate myself in, you know, whatever arena that's gonna improve my interests

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  or my, or, or my relationship or something like that, that will, that will help me.

• 2:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I've, I've, that's one of the things I've noticed, you know, I'd show up, show up at the studio. And you'd say, oh, I was reading this book today about, you know, how we could get this to sound better. And I, I read this thing about, you know, you're coming back to me with all this information. And it was something that just transitioned in your brain where you said, you know what? I could be watching TV and wasting my mind, or I could be applying myself and learning.

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:14Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that makes a huge difference.

• 2:12:16Speaker 01

  That is, well, one of the things I read, actually. Um, and I, I read it on, I wanna say Wikipedia, this specific thing. But there's this, um, this automatic way of thinking and, uh, it's called hyperbolic discounting, right? And all that, all that means is you choose immediate payoffs versus, and I kinda mentioned this before. You choose immediate payoffs versus long-term payoffs, right? And it's there for a reason, survival mechanism and all these ways, but it's old. It exists for, you know, an environment that's not current. So if you can basically A be aware of that and combat that where don't do the immediate payoff things so just take take what you're about to do evaluate it is this gonna help me other than

• 2:13:01Speaker 01

  the pleasure that I think whether that in regards to food drinking TV shows like if you watch reality TV check yourself on that one and ask yourself is this gonna help me in the future and typically the the answer for those types of things is gonna be no and then consider an alternative that you can do and a lot of the stuff can be pleasurable that will help you in the future and it's totally up to you it's totally up to you.

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Why not make the good choice?

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah and the payoff not only is it bigger it lasts longer.

• 2:13:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:37Speaker 01

  And the immediate payoff is gone it's just a memory.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  Awesome that's awesome to hear and and actually we got that next comment here is sort of the same vein it's coming from and we get a bunch of you know emails but I just thought this one was was interesting to hear someone kinda talking about their transition here she says I'm one of many many people who live their lives as they think they should and end up mid 40s lost chubby and depressed I definitely don't hero worship you but I'm truly grateful for your online presence I now get up at 5am daily and I screen grab my phone every morning as the alarm goes off and post that shot with another shot from

• 2:14:25Jocko Willink?

  my walk a few minutes in I walk for an hour daily and I started stretching daily for an hour but this doesn't stop there I now have a bunch of friends who are getting up early and going for a walk or going to the gym getting after it as you say we are all noticing an improvement in our lives so we might not be military or police we are not planning on becoming jujitsu champions at this stage we're just people who lost themselves lost their way who are finding their way back.

• 2:14:59Jocko Willink?

  In part, thanks to you. I credit you at least twice a week and tell people to find you on Twitter. I had to write here because there's no way I could fit this into 140 characters. And thanks to Tim and Joe for having you on their shows. That's where I found you. Have a great day. So, it, really cool, you know, really cool to hear that, really great to get that feedback. And, you know, this is what I like about it. Well, first of all, you know, I thank people for spreading the words and, and it's really good to hear that feedback. It fires me up to hear the feedback. And when people say, when people say, "I motivate them," I'm always like, "You motivate me." You know, that, it motivates me that you're out there getting up at 5 a.m. and, and turning your life around.

• 2:15:41Jocko Willink?

  I think that's awesome. And also, what I, what I liked about this was they pointed out that this isn't just military, or police, or jiu-jitsu players, it's for pretty much anybody. In any station in life, in any job, any age, man or woman, any country. As a matter of fact, I was in England. And, my wife's from England. And when I was in England, I went and saw one of my wife's friends. Who, I'm friends with the husband, and, you know, here's this woman who's, I don't know, forty-something years old, she's, lives in England, she's got three kids. She's, like, couldn't be any further detached from me and my life.

• 2:16:27Jocko Willink?

  And when I was, I was hanging out with her husband in London before we went to their house. And he said, when we got on the train to go to his house, he said, "Listen, you gotta be ready." And I'm like, "For what?" And he says, "My wife loves your podcast." And I said, "Really?" And he said, "No, no, no, I'm serious. She loves your podcast, and when we have dinner night, she's gonna ask you questions all night long. She's been asking me the questions that she was gonna ask you." And so, I showed up, and seriously, um, it was great. She was asking me all these detailed questions about everything. And it was really cool because I realized that this, I mean, this, like I said, this person doesn't do jiu-jitsu, doesn't- You know, doesn't do anything that I do.

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:17:08Jocko Willink?

  Nothing. And yet, she was, had all these lessons learned and all these things she had taken away. And it was awesome to see that. And it was interesting too, because as I was talking to her, it was on a Friday or a Saturday. And as I'm talking to her, she, she had listened to the latest podcast on the day before.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:17:27Jocko Willink?

  And so she was saying to me, you know, well, yesterday you said this and yesterday you said that. And so in her mind, I was talking to her yesterday.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:36Jocko Willink?

  I was talking to her yesterday. And that's when I kind of realized that how, how impactful is what we talked about where, you know, where the words, the podcast words are going directly into your brain. And I've had a bunch of people say, you know, oh, when you're talking, oh, you were telling this story. I wanted you to talk about this story. You know, these are friends of mine.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:17:54Jocko Willink?

  And so, so I think that's, that's really cool. And um, I think that's why a lot of people are getting into the game and enjoying it. It because, and, and you just said it, and I, I say it all the time.

• 2:18:07Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing new here. And we're not giving out any groundbreaking techniques. And there's no miracle drug and there's no three-minute exercise that's going to change your life. I'm not selling the self-help. Reach your potential through this magical mystery.

• 2:18:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling people what they already know. And we're talking about things that people know to be right in their own heads. Like discipline and hard work and consistency, those are the things.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:42Jocko Willink?

  And we all know those things.

• 2:18:46Jocko Willink?

  But to everybody, that's, that's kind of known these things for a while, but they've recently started to get after it.

• 2:18:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Good on you.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:58Jocko Willink?

  Get on that path.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:01Jocko Willink?

  And stay on that path. That's what I'm talking about. Very cool.

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  I feel like, um, like, just like how you were saying, like, we, we, a lot of this, we already knew. We already know about state discipline. We already know about all, all this stuff or whatever. But coming from you, it, it helps. And then on top of that, this is an added element that I'm, that I'm kind of really starting to really understand and feel is that, you know how like you, on Twitter, like you engage. You know, you, you, like, if someone asks you questions, it, it seems like you're engaging them a lot, more so than.

• 2:19:37Jocko Willink?

  If somebody asks me a question, I'm gonna answer their question. I'm not rude.

• 2:19:40Speaker 01

  Which is good. I, I try to too, for sure. Um, I would imagine you'd be, you know, have way more than me. But, um, kind of as a result of everything, I feel like we're all kind of doing this together, you know? You know how the guys down in Australia, they'll post all the, you know, a lot of people, e- everyone, they're posting their, you know, four thirty AM wake up, time to do this, everyone.

• 2:19:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:59Speaker 01

  Cause that's what you did. Now guess what? We're all doing it.

• 2:20:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  You know, we're all doing it. You're responding, they're responding to you, you're responding to them. We're reading questions from them.

• 2:20:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Isn't it kind of weird, like, these are other people?

• 2:20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:12Jocko Willink?

  And through this weird interweb, they're actually asking questions from some unknown part of the world.

• 2:20:19Speaker 01

  We're having a conversation, basically.

• 2:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of delayed, but yeah, that's exactly what's going on. So e- example, I, I should have just grabbed my phone and s- saw the thing. I forget the guy's name, but he was like, hey, Echo, um, Sunday workout, Sunday. This was like early this morning, maybe late last night, whatever. Sunday workout, give me one. I need a Sunday workout. So I was like, oh, okay. So I gave him the workout. It was basically, um, uh, uh, two rounds, five sets of, um, clean and, clean and press, five, five reps, clean and press five times, and then five burpees. That's one set. Do five sets, forty five seconds rest in between, rest for two minutes, and then do five more forty five seconds rest. That's it. I said, use a hundred thirty five pounds. I only said a hundred thirty five pounds, cause that's what, that's the exact thing I do after I lift.

• 2:21:03Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:04Speaker 01

  And that's like, to me, that's the hard, lifting's not that hard. But that part's kind of hard to me.

• 2:21:08Jocko Willink?

  The Metcon.

• 2:21:09Speaker 01

  The Metcon, yeah. So I'm like, but I don't know, maybe, I don't know if I'm in good shape or not.

• 2:21:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:14Speaker 01

  As far as that goes. So I think, I say, you do it and use that weight, but here's the thing. If he's smaller.

• 2:21:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  I don't know how big he is. We're just talking on Twitter, you know, so you know, that put the weight didn't really matter.

• 2:21:26Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully he scaled it properly.

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  Well, he said later on, he was like, dang, that was pain, but I feel great. I was like, solid. He said, hey, but I adjusted the weight.

• 2:21:33Jocko Willink?

  Good for him.

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  So I'm saying, okay, you know, that makes sense. But my, my two reasons why I was, I'm into that is because I wanted that interaction like, hey, do my workout, you know? And what I'm gonna do, and I thought of this earlier this morning where, um, or earlier today, I'm gonna send him back, say, you give me a workout.

• 2:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna do it and but make it something at least close to what you do or something you do and I'll give you an evaluation.

• 2:21:59Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:21:59Speaker 01

  So hopefully I can get some variety and it'll help that interaction. I think that's dope.

• 2:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  Like how he actually went and did it.

• 2:22:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:05Speaker 01

  I was like, heck, yeah, you did that.

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Some barn in Iowa or some.

• 2:22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, wherever he was.

• 2:22:11Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. Good deal.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Last question.

• 2:22:16Speaker 01

  There must be some aspect of the Tootsie situation that I don't understand. Even if I'm on the losing side of a fight, I still want to go down swinging. I could tell how much this affected Jocko. It would suck to be so close to such an unjust fight and not be able to do anything about it.

• 2:22:36Jocko Willink?

  Yes. It, it. It is hard to look at that situation and really understand it. And it's horrible to look back at it now.

• 2:22:49Jocko Willink?

  And know that we didn't do anything about it.

• 2:22:56Jocko Willink?

  But, but what can we do with it? How can we apply this to everyday life? Because I agree with you.

• 2:23:04Jocko Willink?

  You gotta go down swinging.

• 2:23:08Jocko Willink?

  And, and I'll tell you this, if you, if you fight with all you've got,

• 2:23:14Jocko Willink?

  more often than not, you won't go down at all.

• 2:23:19Jocko Willink?

  You win.

• 2:23:24Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta make that attitude part of your everyday life. The extra rep, the extra mile, the extra round, the right choices. To make yourself stronger mentally and physically.

• 2:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Stand and fight.

• 2:23:46Jocko Willink?

  Fight against weakness and against fear. And fight against time and decay. Fight back.

• 2:23:57Jocko Willink?

  Go down swinging.

• 2:24:01Jocko Willink?

  And give every day, everything you've got.

• 2:24:06Jocko Willink?

  And when you face a challenge, even something where you don't believe you can win. Maybe it's a situation where you cannot win.

• 2:24:16Jocko Willink?

  But if you can't win,

• 2:24:20Jocko Willink?

  remember this.

• 2:24:23Jocko Willink?

  You have nothing to lose. So stand up and go forward and go out in a blaze of glory. Fighting with everything you've got, every ounce of energy, every bead of sweat. And every drop of blood.

• 2:24:43Jocko Willink?

  Till your last breath. And then,

• 2:24:49Jocko Willink?

  and only then,

• 2:24:52Jocko Willink?

  you can stand down.

• 2:24:55Jocko Willink?

  And you can put down your sword. And you can put down your shield.

• 2:25:02Jocko Willink?

  And rest.

• 2:25:06Jocko Willink?

  In peace.

• 2:25:13Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So, thanks all you troopers out there for tuning in and listening. And thanks for remembering. You know, we started this off tonight

• 2:25:30Jocko Willink?

  with a statement of remembrance of some fallen warriors. So thanks for remembering them, remembering the past, remembering war and the horror and the glory and the heroes. Thanks for remembering that and thanks for learning from them.

• 2:25:50Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for connecting with us through the interwebs.

• 2:25:55Jocko Willink?

  You guys out there are opening my mind with the books that you're sending me, the articles that you're sending me, the videos you're sending me, the connections you're making, you're making us smarter. So, thank you. And of course, thanks for supporting the podcast, listening, downloading, subscribing, reviewing, writing reviews, get on iTunes and write some reviews.

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  If you want.

• 2:26:21Jocko Willink?

  If you feel like it.

• 2:26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:24Jocko Willink?

  And then the other forms of support we got.

• 2:26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you like the t-shirts and coffee mugs, bumper stickers that we got on Jaco's store too, get some of those. Solid. Also, if you want to add to the conversation when you're not listening to the podcast, Jaco is at Jocko Willink on Twitter.

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Twitter, @JacoWillink.

• 2:26:45Speaker 01

  @JacoWillink and I'm at @EchoCharles.

• 2:26:49Jocko Willink?

  And you made the Facebook too, which has not been utilized as much yet.

• 2:26:53Speaker 01

  Right, and I've been slowly checking them.

• 2:26:56Jocko Willink?

  I checked them. We pulled questions from them.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  Okay, good, good. Okay, yeah, so facebook.com/jacopodcast. And I think slowly we're going to transition to getting the questions from there. Everywhere probably, really. You know, a good question is a good question.

• 2:27:09Jocko Willink?

  But long questions, I mean, it's hard. Don't take pictures of long questions and post them because I copy and paste them into a document.

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:27:19Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, folks out there that took pictures of questions and I twittered you back and said, hey, write that.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:25Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  Yep, cool. Yeah, there it is. Boom.

• 2:27:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and if you, uh, if you're interested in the book, Leif Babin and I wrote, Extreme Ownership. It's all these basic principles we talk about all the time. You can get it hardcover Kindle or you can get an audiobook, which the audiobook is myself and Leif reading it. So.

• 2:27:45Speaker 01

  Or any books that you've covered on any of these podcasts.

• 2:27:47Jocko Willink?

  That's right.

• 2:27:48Speaker 01

  It's on JacoStore.com, by the way. So, on the top menu, you click on that book and it'll show the description and what podcast is on, etc. And you can buy them from there.

• 2:27:56Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. So, finally, and most importantly to everybody out there, you sitting there with your headphones on, listening, thank you.

• 2:28:08Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for deciding that you are gonna hold the line.

• 2:28:13Jocko Willink?

  That you're gonna fight through the discomfort and the weakness and the pain and you're gonna get up.

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  And get after it.

• 2:28:24Jocko Willink?

  So until next time.

• 2:28:28Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko and Echo. Out.