You’ve Got to Demand Everything of Yourself | Paralympian Ezra Frech

The pressure of being great changes when you’re carrying more than your own ambition. In today’s episode, Ryan sits down with Paralympian Ezra Frech https://www.instagram.com/ezrafrech/?hl=en to talk about the discipline required to compete at the highest level and the weight that comes with representing more than just yourself. Ezra shares what it actually takes to be a top professional Paralympian, his experience growing up with a disability, the role his parents played in building his confidence, and more. Ezra Frech is an American track and field athlete who competes in high jump, long jump and sprinting events. He is a two-time Paralympian, having competed at the 2020 Summer Paralympics and won two gold medals at the 2024 Summer Paralympics. Ezra co-created and produced a three-part docuseries called Adaptive https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/adaptive-paris/6615826746536447112with NBC Sports + Peacock. Check it out here! https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/adaptive-paris/6615826746536447112 Follow Ezra on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ezrafrech/?hl=en and TikTok @EzraFrech https://www.tiktok.com/@ezrafrech?lang=en and on YouTube @ItsEzraFrech https://www.youtube.com/@ItsEzraFrech Make 2026 the year where you finally bring yourself closer to living your best life. No more waiting. Demand the best for yourself. The Daily Stoic New Year New You https://join.dailystoic.com/nyny26/ challenge begins January 1, 2026. Learn more and sign up today at dailystoic.com/challenge http://dailystoic.com/challenge. 👉 Get The Daily Stoic New Year New You https://join.dailystoic.com/nyny26/ & all other Daily Stoic courses for FREE when you join Daily Stoic Life | dailystoic.com/life https://dailystoic.com/life/ 🎥 Watch the video episodes on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos: https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos 🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast/?hl=en: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/ https://store.dailystoic.com/ 📱 Follow us: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/, Twitter https://twitter.com/dailystoic, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoic?lang=en, and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dailystoic See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

• 0:51Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I just had a lovely run around Town Lake. I've been doing eight or so miles every morning. I was in Central Park the other day, did eight on Monday, eight on Tuesday, and then eight today here on Wednesday as I'm recording this. I'm an amateur though, right? I love running. I take it very seriously, but I'm an amateur. And I say that because I've had the pleasure over the years of meeting many professional athletes and Olympians, many of whom have got to interview on the podcast or have gotten to talk to their different teams or organizations over the years. And

• 1:35Ryan Holiday?

  you just, you're like, wow, you see someone who's great at what they do. First, I'm genetically gifted in all these ways. And then just the intensity and the discipline and the training and the structure and the folks, it's always mind-blowing and inspiring and really, really cool. But today's guest is actually a first because I think he's the youngest guest I've ever had on the Daily Stoic Podcast, but he's also the first Paralympian on the show. As Refrec is a track and field athlete, an American track and field athlete, I should say, who competes in the high jump. The long jump and in sprinting is a two-time Paralympian.

• 2:14Ryan Holiday?

  Having competed at the 2020 Summer Paralympics and he won two gold medals at the 2024 Paralympics. He also won two silver medals at the 2019 Parapan American Games. He's actually been a disability advocate for a long time. He was on the Ellen Show talking about this stuff when he was nine years old. Actually, let me play you that clip real fast.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Boy, oh, boy, you're something else, Ezra. Okay, so you, the story is you were three years old and the doctors had to amputate your leg. Tell us your story.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  So I was born with one finger on my left hand and a leg that was curved. They removed the part that was curved. They took the big toe and they put it on my left hand. So now I have two fingers and a stump that they can put a prosthetic leg on.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Right, so and it has not slowed you down a bit, has it?

• 3:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  No, so and you love sports.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  I love sports.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  And you, I mean, and this kid, it's amazing what you have done. You've done so many, what are all the sports you play?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  I play basketball. We're starting basketball season. I play soccer. Soccer season is next. This is actually my football jersey that we just ended. I was the QB.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Does that mean quarterback?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  You're a quarterback. Wow.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  And then, and then the one that I love the most is probably track and field. I set seven national records.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  So your ultimate goal is, what do you want to do with your life?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  I probably want to go to the Paralympics someday, hopefully the Olympics. Well, I'm a kid, I'm nine years old. I have like 20 more years to think about it, but I don't know.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you should for sure.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  I want to be an athlete.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  You want to be an athlete and you will, you are an athlete. But you also should be a motivational speaker because you really should go and talk to kids.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  I do.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Good, you do, that's good.

• 4:09Ryan Holiday?

  It's crazy to think that that's who he is. It's like, you watch that clip of Tiger Woods when he's on some talk show and he's like two or three and then who would have guessed that this person would go on to be what they end up becoming. But here, the kid from that clip is now 20 and he's accomplished a lot. He actually, he'd just come from very far away, just been competing somewhere and it hadn't gone well. It was interesting to see him kind of shaken about that. We talked a lot about that thing that they call the sort of silver medal paradox, how, you know, bronze athletes are sometimes happier than silver athletes. And he was like raw from that experience. It was a fascinating thing to be able to ask him about. We talked about how his parents shaped him.

• 4:52Ryan Holiday?

  We talked about the pressure that comes when you are a representative of a, of a group, right, of a minority, of a type of people, when you are, when they see something in you and the public sees you as a representative of them. And we talked about how he learned to manage his emotions. It was also funny to find out that his dad had been sending him stuff from The Daily Stoic since he was a kid. And I was really excited to have him on. He just came out with this cool three-part docu-series with NBC Sports called Adaptive, which is about challenging some of those narratives about disability and how it's not something you overcome, it's something you embrace, it's something that helps you become what you're capable of being, that there's meaning in it and there's something to learn from it.

• 5:37Ryan Holiday?

  I reached out to some people I know who are also Paralympians, one of whom's a wounded vet, and I asked him what he thought of Ezra. He said, "Only very nice things." So I was really excited to have him on and I thought this made for a great interview. You can follow Ezra on Instagram and TikTok, @ezrafrek, and on YouTube, @itsezrafrek. I will link to that and check out the Adaptive doc, because it's really, really good. And I thought this was a great conversation.

• 6:09Ryan Holiday?

  I think you're the youngest person on this podcast, so congratulations.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 6:12Ryan Holiday?

  I think so.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  I appreciate that. That's true.

• 6:15Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's funny.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  That'll go on my resume.

• 6:17Ryan Holiday?

  I was for many years always the youngest person to do stuff. And then at some point you wake up and you're like, I remember I lived, I remember I was in LA and I was working at this talent agency and I was working for this guy and he was like, he was a movie producer, but he was 26, which is like very young. And to me, he was like super old, you know, he was like, and he was, he was, I remember he said to me, he was like, it's all very exciting, you're young and then you're more successful than all your friends. And then he's like, starting at about 26, 27, they all start graduating from medical school and stuff. And he's like, and then it all evens out very quickly.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  That's so interesting.

• 6:55Ryan Holiday?

  Because like I dropped out of college, I was like in the mix very early in doing like exciting, interesting stuff.

• 7:00Speaker 03

  Compared to your friends.

• 7:01Ryan Holiday?

  Compared to my friends who like, this is all around the financial crisis. So most of them like either didn't find what they wanted to do right away because there, no one was hiring, or they went back to get to grad school or whatever. And then it all, it all kind of evens out.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  It evens out because most students are in school for an extended period of time and then immediately enter the workforce.

• 7:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  No, I resonate with that. I totally resonate with that. It's also weird to be already in pursuit of your maybe career really early compared to your friends. Cause you don't have a lot of shared experiences. And I guess in my, in my.

• 7:37Ryan Holiday?

  Well, all your peers are older.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Right. I have friends from high school and friends in college that are my age, but we're just operating in totally different worlds sometimes, if that makes sense. They, you know, they're interested in going out and partying and hanging out and doing this thing and finding internships at companies that I have the opportunity to partner with, right? So it's just the totally weird. Almost dynamic of career power in a way, but at the same time, it's like, you're right that at a certain point, it completely evens out. And then it's like the friends that have been studying for eight years are now just like, you know, some successful doctor.

• 8:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  And we're 27 and I mean, I'd like to think at 27, I'll be like this much further down my career, but.

• 8:20Ryan Holiday?

  Well, being, being an athlete must be weird too, because on the one hand, it's childlike, like you're still playing a game, you're doing a thing that you did, right? And there's, it's like fun and interesting and exciting. It's not like the real world, like having to go to an office. And on the other hand, you have to be serious and professional in a way that your college friends don't. Like the college athlete is on campus as an athlete, like all the other students, but basically has a full-time unpaid job.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  For sure. And the difference is that what I feel like I'm trying to pursue, especially in the Paralympic space. I mean, I've grown up obsessed with this dream, obsessed with this goal. I grew up dying to live the life that I'm able to live right now. And so I have a lot of gratitude just in that sense. But the reality is, at least the way the Paralympics is right now, it's maybe the best comparison, the best comparison would be women's sports 20 years ago or 15 years ago, where you're not able to make a living just by being good at your sport. That's the reality.

• 9:19Ryan Holiday?

  The sport's not paying you.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  The sport's not paying you. Just being good at your sport, you don't make any money. I know five-time Paralympic gold medalists dominating their sport for years, who are living paycheck to paycheck. That's the reality. People always talk about how difficult it is to be an Olympic athlete. And it's really difficult. And then it's 10 times worse to be a Paralympic athlete.

• 9:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course, for many reasons.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  For many reasons. And so I'm sort of always in this uphill battle. So in the same way that I have to be hyper-focused on my career, because everything that I do on the track has to be number one important, because that sets up all these other opportunities. In that same way, I have to pursue things excluding the track, like the content creation, like the speaking, like the sponsor stuff, like whatever else we might be doing in order to actually in some ways fund that athletic career, which is, which is. Super interesting.

• 10:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you basically are a professional athlete and then your job is like content creator influencer person. But instead of being like, I just put on these clothes, you have to run really fast.

• 10:20Speaker 03

  Exactly. And so think like to think about the type of commitment that goes into being the best, which is you have to be all in. I have to be all in on the track. I need to be putting my blood, sweat, tears into this. I need to sacrifice everything in my life, but then I also have to figure out ways to monetize.

• 10:35Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Cause the sport isn't paying me.

• 10:37Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  And then additionally hard to keep up with school. Like the reality is doing an essay late at night for a class that isn't that important to the general gist of my career is sometimes really hard to justify.

• 10:50Ryan Holiday?

  But the school gives you the chance to perform in front of large groups of people and be in the NCAA mix in a way that like being, I don't know, an independent lacrosse player is not going to give you like that's where the fans are.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  I did one year competing on the collegiate team and then I went pro this past summer.

• 11:11Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, so you can't.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  I'm not running on USC anymore.

• 11:14Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  And, and the way track and field works is that because there's no league.

• 11:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  You get what's called a professional contract. So professionalizing, going pro in track and field is signing to an apparel company where now you get paid for performance bonuses. You get paid to win the world title, break the world record, win a national championship. That's our equivalent running for an apparel company as getting drafted to the MLB or NHL or NBA.

• 11:41Ryan Holiday?

  But if you were Caitlin Clark, you could have an apparel deal, no? And still play?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Right, right, right. No, no, you can still, you can still on the NBA, NFL, you also get apparel deals on top of that.

• 11:51Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, I mean, I mean, like if, if you're Caitlin Clark and you're playing in college, she could have an apparel deal and not lose her.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  And I could too, and I could too.

• 11:59Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, got it.

• 11:59Speaker 03

  But the type of apparel deal is different. I won't get paid for performance.

• 12:03Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  It's a NIL deal where you basically, it's based on your name, image, likeness. You get a base amount of money.

• 12:10Ryan Holiday?

  Got it.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  If I win a world title or break the world record, that amount doesn't change.

• 12:14Ryan Holiday?

  So it's the, the incentives are what make you a pro. So it used to be. Like money versus no money and now it's what little memo they put on the

• 12:25Speaker 03

  It's like if you do well, if you perform well on the track, then you basically make more money, which is the closest equivalent to being an NBA player and you do well and you get a bigger contract, right? That's the closest, closest equivalent. That's why in track it's called professionalizing because there's really no league. I just go compete at international meets around Europe, right? Where Team USA on the world stage and stuff like that. And then you have based on your sponsors bonuses, assuming you do well.

• 12:54Ryan Holiday?

  Did turning pro feel different? Like, like, did it change how you approach doing it? Or is it just an accounting switch?

• 13:04Speaker 03

  It changes a little bit. So the reality is I had a pretty difficult first year, or I guess only year on the USC track team. I took a gap year when I graduated high school. I took the gap year to train entirely for the Paris Paralympic Games before I went to college. And what that allowed me to do is basically organize and optimize everything that I was doing in my day designed to perform on the track. So 10 to 12 hours of sleep every night, five, six hours of recovery, sauna, red light, cryo, hyperbaric chamber, a few hours on the track, you know, my morning meditation, visual, everything that I was doing was intended to get me closer to winning Paralympic gold. And then I went to college. After an amazing Paralympic

• 13:46Speaker 03

  Games, after all the success, I go to college and now I'm dealing with teachers that don't care about anything else that I'm doing. I have homework assignments, an 8 a.m. class. We're only allowed to be on the track from this time to this time. We weight lift from this time. So it was in a way, became really difficult for me to maintain that level of optimization that I had leading into Paris. And so because of that, I was just sort of struggling to find my way. Eventually I got a little bit better at it. But in a way, going pro gives me the opportunity to get back to that place of full optimization.

• 14:17Ryan Holiday?

  My main thing.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  This is my main thing. I build my schedule around this. And then what happened was, you know, I just got back from a world championships in India. I landed literally in LA yesterday. And then jumped on the flight two hours later to come here. Are you exhausted? I'm a little, I'm a little tired, but you know, I'm a good energy in the room. Sometimes brings about your own mental energy. So I'm all right. But the reality is I didn't do very well at this last world championships. Right. The one in India. The one I just got back from really poor, really bad performance on my end. And the ramifications of a difficult year where I wasn't fully optimized. And so. It's a lagging indicator of. Exactly. Some to sit. What has performed badly mean to you? In Paris at the Paralympics, I won the high jump.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  I'm the world record holder in the high jump and I lost the world title. I got a silver in the high jump. In India. In India. And then I. So bad for you as second place. Bad, a hundred percent as second place, especially in high jump. That's my main event. That's, that's my event. And then the 100 meter, which I won in Paris, I placed fifth in. Once again, I mean, it's been, it's been a difficult year, a really unorthodox year. Ridiculed with injuries and things going on. We released a documentary. I had to do a whole press tour. And so things were really inconsistent. Training wasn't really there. And then that's what happens when you go to world championships underprepared. Like that's, that's the result, but I will say, you know, I'm, I look back on this world championships quite fondly. I'm sort of excited about all learnings and what will come, but I, I totally lost.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  And it was really, you know, lots of tears the last couple of weeks. It's funny you say that. Do you know that there's sort of silver medal paradox? Have you heard this thing? Is it that getting silver is worse than getting bronze? Because when you're bronze, you're happy to be on the podium. But when you get silver, you're so close to gold, you feel like you were cheated or so bummed in a way. So you, you actually feel that that checks out for you. I mean, 1,000% that's real in a way because you know, there's been times where, you know, I've gotten a bronze medal at some international competition and I'm so hyped that I got this bronze medal, right? But then you get a silver and you think, oh man, I was really close to gold. I think circumstance is really important though. Yeah. And so. I am the world record holder in the high jump. I should not lose that event.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  If I lose the high jump, it is me beating myself. It is not my opponent beating me, if that makes any sense. So the fact that I lost that and got a silver. But couldn't it just as easily be the conditions? Or that the other person outperform, like what? So the other person performed really well. He had the best day of his life and I had to have a really bad day. And there's so many, you're right, there's so many variables involved. Conditions, injuries, like a few weeks before the competition, I could barely walk. I hurt my back real bad. Right. But at the end of the day, there's no excuses. Like I showed up next to this dude and he beat me. He's the world champion and that eats me alive. Really? It eats you alive? Eats me alive. I mean, for context, just so you understand how I operate. I was 16 years old at the Tokyo 2020 Paralympic Games. Okay.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  I should have been on the podium. I was capable of it, but I was really young. That was my first games and I placed fifth. And are there age groups in the Paralympics? No, no age groups. So, I mean, it's probably important to establish just some like general understanding for the viewers as well, which, and the listeners, which is the Paralympics happens two weeks after the Olympics. Right. And it is for people with physical disabilities. 15% of the world population, a billion people globally, 50 million in the US, that live with a physical disability. Wow. Which is staggering numbers. That's a very large number. In contrast, people with cognitive disabilities, that's 2% to 3% of the US population. So this is a massive, massive number. And what people get confused on is they either think it's the same thing as the Olympics.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  They think I'm, I'm an Olympian, which they're related, but they are different. Different committees and different organizing committees and different games. Or they think I'm a special Olympian, which, which is, Special Olympics is great. An amazing organization and they do programming for people with cognitive impairments. But it's inclusive, it's programming. Yes. Paralympics is the highest level sport and competition on the planet. People just happen to have a physical disability. Right. And there's classifications, so I only compete against people with the same or similar disability. Right. I'm not going to run against a blind dude. Yeah. A guy missing just his hand. He would beat me and whatever, they're more capable. And so. In the Paralympics, my classification in the high jump when I was 16 years old in Tokyo, I got fifth. Yeah.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  And I was the final chance for me to get the bronze medal. I take this high jump at a height that was basically my personal best. And I have the best jump of my life. I soar over the bar. I land on the mat. I don't even touch it. I don't feel myself touch it. And I jump up to go celebrate. And I, I see the red flag and the bar's down. And I, I thought I just didn't touch this bar at all. And my prosthetic leg skimmed the top of the bar. Oh, and you wouldn't have felt it. And I didn't feel it. Yeah. And so I was devastated to lose on this, on the world stage. I felt like I let the, my family down, my friends, everyone. And so that night, I set the lock screen on my phone as a photo of the medalists. Yeah. When they took, they take that photo with the flags and I watched. That you're not in.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  That I'm not in with the words, never again. So that every time I would open up my phone for those years in between Tokyo and the next games, which was obviously Paris, I would see a photo of the dudes that beat me and it would just always reinvigorate me. I gotta go get this one back. But that's how I am, you know, that's, I am deeply motivated by my losses and failures and how I can learn from them. Do you think that's healthy? I don't know if that's healthy. I think that, this is a question that my family poses to me a lot. Yeah. And my parents' job in a way has become to right reel me back in when they see me getting to a point, cause I'm an obsessive at heart. Yeah. And I think about this all day, 24/7. It's all that goes through my head.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  I think that's almost a slight qualification to be successful at anything is you have to be all in and super committed. Sure. But I don't know if it's healthy. I do a lot of things to make sure I'm mentally in a good place. I meditate daily. I do quite a bit of journaling. My mom has basically been my mental coach for very many years. And so they're constantly aware of that. And am I going too far and how to reel me back in? But it's always sort of, that's kind of my personality in a way. I don't. Do you think there's another form of motivation or that's the only thing that could propel you? It's not the only thing that propels me. It's actually not even close to the only thing. It's actually probably not even the biggest motivator. The biggest motivator for me is is purpose.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  I genuinely feel in my heart of hearts, I was put on this earth to normalize disability. Huh. To be an example of what is possible as an amputee. Because the reality is, you live with the physical disability, life is worse. People with physical disabilities are bullied in higher rates, have less job opportunities. The depression rate is higher, less physically active. I talk to kids with disabilities all the time. They're bullied in school 24/7. And in my- They just have the thing to deal with, whatever it is. Right, right, but even excluding that, which for a lot of people is just normal to them. Right. Their quality of life is substantially worse. And in my opinion, it's because I don't think that disability is properly included in society in a weird way. Like, there's this stigma, people don't know what to say, they don't want to say the wrong thing, they don't want to offend anyone, they don't understand.

• 21:38Speaker 03

  Right. And so I think that my purpose in life is to normalize disability. And the way I believe I do that is through becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time. Through putting myself out there and the media, building a big enough brand to be the spokesperson for this contingent of the population. Sure. And so that's the biggest driver for me, which is, I think of, you know, there's, there's kids in parts of Africa, places in the Middle East. People with disabilities are considered cursed. Yeah. There was a story that my mom read a few months after I was born about a Chinese trash scavenger that adopted 40 something children because they were born missing fingers and limbs and were thrown in the trash. And he found them there and adopted them, kids with disabilities around the world.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  We have soldiers who came back from the Middle East and said that they found kids with disabilities shot and killed in the forest just because they were born different. And so if I think about the grand scheme of things, my purpose in life, this might not be the healthiest way to think about it, but if I don't accomplish my goals, if I don't rewire the way the world sees disability. More of these children suffer and more people with disabilities suffer.

• 22:47Ryan Holiday?

  So where does getting second place next to another Paralympian?

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:51Ryan Holiday?

  Why do you have to feel shitty about that?

• 22:54Speaker 03

  Because, because, because winning, winning and going down as the greatest Paralympian of all time, track is just one of the first steps to accomplishing that larger vision and elevating the profile of the Paralympics and broadening the brand and the opportunities that come from that. And so in my head, I need to go down as the greatest Paralympian of all time in order to then be at a place to create this sort of broader change.

• 23:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, I relate to it. It's a tension, right? Because like, did you feel like there was something that you could have done that you didn't do? And that's what you're kicking yourself about? Or are you mostly just mad about the result?

• 23:32Speaker 03

  So losing in general sucks.

• 23:34Ryan Holiday?

  Of course, nobody loses.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Nobody likes to lose and I'm ultra.

• 23:36Ryan Holiday?

  Losers do. Have you ever heard that joke?

• 23:38Speaker 03

  No, what is that?

• 23:39Ryan Holiday?

  Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Oh, right. Because if they're okay with losing, then they're a loser.

• 23:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny.

• 23:45Ryan Holiday?

  Well, no, if you're good with losing, you'll lose a lot.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  You'll lose a lot. Yeah, that's funny. I mean, so yeah, in general, losing sucks, but that's not sort of, I accept that. I know that in a sport that.

• 23:55Ryan Holiday?

  You're not gonna win all the time.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  You're not gonna win all the time. That's the way it goes.

• 23:57Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  And for me, it's more so what I do in the preparation. If I do everything in my power possible, if I leave no stone unturned, I can walk away from the track after the competition.

• 24:06Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Yep. Whether I'm pissed about losing, that's fine, but I did everything I could. There was no stone left unturned. And I do feel similarly about this last competition. The only thing is, we just took a lot of risks throughout the year. I was the first above the knee amputee to ever compete on a D1 track team. We didn't know what that was gonna look like. We made a lot of changes prosthetic wise. There was, I'm sort of battling a ton of adversity, a few injuries. And then we released this documentary on Peacock. It's called Adaptive. And I basically put my heart and soul into making this project. So I had to do everything in my power to make sure that it's successful and people watch it. And we did a whole media tour, which I don't regret because we, I needed to do that for the bigger purpose.

• 24:47Ryan Holiday?

  But it might have cost you something.

• 24:48Speaker 03

  But it cost me. It did. And so I had inconsistent training and, you know, within the. Circumstances, I did the best I could.

• 24:56Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  But this learning from the losses at this world championships is moving forward. The main thing needs to be the main thing. And this was the first year I've really struggled to juggle everything.

• 25:07Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  After Paris, everything sort of elevated and we had opportunities come in beforehand, but not at the same level and not in the same way. And so now I have to figure out how to balance everything. And this year was just the learning, so.

• 25:31Ryan Holiday?

  When the hard part is you do these other things because like, like for me, like you can't just be an author for the most part these days, like just the economics of the business and, and also the things that ultimately make people read the books you gotta do over here. Like this podcast is a good example. But the problem is all those other things as well as they can pay and as interestingly it can be, they all have a cost, but you, you don't find out about the cost. You know, the cost is there, but you think you're getting away with it.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:59Ryan Holiday?

  And you don't pay the bill until some unexpected later moment. And it's often higher than you wanted it to be.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  That's exactly how I feel. That you couldn't have articulated that any more perfectly. Cause as you're juggling these things, of course you think you're doing it right.

• 26:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And then you're putting it on a credit card.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  And you never anticipate what it's actually going to build up to, what you're going to have to pay at the end of it.

• 26:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And then as you're putting on the credit card, you're putting on the credit card and then you're paying the minimums on the credit card. And then at one point, you know, cause nobody looks at their mail. One day you do open it and you're like, oh shit. And it's second place or it's not even qualifying. Or it's your immune system is bad because you were at a party the night before the thing because you agree, yeah. And, and you just, or your spouse walks out on you. There's all these things that you don't know where the cost is being incurred. But just because you're not quantifying it, doesn't mean it's not accumulating.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And I think. As disappointed as we can be in those moments, I was actually overcome with quite a bit of gratitude there, just in the fact that I'm able to have this learning opportunity come to me at such an early stage in my career, learn how to adjust, navigate, and make sure that those mistakes don't happen again when the games come to my hometown in LA in three years.

• 27:25Ryan Holiday?

  Better to learn it in India than Los Angeles.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly.

• 27:29Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think you'll actually learn it?

• 27:30Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 27:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  I would say, uh...

• 27:33Ryan Holiday?

  Because that's the problem. Life sort of gives us these reminders. It happens and then... And then tomorrow, you got a, you know, a bunch of requests and you're like, I think I can do it.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  Right. And, and, and also, what is that sort of, uh, philosophy? Or that sort of mental structure where it's like, oftentimes, things that it's better to be, I think, I don't remember. I think it's Chris Williamson who said this. He was like, it's better to be sometimes in a way worse position because you have more activation energy to get out of that than if something slightly goes wrong.

• 28:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  Because if something's slightly going wrong, maybe you're in a little bit of an uncomfortable position. There's not enough activation energy for people to really pull themselves out of it.

• 28:11Ryan Holiday?

  You can lie to yourself about it more easily.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  In this case, though, I feel like I'm on, this is, this is one of the more difficult few weeks of my entire life, competing at this world championships, you know, knowing all that I put in and not feeling like I was prepared. And so I would like to think I'll learn from this, but time will tell. If I'm on the podium, excuse me, when I'm on the podium with three gold medals in LA in 2028, we can look back on this and I can say, you know what? I did learn from it, but we'll see. Time will tell.

• 28:38Ryan Holiday?

  But it is interesting, right? Like, we have our sort of larger purpose, which is meaningful and over a long time span. And, and, and then we end up defaulting, though, to the much more easily measurable metrics. If I told you you could radically change people's idea of disabilities and whatever, but you were gonna never stand on the podium again.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  I would accept that like this in a heartbeat.

• 29:07Ryan Holiday?

  Right. But day to day, you're evaluating your progress on your race.

• 29:13Ryan Holiday?

  Times and whether you're on the podium or not, right? Like, people do this with money, right? They go like, you picked this thing that is of all the things, not the most lucrative. Like, you could have gotten into cryptocurrency or hedge funds or what? There's so many, if all you cared about was optimizing for money, there's many things you could choose. And so people don't choose that. They choose social work or, you know, this or that. And then, though, once they're in there, they're like measuring themselves against other people. By what kind of car they drive or how nice their house is. It's like, you already said money was not the most important thing to you. But because the other thing isn't as quantifiable, you're kind of whipping yourself day to day.

• 29:53Ryan Holiday?

  Or you're making individual decisions based on money, even though you've already made, you've already asserted your larger purpose as not that. Like, I remember, I think I talked about this in one of my books, but, so I told you I worked at American Apparel, and the founder is this kind of weird Elon Musk-esque character. And I remember someone, their big thing was they manufactured all their clothes in the US. And someone was saying like, hey, I don't know, like, obviously you know this, but I'm just reiterating it to you that you should, if you move the factory to Mexico, you'd make a lot more money. And he was like, if all I cared about was making money, is what the owner said. He's like, I would have just become a drug dealer. And I think about that all the time. It's like, oh, yeah, he, he chose this thing because he loves this thing,

• 30:38Ryan Holiday?

  not because it's the way to maximize profits. So why would he make individual decisions that are designed to maximize profits, right? And so that's kind of the paradox is like, we had this larger purpose, and that's how we'll evaluate our life as a whole. But then day to day, we're like, does this get me more money? Does this get me more fame? Does this get me more this?

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:58Ryan Holiday?

  And then we wonder why we don't end up doing the bigger, larger goal.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Right, which, which is an interesting dichotomy. That's an interesting balance between you have, the reality is, you can have sort of long-term goals, but you have to have things in the short term to sort of keep yourself accountable as you get towards them. And it's making sure that those things are actually still in line.

• 31:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  And that's why, yes, I know that getting a silver medal. At this world championships, I'm not actually getting further away from maybe my larger purpose or the goals I want to accomplish. But part of that purpose, in my opinion, is the opportunity to elevate Paralympic sport because of what the Paralympics can do to change perceptions about people with disabilities. And the reality is, in the Paralympics, or let's just say in any other sport movement, you have a person that is able to transcend the movement and bring it into the mainstream.

• 31:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Swimming wasn't on national TV the same way until Michael Phelps came along.

• 31:54Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Women's basketball, you can make an argument, recently hasn't reached new heights until Caitlin Clark comes along. UFC was popular, but Conor McGregor took it to a whole nother level. I think that there's the opportunity for someone to do that for the Paralympics. And I feel like it's my duty to be that person. And so that's why the not winning has an added layer of frustration because I feel like I have the opportunity to elevate the movement and I have to win in order to do that, if that makes sense.

• 32:24Ryan Holiday?

  No, it totally makes sense. It sounds like your parents did a really good job when you were young of like building you up. Like of making you feel like you could be the person that could do that.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  Absolutely. My parents are the reason I am confident, secure. I mean, living with a disability, not fucking easy. Everywhere I went in public as a young kid, everywhere you had people staring and pointing fingers and whispering. I felt like a zoo animal for so many years of my life. I felt ostracized from society in a way. And the values and lessons that my parents instilled in me as a young kid completely helped shape the confidence that I believe I exhibit today. For example, I would be really insecure as a young kid and my mom would always tell me, she said, my whole upbringing, you walk into every room with your chin up, your chest out, and you walk in like you own the place.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  You don't retreat to that insecurity about your disability. And so growing up, every room I walked into, I had my chin up, my chest held high. My parents never treated me any different. They, I participated in sports my whole childhood. They, you know, encouraged me to go after my dreams. And so then over time, I became this kid who was Hyper confident in what he believed he was able to do regardless of disability or not. And that just came from the words that my parents constantly reiterated to me throughout my childhood.

• 33:50Ryan Holiday?

  Where do you think they learned how to do that? Like, did they have experience?

• 33:52Speaker 03

  No, I was the first kid. Imagine your first child is born with a disability. And my parents were real environmental advocates up until that point. And then they sort of realized that, you know, the environment has plenty of people advocating for it, but that people with disabilities really don't. And so they sort of made it our family mission to be disability advocates. We have a nonprofit in LA that my dad ran and still runs called Angel City Sports, where we provide sports opportunities for people with physical disabilities. And so the whole family just shifted towards disability, but they haven't had any prior experience in raising a kid, had all these values. They just, I don't know, intuitively understood how to fill me up with confidence and make me secure in myself. And I think they should write a parenting book. I don't know.

• 34:37Ryan Holiday?

  Well, reading about it, it must have been scary and hard for them in the sense that it was a process. Like, in the sense that you were born a certain way, but then there were a bunch of different surgeries and probably insanely difficult decisions that they had to make. That affect you, but you can't like, you can't, 20-year-old, you can't go back and be like, hey, I'm gonna feel great about this. They're worried like, you're gonna hate them forever.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  They amputated a leg. So I had a left leg that was curved up towards my waist. And it wouldn't have been functional as I work to continue to grow. And then I had one finger on my left hand. And so they traveled the world trying to find doctors that would basically propose a solution to make my life the most functional moving forward. An amputation, some doctor says this thing, some... And so they had to basically make a decision that was gonna permanently affect their child's life.

• 35:29Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Without, you're right, his consent or understanding or any of that. And so they made the decision to amputate my left leg right at the knee and then do a toe-to-hand transplant from the left foot on my left hand so that I could pick up and hold things. And, I mean, they have a lot of stories about, they canceled a surgery, actually, in the 11th. Hour like right before because they had a gut feeling that it was wrong.

• 35:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  Just so much went on, but it's crazy to think about. I sometimes forget. And now that you're mentioning it, it's making me really think about it again. But it's insane to have to make decisions like that for your.

• 36:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, there's a, there's this guy named Chesty Puller, who was one of the most decorated Marines in American history. Went through some of the worst battles of the Second World War. There's this story, you know, so you think he's like the hardest guy in the world. And there's this story about having to like, take his daughter and it, and you'll experiences at some point. But like, the hardest part as a parent, if you ever had a kid do any kind of serious medical procedure, is the like, when you give your kid to this person. And then that walk down the hallway where they're being like wheeled away from. It's just like the heartbreaking worst, most vulnerable moment you'll ever, you'll ever go through. And he, you know, he's, she's getting her tonsils out, like something minor. But he's like, he's giving it to the doctor and he comes back to his wife and he's just weeping.

• 36:46Ryan Holiday?

  And he says, you know, that, that was worse than Pellul, I think. That was worse than like, one of the worst invasions of World War Two. And you go, yeah, because in this moment, the thing, basically they say like, having a kid is like having your heart outside your body. And you're like having to give that thing to someone else that you've met once, to like, cut them open or do this terrible thing to them. And I can only imagine that, like, they, obviously you do all the research, you think, and then you're like, hope we're fucking making the right decision.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's crazy.

• 37:20Ryan Holiday?

  Crazy.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  That's so crazy. And it makes sense. And you know, my mom always told me growing up, she's like, you will never understand how much I love you until you have a kid of your own. And my, you know, my family and my parents, they're, those are the people I do it for. That's my village. Those are my biggest supporters in the world. But I can't even imagine what it must have been like to have to. You know, because this is 15 hours, 15 hours. Once again, amputating and cutting me open like.

• 37:46Ryan Holiday?

  And then all the recovery.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  And then all the recovery afterwards. You know, we didn't even know if the surgery was going to be successful. The, my, my body might not have taken on the new finger. They were connecting nerves and tendons and arteries. There was a memory I have actually when I was, I don't even know how long post-surgery, but I was in the bathtub and I was in the bath for an extended period of time. And my new thumb, my new finger, which was the toe wrinkled in the bath for the first time, which is the sign that the body has accepted it. And my parents freaked out and were celebrating and crying and, you know, as a young kid, I maybe didn't fully process it, but I just got chills retelling the story. That that was the first sign that my body had accepted it. The surgery had been fully successful, which is crazy. Imagine it wasn't successful.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  You do all that and it still doesn't work. That was the risk they were taking.

• 38:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Well, and there's also this struggle as a parent because it's like you, you have this idea of what your kid is going to be. And then everyone gets not that or not the average. You get your kid and every kid is different and every kid is not what you expect. And then there's this process of having to go, oh, this is the assignment that we got. And it's not maybe the assignment that we expected. It's certainly not the easiest assignment and it's not what our neighbor's assignment is or what all the other parent. And then you go, oh, I gotta figure out what's being asked of me here and what the job is here and what success is here. And like you're their first kid. And so like first off, they just have no experience and they definitely have no experience in that specific thing.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:21Ryan Holiday?

  It must've been incredible.

• 39:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I love that assignment analogy. It's like, yeah, you don't know what homework assignment you're about to get in some way.

• 39:29Ryan Holiday?

  But that's life. And I think what Stoic philosophy is also saying is like, everyone gets a fucking assignment. And sometimes it's a, a very privileged assignment and sometimes it's a very powerless assignment, but like your job is to play that hand well.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And you know, controlling your mind is the first step to being able to manage those external circumstances. Funny enough, my dad, actually, for you know, all of my sort of elementary into middle school and even sometimes in high school years, he would, he would just write, send me motivational quotes or things like that. And around my track competitions, but actually, he was subscribed to your newsletter.

• 40:06Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, really?

• 40:06Speaker 03

  And he would be, he would always send me, you know, whatever the write-up of the day was. And so I went back and I looked at a couple of them today and I was just like, back in my email, I just scrolled down and I was like, wow, that's really cool to see.

• 40:19Ryan Holiday?

  Well, to go to the point about like someday, all your friends also grow up. That's the other thing is you do a thing long enough and then people are like, oh yeah, I've been reading your stuff since I was 12. And you're like, I, you don't feel like, like, like you could be old, like I just did, The Obstacle is the Way just had its 10th anniversary and it's like, I don't feel like a person who could have a 10 year old book. That's not how it feels to me. But then time is just always sort of working on you.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:48Ryan Holiday?

  And you, you go from like the young to the not young and then one day you wake up and you have gray hair and stuff. It's a, it's a weird process.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. No, it's, it's, it's totally surreal. And it's, I think that's sort of the beauty of it all, which is like, as you're going through something, sometimes you don't maybe appreciate it as much as possible. And that's something that I've tried to really think about, which is, I love the quote one, I don't remember where I got it from. It was like, it's hard to stop and smell the roses when you're riding on a horseback.

• 41:18Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  And it's hard, I can imagine, as you're constantly in pursuit and a million things are happening and you're going after these goals that you set for yourself, to then really appreciate the moment. But then when you look back 10 years later, you go, oh my gosh, I've been, you know what I mean? I have so much appreciation for those early moments or this or that.

• 41:48Ryan Holiday?

  Well, every athlete I've ever talked to has, that's retired, has all, they always say they wish they'd enjoyed playing more. Because it's the exact tension you're talking about, which is you're so driven and you're so, you've so locked into, you know, like, winning is good and losing is bad, that you're missing, like, Bruce Springsteen says, like, they call it playing for a reason. Like, you get to do a fun thing professionally, but you can suck the fun out of it by going, like, losing is bad, and it sucks to have to lose. Because what you're missing is that, like, you're missing all the people that wanted even a chance to compete, that didn't make it, and then all the people whose dream it was

• 42:32Ryan Holiday?

  to play that sport, or music, or whatever, that dropped it along the way. So you're only comparing yourself against the two people in front of you, or the one person in front of you, or against the 10 other competitors in the heat that you're in. And you're not going, hey, actually, if I zoom out, you know, compared to all the other people that have ever done this sport, or want to do this sport, I'm on the podium. And then, I think in your case, to be like, what's the average life quality of the person born the way that you were born? And then go, oh shit, it's all fucking gravy from here.

• 43:08Speaker 03

  That's a great point. And it's something that I am continuing to grapple with, which is, I love what I do.

• 43:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 03

  I'm so blessed. I get to travel around the world, go to cool places, compete in a sport that I love. I'm so grateful. I wake up every day and go to the track and love this. I love the recovery. I love getting great sleep. Like, this is my life, and I enjoy it so intentionally. And in that same vein, though.

• 43:35Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  I also hold myself to a ridiculously high standard.

• 43:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  And believe that I'm capable of... Becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time. And then if I'm capable of it, to not accomplish it would be an insult to all of the people that believe in me or is behind me and even myself.

• 43:53Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  And I remember, so one of the, one of the newsletters that my dad sent me that I reread today was about manifestation and about how the Stoics didn't really believe in manifestation. They believed in action and that action is sort of the one thing you need to add to manifestation.

• 44:10Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  To make it happen. And I am.

• 44:13Ryan Holiday?

  Thinking about it is.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  Thinking about it is nothing unless you do.

• 44:16Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  Thinking about it is worthless if you're not actually intentionally trying to pursue that thing. And so, you know, I do wholeheartedly believe that if you are thinking about something and then also in pursuit of that thing aggressively, I think you have a higher likelihood of accomplishing it than if you have no emotional attachment, don't care at all.

• 44:38Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  But, you know, I, I read that this morning and it reminded me of just sort of this whole process of like, action is everything here and it's the person who takes action, who takes more action that will be more successful. Oftentimes just thinking about it means you're going to take more action a little bit.

• 44:56Ryan Holiday?

  Was your dad really into sports or was it a surprise for them that you went this direction?

• 45:01Speaker 03

  My dad was into sports in a way. He almost went pro in skateboarding. He could have done well in soccer. He was a great athlete, but never, no one in my fam- no one in my family has pursued anything athletically. I'm from a Persian family that, you know, on paper doesn't have the greatest athletic genes. One time there was, we were actually at a, at a family party and there was, someone had to climb through a window to unlock a door, it got jammed or whatever. And they were about to send me and then all my, you know, family, they were like, no, we can't send the only child that has any athletic potential into this.

• 45:33Ryan Holiday?

  What does it say about him?

• 45:34Speaker 03

  We have to keep him healthy, but so, yeah, no real athletic genes in the family.

• 45:38Ryan Holiday?

  It seems like they had the drive to be elite at things, which is, I think sometimes people go, think that like, oh, they're into sports, but actually you find like sports, acting, entrepreneurship, it's all the same.

• 45:52Ryan Holiday?

  Same kind of drive to perfect and perform and be really good at something.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. That makes sense. And they did have that.

• 46:02Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 46:02Speaker 03

  And have had that.

• 46:03Ryan Holiday?

  So, so I imagine they probably understood that given some of the struggles you were going to go through and some of the maybe confidence issues, that having a thing that you could control and throw yourself into would be really good for you.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And the reality is, sports is really powerful for that.

• 46:24Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  It's one of the many, maybe universal connectors in a way, where you can bring people together from totally different backgrounds, totally different experiences, and they're playing a sport together. There's a level of connection. And so for me, that was my way in to finding friends, finding myself, building confidence. The nature of my disability, I was able to just keep up with my friends, play sports all throughout elementary school. Most people with disabilities can't do that.

• 46:51Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  Their disabilities might be more severe. Even the ones that do integrate face massive discrimination.

• 46:56Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 46:56Speaker 03

  That's why we have the nonprofit for people who aren't able to fully integrate in a way.

• 47:01Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 47:01Speaker 03

  But that's why I gravitated towards sports because I felt like I belonged.

• 47:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  Everywhere I would go throughout the day, I didn't feel like I belonged. But then when I stepped on the court, when I stepped on the track, I felt like one of the guys, and that was powerful.

• 47:14Ryan Holiday?

  And to have something that you're excellent at or that you're dominating at, that's, it's like, I am enough. Or, but that can be the tricky part is that you pick up early on that I'm only good when I achieve or I accomplish.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Right. Which is why the foundation of I am enough who I am.

• 47:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  And I love this quote that I heard one time where it was like, it's not about the journey and it's not about the destination. It's about who you become in pursuit

• 47:44Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  of the destination. Like in pursuit of your goals, the person you become is more powerful than the destination or the journey itself. And for me, you know, my parents made sure that I was confident in who I was and sports was a part of that. My family was a part of that. My work ethic was a part of that. My dreams, right? Every variable that impacted my life, of course, is going to play a role in my confidence, but that foundation was strong thanks to them.

• 48:07Ryan Holiday?

  Is it exhausting, though, having to be a representative of something? Like, I read this thing from John Thompson once, who's one of the first black coaches in college basketball. And he was saying, like, the one thing about my career is I never just got to be a basketball coach. He's always a black basketball coach, or he's always the first of this. Or he has to represent a community in a way that insert random other coach, athlete, whatever, doesn't have to be.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  I can understand what he's saying. And if you don't intentionally sign up for that, I can see how one might be annoyed by that over an extended period of time.

• 48:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  I'm grateful for it. I love it. The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride. I am so grateful to have that opportunity to represent this community, whether it be representing Team USA, whether it be representing my family lineage, whether it be representing all 1 billion people with a physical disability. I have so much gratitude that that's even the opportunity that I have. And it can be difficult in the sense that a lot of people come up and they go, well, that's so much pressure. You're putting so much pressure on yourself. And, you know, I don't feel the pressure. I wouldn't say that I, I almost feel like we oftentimes convince ourselves of things a little bit too much, and then they become a reality. So, you know, my mom, growing up, every time I was nervous or worried about something,

• 49:30Speaker 03

  she'd always be like, you're not nervous, you're excited. And the body is the same thing, like convince yourself you're excited about these things. And so, you know, and I'm not even just like saying this to convince myself of it. It's become my reality, which is I love this opportunity. I see it as an opportunity. I don't see it as anything negative.

• 49:49Ryan Holiday?

  There must be moments where it would be nice to just not have to carry that around. Like, in the sense of like, like, I don't know, like, you think about what other people can get away with, right? That don't see themselves as a representative. So they can be like, like, one athlete can throw a temper tantrum and be an asshole in the way that perhaps Katelyn Clark cannot. Right? Or LeBron James as a high schooler to pro, there's a different set of expectations and he's having to prove a thing that, again, insert regular player does not have to think about. Do you ever feel like you're carrying a weight that's not yours that, and you get tired of that?

• 50:28Speaker 03

  You know, that's a really interesting point and it makes sense on paper. I can't say that I've ever felt like I'm carrying a burden that, that isn't mine. I feel like I put this on myself.

• 50:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  And so I feel like I've strengthened my shoulders and back enough that I know the weight that I'm carrying. I have it on my shoulders. And if anything, it's like, that's sort of the, the drive behind all of it. So even if there is something that maybe to someone else might seem like a negative, I haven't even in my head registered that thing as negative because I see it as a part of this larger purpose. Like, yes, on paper, I am not a normal college student. I don't have the luxury, luxury that most college kids, where they can just hang out and chill all day and go do this and hang out with their friends.

• 51:11Ryan Holiday?

  Cause they don't like it anymore.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  And quit cause I don't like it anymore. Or go to a party and stay out super late. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm in bed, super early. I'm getting good sleep. I'm not out. I don't drink or do any of this other stuff. And so to the average person, that looks like one of those things that sucks. What a burden. You have to do this. You have to do that. You have to get up and go to the track, but I see it as, I love this shit. I, this is so enjoyable. And so I don't even characterize it as a negative thing. Or for example, I don't eat, I don't eat sugar. I don't eat any desserts. A year round. And my family's think, my family thinks I'm crazy. Like just have one bite of the cake. I don't, I won't even have one bite. One bite, nothing.

• 51:48Ryan Holiday?

  Cause off the table.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  Off the table. And to the average person, it's like, what a miserable life. But it's like, no, I love this. I love eating the steaks. I love eating healthy. I love the opportunity to be in better shape when the season rolls around and perform at the highest level. So I don't see it as a negative, if that makes sense.

• 52:03Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you were just saying your, your mom's like, when you go in, you gotta have your chest out and your chin up. And like, I gotta imagine, especially when you're a kid, there's moments where you're like, I just wanna soak into this room and feel sorry for myself.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 52:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. But you don't get to, or you don't allow yourself to, or do sometimes?

• 52:20Speaker 03

  The philosophy that my parents sort of instilled in me is not that I am to be void of any negative or insecure feelings, but rather feel them, accept them, and then remind myself of the things that helped me work through them. And so. I had many moments growing up where, yes, I would cry to my parents as a young kid and say, why did God give me one leg? And why am I the only kid in my school with a disability? And that's of course tough. And in the same vein, I have moments on the track, like a few weeks ago, where I'm, you know, really struggling and sort of battling my own insecurities of, am I good enough? Am I, you know, able to accomplish these larger goals?

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Am I the athlete that I say I am, that I vocalize? Like, who am I? Of course, it's just about learning to navigate through that. And I feel like that's what I've become really good at, is in those moments, sort of picking myself back up and piecing myself back together and then, and then moving forward, almost even stronger because of sort of those darker moments. I really have felt a lot of them. I mean, there was, there was one point where I sort of had this realization as a young kid where I was like sulking in this really dark place. And I thought to myself, well, I genuinely can't change this. I can't change the fact that I have a physical disability. I'm not benefiting myself at all by just sulking in this place. Why don't I just say, fuck it, and make the most out of my life?

• 53:45Ryan Holiday?

  That's very stoic.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  It's those moments that have, have shaped me into the person I am.

• 53:50Ryan Holiday?

  Did your dad ever send you any emails about Epictetus?

• 53:53Speaker 03

  Maybe. I didn't, I didn't, I just looked at a few of them. I didn't.

• 53:55Ryan Holiday?

  So Epictetus is one of the Stoic philosophers. So he's born a slave or into slavery, spends 30 years of his life in slavery. And he's owned by this sort of cruel master. And so there's one scene that we hear about where the master is just like sadistically torturing him for some reason. And he, he ends up breaking Epictetus's leg. And in a way, or back then, when the medical care was so bad, it, it doesn't heal right. And so he walks with this limp the rest of his life. So he's no, if you see some of the ancient etchings or drawings of Epictetus, he's usually with a crutch because this, this leg is lame, as the, the parlance of the day was. And so he has this famous quote where he goes like, lameness is a disability of the leg, but not of the mind.

• 54:40Ryan Holiday?

  And his point was that like, it actually doesn't really matter that much that my body is disabled in some way. Because for the Stoics, the only thing that mattered was. What we think about it and no physical injury to the body affects how we think about. That is still in our control. And so ironically, or interestingly, Stoicism is at its core, sort of a philosophy built around, how do you make sense of and integrate something like this into your life?

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Absolutely. That's a beautiful quote because in many ways, probably makes him more mentally resilient.

• 55:15Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. It's a metaphor.

• 55:16Speaker 03

  It's a metaphor, you know? And so, you know, I definitely resonate with that and that's, that's super true. I feel I'm not the person I am today without my disability. People ask me all the time, they say, oh, do you think you would be super successful this or that? If you had two legs or whatever? And I say, absolutely not. The grit and the way I approach my goals and the person I am is a direct product of the stuff I've gone through, of my disability, of the experiences I've had. The same way, you know, you're, you're not the same person without those, those real difficult times.

• 55:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it would probably, you would be normal in the non-positive sense. Like you would probably just be like everyone else you went to school with.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  And everything I'm trying to be right now is the antithesis of normal.

• 56:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And normal is, it's, it's ordinary versus extraordinary.

• 56:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 56:06Ryan Holiday?

  Right? You would be ordinary, you'd have all the facilities and, you know, advantages of everyone. And then the disadvantage would be that you would take those things for granted. And when things were hard, you would probably quit. Or when you, when something didn't go your way, you would accept it. And you, you probably also, your parents would have probably not been so intentional about the lessons and the values that they imparted because they would have gone like, he'll figure it out. It's not that hard, you know?

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 56:37Ryan Holiday?

  Instead, they had to sort of put you through a kind of a training school for the life that, you know, if you didn't have certain skills was awaiting you. And then they succeeded so much in that, that you became extraordinary instead of ordinary.

• 56:52Speaker 03

  Thank you. No, it's great. It's absolutely right. It's super interesting to think about and it's such a fun thought experiment. Cause you don't realize it, similarly to how we were talking about that oftentimes you don't realize. Maybe how things add up over time until you get to a point that's maybe easily, easily understood or easily marked.

• 57:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  In the same way that, you know, you don't realize how much of your life is tied to certain parts of your identity until you take a real step back and think about it. And, you know, I don't think of myself as just a disabled person. When I think of myself throughout the day, I don't think, oh, I have one leg and two fingers all the time. That doesn't cross my mind. But then when you really take a step back and think about how many parts of my life and personality and character and upbringing has been tied to navigating something that is such a big part of my physical life, it's super interesting. You know, who am I without that?

• 57:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you think you want it to go a certain way, or you want to be dealt a certain hand. And it doesn't really matter what you think, because you don't get to say.

• 58:00Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 58:00Ryan Holiday?

  But, but it turns out that oftentimes what you got, if you respond right, turns out to be exactly the right thing.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  It all impacts who you become. I was doing this radio interview and I was a young kid and I was maybe 10 or 11. And they asked me this question. They said, if you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability, would you do it? And my dad was there. It was the first time I had ever been asked a question like that. And I looked the host dead in the eyes and I was like, absolutely not.

• 58:30Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  And my dad said it was really special for him to hear that.

• 58:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Because that had mean I had really come around to accepting who I was and in fact, loving that part of myself.

• 58:40Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. And just the, the, for them having, it's like now you have the weight of it as opposed to them. Right? You know what I mean?

• 58:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:49Ryan Holiday?

  It's like they, they took you to a certain point and now you're walking on your own, like sort of metaphorically.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  If I had the opportunity to go back, I wouldn't because that's how appreciative I am for the person that I've become.

• 59:01Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, that's beautiful. That's, they're like, he's gonna be all right.

• 59:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:06Ryan Holiday?

  You wanna go check out some books?

• 59:07Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

• 59:09Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode.