Ari Emanuel on his New Memoir, ‘Ragent’ Reputation, and Changing Hollywood

Ari Emanuel built a name for himself in Hollywood as a firebrand agent filled with rage. In his new memoir, “Roll the Calls,” he reflects on how that rage shaped his career and argues it helped him transform the entertainment industry. He’s now the executive chair and CEO of TKO and executive chairman of the WME Group. In a live conversation hosted by Live Talks Los Angeles, Kara and Ari talk about the ways growing up in the shadow of two talented older brothers shaped his perception of himself, and why Kara believes the book reveals a softer side of the notoriously fiery “ragent.” They also talk about David Ellison and the Paramount-Warner Bros. Discovery merger, the arrival of AI in Hollywood, and why Ari continues to talk to Elon Musk and President Trump. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  Ari was very sweet to me and he gave me a hat as I got in here. And it says rage, which I thought was very cute. And the note said, I'll just read it really quickly for you. Oh, I can't find it. He basically said, "Thank you so much for doing this and if it doesn't go well, fuck you."

• 0:19Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Ari Emanuel, Executive Chair and CEO of TKO and the Executive Chairman of the WME Group. We spoke in front of a live audience during an event hosted by LiveTalk's Los Angeles. His long history in Hollywood includes co-founding the talent agency Endeavor, then merging it with the William Morris Agency to create one of the largest talent representation firms in the country.

• 1:00Kara Swisher?

  He brought WWE and UFC together with his sports enterprise TKO and also founded the live events company Mari. His new memoir, Roll the Calls, is out now, and actually it's about his agenting. He calls himself a ragent. Of course, you know him from the show Entourage, Ari Gold, but it's not the same. And actually, it's a really gripping and interesting book that is, I think, unintended, quite painfully talking about himself, and it's worth a read. Our expert question today comes from his famous brothers, Rahm and Zeke Emanuel. Rahm is a former mayor of Chicago and served as a White House Chief of Staff under President Obama. He was also the ambassador to Japan. Zeke is an oncologist, bioethicist, and health policy expert at the University of Pennsylvania

• 1:45Kara Swisher?

  and served as a senior policy advisor in the Obama administration. Most importantly, they are his brothers. It's quite a trio, and Ari is my least favorite Emanuel, as I like to tell him. So stick around.

• 1:56Speaker 02

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• 3:04Speaker 04

  I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We talk all about attending a fashion show in Paris together, throwing dinner parties, and making her Broadway debut in other desert cities. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 3:36Kara Swisher?

  Ari, thanks for coming on.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you.

• 3:48Kara Swisher?

  So, we're gonna, we're gonna start with all the feels at this top, but we're not gonna be talking about the following, if you don't mind. We're not talking about Ari Gold.

• 3:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 4:00Kara Swisher?

  I don't give a fuck about him. Eating worms in your demented health regimen, which is just a way--

• 4:05Speaker 05

  You don't give a fuck about that.

• 4:06Kara Swisher?

  I don't at all. I don't care when you die.

• 4:08Speaker 05

  Okay, great. Thank God.

• 4:10Kara Swisher?

  Your manic travel schedule.

• 4:11Speaker 05

  Don't give a fuck about that.

• 4:12Kara Swisher?

  I don't. And the porn scene in The Departed. So, I'm sorry if you're here to hear about that, but we're not gonna do that. But the first line of your memoir is a Raul Walsh quote. He's a director, about work, in fact, how important it is, and doing the work, which is what I think this book is actually about. And I think this is a work drama, more than anything else, that you've done here, about power and who has it and who doesn't, and how to get it, essentially. I don't think it's about rage, actually, even though you talk about rage all the time and at the beginning of the book. And I do think that is your, what I call the jazz hands brand, like mine as being a spiky lesbian.

• 4:50Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, you're a spiky lesbian?

• 4:53Kara Swisher?

  I am, indeed.

• 4:54Speaker 05

  Oh, Jesus.

• 4:55Kara Swisher?

  Very, quite spiky. But you lay it on thick, and I'm gonna quote you. "Every story starts with rage and every story, one way or another, ends up there. Rage or be complicit. We fight and we fuck. Wrestling without rage is just cuddling. There is no little enemy. History has been shaped by bad moods as much as good intentions." And of course, you coined the phrase ragent, which is what you are, a raging agent, I suppose. But talk about, what has your tough guy facade enabled you to do over the course of your career? And how has it helped or hurt you?

• 5:28Speaker 05

  Can I just say the following?

• 5:29Kara Swisher?

  You're in a rage.

• 5:30Speaker 05

  So, I think, exactly. So Cormac McCarthy, I think, said rage is there for the things that you can fix. The rest is grief. And I think that actually kinda is me, you know? I would rather get to the rage and deal with the rage and try and find an identity, because in my family, as you know my brothers very well, there was Zeke, the smart one, Rahm, the artist, and the other one.

• 5:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 05

  And--

• 6:01Kara Swisher?

  And let me say in advance, I'm sorry for calling you my least favorite Emanuel.

• 6:04Speaker 05

  It's okay. They're great.

• 6:06Kara Swisher?

  Yes, they are great, yeah. But go ahead.

• 6:08Speaker 05

  So, when you have that, and, you know, and you come into the house, and the grades go up, and you're dyslexic, and in my house, that was important, like from an immigrant father and a mother, you know? And so, you get pissed off because you're not stupid, and you wanna find your place. And then work, I only had, when I got out here with, and I came out here, my friend Pete Berg was out here, I had Plan A. There was no Plan B.

• 6:46Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 6:47Speaker 05

  And I would do anything for Plan A because I wanted to have an identity. And this thing, for whatever reason, flipped the switch in me. And there was no way I was gonna let anybody stand in my way to getting to this place. And I didn't even know where it was. I just was like, one, I loved it. I was happy about it. It was difficult, but I had to get to my identity. And anything that stood in my way created rage.

• 7:21Kara Swisher?

  But why use the word rage? And you were quoting from--

• 7:23Speaker 05

  I was fucking pissed. When somebody fucked with my own story in my head--

• 7:27Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 7:28Speaker 05

  --of the chess match I was playing to get to where I wanted to be, like in wrestling, I didn't like that dude. And that's what caused a lot of--

• 7:42Kara Swisher?

  But who precisely were you mad at in the first place?

• 7:46Speaker 05

  Well, that was, that, that took a lot of onion peeling, right? I didn't know at the beginning. That's when Dr. Calm came in.

• 7:55Kara Swisher?

  This is his therapist in the book.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  So, it was, it was, I was just mad. I had no kind of destiny or person. And kinda, I was looking for a place where I could be recognized as being really good. And also, the rage came from, I think, my, this is me being my own Dr. Calm, you know, not wanting to be discovered as the stupid brother.

• 8:30Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:31Speaker 05

  Right? Or that somebody would discover that you're not smart. And so, when you're just battling in your own mind, and it's a tough business anyway--

• 8:40Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  You know, you, you just work really hard, there's a lot of people standing in your way, and you have a place you think you wanna get to, true or imaginary.

• 8:51Kara Swisher?

  So bullying through is the way to do so?

• 8:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's how, that's how I did it, until the point in time I realized, when we had Endeavor, I couldn't get even farther with just rage and aggression with people that worked for me, that were loyal to me and loyal.

• 9:08Kara Swisher?

  So, sometimes it manifested in actual violence, like you hit someone with a lunch tray?

• 9:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, when I was young.

• 9:14Kara Swisher?

  Oh, well, you know. You know. It was when I was--

• 9:18Speaker 05

  Well, he was making--

• 9:19Kara Swisher?

  I know, I--

• 9:20Speaker 05

  Here's the other thing. He was making fun of somebody, because I was in special ed.

• 9:23Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:24Speaker 05

  And he was making fun of somebody.

• 9:25Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  And somebody I knew. And, you know, I asked him not to do it. Stop. And he decided not to do that.

• 9:33Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  And so, okay, there's only, it's like picking up a chair in Mike Owens' office. There's only one other play.

• 9:38Kara Swisher?

  Really?

• 9:39Speaker 05

  I'm gonna kick the shit out of you.

• 9:40Kara Swisher?

  There wasn't a play of, "I'll pour Jell-O on your head,"

• 9:43Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 9:44Kara Swisher?

  Or "I'll slap you silly."

• 9:45Speaker 05

  Because that wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't in the cards at that point.

• 9:47Kara Swisher?

  Really?

• 9:48Speaker 05

  It wasn't.

• 9:49Kara Swisher?

  That wasn't a choice for you?

• 9:50Speaker 05

  No.

• 9:51Kara Swisher?

  But it's kind of a speak--

• 9:52Speaker 05

  Depending on how this ends, if there's a lunch tray, you never know.

• 9:54Kara Swisher?

  See--

• 9:55Speaker 05

  Now, you know that's--

• 9:57Kara Swisher?

  No, I don't care. You can try. I don't think you're gonna win a throwdown with a lesbian. I just don't think it's happening for you. You're a little guy. I know you're a wrestler, but I have moves myself.

• 10:09Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 10:10Kara Swisher?

  I have the richest man in the world calling me evil, so I'm good. Like, I'll be good with you. It'll be simple. Although he's a lot slower and fatter. He doesn't move as fast. I'm talking about your pal. But anyway, we'll get to him in a minute. But it's a kind of a speak truth to power meme. And you make an argument in the book, which is really interesting, that anger negotiators are better, for example. But a person you trashed in the book, I'm not gonna tell you who it was, because there were so many, wrote to me, "I'm offended, as a member of the business world, that he espouses rage as positive behavior." How do you answer that?

• 10:49Speaker 05

  Fuck him.

• 10:50Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:53Kara Swisher?

  All right.

• 10:54Speaker 05

  And he's full of shit, whoever that one is, because I promise you, multiple people that you're talking about, in their own way, were rageful. Maybe they kept it in and they were trying to present, fuck them, they're full of shit. I'm walking to the room, you know exactly what you're gonna get, and I'm good with that. There's no, there's no kind of pretense. If the lights are on, guns are out, we're going.

• 11:19Kara Swisher?

  Actual guns?

• 11:19Speaker 05

  That's me.

• 11:20Kara Swisher?

  Okay. But answer that, seriously. Is it, is it, is it positive behavior? Is it the best way to go about things? I mean, you had a partner.

• 11:27Speaker 05

  First of all, it's not always that way.

• 11:30Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's, there's many levels to trying to negotiate and get what you want.

• 11:35Kara Swisher?

  Right, sure.

• 11:36Speaker 05

  One of them is that way.

• 11:39Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  And you gotta be backing it up. Great. Other ways? I wouldn't get to where I was if it was only rage.

• 11:47Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 11:48Speaker 05

  I've got some other moves.

• 11:49Kara Swisher?

  I understand that.

• 11:50Speaker 05

  I'm just letting you know.

• 11:51Kara Swisher?

  I know that. One of your moves is to call people incessantly, like you try to do with me. One thing I do to drive him crazy is I don't pick up.

• 11:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 11:58Kara Swisher?

  And then, like, he can text, right?

• 12:00Speaker 05

  I don't like that.

• 12:02Kara Swisher?

  I know, and if a normal fucking person texts you.

• 12:04Speaker 05

  But if texting existed, and then all of a sudden they created the phone, fuck, you can call somebody? That would be the cool thing.

• 12:12Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I don't pick up. I'm still acting. And the problem is, his poor...

• 12:16Speaker 05

  That was not my line. You know whose line that was? Ron Meyer's.

• 12:18Kara Swisher?

  Okay. But I thought this memoir actually reveals a lot about you, some of which might be unintentional. This is what I felt when I was reading. I recently told Scott Galloway on Pivot that it was accidentally thoughtful. What do you think? That's funny. What do you think this...

• 12:38Speaker 05

  I love that you laugh at yourself.

• 12:39Kara Swisher?

  I do, it was funny.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  Cracking yourself up.

• 12:41Kara Swisher?

  Well, I'm funny. So, what do you think it divulges about you? And I think it's, it's a more interesting story in how soft you might be, actually. So, and, and I thought that your ghostwriter, J.R. Mauger, got a lot out of you. How do you...

• 12:58Speaker 05

  Here's the, I guess here's how I live my life. You know, like, in computers, it was called RSI? Is it where there's, there, the computer, we're afraid of AI or SI, whatever the fuck they're calling it now?

• 13:11Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, we're not calling it that.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  We're gonna call it AI, right?

• 13:13Kara Swisher?

  Donald Trump just named it SI versus AI.

• 13:17Speaker 05

  Right. Whatever. Okay. Recursive self-improvement. And I think that's dangerous for SI, AI. But for humans, and this is what I try and do, and then I think this is what my parents taught us, me and my brothers. You know, you wanna live a meaningful life, as opposed to just a pleasurable life, and a meaningful life that has a purpose, that actually does bring you pleasure. And to do that, you have to constantly be working on yourself and trying to get better. And through all the mistakes you make. And I've made a lot, and I hopefully tell them what they are.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  And so I have tried, Arianna Huffington sent me this article about RSI, reflective self-improvement in computers, and that we should do it as humans. And it kind of struck me that, yeah, that's kind of how I live my life. And I hope to get, I don't, I'm not there yet, I'm gonna work until the end to get there, to constantly get better. I hope, I have two of my four kids here, I've become a better father. I think I've become, maybe not this last two weeks with my beautiful wife, a better husband, and a better person in a relationship. And I hope that I've become a better leader and partner to people in my company. And that's not a soft side, that's just somebody trying to get better.

• 14:47Kara Swisher?

  You know, soft is not a bad word, but, but I actually think it was there from the beginning. There's bits of it that get revealed that I'm not...

• 14:55Speaker 05

  Well, here's what I would say to you is, I'm a ride-or-die guy with people that I like. Unless you turn around and try and do something stupid. And you don't ever have to worry if I'm gonna be there for you. I'm gonna be right next to you, I'm gonna be in front of you, I'm gonna be doing everything to help you. And that's how my parents brought us up as three boys together. And they gave us our morals. And when I'm in a relationship, you don't have to worry whether I'm in that relationship, and that goes all the way back.

• 15:37Kara Swisher?

  I get that, but it's, it's more of, for example, the Robbie Lance part. He called you Ari, right?

• 15:43Speaker 05

  Right. He had this Austrian accent.

• 15:45Kara Swisher?

  Austrian accent. Clearly got to you, in a way. That was really interesting. I'm not sure if it was a cautionary tale of how not to end up, or perhaps somewhat of a doomed love letter to this guy. Talk a little bit about that relationship, because you clocked him right away.

• 16:01Speaker 05

  He taught me, you know, and I was like a sponge. He taught me the beginnings of what it meant to be an agent. And people called you back because of who you represented, and that wasn't a bad thing. And if you lost them in this game, it's part of the game, you just have to accept it. And it was just some lovely principles. And he was just a really nice man, and he treated me well, and he let me kind of experiment. But he was just a great beginning kind of teacher of the business. And when, you know, Mike Ovitz stole Al Pacino, and then put him in revolution, and, exactly. And it was okay.

• 16:45Speaker 05

  And he got that.

• 16:47Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 05

  And he said, you know, I'm not gonna do anything, I'm too old, go out. And he set a meeting through Bill Haber...

• 16:54Kara Swisher?

  To go there.

• 16:54Speaker 05

  To go there.

• 16:55Kara Swisher?

  But you did not conduct your career like this mentor of yours.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  No. Because I was, I didn't have those moves. I had my moves. And I'm not trying to be anybody else, I'm just trying to be me. And, you know, everybody's got their own shtick.

• 17:12Kara Swisher?

  Did his kindness scare you, because you didn't want to end up like that?

• 17:16Speaker 05

  No, no, no, not at all. No. And then I went to a place where you had guys that are on Mount Rushmore. I mean, Mike Ovitz on Mount Rushmore of this business, and he was incredible. And Ron Meyer was incredible. I remember, we all had to go to a screening on, I think it was on Beverly and Fairfax, there was a theater there. So we all piled into the theater. I'm sitting in the middle, movie comes on, I don't remember who the filmmaker was, what the movie was. And it was a piece of shit, that movie. We all, I'm sitting there, I'm like, what the fuck? I walk out, there's Mike Ovitz, there's Ron Meyer, talking to the filmmaker. And these guys were gods to me.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  And he's pitching it in, Ronnie says to him, incredible, he goes, this is bigger than E.T. And I'm like, holy fuck, that guy's good. You know? And you just, you had Robbie Lance, who had his style, and then you see these guys, and you just had to read about Mike, who was incredible, and Ronnie was incredible. And I learned under Bill Haber, incredible. And they just had a different style. And then I just got my style.

• 18:23Kara Swisher?

  Your style. So, one of the big themes, because I thought the Robbie Lance part was very touching in a lot of ways, and I was surprised.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  Wow, I touched you.

• 18:32Kara Swisher?

  Well, try not to.

• 18:33Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 18:36Kara Swisher?

  Literally, Ari called me up once and said, who would you rather fuck, Elon or me?

• 18:42Speaker 05

  I thought it was a pretty cool question. You paused. And you're still pausing.

• 18:51Kara Swisher?

  I'm never gonna answer that question. Xi Jinping. So, one, one big theme...

• 19:00Speaker 05

  Hold on.

• 19:00Kara Swisher?

  What?

• 19:01Speaker 05

  Imagine.

• 19:03Kara Swisher?

  One big theme is lack of permanence and feeling unsettled. There's a very unsettled feeling in this book, which I thought was really interesting, how nothing is enough. And you wrote, "We cling to the illusion of safety." I'd like you to talk about that, because of course it has links to your dyslexia, which seems to be driving your bus even today.

• 19:21Speaker 05

  A lot less.

• 19:23Kara Swisher?

  A lot less.

• 19:23Speaker 05

  Lot, lot less.

• 19:24Kara Swisher?

  But driving the bus really has... A lot to do with.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I'm there was a period of time. Doctor come goes to me. And I definitely was struggling with this being discovered, thinking people are going to realize I'm stupid that I can't do this. And Doctor come says to me, he says, you know, people that were really good in business were considered really smart. And I was like, wow, and kind of dealing with my mom and dad and my impression of them and how they thought about me. And then, I don't know if it was before or after, but I think it was after that, like a couple of months, my mom and dad fly in. My dad and his heavy Israeli accent asking me questions.

• 20:08Speaker 05

  I'm telling them, and we had just taken over William Morris. Merged and.

• 20:14Kara Swisher?

  We'll get to that.

• 20:15Speaker 05

  And.

• 20:16Kara Swisher?

  There's no such thing as a merger.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  No such thing.

• 20:18Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 05

  And I tell them everything going on. And I think it was my dad, he goes, well, who does all that? And I go, well, it's not fucking Ram and it's not fucking Zeke, right? So that was my life, you know, with these people and they loved me to death. But, you know, they never, one, they didn't understand it. And two was like, you know, smart one, the artist and the other one.

• 20:42Kara Swisher?

  The other one.

• 20:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. And they think they finally got it at the end. They kind of realized between all this.

• 20:48Kara Swisher?

  So it was a lifetime of proving to them.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:50Kara Swisher?

  That you weren't.

• 20:51Speaker 05

  And, you know, I said on occasion, just wanting a little bit more love than my brothers got, just a teeny bit on occasion. And that's a hell of an injure.

• 21:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it is. It's often not a great one, actually.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  But it's, you know.

• 21:05Kara Swisher?

  You know, one of my premises about a lot of people in tech is they didn't get hugged enough as children. And unfortunately, we're living their pain. All of us are, but.

• 21:15Speaker 05

  This is not a commentary about your life up there.

• 21:17Kara Swisher?

  I'm just telling you. It has, it has a lot of fuel. It has a lot of fuel in terms of.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  Well, it definitely drove me.

• 21:24Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  And that drive and that little moment was to prove my identity.

• 21:31Kara Swisher?

  Right, which is an ongoing struggle. I recall Sergey.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  A little less now.

• 21:35Kara Swisher?

  Sergey Brin's mother, who was a physicist, I was at a party where she was there and she's sort of a little Russian woman. And they were about to go public and she said, I said, you must be so proud of your son. And she looks at me, she goes, he didn't get his PhD.

• 21:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, when I, when I was, I come home, I'm working for Robbie. I come home, I have three days. I get to Chicago. My brothers are there. I could have gone to Northwestern and worked at the stock market, Merc. And I tell them I'm going to go work in the mailroom for 15 cents a mile. I don't know if people understand what that means now, you know? I think you had a base of $200 or 250. And then every mile you would clock and you would have to write down your miles and you'd get 15 cents and at the end of the week you would make money. And, you know, Pete Berg and I were living together and at the beginning I was living on a couch for eight months.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  And I would take all the food because he wasn't working. I would take all the food that was in the car and I'd bring it home so we could eat at night. But the level of both my brothers, my parents, they just couldn't comprehend this. And my brothers were like nailing me. And so.

• 22:51Kara Swisher?

  It made you the way you were.

• 22:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:53Kara Swisher?

  So you didn't feel safe in that regard.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  I don't know if the word was safe. I just knew, again, I said, I didn't have plan B. It was just plan A.

• 23:03Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Framer. If you want to create a website that looks great, feels handcrafted and comes together fast and seamlessly, then look no further than Framer. It's a complete website platform, not just a builder so teams can lodge and keep improving their sites in one place. It helps creators, teams and businesses ship production ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. You're able to prompt, inspect, edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace. On Framer, agents and humans work in tandem. Agents bring speed and scale while people bring taste, judgment and control.

• 23:46Kara Swisher?

  And it all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed and published. These ideas land on the canvas, stay editable and can be published when the team is ready. Framer is an enterprise level solution. Thousands of businesses from early stage startups to Fortune 500s are choosing to build their websites in Framer where changes take minutes instead of days. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/ Kara for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/ Kara. Rules and restrictions apply. Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Have you ever Googled yourself and found your home address, phone number, or the name of a family member?

• 24:31Kara Swisher?

  It's unsettling. Here's what you do to clean up your online data footprint. Go to joindelete.me/ Kara and enter the code Kara. You get 20% off Delete Me. Delete Me removes your personal information that's being sold online. Delete Me was named the top pick for data removal services by Wirecutter, so you know you're in good hands. I really like Delete Me. I use it all the time. It's always surprising how much data people have about me. I am very privacy forward and I still find so much stuff of mine online, some of which is incorrect, some of which is compiled in a really disturbing way. And you have to sort of control it like weeds. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me.

• 25:13Kara Swisher?

  Now, at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindelete.me/ Kara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindelete.me/ Kara and enter the code Kara at checkout. That's joindelete.me/ Kara code Kara. Support for this show comes from Hers. Losing weight on your own can often feel like a fight you never win. Luckily, weight loss by Hers offers access to the FDA approved Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Wegovy is the first ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill, but also comes as a pen. So you've got options.

• 25:56Kara Swisher?

  With Wegovy, you can lose up to 20% of your body weight. People lost an average of 14% body weight at 64 weeks in a clinical trial of Wegovy alongside diet and exercise. To get started with Wegovy, just go to forhers.com and complete an online consultation with a licensed provider who will determine if your prescription is appropriate. And Hers doesn't stop there. Nutrition and lifestyle guidance are part of the plan, along with access to 24/7 messaging with your care team. So support is always in reach. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/ Kara to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause and more. That's forhers.com/ Kara.

• 26:36Kara Swisher?

  Individual results may vary and stopping treatment may result in weight regain. One of the things you talk about is having to endure, and this is quote, countless insufferable assholes and imbeciles. You write, I want to live my life to mean something and it cannot ever mean anything if I'm under the thumb of dumbasses. Talk about why you always seem to be that in that way. You start off with some people who start okay and then you part with them. They become dumbasses in some fashion. And we'll get into some specifics later. I peel out too. I have this whole thing is I often look at someone and say, I think you're stupid. I need to leave because I think you're a dumbass or a chucklehead is my latest thing.

• 27:20Kara Swisher?

  Talk about that ability to look at someone and say, I can't be with you because.

• 27:25Speaker 05

  Well, I was sitting there at ICM and they had between Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts, you know, and unbelievable directors and unbelievable television, you know, shows and packages. Once we had merged, it became a two horse race between ICM and CIA. And I'm just looking at it and there's Sam Cohen, there's Jeff Berg, Jim Wyatt. It's completely not functional. You know, and it stands for I, at the time, everybody internally was making fun of it. It stands for I cover myself. I'm in all these meetings. I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? And then I get hit by the car.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  And we talked about backstage, you had this experience in your own situation and I wiggle my fingers and wiggle my toes. And I say to myself, life's not a dress rehearsal. And at 32 or 31, whatever it was, and you think you're invincible. And then you realize you're not, it could end. And so I'm looking at this, I'm like, I did six months of rehab to get the surgery, had the surgery and then did another eight months after the surgery. And I'm like, I'm not doing this. I'm not this, that was the moment, I'm not doing this. And I saw the world changing, television business changing. And I was just like, I'm not working for these imbeciles. I'm just not going to do it. It's just too short or too long now to do this.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  And my father went nuts because they, I was in my contract year, they were offering me a million dollars. You Fisher, who do you think you are? You're going to not take a million dollars. And I said, Dad, I think I could do this, you know, and, you know, a million dollars was like crazy for him. And so I just looked at him, I'm like, there's no chance.

• 29:12Kara Swisher?

  Because they. You're morons.

• 29:14Speaker 05

  Jeff Berg was not a moron.

• 29:16Kara Swisher?

  But the situation.

• 29:17Speaker 05

  And let's be very clear. As an agent, before Mike Ovitz picked him apart and Ron Meyer picked him apart, Sam Cohn was a legend. He was incredible. He did eat a lot of paper, right? I mean, he ate paper. He ate everything on his desk. But.

• 29:36Kara Swisher?

  Says the man who eats worms. But go ahead.

• 29:39Speaker 05

  He ate paper.

• 29:40Kara Swisher?

  You eat worms. But go ahead.

• 29:42Speaker 05

  He ate paper.

• 29:42Kara Swisher?

  Worms.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  Healthier. Okay, okay.

• 29:47Kara Swisher?

  Debatable.

• 29:48Speaker 05

  So what I'm saying is, I just realized, I'd come from Intertown and I'd seen CAA and I realized if we were going to do it, how we wanted to do it. And Tom Strickler was incredible and David Greenblatt and Rick Rosen. And so we just started.

• 30:03Kara Swisher?

  You just left. It takes a lot. I mean, a lot.

• 30:05Speaker 05

  And they made the huge mistake. You know, we have four nobodies.

• 30:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  We leave and they blow it up as if it's the, like, a coup.

• 30:14Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 30:14Speaker 05

  And.

• 30:15Kara Swisher?

  Making you more important.

• 30:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was crazy.

• 30:17Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I think one of the things I noted and I appreciate about you is you're a bad employee, as am I.

• 30:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:23Kara Swisher?

  Which is why I leave instead of being a whining bitch about it. You just go and do your own thing.

• 30:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:28Kara Swisher?

  Now, speaking of assholes, according to you, by late 80s, you worked your way up to becoming this agent at CAA and gotten a huge blow up with the agency's co-founder, Mike Ovitz, when he found out you were leaving to start something new. As I noted, you literally picked up the chair and threatened to destroy his office. I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have done that. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert, but we have two for you. Here's the first from Mr. Ovitz himself.

• 30:56Speaker 06

  Mr. Emanuel, what an honor for you to take my question. And I must say, it is so great that you are doing one of my favorite, favorite podcasts with Ms. Swisher, who is so smart. My question, Mr. Emanuel, is very simple. What kind of advice would you give to a young, energetic man like me who wants to follow in your footsteps and start a business from the ground up? I very much appreciate what you're about to say, even though I haven't heard it, because

• 31:38Speaker 06

  I know from history and following your career, it's gonna be great.

• 31:46Kara Swisher?

  He has laryngitis. So go ahead. What would you, advice would you give a young man like Mr. Ovitz?

• 31:53Speaker 05

  Well, you have to be in business with people that you actually like and trust and you believe in, and they believe in you. And you have to create a culture where you lead by being in front of the line. And now, different from then, it wouldn't be a culture of fear.

• 32:12Kara Swisher?

  Which you thought that was at the time.

• 32:14Speaker 05

  Well, his was.

• 32:15Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:16Kara Swisher?

  Did it work?

• 32:17Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, incredibly. But it, and for whatever reason, I think you want to be in a place where any idea can be discussed. And I think at the beginning of my career, it's one of the things I didn't do that well because I was just running too hard. I didn't kind of have a collective thought with people that were younger than me and et cetera in the company. Now, I think, I think that's different.

• 32:44Kara Swisher?

  So you allow, you don't want to do a culture of fear. It's a culture of not fear.

• 32:48Speaker 05

  And, you know, I was pretty bad coming in on Monday mornings.

• 32:51Kara Swisher?

  Now, you eventually led you to a merger with WMA, which you did with Patrick Weitzel. I think the most interesting part about that was sort of the sus justifications around it, the numbers that were not quite there. You were, the numbers weren't as good as you thought they were going to be going in.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  When we were merged?

• 33:07Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, when you merged.

• 33:08Speaker 05

  So we did it in 2008, 2009. We paid Jim White and Irvine Traub a total of 44 million. And then we lost a lawsuit for the building they bought for 35 million. And then they were down on their numbers because for six months we were merging and they were down about $20 million. And then we had to pay bonuses of about $25 million. So we were fucked. In 08, 09, when the world was, my brother's in the White House and all I remember him saying, you know, it's tipping. And so, yeah, it was horrible.

• 33:48Kara Swisher?

  And when you thought about that merger, you went from being an agent to an owner.

• 33:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:53Kara Swisher?

  Talk about why that was important, because the agency was the means to becoming.

• 33:59Speaker 05

  Well, here's what happened. So we merge. Jim leaves, Irv leaves, new board. And then, I think it was 2011, 2010, Teddy, I think it was, Teddy Forssom gets sick and passes away. Who was it? A guy I knew and he had just bought IMG. And I was running all over the world trying to put money together so that we could buy IMG because I wanted not only the motion picture, television, music, books, theater, commercials department, I wanted all the sports and then the live events.

• 34:41Speaker 05

  And in between, before that, in 08, I started, when the world coming down, I brought Joe Ravitch and Jeff Sine together and I created a ring. And in that, I read an article about Marc Andreessen. He had just started Andreessen Horowitz. And I said, yeah, I'd like to meet you. I thought you were interesting. He says, I'll fly to meet you. And I said, I'll fly. And he came in. We started talking and I thought he would be a great name inside the ring that we could then raise money off of his name if we had him. And so he flies down, he says, can I come have lunch with you? We came with lunch at the Grill. And he says, I want to buy into you and I want to go after IMG.

• 35:22Speaker 05

  And I turned to him and I said, there's no fucking way a PE firm is going to get us. I've had all these conversations with PE firm. He goes, give me your numbers. I'll come back in three weeks. He did. And he made an offer. I had to negotiate, even though I could have signed the offer. And that just started one of the great relationships of all time. And that's kind of, in a weird way, I like to say that either, I love puzzles and my, my former mother-in-law turned us on to puzzles from stays. I call it creating serendipity. I'll read something, I'll call somebody that will lead to something. And a lot, a lot of my, a lot of my relationships start that way.

• 36:07Kara Swisher?

  But you didn't want to stay in the agency servicing others. You wanted to be a principal.

• 36:13Speaker 05

  I, I love the agency business. I'm still in the agency business. I'm dealing with Aaron Sorkin's movie and I'm dealing with my best friend Pete Berg's movie. I'm in the agency, but Tyler Perry this morning, for sure. But the great thing about the agency business and what we had with IMG, we had created all the services you need. Distribution, production, licensing, everything that you needed if you owned what I wanted to do, a sports asset.

• 36:41Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 36:41Speaker 05

  And so the next step after IMG and learning and doing all the deals internationally for sports rights and then doing all the license fees here, I knew what you, all you had to do is then put a property on there. And then came to UFC.

• 36:58Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing you to spend tons of time searching, Indeed Sponsored Jobs matches you with quality candidates fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results.

• 37:43Kara Swisher?

  When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners to the show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support.

• 38:00Speaker 07

  Report our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is the job for Indeed-sponsored jobs.

• 38:18Speaker 07

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 38:48Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brook-Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:24Kara Swisher?

  So one of the things I was thinking about when I met you was you started to do a lot of tech stuff. You talked about Marc Andreessen. But speaking of mergers, you're advising David Ellis, son of the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. Talk, I want, and I don't want you to go on about it because I know he loves movies. Got it. Talk about the settlement. And I know you need four bidders. Got it, got it. Okay, sure, why not? But these are tech people. It's a tech person and the son of a tech person, essentially. Talk about why you think it's a good idea for Hollywood. Let's use this as an example as tech people.

• 39:58Speaker 05

  Why do you think it's a bad idea?

• 40:00Kara Swisher?

  I don't think it's a bad or good idea, consolidation. I think you should grow through innovation, not consolidation.

• 40:06Speaker 05

  I think you can grow both ways.

• 40:07Kara Swisher?

  I guess, but it seems like a lazy, rich person's way of doing so.

• 40:10Speaker 05

  Great. And I think when, when.

• 40:14Kara Swisher?

  It's also non-economic, the way it looks right now.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  That's your opinion, right? And there's other people that will go through numbers and show you why it's not. And that will be a discussion that you get.

• 40:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, in about a year, I'll be absolutely correct. But go ahead.

• 40:27Speaker 05

  Okay. I think we should have everybody back. In one year, we'll have this conversation.

• 40:31Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I remember when David Zaslove told me that debt wasn't a problem.

• 40:33Speaker 05

  That's a different conversation. That's a different conversation.

• 40:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  At the beginning, when Netflix started and then everybody had a direct-to-consort business.

• 40:42Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 40:42Speaker 05

  Everybody was talking on Wall Street, in the world, that there had to be consolidation. So three, four years later, we had consolidation because the economics doesn't work. But on the other hand, only having one and a half bidders, maybe two and a half bidders with Disney and Amazon is a platform that people can be on and also make their own stuff.

• 41:06Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 41:07Speaker 05

  You need, for the buying community, I mean, for the selling community, you need more. You need, because the definition of monopoly is when you're making a deal and that person that you're making a deal with says, oh, how much are you making on advertising at the UFC? After that point, we want to, we want 5% because it's us. So having been an owner and realizing those conversations, depending on how big you are and how much leverage you have, that's not a good thing for anybody in the creative community. So that's why.

• 41:41Kara Swisher?

  You want more bidders.

• 41:42Speaker 05

  I want more bidders so that my clients and my competitors' clients can have more, more power in the market.

• 41:50Kara Swisher?

  Are you at all worried, one, about the debt? Two, about the implications of CNN? I know you suggested the nonsensical editorial board.

• 41:59Speaker 05

  No, but here's what I'm going to say to you about that.

• 42:00Kara Swisher?

  No, you're wrong.

• 42:01Speaker 05

  No, you don't even know what the fuck I'm going to say.

• 42:03Kara Swisher?

  I know what you're going to say.

• 42:04Speaker 05

  No, you don't.

• 42:05Kara Swisher?

  Go ahead.

• 42:05Speaker 05

  So.

• 42:06Kara Swisher?

  Tell me, non-journalist.

• 42:07Speaker 05

  I want to ask you a question.

• 42:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  So you're nervous that he's going to reach down to CNN and he's going to put his point of view on CNN?

• 42:16Kara Swisher?

  No, I'm nervous that he's a moron about media, but go ahead.

• 42:19Speaker 05

  So I just 100% disagree with that.

• 42:21Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 42:21Speaker 05

  So here's a guy that let Jon Stewart do what he did. And Jon Stewart has been banging, banging away at the president and the administration.

• 42:32Kara Swisher?

  I'm not.

• 42:32Speaker 05

  Matt and Trey on SARS Park have been incredible.

• 42:35Kara Swisher?

  Right, these are the examples you used.

• 42:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, and he had somebody in late night for one year. Because if he really wanted to stop them from talking, he would just yank them off. Even though that business, as funny as he is, late night is losing approximately $50 million. I don't think he's going to do anything as it relates to reaching down and, and, and putting his hand on that situation. I don't.

• 43:00Kara Swisher?

  You know, I think it's very easy to talk about political interference. What it is, is someone who doesn't fundamentally understand media, suggesting editorial board. Journalists don't need money, they need competent managers.

• 43:11Speaker 05

  And I think they have one in Mark.

• 43:13Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Yes, if that continues.

• 43:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 43:16Kara Swisher?

  Are you here to tell us that's going to happen?

• 43:17Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 43:18Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 05

  You'll wait and see.

• 43:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  But Mark is a really talented executive.

• 43:22Kara Swisher?

  Guy who runs CNN.

• 43:23Speaker 05

  He's incredible, came from the BBC, New York Times, he's great.

• 43:25Kara Swisher?

  So what?

• 43:26Speaker 05

  And we're waiting for his.

• 43:27Kara Swisher?

  So the two things I think I'm more focused on is, I don't think they will necessarily, it's that they could. And there have been many credible reports about pleasing Trump. And there's obvious, obsequious suck-up behavior happening.

• 43:40Speaker 05

  I just told you in three instances that that is a false narrative.

• 43:44Kara Swisher?

  Those were people who were there before, so they didn't fuck with me.

• 43:47Speaker 05

  But if he wanted to, he could have taken Colbert off late night.

• 43:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 05

  He let them there for a year. Jon has been pounding away and that whole show has been pounding away, rightfully. So has South Park, been hysterically funny, has not done anything.

• 44:03Kara Swisher?

  All right, those are three comedy shows? I would.

• 44:05Speaker 05

  One, they, two are kind of hit on news, different way to form news and the way news is perceived and, and accepted from a generation.

• 44:17Kara Swisher?

  I don't know. I, I would rather.

• 44:19Speaker 05

  You just don't have an argument. You just hate to say yes to me.

• 44:21Kara Swisher?

  No, I don't, I don't.

• 44:23Speaker 05

  It's okay, say yes.

• 44:24Kara Swisher?

  I just, I've, I've watched what's happened and the things.

• 44:26Speaker 05

  You know what I would do?

• 44:27Kara Swisher?

  I think they're incompetent.

• 44:28Speaker 05

  I, so here's where you and I.

• 44:30Kara Swisher?

  You know what, also.

• 44:30Speaker 05

  Here's where you and I are different.

• 44:31Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 05

  I don't want.

• 44:33Kara Swisher?

  I think I'm dumb asses and I don't want to work for them.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  Okay, here's, here's my point. Well, you don't have, you have, this is your own business, you could just do this.

• 44:41Kara Swisher?

  That's correct, that's why I have my own business.

• 44:42Speaker 05

  So I would say to you the following. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. I've said this.

• 44:48Kara Swisher?

  I know, you have said this.

• 44:49Speaker 05

  And I don't want, just because I'm friends with people, doesn't mean I, I agree with them or abide by what they say. So I would rather, like with you, we have great discussions. You actually, I don't want to give you any props, but you actually influence me and you make me think about stuff. I think the same is true, that you can have a conversation and influence David. He is that guy that you can talk to, knowing him for 10 years, representing him.

• 45:17Kara Swisher?

  Are you worried at all that a lot of Hollywood creatives, thousands publicly oppose the merger? And the people in favor tend to be very wealthy, including a group that includes foreign investors, Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Qatar.

• 45:29Speaker 05

  Right.

• 45:30Kara Swisher?

  They hold almost half the company's ownership.

• 45:32Speaker 05

  I, I think we will see in a little bit of time, he's going to do, he said it, and put it in the documents, 30 movies, you know, 170 series, spending $30 billion to $31 billion a year? Fantastic. It's great for the community.

• 45:51Kara Swisher?

  What if it doesn't come to pass?

• 45:53Speaker 05

  What if my bubby has a beard?

• 45:55Kara Swisher?

  That's not the same.

• 45:56Speaker 05

  Should be my zaddy.

• 45:57Kara Swisher?

  That's the cute line, but it's kind of meaningless.

• 45:59Speaker 05

  What if? I don't know.

• 46:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and you trust these people to do that?

• 46:03Speaker 05

  I, I believe in David, a lot.

• 46:05Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Okay, we'll see what happens. I'm not going to argue with you, you're wrong. So what? You do say the movie business is never dying and that people have always overreacted to change, but LA County has lost 57,000 entertainment jobs in the last four years. Productions filmed in California have been in steady decline.

• 46:23Speaker 05

  But it's a different conversation, it has nothing to do with David.

• 46:25Kara Swisher?

  Well, he's promising to help, first he threatened to leave and then.

• 46:28Speaker 05

  That's a negotiation.

• 46:29Kara Swisher?

  I understand, but it was stupid. It was also dumb.

• 46:32Speaker 05

  Whatever.

• 46:33Kara Swisher?

  Whatever.

• 46:33Speaker 05

  I mean, he, he won.

• 46:35Kara Swisher?

  Won?

• 46:36Speaker 05

  He, he got, he got what he wanted.

• 46:38Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Okay, I think he looks like a doofus.

• 46:40Speaker 05

  He won.

• 46:40Kara Swisher?

  Okay, but it's a dumb threat.

• 46:43Speaker 05

  He won.

• 46:43Kara Swisher?

  It makes me think he's dumber. Okay, whatever.

• 46:46Speaker 05

  He won.

• 46:46Kara Swisher?

  Fine, great, good for him, yay. Wow, a rich kid just got richer, I'm so pleased for him.

• 46:51Speaker 05

  From your point of view, he's, he's in debt, he's never going to come out of debt. Maybe he got poorer.

• 46:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that's true, that's true. All right, so.

• 46:57Speaker 05

  Pick a side.

• 46:57Kara Swisher?

  Okay. I have picked a side. You should let me go where I want to go. So what, what happens next after this? Because these, these are all really economically challenged businesses, here in California particularly, and the movie industry, which you know.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  Which are the things I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get a rebate. First of all, that this state has not imposed what Atlanta has or any of the other states is insane. It's just crazy. I, I mean, I had productions that had to move to Atlanta, it's just not right. I'm trying to get President Trump, and I've been on the phone with Adam Schiff, I've been on the phone with King Jeffries, I'm trying to get a call with Senator Scott and Leader Schumer about getting the tax rebate for the country. And I think it has a really good shot, probably in lame duck, to get passed.

• 47:57Speaker 05

  And then I think we all, on the next, with the next governor, have to really work hard to put a, a serious plan in place to get a rebate here. And then they sit on top of each other and then I think production will stay. And I think everybody wants that.

• 48:13Kara Swisher?

  Certainly, but one of the problems, of course, is.

• 48:18Kara Swisher?

  Many of the owners will be tech owners. People like the Ellison's who can afford this, these yachts. Now, AI has put them under siege. It's very clear. There's 130 lawsuits have been brought against OpenAI, Google, Amazon, Meta, XAI, Perplexity, Nvidia, Suno, and other developers.

• 48:35Speaker 05

  What's this have to do with my book?

• 48:38Kara Swisher?

  I want to know how you think about AI because you're thinking about what's coming next.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  Here's what I'm thinking about. So I think in 2016, I believe sports was going to go where it was. We were the crazy that we bought UFC, the highest price of all time, and now it looks cheap. And I believe sports is still up and to the right.

• 49:00Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 49:01Speaker 05

  Live is up and to the right. Sports, music, and events. Started a live events business.

• 49:07Kara Swisher?

  You bought theaters.

• 49:09Speaker 05

  I also think my youngest, I have my two, my middle son and my eldest son, Noah and Ezra are here. My youngest son and my middle son said, Dad, you know what they call Thursday? They call it Baby Friday. So I believe if you look at hotel reservations, travel times, a bunch of data, Thursday night, people are starting to go out and they're coming in late on Monday. So you have a lot of free time. And if AI works, let's just go with that premise. And we get GDP up to three to three and a half percent. We're going to be out of a deficit and there's going to be, like, you're going to have a lot more free time. They're going to, we're going to be consuming and consuming a lot of entertainment, live, but also with AI, as we've just saw in some of the box office movies, it's going to become cheaper.

• 49:53Speaker 05

  And there's going to be a lot more content out there. There's going to be a lot more, content's going to be defined in a lot more ways. You're going to have micro dramas, your social is going to be big. It's just going to be a great number of pieces of content being created. And I think that's just great for all of us and it's going to be at a price. Now, there is going to be some dislocation. Some people are going to lose their jobs. I think it's always happened with technology. That's not a good thing. But I think there's going to be a lot more content. And I think that's a great thing for our community and for creative people. As Steve Jobs once said, humans were the slowest movers across the land. And then the bike came in and with their legs, they moved. And I think AI is going to help us in entertainment.

• 50:38Kara Swisher?

  So you look at AI as helping humans and not killing, have a 10% chance of killing us?

• 50:43Speaker 05

  I'm hoping that that is the case. With the current pinky promise in Washington, I'm nervous about it.

• 50:48Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 50:49Speaker 05

  But I do think if we could put some guardrails in it, it could be incredible.

• 50:54Kara Swisher?

  Well, let's get back to your book then, because one of the things, I mean, we could talk about you calling Barry Diller just a melange of old farts and bad ideas.

• 51:02Speaker 05

  Well, he's just not relevant anymore.

• 51:04Kara Swisher?

  Oh, he's very smart.

• 51:05Speaker 05

  He's not relevant.

• 51:06Kara Swisher?

  He's still very smart. Okay, okay, whatever.

• 51:09Speaker 05

  What's he smart about? So here's what he said. Here's what he said. He said, during COVID, the movie business was dead. And then he tried to buy Paramount. I mean, shut the fuck, pick a lane.

• 51:22Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 05

  Okay? And stop trying to be relevant.

• 51:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, okay, all right. Because you've never been wrong, Ari.

• 51:29Speaker 05

  No, I've been wrong a lot. I actually point out in the book.

• 51:31Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I know.

• 51:31Speaker 05

  I actually been wrong a lot.

• 51:32Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I know. And you said Jeffrey Katzenberg makes everyone yawn and look like a boy. Look, at the time, you called Katzenberg a glad-handing phony and a fucking putz. You compared him to a golden retriever.

• 51:43Speaker 05

  I know, a golden retriever was better.

• 51:44Kara Swisher?

  Something about, something about some stupid basketball tickets.

• 51:51Speaker 05

  No, here's what happened. I'm going to give it to you. I'm going to give it to you. He, when we were start-

• 51:56Kara Swisher?

  You have our tickets, Bobby.

• 51:57Speaker 05

  No, we're starting out, tried to take advantage of us in economics.

• 52:02Kara Swisher?

  You wanted the tickets.

• 52:03Speaker 05

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Move on past that.

• 52:05Kara Swisher?

  All right, okay.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  The thing that really upset me?

• 52:07Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 05

  He calls me up, now, remember, my brother worked in the administration of Obama and Biden. He goes, I can get you in to see Biden. You think I fucking need you to get me in to see Biden? Especially if I'm writing a check for a million dollars.

• 52:20Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 52:21Speaker 05

  Okay? And then he gives us Biden, which a lot of us, me, a year before, was screaming Ruth Bader Biden. And he said, I could do all these things with Biden. I can do all these things and Karen Bass. And then the election's over. I don't want to talk about politics. How about fuck you asshole? You're the one that was pushing this so hard. You didn't do anything a year beforehand to get him out. And you actually said you had the ability to talk to him and get him out. Where the fuck were you?

• 52:53Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Interesting, because I've noticed Trump sleeps a lot during events. Have you done anything to get him out? Sleeping president? Someone who has cognitive, obvious cognitive issues? I'm just curious, since you're right there.

• 53:08Speaker 05

  I deal with him what I want, and I actually have the conversations when I disagree with him.

• 53:12Kara Swisher?

  Okay, but are you worried about his cognitive abilities?

• 53:16Speaker 05

  You should talk to my brother. He's a doctor.

• 53:18Kara Swisher?

  No, I'm talking to you.

• 53:19Speaker 05

  You know, those are medical issues that you should talk to him about.

• 53:22Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, but I'm talking about-

• 53:23Speaker 05

  Because when I've had conversations with him?

• 53:25Kara Swisher?

  Yep.

• 53:25Speaker 05

  He's very, he's, he's on it a lot. And he'll follow up a lot. So I'm sorry to say that for me and my interaction with him, that doesn't exist.

• 53:37Kara Swisher?

  Okay, so you don't think it's a similar thing?

• 53:39Speaker 05

  I don't.

• 53:39Kara Swisher?

  Okay, all right. So one of the things I want to finish up on, there's two things I want to finish up on. One is obviously Elon Musk. Now, in the vein of, he just, it was at your weekend, the weekend thing?

• 53:51Speaker 05

  He talked about space.

• 53:52Kara Swisher?

  He talked about space. I heard, I heard it was very impressive. In that vein, no, I did. I actually, I'm being-

• 53:57Speaker 05

  It was.

• 53:58Kara Swisher?

  In that vein-

• 53:59Speaker 05

  And I think yesterday was pretty, or was it yesterday?

• 54:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was pretty impressive.

• 54:03Kara Swisher?

  Much of the way, yeah. And after, I like the space stuff. I don't have a problem with the space stuff. But in the vein of telling our narratives, in the Mel Gibson fervor you wrote, I'm realizing that I have a platform and this scandal has me thinking about how I want to use it and what do I want to use it for and against. How do you make those judgments? And why do you, you know, you make a hobby of making friends with, you basically study rich people.

• 54:26Speaker 05

  I have a lot of relationships because I can actually talk to a lot of people.

• 54:29Kara Swisher?

  You call them your professors and that you got in the book.

• 54:32Speaker 05

  One of the things that, when I talk to Elon, he gives me pretty good insight where he thinks the world's going. It's helped me in business when going after the UFC, starting my events business. He has been pretty profound in kind of how he sees the world going. And he's given me, no, he hasn't?

• 54:54Kara Swisher?

  Go ahead.

• 54:55Speaker 05

  What the fuck was that?

• 54:56Kara Swisher?

  I don't know. It's Elon, probably.

• 54:59Speaker 05

  So, yeah, I mean, he's been, he's been pretty good in kind of laying out where he sees the world going. That enables me to kind of figure out in business where I could be.

• 55:07Kara Swisher?

  I'm wondering if Mel Gibson rubbed you the wrong way, why Elon doesn't?

• 55:12Speaker 05

  I don't always agree with Elon and I actually-

• 55:14Kara Swisher?

  I understand.

• 55:15Speaker 05

  Get into conversations with him.

• 55:16Kara Swisher?

  I'm not talking about disagreements. I'm talking about statements about white people, black people.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  I actually got into a very heated conversation with him and actually hung up the phone on him.

• 55:26Kara Swisher?

  Okay. But you went on a real limb for Mel Gibson's statements. What is the difference? I want to understand what the difference is.

• 55:35Speaker 05

  Mel Gibson went on a rant-

• 55:36Kara Swisher?

  I mean, you talked about it in the book.

• 55:37Speaker 05

  Mel Gibson went on a rant about women, black people, Jews, and then did it again. Elon has done very good things and things that I disagree with.

• 55:49Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 55:50Speaker 05

  And also, I hate to fool you, I've also matured in how I deal with people and how I interact with people.

• 55:56Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 55:56Speaker 05

  And I don't think he's ever used the N-word or any of those words. But maybe Elon, you're telling me has? I've never heard that.

• 56:04Kara Swisher?

  Whites are a rapidly dying minority. Anyone raising a baby as a trans is guilty of extreme child abuse. If I were black, Starling would have received-

• 56:11Speaker 05

  I disagree with him on those things. And I tell him those things.

• 56:14Kara Swisher?

  I'm just curious how it's different. Like, why is it different than a Mel Gibson?

• 56:17Speaker 05

  In my mix, it's different.

• 56:18Kara Swisher?

  Not that I want you to be fair to Mel Gibson particularly, but what is the difference? Where's your line for you?

• 56:25Speaker 05

  There's no line. There's, it moves, there's, there's, I wish I could say to you, there's black and white. You know, and you're mature enough to know, we are living in gray constantly.

• 56:36Kara Swisher?

  Okay. For some reason, only white characters are race swapped. Why is that?

• 56:42Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't, I've never-

• 56:44Kara Swisher?

  I mean, these are pretty-

• 56:45Speaker 05

  I've never heard those.

• 56:47Kara Swisher?

  He says them.

• 56:48Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 56:48Kara Swisher?

  He says them all the time. Just wanted to understand what, where you decide to speak up, when you don't. I want to end on-

• 56:55Speaker 05

  You know, I'm not sitting there, you know, with a microscope and everything he says. I actually have a life.

• 57:00Kara Swisher?

  I understand that. Okay, all right, all right.

• 57:04Speaker 05

  I know you're in that microscope in a top-

• 57:06Kara Swisher?

  I'm not in a microscope. I'm like, if you, if you say, it's interesting who we decide to let go and who we don't. That's just my feeling. And I want to know what yours is. And I think you said-

• 57:16Speaker 05

  Actually, with Mel Gibson, he and I had a conversation where I think he actually did a lot of work. And I said, you know something? When Mark Wahlberg said I want to put him in in one of my movies, I said, you should because he's actually done a lot of work and he's actually done some self-work.

• 57:28Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 57:29Speaker 05

  I thought it was great.

• 57:29Kara Swisher?

  Right, I understand that. But one of the things you said to, in your book, is, I tell Larry David on election night, I can't fight anymore. He laughs, since when? I tell him I'm serious. I have a, I can't have a beef with half my friends. I can't hate half my country.

• 57:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:45Kara Swisher?

  How does anybody get back now from your perspective?

• 57:47Speaker 05

  I don't know. I mean, from me?

• 57:50Kara Swisher?

  For you and the rest of them.

• 57:51Speaker 05

  Well, I would just say to you the following-

• 57:53Kara Swisher?

  From the rage, I guess.

• 57:55Speaker 05

  You know, I want to live in a society. And in a society, you have to get in the ring, you have to talk to people, and you have to have the conversation. And they're going to sway you a little bit sometimes, and you're going to sway them. And you, that's where I want to live and that's how I want to live my life. Because that's the only way this country is going to get out of the polarization that you can't talk to anybody on the other side and move forward. And we need that desperately for the country.

• 58:25Kara Swisher?

  Do you, do you imagine we can get rid of the rage? Because rage is what has happened now.

• 58:31Speaker 05

  Listen, um-

• 58:31Kara Swisher?

  Which is your brand.

• 58:33Speaker 05

  I'm hoping that we can. Hopefully, we get a good leader in the White House that's a Democrat that can kind of cross the aisle.

• 58:41Kara Swisher?

  All right, my last thing. Speaking of family, here are two more outside experts, Zeke and Rahm Emanuel, with another expert question for you.

• 58:52Speaker 06

  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Question is, we should ask Ari.

• 58:56Speaker 05

  All right, what we should do is make sure that next time, he takes the lower bunk, not the upper bunk. Simple question. Ari, in both your professional and personal life, what was a mistake you made or sat back?

• 59:10Speaker 06

  And what did you learn from it? And how have you applied it subsequently to avoid making similar mistakes in the future?

• 59:18Speaker 05

  Second question. What advice would Ari Emanuel give Ari Gold to improve his business and his- Personal life. Good luck, Ari. We're proud of you. We love you. It's a great book. Monday through Friday, we love you. Saturday and Sunday, not so much. Notice how Zeke read the book and Rahm hasn't read the book.

• 59:37Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's correct.

• 59:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:38Kara Swisher?

  All right, what do you answer your?

• 59:40Speaker 05

  I don't remember what the questions were.

• 59:41Kara Swisher?

  They asked, what advice would Ari Emanuel give to Ari Gold? And what would you do to avoid making similar mistakes?

• 59:50Speaker 05

  I would, I think at the time Ari Gold did a great job. It was hysterical. I'm now, I've now started to watch the show.

• 59:57Kara Swisher?

  I know that. I understand that.

• 1:00:00Speaker 05

  I probably wouldn't have taken the phone into the marriage counselor. I don't remember doing that. I may have done that. I probably did it.

• 1:00:11Kara Swisher?

  But what advice would you give to yourself if you're looking back? That's, I think, what your brothers were asking.

• 1:00:16Speaker 05

  You know, I mean, I guess the thing is, I would have enjoyed it more. I don't think I enjoyed it more. I don't think I, Brent Joel, who's a friend and somebody that works, he goes, you know, you never like to celebrate the wins. And I'm just, I'm just moving on. I don't like doing that. And maybe that's how we grew up. And I think my wife would tell me, I still don't celebrate them enough. But I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy-ish. I'm satisfied-ish.

• 1:00:53Kara Swisher?

  Wow.

• 1:00:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. You know, my son Noah said to me on a plane ride, he was in high school, and he goes, I think he was a sophomore, he goes to my ex-wife and me, he goes, can't we just be normal? I'm like, who the fuck wants to be normal? And what the fuck is the definition of normal? So I don't know what happy is. I'm so much happier now. I wish I would have enjoyed it more back then, even though it was painful, great. And I'm really happy now that I'm in this place, still getting better and still working on it.

• 1:01:31Kara Swisher?

  So that's an excellent answer. So you use it as a trick this a lot, asking people when you're trying to get them to do something. Are you happy, Ari?

• 1:01:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Are you asking me?

• 1:01:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 05

  I just answered that fucking question.

• 1:01:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm happy. I'm happy-ish.

• 1:01:48Kara Swisher?

  And what would make you happier?

• 1:01:49Speaker 05

  To be healthy, continue to do this, seeing my kids just be unbelievably prosperous, which they're on their way to, and seeing the agency that I started and the people there take it over and just grow it way past. And the two businesses I have now that I'm completely involved with, who knows, just be on that great ride.

• 1:02:14Kara Swisher?

  So you are soft. Ari Emanuel, everybody.

• 1:02:18Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:02:24Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Vicky Vergolina, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsap, Megan Burney, and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Lissa Soap, Olivia Bryley, Rose Marie Ho, Jim Mackel, Manolo Moreno, and Live Talks Los Angeles. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Ri Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you don't have to eat a cup of worms tomorrow morning. If not, you'll never eat lunch in this town again, at least with Ari Emanuel, and thank God for that. Go over your Listen to Podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit Follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

• 1:03:08Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back on Thursday with more.