Andy Cohen Built the Bravoverse. He Still Thinks Like a Producer.

Kara sits down with Bravo network icon Andy Cohen, the host and executive producer of Watch What Happens Live and executive producer of the Real Housewives franchise. He takes Kara on a tour of the business behind the reality TV juggernaut and why he sees himself as less of a “Bravolebrity” and more of a producer and a broadcaster. They also get into Andy’s longtime friendship with Anderson Cooper, how fatherhood has changed him and why he remains outspoken even when his opinions are controversial. Plus: Kara and Andy talk about his soon to be released book Andy’s Bravo Scrapbook, a coffee table collection of his own behind-the-scenes photos from 20 years of Bravo reunions. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You know, BravoCon, we do in Vegas, we've got 30,000 people going to absolutely idolize the almost 200 Bravo liberties that go and take part in it.

• 0:13Kara Swisher?

  Bravo liberties?

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Yes, Bravo liberties, Kara. And they are able to sell things at booths.

• 0:18Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  They are able to-

• 0:20Kara Swisher?

  Like a giant Star Trek convention.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  Yes, I mean, they're, you know, yeah. It's on.

• 0:34Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Andy Cohen, the host and executive producer of Watch What Happens Live and executive producer of The Real Housewives franchise. He curates two Sirius XM channels, Radio Andy and Andy Cohen's Kiki Lounge, runs his own book imprint, and co-hosts CNN's New Year's Eve Live with Anderson Cooper. He's also the author of several bestselling memoirs, and his latest book is Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, which is out October 20th. I always want to talk to Andy. I met him a long time ago. He probably doesn't remember. But he's always really interesting, and I think, a lot like, oddly enough, Ryan Seacrest and others, sort of undersung in how much business he does.

• 1:18Kara Swisher?

  And so I want to talk about business, and of course, his quirky personality, his relationships, and also his outspokenness against President Trump, which is, I think, unusual in the celebrity area. But of course, not the person we asked to do the expert question, Rosie O'Donnell, legendary comedian and talk show host. She's also an outspoken activist and recently wrapped up a stint as guest host of Jimmy Kimmel Live on ABC. So stick around.

• 1:51Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 2:35Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at Odoo.com/Kara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Kara.

• 3:18Speaker 02

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• 3:52Kara Swisher?

  Andy, thanks for coming on On.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:55Kara Swisher?

  I kind of stalked you, didn't I, through Anderson Cooper?

• 3:57Speaker 00

  You know what? By the way, a flattering stalk, I would say.

• 4:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  I mean-

• 4:03Kara Swisher?

  Do you, you know where we met? You don't know. You probably don't remember.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 4:07Kara Swisher?

  That's okay.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  I'm scared to know.

• 4:09Kara Swisher?

  It's all right. We were at dinner at the Sunset Towers with Lauren Zelaznik, early days Bravo.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Wow, a long time ago.

• 4:14Kara Swisher?

  Long time ago. And you were there, and you were hysterical, head of the table.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 4:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you were great.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  But was it just the three of us?

• 4:21Kara Swisher?

  No, it was, it was one of those Lauren dinners.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 4:24Kara Swisher?

  You know what I mean? And I had just finished the Code Conference, and I had interviewed all the tech things. And you were actually, you had some questions about Mark Zuckerberg and everybody else.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  Yes, okay. Wow, I didn't remember that.

• 4:34Kara Swisher?

  It was fledgling days, like, because Lauren deserves a lot of credit, all of you do, about what it was. But at the time, I think it was Queer Eye for the straight guy. There was a couple of-

• 4:42Speaker 00

  It was Project Runway, Queer Eye. Yeah, we started with, and then we, and then we added Top Chef to do what Project Runway was doing for fashion, for food, and then a little show called The Real Housewives.

• 4:57Kara Swisher?

  Right, a little show, little show. We're going to get into that and say, but you, it was really interesting, because at the time, Queer Eye was unusual and strange.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Queer Eye was really the thing that turned Bravo around, and that was before my time. I got the pitch for Queer Eye. I was working for Barry Diller at a small arts channel. And you knew from that pitch that it was going to be amazing, but Bravo actually cast it with them, and it was amazing. And so, yes, but Lauren brought me over to Bravo in 2004, and now I've been there 22 years, which is wild.

• 5:31Kara Swisher?

  I know. It was early on. And then one of the things was that you all were sort of the side, you know, people look for the fancy entertainment, and this was more people's entertainment in a lot of ways. And at the time, I thought it was going to be huge, because it also kind of tracked what was happening online, which was a much more personal parasocial relationship people have with television that hadn't, it had been separate.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, Watch What Happens Live, I think, was one of the first. We're now, we've been going 17 years, but, you know, the only live show in late night, and also a show that was really driven by viewer comments.

• 6:05Kara Swisher?

  Right, fans.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  And live polls, and so they're kind of the fourth person in the clubhouse driving the conversation.

• 6:14Kara Swisher?

  And at the time, it was looked upon as shabby kind of thing. Same thing with the Kardashians. And I had just interviewed Kim Kardashian, because I thought it was fascinating what she was doing online at the time.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you, you figured that out.

• 6:24Kara Swisher?

  Well, early. And I had actually invited her to this conference, and she was like, why do you want me here? And I was like, what you're doing is parasocial. So 20 years into The Real Housewives franchise, which really did-

• 6:34Speaker 00

  We're in your 20 now, yes.

• 6:35Kara Swisher?

  That was the jet fuel of the whole thing, even though those other shows were the beginnings of what you saw. And you're the face of the Bravo TV network, obviously, and most people see you, you know, as a reality TV celebrity, like the people on the franchise. Talk about what set yourself apart from the stars you also created, because you're at the center of it.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  Well, right. I am, you know, I'm not on the shows, so-

• 7:01Kara Swisher?

  You are.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny that you say that. I just had this debate with a writer for Vulture-

• 7:07Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  -who said, you're a reality star. And I said, I don't think I am. I said, I think I'm a broadcaster.

• 7:13Kara Swisher?

  You're a reality god.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  I'm a ringleader of sorts.

• 7:16Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Which my publicist hates that expression, but, you know, in some sense, it's there. But, I mean, look, I'm a producer and a broadcaster, is what I really are, am.

• 7:29Kara Swisher?

  Right. Why do you go away from that idea, that you're, you yourself are a character?

• 7:33Speaker 00

  You know what? I think, because I have control of my own edit, so I take it as far as I want it to go. I was dating someone for a year before anyone found out about it, and they found out about it against, it was not on my timing that they found out about it. They were going to, but I was going to be in charge of when I said it. So, you know, no one is in charge of my edit but me.

• 7:56Kara Swisher?

  You're the reality star god, really, and so-

• 7:58Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know about that.

• 7:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Minor god?

• 8:01Speaker 00

  You know-

• 8:03Kara Swisher?

  Duke?

• 8:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, Duke.

• 8:05Kara Swisher?

  You're the duke.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  That's nice.

• 8:07Kara Swisher?

  Of icon, of icon. But for people to understand, as you did notice, you're the producer, even though you're the face of it, you work behind the scenes in television. Let's talk about that.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  You know, Conan is someone that I've really bonded with about this, because he was a writer, and then he wound up hosting The Tonight Show. I've been a producer for my whole career. I was at CBS News from 1990 to 2000. And then I was working for Barry, launching this cable channel, and then I went and started working for Bravo in 2004. And so, at some point during that run, and I was in charge of programming, and we launched all these shows, including The Real Housewives, she knew that I had wanted to be on the air when I was at CBS years ago. I'd wanted to be on this, the air. My friend Jay Kerns, who's still a producer at Sunday Morning, said, well, you have this

• 8:59Speaker 00

  wonky eye, so I don't think you're going to get on, on the air, which I do. And so I kind of just focused on being behind the scenes, which was amazing, by the way. And Lauren knew I still wanted to do this. I was writing a blog. I was one of the first TV executives to have a daily blog, not only about the show, but also it was kind of, I was going out every night and-

• 9:22Kara Swisher?

  Right, and what am I doing?

• 9:23Speaker 00

  Doing things. And so I was kind of branding myself before that was a thing, an annoying thing.

• 9:29Kara Swisher?

  It was almost like a podcast kind of thing.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:32Kara Swisher?

  Same thing.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:34Kara Swisher?

  But you grew up in St. Louis, watching soap operas like all my children.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:37Kara Swisher?

  Talk to me about those soaps that shaped your idea of entertainment.

• 9:39Speaker 00

  Well, I think The Real Housewives is the great American, well, now international, you know, docu-soap opera. And it's real, and these are real people. But I think if you look at the, the care that we have taken in producing that show and keeping it on the air, and taking people out, and bringing people in, and bringing people back, and using flashbacks, and it's really, it is influenced in part by certainly my love, and I think a lot of producers that we have working with us, a reverence for the daytime drama, which I love.

• 10:15Kara Swisher?

  Right. My grandmother called them her stories.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:18Kara Swisher?

  Because I'm watching my stories.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. And I loved all my children, and I, I- I, there was a moment in time where I wanted to be a writer for Soaps. And I came up with a Bible of what I, where it was like a year of storylines of all my children.

• 10:32Kara Swisher?

  You did this.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  I did it, yeah, when I was in college.

• 10:35Kara Swisher?

  Wow.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  And, but I also was super interested in broadcast journalism. So I went that way, but the great thing for me there was that I really learned about storytelling in the edit room. I was working for 48 hours and those were long form, character driven stories where you could pick up little ticks about someone's life in 48 hours and craft a piece around that person. And I will say those, working at CBS News and hitting deadlines, I mean, that was,

• 11:06Kara Swisher?

  That gave you a discipline.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  It gave me not only discipline, but it gave me, uh, the ability to make fast decisions in the field as they related to storytelling and writing. I was writing on deadlines. I have a new book out called Andy's Bravo Scrapbook. And it's 20 years behind the scenes of The Housewives and the Bravo verse. And these are all photos that I've taken.

• 11:30Kara Swisher?

  Right. It reminded me of the SNL book. Do you remember that?

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. I mean, these are photos that I've taken from behind the scenes of Bravo. But the reason I say it is I've written five other books and I'm, I am a very deadline oriented person and I got that from CBS News.

• 11:47Kara Swisher?

  You started as an intern.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  I was an intern in 1989.

• 11:51Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I was an intern at the Washington Post.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Great.

• 11:53Kara Swisher?

  Mailroom.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  I mean, you can't beat it.

• 11:54Kara Swisher?

  No, you can't.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Can't beat it.

• 11:55Kara Swisher?

  You can't.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  And then I, I graduated college in 90 and I moved to New York and I was like, I want to work at CBS News. And a desk assistant left soon after and I got a job there.

• 12:06Kara Swisher?

  And the thing you did for Barry was Trio, right?

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Trio, yes.

• 12:09Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Where did that go?

• 12:10Speaker 00

  It was brilliant, but canceled.

• 12:12Kara Swisher?

  Brilliant, but canceled.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:13Kara Swisher?

  So what was, you didn't want to stay in news if pop culture and entertainment were always your thing?

• 12:17Speaker 00

  You know what? I had a very great job and standing at CBS News. But Barry had become a friend of mine and, um, he knew me and he believed in me. And he offered me a job as head of programming at this cable channel he was starting. And he said, look, and the idea for this pop culture and arts channel was that it would be kind of a more accessible version of PBS. And it would be high and low. And my whole career has been high and low.

• 12:51Kara Swisher?

  Sort of like Tina Brown at Vanity Fair.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  I think so. I think high and low is the way to be.

• 12:55Kara Swisher?

  The way to go, yeah. And you liked, you were attracted to the pop culture and its impact on society.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  And I thought, when am I ever going to get the chance to learn about programming television from Barry Diller? So I, I, it was a decision made for me.

• 13:08Kara Swisher?

  One of the things that people thought initially about this stuff was tapping into people's voyeuristic tendencies, which has been around forever. And of course there was MTV's Real World, Mark Burnett shows like Survivor and The Apprentice. Um, what, how are you thinking, conceiving of Housewives and that, with that backdrop? Cause those had been on previously.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Uh, a man named Scott Dunlop brought us a tape of these women in Orange County. And they were, the show was not decided on what it would be, but we thought these women were aspirational in a way we hadn't seen. This insurance agent named Vicki talked about getting her breasts enlarged, yet she was a mom, yet she had a grotto in her backyard and her kids were beautiful. And the way that they talked to their kids was certainly different than we were talking to our kids on the East Coast. And it was just in, in a window inside a world and there was something sexy about it.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  And at that time, Desperate Housewives was a big hit on ABC. And we just said, let's follow these women and tell their stories. And for me, it was localized in the way that they all lived in the same neighborhood. This is where it was pinging for me. I was like, this is like Pine Valley. This is a reality.

• 14:33Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  They all had opinions about the other women. They were all friends. We made the men secondary characters and the women were in front. It was always going to be told from their point of view. And that's kind of how it started.

• 14:45Kara Swisher?

  So, so obviously Andy Warhol is known for the quote, in the future, everyone will be famous for five minutes. You've talked a lot about how Warhol is a major inspiration for you.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:52Kara Swisher?

  He said, if he was alive today, part of you thinks he would be painting The Real Housewives and they would be part of the factory.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:58Kara Swisher?

  Talk about the way he approached fame and why that has impacted.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I think that he saw people as superstars. I mean, I think if you look at his superstars, you know, they were unique people from all over who landed in New York, who were this group of misfits who he wanted to kind of make into stars, but they were already stars to him. So, um, it's wild to me now, 20 years into The Housewives, that they are all international stars. Um, and I think that Warhol also, you, look, he predicted reality television.

• 15:36Kara Swisher?

  What would he do today?

• 15:37Speaker 00

  What would he do today besides painting Housewives? Well, I don't know, because it's an explosion of everything that he, you know, but you know, it's interesting because I, from the beginning of The Housewives have taken a picture of, this is me in the middle and these are reunion show settings. And I've taken a picture of the women from my vantage point every season of the show.

• 15:59Kara Swisher?

  Wow.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  And they're very, these photos are unretouched.

• 16:03Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  And they're very, um, kind of warts and all.

• 16:07Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  And you can see a lot in the photos and they are so pop art to me. They're a little freakish, they're a little, um, they're a little, um.

• 16:17Kara Swisher?

  Tan.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Bird's eye, yeah, no, there's a lot of makeup, there's a lot of extensions, there's a lot happening. But they say so much to me and I think these photos in this book are very pop art. I, I, I really think so. And I think it, this, this is a very Warholian look at Bravo, I think.

• 16:38Kara Swisher?

  Right, in the, in the book itself.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:40Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Well, or, or Bravo is Warholian.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:44Kara Swisher?

  Warholian. Yeah. Now, one of the things, you know, when I, as I said, interviewed Kim Kardashian, everyone was like, why are you interviewing her? I'm like, she's very important to culture.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  And what kind of feedback did you get on this interview, Kara?

• 16:54Kara Swisher?

  Yes, well, actually good.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Okay, good.

• 16:57Kara Swisher?

  Because people thought that, well, she herself didn't think she was worthy of it, which I was like, why wouldn't you be? Of course, there are always the comments about her not being a feminist. And I was like, I think it's a little more complex than that. That's what I thought.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:10Kara Swisher?

  Um, and so you said in the past that Real Housewives is a feminist show and you like to check in with feminists you admire like Lena Dunham and Roxane Gay.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 17:18Kara Swisher?

  Two tough critics to make sure they're still watching. And you've been at Gloria Steinem on Watch What Happens Live in 2015.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Didn't go my way.

• 17:25Kara Swisher?

  Is she done up there?

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:26Kara Swisher?

  And she's, and seemed really bothered when she called the series a minstrel show for women, right? Talk to me about why you think it is. I, I don't agree with her. I, I think it's much more interesting than that.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  Well, it is, look, I think it's very easy to look at clips of The Housewives and make a generalization that's not great in a whole lot of directions. But I think when you watch, first of all, it is the story about being a woman in America over the last 20 years. And the women have talked about being sexually assaulted. They've talked about divorcing husbands. They've talked about the difficulty of playing the role in a marriage that their husband wants them to be. Through it all, by the way, an interesting thing has happened to so many of the women

• 18:19Speaker 00

  that have come on the show is that they found their voice on the show and it's given them a platform.

• 18:25Kara Swisher?

  Changed them.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Some have real, definitely changed them. Some of them have realized, I was not happy in this marriage, but I didn't see a way out and I didn't see how I was until I watched myself. But one of the reasons that I think that it's a feminist show is that it has, I, I look at certain women on the shows who own their sexuality and they own who they are in their opinions and their thoughts. And by the way, some of them are very conservative women who own the way that they feel about, you know, their roles in a marriage or their roles in politics or business. That may not be what I agree with, but they're very themselves.

• 19:10Kara Swisher?

  That's kind of what feminism is supposed to be.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 19:12Kara Swisher?

  Right? I mean, in a lot of ways.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  The way they own their sexuality. They're women over 50. I feel like the amount of women over 50 that we've given a platform to, to say, you are sexy and you're beautiful and you can do whatever you want. And there's, you don't have to confine by any rules that a man makes. You should make your own rules and you do your own thing and don't let a man define you. That plays out season after season.

• 19:39Kara Swisher?

  It's interesting because I have a lot of friend, lesbian friends who I would think wouldn't have liked it. And I'm always surprised. They love it. They're like not bothered by it. It depends on who you are.

• 19:47Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 19:47Kara Swisher?

  To me, I don't know why you'd get bothered by someone who wants to do that or not. And I do, I do see the idea of if this is the only vision of a woman.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 19:56Kara Swisher?

  Right?

• 19:56Speaker 00

  And there can't be, they can't speak for all women.

• 19:58Kara Swisher?

  And excessive body changing is, but it's still happening.

• 20:01Speaker 00

  That is also kind of a reflection of where we are as a culture.

• 20:05Kara Swisher?

  Right, exactly. Do you think it presaged what, you know, how everyone became so performative online? Because now, I mean, The Housewives don't even seem extreme anymore.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  I know.

• 20:15Kara Swisher?

  What do they have to do?

• 20:16Speaker 00

  I think there are various factors to that.

• 20:18Kara Swisher?

  You're gonna have to have some executions on them.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  I think the president hasn't helped matters in the online thing.

• 20:24Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Um, but.

• 20:26Kara Swisher?

  I was headed that way anyway.

• 20:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes.

• 20:29Kara Swisher?

  So, but being on camera, your show, Watch What Happens Live, started as a digital series to start with.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  Started as a digital series.

• 20:35Kara Swisher?

  Sort of raw and chaotic in 2009. I went back and looked at one. Talk about the show's evolved as a cultural phenomenon and why it marries with it.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  It started as an after show online in like 2007 or something, or six. And it was on after Top Chef and Project Runway. And now it, and then in 2009, I started doing it once a week and then twice a week. And then we got, and then we got taken to five days a week. The interesting thing is my show has not changed very much in 17 years. I mean, it's very, it's interactive. It's live. Graham Norton was a big influence. It's unscripted. It is, we don't pre-interview our guests. I had Rob Lowe on last night, uh, for a half hour and he was like, God, that was so fun. And I, and I remind people.

• 21:26Kara Swisher?

  I hate the pre-interview.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:28Kara Swisher?

  I decline them.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  I hate the pre-interview.

• 21:29Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  It sucks.

• 21:31Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  And.

• 21:32Kara Swisher?

  One time Steve Jobs was like, are you going to give me the questions like I'm not?

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:36Kara Swisher?

  Enjoy yourself.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Right. Let's have a conversation.

• 21:38Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  It's so much more interesting.

• 21:40Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, especially celebrities.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And they come in and they're, there are many celebrities who are scared to do my show because it's too dangerous for them because they know I'm going to go there. But I want people to leave happy is the thing.

• 21:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it does have a lot of Graham Norton feel to it in a lot of ways, who I think is brilliant.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 21:59Kara Swisher?

  It's brilliant.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 22:00Kara Swisher?

  I'm also stalking him.

• 22:05Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 22:18Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss

• 23:00Kara Swisher?

  the news, international affairs, climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness. Plus, The Guardian wants to emphasize they're not billionaire-owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube starting May 13.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all: legacy, stability, and digital innovation. Systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, the question isn't crypto or traditional finance. The question is simply, why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities.

• 23:52Speaker 05

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 24:23Kara Swisher?

  I want to talk a little bit about the difficulties of the show. First, like reality shows, it's not without its controversy. In 2024, a former Real Housewives filed a lawsuit against you and Bravo alleging the show created hostile work environments where drug use and drinking were encouraged. The lawsuit is headed to trial, though you and the network refiled the motion to dismiss. There's a whole range of things around behaviors on the show. And then, of course, the unionization effort by Bethenny Frankel, of all people, to unionize the housewives. And you've differentiated reality stars from actors, saying, quote, "You don't go to school to become a reality star. Reality stars typically have other jobs." So talk about these things. I mean, obviously, you run a business, too. I don't think people realize it, and it's.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, what specifically do you want me to talk about?

• 25:05Kara Swisher?

  The lawsuit first, the lawsuit.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Well, I can't really speak to that. I will say, there are, I'm so proud of the stories that we've told of the women who have either come into the show sober or gotten sober on the show. And there are so many examples of really incredible stories of sobriety on all of our shows. And I would argue that we really celebrate that. And if you see someone who's had too much to drink, I don't think it's an aspirational occurrence.

• 25:40Kara Swisher?

  On the show?

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:41Kara Swisher?

  Where does this lawsuit go to?

• 25:44Speaker 00

  I don't know. You got to ask.

• 25:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  You know, yeah.

• 25:46Kara Swisher?

  You don't know, and you can't comment on it. What about the unionization? Do you think these people deserve to be in you? There's a lot of them now. How many housewives do you have at this?

• 25:55Speaker 00

  We have a lot of housewives. They are, they're compensated really well. And I think that there are a whole list of reasons why I could tell you that I'm against that and why it all fell apart. I mean, most people who are on reality shows are on for one season. Most reality shows.

• 26:19Kara Swisher?

  They're not actors.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Are competition shows where someone are coming on, trying to cook or sing on American Idol. So most of them are compensated as such, and you're going on to win a contest. So that's a huge percentage of the shows. The shows where you're on for a long period of time, the longer you're on a show, the more money you make on the show. And the money that's being made on these shows is really good. And also, you're giving a platform to sell any variety of thing. I mean, you can actually, if you work it correctly, you can wind up with.

• 26:59Kara Swisher?

  Well, that's any Frankel.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Incredible platform, right?

• 27:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:03Kara Swisher?

  Skinny Girl, right, that she creates. That's separate from you all, is that?

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:06Kara Swisher?

  That's separate from you. So you're saying you're giving them a platform, this is a contest, and they're not actors, essentially?

• 27:12Speaker 00

  That's, that's, that's three things, yes.

• 27:15Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Do you, does it take away from your show, or in weird ways?

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Does what take away?

• 27:20Kara Swisher?

  All these, the, the, the sort of the attack, those two lines?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  No, I mean, look, I think that in the hundreds of people that we've put on television and have had positive experiences with the shows, I think these are two examples of people saying, I didn't. And everyone has a story and an experience. But I would say overwhelmingly, we've got, you know, BravoCon, we do in Vegas, we've got 30,000 people going to absolutely idolize the almost 200 Bravo celebrities that go and take part in it. Yes, Bravo celebrities, Kara. And they are able to sell things at booths. They are able

• 28:02Kara Swisher?

  Like a giant Star Trek convention.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  You know, yeah. I mean, and they're all compensated to be there. So.

• 28:07Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  I would say it's an actually, an incredible universe that we've created that makes a lot of people happy, including the people that are on the shows.

• 28:18Kara Swisher?

  When you think of the criticisms level that you, what do you think is a fair one that's changed, that you've changed yourself? Like, a fair one?

• 28:24Speaker 00

  That's a good question. Well, I mean, I've had criticisms about, sometimes, the way I interview people, or things like that. I mean, criticisms about me on the radio interrupting too much, or, you know, things like that, which I think are always constructive and great. I feel, I'm really proud of the way that we have worked with the people on Bravo. I'll stand 10 toes down on our entire, on the 20-plus years that I've been with this company, and the shows we've produced, and the relationships that we've had, and

• 29:08Speaker 00

  the experiences that people have had on them.

• 29:11Kara Swisher?

  When you think about what you find the most successful of the ones on Bravo, like looking through the scrapbook, besides the Housewives shows, which is sort of the fulcrum, presumably.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:20Kara Swisher?

  Is there something that you're particularly proud of?

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I'm proud of Below Deck, which is, I think, the perfect reality show. I mean, it's a workplace drama. People are actually paying to be charter guests on these boats, and the.

• 29:35Kara Swisher?

  There's always a drunk, drunken lady.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Real deadlines.

• 29:37Kara Swisher?

  There's always a drunken lady.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  There's barely any HR on the boat, so there, you know, the crew's hooking up, the, the guests are trying to hook up with the.

• 29:44Kara Swisher?

  It's like Love Boat.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  There's a lot happening, yes. Love Boat, it is like Love Boat, or it's like Downton Abbey, you know, on a boat. So it's really, it's, it's a really fun show, and it's a huge show. There are several spinoffs of that going, and Top Chef remains, you know, the leader in food television. I'm really proud of that. And Vanderpump Rules had an amazing 10-year run. I mean, Summer House is peaking right now. So there are some great unscripted shows.

• 30:14Kara Swisher?

  Is there one thing that didn't work that you were like, oh, I can't believe it?

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Oh, there's so many things that didn't, didn't work.

• 30:18Kara Swisher?

  That you like.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Well, you know what? There was a show called NYC Prep, that I was a, that, it was a prep school kids in New York City.

• 30:28Kara Swisher?

  You're doing all the shows, Gossip Girl.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  It was Real Life Gossip Girl.

• 30:30Kara Swisher?

  Like Shark.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  And we did it for one season.

• 30:32Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  And we couldn't do it again. All of the schools were like, wait, what? And the parents were like, wait, what? I mean, we did it for one season. It's a great show. It's very beloved in the canon.

• 30:45Kara Swisher?

  In the canon. Is there anything that, like, really upset you? That one upset you it didn't work? It just, they couldn't do it again? Why don't you let the cat out of the prep school bag?

• 30:54Speaker 00

  We, the first show I produced for Bravo was, it was my conceit that all the big stars on TV were reality stars. So we brought back Battle of the Network stars.

• 31:03Kara Swisher?

  Oh, I love that show.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  From the 70s.

• 31:04Kara Swisher?

  No, you did that.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  We shot it in Pepperdine, and we did it, we had the networks against each other.

• 31:09Kara Swisher?

  Pepperdine University, live from Los Angeles, at Pepperdine University.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  And we put people from Project Runway against American Idols and Survivors and all these people. And it was just a bomb. And I was so sure it was going to be a big hit, but it wasn't.

• 31:23Kara Swisher?

  Well, that was a thing of the 70s, because you were those short shorts.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  I know, yeah.

• 31:26Kara Swisher?

  You can't really do that today. It wasn't as good at the time.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  No, it wasn't.

• 31:29Kara Swisher?

  The things they subjected those TV stars to.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  If it had aired on E, I think it would have been.

• 31:33Kara Swisher?

  Oh, you do?

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Successful, yes.

• 31:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Is there any that you never made that you wanted to make?

• 31:39Speaker 00

  You know, Drag Race, I wish we would have made. It seemed like Project Runway to us at the time, you know?

• 31:47Kara Swisher?

  It was proposed to you?

• 31:49Speaker 00

  I think it may have been.

• 31:50Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it may have been. Yeah.

• 31:52Kara Swisher?

  It just does work.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Who's the sticker on your computer? Who is this?

• 31:55Kara Swisher?

  Oh, that's Betty White saying, fuck you.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  Oh, that's Betty White.

• 31:57Kara Swisher?

  Saying, you're staring at it.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  It looks like Agnes Nixon, who created All My Children, actually.

• 32:01Kara Swisher?

  Well, okay, all right. Now it's Betty White.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:04Kara Swisher?

  You know, because she's the patron saint of all women these days. She'd be good on a celebrity show.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:09Kara Swisher?

  If you did today.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:14Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 32:27Speaker 05

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 32:57Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 33:34Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kara Swisher.

• 33:35Speaker 06

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 33:36Kara Swisher?

  Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech business and politics, and we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in November.

• 33:45Speaker 06

  So we'll bring hot takes, I'll bring the insight, and the dick jokes, and Kara will try, keyword is try, to keep me in check. You'll get to see her hit me in person, live.

• 33:57Kara Swisher?

  I'll do it. If someone has to do it.

• 33:59Speaker 06

  We'll cover AI, whatever chaos Washington has cooked up that week, and every billionaire misbehaving.

• 34:05Kara Swisher?

  That's all of them. And you'll also get to participate in an audience Q and A, so bring your best questions. Scott will probably answer ones you didn't ask. We also have secret special guests, which you'll enjoy for every city. Get tickets at pivottour.com. That's pivottour.com.

• 34:20Speaker 06

  We are selling out, so don't wait, and we look forward to seeing you.

• 34:28Kara Swisher?

  So let's talk about the broader landscape, because you're doing a lot of other things besides doing this. I'm a busy person, but you're incredibly busy. Obviously, you have your matchup with Anderson Cooper. You've been friends for decades.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  By the way, Anderson and I are in DC October 10th and Philly November 14th. And we do, we were on tour for four years. We were in about 60 cities over four years. We talk, tell stories, show a lot of clips, and it's a really fun night. It's like New Year's Eve live on stage, basically.

• 35:03Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  And it's a really great, fun night out. It's called AC2. And we've been doing it for years. I've known Anderson since the early 90s. And of course, we're, this year is going to be our 10th year doing New Year's Eve.

• 35:16Kara Swisher?

  You replaced Kathy Griffin in 2017. You became the most iconic odd couple. Talk a little bit about that. It seemed unlikely. I guess he's a straight man, so to speak.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  You know, we've been friends, as I said, for a very long time. And one of the dynamics of our friendship is that I just, you know, give him a lot of crap and make him giggle. And I not only know how to push his buttons in that regard, but also, I feel like with him, I know how to put quarters in him to get the best out of him. And I love him so much. He's a dear friend of mine, but I also find him incredibly, you know, smart. He's the rare person in a lost breed of people. And he's got a lot of class, he's got a lot of loyalty, he's got a lot of great stories, got a lot of curiosity, knows everybody.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  He is one of the most respected journalists still on television in a moment where everyone's so divisive and divided.

• 36:16Kara Swisher?

  He's a very kind man.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  He's managed to keep, and he's a very kind man.

• 36:19Kara Swisher?

  He really is. He is. You do bring out something in him. It's a really interesting, these live ones, you've done since what year?

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Our tour.

• 36:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, our tour.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  We were doing it, I think, since like 2016 or 17.

• 36:31Kara Swisher?

  So a long time.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Then we stopped because we had kids. And then I begged him like a year ago. I was like, dude, we're, you know, we're leaving money on the table. And also, we had so much fun, we could go somewhere together, so.

• 36:45Kara Swisher?

  And see your fans, and see your fans. So one of the things that, interesting about both of you, now Anderson's part of Warner, Warner Discovery, which is merging with Paramount now. You work for the other big media company, NBC Universal, has its own big shifts with the spinoff of Versen, Comcast now has the spinoff, NBC yet again, into a publicly traded company. I want to talk about that, because I'm an entrepreneurial news person, you are an entrepreneurial entertainment slash news person. Talk about that, what's happening now. How do you look at it as someone who is a producer and who revered, like CBS, the way I revered The Washington Post, The New York Times, but I'm not there anymore?

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Right. Well, I mean, I think that it creates less individuality and less competition, and, you know, I'm down about it. I'm down about it.

• 37:38Kara Swisher?

  What does it do for someone like you, who's a producer?

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, for me, I happen to work for the best brand in television and one of the few brands that actually means something to anyone anymore. So I am so thrilled to have my ship anchored at Bravo, I mean, NBC Universal. So, you know, look, for a channel like Bravo, NBCU has tripled down on Bravo. Every time they split the company, they keep Bravo with us. I think that this Peacock YouTube deal is going to be incredible, not only for Peacock, but then for Bravo, which is a huge driver for Peacock.

• 38:19Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  And Peacock is launching this Bravo verse, which I am hosting, that is absolutely going to be an incredible universe for Bravo fans to get lost in.

• 38:33Kara Swisher?

  What I need to say, how do you, like, in addition to your work at Bravo and CNN, you curate and host shows, the Sirius XM channel, Radio Andy, recently took over Howard Stern's channel 101.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:43Kara Swisher?

  Lot of programming. You've been running it for over 10 years.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:46Kara Swisher?

  You're putting a lot of eggs in different baskets. Talk about that, because I think about that a lot.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Well, I'm a person who, if I am given the opportunity to add to the portfolio of things that I'm doing, and it's something that's interesting to me, I say absolutely yes. And so Anderson and I, this tour, it started at a time when I didn't have kids and we could go on the road 11 weekends of the year. With the radio, I was offered a talk channel 11 years ago, and I thought, wow. At that point, I had left being in charge of programming at Bravo, so I was like, wow, I can not only program this radio channel, but it can be the other cha, it was almost like the anti-Bravo for me.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Dan Rather, Sandra Bernhard has a show on it, Debbie Smith, John Alter. So it became kind of this, I could do long-form interviews with authors, and today I interviewed Stallone about his new book for an hour. And so it just, for me, it makes my endorphins go in a whole other area than producing The Housewives or hosting Watch What Happened Inside.

• 39:58Kara Swisher?

  Again, back to the business thing, people don't think of you that way, but it's very clear you're an entrepreneur in that regard.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:05Kara Swisher?

  When you decide what to do, if you had to give advice, because not everyone can do it, like when, everyone who leaves major places comes to me, like, I should run, I should run a advice service.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 40:16Kara Swisher?

  And the only thing I, two things I tell them, some people aren't going to make it, they just aren't. Like Don Lemon, when he got fired, I was like, here's what you do. Like that kind of stuff, or whoever it happens to be.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  And that worked.

• 40:25Kara Swisher?

  It worked, because I knew it, because it was like that. But in a lot of ways, a lot of people aren't equipped for that. You are attached to a big organization but are doing entrepreneurial.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Well, look, I've been lucky, because usually when you're attached to an organization, you're only attached to that organization. It was amazing to me that I was able, with Sirius, that's all audio, so that's not video. So I'm, I am working in an audio medium. I now have a music channel also there. With the CNN thing, that was a bit of an anomaly, but NBCU knew my relationship with Anderson, and they gave it to me. And I made an argument to them that I think was very correct, that this would be great promotion for me and thus for them.

• 41:12Kara Swisher?

  Well, people don't see that. I say that to a lot of people, like, what do you care if I'm more famous over here?

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:18Kara Swisher?

  Like, I think you need to be promiscuous in the media.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 41:22Kara Swisher?

  You and I both like being.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  I agree. Yes, I love it. I agree, and thankfully, I had a boss that understood that. And, you know, I feel like if you can make a good argument for something, and also, by the way, I've gone to them with many things and said, hey, how do you feel about this? And they're like, yeah, maybe not. And I say, fine. I mean, so I also trust that they're looking out for me, and I have enough other stuff going on that I'm, I'm very happy.

• 41:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you're very multi-hyphenate in a lot of ways. And it's hard to do, and I think you have to be, to be as successful in media today.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  Absolutely. But also, you have to know you can take it on, and it's not going to kill you, and I now have two kids, and I understand what my time commitment to everything is, and I'm a, I'm a highly productive person, and I meet my deadlines, and I know what has to be done.

• 42:20Kara Swisher?

  Right. So, speaking of that, every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours.

• 42:24Speaker 07

  Hey, Andy Cohen, it's your pal, Rosie O'Donnell. How are you? I miss you. I got a question for you for the Kara Swisher Show. The question is, how has being a father changed your life and career? Expand, would you? I hope to see you soon, Andy. Take care. Bye.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Thank you, Rosie. I mean, it's changed everything. It's certainly changed.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  I mean, I have a little bit of an edit button where I say, okay, don't say that you're a dad.

• 43:00Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  But, I mean.

• 43:01Kara Swisher?

  How big is that button?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, I mean, the other day, they put these like electric panties on me and I gave the guest on Watch What Happens Live, the controller, every time they didn't want to answer a question, they could buzz or something like that. So, I mean, you know, I still push the envelope. But, I mean, look, it's made, I think that, uh, viewers have noticed on reunion shows that my dad self comes out a lot as I speak to sometimes either the housewives or to people, you know, some of the younger people that are on some of these shows like Summer House or Next Gen NYC. But, um, I would say, I mean, look, it's just made my priorities totally

• 43:46Speaker 00

  different. And sometimes my agent will call me saying like, I really want you to get this thing or whatever. And I, I say, I'm good. Like, I'm good. I just, I view everything as, if I have to leave the city to do something, it's gonna be time away from my kids. In the year leading up to having Ben, I said yes to everything. I'm gonna host the Attitude Awards in London. I'm gonna be the international ambassador for World Pride in Jerusalem. Like, yes, yes, I'll do it. I'll do it. Because I was like, you are about to be tethered into a different life. And so, go do this now. So, I do feel like I'm so glad that I got

• 44:26Speaker 00

  to, you know, just be famous for 10 years before I had kids so that now I can just be famous at home and not have to go to every party and all that stuff.

• 44:38Kara Swisher?

  What kind of dad are you, would you say?

• 44:40Speaker 00

  I think I'm a, I give myself a really good grade.

• 44:43Kara Swisher?

  I'm glad you said that.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 44:44Kara Swisher?

  I say that about my parenting all the time. And people are like, you shouldn't say that. I'm like, why?

• 44:48Speaker 00

  What, I'm a bad dad? I mean, no. I'm very rule oriented. I'm very schedule oriented. I communicate with my children super clearly. My mom is reactionary, like, everything. And I would just push her envelopes to get her to have a big reaction. So, I am prone to a big reaction. But I also, I love deep talks with my kids. They're seven and four. I have already told Ben, I already made a deal with the guy at the bagel store that he's gonna work there when he's like 15 or 16. We have the deal. I got him John Mayer tickets because I want him to know, like, I'm serious about this. Cause it's hard, by the way. When I was young, I had so many jobs growing up. I mean, I want my kids to work.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  They, you know, my son is really interested in how money works and how does it play in and whatever. And I'm really being very regimented about the tooth fairy and things like that because I'm seeing crazy things happening around him in New York City.

• 45:50Kara Swisher?

  Meaning what?

• 45:51Speaker 00

  Meaning kids that get $20 from the tooth fairy or $10. Yeah.

• 45:56Kara Swisher?

  What is your tooth fairy number?

• 45:57Speaker 00

  $2.

• 45:58Kara Swisher?

  Two? That's low.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  $2 bill.

• 46:00Kara Swisher?

  Minus five.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 46:02Kara Swisher?

  All right.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  $2 bill is a special thing.

• 46:04Kara Swisher?

  You're right.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  It's very rare.

• 46:05Kara Swisher?

  That's a good idea.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  An envelope.

• 46:06Kara Swisher?

  Inflation though, too. It's interesting. You know, it is interesting because like, kids do need that kind of structure. Although you have a big life, too.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:14Kara Swisher?

  I might think about it a lot.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:16Kara Swisher?

  My kid has a monster truck ring with a bunch of kids at the playground right now. They trade monster trucks.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  I mean, I love that. But that's great.

• 46:22Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 46:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. My wife's like, he can't give it away. I'm like, no, this is good.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. No, it's nice. But also, when they wanna give something to a friend.

• 46:30Kara Swisher?

  Well, it's more.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Trade something. We were at a birthday party yesterday. My son is so funny. And on the way home, he, they've got gift bags.

• 46:38Kara Swisher?

  Five or seven.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  This is, my son's seven, she's four. And, um, he said to her, he was trying to trade this really good, like Lego egg thing that, and she was like, I go, Lucy, do not trade that egg. He goes, you know, if you have two of these kush balls, I mean, that's something. That's pretty rare. And I was like, oh my God. And he got her to do the trade. And I was like, you know what, Ben? Good job.

• 47:04Kara Swisher?

  Good for you. Good for you. Good for you.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  I negotiated the deal. I couldn't believe it.

• 47:08Kara Swisher?

  There's a lot of negotiation.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yes. My boyfriend goes, you know what? You either got it or you don't.

• 47:12Kara Swisher?

  That's right. Sales. Sales. He's got sales. When you think about, um, raising them in New York, like, you've got an incredibly high profile. You're also very outspoken, even when your opinions are controversial.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:25Kara Swisher?

  Celebrities are very careful. It's unusual for people to speak out. And you intentionally bait people like President Trump. Uh, it comes down to, as you say in your memoir, which you wrote, the fact that you simply cannot shut the fuck up.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess so. But I also, my mom always taught me to stand up for what I believe in. And I, on the radio, I mean, I let it rip on the radio. I really let it rip.

• 47:50Kara Swisher?

  You let it rip online.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  And on Watch What Happens Live, I mean, I gave Fauci the mazel of the day, uh, the day that he was being dragged in front of Congress and he pled the fifth all those times. And man, did it piss people off. And it pissed off a lot of my viewers. And I speak on Watch What Happens Live when it, look, I'm the only gay host in late night television. Um, but I, you know, I really want to speak up for this community when I need to. Or when I, you know, when I feel like I need to. And I've spoken up about antisemitism and, yeah, it's, I just, to me, it's a matter of principle. And, and I'm

• 48:34Speaker 00

  off, my assistant tweets for me because I found Twitter to be just absolutely just soul crushing. But Threads is pretty fun.

• 48:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you do very well.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  And I like to, you know, troll, what's his name? Matt Schlapp and his wife Mercedes.

• 48:49Kara Swisher?

  Did you think about it? Cause I'm telling you a lot of stuff.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  I should. I know.

• 48:52Kara Swisher?

  No, you should not. Absolutely not.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, Beattie Hagseth titles everything with the title of things that are, have been used as gay porn titles. I mean, like, I'm like, dude, you're, you Falcon Entertainment should sue you. They're, they're like a leading gay porn producer. Like, you're.

• 49:11Kara Swisher?

  And I have sampled the Oprah, so.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  I'm like, this is dialogue straight out of Stryker Force starring Jeff Stryker.

• 49:18Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. It is a real gay porn administration.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  It is.

• 49:21Kara Swisher?

  It is, in many ways. I have to say, sometimes I'm like.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  I am too.

• 49:25Kara Swisher?

  I'm like, hmm, what's happening here? What is going on here? But do you feel like it had, do you, when you think about it, you just do it because you naturally think you can't shut the fuck up? I don't think that's.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  Well, I think that I, look, let me say this. I'm very respectful of the airtime and the opportunity that I have on Watch What Happens Live to do the show. The, the industry has changed so much. I'm so grateful that I get to make this show every day. And I have people who have been with me for 17 years who work on Watch What Happens Live. And I want all of us to stay employed for as long as we can. So, yes, I have very strong beliefs. I know what my show is. And I know what it isn't. And it's not a show about politics. But if I'm all hopped up, then I will come in and say, I wanna speak

• 50:14Speaker 00

  to, you know, I wanna speak about X, Y, or Z. And, and I do it. So, um, I just don't think that I overdo it.

• 50:22Kara Swisher?

  Do you think it's important that people like you do that? I think it is, more than you think.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, look, I feel like.

• 50:30Kara Swisher?

  A lot of celebrities say, oh, I, why do people not listen to me? I'm like, why not? You're a citizen too.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  Look, I, I'm of Tuma. Every so often, something will backfire and I'll think, you know what? I'm just gonna keep my head down and whatever.

• 50:41Kara Swisher?

  What backfired?

• 50:42Speaker 00

  And that, I don't know. I don't know. Just, it may be something that I just get overwhelmingly negative response to. But that's the only response I'm looking at. You know, who knows? But then I may just get in my head about something. But no, I think, look, when I do these book tours and I meet a kid who says, I grew up in rural wherever and you were the only gay person on television. Or moms come up to me and say, I used to look at you. And then when you had your kid, I turned to my son and said, you can do it too. So, you know, that means, I think visibility always means something and is important. And I feel strongly about it.

• 51:22Kara Swisher?

  So, on that, and then I wanna finish talking about the future of reality TV. When you think about being a parent, like, a lot of people say gay parents. I'm like, what in the world is a gay parent?

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:30Kara Swisher?

  Except more fun.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 51:32Kara Swisher?

  More fun. Absolutely. Fucking more. Better parents. I think the lesbians should raise everybody. But that's different. The gay men are doing a good job.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Lesbians should run the world. I mean, let's be real.

• 51:46Kara Swisher?

  Let's be real.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Y'all, keep it together. You have it organized. It is, I mean, my assistant is one of the great lesbians in America, Darren Karp. And, I mean, she just gets shit done. I mean, it's like, and, you know, there's not much drama. Talking about just keep your head down. Make it happen. So to speak. Get out the hammer and the nail. I mean, you know.

• 52:14Kara Swisher?

  There's a great online guy who talks about his lesbian neighbors. I don't know if you've ever seen him. He's very funny. He, they do everything.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:20Kara Swisher?

  He's like, we have a potluck and it has everything.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Yes. No. I mean, I, I agree.

• 52:25Kara Swisher?

  But when you think about it, and more serious thing, I think it's really important to model gay parents who are gay. I don't say gay parenting because I don't think it's different than other parenting.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 52:34Kara Swisher?

  But one of the things I worry about are my kids. And now I have older kids. They're now, at the time.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  You worry about your kids growing up in this environment?

• 52:41Kara Swisher?

  Well, you know, it was interesting because of my older kids, it was, they passed, um, the proposition in California, Proposition 8, that tried to end gay marriage.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:50Kara Swisher?

  When my kids were little. And it's the year Obama won. And my son at the time was eight or nine. Um, he's 25 now. And he said, can we stay a family? I'll never forget it. It was devastating. Are we still a family? Which is weird. Now, fast forward, since I'm a straight white man now, I have a second set of kids. Same thing is happening with gay, with gay and lesbian stuff, which is.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  Yes, it is.

• 53:13Kara Swisher?

  I worry again about the same thing.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Thing, what is interesting is, so far, they're seven and, and four. They don't know that gay people are discriminated against. That hasn't gotten to them. They grew up with Anderson's kids.

• 53:29Kara Swisher?

  Right, yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  We had gay parents down the hall from us. There are gay parents in their schools. So, they don't think it's unusual to have two dads.

• 53:38Kara Swisher?

  They live in New York.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  And they live in New York.

• 53:39Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  And so, but I'm so grateful for it. And I've said to my kids, by the way, do you, does it make you sad that you don't have a mom? Because they see moms on, you know. Um, and Ben has said, well, if we had a mom, we wouldn't have you, daddy.

• 53:56Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 53:56Speaker 00

  And you're the best. So, I mean, there, he's so high on my supply that, I mean, that's not literal. Um, but, but, uh, but he's into me. They're both very into me. So, they see it in that way.

• 54:10Kara Swisher?

  Do you worry about them? Moment now, more and more.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course I do. Of course I do.

• 54:17Kara Swisher?

  Or are we at the end of this?

• 54:18Speaker 00

  I don't know where the fuck we are, but I do worry about it. But what I think you can, the only thing you can do in moments like this, you really just have to focus on your family and your children and looking within and making sure they're great and that you're all there with each other. I mean, because that's something that you can control. And you donate to the State's Project, which I'm very, do you know about the State's Project? The State's Project is amazing organization for people. There's so much hopelessness in politics and in activism right now.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  As much as the president has and will and continues to grift and cheat and mess things up, everything's happens in the state houses.

• 55:07Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  And the State's Project isolates the most key races. And when you give to them, you target a certain state or race. So the State's Project is just an amazing organization that you can get involved with and not lose your cool.

• 55:24Kara Swisher?

  Not lose your cool, yeah, because it feels, you never know what's gonna happen.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  You don't, you don't.

• 55:27Kara Swisher?

  All right, I'm gonna finish up looking for the future of reality television.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 55:30Kara Swisher?

  Last two questions. You said that Watch What Happens Live is a short attention span theater.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  It is.

• 55:34Kara Swisher?

  It's made to be a viral show without making it be a viral show.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:38Kara Swisher?

  It's doing well as late show on CBS ends and late night viewership is in decline.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:43Kara Swisher?

  Talk about that and where do you see it going?

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Well, I'm amazed that, I'm not amazed. Where I see it going is that hopefully whoever is president after Trump.

• 55:58Kara Swisher?

  Do you have a favorite?

• 56:00Speaker 00

  And that include, I mean, I'm, I'm loving my man in Georgia right now, but.

• 56:05Kara Swisher?

  Hotlanta?

• 56:07Speaker 00

  What'd you say?

• 56:07Kara Swisher?

  I call him Hotlanta.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  Hotlanta, yes. But, uh, but that includes, you know, listen, I have to keep hopeful. I'm a, I'm an optimistic person. So I'm gonna say even J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio, if they were to be president. I'm going to hope that they're not going to weaponize the FCC against everything and everyone, which is what's happening now. And I'm going to hope that the streamers will start developing some live late night shows that can do things without offending, you know, this man, whoever or woman, whoever it is.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  And that, that, that late night show, right now, I just think there's, the viewership of network television has changed.

• 56:58Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Um, the way that daily talk shows are streamed has changed because it doesn't really, there is no habit for going on Hulu.

• 57:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  And watching an episode of Jimmy Kimmel from last night. Whereas when you watched NBC after the news, you knew that you wanted to watch The Tonight Show. So hopefully the streamers, which have not been able to develop and produce a hit talk show, which is kind of incredible. So I am hopeful that there will be, once this insanity stops. I mean, it is, wouldn't you think that Netflix would be saying?

• 57:45Kara Swisher?

  One would.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Let's, one might think that they would say, look, Colbert had 3 million viewers a night. That's not, you know, that's not nothing, like, let's.

• 57:56Kara Swisher?

  Would you wanna do something like that? Would you?

• 57:58Speaker 00

  I'm really happy doing what I'm doing.

• 58:00Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  I have a huge platform.

• 58:02Kara Swisher?

  You're a bit like appointment television, which doesn't exist anymore.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  Bravo is, and I'm a part of that. And so I'm really happy where I am. I wanna keep doing Watch What Happens Live for as long as they have me. And then the way I'm exercising my brain on Sirius XM is, is really fun, so I'm great.

• 58:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and you're putting out books too, like the scrapbook.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  I love, look, I have an imprint at Crown. I published Mariah Carey's book, which was the number one bestseller. I published a book that's in Oral History, The Real Housewives. It was the number one New York Times bestseller. And this, Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, it's a coffee table book. It is a great Christmas present. It comes out October 20th, and so I'm hoping this will be my sixth bestseller.

• 58:50Kara Swisher?

  For a friend of mine who watches all your Housewives.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  I love that, thank you.

• 58:53Kara Swisher?

  Which they love it.

• 58:53Speaker 00

  So, but yeah, I mean, I, look, I believe in doing as much as you can because anything can go away. And so only do what you can control of.

• 59:02Kara Swisher?

  Anything can go away?

• 59:04Speaker 00

  Not really. What drives me is being happy in what I'm doing.

• 59:09Kara Swisher?

  Me too.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  And I wouldn't say yes to something unless it was gonna make me happy. So people offer me things all the time and I say, that's not gonna add, that's not additive to my life.

• 59:20Kara Swisher?

  It's not, like, I just finished Ari Emanuel's book, it's about loss. Everything drives him is loss and desperation.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  What drives me is kind of, is it organic? Does it fit with me? Will it fit with my life? Will it make me happy, you know? And I mean, the most important thing is my kid, can I do, you know, can I still take my kids to school every day? You know?

• 59:40Kara Swisher?

  Right, in New York, is there anything you've done that you wanna do? Would you like to run for office or?

• 59:46Speaker 00

  No. I mean, uh, no, I'm good.

• 59:49Kara Swisher?

  Nothing? Nothing you'd like to make that you see and you're like, hmm?

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Not really.

• 59:53Kara Swisher?

  Not really.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  Not really. Is that bad?

• 59:56Kara Swisher?

  No, it's not bad.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:57Kara Swisher?

  Why is it bad?

• 59:57Speaker 00

  I wanna keep writing books, um, and, you know, maybe someday I'll like teach a course in media.

• 1:00:06Kara Swisher?

  A professor.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that would be fun. Why not? Is that funny, Kara Swisher?

• 1:00:10Kara Swisher?

  Yes, it's funny.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Why is that funny?

• 1:00:12Kara Swisher?

  It's funny, Scott Galloway's a professor, how ridiculous, the bar is very low.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Well, all right, well, I think that I would be high on that bar, yes.

• 1:00:20Kara Swisher?

  Harvard.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  I would be a great professor, are you kidding me?

• 1:00:23Kara Swisher?

  In school?

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Yes, what?

• 1:00:24Kara Swisher?

  School of Hard Knocks, what?

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:26Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  What's the best communication school in, Tisch, NYU Tisch.

• 1:00:32Kara Swisher?

  All right, okay.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  They would be lucky to have me, Kara.

• 1:00:35Kara Swisher?

  Lucky to have you.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  Yes, they would.

• 1:00:37Kara Swisher?

  I would agree with you.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  You're not, you're goading me.

• 1:00:39Kara Swisher?

  No, I'm not, no, because my motto is you're lucky to have me wherever I go.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  Yes, well, are you kidding me?

• 1:00:44Kara Swisher?

  Years ago, when I was working, someone said they were lucky to be here. And I said, you're lucky to have me.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  That's funny. See, I mean, not many people can get away with saying that, and I.

• 1:00:54Kara Swisher?

  I bet you could.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  It's not the best look for a man to say that. I feel like a woman saying that is like, you go, girl. And a man saying that is, wow, you are a douchebag.

• 1:01:06Kara Swisher?

  No, you are not a douchebag whatsoever, anyway.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  That's why I'm not gonna say that.

• 1:01:10Kara Swisher?

  All right, fine, you just did a second ago, anyway, I appreciate it.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  My presence is my presence.

• 1:01:14Kara Swisher?

  You be you.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  Can I say that?

• 1:01:15Kara Swisher?

  Yes, yeah, that, oh, I like that, your presence is my presence, nice. Well, I'm gonna steal that one.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  It's the same, it's kind of the same thing.

• 1:01:22Kara Swisher?

  Andy, thank you, he's got this Bravo scrapbook out. I really, I think what you make is wonderful, actually, and I'm so glad I stalked you.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  Thank you, I'm so glad I.

• 1:01:30Kara Swisher?

  Anytime.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  Yes, you know, listen, when Anderson texts and says, I was like, oh my.

• 1:01:35Kara Swisher?

  I got Anderson to do it.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Oh my God, wow, yes, I'm in.

• 1:01:38Kara Swisher?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:01:46Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Vicky Veragolina, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Olivia Brierley, Megan Burney, and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Lissa Soap, Rosemary Ho, Jim Mackel, and Manolo Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Requan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're welcome in the Bravo Clubhouse. If not, I might have to flip a dinner table at you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

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