Your Phone Is Targeting You | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

Mike Yeagley joins me to break down how mobile devices, ad tech, commercial location data, and data brokers create major OPSEC risks for service members, case officers, and anyone working in national security. He explains how adversaries can buy or exploit pattern-of-life data, why privacy settings often don’t go far enough, and what the future of tradecraft looks like in an age of ubiquitous technical surveillance. Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Subscribe to our newsletter!!!! https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join grab Jack's new book here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/ "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio 00:00 — Start / Mike Yeagley joins Eyes On Geopolitics 00:25 — Mobile devices, ad tech, and the OPSEC risk to operators 03:14 — Commercial location data and how adversaries can target U. S. personnel 04:57 — Why privacy settings don’t actually protect your data 07:12 — Ad IDs, GPS toggles, and how apps still resolve your location 10:33 — Could Iran use commercial data to target U. S. troops? 14:19 — How adversaries buy data through brokers and proxies 19:25 — Why regulating the data economy is so difficult 22:10 — How commercial data erodes tradecraft and operational ambiguity 29:24 — What case officers and operators can do to reduce digital exposure 36:17 — Ubiquitous technical surveillance and the future of human intelligence 41:45 — Russia and Iran using gaming platforms, crypto, and gig-style tasking 47:24 — Near-real-time data buys, pattern-of-life tracking, and final thoughts Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:00Speaker 03

  Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. I'm here with Mike Yegly. Mike has had an extensive career, a pretty interesting one, I'd say even a novel one when it comes to like, you know, national security. Mike worked with a, you know, bunch of tier-one units, JSOC, SOCOM, and stuff like that, working on, I mean, what would you say you worked, you would be able to describe it better than I can?

• 1:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, novel is definitely a way to describe it. I mean, the problem that we were focusing on that has reemerged with attention and vigor is the risk to operational security from the mobile devices that we all carry. And the intent and design of these mobile devices is fundamentally to collect data about the user and model them into a cohort that advertisers can sell stuff to. Now-

• 2:06Speaker 04

  What shifted is it's not just advertisers that are sort of monetizing the data. The conversion metrics are different when you're talking about an adversary, but the intent and the behavioral patterns, whether you're trying to sell or target, roughly the same. And it's if you think about this low cost way of deploying millions of sensors into the pockets and homes and work locations of protected populations. You know, that that becomes a significant operational security risk

• 2:48Speaker 04

  that we demonstrated crudely 10 years ago, tracking operators, you know, without any real, we weren't looking for their forward operating base, but we had enough to start to be able to reveal a forward operating base and then track the operator to his home and then start tracking what his spouse does and where his kids go to school. And those those rhythms, those patterns of life that transcend both what you do for work and what you're doing personally,

• 3:30Speaker 04

  that removal of ambiguity that we've decided we no longer cherish and hold true because we've got to reveal everything about ourselves every minute of the day. That that creates friction for the for the operational community, whether you're a special mission unit operator, case officer, FBI agent, ICE agent. You know, the the patterns of life is a significant operational security risk. And it's the mobile device that that is that sort of foundational layer.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like the gateway, huh? It's like the gateway to like all the information about you.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  It's pretty scary to think about, right? Because we all kind of want our, our, uh, you know, we want our convenience. We want our phone to be able to do everything for us and stuff like that. And we really kind of, it's kind of a trade off that we don't think about.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  And I know like we, you know, the America, America's been doing it and JSOC and CIA has probably been doing this for a long time, right? Like using, you know, commercial location data to target other enemies of the United States and stuff like that. And you shot me over this, the press release from, uh, Senator Wyden's office out of Oregon. I mean, it's him and like 12 other, other bipartisan members of Congress, uh, saying like foreign advi- adversaries are using commercial data to target US service members in the Middle East. And I'm sure China's probably using it to track them all over the world, obviously. And, uh, yeah, we had a great, like you, you had a great appearance on the team house. I, I, you know,

• 5:18Speaker 03

  implore everybody to go check out your full episode on the team house, talking about your career, what you got into and stuff like that. It's pretty crazy because we don't really think about the consequences. And sure, like the layman person that's not working in national security, maybe they don't care as much. Uh, sure. Uh, but if you, you have a serious job where you have a top secret or you're, you're out going on operations or, and stuff like that, that's something I would hope like the DOD and CIA are bringing people in like you to like, kind of,

• 5:54Speaker 03

  I guess, beef up their operational security.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's, it's a complicated topic. And, and you're right. We all want conveniences. We all want our smartphones to do these amazing things. Um, and we're not, there isn't a, we're not going to return to an era uh, where, where we're not connected like this.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  And really, the risk and the mechanics that create that risk, whether you're an operator or just a citizen that values privacy and agency and kind of wants to be left alone, but still be able to use a mobile phone or a smartphone. We need to sort of look at this from a first principles perspective, which is we understand the fundamental issue. It's this commercial data and the device is that foundational risk surface. So let's break it down. You know, every app that you have on your phone is a collection surface.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  It may do things that are helpful, but its privileged position on your phone enables it to interrogate your device without any governance. And I will tell you that privacy and the privacy policies that have come out of state, federal government and privacy settings, it's really, they're not, it's not real privacy. If we, if we think about privacy settings on, on the current sort of

• 7:40Speaker 04

  the two dominant platforms, they enable a user to indicate a preference to, and let's talk about the two selectors that the, that, that the Senate, Armed Services Committee, Senator Wyden, who's leading this charge across a variety of domains, the, the risk to operators and to personnel being the latest. If we think about the, the selectors that are of most concern, it's this thing called an ad ID, which is this crude way of doing things that a cookie would do on a browser,

• 8:24Speaker 04

  but on a mobile device and location.

• 8:29Speaker 04

  So let's start with location first. You can toggle and indicate your preference that an app not extract or access the GPS sensor on your device. That does not mean the app is not going to resolve your location through other means from the data that it can inspect on your device. So the letter is talking about location data. And maybe everybody toggles that selector on your phone not to track location. All that is doing is indicating your preference

• 9:11Speaker 04

  that the app not access the sensor. It's going to figure out where you are through a host of other data features, telemetry that your device is collecting. And in many ways, it's far more probative than than the GPS. And then the ad ID, again, it's just indicating your preference not for an app not to track you. There's no governance at the device layer to ensure that that's policy that's being enforced. It's you're indicating a preference. And again, like with location data or location, there are a variety of different ways to assign

• 9:54Speaker 04

  an identifier to you based upon the behavioral patterns that can be resolved through the telemetry on your device that you do not control, modeled in ways that you cannot perceive. Because we're looking for these non-obvious patterns. Think about it this way, you know, developing a pattern using the gyroscope, battery level, accelerometer and screen orientation.

• 10:25Speaker 04

  Is there a pattern in there? Maybe, maybe not, but at scale, across the population of everybody that these platforms and systems are modeling, behavioral deviation becomes easily, becomes distinguishable. And that's, that's the risk where we are today. Senator Wyden and the Armed Services Committee, the letter and the focus is really on this, the way in which we were doing it 10 years ago. But the platforms, apps, they've moved on to different methodologies. So my concern is that the, the, the intent of the Senate

• 11:09Speaker 04

  sort of misses the current state of the risk. And, and we're not, we're not attacking, we're not attacking that.

• 11:22Speaker 04

  Which, which just maintains exposure and gives us the impression that, you know, there's something that is protecting us. And that's just not the case.

• 11:30Speaker 03

  Mike, I saw a report early on, we started bombing Iran, that the Iranians used some of that information or some of those techniques to kind of triangulate where we, where our guys were. And it might have caused like people, like the 13, you know, some of the 13 service members that passed, that got killed to get killed, or, you know, the hundreds that have been injured. Is that, is that factual?

• 11:56Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't know if, if, if the adversary, you know, used commercially available location data for targeting. But I will tell you this, if you have a variety of devices that are clustered, that you can reasonably infer our US personnel, because the location data, the GPS sensor hadn't been turned off. And this is where I kind of lose my, my mind on this, because these are alleged DoD issued devices, where the ad ID is still available, a GPS, you know, and GPS is highly precise. So if you start seeing clusters of devices,

• 12:38Speaker 04

  You know, based somewhere, you can infer, well, that's US personnel. They will certainly look at other targeting data and intelligence. But if you're looking for, you know, target cues about where US personnel are stationed, of course, this is possible.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  And of course, an adversary can do it. And, you know, 10 years ago, when I was standing in front of a room at JSOC,

• 13:09Speaker 04

  you know, I said to them, if a history major from St. Lawrence University can expose your forward operating base to the Far cement factory in Syria, and then target and bring and identify where where your operators live. If I can do it, certainly an adversary can if they're not already. We don't have, you know, dominion or a monopoly on on these things. And we must assume that an adversary is as equally hungry for targeting information as we are.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  And this is perhaps, you know, a lesson learned. Unfortunately, it required casualties in order for anybody of consequence to take notice. And that, I don't know, that's dereliction. I don't know what to characterize that is. And I understand, you know, I look at these things, you know, in a perfect. If I were in in charge, this is how I do things. And I know things don't work that way. But these are easy fixes. We're, you know, we need the Senate Armed Services to get involved in the easy fix,

• 14:32Speaker 04

  the fix that should have been applied de facto, full stop 10 years ago. And here we are today, still talking about something that, you know, is a decade old.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  But notwithstanding, we need to fix this.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  We have tools and tech that can address this. And we need to make this a priority because these are the easy ways of

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:04Speaker 04

  You know, propagating OPSEC across the entire continuum of OPSEC risk.

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• 20:40Speaker 03

  I love like an example, like, so what would it take for an adversary to exploit commercial data? They have to buy data that's already been hacked and is online or like, do they hack an app and somebody downloads an app? Like, how does it, how does it work?

• 20:55Speaker 04

  I think it's, let's, I think it's far easier than that. I think through, I'll just, this is how I did it. You develop a sort of a cover, you know, some commercial use case as to why you're even in the business or interested in commercial location data. Maybe you set up a proxy,

• 21:18Speaker 04

  easy to do outside of Tehran. So you maybe have a proxy based in Turkey or Oman or, you know, a country like that. And you're buying the data. You don't have to hack. You don't have to hack it up. You don't have to engineer anything.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  You know, 10 years ago, again, you know, I had to, I had to defend my methodology. And explain that, you know, I didn't hack, intercept, engineer. I didn't, you know, follow anybody. I bought it. I bought it, sitting in a home office. And 10 years ago, there wasn't a lot of challenge. It was, you know, like if you're in the market to buy, we're in the market to sell.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  Probably a little, there's maybe a little bit more friction today because some of these companies have to provide reporting and, and, you know, they're on the hook if they sell to an adversary, but if it's a proxy, if it's a legitimate proxy, that I sell to an adversary.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Getting it.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  How do they know? Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  But it's, you know, buying, buying this stuff is, you know, is a far, requires fewer higher risk operations. You don't need to have, you know, case officers, you don't need to have this sort of bespoke, unique capability. You just need to know how to buy it, how to talk it, how to explain what it is that you want. And that's not hard to do.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Is it legal to buy this stuff? For the most part, yeah, right? Like there are data brokers out there that, or is it like a gray area?

• 23:04Speaker 04

  I feel like, you know, the line from Pulp Fiction, you know, Pulp Fiction, where

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Of course, yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  Samuel Jackson's or now John Travolta's like, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to buy it. It's legal to carry, you know, that line where he's, and, and then he says, and, and they, and the police can't even, you know, they can't even, they're not allowed to inspect or, or whatever that line was. But no, the answer to these is, yeah, it is legal.

• 23:34Speaker 04

  It is, this is a market.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  There are big businesses involved in this in in marketing technology or ad tech.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  Microsoft has a business, Oracle had a business, but they sort of deprecated it. This is a big business and if you think about all of the credit bureaus, you know, their entire business model is predicated on on these types of data sets that

• 24:05Speaker 04

  are

• 24:06Speaker 03

  And like Credit bureaus can go ahead and flip them?

• 24:10Speaker 04

  Say that again?

• 24:13Speaker 03

  Okay, so credit bureaus can just go ahead and flip that information, no problem?

• 24:18Speaker 04

  So a credit bureau is is creating credit products. But if you if you think about the modern sort of data broker industry, a few years ago, Tim Cook sort of launched a fatwa against data brokers because he kept, you know, he was sick and tired of hearing about the the the malfeasance of data brokers, you know, tracking people. And so that triggered the the suppression of the ad ID and GPS data, which is sort of the lifeblood of a data broker. So what a data broker is is going to do now is they're going to take all of this raw data and build

• 24:58Speaker 04

  products around it. So if I'm an advertiser, going to go to an audience attribution firm, which buys a lot of data or collects a lot of data.

• 25:10Speaker 04

  And I'm going to buy an audience of, you know, people that are of a certain demographic, certain income, education, profession, et cetera, et cetera, in order to do targeted advertising as an adversary. And and and working with those firms to actually acquire the raw data behind those products is just a matter of of negotiation.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Man, I mean, are there are there any steps that like? The US government could take to like reel that in or it's just like it's a free market, you know, go ahead. You gave up your data. It's it's now a product and can be marketed and sold to whoever wants it.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. So this is, this is where policy, like you're trying to regulate these businesses

• 26:06Speaker 04

  is hard because methods, tech change so rapidly. So you regulate one element and six months later, the, the market has, has, has developed a new technique, whether they develop that new technique because of regulation or because of, of optimization, who knows? But policy, it's difficult for policy to keep up with this, with the state of change because the incentives are just, are so massive. I mean, the 10 trillion, we're trying to regulate $10 trillion economy that is opaque.

• 26:47Speaker 04

  It's not like trying to regulate the banks. There is no FINRA or there's no bank regulation. There's no data regulation that everybody plays by a certain rule and we've got, you know, AML policies and KYC. So from a policy perspective, you know, they're, they're, they're moving in the right direction. They recognize that the risk is acute, but recognizing the acute risk and actually applying techniques or technologies that we're not trying to put a $10 trillion

• 27:29Speaker 04

  economy out of business, but to give the user, the operator, the case officer, the special agent, the ICE agent capability to inject on their own some friction in that commercial data economy as a means of foundational OPSEC. You know, we think about

• 27:53Speaker 04

  Tradecraft and we have all sorts of techniques and approaches and you spend a lot of time learning Tradecraft, which is absolutely foundational to to operational, you know, objectives. Where the modern economy has disrupted that is this loss of ambiguity that we all used to enjoy, we just sort of took for granted. Maybe you knew somebody was a special mission unit operator, but you didn't really know. And nowadays, now, now I know what unit he's in. I know that he's a, you know, I know that he's a case officer that is spends a lot

• 28:38Speaker 04

  of his time or is focused on Africa or Western Hemisphere. That ambiguity was a substrate for Tradecraft because we started at a baseline and now that baseline has been eroded, has collapsed. And so you're starting, you're starting the mission and your pattern of life, your behavior is already out there. And so it's a, it's, it's a disadvantage. But for, for a long time now, you know, I would, I would sit in front of the operational community and explain to them what they're up against.

• 29:18Speaker 04

  And the question, the fundamental question that always came back was how do I get, how do I get out of commercial data? Well, it's that there's not a, there's not a maximalist approach to fix that. However, if commercial data is imposing this operational risk, we need to, we need to inject some friction into that business model and restore some of that user choice in what they're sharing, what an app can collect, what it, and what it can extract.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  Now, apps have to collect and understand device diagnostics in order to function. That is certainly a reasonable expectation. But when you look at

• 30:10Speaker 04

  The the the delta between what they're collecting that's essential to function and everything else. It's like I have this flashlight app. Why does it need to know my network configuration? It doesn't. I need light. Yeah. Show me fucking light. I don't need you to, you know, bet improve my user experience. Like, give me a break. But when you look at and you're able to see what an app is doing on your device, which you cannot do now, because they're the platforms are, are, you know, they're sort of they want to provide privacy, but their their business depends upon an app thriving. You know, like

• 30:54Speaker 04

  there's only so much they can do. And and and that governance layer built into the operating system on an iPhone or an Android just does not exist.

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, why do they want to throw a wrench into their money making operation, right? Without they're not going to do something like that unless they're legally forced to. They're not going to just give it up. It's interesting, too. Like when I download an app, particularly on iPhone, it's so it always gives me the like the creeps a little bit because it says at it gives you like a notification, ask app to not like track your location. Why do I have to ask the app? Why don't I just say, no, don't track my location? I need permission from the app to not track my location. Just the way that they phrase the prompt that they give you is super like it gives me the creeps for some reason. And I always like the second thing like, oh, maybe I should delete this fucking app.

• 31:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. And isn't that interesting? It's it's ask app not to track. The linguistics of it is very, you know, and like I said before, that that is you are indicating a preference, whether the app respects your preference.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  That's up to the app. That's not a policy that you're invoking. That's up to the app. You have indicated a preference not to reveal your ad ID in that selector for app asked not to track or your GPS sensor. Those are user preferences that you're indicating and not necessarily enforced by policy. You're just, you know, when the app sees your user session, it's, you know, there's a little field that says, you know, user is as indicated preference for you to not to track. Okay, I'll respect that or tuck that. I'm going to try.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, it's literally every app and, you know, a developer to developer, like who knows? Like if you had TikTok and I have a cap cut on my phone, right? Cat cut is the same developer or it's Chinese developer that's a known like that is, I guess, been pinged as a possibly Chinese intelligence or whatever it is, like connected to the CCP. And for a while, it was not, you weren't allowed to use it. Like when the whole TikTok thing was going on is, I don't know if it's the same developer. I don't know exactly, but you're asking developer to developer app developer to maybe please, if you don't mind, not track my location and all my data. Like, what are they

• 33:32Speaker 03

  going to do? You're going to think, you know, you can't give everybody the benefit of the doubt, even American developers, you know, like.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, look at the, so when Apple invoked app tracking transparency, this privacy panel that suppressed the ad ID and location services. I mean, that really throttled Meta's business for a couple of quarters. I mean, like, that was a big, that was a big quarter revenue miss because the gig was up. Meta could no longer claim that cat videos, you know, sell sneakers. They were really dependent upon attributing behavior through these stable identifiers. But if you look at Meta's recovery in this post-privacy environment, they're doing just

• 34:21Speaker 04

  fine. And how are they doing just fine?

• 34:24Speaker 03

  They had a great quarter.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  Because they're not, they're not.

• 34:29Speaker 04

  You know, laying awake at night worried about user privacy. They've just gone deeper into the device and they've developed, you know, different cross app partnerships where if, if you're not, if you're not a meta user,

• 34:43Speaker 04

  there's a meta SDK on that app and meta is monetizing you that way. I mean, it's.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  What's a meta SDK?

• 34:53Speaker 04

  It's just a little, it's, it's, think about an SDK. Like when you build a house, you've got a general contractor. That's the app. The app is going to have a bunch of SDKs that provide functionality. And a lot of that functionality is, you know, like I'm going to just use an SDK. I'm not going to build my own proprietary, you know, payment capability. Right? I'm going to use an SDK.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  I see.

• 35:16Speaker 04

  That, that, you know, and the SDK is the plumber, the electrician, the carpenter, right? To build your app functionality. And so some of these SDKs are only there to collect data and monetize data for, for.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Uh, question, how does a guy or a girl who's working overseas, whether it's a case officer or an SMU person? How do they, you know, go about their jobs? I guess it's, I guess the question doesn't even apply for just overseas, but let's just talk about overseas. How do they avoid things like that outside of getting an unplugged phone?

• 35:53Speaker 04

  Okay. Yeah. Um, so, uh, you know that I'm on the board of advisors of unplugged. Um, so whether, so it, it goes down, goes back to this. How do we, how do we inject some friction into the flow of our personal data uh, to these opaque networks? And the current configuration of all of the devices, you know, the, the two major platform, duopoly.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  They are, they are part of that cartel.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Which is Apple and Android, right?

• 36:29Speaker 04

  Correct. Yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Just for the, for folks listening.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  And they are fundamentally incentivized to make their devices easy for an app to collect, extract and monetize.

• 36:47Speaker 04

  As a, as a user, we have to go, how, we have to think about, how do I supervise? Or how do I, almost like an intervention? Before all of that data flows from my device to this opaque network? How do I intervene and, and mitigate some of that? And until we start thinking about pri- privacy as an integration of, of hardware and software, where privacy is built into the, into the, is engineered into the device.

• 37:26Speaker 04

  We're, we're going to be susceptible to this. So, you know, use a VPN. It's, it's, it's, there's nothing wrong with using a VPN, but all VPN is doing is mediating your traffic. Everything that's going over that pipe has already been extracted. So VPN is not offering you any privacy at that identifier layer or at that telemetry layer from your device. Privacy settings have already sort of blasted that. It's, it's really theater, makes you feel good, but the app is gonna, is gonna figure out a way to either resolve your location or attribute you through the behavior of your device.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  So until we mediate what an app is collecting on your device and, and give the user options to suppress that flow of telemetry. We're gonna be, we're gonna be chasing this problem indefinitely.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like I'll give a free plug to unplugged. Uh, you know, we're in the middle of talking about unplugged becoming a sponsor of the show. Full disclosure, but you know, I got a phone from unplugged and I did the orientation. First off, the orientation is like opens your mind up to what the phone can actually do. It's pretty incredible, honestly. So if you are worried about your location or you know, just all the kinds of stuff that could get sucked out. From all these apps that we all get, we all have. Unplugged does seem like the right fit and I'm not like, we're not getting paid, not yet anyway.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  So, and I had the orientation and frankly, I was, I was extremely impressed by it like. Especially the new operating system and Jacob, one of the people that like, you know, I guess the customer success, one of the customer success guys. Was like, you know, super dialed into it and uh. And I remember texting Jack Murphy afterwards. I was like, yo, this phone is pretty fucking impressive, like what you can and can't do. It's like. The, and I hate to sound like I'm selling it because I'm really not like, it's just a fact, like from what I've gathered from just the orientation and playing around with the phone. Is uh, it feels like a James Bond phone because you could like reset it like super quick if you needed to. So.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Outside of that, I don't really think there's like another company doing that. Um. So.

• 40:03Speaker 04

  It's a good point.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  People are really worried about.

• 40:06Speaker 04

  Yep. Yeah, and, and the white glove onboarding experience, uh, you know, is not just because you're super handsome. We do that for everybody.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  I thought that was just for me, god damn it.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  That's part of the, that's part of the, that's part of the deal. But you know, the, the community. Um, is not, has, has spent a lot of time and a lot of money developing, you know, special phones, op phones. Unplugged is built for a consumer, so.

• 40:37Speaker 04

  If we think about what we need to do for operators, we don't want to create new signatures that are revealing because it's a phone that has special egress points and, you know, acts differently and looks different than a consumer device. Whereas the unplugged phone or a privacy, a privacy phone built for a consumer is meant to not create new signatures that this is a special operator or case officer. It's, this is an individual who values privacy and carries a device that, that enables that

• 41:22Speaker 04

  without, without it looking like, you know, one of these op phones that are concerning, considering the amount of data that an adversary can collect and, and discover, okay, this is what an op phone looks like. Show me all of the other op phones that are in my country or phones that look like that. That's the, that's the math. A lookalike model is, is really how advertising targeting is built. Show me, this person just bought a, you know, $150,000 G-Wagon. Show me other people like him or her.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:58Speaker 04

  To target. And that's the math behind this. So, um, you know, we don't want to build new technology that is specific to a community. This is, this is privacy, but the, the new substrate of tradecraft or, or opsec starts with privacy and all that ambiguity that I.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's interesting how, you know, I've heard a couple CIA guys talk about like, how it's going to be very difficult to do like the, the, what do you, how do you, would you describe it? Like the, um, uh, legacy style of human, uh, collection because, you know, ubiquitous tele, technical surveillance is everywhere and specifically if you're a liaison in an embassy somewhere, like you're going to be, you know, the cyclops eye will be pointed at you specifically. Um, any like tips or tricks that you would give?

• 43:02Speaker 03

  Obviously, I guess you can't really say it out loud if you do have like real, real insight, but. Like what can somebody like that do or what will human intelligence really look like in the next 10, 20, 30 years?

• 43:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, you all have had people that have worked this problem.

• 43:22Speaker 04

  You know, ubiquitous technical surveillance almost became this living, breathing thing that constrained. It is constraining, but it is going to require that we think about tradecraft or the operational

• 43:45Speaker 04

  differently. And we've seen this before. We have historical references. The agency is infamous for something called Moscow rules, where you need to figure out a different way to operate in a really hostile, aggressive environment. And they did. And they, some of the things they came up with were crude, but creative as hell to enable, to be able to operate and create those windows, those gaps where they could have a meeting without physical surveillance.

• 44:19Speaker 04

  And this environment is really, is no different. This, this new environment and ubiquitous technical surveillance where, you know, there is no neutral ground anymore because who knows? And some of these countries, all of their telecom is, has been, you know, gifted by China as part of their Belt and Road Initiative.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  So there's no neutral ground in it safely. Like everywhere is a hostile environment or could potentially be a hostile environment because of ubiquitous technical surveillance. And so this just is, is, it's going to require a more holistic approach to operational readiness. If, if you are making that left turn into CIA headquarters every day with your phone on and you think you're going to go black anywhere, forget it. It's not, not possible. Or it's possible, but with significant risks. So how do we, how do we mitigate this? And how do we, how do we create?

• 45:29Speaker 04

  We refabricate some some ambiguity so that we have this operational range. And I think the the first step is really looking at this commercial data problem and applying solutions that add some friction to that to that the velocity of that data that's flowing.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  So, you know, you've been working in the space for a long time. Do you think that now, I mean, it's, I feel like it's been trending this way for a while, like technical surveillance and Sigint is is becoming the dominating intelligence, right? Compared to like, you know, giving a guy 10 grand a month for information about the Chinese military or whatever, do you think like humans kind of taking the backseat to now Sigint? Because, you know, everyone's on their phones and trying to find a way to penetrate them or, you know? What do you think?

• 46:30Speaker 04

  So I think that in terms of, you know, targeting an asset, developing that asset, validating that asset, I think there are a lot of things that all of this commercial data enables us to do,

• 46:46Speaker 04

  you know, below the threshold of risk and and before we even begin that recruitment process to understand who we're dealing with and what their value is almost no differently than, you know, a company that's trying to determine the value of a of a customer based upon who they are, what they've bought, where we can apply those same techniques. I think that human relationships will always, always be critical when you're when you're in these types of transactions.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  But I think that, you know, the the technical open source, publicly available information, commercially available information will help us target with more precision with lower risk.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  It's interesting. There was an article, we spoke about it a little bit on the episode before this one, where. Russia and Iran like have hit up kids on like a video game servers essentially giving them like a couple hundred bucks, maybe a grand to go like do some BDA or even sabotage like place bombs and stuff like that. It's interesting. Like you mentioned like the it's relatively crude, right? Like this is a crude way of doing it. It's like maybe the guys, the kid that's going to take a picture of a bomb site or plant the bomb. Like that's like a one off kind of these like a one off one use case and then the kid's fucking life is ruined. It's interesting the ways

• 48:20Speaker 03

  that different intelligence agencies are trying to get things done, right? It seems way more cost effective, cost efficient and stuff like that. So it's an interesting world. I don't have a question, but.

• 48:36Speaker 04

  That's that use cases is one of those. Look, if if you can sort of activate the gig economy through these methods, so long as that gig is doing legitimate commercial work and not something that's been stood up on behalf of, you know, if if these if these third party collection platforms and there are companies that do this, if they are able to develop situational awareness through

• 49:18Speaker 04

  either, you know, photographs or whatever, whatever the assignment is, but if they're doing that for legitimate commercial purposes and then they can sell that data to the government, it's a much safer approach as versus standing up a contract and having, you know, this contract be specific to a US government entity that that just that's where that's where, you know, people who are trying to make some make some coin or tokens or however the payment stream is, that's how they get in.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, uh, ever-evolving world, this stuff, but yeah, again, I'm not trying to plug unplugged, but I was, and I'm a cynical fucker, like, you know, I think people know that about me, that watch highs on. Um, I was very impressed by the phone, like extremely impressed by it. Uh, cause I didn't really know what to expect until we did that, uh, you know, that white glove orientation and, uh, it really opens your eyes. So like if it was incredible and I, you know, I'm really looking forward like they're gonna likely be sponsored or working with us. So I'm excited about that, uh, because it's actually a product

• 50:39Speaker 03

  that, uh, that works, you know, it's a good thing.

• 50:45Speaker 04

  So it's, you're gonna, it's gonna be a high performance. You're gonna all the, everything that you expect from a smartphone, apps that you're using will function just as you normally expect them to function. Um, but that, that disintermediating that data flow does not encroach or interfere with the functionality of the app. So, uh, as a user, you're not sacrificing or trading off anything in terms of functionality to, uh, have engineered privacy, uh, into the device.

• 51:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. Interesting too, like the sketchiest apps, not the sketchiest, but they're the ones that, that track the most or like the ones you wouldn't even think of, you know, like the, uh, State Farm app or something. And I know like people use the apps like test, uh, monitor their driving and you know, to maybe lower their rates, but they, they go at it pretty fucking, pretty aggressively, honestly.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  Or, or an app that, you know, uh, the scrapbookers use or, you know, people who are selling their art or crafts out of their garage, you know, that app, uh, begins with a P. Um, they really understand the behavior of their users.

• 52:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I could say I could totally see that. I was thinking Etsy once you said that, but I P I'm trying to think I don't can't really come up.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  Pinterest, same Etsy and Pinterest. Yep.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  But when you, when you understand what's going on and you can see it. Um, and what's even, what's even um more compelling is when you take that telemetry, which to a normal person like you and me means nothing, right? It looks like telemetry. And you dump that into, you know,

• 52:35Speaker 04

  chat GPT or Claude and, and give it an instruction like, find me some patterns that are unique or tell me about this user in a, you know, develop the pattern of life based upon this data and it just, it unravels your story big time. And if we think about it at scale, like, okay, do this over the course of a year. Um, and tell me how this person is different from everybody else. Um, that's, that's where it becomes, you know, a state sponsored approach becomes operationally significant.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Uh, one question my, like about the data sets that people buy are like, you know, uh, you know, adversarial countries buy or whoever buys, are those data sets like up till this date or is it like continuous? Like you're continuously getting the same data based on like the whoever the cohort of people that you bought. Um, is it like a subscription or you pay like a lump sum? Like, how does it work?

• 53:42Speaker 04

  You can do, you can do a big data buy, you can do a subscription. Um, it's, it's near real time based upon, you know, the processing and, and when they're doing the extraction. Um, you know, if you think about, people have talked about, you know, um, all of a sudden at, you know, 2am, my device just started firing off and, and, and processing. Um, so this is, uh, it

• 54:11Speaker 04

  the, the, the extraction, um, you know, happens on a sort of a scheduled basis. It's not pure real time, but it's near real time. Um, and

• 54:22Speaker 03

  I got you.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Up to date within easily, you know, 12 hours.

• 54:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's pretty, that's insane.

• 54:30Speaker 04

  Which if you're trying to target, you know, you're trying to whittle down who you're targeting and you go from 100,000 people who have top secret clearances in the DC area to, you know, the 50 that are doing things with their device that indicate an operational posture, like powering down your phone in the middle of the workday against the population that never does that. You are the anomaly and you've got a clearance and you're powering down and who else is powering down around the same times, et cetera, et cetera. And when your phone powers back up, all of that backfill shoots off to the various apps. So, you know,

• 55:11Speaker 04

  this is, this is how it works. And it's not that complicated.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  But it's something that, that people who are dealing in life and death, not just advertisers, but they're dealing with an adversary that's going to target them in way that is, you know, the metrics are, are far more acute. This is something we need to fix.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, you brought up a great point. Like, you know, in a city where, you know, everyone's on their phones all day. And like, there's a specific amount of folks that just shut their phones down. And that would stick out like a sore thumb and would not be hard to kind of sift through. Specifically too, if you had like, you know, large language models to it too, like, you know, I could see it being as easy as fucking pie to figure out.

• 56:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, you power down your phone, there isn't some parameter that says, you're a drug dealer, you're a spy, you're committing crimes, you know, it doesn't, but again, it is a behavioral indicator that is anomalous compared to the rest of the population that never does any of those things. Faraday bags, toddling between airplane mode when you're nowhere near an airport. And, you know, you're trying to provide some, some obfuscation to what you're doing, but all you're really doing is nominating yourself for inspection.

• 56:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I hope that like at least like off, you know, case officers, analysts, whoever, whoever's working in intel or JSOC, you know, national security professionals with a top secret clearance. I hope there's like some ways of like spoofing that too. You know what I mean? Like there's got, I'm assuming there is like for the love of God, but I could see where people, you know, don't think it's a big deal, even even somebody with a top secret clearance, right?

• 57:12Speaker 03

  It's it's a wild world we live in, man. It's like this whole second like dimension of where we live, you know?

• 57:21Speaker 04

  MySpace only wish they were around today, right?

• 57:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Hundred percent. They'd be making tons of money off selling data. Just targeting ads.

• 57:31Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Mike, anything else, man? You tell me the floor is yours.

• 57:36Speaker 04

  No, man, I think we got it. Look, there are, there are solutions out there.

• 57:43Speaker 04

  I joined the the board of unplugged because frankly, I got sick and tired of of standing in front of these people who are desperate for a solution and and and not really having anything for them. That that wasn't some fancy op phone. So this convergence of of privacy as that substrate tradecraft makes a lot of sense to me, having spent over a decade talking about this and educating this community about this. And look, we don't have the cognitive capacity to be monitoring and toggling and thinking through all, thinking

• 58:26Speaker 04

  through all of these risk surfaces layered on top of we are, you know, in a denied area, we're on the X, we're, we got people shooting at us. I'm not going to sit there and worry about my stupid device. So we need something that just is a permanent state to remove that that cognitive burden from from people who are, you know, already in a high risk situation. We don't need to add more to that. And that's, that's where I see this as a a variable in in that in that solution space.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, Mike, a pleasure dude. I want everybody to know that like if you want to know more about Mike's career, the kind of shenanigans he got up to, uh, there's, we have a long form interview with him on the Team House. Uh, I'll put the link in the description for that. Um,

• 59:23Speaker 03

  yeah, it's a, it's kind of like when you sit and think about it for a little bit, especially like a layman like myself, it's, it's kind of daunting to think about and like, it feels like an impossibility, like you can't avoid being on the phone and stuff like that. And I think we really, like the normal, like the masses, we really give up information about ourselves. We trade it off for like convenience, right? And I think if everyone's a little bit more cognizant of it, I think it would be beneficial for them. Uh, just as a whole.

• 59:56Speaker 04

  If you're in the, if you're in the operational community and you're, you're struggling and you know that you need to do something, contact me, I will help you.

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  Cool. Uh, you want me to put, I'll put your LinkedIn and stuff like that. Is there anywhere else you want people to follow you?

• 1:00:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's about it.

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  All right. So the LinkedIn, I'll put it down in the description. You can grab it there. And if you're listening on audio, down in the show notes as well. Uh, Mike, awesome. As always.

• 1:00:24Speaker 04

  Thanks, Dave. Appreciate it.

• 1:00:29Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to take a moment to tell you about the Team House Podcast Newsletter. If you go and subscribe, it's totally free and what it will do is aggregate all of our data, all of our content that we put out. Uh, the things that are on the Team House, on our geopolitics podcast, Eyes On, uh, things that I write journalistically with Sean Naylor on the high side, uh, anything else that we have going on, books we recommend, uh, upcoming guests that we have coming on the show. And also, you know, filtering in some fun stuff in there as well. Um, if you go and check it out, we send it out just once a week. We don't want to spam you guys. It's just a kind of roll up of all of our content on a weekly basis.

• 1:01:13Jack Murphy?

  You can find our newsletter at teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Again, the website for that is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Uh, so we hope to see you there. The link will be down in the description.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:10:00Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:10:11Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:10:22Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned Spinquest.com. What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a blackjack in the palm of your hand, and you won't lose your fingers. Over 1,000 games, including slots and live dealers, and $30 point packs are on sale for 10. Spinquest.com. Buy American players for American players.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:11:47Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:12:02Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:12:13Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned Spinquest.com. What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a blackjack in the palm of your hand, and you won't lose your fingers. Over 1,000 games, including slots and live dealers, and $30 coin packs are on sale for 10. Spinquest.com. Buy American players for American players.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on.

• 1:13:32Speaker 06

  Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:13:50Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table. The Food Allergy Podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:14:04Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:14:15Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 1:14:52Speaker 06

  Bresky, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack craps and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just 10 bucks.

• 1:15:05Speaker 00

  10 bucks for 30? I'm heading over to spinquest.com right now.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:15:50Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:16:05Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:16:16Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:16:27Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite slots, live blackjack, live craps with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:17:56Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:18:10Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:18:21Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:18:32Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  Hey, guys. Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over 1,000 different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:19:57Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:20:12Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:20:23Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:20:34Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite spots, live blackjack, live craps, with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:21:57Speaker 06

  She's been thinking about the sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Oler, Omalizumab. It's proven to

• 1:22:06Speaker 00

  Significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information.

• 1:22:51Speaker 00

  Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:22:57Speaker 07

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 1:23:29Speaker 06

  Gretzky, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just 10 bucks.

• 1:23:43Speaker 00

  10 bucks for 30? I'm headed over to spinquest.com right now.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.