How to Stop Being Socially Awkward (According to Science) with Behavioral Scientist Vanessa Van Edwards

Maybe this sounds familiar: you leave a party and spend the rest of the night convinced everyone was upset with you. Or you replay something you said in a meeting for days and second-guess every last word. Vanessa Van Edwards has been there. As a self-proclaimed "recovering awkward person," she’s spent two decades decoding the hidden dynamics of human interaction to make those skills teachable for introverts and extroverts alike. Vanessa is a behavioral researcher, bestselling author, and founder of Science of People. In her book, Conversation: How to Be Instantly Likeable in Any Interaction, she makes the case that social skills aren't a personality type, they're learnable. And she believes we are living in the most critical moment in history to start learning them. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why "just be yourself" is unhelpful advice + potentially cruel ➡️ The important everyday interactions technology + AI replaced ➡️ Where to stand at a party so someone always talks to you ➡️ How to have better conversations (+ why you already have the skills) ➡️ What the real antidote to awkwardness is ➡️ How to practice micro-social skills without turning people off ➡️ Why we’re all ambiverts + how to understand ambiversion ➡️ How soft skills drive major career inflection points ➡️ The concept of social fitness + the “nutrition” of your relationships In this conversation, Vanessa lays out how even the most socially anxious among us can build real connections and become more likable… even in a world that has quietly removed all the places we used to accidentally get good at being human. And the secret isn't confidence. It's something far more generous. This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + Watch A Bit of Optimism on Spotify, and Spotify Premium users can enjoy the show ad-free. + + + To pre-order Vanessa’s new book, Conversation: How to Be Instantly Likeable in Any Interaction, head to: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/conversation/ Want to learn more people skills from Vanessa? Check out The Science of People: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/ + + + Chapters Chapters 00:00:00 Social Skills in the Digital Age Crisis 00:01:47 Vanessa's Journey: The Accidental Social Skills Expert 00:05:45 Mistakes Everyone Makes Learning to Improve Social Skills 00:08:09 Where Did Our Places to Practice Being Human Go? 00:11:17 Where to Stand at a Party When You Don't Know Anyone 00:14:17 The Ambivert Reality: Social Fitness and Friendship Nutrition 00:18:07 The Discomfort Problem: Why Young People Avoid Rather Than Adapt 00:21:33 Put the Shoes in the Box: The Art of Knowing When to Stop 00:34:54 Intention Matches Action: Defining Authenticity 00:46:56 The Power of Being Seen: How Love Changed Everything 00:49:51 The Ultimate Social Skill: Helping Others Feel Normal 00:42:20 Micro-Social Skills: Finding the Parts of Yourself You Like + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  We don't call anybody up and ask for help. You don't go to your neighbor. You don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. We're having social struggles, social awkwardness, more than we used to because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Yes, I think we are in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

• 0:20Simon Sinek?

  That's a scary thought.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  It's terrifying.

• 0:23Simon Sinek?

  We are obsessed with finding the right words, saying just the right thing so we can get the job, get the girl, make a good impression. Sometimes we labor over our texts. Some of us can even stress for days worried if we said the right thing or not. And now with AI, we're all learning to find just the perfect words exactly when we need them. But there's a problem. Making human connections takes more than words. It also includes things like body language, nonverbal communication. And because we communicate digitally so often, we aren't practicing those skills like we used to. We aren't practicing being human. That's why I invited Vanessa Van Edwards onto the show.

• 1:06Simon Sinek?

  She's a self-described recovering awkward person who spent 20 years studying the science of body language and what actually makes people click. In her book, Conversation: How to Be Instantly Likeable in Any Interaction, she makes the case that we can still learn the social skills we need at any age. Vanessa has discovered that all that stress and inside talk that goes on when we're struggling, it all goes away the second we decide to be more generous. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe for more. This is a bit of optimism.

• 1:47Simon Sinek?

  I always love people's journeys, how they get started into what they do. And you have, I mean, I know you call yourself a recovering awkward person. I think it reveals a lot about our us, the careers that we find ourselves on. How did you get into what you do now?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  By accident.

• 2:03Simon Sinek?

  Always the best stories.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Always. So in 2007, this this new website called YouTube started. And I was like, you know, this is kind of fun. And back then YouTube was a crazy place. YouTube was people unboxing things and and makeup.

• 2:18Simon Sinek?

  And scratching on microphones.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  I don't even know that exists then. I don't even know that exists then.

• 2:23Simon Sinek?

  That came later.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  And I was like, you know, maybe I could post on this thing called YouTube and I could share. I was very, very awkward. And at the time, I was reading a lot of research on interpersonal intelligence, social skills, body language. And I was like, why is no one talking about this research? So I would open up my my my phone, you know, and I would start recording tips for other awkward people. In my mind, there were maybe fifteen of us. You know, I was like, this is for the other fifteen awkward people who have just finished college and are trying to interview and were afraid of everyone. I also, my awkwardness is I think everyone's angry at me all the time. That's a a brand of awkwardness that I have. Like, I'm so happy you're smiling, because otherwise I think you are angry at me. Okay, great.

• 3:06Simon Sinek?

  Not angry.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  So I actually learned in the research that a certain kind of neuroticism misinterprets neutral faces as negative. And so I would share things like that. Hey, if you think everyone's angry at you, you might be misinterpreting. I wanted to say this is what an angry face looks like. And those little tips were how I got through the day, how I stopped social overthinking. Then all my videos started getting a hundred views, two hundred views, a thousand views. And then what happened was I started to read research and then do experiments on myself. So I would say, hey, this research experiment said that men love the smell of food on a woman.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Great, let's try it. So I got popcorn bags and I rubbed them on my forearms and I'd go to a party and I'd see if men said I smelled good. Right? The weirdest experiments ever. I would just try them. And that worked, by the way.

• 3:56Simon Sinek?

  Which which food did men respond best to?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Pop popcorn bag.

• 4:00Simon Sinek?

  Not barbecue?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  No, no, I didn't try that one. Ribs. I was just like, I like put a rib in my purse. That might have worked.

• 4:04Simon Sinek?

  That would have been good.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  That might have worked. That might have worked. Vanilla also worked really well. So I started posting out these silly social experiments and my first video went viral. And it completely changed everything. That happened in 2010. And I started to get approached by people to create courses. And courses weren't really a thing back then. And also to corporate trainings on soft skills. Specifically, there were companies who are hiring brilliant people, engineers, new managers, who were very technically brilliant, but didn't have social skills. And so they said, we think that you could speak to that group. So I started to create presentations, teaching soft skills in a mathematical way, teaching soft skills with a science backing, so that really brilliant, technically brilliant folks could actually learn soft skills like they learned math or science.

• 4:50Simon Sinek?

  I believe all these things are learnable.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:52Simon Sinek?

  Obviously.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:53Simon Sinek?

  But as you know, all of these things, when you are learning them, you are really in your head about them.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:00Simon Sinek?

  You know, which makes it difficult because people don't know that they're learning. It's like a bicycle. At some point, you stop saying pedal, pedal, pedal, and you just start riding. For somebody who is awkward, for somebody who is, was an engineer and now has found themselves in a leadership position where now you have to have those human skills, otherwise you're not going to survive, or at least not do well. How do you ensure that they stick with it till they get to the point where that it clicks? Because it is awkward overcoming awkwardness.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:28Simon Sinek?

  You're stuck in your head.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Overthinking.

• 5:30Simon Sinek?

  Overthinking.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:31Simon Sinek?

  You've learned all the skills you've been teaching, and you've learned about moving your hands, tone of voice, and all of these things. But when you're talking to somebody, you're just thinking like, move your hands, move your hands.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  More hand gestures.

• 5:42Simon Sinek?

  More hand gestures.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 5:43Simon Sinek?

  Be interesting, be interesting, you know?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so here's the mistake that people make with this, is they start with the skill or the person they're most nervous with. So oftentimes, they've read how to influence people, and they're like, okay, I'm going to go into my boss's office. Wrong, we've already made a mistake. Why would you start a brand new social skill? You're just trying for the first time with the person who makes you the most nervous. No, so wrong person first. Oh, and I'm going to go in and I'm going to say their name a bunch. So then they're like, good morning, Simon. Simon, how did you like the task last week, Simon? Simon, wasn't it great? And it's like, and then you get the negative feedback. The boss is like, what is going on? Why are you using my name so much? And they're like, I'm never doing anything again.

• 6:21Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  I say is no, we're gonna start really small. I like micro social skills. Micro social skills are the social skills that you're already good at, that you didn't actually realize was a skill that you were naturally good at. So for example, telling a story is a micro social skill. And there are some awkward people who are exceptional at telling very good, real stories, embarrassing moments, case studies with a client. So I would say, okay, let's start with the micro skill that you're very good at. That could be explaining something technical. That could be a story. That could be even quiet power, like listening really, really well. That could be a nonverbal thing. That could be your really, really warm, nonverbally. You're good at nodding, you're good at eye contact. So first is identify what you're already good at, because you need that courage to get you through the discomfort.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Right? So I say, okay, let's start with the micro skill. And there's like, we have a list of like 70 of them. Okay, start with the micro skill. Then, who are the people who make you feel like your best self at work? Who are the people already in your job where you're not overthinking? Let's try a little new micro skill that you might be good at with them. So it's like, we're using soft skills as an experiment, and we're starting with the good. Because the only way to get through it, to get through the cortisol, to get through the adrenaline of like your heart pounding when you're trying something new, is to fall back on the micro skill that you're good at. I also think the same thing in conversation. So there are topics that some of us are very good at discussing, right? Like, you're very good at discussing certain topics. But I'm sure if I were to ask you about something that you knew nothing about, you'd be like, tell me more. And then you'd be out of your depth.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  We need to have backpocket topics that we are just like so fired up about. Maybe we hit flow when we're talking about it, maybe we're passionate about it. So if you're in conversation by accident with your boss or the client, you can bring up that thing you're very good at. And then you're like, oh yeah, here's my rhythm. And then we can try the new stuff.

• 8:08Simon Sinek?

  As if social media and our phones haven't like done enough damage to us as social animals. This is another one of those where, you know, I mean, I can just tell you from my career, as I'm listening to you, I used to try things out at dinner parties. I used to try things out sitting on the plane, talking to the person next to me.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:26Simon Sinek?

  When I first learned my why and I was practicing, how do I say it to people?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:29Simon Sinek?

  And I got it wrong 100 times. You know, People think I'm this expert because I'm just naturally good at it. No, I practice and practice and practice and practice. But I practice in these very safe environments where the stakes, the stakes were zero.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 8:40Simon Sinek?

  You know, the person next to me on the plane thinks I'm an idiot, whatever. But those places are gone now.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 8:44Simon Sinek?

  Those places are gone.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Unless you create casual collisions.

• 8:48Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Right? We've gotten rid of a lot of those casual interactions. And even before, you could kind of practice your first impression when you went out to grab groceries. You could practice your first impression when you went to grab something. But now, if I need sugar, I'm not going to a neighbor. I'm ordering it on an app. If I need to grab some dinner, I'm ordering it on app. I'm not even running into a store and getting something. If I need to learn something, I'm looking it up on YouTube as opposed to calling a friend. I don't know if you remember this, but like dating ourselves. Remember when you didn't know something, you had to call someone who knew?

• 9:16Simon Sinek?

  Never had that experience.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  You never didn't know anything, or you didn't know who to call?

• 9:21Simon Sinek?

  Go on.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Go on. Yeah, yeah. Like, I remember that, of having to call someone and be like, how do you do X?

• 9:28Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And they would have to walk you through it on the phone.

• 9:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Those were ways to practice, I don't know something.

• 9:33Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Saying I don't know is a, is a skill, right? Being able to say it and ask for help. And so I think that we have to recreate those to practice.

• 9:41Simon Sinek?

  It's nice to call someone who knows something, because you're right, we all go to YouTube and like, or now AI.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:48Simon Sinek?

  Teach me how to or show me how to.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I, I call my mom less. Like, recently, since AI started.

• 9:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  I call my mom less because now, I used to call my mom when I had a question about something.

• 9:59Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  And now, I don't want to bother her, so I ask AI. And that worries me.

• 10:05Simon Sinek?

  This is so interesting. The other thing, I mean, I'm, I'm fascinated by this awkward stuff because I still think I'm awkward. So I'm not, I don't think I've recovered.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  In what way?

• 10:13Simon Sinek?

  Oh, I'm socially awkward.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Big groups, small groups, all?

• 10:17Simon Sinek?

  I hate big groups.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:18Simon Sinek?

  Can't stand them.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:19Simon Sinek?

  If it's noisy, I'm out.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 10:21Simon Sinek?

  But I've also gotten comfortable being awkward.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Awkward.

• 10:25Simon Sinek?

  And so, though I've learned some techniques to compensate being a weirdo nerdy kid, I've also just gotten comfortable with it. And my ex-girlfriend used to make fun of me because we'd go to a party, like at someone's house.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:38Simon Sinek?

  And there's like, three or four people over here having a conversation, three or four. People over there having a conversation, two people over there having a conversation. And I never knew how to interrupt a conversation. I would like show up and I'd stand there awkwardly. And no one would acknowledge that I was standing there and I sort of like just slink away.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Horrible.

• 10:53Simon Sinek?

  And she would make so much fun of me because I would just be standing by myself in the middle of the, you know, the garden. Just sipping my drink in all these conversations and I'm just, I'm just by myself in the middle. But I'm also, you know, I'm the anthropologist. So it's not that I'm just like staring off into the clouds in my own world. I'm actually taking the world in and watching everybody. And I enjoy watching people get to know each other, but I am by myself.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yes. By the way, can I give you some tips for your party? Okay, your next party. Okay. The worst place to stand at a party is right near the entrance where people are putting away their coats or just getting off their shoes. They cannot make deep conversation because they're needing to do their things, right? Get their drink, get their food, go to the bathroom. So never stand, I call that like the entry zone, like never stand there. I also think a big mistake is stand near the food. A lot of people stand near the food. The problem is, is when people are near the food, they're focusing on their food. And also you're going to have a conversation mid bite, which never works well if you want to sit down. So never stand there. My favorite place to stand is right as people exit the bar. So wherever the drinks are set up, it's that moment where someone turns around and faces the room with drink in hand. That you are a social savior. They have just gotten their drink. They're turning around from just filling their drink with ice.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  If you are standing right there, you have a very easy opener. So what brings you here? How's the drink? Is the wine good? That moment is awkward for everyone. It doesn't matter how extroverted you are. If you are in a room where you don't know who you're going to talk to next and you just had your filled drink. Let me tell you, there's panic. Someone might not look panicked, but they're like with their drink and they're like,

• 12:23Speaker 01

  who, who, who, who, who? Let it be you. So that's my favorite place to stand, right as people exit the bar. Second choice, let's say everyone's in groups. Are you, are you like, I don't know if I could do it?

• 12:32Simon Sinek?

  I'm, you're assuming that I want anybody to talk to me.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's, well, that, that, this is also a question I have.

• 12:37Simon Sinek?

  I'm standing by, I'm totally standing by the coats.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Okay. No, not by the coats. Okay. The other place which you might like, which you might like is, do you know where I was standing when I got here? By your art.

• 12:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Because I love art and I love books. So buy someone's art or buy someone's bookcase. Because one, I'm always fascinated by the art and books people have in their house. Like I can learn about them. So no matter what, even if no one talks to me, I'm a happy camper. Cause I'm looking at that art, I'm looking at who did it, I'm thinking about it. Or the books, I'm like, ooh, what, what are they reading right now?

• 13:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And sometimes you actually attract the right person. There are people who are also searching for the person, they've just come in and if they see you in your own mind, totally happy by yourself, they might come over and be like, oh, you know, what is this person reading? Or wow, that's a beautiful painting. So that's a good way to do it. The last option, which I, I want you to try, if you're willing, if you're brave enough, never walk up to a group and just stand there. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. And people often are like, what is this person doing here? Yeah. So what you want to do is wait for a group to be in a moment of laughter or a moment of ah. Then you walk up, you touch someone lightly on the arm and you say, you look like you're having a great time. May I join?

• 13:49Speaker 01

  That moment of goodness that's happening in that group, there's something magical happening in that group. They're laughing at something, they're having a ha moment. That is their peak openness moment. And if you walk in and you ask for help, social help, you are going to tug on a part of their heart string. It's like, oh, of course you can join, come. You know, we were just talking about how her dog just, you know, did this thing in her couch. It was so funny, let me tell you. So you look like you're having so much fun. May I join?

• 14:17Simon Sinek?

  Are we living in a time where we shouldn't be having this conversation? You know, as social animals, you, you know, some more, some less, some better, some worse, but you bumble and fumble through life. And you learn a lot of these skills. You were saying, because we don't call anybody up and ask for help. You don't go to your neighbor, you don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. And if you have kids, you're not sending them to the neighbor to go get the sugar. You're not, and so I, I was talking to a family, they have a 14 year old who's afraid to answer the door. Because there's a, might be a person there. These are things that whether you wanted to or not, you had to learn them because that was the only way.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:52Simon Sinek?

  To get these things.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:53Simon Sinek?

  So are we living in a time where though we could be helping people learn these things in the past, everything's exaggerated, like we're, like we're having social struggles, social awkwardness more than we used to. Because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I think. We are in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

• 15:15Simon Sinek?

  That's a scary thought.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  It's terrifying.

• 15:17Simon Sinek?

  A friend of mine talks about this in terms of dating as well. She, she, she makes the connection to entrepreneurship where when you're young, you learn the discomfort of asking someone out, getting accepted, getting rejected, asking someone out, learning how to say no, learning how to say yes, no, but I mean yes, but I mean yes, but I mean no. And there's a repetition that goes with it because if you, otherwise you'll never go out. And whether you like it or not, you learn it. And now you don't have to learn it.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  You don't have to learn it.

• 15:46Simon Sinek?

  Swipe right, you never know that you've been rejected. So you don't have the awkwardness of rejection, which by the way, really important to learn.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:53Simon Sinek?

  Especially later in life, things are not going to go exactly according to plan. And having the ability to like fall over and get back up is, is a learned skill.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  We don't talk enough about social grit.

• 16:04Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  And social resilience. We talk about grit and resilience mentally in terms of working through something. But social resilience, having someone reject you, or worse, I actually think ambivalence is worse than rejection.

• 16:16Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Ambivalence is very confusing for awkward folks. Ambivalence is very hard at work, right? A lot of my folks, like I'm doing a corporate training and they'll say to me, I don't know if my boss likes me and I can't live with that fact.

• 16:28Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, because you can deal with bad news.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  I can deal with a toxic coworker.

• 16:31Simon Sinek?

  I can lead, yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  I can deal with a boss I hate.

• 16:33Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  But I, I don't know my boss.

• 16:35Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  And I don't know if I like them. And also I don't know if they like me.

• 16:39Simon Sinek?

  Or sometimes we don't like them because we've misinterpreted it.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 16:42Simon Sinek?

  We have a narrative, they don't like us.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:43Simon Sinek?

  So now I don't like them.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  And then, and what do we want to do? Avoid anything that causes us any kind of confusion. Ambivalence and confusion is actually a much harder to deal with socially than toxicity. So if someone is having confusing social interactions, especially at work, productivity goes down, engagement goes down, I call it friction, right? Like when I talk to companies where they're very focused, you know, bless them on technology and tasks and productivity. And I love all those things. But if you don't focus on your social connectedness at work, on the social skills of your organization, you are going to have so much friction that you're not going to get things done. Social friction happens when you have someone on the team who goes, I need help with this task. I don't know who to ask. I'll try AI. Hmm, AI doesn't know.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I could ask that colleague, but I don't really know that colleague. I never reach out to them. I'm afraid I'm just going to not ask. And so all this friction of I'm not going to communicate, I'm going to miscommunicate. I don't know if they like me. We're in a team meeting, but I feel very uncomfortable. So I'm going to under present my idea or worse, external communication. You go to meet with a client and because you're so socially awkward, you do the idea poor. Right. You don't present the idea in a beautiful way or you miss the mark because you're so wrapped up in your own head about your body language and your, how you're coming across. You can't even present it. That's missed business. I think the same thing is happening socially where if we're not exercising social muscles, they will atrophy. I've been doing this for 20 years. This is the first time where I have students of five generations.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Right. I have 12 year old students and I have 90 year old students who are taking my classes. Never before have I had that. What I have learned is that oftentimes millennials, extras, boomers. They will be like, I'm uncomfortable. I'm awkward, but I'm going to try it and I'll try to figure out how to do it. Either I'd like it or I don't. My younger students are like, I'm going to craft my life and my career in a way where I don't have to try it.

• 18:36Simon Sinek?

  Avoid discomfort.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Right. And so they'll just say, I'm really socially awkward and so I, I have to work from home. I'm really socially awkward, so I'm going to make sure that I do all my socializing via WhatsApp or via apps. And they limit the number of friction.

• 18:53Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  At interactions they're having and it's very hard to practice social skills if you're not socializing.

• 18:58Simon Sinek?

  It's something that concerns me, which is the discomfort with being uncomfortable.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:02Simon Sinek?

  And being uncomfortable is a fact of life. It's also a normal social thing. There's many things that factor into discomfort. And to your point, which is I don't, you know, I'm socially awkward, so I'm just going to, I have to work from home. And I prefer to work from home.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  I have to.

• 19:18Simon Sinek?

  I have to work from home or even just like if something doesn't go well at work or you get in trouble, you know? And we're not talking about toxicity here.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 19:26Simon Sinek?

  Like very, there are very few sort of truly, truly toxic workplaces where it's abusive and you're getting yelled at and demeaned.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  And that you should be out of.

• 19:33Simon Sinek?

  And you should be out of there in two seconds and that's not common.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  No, it's confusion.

• 19:37Simon Sinek?

  The term toxic is thrown about a little too loosely. That's really describing uncomfortable. You know, it's a toxic workplace. I'm like, you mean you got in trouble for screwing something up? You know? Maybe your leader does or doesn't have the skills.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:50Simon Sinek?

  And maybe they bumbled and fumbled it. But it's just uncomfortable.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:54Simon Sinek?

  I think one of the greatest competitive advantages anyone can have in a workplace is is knowing how to be okay being uncomfortable. To your point, you know, sales calls that go badly, it's uncomfortable. Being the one who makes it go badly, really uncomfortable. Being on the receiving end of uncomfortable news, being the one who's giving the uncomfortable news, you know? And I've seen organizations that are dysfunctionally passive aggressive.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:19Simon Sinek?

  Because nobody wants to be the person who gives

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:23Simon Sinek?

  feedback.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:24Simon Sinek?

  And you see people have these meh careers because they just keep getting moved around because no one will tell them that they suck at something because they're too afraid of making them uncomfortable.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Meh is the is the way. And that is what we're facing is it's not toxicity, it's flatlining.

• 20:39Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  And I think that with the way that I like to think about this is that having the right social interactions actually give you opportunity for growth. I had a very weird career, but every inflection point in my entire career has come from a relationship, not a skill.

• 20:56Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Not a course.

• 20:58Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Every single inflection point was somebody reached out and said, I have an idea or do you want to work with this thing on something? Or an editor coming backstage and saying, I want to publish your book. All of those things happened because of a relationship. And as a competent science lover, that drives me crazy. I would rather just sit at home and work harder.

• 21:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And I think that that's what makes me so sad is all of our students are very smart, very hardworking, and they're hoping they can do it without the socializing.

• 21:28Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  But I think it's incredibly hard to be able to have not meh if you don't do that.

• 21:32Simon Sinek?

  There's so many things popping through my head. I love sitting down with you because you are affirming and reinforcing a lot of things that I stumbled on by accident in my career. So I'll give you an example. I was a young entrepreneur and I would

• 21:48Simon Sinek?

  I'd come, somebody fortunately gave me some feedback like, you're coming on too strong, you know, and it's mainly discomfort and it's mainly insecurity and it's mainly like, I gotta close every deal with everybody I meet immediately, otherwise it's never gonna happen, you know, and so too much, right?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:02Simon Sinek?

  And so I, I came up with a trick for myself. I would only give someone my business card if they asked.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Ooh, love it.

• 22:10Simon Sinek?

  That was my rule. If they didn't ask, and I was sitting there, something going, I wanna give it so badly. So I had to learn to create value, be charming, be nice, to the point where they go, do you have a card?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 22:22Simon Sinek?

  And now it drives me nuts when somebody walks up and goes, hey, nice to meet you. Here's my card. I'm like, didn't ask for it.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  You didn't earn that.

• 22:27Simon Sinek?

  Didn't earn it.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 22:28Simon Sinek?

  And.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  PSA, don't, don't do that to Simon.

• 22:31Simon Sinek?

  But, but, but it, but it really helped me hone a skill.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:35Simon Sinek?

  But it wasn't because I was like, I'm gonna be charming. That wasn't the goal.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:38Simon Sinek?

  The goal was, how do I create an environment where they'll ask me for my business card? Or when I would have a first time client meeting, my goal was not to close the deal. My goal was create an environment in which they will say yes to a second meeting.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Or ask you for one.

• 22:56Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, either one.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Did you have an inflection point in your career, like the biggest inflection point, if there was one, and was it relationship based?

• 23:06Simon Sinek?

  I don't know, is the answer. I can't, there's nothing that stands out that I can remember, but I just know that I, I'm self-aware enough that if something's not working, and I'm aware enough to know that I'm the only common factor.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:22Simon Sinek?

  So if this thing's not working, I could blame everybody else. It's probably true, but on the rare exception that it might be me, let's go with that one. So yeah, no, no, I, I was so like, for example, if I'm struggling to close business, then it's gotta be me.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:38Simon Sinek?

  But the thing is, it wasn't the quality of my PowerPoint, it wasn't the quality of my email, it was the quality of the relationships that I could create and the conversations that I could have.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:45Simon Sinek?

  So it was still relationship based.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  I think tricks for yourself work really well. In fact, this is another micro skill is like, how do you get through the thing or the interaction? You reminded me of a trick that I used to do for myself that really helped is I also got feedback that talking to me, that my conversations were like small talk. It was too much about fluff, wasn't about actual substance. And I was like, that's because I'm afraid to talk about substance. And so a trick that I gave myself is I want to pretend that I'm about to interview this person on stage and I have to introduce them. My social anxiety comes when I'm like aimless, like when I don't have a purpose in conversation. Cause then we default to like, what's the weather where you are? What's the weather where I am? So I was like, if I'm pretending that I'm about to walk on stage and introduce this person, the nature of my questions change because one, I'm listening very deeply.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  I'm listening to remember and that helped. But second, I was like, I need to find out the treasure about this person. I need to figure out something about this person that's interesting enough that I could go share with other people. And that completely changed the nature of my conversations and made them more enjoyable. I think I was awkward because I was having bad conversations, but that was my fault. As you said, I was the common denominator there. And so the other thing that I like to teach students is you're in control of the type of social interactions you want to have. Right? Like if you go in with a certain intention, you can create that intention, you just have to know how to do it. Like the back door into confidence, like the back door is going in with very specific blueprints of how you want to interact. Right? Like you have a basic blueprint of how you want a house to look. Every house is a little bit different, maybe you can decorate differently, but you want to know your basic direction of where you're going in that house.

• 25:18Simon Sinek?

  And then the stuff you're teaching are some of those skills to get there, which are learnable and practicable.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  If you're willing to be uncomfortable.

• 25:24Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah. If you're willing to be uncomfortable. And I love Susan Cain's definition of introversion versus extroversion, which is it's not about social awkwardness or friendliness, it's about energy.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:36Simon Sinek?

  Which is the introvert wakes up with five coins in the morning and every social interaction, they spend a coin and by the end of the day, they're depleted. The extrovert wakes up in the morning with no coins, that every social interaction, they get a coin and by the end of the day, they feel rich. And the reason I think that's important is because I know socially awkward and socially functional extroverts.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yes, so do I.

• 25:55Simon Sinek?

  I also only know socially awkward and socially functional.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Introverts, absolutely.

• 25:58Simon Sinek?

  So that I can be friendly and charming and outgoing

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:02Simon Sinek?

  doesn't mean that I'm an extrovert.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean you're not spending coins.

• 26:05Simon Sinek?

  It doesn't mean that I'm like, oh, I can do it, but I am shattered at the end.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I also think that we have to add a layer to that and that that definition is foundational, that most of us are ambiverts.

• 26:18Simon Sinek?

  Yes, there's very small percentages of the of the population that are truly introverted and truly extroverted.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  And that definition for them isn't enough, meaning they'll go, well, okay, I have five coins at the beginning of my day, but some people take a lot and some people give me a lot. And so the nuance, I think, conversation we can have is if you think of it like a social battery, is who charges you? Like, who's letting you plug in?

• 26:44Simon Sinek?

  That's nice.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  And who's draining you? Right? Like, what's the app that drains you?

• 26:47Simon Sinek?

  And it's definitely with strangers too, right? There are some strangers that are exhausting and there are some strangers that I'm like, I want to spend more time with you.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:53Simon Sinek?

  That are engaging and fun and probably took your class and do everything that you suggest, which is why they're so fun and engaging.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Are you usually giving coins or taking coins?

• 27:01Simon Sinek?

  I have ADHD, which adrenaline is my best friend because I become lucid and I become calm when adrenaline pumps, which is one of the reasons I'm good on stage is because A, I don't really have to talk to anybody.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  No, I love being on stage. It's so lonely up there, but in a good way.

• 27:14Simon Sinek?

  And and I have the adrenaline pumping. So when I come off stage, I'm the friendliest, most charming, most incredible, fun, you know.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 27:22Simon Sinek?

  You know.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  I write all my best content right after I left stage.

• 27:24Simon Sinek?

  And everybody says to me, do you want a break before the next thing? I'm like, no, no, no, no. If I take a break, I'll crash.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:30Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no. Keep me going. I'll crash at the end of the day. So as long as the adrenaline is pumping, I'm golden. Sleep for me is also a big deal.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:37Simon Sinek?

  If I don't get enough sleep, I'm not fun. I'm not inquisitive. I'm not curious.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  I think we should talk about this more.

• 27:44Simon Sinek?

  My ambiversion, the problem with my ambiversion, I agree. I think I think everyone's an ambivert.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:49Simon Sinek?

  To say I'm an introvert, it's actually, it's actually.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  I think everyone's an ambivert.

• 27:52Simon Sinek?

  It's actually silly.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  I think so, too.

• 27:53Simon Sinek?

  You know, everyone's an ambivert and a lot of it is circumstantial to what you said.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  But that's good. Like, I think we should be talking about this like we talk about our nutrition. I look, I love self-care and fitness movements and we talk about fitness and nutrition a lot. We should be talking about our social fitness. We should be talking about friendship nutrition. There are meat friends, brisket friends, who give you so much protein. They are just so good. We should know who those people are in our lives. We should know who those colleagues are in our lives. And then there are like cotton candy friends, you know, those friends that feel good, but they don't fill you up. Like they give you a lot of that chemical burst of sugar, but it'll root in your teeth, right? If you do it for too long.

• 28:29Simon Sinek?

  But you can have them for a treat.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  You can have them for a treat. So I think like we talk a lot about our nutrition and what we're putting in our bodies, what we're doing to our bodies. We should be thinking the same way about our socializing.

• 28:39Simon Sinek?

  I like that.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Who, who fills you? What fills you? Where fills you? And when fills you?

• 28:47Simon Sinek?

  And who do you fill?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Oh, and there you go.

• 28:49Simon Sinek?

  I think you have to know what food group you are.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And are you willing to give it?

• 28:54Simon Sinek?

  And because, you know, and I can, again, in the spirit of ambiversion, I can be multiple food groups depending on who I'm with.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  And that can be dangerous. I have a friend who is dating and I said, how's it going? And she said, you know, I can't tell on a date if I'm having fun or if I'm fun. And I realized that's a really interesting thing that some extroverts have this, or I would say ambivert's leaning extrovert, where they are so socially adept and so fun. A lot of leaders have this that are very charismatic. You know, those leaders that we work with that are very charismatic? Man, they light up a room. They have trouble knowing the difference between are they creating all that charisma in the room? And they're kind of giving it? Or are they actually having a good time and having connections?

• 29:35Simon Sinek?

  So I'll tell you, I am so glad I got this feedback. I knew I was socially awkward. And because I knew I was so afraid of not being fun and not being engaging, I would jack up with caffeine before I would go on dates.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Okay, that's not great.

• 29:49Simon Sinek?

  I was great.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Fun, fun for them.

• 29:52Simon Sinek?

  And I was so fun.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:55Simon Sinek?

  But that was the problem.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  That was the problem.

• 29:57Simon Sinek?

  Which is I was the fun.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 29:59Simon Sinek?

  And I went on a date and I, and it was fun. And she was laughing and I was laughing and it was fun. It was fun.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:04Simon Sinek?

  And at the end of the day, I said to her, I'm like, I had so much fun. I'd love to go out with you again.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:08Simon Sinek?

  And she said to me on the date, she goes, Simon, I had a blast, but I do not want to go out with you again. I went, what? She goes, too much, too much. Like you're great, you're fun, but too much. And

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Did it hurt?

• 30:22Simon Sinek?

  I know, I said thank you to her.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:23Simon Sinek?

  I mean, yeah, of course it hurts.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:24Simon Sinek?

  But I was so grateful and I wish I got the feedback, you know, years before.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:29Simon Sinek?

  Like objectively, I was fun.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:31Simon Sinek?

  But I was the only one being fun because I didn't leave any space for anybody else to be fun.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:35Simon Sinek?

  And I think we do that in sales calls too. I think people show up to like do the presentation. I mean, you know this data better than I do, which is the, I, I, the average, uh, bad sales call.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 30:46Simon Sinek?

  A salesperson will ask on average, something like seven question and the average good sales call. A salesperson will ask on average thirty two questions or something like that.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 30:53Simon Sinek?

  You know? And it's like, let somebody else talk.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Okay, but listen, I have.

• 30:58Simon Sinek?

  Now you.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Wait a minute. No, no, no, no, I have nuance, I have nuance here. Okay, so we're given this advice, right? I've asked a lot of questions. Okay, now a lot of students will come to me after they've gotten some of this advice and they're like, it went really wrong. And I'm like, okay, let's look at the nuance here. I don't love that study. Here's why.

• 31:18Simon Sinek?

  The question study?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yep, I don't love it because, look, I love asking more questions, that's great. But here is the problem. I think there are two types of people in the world.

• 31:26Simon Sinek?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  That you have people who love entertaining and they want you to ask all the questions. They could tell their favorite stories, they're great charmers, they're great storytelling. They want the ball a lot in conversation. And then there are people, and they're often VIPs typically, who do not like to be asked questions. Like me, for example, I do not like being asked a lot of questions. I want to listen to your stories. So I want to be entertained. And so what happens is if you go into interaction with someone and you just give them the question approach. One, it can be like an interrogation and that's very inauthentic. Especially if you're not really interested in the answers. And two, if you have someone who is a little bit more on the introverted side of that Amber version

• 32:04Speaker 01

  and they're very intensely private, they will feel very pushed and you'll begin to spike their cortisol and spike their adrenaline. Like I'm a, even though I'm on social media, I'm a very private person. I'm adept at avoiding any personal questions, very adept at it because I don't want to talk about anything personal. And so if, when I'm in a situation where someone's asking for my life story, I'm like, I don't know you yet. So then we have to be very careful with the way that we ask questions. Our intention, is it authentic or are we just trying to be charismatic? And two, do they like that?

• 32:33Simon Sinek?

  I think, I think this is the, a perfect summary of everything we're talking about here, which is it's about authenticity.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 32:38Simon Sinek?

  And we confuse the intention with the instruction. And it goes back to my business card thing, which is my goal wasn't to be more charming. My goal was to create conditions in which they would ask me for my business card. Right. But if I simply said, I'd be more charming, I'd do all the tricks.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:53Simon Sinek?

  And it wouldn't be authentic.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:54Simon Sinek?

  And I think you're right. I don't have a problem per se with the study about the seven versus the thirty something questions for the salesperson, but we're confusing the intention, which is curiosity. It has nothing to do with how many questions you ask.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:06Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Like thirty two questions, check.

• 33:08Simon Sinek?

  Exactly. It has nothing to, you could ask three incredibly good questions and you're golden.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:13Simon Sinek?

  And it's not about the questions, it's about the curiosity. And on average, people who are more curious are probably more likely to ask more questions.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:20Simon Sinek?

  But it's the curiosity, not the questions. You have to know why you're doing all of these things, not just, not just do the things. Cause you can teach the checklist.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:29Simon Sinek?

  And it doesn't make somebody.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  And then this, and then this.

• 33:31Simon Sinek?

  It doesn't make somebody interesting or engaging. And then it's, it's, it's, it becomes actually manipulative.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Right. So it's intention, curious. And the second piece that I think we always forget is decoding their cues. If you've asked a very well intentioned, authentic question and you see fear, so the whites of their eyes flicker at you, they immediately lean back and maybe they do a blocking behavior or they begin to self soothe, something about your question just made them uncomfortable. The last thing I want to do for someone else in conversations, make them uncomfortable, because that's how I often feel. I don't want to give that to someone else. So if you read their cues and you're like, oh, whoa, I just saw a little cluster of fear, discomfort, a little blocking, you can take the ball back and be like, oh, you know, for example, here's my story or, you know, gosh, that was too, too much, too fast. Let's try again. You can actually.

• 34:19Simon Sinek?

  You can try, you can get a do over.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you can respect someone enough to say, I want to connect with you so much that I want to do it at your pace. I have the intention to get to know you. I have the intention to be curious, but I want to do it at a pace that you're comfortable with. That I think is real connection. And we forget that last reading piece. And that's why you have people who say, you know, I tried asking the five questions and they didn't work with my, and I'm like, well, what did their face do? What did their body do? Did they, did they use vocal fry? What was going on for them? Interaction is two way.

• 34:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  You could only learn so many things one way.

• 34:52Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. How do you define authenticity?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Intention matches action. Intention matches action. Like what you want matches what you're doing and matches what you're saying and matching was what you're asking. I think it's inauthentic if someone's like, I'm gonna get this business from them, but I'm gonna act like they're my friend. Intention does not match action. You wanted to add value. Your business card trick is, I would call that wanting to add value to this person so much so, they want to connect more. I love that approach to interaction. Your intention was matching what you were trying to do. I think what happens a lot of the time is people very well meaning, and this I see this all the time in corporate, is someone's intention is to be respected, is to not be underestimated,

• 35:42Speaker 01

  is to be taken seriously. That's a lot of folks who come to me feel like they've been underestimated, overlooked, and interrupted. So their intention is good, and then they try to learn these tricks to be taken seriously. And so they lower their voice like Elizabeth Holmes, and then they act like they're faking it till they make it. I think that if your action feels fake and manipulative, it's going to come across and it's not going to match your intention. And that's where people get into trouble.

• 36:07Simon Sinek?

  Also, it's selfish.

• 36:10Simon Sinek?

  You know, which is, I'm gonna do all these things so that people like me more.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah.

• 36:14Simon Sinek?

  Versus, I'm gonna offer value.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Value, there you go.

• 36:17Simon Sinek?

  I'm gonna do something for you.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:18Simon Sinek?

  And my, my metric of that I've done something for you is, you'll say yes to a meeting, you'll ask me for a business card, or you'll give me your business.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:28Simon Sinek?

  You know, all of these things are metrics and proof of perception of value.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  I like it, because we talked, I was talking about social fitness. What if we, I mean, I'm just thinking out loud, but like, what if you thought about social metrics, right? Like, what means that your intention's matching your action is like, people are wanting to spend time with you, people feel like you're being helpful to them. People say to you, wow, I've loved spending time with you. Those are all the metrics that you're going for.

• 36:50Simon Sinek?

  I mean, look, you and I know it from being in the world, right? Which is, if you're an entrepreneur or a salesperson, or you do anything that has some sort of Collection metric, whether it's money or followers or whatnot, you know, which is you can manipulate people and trick people and get people to click or buy or any of these things, but the problem is the metric, right? Which is if you're driven by the metric.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:11Simon Sinek?

  Then you will find ways to drive the metric. But if you're driven to create authenticity and to create value and offer people something, money is the unintended byproduct of being part of something larger than yourself. And so of course I look at book sales and I look at, you know, I look at those things, but only over the course of time.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:29Simon Sinek?

  I'm not interested in any of my metrics in snapshots. I'm not interested in the week or the month because they don't tell me anything.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:36Simon Sinek?

  You know, I want to know that those things are doing well over time because that to me over time is proof of value. I don't get any friends to write fake reviews on Amazon. I don't get everybody to buy a book within the same hour to spike my Amazon sales. And I know all the tricks. I know what other authors do.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:51Simon Sinek?

  But then how do you know you've done good work?

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:53Simon Sinek?

  And I'm more interested in knowing that I've done good work.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  I was just thinking about this as you said it. So there was a long time with my social media and social media has been a real interesting for me because I started on YouTube and then all these other things came about and I was frustrated a couple of years back with my metrics, right? I did not feel like we were growing as, as fast as I was putting in effort for it. And I kept looking, you know, I'd refresh my feed and like metrics aren't growing, metrics aren't growing. So I was like, no more. I told my team, I was like aggressively helpful. Our new measure is aggressively helpful. If we're going to put out a video, my mission is to put out free public education every single day. That's what we do. Free public education every single day on social skills so that anyone could learn social skills, no matter what. Okay. I love views engaged, don't get me wrong, but like the metric is, is this video aggressively

• 38:39Speaker 01

  helpful or funny? Cause I think funny is also helpful in its own way in this, in this world, right? We need to have a little bit of laughter.

• 38:45Simon Sinek?

  Funny is a value.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Right. So that became the new metric and everything changed.

• 38:50Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Content became easier. Of course our socials exploded, like of course.

• 38:54Simon Sinek?

  It's more fun.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  I think that if you can think of that in your interactions, is it aggressively helpful? Is it adding value? Is it offering wisdom? Is it being kind? Is it being a good listener?

• 39:03Simon Sinek?

  And in real life.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:04Simon Sinek?

  It's one thing on socials, but in real life, you still have to read the room.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Very much.

• 39:09Simon Sinek?

  Because like, you know, again, I've been on the receiving end.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:13Simon Sinek?

  I've probably been on the giving end too, but you know, where I'm just like, I'm good. I appreciate all the help. I'm good, you know? Unsolicited advice.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Thank you for bringing this up. This is another piece of advice where if you don't do the second intention, right? Someone wants to help you. And actually, what they're probably thinking is, I want someone to like me, so I'm going to be helpful. Okay? So someone comes into an interaction with you and they're wanting to be helpful. And that's a good intention, but they don't read you, which is, I'm good. It's too much. I don't need the help. And they keep going and that actually ends up making you uncomfortable.

• 39:43Simon Sinek?

  I just watched it happen a few days ago where I was talking to a friend of mine. It was at an event and a guy walked up and made a very generous offer to her. And she was like, yeah, actually, I'd be up for that. Thank you. And if he just walked away, he would have been good.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  What happened?

• 40:06Simon Sinek?

  And then he made another offer. And she's like, okay. And then he like pulls a gift out of his bag and is like, you should try this. And it's like, it got to the point where like she needed rescuing. He was so nice and so generous and so kind. And he, and he kept going and going and going. I used to be that young entrepreneur. And I remember I, when I was a young entrepreneur and I, I, I brought in a, she was my work mom at my previous job. And I brought her in as a freelancer to come work with me now. And then I brought her to a new business pitch with me and I made my pitch and the pitch went great. And then I kept pitching. And she leans, she leans over to me and she says, put the shoes in the box.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:48Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:49Simon Sinek?

  And so I'm keenly aware now, like all these little pieces of advice that people have given me that have become like stuck in my head. So like, I'm constantly paying attention. Okay, I'm done. I made the sale. Put the shoes in the box. I'm done. You know, I have more to say, but don't worry about it.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  And read the room.

• 41:03Simon Sinek?

  And read the room.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:04Simon Sinek?

  And, and I, and I'll sometimes say to people, put the shoes in the box.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  No way.

• 41:07Simon Sinek?

  You're, you're done.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Are you okay giving that feedback? Cause I will tell you, one of the hardest things I think as of being a manager is giving constructive feedback. You don't have a problem with that? You can tell, I wouldn't, I would never have the guts to tell someone to put the shoes in the box.

• 41:21Simon Sinek?

  Whisper in, to whisper in there and put the shoes in the box?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  No, I don't think I could do it.

• 41:25Simon Sinek?

  I think it's, why would you not tell them?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  I would tell them maybe after.

• 41:28Simon Sinek?

  But it's the difference between them getting the sale and not getting the sale in the moment because they're about to screw it up.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. And I love that you have the courage to do it and you don't feel awkward about it.

• 41:36Simon Sinek?

  Maybe. I don't know.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  But you still do it. Oh, I love it.

• 41:39Simon Sinek?

  I think feedback should generally be given not in the situation.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:43Simon Sinek?

  People, people can't hear feedback.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:45Simon Sinek?

  In the middle.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:46Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:47Simon Sinek?

  While you're filming, you'd be like, hey, next time. No, no, no, no. Just wait till the end and then, you know. But this is one of those circumstances where you have to do it in the middle.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  That's a micro social skill. So that ability, you shouldn't take it for granted because your ability to say, I care about this person so much that I'm actually going to give them this feedback in the middle of this pitch. That takes a tremendous amount of courage and it also takes a tremendous amount of social grace.

• 42:10Simon Sinek?

  Somebody did it for me.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 42:13Simon Sinek?

  And so would I have had the courage if somebody didn't do it for me? Who knows?

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:16Simon Sinek?

  But because somebody did it for me, I can't pay her back, but I can pay it forwards. Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  That, but that is a social skill that we shouldn't ignore these micro social skills because those are incredibly empowering for you and for them, right? Like you know, that was the right thing. You can think back and think, I'm so glad I did that, even though it was awkward, I still did it.

• 42:35Simon Sinek?

  This is such an awkward conversation and uncomfortable conversation. I'll tell you why.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Okay, tell me.

• 42:39Simon Sinek?

  Right? And this, and this just.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Are you mad at me?

• 42:41Simon Sinek?

  No.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:42Simon Sinek?

  I wouldn't tell you.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 42:43Simon Sinek?

  I'm screaming with your head. I know, I know. No, that was cruel. Sorry. No, I'm not mad. Here's why this is an uncomfortable conversation. It just sort of struck me. And I know you deal with this all the time, which is

• 42:55Simon Sinek?

  no matter how much you say, I really want to give people value and I really want to serve and I really want to do this. At the end of the day, you cannot separate all of our inherent desire to be liked, included, seen, heard, understood, belong. You can't separate it.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:13Simon Sinek?

  And so there is a selfishness or an insecurity that goes along even when we offer value. Even when it's genuine, even when it's authentic, and even though that might not be the driving, it's in the recipe, it's in the mix. And so I guess the question isn't negating or ignoring the fact that there is.

• 43:31Simon Sinek?

  Even if it's just because it feels nice, right? To be included.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And socially safe.

• 43:35Simon Sinek?

  And socially safe. And it seems like it should be really, really simple to quote unquote, just be yourself.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:41Simon Sinek?

  But it's a, it is a very complex, messy, awkward, changing thing.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:51Simon Sinek?

  And, and this is why I love your prescription, which is do it small and do it in safe places and learn what it feels like and then you'll get good at it.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:04Simon Sinek?

  And the idea of practicing being authentic with your friends, start with your friends.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:09Simon Sinek?

  Because your friends love you.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:11Simon Sinek?

  I'll add one nuance. I don't know if you, I always, especially at work, I always recommend telling people what you're doing. So if you've taken a course or read a book or seen a talk and got some advice, tell everybody.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Simon Sinek?

  Hey, guys, I took this course. I'm going to start using your names more often because I was told that using your name is more important.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:28Simon Sinek?

  Than not using, or it makes you feel seen and heard. So I'm going to practice it. Tell me if it goes too far. Tell me if it feels good, but you're going to see me acting differently than you're used to because I'm going to try this new thing. And people love that.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  They love it.

• 44:41Simon Sinek?

  But otherwise they're going to be totally weirded out that you're doing all these things and they don't know where it's coming from.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  One step further, if you are learning body language or micro expressions, you definitely want to tell people because it goes like this. Hey, I'm taking this course on learning how to read facial expressions and so I'm going to be practicing that. Do you want to take it with me so you can read my facial expressions too? Because a funny thing happens when you begin to read the room, right? Like we were literally talking about step one is intention. Step two is literally reading all the micro cues of discomfort, all the micro cues of anxiety. Let me tell you, if you start doing that without people knowing, they're going to be like, what? You see me, right? You want to warn them and you want them to come with you.

• 45:19Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Right? You want them to practice with you. I also think the advice of like, just be yourself or be authentic.

• 45:25Simon Sinek?

  It's annoying advice.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  It's

• 45:27Simon Sinek?

  It's true. It's just not, it's just not helpful.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  I'm gonna take it one step further. If you tell someone to be themselves and they don't like themselves, it's cruel. And this was me for a long time. How can you be yourself if you don't like yourself? And so that advice makes me upset because I'm thinking you're telling someone to try to, to show up as something that they don't like. And so, yes, I think that there's a very fine line between being likable and being authentic and the line is manipulation, right? Like, it's easy to tip. I think if you are trying to find these moments where you feel actually good about yourself, most of my students are very smart and very talented, but there's a part of themselves that doesn't like themselves.

• 46:13Simon Sinek?

  By the way, that's everyone.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  That's everyone. To, to different measures. It's everyone, right? So if I can say, when is a moment in conversation at work or with your friends, where you feel really good about yourself? That's what we're looking for is like you feel really good about yourself. And yes, that's a little bit selfish, but that also is going to trigger more confidence. It's going to trigger more flow. And so these micro social skills, these micro strengths are actually just a way for me to say, there are parts of yourself that you can like, and that's what we should be highlighting.

• 46:45Simon Sinek?

  What specific thing happened in your life that you made the conversion from not liking yourself to liking yourself?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Probably meeting my husband. I met my husband at age 20, so we've been together for 20 years. And I was peak awkward when he met me and he just never left. In attachment theory, I'm like avoidant dismissive. And so I learned very young to just avoid and be independent. And when I was awkward.

• 47:18Simon Sinek?

  Safety mechanism.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so when I was awkward or I did something wrong and he would give me all kinds of feedback. My awkwardness comes out as, um, Overquestioning. My awkwardness comes out as trying to overcompensate. And he would literally say to me, like, a version of too much. And he didn't leave, though. He would give me the feedback and then be like, well, gonna try again next time. Or I would leave a party and be like, I think everyone's angry at me. And he'd be like, I don't think they're angry, but I think she's angry at you. And here's why. He never left. And then he was like, let's do this forever. And I was like, really? And that really surprised me because he saw me through all my early business years, all my socially awkward years. You know, I met him in college. That wasn't a moment. It was, I was really shocked when he just wanted to stay with me.

• 47:59Simon Sinek?

  So you believed him?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I believed him because he didn't want to go.

• 48:02Simon Sinek?

  So the minute you believe that people like you for you, and that sometimes people are angry at you, and that's okay, too.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:08Simon Sinek?

  Then you liked yourself because if he didn't stick around, then you would reinforce the narrative to yourself that I'm clearly a bad person, not a nice person. There's nothing to like because no one likes me.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  And no one stays.

• 48:20Simon Sinek?

  No one stays.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  I was truly shocked when he proposed. I was like, truly shocked. I was like, you, why would you want to marry me?

• 48:26Simon Sinek?

  Did you believe him the first time he said, I love you?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 48:30Simon Sinek?

  How many times did he have to say? What did he have to do to prove it to you? That, not prove it to you, that's the wrong.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Moved. I did not believe him.

• 48:37Simon Sinek?

  You could still think he's nuts and insane and crazy.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  When he moved, I was like, you want to be near me?

• 48:42Simon Sinek?

  Right, so was that, was that?

• 48:43Speaker 01

  That, that was when I started to believe. Started to believe. But it took me six years. Six years to be able to commit, only because I was afraid.

• 48:53Simon Sinek?

  So you're talking about something more beautiful than I think the entire conversation we've had. Which is the act of service.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:06Simon Sinek?

  Of helping people see the good in themselves starts with our desire to see the good in others.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:13Simon Sinek?

  And when we enter a meeting, when we go on a date, we look for all the bad things. We look for everything that's wrong. Why this person's not right for me? Why I can't be with them? And we'll go down the list. And it is simply a mindset. To simply go, I'm gonna find all the things I actually really like about this person, and I'm gonna keep doing it. There's plenty of time for me to find out the things I don't like, or won't work. So I'll get there, but I'm just gonna do good. And that choice.

• 49:47Simon Sinek?

  Is the most generous thing you can do for someone. There's an irony in it, right? If I choose to only see the good in you, at some point you'll believe me. It reinforces that we cannot live without each other. This entire conversation of how can I be likable? And how can I build my social grit? And how can I have a conversation? It's all very me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:11Simon Sinek?

  And

• 50:13Simon Sinek?

  rather to go through life and saying, you know what? How can I help somebody else feel not awkward? How can I help somebody else feel normal? In fact, I wouldn't even say feel not awkward because it reinforces the awkward. How can I help someone feel normal? What touched a nerve? When did you will up?

• 50:30Speaker 01

  I think that it actually takes courage to search for good in people. Because right now we're very focused on what's wrong with everyone.

• 50:41Simon Sinek?

  But what touched a nerve with you?

• 50:43Speaker 01

  I think that he, all my bad, my awkwardness, my difficulty, he was like, I still see good in you. And we can figure it out. I took so long for me to believe that. And that was extremely kind. And I still feel that that's what kind of makes me emotional. It's like, I still feel like he has to sometimes put up with me, you know? And he still is like, I'm here, you know? And I'm like, how generous? Because his generosity allows me to be brave socially. It allows me to be brave in business. Like, I started my company three months after I met him.

• 51:22Simon Sinek?

  Because you had the courage.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  I had the courage because I had a base. And I was also thinking.

• 51:26Simon Sinek?

  You felt not alone.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  I felt not alone and that I wouldn't be alone. Even if the business failed.

• 51:31Simon Sinek?

  And that's, by the way, that's where courage comes from, which is you only need one person in your life who's like, I got you. And even if it goes sideways, I'll be with you.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 51:39Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  And I did have a failed business.

• 51:41Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Like, my first book completely failed. Published book, thought it was going to change my life, completely failed. Had a breakdown, thought my life and career was over, but he was there. He was like, let's try something else.

• 51:54Simon Sinek?

  Tell you an experiment I did. A friend of mine was going through it. Like, life was not good. Her business wasn't doing well. Her marriage was on the rocks. Just like, she wasn't enjoying being a mom. She couldn't get a break. And so she knows what I do. And so she's like, can you? And I was like, I would be honored. And so every Wednesday, we got together for 90 minutes and I coached her. And she'd feel amazing when she left and about a day or two would go by and then I'd see her the following week and she felt like shit again. And this went on for months. She'd feel, she'd get a spike after we spent time and then it would diminish over the course of the week. And then, you know, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And I realized this is, it's not working, you know?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 52:38Simon Sinek?

  So I looked into my own work and I know about like sort of Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12th step is to help another alcoholic and service is the thing, right? So I, I well intentioned and I didn't tell her what I was doing, but I, I had this theory. I'm like, I'm going to get her to help me. So I said to her, hey, look, we're getting together every week. I'm helping you. I'm love doing it. I trust you. I love you. You know me really well. I'd love to get your input on my stresses too, which was true. It wasn't performative. I said, why don't we do 45 minutes each every, every week? She agreed and we started with me. It just happened to go 90 minutes. And then the next week, we started with me. It just happened to go 90 minutes. And then the next week, we started with me and it just happened to go 90 minutes.

• 53:20Simon Sinek?

  And before I knew it, within weeks, not months, her marriage is back on track. Her company was thriving. She was loving being a mom again and it was working. And it's, that's when I learned the power of service. It's my favorite advice to follow. It's also my favorite advice to give, which is instead of trying to solve your problem, help somebody solve the problem you're struggling with. So if you're awkward, help somebody else overcome their awkwardness. If you're, you know,

• 53:45Speaker 01

  That's my career.

• 53:46Simon Sinek?

  XY, you know, that's your career.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  I feel awkward. The only antidote to my awkwardness is helping other people feel less awkward.

• 53:52Simon Sinek?

  Oh, to help people feel normal.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 53:54Simon Sinek?

  Right? I think that perfectly summarizes what authenticity means, what value means, what generosity means, all these things that can be manipulated, misunderstood or misapplied. I think at the core is if you genuinely are trying to help somebody else, like you can't make friends, help somebody else make a friend.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:09Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  You're awkward going to a party, help someone else who's feeling awkward.

• 54:12Simon Sinek?

  Right. Go to the person standing in the corner.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  That's it. That's the next thing is like you were talking about where to stay. Oh, we were talking about where to. Stand earlier, go help someone who looks really awkward.

• 54:20Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, the opportunity to take the spotlight off yourself, which means you're not stuck in your head. And you're not worried about all of the tricks and the, the things you've learned. But, and you can bumble and fumble it because you know what? You're there with the generosity of your heart. And I think that is what you got, which is somebody else. You were just dumb luck that you happened to trip over and meet somebody. Who was so keen to help you be the person you want to be. Because he's a person of service and you ended up loving yourself. You know, finding confidence, building a business, writing another book, all of these things.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:57Simon Sinek?

  It, and it is the most beautiful thing in the world. And the only thing you want to do when you meet somebody like that is give back.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:02Simon Sinek?

  And so it is reciprocal, but it takes one of you to start.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  I also think that this is the test of every relationship in your life.

• 55:10Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  If you don't feel that you could be of service to them. If you don't feel you could authentically help them find their good and support them. The relationship is not going to work.

• 55:20Simon Sinek?

  And to recognize that the metrics aren't the same, right? Of what you give and what you receive don't have to be the same. It's not, it's not apples to apples. So I mean, I'll give you an example. There's a couple of friends of mine that I met a few years ago. That I couldn't understand why they were friends with me. They're way more successful than me. They're way more successful than me. They're like, they're dynamic, they're way smarter than me. They're way more social than me, they're way better connected than me.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  There's so many things wrong with this, no.

• 55:45Simon Sinek?

  And I literally would hang out with them. I'd have a good time and then I'd walk away going, I don't understand. My mistake was I was comparing my value on their playing field.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:57Simon Sinek?

  But the value that I brought wasn't on their playing field, which is why I had value. The thing that they liked about me was the thing they couldn't get from all their other successful fancy friends.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:06Simon Sinek?

  Because I didn't want anything from them. I, I brought something completely different to the table. I like, I don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. And I think when people's like, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? It's a bad conversation to have. Because I, we all have attributes and characteristics. And in some circumstances, they'll show up as strengths. And in some circumstances, they'll show up as weaknesses.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 56:27Simon Sinek?

  And the hack for life is know what your characteristics and attributes are.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:31Simon Sinek?

  Know in what circumstances they manifest as strengths. And then put yourself in that situation as often as possible.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 56:37Simon Sinek?

  So for example, let's go back to all of the stuff you've been teaching.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:40Simon Sinek?

  I know that I am terrible at holding court and I do not like crowds.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 56:44Simon Sinek?

  But when you put me one on one, I'm a fricking machine. So guess what I try and do more often than not? One on one. Right? Why? Because I'm just going to naturally be better.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:53Simon Sinek?

  So I can learn all the tricks.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:56Simon Sinek?

  But they're always going to be inauthentic. I'm always going to be not as good as somebody who's naturally good in those circumstances.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:01Simon Sinek?

  So why would I compete on that playing field? Why?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 57:04Simon Sinek?

  I'm going to go compete where my natural abilities show up as strengths over here, not over there.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  And remember, there's always room for growth.

• 57:12Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  So yes, you show up where you're already strong, where you're already good. Part one. Part two is maybe I could be good at that.

• 57:22Simon Sinek?

  And I have to push my boundaries. Otherwise I'm stuck in, I have to work from home because I'm, right? But again, it's the attributes and the characteristics.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:29Simon Sinek?

  And then the opportunity is not, I know these three places. I'm only going to do these three places. My, my goal is, okay, I know these three.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:37Simon Sinek?

  Now where are all the others? Which means I have to put myself in situations that it doesn't go well two, three, four, five times. Because I can't trust it once. It's like, I've tried sushi once, I didn't like it. I'm like, no, no, no, you got to try it a few times.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:48Simon Sinek?

  Right? And so the opportunity for life is to find as many places as possible. Because the more places you can find where your characteristics and attributes show up as strengths means you're stronger in more places.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  And who brings them out in you? By the way, things that I used to be good at, I'm no longer good at.

• 58:02Simon Sinek?

  There were, that's true too.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Right? Age changes things. People in your life changes things. Like when I became a mom, all of a sudden I became very good at certain things and very bad at certain things. And so it also implies that our strengths and weaknesses are fixed. They are not.

• 58:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. Which is why you have to keep putting yourself in situations and being good at being uncomfortable.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:19Simon Sinek?

  I could talk to you forever.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  I know you can.

• 58:21Simon Sinek?

  This is so, this is so the opposite of uncomfortable.

• 58:25Simon Sinek?

  This is really wonderful. Thanks for being so open and even being willing to tell me something personal.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

• 58:31Simon Sinek?

  I really appreciate it. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. You can also watch A Bit of Optimism on Spotify. And remember, Spotify Premium users can enjoy the show ad-free. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simoncennick.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.