Pod Insights The Minimalists 491 | The Beauty of Uncertainty About this episode The Minimalists talk about the surprising beauty of uncertainty, and they wish a fond farewell to a beloved team member.
Discussed in this episode:
If I feel stuck at work, what path should I choose to help alleviate my career uncertainty? (2:13)
How do you know whether it's time for a change in your life? (25:04)
Right Here, Right Now: Malabama's final episode. (36:21)
Listener tip: Everything you do is an underfulfillment of your potential to someone else. (42:02)
Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists
Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast
Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:20 Speaker 00 Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.
0:39 Speaker 01 You're listening to the Minimalist Podcast with Joshua Fields Milburn and TK Coleman, recorded live at Earthing Studios in sunny California.
0:47 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yes, thank you, Malibu. Hello, everybody. Today is a very special podcast episode. Not only are we talking about the surprising beauty of uncertainty, but it's also Malibu's last week in California. And we're going to talk about that toward the end of page one. But first, coming up on this free, public minimal episode, a caller has a quandary about feeling stuck at work. And then we've got a question about knowing when it's time for a change in your life. And that's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment with Malibu and a listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 491. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon.
1:31 Joshua Fields Millburn? The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode of this podcast. It's a full decade of podcast archives. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or a comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call. Our phone number is 406-219-7839, or you can email a voice recording to [email protected] . Our first question today is from Michael.
2:15 Speaker 03 What's up, minimalists? This is Michael. I'm a Patreon subscriber from Minneapolis. So I feel kinda stuck, particularly in my career, and I'm not even sure how to define my career. I'm thirty years old and have found success in whatever industry I've worked in, restaurants, retail, nonprofit development, the list goes on. I've been a graphic designer at an architecture firm, a carpenter. I've even owned a handyman business for the past three years. Currently, I work part-time as a designer at a run specialty store, directing brand activations, events, and marketing campaigns. The work is enjoyable, but because of how few hours the business can afford to pay me, I feel handcuffed creatively
3:00 Speaker 03 and at times taken advantage of. So I'm sitting here as a true jack-of-all-trades, not knowing which direction to go. I'm currently applying for different roles at local creative agencies, and it seems like every entry-level position requires four or more years of agency experience, which doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. I have more experience than most when it comes to hands-on work and experiences, but I'm struggling with how to market my skills and abilities to show the true value that I can bring to an organization. My entrepreneurial spirit is pushing me to just create my own path, but I, and my wife for that matter, would really appreciate consistency
3:42 Speaker 03 and the stable income that full-time employment brings. I'm stuck on what my next move is in my career and creating my rich life on my minimalism journey. Any thoughts on getting unstuck from this type of situation? Thanks for all you do. Much love from Minnesota.
3:59 Joshua Fields Millburn? TK, I hear a few questions here, and this is really your wheelhouse. So I want to get your insights here. I think in a moment, we'll probably talk to Michael a bit about feeling stuck at work and some of that career uncertainty that's outside of work as well, knowing which path to go down. But also, there was an embedded question in there besides that, and I think this is the one worth starting with. And that question is, what should I do if I enjoy my work, but I kinda feel taken advantage of?
4:29 Speaker 04 Well, we have to zoom in on that. What does that mean? You're being taken advantage of. Is someone disrespecting you? Is someone asking you to do things that you cannot realistically or healthfully do? Is someone making demands of you, but not providing the support? I would zoom in on that and ask myself, how is this an opportunity for me to perhaps be a little bit more honest, a little bit more forthcoming, a little bit more transparent, a little bit more communicative about my limitations? Sometimes when we're in situations where we like the people we work with or we believe in what we do, maybe they can't afford to pay us a whole lot of money. We feel morally obliged to help out, and that's okay. There's room for some of that. But then when you overextend yourself,
5:12 Speaker 04 what happens is you accumulate this silent resentment that undermines the whole point of sacrificial integrity because it just causes you to be bitter towards other people. And that's always going to come out and show up in other ways.
5:25 Joshua Fields Millburn? I think that resentment piece will come up quite a bit throughout this episode since we're talking about uncertainty, which I think gets to the second part of this question here about feeling stuck at work. And it's not really that he feels stuck at one particular place. He feels stuck at the point at which he is at right now. I'm 30 years old, which is often when this happens. Somewhere between 25 and 35, we start looking around and questioning our assumptions that may have worked for us for a period of time. And what I hear from him as I was trying to write down everything is like, I've worked in restaurants and retail and architecture and design, and I'm a handyman, and I'm considering being an entrepreneur. And I'm sure there were other things in there as well, right? And I think it's great.
6:08 Joshua Fields Millburn? You can wear many hats and you can accumulate a bunch of skills. But also, when you have all of these skills and you're unsure which path to take, which direction to go, that causes one kind of uncertainty. And I'm not here to tell you that uncertainty is bad. In fact, we pathologize uncertainty. But can you imagine a life with no uncertainty? When we like it, we call it variety, by the way. I really want some variety. I want some novelty in my life. I want some excitement. And that's, those are all byproducts of uncertainty. But of course, we have a human need for certainty as well. If I came into the studio and I thought that the walls were going to collapse in on me, or I thought this microphone wasn't working and it was shoddy.
6:53 Joshua Fields Millburn? I'm not going to be able to do my job here because I'm so uncertain with the fundamental things that I need to feel certain about. And so we need a base level of certainty, and some of us require more certainty than others. You think about people on the extreme end, like the adventure sportsmen, where they're free solo climbing, or they're putting on those squirrel suits and flying off of mountains. They're parasailing, or they're parachuting. They're doing dangerous things with their body, things that can get them hurt or even killed. But they're doing it because of the uncertainty. They live within that uncertainty. Then there's, of course, this other kind of uncertainty. I'm reminded of the H.P.
7:38 Joshua Fields Millburn? Lovecraft quote. He said, "The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is the fear of the unknown." The fear of the unknown. In fact, I think fundamentally, every fear is a fear of the unknown, right? We don't fear the known. That's called the past. We know how the past worked out for us. We can regret the past. We don't worry about the past, though. We can worry about what that past might mean for our future. And of course, that fear is different from clear and present danger. If there's a danger right in front of me, I actually don't have any fear. If a hippopotamus walks into the studio right now, I'm not going to start worrying
8:19 Joshua Fields Millburn? about, oh, no, how am I going to pay my rent next Thursday? All of the fears go out the window, and I'm actually forced to act. But that uncertainty, when we feel so much of it, like where Michael is right now, he may feel so much uncertainty that he's paralyzed and doesn't know where to act, because it might all feel like a bad decision.
8:39 Speaker 04 And we have to be leery of the potential problem of inherited uncertainties. There are the uncertainties we have and feel about our own lives. Where am I going? Like, what am I really doing? Like, what do I really want? And then there's the uncertainty we experience when we try to make sense of our lives to others. And around this age and stage is really when people can start to worry about you, and you can feel that pressure, like, hey, you're not 19 and 20. 19 and 20 is kind of cute. You know, we just want to invest in you. We want to mentor you. Just about anything that you do within the realm of what's legal is pretty forgivable. 25, you know, you're getting there, you know, start focusing in, but you're still young.
9:22 Speaker 04 But man, when you're, when that nine gets into your twenties and you hear that ding, you know, it's like, hey, you better be for real now. Where are you going? You need to have some savings. You need to have some money. You need to have some answers to some questions. And sometimes you can actually be more okay than you think with a little uncertainty. But it can feel really bad when other people are asking you, so what's up with your life? What are you up to? And you don't have a compelling answer. And this gets exacerbated by the comparison game, not just social media, but it could be high school reunions. It could be run ins with friends, people that have taken a more conventional path. And, you know, by the time, you know, you're 30, everybody, you know, they're married. They've got a couple of kids. They're doing what they intend to do for the rest of their lives.
10:04 Speaker 04 They've got the home in the neighborhood you grew up in and where the hell are you in your life? And it's like, oh, I'm internalizing all that. One thing I would do is I would step back for a moment. I would take heed to the advice of my good friend, Isaac Morehouse, who, when talking about career says, tell your story, not your status. We have these habits of professionalism, like I worked as an accountant for two years. I worked as a restaurant for two years and we tell our status. And when we tell our status, not only is that boring and highly replaceable, because you're not going to out compete anyone at the level of status. But you also feel like your life is disjointed. You've just got this thing over here, this thing over there. But when you tell your story, it challenges you to think in a way
10:48 Speaker 04 where you have to actually identify the thread of transferable skills and valuable experiences that you have lived over the course of a lifetime. So maybe you spent some time working at a restaurant. You spent some time working at the box office for a cinema. You spent some time, you know, doing some volunteer work for a church. You spent some time, you know, you know, taking out the garbage for a restaurant, whatever it may be. But when you step back and tell your story, you can say, I've been solving problems for people for five years. I've been working with people to resolve difficult issues in challenging stressful situations all my life. Actually, when I look back, I have never not worked in customer service.
11:30 Speaker 04 Even back when I was nineteen in college, working at the Alzheimer's dementia unit, helping older people to take their medicines, helping them to take showers. I've always been in the business of working with people, including helping the people that nobody else wanted to help. And you start to get excited about your experiences. And this is important when you're applying for a job, because we have so much respect for these darn filters. I think you mentioned before a writer's advice that said something like, know the rules so that you can break them.
12:00 Speaker 04 I think you have to know the filter so that you can transcend them. Anytime a company says you gotta have four years of experience, that is not an ironclad law. Now, it can stop you if you can't get in front of the right person. I understand that it's a difficulty. But that is there to protect the company from wasting their time. Because chances are, out of all the people that are gonna apply for this job, the ones who don't have four years of experience are probably a waste of their time in the sense of not being qualified. But people have the ability to understand that there might be an outlier out there who has the experiences, but don't meet the technical prerequisites. And when you establish a filter, you gotta be precise. You gotta say something. And so, when you focus on telling your story, not your status,
12:42 Speaker 04 you can create a portfolio, you can create a presentation that tells people what you have done and how you've done it in a way that can bypass the filter. So don't turn away from these jobs and these opportunities just because there's a filter there that says you don't have five years of experience. Try anyway, and don't just list off things on your resume. Put together a pitch deck and a portfolio that delineates your projects, the people that you've worked with. Do something interesting that nobody else is doing so they can take notice.
13:11 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, because if you're simply following what everyone else is doing, then yes, you're going to have to rely on your so-called credentials, right? But credentials aren't just a piece of paper. They're not just a particular university. And it's not even necessarily your job history. Your credentials can be, here's the value that I can bring to an organization. I know Bama, when we hired you, or when we hired Savvy D, or anyone else we've hired, I've never asked anyone for their resume here. Now, we had other people on the team who did ask when they were interviewing you for that.
13:41 Speaker 01 Podcast Sean asked for my CV and I had to Google what a CV was.
13:44 Joshua Fields Millburn? And because for me, I'm less interested in that because I want to see the whole person. And it's really hard if I just grab this piece of paper. This is not Mallory. This isn't her CV, right? And okay, I understand that can point toward the person and their so-called accomplishments. But I do want to drill down on the certainty/uncertainty paradox because it's paradoxical because those are two different human needs. And certainty is necessary for comfort. In fact, when we have beautiful certainty, we call it comfort. And we have a base level need for comfort.
14:25 Joshua Fields Millburn? Sometimes we overprize comfort at the expense of variety or growth, at other things that are at purpose, that are important to us, right? And that's when comfort or certainty becomes ugly. But the opposite of that is uncertainty, which can feel ugly in the moment because it's uncomfortable, but it can also be beautiful. If you had so much certainty in your life for a long enough period of time, you would beg for some struggle in your life. You'd beg for some sort of problem to show up because you are a creative person who needs to solve problems. That is part of the human condition.
15:06 Joshua Fields Millburn? So yes, you need certainty for comfort, but you need uncertainty for a meaningful life. You need those components of struggle. And so when I think about uncertainty, I think about desires because your uncertainties are Are a product of your desires. And then the question is, what kind of desires do I have? Are these memetic desires? As TK brought up a moment ago. Is someone else telling me that this is what the idea of success is, especially by age 30? And so now I'm picking up their desires that they handed to me. And they lovingly handed them to me, out of concern for my well-being. But maybe they were a bit misguided because maybe if I take on their standards and I make them expectations for myself,
15:51 Joshua Fields Millburn? it might make them happy, but it could make me miserable along the way. And so the question is, are your desires your desires? Or did someone else hand those desires to you? No wonder we struggle with this level of excess uncertainty as opposed to the beauty of the uncertainty. The beauty of the uncertainty is called exploration. It's the reason that people travel all over the world to new cities and new cultures and learn new languages and take on new jobs and meet new friends with new people. And they get a new apartment. And then they start trying to get proxies for the newness. I'll buy some new things and that'll give me some variety. And then until those things give me too much certainty and then I buy more new things to give me some variety.
16:35 Joshua Fields Millburn? Those shortcuts to certainty are very short lasting as well. And so you may have heard, I think it was Naval Ravikant that said, desire is a contract with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. I don't completely agree with that because I think ultimately what we want is desire. And desire leads to uncertainty. So in a way, we do want a level of uncertainty because we want a level of variety in our lives. But if I were to rephrase what Naval said, I would say that craving is a contract with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. The irony of that is once you get what you want, you will want something else. There will be some new uncertainty and that's the beauty of it.
17:18 Joshua Fields Millburn? For the longest time, I just wanted everything to be permanent in a fixed state. And that will happen. It's called death. And I'll be forced to let go of all the things that I've. Clung to for a long time, all the things that I've craved, all of those things will cease to exist. But until then, I need to dance with the beauty of the uncertainty. I have to welcome in that uncertainty as long as my base level of certainty is met.
17:45 Speaker 04 That's exactly right. I'm gonna give a couple of practical pieces of advice that could help you in thinking things through, Michael. One is I would make a list of all the jobs I've worked and all the roles that I've had. And I would write three things for each job. Number one, what did I like about this role that I would like to do more of? Number two, what did I dislike about this role that I would like to do less of or simply cease doing altogether?
18:11 Joshua Fields Millburn? So good.
18:12 Speaker 04 And three, what is one thing that this role has in common with all of the other roles on my list? That will not only help you get better at telling your story and not just your status, but it will also help you make future decisions about where to go. Because as you see the common thread of likes and dislikes, what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, what I want more of and what I want less of, and the common threads in what I've already been doing, that's gonna help you make decisions and avoid decisions that wouldn't serve you. The next thing I would do is I would go get a copy of a book that has stood the test of time, and we've had him on our show, you can preview him here, but get the book.
18:55 Speaker 04 It's by Cal Newport, and it's called So Good It They Can't Ignore You. And he makes the case that the advice to follow your passion has some merit, but it has the shortcoming of conditioning people to think that the goal of professional life is to sort of find through either introspection or analysis, this one career that's going to satisfy me with delight independently of just about anything else. And what he proves and illustrates quite beautifully is that meaning is manufactured. You love the work that you do through a combination of elements, one of which is, hey, I don't hate this, this is some-
19:38 Speaker 04 Thing that I could see myself doing, but there are other elements like the art of making your work art. The art of pouring yourself into your work in very specific creative ways that causes meaning to come back to you. And so as you're thinking about things, I would caution against the idea of looking at yourself as you're just jumping around, wasting a lot of time. And you should be somewhere else other than where you are now. Find those common threads so that you can see the evidence of progress in your life. Take a look at so good, they can't ignore you so that you can, you know, really begin to appreciate the manufactured meaning perspective. And, and know that as you go into your next position, you have room to explore, you have room to experiment.
20:18 Speaker 04 It will move you forward and you don't have to discover what you're going to be doing for the rest of your life today. That will be like you panicking and forcing yourself to say, the next time I go on a date, she's gotta be the one. It's like, oh, yeah, I, I, I know you feel like it's late. I know you're really passionate about this and I know you want it, but I'm telling you right now, that kind of impatience, that kind of rushing it. Is either going to put you in a bad position that will destroy your life, or it's just going to make what you want run away from you.
20:47 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, that, that level of craving will produce more uncertainty, more uncertainty ultimately, right? And because you're, you're desiring an immediate resolution. And I, I look at the, all the things that he talked about, a restaurant, a retail and designer, architecture and, and being a handyman, which by the way. Any of these things can be an answer and that will drive me crazy because there is not a right answer. And I think that's what Cal Newport talks about is so good, they can't ignore you is that there are many answers. There are many things for which you can be passionate about because they align with the person you want to be. And in fact, it's a mistake to find here is the one path, I must follow my desire, follow my passion, right?
21:31 Joshua Fields Millburn? As if it, as if it was preordained, you were born to be an astronaut. And if I'm not an astronaut, then therefore I'm a failure.
21:38 Speaker 04 Career one itis.
21:39 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, the, the fancy thing about this is that like you could be a handyman, you could, you live in Minneapolis right now, but let's say you were in. California, if you're a handyman in Beverly Hills, you probably make $400 an hour. Now, you have to be a really good handyman to be a handyman in Beverly Hills, but there are people who are willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money there to get good handyman work done. And so maybe the answer for that is, wow, I could work 20 hours a week and then focus on this other. Maybe I'm not that passionate about being a handyman, but I'm really passionate about architecture. Great. What if I paid my bills in 20 hours a week or 30 hours a week or no more than 40 hours a week and I have 168 hours a week? Think
22:22 Joshua Fields Millburn? of all that other time I have to focus on my passion. I don't have to be passionate about my vocation. It helps. It's wonderful if you can be, but it's not even a requirement. And so you don't, you just need that level of certainty, like my bills are paid. Wonderful, right? But beyond that, where's the uncertainty at which I'd like to explore? Michael, I'd love to give you a clutter counseling session with TK Coleman.
22:47 Speaker 04 Oh, yeah.
22:47 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, because I think unpacking this is going to take more than 15 or 20 minutes. Sit down with him on Zoom for an hour. I really think that TK minimizing career clutter is, in my opinion, TK's strongest skill. He started a entrepreneurship program for people who wanted apprenticeships and wanted to go a non-traditional route. And that's obviously where Michael is now. He's finding his discontent or his uncertainty around those traditional routes. It doesn't mean he can't learn something from it, but I'd love for you to sit down and talk about career clutter with him. If there's any other type of clutter that might be plaguing him, whether it's relationship clutter or material clutter or information
23:30 Joshua Fields Millburn? clutter, wherever you are, you can book an appointment with TK Coleman over at theminimalists.com. Just click Counseling at the top.
23:38 Speaker 04 Michael, we're going to get to the bottom of it and you're going to feel good about it at the end of that session. I'm going to give you one piece of homework to do before you show up and I want everybody who's not having the session to hear this so that you can do it as well. Imagine there were a law that said, no matter how much you hate it, every month for the rest of your life, you're going to have to go to a different place of employment and work a different job. My question to you is, what do you want to bring to each job? What is that? And how can you start making room for that in your life right now? How can you start bringing that energy and creativity to your work now?
24:14 Joshua Fields Millburn? What a powerful question. Clutter Counseling, theminimalists.com. Just click Counseling at the top. You can book an appointment in person here in Los Angeles with TK or via Zoom as well. Before we get back to our callers, Malibu, what time is it?
24:28 Speaker 01 You know what time it is. It's time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.
24:34 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yes, indeed. Now, during the lightning round, we attempt to answer your question with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free if you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.e-mail. We'll never send you spam or junk or advertisements, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. What is the question of the week this week?
25:06 Speaker 01 How do you know whether it's time for a change in your life?
25:08 Joshua Fields Millburn? Oh, there's some uncertainty for you, huh? How do you know whether it's time for a change in your life? Before we get to our pithy answers, let's hear from some of our simpletons, Malibu.
25:19 Speaker 01 Jenny said, "Sometimes the universe demands change. I was just told funding for my work position is being terminated, so it's time for a change in my life again. Change is constant. We can't fight it. We must observe it and learn from it."
25:33 Joshua Fields Millburn? Oh, I love this. TK, what happens when we fight change?
25:38 Speaker 04 Well, when we fight change, it's like we basically...
25:46 Speaker 04 We basically set ourselves at odds against reality itself, and we produce incongruence in our own lives. Because change is the only constant. It's the one fight that you can never, ever win. And so when you say, "I'm going to fight change", you're essentially saying, "I'm going to orient my life around that which is anti-life."
26:09 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, yeah. And that's why I think Jenny's point is so useful here, because it's instructive in a way, like... Yeah, you can fight change. It's like fighting the waves in the ocean. If I walk out into the ocean and start swinging at the waves, they don't even swing back. They just keep battering me. Or I can sort of go with the wave and it's much more peaceful that way. I can embrace the beauty of the uncertainty.
26:34 Speaker 01 Alan said, "It's time for a change when you recognize you're moving away from your values."
26:39 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yes. TK, how do we know when we're moving away from our values?
26:44 Speaker 04 People often describe it in the form of like, when you don't have that peace. I like to use the word incongruence, but when you feel something that feels like you're contradicting yourself, you're lying to yourself, you're hiding from yourself. Seth Godin says, "One question we should always ask ourselves when we go to work, not just how much do I make, what am I learning, who am I meeting, where am I going? But who am I becoming in the process of doing this kind of work over the long term? If you don't like that answer, then that's a powerful indicator for you."
27:20 Joshua Fields Millburn? That points toward the fact that you might be going against your values. And although you may not know what your values are, that's why the Minimalists, we put together a values worksheet. You can download it, theminualists.com/v, as in values. There's also an essay there about understanding your values. But it's writing down the four different types of values. We have the foundational values, the structural values, the surface values, and the imaginary values. All those values that are handed to you by your peer group or your society, your family, that you may want to let go of so you can focus on the things that you actually value. And what's fascinating, as soon as I started sitting down with my wife and talking about what our values are, I realized that, oh, I better understand you now. I can see what you value. And yeah, we have a lot of similar values, but there are going to be some things
28:06 Joshua Fields Millburn? that you value that I don't. And I could dismiss and say, oh, well, that's stupid. Why do you value that? Or I could say, oh, wow, tell me more about why you value that.
28:14 Speaker 04 One other quick thing, Josh, if you're wondering about moving away from your values, then that's a good sign that you might be moving away from them. If you're asking yourself, am I, am I being true to myself? Probably not, and that doesn't mean you have to leave the situation, but you might want to reframe how you're engaging it.
28:29 Joshua Fields Millburn? And in order to do that, understanding your values is important. You say, I feel like I'm moving away from my values, but wait a minute. What are my values? And so, download the worksheet. It's free over at theminimalists.com on the resources page, or you can read that essay over there as well. What's another one, Bama?
28:44 Speaker 01 Tim said, "If, like the 30-day rule for purchasing items, I find myself still wanting to make a change after 30 days, I try to do it if it won't completely upend everything else."
28:54 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, sometimes we don't want to upend everything in our life just to make a small change. But sometimes, we're gonna talk to Bama here in a moment. She's upending almost everything in her life very soon. And so, when does it make sense, TK, to upend everything?
29:12 Speaker 04 Hmm, does it make sense?
29:15 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah. When? When might it make sense?
29:19 Speaker 04 I don't know if it does.
29:21 Joshua Fields Millburn? Hmm.
29:22 Speaker 04 When might it make sense to murder a man?
29:25 Speaker 01 About 8:30.
29:29 Speaker 04 Hey, look, you know what? I won't play the semantic cop here.
29:32 Joshua Fields Millburn? But let's go there. Let's go there. So, when does it make sense to murder a man? When you are defending yourself. And so, maybe I could put it in that context. When does it make sense to upend everything? When you feel like you, it's a type of self-defense in a way. Because otherwise, I might be dead if I don't upend everything. Like spiritually dead, metaphysically dead. In a meaningful way, I don't feel alive anymore. Then maybe it makes sense to upend everything.
30:02 Speaker 04 Yeah, dang it, now I'm kicking myself because I walked right into that. Like, I make a distinction between kill and murder. So, I thought I was airtight on that one, and you just like knocked it down. I'm so angry right now, but I'll leave that alone. So, you know, the reason I feel qualms about upending everything is, I understand what people are saying, but I feel funny about it because I want people to understand that you never can and never have to upend everything. You may have to do some things that feel dramatic relative to what you did in the past. You may have to- Get rid of a lot of stuff and redefine a lot of things. But you are never upending everything because everything that you do is based on a foundation of hard fought wisdom that you have acquired from experience.
30:44 Speaker 04 And you are never losing that. In fact, when you let things go, relationships, places, positions, things that no longer serve you, you are actually giving yourself more access to that wisdom and that maturity and that character that you fought hard for.
30:57 Joshua Fields Millburn? Spot on. Let's do one more, Bama.
30:59 Speaker 01 This one comes from Zachary. I know when the pain of things staying the same is worse than the pain of change or the unknown, it's time for a change. It's also true in reverse. If the joy of change is stronger than the joy of consistency, it's time for a change.
31:14 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, sometimes it is scarier to stay. I remember this, people ask, wasn't it terrifying to leave your corporate job at age 29? Or I was almost 30, getting ready to turn 30. And yeah, it was, but it was scarier to stay. And the reason I say that is I worked for a couple of guys who were emphatically unhappy, chronically unhappy, but they were wildly successful. I mean, big house in the suburbs, luxury cars, retirement accounts, status and perceived status in the community as well, status at work.
31:56 Joshua Fields Millburn? And, and they were well respected. Well, you could even say they were famous within their peer group, right? And they were revered, but maybe I wanted those things or I thought I wanted those things because maybe it would quench my uncertainty. But the closer I got to the guys I aspired to be like, the more I realized I didn't want to be like them. Except I told myself another story, like, yeah, but it'll be different with me, right? Oh, I will be different because I'm the exception to this. And then I learned that, well, if I follow the same recipe, I'm going to bake the same cake. And so, yes, if I work really, really hard for the next 20 years, 80 hours a week, and
32:38 Joshua Fields Millburn? I climb the corporate ladder and I play all the right political games and go to all the right networking events and conferences and eventually maybe I'll be just as miserable as them. And man, that, that was scary. How about you listeners? How do you know whether it's time for a change in your life? Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which by the way, you can join for free, even if you don't subscribe to our private podcast. Okay, give me something pithy TK. How do you know whether it's time for a change in life?
33:11 Speaker 04 If there's no space to grow, you're in the wrong place. I remember a time in my life I was considering change and a buddy was nervous for me and he says, "Man, aren't you afraid?" And I said, "Dude, right here, right now, I am living the life that I'm afraid of. I'm ready for something different." We are evolving beings. We talked earlier about how change is the only constant. And so if we're in an environment that doesn't give us room to breathe and evolve, then we're in an environment that is self-stultifying. There is literally no room for you. And sometimes in our quest for passion, we overlook the fact that passion is the easiest thing to kill. "I'm passionate about writing."
33:51 Speaker 04 "Oh, are you? Okay, well, I want you to write an essay about the history of plumbing, and you also have to write this essay with that guy over there that you hate, and I need it by tomorrow 2:00 PM. You still love writing?" When the conditions around the passion are not optimized for growth and freedom and flexibility, even the passion itself dies. So if you can't be or do what you're passionate about or where you're passionate about right now, that's okay. Get into a space where you have room to grow and you'll grow into everything that you need.
34:23 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, and that's helpful for embracing the change that is inevitable anyway, which brings me to my pithy answer, which is people don't hate change. They hate discomfort and coercion. And so I make that distinction here because I think there are two types of change that people dislike. Most people really enjoy most changes. "Oh, I met a new friend." That's some variety. That's some novelty, right? "Or I just started this new project and it's so exciting, right? Oh yeah, that's a type of change I can get on." "I just picked up rock climbing. It's a change in my life and man, it's been wonderful." We were just, Savvy D and I were downstairs talking to Stephanie in the architects' office downstairs and she's like, "I just started ice skating again. I got these new..." Skates and that's a change for her, but that's a welcome change.
35:08 Joshua Fields Millburn? So we like those types of changes, right? We like surprises unless it's a surprise. We don't want that is coercive or so uncomfortable that it's a problem. So yeah, do you like surprises? Well, it depends on what you mean by surprise. If, if TK said, surprise, I just put a million dollars in your bank account. I'm going to love that surprise. But if Savvy D is like, surprise, I just took all the money out of your bank account. I'm not going to like that surprise, right? Because there's some manipulation behind this coercion on being forced into that type of change. But also the discomfort piece. We abhor extreme discomfort, right? We call it pain and I make that distinction between pain and discomfort.
35:50 Joshua Fields Millburn? We don't like the discomfort because it's unpleasant. But fortunately, that is the place from which we grow. The, the discomfort zone, the unpleasant zone. And so we can be thankful even for those, those unpleasant moments and those, those moments that feel like we're being dragged into change. There's too much uncertainty. I can sit with it and say, yeah, this too shall pass. All right, that's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first real quick for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. Malabama, this is your last episode.
36:31 Speaker 01 It sure is.
36:32 Joshua Fields Millburn? Holy moly.
36:33 Speaker 04 How do I say goodbye?
36:37 Speaker 01 No.
36:37 Speaker 04 To yesterday.
36:38 Speaker 01 Don't make me cry on page one, guys.
36:41 Joshua Fields Millburn? Well, on page three, we will get deep. We're going to go through an exit interview. She called it an exit interview. I love that because we've done this with, with past employees here at the minimalist, where we bring them on the show and we sort of talk about their experiences here. So we'll talk about that on page three. But first, Bama, just for this right here, right now segment. We wanted to do an episode about uncertainty because you're in this moment of uncertainty right now. Can you talk about what led to this decision? Because you're not just staying in California, you're also going to another state.
37:14 Speaker 01 Yeah. I think for me, uncertainty is always exciting. There is an optimism within me that's always been really deep rooted. And as soon as I get a little bit too comfortable and a little bit too in routine, it feels uncomfortable for me because it feels a little too predictable. And it's crazy to me that Los Angeles got to the point where it was a little bit too comfortable for me.
37:39 Joshua Fields Millburn? Wow.
37:40 Speaker 01 Because there's so much variety here. Anybody that wants to do something in LA, like that's, you've got your people, you'll find them. There's always constant FOMO of like, oh, I could go do this thing or experience this or, you know, consume this. And it is, it's exciting to know that I can go into a space where I don't have that anymore and see what I do with that time, see how it serves me and what comes up for me as far as what do I want to do next.
38:09 Joshua Fields Millburn? And I've seen you grow so much through the uncertainty and the discomfort. When you started here four years ago, this was a group of interns that we hired and we called them the Minterns. And when you started here, it was just to do some intern stuff around the studio and eventually you got promoted to studio manager and then over time you started managing events, including you managed a whole tour for us, the Everything Tour. And I got to see you grow in all these fascinating and interesting ways and stretch yourself. And so on page three, I have a bunch of questions I want to ask you about that growth and some of your fondest memories and some of the skills that you've built up since then. Eventually you became our podcast producer.
38:52 Joshua Fields Millburn? Believe it or not, we didn't hire Malabama to just be the narration on the podcast. We knew she had a beautiful voice when we hired her, but we needed help in other areas and she grew into that. And I'm sure it was uncomfortable at first because you had listened to this podcast for a while and now you were on the podcast with your beautiful voice. And so there was a lot of uncertainty. But I think that led to a lot of growth for you.
39:15 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely. That that that place of uncertainty is is just where the growth happens. Like, that is a necessary ingredient. If you want to grow and you want to improve and you want to learn, you have to be willing to be a little uncomfortable. You have to be OK with being the the least experienced person in the room. And I really love being an amateur. I love bringing bringing curiosity into something and and walking into a space and being like, what can I learn from everybody around me? And this was a space where I did that in ways I never thought I would. I was terrified of microphones, you guys. Like, that was a very, very scary thing for me to do. Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. The finality of a recording?
39:57 Speaker 01 All of my experience with performing in the arts was always done ephemerally, because I can leave it all there, and then people will forget it. They'll enjoy it while it's there, and then they move on.
40:07 Joshua Fields Millburn? You either came to the show or you didn't.
40:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. You either you either were there or you weren't, and you experienced it or you didn't. And that was OK, because that's a lot of what life is. But when we're doing something like this, and we're recording in a way that people can go back and listen over and over and over again, if I fumble a word or make a joke that just falls flat, I get to think about that every night before I go to sleep. My anxious brain, like, oh, my goodness. I was always worried about sounding unintelligent or goofy, or like, why did she bother opening her mouth? And so that fear, dealing with that, oh, gosh, that was a big thing for me. But this allowed me to get over that and grow and accept that, hey, congrats, you're human like the rest of us.
40:48 Joshua Fields Millburn? Yeah, yeah. And doing that in front of a large audience, millions of people now know who Malibu is.
40:54 Speaker 01 Thank goodness, no one knows what I look like. I can still go to the grocery store. It's wonderful.
40:59 Joshua Fields Millburn? That's pretty great. Well, I do. I have a lot I want to talk to you about on page three, including we have a nice little surprise for you.
41:04 Speaker 01 I'm scared.
41:06 Joshua Fields Millburn? There's that beautiful uncertainty that we're dealing with here. Also, real quick, just so you know, our next Sunday Symposium is this weekend. Bama, she was at her last one last month, so you won't see her there. If you got to see her in Santa Barbara, a bunch of people came up and gave her hugs and took pictures with her. And we also talked about this on the Friday afternoon minimalist Zoom we do with our patrons as well. And so we had a farewell there and then on page three, we'll have a fond farewell to Malibu. But if you want to see us live and in person, we just got a beautiful new venue in Orange County. It's this weekend. As of this recording, there are still a few tickets available. We just released some, so fewer than 50 at this point.
41:48 Joshua Fields Millburn? But if you want to come out there, Orange County this weekend, sundaysymposium.com is how you get your tickets. And they're free, y'all, so get them while you can. As soon as I announce it, they always sell out. So we'll see you there at Sunday Symposium this weekend. Malibu, what else you got for us?
42:04 Speaker 01 Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.
42:07 Speaker 05 Hey, minimalists. My name is Elizabeth Ellis and I'm tuning in from Houston, Texas. I am adding in a minimalist insight about your episode 487 on frustrations. For me, what really stuck out and resonated with me about this episode was what TK had to say about potential. And when he said, "Everything that you do is an under fulfillment of your potential to someone else."
42:43 Speaker 05 That really struck home because I don't think that we as a society talk enough about how potential can be a trap, as TK so eloquently put it.
43:02 Speaker 05 I am an only child. And I was the child my mom thought she was never going to be able to have. So from the beginning, there were a lot of expectations placed on me. And I love my parents. We have a good relationship. But one thing that frustrates me is that every so often, my mom will say things to me like, "Well, when are you going to go back and do X, Y, and Z?" Or, "I know that you're happy as a full-time content developer, but you know, it's never too late to go back to grad school and do law."
43:41 Speaker 05 I think that there is always that potential as humans to want to hope for the best for each other. But there's also a lot of value in just accepting who we are and also who other people are. So I just want to thank you so much for putting that episode out into the world, for all of your great insights. Just keep doing the awesome work that you're doing. And thank you so much.
44:12 Joshua Fields Millburn? Elizabeth, thank you so much for that thoughtful comment. TK, I love that. You say some smart things sometimes, TK. Everything you do is an under fulfillment of your potential to someone else. I want to unpack that coming up here on page two. But if anyone else has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, you can send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.
44:48 Joshua Fields Millburn? All right, that is the first 33% of episode 491. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition with Malabama and all of her tears. Joyous tears. So many tears. Oh, so good.
45:01 Speaker 04 Tears of an angel.
45:03 Joshua Fields Millburn? We also answered a bunch of questions like, "Am I hiding from my emotions if I let go of all expectations? How can I minimize my worries?" That the best version of me should be doing something different with my life? And how do I let go of my struggles around my own body image? Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the minimalist private podcast on Patreon. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff, and Spire Dave, Savvy D on the board, and one more time from Malibu Bama, y'all.
45:43 Speaker 01 Thank you, guys.
45:44 Joshua Fields Millburn? Much love to you, Malibu Bama.
45:45 Speaker 01 Likewise.
45:46 Joshua Fields Millburn? My name's Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all.
45:58 Speaker 01 Until next time.
45:59 Joshua Fields Millburn? We love you, Bama.
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