492 | Gimme a Hug

The Minimalists talk about navigating the nuances of human touch, sensory overload, pain, pleasure, unnecessary distractions, storage units, travel, decision fatigue, letting go of old boxes, and more! Discussed in this episode: As self-proclaimed "huggers," how do The Minimalists avoid overstepping personal-space boundaries with hugs and other forms of physical touch? (2:08) Talkaboutable: Hugs alleviate stress and may boost your immune system by 32%. (6:37) What role do your five senses play in amplifying your joy or magnifying your discontent? (24:58) Right Here, Right Now: Play the 30-Day Minimalism Game. (40:48) Listener tip: Embrace boredom and discomfort to live a simple life that is free of unnecessary distractions and overstimulation. (43:55) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, hello, everybody. Welcome to the Minimalist Podcast, where we discuss what it means to live a meaningful life with less. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn, and joining me here at Earthing Studios in beautiful West Hollywood, California, is my good friend TK Coleman. TK, give me a hug, give me a hug, give me a hug. Because coming up on this free, public minimal episode, a caller has a question about overstepping personal space boundaries with hugs and other forms of physical touch. And then we've got a question about how sensory clutter can magnify your discontent. That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip.

• 1:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can check out the maximal edition of episode 492. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon. The link is in the description. Now, when you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives. It's a full decade of archives, all the way back to the very first episode. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free, because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or comment for our show, give us a call, 406-219-7839, or email

• 2:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from CW.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Hello Minimalists, this is CW from Richmond, Virginia. Josh and Ryan, I was recently thinking about your many self declarations of being huggers. That led me to think more about the importance of touch and how fundamental it is in human development and communication, yet we seem to do even less of this than we have in the past. In general, American culture has been touch averse, being made even more so by decades of widespread, exposed objectification, misogyny, and sexual misconduct, not to mention the lingering effects of COVID's social distancing prescription, which, as a self-professed introvert, I found enormously appealing. With simple gestures like a touch on the shoulder or a pat on the back bringing about

• 2:57Speaker 02

  worries of overstepping boundaries or even legal and employment consequences, do you see a path to integrate touch back into our lives as a society? What can we learn from high-contact cultures where touch is a normal part of social interaction and interpersonal communication? TK, Mallory, Josh, Ryan, I appreciate everything that you bring to this life. Thank you for your time and your contributions.

• 3:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, first, it's worth noting that it sounds like CW is being hugged by nature right now.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, it sounds like he's on a farm.

• 3:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, yeah. And so, this is interesting because you and I are both introverts, and I thought this was a good place to start this episode, because we're talking about hugging, and I feel like there are three things that I feel I can talk about authoritatively. One is minimalism, two is writing, and three is hugging.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  That's a hilarious combination.

• 3:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's just through the practice of hugging. I can remember the very first time that Ryan and I, and I think that's why this question was addressed to both of us, our very first tour stop is when we became huggers, so self-proclaimed huggers as he says, and it is true, like, we were at this first tour stop in St. Petersburg, Florida, where Savvy D is from roughly, and we're at this coffee shop and eight people show up, and the first guy comes up and he just gives us a big bear hug, and Ryan looks over and he goes, "Well, I guess we're huggers now." And ever since then, it felt like it was part of our essence, part of the minimalist culture. Of course, I think he brings up some valid concerns, but when you first joined

• 4:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  the team, you were like, hey, I'm not a hugger by nature, but I'm willing to sort of assimilate to this culture. Am I reading that right?

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, respect the culture. So I'm, I am a tree hugger. I want to be clear on that. I am a tree hugger. But, uh, but a human hugger, it's funny because I grew up in a family of mostly men, you know, five guys and my mom. And before we went to bed every night, we hugged each other. We said, I love you. And so I'm very familiar with hugging and, and, and physical expressions of love. But I tend not to be that way with people that I haven't known for a long time. And so when I first did our Sunday Symposium or our live event together, and you guys had the hug line, that was new for me. That was different for me. And I wasn't put off by it. I didn't feel like, oh, I gotta flee

• 5:35Speaker 03

  and get out of here. This is a deal breaker. Um, and I respected the culture because people are literally getting into a line because they want to hug us. And I give out the hugs, but it's not something that I would initiate. And, and, and I've, I've, you and I've been together at places and we'll meet somebody new and you'll just go right, be like, give me a hug. And, and, you know, you respect people's space, you know, if someone's like, I don't want to hug, which hasn't happened to you, you know, um, you'll, you'll give them a hug and they'll hug you back. And I'm just more like, what's up, man? And I give them a pound, I dap them up and that's all good too. So it's just kind of a funny thing. And you know, we've even had, um, sometimes at Symposium, someone will come up and they'll go, hey, I don't need a picture or hug. I just want to say thank you guys

• 6:19Speaker 03

  for what you're doing. And I always felt like, my man, you know, when someone does that, like, I hear you, brother. I hear you.

• 6:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. I tell you, one of the things I really liked about beginning to hug is I'm not a total germaphobe, but to me, it does seem strangely more sanitary than shaking a bunch of people's hands. And I know during our Talk Aboutables segment, in fact, you know what? I'm going to pull that forward. We should do talk aboutables on page three here, but Savvy D found this really interesting study in 2014. Researchers from Carnegie Mellon University looked at the effects that hugs and other forms of affection can have on the immune system. Specifically, researchers wanted to know if the people who felt loved were less susceptible to the common cold, and they were. Thirty-two

• 7:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  percent of their immune boost came from the stress alleviating effects of hugging. And so, maybe it is not the hugs that, or maybe it is, maybe something around germ theory means like you're exposed in ways to these different germs that perhaps boost your immune system. I don't know, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a virologist, but it makes sense. And I will tell you that it tracks with my personal experience. The longest tour that Ryan and I did was 119 events in 100 cities, and we hugged, I know I did some back of the napkin math, and we've hugged over 70,000 people on tour. And during that entire tour, I didn't get sick throughout that tour. Now,

• 7:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  is that anecdotal? Of course it is. But you convinced me recently that sometimes anecdotes are at least one data point.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You know, anecdotes become a problem when we treat them like they do and should apply to everybody. My experience is the only experience that counts. But we can also make the reverse mistake, which is treating everyone else's experience besides mine is the only data that I should take seriously. And it's both. You're part of the universe, and so to understand yourself and your own experiences is to increase your understanding of the universe.

• 8:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And we hear that the eyes are the window to the souls when you're conversing with someone, and you maintain eye contact. If you do that too long, you look like an alien. If I just am not blinking and I'm staring at you the whole time, you're like, what is wrong with this psychopath, right? And I think the same thing is true with hugs. Hugs, for me, are a window to the soul. You know, when you hug someone, like when Dr. Zach Bush is here, or when Ryan Nicodemus is here, and they just give you a hug that is like... Ah, it's a full body sigh. And for a moment, especially like with Zach Bush, he'll hug you for a full minute. And there's this valley where it feels uncomfortable. It never feels bad or gross or creepy or imposing to me.

• 9:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But it's almost like he picks up on that. And I imagine his hug is probably tailor made the way that a really nice suit is tailor made. Where he can pick up like, oh, this is someone who wants the dap. This is someone who wants a brief hug. Or this is someone who is willing to go heart to heart with me, which is one of the things that we often try to do at our events. The problem with going heart to heart with hugs is most people aren't used to it. So you can bash heads with them. When I say a hug is, is the window to the soul, what I really mean is it seems to break down barriers really quickly. And I think there are a few reasons for that. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. One is it is breaking a pattern of sorts because we're so used to in our specific culture of shaking hands

• 9:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  or politely saying hello or giving someone a nod. We're not used to randomly hugging strangers. There's probably good reasons for that, but it breaks down a barrier and it automatically connects you in a way because it adds some variety. But it also adds, as CW talks about here, this physical touch element that we are so lacking in our culture now. And so maybe there's something about the physical touch and the breaking down of barriers that instantly makes you feel more comfortable around someone.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. You know, it can be, you know, human contact can be a great icebreaker and it can be a great way of communicating at a visceral level. Things that simply can't be stated at a verbal level. And if you took any relationship and you stripped it of the capacity for contact, the capacity for any kind of touch. If you went to any couple or any group of friends and said, all right, you can hang out, but under no circumstances, even if you're laughing really hard at a joke and you feel tempted to elbow your buddy like, ha, ha, ha, that was funny. No contact can be made. You dramatically change the possibilities of that relationship because even if they didn't intend to make contact, the potential, the capacity to make contact changes the energy around a relationship. But I have some things to say about.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  That aspect of the question that involves our cautiousness around it, our hesitancy towards it.

• 11:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, because you and I are both introverts. We've been social distancing way before it was cool to social distance.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You and I are like, yeah, give me my distance. So people often think because we're huggers, you must be extreme extroverts. And no, that's not necessarily the case. It's just when I'm around other people, I have found what is a shortcut for me to break down a barrier, but at the same time, respecting other people's personal boundaries. I never want to overstep that. And so there is a bit of a dance that's involved with that.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me, the way I navigate the dance is I almost always receive unless I have some really good indication of a need to be concerned. You, you come to me with a knife in your hand, like, can I have a hug? I might have to run. You know what I mean? But for the most part, you try to hug me, I will receive the hug. But when I'm initiating contact, I try to read the room and I default at giving you a pound or giving you a head nod or just saying what's up and resting assured that nothing is lacking. But you know, social media has done a couple of things that aren't entirely bad. I shouldn't have said that. I should say that are both good and challenging.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  One is it has amplified our capacity to have a voice and areas where we might have previously felt passionate about certain things or uncomfortable with certain things, but really couldn't be heard. We now have that ability to be heard. And so people have a greater capacity to say, hey, I don't like that or that's not my thing, or I hate this song, or I think that's a terrible idea. Whereas before you had to be famous to have an opinion or you had to have your letter picked by the editor to be one of the three that are featured in the newspaper or the magazine this month. But now we can all just get our opinions out there and get an audience to them. The second thing that social media has done is it has also allowed people who are not

• 13:10Speaker 03

  part of an interaction to express their opinions around it. So I can watch a video of you and Bex hugging and say, you know what, man? A man shouldn't be hugging his wife like that. Or a wife shouldn't be hugged. I can, I can see a video of Bex driving you around and be like, what's the problem? Why is she driving him around? What's the, you know? And it's like, the two of you may be okay with your situation, but as a third party, I have this newfound ability to observe what other people are doing and express my opinions about that, good or bad.

• 13:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And prescribe the correct way to do it.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Yes, and, and that gives us now a context where we can incentivize behavior in, in new ways. I can encourage people to do more of certain things by the way I praise them for it. I can make people more cautious about doing certain things, the way that I might criticize them for it. And so now, in today's world, when we go to hug, we have both more knowledge about the diversity of opinions concerning this sort of thing, which is good, and we have more awareness of the cautiousness that should be exercised for people that are not involved in our interactions. So, so we're not just engaging people for the people that are directly involved in

• 14:24Speaker 03

  the conversation or interaction, we're also engaging people for the other people that are watching and how they may be affected. And so, things have become a little bit more nuanced, a little bit more complex to navigate, and I think that's ultimately a good thing, because it just means we have to think more critically. We can't be as lazy as perhaps we could have been in the past.

• 14:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and by the way, just staying in the same pattern is a way, I don't know, even though that it's lazy, it's just the path of least resistance. And what I try to do sometimes is break that pattern. I had someone come up to me at a coffee shop yesterday in Ojai, and they're like, oh, hey, I love your work. And he goes up to shake my hand. And what I do is I don't force a hug on anyone. I open my arms and I say, oh, I'm a hugger. And He's like, oh, that's right. You guys are huggers. And then he goes in for like the biggest bear hug. And, and, and there was, you could see the, the pattern disruption sort of appearing on his features. And it was like this moment of, oh yeah, I'm safe here. And so, as you said,

• 15:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  you don't want to hug someone who, who might be threatening, or, or has a knife, or, or someone you're not comfortable with. Yeah. But a hug can totally break down any tension. Savvy, Deanne, I, we, we talked about this at Simple Haven, the retreat that we did. We were up, we have a storage locker. Shh, don't tell anyone. The Minimals have a storage locker that's just full of books. Um, this changes everything. Oh, no, wait, wait, bleep that out. Post-production, Peter. We're actually going to talk about storage lockers a bit later in the episode, I think, coming up on page two. But I do want to talk about, we were there at the storage locker facility to go pick up some books to give to people for our Sunday Symposium event that we were having in Santa Barbara. We give out free books and, at, at these events.

• 16:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, um, we were driving through there, and I must have been driving way too fast for whatever their speed limit was. I was probably doing 20 or 25. And I had no idea, there's no speed limit signs posted there. And this guy comes tearing through. He has like, serious hall monitor energy. And he gets to us, you could see, like, it's almost borderline threatening. And he gets off his little fast go-kart, and he, he goes, hey, do you remember the contract that you signed when you? I said, no, I don't, I, I actually didn't sign a contract. He goes, well, the contract you signed said the speed limit here is five miles an hour. And he's like, he's really angry, right? I said, hey, man, what's your name? And he said, it's Henry. Hey,

• 16:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  totally get it, man. My apologies. I didn't know we were going too fast. I'm a hugger. Can I get a hug? And he goes, Yeah. Because no hard feelings, right? And it's just this moment of like, you want to de-escalate something. Now, I didn't want to approach him aggressively. Hey, come here and give me a hug. But it is really about how we approach it. So do you have any sort of do's and don'ts in these scenarios? Obviously, don't force a hug, or a handshake, or a dap, or forced eye contact on to someone else. Those things can all come off as aggressive. But do you have any sort of do's and don'ts in your own life that other people may be able to tweeze out for their life?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, part of my philosophy is use your power to influence and inspire others for good. Recognizing that there are ways you can influence other people that are not technically forms of force, but you still want to avoid them because you have the ability to see how they might look up to you, or how they might allow themselves to be persuaded by you. And so when I hug people, I make it a point to not just honor the policy of I won't force a hug, but I'm also going to be attentive to you in a way so that I don't make you feel like this is something that you need to do. Because there are people in this world who are scared, who are shy, who are uncomfortable, who might perceive a disparity of power between you and them.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  And they will make the choice to do things that they regret, that they don't want to do because they felt like, well, I was in the moment and everybody else was doing it, and I didn't want to look stupid, and I don't want to be offensive, and I didn't do this or that. And so I try to be aware of things at that level as well, which is why my philosophy is if you initiate, I receive unless there's a basis for concern. When I initiate, if I don't have an already existing relationship with you where we have a shared understanding, then I go for the pow, I go for the handshake, or whatever seems to be fitting for the culture and how I'm observing people interacting there. And understanding that there are other ways to make contact that don't necessarily involve

• 19:01Speaker 03

  the literal physical ways that we associate with that. I would say another thing too is Developing a vocabulary for just other ways to break the ice. You know, what we can achieve with the hug, we can also achieve with saying someone's name. And by the way, that too is physical, right? We're creating sound vibrations and not just saying someone's name, but asking them a question about themselves. So when we, when we have our hug line and people come up to take a picture, there isn't time for a long conversation. It's only like five to 15 seconds sometimes, but even then, how much time do you need to say what's your name? Okay, Jeff, hey, welcome here. Thanks for being here today. Where are you coming from? Arizona. Aw, man. Thanks for making a drive. It's good to see you.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Like, that's making contact, that's seeing people and being aware of not just like the power of a hug, but what the power of a hug actually represents and gets at, that's making contact and having a broad vocabulary for the many ways you can do it.

• 19:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because a hug can be totally rote, just like a handshake can as well. We need to be careful of that because what makes the hug special is it's not part of a pattern. It's disrupting in a way. And I got a real gift from the social distancing period of 2020, 2021, because it forced me to get even more intentional around the hugging. So as I open my arms to invite someone and I'll say, I'm a hugger. Are you? And if they say no, I say, ah, that's no problem, right? Because it's not about you need to be a hugger or else, damn it, you better hug me. Well, that, that completely breaks down the intention of what I'm trying to do here. I'm just trying to connect with you and there are a bunch of ways to connect,

• 20:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  whether that is through physical touch or it is through a hug, it is through a handshake, it's through asking someone a question. Ultimately, all of these are, as you just said, they're forms of saying, I see you. I'm here witnessing you right now. And ultimately, that's what love is. I can see you for who you are, where you are, whether you're a hugger or not. And it's been a great way for me to maybe boost my immune system potentially, at least according to Carnegie Mellon University. Maybe that's helpful there, but that's not the reason that I do it. The reason I do it is because it breaks down those barriers and it gets to that human to human interaction. It removes the roteness of the everyday patterns. That we've developed.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. Another important principle for me is it is incredibly difficult to love people when you are afraid of them. Love is what happens in the absence of fear. It takes courage to connect with people and to make contact with them. It takes the willingness to to take risk and to be vulnerable. And so I would say, especially with respect to this question and any concerns about contemporary culture and and and the the issues that we may have about touch and so on is, at the end of the day, don't be afraid of people. Be respectful of people, be aware of them, be considerate of them, be compassionate towards them, be discerning in how you interact with them.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  Be flexible in the direction you go, but do not be afraid of them. It's important to not bring a spirit of antagonism and defensiveness into your interactions with people where you're going around like, well, back in the 50s, you know, we could have hugged everybody, but now in this world, you know, you look somebody in the eye, you you give them a handshake and now they're all angry at you. It's like, you don't want to have that sort of antagonistic view of the world. You want to say, hey, look, no matter how people did things back in the 50s, I don't live back in the 50s, I live at this time. And I'm going to be courageous enough to look people in the eye and say hello. And I'm going to trust my ability to read the room and be able to react and respond to people

• 22:42Speaker 03

  in a way that is appropriate for the context and still compassionate, because I can be creative enough to love in so many ways that I do not feel constrained if you tell me that I got to keep my freaking hands to myself.

• 22:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's right. Yeah. And because what you're doing is you're trying to find the way to connect with someone.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And if you found a way that actually further disconnects you from them, because it turns them off in some way, and I'm not talking about turning you off sexually, but it it feels like it's one of those magnets when you hold against a magnet and it repels the other magnet, right?

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  A hug can do that if we're not intentional about it. So for me, hugging has been a great way to be more intentional with my greetings and interactions. It is not just a new rote way to be slightly different. CW, I'd love to send you a copy of The Minimalist's second book. It's called Everything That Remains. It has a beautiful new cover, by the way. We did a 10th anniversary edition last year, and then we have a final cover right now. It's my favorite cover, and it's also my favorite book that we've ever written. Everything That Remains, it's a memoir by The Minimalist, but In there, we talk about all the hugs that we handed out in the early years when we were on tour and we were just trying to figure out navigating the, the social nuances of what was there in front of us. And man, what a great experience. And it was never creepy.

• 23:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It was never inappropriate because we were always intentional with the person who was there in front of us. So CW, I'd love to send you a copy of everything that remains. If you want the book, book, happy to send you that with the beautiful new cover or the ebook or the audiobook version of that. Now, before we get back to our callers TK, it is time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chats question of the week, which we attempt to answer with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free. If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start

• 24:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  your week off with a dose of simplicity. Speaking of ads TK, on page three today, I've got the sucky ad segment. I, I'm, I was infuriated and we're going to get back to that because it has nothing to do with the question of the week right now. The question of the week is what role do your five senses play in amplifying your joy or magnifying your discontent? Now, before we get to our pithy answers TK, let's hear what some of our listeners had to say. Cheryl said, "I'm a highly sensitive person, so my senses are easily triggered, which is extremely bothersome. I hear and smell things no one

• 25:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  else does. This is a huge issue, living in New York City. I'm blinded by lights others seem fine with. I can't even go out after dark because of headlights, storefronts, and streetlights. Every day is a literal assault on my senses, which adds to my isolation, anxiety, and depression."

• 25:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So my wife and daughter both have, I think it's called SPD, sensory processing disorder, right, is what they've been diagnosed with, right? But it's exactly what Cheryl's talking about. There is, there's, there's something, they're more stimulated by what's going on around them. Now, I have part of this as well. When I go into a hotel room and they've got like a Glade plugin somewhere, man, it really messes with me. I always say it smells like panic in here because my body does start to panic. And so more stimuli does, well, upset my senses as well. And so being overly sensitive, I'm wondering here, if you're living in a city that is so over-stimulating,

• 26:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  maybe it makes sense to remove yourself from, from the stimuli. Now, Brittany had this to say, which I think pairs perfectly with what Cheryl was saying. She says, "When I go into my bedroom, shut the door and close the blinds, I create a space that is just for me. When I burn incense and switch my lights to a color that suits my mood, I create a vibe that allows me to go within and feel more connected to myself. I'm so grateful for these simple things that elevate my experience and allow me to connect in ways I otherwise wouldn't be able to." Now, Brittany has found a way to sort of control the controllables, and you could do this in New York City. I wonder if this might help Cheryl.

• 27:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe she would benefit from moving out of NYC altogether if possible, or if she has to stay in NYC, creating her own sanctuary that sort of dulls the, the noise of the external world.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. Sometimes when we speak of controlling the controllables and focusing on what is within your locus of influence, it sounds like we're giving people a consolation prize. "Hey, you know what? Sorry, you know, your life does seem to stink, but just focus on what you can control and eat crap the rest of the way. That's what we all have to do." But there's more to it than that. Sometimes when you take a critical and creative look at what you can control, you may find the ability to optimize in a manner that frees up- Resources so that you can more effectively and helpfully engage the things that you can't control. One of the themes I see over and over again in my clutter counseling sessions is people

• 28:07Speaker 03

  have everyday difficulties that just seem to be non-negotiable and it's just killing them. But when we look at what they can control, there are a number of inefficiencies and lack of boundaries that are just causing their energy to just be unnecessarily depleted so that by the time they get to the everyday difficulties they can't control, they're totally gassed out, they're completely used up, and they have no access to their own intelligence. And by focusing on what they can control, not as a way of ignoring the uncontrollable, but as a way of optimizing for their strengths, we're able to get them to a place where they're so well managed and they have such good boundaries, that now they can go out to those things they can't control and say, oh,

• 28:51Speaker 03

  I actually have this. It's sort of like, you know, one day you're doing really good, you're walking along the street, someone steps on your toe and they go, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And you go, hey, man, it's okay. We all make mistakes. But if you're having the worst day of your life, and you're angry, you just got fired from your job, you're stressed about everything, you just got into an argument with your spouse, someone steps on your toe, hey, watch where you're going, why does no one watch where they're going? Now we have a whole world epidemic of people not caring about other people that you're wrestling with. Same situation, your ability to deal with it is differs, not because of the element that you can't control, but because of how well you're taken care of in other areas.

• 29:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think there's something here. In fact, my pithy answer, I wrote down three maxims here, but one of them is, pain and pleasure are determined by the stories we tell ourselves. And we know this is true, right? Because there are some people who experience, you know, there's a BDSM and it's like painful experience that people get pleasure from, right? But the opposite of that can also be true. The thing that is super pleasurable to like Ryan Nicodemus loves eating oysters, it's such a pleasurable experience, but it's forcing me to eat oysters, oysters would be like a painful experience. I don't enjoy it. And I didn't get to choose that I have that particular taste, or I have a distaste for oysters, and he didn't To choose that that was his taste either.

• 30:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But something about the story that we tell ourselves with many of the pains that we experience. In fact, we know that like there are everyday pains. Professor Sean's in here today and he goes to CrossFit in the mornings. And there's a lot of pain in there, but you're not pathologizing that pain like, oh, this must be awful. But in a different context, if you weren't doing CrossFit and all of a sudden you woke up with that same level of of pain that you get from lifting the weights, you would think you had some horrible disease because the story you're telling yourself is this is incongruent with the way that I've experienced life up until now. And so that level of of pain also is promoted by the story. And the story can be like, yes, this is the pain that is required to grow.

• 30:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Or this is a pain that is mysterious. I need to figure out what it is. But I've also learned through my own exploration of pain with autoimmune diseases. But I also have been dealing with a bum shoulder for over a year now. And I've learned a lot about pain and and the opposite of pain is not pleasure. It's just being pain free. You can be in pain and experience pleasure at the same time. You know, you can break your foot and eat ice cream. And there's one thing that's painful, the other thing is pleasurable. The ice cream doesn't necessarily cancel out the broken foot. Although sometimes the broken foot can cancel out the pleasure of the ice cream. But being pain free is really the is the objective here. It's not, and I think that's one of the the problems with hedonism. We did an episode on hedonism recently.

• 31:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  One of the problems with hedonism is it it supposes that we can sort of paper mache over our pain with more pleasure. But that's not the way that pain works. And later I want to talk to you a bit about gratitude and and suffering and and their inverse relationship. Or maybe they have a connected relationship as a matter of fact. So so something about about pain and the way that we perceive pain and turns into suffering. One of the ways to maybe extinguish that is with gratitude. Now, I want to get your thoughts on that here in a moment. But let's listen to Amanda. She had this really great prompt that I wanted to run by you. Amanda said, five, four, three, two, one. There's a mindfulness skill that prompts people to find five things they see,

• 32:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  four things they feel, three things they hear, two things they smell, and one thing they taste.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Hey, I like that.

• 32:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I do too, and it's not just because I have OCD and five, four, three, two, one, sounds like the best countdown.

• 32:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Whenever I look at what the clock and it says like three, two, one, I'm like, oh, it's the perfect time right now. Uh, it'll say 12:34, I'm like, yes.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  And then at 3:22, you're like, my day is ruined.

• 32:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, why does time keep moving on? Let's try this out right now because this is fascinating. She said, I think it's important to practice this as often as possible to amplify connection to one's experience. And that brings up a good point, we're so disconnected from our everyday experience. We talked a moment ago about controlling the controllables, but it's also the effect of controllables. Like technically, Professor Sean could go over to the light switch in here and he has control over the light switch. He could go flick it on and off, on and off, on and off. But guys, I'm just controlling the controllables. But it's actually getting in the way. When you, we talk about controlling the control, controllables, it's about, okay, what, what is the outcome that I want here, right? I want to control the controllables that will help me proceed toward that outcome.

• 33:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So maybe we can, we can try this prompt right now. What are five things that you see in this moment?

• 33:43Speaker 03

  I see shades of blue.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  I had to.

• 33:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wait, I don't see any blue in here. We're in a rather monochrome room right now.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  Red roses too.

• 34:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You sound like Tom Waits.

• 34:05Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so great. What do I see? Five things I see?

• 34:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:10Speaker 03

  I see Professor Sean smile.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  I see your coffee mug. And that way that you put the lid on, which is something I've come to know is characteristic of you because there's kind of like a ritual you have for how you drink your coffee in that way. I see the light coming through the window that's right across from me. Even though that first layer of shade is pulled down, I see that light coming through it. And I see the trees behind it and like that glimpse of the mountains in the background, which I probably wouldn't have noticed had I done this exercise. And it makes me feel that appreciation for being able to see that stuff, living in a place where I can see it. And I see out of my peripheral vision, what I always see is that bright, running red clock.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  You know, the, uh, the hell horror movie color.

• 35:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So you're going over on time.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And so you can go through this exercise, four things you feel like my feet are on a earthing mat right now here in the studio. I also feel the desk and there's this, this padding in front of me that there's a texture there that I wouldn't have otherwise appreciated, even though my hands on it all the time. But as soon as I pay attention to it, I can appreciate it even more. What else do I feel? Well, I have a headphone in my left ear only, so I feel that, right? I also, I also, we'll get to the, the hearing thing in a moment, but I can hear myself speaking as well. But I also feel it. I feel the reverberation. So all these senses are connected in a way, right? And then I'm barefoot and I have a little bit of sciatic pain today, so I feel that as well.

• 35:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so it's not just the pleasurable things, it's the painful things as well. And then mindfulness helps out with all of that. Three things we hear, I hear TK's voice when he's speaking, I hear my own voice. And then I hear like the most subtle, I'm really, really quiet.

• 36:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's some noise down the hallway. And sometimes it gets really loud. There's, uh, we're in a building on the fourth floor, but on the second floor, there's a music school and kids come in here sometimes and they just start screaming in the hallway as soon as the music school lets out and you can often hear that for sure, right? But instead of getting mad at it, I can just witness it, right? I don't have to, by the way, all of these things, I'm not saying that they're good or bad. It's just the things that I'm witnessing, right? And the two things I smell, I still smell my coffee a little bit. I was just drinking it, right?

• 36:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What else do I smell? That's a little BO. That's all right.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  What I love about this is it gets you back into your body and it grounds you in the here and now. Because you can be like physically situated at a point in space and time, but you can be lost in thought, worrying about the future, you know, regretting the past, being anxious about what's gonna happen next. And then someone says, "Hey TK, what do you see in front of you? Hey Josh, what do you smell? You have to come back to the here and now in order to do that. And so it's a great way to be present.

• 37:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Totally agree. How about you listeners? What role do your five senses play in amplifying your joy or magnifying your discontent? Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which by the way, you can join for free even if you don't subscribe to our private podcast. All right, give me something pithy TK. What role do your five senses play in amplifying your joy or magnifying your discontent?

• 37:38Speaker 03

  The sacred things through what we sense. One of my favorite Alan Watts quotes is, "The infinite is not standoffish. It has plenty of room to include the finite." I also believe that true spirituality is incarnational. I think a great deal of both religious and cultural practice in the West is heavily influenced by a dualistic mode of thought that says, "Matter evil, spirit good." And so we look at enlightenment, spiritual life, advancement, evolution, as sort of like transcending the body, where I think it's really about harmonizing with the body, reclaiming the material, redeeming the material.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  And so for me, the senses are not something to renounce, to escape from, to minimize, but they are the means through which I interface with the world and they are what makes all the beautiful intangible things matter. So, yes, it is true that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. Yes, it is true that your attitude determines your altitude, that you're made by your consciousness, not your circumstances. However, I cannot love you, I cannot respect you, I cannot be generous towards you without making use of my hands, my feet, my eyes, my ears. My mouth, I've got to say what I feel to you. I've got to communicate it through touch or the refraining from touching. I have to communicate it by the way that I use my ears, by the body language, the way that I stand,

• 39:03Speaker 03

  the way that I make eye contact. So the body is essential. Every good thing that happens in the world, it happens through bodies.

• 39:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, Jed McKenna talks about how he's really grateful for his lips because without them, he couldn't eat soup. And like, it's a weird way to think about it, but like, yeah. And without my hands, I couldn't use the spoon to scoop the soup into my mouth. And then it's just these things that we take for granted. And doing one of those five, four, three, two, one exercises, it's no longer taking it for granted. It's taking that which has been taken for granted and putting it there in front of you and allowing you to be grateful for it, or at least experience it in a way that you may not typically experience it. Which brings me to my pithy answer, which is simply this. Clinging to pleasure is the path to pain. Quite often, if something feels good and what do I want?

• 39:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I want more of it. This is what consumerism is, by the way, right? Like, we buy the thing and that felt good for a little while, but then the sheen wears off. The good feeling wears off, the emotion wears off, the high wears off. And so I'm clinging to that. I need that feeling back. I want it right now. And if I don't have it, I'm incomplete. Or you know what? I'm miserable. But I'm miserable simply because I'm clinging to that need for pleasure. It is that very need for pleasure that is bringing me more pain because of the story I'm telling myself. If I can't get back to that baseline of pleasure, then I am in pain. I am suffering. But of course, if I just let go of the need for pleasure, it'll show up.

• 40:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Pleasure is a great byproduct, but the more I chase it, the faster it runs away from me. All right, that's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers over there, Savvy D does. But first, real quick for right here, right now, here are two things that are going on in the life of the minimalist. Number one is a brand new month is right around the corner. We have a little something we call the 30 day minimalism game. If you want to let Let go of some stuff, you just partner up with a friend or a family member or coworker. You can download our free minimalism game calendar over at theminimalists.com/game. Over there, you can see all of the so-called rules. They're just boundaries that we help you set up so you can let go in a more fun way. For me, decluttering is kind of boring and I don't like doing it. In fact, I was at the gym yesterday.

• 41:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I was talking to the lady at the front desk. She was asking me about letting go and she's like, "I just have this garage full of stuff." And it's so hard for me to let go of. I said, "Well, yeah, it's boring. Decluttering is boring." She said, "What would you do?" I said, "I'd play something called the 30-day minimalism game." She's like, "A game? Tell me more about that." I said, "Well, yeah, you just find a friend or a family member or coworker. And at the beginning of the month, you each get rid of one item on the first day, because no one knows where to start and they're overwhelmed. But anyone can find one thing they don't want to hold on to anymore. Look at all those old coffee mugs you have. Are you going to use all of them? What about those boxes in the garage? You don't even remember what's in the boxes anymore because you haven't opened them since the last time that you moved? Okay, maybe I just open up one of those boxes and find one thing in there that I can let go of.

• 42:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so the rules are simple. You partner up with someone and first day of the month, you get rid of one item. Second day of the month, two items. Third day of the month, three items. So it gets progressively more difficult as the month progresses. And by day 15, it's like, "Uh-oh, I have to get rid of 15 items today." And day 20, I have to get rid of 21 or 20 items today and 21 tomorrow. Whoever goes the longest wins. So you can bet whatever you want. Bet a nice meal or maybe someone's going to pay for massages afterward after all this letting go. And whoever goes the longest wins. If you both make it to the end of the month, then you've both won because you've gotten rid of about 500 items and that's an amazing start. We've had people who have played this game for months. But you can find all the details and you can share your photos as well online. Theminimalists.com/game for the free calendar that you can download.

• 42:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Also, our five-week decluttering course. It's called Simplify Everything, opens for 72 hours very soon. Make sure you're on our email list for that. It's going to help you declutter everything in your life, starting with the physical clutter, but it's five different weeks. So we also talk about the digital clutter, the calendar clutter, the financial clutter, and the relationship clutter.

• 43:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Relationship clutter in your life. It's five weeks, 17 video lessons, 45 clutter problem areas, 135 decluttering solutions, and a 30-page workbook. Plus, you have student forums. That's why we do the class where everyone does it together, because you get to interact with everyone else who is letting go at the same time. You can watch the trailer and enroll for the course if you'd like at simplifyeverything.xyz. Not dot com, because this is the end of clutter. And XYZ is the end of the alphabet. So, end of clutter for you. Simplifyeverything.xyz. We're going to open up the course for 72 hours. We are only offering, this is the first time we're offering this all year, and this is the first opportunity to join in there. Simplifyeverything.xyz.

• 43:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And now here is a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 43:58Speaker 04

  Hello, minimalists. This is Patreon subscriber Sean. For a number of years of my life, I took on an overabundance of activities. Long work hours, volunteering in the community, hobbies, and other activities to fill most days from very early morning until late at night to prevent downtime where I'd think about certain aspects of my life. I'd move across the country for a job, create a downtime while living in a city, and ultimately a job that I felt I didn't belong. Not having the full schedule I once had, I turned to hedonistic pursuits to distract my thoughts. While not entirely self-destructive, they came at a great personal cost. Couple of years ago, I ran across Michael Easter when he was on

• 44:42Speaker 04

  a podcast discussing his book, The Comfort Crisis. What I found so intriguing about the discussion was how we as humans find ourselves so uncomfortable with boredom, yet it's something that we need periodically in our lives. The same holds true for discomfort. When I ran across Michael's discussions, I had already started down the path of minimalism and simplifying my life. I had begun purging digital clutter and was slowly starting to tackle the physical clutter that him had accumulated from years of needless and emotional spending. I stopped wearing my smartwatch, eventually opting for a mechanical hand-wound analog to remove distractions associated with a smartwatch, ultimately selling it in short order.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  With no intention to wear one again, JFM Discussions discusses these topics with Michael in episode 422, The Comfort Crisis. I encourage others to visit or revisit this episode as it is incredibly enlightening and touches on a topic that has become of great importance in my life, living a simpler life free of unnecessary distractions and overstimulation. Thank you.

• 45:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sean, thank you so much for that thoughtful comment. It makes me think TK, because he's really talking about embracing boredom and discomfort helps him live a simpler life that's free of all of these unnecessary distractions. That's an important word here because we're always going to have distractions, but many of them are so unnecessary and they're like self-inflicted wounds in a way. And he also talks about the overstimulation piece of that as well. But it made me realize, I just wrote this down as I heard Sean talking, it made me realize that boredom is uncomfortable for adrenaline junkies. And we're all adrenaline junkies now.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because of the overstimulation, right? And so it's more, more, more. It's the consumerism thing. And it's no wonder peace doesn't feel like peace when we're so addicted to the rush of all of the excess stimuli. Do you have any thoughts on that?

• 46:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, one of the challenges of growth is that progress often feels like regress in the beginning because new forms of fun, new forms of pleasure, and new forms of knowledge require a waiting period where you have to go for a while feeling like you don't know, feeling like you're a little confused, feeling like you're a little uncomfortable. And so it's become somewhat of a lost art, but a very important spiritual practice for today, that we learn how to be present to the boredom so that we can create the space for new adventures in our lives. Otherwise, we'll just go from one easy, quick fix to the other and never grow.

• 47:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, I think that's spot on. If anyone else has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, you can send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three, but I have to pander to late so bad right now. So let's go take a quick pander to late break. We'll be right back.

• 47:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's the first 29% of episode 492. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, "What's an appropriate amount of time to keep a storage unit while I travel?" "How do you handle decision fatigue when you're decluttering in a brand-new home?" "Why am I struggling to let go of all these old boxes and packages and manuals?" Plus, a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. By the way, there's a seven-day free trial if you want to check out some of the archives or this entire episode. Try it for seven days for free. The link is in the description. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing

• 48:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff, Inspire Dave, Savvy D. on the board, and Professor Sean on the couch over here, and the rest of our team. My name's Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.