Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People

Interdisciplinary artist Derek Fordjour is one of Trevor’s Favorite People. The two discuss creating art, African diaspora, and assigning value within society. Above all else, they agree humans need storytelling.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it. Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info on travel days or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and over, and make sure to check responses.

• 0:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, booked forever, forever.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Start your morning with the $6.00 McRiddle's Extra Value Meal, featuring your choice of a sausage, egg and cheese McRiddle's or bacon, egg and cheese McRiddle's, plus crispy hash browns and a small premium roast coffee. Sweet, savory, crispy, and caffeinated, it's everything your morning ordered, all for just $6.00. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing at participating McDonald's.

• 1:12Trevor Noah?

  How do you know when something's finished?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  I think there's a creeping feeling that you get where you're like, I'm not making this better. You know, it's kind of like when you're in a barber's chair, like the longer you're there.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  This guy can only remove hair.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 1:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  You shouldn't be there too long. There's like a moment that if you're like, it's been a while. You want to look for a mirror.

• 1:38Trevor Noah?

  So it's diminishing returns in a way.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, like there's a point where you're like, if I stay in this, it's not gonna get better. I'm sure you like write a joke and you're like, that's too many words. I did too much to get there. You know, it's enough, leave it. There's like an instinct, right?

• 1:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, mine, I think, is more, do I still feel this way?

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the same thing.

• 2:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's more mine.

• 2:06Trevor Noah?

  My guest on today's podcast is someone I'm lucky enough to call a friend and a human being who has achieved one of the hardest things in the world, which is becoming extremely successful and genre-defying in many ways as an artist.

• 2:25Trevor Noah?

  I always think about how crazy it must have been back in the days to be friends with someone like Picasso or Michelangelo or any of those people. And I am not comparing artists, but for me, Derek Fordjour is the modern equivalent. He's an artist, he's a painter, a sculptor, one of my favorite people who's able to bring history, identity, and joy to life in a way that stops you in your tracks.

• 2:54Trevor Noah?

  We've known each other for a while now, and I've always been inspired by how deeply he sees the world and how beautifully he translates that onto the canvas.

• 3:03Trevor Noah?

  And so in this conversation, we get into how art messes with value in the best way, why all work is kind of a scam, and what it means to create beauty even when no one's buying it. Yet. I think you're really gonna walk away from this conversation with your mind spinning, and hopefully your heart full, just like I always do.

• 3:28Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 3:41Trevor Noah?

  Rolling?

• 3:43Trevor Noah?

  All right. Derek Fordjour, what's going on, man?

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Hello, Trevor.

• 3:46Trevor Noah?

  How are you gonna go and get a blocked nose when we're doing a podcast?

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Bro, you blow me up immediately about the nose.

• 3:52Trevor Noah?

  No, because you know why.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Self-conscious about.

• 3:54Trevor Noah?

  No, but okay, let me explain. First of all, I apologize. I didn't know you were self-conscious about it. The reason I have to call it out is because some people will be hearing your voice for the first time.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 4:02Trevor Noah?

  Some people.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 4:03Trevor Noah?

  And then they'll think that that's how you speak.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a very different voice than what I have today.

• 4:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Right?

• 4:10Trevor Noah?

  So it's similar, but it's, I know you're nasally today.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:13Trevor Noah?

  But you say you're not sick.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Well, I can't be sick. I can't, I'm an American.

• 4:17Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you, I I worked at The Daily Show, I was in the office for eight years, I hosted for seven years.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:23Trevor Noah?

  No one ever admitted being sick.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  The entire time.

• 4:26Trevor Noah?

  No one.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  But wouldn't you say that's also like entertainment culture, like nobody wants to like, like, first of all, you're the boss, to each other.

• 4:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Do they admit it?

• 4:37Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's a good question, actually.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  I'm just saying.

• 4:40Trevor Noah?

  I never considered my position of.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  No, you don't, because you're such a man of the people. You just don't.

• 4:44Trevor Noah?

  Actually, really never considered that.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't think about that.

• 4:46Trevor Noah?

  No, you know what it also is, in South, it's because in South Africa, we don't really have that.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  What, like, oh, the culture of?

• 4:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, in a, I think in a, in America, more than most places, maybe in Europe, actually, to a certain extent, the hierarchy in an office place is respected in a different way.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 5:02Trevor Noah?

  So.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 5:03Trevor Noah?

  Managers don't realize that rooms move differently when they step into them.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 5:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:08Trevor Noah?

  I would argue in most parts of, at least South Africa, I know for sure. Yeah, there's like a boss and a manager, but a lot of the time, that person just came from where you were.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 5:19Trevor Noah?

  So there's a certain level of familiarity.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's true. I mean, even in Ghana, I mean, there's this wonderful thing you observe right away where the boss and his subordinate may hold hands, like sa- same sex.

• 5:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  And it's a way of like, let me have a chat with you. And that's totally normal to hold hands. In fact, by the time we leave, my brother and I hold hands while we're walking around. See, you're trying not to smile, because you've been.

• 5:46Trevor Noah?

  I'm not trying not to smile. I'm smiling. The smile was just growing.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, the whole thing. This is, it's completely normal.

• 5:54Trevor Noah?

  No, no, okay, I'll tell you why I was smiling.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Why?

• 5:56Trevor Noah?

  Because I was thinking, because I'll start by saying this, I'm not ignorant to the idea of men holding hands.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  You know this, yeah.

• 6:02Trevor Noah?

  Because in South Africa.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  It's the same.

• 6:03Trevor Noah?

  Same thing. So depending on where you're from.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:06Trevor Noah?

  People would hold hands, people, I remember in the Middle East, um, men hold pinky fingers. I don't know what they do in Ghana, do they hold full hands?

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Smile, but yeah.

• 6:13Trevor Noah?

  No, they hold pinky fingers, it's quite normal, you like lock pinkies, two friends, men.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  It's sweet.

• 6:18Trevor Noah?

  And you walk, yeah, and you walk, you walk, uh, hand in hand.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  It's just a pinky, that's.

• 6:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you see, everyone, everyone thinks one part of it is weird.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:25Trevor Noah?

  What I found weird in that situation is, there's something almost more threatening.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:31Trevor Noah?

  In your boss calling you and giving you the hand, hey, let me, uh, hold my hand, let me, let me talk to you for a second.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  That is scarier.

• 6:40Trevor Noah?

  The idea that somebody's gonna berate me or chastise me while holding my hand.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  It's true. That could be, it could be threatening.

• 6:47Trevor Noah?

  But this is, this is the trauma I think I have from being a kid. The worst beating you would get is where your parent was holding on to you.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, cuz you can't run.

• 6:55Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you can't run.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  You know about this. I haven't talked about this in years.

• 6:59Trevor Noah?

  Talked about what?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Being beaten.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Like, like affectionately, like it's.

• 7:05Trevor Noah?

  Like affectionately.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Well, we're speaking about it affectionately, like it's just normal. We, we joke about the objects with which I was, I mean, I don't, I didn't wanna talk.

• 7:14Trevor Noah?

  What's the craziest object you got hit with?

• 7:15Speaker 02

  The craziest object was probably skeletons and pots.

• 7:19Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Cuz it's a kitchen.

• 7:21Trevor Noah?

  Thrown or hit?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Both, man.

• 7:23Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  I mean, it was, it was me, though. I have two brothers. They were great. She never, I mean, they didn't require anything.

• 7:29Trevor Noah?

  You, you victim blaming. Don't blame yourself. Can I tell you? I'm not for it.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:34Trevor Noah?

  But it was quite, it was quite normal.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  It was.

• 7:37Trevor Noah?

  I never got hit with a pot or a pan.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:40Trevor Noah?

  Uh, cuz my mom didn't cook much, so I think that's probably why I was saved from that environment.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:46Trevor Noah?

  Um, yeah, but I got, I got hit with.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  You get hit with?

• 7:48Trevor Noah?

  Oh, everything.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Really?

• 7:49Trevor Noah?

  High heels. High heels were terrible.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  I'm not laughing either. There's nothing funny about that.

• 7:55Trevor Noah?

  Hit with high heels, uh, very few belts, I guess, cuz my mom didn't really wear belts.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  You've thought about this, too?

• 8:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I mean, I think, oh, okay, I'll tell you why. So now that I am at an age where I think my mom accepts that I'm an adult, and I feel like I'm an adult.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  And you're the, the same plane with her.

• 8:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  You could both reflect.

• 8:16Trevor Noah?

  I've now decided to like, open up the statute of limitations.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:21Trevor Noah?

  And say to her.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:23Trevor Noah?

  Yo, lady, what were you doing?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Did you try, did you soft try something to see if she was ready? Cuz you have to.

• 8:28Trevor Noah?

  I think every few years I probably said something to her.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Okay. See, that's still respect.

• 8:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, maybe in my twenties, maybe in my twenties, I said to her, oh, man, the beatings you used to give me. And the way she'd react would be like, you want another one?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  That sounds exactly, that's my mom, right.

• 8:45Trevor Noah?

  Where, where are both of your parents from?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Both of my parents are from Ghana.

• 8:49Trevor Noah?

  You're first generation, right?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  First generation, same tribe. So both of my parents are Asante. So, you know, we say Ashanti, but in Ghana we say Asante, but hundred percent. So I remember my dad telling me in the, oh, I don't know, I must have been in kindergarten. He goes, I want to tell you something. He sat me down and he goes,

• 9:10Speaker 02

  if the entire Ashanti kingdom perishes tomorrow, but you're alive, then the Ashanti kingdom lives.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  And that's the way he explained where we were from and what it meant to be part of a tribe. That, that the entire kingdom lives in you. And, and mind you, I've been like Tennessee, having this conversation as like a kindergartner. But that was like the early framing of like, what's in our blood, you know?

• 9:42Trevor Noah?

  Sounds like the opening of a Black Panther movie.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 9:46Trevor Noah?

  It really does.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  The trilogy.

• 9:48Trevor Noah?

  Scene opens up.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:49Trevor Noah?

  Young Derek, little, little black kid in Tennessee.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  That's right, a hundred percent.

• 9:54Trevor Noah?

  Camera comes into like the little house, where did you live, a house, I'm assuming?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  In Memphis, in Memphis. It was a little apartment, actually.

• 9:59Trevor Noah?

  A little apartment, yeah, even better. Marvel loves apartments.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Could we start with the kid?

• 10:03Trevor Noah?

  Superheroes love apartments.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  It has to be an apartment.

• 10:05Trevor Noah?

  Apartments are better than houses for superheroes.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  But it has to start with the kid being bullied, being called African booty scratcher.

• 10:12Trevor Noah?

  Were you called that?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Were you not?

• 10:15Trevor Noah?

  I was in Africa. Who's gonna call me that?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  That's true. This is true. This is, that would be awkward.

• 10:21Trevor Noah?

  Who was gonna say to me?

• 10:22Speaker 02

  That would be weird.

• 10:22Trevor Noah?

  Ah, Trevor, you're African booty scratcher. I'm like, yeah, we're all African booty scratchers. What do you mean?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  No, it's true.

• 10:27Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you got called African booty scratcher?

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Totally. It's a thing.

• 10:31Trevor Noah?

  This was the full sentence?

• 10:32Speaker 02

  My son was called the same thing.

• 10:34Trevor Noah?

  No, you're lying.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  I was shocked, I'm telling you.

• 10:37Trevor Noah?

  This is now.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Now? I was like, what? I was like, are you, I thought he was spooking me. It's like, no, it's a thing. Well, it's a funny thing because...

• 10:46Trevor Noah?

  Okay, wait, wait, let's, let's take it back. So? Your parents moved from Ghana.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:50Trevor Noah?

  To Tennessee.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  So I'll give you even more drama for your like movie, the movie idea. My dad really just wanted to be a doctor. And the entire village helped conspire to get him to America to become a doctor. So he tells a story, I have no idea how true any of this is, of like leaving the village with a, a bag of money that everybody pitched in to give him on his journey away. So he literally was like saving the entire, he was gonna be a doctor.

• 11:27Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  That was the deal. And then my mother left at sixteen.

• 11:30Trevor Noah?

  So this is like a village village then?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, my dad was from Kumasi, which is like another, it's like a second city.

• 11:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  After Accra. Have you been to Ghana?

• 11:37Trevor Noah?

  I've never been to Ghana.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  What?

• 11:39Trevor Noah?

  You're gonna take me?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Trevor.

• 11:41Trevor Noah?

  Ah.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  We, really? You have not?

• 11:42Trevor Noah?

  No, I've not gone. I, I, I don't wanna, so I, I talk to my friends about this all the time. Anywhere in Africa.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:51Trevor Noah?

  I don't wanna just go as a tourist.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:53Trevor Noah?

  I'd rather go visit, I wanna go to visit my friend's house or visit the.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 11:56Trevor Noah?

  Cause going as a tourist is too familiar to me. Like if I go as a tourist to Italy.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:02Trevor Noah?

  It is very much, I'm like, oh, wow, this is Italy, this is.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Right, you get a guide.

• 12:06Trevor Noah?

  When I'm in Ghana, I know the food, I know the music.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:09Trevor Noah?

  I know, I even understand the people.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 12:12Trevor Noah?

  You know, you know what I mean?

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:13Trevor Noah?

  So I need my people there to take me deeper. Otherwise, I'm, like, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna take pictures of little African kids.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Your hotel, right.

• 12:20Trevor Noah?

  Come on.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Drive by, it's true.

• 12:22Trevor Noah?

  Come on.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Okay, so you wanna hang differently.

• 12:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  And we struggle with this too, because unfortunately, my brothers and I don't speak the language, which is, I mean, language is the, is the, is the, is the passkey to culture.

• 12:34Trevor Noah?

  No, it is the thing.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  It's the thing. So we don't have that. And even though we're English speaking because of the British.

• 12:39Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  It's still different. So when I go without my parents. It feels really different.

• 12:45Trevor Noah?

  There's like a piece of Ghana that you you're locked out of.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  A little bit.

• 12:49Trevor Noah?

  Huh.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  It's like you approach the groups while everybody's speaking free and and they change to English because you're it's polite to do. They want you to hear, but it's you're still.

• 13:01Trevor Noah?

  It's not the same.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  It's not the same.

• 13:02Trevor Noah?

  The South Africans will do the same thing.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:05Trevor Noah?

  But you can feel that it's almost like someone took the spice in a meal and washed it and then gave it to you.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Cause you can't handle the spice. Look, there is that of all the places have been Ghana is the most welcoming to English speakers, to people returning home, yearning for culture. It's the best place.

• 13:24Trevor Noah?

  Isn't it getting overrun by Americans now, though?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Stop saying that.

• 13:27Trevor Noah?

  I asked the question. I'm not saying I'm not saying anything.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  You know why?

• 13:31Trevor Noah?

  I said, isn't it? There's a question mark at the end.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  No, I won't say that. The kid that was called African booty scratcher.

• 13:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Needs all of those kids that call him that to return. So there's no overrun. We need more to go back.

• 13:45Trevor Noah?

  So you're saying, no, it's not.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  I'm saying, no.

• 13:48Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Okay. I'm saying no.

• 13:50Trevor Noah?

  I've heard a lot of stories.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  No, but I also know what you're saying. Like, I'm saying one thing with my eyes and another with my mouth. Right? We could we could do this. Right? So, no, it's not overrun.

• 14:06Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you, my favorite stories have been my Ghanaian friends complaining about black Americans coming to Ghana. And they'll complain about them as if they're like white people.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Oh, totally.

• 14:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  I mean, on some level, I mean, I mean, that's but I look, I I choose to stand for the marrying of the marriage of like the African cultural experience and the African American and the British American and everywhere else in the diaspora we exist. I mean, I think you you definitely represent that.

• 14:34Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I love it.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  And so that's what I'm on. You know what I mean?

• 14:37Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Like, it's not overrun. There's space enough.

• 14:40Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  But you know what's happening is now they're like encampments in suburbs that are for like African Americans. It is being marketed as such. And so as an African American, you could buy a home in the like.

• 14:54Trevor Noah?

  In an African American enclave.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:56Trevor Noah?

  In Ghana.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  I think it's fine. I don't know.

• 14:59Trevor Noah?

  I mean, if it works, it works.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  That's a big if, right? But it it brings people back. Have we have to take you to a slave castle? Because have you ever been to any?

• 15:09Trevor Noah?

  Huh, that's a sentence that's never done well.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Deal with it.

• 15:13Trevor Noah?

  That's a.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Let me watch you deal with that.

• 15:15Trevor Noah?

  Feel like there's ever been a time in history when that sentence has ended well.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  But you have to experience.

• 15:20Trevor Noah?

  Why?

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Because, first of all, I I didn't know that you hadn't done this, so I'm even more convicted about it.

• 15:28Trevor Noah?

  I've been to slave castles, but I need to know why this one in particular.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  OK, well, I think there's a moment, well, at least for me, where you go to the door of no return.

• 15:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  And it's in all the castles.

• 15:39Trevor Noah?

  Oftentimes, it'll be like the port, near the port somewhere there.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:42Trevor Noah?

  They bring them in, and there's a little area where they're gonna get loaded onto a boat, and that's the the area of no return.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's similar in the one I went to was in Zanzibar.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 15:51Trevor Noah?

  Very similar.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  So, first of all, I mean, the East African slave trade was different. Uh, justice brutal, but um, I think the dynamics are different east-west.

• 16:03Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  But there's always that moment in the castle where you stand between where you were and where you're going. And for me, when I stand there, I get it. I get the whole diaspora.

• 16:17Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Like, I understand my experiences in Brazil, in Canada, you know, parts of Europe where there are Africans, like, I get it. Like, we all came through that door.

• 16:30Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  And I don't know that there's another uh, physical location that explains the movement of black peoples in the world quite like that point. For me.

• 16:41Trevor Noah?

  No, I feel you.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  You know, what have you experienced there?

• 16:47Trevor Noah?

  I mean, it's it's. It's a complicated collection of feelings because on the one hand, there's relief, I'll be honest, there's relief that it is now history.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Right, that it's there.

• 16:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, so like I, no, but what I mean by that is.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  It's over.

• 17:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, there's, there is something I feel whenever I go to these places where I'm like, damn, I'm glad that's done.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:06Trevor Noah?

  I know there's other things to deal with, but I'm like, I'm glad that's done.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Right, that's true.

• 17:10Trevor Noah?

  You know, because I could also be here, but not as a tourist.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  But you feel that in your body too.

• 17:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, there's just like an element of, okay.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I would have been here.

• 17:17Trevor Noah?

  Then there's another side of me that's like, damn, this is a, it's heavy.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Stark, yeah, yeah.

• 17:23Trevor Noah?

  For instance, I've never taken a picture there. And not because I judge people who do take pictures there, I just.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. There is something, it's like a sacred site.

• 17:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's like, I go, do I take a picture of me here?

• 17:36Speaker 02

  And then how do you, what expression do you make?

• 17:38Trevor Noah?

  Do I smile?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  I've seen them all, I've seen the smiles, I've seen the fists. I've seen the somber.

• 17:44Trevor Noah?

  Yes, the somber.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  You see the somber.

• 17:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but, and I get it because those are all the feelings that people have. But let's go back to your dad, because I want, I want to understand.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:53Trevor Noah?

  This journey of Derek, because I, because I know you, this is, this is the thing I love about doing a podcast with people I know, is I realize how many things I don't know about them.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Me too, exactly.

• 18:04Trevor Noah?

  Because I would never ask this in a conversation.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  No, we've taken all the spice out.

• 18:08Trevor Noah?

  Essentially, yeah, yeah, but um.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  This is a version of ourselves.

• 18:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it always will be.

• 18:15Trevor Noah?

  But like your dad, so your dad comes here.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:18Trevor Noah?

  Was he already married to your mom?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  No, but they were dating and you know, we found some lovely love letters that they wrote to each other. So my mom went to school in England for nursing.

• 18:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  And uh.

• 18:31Trevor Noah?

  And your dad was going to be a doctor?

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, isn't that.

• 18:34Trevor Noah?

  Man, you guys are Ghanaian.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:35Trevor Noah?

  This is like Ghanaian.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:38Trevor Noah?

  Proudly doctor, lawyer, engineer.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Exactly. This is it. Right. A real tra- this is a real profession. This is a profession. It's a proper. Yeah, that's like a, you know. Doctor, nurse. So your parents, so you're born in the US? I am born in, yeah, Memphis, Tennessee. Why Memphis? Why do, I always wanna know why immigrants land where they do and why they call that home. Dude, I really want someone to research African immigration. Like, we, we know the story of how the Irish came, we know how the Italians came. But I don't know that anyone has really studied, like, the movement of Africans to America. And I would just love to hear the story because we have so many cousins, Ghanaian and Nigerian,

• 19:24Speaker 02

  in these far out places in Ohio, or Texas, Tezaz, we call it. Like, all these places, and we're just now of age to, like, share experiences. But I think it happened, like, maybe the 60s is when it really picked up. Um, but yeah, so my dad came here, my mother was in England for nursing school. And there were all these strange things about growing up, like, we would eat beans with our eggs in the morning. And I just thought, this is what people, it's normal. Until you, like, share with a friend, like, wait, you guys don't eat beans? And they're like, beans? Why are you eating beans for breakfast? Were you in a black neighborhood or white neighborhood? Bro, so black. I said African booty scratcher. Follow Trevor.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Come on, no, but come on, I, how, how am I supposed to know? I don't even, I don't even know the term. Listen, white kids are not gonna call you African booty scratcher. Generally speaking. That's just too, like, they just. It's too what? It's a too a lot of things. It's too what? It's a lot of things. It could be a lot, I have a list. Like, why they wouldn't say that? First of all, there's too many syllables, it's too funny, it's too, you know what I mean? Okay, okay, you mean on that side, you say it's too much swag? It's just a lot of swag. It's like an insult that will, that will also make you laugh. It like hurts and tickles you in equal parts. That's very black, very African. You know what I mean? Like, I'm offending you and you love it. So we grew up in a very black community.

• 20:49Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  And we're talking about, you know, the seventies, eighties. So this, you know, Memphis, I mean, Dr. King died at sixty-eight.

• 20:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, this is full on segregation.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my father, actually, we're just learning a lot about like the rage he had about like going to graduate school. Uh, to, to, uh, to dental school. Because he was like, I think the second black oral surgeon in the state. But he's very African, so he doesn't know about black history. They don't know about like-

• 21:18Trevor Noah?

  Black American history.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, they don't know any-

• 21:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  I also wish that there was like a place that if you come from an African country, you could go like learn black history. Before you engage with society.

• 21:29Trevor Noah?

  Why?

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Well, because what it means to be a black immigrant is we're seeing in this time. I mean, this statement now has lots of weight. Uh, you also have the double burden of understanding racial politics. So you don't just enter. It's a bit like you enter a game in action. When you are an African American and you come to America. But you have on a jersey and you're on a side and you're losing.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  And the refs are really mean.

• 21:59Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's a great analogy. Oh, man, that's a great analogy.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Don't get hit, like balls are flying. So, but nobody explains, you know, the history, the game, so.

• 22:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I think that's why it creates a lot of conflict.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:13Trevor Noah?

  So I, I remember the first time I discovered this, I was, um, I was doing comedy shows. This was like way back, way, way, way back, long before Daily Show, long before anything.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 22:23Trevor Noah?

  So I was doing stand-up shows at colleges around the US.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a good education for you.

• 22:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:29Trevor Noah?

  And then one day I got booked, I forget where this university was, but I got booked by the African Student Council.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  The African Student Union, yeah.

• 22:38Trevor Noah?

  Right, the African Student Union.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 22:40Trevor Noah?

  So I get booked by them.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:42Trevor Noah?

  And so I get to the campus and I ask mistakenly.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 22:47Trevor Noah?

  I said, I'm looking for the African American Student Union.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Wrong group.

• 22:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and these people were like, oh, we'll take you there. And they took me there.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  And you were like?

• 22:55Trevor Noah?

  And I got there and they, they went. Wait, no, we didn't. And no one knows me. So it's not like someone's going, oh, Trevor Noah. They're just like, what are you here for? I said, I'm here for comedy.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  This is great.

• 23:03Trevor Noah?

  Like, where? I was like, oh, the African American Student Union booked me. They're like, no, we don't have any bookings today. We don't.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:09Trevor Noah?

  It goes around, goes, I call my managers, my team.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Oh, this is great.

• 23:12Trevor Noah?

  Finally gets back, they go, no, you're at the wrong place. It's the African Student Union. So they come and pick me up.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:19Trevor Noah?

  And when we're in the car going across campus, I go, what am I missing here?

• 23:24Speaker 02

  These two groups, right. Yeah.

• 23:26Trevor Noah?

  And then they tell me, oh, there used to be one union.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:29Trevor Noah?

  Which was the school called the Black Student Union.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  That's right. Yep.

• 23:33Trevor Noah?

  And they said there was so much friction between

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:37Trevor Noah?

  the non-American black students.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Do you see my heart?

• 23:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I can see it already. I can see I'm triggering you here.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, when I hear that, I hear the tragedy in a few ways. One, that blackness is flattened to just black. Because it's quite heterogeneous. There's a lot of mix inside of that. We know this.

• 24:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Even as a West African and a South African, there's worlds of difference.

• 24:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  So it's kind of absurd to fit it all in the first place to black. So that's one tragic thing.

• 24:15Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  The other is the splintering that happens and then the potential tensions that arise, which are not always the case. Everybody's kind of happy when they have their own place. But it never absolves you from the unfortunate necessity that you must advocate collectively.

• 24:37Trevor Noah?

  Yes, because you are oppressed collectively.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  That's right. So the splintering is comfortable for entertainment, for culture. So long as you can reunite. When it's time to advocate, but that doesn't always happen.

• 24:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that doesn't.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  So that's the tragedy that I feel, right? One that is already flattened in the first place, but also it splinters a collective action.

• 24:59Trevor Noah?

  It it also creates a um a type of resentment, I found. So for instance, I would meet African immigrants.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 25:06Trevor Noah?

  Who would speak about African Americans.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Oh, bad.

• 25:09Trevor Noah?

  Just they would just be like, why don't they like they're like Republican in their vibes.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  They're like mean white people.

• 25:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Worse, actually.

• 25:15Trevor Noah?

  If we're honest.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Well, well, worse because they're entitled.

• 25:18Trevor Noah?

  They don't want to work.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 25:19Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you something about black Americans.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Don't crack me up with this.

• 25:22Trevor Noah?

  They don't want to work.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:23Trevor Noah?

  They don't go to school. They love to do crime.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  All of these axes. Why are you wasting these?

• 25:28Trevor Noah?

  They love to do crime. They love to do crime. Let me tell you something.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  They love to do crime?

• 25:32Trevor Noah?

  They are not African American. They are just American. I don't know why they put African. The way they are dressing, their pants, their trousers are falling. And you're like, wow, this is like full on.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Dude, I have I have I have relatives like this.

• 25:46Trevor Noah?

  That's why I love the idea of having a school.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:49Trevor Noah?

  Because what will happen to a lot of Africans, and I'm sure you've seen this, is a lot of those Africans who come in with like the respectability politics.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 25:56Trevor Noah?

  One day they come up against the brunt.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 25:59Trevor Noah?

  Of American racism in some way, shape or form.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 26:01Trevor Noah?

  And they're shaken forever.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Forever. I mean, I have also that point. I have I have an uncle, Uncle Manny, he's now passed. And it wasn't until his later years that he talked about, he lived in Minnesota, Lisa, my cousin Lisa. He raised her. And he talked about like being used because he realized that, oh, I was I wasn't fight, I wasn't angry. So he came in the sixties, had success as a corporate guy, but he was a token. And I don't want to reduce his life. I mean, he was a hardworking man. But he, as in his later years, looking back now with a black, an understanding of of identity. He's like, oh, man, I think they used me, you know? Like, I think I was part of this game.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  And it really is, if you're talking about those moments, sometimes it happens later. I hope, Trevor, that we're in a different world now where social media is cool. Like you see Nigerian weddings, you have these shows, like kids, if you're six, seven, eight in today's world, you have Afro beats, there's all this cultural export. It's just like a different time and I, I mean, maybe I'm, I don't want to be Pollyanna, but I just think it's different.

• 27:15Trevor Noah?

  I've noticed more kids growing up today are comfortable with their culture in ways that kids weren't before.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 27:24Trevor Noah?

  Like I know, I know all of my Indian friends growing up.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:29Trevor Noah?

  Were, I mean, they were ashamed of, especially if they grew up in England. Yeah, it was just like, don't open your lunchbox.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yes, we all had that. Yes.

• 27:37Trevor Noah?

  And now.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:38Trevor Noah?

  Now on TikTok, people are like, where do I, where do I find the best igusi?

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:42Trevor Noah?

  Where do I find the best jollof rice? Where do I find, you know what I mean? Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a, it's not even just a pride, but there's like, there's almost, um,

• 27:50Trevor Noah?

  I don't know, man, there's, there's character that comes with it now. Yeah, but it's also not just comfort, it's cool.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  It is cool. I think that's a, that's a very important distinction. Comfort happened some while back. Now cool is definitely the thing.

• 28:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Like to be African and to live in America, I think is cool. When I grew up, it was kind of like, we would say to our black friends, like, you know, yeah, I've got it. They're like, African where? Do this, set up. You know, it was like, bro, I'm really African, like, trust me, say something. You know, it was like that kind of like shakedown. And, and, and now that we're older, we realize that they also just didn't, they, that splintering, they didn't want to happen. And then there was also this like envious thing.

• 28:38Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Because they're like, dude, we don't know where we came from. Like, we don't know our origins.

• 28:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  You know, when we got old enough, they talked about that. I was like, oh, that was like part envy. Like it was, they admired it on some level and they were also envious of it. And I also appreciate it differently, what it, what it means to go back to the town of my mother's mother. That is like the, that's, you know, we are matrilineal, but to know that is to like locate your lineage. That's part of the slow violence that happened in America.

• 29:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I, I'll often say.

• 29:15Trevor Noah?

  We talk about slavery as being one of the most heinous things that happened in history, and it is. Yeah. But I don't think we speak enough about how cruel it was to not just steal a people from their place, but steal a place from their people. Oh, there you go. Do you know what I mean? That's what happened on the other side. Because they robbed people. I think of it for myself. Yep. Right? Yep. There are moments when the world will throw you around. People want to label you, not label you. Of course. You, you, no matter what it is. Right. If I pause and I breathe, I go, you can take everything away from me. Right. You can even take my, my citizenship from a country. Yeah. I'm not South African anymore. But you know what? My Tosa lineage? Yes. I can, I can paint it for you. I can paint it for you and I can show you each. That's right. Each little, like, you know what I mean?

• 30:00Trevor Noah?

  Which name took us where and how. Exactly. Do you, do you get what I'm saying? Yes, yes. And I think that thing. Yes. People take for granted how beautiful it is. Yes, yes. To know why you do what you do. Yes. Because it comes from a long story that was told before you. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets, and more. No new tools, no extra logins, just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Make work less work. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 30:51Speaker 04

  I've given my blood, my sweat, my tears to this island. What happened here? We came here seeking a great treasure. We've been out here for 14 years. After centuries of mystery. You have to hold the proof in your hands. The lifelong quest. Time to go get it.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  Whoa, what the heck?

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Has finally paid off. You found that in the money pit. This is what we've spent our entire lives searching for.

• 31:15Speaker 05

  The Curse of Oak Island, new season, Tuesday, November 10th at 9, only on History.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Start your morning. With the $6 McGriddles Extra Value Meal. Featuring your choice of a sausage, egg and cheese McGriddles, or bacon, egg and cheese McGriddles. Plus crispy hash browns and a small premium roast coffee. Sweet, savory, crispy, and caffeinated. It's everything your morning ordered, all for just $6. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing at participating McDonald's.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  So I remember Roots. I don't know if so for- The show? Yeah, the show, right. Exactly, so they had a few iterations of it. But when we grew up, it was the first iteration from Alex Haley, the author who wrote Roots. And it was, I think, for a long time, like the most watched mini-series, black, white, American households were obsessed with Roots. Yeah. And it created a narrative for African-Americans that explained their roots in this very detailed, multi-generational story. The old African, you see Kute Kute as a young man, and then you see him as an old African.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  And so Kute Kute was in the lexicon and the whole thing. And then years later, we found out that some of the details in that story were fabricated, that Alex Haley wrote. Mm-hmm. And so it wasn't all true. When it came out, it was like, this is all true. Yeah, this is factual. This is factual, and I've, you know, and that was part of the strength of it. And then years later, we found out that some of it wasn't true. And it didn't matter, because people needed a story. I think it also doesn't matter, because all stories aren't true. Exactly. History is itself a fabrication. I love your bit about nations and anthems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like, it's all, and so, I mean,

• 33:18Speaker 02

  I love both sides of that, that I knew it when it was factual and it was, and then when it was something that was falsified, and it didn't matter. The power did not, the power of the story didn't change. How do you think that informs your arts?

• 33:34Trevor Noah?

  Because when I think of your art, I think of you as a storyteller. And not in like a highfalutin way, by the way. Like, let's preface all of it by saying this. Yes, Derek Fordjour is easily considered by many, especially who like know what they're talking about. You're considered a luminary of the art world.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 33:54Trevor Noah?

  No, you really are. And it's not easy to get to the place that you've gotten to.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Well, thank you.

• 33:58Trevor Noah?

  Like, in the art world. It's also, let's be honest, five times harder to get there as a black man, like randomly, like a black person.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  That's everything.

• 34:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I think less so in the NBA. Let's put it that way.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Oh, Trevor, you say some of the wildest things.

• 34:14Trevor Noah?

  What are you talking about?

• 34:15Speaker 02

  And it's totally appropriate.

• 34:16Trevor Noah?

  I'm saying there are some areas that are still way harder to get into.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Could you give me another one?

• 34:20Trevor Noah?

  As a black person.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Give me one more.

• 34:22Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Like, just another one. Like, so we have the NBA.

• 34:25Trevor Noah?

  You want to go into music. If you're a black man walking into music, no one's going like, hmm, I don't know.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Let's hear something.

• 34:32Trevor Noah?

  I don't know about that. Let's hear, what have you made of? No.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 34:36Trevor Noah?

  But the art world.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  You're right, you're right. This is true.

• 34:39Trevor Noah?

  The art world is the most gate-kept, gatekeeping that has ever existed in the history of gatekeeping.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  That's fair.

• 34:44Trevor Noah?

  So what I want to, like, so the reason I want to preface it with that is because your art holds a special place in the storytelling.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:53Trevor Noah?

  Of the intersection, I believe, between African-American history.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:00Trevor Noah?

  You know? But I want to know how much the idea you just talked about informs how you perceive your art. Because what you just said was crucial, right? We all need stories.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 35:11Trevor Noah?

  But the facts of the story are less relevant than the story itself.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Well, I think, like, I love the question, and I think about, I think about you that way. Like, the shock I just had about what you just said. You have the authority, the moral authority, to make certain comments.

• 35:32Trevor Noah?

  Well, man, I just have authority with you. What do you mean? If you're

• 35:35Speaker 02

  You got authority with me.

• 35:36Trevor Noah?

  If you're offended, I'm then I'm screwed.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  What kind of authority you got with me?

• 35:40Trevor Noah?

  What I mean is like, if you're offended, there's only, I mean, we're friends.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  It's true, it's true, it's very true. But I mean, even publicly, right?

• 35:46Trevor Noah?

  I I just think, I just think sometimes what you do, and I understand why you'll do this. I actually think it's a very African thing. You will dismiss, a lot of people do this, you'll dismiss how hard it was for you to get there. There's a certain element of you being like, no, no, no, it's hard for all of us. And I'm not saying it's not hard for everyone.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:02Trevor Noah?

  But I'm saying what you chose was particularly hard.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  I mean, it's tru- okay, so it's true, so you

• 36:09Trevor Noah?

  And I'm, and again.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  This is hard, because you know me, this is what's hard about talking to you.

• 36:12Trevor Noah?

  And let me clarify this for people. I don't mean painting is hard, art is already hard, alright? I'm talking about getting into the art world.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:20Trevor Noah?

  And being considered a verifiable part of it.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:25Trevor Noah?

  Do you see what I'm saying?

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so now you're forcing me to have a real conversation.

• 36:29Trevor Noah?

  I mean, that's why we're here.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  I guess that's why I'm here.

• 36:31Trevor Noah?

  Well, that's why we always

• 36:31Speaker 02

  I'm like, damn.

• 36:32Trevor Noah?

  When have we not had a real conversation?

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is what he, this is what he does. Like, because I'm so well attuned to like, switching the conversation.

• 36:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Given the context and how it's going to be received.

• 36:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  And so, there's a lot of posturing and withholding that's necessary. Because with art, you want the conversation to be about the work. And you don't want the, uh, the traps to happen where it it gets into places that you have no investment.

• 37:07Trevor Noah?

  You see, but that's something I feel like is also unique to a black artist.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  It is.

• 37:10Trevor Noah?

  I'll give you an example.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely is.

• 37:12Trevor Noah?

  Vincent van Gogh, right?

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, very good of that pronunciation.

• 37:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I mean, you have to be, so.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  You've been to the museum, did you go?

• 37:18Trevor Noah?

  Actually, haven't, haven't I?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  I haven't either, I haven't either.

• 37:20Trevor Noah?

  I haven't, I don't think I have.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:21Trevor Noah?

  But they never talk about his art without talking about his story.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 37:25Trevor Noah?

  His, his health, his mental health, the way he saw the world, what he was going through, the medicine he was on. Picasso, I've never heard anyone talk about Picasso and just be like, eh, Picasso, the painting. No, they'll tell you about his journeys and his travels to Africa and the way he saw women and the loves.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  The passion.

• 37:40Trevor Noah?

  The loves who informed him and how his heart was broken, you know what I mean?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Mistress, yeah, you're right, right.

• 37:45Trevor Noah?

  There is no artist, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, you name it, there are none of them.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:51Trevor Noah?

  Where their story is not part of their art.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Oh, this is true, yeah.

• 37:55Trevor Noah?

  And it's never seen as an excuse, it's never seen as

• 38:00Trevor Noah?

  Uh, something that that leaves a blemish on their work in any way. However, to your point with black artists.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:08Trevor Noah?

  I find, for the most part, in speaking to you and many other black artists.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:12Trevor Noah?

  The art world wants your story.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:15Trevor Noah?

  But not like the the the the rough edges of it.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  Not the messy parts of it.

• 38:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, not the messy parts of it.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Right, right. I was looking at uh this idea called stereotype threat, which I came across 20 years ago. There's a guy named Claude Steele who talks about not racism. The anticipation of racism happening has deleterious effects. Like, if if I don't even encounter it, but I think on the other side of this door, it might happen. It affects how I present myself.

• 38:48Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Right?

• 38:50Trevor Noah?

  Schrugging is racism. I like that.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Right. So so stereotype threat is an additional anxiety. There's the thing, which is actually racism.

• 38:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  That you have to contend with. But your anticipation of it, how you steel yourself.

• 39:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  How you, you know, that is also like very anxious. So that's a lot of what my work is about, is the strategy. The gamesmanship necessary to um traverse a troubled space, right? And the art world, as you're right, has has been troubled.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  It's tough for us, but I have to acknowledge all of the artists that came before me. Um, and my peers to make this moment possible. I sound like I've given an award speech, but I think I think it's really just important to acknowledge because those are the artists that people just don't know at all.

• 39:50Trevor Noah?

  Who would you say are the the black artists who made the art world see black art differently? Or open the art world to black people? Can you think of just a few?

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Okay, so that.

• 40:00Trevor Noah?

  And I'm not saying they're the only ones.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  No, no, for sure.

• 40:02Trevor Noah?

  But just a few.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  It's a complicated question because there is a moment that the art world starts to take notice of black artists.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  But then there had been artists working way before that that were just never acknowledged at all. So there's a lot of retrospective work that's happening to acknowledge art.

• 40:24Trevor Noah?

  What was?

• 40:25Speaker 02

  So it's kind of like saying, like, if we were to use an NBA analogy, like, like, we, we all know, like, Michael Jordan was the first guy that showed us you could have astronomical commercial success.

• 40:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  While you have success on the court, right? So there's no Kobe, there's no LeBron without Jordan. But there was also Dr. J, right?

• 40:45Trevor Noah?

  I'm with you.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  And there was also Wilt Chamberlain, right? And so there's so many people behind him. Uh, I would say probably David Hammons.

• 40:55Trevor Noah?

  David Hammons, okay.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  And actually on the pier here in New York, I mean, there's a wonderful monument that he has across from, uh, the Whitney Museum. I think it personifies perfectly why so many people might not know the name David Hammons. There's a full-blown monument that costs tens of millions of dollars to build. And I spoke to the director of Whitney about this, so we, I mean, it's a big thing for them. But you could pass it a million times and never notice it. It has thin wire frame to outline what used to be the piers on, uh, on the West Side Highway.

• 41:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  So he just framed a building. So you can miss it, and he's okay with that. And this is part of the genius of David Hammons. His presence is as fascinating as his absence.

• 41:45Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  And he's done some of the most compelling, uh, conceptual projects, like he sold snowballs on the street. Like, for, for an exchange, like, people bought snowballs. And that's, that's, that's an artwork.

• 42:01Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Right. This is, this is David Hammons. I mean, that's one of his more popular artworks, but he can hide in plain sight. He played like the artwork.

• 42:10Trevor Noah?

  These are snowballs that actually melt.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:12Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  But you could buy one.

• 42:14Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  It opens up this amazing commentary on commerce. What are you buying? What is exchange?

• 42:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Where is value?

• 42:22Trevor Noah?

  I feel like there are, there are fields that people get into. That don't reveal how essential they are to society immediately. So when you look at fashion, a lot of people just go, oh, man, fashion, whatever. They they very seldom look at how fashion can include or exclude them from a space and make them seem like they're supposed to be or not be somewhere.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 42:49Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? A simple example is like just a suit. Just a suit in and of itself.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 42:53Trevor Noah?

  Immediately became a signifier.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:55Trevor Noah?

  As to whether or not you were deemed respectable enough to step into certain establishment.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 43:00Trevor Noah?

  Right? And so you look at how like MLK used a suit.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:03Trevor Noah?

  And he was like, all right, guys, we're wearing suits.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 43:06Trevor Noah?

  We're gonna go get beaten up.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 43:08Trevor Noah?

  It'll be way easier.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  And we're broke.

• 43:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it'll be easier to wear like hoodies.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:11Trevor Noah?

  It's more comfortable. We're gonna get beaten up.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  For a beat down.

• 43:13Trevor Noah?

  You're gonna get beaten up. Why wear a suit?

• 43:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 43:16Trevor Noah?

  The man said we're gonna wear a suit because the suit represents something and it says something, right?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:20Trevor Noah?

  And and I remember speaking to someone in fashion about this, how they were like, oh, a lot of people think of fashion as just being whatever. But even look at sizing, for instance, right? When sizes become more accommodating, more people feel like they're part of

• 43:33Speaker 02

  They're inclusive, right?

• 43:34Trevor Noah?

  The world now.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 43:35Trevor Noah?

  You know, it's it's small things and yet it's powerful.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  No, no, because you're talking about the power of images.

• 43:40Trevor Noah?

  Yes. Right? Architecture was another one. Most people

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:43Trevor Noah?

  don't care about architects.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Don't think about it.

• 43:45Trevor Noah?

  Most people, yeah. And most people are affected by architects in ways that they would never, ever imagine. From like a bench that tells you whether or not you can or should sit at a park.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:57Trevor Noah?

  All the way through to how your house sits in relation to another house, telling you whether you should greet your neighbor or not. And some people are like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, no, no, no, architects have showed me some other worlds.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  That's right. Let me let me add to that.

• 44:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  And then when we open this conversation even more broadly to African architecture and different modes of um, creation and um, domicile and public space and the plaza, it's a big conversation, but it's invisible to most of us.

• 44:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  What you're talking about relative to um, the suits and respectability, you'll see a lot of suits in my paintings because of that. It's a it's a signifier. It's a code uh, about how to uh, navigate space, how to anticipate um, a certain perception and then to use it for your benefit, which is why, back to Hammond's, his invisibility.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Is as crucial as his visibility, right? And so when we talk about representation, overrepresentation, underrepresentation, I kind of jokingly say, like, if you ever went to see the doctor and all the doctors were six feet tall and they were black guys, we would all whisper a question to someone. What's?

• 45:16Speaker 02

  And I joke, my little brother Rick is a dentist, right? And I talk about him all the time because I, I used to get on my brothers about, about wearing expensive shoes.

• 45:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  And I'd be like, bro, I would never pay that much money for shoes. You guys are ridiculous. And I just thought like, like when you were saying earlier about like the way Africans critique African Americans, like, you pay $400 for shoes, $300, like, you know? And my brother is like, hey, hey, man, they look at my shoes.

• 45:40Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  And I was like, oh, he's right. He's like the only black doctor in a practice of four doctors. The other three are, are white doctors. And they look at his shoes and he feels that. And so there's this tax where he's gonna spend more on shoes when his partners arguably, I don't know what they're wearing in real life, but I mean, in theory.

• 46:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but their competence.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not connected to.

• 46:08Trevor Noah?

  Is not connected to their appearance.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Their representation. All of these conversations are embedded in, in the codes of my work because I feel like it's additional pressure. I mean, to take us full circle back to your question about what it means to be black and to enter this space.

• 46:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  One, it's, it's impossible without our forebears. And I've even had dealers at different times where we would talk about the absence of black artists, you know, eighties, you know, seventies from the commercial art, art space. And they said, hey, man, the blacks weren't making the good work. The blacks are making the good work now, man. They got better.

• 46:46Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  You guys are making the good work. That's why it's working. They ju- it just wasn't that good then. And I thought, wow. There are a lot of people that believe this. That's why I cannot talk about entering this space without shedding light on all of the ones so, so much further behind me.

• 47:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Uh, because they, they really made it possible. There was a, there's an artist named Norman Lewis who, we're going back now to, to bring his legacy forward. There was an exhibition at the, uh, Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art. The curators in the middle of the exhibition had a letter that Norman Lewis wrote to Leo Costelli. Leo Costelli is a legendary dealer in New York and all of the art world.

• 47:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Norman Lewis's studio was right around the corner from Leo Costelli's gallery, like two blocks. And Norman Lewis had been writing letters to Leo Costelli to ask him to visit the studio. And it never happened. And so the inclusion of that letter gave what you're talking about, the kind of perspective of what it meant that Norman Lewis was able to make all of this work. Under those circumstances.

• 48:04Trevor Noah?

  I, I'm with you.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  You're right. You're with me, right? And so, um, I don't know. I feel like I'm, I'm in the space where it's cool and we can make money and, you know, it's like looking at the NBA. I also have a friend whose dad played in the NBA and he worked and sold used cars in the off season. Like it was.

• 48:26Trevor Noah?

  He was pre-money.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  He was pre-money.

• 48:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Same game, worked as hard, might have worked harder.

• 48:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Right? But doing the same thing.

• 48:38Trevor Noah?

  Now it's time for a segment we call Where in the World? Brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way, so you can show up for what matters most. Uber, on our way. Christiana, do you want to know where I am now? Sometimes I feel like you get frustrated that I'm traveling.

• 48:59Speaker 06

  No, no, I'm interested because you get to travel and I don't. So I'm living vicariously through you right now.

• 49:04Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I like this. I like this. This is like a new vibe. Before you'd almost say it like I don't have a home.

• 49:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, no, now you say it open. Uh, well, currently, I am in your neck of the woods. I'm in London. I came here for a friend's birthday party. And, uh, yeah, he took me everywhere, actually. I'm trying to go everywhere that I can go in London that I haven't been. So I'm trying to stay away from like the usual, you know, like Buckingham Palace and...

• 49:31Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, you don't want to do that.

• 49:32Trevor Noah?

  Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, and like the eye. So I'm all in like Brixton and Hackney and Dalston.

• 49:38Speaker 06

  You're in the end.

• 49:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, and like Camden and all of these places. Yo, let me tell you something. London's a vibe.

• 49:46Speaker 06

  It's great, especially when the weather's good. When the weather's good, it's one of the best cities in the world.

• 49:51Trevor Noah?

  You see, I don't often go to London when the weather's not good. And what I don't like is how all of you Londoners say that. That sentence...

• 49:59Speaker 06

  That's crazy. I'm surprised that you've been to London and the weather's been good. Because normally it's just rainy and gray, like that's the London I know.

• 50:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I mean, now and again, I'll bump into like a rainy gray day, but I don't... Let me put it this way, I've been to a few places in the world where more people immediately bring up the weather like a reason I should escape. So I go everywhere. I go everywhere in the world. But in London, I'll say to somebody, they'll go, oh, they go like, oh, Trevor, how are you enjoying London? Are you having fun? And I'm like, oh, I'm having a great time. They're like, oh, yeah, and the weather's been good. You're really lucky. You're really lucky, Trevor. It's not always like this. Oh, you should go before it changes. I'm like, yo, what is happening right now? What is happening right now? Just enjoy it.

• 50:39Speaker 06

  It's being British. It's like the national pastime is to speak about the weather. So you're either complaining about it or you're happy about it. Those are the two states of emotion when it comes to the weather.

• 50:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I find it's more, I find it's more the Brits are complaining about it or they're complaining about how it normally is, but it's not now. So you'll go, this is nice. They're like, yeah, but it's not normally like this.

• 51:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, we're a nation of complainers.

• 51:03Trevor Noah?

  I don't know. I think it's lovely and I'm enjoying myself. Well, that was today's Where in the World brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way, so you can show up for what matters most. Uber, on our way.

• 51:25Trevor Noah?

  I'll often say to people, and I think I have this because comedy has been my profession. Yeah.

• 51:33Trevor Noah?

  I often will say to people, all work is a scam. I love this. Right? I'm not saying things that people do are scams, but I'm saying work. The word work, all work is a scam. Yeah. Because the value of that work is merely assigned by those who have the resources. That's right. It's all arbitrary. Yes. You know, so that's why I was smiling at the snowball thing. That's why I had that effect. Because I'm like, ah, man, yeah, that. And I try and explain this to people and they go like, no, no, no, but, but what about? And I'm like, listen, I'm not trying to offend anybody. Right. But almost all our jobs are fake. Yes, they are. Okay. Absolutely. And we also assign a fake value to them and that value shifts and moves.

• 52:14Trevor Noah?

  You know, one of the, the, the simple examples is like, if you think of like the computer game back in the day in, in the US. Yeah. It wasn't a really well-paying job. No, not at all. And women used to work as computers, as they called them, and they would like run those machines. That's right. Plug, plug, plug, plug. And then that was like a stable job and started growing and the men came, took it over and then it skyrocketed. That's right. And if you look at most professions that are generally considered a woman's profession. When the men get involved? When the men get involved, the money goes up. Right. But when the women are involved, the money goes down. That's right. So nursing. That's right. Teaching, all these professions. Yes. But doctor, oh, no, no, no, no, money goes up, money goes up, money goes up, money goes up. I, I actually want to know though, like in, in the art world, I understand that things cost a lot of money, right? Yeah.

• 52:59Trevor Noah?

  But I know for myself and for most people, a lot of people will just be like, it's will. It feels like a scam. It feels like people are just making it up.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:09Trevor Noah?

  So for instance, I'll go with this. Many people do not question the price of a Louis Vuitton bag.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:15Trevor Noah?

  All right.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Because of the story they've been told.

• 53:16Trevor Noah?

  Yes, because they.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Enough people believe it.

• 53:18Trevor Noah?

  Yes, and they go, it's Louis Vuitton.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:21Trevor Noah?

  Someone goes, oh, that's a Louis Vuitton.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:23Trevor Noah?

  And then when you break it down into its components, and people do this all the time. That's why YouTube's amazing.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:29Trevor Noah?

  Someone will go, oh, it costs.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Twelve dollars.

• 53:32Trevor Noah?

  Whatever, to make this Louis Vuitton bag.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:34Trevor Noah?

  And they sell it to you for two thousand dollars.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:37Trevor Noah?

  And the same bag with the same level of artisan skill, the same level of everything.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:42Trevor Noah?

  Someone else is doing it for three hundred dollars.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:45Trevor Noah?

  And you're buying it because of the Louis Vuitton of it all, right? In that world, I find people, I find people are less likely to question it. Same thing with cars.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  It's interesting, yeah.

• 53:53Trevor Noah?

  Right? People will buy a Ferrari.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 53:56Trevor Noah?

  But really, all Ferrari has done is limit their supply.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 53:59Trevor Noah?

  Focus on the demand.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Told a great story.

• 54:01Trevor Noah?

  Tell a great story. It is a fantastic car in many ways.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:04Trevor Noah?

  But they could make more of them if they wanted to.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  Easily.

• 54:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:08Trevor Noah?

  What do you think it is about art that like jars up with the everyman?

• 54:12Speaker 02

  You know, it's a great question, and I think what you're asking about is not art. I think you're asking about value, the way the art world assigns value, right?

• 54:23Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly what I mean, yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  And even more specific, we're talking about the art market, which is different than, but related to, art itself.

• 54:33Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Uh, it's an important distinction to make because I think out in the world, outside of the art world, much like the purse, we conflate the value or the price, we relate the price to the value, right? So.

• 54:49Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  So, so we, we see a Louis Vuitton and automatically we know it's expensive.

• 54:54Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Right? In the art world, very differently, you will witness the cost of the Louis Vuitton bag go from three dollars.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  To twenty dollars.

• 55:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  To three million.

• 55:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  Nothing about the bag has changed. We don't tell a different story. We've added deluxe zippers. There's wifi in the back.

• 55:17Trevor Noah?

  Uh huh.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 55:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  When you bought it at three, it's the exact same bag. And so that's what's baffling to people that we don't even hide the fact that it's the same bag at three dollars that it was at three million. You have so many people here in New York City who'll tell you, uh, oh, I paid two hundred dollars for my Warhol. Or, you know.

• 55:39Trevor Noah?

  Oh, like an, an original Andy Warhol. They bought it for two hundred.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 55:43Trevor Noah?

  And now it's worth.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, twenty million.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Or, or, or, or.

• 55:48Trevor Noah?

  Where were we?

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Oh, you, oh, you think you would have been able to, you think, you think they would have sold it to you?

• 55:53Trevor Noah?

  I mean, there's.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Dude, you just talked about the suit.

• 55:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  You talked about access. I'm saying like, we cannot, I mean, cause.

• 55:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Cause access and value, all this stuff is related. So the question then.

• 56:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but Andy Warhol seems like he was a cool guy.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Three dollars.

• 56:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Who gets to pay the three dollars? Who has that intel? That's what the black artist represents and what's very complex about us entering the space because you can't have black artists in the space without complicating the space for black institutions, for black collectors, for trustees. The entire ecosystem is affected when black artists participate. I'd like to also point to the entertainment industry when we had black comedians, actors, but you didn't have black ownership, you didn't have agents, you didn't have, it took a while to get the infrastructure. So we are now advocating for us to participate more globally in the business.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Right? And I think that that's part of why they kept us out for so long.

• 56:55Trevor Noah?

  Own the team.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 56:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  So it, so it's like, the question is not me because, you know, we're kind of frontmen, you too. You know, nobody sees the entire operation behind you.

• 57:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  See you, right? But part of being successful is understanding the apparatus and getting good at that. And we've been in long enough where that's starting to happen. And that's, to me, even more exciting than the mere presence of black artists.

• 57:19Trevor Noah?

  How did it feel when you saw the value of your art go up? Like, did it, did it liberate you or did it imprison you?

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Hmm, I you know, I have to I'm trying to remember that we're here because you know I want to ask you the same thing. I won't do that.

• 57:32Trevor Noah?

  You can.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 57:33Trevor Noah?

  This is how we talk.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  So there was a time where you were probably paid twenty dollars for getting on stage.

• 57:37Trevor Noah?

  You're being very generous.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Bro, I literally come across emails sometimes where I was begging people to buy my work. Like, hello, Trevor, I hope all is well with comedy in your world. I saw your specials. Great. Uh, listen, hey, man, I got these new works. I was doing that, like begging people to buy the work. That was so long for me that I don't believe the three million dollar number.

• 58:09Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Right? I know it's made up. Now, that's not to say that there's no value.

• 58:16Trevor Noah?

  No, I I I know what you mean. Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 58:18Trevor Noah?

  No, I I I'm with you completely. Someone asked me this one day. And they they were like, can you think of an analogy for it? And this is this is how I thought of it. In life, when you are creating, forget art.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:30Trevor Noah?

  Just creating.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:32Trevor Noah?

  I think there are two ways you can achieve success.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 58:36Trevor Noah?

  I think of society as being people on a train.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Hmm, I like this.

• 58:39Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 58:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:40Trevor Noah?

  The train is constantly moving.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:42Trevor Noah?

  Train is constantly moving. That's society.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:44Trevor Noah?

  And as somebody who's creating, you're trying to get the people in the train to look at the thing you're doing and take it.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:52Trevor Noah?

  And then you are now in commerce with them in some way.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:56Trevor Noah?

  They're accepting of you. They remunerate you, whatever it might be. But the point is, you you need the people in the train.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:01Trevor Noah?

  To get there.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Wait, where are you? Are you on the platform?

• 59:03Trevor Noah?

  No, you're just like standing on the side of the track.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  You're the same.

• 59:06Trevor Noah?

  You're just standing on the side of the track. It's like, hey, society never stops moving.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 59:10Trevor Noah?

  Except when it does. There's moments where society, just like it slows down and they look out the window.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:15Trevor Noah?

  And I always go this one of two ways. Either you can run as fast as the train and try and be next to it so that

• 59:22Speaker 02

  This is good.

• 59:22Trevor Noah?

  Society looks at you and goes, oh, I see you and I'm with it. Or you can stay exactly where you are.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Right, and wait.

• 59:29Trevor Noah?

  And just hope

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:31Trevor Noah?

  That the train will stop one day

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Yes, that's beautiful.

• 59:33Trevor Noah?

  Where you happen to be, right? And so when I when I think of it, let's

• 59:37Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 59:37Trevor Noah?

  We can take it to anything. Um, there's a time in history when Ferrari is struggling to sell his cars.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 59:45Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:46Trevor Noah?

  Now, people are like, what are you talking about?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:47Trevor Noah?

  You go into the watch world.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 59:49Trevor Noah?

  There's a time when Patek Philippe is begging people.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:53Trevor Noah?

  Begging people.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 59:55Trevor Noah?

  To buy their watches.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Totally, yeah.

• 59:57Trevor Noah?

  Going around to little jewelry stores in New York. Now, good luck getting one.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:00:01Trevor Noah?

  I think that applies to everything in every way.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:06Trevor Noah?

  And that's why I often say to people, I'm allergic to the advice that most successful people give. Because most successful people will give advice that implies that they're responsible for their success.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:00:20Trevor Noah?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:00:21Trevor Noah?

  So they will say.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:22Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you what you gotta do.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:00:24Trevor Noah?

  You gotta believe in yourself.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:00:25Trevor Noah?

  You gotta work hard.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:00:26Trevor Noah?

  You see the other person, you gotta work harder than them.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:00:29Trevor Noah?

  And you gotta put your effort in.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:30Trevor Noah?

  And you believe.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:31Trevor Noah?

  And if you believe.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:32Trevor Noah?

  Anything is possible. Yes.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Welcome to America.

• 1:00:34Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:00:35Trevor Noah?

  But anything that they leave out is failure.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:00:38Trevor Noah?

  If anything is possible, then failure is possible.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:00:40Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:00:42Trevor Noah?

  And I feel like not enough of them say, luck.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Dude, it's real.

• 1:00:47Trevor Noah?

  Be involved in computers around the dot com boom.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:51Trevor Noah?

  Luck. There are companies that blew up in that period, sold, and then within a few years were worth zero, literally zero.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:00:58Trevor Noah?

  Yahoo bought companies and sold companies. Yahoo itself got sold and bought.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:01:02Trevor Noah?

  There's all these stories. No one would say that of the business world. They wouldn't say the business world is fake.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  No, they can't.

• 1:01:08Trevor Noah?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  They're invested in a big.

• 1:01:09Trevor Noah?

  They would never say the business world is fake.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  No, no, no, they can't say that. They can't. But they know, when you go behind the scenes at all these big finance, inside, they'll tell you, it's a fiction, man. We need everybody to believe the same thing at the same time.

• 1:01:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Right? It's a house of cards.

• 1:01:28Trevor Noah?

  Yes. Inter-subjective realities, I believe it's called.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Oh, this is good. I like that. I've never heard that term. I love it.

• 1:01:33Trevor Noah?

  I remember, I learned it from Yuval Noah Harari, who we had on the podcast.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 1:01:37Trevor Noah?

  Talked to him, and in his book Nexus, he's talking about how humans have connected all of these ideas.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Trevor Noah?

  And how we've made societies out of agreed fictions in many ways.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  That's what it is.

• 1:01:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. He goes, gravity is objective, right?

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:01:49Trevor Noah?

  Whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't there.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Right, it happens.

• 1:01:52Trevor Noah?

  The US dollar.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Yes, fiction.

• 1:01:54Trevor Noah?

  Is a fiction.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:55Trevor Noah?

  That is real because we agree upon it.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  That's the only reason why.

• 1:01:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  So now you've just explained contemporary art. You've just explained it. Well, you've explained the market. It's a fiction that we all agree. Will legitimize. Yeah. Now, I say to artists all the time. Realize what's happening when you're able to sell your art because people can give you compliments and not give you money. Oh. Right? I can like, I can like you. I can think you're great. But if I don't buy a ticket to your show. Like, that's just a different level of investment. I'm with you. And so, you know. I, I used to hear years ago, you know. My dad would tell me, son, a professional is somebody who gets paid to do what they do. Hmm. Right? You get paid. For artists.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  You can be a professional and have no money coming in for a long time. In fact, it could all come after you die. Oh, easily, it could come. I mean, hopefully less so these days, but it's true. So. The money cannot validate the art. Because of what you just said. Because value's all over the place. The value's shifting. Sometimes they can miss it. All those black artists for. You know. A hundred and fifty years that were overlooked. Weren't making better or worse art. The, the country. Discounted them. The train. It's the train. So the train, the train wasn't stopping there. Train wasn't stopping. So, so for me and for other artists. You have to at once know that the art is

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  authentic and true and real because it's what you have transferred into that material. In my case, I, I make objects. But that transfer has nothing to do with anything but me and that material at four o'clock in the morning. It's a spiritual experience. When I'm done with it and it enters the public realm for critique, for connoisseurship, for commerce. That's a different thing.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Those two things are related and separate. And that firewall, at least in the mind of the artist, has to remain intact.

• 1:04:08Trevor Noah?

  I actually like this for all artists, to be honest.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Right, it really applies to all of us. What we're talking about is-

• 1:04:13Trevor Noah?

  If you're in fashion, if you are in music, if you are in, you know, physical. What do you call art in your, because art covers everything, but then what do you-

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  It's true, art is fine. Yeah, contemporary art.

• 1:04:24Trevor Noah?

  Contemporary art, okay. But in all of these spheres, I think it's the same thing.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  It is the same thing. It's true. I mean, what you said about the art world that people tend to pay attention to are the, the big numbers.

• 1:04:34Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  How much do paintings sell for? But people don't talk about your salary. Like you.

• 1:04:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  You want people to talk about what you're interested in. And the conversation is, ironically, that's where value is, though.

• 1:04:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I think the difference is for us, though, and I've always wondered how you feel about this as an artist. The difference is, I have a million relationships of one. You have one relationship of a million.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  Oh, this is good. Slow down. So you have a million-

• 1:05:08Trevor Noah?

  I have a million relationships of one.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  Meaning one person?

• 1:05:11Trevor Noah?

  So there is no one audience member-

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:13Trevor Noah?

  -who is making me or breaking me.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:16Trevor Noah?

  Right? And I appreciate them almost all equally because it's like, no.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  That's why you could-

• 1:05:21Trevor Noah?

  You're coming in with your twenty dollars, and you're coming in with your three hundred rand, and you're coming in with your twenty-five or forty pounds, and you're coming in with your-

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Trevor Noah?

  Everyone's coming in with their whatever amount.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:32Trevor Noah?

  And this is like a collective, but all of you have come in with a little. And then we're making the show.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:37Trevor Noah?

  Right? But I have a million ones, and that's the relationship I have.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:41Trevor Noah?

  But you have one relationship with a million.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  Very true.

• 1:05:45Trevor Noah?

  Do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  I hundred percent agree. The art world, in many ways, is not democratic. Because what you're explaining is democratic.

• 1:05:53Trevor Noah?

  Yes, it is.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  That's one, one, one woman, one, one dollar.

• 1:05:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's exactly what it is. One, one, one ticket, one vote.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  And, and this is also why you can be a superstar, and why so many people know your name. Because you play to the widest possible demographic on some level.

• 1:06:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, you're right, yeah.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Okay, for us-

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  We're known in very small rooms.

• 1:06:18Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  With very few people with lots and lots of money.

• 1:06:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the most powerful people. I'd love to know from your perspective as an artist, why do you think art is so essential?

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Well, I truly believe that art is, it's in our original coding. Because you'd be hard pressed to find any society, anywhere in the world, through any period of time, that did not create something outside of themselves.

• 1:06:49Trevor Noah?

  Like cave drawings.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  I don't go to the caves, but like, let's go to South America. Let's go to the rainforest. Let's go to the way they twisted leaves together to make beautiful, thatcheted homes. Or it's really impossible to find humans where they're not creating anything. And so, and I've thought a lot about this, about why, why people care. One of the things I used to love to do in New York City, and this is even before I was begging people to buy the paintings. You're just kind of in a room and you're making things and you're just fucking suffering. Maybe somebody bought a painting. I would take the painting to them uncovered so I could ride on the train with my art just to see whether anybody cared.

• 1:07:36Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I like this.

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  And you'd be surprised how many people of different kinds would say, you did that? And I say, yeah. He said, that's good, man. All types of people. And I used to love the way.

• 1:07:52Trevor Noah?

  This is a, I feel like you invented the first like People's Gallery. They should, you know, they should do, they should do that.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  Dude, I love that. There's a woman named Sandra Blutworth who just retired from the MTA in New York City. Her job for over 30 years was to pick artists for the subway to do public, public works. And New York City probably has one of the best public works program in all of the country.

• 1:08:14Trevor Noah?

  I did not know that.

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  Yes, and so it's not always original work. I have my work at the 145th Street.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  Two or three line.

• 1:08:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  And it's all my work. The ideas are in there and I love it.

• 1:08:28Trevor Noah?

  What kind of work?

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, it's like I designed.

• 1:08:32Trevor Noah?

  Like murals, like on the tiles and everything? If I had my art at a station, I would feel personally connected to the station.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Oh, I love it.

• 1:08:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I would like go and wanna like keep the station clean and I wanna fight people.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  Let me tell you what, before you get to the point where you're, you know, looking at museums as a possibility, you know, you have the public. Like I took the train every day.

• 1:08:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  So like to have my work in a train station in New York City was like, what?

• 1:08:58Trevor Noah?

  I'll be fighting.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  Dude, so it's great because.

• 1:09:01Trevor Noah?

  Let someone try to take a shit at that station.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what you think.

• 1:09:04Trevor Noah?

  You don't even understand the fight that we're gonna have. That's my art station.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Yo.

• 1:09:09Trevor Noah?

  Yo, D, you don't even understand.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  But what I say is it is the Derek Forger Underground Museum of the People. That's the way I refer to it.

• 1:09:17Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I like this.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Um, but I was actually, you know, a- after divorce, which happened years ago, I was like struggling again, living out of my studio, um, sleeping on an air mattress. Like it was just tough times. And it was a block away from where they called me to put my work at the station years later.

• 1:09:34Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  And I just thought, this is not coincidence. That was my station.

• 1:09:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  During some of the darkest months of my life and that's where my work is. So, I think that, look, I think it's spiritual to answer your question. I think that there, there's no people without making something. I think about the blacksmiths, the instrument makers, all the technologies that lived in the people that moved to different parts of the world and how those things then express themselves.

• 1:10:07Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  The banjo, you know, which is I, I just have a banjo on my last show, but I love the story of the banjo. That starts in Africa with a gourd and ends up, you know, as folk music in America.

• 1:10:19Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's actually a comedian who did a lot about that history. Steve Martin. In his later years, did a lot of research on the banjo. And he's, it starts in Africa. There's no banjo in America without the American slave.

• 1:10:34Trevor Noah?

  That is wild, because the banjo seems like the epitome of white America.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so, I mean, look, Beyonce is dealing with that too. I think she had the banjo in her work. There's a Black Banjo Project that, that has been researching this. But you asked about my work and like, what stories? I love the opportunity to introduce those complexities and to magnify them. And to have people make connections to things that they might not have made otherwise. I mean, it's what you do in your work too, right? It's like, how can we think about this separate and apart from the stories we've been told about what they are?

• 1:11:15Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Right? And art is a space where we can, we can make a new story.

• 1:11:20Trevor Noah?

  I think I only truly, truly, truly understood the value of art when I went to Ukraine.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  Hmm, tell me about this.

• 1:11:30Trevor Noah?

  I traveled to Ukraine, this was many years ago, um, obviously before the conflict. I was, I was gonna go watch a Champions League final.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Trevor Noah?

  So we go and what I was most taken by was how devoid of art the place was. Like, any Soviet countries.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:48Trevor Noah?

  And not, not all, but there were many parts of what we call former Soviet Union countries where it's devoid of art.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:55Trevor Noah?

  Everything has to be functional only for the purpose of the function.

• 1:11:58Speaker 02

  It's like East Berlin.

• 1:12:00Trevor Noah?

  It really is, yeah, it really is.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:02Trevor Noah?

  And when I came back from Ukraine, I remember traveling and realizing, oh, man. You know, the thing about art that's weird is, it's like, you don't play video games, right?

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  No. How do you know that? You're making a presumption.

• 1:12:18Trevor Noah?

  Man, you don't give me video game vibes.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Damn, I hate that.

• 1:12:20Trevor Noah?

  Also, if you played video games, you'd never finish your art. That's how I know.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  That's very true.

• 1:12:25Trevor Noah?

  Like, I've been to your studio.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:26Trevor Noah?

  You are working, I know video game people, trust me.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  You're like, that's, that's not what's happening in here, right?

• 1:12:31Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no. Video, video games and like, hours and hours in the studio.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:12:36Trevor Noah?

  Do it, no, no, no. Uh, uh, doesn't work.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  That's fair. Do you play? You play?

• 1:12:39Trevor Noah?

  I play, I play my whole life. There's something that I learned from video games that, that like, applies to art. And it's like, it's what they call like passive buffs.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:12:48Trevor Noah?

  So there, there are some things you would apply to a character.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:52Trevor Noah?

  That are obvious and easy to see. Like what, like a sword? Yeah, here's a sword. Right. The sword is easy to understand. You have the sword. Right. But then you'd have like a buff. And a buff would be you are going to be twenty percent stronger now. Wow, yeah. Now, you don't necessarily notice the twenty percent stronger in every single encounter, but it does make the game easier and it makes a difference. Right, right. And I remember coming back from Ukraine, traveling in back into like the world, going, oh damn, this is what art does. Art is like a passive buff to society. Oh, I love this. Yeah, it's true. You know what I mean? It's true. You tr- you stand in a train station, you stand in an airport, you stand at a bus stop, you stand anywhere, any liminal space. It's there.

• 1:13:37Trevor Noah?

  That has no art. Okay.

• 1:13:41Trevor Noah?

  Watch how much you don't feel. Right. And it's a difficult thing to notice because noticing absence, as you were saying earlier. Yeah. Is is extremely difficult. It is hard. You know, it's very difficult to go, I'm noticing nothing, that nothing is here. Yes, yes. Sometimes it's even difficult to notice what is there, but when you look at art, when art is, when you're not even like looking at it, right? Yeah. It's doing things to you. Oh, it is. So it's impossible to walk through the Sistine Chapel. And be unaffected. Yeah, and not have like wonder. It's not possible. You know, this is, like, it doesn't matter what the painting is. No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't, it doesn't matter whether you know anything about it. I I like, I don't even, I don't know anything about art. Yes. But like when I look at a Rembrandt. Yes. And I didn't even know it's a Rembrandt. That's right. I just go like, where's that field? Yes, exactly.

• 1:14:26Trevor Noah?

  What is, what is that place? You take interest, right? And you know who I realize knows this and has not robbed us of it, but they're very slick about it, is the advertising industry. Yes, they do. Yes. Because now billboards are our art. Oh, absolutely. Right? So when you travel somewhere, you see Coca-Cola. That's right. You see, you know, like all these. The story, the optics. It's like everything shining on a billboard. Oh, absolutely. Shining on a billboard, shining on a billboard, you're in Times Square. Yes. And they know the passive power of it. They know. Yes. That in that moment, you may not go Coca-Cola. But if they keep, if you keep seeing that red. Somewhere along the line. Right. You're gonna be thirsty and you're like, man, I really feel like a Coke. Yes. And they go, thank you, we got you. And now I think if Coca-Cola can make you crave a Coke. Yeah. By putting up a billboard. Yeah.

• 1:15:09Trevor Noah?

  Then an artist can make you crave hope by putting up a billboard. Do you know what I'm saying? I like that. Okay, so I'm gonna complicate that. I I like it.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  I think it's a great opportunity to think about the difference between advertising and art. And it's really simple in that advertising, even design, they solve a problem. They answer a question.

• 1:15:32Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:15:34Trevor Noah?

  That they've sometimes created.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, they've created the question, but they answer it. That's the goal. Art is interested in the question.

• 1:15:42Trevor Noah?

  Oh, OK, I like this.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  So we'll say design, the goal is to solve a problem.

• 1:15:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Art is to create, create the question.

• 1:15:52Trevor Noah?

  Huh.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think that that's, that's the difference. And I think that's also why people are sometimes intimidated by it. But it's like listening to you tell jokes. Sometimes there's so many levels in the joke that it can, it can be really funny if you understand all the resonance.

• 1:16:10Trevor Noah?

  That's true, yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  But you don't have to get those deeper levels.

• 1:16:13Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:16:13Speaker 02

  It can also just be funny on level one.

• 1:16:16Trevor Noah?

  You told me that about arts.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:16:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  What did I teach you about art, Trevor?

• 1:16:19Trevor Noah?

  Art is the most.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  This is really sweet.

• 1:16:20Trevor Noah?

  Yo, art is the most intimidating world I've ever come across.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:25Trevor Noah?

  And I still.

• 1:16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Trevor Noah?

  Still till this day, I'm not even gonna pretend, I just go, that's a nice picture.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  That's all it takes, though.

• 1:16:32Trevor Noah?

  And you, you are the fir-, can I tell you, you were literally the first human being who said to me like, hey, brother, you're like, relax.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's OK.

• 1:16:37Trevor Noah?

  Like, relax, you don't need to know anything about the medium.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:41Trevor Noah?

  You don't need to know anything about the strokes.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:16:44Trevor Noah?

  Or what it evokes.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 1:16:46Trevor Noah?

  Or the symbolism.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:16:47Trevor Noah?

  Or how it relates to another art. You were just like, do you like it?

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Trevor Noah?

  What'd you like? And I'll just be like, I like the picture. You go like, why you like the picture? I'll be like, I don't know, I like that person's eyes. And you're like, oh, let's talk about the eyes.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:16:57Trevor Noah?

  You were literally the first person who did that. And it made me more comfortable just liking art because I like what I'm seeing.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  Well, that, I mean, look, that's, look, I mean, not to be, you know, flattering each other, but that's also what you did with humor. There was a point in life where I thought, oh, I could be a comedian, but I was like, it's not serious enough, though. Like, I wanted, I wanted people to take me seriously. And I don't know, like, as a kid, I thought, well, as a comic, like, you're kind of a clown, you know, like,

• 1:17:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  I didn't really, but it's actually like, it has the space for social critique, for satire. You can get in places that other, um, you know, public figures can't. And you can push that as far as possible. Um, and you're, you're, you're part of some kind of social change. A joke is so trivial on some, some level.

• 1:17:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  It's not a serious thing. Uh, a painting on its own, I mean, it's just an object. Like, it doesn't have any embedded, like, powers, arguably. But then there is a part where that is true, though. There's something true. A joke can be more, it can be profound.

• 1:18:03Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  You know, an object can stay with you. Um, and I think that's the stuff we traffic in. I mean, as you were talking about, um, you know, the, the kind of magic and art or value. You know, I think about like laughter, you know? It's like laughter's democratic. You know, we're coded for laughter.

• 1:18:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we are.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter where you are in the world. Um, I think about like Mr. Bean or something like where there's no language.

• 1:18:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  You know, but I think we, human beings are encoded to appreciate art.

• 1:18:34Trevor Noah?

  I think we are, actually.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  I believe, I mean, my whole existence is predicated on that belief.

• 1:18:39Trevor Noah?

  No, I actually believe we are. We look at it and we feel whether we like it or not.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Yes, it's involuntary.

• 1:18:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  So, um, I think that, you know, part of what I love about being an artist is the way I can reach people is at a very human level.

• 1:18:57Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  It's not about class, race. It's, it's none of those things. In fact, I can be all about my cultural experience and bring people into it that live outside of it. And how marvelous is that?

• 1:19:16Trevor Noah?

  Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this.

• 1:19:19Speaker 03

  Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets and more. No new tools, no extra logins, just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Make work less work. Try Google Workspace with Gemini, A G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 1:19:49Speaker 04

  I've given my blood, my sweat, my tears to this island. What happened here? We came here seeking a great treasure. We've been out here for 14 years.

• 1:19:58Speaker 05

  After centuries of mystery.

• 1:20:00Speaker 04

  You have to hold the proof in your hands.

• 1:20:02Speaker 05

  The lifelong quest.

• 1:20:04Speaker 04

  Time to go get it.

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  Whoa, what the heck?

• 1:20:05Speaker 05

  Has finally paid off.

• 1:20:07Speaker 04

  You found that in the money pit. This is what we've spent our entire lives searching for.

• 1:20:13Speaker 05

  The Curse of Oak Island, new season, Tuesday, November 10th at nine, only on History.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Start your morning with the $6 Mcgriddle's Extra Value Meal. Featuring your choice of a sausage, egg and cheese Mcgriddle's or bacon, egg and cheese Mcgriddle's, plus crispy hash browns and a small premium roast coffee. Sweet, savory, crispy and caffeinated. It's everything your morning ordered, all for just $6. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing at participating McDonald's.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  What, um, what are you working on right now? Because you just, you did a show recently. Yes. How long do you take between? How long does it take you? It takes me about a year to put a show together, a little more. Do you take a break? I don't know you to take breaks. Don't try not to take too many breaks. I mean, this is my own, like, whatever, anxiety. What is that, like, like poverty trauma? Uh, can't claim that entirely.

• 1:21:13Trevor Noah?

  Because I know a lot of, a lot of artists are, and I think this extends to many people, maybe in today's age, but there's a terror that if I step away from the thing for too long, then to go back to the train analogy, it'll move, I'll miss it.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  Okay, well, I have to say this about the train analogy, which I loved. When you were talking about that, I was thinking about like performers that keep trying to stay relevant.

• 1:21:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, chase the train.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  Chasing the train, they're chasing the train. And it's a fool's, it's a fool's area.

• 1:21:41Trevor Noah?

  It can work.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  At some point, you're gonna fall out. You can't go as fast as a train.

• 1:21:45Trevor Noah?

  You, well, here's the thing, you, you might not fall out. But I think there's a compromise in everything you're doing in life.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:53Trevor Noah?

  Right, so keeping up with the train means that in many ways, the train is dictating what you should create and not the other way around.

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  This is the difference between, let's say, an illustrator and an artist. An illustrator is in design, doing the work that they're told to do to tell the story for the deadline, da, da, da, da, da. I can take five years on a painting if I want to. I can take 20 years if I want to.

• 1:22:21Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  I can take one minute if I want to. Because the train and the approval and that, that's not what I'm working for. It's something very personal and very internal. And I set the time. In fact, there is no time in my studio. Here's where the magic happens with art. I had a relationship with everything that goes out of my studio.

• 1:22:43Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  I had an affair with this thing, a love affair, hated it, loved it, brought it back. The whole thing, every time. The whole thing, there's not one thing that I make that I don't obsess over.

• 1:22:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  And so my investment is what makes your investment possible. And I think there's a point in terms of finishing a work where you, you get a feeling that's just like, I think we've had our time.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  You know? You could, you could go in the world now. But art really concludes when it enters the public sphere. Like, I start it, I make it, I have an experience. When it goes out for me, that's when it's, the cycle's sort of complete. You know, it's like, you can, you can write jokes on a pad.

• 1:23:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, until you say them to the audience.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  You have to say it.

• 1:23:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  And it has to land. But like philosophically, like, where does the joke live? Does it live on the page? Or does it live in the delivery?

• 1:23:40Trevor Noah?

  It's always been a tough one to answer, but I I think I think the way I see it is I go.

• 1:23:47Trevor Noah?

  For me at least.

• 1:23:50Trevor Noah?

  The joke exists when I've thought of it.

• 1:23:54Trevor Noah?

  That's when it exists.

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  Oh, this is like a this is this is like a very.

• 1:23:58Trevor Noah?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  A parallel of political conversations.

• 1:24:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but that's literally for me. I go.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  The inception of a joke?

• 1:24:03Trevor Noah?

  Once it once I go huh, that's funny. That's already a joke. I'm the audience of one and I've gone, that is funny. The difficulty and where I think the professionalism comes in.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:12Trevor Noah?

  Is bridging the gap between your brain and mine when we're in a room together.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:17Trevor Noah?

  Can I get your synapses to fire in the exact same way that mine did for you to see why this is funny? And that is where I think great comedians show themselves off.

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:27Trevor Noah?

  They are able to create the same idea of the world.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:33Trevor Noah?

  That they have in your mind. And that is like, ah. That's a that's a that's that's mastery.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you've just explained what artists do. It's the same thing that.

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  This thing is doing something for me.

• 1:24:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  At a personal level. And that experience is authentic and satisfying, so much so that I'm gonna invest all this time and energy.

• 1:24:59Trevor Noah?

  I love that. Okay.

• 1:24:59Speaker 02

  Right? But that's a one on one experience. And then at some point, it has to live in the public space. And when I told you.

• 1:25:07Trevor Noah?

  It's so much harder, though, because you put it out and it's done. If I put it out and it doesn't go well, I'm like, all right, let me take it back in the studio and change a few things.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Trevor Noah?

  You put the painting on the wall.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Trevor Noah?

  Someone goes boo. It's done.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Well, what's beautiful about us is we don't hear the boos. Museums are quite quiet.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  We're like, shush, everyone, quiet.

• 1:25:29Trevor Noah?

  Soft booze.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  Do not boo the artist.

• 1:25:31Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  So the conversation is a little more internal that.

• 1:25:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I but I think I would be more terrified by that. How do you know that somebody likes what you're making?

• 1:25:38Speaker 02

  Stand on stage in Turkey with a.

• 1:25:40Trevor Noah?

  But how do you how do you know that?

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  Twenty thousand people.

• 1:25:42Trevor Noah?

  How do you know that the people don't like, you know?

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  They keep calling you back for the Grammys.

• 1:25:46Trevor Noah?

  We had to cancel the Turkey show.

• 1:25:47Speaker 02

  The fifth call, I'd be terrified.

• 1:25:48Trevor Noah?

  We had to cancel the Turkey show.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Did you cancel it?

• 1:25:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we had to.

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  I saw that.

• 1:25:51Trevor Noah?

  There was a there was a whole.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bring that up.

• 1:25:54Trevor Noah?

  No, no, I mean, I'm not like.

• 1:25:56Speaker 02

  What happened?

• 1:25:57Trevor Noah?

  This happens sometimes. We had to cancel shows in Hong Kong, um, in and around the protests, you remember?

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:03Trevor Noah?

  Um, we had to cancel shows.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we canceled shows too, yeah.

• 1:26:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we had to cancel shows in India when there were the farmers protesting.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:10Trevor Noah?

  And then we had to cancel in Turkey now.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  Dude, but let me ask you this. How do you know what's funny in other places?

• 1:26:16Trevor Noah?

  I don't. That's what, that's what I love.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  But why would you get on stage and you don't know that?

• 1:26:20Trevor Noah?

  No, but you see, what I, what I love is finding the thing. So funny is universal, okay?

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:26:27Trevor Noah?

  This is, this is the first and.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  In theory, yes.

• 1:26:29Trevor Noah?

  No, no. It is, we can fight about it all day. Funny is universal. And what I mean by that is everyone in the world experiences funny.

• 1:26:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:37Trevor Noah?

  Rats laugh. Did you know this?

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  I did not know that, and I would have had to come here to find that out.

• 1:26:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, so rats laugh and rats smile.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  What does it sound like?

• 1:26:46Trevor Noah?

  I don't know.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  Okay, that's what I'll find out after this.

• 1:26:48Trevor Noah?

  I've just read the papers on it, right?

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  A rat laugh, okay.

• 1:26:51Trevor Noah?

  So rats laugh.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:26:55Trevor Noah?

  We don't know why they're laughing.

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't.

• 1:26:57Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:26:58Trevor Noah?

  But they're laughing. Humans find something funny everywhere in the world.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Trevor Noah?

  What I love is trying to figure out where their funny is and how my funny can intertwine with it. So I used to, and I still do in some ways, I used to envy American comedians.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Trevor Noah?

  Because American comedians could go anywhere in the world.

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:21Trevor Noah?

  And tell a joke the way they told it in America.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Because people know American culture.

• 1:27:25Trevor Noah?

  The world knows America.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:26Trevor Noah?

  So they would go like, hey man, so, oh man, so I, uh, I voted for George Bush and, uh,

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:32Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, let me tell you something, let me, and the audience isn't like, George Bush, who is, who is this George Bush?

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:27:37Trevor Noah?

  What are you talking about? Who is George?

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:27:39Trevor Noah?

  No, it's like, keep going, tell the joke.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:41Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Trevor Noah?

  But if, as a South African comedian, I would travel somewhere else in the world, and then I would be like, oh man, oh, let me tell you, Julius Malema. Half the people are like, what did you just say?

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't know.

• 1:27:52Trevor Noah?

  Who is that? What is that? So while it was a curse in some ways, it was a blessing in many other ways. Because it meant when I traveled. I would have to spend more time trying to understand what's funny there. Right. What are they thinking? How do you do that? Why are they thinking that? How does their language match up with what funny is or isn't? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, but what do you do? You absorb the culture? I try my best, yeah. Do you just hang around for a while? Yeah, yeah. Like just listen and look at what people are laughing at? Yeah, like my, my least favorite experience doing comedy is traveling to a place and leaving it immediately. I hate that. I don't wanna fly and fly out. Yeah, you like to be there. It takes more of my life, but I like to go there. Eat what the people eat. Yes. See what the people see. Yes. And by the way, have it as my experience.

• 1:28:36Trevor Noah?

  So that by the time I get on stage, whether it's in Amsterdam. Yeah. Or whether it's in Cairo, or whether it's in wherever. I just wanna go on and be like. Man, this is how I feel. About. These alleyways. Right. And the magic happens when they go. Oh, my god, you. You felt that? Like, we feel that too. You felt that? Right. And, and it becomes a magical experience because they go. We even forgot that we feel that. Right. You know? And I remember, I, I, I. I really never appreciated it until it was two people who, who helped, you know, Kevin Hart and, um, and Dave Chappelle. Kevin said to me one day. He was a cl- classic Kevin. Kevin was, he was, he's, we were at a tennis match.

• 1:29:21Trevor Noah?

  And Kevin's like, he's like, he's like, man, Trevor, let me say, let me tell you something, man, let me tell you something, man. He says, man, I'm sick of your bullshit, man, I'm sick of your bullshit. And I was like, what do you mean, Kev? He's like, man, he's like, every, every country I go to, they go, they go, you know who came here? Trevor came here. And they're like, man, you were funny. They're like, oh, man, but Trevor? Oh. Man, he told us jokes about us. And Kevin's like, man, well, this is some bullshit. He lives in America, I live in America. How's you? And Kevin was saying, he's like, I hope you, he said, I hope you appreciate what you have. Yeah. Don't try and be more this, don't try and be, you know what I mean? Right, right. And Dave said the same thing to me as well. We did a comedy festival. That Dave was headlining and then I was in the, the run-up days to, to Dave's show. Yeah. And I think it was like maybe the first comedy festival in the UAE. And. We both performed our shows, and I mean, Dave Chappelle is a master of the craft, yeah, you know?

• 1:30:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. And like afterwards, we're hanging out and Dave says to me, he goes, he goes, man. He says, I'm funny, don't get me wrong. He says, but tonight, I watched you become Dubai's favorite comedian. He said, you weren't, he said, I was Dave Chappelle.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  That's big.

• 1:30:24Trevor Noah?

  But you were their comedian.

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:27Trevor Noah?

  As if you're from here.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:28Trevor Noah?

  And I think that's what I, I don't think it's partially where I'm from as a person, my life growing up.

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  All that.

• 1:30:33Trevor Noah?

  My, you know, everything.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:35Trevor Noah?

  I've always loved this, I, I, I feel like there's something special when you can find a way to use your culinary skills.

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:43Trevor Noah?

  To cook somebody's food for them.

• 1:30:44Speaker 02

  That's right. Oh, that's, that's a great analogy.

• 1:30:47Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  I used to not understand how serious you were about that. I used to say that. After you finished The Daily Show and you were like, I just love to travel and I love to, I was like, oh, he likes to go, like, like, who loves to tour? But you don't just tour, you're like learning.

• 1:31:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  You're like learning the culture and trying to like, understand and apply.

• 1:31:06Trevor Noah?

  I'll tell you why. I think, I think, you know, not, not to make it too existential, but I think it's particularly now because it's in short supply. One of my favorite things I get from traveling the world and meeting people and doing what they're doing is it reminds me there's no one way to be right.

• 1:31:22Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:31:23Trevor Noah?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:31:24Trevor Noah?

  So, there is no one way for a joke to be funny.

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:31:28Trevor Noah?

  There is no one way for a food to be delicious.

• 1:31:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:31:30Trevor Noah?

  You know, early on, just here with the crew, we're talking about like fermented shark meat in Iceland.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:31:36Trevor Noah?

  And, and if, if you're not able to handle, you're like, this is trash, this is disgusting.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:31:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but they're like, no, it's not.

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  I love it. Yeah.

• 1:31:42Trevor Noah?

  And somewhere else, people love caviar. In another part of the world, people are like, what is this?

• 1:31:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:45Trevor Noah?

  So I, I think that reminds me in everything, politics, in the way I relate with other human beings, the way you raise a child.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:55Trevor Noah?

  The way you make the world. I go, oh, don't think that is, there is the way.

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:00Trevor Noah?

  And you know how you know there's not the way? All those cultures and people exist.

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  Look, they're doing fine.

• 1:32:06Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:07Trevor Noah?

  So if there was one way, if there was one way for the world to be.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:10Trevor Noah?

  Every other culture would be dead.

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  Be that way. It's so true.

• 1:32:13Trevor Noah?

  But I find a lot of the time, bigger nations and bigger cultures.

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Trevor Noah?

  Will assume, so they'll, like the British land in Africa and they go, these savages.

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:21Trevor Noah?

  They don't know how to do anything. It's like, yeah, but you found them here doing it.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right.

• 1:32:26Trevor Noah?

  If you didn't find them.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:27Trevor Noah?

  I would agree with you.

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:29Trevor Noah?

  But because you found them, it means they do know how to do something, right?

• 1:32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:33Trevor Noah?

  Same thing when like the Spanish get to South America and Central America.

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 1:32:37Trevor Noah?

  They're like, oh, these people don't know. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. They do know.

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're fine.

• 1:32:41Trevor Noah?

  Cause they're here.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  You know, as a kid, um, I would, my mother would sometimes close, close the door and be like, don't, I'm eating my food. And when she says my food, she means she's eating, got any food.

• 1:32:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  She eats with her hands. And, um, she would say, I mean, we all eat with our hands. We eat fufu and otherwise. And she would say, these people won't understand that why I eat with my hands. They think I need a fork. And for her, she understood the fork as a colonial object.

• 1:33:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  That was.

• 1:33:11Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:33:12Speaker 02

  Unnecessary.

• 1:33:13Trevor Noah?

  I mean, it is unnecessary.

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  It's unnecessary. And she would say, food actually tastes better. I mean, your hands are tactile. You're experiencing the texture of the food and you're ingesting the food.

• 1:33:23Trevor Noah?

  Did she know that based on research? Cause that is true.

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  She lived it. I mean, she lived it. I mean, she grew up.

• 1:33:27Trevor Noah?

  I'm saying she was just saying this intuitively.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Well, she said, we've eaten our food for a thousand. Yes, exactly.

• 1:33:32Trevor Noah?

  She was doing that magic mom thing. I mean, they do that.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  She was, she's saying.

• 1:33:35Trevor Noah?

  They'll say something that like a university will release in a paper.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  Oh, totally.

• 1:33:39Trevor Noah?

  Researchers have found eating food with your hands increases and your mom is like.

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is exactly right. But you know, to go back to what you were saying about the cultures, man. Uh, you remind me of going to, a few years ago, I went to actually Israel. And, uh, from there I went to South Africa and I remember going to Hector Peterson Square. I mean, the story of them teaching Afrikaans and, and after that I went to Australia. And when I came off the plane. They apprehended me for a while. And here I am thinking like, oh, I'm taking a break. I'm, you know, I've worked hard enough. Like, let me treat myself. And here this Australian guy is asking me what I'm gonna be doing. How long am I here?

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  And then I'm starting to imagine myself as like, you know, some, like, do I have a dubious motive for me? Like, the questioning went on so long, I'm like, bro, this has been 20 minutes. Like, I'm 24 hours away from home. And so that trip showed me, and it was actually a relief, that injustices against mankind are as old as mankind itself. It blew my mind some kind of way to realize that, oh, no, this is like.

• 1:34:56Trevor Noah?

  This is it. This is the human experience.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  Also, it's, it's like tough to be black everywhere on some level. Like, it's troubled.

• 1:35:05Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  Traveling taught me that making art about my lived experience can be resonant because everyone has some version of what those challenges are. You know, when you think about the universality of a laugh or a painting from any far-off part of the world.

• 1:35:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  I wanna see it. I wanna experience it. I can engage it. I can look at paintings that were made 1,000 years ago and have an experience.

• 1:35:36Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  I don't know, the humor works that way. It doesn't always age well.

• 1:35:40Speaker 02

  Like, is there a timeless joke?

• 1:35:43Trevor Noah?

  I think so.

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:35:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  That's still funny?

• 1:35:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, completely.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Like 100 years later?

• 1:35:49Trevor Noah?

  I think so.

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  Oh, this is.

• 1:35:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I think so. I think some, I think some jokes exist in the human experience. And so they will always be funny.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:35:59Trevor Noah?

  You know? I'm sure there's a joke that Ali Wong has told about having a child.

• 1:36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:05Trevor Noah?

  That can live forever. For as long as women will have a child, I think that joke will be funny.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  You know, yeah.

• 1:36:10Trevor Noah?

  There are some jokes, though, that are about a thing that may be as short-lived as the thing is.

• 1:36:15Speaker 02

  Because the thing is gone.

• 1:36:16Trevor Noah?

  But there are some jokes that I do think they will just travel. As long as the people understand the context, that joke will continuously be.

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  I mean, as Africans, we know this, right? Proverbs.

• 1:36:29Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  Like, they still tickle people. They've been around. Just saw Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal performing Shakespeare.

• 1:36:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  Word for word. And people laughed, you know? So things can be timeless. Art, art certainly is. But hu- humor can be.

• 1:36:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  But comedians.

• 1:36:48Trevor Noah?

  And it also just depends. I think of it like fashion as well. It might just come around. It might come in waves. It might go in waves. A simple example is look at content that goes viral in the world at different times. There were TV shows that were hot in America.

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:01Trevor Noah?

  And then 20 years later, become hot somewhere else.

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  Really hot.

• 1:37:04Trevor Noah?

  But Americans are like, oh, we don't, oh, we don't think that's funny anymore.

• 1:37:08Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:37:08Trevor Noah?

  But that place is like, we love it.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  We love it.

• 1:37:10Trevor Noah?

  We love it. The way you said the black man cannot come inside. Ha ha, what a great joke.

• 1:37:15Speaker 02

  You know, I saw recently these Africans that play, is it Kenyans or they play country music? Have you seen this?

• 1:37:22Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  But they love it. They have these parties and it's like all these Africans wearing like top to bottom, like cowboy gear.

• 1:37:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  And they, but it's a marriage of the cultures. I love this stuff. When culture can.

• 1:37:34Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, that's my favorite thing.

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  This is what we live for, right? I mean, I think as artists, I mean, that's what we really are trying to mine is like the human experience. I mean, and it could get dark because you, you gotta go inside. When I first started painting, I would, I would make paintings and people would say, and I would have like, you know, an athletic guy, a bright pattern background, and people would say, Kehinde Wiley. And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. But I couldn't, that, he had already occupied that space.

• 1:38:04Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 1:38:05Speaker 02

  And so.

• 1:38:05Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  I was like, optically, the things I'm putting together are adding up to what I don't want. Like, and so the only way forward for me was to get into, okay, well, what's the feeling about this image that, and it's like, oh, vulnerability is what I'm interested in. Because when I experienced, yeah, when I experienced racism.

• 1:38:24Trevor Noah?

  Distilling it down to the core feeling as opposed to.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  The, what it looks like.

• 1:38:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:29Speaker 02

  Right? And I'm not saying that that's what he's doing either. But I'm just saying like, that was for me, my salvation is to get inside the experience. And because everyone knows what it feels like to be vulnerable.

• 1:38:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Speaker 02

  Everyone doesn't know what it feels like to live in my body. And so, to me, I don't know, in my practice, I try to, I try to do that inside-outside thing as much as possible.

• 1:38:54Trevor Noah?

  I think you succeed.

• 1:38:55Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:38:56Trevor Noah?

  And even if people don't feel it.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:38:58Trevor Noah?

  The pictures are pretty, man.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Hey, man, that's an insult in my world.

• 1:39:01Trevor Noah?

  No, man, the pictures are pretty.

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  The pictures are pretty.

• 1:39:03Trevor Noah?

  The pictures are pretty, and I think we should allow people to accept that, like, you know why? I'll tell you why, because whether it's the Mona Lisa.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:12Trevor Noah?

  Whether it's, you know, David and God, or whatever it is.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:17Trevor Noah?

  The pictures are pretty. I know, I know, I know people will like fight about it or whatever.

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  But ultimately.

• 1:39:24Trevor Noah?

  Yo, the pictures are pretty, they're beautiful thing.

• 1:39:27Speaker 02

  They're beautiful, we traffic in beauty.

• 1:39:28Trevor Noah?

  They come with a story, and they come with a meaning, and there might be layers, and then like an art historian will tell you why it's significant that that road leads nowhere.

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:39:37Trevor Noah?

  Or why those hills make that shit, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:40Trevor Noah?

  But, we should never forget.

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:39:43Trevor Noah?

  That it does look pretty.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  I say that about.

• 1:39:45Trevor Noah?

  You have beautiful art.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:39:47Trevor Noah?

  That also comes with a lot of meaning, but I'm just saying.

• 1:39:49Speaker 02

  Now you're throwing that in for me.

• 1:39:50Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm not, I'm just saying, as somebody who doesn't always understand meanings of, I don't, I'm not learning enough.

• 1:39:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:56Trevor Noah?

  I just look at it, I go like, damn, that's dope.

• 1:39:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Trevor Noah?

  And I think, I think you shouldn't take that for granted, it's nice to have something where someone just goes like, damn, that's dope.

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  No, I do, I mean, I'm joking, it's absolutely true, I mean, beauty is definitely a strategy for me. Because, but back to your analogy about the train, we're trying to get your attention. I, I operate in the glance economy.

• 1:40:17Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:40:17Speaker 02

  Right, you, you don't need to stand in front of a painting for an hour to have an experience, in fact.

• 1:40:22Trevor Noah?

  Yo, let me tell you something, one of the biggest reasons I don't like going to museums and art galleries.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:40:29Trevor Noah?

  Especially if someone from a museum or art gallery knows I'm there.

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they come talk to you.

• 1:40:33Trevor Noah?

  Is because they'll, they'll come take me on tours and stuff.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  They shouldn't do that with you.

• 1:40:36Trevor Noah?

  And then what happens is.

• 1:40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:38Trevor Noah?

  I don't know how long I need to stand in front of an art piece to make it seem like I've fully appreciated it. Do you know how much pressure there? So I'll stand there and then someone will come stand next to me. And they'll go stunning, isn't it? And I go, oh, yeah, gorgeous, gorgeous. And then they stand. And I stand. And then I go, if I walk away now, it looks like I'm not engaged.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:41:05Trevor Noah?

  And then I'll like zoom, I'll like come forward and I'll be like, wow. Ah, fascinating. Oh, man.

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  Dude, this is a lot of performance.

• 1:41:12Trevor Noah?

  That's it's too much stress.

• 1:41:13Speaker 02

  All right, here's what I'm gonna do.

• 1:41:13Trevor Noah?

  That's why I like looking at art with you, because I can literally just say to you straight up, I can go, I like those pants.

• 1:41:18Speaker 02

  That's right. It's true.

• 1:41:19Trevor Noah?

  And I think it's important to be able to do that.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  Okay, that's very important and I'm gonna absolve you of that pressure. You, you may never do that again. You may also say, I don't get it. I'm not into it. That's a good thing, too. That's a reaction and in art, that's totally possible. There's some art that just bothers me. But it bothers me.

• 1:41:41Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:41:42Speaker 02

  And that's a good thing. So this, I think the complication with the word pretty is that it flattens for me. Beauty is to be more expansive than pretty.

• 1:41:51Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I'll take I.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  Right? So pretty is just purely aesthetics. It's just pretty.

• 1:41:57Trevor Noah?

  But beauty is layered.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  Whereas you can be beautiful inside and out.

• 1:42:02Trevor Noah?

  Well, I think a lot of your paintings are beautiful on the outside, if people don't know what's on the inside. That's what I'm saying.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  I'll take that.

• 1:42:08Trevor Noah?

  I'm, no, but I'm serious, man. And like for real, I, I think. Yeah, man, I, what I've always loved about your work is I cannot separate your work from you.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:17Trevor Noah?

  Which in my world is a compliment.

• 1:42:19Speaker 02

  Yes, that's, that's a high compliment. I love that. I worked hard to get there.

• 1:42:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, man, because, because I, I. I don't just enjoy the stories you tell. I enjoy them immensely, but I, I enjoy. How you tell you in the art.

• 1:42:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:34Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:35Trevor Noah?

  I, I, I love that people get to know a little bit of you, people, and you get to tell people a little bit of us.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:42Trevor Noah?

  You know, I, I, I love that, like Africans have stories in your art. I love that black people have stories in your art. I love that there are some people in America and around the world.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:52Trevor Noah?

  Who have only had a black person in their house.

• 1:42:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:57Trevor Noah?

  In your art.

• 1:42:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:58Trevor Noah?

  They've never had a physical.

• 1:43:00Speaker 02

  Physical black person.

• 1:43:01Trevor Noah?

  But there are black people on their walls. And, and you know what? Their kids grow up looking at those black faces. And, and I mean this like in a real, real way.

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  We have this conversation.

• 1:43:10Trevor Noah?

  And I'm, I'm really appreciative of that way. I just go like, damn, you did that.

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  Well, but it's true. Like, think about that. And so I've been asked also, well, how do you feel about that if they're those people that don't have direct engagement with black people in their lives, but want to acquire images of black people? And I say, there's something beautiful that you find about the experience. And as long as I put enough truth in the work, where the work is not merely to perform aesthetically, they're part of the conversation. And I think it's a good thing.

• 1:43:45Trevor Noah?

  Artists, hey man, let me tell you something. The first artist who painted white Jesus.

• 1:43:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:43:50Trevor Noah?

  Changed the world.

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  Immensely.

• 1:43:53Trevor Noah?

  Changed the world.

• 1:43:53Speaker 02

  Changed our world, certainly changed the continent drastically. Right.

• 1:43:56Trevor Noah?

  Think about it. Think about history as we know it.

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  Okay, but.

• 1:43:58Trevor Noah?

  Would it be the same if that painter kept Jesus as dark skinned as Jesus was? Just think about that for a moment, right? Because we, it would be a whole lot harder for people to travel to other places and do the things that they did to those people when those people look like Jesus now.

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  It's very true.

• 1:44:15Trevor Noah?

  So that's where I'm saying like.

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  That's a big thing.

• 1:44:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  But I'll, but I'll also say to complicate that, there are pictures of black Jesus who, that have been created long, long, long time ago. That's that market conversation about that one guy that painted long hair Arkansas Jesus.

• 1:44:31Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  Like, why that became as popular is because of a machine. It's not because of the painting. So when we go to, say Ethiopia, and we see Orthodox Christ, he looks very different than Arkansas Christ.

• 1:44:49Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  That we know in America or the Western Jesus. But that one didn't travel because it didn't function as propaganda.

• 1:44:56Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  So I don't want to say that that artist made this move. The machine moved that artist's work. Right? So that's, that's why that firewall is so important.

• 1:45:09Trevor Noah?

  Before we wrap this up, I, I just realized it's something I've never asked you and I've always wanted to. I always remember this when we're not together.

• 1:45:14Speaker 02

  This is gonna be good.

• 1:45:15Trevor Noah?

  Have you ever heard the conspiracy theory that the CIA invented American contemporary art? Or abstract art, or forgive me if I'm using the wrong term.

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 1:45:24Trevor Noah?

  Have you heard the conspiracy theory?

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  I don't know it well. I've heard some things about them being involved in using it with, yeah.

• 1:45:30Trevor Noah?

  So apparently, it's just because you, when you said machine.

• 1:45:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:45:33Trevor Noah?

  Post-World War II. The world is now forming itself. It's becoming this new space and America is now a superpower.

• 1:45:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:45:42Trevor Noah?

  In a way that it wasn't before World War II, right? So America was big, but it wasn't like the power of the world, right?

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Early 40s.

• 1:45:48Trevor Noah?

  Now America has the atom bomb.

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:45:50Trevor Noah?

  The world is looking at America different. America's this thing. And America, this is all the story, by the way. America realizes that while it is seen as the military powerhouse of the world, it is not considered the cultural powerhouse of the world, right?

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:46:04Trevor Noah?

  So America starts going, okay, we gotta get culture out there. And it's doing it in multiple ways. Music and, you know, film is burgeoning at that time and it's growing. But the, the upper-minded echelons say, yes, but America will never have arts.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:18Trevor Noah?

  Right? Artists of Europe.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 1:46:20Trevor Noah?

  Of the sophisticated.

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  All the art of America.

• 1:46:22Trevor Noah?

  And America is a young baby.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:46:25Trevor Noah?

  And the story goes that the CIA is then tasked with creating.

• 1:46:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:30Trevor Noah?

  An art market. And so they like start telling people, just make shit and we'll buy it. And they go in, they buy it, they inflate the price, they get galleries buying it, they get a market going. It becomes this whole big thing. The story becomes the art, the art's blowing, it's burgeoning as well. And then the, the thing is created. Have you heard anything about this?

• 1:46:47Speaker 02

  I tell you why I think that's complete BS. Because it's great, it's great fun.

• 1:46:52Trevor Noah?

  It's a fantastic story.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  I like it. I mean, for a dinner party, it's wonderful. I'd stand around and listen to it.

• 1:46:59Speaker 02

  Remember what we said before about the belief that human beings are encoded to create?

• 1:47:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  Creating art at all levels and all ways has been ubiquitous with human beings. The art market really didn't get created until the seventies. And there was a guy named Skull who owned taxicabs. He was a wealthy guy who decided to go to Sotheby's, which at the time was only really selling antiques and, you know, cars and other things. So he had bought art from all these artists in New York, probably many from Leo Castelli. And he decided, I'm just gonna resell this stuff. And he did it at these high prices. And Robert Rauschenberg was, was there at the sale and like shoved them.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  And like they had this match and there's a photograph of the moment when Rauschenberg. And so Rauschenberg says, hey, man, you bought that for me from this and like you took advantage of me. And Skull says, I did you a favor. And so inside our world of contemporary art, that's the origins that we know. That's the moment. Yes, that's the moment when New York City started to become the center of the art world. So that's, I mean, in terms of art market. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a bit more plausible than this, because America's, I mean, you know,

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  the government is not, I mean, they don't even support artists well in this country at all. So they, that just gives them too much credit. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I wanna believe that so much. Like, if you told me that happened in Canada, I, I might, I might believe that more. Because Canada supports their artists, they understand culture. If you told me this happened in Korea, look at what they're doing with K-pop. The government is like helping underwrite that thing. That's cultural export, but America?

• 1:49:08Speaker 02

  Wow, that's a stretch. Great story, though.

• 1:49:11Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  I like the story.

• 1:49:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, as we said in the beginning, doesn't matter whether it's true or not.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:49:16Trevor Noah?

  We just need a story.

• 1:49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 1:49:18Trevor Noah?

  This is fun, Dee.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Trevor Noah?

  Thank you very much for coming. Uh, is there any way where people can see your art right now?

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Yes, uh.

• 1:49:23Trevor Noah?

  Like, where should they go? Other than, which, wait, which station? Let's start with that.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:49:27Trevor Noah?

  That's the most important.

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, the Derek Forger Underground Museum of the People.

• 1:49:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:31Speaker 02

  Is at, uh, 145th Street on the two and/or three stop.

• 1:49:37Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  At 145th Street, so that's cool.

• 1:49:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  So that's there. Um, I have a show I'm working on in September.

• 1:49:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:43Speaker 02

  In Los Angeles, which is gonna be great, at David Kordansky Gallery. Thinking only about music.

• 1:49:48Trevor Noah?

  And people can just go to these things, right?

• 1:49:49Speaker 02

  They can just come, dude.

• 1:49:50Trevor Noah?

  They can just walk in.

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Please come to the show, just come. It costs no money. Uh, it's wonderful, so I wish more people went to galleries and museums. So I wanna encourage people to just go. This show is all about the black voice. And, uh, I think this is a time where we need to raise our voices. I think the black voice is emblematic of so many things, uh, around democracy that are really, is really powerful, so hopefully get you to LA.

• 1:50:15Trevor Noah?

  I'll do, yeah, I'll pop by.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:50:17Trevor Noah?

  I'll be there. I travel, man, you don't.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you travel a lot, my friend.

• 1:50:20Trevor Noah?

  I travel.

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks for having me, Trevor.

• 1:50:22Trevor Noah?

  Derek Forger, thank you.

• 1:50:23Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:50:30Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

• 1:51:09Speaker 04

  I've given my blood, my sweat, my tears to this island. What happened here?

• 1:51:15Speaker 04

  We came here seeking a great treasure. We've been out here for 14 years.

• 1:51:19Speaker 05

  After centuries of mystery,

• 1:51:21Speaker 04

  you have to hold the proof in your hands.

• 1:51:23Speaker 05

  The lifelong quest...

• 1:51:24Speaker 04

  Time to go get it.

• 1:51:25Speaker 03

  Whoa, what the heck?

• 1:51:26Speaker 05

  ...has finally paid off.

• 1:51:27Speaker 04

  You found that in the money pit. This is what we've spent our entire lives searching for.

• 1:51:33Speaker 05

  The Curse of Oak Island. New season, Tuesday, November 10 at 9, only on History.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Start your morning with the $6 Mcgriddle's Extra Value Meal. Featuring your choice of a sausage, egg, and cheese Mcgriddle's or bacon, egg, and cheese Mcgriddle's. Plus, crispy hash browns and a small premium roast coffee. Sweet, savory, crispy, and caffeinated. It's everything your morning ordered, all for just $6. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing at participating McDonald's.