Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 22: The Girls with the Episode Twenty Two About this episode It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 22: The Girls with the Episode Twenty Two, when they discussed murders from the 1500s. Georgia covered the Princes in the Tower and Karen shared the Sawney Bean Legend. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!
Transcript 13,224 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:06 Georgia Hardstark? In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.
0:09 Karen Kilgariff? When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.
0:16 Georgia Hardstark? And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.
0:23 Karen Kilgariff? This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.
0:27 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.
0:31 Karen Kilgariff? Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.
0:35 Georgia Hardstark? Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.
0:41 Karen Kilgariff? This holiday season, celebrate the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all.
0:45 Georgia Hardstark? Because the best gifts don't just look beautiful, they mean something, too.
0:49 Karen Kilgariff? From engraveable pieces that tell your story, to festive charms that capture special memories, to stunning lab-grown diamonds, Pandora has meaningful jewelry for the people who inspire you and have been there through it all.
1:00 Georgia Hardstark? Give a piece that says exactly what words can't.
1:02 Karen Kilgariff? Pandora, more than a gift.
1:04 Georgia Hardstark? Shop new styles in-store or online at pandora.net.
1:08 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:26 Georgia Hardstark? Hello.
1:28 Karen Kilgariff? And welcome.
1:29 Georgia Hardstark? To Rewind with Karen in Georgia.
1:31 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. This is our new Wednesday episode where we travel back in time and we trick you into coming with us, not unlike Back to the Future.
1:38 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, Back to the Future, it's Back to the Future with a lot more murder.
1:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's the movie you've always wanted. We'll give you some case updates on the stories we covered, maybe a few apologies, and that sense of joy that could only be experienced before the pandemic.
1:54 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, RIP.
1:55 Karen Kilgariff? Remember?
1:56 Georgia Hardstark? Everything.
1:56 Karen Kilgariff? Remember joy?
1:57 Georgia Hardstark? No. So today, we're revisiting episode 22, which we named The Girls With The Episode, which we named The Girls With The Episode 22.
2:08 Karen Kilgariff? We were doing fine.
2:09 Georgia Hardstark? We were fine.
2:10 Karen Kilgariff? We were great.
2:11 Georgia Hardstark? It came out on Monday, June 27, 2016.
2:15 Karen Kilgariff? So hop in, Marty's. Now we can all be day one listeners.
2:18 Georgia Hardstark? Marty!
2:20 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, let's get into it. We're gonna listen to the intro of episode 22. And just a warning, we do talk about eating disorders, our own eating disorders in this conversation, so please take care.
2:34 Karen Kilgariff? Welcome, everybody. To My Favorite Murder, the podcast, the highly professional true crime podcast that asks the question, what if two women who were slightly interested in true crime and had free time on their hands and liked to have conversations and make up facts and not do a lot of research, how to podcast? We need to start this over.
2:59 Georgia Hardstark? No, I love it.
3:02 Karen Kilgariff? No, you do one.
3:04 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, everyone. This is My Favorite Murder, a podcast where we talk about our favorite murders, which is kind of insulting to people who have been murdered, but we don't mean it that way. We're trying to be fucking cool and interested and like, we have so much like empathy.
3:20 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
3:20 Georgia Hardstark? That's our, that whole thing was our tagline.
3:23 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
3:24 Georgia Hardstark? Are we, are you blowing this?
3:25 Karen Kilgariff? Should we do another one?
3:27 Georgia Hardstark? Are you just gonna keep doing that, like?
3:29 Karen Kilgariff? Welcome to What the Fuck, starring Marc Maron.
3:35 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God, our listenership just went up so high.
3:37 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my God. We'll steal listeners from Maron.
3:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
3:41 Karen Kilgariff? We'll convert them to our way of thinking about murder.
3:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yep, which is with very little fact.
3:47 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
3:47 Georgia Hardstark? How are you?
3:48 Karen Kilgariff? Which is just kind of conversational. I'm good. It's nice to see you. I saw you, Georgia, last night briefly at a comedy show where there was no air conditioning. And we both looked like we had, we were crossing paths in a sauna.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:03 Karen Kilgariff? Essentially is what it looked like.
4:04 Georgia Hardstark? Well, if the podcast, I'm not sure, I'm not for sure, but if this is coming out a day late.
4:08 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
4:09 Georgia Hardstark? It's because we normally record on Monday, but my apartment was so fucking disgustingly hot and I, and I don't, and I have TV money. I have base, I have, I have cooking channel money.
4:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you have TV money, which is the, which isn't what TV money used to be. It's now radio money.
4:29 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So I live in a one-bedroom apartment with no fucking air conditioning. That's what I'm trying, and like.
4:34 Karen Kilgariff? And on Monday and Sunday. It was like 106.
4:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:38 Karen Kilgariff? It was over 100 degrees in Los Angeles.
4:41 Georgia Hardstark? And so my, my living room was like, like a, it was like a jacuzzi. It felt like a jacuzzi.
4:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:45 Georgia Hardstark? So we're doing it instead on Wednesday and we're sorry, but.
4:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. It's this, it, it's a weather delay. It's a legit weather delay.
4:52 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:53 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, and a lot of Los Angeles is being affected this way because of this stupid comedy show. Uh, I don't know if their air conditioning broke or if they had some kind of blackout or brown out or something, but they couldn't, so it was like a full on comedy show with a full audience. They had to open the side door. When I was on stage.
5:10 Georgia Hardstark? There's nothing.
5:11 Karen Kilgariff? Cop cars went by and ruined my Bjork bit.
5:14 Georgia Hardstark? Your Bjork bit was so good.
5:16 Karen Kilgariff? It was, people did not laugh at all. And I wonder if it just because it was like two cop cars or an ambulance, whatever was going by.
5:23 Georgia Hardstark? Did you hear me loudly cackling in the back?
5:25 Karen Kilgariff? Was that you?
5:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. I'm supportive with, I, I learned a long time ago from someone who used to, like, I know in comedy, should I say who it is?
5:33 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
5:34 Georgia Hardstark? Ed Salazar.
5:35 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yeah.
5:36 Georgia Hardstark? Who's like a sweet baby angel. Wouldn't, he, I hated being near him when he was at a comedy show because he would laugh super loud and clap when he laughed. Which like laugh clapping is my least favorite thing in the world. And he had this like ha, ha, like loud laugh.
5:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
5:50 Georgia Hardstark? One day I was like, what the fuck? And he was like, I'm being supportive of my friends.
5:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
5:54 Georgia Hardstark? I want them to know when they're on stage that I am laughing out loud.
5:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:58 Georgia Hardstark? And making people around me laugh too. And I was like, oh.
6:01 Karen Kilgariff? That's why I do it too.
6:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
6:02 Karen Kilgariff? You like get trained as a stand-up that you have to let your friends, you know the feeling that they're having on stage, which is usually, uh, the world hates my guts. And you're kind of trying to earn back from that below zero feeling.
6:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
6:16 Karen Kilgariff? And so when you're, when you are genuinely make your comedian friends laugh in the audience, they know they have to let you know.
6:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
6:22 Karen Kilgariff? Cause that's basically saying, don't stop doing that bit.
6:24 Georgia Hardstark? Right. There's no like, there's no under your breath guffaw. It's like.
6:28 Karen Kilgariff? No, no.
6:28 Georgia Hardstark? It's like ha, ha, which I fucking love and I do now. And I'm like, I'll do it so loud and I don't care.
6:36 Karen Kilgariff? Now I'm thinking there were a couple of moments where I was laughing at a certain laugh and I'm pretty sure it was you.
6:42 Georgia Hardstark? Echo.
6:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
6:44 Georgia Hardstark? Is that it?
6:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, cuz it almost sounded sarcastic. But I was like, don't go into how you think a person is sarcastically laughing at you when that's probably not happening.
6:53 Georgia Hardstark? I need a changer. I'll go, "Ha."
6:55 Karen Kilgariff? Well, now that I know that he was gonna make me laugh, instead of being defensive, because someone did make a weird... I did, the first joke I did in the, as the laughter was ebbing, cuz the first joke went fine, then someone, and it sounded like a drunk dude, went, "Yeah." And it was that kinda thing that makes me wanna jump off the stage and strangle someone.
7:17 Georgia Hardstark? Hold on, though. Was that in the back?
7:19 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know.
7:19 Georgia Hardstark? Because there was a joke you did about the Yucca Corridor.
7:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
7:23 Georgia Hardstark? Where you used to live in Hollywood.
7:25 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
7:25 Georgia Hardstark? And you went, "I lived in the Yucca Corridor," and there was a guy in front of me who like, went, "Yeah." Genuinely was like, "You used to live there." And I'm from LA almost, and I didn't know what that was. So I think that maybe that's who it was.
7:38 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, I know what you're talking about, and that was like, he was trying to support because, but that was the setup of a joke. It wasn't the punchline. This was after the punchline, and it was basically someone making a sarcastic comment like, "I kind of don't agree with you," is what it sounded like.
7:54 Georgia Hardstark? Can I tell you one of my, like, this moment I go back to? You know the shamy is like, the next day after you were drinking, you're like, "I did this thing and I'm so ashamed of it."
8:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, oh, yeah.
8:02 Georgia Hardstark? I have one from like, 2007.
8:04 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh.
8:05 Georgia Hardstark? That I still like, think about. About, I was at a comedy show and I went, "Nope," at something. And I wanna, and it was a friend who was on stage, but it was still like, and I remember a couple comedians that I'm friends with turned around to see who said that. And I, I still think of it and get this like, coochie twinge of like, of shame, you know, that like, "Ooh, can't believe I did that."
8:29 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my god, that sounds, that is, that in a nutshell is what I was like when I was drinking. Although...
8:35 Georgia Hardstark? I was drunk.
8:36 Karen Kilgariff? I would never have a twinge about it. I would be like, "And that's the least I'm gonna say."
8:41 Georgia Hardstark? Right, you're lucky. I'm not...
8:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
8:43 Georgia Hardstark? That's why I kinda try not to get too drunk at comedy shows, cuz like, I don't wanna like... Fucking say anything.
8:48 Karen Kilgariff? No, I know. It's, it's, uh, it's, for me, it was a lot of bad behavior would take place. Cause like at the old Largo, we would stand in the back and then the comedian would be onstage. There would be these people that paid money and waited in line.
9:02 Georgia Hardstark? Eating dinner.
9:03 Karen Kilgariff? Eating dinner to watch the show and then the comics would stand in the back and talk to each other while other people.
9:08 Georgia Hardstark? We really stood next to each other back there.
9:09 Karen Kilgariff? I'm sure we did, right?
9:10 Georgia Hardstark? My friend and I were like, we don't have dinner. We're like the cool ones who go in the back and stand.
9:14 Karen Kilgariff? You'd stand by the sound booth?
9:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:15 Karen Kilgariff? So here's what I used to do and maybe you remember this. Cause I, this was, I stopped drinking right when that, that show started.
9:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:23 Karen Kilgariff? Um, we would all be talking and I would of course be laughing at like, not at the comic, but at things my friends were saying. And if anybody would turn around who was standing in the audience area.
9:34 Georgia Hardstark? To be like, shut the fuck up.
9:35 Karen Kilgariff? I'd literally go, turn around. Uh huh. Like a high school bully.
9:39 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's scary.
9:39 Karen Kilgariff? It was one of my favorite things to do. Imagine how broken I am inside.
9:43 Georgia Hardstark? You would have hated me. You would have been so mean to me if we had met back then.
9:46 Karen Kilgariff? Are you the kind of person that would turn around and try to give me a dirty look?
9:50 Georgia Hardstark? No. I think if one of my friends are onstage and someone's talking a lot, I'll do it and be like, you know, shut the fuck up.
9:57 Karen Kilgariff? I probably would have enjoyed that.
9:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:59 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's the passive aggression. I was just obnoxious.
10:02 Georgia Hardstark? I don't think you would have liked me because I was like a hipster, like an anorexic hipster.
10:05 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
10:06 Georgia Hardstark? I like rode my Vespa to, I'm not kidding, I rode my Vespa to Largo to watch like, alternative comedians.
10:16 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, yeah, I probably wouldn't have liked you.
10:17 Georgia Hardstark? I was like 21.
10:18 Karen Kilgariff? Well, I wouldn't have liked you on the surface.
10:20 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
10:21 Karen Kilgariff? But also I-
10:22 Georgia Hardstark? But I wasn't confident enough to like, be cool.
10:24 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
10:25 Georgia Hardstark? Around you. The way I was when we met, when I was in, not anorexic anymore and in my 30s.
10:30 Karen Kilgariff? Well, you had your, you had your own, you know, identity going.
10:34 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
10:36 Karen Kilgariff? Um, but I, I have, in my opinion, anorexia and, uh, my eating disorder are very similar where it's just, it's the equal opposite. Where it's just, it's a weird body.
10:48 Georgia Hardstark? Like binging? Is that what you think you have?
10:50 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
10:50 Georgia Hardstark? Is that what you think you have? That was so mean. Is that what you think you have?
10:54 Karen Kilgariff? See, we have so much in common. Is that what you're claiming?
10:59 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
11:00 Karen Kilgariff? It's a total cat party.
11:02 Georgia Hardstark? It's, oh god, this is a mess right now. I got a kitten, I'm fostering a kitten and my cats are fucking rebelling and I'm sorry and-
11:10 Karen Kilgariff? No, it's fine.
11:10 Georgia Hardstark? Alright.
11:11 Karen Kilgariff? We have some housekeeping.
11:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah. You want to go first or me?
11:17 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, well, I just needed to say that in my classic style, when I did the story about the evil nurse from the 1800s that liked to kill people last week.
11:29 Georgia Hardstark? Correction?
11:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Because she used to do a combo of morphine and atropine. Did you see this?
11:37 Georgia Hardstark? No.
11:38 Karen Kilgariff? I always forget, A, that I'm talking to other people besides you, and B, that a lot of those people are medical, from the medical profession. They have studied and gone to school.
11:51 Georgia Hardstark? That's no problem.
11:52 Karen Kilgariff? So, I'm just, as I was reading my very light research, I just assumed that atropine would be the opposite of morphine. But actually, because of all the genius people that we have on our Facebook page, I learned from a person who I believe is either an RN or a medical registered person. I can't remember. It was like three people who were like, a doctor, a nurse, and someone else. Yeah, I'll correct my correction. But they basically said, atropine is the drug that stopped the, what's it called? The death rattle, which is the final sounds that you make
12:34 Karen Kilgariff? that go on and on, that terrible breathing at the end of life. I assumed atropine was some kind of an upper. I thought she was giving them uppers and downers.
12:42 Georgia Hardstark? Fucking with their uppity and down?
12:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, like killing them and bringing them back. But that was just me assuming.
12:48 Georgia Hardstark? Wait, so they're also downers?
12:50 Karen Kilgariff? They're also downers. It's just different ways of shutting people's systems down.
12:55 Georgia Hardstark? I literally wouldn't care if you ever corrected that.
13:00 Karen Kilgariff? I know, but I have, I'm correcting it because I have a bad habit of making assumptions that are like, I make assumptions about medical knowledge and stuff like that.
13:11 Georgia Hardstark? So, do you think if you had said, "I don't know what they are," you wouldn't have cared? Or is it because you assumed, because you explained the thing?
13:17 Karen Kilgariff? I'm saying it as if I know it for a fact, and it's because my mom was a nurse, so I'd hear her use terminology. So, I was like, "I know what atropine is." Well, of course, I fucking don't know what atropine is.
13:26 Georgia Hardstark? No, that's fair. Man, I say Yiddish words that don't mean the right thing all the fucking time because I heard my grandma say it.
13:32 Karen Kilgariff? Well, you can apologize for that on your Yiddish podcast, but I have nothing to do with it.
13:36 Georgia Hardstark? It's actually Yiddish True Crime Podcast.
13:42 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, we're back. Is this the first Corrections Corner? No.
13:46 Karen Kilgariff? No. I think that episode two, we had a Corrections Corner.
13:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
13:50 Karen Kilgariff? If not, episode one.
13:53 Karen Kilgariff? And it's such a hilarious... I think this is when I first started realizing, this is my Gen X personality that younger people don't understand. We didn't have the internet, growing up. So you could say anything you wanted all the time. And you never got checked unless someone was like a pharmacist that you were talking to. So I have a... That kind of thing. I really used to love to talk about stuff like I knew it, because it felt like I knew it.
14:18 Georgia Hardstark? You mean like drugs and stuff?
14:20 Karen Kilgariff? Well, yeah, like this thing where I said morphine was a downer and atropine was an upper. And I was just kind of guessing that.
14:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it made sense in the context of the story.
14:28 Karen Kilgariff? Well...
14:29 Georgia Hardstark? But you know what? That doesn't matter for shit.
14:31 Karen Kilgariff? Well, you know what? The internet said, "No, thank you." But, you know, this is just... This is us being us, I think.
14:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and you introducing us as W2F with Marc Maron, us being us.
14:46 Karen Kilgariff? Also, you say here that anything pre-1800 is boring as fuck. And then what's hilarious is we go on to cover old stories.
14:54 Georgia Hardstark? I know. And I will say, I don't believe that anymore. I... You've really changed me when it comes to stories. And actually, this story that you do, I remember just being kind of horrified by it in a way that's like, "Whoa, the past is more interesting than I realized." Even though it's like, might not even be a true story, the one you cover.
15:13 Karen Kilgariff? Right. It's a little legend-y, but it is that kind of thing where it's like, there is... You know, history class could have been much more exciting if people told these kinds of stories, like, found them and then talked about, "Is this an urban legend? Well, maybe. And here's why this urban legend would have been floated."
15:30 Georgia Hardstark? Right. And here's why it actually... Like, there's bits of real information from it. Because it's not that... It's not that out of the realm of possibility that something similar like this would have happened.
15:40 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And I think, well, it's... Well, you'll listen to it.
15:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. You know what? How about we listen to Karen's story from episode 22, "The Legend of Sony Bean."
15:54 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
15:58 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
16:03 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
16:07 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know, and if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
16:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.
16:50 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplisafe.com/mfm, and when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.
16:58 Georgia Hardstark? SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.
17:01 Karen Kilgariff? Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.
17:06 Georgia Hardstark? So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.
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17:32 Georgia Hardstark? Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having, sorry everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the Sun, and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
18:02 Karen Kilgariff? Visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.
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18:12 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.
18:15 Georgia Hardstark? That means crisp weather and soft layers.
18:18 Karen Kilgariff? Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.
18:20 Georgia Hardstark? Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides and booties.
18:30 Karen Kilgariff? There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sports socks and dressier options for weddings.
18:39 Georgia Hardstark? And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.
19:05 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.
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19:16 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
19:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, so last week, we had a challenge. We're gonna have a topic, and it's 1500s.
19:29 Karen Kilgariff? 1500s. The reason I called you, Chute, is because when you asked that, one of the first things that people posted was the one I wanted to do.
19:38 Georgia Hardstark? Right. I went on, okay, here's my problem. I think 1500, I think anything pre-1800 is boring as fuck. I just, I really don't care.
19:49 Karen Kilgariff? Well, now we know that. We didn't know that before.
19:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I didn't even know that, where I was like, I don't fucking, who cares? You fucking, like, you and your corsets and your...
19:59 Karen Kilgariff? God, there was so much, um...
20:01 Georgia Hardstark? Latin?
20:02 Karen Kilgariff? There's a lot of Latin, and there was a lot of, um, calling people a witch and then just slowly murdering them, like, if they owed you money, or you wanted their seat.
20:12 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
20:13 Karen Kilgariff? Their throne.
20:14 Georgia Hardstark? And then there's just so much, like, so much that is lore at that point.
20:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
20:19 Georgia Hardstark? That isn't int- like, to me, it's like, this thing happened in the 1920s, like, that was so recent.
20:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:26 Georgia Hardstark? And so interesting, and, and also, like, he's gonna step all over your computer and ruin your files.
20:31 Karen Kilgariff? It's cats. This is hot cat action. This is what it's like. I'm used to it.
20:35 Georgia Hardstark? I'm just, I really like that I'd be able to put myself in someone's shoes, and if the shoes are, like, made of fucking fox skin, and they're like, and they haven't invented laces yet, and they're like, you know, I just don't care.
20:48 Karen Kilgariff? What about old clogs?
20:50 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely not.
20:51 Karen Kilgariff? Truly wooden?
20:52 Georgia Hardstark? No.
20:52 Karen Kilgariff? Legitimately wooden?
20:53 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds so uncomfortable.
20:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. What if they had nice high arches, like, arch support?
20:59 Georgia Hardstark? They don't. If they do, a peasant was murdered.
21:01 Karen Kilgariff? I'm saying dream clogs.
21:02 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. No, I would never wear clogs.
21:05 Karen Kilgariff? I love clogs.
21:06 Georgia Hardstark? I'm sorry.
21:09 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's interesting, but when I went to read about it, there was just a lot of, like, extra E's, uh, at the, on the end of words, and stuff where I was like, there's no way I'm reading that, because it looks like something, like, an old monk, uh, wrote in calligraphy.
21:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's exactly. And I love a murder where I can be like, oh, that, like, someone will write it, and be like, that was my grandfather, and my, or my grandfather's from the town that that happened, and I think it's, and he always said this, and, I mean, that can't happen. And so I wrote on the Facebook page, can someone fucking tell me their favorite 1500 murder? Because I really don't know what mine is. Like, I just don't have one.
21:44 Karen Kilgariff? And then there was a great one.
21:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
21:47 Georgia Hardstark? And I ended up using the one I kind of originally had thought of, um, this chick that everyone wanted to do, but like, had, has been overdone. But the chick who bathed in blood?
21:57 Karen Kilgariff? At Bathory, yes.
21:59 Georgia Hardstark? What a fucking cunt.
22:00 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, but, or, or was she being persecuted by
22:05 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
22:06 Karen Kilgariff? the whatever church. Cat is probably Catholic.
22:08 Georgia Hardstark? Who just spread these rumors about her to, like, get her under there?
22:12 Karen Kilgariff? Except for there were witnesses. But see, that's the thing is like, I was reading that and I'm like, oh no, it is real. There are witnesses. But this was back in the, in those times. It was like those, the witch hunt shit went from like the 1400s to the 1700s or something.
22:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, plus at that time, the people who wrote the history, who wrote the books of what happened could be shady as fuck, too.
22:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
22:34 Georgia Hardstark? It's not like it's journalism the way it is today, which is pretty fucking shady. It's like, you know?
22:41 Karen Kilgariff? So wait, did you do her?
22:42 Georgia Hardstark? No.
22:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, okay.
22:43 Georgia Hardstark? Because I think, um, who just did, was it, um, someone just did a whole, a whole episode on her.
22:51 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, okay.
22:51 Georgia Hardstark? So I wasn't interested.
22:52 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, okay.
22:53 Georgia Hardstark? So fuck them.
22:54 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck them. Yeah, we've been, uh, there, the, the week that I did The Nurse, some other crime podcast did The Nurse, too. I was really sad.
23:04 Georgia Hardstark? Sorry.
23:06 Karen Kilgariff? I did not know.
23:07 Georgia Hardstark? I'm fucking sorry.
23:08 Karen Kilgariff? Look, I'm sorry.
23:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, someone did mine. Yeah. I mean, they're just gonna overlap.
23:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
23:12 Georgia Hardstark? What are you gonna do?
23:13 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
23:14 Georgia Hardstark? So I think it's me or you.
23:18 Karen Kilgariff? It's either me or you.
23:19 Georgia Hardstark? Or Elvis.
23:21 Karen Kilgariff? I think it might be me.
23:22 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
23:23 Karen Kilgariff? Pretty sure.
23:24 Georgia Hardstark? I don't, I mean.
23:25 Karen Kilgariff? Who cares, right? I mean, who gives a fuck? I did the Sony Bean Clan. Do you know those people?
23:35 Georgia Hardstark? Which one were, no, I mean, which one were they? Tell me in a story.
23:38 Karen Kilgariff? Why don't I tell you a story style?
23:40 Georgia Hardstark? Do it.
23:41 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. Lay your head back.
23:43 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. On a cat.
23:45 Karen Kilgariff? Close your eyes on a cat. Um, the Sony Bean Clan is an infamous, uh, Scottish family from either the 1400s or the 1700s.
23:59 Georgia Hardstark? Let's say the 14.
24:00 Karen Kilgariff? They-
24:00 Georgia Hardstark? Why don't we know?
24:01 Karen Kilgariff? Because it's this kind, it's almost like a Scottish urban legend that they have attributed to several different eras.
24:10 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
24:12 Karen Kilgariff? And it's because they think this one is definitely propaganda that the English government used to make Scottish people look like.
24:21 Georgia Hardstark? Barbarians.
24:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, and deviants. But let's talk about it as if it's real first.
24:27 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
24:28 Karen Kilgariff? And then we'll talk about that part later.
24:29 Georgia Hardstark? I love it.
24:30 Karen Kilgariff? So if it was real.
24:33 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
24:34 Karen Kilgariff? This story and the details from it are the source of horror films like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Ravenous, The Hills Have Eyes.
24:47 Georgia Hardstark? Really?
24:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, because it's a family of cannibals.
24:50 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
24:51 Karen Kilgariff? And it's a family of cannibals who live in a hidden cave who were a huge incestuous clan that only came out at night, and they were highway robbers. So people would travel along these roads, along the Scottish countryside that was kind of like along the coast. And they would be trying to go between one city and the other, and the Sonny Bean clan would come out from their cave that was hidden at high tide. So no one knew where they were, and they would go out in the night, hide. A highway traveler would go by on their horse,
25:31 Karen Kilgariff? and this clan of inbred cannibals would jump out, pull them off their horse, murder them, steal their shit, kill their horse, drag it all back to the cave, which apparently went a mile underground.
25:49 Georgia Hardstark? Sounds like pretty sweet digs.
25:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. And they would eat the meat of the people, and then they had big piles of possessions. So it was almost like a treasure cave, but also filled with horrors and blood and whatnot. So. So the head of it was Alexander Bean, who was born in the 1500s in east Lothian, Scotland, which is a few miles outside of Edinburgh, on the east coast of Scotland. And they don't know that much about the details of his life. They do know, they kept saying that he was like, he was the son of like a ditch digger and a hedge trimmer, or something like that. So basically, like, his father was a hard-working, you know, working-class man.
26:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:36 Karen Kilgariff? And they kept saying that he was lazy. Alexander Bean was lazy. He didn't want to do hard work. And so, he basically left his family, where his only option was to do what his father did. He met up with a woman who also didn't want to do hard work. And her name was Black Agnes Douglas, which is probably my favorite name to date.
26:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:56 Karen Kilgariff? In the research of this podcast. So, Black Agnes Douglas and Alexander Bean, Sonny Bean, settled into Ballintrae together, which is a city somewhere in Scotland. And then, Black Agnes, they were both run out of town because they suspected Black Agnes was a witch, of course.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? There's no such fucking thing as witches, too.
27:25 Karen Kilgariff? Well, but there are such thing as women who are smarter than other people in their village.
27:29 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
27:30 Karen Kilgariff? And so, they have to live outside of society.
27:32 Georgia Hardstark? Or believe a different religion than the majority of people who...
27:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, like a Jew?
27:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
27:39 Karen Kilgariff? A smart Jewish lady that wants to live on the edge of town because she can't deal with bullshit.
27:43 Georgia Hardstark? Here I am, in fucking Little Armenia.
27:45 Karen Kilgariff? Hi-yee. I'm gonna drive you out of Little Armenia.
27:48 Georgia Hardstark? Would you please? Because I need to go out of this fucking apartment. Anyways, yes.
27:51 Karen Kilgariff? Black Georgia, get out of here. So, they end up in this cave in Benet Head, which is between Gervon and Ballintrae, on the west coast of Scotland. Okay, so Ballintrae is on the west coast.
28:07 Karen Kilgariff? So, so, basically, you can't see the cave at high tide. The tide goes out, and suddenly, there's a cave opening. You walk in 200 yards deep, and then, apparently, it goes down, so it's a mile underground.
28:24 Georgia Hardstark? That is so cool.
28:25 Karen Kilgariff? And...
28:28 Karen Kilgariff? So they, Black Agnes, Sony Bean, move into this cave. They have fourteen kids.
28:32 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
28:33 Karen Kilgariff? Then they end up having nearly fifty grandchildren incestuously.
28:37 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
28:38 Karen Kilgariff? So they're this big crazy clan. And, uh, I already told you that they'd, they'd come out at night. So they were hidden. They would attack people, rob them, murder them, take all their shit back to the caves. So they never left a trace, uh, they never left a survivor and they ate them. So there was, it was as if these people were just disappearing.
28:59 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, that's fucking off the grid, right?
29:01 Karen Kilgariff? Right. So, some say that there are a thousand deaths were attributed to the Sony Bean clan. Um, and, cause their reign of terror lasted for twenty-five years.
29:13 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
29:14 Karen Kilgariff? Um, so, it all ended one fateful night when the Beans ambushed, the Beans, ambushed a married couple who were coming back from a fair. They were riding on a horse together. And, um, the Bean clan attacked them and pulled the woman down off the horse, immediately murdered her, ripped open her stomach, pulled out her entrails, began eating her on the spot, blood everywhere. The husband, who was a great fighter, according to these reports, um, had a, had a sword and a pistol, and he was fighting off the rest of the clan, um, when a big group of fairgoers kinda come around the corner on the road, and so the Sony Bean clan runs away.
29:59 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
29:59 Karen Kilgariff? So they take the dead wife's body, this husband takes her body to the king, and says, "This crazy clan of lunatics attacked me and my wife, murdered my wife. Here's her body, you gotta, you gotta help me." So, the king and, uh, his, uh, sorry, hold on.
30:20 Georgia Hardstark? There you go. Can I say Sony Beans sounds like in one of those like all you can eat soup and salad restaurants?
30:30 Karen Kilgariff? You're exactly right. Sonny, interestingly enough, was a derogatory nickname for a Scottish person in England. So it'd be like how they called Irish people Patty. It was the same thing. So that's another reason what like all the historians and scholars say, this is an urban legend because everything about this is, oh, the disgusting old Sonny bean Scotsman. You know how they are, how they live in caves, eat human flesh and fuck their own children. It's that, it has that tone to it. But we're still pretending that it's real. So they, they go to King James VI of Scotland
31:14 Karen Kilgariff? and tell him all about what happened. So he gets a manhunt going with 400 men and bloodhounds. And they look all around the countryside and they can't find anything until the tide goes back out. And the bloodhounds go crazy and find the opening of the cave.
31:34 Georgia Hardstark? That is so cool.
31:35 Karen Kilgariff? And then they go into it. And this was the Captain Charles Johnson, writing in 1742, describes what they found in the cave. Legs, arms, thighs, hands and feet of men, women and children were hung up in rows like dried beef. And a great many limbs lay in pickle. And a great mass of money, both gold and silver, with watches, rings and swords, pistols and a large quantity of clothes, both linen and woolen, and an infinite number of other, infinite number of other things, which they had taken from those they had murdered. It's murder with an apostrophe D, old fashioned murdered. Were thrown together in heaps or hung up against the sides of the den.
32:20 Karen Kilgariff? And I've seen like illustrations. So it's basically like candlelight and then just body parts hanging from, from a cave. So they were said to have been all captured alive and taken in chains to the toll booth jail in Edinburgh.
32:40 Karen Kilgariff? Then either transferred to Leith or Glasgow, where they were promptly executed without a trial. The men had their genitalia, hands and feet cut off, and then they let them bleed to death.
32:52 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, God.
32:53 Karen Kilgariff? The women were all burned, and children.
32:55 Georgia Hardstark? What would you rather have?
32:57 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, burned? I think it would be relatively faster.
33:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah, okay.
33:03 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, it would be horrible for like, five minutes.
33:06 Georgia Hardstark? That's a long time of horrible.
33:08 Karen Kilgariff? It is a long time. But bleeding out with no, uh, extremities is rough.
33:17 Georgia Hardstark? I think that would be quick, and I think you'd be almost like, numbed in your brain. Getting burned alive seems like a fucking nightmare to me.
33:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wait. We had, did you see the message from the woman on Facebook? Who is a, um, there was someone on there that is a registered mortician, who said she would answer any questions for us. I wonder if she would know something like that?
33:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:40 Karen Kilgariff? I guess that's not really her department of the actual dying.
33:43 Georgia Hardstark? Right, but she can probably, I mean...
33:45 Karen Kilgariff? Like, what's the pain? That'd be an interesting thing to know. The pain factor and the window. Like, how quickly do you go into shock if you are on fire? Like, immediately? I want to know that.
33:56 Georgia Hardstark? Let's, um, let's see if she'll do us a private AMA with us, and maybe we can like, read them in a mini-episode.
34:04 Karen Kilgariff? That's a good idea. So, if you have questions for the licensed mortician and perhaps coroner, I don't, I can't remember. I'm definitely making up the coroner part right now, just for fun.
34:15 Georgia Hardstark? Do you know, I have an ex-boyfriend who's a, um, what is it called?
34:18 Karen Kilgariff? Pathological liar. Like me.
34:20 Georgia Hardstark? A lot of those. No, he's a, um, he's a, he picks up dead bodies and brings them to the mortuary.
34:27 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
34:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and he was like, my shitty, like, my broken-heart ex-boyfriend. When I found that out, that he did that, I was like, you fucking dick! You busted me.
34:36 Karen Kilgariff? Like, the one that got away?
34:37 Georgia Hardstark? Uh, no, I'm like, glad he got away, but he like, fucked me up when I did it. And then he got to have like, the best, he also like, had, then, living his best, like, my best life. I was like, you dick! I want to do that!
34:52 Georgia Hardstark? Whatever. He's gross.
34:54 Karen Kilgariff? The mortician.
34:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Anyways, yeah.
34:58 Karen Kilgariff? And I'm jealous of him too.
34:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:59 Karen Kilgariff? Well, it's also just interesting because I think there's some people who'd be, who'd never be able to do a job like that.
35:04 Georgia Hardstark? Like us, probably.
35:06 Karen Kilgariff? I know, in reality, yeah, I think it'd be a very, very difficult thing to do.
35:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
35:09 Karen Kilgariff? But so interesting. Like, I would want to know all about it.
35:13 Georgia Hardstark? I did too, but I didn't want to speak to him anymore.
35:16 Karen Kilgariff? I'd be like, no, yeah, not that guy specifically, but... That's like, that's like, um, there was a, there was a homicide detective that was at the same thing I was at. I think I told you about that. And I wanted to talk to him so bad, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.
35:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
35:33 Karen Kilgariff? Because I don't have any guts in that way of like, I can't do a cold call of like, "Hi, I'm Karen."
35:38 Georgia Hardstark? Tell me.
35:39 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, "I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about..." But I mean, like, how hot would that be if you were like going out with a homicide detective?
35:45 Georgia Hardstark? Dude, the hottest.
35:46 Karen Kilgariff? And be like, "Let me make you a casserole."
35:48 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm.
35:48 Karen Kilgariff? And get your goddamn slippers.
35:50 Georgia Hardstark? Just saying like, "How was your day?"
35:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
35:53 Georgia Hardstark? And like-
35:53 Karen Kilgariff? "How was your day? I really want you to tell me."
35:56 Georgia Hardstark? You're not just asking that because you're being a good wife and like, "How was your day? Tell me about, like, margin accounting." It's like, what a bitch she is. Like, "How was your fucking day?"
36:05 Karen Kilgariff? "How was your day when you came up on the perp and shit?"
36:09 Georgia Hardstark? Like, everything. Okay.
36:11 Karen Kilgariff? Let me wrap this down. I'm almost finished.
36:12 Georgia Hardstark? No, no, it's great. I love it.
36:14 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so, um, dee-doo-doo, the most suspicious part of the Sony Bean story is that no actual proof of him or his numerous victims actually exists. So they're saying if this many people, that what they say is like thousands over a 20-year period were truly disappearing from the Scottish coastline.
36:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
36:38 Karen Kilgariff? There would be, it would be written in the newspaper or what the, whatever, you know, the periodicals of the time. There would be reports of it. Um, and they don't have, not, they don't have any proof of like him being born or existing and they don't have proof of people disappearing. It's all just hearsay.
36:56 Georgia Hardstark? Would that not be his real name then? Do they have his real name?
36:58 Karen Kilgariff? Alexander Bean?
37:00 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
37:00 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, nobody named Alexander Bean, yeah, was born. So they say.
37:07 Karen Kilgariff? The legend of Sony Bean first appeared in what they called British chapbooks, which were rumor magazines of the day.
37:13 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm, sounds like the internet.
37:15 Karen Kilgariff? Um, yes, exactly. The old internet.
37:19 Georgia Hardstark? Ye olde.
37:20 Karen Kilgariff? Ye olde internet. Um, which today leads many to argue that the story was a political propaganda tool to denigrate Scots after the Jacobite rebellions, which had happened from 1648 to 1746. Which would make sense. Uh, let's see. Scottish historian Dr. Louise Yeoman said that, um, the later King James, who was the guy that in the story, they say they brought that body to and got, who got the 400 people up for the search party, um, said he was a keen hunter, but unlikely to have put himself in danger by leading a perilous trek like this.
38:01 Karen Kilgariff? And, um, she also said, "If James had successfully led an expedition to face down a well-armed group of bloodthirsty cannibals, he would have never, we would have never heard the end of it." So he was the kind of king that like definitely bragged about any slight adventure that he ever went on, and yet not a word was written anywhere about him doing this.
38:22 Georgia Hardstark? To me, that's the bigot. Like, that to me is the most, like, you can be like, "Well, maybe it was less victims, and maybe his name was something different or spelled differently." But that is, if it's all written record, what he said, he did it.
38:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, and he was the kind of king that was like, "Uh, let me let you, let me tell you a little story about how I, I found the Sony Bean clan."
38:39 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
38:40 Karen Kilgariff? Um, so, but maybe that part could have been, um, like, instead of getting 400 people, they got 30 people and they were townsfolk. It didn't go all the way to the king. Like, who knows? That part, I really don't want to let it go because I honestly think, well, and this is the other thing too, um, author Sean Thomas disagrees with the fact that it, it is urban legend, because he says, um, Uh, if the Sony Bean story is to be read as deliberately deliberately anti-Scottish, how do we explain the equal emphasis on English criminals in those same publications, the British chapbooks? Wouldn't such an approach rather blunt the point?
39:24 Karen Kilgariff? So he was saying like, it wasn't just that one story, there was all these stories. But other people say, yeah, except for the Sony Bean story is so bad and extreme that people have been talking about it for hundreds of years.
39:36 Georgia Hardstark? Well, that's the problem, is that people have been talking about it, so it constantly becomes more and more gruesome, and suddenly the king is involved, when really it was just like the fucking head of the local township.
39:49 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
39:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
39:51 Karen Kilgariff? They also said that a lot of the local innkeepers were hanged, even though they were innocent, because they were always the last people to see those highway travelers alive. But then that's another thing, where like, well then they would, there would be record of their death, and they can't find any of those. So, author Fiona Black writes in her book, The Polar Twins, "The monstrous figure of Sony Bean as written history was probably an English invention. Cannibalism has a long history as a means of political propaganda used by the dominant culture against those they want to colonize. As an English invention, Sony may be considered a colonial fiction written to demonstrate
40:35 Karen Kilgariff? the savagery and uncivilized nature of the Scots in contrast to the superior qualities of the English nation."
40:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
40:44 Karen Kilgariff? And also, so whether it's true or not, the one thing, as an urban legend, the story of Sony Bean represents the extremes humans are forced to go to when famine and poverty drive them to commit terrible deeds to survive, which is something that we all know the British really did do when they were colonizing Scotland and Ireland, you know, the Irish potato famine was not a famine because the crops failed, the English went in and took all of the crops out of Ireland.
41:16 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
41:17 Karen Kilgariff? So people were starving. While boats filled with food were being shipped over to England, they took all the food and intentionally starved Ireland so that they could take over the land.
41:26 Karen Kilgariff? That's crazy.
41:26 Karen Kilgariff? So this is something England did as a practice. So it also could be the story of like, these were people who were forced in these extreme measures. They didn't have anything else to eat. And then the story kind of came out from there.
41:40 Karen Kilgariff? Fucking colonialism, man.
41:42 Karen Kilgariff? It's not cool.
41:43 Karen Kilgariff? It's super not cool.
41:44 Karen Kilgariff? It's kind of not.
41:46 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of ruined. You just like gone and pissed on a bunch of fucking continents. And like marked your shitty.
41:55 Karen Kilgariff? So that's, that's the Sony Bean story. I was kind of bummed when I first heard that it was an urban legend because it's such a good, like, you know, it's like Texas Chainsaw Massacre. What better scary thing than the long, slow, like people just disappearing off a road? And then the idea that it's in the middle of the night, a family of inbred lunatics are coming to just pull you off your horse and eat you.
42:18 Karen Kilgariff? It's not even just like one crazy guy.
42:20 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
42:21 Karen Kilgariff? One wild and crazy guy. It's like.
42:23 Karen Kilgariff? It's 50.
42:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's like 50.
42:26 Karen Kilgariff? Nutter.
42:27 Karen Kilgariff? Scary.
42:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Yeah.
42:29 Karen Kilgariff? Well.
42:30 Karen Kilgariff? Well.
42:31 Karen Kilgariff? I hope it's not true.
42:33 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know what to hope anymore.
42:40 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, we're back. Did we ever figure out when in time this is from? Because it's 1400s or 1700s in the story.
42:49 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I know I didn't. Did you?
42:51 Georgia Hardstark? Why would I? Don't like fuck.
42:53 Karen Kilgariff? It's, I mean, I didn't, I.
42:55 Georgia Hardstark? I'm gonna go 14.
42:57 Karen Kilgariff? I'll do 17 just to cover our bets. How about that?
43:01 Georgia Hardstark? And I'd like to announce that yes, I opened a chain of salad and soup restaurants called the Sony Bean.
43:07 Karen Kilgariff? That is one of my favorite jokes. When that joke came back up in this episode, I was like, yeah.
43:13 Georgia Hardstark? It does.
43:14 Karen Kilgariff? We're doing it.
43:15 Georgia Hardstark? It's always bothered me, that name, a little bit.
43:17 Karen Kilgariff? Sony Bean is like.
43:18 Georgia Hardstark? There's something I don't like about it.
43:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's, well, it's on par with the soup plantation. It's like, hey, maybe we don't celebrate that.
43:24 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
43:26 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, now it's your turn. Georgia goes second on this one. And she's about to tell us a boring as fuck before 1800 story about the princes in the tower.
43:42 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
43:46 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
43:52 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
43:55 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, "It's a raccoon at your front door", but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
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44:46 Georgia Hardstark? SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.
44:50 Karen Kilgariff? Cozy season is nearly upon us.
44:52 Georgia Hardstark? That means crisp weather and soft layers.
44:54 Karen Kilgariff? Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.
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45:15 Georgia Hardstark? And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.
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45:53 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
45:55 Karen Kilgariff? You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
45:57 Georgia Hardstark? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray?
46:00 Karen Kilgariff? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.
46:10 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
46:21 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula.
46:25 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
46:29 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
46:45 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
46:47 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky?
46:50 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.
46:55 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
46:58 Karen Kilgariff? What's your favorite murder?
46:59 Georgia Hardstark? My favorite 1500 murder.
47:02 Karen Kilgariff? That you hate in general?
47:03 Georgia Hardstark? That I hated. No, actually, I had been reading about this like a couple of months ago because I had never really heard the term, but I had never understood the story because fuck Shakespeare. The princes in the tower.
47:20 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I saw that on the list, but I didn't read that one.
47:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, so this reminded me of that. And it's a really interesting story. It takes place in 14, around, starts in 1483. It starts in 1483 with the, oh my God, I have to do this again, and I meant to look this up.
47:38 Karen Kilgariff? Uh oh, you're gonna get in big trouble for pronouncing it wrong.
47:42 Georgia Hardstark? No, this is embarrassing. So, one with a V is five, right?
47:48 Karen Kilgariff? No, that's four.
47:50 Georgia Hardstark? God damn it!
47:50 Karen Kilgariff? When the one is before the V, it's four, and if it's after, it's six.
47:55 Georgia Hardstark? Fourth grade was a really hard year for me.
47:57 Karen Kilgariff? Dude, who gives a fuck about Roman numerals? Seriously?
48:00 Georgia Hardstark? So, four. Okay.
48:02 Karen Kilgariff? Wait, yeah, because X is 10. Okay, okay, okay.
48:04 Georgia Hardstark? So, Edward IV of England.
48:09 Georgia Hardstark? He died unexpectedly on April 9th, 1483. He had two sons, Edward V., I'm guessing, Edward V. of England.
48:20 Karen Kilgariff? Just call him Edward V.
48:21 Georgia Hardstark? Edward V. What was his last name? It was V. Edward V., and he was 12, and Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York, who was nine.
48:32 Karen Kilgariff? That doesn't sound like a nine-year-old's name.
48:35 Georgia Hardstark? No, and it's almost like, you can't be, you can't be the maybe prince when, you can't be the prince, but here you go, you're the Duke of York.
48:41 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
48:42 Georgia Hardstark? She's like, cool.
48:42 Karen Kilgariff? Ricky Shrewsbury.
48:44 Georgia Hardstark? Ricky Shrewsbury. Ricky, yeah, okay, so Edward dies unexpectedly, but right before his death, he designates his brother, Richard, as Lord Protector.
48:58 Karen Kilgariff? Richard III?
49:00 Georgia Hardstark? No, I don't know.
49:01 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, Richard III?
49:04 Georgia Hardstark? I don't see III, no, Richard as Lord Protector.
49:07 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
49:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, no, yes, let's read this.
49:10 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry, sorry, why would I even ask a question?
49:12 Georgia Hardstark? No, I feel stupid. So I wrote down, turns out, he was a dick. I wrote that in my notes. So Richard was a fucking dick, it's Richard, Duke of Gloucester. He sets out for London after-
49:29 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's Gloucestershire, sorry. Sorry, I could definitely be wrong.
49:33 Georgia Hardstark? No, you're right.
49:34 Karen Kilgariff? I could be wrong.
49:35 Georgia Hardstark? You're right.
49:36 Karen Kilgariff? This is the kind of thing, like Edinburgh, it looks like it's Edinburgh, but it's Edinburgh?
49:40 Georgia Hardstark? Edinburgh, yeah.
49:41 Karen Kilgariff? And you're supposed to know that, even though you're from fucking Northern California or Southern California.
49:45 Georgia Hardstark? We're Americans.
49:46 Karen Kilgariff? We're, couldn't be more California.
49:48 Georgia Hardstark? Or Americans.
49:49 Karen Kilgariff? And we're like, we don't even know what's going on.
49:51 Georgia Hardstark? So Gloucester.
49:53 Karen Kilgariff? Gloucester?
49:54 Georgia Hardstark? Gloucester.
49:55 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know.
49:56 Georgia Hardstark? Anyways.
49:57 Karen Kilgariff? You know what, we're gonna hear, we're gonna hear plenty from people who do know.
49:59 Georgia Hardstark? He sets out from, for London, is that how you say it?
50:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
50:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yep. So he sets out for London after his bro dies. The following morning, he arrests Edwards.
50:19 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God, I can't read any of this. I mentioned his fucking, his uncle, the uncles. So their half brother. So they, he arrests the other kid. Like, he's just already being, like, dickin' around.
50:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
50:29 Georgia Hardstark? And they were sent to a castle where they were fucking. The uncle and the, and the half brother were fucking immediately beheaded in Yorkshire.
50:39 Karen Kilgariff? Wait, the nine and the 12 year old?
50:41 Georgia Hardstark? No, not yet.
50:41 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, sorry, sorry.
50:42 Georgia Hardstark? The nine and the 12 year old's other uncle and half brother.
50:46 Karen Kilgariff? Got it.
50:46 Georgia Hardstark? Were immediately beheaded. So, because, because Edward V was the heir to the throne. So he was supposed to, once his dad unexpectedly died, he was supposed to be fucking king.
50:59 Georgia Hardstark? So then Richard fucking grabs these two kids, these two little ones, Edward V of England and Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York.
51:07 Karen Kilgariff? Ricky Shrewsbury, yeah.
51:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Ricky Shrewsbury. He takes possession of them. The Elizabeth Woodville, who was the wife of Edward, who just died, takes her other son, Richard, Duke of York.
51:20 Georgia Hardstark? Then her daughters into a sanctuary. She's like, fuck this in, like, later days. Then Richard, so Edward V and Richard arrive in London together. And then, so plans start for Edward's coronation, but the date kept being postponed.
51:35 Karen Kilgariff? Uh oh.
51:36 Georgia Hardstark? So this 12 year old kid who just lost his dad was, like, about to be the king, which was insane.
51:41 Karen Kilgariff? Very Game of Thrones.
51:42 Georgia Hardstark? Very. So on May 19, 1483, Edward was lodged in the Tower of London.
51:50 Karen Kilgariff? Mm hmm.
51:50 Georgia Hardstark? Scary. It's the traditional residence of monarchs prior to the coronation. So he's still like, I'm gonna be king. And then on June 16, he was joined by his younger brother, this kid, Richard, Ricky, good old Ricky, who was previously in the sanctuary. But at this point, the date of Edward's coronation was indefinitely postponed by their dick uncle, Richard.
52:12 Karen Kilgariff? Uh huh.
52:12 Georgia Hardstark? Uncle Dick.
52:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Tricky Dick.
52:16 Georgia Hardstark? Tricky Dick.
52:16 Karen Kilgariff? Got it.
52:17 Georgia Hardstark? So then on Sunday, June 22, a sermon was preached at St. Paul's Crossing claiming Richard to be the only legitimate heir of the House of York. So at this point, there's like this crazy conspiracy to get this guy, Richard, Tricky Dick, to be the king instead.
52:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
52:34 Georgia Hardstark? So, a group of lords, knights, and gentlemen petitioned Richard to take the throne. Both princes were, the two kids were subsequently declared illegitimate by Parliament because Richard like changed the laws.
52:48 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh.
52:49 Georgia Hardstark? It was an act of Parliament known as Titulus Regius. Regius, again, I fucking hate, yeah.
52:56 Karen Kilgariff? We don't speak Latin.
52:57 Georgia Hardstark? No. So, he said that the marriage between Edward IV and Elizabeth's marriage was invalid because of some contract of a pre-marriage. So like, he made some bullshit law and said that these kids aren't legitimate, so this one can't be king. So this, so, so he was crowned King Richard III. You were correct, ma'am.
53:20 Karen Kilgariff? I was correct?
53:21 Georgia Hardstark? You were correct.
53:22 Karen Kilgariff? A miracle.
53:23 Georgia Hardstark? Of England on July 3rd. And the declaration of the boy's illegitimacy had been described as an expux facto justification for him getting the fucking throne. And it's recorded that after he seized the throne, Edward and Ricky were taken to the, quote, "inner apartments of the tower," and they were seen less and less. Sometimes they were seen like playing outside, but less and less. And Edward was regularly visited by a doctor who reported that, "Like a victim prepared for sacrifice, he sought remission of his sins by daily confession and penance because he believed that death was facing him." Like, this kid was like-
54:04 Karen Kilgariff? A 12-year-old boy?
54:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. This kid was like, "I know what's happening." I mean, he's been, he's been raised to be, to be ready to be prince, so he's probably a fucking smart kid.
54:13 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
54:14 Georgia Hardstark? Right? And knows what happens with monarchies, you know?
54:19 Karen Kilgariff? It happened a bunch.
54:20 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
54:21 Karen Kilgariff? Pretty standard stuff.
54:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So, there's reports that they're seen playing around the tower, but no recorded sightings of either of them after the summer of 1483. There was an attempt to rescue them, but it failed, and it's, it's, at this point, the reason it failed is because they were, they were already dead. That's, that's what they think.
54:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
54:43 Georgia Hardstark? Is that the reason it failed is that they were already dead.
54:48 Georgia Hardstark? Other than their disappearance, there's no direct evidence that they were murdered. And no, quote, "reliable, well-informed, independent, or impartial sources for the associated events." So it's a speculation that they were murdered, but it's, there's a lot of evidence as to it happening.
55:05 Karen Kilgariff? Well, yeah, because there's somebody that has a really good reason to murder them.
55:09 Georgia Hardstark? Very good. And they're never seen from again.
55:11 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And also, when you're the king, you can get all that shit taken care of and not have any evidence laying around.
55:17 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So, jump to, like, more recently, four unidentified bodies have been found, which are considered possibly connected with the events. Let's see, okay, so the theory, the theory that I think is the most correct and seems to be the, like, this is what everyone thinks it is. So there's this guy named James, Sir James Tyrell, who was an English knight who fought for the House of York on many occasions. And he was acting as, he was the loyal servant of Richard III. So he was arrested by Henry the...
55:55 Karen Kilgariff? Just sound it out. How many?
55:59 Georgia Hardstark? V11.
56:00 Karen Kilgariff? Seventh?
56:01 Georgia Hardstark? Henry VII forces in 1502. I'm sorry, this is...
56:06 Karen Kilgariff? Dude, please.
56:07 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. In 1502, for supporting another Yorkist claim to the throne. So he's arrested, and he was gonna get executed, and he was tortured, and he's like, "Yeah, it's, I was, I was, I did it because Richard III told me to."
56:19 Karen Kilgariff? Really?
56:20 Georgia Hardstark? He confesses to this guy named Thomas More. And More said that the princes, this guy told him that they were smothered to death in their beds by two agents by this guy Tyrell, and were then, Tyrell, and then were buried, quote, "at the stair foot neatly deep in the ground, under a great heap of stones." But were later disinterred and buried in a secret place.
56:49 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh.
56:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Um...
56:53 Georgia Hardstark? They were under the guard of the Tower of London while they were there, which was controlled by Richard III's men. And access to them, to the princes, was strictly limited by his instructions. Which is like, that's a fact.
57:07 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
57:08 Georgia Hardstark? He could therefore have dispatched one of his retainers to murder the princes on his behalf. But it's unlikely that they could have been murdered without his knowledge. You know what I mean?
57:17 Karen Kilgariff? He did it.
57:19 Georgia Hardstark? These little fucking poor kids were... So in 1674, some workmen were remodeling the Tower of London, giving it a little makeover.
57:28 Karen Kilgariff? What year is 16 something?
57:30 Georgia Hardstark? 1674.
57:30 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
57:31 Georgia Hardstark? They dug up a wooden box containing two small human skeletons.
57:34 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
57:35 Georgia Hardstark? I know. The bones were found buried 10 feet out of the staircase, leading to the chapel of the White Tower. They were not the first children's skeletons found within the tower.
57:47 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no.
57:48 Georgia Hardstark? Which is like, what are you fucking doing in there?
57:50 Karen Kilgariff? They did whatever they wanted.
57:51 Georgia Hardstark? Sure. The bones of two other children had been found in a chamber that had been walled up, which could have also been them. So like, you find two sets, two sets of two children's bones. Like, the chances are that one of them's gonna be...
58:08 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
58:09 Georgia Hardstark? Except, Queen Elizabeth II has not granted the approval for DNA testing. She's like, nope.
58:15 Karen Kilgariff? Queen Elizabeth II is our current one?
58:19 Georgia Hardstark? I think so.
58:20 Karen Kilgariff? And, sorry, I didn't mean...
58:21 Georgia Hardstark? No, yeah.
58:21 Karen Kilgariff? Only, why, what does she care?
58:24 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, it's gonna, it's gonna look badly on them.
58:28 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, it's too late. Most people think they're lizard people. Don't they realize? Yeah, have you ever heard that theory?
58:34 Georgia Hardstark? No.
58:35 Karen Kilgariff? David Icke?
58:36 Georgia Hardstark? No.
58:36 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's fascinating.
58:37 Georgia Hardstark? What is it, they think that...
58:38 Karen Kilgariff? That there's just, that basically the most powerful and richest people on the planet are actually lizard people?
58:45 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, there was a last podcast on the left about that.
58:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's, I haven't heard that, but my friend Laura used to read all David Icke books and websites and then tell me what they said. And she started out thinking it was funny, and then after a while it got a little real. And I was like, you need to stop reading that shit.
59:01 Georgia Hardstark? Like, she believed it?
59:03 Karen Kilgariff? She just was reading a lot of it. She's like submerged herself in the world a little much where it's basically once you suspend disbelief a little bit, then you can go, you know, then you can kind of believe what, you know, that everybody's kind of like a, um, they say that they're like these weird, they have the ability to change from lizards to people.
59:23 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, that's
59:24 Karen Kilgariff? And that's all like, most royalty are actually lizard people.
59:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's stupid.
59:29 Karen Kilgariff? It's a little heavy.
59:31 Georgia Hardstark? Like, why lizards?
59:33 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know, maybe it's because it's like, you could see it, like they're part alien or something.
59:37 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. I actually believe alien more than lizard.
59:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
59:43 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know, anyways, the end, the end is that the bones were removed and examined in 1933 and the archivist, the leading anatomist, he said that, uh, they concluded that the bones belonged to two children around the correct ages for the princes.
1:00:01 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
1:00:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:03 Karen Kilgariff? That was in the 30s that they did that? Oh, that's cool.
1:00:05 Georgia Hardstark? But since then, they won't, they won't let them test them.
1:00:10 Karen Kilgariff? That's all, that's the only word they want to hear about it.
1:00:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:13 Karen Kilgariff? You know what's funny is we went to the Tower of London, my sister and I.
1:00:17 Georgia Hardstark? So did I.
1:00:17 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, but we had such bad jet lag.
1:00:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
1:00:21 Karen Kilgariff? That we were trying to stay up till a normal hour so that when we went to sleep, because we landed at like nine in the morning.
1:00:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:28 Karen Kilgariff? But for us, it was like two in the morning. So then it was like for us, it was like we were trying to stay up all night. So we took all these tours. So we walked through the Tower of London. We did all this stuff, but neither of us can remember it because we were like exhausted.
1:00:42 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
1:00:42 Karen Kilgariff? And then we finally went to sleep at four o'clock and then we woke up at three in the morning and we had jet lag for like four days while we were in England. It sucked.
1:00:51 Georgia Hardstark? I did that and I did that too, in places.
1:00:54 Karen Kilgariff? If you don't do it right, you can really screw up like your whole vacation.
1:00:57 Georgia Hardstark? That's true.
1:00:58 Karen Kilgariff? One of the only memories I have is like going to the aquarium that they have there, really have a really awesome one.
1:01:03 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm.
1:01:03 Karen Kilgariff? And petting a little stingray that would, they would come up to the sides of the tank like little dogs.
1:01:09 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god, cute.
1:01:10 Karen Kilgariff? But I was in, I mean, of all the memories I have of, I could have done that in Monterey.
1:01:15 Georgia Hardstark? That's true.
1:01:16 Karen Kilgariff? Totally insane. Anyhow, we were, I'm just saying, the Tower of London did not seem to me to be the kind of place any kid would ever want to be.
1:01:24 Georgia Hardstark? No, not a fun little hangout.
1:01:26 Karen Kilgariff? No.
1:01:27 Georgia Hardstark? Not a good summer camp. Well, that's 1500s. Next time, can we do like a 70s one?
1:01:36 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, this was a misstep. I admit it, 100%.
1:01:41 Georgia Hardstark? Were those okay? I feel like I'm gonna edit out some of the stupider shit I said.
1:01:45 Karen Kilgariff? Look, you can edit whatever you want.
1:01:48 Georgia Hardstark? Some more stupid.
1:01:50 Karen Kilgariff? If anyone is coming here to learn, they've made a terrible mistake. And also, um, yeah.
1:02:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:02:02 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
1:02:03 Georgia Hardstark? Well, let's do like, so your episode about, or your murder about the chick who's hands got fucking sliced off?
1:02:15 Karen Kilgariff? Mary Vincent?
1:02:16 Georgia Hardstark? Mary Vincent. Fucking crawling her stump way.
1:02:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
1:02:20 Georgia Hardstark? That's like the most talked about one.
1:02:23 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:02:23 Georgia Hardstark? So people like, "Gross and shit."
1:02:26 Karen Kilgariff? Well, and also, I think it's just, if it's a good story.
1:02:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it's a Survivor story.
1:02:31 Karen Kilgariff? A Survivor story, or something so insane, like, for me, what I like is when it's something where you're like, "I'm sorry, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, how is that possible in human experience?"
1:02:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, what depraved fuck-up-ness.
1:02:46 Karen Kilgariff? Or like crazy planning.
1:02:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Should we do Survivors next week?
1:02:51 Karen Kilgariff? We can. Oh my God, I know the one I wanna do, if you wanna do Survivors.
1:02:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, let's do I Survived.
1:02:58 Karen Kilgariff? I'll tell, mine will be from an I Survived.
1:03:00 Georgia Hardstark? I'm sure it will, you're obsessed with that show.
1:03:02 Karen Kilgariff? This is one I tell people at parties.
1:03:05 Georgia Hardstark? You told me, don't tell me.
1:03:07 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know. Sometimes when I can't think, I think part of this obsession is when I can't think of what to say. I'll just go into somebody else's tale of amazing survival.
1:03:17 Georgia Hardstark? You know, lately, when I'm short of a conversation, and I'll ask people their hometown murders.
1:03:23 Karen Kilgariff? You will?
1:03:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
1:03:24 Karen Kilgariff? Do you get some good ones?
1:03:26 Georgia Hardstark? Sometimes people see, it's funny how much, how people just jump into the conversation like it's normal.
1:03:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:03:33 Georgia Hardstark? Which I really appreciate.
1:03:34 Karen Kilgariff? I do too.
1:03:35 Georgia Hardstark? And like, I've been at like, you know, around a whole table of people and it's like awkward chit chat. And then I'll, and then I'll be like, "Oh, I'm from Arizona." And I'm like, "Oh, were you there when that, this thing happened?"
1:03:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:03:46 Georgia Hardstark? And then it just starts this like fun conversation.
1:03:48 Karen Kilgariff? Well, cause, and also because people have such extreme reactions to it. Either they're super into it or super repelled by it.
1:03:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:03:54 Karen Kilgariff? But it is a fun, like, "Oh, I can't, if you guys want to talk about this, I can't be here."
1:03:58 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Well, then go away.
1:03:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. That's exactly what I end up saying.
1:04:06 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, this is where it comes out that I just don't do Roman numerals.
1:04:10 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:04:11 Georgia Hardstark? I don't and I still can't and I won't and I don't care.
1:04:15 Karen Kilgariff? I feel like after high school, this would have been the only situation you would have had to use them.
1:04:21 Georgia Hardstark? Unless I was like playing the Super Bowl or something.
1:04:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:04:24 Georgia Hardstark? You know, which I will and don't.
1:04:25 Karen Kilgariff? But even if you're playing the Super Bowl, you don't have to deal with those Roman numerals?
1:04:29 Georgia Hardstark? I don't have to tell people about what like, Super Bowl it is.
1:04:32 Karen Kilgariff? No. Unless, it's like, if you're the graphics guy
1:04:34 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:04:35 Karen Kilgariff? for the network that does the Super Bowl.
1:04:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but they just give you the information anyways, so I don't have to.
1:04:41 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:04:41 Georgia Hardstark? So it's not, so don't worry about it.
1:04:43 Karen Kilgariff? So, hey, graphics Georgia, don't worry about it.
1:04:45 Georgia Hardstark? I've done okay without, no, without, with missing that day in class.
1:04:48 Karen Kilgariff? Up until this.
1:04:49 Georgia Hardstark? A Roman numeral. I've done fine until now and I'm still blushing.
1:04:54 Karen Kilgariff? Let's see, are there any case updates for this story from the 1500s?
1:04:58 Georgia Hardstark? No case updates, but I will give some recommendations if people are into the story because it turns out that even a person who isn't interested in the past, I find this story fascinating.
1:05:08 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:05:08 Georgia Hardstark? So there's a book called The Princes in the Tower by a woman named Philippa Langley. And she is the like amateur archaeologist who was able to locate the body of Richard III.
1:05:21 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, and there's a movie out.
1:05:23 Georgia Hardstark? It's called The Lost King, and it's fucking incredible.
1:05:26 Karen Kilgariff? So good.
1:05:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So this woman, who's just like endlessly fascinating, also wrote a book. And it's like, kind of like a true crime-y book about what happened that makes people still don't know. And there's still all these like theories. So I don't know if you're into buried bones. I think pick up The Princes in the Tower by Philippa Langley.
1:05:43 Karen Kilgariff? Nice. That's okay. I like case updates that just turn into recommendations.
1:05:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah. And now we're gonna listen to how we ended this episode.
1:05:55 Georgia Hardstark? Friday night, Vince and I did nothing and sat at home and watched the OJ Simpson.
1:06:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:06:04 Georgia Hardstark? The new Simpsons.
1:06:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:06:06 Georgia Hardstark? Documentary, The Thirty for Thirty, which I haven't finished yet. Don't even.
1:06:10 Karen Kilgariff? I'm only on part four.
1:06:11 Georgia Hardstark? And you and I texted and had some funny jokes about it.
1:06:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:06:15 Georgia Hardstark? And that's like, that was perfect. We had some wine and we had snacks. And like, that's like my, my perfect moment with cats surrounding us.
1:06:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:06:26 Georgia Hardstark? And, and fucked up murder.
1:06:28 Karen Kilgariff? I love that special. I was talking, I went to a party on Saturday night, last Saturday. And I was talking to my friend about that. And I just kept saying to her, I'm so embarrassed. My reaction in 1995, or whenever that, that verdict came down, was it 95 or 94?
1:06:49 Georgia Hardstark? I want to, yeah, 94, 95.
1:06:50 Karen Kilgariff? I can't remember. But whatever it was, I just very much remember, I remember hearing, like on the radio, on talk radio or whatever, black, the black reaction was like, good. This is what we deserve. You know, it's only just. And I remember just thinking, this is crazy. I don't understand what these people are talking about. And now, it took 25 years practically. And to now understand what they meant, it makes me embarrassed.
1:07:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
1:07:19 Karen Kilgariff? That, like, that's what they're talking about when they talk about white privilege. There are stories in that documentary I never heard before. I didn't know about that 12-year-old girl that got shot in the back by the Korean store owner. I didn't know about the woman who got shot on her front lawn over an, like a gas bill. Like, there's all this news that I didn't know about, that I, like, we just weren't privy. Like, the news was so different back then.
1:07:44 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:07:44 Karen Kilgariff? And-
1:07:45 Georgia Hardstark? Right, I mean, you think like racism, you know, not in my lifetime so much better. We don't, we're not this, yet we're fucking horrible.
1:07:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, it's because we, because ultimately it's you don't know what you don't know.
1:07:57 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:07:58 Karen Kilgariff? And a lot of people talk like when people, when there's the Black Lives Matter, um, you know, campaign, and then there's these other people going, all lives matter, where it's like you're, you are missing the point.
1:08:09 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:08:09 Karen Kilgariff? And what you're saying is, as if you understand what these people are going through, you do not.
1:08:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:08:16 Karen Kilgariff? Your privilege is such that you have no idea.
1:08:20 Georgia Hardstark? It made me, as, even though I'm not at all racist and no one in my family is, and it's not, you know, it's nothing I've ever encountered on my own, in my own life, it made me so embarrassed.
1:08:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:08:32 Georgia Hardstark? For.
1:08:33 Karen Kilgariff? It's because we shouldn't, because if you don't know, then you shouldn't be going, this is ridicu-, you know what I mean? Like, it's that judgment of a, of privilege.
1:08:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:08:42 Karen Kilgariff? That's embarrassing to me because, yeah, I always thought I was middle-class, working-class.
1:08:46 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:08:46 Karen Kilgariff? My parents are from, I, both were raised by Irish immigrants who are poor and bootstrapped and all that kind of stuff. So, nobody has that kind of like, I always look at that as like, oh, the 1%, and those people that don't understand, whatever, that's not us. It absolutely is, is you, if you haven't had the experience.
1:09:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:09:05 Karen Kilgariff? And that, I, that's, but that's the brilliance of that documentary series, is people are legitimately having their eyes opened.
1:09:12 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. I can't wait to finish it, and it's, it's.
1:09:16 Karen Kilgariff? I hear the fifth episode is insanely grisly.
1:09:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
1:09:21 Karen Kilgariff? Because you see the bodies.
1:09:23 Georgia Hardstark? There's crime scene photos.
1:09:25 Karen Kilgariff? Uh huh.
1:09:25 Georgia Hardstark? Is that the first time they've ever been shown, like legally and publicly, I wonder?
1:09:31 Karen Kilgariff? I'm not sure.
1:09:32 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, God, I don't want to see her.
1:09:33 Karen Kilgariff? It's apparently very graphic and upsetting.
1:09:35 Georgia Hardstark? I just remember hearing, when I was like, when it happened, that, I, that was the first time I ever heard this, and I've unfortunately heard it since, that her neck was so slit that it was almost, she was almost beheaded.
1:09:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:09:47 Georgia Hardstark? Like, that. Has stuck with me.
1:09:50 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
1:09:50 Georgia Hardstark? Seen it a couple, heard it a couple, read it a couple of times in other crimes since then.
1:09:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:09:54 Georgia Hardstark? And it, it, it gives me the chills.
1:09:58 Karen Kilgariff? It's so crazy. It's so crazy. And the weirdest part is that all of it, like the entire story is so really huge. Like you just wouldn't, anybody who hasn't seen this documentary, you really have to see it.
1:10:13 Georgia Hardstark? And the beginning, the first episode is really all about OJ and his football career, which I was like boring, but then it makes you understand who he was and why it mattered. Because I didn't care about football.
1:10:23 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:10:24 Georgia Hardstark? So I didn't understand what a huge person. I saw him in The Naked Gun.
1:10:27 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:10:28 Georgia Hardstark? And I was like, he's that actor.
1:10:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:10:29 Georgia Hardstark? But like even him getting, it was just so interesting what it meant for him to be as huge as he was.
1:10:36 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And he was one of the first people, he was one of the first black men that was presented as like a commercial aspirational figure.
1:10:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:10:45 Karen Kilgariff? Which had never happened before.
1:10:47 Georgia Hardstark? For neither, for not just for black people.
1:10:49 Karen Kilgariff? No, for everybody.
1:10:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. At large.
1:10:53 Karen Kilgariff? It's so fascinating.
1:10:54 Georgia Hardstark? It is.
1:10:55 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, yeah. Highly recommended.
1:10:57 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm.
1:11:00 Karen Kilgariff? Crazy.
1:11:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Well, I tried to end it on a positive note and then I ended up talking about fucking The Simpsons again.
1:11:13 Karen Kilgariff? It was this episode, as you know, we name these, we name these titles kind of randomly ourselves, wordplay style.
1:11:21 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm.
1:11:22 Karen Kilgariff? Which got very exhausting after a while. So these days, we just pick a phrase from the episode and name it that. People that listen to this podcast are like, we know. Why aren't you?
1:11:35 Georgia Hardstark? It's in case you're listening with your mom and it's her first time listening and you're on your road trip and shit. And she's like, why are we talking about titles that's already got a title? You have to know.
1:11:43 Karen Kilgariff? We have to explain to your, to your ghost mom every time. So Alhandra pulled some new ones from this episode. Uh, one is crossing paths in a sauna.
1:11:53 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that sounds so awkward.
1:11:55 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, we're talking about us seeing each The night before at a comedy show where there was no air conditioning, it looked like we were crossing paths in a sauna.
1:12:04 Georgia Hardstark? Um, one of my favorite, one of my favorite sayings. I didn't make this up. I got it from a girl I followed on Live Journal a million years ago. And Vince actually has, someone made shirts of these and Vince has one. Coochie twinge of shame.
1:12:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:12:17 Georgia Hardstark? Coochie twinge is just like, you guys, you know what it means when you cross paths in a sauna? It's awkward. You know what a fucking coochie twinge is? When you get so excited about something or horrified by something. If I don't, you don't explain it to your mom.
1:12:27 Karen Kilgariff? I remember when you said it and then you were like, we gotta make shirts. And I was like, absolutely not.
1:12:32 Georgia Hardstark? It's terrible. I don't say it very often anymore.
1:12:35 Karen Kilgariff? But it's almost like the underground, uh, you know, phrase.
1:12:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:12:39 Karen Kilgariff? And, you know, you love it. Also, there's, um, me or you or Elvis, which is you figuring out who goes first. And you said it's either me or you or Elvis.
1:12:48 Georgia Hardstark? Good boy.
1:12:49 Karen Kilgariff? That would have been a good one.
1:12:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:12:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. We can pick that one.
1:12:53 Georgia Hardstark? Elvis, okay. Well, thanks you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind.
1:12:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And if you want to, uh, start listening to this, if you don't want to go all the way back and listen to all of our old episodes where we, um, I mean,
1:13:06 Georgia Hardstark? That's a lot of.
1:13:07 Karen Kilgariff? Slop around.
1:13:08 Georgia Hardstark? Bullshit.
1:13:10 Karen Kilgariff? But, you know, or you just, whatever. Stay sexy. I don't know.
1:13:14 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:13:17 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:13:20 Speaker 03 Ah.
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