457 - In With The Goths

On today’s episode, Georgia covers the life and murder of Medgar Evers and Karen tells the story of nurse Cliff Morrison and Ward 5B.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 1:09Speaker 02

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• 1:53Speaker 03

  Hello and welcome

• 1:55Georgia Hardstark?

  to My Favorite Murder.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kellergaroff.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  This is a video as well as an audio podcast.

• 2:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Crazy.

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I guess we were doing something with our arms recently that people were freaked out by. It was like this.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's called a power move in podcasting. If you've never seen it, get ready.

• 2:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Podcasting. See it now.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  I love, people are freaked out.

• 2:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Just over exaggerated.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  You didn't realize how much we gesture.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a lot of gesturing. You can't have a good podcast without just flamboyant gesturing.

• 2:29Speaker 03

  I simply need you to know.

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  One must.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  There's gonna be a ton of it.

• 2:33Georgia Hardstark?

  This is basically musical theater.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. We're back on the boards. We're trotting the boards.

• 2:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of being on the fucking boards.

• 2:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Guys, it's it. That's it. Karen's banging on the fucking table. Justin, pure, there's no words to describe. Tell them.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, I just want to say that the website, Blue Sky, is a new social media website that has taken the place of Twitter, that died long ago. And so because I'm on there, I opened it up in the middle of like a meeting or something. And there's an account called Carmageddon13 who's there to tell me some of the most exciting news I've ever seen and that it's, we're on Jeopardy.

• 3:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I actually got my info from Canada.

• 3:21Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I guess it's a different time zone there.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  From our friend Casey Corbin, who's Vince's friend in Texas.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  Oh, nice. Texas, Canada?

• 3:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Text us.

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Texas. Nope, Canada, still Canada.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Double Canada.

• 3:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Double Canada.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  And then basically, we were.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Us and you're wrong about.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. Provided the question part of a clue, or the answer part of the clue. On Jeopardy.

• 3:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It said, I'll say, it said, "Start yapping on your own this. Ask where it is best of 2021, included you're wrong about and my favorite murder."

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Have to wait till the end.

• 4:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Podcast.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, podcasts. The answer's a podcast.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Podcasting.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  What is a podcast?

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  What is a podcast? Fuck. We lost our own fucking round. That was like, that was a moment that I was like. That's all I've been waiting for.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  We're done now.

• 4:17Georgia Hardstark?

  We're done.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  It's great to finally be done.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's nice.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  To wrap it down.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  We really wanted to get under nine years and I think we've done it.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Just under, uncomfortably close to nine years.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Cutting it real close.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  So my family has been watching Jeopardy! every single night at 7 o'clock since I can remember, truly, I think I've told you multiple times, the story of me watching it at 4:30 and then again at 7:00 and pretending I knew all the answers and my mom was like, "Are you kidding me, Karen?" She was getting so excited, I finally had to bust myself. I think I was 14 when I did it. So for that long, my family's been watching Jeopardy! at 7:00. What's hilarious is, so I see that message, we all send it to each other, we're all freaking out. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna go downstairs, watch it with my dad, and then there's gonna be this reveal, and it's gonna be incredible."

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Well, we were preempted by Monday Night Football.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Happens to the best of us. You know, happens to the best.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  So perfect. And later on, I said to my dad, like at the end of the night, I said to my dad, "Hey, so, you know, are you proud that I was on your favorite TV show?" And he goes, "You were on Monday Night Football."

• 5:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, did it play after?

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was preempted till like 10:30 or some crazy thing.

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But then it still played, okay.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  Still played, but not the same.

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Football, you guys?

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Just so perfect that I would be preempted by Monday Night Football.

• 5:48Georgia Hardstark?

  For your dad, that moment, your dad finally gonna say it.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  Yoink.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So you had to tell him instead of watching it?

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, because I had to send that post to my sister, because she lost her mind. She was just like, "Oh my God."

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I did too. That feels like...

• 6:07Georgia Hardstark?

  A moment in fucking time.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  It really does.

• 6:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think I'll ever like not be amazed by.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  I know.

• 6:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, Jeopardy.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Thank you, Jeopardy writers.

• 6:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  That was cool to be included.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It really was.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  Congratulations, you're wrong about.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  I hope you feel the same. Yeah, that was very exciting.

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  How else was your Thanksgiving break?

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Good, it was good. We binged a show that I.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Turkey.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We binged, we binged turkey. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have said it like that.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  We ate a whole turkey between the two of us.

• 6:40Georgia Hardstark?

  We binged. No, we ate a bunch and then we forgot to put the leftovers away. It was really sad.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fine.

• 6:47Speaker 03

  I forgot.

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm a leftover person. Those are my fucking favorite. Yeah.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. Especially Thanksgiving leftovers.

• 6:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  So the show that we binged over the break is the biopic version of the nonfiction book that we both loved, Say Nothing.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:09Georgia Hardstark?

  By Patrick Radden Keith.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 7:11Georgia Hardstark?

  About the IRA and the troubles and especially about Dolores Price, which I now know how to say her name correctly because of that show. How the Irish say it.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  It's tough, though.

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Dolores.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucking incredible.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Great.

• 7:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It was on Hulu. I could watch 10 more seasons of it even though I know it's over. Like, I know it, they don't, they didn't make it up.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So they can't just keep going.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  Love it.

• 7:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It's incredible.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  I'm so glad.

• 7:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  Because, yeah, I've heard a lot about it and we've talked a lot about it.

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  And you love when something that you read, something like that you know about from it feels like it's the very first iteration of it.

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Actually gets executed.

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  By people who also loved it.

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  Clearly.

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And like the acting's incredible, like both the younger generation and then the people who play, of course, people who play them, they're older, they're fucking. You know, professionals, but everyone just like, killed it. It was, it was just like, it was phenomenal.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  Great.

• 8:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's such a weird period of history that I don't think we really are taught.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  Right. Well, it's recent to us.

• 8:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  So it is that kind of thing where it maybe doesn't feel like history.

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  But, yeah, in America, we don't know enough about the troubles and what's kind of behind it.

• 8:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  What's really going on.

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So I think this will teach everyone. So say nothing on Hulu.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  And why we don't say Londonderry.

• 8:30Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't say Londonderry.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  The mistake that I will never, ever stop thinking about for the rest of my life.

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And that Ireland and Scotland, or is it Scotland, is not part of the UK.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Ireland's not part of the UK.

• 8:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for this area, and that's the problem.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I know now.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  We all know now. We all know all of the things that we know the most.

• 8:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Now.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Now.

• 8:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Now we know them.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  After the fact.

• 8:55Georgia Hardstark?

  What about you? What have you got?

• 8:57Speaker 03

  Let's see. I, I binged Monday night football, Tuesday night football, Wednesday afternoon football.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, because you were.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  There was no end to the football experience.

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  But what I loved was, I just lay on the couch. My dad watches football, but he gets it straight into his hearing aids.

• 9:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Nice.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  So it goes, drt.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  And then I'm sitting in silence with kind of the background of football. I don't have to listen to it. And then I can just watch TikTok full volume in the middle of the room. And it's like, we have a great setup. And then if anybody needs to tell the other person anything, we both stop what we're doing and go, what?

• 9:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so I need to get Vince's hearing aids, is what you're saying?

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Well, it's pretty great.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Eventually, that's what will happen. I love a sports nap. Like, when Vince puts on a sport, I'm like, great. This is the perfect, like, you know, atmosphere for a nap.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  And it's also, I think it's like, you don't, you understand the value of it, but you don't have to be invested.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  You just kind of get to enjoy the general vibe and then, and then like, go to sleep.

• 10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And I'm like, I know he's occupied, so I don't have to feel like I'm wasted, like, you know, like, I'm going to ask him questions.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like, you know, and I'm like, baby, I'm gonna go take a nap. And it's like, okay, well, I'll just hang out for an hour and a half then while you take a nap. It's like, no, you're watching the sport.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And so my nap is not interfering with your day in any way.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  They go together perfectly.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, I can feel guilty about a nap. That's how much fucking anxiety I have. But.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  I wouldn't.

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  No way.

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, when he's got, when he's occupied.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Codependency, and we're great at it.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  And you're powering through it.

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  Speaking of which, and my, I was basically binging TikTok, I guess that would be.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  On top of forced football, voluntarily binging TikTok. And so I think I told you this already, but one of the things that is now in my experience is I get to see the clips of Nick Terry's MFM animated all the time because they're in my feed. The algorithm has figured out I love myself. And so they come up all the time. And the other day, the I can't find my mom little girl in the store story that you told about.

• 11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Look for a goth.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  A goth, a punker grandma.

• 11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 03

  And so I saw that one and I'm like, so cute. And then I looked down and it was,

• 11:14Speaker 03

  it was actually retweeted by a company called Gothcloth.

• 11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  And Gothcloth, retweeting that, it got 500,000 likes.

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  And 2 million views.

• 11:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you fucking serious?

• 11:28Speaker 03

  I am dead serious. So Gothcloth, we, we wanna say, thank you.

• 11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  Just let me tell you really quick. Gothcloth was founded by a woman named Jordan Cahill in 2023.

• 11:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  So recently. It's a blend of personal design she creates and curated items that are must haves for ghosts and ghouls.

• 11:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I love ghosts and ghouls.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, so.

• 11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And witches.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Thanks, Jordan, for the RT and the, you know, I guess it's like some nice content for the goths and the ghouls that might be wanting to buy her clothing.

• 12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that. I'm glad that we're like, you know, in with the goths.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 12:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That, who better to be in with?

• 12:08Speaker 03

  I feel like we were there without being, you know, it's that kind of thing when I was in high school in the 80s, you weren't allowed to try to be in with a group if you weren't gonna like dye your hair or wear the black lipstick or whatever.

• 12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Pluck all your eyebrows and put cat liner on.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you had to.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  You had to commit.

• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  But I don't think it's like that anymore.

• 12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You can be whatever you want to be.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good. Yeah. You don't have to like, wear a uniform to be like.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  A murderino.

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's kind of what it is.

• 12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  So.

• 12:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, murderinos.

• 12:38Speaker 03

  Go to gothclothco.com, gothclothco, if you want any of those things. Because those are our new friends.

• 12:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  And also, if you're lost in a grocery store and you can't find your mom, go look for a goth.

• 12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Look for a goth or a punk or a grandma.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Or a grandma.

• 12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of being lost and found, it's December. And so, as you know, every year in December, we do a weekly donation for the holidays, $10,000. So we always like to find a charity that can make a real difference in people's lives.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  So, yeah, so this December's, we don't have a name for it, Giving Corner.

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  We're kicking it off with a donation of $10,000 to an organization called Feeding America. They're part of a nationwide network of 200 food banks and 60,000 meal programs so people can access food without judgment or stigma.

• 13:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And they work with lawmakers to make it easier for people to get food by expanding access to food assistance programs.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  And so if you'd like to join us in giving to this very important cause, you can go to their website at feedingamerica.org.

• 13:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Or you can explore their volunteer opportunities, which is a great way to give back. You can like help out at a food bank, you can host a food drive, you can just donate food to your local pantry.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, just let's all be looking out for ways to help each other and support each other and making sure people in need have what they need.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, when I was a kid, we had to utilize this, so.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I really, I really love being able to, you know.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  Help out.

• 14:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Help out, yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Help my family out when I was a kid.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's good.

• 14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for that can of peaches that exploded in our laundry room because they were expired. Don't give expired food to food banks.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  I mean, please check your, please check all those dates.

• 14:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Anyways.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a nice one. That's a good feeling, kickoff December.

• 14:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:26Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, let's get into it. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights, and then we'll get into our stories.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. So this week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul are kicking off a two-part series on Harvey Glatzman, known as the Glamour Girl Killer. He terrorized Los Angeles in the 50s.

• 14:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucked up story.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And a brand-new episode of Rewind. With Karen in Georgia, that's our third weekly episode.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's out now. This week, we're recapping episode 22, featuring two stories from the 1500. So if you haven't started binging, rewind, check it out, please do.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  It's like a Cliff's Notes binging. It's like,

• 15:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  My Favorite Murder for Dummies. Get over there. We'll make it easy those first couple hundred episodes. That's the plan. Also, this week, over on this podcast, I'll kill you. The Aaron's are talking about all things scabies.

• 15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  Learn about the history of scabies and dive into scabies before scabies dives into you.

• 15:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew a fucking dirty ass hipster who got scabies.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  My mother was convinced because I bought clothes at vintage store, at the Goodwill, basically. She's like, you are going to get scabies and then you're going to come to me. And I'm just telling you right now where I'm like, it's a coat. It's an old man's coat.

• 15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  No one's going to give me scabies.

• 15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I mean, if it would have happened to someone because of that, it would have happened to me by now. So I can guarantee.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't guarantee.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  You can guarantee it never happened to you.

• 15:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Promise.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I think. And then just a friendly reminder, the holidays are coming up fast. So get your loved one something that says, I love you almost as much as I love podcasts at ExactlyRightStore.com. Place your order by December 12th to guarantee delivery by the 25th and get yourself some fun merch.

• 16:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. And now that we're doing video, did you know we're also doing commercials? So let's take a look at the commercial that we made.

• 16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 05

  Hi, it's Nicole from the merch department. You might know me from that email you got about your recent return. And I have a question for you. Are your buns cold? Don't worry, we have the solution. And this one is a fan favorite design never before seen in sweatshirt form.

• 16:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Nicole, I love Nicole.

• 16:34Speaker 05

  Just in time for the holidays, it's the Hot Dog Crew Neck Sweatshirt. Now you can celebrate the year round delicacy that is the humble hot dog. Let your outfit be a conversation starter at every cocktail party this season, featuring this gorgeous hot dog art by Sammy Rich. It's the perfect gift for everyone in your life, from your grandma to that random stranger you met online. So run, don't walk, to our website, ExactlyRightStore.com and order your hot dog sweatshirt today.

• 17:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  Right?

• 17:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't, I remember you pitching that. And then there it is.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit, my face hurts from smiling. Like, that is so joyous.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Who better than Nicole?

• 17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  To be our salesperson?

• 17:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The head of our, like, merch department.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Nicole has been selling merch for us and with us since we started, basically, like, since right after we started doing merch.

• 17:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Professionally doing merch, yeah. She's been with us.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  And I went to her and I was like, would you do this thing?

• 17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  I just think it would be funny. And she was like, okay.

• 17:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Whatever.

• 17:40Speaker 03

  Cause she's like, always the funniest person in our staff meetings. And, and then the day we went to do it, Allison and I went to, like, go over the scripts with her and say, is there anything you want to change or do or anything? And then I was like, you took theater in high school? And she goes, no, I didn't. And then I was like, oh, okay, well, tell me if you want to not do this.

• 17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  You don't have to do it if you don't want to.

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't seem like something she would want to do, and yet, she nailed it.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  She did it.

• 18:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so impressed.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Because it's Nicole being Nicole, which I love.

• 18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so happy about that.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Yay.

• 18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to our Instagram and our TikTok and watch that video and then get a hot dog shirt.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you can see it, and you can be a part of it.

• 18:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That was joyous.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  Right? I'm so glad you liked it.

• 18:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I want a surprise video every episode. Please make me a surprise video.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:27Georgia Hardstark?

  As much as possible.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  You know what? Check and done.

• 18:31Georgia Hardstark?

  We were so scared when you said that, it was gonna be like, me? Like, talking that I didn't know about it?

• 18:36Speaker 03

  You asleep on, like, a plane again?

• 18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  That's like the old pictures I used to love to surprise you with.

• 18:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, we, we made a commercial? Fuck. No, it has nothing to do with me. I love it.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Right? And we're selling merch.

• 18:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're selling merch.

• 18:54Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 19:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house. You're out of town and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and Simply Safe is going to show you not only the video of like it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 19:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with Simply Safe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/mfm.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  That's simplysafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 19:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Simply Safe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 20:00Speaker 03

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• 20:06Georgia Hardstark?

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• 20:14Georgia Hardstark?

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• 20:23Speaker 03

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• 20:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry everyone when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie lay in the sun. And the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 21:01Speaker 03

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• 21:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 21:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 21:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins. With cushy soles, shearling lining and water resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides and booties.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat wicking sports socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 21:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house. I wear them to bed and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  Goodbye.

• 22:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, okay, I'm first. And my story today is a heavy one. This is the life and murder of a civil rights hero whose killer went free for 30 years as a clear, obvious, direct result of state sanctioned racism in good old Mississippi. This is the story of Medgar Evers.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 22:44Georgia Hardstark?

  You know this one?

• 22:45Speaker 03

  I know the overall, I know the very white child from A White School.

• 22:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Version of this. Yeah, okay. Well, the main source for this story is a book called The Autobiography of Medgar Evers, which combines his speeches and writings with historical context written by his incredible wife, Merle Evers Williams, and Manning Marable. And the rest of the sources are in the show notes. So Medgar Evers is born in 1925, grows up in Decatur, Mississippi. And his parents are James and Jessie Evers. James works in a sawmill and Jessie, his mom, does laundry and ironing at home for local white families. Medgar has three other siblings and James and Jesse are known as extremely loving and attentive parents. Medgar's father is locally known as Crazy Jim, like your dad,

• 23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  because he refuses to step off the sidewalk in town in deference to passing white people as was the rules, so.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  The bullshit rules.

• 23:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. The Everses are extremely focused on their children getting good educations despite the many barriers to this in the Jim Crow South. The Evers' children attend a segregated school, which is a 12-mile walk each way from their house. 12 miles. That's, what, half a marathon?

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Yes, and but also like, so you have to get up, what, at 6:00, 5:00, 6:00 in the morning to get to school on time?

• 24:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Seriously. So, when Medgar is only 14 years old, a man in his town named Willie Tingle is lynched for supposedly insulting a white woman. Medgar witnesses Willie, who was friends with his father, be dragged behind a truck before being shot and hanged. So, he sees this as a 14-year-old. Willie's bloody clothes are left out on a fence post for a year after this, you know, to send a message. And the Evers' kids have to walk past them every day on their way to school. The horror. So, in 1942, when Medgar is 17 and still in high school, he volunteers to join the Army by lying about his age and goes to fight in World War II. He serves in a segregated battalion in England and then

• 24:57Georgia Hardstark?

  in France. And like most, though not all, black soldiers at the time, Medgar is assigned to a non-combat role due to the racist military policies. He works as a technician, loading and unloading shipments of weapons, and he and his fellow black soldiers are routinely subject to demeaning treatment from their white commanding officers. And it's during this time in the Army that Medgar resolves to fight for civil rights when he gets back home. So, right after being discharged in 1946, Medgar and his brother bring a group of black veterans to the courthouse in their hometown of Decatur to register to vote. But on election day, a group of white men carrying guns blocks Medgar, his brother, and the others from accessing the polls.

• 25:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So, Medgar finishes high school and then attends Alcorn Agricultural and Mechanical College. On the first day of school, he meets a fellow freshman who's seven years younger named Merle Beasley. And Merle is, who's only 17, is warned by her grandmother to stay away from the older veterans. But the two get married in December of 1951 and graduate the following spring. And while in college, Medgar had been on the debate team, the business club, the football team, the track team, and been his class president his junior year, and yearbook editor, and newspaper editor in his senior year.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 26:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So, no small feat. Also, while in college, Medgar had attended an interracial seminar hosted by one all-white college and one all-black college in Mississippi. And it was at this seminar that he first learned about the NAACP and joined. After graduation in 1952, Medgar and Merle first moved to a town called Mount Bayou, Mississippi, where Medgar begins working as an insurance salesman at a business owned by a prominent black doctor. And the job gives him the opportunity to travel the Delta region and talk to a lot of people. He also applies to be the first black law student at the University of Mississippi, but, shocking, his application is rejected on a technicality.

• 26:59Georgia Hardstark?

  But of course, we know that it's more about the outrage of the alumni, you know, admitting a black person.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  I mean, but when you were saying that thing of an all-white school and an all-black school coming together to how, like, that seemed very advanced.

• 27:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  And that's also in Mississippi.

• 27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  So, it's like, obviously, there's pockets of people who are really, especially the white people who knew that change had to happen and like-

• 27:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's such a tipping point in history, like, you know, it's like, you've got the old school, you've got the new school, and they're butting heads.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Right. It's like the young people and then the old ways, basically.

• 27:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's the, like, what side of history do you want to be on?

• 27:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of a thing.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  Very valid question to this day.

• 27:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It sure is. And so, you know, getting rejected is in 1954, the same year as the Brown versus Board of Education decision passes, declaring segregation in public schools unconstitutional. But southern states and white school districts will fight this decision for years. And on the state level, the Mississippi State Legislature passes laws empowering white districts to resist segregation and puts up obstacles for black students to register for school. And it also recognizes local bodies called white citizens councils, which oppose immigration in individual cities and towns, often with armed resistance. So, people trying to make

• 28:21Georgia Hardstark?

  progress and change, people trying to keep things the old way, and, you know.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  The fight. That makes me think of, leading up to the election, there was a video about this woman who made a T-shirt with the receipt from when she voted the first time, I think, when she was 18. Did you see that video?

• 28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-uh.

• 28:41Speaker 03

  A black woman who's, you know, older now, obviously. And it was the $2 receipt for her having to pay a poll tax, which all black people had to pay when they were voting. A poll, that's what a poll tax is.

• 28:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy, when was this?

• 28:56Speaker 03

  This, like, whenever she-

• 28:58Georgia Hardstark?

  When did she vote originally?

• 28:59Speaker 03

  Right. It was, like, I can't remember. I think she said it was, like, in the late 40s.

• 29:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Or so.

• 29:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Because I would guess that woman was somewhere in her 70s or 80s.

• 29:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  But I couldn't guess. But she did a whole speech on it. And I was like, I've heard the phrase "poll tax" for so long, and I didn't know that that's what it was.

• 29:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's fucking wild.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  And that kind of, like, yeah, figuring it all these ways to restrict people or just, or just get in people's way.

• 29:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Make it difficult so that they won't try, let alone succeed.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So, Medgar asks the NAACP for their assistance in suing the University of Mississippi over his application, but their leadership instead offers him a job. And in December of 1954, he is named their Field Secretary for the State of Mississippi. So, Medgar and Merly, who by this point have two young children, Daryl and Rena, move to Jackson, which is Mississippi's capital. We both totally knew that.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. I know all the state capitals.

• 29:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Me too. They move there in January of 1955. Their third child, a son named James, will be born in Jackson in 1960. So in the wake of Brown versus Board of Education, there is an increase in violence against black people in southern states. As part of Medgar's job, he investigates murder and assault cases against black people, which I can't imagine is not just completely traumatizing.

• 30:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He provides assistance to 14-year-old Emmett Till's family after he is horrifically lynched in Money, Mississippi, in August of 1954. The Till case, and as we've heard, it causes shockwaves around the world because his mother made me Till's decision to allow the press to document the brutality of his injuries by having an open casket. Medgar himself spends days on his hands and knees in the town of Money, looking for evidence in the fields and in the river. And Till's murderers are ultimately declared not guilty by an all-white jury.

• 30:54Speaker 03

  Ridiculous.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Medgar investigates eight other murders, countless assaults, and works to assist another black applicant to the University of Mississippi Law School. And he also works tirelessly to register black voters in Mississippi. And as the civil rights movement changes and adapts to include more direct action, like boycotts, Medgar helps organize those, too. So at this point, the atmosphere in Jackson is obviously more than tense. And between 1955 and 1963, the Everest family is targeted with countless threats and several acts of violence. Merely writes that they used to get so many threatening phone calls that she would just put the phone down and walk away. You know? And she says, quote, "I began putting the phone quietly down on the table

• 31:39Georgia Hardstark?

  and directing it toward the wall. So much hatred has been poured out on that wall," end quote.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Also, that's just like, again, you're just going about your day. You have other stuff to do.

• 31:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  And then you have that kind of like, just think of like, the last time somebody yelled at you in a parking lot.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Terrifying.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Where you're like shaken and whatever. And it's like, that being brought to black people's door multiple times a day.

• 32:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Constantly, yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 03

  Or, you know, and back then, oh, you try to take any kind of action.

• 32:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't. On another occasion, Medgar is run out of a small town. He drives his car at 100 miles an hour to get away. Medgar and Merely teach their children to army crawl to the bathroom if they ever hear a loud noise aimed at the house.

• 32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And in 1963, someone throws a firebomb at the Evers Homes carport. Medgar isn't home when it happens, the kids are asleep, and so Merle, this mother of three, is so afraid of being shot if she goes outside, but she also doesn't want the house to burn down, so she goes out and puts the fire out with a curtain hose. Like, that's the best choice she has.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  She has to do it herself.

• 32:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Merle remembers asking Medgar if all of this physical danger is worth it. So she says, quote, "What about us? You have me, your wife who loves you dearly, you have these three children." And Medgar would tell her, quote, "That's why I'm doing what I'm doing," end quote. And she says also, quote, "Knowing that every day might be the last day was the force behind the deep love that Medgar and I had for each other and our children," end quote. So, on June 12, 1963, Medgar comes home around 12:30 a.m. from a very long day of work for the NAACP. And the way Merle tells the story, it sounds like Medgar thought something might happen to him that day. He had made sure to spend the previous Sunday

• 33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  with his family, not working, which was rare for him. And he made sure to kiss the kids before he left, and he called Merle just to talk three times throughout the workday. And when Medgar pulls the car into the carport shortly after midnight, his hands are full, he's carrying a stack of NAACP t-shirts into the house. Because he had been out of town and traveling a lot, Merle had let, oh, this is fucking worse, Merle had let the children wait up to greet their father when he got home. This is just... They hear the engine stop and the car door open, and then they all hear the horrifying, unmistakable sound of a gunshot. Merle runs to the door, Medgar has made it there, his keys in hand, but then

• 34:17Georgia Hardstark?

  he falls to the ground, bleeding profusely, with the fucking kids awake to greet their daddy. And the kids are between three and nine years old, and they see all of it, and they plead with their father to get up. Neighbors come over to help, but Medgar dies later that night. He's just 37 years old.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 34:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Thousands of people attend Medgar's funeral, and it's documented in Life magazine. And there's this devastating photo of Merle comforting her nine-year-old son, Daryl, on the cover of Life. Medgar is buried with full military honors at Arlington National Cemetery.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So almost immediately, it's very clear who shot Medgar Evers. In a small grove of trees about 100 feet from the Evers' house, investigators from the FBI find a rifle that matches the gun Evers had been shot with. It belongs to a 42-year-old man named Byron Delabequith. Byron is a member of his local white citizens council, one of those all-white groups devoted to maintaining segregation and white supremacy. He is also a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  They kind of go hand in hand. So Byron is arrested and charged with Medgar's murder, but the case results in two hung juries, both all-white and all-male juries, both times. And he's not tried a third time.

• 35:33Speaker 03

  I mean, just the idea that it was such a strong case, so clear, that actually it made these completely rigged white juries go, "Hold on a second, how are we going to do this?"

• 35:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're hung.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like, yeah. That speaks volumes rather than innocent.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, or not guilty.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So it not being tried a third time remains the state of affairs for 30 years. That's until an investigative reporter named Jerry Mitchell finds evidence that the state of Mississippi assisted Byron's defense team in vetting jurors for both trials.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 36:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a fucking, no, no, you can't do that.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  I've never heard of this. Like, this feels like I'm trying to rack my brain of like, "Have I seen like a movie about this or something?"

• 36:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You have.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll tell you, you want to go down the movie? The movie and book is, first the book and then the movie, is Ghosts of Mississippi.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 36:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, yes, yes. Famous, amazing movie directed by Ron Howard. But so Jerry Mitchell finds that evidence. He's this incredible investigative reporter. So Mississippi has a governing body called the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission. And in theory, the role of this body was to protect the rights of the state from federal overreach, which we can fucking talk a lot about states' rights. Let's not. In practice, it really functioned to protect the racist interests of the local white citizens councils. It formed directly after the passing of Brown versus Board of Education. So in both trials of Byron Delabequith, representatives from this body collected information on potential jurors and passed this on to Byron's defense team.

• 37:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So very specific. Yeah. You know, obviously egregious. So all this starts to happen in the late 80s and Byron has finally tried a third time in 1994. Takes that long. In addition to the evidence from the crime scene, which remains the same from the first two trials, multiple people testify that Byron had boasted about killing Medgar over the years, including at KKK rallies. And this time, a jury, which is no longer all white or all male, finds him guilty and he is sentenced to life in prison. And this part of the story is where the book and movie adaptation of Ghosts of Mississippi happens. Byron dies in 2001 at the age of 80.

• 37:57Georgia Hardstark?

  So Byron probably would not have been tried were it not for Merle Evers. She eventually remarried and is now known as Merle Evers-Williams. And after the new evidence about the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission's influence on the first two trials was revealed, Merle tirelessly pushed for several years for Byron to be retried. Merle says, quote, "Because I loved Medgar, I didn't want him to be forgotten. That was the first motivation. The second was to bring positive change if I possibly could." In the years after her husband's death, Merle moved her children to California and attended Pomona College. She had a career in marketing and corporate community outreach. And then in the 90s, became a member of the board at the NAACP.

• 38:40Georgia Hardstark?

  She says that her primary motivation for attaining such an incredible career was vengeance. She says, quote, "Tell me that I can't do something. I'll kill myself trying to do it." That's right. End quote. Yep. Fucking chills. Merle eventually becomes the NAACP board's first chairwoman. First lady. Yep. First female leader. In 2013, she delivers the invocation at the second inauguration of President Barack Obama. Wow. Remember that? She's the first woman and the first non-clergy member to do so. Which is like, bring us fucking back. So good. Remember? I mean, yeah.

• 39:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Medgar Evers is still remembered as one of the brightest heroes of the civil rights movement. There's a college in Brooklyn named after him and a statue of him in Jackson, Mississippi. Every June, Jackson has the Medgar Evers Homecoming Celebration, and actually, B.B. King played at it every year before his death in 2015.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 39:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Medgar had told Merle that he was choosing to risk his life for his children's futures, and they all went on to do great things. Sadly, Darryl Evers, Medgar, and Merle's oldest son, died of colon cancer in 2001. He was a prominent artist. Rena Evers had a 32-year career with United Airlines and now runs the Medgar and Merle Evers Institute and serves on several nonprofit boards. And James, the youngest, is a successful photographer who works on promotional photos for films and TV. And actually, James took this incredible photo of his two sons with Barack Obama and Merle at that inauguration in 2013.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  So last year, Merle and Medgar's house was turned into a national monument, which people can visit. At a gala honoring her, Merle, who's now 91, said, quote, "I ask you to please always keep Medgar Evers' memory in your minds and in your hearts," end quote. And that is the story of the death and legacy of a true hero of the civil rights movement, Medgar Evers.

• 40:45Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 40:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I did not know these details.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Like, yeah.

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  There's just so many stories of brave people that are not told.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  Well, and they're like, they're crucial stories. It's the details of how that kind of work gets done and pushed forward, and it's by people who truly knew they were putting their life on the line and did it. They didn't back away from the risk, and they didn't back away from, like, all of that fear. They had to just, they kind of like, lived in that fear and powered through it anyway. And that's the piece of it that's, it's so incredible. It's like, he didn't stay home from work. He didn't, he just kept going, knowing that he had to.

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  It reminds me of when they started the desegregation, Ruby Bridges. The five-year-old girl who had to be the first little black girl who went to a white school.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  She's a baby. I mean, we've talked about this before, but like I recently saw a picture and it was like her now.

• 41:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  And her from then. And it just like, they made a five-year-old do that.

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They made her get escorted into the school so she could get an education.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, like by her. She was alone.

• 42:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like for by fear of being killed. It's like, it's just fucking insane.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 42:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Amazing job. Thank you.

• 42:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. I wanted to not do that shitty, so.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, you did it great. And also, just like, yeah, I love that idea of like, we don't know this, let's tell each other so that we know it and other people know it.

• 42:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 42:36Speaker 03

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 42:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 42:45Speaker 03

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• 43:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 43:28Speaker 03

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• 43:36Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Goodbye.

• 43:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 43:42Speaker 03

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• 43:44Georgia Hardstark?

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• 43:57Speaker 03

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• 44:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy. You can wear them around the house. I wear them to bed and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 44:32Speaker 03

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• 44:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM. Code MFM at checkout.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 44:49Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month, coordinating their own care.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 45:08Speaker 03

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• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 45:16Speaker 03

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• 45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 45:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 45:38Speaker 03

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• 45:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services. Must be 18 years or older.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 45:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health dot com slash murder.

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Well, we're gonna take a turn, but it isn't really the turn away that we usually do, which I kind of love. We're gonna turn toward a different direction.

• 46:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  But also serious.

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Because December is HIV/AIDS Awareness Month.

• 46:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  If you weren't there, many of our listeners were not, but in the spring of 1980, the national news began to report on a mysterious fatal disease that was spreading across the country, almost entirely in the gay male population. Almost immediately, those who fell ill were treated like pariahs in the healthcare system. Being diagnosed with AIDS was seen as a death sentence, stoking fear, paranoia, and intense homophobia. The AIDS crisis in America and the way it was handled by the Reagan administration and by some average Americans themselves will always be a stain on our history.

• 46:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  But like most of the stories that we tell each other, there is a glimmer of light in this story because at San Francisco General Hospital... Sorry, I can't start it already. I just feel so proud.

• 47:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I was gonna say that.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  Because at San Francisco General Hospital, a young gay male nurse from Florida will spearhead the first dedicated AIDS ward in the United States.

• 47:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God, this is incredible.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  And when he does, a staff of heroic nurses and doctors will defy fears and cultural taboos to provide compassionate care to those patients dying from AIDS. And that simple generous act of compassion will ultimately prove to be revolutionary.

• 47:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  This is the story of Nurse Cliff Morrison and San Francisco General's Ward 5B.

• 47:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit. I don't know anything about this.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  I knew like a little, but again, it's that same thing where you're kind of like, I know a little. There's an incredible documentary called 5B that came out in 2018.

• 47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay.

• 47:54Speaker 03

  So definitely watch that. And then there's also interviews with and articles by Cliff Morrison and fellow 5B nurse Allison Moad. Those are the two main sources, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

• 48:09Speaker 03

  Okay, so first I'm gonna tell you about Cliff Morrison. He is born in the early 50s in Live Oak, Florida, which is a small town on the state's panhandle. And by his own description, Cliff says it's, quote, "about 90 miles from anywhere." So Cliff grows up in poverty. No one in his family ever graduated high school, let alone college. They also didn't own a car, a telephone, or a TV. So, true poverty. But from a young age, Cliff works as a field hand to support his family. A very young age. That's very hard work, obviously, very physically demanding. So by the time he's 12, he decides that he doesn't want to do that job anymore.

• 48:51Georgia Hardstark?

  12, he's like, "Enough."

• 48:53Speaker 03

  So, when did he start? We're like, yeah.

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fucked up.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  Serious. So he heads down to a small local hospital and he asks if he can please work there.

• 49:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  Yep. So he gets a job in the housekeeping department. He mops the floors, he takes out the trash. But after a while, he realizes he wants to care for the patients. Before long, Cliff is promoted to an orderly position, a job he holds throughout high school. And after he graduates, he goes to nursing school in Jacksonville.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 49:24Speaker 03

  So he admits that he was self-conscious about going into nursing at first because back then, the field was dominated by women. But by 1971, 20-year-old Cliff is a registered nurse and he's earning $10,000 a year, which is about...

• 49:39Georgia Hardstark?

  What year?

• 49:40Speaker 03

  71.

• 49:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna go 38,000?

• 49:44Speaker 03

  78,000.

• 49:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit!

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's making good money.

• 49:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's very good money.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I think even in today's standards for some nurses, it's like...

• 49:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:53Georgia Hardstark?

  They don't get paid that, okay.

• 49:54Speaker 03

  So, that's, of course, the most anyone in his family has ever made.

• 49:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  But more than that, Cliff has really found his calling. He says, quote, "I realized I really liked being a nurse. It's where I felt the most comfortable. I'd always been told that I was a caring person, so it made sense that I gravitated toward that profession." So Cliff bounces from Jacksonville down to Miami. There's a thriving gay community down there. There were lots of job opportunities. But it's the 70s. And at this time, down in South Florida, there's a woman named Anita Bryant, who's decided to wage war on the LGBTQ community of South Florida.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  She and her cronies are lobbying hard to have a recently passed ordinance that outlaws discrimination based on sexual orientation repealed.

• 50:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Repealed.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  They want to get rid of that.

• 50:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I want you to take the steps you've so fought for so hard and take them away from you. Like, let's go back in fucking history instead of forward. What the fuck?

• 50:59Speaker 03

  What does that sound like to you?

• 51:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. It sounds really familiar, though.

• 51:03Speaker 03

  Hmm. Let's repeal rights, huh? How's your body feel right now?

• 51:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It feels like I want to get a hysterectomy.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  A little second class?

• 51:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Anita Bryant, I believe there's...

• 51:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Her getting pied?

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Yes. She... Yes. If I'm right, there's an amazing video because she...

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Who did it? It's someone who did it. That's like...

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Because she was also... She wasn't... She was a performer.

• 51:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  She was like a singer and stuff. And she was kind of like back... It was like back in those Perry Como days where people were very like clean cut. It was all about like late 60s, kind of like all American clean cut, whatever. And so she was kind of like popular in a way.

• 51:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  And then suddenly she was like, but you know who I really want to oppress is these gays.

• 51:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  And so, yeah, there is that legendary video where she gets pied while she's doing, I think, a press conference.

• 51:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was by gay activist Tom Higgins.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can look that video up on YouTube. It's pretty great. But also, it's like, at the time, it's like, oh, how dare you? And it's like, it's pie. You're an asshole and you got a pie in the face. You deserve it. So basically, those bigoted activists drum up such an increasingly hostile energy in South Florida, which has up until then been a safe haven for gay people, that Cliff decides it's time for him to move to California. He's always wanted to spend time in the Bay Area. And of course, San Francisco has become like the mecca for gay people to escape to from all around the country. So in 1979, Cliff moves there and takes a job at San Francisco General, which is, at

• 52:43Speaker 03

  the time, a teaching hospital for University of California at San Francisco. So what's funny is Cliff doesn't actually take to the city right away. It's cold, it's foggy, the weather, there's not a lot of sunshine in San Francisco. So he misses the Florida sunshine. He's also not clicking with the gay community like so many places that can become emblematic of like a movement or a subculture. San Francisco is filled with transplants. So he feels like it's a little artificial. So he figures, okay, he'll stay for a year or two and then he's going to go try somewhere else. But all that changes in 1981. The murmurings of a strange deadly illness that's largely affecting young gay men begin to circulate.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  So Cliff and his colleagues at SF General start seeing some of these patients come into their ICU. They're all suffering from the same symptoms. They've lost weight, they have fevers that last for days, they have lesions on their skin, swollen lymph nodes, some of them are confused and delirious. And they almost always die from this illness. The news goes from calling it a mystery illness to saying it's a new type of cancer affecting gay men. Because they just have no idea. By 1982, and I have told you this story, I told you the last time we talked about the AIDS crisis, but this happening in 1981, I absolutely remember where I was sitting in the living room, watching the six o'clock news with my mom, or if it was my mom was

• 54:14Speaker 03

  there, it was the seven o'clock news, and Dave McElhatten on the Channel 2 news, and the little like chyron next to him just said, "mystery illness." And he basically was like, "A mystery illness is in San Francisco."

• 54:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Terrifying.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, really strange. So by 1982, this mystery illness is given a name, Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, or AIDS for short. Cases are being identified throughout the country now, with many, but most importantly, not all of the victims being gay men. So even the best medical experts and the most decorated doctors can't fully explain why these patients are getting sick. And that uncertainty begins to fuel a widespread panic and blatant homophobia. According to the website Hospital Watchdog, they say, quote, "Some men suspected as gay and infected with HIV were kicked out of their apartments

• 55:07Speaker 03

  and fired from their jobs. In one instance, their desks were taken to a parking lot and set on fire. Insurance companies were screening out gay men to deny coverage by sending out surveys, asking if they worked as a florist or a hairdresser."

• 55:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. In actuality, AIDS is affecting people from all walks of life, but it's an extremely hostile time for members of the gay community. It's a hostile time anyway, and then this comes along.

• 55:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Then it's like, they almost feel justified in their homophobia.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Those bigots, yeah. So even within the medical establishment, and even in progressive cities like San Francisco, some nurses, doctors, and orderlies are reluctant, or they outright refuse to treat patients with certain symptoms, or if they suspect that they're gay. And when those patients are admitted, they are usually isolated and treated more like walking biohazards than as human beings. Actually, literal hazard signs are sometimes plastered on their hospital room doors, meals are left in the hallway outside of their rooms, basic care like changing their bed sheets or cleaning them goes undone, out of this fear of being infected. And Cliff

• 56:24Speaker 03

  is seeing all of this as a nurse. And then, one day, it hits even closer to home. He comes back from work to find his roommate Wayne collapsed on the hallway floor. Cliff says, quote, "We had been talking a lot about the disease because it was just starting to make headlines, and I had a feeling that's what he had." So for days, Cliff does everything he can to care for Wayne at home, but Wayne's condition doesn't improve. And it's not easy to find a hospital that can or will admit him, which is such a weird thing to think of, like-

• 56:57Georgia Hardstark?

  The place you're supposed to go when you're sick.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  The given.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  And they're like, "Oh, no."

• 57:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Like when you need care, and they're like, "Well, the laws say that I can't take care of you and give you the care that you-"

• 57:09Speaker 03

  Or, "We're just gonna, to protect ourselves, we're gonna not admit you."

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Sounds so familiar.

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. So Cliff reaches out to his colleagues at San Francisco General. He's finally given the name of a doctor who works out of a private hospital that will take Wayne. And there Cliff watches as his friend is rushed into an isolation room, surrounded by fearful staff, then shut away and left alone. When Cliff tries to go into that room, the medical staff stops him. They warn him that it's too dangerous, but Cliff doesn't hesitate. He tells them, quote, "I'm a nurse and I've been taking care of Wayne for days. Whatever he's got, I probably have." And he goes into the room. So at the time, it's very common for medical staff treating these patients to wear head to toe PPE, including what's casually referred to as a space suit, which are those heavy

• 58:00Speaker 03

  duty biohazard suits that we've all seen in movies.

• 58:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  So the staff who have been wearing suits like that, if not the heavy duty PPE, is just staring at Cliff in shock and horror as he walks into Wayne's room without any protective gear on at all. Cliff later says, "I didn't want to wear a space suit to take care of my friend." So seeing these patients at San Francisco General, as well as his roommate, being neglected, isolated, and denied compassion in the final days of their lives infuriates Cliff. The fact is, at this time, most patients with AIDS do not survive. And Cliff sees that their deaths are neither peaceful nor dignified.

• 58:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And then so many of their families had shunned them already. So it's not like, all they have is each other and they're not even being allowed to see each other.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  They're not allowed in, or like their friends don't know that this is the part that they're in, like they're just not, it's like-

• 58:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone's freaking out.

• 59:00Speaker 03

  It's like a leper colony.

• 59:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 59:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. So these patients die in pain, surrounded by fear, and often alone. And this, the diagnosis of this disease cuts them off from care in a time that they need it the most. So Cliff decides he needs to change this. He starts by volunteering with The Shanty Project, which is a San Francisco-based nonprofit that provides people with terminal illnesses compassion and human connection. As they die. By the early eighties, many of the people they work with are sick members of the gay community. So for Cliff, this volunteer work becomes an invaluable education in palliative care. Back at San Francisco General, word spreads quickly about his work

• 59:43Speaker 03

  with the Shanty Project, and before long, doctors, nurses, and even patients are coming to Cliff for guidance. He's suddenly a very helpful middleman who can see, share, and translate both the clinical and patient perspectives in a time that's incredibly confusing and incredibly scary.

• 1:00:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  But as more people get sick, the hysteria is dialed up and the misinformation only increases. Meanwhile, ICU beds at San Francisco General hit capacity as hundreds of patients being diagnosed with AIDS all spread throughout different wards.

• 1:00:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  The quality of their care is entirely inconsistent, depending on their respective nurses and doctors' mindsets. So you get a bad area of the hospital, you get a bad doctor or nurse.

• 1:00:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  The idea of that is like, we take it for granted. I mean, anybody that has insurance and that gets to even go to the hospital takes it for granted. I definitely do.

• 1:00:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  But then this idea that you would get a thing that would suddenly turn those people against you.

• 1:00:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they have hatred towards you.

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're supposed to be treating you while you're actively dying.

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the hospital administrators quickly realize that they're in over their heads, and again, they turn to Cliff for help. They want him to take on a clinical coordinator job so they can oversee these patients with AIDS in the hospital, and Cliff accepts. There's immediately a plan to quarantine these patients in a separate part of the hospital. But at first, Cliff hates this idea. He compares it to being sent to a leper colony. But then the more he thinks about it, the more practical a separate ward feels. They'll have dedicated space and an opportunity to provide a more tailored kind of care. So he agrees. He's given an area of the hospital on the fifth floor, used as a sleeping area.

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  For resident doctors known as Ward 5B and an outpatient clinic called Ward 86. But Cliff realizes he's going to need money to set up and fund this new dedicated clinic. And that's when Dr. Mervyn Silverman, San Francisco's Director of Public Health at the time, invites Cliff to meet with Mayor Dianne Feinstein. Cliff remembers, quote, "We went to her office and sat down and she said, 'We just so happened to have several million dollars surplus in the budget this year. If you promise me that you will spend this money appropriately, I will give you some of the surplus and you do what you need to do. Just make sure you do it right.'"

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. When does that fucking happen?

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  I mean, for real, especially considering, at this time, 1981, President Ronald Reagan hasn't even addressed this public health issue, a very pressing public health issue to the country at all. He has not acknowledged it.

• 1:02:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:33Speaker 03

  And he won't until 1985.

• 1:02:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  And even then, in 1985, he just very briefly mentions AIDS in a press conference, just like in passing. And then after that, it's two more years before he addresses this national health crisis in any significant way.

• 1:02:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Sick.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  It takes them six years to talk about AIDS.

• 1:02:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because people are actively dying.

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  Yes. And by then, nearly 47,000 Americans have been infected with HIV or have died from AIDS.

• 1:03:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:03:07Speaker 03

  Cliff adds, quote, "As I look back on that meeting with Dianne Feinstein, that was one of the more wonderful moments of my career. That's the first time I'd actually seen a politician show true leadership."

• 1:03:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  So now that he has both the space and funding, Cliff needs nurses and doctors to work in Ward 5B. So he posts notices about the forthcoming AIDS ward throughout the hospital. He ends up hiring 11 nurses, as well as a team of social workers, physical therapists, dieticians, chaplains, and occupational therapists. And for him, staffing 5B isn't just about finding qualified medical professionals, it's about hiring people who genuinely want to work there.

• 1:03:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  He knows that'll be the key to improving this poor quality of care that everyone is seeing everywhere else. But Cliff insists on being honest about the risks of this work. He has worked with enough AIDS patients without contracting the illness himself to know that that's possible. But generally, information is sparse, and he needs his staff to be informed and accepting of the unknowns. One 5B staffer later recalls an early conversation with Cliff where he says, quote, "Go home and talk to your significant others because we don't know. We can't tell you that you're not going to get this disease."

• 1:04:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's terrifying.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Georgia Hardstark?

  How brave.

• 1:04:29Speaker 03

  And then Cliff talks to the patients themselves to find out what they want out of this ward. He'll later say, quote, "The first thing I heard was, I want to feel like I'm being treated like a person." I have to stop crying on this podcast. It's fucking...

• 1:04:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you need to do it for both of us, because I can't. Because of all those meds, because of all that Botox. Like, I just don't have the power.

• 1:04:50Speaker 03

  I see it. There's a tear in that eye, right there.

• 1:04:52Georgia Hardstark?

  There is.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, it's just, look, I lost a friend to AIDS who was 21 years old.

• 1:04:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  And it was, it was a big surprise, and it was, he was my friend from 6th grade.

• 1:05:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:05:06Speaker 03

  And I loved him very much, Ken Mason. And to see him, he, thank God, had a very loving, very accepting family who took care of him right till the end. And so I got to go see him, basically, in his, at his mom's house. And it was one of the worst things I've ever experienced, to kind of see that. He was ravaged. I mean, he was just like, he was emaciated. And it's so easy to think about all of these men who, in the 70s, were like, oh, you know, everyone's encouraged to come out, and we need to fight for our rights.

• 1:05:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Finally, yeah.

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  And we need to, like, be the people who we are. And then suddenly, this happens.

• 1:05:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 03

  And it enables these bigots to talk about gay people, gay men, like you got what you deserved.

• 1:06:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. It's cruel.

• 1:06:04Speaker 03

  Which is so disgusting. It's just like, yeah, everything about it is so... Is so horrifying. And then the leadership that intentionally didn't help.

• 1:06:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, you gotta wonder what would have happened if a Democrat had been in the, had been in office at the time.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  Or a decent human being.

• 1:06:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  Like, somebody that would

• 1:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone with empathy.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Look at that and, and say, "It's insane, but here's what's beautiful." Basically, that's where Cliff comes in. He goes, "We'll do it ourselves, and we'll do it for each other."

• 1:06:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  And there's a lot of lesbian women and a lot of female nurses who went in and were like, "We will take care of them. We'll do this, and we'll take these risks." Because this is, we cannot just let these men die to protect ourselves.

• 1:06:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  That is not the point of being a nurse.

• 1:06:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Speaker 03

  Or a doctor. And they weren't the only ones who felt that way. Thank God.

• 1:06:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Speaker 03

  And because of that, then essentially, after being able to give that care, they proved that you can give that care.

• 1:07:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  And basically, they, they went out there and they were the first line, first responders to go, "Look, we did it and we didn't catch it. Therefore, you need to do it."

• 1:07:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:17Speaker 03

  The idea that they had to do that, though.

• 1:07:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And not know.

• 1:07:20Speaker 03

  And the in-between

• 1:07:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:22Speaker 03

  Of all the people that died alone and isolated and, and it's just, it's disgusting and horrible. So... When Cliff asked those patients what they wanted out of the ward, he said, the first, quote, "The first thing I heard was, 'I want to feel like I'm being treated like a person.'" They said, "I want people who are not afraid of me. I want people to touch me. I want to know that I'm going to be cleaned up every day." They were talking about being treated with dignity and compassion.

• 1:07:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Basics.

• 1:07:56Speaker 03

  The very, the lowest bar.

• 1:07:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  So, the virus that causes AIDS, HIV, is finally identified in May of 1983. And two months later, in July of 1983, Ward 5B officially opens to the public. It's helmed by Head Nurse Allison Moed, who oversees a team of 11 dedicated nurses. Some of these nurses are straight, some are gay. All of them have agreed to put aside their personal fears surrounding AIDS to offer compassionate care to their sick and vulnerable patients. Allison later says, quote, "I was enthralled by this idea of love for your fellow being." This was a confluence of nurses, of people, who wanted to take care of this population that had been stigmatized,

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  discriminated against, not cared for during a period of their lives where their lives were ending. Professionally, how do we care for them? Caring is what we were about.

• 1:08:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, imagine that.

• 1:08:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. So 5B is unlike anywhere else at the time. Here, the doctors and nurses don't speak down to their patients, and they certainly don't judge them. In fact, patients are treated as a member of their own care team, and they're involved in all the conversations about their treatment. 5B is one of the only units in the US where people can visit outside of set visiting hours.

• 1:09:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:09:21Speaker 03

  And those visitors don't have to be literal family members. In the biological sense, they can be members of the patient's chosen family. The staff even sneaks in their patient's pets when they can. Also, on 5B staffers don't use the same full-body PPE many other facilities across the country do. Instead, they wear protective equipment when necessary. The 5B staff use common sense precautions that keep the patient's dignity in mind, remembering the value of human touch and connection. Cliff says, quote, "We knew by now that AIDS was not transmitted casually. I had no qualms about climbing onto the bed with my patients to hold them."

• 1:10:06Speaker 03

  That had never been done before. As a nurse, you might touch someone's hand, but you would never take them in your arms.

• 1:10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, that image.

• 1:10:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. This is a huge deal. For a sense of timeline, this is five years before that famous moment where Princess Diana made history publicly shaking the hand of someone with HIV. Five years before that.

• 1:10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  So it was at a time where... Touching a person who had AIDS, let alone holding them to provide comfort, is seen as extremely risky by almost everyone. There's also a large outside component to Ward 5B, which includes a roster of volunteers from the gay community, local hospices, and the Shanty Project, who do things like decorate and furnish the ward. That's so hacky. It's like, the gay men go in and they're like, "Oh, the lighting in here is terrible." It's just like, but it matters.

• 1:11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's all about dignity.

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's quality of life. They also run errands, they offer counseling, they look for housing for the patients when they get discharged, because there are patients who are getting discharged. Nurse Allison Moed says, quote, "On a broad level, we learned how to take care of patients who were going through this terrible disease. It was about caring, not about curing. It was about touching and interacting, letting people know they were safe, letting people know that they were accepted, letting people know that their wishes were going to be listened to, that their thoughts about their care and options were going to be respected and heard. That was not necessarily the mode in those days." So, very quickly, the demand for Ward 5B exceeds its capacity.

• 1:11:48Speaker 03

  When a patient passes away and a bed becomes available, it's quickly filled by someone from a lengthy wait list. Then in May of 1986, the unit expands into Ward 5A, adding about 30 more beds. So, as Ward 5B's profile rises, politicians, advocates, and celebrities stop by to show support for the staff's efforts and the patients' recovery. Of course, given the stigma around HIV and AIDS at the time, not everyone is in support of what's going on at SF General. Homophobic members of the public are incensed that public dollars have gone to the funding of 5B. And in cases where the patients are well enough to move around the hospital and visit

• 1:12:32Speaker 03

  the cafeteria, hysteria erupts around 5B patients using the water fountains.

• 1:12:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  A group of four nurses even sues San Francisco General over fears that 5B is risking their personal health.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  But that case is ultimately shot down as 5B's model of care is deemed safe and appropriate treatment. Before long, it becomes the gold standard for HIV and AIDS care throughout the world. Meanwhile, the mission of 5B stands firm. In 1985, The New York Times reports that just two staffers have left the ward in its first two years of operation, which is, quote, "a much lower number than hospital wards normally experience." Allison Moed says, quote, "We learned that compassion is one of those things that doesn't become depleted. The more you give it, it actually replenishes."

• 1:13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  It's one of those things where the more you give, the better you feel and want to give. That's what love's about, right? There was a very loving exchange and loving feeling on the unit, and I know you could see it. We were really committed to what we were doing and passionate about being able to do it. So by the mid 1990s, advancements in medication change everything. An AIDS diagnosis is no longer an automatic death sentence, and before long, HIV is regarded as a manageable chronic condition. Fewer and fewer beds in wards 5A and 5B are occupied, and by 2006, both wards are officially disbanded.

• 1:14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  2006, that's like such a long time.

• 1:14:08Speaker 03

  Such a long time.

• 1:14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:14:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cliff Morrison continues working as an advocate for those people with HIV and AIDS. In interviews, he's not one to talk about his own emotions or experience, which is on brand for such a dedicated healthcare provider. But like so many gay men of his age, he lost an unimaginable number of loved ones to this disease. Cliff has said, quote, "I have dealt with survivor's guilt on and off through the years and still suffer from PTSD. I don't have any peers because they all died."

• 1:14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 03

  "Today, the majority of my friends are 20 years younger than me, but I have absolutely no regrets. I would do it all again. I was a gay man, but I was a nurse first."

• 1:14:50Speaker 03

  The impact of his work with 5B endures. Today, there's a memorial plaque hanging at the hospital that says, quote, "On July 25, 1983, here on Ward 5B, a group of caregivers gathered to confront a new epidemic, AIDS. They created a haven of acceptance and compassion at a time when others were calling for isolation and rejection. They saw fellow human beings where others saw only disease and contagion. Together with a generous, loving volunteer community, they developed a world-renowned center of excellence dedicated to quality of care for the living and the dying. This plaque commemorates all who served here and remembers all who died."

• 1:15:33Speaker 03

  And that is the story of Cliff Morrison and the heroic staff at Ward 5B.

• 1:15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, holy shit.

• 1:15:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:15:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Unbelievable. Good job.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  I mean, I think being in any way first

• 1:15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  is one of the hardest things to do. You don't have anybody behind you.

• 1:15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  Especially like in Cliff's situation, he was having to teach and basically lecture doctors of like, like that whole thing of, I'd have it, I have it already. If, if it's bad, I have it. So there's no reason I don't go take care of my friend. And that kind of energy, which is like risking it, that's the ultimate sacrifice for something is like, so you're not just standing by letting something go on.

• 1:16:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like courageous compassion and being the first person to do that is scary and hard, but must be done.

• 1:16:32Speaker 03

  And then you become, Cliff became this example of like, well, if he's doing it, then it must be okay for me. Which must mean that this hysteria is not the truth. That it's essentially like, we actually have to figure. And now, you know, now we know that like there, there was very specific ways that HIV was transmitted.

• 1:16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  So that whole idea was completely incorrect. It was just, no one knew the, the exact medical truth.

• 1:16:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Because there wasn't enough research going into it because the government was ignoring it completely.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  Because the president wouldn't say it was happening. I mean, like, if you want to read Cliff Morrison's actual own writing about this, there is a website you can go to. It'll be listed in the sources, and it's an article he wrote called "They Did Not Die Peacefully." And he wrote it in 2011. So it really is like the firsthand account. If you're looking for that, that's the source that you should pull and read, because I'm his firsthand account, you know.

• 1:17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, it's incredible.

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  Is what everyone should read.

• 1:17:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I do what I do best and recommend a fictionalized version of this?

• 1:17:42Speaker 03

  Oh, sure.

• 1:17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  As in a book, in book form. This sounds exactly like a book that I listened to recently that was incredible, that I highly recommend, is called "The Great Believers" by Rebecca Mackay. It's an incredible book. It takes place in the 1980s, in this world, in Chicago. And it just gives you, you know, it's almost historical fiction, and it gives you a time and a place of this specific one that is, that's hard to imagine unless you've lived through it, but so necessary so we can have compassion and empathy.

• 1:18:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, great job. I mean, what a fucking episode.

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:18:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, hard hitting.

• 1:18:20Speaker 03

  We're kicking off December the way only we can.

• 1:18:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, that's what we're here for. If, you know, go listen to, again, "You're Wrong About" too, if you want more info.

• 1:18:32Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:18:33Georgia Hardstark?

  More interesting info.

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  And be brave, and take care of your fellow man.

• 1:18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  And do your best.

• 1:18:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Do your best.

• 1:18:40Speaker 03

  You've got it in you.

• 1:18:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You do. Be first.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And stay sexy.

• 1:18:44Speaker 03

  And don't.

• 1:18:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Get murdered.

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ahhh!

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:18:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

• 1:19:01Speaker 03

  Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle-Crayton.

• 1:19:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:19:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Our researchers are Maren McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 1:19:11Speaker 03

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:19:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:19:17Speaker 03

  Goodbye.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

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