141: Achieving Success Begins With What You Have, With Pete Roberts

0:00:00 – Opening 0:04:45 – Pete Roberts, Origin USA. Business growth. Important lessons. New mind set. Jiu Jitsu. 2:10:33 – Support. 2:40:11 – Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 141 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  March 15th, 1631. Most loving and kind Father and Mother, my humble duty remembered unto you. Trusting in God, you are in good health and I pray, remember my love unto my brother Joseph and thank him for his kindness that I found at his hand in London. I know loving Father, and I do confess that I was an undutiful child unto you when I lived there with you and by you, for which I am much sorrowful and grieved for it. Trusting in God that he will guide me, that I will never offend you so anymore, and I

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  trust in God that you will forgive me for it.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  My writing unto you is to let you understand what a country this New England is where we live.

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  Here are but a few Indians. A great part of them died this winter. It was thought it was of the plague.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  Here is timber good store and acorns good store, and here is good store of fish, if we had boats to go for it and lines to serve fishing.

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  People here are subject to diseases.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  For there, for here two hundred odd have died of scurvy and of the burning fever, and beside as many lie lame.

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  All Sudbury men are dead but three, and three women and some children.

• 1:53Jocko Willink?

  Here is no cloth to be had, to make no apparel and shoes.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  So I pray, Father, send me four or five yards of cloth to make some apparel, and loving Father, though I be far distant from you, yet I pray you remember me as your child, and we do not know how long we may subsist.

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  I pray, do not put away your chop stuff, for I think that in the end, if I live, it must be my living, for we do not know how long this plantation will stand.

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  God hath taken away the chiefest stud in the land, Mr. Johnson, and the lady Arabella, his wife, which was the chiefest man of estate in the land, and one that would have done most good.

• 2:50Jocko Willink?

  So Father, I pray, consider of my cause, for here will be but a very poor thing, no being, without loving, Father, your help with provisions from Old England.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  I thought to come home in this ship, for my provisions were almost all spent, but that I humbly thank you for your great love and kindness in sending some provisions, or else I should, and mine, have been half famished.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  But now I will, if it please God, that I have my health, I will plant what corn I can.

• 3:30Jocko Willink?

  My wife remembers her humble duty unto you, and to my mother, and my love to brother Joseph. Thus I leave you to the protection of Almighty God.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  Watertown, New England.

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  And that is an unsigned letter.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  From, as I said, 1631, so these are settlers coming into New England. The letter is written back to a father in England. And

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  obviously written from a place called New England, which is where I grew up, and where I am in the woods of right now, in Franklin County, Maine.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  And we have a guest today that is also a New Englander, a jujitsu black belt, a business owner, and a friend of mine by the name of Pete Roberts. He's been on the podcast before, so if you haven't listened to Podcast 93 yet, and you need to go get the backstory of how I met Peter, and how this little deal got underway, go listen to Podcast 93, and then you can come back here. And listen to the rest of this one. So here we go. Pete, welcome back.

• 4:50Pete Roberts?

  Thanks for having me and I'm extremely honored to be back on and was a little bit nervous to come back on. But, uh, after all your razzing and, you know, motivating and flanking me and after what you just read, I'm ready to go.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we got it pretty easy compared to those guys.

• 5:06Pete Roberts?

  Holy shit. Yeah.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  And it's interesting because, you know, I live in Southern California. Echo, as we know, is from Hawaii.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  And what's the temperature variation in Hawaii?

• 5:17Speaker 02

  In what? In Maine?

• 5:18Jocko Willink?

  No, no. In Hawaii, how much does the temperature vary?

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Oh, one degree. Just kidding. I don't know. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50.

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  In the past three days, there was a 40 degree change here in the weather in Maine. It went from like 90 to 50.

• 5:37Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it absolutely gives you a false sense of hope.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  One day, actually.

• 5:43Jocko Willink?

  These people that settled here clearly were some sturdy stock that came up here. You think about what they went through and leaving the comforts of England. And what I was thinking about is it's not like these were woodsman from England, right? They weren't hunters from England. I mean, I'm sure some of them were, but they were people from England, from London. And then they were all of a sudden surrounded by this.

• 6:06Pete Roberts?

  And you can't prepare for, like, there's nothing you can do conditioning wise to prepare for this. You just, you, you get here and you survive, you know, and that's what they were doing. You're talking about like, cause his dad had sent him provisions. That was his insurance policy, you know? I mean, hey, here's what we can offer you. And I never thought about on the other side, side of things. As a parent, like, like who, who knows what they would, they had for work or jobs? Who knows if they sent them everything they had financially, what they could afford to send their son to keep him alive in New England?

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  And you've got to pretty much figure that when your kid sails across the sea in 1631, you are never going to see them again.

• 6:48Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  Right? You've got to figure you're never going to see him again.

• 6:50Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Jocko Willink?

  That's gotta be the thought. Um, all right. So. Welcome back. Like I said, now last podcast, obviously, we talked about Origin.

• 7:00Pete Roberts?

  Boom.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  And we talked about where it started, how it started, the trials and tribulations, to say the least, that you went through getting it to that point. But it's been a pretty, so you were on the podcast one year ago, because we were up at this Origin camp one year ago. And now you're back on it again. But it's been a big year.

• 7:21Pete Roberts?

  Been a huge year.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  Been a big year of growth for the company. How many people?

• 7:28Pete Roberts?

  We've grown by another thirty people.

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  So total, we're looking at forty plus people?

• 7:35Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, yeah. And I think this time last year, we were, yeah, right around twelve to fifteen. And we, you know, you know what is crazy is, I don't know if I told you this, this time last year, like, I don't, I don't get real stressed out. This time last year, we had the immersion camp. Right? We had the grand opening of the factory. We had just moved a sixty thousand square foot factory into our factory, like, like, two or three weeks prior, and it was still moving into. And there were some other things going on with business or whatever. And, and I, I don't know

• 8:17Pete Roberts?

  if I told you this, one night I left camp during this, during camp.

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  You did not tell me that.

• 8:22Pete Roberts?

  I left camp and went home. I was by myself. My family was still here. And I was laying in bed, and I couldn't, I couldn't get to sleep. And I just felt really weird, like, my, my body felt weird. And all of a sudden, my heart, I felt like it was beating through my chest. And I was like, what is going on? Come to find out, I had an anxiety attack. Never had it in my life. I haven't had one since. And there was more going on.

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  So what does that actually mean?

• 8:49Pete Roberts?

  I don't even know what that means. Dude, I had never.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  That sounds like some echo.

• 8:53Pete Roberts?

  What are you talking about?

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  Thirty-eight years. You're cruising super hard.

• 8:57Pete Roberts?

  Thirty-eight years old, and it was like, I don't know what brought it on. I think there was a lot of.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  So what does that actually mean? So it means your, your blood?

• 9:06Pete Roberts?

  I think your blood pressure goes up. And scientifically, I don't know. Alls I know is it was like.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  I thought you were gonna tell me heart attack.

• 9:13Pete Roberts?

  No, dude, I had, and I was like, whoa, and I just, man.

• 9:16Jocko Willink?

  So how do you know it was an anxiety attack?

• 9:18Pete Roberts?

  I told somebody what happened.

• 9:19Jocko Willink?

  And then they said that?

• 9:20Pete Roberts?

  That you had an anxiety attack. I was like, okay, I'm not having one of those again.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  That was

• 9:25Pete Roberts?

  Because we took down two elephants instead of one.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  Do you think that's the most stressed you've ever been then?

• 9:30Pete Roberts?

  Uh, no, I mean, again, I don't feel like it was, uh, no, I mean, no, not, not even close.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  So what do you think brought it on?

• 9:41Pete Roberts?

  I think it was a little bit of the unknown of what's to come.

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  Now, this isn't, now it just got interesting because you're sitting here complaining about the, well, not complaining, but you're making a statement about the unknown.

• 9:57Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Jocko Willink?

  Now imagine getting on board of a little wooden ship and sailing across the country. That's the never, there's no pictures. You don't know what this place looks like.

• 10:05Pete Roberts?

  Right, you have expectations of things.

• 10:07Jocko Willink?

  You've heard about Indians.

• 10:09Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 10:10Jocko Willink?

  With tomahawks, right? That's what you've heard about.

• 10:14Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 10:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's gotta be stressful. So that was sort of a, a point when we, when you were on last time, it was at sort of, everything was launching at one time, new factory, you had all this stuff going on and

• 10:27Pete Roberts?

  And the day after we recorded that podcast.

• 10:30Jocko Willink?

  Was what?

• 10:30Pete Roberts?

  The day after I went home and slept that night, we recorded the podcast.

• 10:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay, dang.

• 10:37Pete Roberts?

  I remember sitting in the factory that night and a friend of mine drove by late night and we're recording and all the lights were on in the factory and, and, uh, what a, it was, it was just crazy, you know, the true, the old New England church bells in the background. It was just an awesome, awesome time. And that kind of like got me to reset, like my body only calmed down at that point and I reset and good. Never had it before, never had a half after.

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'll tell you what was crazy from my perspective is when we were first linking up and we were buying the building, right? And so I'm kind of, you know, hey, cool, we're buying a building and we got this going on. And then I get up there and I go in the building and the building is, it's pretty big, you know? And I'm thinking, well, this is a big, pretty big building that we have and do we need, I'm thinking, you know, to myself, do we need this big of a building? I'm thinking to myself, well, do we get a little crazy with this building? And then I come back now, one year later, and we have too small of a building in one year. And so instead of there being four people, five people stitching at a time, everyone's stitching and there's, machines are filled, the

• 11:48Jocko Willink?

  The shipping area is completely filled with product going out. That's a lot of, that's a lot of, that's, that's like an exponential. How much more are you shipping a day now compared to a year ago?

• 12:01Pete Roberts?

  We are shipping probably 10 times as much right now and it's growing daily exponentially.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  Wow.

• 12:10Pete Roberts?

  You know, the, the thing is, is like, just to frame this, just to frame this, right? It's, it's a fallout shelter. I mean, that's what we bought was a fallout shelter. It was built during the Cold War. This thing is reinforced, like when they brought that 800 amp power in, cause we had to, we had to bring three phase power in. They had to change the transformers, cause we were sucking all the power from the town. So they, they literally, and, and that was crazy. And so I was like negotiating with the power company, Central Main Power and, you know, I get them up there and I tell them our vision, get them buy out like, cause they'll, it's a company, they're gonna negotiate a little bit.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  Otherwise we'll put up solar.

• 12:45Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. So they, they came in, they put all the new transformers on, on the, the pole, you know, and they ran it in the building. And then the electrical company, the electricians who were friends also of, of us. And they're like, okay, we gotta bore through the concrete. And they, they barely were able to bore through that concrete. I have a, I have a, what do you call it? A cylinder. They took two cylinders out of the wall. And it was like, that was so hard because you know, concrete gets harder as it ages. But it is the town's, the factory is the town's fallout shelter. I don't know if I ever told you that. When you, so when you go down the stairs, it says fallout.

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I have saw that, but I thought it was, I didn't know that was the purpose of the whole building.

• 13:31Pete Roberts?

  Originally sent, uh, originally the power company built it, but because it was built during the Cold War, it became the fallout.

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  They probably got a little tax break to put the fallout shelter.

• 13:41Pete Roberts?

  Probably.

• 13:42Jocko Willink?

  Something like that.

• 13:42Pete Roberts?

  Probably.

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  So you added 40 people. How many products? I mean, it's just.

• 13:48Pete Roberts?

  As far as products, I mean, we're. Adding monthly, you know, I mean nutrition on the nutritional side. And with our partnership, like in terms of the Jaco products, which have, you know, have been ridiculously awesome for the masses. Along with some of the new stuff we're doing and jujitsu and on the lifestyle end of things as we as we grow the the vision. And we grow and we bring our message proliferate our message to the masses. You know, we're just, we're providing people with what they want, you know? And you know what's funny is some of that providing them with what they want is this kind of innate thing like. We had Charlie Brenneman here, the Spaniard, used to fight in UFC, big UFC fighter.

• 14:31Pete Roberts?

  And he came into the factory yesterday and he walked in the back door and he like walked in 10 steps and he stopped. And he's a pretty cerebral guy, you know? I mean, you don't get to the top level in the UFC if you're not a cerebral person like that. And he looked at me and he said, hey, he said, hey, Pete, you told me there were no stupid questions. Cause that's what I always preface everything with. I said, no, no, shoot. He's like, why do I feel the way I feel? And I was like, well, what do you mean? He's like.

• 15:02Pete Roberts?

  Like a little bit shocked and confused. And I said, well, that's because.

• 15:09Pete Roberts?

  It's natural to feel that way when you haven't seen people building products with their hands in a factory environment. We've only heard about it through the television or books. Because it all has gone away in our generation. We're about the same age. You know, we didn't see it, you know, uh, maybe we're kids as it was just leaving. And he was just like, man, this is just incredible. You know, just couldn't wrap his head around it. And he was just wandering around that factory up and down like, holy cow, man, this is. And he and and once you see it, you feel it. It's a physical change, you know, it's like when you have. And and this is might be excessive, but when you have your first child and you see your child, there's like this chemical reaction.

• 15:53Pete Roberts?

  Man, when you walk into a factory where there is people working with their hands. And working together to bring this thing to life, it's it's bringing something to life in a different way, in another parallel. So it's awesome to see.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  At what point did?

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  Factory. Get a negative connotation, do you think?

• 16:14Pete Roberts?

  I have my own theories, which I'll share.

• 16:16Jocko Willink?

  Please do. Because when people go, oh, factory work, they think, oh, that's bad. You're, you're sitting there doing some menial task over and over again. That's what some people think of factory work. And I'll agree with you, and I bet you that is part of what Charlie was feeling. When he walked in there, what you think of a factory is not what a factory is, especially in our case.

• 16:36Pete Roberts?

  Right. In, in their portrait negatively, but it's, it's all education. I, and here's what, here's what happened in that letter. He said, we don't have any textiles to make apparel and clothing. Or probably leather yet, tanned leather to make shoes and accessories. Things you need for survival.

• 17:04Pete Roberts?

  So New Englanders were forced into a position. And we talk about like hands in daylight, right? They had their hands and they had daylight and they had whatever they brought for livestock to be able to build their farms, they cleared the fail, fields by hand, they cut the trees by hand. And if you've ever stumped a tree by hand, that's an absolute nightmare. One tree could take a full day to stump it, to pull the stumps and roots out of the ground, to build a field, to have the cows, to raise the cattle.

• 17:34Jocko Willink?

  Have you stumped a tree by hand?

• 17:37Pete Roberts?

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:37Jocko Willink?

  What, what's that process?

• 17:39Pete Roberts?

  You gotta dig, so to stump a tree by hand, you have to, after you cut the tree down, you dig around like all the roots and then you take an axe and you cut the roots as low as you can and you pull the stump up and the stump is massively heavy because it's, it's the, it's the wood and it's all the organics that have grown around it, it comes up with it. It's a challenge.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've never done that without a machine.

• 18:02Pete Roberts?

  Without a machine, which they didn't have.

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Pete Roberts?

  You know, and so there was this, uh, there was this necessity to live, right? And, and okay, we have to be self-sufficient. We can't rely on provisions from England. We have to become self-sufficient. So the direction and the focus of the people in, in, as a union was, was amazing. When people come together for a common cause, we know that's an amazing thing. And as immigration happened, you know, the French and the Irish and everything else, they they all came together to build these factories to harness the power of New England's rivers. And they had to. And and but what happens as after had to, now you have it.

• 18:48Pete Roberts?

  And over the generations, it's expected and you become complacent. And complacency is what tore us down because we didn't fight hard enough to keep our factories here. We just didn't. We didn't fight hard enough. Why? Because we're complacent, you know, everyone's making a great wage. And this is 150 years later, the textile mills and the spinning mills and the dye houses and the the, you know, the boot companies and the and the leather factories and the tanneries and all of those things were right around here, right around this area.

• 19:22Pete Roberts?

  But it becomes expected. And it went away, you know, and it went away in the early 2000s, late 90s. So the timeline touches us, right? But didn't have impact as it did on some of the older folks.

• 19:39Jocko Willink?

  Did we get sold a bill of good at some point that factory, like as people were trying to move factories overseas so they could save money, did we get sold a bill of goods that, hey, factory work isn't what you want to be doing?

• 19:51Pete Roberts?

  Well, what I think is that through the complacency, you know, like if you look at our grandparents, for instance, which they told us the stories. Hey, I used to go to the mill when I was eight, I'd go to the tannery, I'd pull tacks out of the hides, that was my grandfather. His mother worked in the Lowell spinning mills, right? So she was in Lowell, Massachusetts, and she worked on the spinning mills, you know, making making the um, the wool yarn or the cotton yarn to weave the textiles. She actually used to, at the at the end of the shift, she would sweep up all the excess wool, she'd go home and she'd spin it by hand and she'd make blankets and stuff with it, which we we have

• 20:36Pete Roberts?

  one in the family, which is pretty cool.

• 20:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 20:39Pete Roberts?

  So you hear these stories, but you heard it as through the eyes of hardship.

• 20:46Pete Roberts?

  So immediately you're thinking that this is a hard life. So that's how we were taught. And so the way that we were brought up more so is that you need to go to college to get an education. So you don't have the hardship. Factory work now is a totally different beast. It's not like back then, yes. Eight years old, bare feet, working. That's what happened and and. I think that the mindset, the gritty mindset. I think what what was was trying to take place was that kind of the hard work and work ethic and grit. You know, trying to be passed down to us, our our parents and then us.

• 21:30Pete Roberts?

  But what didn't happen was the experiential knowledge of it. So you just heard it. And you know how it is when you don't experiencing experience something you really don't know. And we became complacent and then the jobs left. They've just left, you know, trade opened up and they left. I mean, big business, take it away. And the the reverberation.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  By the way, that right there is, you know, when people complain about the corporate, you know, corporate making decisions.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  That's what they're complaining about is that you're not because because it's true. At a corporation, you can make a decision 100% based on bottom line. And unfortunately, those aren't usually or you can be tempted to make bad strategic decisions. And even though you might win in the short term for this quarter or next quarter or this fiscal year. In the long run, what do you end up with?

• 22:29Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. What do you end up with? And I I'm not gonna blame it on. Let's say the owners and administrators and the folks above, right?

• 22:46Pete Roberts?

  And I'm not gonna blame it on the workers.

• 22:49Pete Roberts?

  I'm gonna blame it on the detachment and to take, you know, what, what you're, what the whole thing you do with leadership, right? The culture became bad. And I'm gonna tell you why I believe this. Our, our, our third loom we bought, we, after we discovered the first two. I, uh, discovered this Italian guy. His name was Mario. And I, I just started calling people, trying to find like, there was this mill in Sanford, Maine. Huge mill, like a million square feet. And I heard it, I heard it had shut down. And I called the town and I was like, hey, I heard about this mill. Somebody said there might be some equipment in there, some old equipment, blah, blah, blah.

• 23:33Pete Roberts?

  And they're like, oh yeah, um, this guy Mario owns it. Maybe you should try calling the tax assessor. I said, okay. So I called the tax assessor. They're like, um, yeah, yeah, we, we know this person, Mario. Yep. He, uh, he shut the mill down, uh, and we have some contact information for him, but it was very cold. And I was like, okay. So he gave me the number and I called and I left a message. And I said, hey, uh, my name's Pete Roberts. Uh, I'm trying to bring textiles back to Maine and I'd like to talk to you about your mill.

• 24:17Pete Roberts?

  And he called me back and he's an old guy and he's been, he's Italian. And the Italians are the ones that make the really good looms for a long, long, long time. You know, about a hundred years, 200 years, whatever it was. And his family had been in weaving and in textiles for a hundred years. And he said to me, Pete, he said, let me tell you something in his Italian accent.

• 24:42Pete Roberts?

  He said,

• 24:44Pete Roberts?

  We didn't want to shut the doors, he said, but I did. He said, I shut the doors, I locked it up and I walked away. And every single piece of machinery is still in that mill. I said, what? I'm getting chills, I'm getting chills. Every single piece of machinery is still in that mill. He said, if you can do something about that, I'm willing to work with you. I said, open the doors for me, man. He goes, let me tell you something.

• 25:19Pete Roberts?

  When I went to the town. When they basically wanted to take advantage of me on the tax base. And I still had forty people working there. They wouldn't work with me. He said, it wasn't me. That wanted to strip it away. It was a mixture. He said, yeah, I had to shut the doors because I was forced to, they forced my hand. The people didn't want to lose their jobs, but at the same time, he said, the people. The people. Were basically putting pressure on him, right? Like they're looking up like, hey, you can pay us more, hey, you can do this, hey, you can do this. And then he said, when I went to the town and they wouldn't help us with any of this. He goes, what am I gonna do?

• 26:03Pete Roberts?

  Shut the doors and walk away. So. We have a people that's complacent. We have a town that has expect, expects what they expect and is inflexible. And you put, you put the owner in a position where he needs to react. He needs to make a decision. And his decision was shut the doors and walk away. That's what he did.

• 26:28Pete Roberts?

  You want me to tell that story about that mill?

• 26:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Pete Roberts?

  Dude, so we, we, uh, we get there. And he's like, call this guy Jim. He's at the mill, he is, he is the night watch or whatever, he's the caretaker for the property. And I met Jim and he's got this big white beard, this old gentleman and he used to make the warps that made, that wolfed the fabric. And he was very protective of everything, like very protective. And you know what's funny is History Channel, they had, they sent a crew with us for this. Uh, they were looking at doing a TV show way back and anyways, so we had this whole film crew and we, we have this, I'll have to show this to you sometime. It's crazy. So he unlocked, so it's all overgrown grass, the windows are smashed.

• 27:15Pete Roberts?

  The, the bricks are basically like falling apart. I mean, it's just deteriorated. And he opens door and walks in and the smell of years of no heat and the cold and the heat and the cold. Everything was peeled and all the floorboards were punky and popped up, nails sticking up and everything. But we walked in that mill and it was exactly set up the way he left it. I'm talking huge cotton processing machines made out of wood with needles to separate, to card the cotton, to pull the organics out. I'm talking a, I would say a football field long spinning machines to spin yarn.

• 27:58Pete Roberts?

  And then Jim, after I started talking to him about what I'm, what we're doing, cause he was just cold. He was just like.

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  What number, what number loom were you getting from him? That was number three. This is number three.

• 28:10Pete Roberts?

  Okay. And the warper. So we, uh, he, he, and then I saw like six looms on the floor and I was like, you guys have looms? He's like, let me show you something.

• 28:23Jocko Willink?

  And were they rusted? Were they broken or worn or were they in okay condition?

• 28:26Pete Roberts?

  They had not been run for 20 years, I think. So they were in okay condition because they were between floors. So the top floor was just destroyed and you know, all those bins we have in the pro shop?

• 28:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Pete Roberts?

  They came from that mill. All those canvas bins. So the, that top floor was destroyed. There was just a bird's nest and shit everywhere, right? All over everything. And then they were in the middle floors. But he's like, let me show you something. I'm like, okay. And we follow him down this staircase and I'm like, this guy's gonna like murder us or something. I'm thinking like, what is going on? We walk in and he pulls his flashlight up like this and it's like a layer of dragons. There's gotta be sixty, seventy looms in the basement of this place. And that's where we pulled the shit out.

• 29:15Jocko Willink?

  What does a loom cost right now? A brand new loom?

• 29:18Pete Roberts?

  If we were gonna go brand new, probably one twenty maybe, you know, and.

• 29:24Jocko Willink?

  What'd you pay for loom number three?

• 29:27Pete Roberts?

  Loom number three, I negotiated twenty-five hundred bucks. And, and we'll have.

• 29:34Jocko Willink?

  Are we buying the rest of those?

• 29:36Pete Roberts?

  We should. Dude, it's just to move them. It's like, they're nine thousand pounds each. Yeah, they're massive. Joe, Joe ran the show.

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  Need some more Jocko White tea on that.

• 29:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, we did. We, I told, so anyways, we negotiated a deal. I spent, it was like ten grand and we got like a few different things. All massive machines, the warper with Creole, we got a loom. In the pro shop, the, the, the back winding machine that I refurbished, that came out of there. And the most important thing we got out of that place was the punch card machine to punch the patterns to go in the looms.

• 30:17Pete Roberts?

  That's in my office. I keep that secured with lock and.

• 30:20Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's how you actually decide what, how that loom is gonna weave together the material. So it looks like dragon weave or it looks like.

• 30:29Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. So that's, that's the, that's the deal. I mean, that place was. And I'm still like trying to work with Mario to get more equipment, but yeah, it's tricky.

• 30:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so. You've been, you were kind of doing that, you've been doing that. Uh, well, obviously, once we met, you know, you're at 12 people, you're growing. You, you, obviously, I gave you a copy of Extreme Ownership. You read that. How is that, has that played a role? How has that played a role? Cause I know you've told me it's played a role. Where did you see yourself going, okay, you know what? Here's something I need to do different. And I've said this, I said this on an interview the other day. That, you know, someone was talking about how, what kind of, uh, what'd they say? Background check did I do on you before we started working together?

• 31:14Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  And is that what the, was that the, no, due diligence. What kind of due diligence? And I, I, you know, I was explaining how we spent a lot of time talking. And via Skype. And what I was really listening to and hearing was, you know, you weren't making excuses about anything. You know, you explained to me, hey, we tried to do this. I didn't know what I was doing. I had to learn that. Then I tried to do this other thing and guess what? I didn't have enough capital. I had to figure out another way. You weren't saying, you, you didn't blame anybody else for anything. I mean, and, and you know, we're, we're right now at a great point with Origin. And you weren't always at a great point. I mean, you've had, you've had to do what every bit struggling business had to do, or small business has to do. That is struggle to grow. And when I talked to you, you, you, you already had the attitude of taking ownership of everything you could.

• 31:59Jocko Willink?

  But I know in talking to you that you've also pulled a lot of stuff out and said, oh yeah, this is, this is had an impact.

• 32:05Pete Roberts?

  Oh yeah. I mean, there's tons of stuff. There's tons of stuff. You know, first of all, what Jiu Jitsu has done for me is exposed me. It, it's what it does. It exposes your weaknesses. So you get better. And that mindset, that Jiu Jitsu mindset. I like being exposed. Because

• 32:27Pete Roberts?

  our brains have changed, right? And I think that's what makes this work. Like if, if. If some, if I, if I don't see the weakness and somebody exposes it, the first thing I do is feel like a schmuck for a second, but then I'm like, okay, well, show me how I can get better. You know, and there's so many times I've like texted you late night, hey, man, can you talk? Can you help me out with this issue? Can you help me out with this problem? Uh, you know, cause leadership for me has only come through playing sports and then running business, right? I wasn't in war. I, I didn't see the worst of humanity and, and how decisions can affect some, someone living or dying.

• 33:09Pete Roberts?

  I didn't see that, you know, I, I, it's a whole nother level, you know? And knowing that you had, had and had those leadership skills that were, you know, that you conditioned to is really what it was. You know, I just knew there was another level. And so when I actually listened to Extreme Ownership for the first time,

• 33:34Pete Roberts?

  you know, I was just humbled by that, you know, by the book. The, the two things for me that really, and of course I, I went to the muster too. And I'd recommend if you're in business, any leadership position, regardless of industry,

• 33:52Pete Roberts?

  go like, it'll be the most valuable thing you do for yourself. Like,

• 33:58Pete Roberts?

  it's hard to explain, but I can tell you being there in the presence, first of all warriors, but also their stories is powerful, you know, and connecting with them on a personal level outside of the muster. That's powerful.

• 34:15Pete Roberts?

  Decentralized command changed the game for us. Man, you know, I, I didn't think I was a control freak. I just, I was, I was always like, you need to bring me a better idea. It's gotta be better than my idea, right? I will go with anybody's idea. It's gotta be better though, you know, it's gotta make more sense and I'll, I'll, I'll switch. I'll shut it down and switch immediately. But you know what I found out is I wasn't giving people an opportunity to give me their idea.

• 34:49Pete Roberts?

  They, we had, had a great culture. We have a great culture, but I wasn't giving them the opportunity to be leaders. I had kind of nurtured a

• 35:02Pete Roberts?

  Kind of, I will, I will help you decide. I'll help you, you know, you come to me and I'll help you. And once I shifted that, and I actually had a lot of our, our, you know, managers and leaders, listen to Extreme Ownership, and I'll tell you what, the ones who listened,

• 35:24Pete Roberts?

  I knew they would become leaders, and the ones who gave me slack about it, I knew there's another path for them.

• 35:33Pete Roberts?

  Because you, you have to humble yourself, you know, to, to listen, and then not only listen, but apply it, so. And then I've gotten a little off course with the decentralized command, too. I've given a little too much and, you know, which is a whole nother thing, right? So, but then I've had it come at me like,

• 35:55Pete Roberts?

  people make decisions but not be the right decisions, you know, and have to bite my tongue about it. At the same time,

• 36:02Pete Roberts?

  I've had the, the leadership skewed, you know, like decentralized command can be skewed from the other side. Well, I, this person needs to do this, or sometimes like, you know, sometimes you just need to make a decision. Well, you can take that and you can say, well, I'm just gonna make a decision every time. No, that's not what we're talking about here, you know, so decentralized command for us changed the game.

• 36:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, you wouldn't be able to do, you would not be able to do anything that you're doing right now if you were trying to control everything the way, the way you were a year and a half, two years ago. Impossible.

• 36:36Pete Roberts?

  Exactly, and the growth, and I would say that the, the, the transition between growth phases, which is a lot of transition, has been so smooth because we're all on the same page. You know, we're all on the same page. And winning at all costs, which is a big one for me, because that's, that's where you gotta completely drop your ego. We've had some conversations about that.

• 37:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, and interestingly, I talked about winning at all costs at the muster. I haven't really, uh, exposed it to everyone, but you know, it's the basic concept is.

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  That when we say winning at all costs, we think of that from an attitude of being completely aggressive, moving forward, never stopping, no matter what happens, I'm going to execute the plan that I came up with. And that sounds good and it gets everyone all fired up. But the reality is, and as a matter of fact, you and I were just talking about this. Somebody here at camp said, basically,

• 37:39Jocko Willink?

  is it okay to quit? I feel like I don't want to quit, but I've got something going on. Basically, a guy, great guy, hard worker, has a business, been running his business. It's his, it was his, his goal was to get this business up and running, a very hard business, a very labor intensive business, a very fickle business, agriculture. And he's been grinding. He was at camp last year. I talked to him a lot last year. Asked me a lot of questions about, you know, leadership and ownership and business and all that. Comes back this year and, you know, he came to me this morning.

• 38:20Jocko Willink?

  And really, I think this, and I told him this, this, this conversation that we had made it feel like it was worthwhile for me to come to camp because he said to me, you know, I feel like, is it ever okay to quit? I know I'm not supposed to, you know, he was in the Marine Corps, like, we don't quit. And I said, have you listened to, I've listened to all the podcasts and he goes, yeah. And I go, because I answered this question, I answered this question. The question is, is it ever okay to quit? And so you and I just had this conversation. And you said,

• 38:53Pete Roberts?

  Knee jerk reactions.

• 38:54Jocko Willink?

  You read your, knee jerk reactions, no, you can never quit. And you know, I come from the SEAL teams where our motto is actually never quit. That's actually our, one of our mantras. And then I said, okay, Pete, if you came up with a plan that was driving our business into the ground, but you were just never going to quit, would that be good? No. You're like, no, okay, there you go. This is the dichotomy. It doesn't work. Trickster. Yeah, a little trickster. I'm a little trickster. So, so that's the problem. If you have something that is, that is like that, that whether it's, hey, I want you to charge this machine gun nest, or whether it's, um, hey, I want you to continue to execute

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  this plan, or whether it's, hey, I want you to even something like this, hey, uh, you should keep training hard, right? Guess what? My knee's a little bit tweaked. Don't quit. Well, now you blow your knee out. Right. So, the fact of the matter is, sometimes you gotta look at, so then I said, okay, what is your long-term strategic goal? Like your actual strategic goal? Because his goal was, the goal of his was not to build that business. The goal of his was to be able to take care of his family and be around his family and do something with his family that he could carry on as a legacy. That was his goal. Wasn't working out. The, the bit, the business part of it wasn't working out. I don't know what he's gonna do, but I can tell you, I saw him an hour later, and he had a big smile on his face.

• 40:22Jocko Willink?

  And I said, you feel lighter, don't you? And he goes, yes, I do feel lighter. That, thank you. But the point is, not that he's necessarily gonna stop, but he's gonna maybe shift his direction a little bit, or he's gonna attack it with a different perspective. He's gonna do something different. He realized, man, we talk about this in Jiu-Jitsu all the time. Yeah. I just got done teaching the white belts. I'm like, the knee shield, you're not gonna go through it. You can't go through it. You cannot go, it's humanly impossible. You cannot go through the knee shield. You have to go around it, you have to go under it, you have to back away from it, you gotta do something else. So, if I say, go through that knee shield, and you just go forward, forward, forward, and you never quit, guess how long you're gonna be there? Forever. Cause you can't physically move your, yeah, you can't do it.

• 41:08Jocko Willink?

  So this idea of like never quitting, it's something that we have to be careful about. We have to be careful that what we're not quitting is something strategic. And we have to continually check that that strategy, that strategic goal that we're moving towards is actually something that we want. I had this conversation with Leif several years ago about Echelon Front. And he was, he was like, oh, you know, we got to expand. And I said, yeah, absolutely. We got to expand. And we were talking about how we were going to do it. And we started looking at like how many gigs and how many numbers and how many things and how many events and how many companies we're going to be in. And I said, let me ask you this. Why do we want to expand in that manner? Is that really what we want is to expand in that way?

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  And we thought about it and it's like, no, actually we want to do something a lot smarter than that. So we quit. Basically.

• 42:00Pete Roberts?

  You adapted.

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  We adapted, but we did, we, we, we adapted, but I mean, to look at it in the blunt language of like, oh, we quit this direction.

• 42:08Pete Roberts?

  But that's a finality too.

• 42:09Jocko Willink?

  It is the, we didn't quit, we didn't quit the strategic goal of growing, of spreading the word, of helping people learn, of bringing leaders up to their, their potential. That's what the goal is. The goal isn't, hey, we want to have X amount of clients. We would rather have the clients that really adopt what we say, that really absorb what we say, that we can really have an impact on. That's what we're looking to do. So yeah, those kinds of things are, are important to consider. And I know, I know that's some of the conversations that we've had about winning at all costs. So winning at all costs means sometimes you do things that on the surface, they don't seem like winning moves.

• 42:50Pete Roberts?

  I know. And you know, you know, what's crazy is my wife read Extreme Ownership. She devoured it.

• 42:58Jocko Willink?

  But watch out now, boy.

• 43:01Pete Roberts?

  You know, and sometime, and you know, 99% of the time she applies it. But sometimes she'll say to me, I just don't feel like playing your game today. You ever heard that?

• 43:15Jocko Willink?

  Not from my wife, no.

• 43:16Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, well, I mean, I work with my wife. We have a great working relationship.

• 43:19Jocko Willink?

  And actually, that's something that we should talk about because you do have a great working relationship with your wife. I hear you on the phone.

• 43:25Pete Roberts?

  And and that is basically her saying like, I don't know what she's trying to say, but I do what you do in extreme ownership. I'll do it.

• 43:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Pete Roberts?

  With some of the toughest, some of the toughest conversations will be like, it's six o'clock or seven o'clock and she's still working to to make sure we win at all costs. She's actually physically shipping product with the rest of the team. And she'll work till probably 10 to do that on occasion. And I'll walk out and I'll be like, how's it going? And she'll be like, good. And I'll be like, I haven't trained this week. I was thinking about going to train. And then she'll give me the look. That's not me winning at all costs. And it's kind of like one of those things you got to balance like, what's the most important thing here to make happen?

• 44:20Pete Roberts?

  But at the same time, she, when she's in the game, she'll be like, I know you need that, so you do, I will handle this. And then it's kind of like you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

• 44:33Jocko Willink?

  In the military, it's called a mutually supporting relationship.

• 44:36Pete Roberts?

  Mutually supporting relationship.

• 44:38Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna take care of me this time and tomorrow I got you.

• 44:42Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Jocko Willink?

  You know, when you're all sore from you trained last night, guess what? You can get in here and stay late night and let me go do something relaxing.

• 44:48Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. But but you know, there's occasions where like, winning at all costs is like,

• 44:57Pete Roberts?

  it really is. Sometimes you're just like thinking like, oh, man, I have to, I've got to freaking do this, bro. I gotta, I got it. And it's like, I'll go in my office and I'll sit down and I'll like put my hands on the desk and I'll just like put my head down and close my eyes and be like. Reset, go, and then just go do it. Like just move.

• 45:16Jocko Willink?

  I had this conversation with another camper up here that was like, you know, I love extreme ownership, but um, one of my friends ha- has had trouble with it. And I said, oh, what type of trouble have they had with extreme ownership? Well, they're trying, he's trying to get his team to take ownership and they're not taking ownership.

• 45:38Jocko Willink?

  And I said, okay, more, expand. And, and basically it's like, oh, the team messed something up. And he's like, you guys got to take ownership with it and fix it. And that in your mind, you're thinking, oh, I'm going to get them to take ownership. That's the problem.

• 45:51Pete Roberts?

  That's the problem.

• 45:52Jocko Willink?

  That's the problem. The real, just so everybody knows.

• 45:55Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  The real thing that you do is you say, oh, I see that you guys failed on the project. I obviously let you down. I obviously didn't give you clear enough guidance. I didn't explain it to you well enough. I didn't give you the resources that you need. I didn't, and you don't say this part, I didn't micromanage you enough.

• 46:12Pete Roberts?

  Right, exactly.

• 46:14Jocko Willink?

  Cause when you start saying, okay, I'm going to come in, I'm going to make sure we get that done. Hey, you know what? We only, I only met with you three times over three weeks during that project. That's my fault. Now we're going to meet every day because I want to make sure that we're tracking.

• 46:26Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Jocko Willink?

  And if you do that, you can will stuff to happen. I mean, you can make things happen through force of will. And so in that situation, you get down there, you're going to meet every day, you're going to check at the end of the day. You're going to make sure that we're making progress on the project that we're supposed to. And your team now goes, oh damn, we don't want this. Bro, we got this. Back off. And then you know what they just did? They took ownership.

• 46:46Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. You know what I have to be very careful of though, is because of the fragility of human resources, which are also our, in our culture, it's our family too, is saying the word failure, you know, and, and.

• 47:04Pete Roberts?

  I think the thing is, and where the transition happens is when you understand that, and what I'm trying to get like Amanda to understand is that extreme ownership is, it's not a game. It's actually a way of thinking and you really have to believe that. So when you're saying, "Hey, I gave you too much. I gave you, I gave you so much. There's absolutely no way you could handle that. I failed you by asking you to do that."

• 47:34Pete Roberts?

  The words coming out of your mouth, you have to believe. A lot of people will say it, but they don't believe it innately. They don't believe it.

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  Totally.

• 47:41Pete Roberts?

  And that is, that is the ego and that is actually getting it. And you have to take yourself and you have to put yourself in their shoes. And if you can't detach and do that, then you are playing a game.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Pete Roberts?

  You're playing a game and it's not a game.

• 47:57Jocko Willink?

  It's not a game. Yeah. And I've said this one before where, where someone says, you know, when I get in front of my team and I say, "Hey guys, this was my fault. This happens." And then someone on the team goes, "Yeah, it was your fault."

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  And you know, when I ask, I'll ask groups, I'll ask companies that. I say, "What do you say to that?" And people get all like, they get confused. They say, "Well, you should, you should tell them about what the mistakes that they made so they can see." And it's like, no. What you actually say is, when some, when you say, "Hey, this was my fault," and they say, "Yeah, it is your fault." And you say, "I know. That's what I just said. It is absolutely my fault. Here's the mistakes that I made. Here's what I'm going to do to fix them. So we do better next time."

• 48:33Pete Roberts?

  I usually just say, "I won't let you down again.

• 48:36Pete Roberts?

  I'll make sure this doesn't happen."

• 48:38Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 48:39Pete Roberts?

  I was down there fixing a loom the other day.

• 48:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:41Pete Roberts?

  Did I tell you about that?

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 48:43Pete Roberts?

  Our loom tech, you know how you asked about when we first started working together, you're like, "Well, bro, what if, what if something happens to one of these old timers that helps you with the machinery?" And I was like, "We find a way."

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  How many moving parts are on a loom?

• 48:58Pete Roberts?

  Uh, there's got to be 10,000 parts.

• 49:00Jocko Willink?

  It looks like the most insane contraption that looks like when you look at one and you see it moving, you, you think to yourself, "There's no way that this works."

• 49:12Jocko Willink?

  There's millions of little like needles. What are they? Little hooks or something?

• 49:15Pete Roberts?

  Little hooks and yarns and it's a little.

• 49:19Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy.

• 49:20Pete Roberts?

  We were our, so Lenny, our, our loom guy who got us set up with everything and refurbished everything. And when I say, hey, we bought a loom for 2,500 bucks. I mean, like we, we got a frame for 20. It's like getting a car frame and now we're going to build a car. So, you know, it, it costs money to get these things back up and going. And most importantly, knowledge, because we have to have all the parts machined from scratch that they don't make anymore. And then you spend 10 grand on parts that you had machined and they don't work. And that's why loom number three is still down.

• 49:53Pete Roberts?

  Which I'm failing.

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  It was such a great story.

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  Still doesn't work.

• 50:00Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, we, we, we actually, uh, on my podcast, we just talked about if we made the right decision. You'll have to listen to that. Did we make the right decision? Or should we have gone and gotten a note and spent a quarter million dollars on new looms and waited the six months for the build out to get the looms? And so anyways, Lenny got sick. And he's the old timer. He used to work in the Bates Mill to weave, you know, the huge mill. He was the one. He got sick and I could tell that my team was, let's say, failing.

• 50:36Pete Roberts?

  And that was one of those times recently. That's about a month ago where I sat in my seat and I just kind of was like,

• 50:43Pete Roberts?

  this isn't working and it's not going to work if you don't drag your ass downstairs into the bunker, into the fallout shelter, because that's where these things are, into the dragon's lair and fix it. And show them there is a way to fix it. Go hands on. And so we went down there and we started stripping things apart, completely apart. And figuring it out and after a solid seven to 10 days, not hours, seven to 10 days, we got it back up and running. And you know what that did to that team, that 21 year old?

• 51:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I actually know what it did. Go ahead.

• 51:28Pete Roberts?

  No, you tell me.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, people ask me all the time, what can we do to make our team tighter? And I say, if you want your team to be tighter, if you want to have better morale, do hard things together. Do hard things together. It raises everyone's confidence. It brings everyone together on the team. It makes you feel like you got over something. A lot of companies that I work with now are companies that survived the economic downturn and they talk about it like they went to war. And they survived and now we're tight and we're bros and nothing's ever gonna tear us apart.

• 51:58Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, I'm getting the chills when you're thinking about that. That recession was war on business.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the uh, the military units, what makes a military unit have morale? Well, you put them through boot camp and they go through hard things together. And then you take a special operations unit, you put them through tougher training. And it makes them even tighter. And then when you take a, a unit, a conventional force unit or a spec ops unit and you put them into combat,

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  they're gonna get even tighter. And the harder the combat, the tighter they get. So you and your crew spending seven days, 12 hour days, trying to figure out this significant problem and overcoming it. It brings you, it brings us tighter together. And like your 21 year old kid that's learning how to do this. I don't know why I'm calling him a kid. He's a man with a job making stuff happen. He feels, alright, I've got value. I've got confidence. I can, this machine, this machine doesn't run me. I run this machine.

• 53:02Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. And you know what's funny is when, like, there's a, people are looking, it's the truth. People are looking for like, what's the, how are we gonna solve this? And I have this rule. It's, it's basically, ask me once, ask me twice, ask me a third time, I'm doing something wrong.

• 53:22Pete Roberts?

  And what had happened with the loom, because I knew what a nightmare it was going to be is I decentralized from it too much. So they were in my office over the course of the first two to three days, it might have even been a week, at least a dozen times.

• 53:41Jocko Willink?

  Got it. So your red flag for you need to, you're too far detached from something is ask once, you're not too far detached, it's just, just an issue. Ask twice.

• 53:50Pete Roberts?

  Details, I left the details out.

• 53:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay, here's a little bit more. Third time, gotta get in the weeds.

• 53:54Pete Roberts?

  I'm going. Yep.

• 53:54Jocko Willink?

  Gotta make something happen.

• 53:55Pete Roberts?

  And that's just my own, and I think that that helps, like, just helps.

• 53:59Jocko Willink?

  For sure, for sure. Somebody, if I'm in a, in a combat situation, someone calls me up and say, hey, Jocko, we got movers over there? And I'm like, uh, no, we're good. They call me again. Hey, I think I see something. Uh, no, there's nothing being tracked. Hey, we got some situation down here. Guess what? I'm gonna go find out what's going on.

• 54:15Pete Roberts?

  And you know what the other thing is, is like what, to that end is, we, we were sitting in the golf cart the other day, we, and I was on the phone with Jill, and she called me, and we're at camp right now, at the immersion, Origin Immersion Camp. And she, she called me, and she's like, hey, the cover stitch waistbanding machine is down for, you know, our, our elastic waistband. And I said, okay, did you call Bill? And she's like, yes, but he can't come in. I said, let me call him. She said, okay, call him. Bill, can you come in? I can't come in till one. I said, good enough, but you can be there today? He said, yes. I called Jill, I said, hey, I need you to

• 54:54Pete Roberts?

  ask if Maggie, which is one of our stitches, can stay late. So that Bill's gonna come in, fix the machine, so that she can get production done. What does that do to Jill? Let me dig a little deeper into that machine. So when we showed up at the factory the other day, everything was back up and going without Bill. So at the same time, that, that flank, and, and I've learned a lot about flanking, I would have driven over there. I would have left the session. But showing her that somebody else is gonna be, have to be put out. I'm gonna be put out, Bill's gonna be a little put out, Maggie's gonna be put out because she has to work late. So there's three people that are willing and ready, and there's one that probably

• 55:36Pete Roberts?

  could just dig a little bit deeper to see what the problem is and come to find out, she fixed it. Boom. And.

• 55:42Jocko Willink?

  Jill getting it done.

• 55:43Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, so is is, you know, it's just and and she and I'm sure and I haven't talked to her yet because I haven't seen her since then, but I'm sure she thought about that and learned from it because she's listened to Extreme Ownership and she can't wait for the next book, The Cult of Leadership, but she's listened and read and she listens to your podcast and everybody in the factory listens to the podcast. We've got Cindy up in shipping who's like, she's got it on screech, you know, you walk by like, hey, she's like, what? I'm listening to Jaco. And I'm like, okay, you keep rocking up there, girl. So

• 56:14Jocko Willink?

  I know I swag by there the other day and she's like, look at my setup and she's got like four YouTube tabs open. Jocko podcast, Jocko podcast, Jocko podcast. She's not listening to four at once, but she might start doing that. She's getting after it big time.

• 56:29Pete Roberts?

  So in a lot of the staff listens to the podcast and I get a lot of questions from them about because leadership is a skill that is it's it's acquired, you know, through practice.

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 56:46Pete Roberts?

  You know, people, I used to believe, I don't know if I've told you, I used to believe that you were born leader. You ever heard that?

• 56:52Jocko Willink?

  I have, and I've discussed this before. There is, you are born with some leadership qualities. Some of them are good, some of them are bad. You can improve.

• 57:03Pete Roberts?

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  And the more you pay attention to it, the more you will improve. There's only one person that can't improve their leadership and that's the person who lacks humility.

• 57:11Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 57:11Jocko Willink?

  If they lack humility, they're not going to get any better because they're not doing anything wrong. In their mind, they're not doing anything wrong.

• 57:17Pete Roberts?

  You know what the hardest thing though is at the factory is we have a lot of different walks of life of folks from different walks of life.

• 57:28Pete Roberts?

  But this is old New England. It's not quite the New England we're talking about, but there's a lot of parallels because of the recession and then the lack of jobs and the lack of factories. So for the folks who didn't go to college, and I don't even think, I'm gonna say right out, like, I haven't said to my kids, which college are you going to? I've asked them many times, what would you like to do? But I'm not one of those parents who's like, which college are you going to? Where do you know? And I think that's okay, too. I'm not saying it's not. I'm just, I've seen both ends of the spectrum from my own experience and I don't want to pressure them to go into the trades. There's great money, you know, and all these different opportunities, especially with the resurgence of manufacturing.

• 58:13Pete Roberts?

  There's gonna be so many opportunities. But these people from the different walks of life, sometimes they are finding their value in life by doing the work they're doing. And what I found is something I didn't know existed and discovered is that they, they make the product together as a community. And that product goes to the consumer and in the past that ended. Those two things, there was one and there was the other. Now, the person who puts their hands on it on this end and the person who puts their hand on it on the other end have a relationship because of new media, because of social media.

• 58:56Pete Roberts?

  And so they don't just get fulfillment by making the product. They also get fulfillment by seeing that product being used and being appreciated. And with extreme ownership, when this person here on this end, the worker, the worker, they're finding, they find their, their being in it. They find so much value. It's like, it's a powerful thing. I have to be very careful in my own leadership ways not to take that away from them. And so that approach has got to be perfect per person. So I have to shift the way I talk to people.

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  Modulate.

• 59:34Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, I gotta, gotta shift. I will, I can have like 25 conversations and I would have it 25 different ways depending on who the person is.

• 59:44Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. And you learn that by practice.

• 59:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So, speaking of too much ownership and the dichotomy of extreme ownership, because there is one. Uh, you got, I got you one of the copies of the, uh, the new book, Dichotomy of Leadership.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  Where'd that fall out in your brain?

• 1:00:07Pete Roberts?

  Well, I sat down. I'm not a big reader and because it was an audio book, I got the paper copy. I was like, okay, so I sat down. Uh, on a dock, uh, on, uh, at our little cabin on the lake. And I sat down and everybody was around me and I was just in it and it sucked me in. And I've never had a book suck me in.

• 1:00:32Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:00:32Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. So it's the first one I ever got sucked into. And all of a sudden I looked up and the sun was going down behind the mountains and everybody was gone.

• 1:00:42Pete Roberts?

  I was like, what happened? And you know, it's, it's one of, I'm going to tell you like extreme ownership. Everybody needs to read or listen to. Dichotomy of Leadership is actually going to correct. Your brain. Like you think you know, because you read that book. Now it's time for us to tweak what you're thinking. So. It's powerful and.

• 1:01:11Pete Roberts?

  I think for anybody like my little sister and my brother in law, they're ed techs and they're, it's, they're in a whole different game. You know, they're working with children like it's just so valuable. It's life lessons.

• 1:01:24Jocko Willink?

  You know, something I realized, so as Leif and I have been talking about why we wrote the book, the dichotomy of leadership, why we picked that topic? And what we've been saying is most of the questions that we would get asked would be about the dichotomy of leadership. That's completely true. But I'll tell you on top of that, more important, most of the answers that I give are that there's a dichotomy in leadership and you need to be balanced. That is what you, even today I got asked at camp, hey, Jaco, I'm a white belt, but I want to be default aggressive. But I also hear you tell me to relax all the time. Which one is it? What do you want me to do? Should I be default aggressive and get after it?

• 1:02:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Jocko Willink?

  Or you you tell me relax and I actually, you know, I say relax harder, right? You gotta relax harder. Which one do you want me to do? And I said, well, luckily and Leif's there too. I'm like, luckily, for this very reason, Leif and I just wrote a book called The Dichotomy of Leadership. And there's a dichotomy with aggression. Even though I say default aggressive and I say you got, that's gotta be your mindset. That's gotta be your default mode is you're gonna be aggressive and you're gonna go get after it. And there's a chapter in the book, you, that doesn't mean that you run to your death.

• 1:02:34Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  You have to balance that with caution, with with energy conservation, with not wasting movement on the mat, with not wasting capital in business, without burning bridges. Like, all those things, you have to be balanced. And that's why I think, like, that's a great way of putting it. It's gonna, it's gonna recalibrate and fix your brain.

• 1:02:58Pete Roberts?

  Yes, yes. I've had a lot of these conversations with Be Little, you know?

• 1:03:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:03:02Pete Roberts?

  Because something, because he's, he's a different beast than I am. I'm pretty, I'm pretty passive, like, like, do your job, do it right. Like, I'll help anywhere I can. And that's just in general, right? Like, I'm there, like, I'm there, I'm always on, contact me anytime of day. And so, and so Be Little's in a, in a leadership position, sometimes like, Jaco says. Do you ever get that? Jaco says.

• 1:03:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, oh, yeah.

• 1:03:28Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, so the Jaco says thing in, you know, Jaco says default aggressive. Jaco says this. And the idea isn't that in your brain, you're thinking Jaco says. The, the idea is that you, you, you rewire your brain so that innately you're saying something and not thinking about what Jaco would say, you know? You wanna make it your own. And that's a real ownership, and we were talking about a little, a little bit ago. Real ownership is that you're not just saying it, but you're understanding what you're saying and why you're saying it. And the words are coming not as a game, but as truth, because that's what you believe.

• 1:04:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Pete Roberts?

  And that, I think, takes a long time for people.

• 1:04:10Jocko Willink?

  I thought where you're going with the Jaco says is when, when the subordinate uses your name to make something happen, right?

• 1:04:20Pete Roberts?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:04:21Jocko Willink?

  Hey, well, hey, Jaco said, this is where we're gonna do things. And it's like, okay, well, that's not, if, why do you need to say that? That's the same as saying I outrank you. That's the same as saying, look, I outrank you. And so we're gonna do it. Hey, Jaco said that's what he wants. It doesn't make any sense. Jaco said that's what he wants. Like, you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't use your boss's name as your authority. If what your boss has told you to make happen doesn't make sense, and you can't explain why it makes sense, you need to go back to your boss and say, hey, boss, I'm having some trouble here. Can you explain to me why we're doing it this way so I can explain that down the chain of command of the troops, so they know what's going on in the field?

• 1:04:58Pete Roberts?

  And you know what else is real important and valuable that I think I took away this year is like the 70 30, the 80 20, the 90 10.

• 1:05:11Pete Roberts?

  If, if, if there's a decision that needs to be made and someone else is 70% there and you're the leader and in your mind, you're 90% there, what do you do?

• 1:05:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep. All day long.

• 1:05:30Pete Roberts?

  And that has been a hard lesson for me. But I'm getting it. Did I, did I tell you about the fabric the other day?

• 1:05:37Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:05:39Pete Roberts?

  I went down Friday because I was like, hey, we gotta cut the factory. We got, you know, 400 people coming to the factory from all over the world. I want this place to look tight. And I walked down the spiral staircase into the bunker and we have the dumpster, the daily dump, right? And in the dumpster is these fabric rolls. And there's like, you know, 10 or 20 yards on each one. And John was there. He's overseeing and he was our first employee and he knows the process. He knows the factory. He knows everything. And he's overseeing everything. And I, I told Ryan Mickler this the other day. I put my hand on the fabric and I had this attachment to it.

• 1:06:22Pete Roberts?

  And I was like, I was like petting it. And I was like, okay, what am I doing? What am I doing? And I look up and I go, John, I said, why is this fabric in the dumpster? It was the first fabric we made. That's why I have an attachment to it. He's like, it had to go. And I was like,

• 1:06:42Pete Roberts?

  Wiping the tear from my eye. I'm like, how do I handle this situation? I'm thinking, why didn't he cut off a yard or like, like, why is it in the dumpster? And I didn't want to pull it out of the dumpster because I didn't want to overrule what he, his decision he had made. He said, Pete, he said, you know, how many times we've cut that by accident because it's a white? And how much time we've wasted doing that and moving it around every time we need to get something? I said, yes.

• 1:07:17Pete Roberts?

  And he's like, I, so I threw it away and I go, okay, as I kind of like stroked my hand along the dumpster and kept walking into the factory.

• 1:07:27Pete Roberts?

  It was a 50 50. It wasn't a 70, 30, 80, 20. It was a 50 50. I wanted to go back down that night and pull it all out of the dumpster before the truck came in the morning. I didn't, I just left it. And you know what? It felt great. Why? Cause we don't need it. We don't need it. He's right. We don't freaking need that fabric. You know, if I wanted to weave fabric like that, we have the knowledge base. We can weave fabric like that. Doesn't matter. Right? What does it matter? Cause it's, I have this emotional attachment to it. Cause it was the first fabric we wove. What, whatever? It's gone. I'm good. Move on. Had to let it make the decision.

• 1:08:04Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's a rough one that remind.

• 1:08:06Pete Roberts?

  That's a rough one. That's like your surfboard.

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  I've talked about this. I've got a lot of T-shirts. For whatever reason, I got the kind of issue with T-shirts. Cause I have like from jujitsu tournaments that I was in in 1996.

• 1:08:19Pete Roberts?

  You gotta keep those.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  And 1997 and 1999 and, and rock concerts that I went to. And just cool, whatever T-shirts that I got along the way. And my wife.

• 1:08:32Pete Roberts?

  Oh, I've got one for you.

• 1:08:33Jocko Willink?

  John, she wants to throw those right in the dumpster.

• 1:08:36Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Jocko Willink?

  No, they're in the drawer. But just so everybody knows, just so everybody knows, before you send me this recommendation, because I know on social media, a lot of people hit me up last time saying, hey, you can get quilts made with your old t-shirts.

• 1:08:48Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Jocko Willink?

  So I know that. And if it comes down to it.

• 1:08:51Pete Roberts?

  We've got a factory full of workers who can make you quilts.

• 1:08:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:08:55Pete Roberts?

  They would love to.

• 1:08:55Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:08:56Pete Roberts?

  Oh, they would all be like, we're making Jaco a quail.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Pete Roberts?

  I'd actually shut down the factory for a day. I literally would for an exercise, just like a group exercise. Send them over, dude. We'll make it happen. I went in on that big time. How many t-shirts do you have? Planny. Oh. Planny. Yeah. Yeah. I had, I had, I had a shirt. I had a sweatshirt. I wore it every day for ten years.

• 1:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Pete Roberts?

  It was yellow.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I know.

• 1:09:22Pete Roberts?

  My wife called it Big Bird. She threw out Big Bird. I'm emotionally scarred from it.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I had a pair of shorts. I had a pair of like crappy, real thin cotton.

• 1:09:35Pete Roberts?

  Cotton?

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Pete Roberts?

  Real thin cotton.

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Pete Roberts?

  Cotton.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  They were the most comfortable shorts ever. And I'd wear them around the house on like a Saturday, you know, just cruising. And maybe this was the end of my cruising career. My wife just threw them away. Just threw them away. No reason. Just a ruthless woman.

• 1:09:54Pete Roberts?

  Devastated. So that, that actually explains a lot because we're, we're so on the same page. It's kind of scary when it comes to like making durable goods and making all the new gear we're, we're going to be launching next year. Is that, and you know what somebody said to me recently is people are in life, their, their attention is being pulled and it's, it's everywhere. Your mind is everywhere. The last thing you want to do is be uncomfortable.

• 1:10:20Pete Roberts?

  That's the last thing you want. You can be uncomfortable in life with everything you're doing. But when we're sitting here, I'm sitting here in some new grappling shorts because they're, I looked in my suitcase. I dug through everything. I was like, what was it? What am I going to be comfortable in? It's these freaking grappling shorts and this t-shirt. I'm comfortable.

• 1:10:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Pete Roberts?

  You know, and. I think that's valuable. I think it's important or else they wouldn't have been talking about it in the 1600s. We don't have textiles or boots to make the apparel we need to be able to work, be comfortable and work.

• 1:10:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, and I actually, call me an idiot, but I was more interested in that piece just from the hardships. And as I was reading it, I was like, he's talking about, about yards of cloth and apparel that I, I, I, I feel like a brilliant move for talking about that. It was just like kind of random.

• 1:11:11Pete Roberts?

  Really? That's pretty good.

• 1:11:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not bad. Um, you know, as we talk about leadership a lot, always. And we talk, but what's interesting, I always talk about leadership and people will sometimes ask the kind of typical question of, what's the difference between leadership and management? Or do you think leaders and managers are the same thing? And I always say, hey, look, you lead people and you manage money and you manage timelines and you manage process. You are actively involved on a daily basis in doing both, in doing both, in both leading people and managing the process. So you've done not just growth and leadership this year, but also in, in process and management.

• 1:11:54Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. And I'm not the best, you know, I mean, we have a great team of people that help like,

• 1:12:04Pete Roberts?

  I'm all over the place when it comes to that as far as I enjoy it. But at the same time, I need to be kept in check. Like you can spend too much time in one area and not in the other area. But as far as the process and the team, for me, they're one in the same. If you build the team, then you'll get the process together because you're all moving the same direction. It's like dra- it's like drafting, you know?

• 1:12:35Jocko Willink?

  Bicycle.

• 1:12:35Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. You know, you're going to draft. It's the same thing. One, one person's out front and they're kind of doing this. And you know what? We're not catching any wind behind them and we're just able to coast and move behind them and make our changes, those little micro changes we need to make as we flow. And when you get a whole line of cars like that, you're all just flowing. And that's what it's like in the factory. So it's not me. You know, I mean, I'm taking your leadership techniques and, and you know, these, uh, these, this way of thinking is what it is. It's a way of thinking. And I'm just kind of filtering it down the chain and we've got good people and together we make it happen. So I may have started it, but it's not me, it's everyone.

• 1:13:13Jocko Willink?

  So for the process, the process then is decentralized. You've decentralized the way that you create the process.

• 1:13:20Pete Roberts?

  Totally. And you know how, exactly. And it's jujitsu and it's extreme ownership and it's everything. It's a beautiful thing and you're able to scale at such a rate when you just take, when you detach your emotion and you decentralize command and you really believe in it and understand winning at all costs. That's the trifecta.

• 1:13:45Pete Roberts?

  And that's what happened. So we have this one employee Jen and she runs the pants line and she's been doing such a good job with the game, the way, that I said to her, I had a conversation with her, hey, listen, I think you got this. She's like, what? I said, setting up the new lines. You get the process. You get, you're going to develop the process because you understand what needs to take place because you're bought, you've got total buy-in, you know, and she, and she's just not buying into, she's buying, she's

• 1:14:24Pete Roberts?

  buying into it as, as, I don't know how to freaking explain it. And it sounds kind of weird, but it's total belief.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  No, that's not weird.

• 1:14:36Pete Roberts?

  You know, it's belief in the, in the, in it. And when you really believe in it and you're not going home and saying, yeah, Pete wants me to listen to Jocko podcast or Pete wants me to read this book or Pete asked me to do this. When you, when you're going home and you're saying to your significant other, hey, you know what? I was asked to do this and I did it and it worked and it's changing my life, not just at work, it's actually changing my life here and I want to do this better in life.

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's powerful. I look at the difference between someone that says, oh, this is what I have to do at work and this is what I am doing at work.

• 1:15:13Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:14Jocko Willink?

  Cause when they say that, that's inherent in that statement is they own it. They own it.

• 1:15:19Pete Roberts?

  Yep.

• 1:15:19Jocko Willink?

  And when you get people that own it, it's theirs.

• 1:15:22Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Jocko Willink?

  And they're going to make it right.

• 1:15:24Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 1:15:26Jocko Willink?

  All right. So. You've accomplished a lot with this.

• 1:15:31Pete Roberts?

  We have.

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it started with you.

• 1:15:36Jocko Willink?

  You, you are, you have to be driven by ego, just like all of us are. You know, to, to have this vision and think and believe that you can take twenty year old Lou and get that thing up and running and make clothes with it. That's freaking crazy. But you also do a great job of putting that ego in check. And I'm wondering how,

• 1:15:59Jocko Willink?

  how do you discriminate between what's positive ego and what's good? And what's negative ego and what's bad? And to, to give a little bit of context with a military, with tasking a bruiser, right?

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  I want every one of those guys to believe that we are the best task unit in the history of the world. That's who we are. And at the same time, the dichotomy is, I want them to think, oh, we need to do better. We're not good enough. We need to keep training. We can't cut any corners. And that's basically what you have to do. I have to do as individuals. I know I'm always trying to do that. What do you see from your perspective? How do you know when it's your positive ego that's going to help drive things in a positive way? Versus your, your negative ego that's going to negatively impact decisions that you're supposed to make? Not based on what's the best for the company or best for the future or best for long term,

• 1:16:56Jocko Willink?

  but best thing for your little psycho ego that wants to just eat all these cupcakes?

• 1:17:06Pete Roberts?

  So I think, I think to succeed in life, you have to have a,

• 1:17:13Pete Roberts?

  a confidence, an ego, a swagger. And I like swagger. But you also have to be a bit naive and ego makes you naive is really what it is. And I'll give you a good example. Uh, I have this, my buddy, Dustin Ireland. And he's an A-10 pilot and he's like the top A-10 pilot in the world, you know? He taught at Red Flag. He's worked for the Joint Chiefs now and he's making his way up. Who knows where he'll end up? Well, we're kids. We used to do everything together, but we were so competitive. And I had an ego, he had a little bit of an ego.

• 1:17:54Pete Roberts?

  By seventh grade, we were, we were almost dunking basketballs. By eighth grade, we were both dunking basketballs. I'm six, three, he's five, nine. How does that happen? Well, you've got to believe you can, right? And the way you believe you can is by

• 1:18:15Pete Roberts?

  having a mindset that you can't be stopped. That's ego. That's swagger. That's confidence. But it's different. It's different believing it and

• 1:18:33Pete Roberts?

  putting on blinders and getting into a fog. Then looking side to side as you're moving forward. And making sure there's not a fog in front of you and the fog is emotion. And the fog is, is when, when that wells up inside you because you need to prove something that you're going to do this, you're going to be this. I think that it's relationship based too. Where if someone's coming at you negatively and you're meeting that negativity with any emo- any emotional response. You got ego. You got ego. And at that point, you got to self-check.

• 1:19:17Pete Roberts?

  And I think the difference is, is those who are able to self-check know how to adjust their ego on the fly. You know, you've got to know how to self-check and a lot of that comes through understanding that there's a lot of people chasing you that are born every day, that are going to do great things, that you're here for a moment in time. And that you're not special.

• 1:19:39Pete Roberts?

  But believe you're special because you are, you know, and there's a dichotomy in that also. So I think there's a lot to it and honestly, I don't think I was a man until I was in my thirties. And I still think I'm working towards manhood and I truly believe that I truly believe like extreme ownership. I believe I'm still working towards manhood and I have a long freaking way to go. So I don't know how you teach that. I think it's, I think you can listen to the lessons of others. You know, you listen to your podcast, which is very powerful for people to listen to. And I think a lot of people here, that's, that's the reason when you talk to them, you know, in, in these private conversations, they, they.

• 1:20:24Pete Roberts?

  It just seems like they all have the same type of mindset, you know what I mean?

• 1:20:29Pete Roberts?

  But yeah, I mean ego, ego is a strong and powerful tool. If it's utilized right and you harness that ego, you can do great things. But if you hang on to it like it's your only tool, you're gonna fail.

• 1:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be careful with that one. There's a difference too between ego and pride. And they're very similar. Maybe they're the same, maybe they're just close cousins, maybe they're brothers and sisters, maybe they're twins. But, but because you know, pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But at the same time, of course, you want people to be proud of what they do. And you know, I know like again, with a SEAL platoon, you want those guys to get done with a block of training and have pride that they did it better. That they worked harder, that they got after it. That's what you want, but you just have to make sure that it doesn't overinflate and start to cause problems elsewhere.

• 1:21:29Pete Roberts?

  Well, ego is like, if you wanna, if you wanna distill it, it's like, you know, there's no I in team. That's ego. When, when it's individualized, it's ego. When it's a team effort and everyone's on the same page and moving towards the same purpose, it's confidence. You know, and it can, and it can be defined by, is it about you or is it about this? Is it about all of us or is it just about me? So.

• 1:21:58Pete Roberts?

  That's a constant struggle, I think, for a lot of entrepreneurs. I think for a lot of people in leadership is, is it's not about you. You know, it really isn't about you.

• 1:22:10Pete Roberts?

  It's about what you're doing and how you're doing it and that you play a role in that, but you're not. You're not the lead role, you know, you're, it's not a one man movie. You know, it's, it's, it's, it takes a supporting cast and that supporting cast is everybody behind the curtains that no one sees. And uh.

• 1:22:32Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. But how is it dealing with me? Dealing with you is great.

• 1:22:38Pete Roberts?

  You know what's funny is uh.

• 1:22:42Pete Roberts?

  We both have a certain level of ego, but we both don't. Because it, if you, if you check me like, hey, and you can ask a simple question and flank me real quick and be like, ah, I've got it. And let me shift my thinking real quick. Give me a second or whatever. We were having a conversation yesterday. And I was like, well, think about this. Well, what do you think about this? And I'm not going to share what that was. And you know, you pause. And you don't react, you respond.

• 1:23:11Pete Roberts?

  I like that because I know you're coming to me with a real answer that is you're emotionally detached from. And you thought about before you responded. And if it was an ego driven, you just would be like, dude, I just, bro, I just do this. You know, but you stop and you think about it and.

• 1:23:31Pete Roberts?

  That's real good. The other thing that's great about working with you is.

• 1:23:39Pete Roberts?

  And you're, you're real unique, right? Because you're this, you're this, you have a lot of influence, first of all. Over a lot of diverse, it's a diverse group of people. I've seen, I mean, just at this camp, if you look at the people that you've touched that are here. Men, women, younger, older, uh, from all different, let's say backgrounds, racial backgrounds, uh, cultural backgrounds, like there's tons of different types of people. And that's a sampling, that's just a sampling of the people you touch. You know, and for me to check my ego and look at you and say, well, how can Jaco touch these people

• 1:24:20Pete Roberts?

  the way he does, then I need to dig deeper and find out why. You know, and it don't, it, it takes a human, someone who, who, who understands humility to do that. Because your background is very unique. There's not everyone that's a Navy SEAL. There's not everyone's a Jiu Jitsu Black Belt. There's not everyone that runs a leadership company that's sought out by some of the biggest companies in the world. So I check my ego to be like, man. You just made me sound real cool. I, I check my ego to be like, man, Jaco actually is gonna help me.

• 1:25:00Pete Roberts?

  So when I call you, I'm not like, if I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna call Jaco and figure this out. I'm like, okay, Jaco's on the west coast. I'm check, I check my ego, I check everything. It's okay, Jaco's on the west coast. I know he's probably traveling, you know, Monday and Wednesday. He's gonna be in the airport, he's gonna be getting hit up. I'm gonna reach out to him at this time and see if he's got five minutes for a phone call, because I know how much your time is worth. So, which is interesting, cause you know what, when I, when I, when I think about working with you, right, um, which is, which is awesome. And, and I think the quickest way to explain it, and I'm, the only reason we're talking about this is because I think there's lessons to be learned from it.

• 1:25:43Pete Roberts?

  Uh, you and I make big decisions, big decisions. Quickly. Quickly. With, and the key factor in making big decisions quickly, between you and me, decisions that have a lot of money on the line, decisions that have people's, you know, livelihoods on the lines, we're making decisions like that. And.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  There's like no ego. So in other words, I like you might hit me up, hey, I think we should do this. And maybe I have a different idea and I just completely remove the fact that it's my idea or your idea. It's like who, which one of these two ideas is better?

• 1:26:18Pete Roberts?

  Is better.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  I don't care who, where it came from and, and you and I, I know we got some similar parts of our personality. Obviously we got some pretty divergent parts too.

• 1:26:28Pete Roberts?

  Cross over.

• 1:26:29Jocko Willink?

  And, and so it's, it's good to be able to just say, um, okay, I don't care whose idea this is. Which one of these two divergent ideas is going to be the better one for what we're trying to do? Which one is going to deliver more satisfaction to the people we're trying to serve, you know? Which is what we're always thinking about. How is this going to help the people that we're trying, the, the people that are trying, that we're trying to serve? How are we going to help them? How can we help them more?

• 1:26:55Pete Roberts?

  And you know what's funny is when you know you, your ego is playing a role in your decision making is when you have to say something like this.

• 1:27:05Pete Roberts?

  I'm emotionally detached. Number one, if you have to say it, you aren't. Number two, number two.

• 1:27:13Jocko Willink?

  Completely detached right now. I'm telling you right now, bro.

• 1:27:16Pete Roberts?

  Number two, you have to qualify your next statement by, and I've done this a few times and I feel like such a douchebag. You have to qualify your statement by this. I've done this for 20 years. I'm an expert in it. Yeah.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  Pete Roberts, expert marketer.

• 1:27:33Pete Roberts?

  So then, then I, then I get off the phone like, what a douchebag. Right. But you've got to understand that, that, that when you have to say those things, when you have to qualify those things, it's like saying Jaco says. You know, when you have to qualify your next statement, you've got ego and I do it, you know, daily.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  Even well, and in addition to not having, in addition to it being your ego that's going up, you also don't have a legitimate reason. Cause if it was a legitimate reason, you could articulate it properly.

• 1:28:00Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 1:28:01Jocko Willink?

  If I'm trying to say something to you. And I say, look, bro, these are this, I'll look, I have, I have a good podcast, a lot more people listen to my podcast than your podcast, you should listen to me. That means I couldn't actually articulate what I was trying to say properly. If I could articulate what I was trying to say, you'd go, oh, well, that makes sense.

• 1:28:20Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:28:21Jocko Willink?

  If I can't, then I go, my podcast got more listeners than yours, so listen to me. Like you said, that would be just mid level 12 douche.

• 1:28:30Pete Roberts?

  But you know, and it's been the same thing on sometimes you've said to me, you've said something, then you like, be like, I don't even know why I said that.

• 1:28:38Pete Roberts?

  It was just start laughing about it and be like, whatever, dude, let's just do what we're doing.

• 1:28:45Pete Roberts?

  I was gonna say something to that point, though, as far as the ego is concerned.

• 1:28:53Pete Roberts?

  I think that if you don't have that sense, that feeling, like it can be done, you can do it, you will do it. If you don't have that, I, I don't think you have the best tool you need.

• 1:29:12Jocko Willink?

  I said something at one of the musters.

• 1:29:15Jocko Willink?

  I said, and it's a dichotomy.

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  Belief won't get you anything, but without belief, you won't get anything.

• 1:29:27Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:29:27Jocko Willink?

  So belief by itself, like, you know, those people that are, they write a meme. I just had to throw that neck of voice.

• 1:29:35Pete Roberts?

  I always thought that was meme meme. I didn't, I never knew it was meme meme.

• 1:29:38Jocko Willink?

  Is it? Well, is it?

• 1:29:39Pete Roberts?

  It's meme.

• 1:29:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool. I was majorly close right there. The memes that say, you know, if you believe it, you can achieve it.

• 1:29:47Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:48Jocko Willink?

  And that's not true, because just believing it does not make you achieve it. If you say, I believe I'm going to be able to do 30 pull ups in two weeks and right now I can do seven. Belief isn't going to get you there.

• 1:30:01Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:30:02Jocko Willink?

  You have to, you, you have to make it happen. But if you truly don't believe that you can get there, you're not going to make the effort to, to, to get it done.

• 1:30:13Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  Because guess what? There's going to be times in any. In any pursuit that you make, there's gonna be times where you're gonna be put in check. You're gonna be tested. You're gonna, there's gonna be trials and tribulations. And if you don't believe that you can get, get there, you're gonna stop, you're gonna quit. And you're not gonna make it. So belief by itself won't get you anywhere. But without belief, you're not going anywhere.

• 1:30:42Pete Roberts?

  You know what I'd like to say is that you have, you have this, you, there's a dream. And a dream is something in a state of sleep. Then there's a belief. And then there's the thing you're trying to achieve. And then there's a void. And in that void, you have to fill it with action, you know, stepping forward. So dreaming is one thing. Everybody has dreams. Believing you take it a step further and then filling the void with action makes things happen. So, um, and we're on the same page. I mean, a thousand percent.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  Once again.

• 1:31:16Pete Roberts?

  Once again.

• 1:31:18Jocko Willink?

  Um, you know, that's, that's awesome. I'm glad that, you know, it's awesome to be working. And that, the things that we're doing, people are digging. So that's cool. But I wanted to like, actually talk a little bit since we're at Jiu Jitsu Camp right now.

• 1:31:32Pete Roberts?

  Can I give them example though?

• 1:31:34Jocko Willink?

  Of what?

• 1:31:34Pete Roberts?

  I wanna, I wanna just give an example of like, when you, when you, cause we're now, cause we're doing what we, what we would do is like, we work so well together. Right? We're doing the same damn thing, you know, like we're like, we work so well that we do work well together. But let, let's give an example of how something could have gone wrong. Or let's say we got off track for a minute and came back, right? Here we go. I designed this packaging and I was like, this is the best packaging. This is the nicest packaging.

• 1:32:01Jocko Willink?

  For?

• 1:32:02Pete Roberts?

  It was for a new product we shall not talk about.

• 1:32:05Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:06Pete Roberts?

  Okay. Yeah. And so it was, it was colorful. It was, it's gonna, you know, it's, it's perfect. It was great.

• 1:32:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Pete Roberts?

  Actually, what's funny is you tried to flank me on this one. I did, I flanked you. And the flank was so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, go ahead. I did try to flank you. And so I showed it to Be Little and Megan and they were like, that's awesome. I was like, yeah, I was like, I went a little over the top with it. But it like this packaging would be the best, right? That's what I told them. I built myself up. I built them up. This packaging would be the best because of my expertise, right? And and Brian's like, what's Jaco gonna think about it? And I was like, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. Doesn't matter. So here I have. Did you say, did you say like, you know what? We'll, we'll explain it to him. We'll get him.

• 1:32:59Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, I said, I said, he's gonna bring it down a level from what it is. But hopefully we'll hit somewhere in between. And so Brian, and then Brian's like, bro, if he doesn't like it, that's just ridiculous.

• 1:33:16Pete Roberts?

  And I'm like, no, I said, dude, I said, don't even worry about it. I said, don't even worry about it. Yeah, no factor, no factor. So, uh, so I sent it to you and it was like, no response. And then you're like, you know, you iced me. And, and, and, and part of, part of this, and when I, when I'm talking about drafting, right? Like, okay, my ego comes into play and then Jaco's ego comes into play. And then he says something, then I back off and then it comes back and his comes back and it back off. So there's this constant, but that's not ego. It's, it's not ego. It's coming to a decision that's best. So like, add this colorful, let's call it a rainbow, right? Then all of a sudden you're like, make the rainbow black.

• 1:34:02Pete Roberts?

  The whole rainbow. The whole rainbow, just make it black, the whole rainbow. And that would be kind of cool. So, uh, so I go out to Brian and I was like, yeah, Jaco does like it. And he like stands up and he's like, bro, he's like, he's like, if he doesn't like, this is ridiculous. I didn't know Be Little was such a hater. He tries to play all super cool. He's, he's, he's excited with me. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course he is. He's so, so I'm like, I, I literally, and then I like, then, then I literally, I was like.

• 1:34:35Pete Roberts?

  It's not on brand. It's not right. And so I made a quick check, right? And I was like, dude, I said, you know, I said, I think the packaging were great. But you know what? Let me go back to the drawing board because I haven't seen what else it could look like. How do you freaking know what else it could look like? So then I went back to the drawing board and, you know, and we, we pushed it further. We went on brand more with it. And then you're like, yeah, not bad. Still not good, whatever. You didn't really say this.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  I think my first four responses were for too much.

• 1:35:11Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:11Jocko Willink?

  Next one. Too much. Next one. Too much.

• 1:35:14Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, exactly. So you're like, okay, he's, he just wants me to bring this back to the basics. So.

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's funny. You use the term on brand. And that's one of those things I, I hear get thrown around like about, about brands, right? And I was at, I was getting interviewed the other day, some interview, and the guy said something about like, um, you know, it's, it's impressive how quickly you've built your brand.

• 1:35:41Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 1:35:42Jocko Willink?

  And I looked at him and I said, I'm not a brand. I'm a person. I'm a person. What I'm doing is not what I'm doing so that I can leverage

• 1:35:59Jocko Willink?

  people.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  What I do is just me and I'm just a person. So if you asked me if I would wear a rainbow T-shirt, I wouldn't.

• 1:36:11Pete Roberts?

  No, I've asked you to wear lots of stuff and you haven't.

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  And if, and if you asked me, but, but that's not because of I'm trying to be something. It's because that's who I am.

• 1:36:23Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 1:36:23Jocko Willink?

  And I have been, I had one of my bros who I hadn't seen in a while. And he, we met at a little place we'd go to in San Diego and I hadn't seen him in a year and a half. And he comes walking in and he sees me and I'm wearing the same thing that I always wear. A pair of jeans, a victory black T-shirt. And he walks in and he sees and it was winter time and I was wearing a flannel like a whatever like a

• 1:36:52Pete Roberts?

  Like a New England

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a New England but like cheap whatever flannel with the quilt inside of it.

• 1:36:57Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:59Jocko Willink?

  And um, he sees me and like when he sees me and this is kind of, you know, after the books and the podcast and he's another seal. So he's suspect. And he sees me and I see his face and his face like gets happy when he sees me. And he and he comes over and like does like a bro hug. And he says, bro, you're fucking exactly the same. And I was like, yeah, man. And he goes, I fucking knew it.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  And like that to me was the best compliment I'll ever get is like, okay, no matter what happens. I'm not a brand. I'm not doing anything for, you know, any other reason other than it's just me. And that's just, just what I'm doing. And if people are cool with it, man, that's awesome. I'm stoked.

• 1:37:48Pete Roberts?

  And that and that's what I love about you because you actually are checking your ego because this is who you are and you're not this person. And that's what, that's why you work, you know, that's why it works.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  No rainbows.

• 1:38:02Pete Roberts?

  No rainbows, man.

• 1:38:04Jocko Willink?

  No, uh, rainbow emojis coming from me.

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  I don't mind rainbows.

• 1:38:08Jocko Willink?

  Echo said, oh, oh, he texts my wife sometimes because they gotta organize some administrative stuff. He sent her a unicorn and a rainbow. Should I be pissed at that? Should another man send another, should?

• 1:38:21Pete Roberts?

  In what placement was it unicorn then rainbow or rainbow then unicorn?

• 1:38:25Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what kind of secret messages are going on over there. What's that even mean, bruh?

• 1:38:30Speaker 02

  Man, it's just a soft, very polite.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  Send a another man's wife. A rainbow and a unicorn in a text.

• 1:38:38Pete Roberts?

  Definitely not.

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  No, no, no, bro. You asked that question.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  Over the line.

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. You asked the question wrong. You, you, the question is, are there any possible circumstances where it's okay to send a rainbow and a unicorn?

• 1:38:51Pete Roberts?

  Well, let me give you, let me give you an example, Echo. If you're at

• 1:38:55Speaker 02

  I feel like we're miscommunicating.

• 1:38:56Pete Roberts?

  If you're at the local fair and you get the prized unicorn, the fluffy one, do you turn and hand it to your wife? Or do you turn and hand it to Chaco's wife?

• 1:39:05Speaker 02

  But, okay.

• 1:39:06Pete Roberts?

  I'm just kidding, dude. I'm just kidding.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  If I got a whole bucket of them, like I do with my phone, I'm gonna hand them to both the wives. I'm gonna hand them to my daughter, the wives, any other girls that walk by.

• 1:39:14Jocko Willink?

  Rainbows and unicorns all around.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  All around, man.

• 1:39:16Pete Roberts?

  Echo hasn't changed. Echo hasn't trained for a bit. He's coming after my neck and saying, I'm backing up from my I'm gripping it, ready to, yeah, no, I was just kidding. No, I think it's absolutely okay. Because we don't have ego.

• 1:39:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm just making sure.

• 1:39:30Pete Roberts?

  So we, you know, we're dropping ego. Hey, you know, they're friends.

• 1:39:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, that's cool. I guess. I don't send his wife unicorns and rainbows.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Right, but if you did, that's cool. In fact, I'd say, dang, that's kind of nice, Chaco.

• 1:39:41Pete Roberts?

  Dang.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  You know what?

• 1:39:43Pete Roberts?

  You guys got me saying dang.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  You want to know what? You want to know the only reason why I think it's acceptable? That this guy, Echo Charles, sends my wife unicorns and rainbows?

• 1:39:55Pete Roberts?

  Because you love him like a brother?

• 1:39:56Jocko Willink?

  No, because he sends me unicorns and rainbows too.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:40:00Jocko Willink?

  He keeps it real all around.

• 1:40:02Pete Roberts?

  He actually sends me, I think he actually sends my wife unicorns and rainbows.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  He probably does.

• 1:40:07Pete Roberts?

  You know what? He has the best flanking technique.

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  What does, what do he do?

• 1:40:13Pete Roberts?

  He makes sure the wives are happy.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:17Pete Roberts?

  Right?

• 1:40:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Has your wife ever been like, Echo's so nice?

• 1:40:21Pete Roberts?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:40:22Jocko Willink?

  That's like three unicorns and rainbow. All of a sudden, it's nice.

• 1:40:26Speaker 02

  Well, that's why I send them, because it's nice. So boom, there you go.

• 1:40:29Pete Roberts?

  Where is it?

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Win, win, win.

• 1:40:30Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, oh, man.

• 1:40:33Jocko Willink?

  So I did want to, before you, you brought it back to ego, which is cool, man. That's, that's good points, man. I mean, I think, you know, you and I are both like, regardless of anything else, we're both established human beings. Men with families and businesses.

• 1:40:46Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 1:40:46Jocko Willink?

  So there's definitely going to be, I mean, I remember when I met you, I was like,

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  You know, this may not work out. This may not work out. And I was like, you know, this guy, he's done a lot and his ego might be a little bit, there might not be enough room for, for someone else in this picture. What I realized is it wa- it wasn't ego. You know what it was? It was what I talked about earlier. It was pride. You were proud of what you and your team had done. Proud of that. Rightfully so.

• 1:41:15Pete Roberts?

  I'd say pride and protection.

• 1:41:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Like, life's work. You know, we just did the Kipling poem, if, everything you put your whole life into, that's what, that's what this is. And you're like, looking at me like, hey, man, hold on a second. Just let's do a little security check.

• 1:41:33Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 1:41:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But, you know, I just realized how proud you were of that and that your ego, your ego was, hey, I don't care about that. What I care about is making sure that this goes in the right direction. Like, what's kind of like what I just said about what is me? Well, this is you, right? This is like what you built and you want to make sure that it's reflected well.

• 1:41:59Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:00Jocko Willink?

  For all time.

• 1:42:00Pete Roberts?

  That's it.

• 1:42:01Jocko Willink?

  And there's not, nothing wrong with that. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't have made it this far. No chance.

• 1:42:11Pete Roberts?

  True.

• 1:42:12Jocko Willink?

  You'd have given up after the freaking first tangled bunch of threads came out of that.

• 1:42:19Jocko Willink?

  All right, Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:42:20Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  I want to talk, because it's a pretty, Jiu Jitsu camp is awesome, clearly. Jiu Jitsu immersion camp, if you don't know what we're talking about, it's, what is it, seven days total?

• 1:42:30Pete Roberts?

  Eee, Sunday to Sunday.

• 1:42:31Jocko Willink?

  Sunday to seven, Sunday, up in Maine, and

• 1:42:34Pete Roberts?

  The week before Labor Day.

• 1:42:35Jocko Willink?

  Week before Labor Day, Jiu Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu and Jiu Jitsu. Three times a day, we have sessions, people are training outside of sessions, but you've been running it for seven years. Beautiful camp here, Camp Laurel.

• 1:42:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:47Jocko Willink?

  What's the town?

• 1:42:48Pete Roberts?

  It's, we're actually in Mount Vernon, Maine.

• 1:42:50Jocko Willink?

  Mount Vernon, Maine.

• 1:42:52Pete Roberts?

  On Echo Lake.

• 1:42:52Jocko Willink?

  Echo Lake.

• 1:42:53Pete Roberts?

  Echo Charles.

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles Lake.

• 1:42:55Speaker 02

  Layers.

• 1:42:55Pete Roberts?

  Did you jump in this week?

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  Negative.

• 1:42:57Pete Roberts?

  Negative.

• 1:42:58Jocko Willink?

  How come?

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  I haven't found the time and.

• 1:43:01Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you can't even roll into YouTube. How did you forget about the time? You literally have nothing to do.

• 1:43:05Pete Roberts?

  Did you see him looking?

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  I'm done nineteen interviews.

• 1:43:08Pete Roberts?

  I know when, I know when you look up that direction, you go to the creative part of your brain instead of the analytical. Did you see that? He's like, can't find this time. You could've gone with a better word than time.

• 1:43:19Speaker 02

  It's like, I'm on my way. Like, when I think about it, I'm like, doing something and then, you know, when I'm done doing it, I just had, you know, it's not on my mind, forget.

• 1:43:27Pete Roberts?

  I haven't, I, I, I have not prioritized jumping in the lake either.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:32Jocko Willink?

  It was so hot when we got here. It was, it was actually, I was working out in the morning in the gym and it was, I was sweating so, because I sweat a lot.

• 1:43:39Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:39Jocko Willink?

  And, I mean, clearly, if you go on my social media, I, I take some pictures of my sweat sometimes. But, but I was sweating so much, it was freaking gross, because it was ninety-five degrees and humid. And so there's just Lake Jaco in the gym, sweat everywhere. I think people were, people were like, oh, fired up, Jaco's here. Oh, that's kind of gross.

• 1:43:59Pete Roberts?

  No, yeah, yeah, for, for a second, but then you jumped in the lake and then a bunch of people showed up and you were walking down the dock and everybody's like, oh shit, like King Arthur walking into his palace. You were just like, you were just like walking and I was like, and I was, I was standing up on my dock by the cabin and everyone was just like, oh, Jaco.

• 1:44:19Pete Roberts?

  Remember, remember Desi at the factory, when, when there was the baklava there and she came over to me and she's like, hey, can I have some baklava? And you were right next to her and she, she hadn't met you yet. She was like nineteen years old.

• 1:44:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:31Pete Roberts?

  And she listens to the podcast and I was like, uh, yeah, you gotta ask Jaco or whatever. She's like, oh, I just want it. And I was like, yeah, here, here, he's right there. And she looks behind her and she looks up, she's like, oh, Jaco. It was like, what? It was so funny. Anyways, we had like 200 people doing that. So you were just like, and then you got bombarded. It was awesome.

• 1:44:52Jocko Willink?

  Well, I have been hitting the lake after, after I get out of Lake Jaco in the gym, then I moved down to Lake Echo and go for a swim and it is, it is awesome. It's been warm too.

• 1:45:02Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, but people weren't prepped for the shift.

• 1:45:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no.

• 1:45:06Pete Roberts?

  I warned them.

• 1:45:07Jocko Willink?

  I know.

• 1:45:07Pete Roberts?

  I actually posted like videos in my car of the temperature. Like, hey, here's the temperature. It's 55 degrees. Look, see here, it's going to get colder. And the daytime is going to be 80 or 90. Prepare for that.

• 1:45:19Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:45:21Pete Roberts?

  How people forget so soon.

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  Um, so we're here for jujitsu, not just for swimming and working out, even though that is part of it. Uh, I want, I was wondering about, so it's, it's good to, when you do something, you've done this once every year, you do it, done it for seven years. When you have a frame like that, it's like a snapshot in time. I wanted to kind of ask you about what you've seen, first of all, jujitsu in terms of the people that are coming to camp. Who are they? What's been different?

• 1:45:54Jocko Willink?

  I mean, obviously there's a big change this year because we had a lot of people that listen to this podcast that have come up, probably have a couple hundred of them over the two days, I would say.

• 1:46:04Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know what the crazy thing is, is I'm a little bit crazy. Like I actually put my cell phone number into the public. Did I ever tell you that?

• 1:46:13Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:46:13Pete Roberts?

  Oh yeah. I'm like, hey, you coming to camp? You want to come to camp? Got a question? Here's my cell phone. So I usually preface it with like, don't text me crazy shit. Don't ask me random questions. But I can answer questions about camp because I want to give, I want to give people zero excuses. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know who's going to be coming. So the messages I got were like, hey, I listen to Jocko podcast. I have never trained jujitsu. Is this a good time to start? Hey, I'm 50 years old. I've never trained jujitsu. Would it be? Good to come to camp or not, you know, a lot of questions like that. And every single one, I said, I've got a bunch of people asking the same question.

• 1:46:53Pete Roberts?

  We'd love to have you and it will be the greatest singular experience you will ever have in jujitsu. Because you're going to be starting, not just in an amazing place, but with amazing instructors. And when I asked the first day, everybody raised their hand who hasn't trained jujitsu before. Were you, were you here at that first session?

• 1:47:12Jocko Willink?

  We were a couple hours behind.

• 1:47:15Pete Roberts?

  Fifty people, like, hand up. I looked at the other instructors like, holy crap.

• 1:47:20Jocko Willink?

  If you're listening and you want to train jujitsu, I do recommend that you do it.

• 1:47:24Pete Roberts?

  There we go.

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  I do recommend it's really good for you. It really is good for you in so many different ways. And to see the people here that have never trained jujitsu before.

• 1:47:34Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Jocko Willink?

  And see that it's, it, I've, well, I don't think any of us, none of us have ever, you don't ever get to see fifty people that have never trained jujitsu before. Or seventy-five people that have never trained jujitsu before. And you get to teach them all at once, at least I've never done that before.

• 1:47:49Pete Roberts?

  No, and I mean, you definitely don't get fifty-eight-year-old, seventh dan, judo, black belts who have never put on a jujutsu gi before. You know, looking for a white belt.

• 1:47:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:59Pete Roberts?

  And we've got one of them here too.

• 1:48:01Jocko Willink?

  No, it's, but my point in seeing all the people at one time. You know, when you occasionally get a white belt or someone that's never trained before and you teach them a couple of moves and you get to see one spark in someone's brain. Go, and they start to get it. But to see fifty people go, and the eyes open up. And it usually doesn't happen all at once because some people will get it when you get, you know, some people make the connection here, some people make the connection over here, some people make the connection over there. And it's, but in a, in a period of an hour and a half training session, you can definitely see people. You'll see twenty-five percent of the people make a real connection. And the connection is.

• 1:48:43Jocko Willink?

  Between knowing and not knowing, between, between not knowing what this thing is and how expansive it is, and knowing what this thing is and how expansive it is and how it is so powerful. I think that's the difference. When somebody goes, oh, like I did it yesterday, I was teaching just the mount escape and I was teaching the mount escape with, um, first the oompa, right? And then going to elbow scape. And as I explained, I was looking at this one girl and as I explained that as I try to oompa them over and the person moves

• 1:49:27Jocko Willink?

  out their leg to stop from being flipped over and I go, and I said, freeze, and I said, now look at his leg. And I said, that's what I wanted. And I slipped my leg out and put him in half guard. And I looked at her eyes and it was like, and her eyes got big. And I was like, I looked at, you know, everyone's looking, I go, look at her. She gets it. Cause that, cause that's when you realize, and then you realize that all this stuff, every move that you've seen over three days, it's all connected. It all makes sense. And it's all, it's all interwoven with each other into this fabric that creates this thing.

• 1:50:03Pete Roberts?

  You looked at me yesterday and you're like, hey, get me in quarter guard. And I'm like, what's quarter guard?

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:08Pete Roberts?

  You're like, mountain, put a foot in or whatever. I didn't know, I didn't actually know it was a, I just thought was like, I just thought was, that was me trying to mount you or pass the guard. But you showed the one, you like, I go to deep half. And I was like, I go to deep half from here. That's what I like to do. And you're like, well, let me show the move because your move's too complex. I was like, yeah, they're failing at it right now. And so you kind of took the control of that session. And you did this move where how you got a deep half. And I was like thinking to myself, I looked at, and I had one of those. Love. And I was like, oh snap. Cause you use this, use the same clamp hip rotation I use for like one of my special sweeps.

• 1:50:50Pete Roberts?

  And I, and I didn't, it never registered. And I was like, that first thing I'm teaching when I get back is that right there.

• 1:50:55Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's Jeff Glover.

• 1:50:56Pete Roberts?

  That's awesome.

• 1:50:57Jocko Willink?

  Jeff Glover was the head jujitsu instructor with Dean at my gym for four years. So we did a lot of deep half guard. Not enough. I need more, but he had some great setups there. You know, and what are you seeing right now moves? Well, at camp one?

• 1:51:15Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:15Jocko Willink?

  What did everyone want to learn?

• 1:51:16Pete Roberts?

  Well, first of all, camp one was a bloodbath. Not really a bloodbath.

• 1:51:22Jocko Willink?

  You guys just came up here to beat each other.

• 1:51:23Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, we, for camp one was, first of all, I had.

• 1:51:27Jocko Willink?

  What belt were you in camp one?

• 1:51:29Pete Roberts?

  I think I was a fresh black belt. I think I had, I think I had just gotten it. Yeah. Because it was 2012, I had just gotten back from Abu Dhabi and I was on top of my game. And we had like a, you know, Agusta Mendez was up here. Rafael Formiga Barbosa, and then the main, the main crew, the deck going, McKenzie Darren was up here. So that, that first year,

• 1:52:01Pete Roberts?

  we were just beating up on each other.

• 1:52:03Jocko Willink?

  Just came up here to basically trade.

• 1:52:04Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, everyone was competing and whatnot.

• 1:52:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Pete Roberts?

  And what had happened is, is we had launched like, hey, we're bringing these experts. But we had launched that after we had, you know, started, had the registration running for a while. And what we saw that first year was we didn't pick up a lot of extra people.

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  By having the experts?

• 1:52:25Pete Roberts?

  The experts.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:52:26Pete Roberts?

  And so people came and then we did the second year was a lot like the first year, except there was more people. And what we came to find out is that people were looking for an experience. Right? Everyone's looking for something and.

• 1:52:45Pete Roberts?

  The way that we love jujitsu and how it's affected our lives, it's almost like if you inject that with something extra. That's what camp is.

• 1:52:53Jocko Willink?

  So Dean pointed this out to me. He's up here right now, Dean Lister. Uh, Dean pointed out to me that in Europe, he says, adults do camps. They, they go to camp. In America, kids go to camp. And, and, and that makes sense, right? I said, I've, I've never even dreamt of going into a camp, a camp. I never even dreamt as an adult. Are you kidding me? I never thought about that. But in Europe, apparently, hey, it's totally normal to say, hey, you're going to go to this rock climbing camp or you're an adult. You're a grown person. You're going to go to a gymnastics or a yoga camp or something like that. Or you're going to go to a tennis camp as an adult. In America, we don't do that.

• 1:53:31Pete Roberts?

  No.

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  We do now.

• 1:53:32Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, we do.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu camp.

• 1:53:33Pete Roberts?

  That's right.

• 1:53:34Jocko Willink?

  Come and get some. And, you know, Echo and I were talking the other day, and I think this is a great premise.

• 1:53:40Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 1:53:40Jocko Willink?

  And I don't want this to sound crazy, right? But imagine if the goal of the camp is to increase your skill level one belt.

• 1:53:56Pete Roberts?

  That's actually is a very good reality.

• 1:54:00Jocko Willink?

  So it's not, it might not be realistic, right? You're not going to go, you're not going to gain that much skill. But let me break it down. You're, okay, your initial thought is like, no way could that happen, right? You can't get that much better in a short period of time. But now I want you to think about something. You go, you train, if you come here and you train for six hours a day, for seven days, what do you got? Forty-two hours? You take that, that's two or three months worth of training. But, but think about this. How often when you go to training, are you learning a move that you already knew?

• 1:54:35Pete Roberts?

  Often.

• 1:54:35Jocko Willink?

  How often are you going to training, you're learning a move that really doesn't fit your style?

• 1:54:39Pete Roberts?

  Often.

• 1:54:40Jocko Willink?

  What if you came to a place where you were just going to learn the moves that you needed to improve your skill level that much? Now, I think we're close. I mean, that you're, you're, you're going to walk out of this camp as is right now, just way better, way better. I was thinking about it. One time I taught a group of SEALs, five straight days, eight hours a day for, for jujitsu. I called it, I named it. I named the course, what? It was called Jaco.

• 1:55:13Jocko Willink?

  J period O period C period K period O and it was it stood for Jiu Jitsu Offense for Combat Killing Operations.

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  Typical Jaco fashion. I was like, I don't know, I was young. Twenty six or something, twenty five, but it's, but anyways, so, but what I've noticed is that when I was teaching Jaco Offense for Combat Killing Operations, when I was teaching that course of instruction, um, even though I was training guys that had never trained, and I was a blue belt at the time, but even though I was training guys that had never trained before, I was still going to Fabios, my, my teacher at night. And every day I got like better, every day I got better. And I thought to myself, oh, wow, there's something to this. And that's why when I would do deployments with no guys to train with, I would just have my guys come and train with me, you know, like, hey, you come from

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  twelve to twelve fifteen and you come from twelve fifteen to twelve thirty and I'd just roll with every guy in the platoon and just to get the mat time, because that mat time is going to help you. But then if you imagine this, you take what we're doing here, you have specific instruction instructors that are good at different little parts of the game. Exactly. And you go, oh, Alexei, can you help me with my de la heva? I'm going to spend the next four hours getting not a private, but a private. Basically. Basically, from Alexei, oh, Dean Lister's here. Hey, Dean, can you show me how to finish this heel hook? In these different positions, you know what I mean? I like, you could go, uh, the deco, can you, look, I want to, I want to sweep

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  from butterfly guard. Can you, you're a master at this, can you perfect my game in that area? And I think if you carved it upright. You could, look, are you gonna get a new belt level? No, but if you make that your goal to get in here and fill holes, you're gonna walk out of here with massive amounts of improvement.

• 1:57:14Pete Roberts?

  You know what's incredible? And that's the immersion part of it. Like it's immersion, you know? People are very nervous about, not so much anymore, but I still get a lot of emails like, is it right for me? And it's well, we're all adults, first of all. So it's, there's sessions and there's opportunity outside those sessions. But everyone's here for the same purpose. And like I say, hey, no one's gonna win a camp trophy.

• 1:57:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:39Pete Roberts?

  Right? It's not what it's all about. It is full on immersion of jujitsu.

• 1:57:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:45Pete Roberts?

  From some of the world's best. But we've had people come to camp as a new blue belt. They're now black belts. They still come to camp.

• 1:57:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:55Pete Roberts?

  Usually when you hit purple belt, you get a bit of ego. When you hit brown belt, you're basically a black belt. And when you hit black belt, you think you should be sponsored.

• 1:58:09Pete Roberts?

  That's how it goes in jujitsu.

• 1:58:10Jocko Willink?

  That's probably out here on the, on the west coast in San Diego.

• 1:58:14Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  Like, yeah, you're not thinking that.

• 1:58:17Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  There's too many black belts.

• 1:58:20Pete Roberts?

  Did you see all the black belts and brown belts out there that register for camp?

• 1:58:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:24Pete Roberts?

  It's crazy. It's crazy. So it is, it's like a full immersion for all levels, which it's incredible to be able to bring all the levels to camp.

• 1:58:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now this needs to be said. It's also in what we would call in the military, a gentleman's course.

• 1:58:42Pete Roberts?

  Yes.

• 1:58:42Jocko Willink?

  So do the civilians know what that means? The difference, okay. In the military, a, a normal course of instruction means you're gonna go and you're gonna be basically treated like crap and you're gonna do crappy things. And it's like, hey, we're gonna make you understand this. A gentleman's course like, okay, look, we're gonna get the material covered. You're gonna get treated like a grown man. Or in this case, grown woman. You're not gonna be treated like a child. So that, so this place is gentleman's course. It's not like, hey, you will be, if you wanna skip a session here.

• 1:59:15Pete Roberts?

  Skip a session.

• 1:59:16Jocko Willink?

  Skip a session. You don't wanna do takedowns? Don't, don't, don't do takedowns. You don't, you wanna relax in the morning and don't wanna do the morning session, or you wanna stay up on the mat all night and get on vampire hours? Get some.

• 1:59:27Pete Roberts?

  I got on vampire hours.

• 1:59:29Jocko Willink?

  That's, yeah, I know.

• 1:59:29Pete Roberts?

  2 AM every morning.

• 1:59:31Jocko Willink?

  So, so it's a gentleman's course. And, and you can come here and you can pick and choose what you wanna do. If you, there's people here, I thought this was cool. People here that are injured that cannot roll. But they're here and they're learning moves and they're drilling as much as they can. And then, cool, they're gonna go home and use them live when they can use them live. So that part's, that part's pretty cool. Uh, what I wanna go, I hate to drag you back this, but moves, do you remember moves like from seven years ago that people were looking at? Compared to now? Anything, does anything jump out at you, or am I just like talking up on the wrong trick?

• 2:00:05Pete Roberts?

  No, totally, total. I mean, I remember standing there, I remember sitting in the stands watching Hodger Gracie choke everybody out from out. Every single person in the pyramid at the world championships. And thinking, that's, and I was young, young, you know, belt, and I'm thinking like, oh, that's real jiu-jitsu. Then I remember the Mendez brothers barimboloing everybody. And then thinking like, well, maybe, maybe that's jiu-jitsu. You know, but as you progress, you come to find out it's all jiu-jitsu and it's all cyclical. And that's the bottom line. There's a cycle of jiu-jitsu and things. You know, your body can only do certain things, right? You can only,

• 2:00:49Pete Roberts?

  you can't bend your elbow backwards. You know, there's, you have some resilience, you build up some resilience to different things, but.

• 2:00:57Pete Roberts?

  It's a, it's this cyclical thing and I've seen things that came and then were defended and then changed. They came again and were defended and then changed. Like the daily heba guard. I love the daily heba guard. And it's coming back, you know, and, and, and it's the first time, the first time I've seen it come back is when that, that new kid swept Buchesha with a straight up daily heba sweep. Who's that kid that's coming on the scene hardcore now?

• 2:01:28Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 2:01:28Pete Roberts?

  Um, Marigalli?

• 2:01:31Jocko Willink?

  Marigalli?

• 2:01:31Pete Roberts?

  I don't know. Yeah. But as far as moves for me, uh, I always stick to the, the basics, like, you know, make them skate on ice when you're on bottom and put them under the ice when you're on top. And I just try to stick to those two things and, you know, moves come or go, but, you know, the concepts stay the same. They don't ever change. Concepts in jujitsu, conceptually, nothing ever changes. You're trying to do something.

• 2:01:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's like the laws of combat.

• 2:01:58Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 2:01:58Jocko Willink?

  The, the concepts don't change. Cover and move is cover and move.

• 2:02:02Pete Roberts?

  There you go.

• 2:02:02Jocko Willink?

  And it's off balancing someone is putting them off balance.

• 2:02:05Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  What, when you see different people teach, what type of instruction do you think works best for you personally, Pete Roberts?

• 2:02:14Pete Roberts?

  For me, I want clear, concise, uh, just straightforward, show me once.

• 2:02:22Jocko Willink?

  Do you like to see the move?

• 2:02:26Jocko Willink?

  Like, like individual moves? Or do you like to understand the broader concept?

• 2:02:32Pete Roberts?

  I'm a concept guy.

• 2:02:33Jocko Willink?

  I am too.

• 2:02:34Pete Roberts?

  Cause my artsy fartsy baby mind, but I like the concepts of it.

• 2:02:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it's weird. And that's one thing that's good about this is you have some of the instructors teach, here's the, here's move one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. That's the move.

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  You do these seven things, that's the move. Other teachers here are like, here's what you're trying to do first. Here's what you're trying to do second. Here's what you're trying to do third. It's probably going to cause this to happen. And when that happens, here's what you're going to do with it.

• 2:03:05Pete Roberts?

  It's a linear system and I look at jujitsu nonlinear.

• 2:03:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:08Pete Roberts?

  But it's okay to look at linear too, because some people, that's their learning.

• 2:03:11Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say that, well, that's why I'm saying this is some people. I give them the concept and then they say, because I'm a conceptual teacher.

• 2:03:19Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:19Jocko Willink?

  I give them the concept and they say, okay, where do I grab?

• 2:03:23Pete Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  And as soon as they ask me that, I realize, I say, okay, grab here. Other hand here, foot here. Push, pull, lean, there it is.

• 2:03:35Pete Roberts?

  That's why I'm a shitty teacher.

• 2:03:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, you're only, you're only a shitty teacher to people that aren't, that don't learn the way you do.

• 2:03:42Pete Roberts?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:03:43Jocko Willink?

  So like that, I think that's good to have people. I mean, how long you been training for?

• 2:03:50Pete Roberts?

  Uh, 2006. I started, so 12 years.

• 2:03:56Jocko Willink?

  You've been training 12 years and I showed a move that.

• 2:04:01Pete Roberts?

  You were a black belt when I was, you know, in diapers and jujitsu.

• 2:04:05Jocko Willink?

  So, so I showed a move that you didn't see in 12 years.

• 2:04:09Pete Roberts?

  Right.

• 2:04:10Jocko Willink?

  You showed a move, I've been training for longer, 20 something years. And you showed move I didn't, never seen before. Does that mean I need to expose myself to more? Yes, but it also means, guess what? There's only so much knowledge. And what's cool about this is the moves get filtered by human beings, right? You're not, you're not out there teaching a move that you haven't used and don't feel good about. Whereas there could be moves that you can learn, like all that person's never actually used that move before. So, things to be interested. You know, you talked about immersion and I explain this to everyone. I don't know if I've ever, have I ever done a language compared language to on this podcast?

• 2:04:54Speaker 02

  Oh, on this podcast, I don't know.

• 2:04:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I don't know either.

• 2:04:58Jocko Willink?

  For people that want to learn jujitsu. This is an immersion camp, but no matter where you're learning it. This is great. I know what you're gonna say. The language thing. You, you really got me when you said this. Okay, so here's what, here's what it is to learn jujitsu. And I compare it to learning a language. I was an English major. So, and I studied linguistics inside of studying English. Learning a language and learning jujitsu are very similar. When you, so when Echo, who Echo gives a great introductory course to jujitsu. It's like, what do you teach? Mount, you teach all the positions, mount, back, half guard, guard. Side mount. Side control.

• 2:05:41Jocko Willink?

  And you teach a little bit of action from each one, maybe one or two submissions from one or two. One or two escapes from one or two. So it's a total of five positions and seven moves. Let's say something like that. When he gets done teaching that introduction, and it's actually the same introduction that I basically teach. And when I, when I've taught at the muster, this is when I first said this at the muster, I said, when we got done with this hour and a half and all these people are all fired up because they know how to do the Americana and they know how to do the, the rear naked choke and they're, they're basically in their minds, trained killers. Oh, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And when we get done with that,

• 2:06:19Jocko Willink?

  I say, okay, you have just learned the, the one line that forms the small letter A that goes down the side, that you've only learned, you haven't even actually learned the letter A yet. Exactly. In terms of looking at his language. You train for another few hours, you might have an A, right? And then, then, okay, now, but can you speak a sentence? Nope, you can't even form a word yet. There's one word you can form, it's ah. You got one word. That's basically where we're at. So what you need to do is you need to learn more moves. But once you learn different, you couldn't just learn letters, you need to learn how to spell. That's how you put the moves together.

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  And then you gotta learn how to fit those moves together in, against and alongside other moves. That's a sentence. And then you gotta figure out how you're gonna roll through a paragraph. And then you putting these moves together, then you realize that it's also like language. It's like debate, you're actually, somebody's throwing other words at you and you need to learn how to respond to them. And once you learn all those words and you learn how to put them into paragraphs and you get to end of that and you think you've mastered the language, then someone says, hey, guess what? You gotta learn German now, which is, you know, judo. And then you gotta learn sambo, which is Russian and you gotta learn all these different languages. You gotta learn all these different languages in order to really truly understand.

• 2:07:44Pete Roberts?

  And I feel like, I feel like black belt for me, like getting to black belt was the, the start of, that was like, okay, the English language. But I felt my grammar still sucks.

• 2:07:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I feel like.

• 2:07:58Pete Roberts?

  I'm not even gonna get to those other languages yet.

• 2:08:00Jocko Willink?

  I feel like from a language perspective, when you get your black belt, you have the language capability of like a 10 year old kid.

• 2:08:06Pete Roberts?

  Right, right.

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  Like a 10 year old kid, like you, you can get, you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to just pick up a book and start reading it. You're not, you're not gonna be able to do that. You have to be, you know, one of these guys that has been training and teaching for a really long time and competing and rolling. And though, and really have like a broad mind.

• 2:08:25Pete Roberts?

  You know what's crazy is I, you know, we got the, the plastic forks in the comments. Someone was asking me what the stripes mean. And so I took out the plastic forks and I lined them up. I said, that's three years of black belt. That's three years of black belt, first two, the next one. That's five years, that's five years, that's seven years, that's seven. I said, so when you look at someone, you can see how long they've been a black belt. Cause their, their question was, are there differences in black belts? Absolutely, there's differences. Most of these guys have been black belts and world championship and have a hundred black belts when I just started training jiu jitsu. So, go to them. They've got the knowledge. I'm still trying to learn that.

• 2:09:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And there are, I mean, yeah, there's as much disparity in black belts as there are from white to brown belt.

• 2:09:16Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:17Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's that much difference.

• 2:09:18Pete Roberts?

  Absolutely.

• 2:09:20Jocko Willink?

  All right, cool. I think, I think that's a good place to.

• 2:09:25Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:26Jocko Willink?

  Wrap.

• 2:09:27Pete Roberts?

  Wrap it.

• 2:09:27Jocko Willink?

  Wrap it. Um, speaking of wrapping up, Echo Charles?

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:09:34Jocko Willink?

  You didn't even jump into that jiu jitsu conversation very much.

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  You guys are nailing it on the head every single time.

• 2:09:40Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:09:40Speaker 02

  Maybe not every single time, but yeah.

• 2:09:43Jocko Willink?

  No, nothing.

• 2:09:44Pete Roberts?

  He's like, every single time. And he's like, not every single time.

• 2:09:46Speaker 02

  We'll just say every time. I got it, you know, in the spirit of.

• 2:09:48Jocko Willink?

  How much torture, how much torture? So for those of you who don't know, Echo Charles has a, we'll call it a broken wing.

• 2:09:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  Broken wing, got that bicep injury, recovering. How much torture was it to be here without rolling?

• 2:10:05Speaker 02

  It was like, um, like I broke. You know, when you torture someone, then they break?

• 2:10:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  So I broke, yeah, the other day. So I actually rolled two rounds.

• 2:10:16Speaker 02

  I didn't re-injure it or nothing like this, but.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  You definitely felt it.

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  I heard it just from the, all the twisting activities. So it's like, but I feel it is just one of those hurt things. It's, it'll be fine, absolutely fine. But yeah, torturous to, as far as the degree, whatever degree it takes to break. That's me.

• 2:10:34Jocko Willink?

  It's different with different people.

• 2:10:35Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 2:10:36Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, well, maybe we're not going to torture anyone, but if we want to help them instead of torture them.

• 2:10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:43Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you could, you know, clue us in on how to do that.

• 2:10:46Speaker 02

  Demonstrate, well, actually what? Illustrate. No, illustrate is drawing.

• 2:10:50Jocko Willink?

  No, illustrate is also explained.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, like paint a picture, if you will, even metaphor. All right, let's do it. Okay, let's talk about origin first. Like we always do, by the way.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. Pete, since you're here, what do you think?

• 2:11:03Pete Roberts?

  What do I think?

• 2:11:04Speaker 02

  What do you think about Origin? It's like, you know, you know anything about this or what?

• 2:11:10Pete Roberts?

  I know a little bit about it. I've been involved for a little while. What do you want to talk about with Origin?

• 2:11:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:11:17Pete Roberts?

  And the whole podcast is kind of like about their vision. Yeah.

• 2:11:20Jocko Willink?

  We haven't done this before. Okay. New person hasn't trained jujitsu before, need a gi. Which one should they get?

• 2:11:27Pete Roberts?

  Well, there's only one to get.

• 2:11:29Jocko Willink?

  What's specific?

• 2:11:30Pete Roberts?

  That is a never trained jujitsu. Comp, get a, get a comp athletic gi. It's a, so, so there's levels of gees. Uh, we make a gi here in the United States from American Girl and Cotton. And you've heard Echo say that before. A gi is a tool you need to start your journey. Most schools are going to require you to have one. Uh, normally if you start at MMA school, you're going to start with a rash guard and some shorts. But if you're going to go try jujitsu, and I would recommend, you know, trying it in the gi first, you're going to need a gi. And that right there is, is a tool you're going to use in your journey. It's not just something you wear. It's actually a tool.

• 2:12:15Pete Roberts?

  It's actually something you're going to grip and hold and turn and twist. And when you're doing that, or when someone's doing that to you, you need the best tool. And that's what we make up here in Maine are the best tools for training. In the form of, it just happens to be a gi.

• 2:12:30Jocko Willink?

  So someone's never trained before. Comp athletic.

• 2:12:34Pete Roberts?

  Comp athletic.

• 2:12:35Jocko Willink?

  Comp athletic.

• 2:12:36Pete Roberts?

  So I did it in like Portugal, I made it in Portuguese, it's A T L E T, so it's atleta.

• 2:12:40Jocko Willink?

  But I thought, you just said, I thought you said.

• 2:12:42Pete Roberts?

  I say atleta.

• 2:12:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:12:44Pete Roberts?

  Because that means athlete, so comp athlete, comp atleta.

• 2:12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's that artsy.

• 2:12:49Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it's a little over the top.

• 2:12:50Speaker 02

  Hey, but that's not like a hard and fast, like, hey, if you're just beginning, you should get this. It's kind of, that's kind of like your just recommendation.

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because I use it too. I use it, but I mean, I have an axiom too.

• 2:13:02Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, I mean, the axiom is like next level. Like if you're serious about training, like you're going to commit to it. Like you're really going to commit to it. You need to get an axiom.

• 2:13:10Speaker 02

  So if you were compared to like a surfboard, right? I mean, I'm assuming you start surfing and you get the, you know, like you ever watched North Shore? Remember that?

• 2:13:18Jocko Willink?

  With a surfboard.

• 2:13:19Speaker 02

  Well, you ever watched North Shore? Bro, okay.

• 2:13:23Jocko Willink?

  I have, but I haven't seen it in a long time.

• 2:13:25Speaker 02

  So he wanted to ride, well, the board, he, I forget. You ever watch North Shore?

• 2:13:28Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:13:28Speaker 02

  Oh dang, too bad. Yeah, it's west coast. Anyway, so this kid, Rick Kane, for real, if surfers, if any surfer listening will be like, yeah, North Shore. It's cheesy. I get it.

• 2:13:38Jocko Willink?

  I know, man. I get it.

• 2:13:40Speaker 02

  The point, the point.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  I'm not in the loop.

• 2:13:42Speaker 02

  It's okay.

• 2:13:43Jocko Willink?

  Welcome to Echo's podcast. You're not in the loop.

• 2:13:47Speaker 02

  Rick Kane wins a surfing competition in Arizona.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:51Speaker 02

  In the tank.

• 2:13:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:52Speaker 02

  Goes to Hawaii because he's gonna surf the big waves. He gets this trainer, old school, soul surfer type guy.

• 2:13:56Jocko Willink?

  Who plays that? Jerry Lopez?

• 2:13:58Speaker 02

  No, no, Jerry Lopez is Vince on the kind of the rival, the local. Anyway, that's a different point. So he kind of, at one point, this is a small, kind of a small part of the movie, but he wants to use this like special board that his trainer kind of shapes or, or, or had or whatever. And he's like, bro, you're not ready for that yet. It's not like that, right?

• 2:14:16Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, it's not like that at all. Because you could get an Axiom day one.

• 2:14:20Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, we have people that do.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:22Pete Roberts?

  They'll listen to your podcast and they'll be like, I gotta start jiu jitsu. I need the best.

• 2:14:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cool. That is, the Axiom's comfortable as can be.

• 2:14:30Pete Roberts?

  But we were reinventing the gi again for next year.

• 2:14:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know, we mentioned it.

• 2:14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you do really good things like, um, like the pants, for example.

• 2:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:39Speaker 02

  Like, you know, a regular, I don't know, regular, whatever, a different kind of gi.

• 2:14:43Pete Roberts?

  Trash bag style pants versus.

• 2:14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know.

• 2:14:45Pete Roberts?

  Mapping, body mapping pants.

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a big deal.

• 2:14:48Pete Roberts?

  Yes. That's really what set us apart initially.

• 2:14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could see why.

• 2:14:52Pete Roberts?

  It's really why we, one of the reasons we decided to bring manufacturing back is because every time we come up with something, it'd get ripped off. Our manufacturer would just send it over overseas and have, give it to somebody else. And the pants is a huge, huge thing for better training.

• 2:15:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, fully. Also, speaking of pants, joggers, I don't know if I said this before. I told some guys earlier today or yesterday, you know, joggers, I don't know if you remember this, last year you were like, oh yeah, and here's some, here's some joggers or whatever. And I was like, joggers, you know, isn't that the slim fit one? You know? And you're like, yeah, so I was like, whatever, you know, origin, I'm the representative, put them on. Then what Pete said, I didn't tell you this joke. He goes, he goes, yeah, you know, it is more of a stylish thing. He's like, you can pull it off. I was like, ooh, thanks, bruh. And truly, truly, hundred percent true. Now, I like, I have joggers. I'm kinda into joggers now. I even bought pants that weren't sweatpants that were that jogger style. And I'm not joking. Yeah.

• 2:15:49Pete Roberts?

  A guy came to me on the mat. He's like, hey, man, I was hoping you'd sign this book for me. But I gotta tell you, I bought joggers yesterday. I was like, I can't do it, bro. Not signing it. And I signed it, but.

• 2:16:02Speaker 02

  But the thing is, they're, they're not only, okay, so you have joggers, which I dig, because if you do really jog in them, like they are, it's like they're ergonomically kinda made for actual jogging, because they don't flap on the bottom or whatever, and they give you room in the hips.

• 2:16:15Pete Roberts?

  Is that the difference between joggers and?

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Like sweats or something, sweatpants.

• 2:16:18Pete Roberts?

  What's the difference?

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  I'm not mad, just the, the shape. So, and this, I'm just assuming this, by the way.

• 2:16:23Pete Roberts?

  The shape is different, but what is the difference?

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  They're slimmer on the, yeah, they're slimmer on the legs. And then usually, they're a little bit more roomy in the hips, right? Like in the, in the.

• 2:16:31Pete Roberts?

  Are the knees roomy at all?

• 2:16:37Speaker 02

  That's good, that's good. They're more roomy for me. I get it. Yeah. Anyway, they're functionally sound is what I'm saying.

• 2:16:45Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:45Speaker 02

  But you add that, in which I've said this, I don't know what ratio, cotton to whatever you guys are using, but I've named them officially, by the way.

• 2:16:54Pete Roberts?

  Okay.

• 2:16:54Speaker 02

  The most comfortable pants in the world.

• 2:16:56Pete Roberts?

  The most comfortable pants in the world.

• 2:16:58Speaker 02

  It's a bold statement.

• 2:16:59Pete Roberts?

  Dude, I'm taking that. Can I take that?

• 2:17:00Speaker 02

  Bruh, it's yours. You're the man.

• 2:17:02Pete Roberts?

  You know what goes good with the joggers is our hoodies and, you know, and I, I tell you, I walked in last night to the training. It was last night. And I was like, oh, Jaco's wearing a hoodie. And I was like, and I was on the other side of the room and I was like, that's a good looking hoodie. And I was like, but it's all black. I was like, what the frig is he wearing? I was like, he brought a hoodie, a different hoodie. And then I started walking closer and then you started coming over and I was like, oh, it's a black on black origin hoodie. I was like, that's pretty badass.

• 2:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:38Pete Roberts?

  Yeah. I keep hoodies for a really long time.

• 2:17:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:41Pete Roberts?

  Like t-shirts. Only they don't wear out as quick, right? So you can wear a hoodie for a long time.

• 2:17:46Speaker 02

  That new hoodie we've developed though, out of the Infinity fleece.

• 2:17:49Pete Roberts?

  That's probably gonna be a lot, that's gonna be even longer than the old one.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  Last forever.

• 2:17:54Pete Roberts?

  Uh, what else we got? We got supplements, some joint warfare.

• 2:17:59Jocko Willink?

  Some krill oil, some discipline.

• 2:18:02Pete Roberts?

  Did you know that joint warfare for Origin is the top selling product across the board? When it comes to like all jujitsu, all nutrition, everything we make? Joint Warfare has the greatest impact on humanity than any other product.

• 2:18:19Speaker 02

  Makes sense.

• 2:18:20Pete Roberts?

  It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

• 2:18:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, people are into it, myself included. And you know, Be Little was telling me that.

• 2:18:30Pete Roberts?

  I love how we call him Be Little. When you say that, what it does to my brain? It's like eating ice cream. Just say Be Little one time with me.

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just, no, I was talking to Be Little.

• 2:18:44Speaker 02

  Bro, just now I just caught that like Be Little, like, okay, it's B period little, right? Cause you know, right now I just caught the fact that it's like the same as like Be Little, like you're belittling somebody.

• 2:18:55Pete Roberts?

  Oh, I didn't know.

• 2:18:58Speaker 02

  I thought that that's why it was so funny.

• 2:19:00Pete Roberts?

  I didn't know.

• 2:19:00Jocko Willink?

  That's why it's so funny, dude. Why did you even think it was funny without knowing that it was Be Little?

• 2:19:06Pete Roberts?

  Because I thought it made him like small.

• 2:19:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, physically small. Be Little?

• 2:19:12Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like be, like because, because his name was.

• 2:19:16Jocko Willink?

  You could be strong or you could be little.

• 2:19:18Pete Roberts?

  Exactly, or you could be little.

• 2:19:20Speaker 02

  So I was like, it's like. You're telling him, go be little, go be little somewhere.

• 2:19:23Jocko Willink?

  No, I always thought of it as like Be Little.

• 2:19:26Pete Roberts?

  Like I'm.

• 2:19:29Pete Roberts?

  Dude, you wanna hear something great? I had someone call up to me at camp and we were in the cafeteria like one of the first days and he comes up to me and he's kind of got his head down a little bit and he's like, hey, and I was like, hey, and I thought he was gonna say something like, it's great to meet you, cause that's, you know, my ego, whatever. And he's like, is Be Little here?

• 2:19:49Pete Roberts?

  I was like, yes, he is. I'm so glad you asked that. Anyways, what were we talking about? Be Little?

• 2:19:54Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Be Little, oh yeah, um, well, he just, he just said, if someone has to choose between Joint Warfare and Krill Oil, he said, if you're doing.

• 2:20:09Jocko Willink?

  If you're trying to recover something.

• 2:20:12Pete Roberts?

  Joint Warfare.

• 2:20:13Jocko Willink?

  Joint Warfare. If you're doing maintenance. Krill oil, because the krill will maintenance other areas as well. So anyways, that's that. I. I, yeah, you can, I, I, and what's unfortunate for me is when people ask me which one, I don't know what to tell them because I've been taking, you know, I take them both all the time in pretty heavy doses. So anyways, also milk train.

• 2:20:36Speaker 02

  Big time.

• 2:20:36Jocko Willink?

  Milk train.

• 2:20:37Speaker 02

  Still on the milk train, by the way.

• 2:20:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:39Speaker 02

  Obviously, because there's plenty of milk to go around over here.

• 2:20:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:43Pete Roberts?

  Well, we thought so.

• 2:20:44Jocko Willink?

  Do you think you'll go off the milk train ever?

• 2:20:46Speaker 02

  I don't see it happening.

• 2:20:48Jocko Willink?

  So Pete and I just had a conversation because we were in a rush to get down here to do this and we kinda. We, we kinda, we, we know, we, we collided, we collided at the chocolate milk, uh, station up in the cafeteria. And, and I was like, yeah, I don't have time to go down and make a milk right now. I'm just gonna drink this. He's like, yeah, there's something about chocolate milk. I would literally a hundred percent rather have milk peanut butter or milk chocolate mint or chocolate peanut butter. A hundred percent rather have that than, than, than chocolate milk.

• 2:21:18Speaker 02

  And regular chocolate milk.

• 2:21:19Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent. You can take, you can taste the nasty sugar corn syrup when you drink regular chocolate milk.

• 2:21:26Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems like, like when you get used to the milk, it's like it kinda brings it up more.

• 2:21:31Jocko Willink?

  You drink soda, you do.

• 2:21:31Speaker 02

  From time to time.

• 2:21:32Jocko Willink?

  Do you ever drink like Coca-Cola?

• 2:21:34Pete Roberts?

  Um, no, I don't drink Coca-Cola ever.

• 2:21:37Jocko Willink?

  What do you drink?

• 2:21:38Pete Roberts?

  The Fanta.

• 2:21:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, same thing.

• 2:21:40Jocko Willink?

  So you guys won't know, if you ever stopped drinking that, if you ever stopped drinking sodas, if you ever stopped drinking sodas and then you go back and have one, it tastes so syrupy and sweet. To me, that's what chocolate milk tastes like now. It's got this nasty and it's not, it's not, doesn't taste sweeter. It tastes more syrupy. Milk train. It's like if you drink like a Coke or a Fanta in your case like right after training. You see what I'm saying? Instead of like a water.

• 2:22:09Pete Roberts?

  And I got, I do gotta say like, I don't drink a lot of soda. At all.

• 2:22:13Jocko Willink?

  So does it taste bad when you taste it?

• 2:22:15Pete Roberts?

  No, no, there's something about Fanta.

• 2:22:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:22:19Pete Roberts?

  That you can't deny.

• 2:22:20Jocko Willink?

  The great one pineapple.

• 2:22:21Pete Roberts?

  Grape.

• 2:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:22Pete Roberts?

  It's not something about it, it's.

• 2:22:24Jocko Willink?

  Undesignated days.

• 2:22:26Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, so like, I'm not even kidding, once every two months.

• 2:22:30Jocko Willink?

  My son, my, we wouldn't, my kids never drink soda. And when my son was like six or seven years old, I brought him to the team when I was at Trade Hut. And we did like a Monster Mash, which is in the, in the team is a Monster Mash is when you set up just like obstacle course and then a run and then a boat carry and you set up all these crazy things and they'll just do all these weird stuff. And one of the stations was you had to drink a whole can of Coke through a straw. And then, and then you had to like do sprints over the berm or whatever. And so my son's doing all this stuff with me and he gets the Coke and he's like, looks at me like, can I drink it? And I was like, bro, this is the team's.

• 2:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Drink it quick. And so he like drinks it down and as he's drinking it, you can see him like his initial face is like, ooh. And then it just like, his face just goes all like, uh, and then he just looks like, turns like kind of pale and you could see he was feeling it wasn't feeling good. So he still doesn't drink Coke?

• 2:23:23Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, man, that's a good introduction. Did I tell you we've got a, a mulk movement in Farmington, Maine?

• 2:23:29Jocko Willink?

  What's the mulk movement?

• 2:23:30Pete Roberts?

  Well, you know, is we've got the kids that come in because my kids are in junior high and high school. They come in and then they bring their friends in.

• 2:23:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:23:37Pete Roberts?

  And every time they see me, they're just like, kind of look at me. And yeah, for mulk, they're like, and they'll be like, that mulk is so good. They're like, guys, pretty good, isn't it?

• 2:23:48Jocko Willink?

  They're hanging around down underneath the bridge drinking mulk.

• 2:23:51Pete Roberts?

  Exactly. What are you guys doing tonight? Going to the circle to drink mulk.

• 2:23:57Jocko Willink?

  A immersion camp 2019, we sold this one out, which was kind of new. There was actually one of the, one of the girls here, I was talking to her and she's all fired up. And her brother, she's like, my brother's so mad, he couldn't come. And I said, oh, why couldn't he come? She's like, it sold out. So can you imagine brother, sister? Sister gets to go, brother doesn't get to go, so.

• 2:24:19Pete Roberts?

  They didn't prioritize and execute soon enough.

• 2:24:21Jocko Willink?

  Are we gonna be able to get more people next year?

• 2:24:24Pete Roberts?

  Yes, you know, the agreement we had with the contract with the camp limited us to a certain amount. Uh, but talking with the owner of Camp Laurel, he's like, you, we can expand more for you guys to make that happen because they, they actually want us here because it's just, it's great for them. It's great for us. It's a, it's a, it's not like they're taking a care of a bunch of kids. Let's put it that way.

• 2:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Yeah, no, that's gotta be a bummer. Uh, so look for that at Origin, all those things, originmaine.com. That's where you can find all that cool origin stuff and support a little something called America while you're doing it. Get some.

• 2:24:58Speaker 02

  Yep. Also, Jaco has a store similar to Jiu Jitsu Operations Camp.

• 2:25:05Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:25:06Speaker 02

  For killers in operations.

• 2:25:08Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu Offense for Combat Killing Operations.

• 2:25:11Speaker 02

  Alright, there you go.

• 2:25:12Pete Roberts?

  Jiu Jitsu Offense for Combat Killing Operations.

• 2:25:14Speaker 02

  So in that same vein, Jaco has a store. He named it.

• 2:25:19Pete Roberts?

  Jacostore.com.

• 2:25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So it makes more sense now even to me and I've been in the game for a while. Anyway, Jaco Store, that's where you can get, if you want, these shirts that say, "Discipline equals freedom." Jaco's head on it says, "Good." You know, all this stuff. You want to represent, represent the game in that way.

• 2:25:37Pete Roberts?

  Awesome American-made rash guards.

• 2:25:39Jocko Willink?

  Rash guards as well, that keep it real.

• 2:25:41Pete Roberts?

  And here's the thing, people think you need a rash guard for Jiu Jitsu. Rash guards are for every lifestyle athlete on the planet. It's, it's whatever you're doing, whether it's biking, hiking, swimming, running, you need compression base layer.

• 2:25:58Jocko Willink?

  If you're John Donahue, you're straight up going to a wedding in that.

• 2:26:03Speaker 02

  That's how, man.

• 2:26:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:04Pete Roberts?

  He's in the game.

• 2:26:05Jocko Willink?

  He's in the game. You know what? Reminds me, let's send my brother John Donahue some rash guards.

• 2:26:10Pete Roberts?

  Let's do it.

• 2:26:11Jocko Willink?

  Let's do it. I'd love to make it happen. Get him in some, some, you know, give him some selection.

• 2:26:16Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:17Jocko Willink?

  To deal with a little bit.

• 2:26:17Speaker 02

  More selection, better than less. Also hoodies and hats, whatnot. Other stuff on there. Good stuff.

• 2:26:24Jocko Willink?

  Cool. On top of that, there's this podcast which you can subscribe to. You can also subscribe to Pete's podcast, which is called Hands in Daylight.

• 2:26:32Pete Roberts?

  Hands in Daylight. Yeah, it's, we're on episode thirty-nine.

• 2:26:36Jocko Willink?

  Talking about?

• 2:26:38Pete Roberts?

  America, work ethic, grit, jujitsu, all of it.

• 2:26:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:42Pete Roberts?

  I copied you.

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  It's all good, man. It's all good.

• 2:26:46Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, it's a little bit different, but it's like a fifth, under an hour and we talk a lot about business too and getting through tough patches and what we're dealing with.

• 2:26:55Jocko Willink?

  You don't talk about human atrocities for four hours at a time? Okay, so I guess you didn't.

• 2:26:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little bit different then, alright?

• 2:27:02Jocko Willink?

  And that's, and that's you with your co-host, Be Little. Alright.

• 2:27:10Jocko Willink?

  Hey, also the Warrior Kid Podcast. So that one for kids and you'll see when you listen to it, it's for everybody. Uncle Jake has lessons for everybody. Warrior Kid Podcast, Ask Uncle Jake, also some stories from Uncle Jake that explain how Uncle Jake got his values in life.

• 2:27:27Pete Roberts?

  I love the running one.

• 2:27:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:29Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, you're like looking around, you're just like, oh snap.

• 2:27:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's a good one. That's a good one. What else? YouTube channel? We got a YouTube channel and if you want to see Echo's legit videos.

• 2:27:46Speaker 02

  Cool with that.

• 2:27:47Jocko Willink?

  Then, then subscribe to the YouTube channel, enhanced videos, all that stuff. Get that done. YouTube.

• 2:27:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:27:54Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Podcast dot com, or no, Jocko Podcast channel.

• 2:27:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's easy to find.

• 2:27:59Pete Roberts?

  Echo, you, you have a gift, my friend. You are a true artist. Your, your work is freaking awesome.

• 2:28:06Speaker 02

  Thanks, bro.

• 2:28:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, well, that's a kind of subject to people's opinion.

• 2:28:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is.

• 2:28:10Pete Roberts?

  My opinion is very important.

• 2:28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, as, as, as another artist, hey, I value it big time.

• 2:28:15Pete Roberts?

  We've got, we've got crabs over here.

• 2:28:22Pete Roberts?

  You want to be in the group, you gotta pick a scab.

• 2:28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, bro.

• 2:28:25Pete Roberts?

  So we can be blood brothers.

• 2:28:26Speaker 02

  Actually, Jaco is surprisingly creative. Maybe not like in the brain kind of thing. Real simple, I get it. And that's cool.

• 2:28:33Pete Roberts?

  He's extremely creative.

• 2:28:34Speaker 02

  He designed a few, a few things though. Like you've designed things like you, he, I like actually drew it out.

• 2:28:41Pete Roberts?

  Really?

• 2:28:41Speaker 02

  Look like.

• 2:28:42Pete Roberts?

  Can you draw?

• 2:28:43Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 2:28:44Jocko Willink?

  You've never seen me draw.

• 2:28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, of course I have. What I drew for you, I drew on PowerPoint.

• 2:28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, with your left hand, bro. I did, I, I, I agree.

• 2:28:51Pete Roberts?

  You drew for me too, I just remembered.

• 2:28:53Jocko Willink?

  What did I draw for you?

• 2:28:55Pete Roberts?

  Draw for me?

• 2:28:56Jocko Willink?

  Some kind of packaging or something?

• 2:28:58Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, on the packaging, you're like, no, how about like this? And you like, you just drew it out, remember? You're like, that took me like two hours.

• 2:29:06Speaker 02

  But the concepts are like kinda solid though.

• 2:29:09Pete Roberts?

  No, no, no, it's good. He understands composition and color theory innately.

• 2:29:14Speaker 02

  Oh dang.

• 2:29:18Pete Roberts?

  No, he does. He understands those things innately. Cred. So you gotta give cred.

• 2:29:24Jocko Willink?

  Can you guys be quiet? I'm over here innately understanding color theory.

• 2:29:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna need some time by myself.

• 2:29:31Pete Roberts?

  Why do you think when I walked in, I grabbed this folder and I was like, that would make a good t-shirt or hat?

• 2:29:37Speaker 02

  Wait, why? Because you understand it or because he understands?

• 2:29:39Pete Roberts?

  Because whoever did that understands it.

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  I did that.

• 2:29:41Jocko Willink?

  The Jocko podcast.

• 2:29:43Speaker 02

  Well, actually, we both did that.

• 2:29:44Jocko Willink?

  The Jocko podcast symbol is mine. I made it.

• 2:29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:50Jocko Willink?

  And I remember, this is what's good about Echo. I go, well, are you gonna like do anything to it? And he goes, nope. Just leave it how it is. A box with your hand and a microphone. We're good.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it made sense. All simple. This I made. It's a, this is part of a sticker that he cut off and put it right there. So we both did that, see what I'm saying?

• 2:30:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:30:08Speaker 02

  He was like, hey, that sticker, that's not gonna fit on my folder. Let me cut it off. Boom, fits. See what I'm saying? And you want it to be a shirt. Pete Roberts, the artist.

• 2:30:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, composition.

• 2:30:17Speaker 02

  Credit one more time. Also, anyway.

• 2:30:20Pete Roberts?

  You like those words?

• 2:30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, they are good words. They're good. Anyway, also, if you're working out, you're on the path, you're working out, right? Pete, you working out?

• 2:30:29Pete Roberts?

  I, I have been, but I got off the working out train because I swelled up too much.

• 2:30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:35Pete Roberts?

  So now I just drink milk and train jiu jitsu. Mulked up too much. Yeah, I did. I did, seriously.

• 2:30:39Speaker 02

  You realize you can switch up the workout so you don't bulk up.

• 2:30:42Pete Roberts?

  You've been teaching me some things about that. We were talking the other day about.

• 2:30:46Speaker 02

  Metcons. Yeah, Metcons. So I was talking to Charlie too, Spaniard Charlie.

• 2:30:51Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:52Speaker 02

  So we're talking, we were talking about on it. Anyway, my kettlebells, all pretty much all my new workout stuff, like this switching up from bulking up, all of it, all on it stuff.

• 2:31:01Pete Roberts?

  A kettlebell's made cast iron. They made out of cast iron.

• 2:31:04Speaker 02

  If I'm not mistaken.

• 2:31:05Pete Roberts?

  Cast, yeah.

• 2:31:07Speaker 02

  But I got the cool ones, the primal bells and whatnot. That's the dope ones.

• 2:31:10Pete Roberts?

  That's a pretty cool process. Have you ever seen how that works?

• 2:31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:13Pete Roberts?

  We, we, when I was in college, we, myself and my friends built a foundry at the college. And what you did is you start to make those kettlebells, you actually start with a, a wax. It's wax. And you dip the wax, you, you make these little, uh, vents.

• 2:31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, like air holes.

• 2:31:31Pete Roberts?

  Yeah, air holes. And then you dip the wax in what's called slurry. And then you melt the wax out of the slurry and you fill it with molten metal. And it, and it cools and you crack it open.

• 2:31:41Speaker 02

  Molten.

• 2:31:42Pete Roberts?

  Molten metal. Oh, they said molken. Yeah. And then you end up, then you end up with something badass. So.

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, like they kill it. Yeah. And they balance them. It's like, yeah, it's a pro.

• 2:31:50Pete Roberts?

  It's pretty cool.

• 2:31:51Speaker 02

  It's one thing to be like, okay, here's a perfectly round ball, you know? And it's all balanced, you know, because you gotta swing that thing around. You can't be swinging it one way and then the other way you hurt yourself. Anyway, so they may, you know, they make the artistic ones, but they're still balanced. It's deep.

• 2:32:05Pete Roberts?

  Well, now I know I get it. It all comes together now.

• 2:32:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:08Pete Roberts?

  Plus you're artistic, so you need the artistic kettlebells.

• 2:32:12Speaker 02

  That's right. Absolutely right. Well, they have other cool stuff on there. Switch up your workout if you wanna bulk up. While you're moking up, like Pete Roberts, you wanna trim down and slim down?

• 2:32:25Speaker 02

  Anyway, you know what, you know what I'm saying? On it.com slash Jaco. Get you some good stuff, real good stuff.

• 2:32:32Pete Roberts?

  Also psychological warfare. If you need a little bit of. Little bit of an assist during a moment of weakness, you can get psychological warfare. On iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms worldwide. You can hear me talking about how to overcome your moment of weakness. Jaco White Tea. Available on Amazon, cans, tasty.

• 2:32:59Jocko Willink?

  Tea bags, dry, hot, cold, drink it however you want. The good thing about it is the reason, main reason why people want it is because you can deadlift eight thousand pounds as soon as you have one sip.

• 2:33:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can, you could probably move one of those looms.

• 2:33:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, we'll drink some white tea and get that done. Uh, books, weigh the warrior kid.

• 2:33:18Speaker 02

  Mark's mission.

• 2:33:19Jocko Willink?

  And Mark's mission. I've signed at this camp, a ton of both books. And it's so awesome to have parents say what they say about their kids after reading those books.

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:33Jocko Willink?

  It's the most impactful thing I've ever heard about for children. That's a bold statement. As far as kids, behavior changing in a positive direction, give it a try. Way the warrior kid. That's book one, Mark's mission, book two. Get it for some kids that you know. That was pretty cool. I've signed a lot of books here where like, oh, you know, I just signed one today. Hey, the kid's parents are splitting up. He's leaving, he's, you know, he's 10 years old. What, can you sign this for him? Like, yeah, I'll sign this thing for him all day long. Cause what's that kid going through? Get the kid a book. It's going to give them direction. It's going to show them the path. And it's a, it's a positive path.

• 2:34:13Jocko Willink?

  It's a path that everybody would want their kids to be on and would want any kid to be on. I don't care who you are, you're going to want your kids on this path. Um, extreme ownership, we talked about it a bunch today. You know, Pete, Pete talked about how, you know, you've used it. I think you gave great examples and you've also seen dichotomy of leadership. Dichotomy, dichotomy of leadership, available for preorder right now. If you want first edition.

• 2:34:42Speaker 02

  Do you know, I was thinking about like extreme ownership, the book, and then dichotomy of leadership, the book, you know what that's like? It's like, you ever watched the movie major league? You ever watched that movie?

• 2:34:51Jocko Willink?

  No, I think I have.

• 2:34:53Speaker 02

  Charlie Sheen, Wesley Snipes, they go on, you know, Cleveland Indians. Mm hmm. Anyway.

• 2:34:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I have.

• 2:34:59Speaker 02

  So this is what happened. Charlie Sheen, he comes out of jail, whatever. It's like a, you know, ragtag group of guys, they, they put together a protein, baseball.

• 2:35:06Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:35:07Speaker 02

  Cleveland Indians. Charlie Sheen comes in, he has the fastest fastball ever. But his control, like he, you know.

• 2:35:15Jocko Willink?

  He's ripping them in the shoulders and the head.

• 2:35:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it turns out he, he, he just needs glasses, whatever. But, so he had all this speed and power.

• 2:35:25Speaker 02

  But his control hasn't come around. That's what extreme ownership is, but you get the dichotomy of leadership. That's the control. See what I'm saying? So you get extreme ownership, you got the power now. But you need the control too. That's the dichotomy of leadership. Tune it in. See what I'm saying?

• 2:35:38Jocko Willink?

  That may have been the most sensible thing I've heard. Echo said with reference to a movie.

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:35:43Jocko Willink?

  Nicely done. I'll give it to you.

• 2:35:44Pete Roberts?

  Good metaphor. You, you really, I just, I don't, and here's the thing. I'm not going to say you can't own one without the other. What I'm going to say is this.

• 2:35:56Pete Roberts?

  If you don't own one without the other, you're doing yourself a disservice. Because there, there are two tools that work together. You know, I mean, you, you need both tools.

• 2:36:10Pete Roberts?

  Or you're not going to fully, you know, become who you want to become as a leader. So get the two tools. That's it. It's easy.

• 2:36:17Jocko Willink?

  Agree. Agree. Plus you want to control that fastball.

• 2:36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. Power is good, but power and control?

• 2:36:24Jocko Willink?

  Power and control. Hey, speaking of leadership. I got a leadership consulting company. It's called Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. We do it all day, every day. Someone in the world, someone's got Echelon Front in their company, working, aligning leadership. It's me. It's Leif, JP Denell, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, Mike Sorelli.

• 2:36:49Jocko Willink?

  Echelonfront.com. Come and get it. Also, we got the muster. The next muster is muster 006 in San Francisco. October 17th and 18th. They've all sold out. The Immersions Camp sold out. If you want to come, register at extremeownership.com. You've been to the muster.

• 2:37:06Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Sum it up.

• 2:37:07Pete Roberts?

  Phenomenal. Sum it up.

• 2:37:10Pete Roberts?

  Open eyes and open ears and I took my team to the muster. And it blew my expectations, first of all, because I needed them to get on the same path I was on. And we used it as an excuse to display what we were doing, but we, so we went there for one reason and we left with a completely, for a different, completely different reason. And my father-in-law, Joe, came also, and he took those, those skills. He's, he's, he's the town road commissioner. He took those skills he learned and he's been dealing with these problems for 20 years. And those problems he's been dealing with for 20 years was him and he solved those problems and he's a different person.

• 2:37:55Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 2:37:56Pete Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:58Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. Yeah. That's a great, and a lot of people do that. A lot of people come to the muster with their teams. They get everyone aligned in one shot and it's solid. And then, once you leave, you're not on your own, struggling to keep that mindset. You got other people backing you up and reinforcing you. So that's muster 006. Also, we got roll call 001, September 21st in Dallas, Texas. If you want to come to that, you, that, of course, it's going to sell out too. We're getting close. That is for uniform personnel. So military law enforcement, border patrol, firefighters, paramedics, first responders, everywhere.

• 2:38:36Jocko Willink?

  Come to that again, registered extremeownership.com. And now we have EF Overwatch where we are taking companies that need leaders and we're taking the associates and comrades that we had in special operations and in combat aviation. And we are bringing those leaders into the civilian sector. So if you are either a spec ops, combat aviation person that is looking for work after you leave the military or your company that needs leadership, go to efoverwatch.com. And until we see you on the mats of justice, or at the muster, or at the roll call, or at the immersion camp in 2019, if you want to continue

• 2:39:22Jocko Willink?

  to roll with us, virtually, we're on the interwebs.

• 2:39:27Jocko Willink?

  Pete is at Origin BJJ on Twitter. He's at Origin USA on Instagram and he's at Origin on that facey double watchy.

• 2:39:42Speaker 02

  That's a face for a word.

• 2:39:43Jocko Willink?

  And on those platforms Echo is Echo Charles and I am at Jaco Mark Echo. Anything else, brother?

• 2:39:50Speaker 02

  Nothing. Super fun to have you on again.

• 2:39:53Pete Roberts?

  Thank you both. I was, you know, a little bit nervous about coming on today, but I'm glad I did and that you forced me to. I really appreciate you inviting me back on. It means a lot. And man, it's just awesome, awesome to be able to share what we're doing with the masses and have you here at camp and, you know, helping out to build this movement.

• 2:40:16Jocko Willink?

  Stoked to be here and thanks for coming on and I'm sure you're going to be on again in due course, next year at a minimum. And okay, so lastly, obviously, thanks, everyone in the military out there making sacrifices every day to literally keep us free. And thanks to police, law enforcement, correctional officers, firefighters, border patrol, paramedics, and all other first responders here at home. Thanks for your sacrifices to keep us safe. And everyone else out there.

• 2:40:51Jocko Willink?

  You know, someone at the immersion camp

• 2:40:55Jocko Willink?

  said that jujitsu could seem frustrating because you try things and they just don't work and then you practice and you drill and you try them again and the things don't work. And it said, the person just said that jujitsu can seem so frustrating. And I said, jujitsu just doesn't seem frustrating.

• 2:41:15Jocko Willink?

  It is frustrating.

• 2:41:18Jocko Willink?

  It is frustrating. It's a grind. It's hard. It's overwhelming. It's infuriating. It's irritating and it can also be very disappointing. And in all those ways, jujitsu is just like life.

• 2:41:37Jocko Willink?

  Life is gonna be hard. It's gonna be frustrating. It's gonna be disappointing. It's gonna be overwhelming. But like those settlers in New England, you keep at it. And you keep working and you keep driving and pushing and grinding. And then you get a little something. You see a little bit of light and you make a little bit of progress. And then you dig in and you do it again. And jujitsu isn't easy and neither is life. And that is what makes them both so worth doing with everything you've got.

• 2:42:21Jocko Willink?

  So get out of bed. Shut off the TV. Impose your will on the world. And when you get beat down by the world, get back up again. And get after it. And until next time, this is Pete Roberts and Echo and Jaco. Out.