140: "If", by Rudyard Kipling: Analyzed. Not Liking to Fight. Personal Intelligence. Giving Tactful Feedback.

0:00:00 - Opening: "If", by Rudyard Kipling. 1:06:26 - Are you less of a man if you don't like to fight? 1:15:37 - Personal intelligence VS Physical Prowess. 1:19:33 - How to give tactful criticism. 1:28:06 - Best way to combine striking and grappling. 1:40:51 - How to deal when someone is fired and you disagree with that decision. 1:48:16 - Is it always bad to be a little unapproachable? 1:50:34 - What to do if you're ever BROKEN. 1:54:50 - Support. 2:27:18 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 140 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you. If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too. If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, or being lied about, don't deal in lies, or being hated, don't give way to hating, and yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  If you can dream and not make dreams your master. If you can think and not make thoughts your aim. If you can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same. If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to broken and stoop and build them up with worn out tools.

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss, and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew to serve your turn long after they are gone. And so, hold on when there is nothing in you, except the will which says to them, "Hold on."

• 1:59Jocko Willink?

  If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, or walk with kings nor lose the common touch, if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, if all men count with you but none too much.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run, yours is the earth and everything that's in it. And, which is more, you'll be a man, my son.

• 2:37Jocko Willink?

  And that, of course, is the classic poem, which is called "If", and it's by Rudyard Kipling. And, of course, we have covered some of his less, I guess, famous, his less famous poems on this podcast. We covered infantry columns, which a lot of people don't know the name infantry columns, but that's the poem that talks about boots, boots, boots. Moving up and down. Yeah, that one. We read "The Young British Soldier", which is about Afghanistan. We read a bit of Tommy.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  And, of course, Kipling was an incredible writer. And he talked a lot about war, talked a lot about being a man, and his own son, his one son, John, was killed in World War I at the Battle of Lus. And...

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  These are great poems. And I recently read a poem... Called the Mental Cases by Wilford Owen. And when we got done with that podcast, I actually said, I should have read it again. And I didn't. I said, Hey, go back to the beginning and listen to it again. But I should have actually picked it apart a little bit because it's kind of like what I said about Shakespeare when we did Henry V. And I said, you can't get frustrated with Shakespeare. You can't think that you're just gonna read Shakespeare and just get it. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way. There's more to it than that. There's more depth there. There's words you might not know. There's references that might not be obvious. There's,

• 4:25Jocko Willink?

  and it's, it's the same thing when you look at poems like this. There's more to them than you can get with just like reading it. Right? There's, there's layers. That's what we're talking about. So the, the poem that I just read, if is, like I said, it's a classic. It's read often. It should be read, but there's, and, and that's part of the reason why I didn't cover it for a long time, because I kind of thought everyone just knew it. That everyone, oh yeah, everyone knows that. Everyone knows that poem. Everyone's read that poem. But it's actually not true. Talked to a lot of people. And I'd say, oh yeah, what's like if? And they say, oh, what's that? So in order to sort of solve that problem, we covered on the podcast, and now people will

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  hear this poem and learn from it. And I want to spend a little bit of time breaking it down because there's all kinds of important lessons in it that are really solid, really solid guidance. And then when we understand it, then I'll go back and read it again. The way it's supposed to hit you when you know what's going on. So breaking it down a little bit. There's, and there's themes in this that we've heard, I've talked about, and they're just consistent through time. So here it starts off, if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs

• 5:53Jocko Willink?

  and blaming it on you. This one's pretty self-explanatory. Keep your head. Don't lose your temper.

• 6:00Jocko Willink?

  Stifle your emotions as I once said on this podcast. And it's saying, especially when everyone else around you is not only losing their temper, but on top of that, they're blaming you. This is a little bit of ownership here. This is a little bit of extreme ownership. And I've talked about that. When someone blames you for something, you know what you do? You say, yeah, you're right. It is my fault. This is what I'm gonna do to fix it. You pathetic, you don't say that part. You keep that to yourself. When, when there's a problem and people are blaming it on you, own it. Own it. And don't lose your temper. Stifle your emotions. Next line. If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too. There's a little dichotomy here, right?

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be confident, of course, right? Trust yourself. That's what it means. Believe in yourself. Even when other people are doubting you, you gotta trust that you're doing the right thing. You gotta trust that you're capable. You gotta trust that you can make this happen. That's what it means to trust yourself when all men doubt you. But there's a dichotomy here, and this is so important because that, because what that means, what that one line alone could lead to is, hey, I'm just gonna be overconfident, right? I'm confident. Hey, I'm right. Everyone else is wrong. You don't get it. That's not what's being said here, because there's a but. That's the dichotomy part. The but is the dichotomy part.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  Because while you gotta believe in yourself, yes. And at the same time, you also have to make allowance for their doubts. That means you have to understand that you might have some issues. You might not be perfect. You might be wrong. You might not be as smart, or as talented, or as squared away as you think you are. And your idea that you came up with might not be the best one. So yes, you gotta have confidence, even when people are doubting you, but you gotta remember that they could be doubting you for a good reason. You could be wrong. Always have that in the back of your head. That's the dichotomy. Humble, confident, but humble. That's what we're talking about. Next line.

• 8:07Jocko Willink?

  If you can wait and not be tired by waiting.

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  Patience. That's about patience. I think I've told this, have I told the story about being on a ship and waiting for chow?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Not that I can remember.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so. I was on my first deployment as a SEAL on a ship in the Navy. We're overseas, we're, we're spending a lot of time at sea. And to eat food, which was, I'm not gonna say it was scarce. But. They feed you three times a day and, and all the type of ship I was on, an amphibious ship, there's uh several hundred Marines onboard. Obviously, there's the sailors that run the ship, there's SEALs, we're, you know, an eighteen man SEAL platoon on there. But everyone's gotta be fed. When it's chow time. And so everyone would go line up for chow. You get in line and the line would be long and depending on how hungry you are, maybe you wanna get up there a little early. Anyways, to make a long story short.

• 9:08Jocko Willink?

  So we get in line and whatever, whatever reason. They got this rule that you're not allowed to lean on the bulkhead. You know what a bulkhead is?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  In a plane, I do.

• 9:19Jocko Willink?

  In a plane, what is it?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  That front part.

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a front part. You know, it's a wall. Basically on a ship or an aircraft, it's a wall, it's a bulkhead. So for whatever reason. In the Navy. Standing in the chow line, you're not supposed to lean on the bulkhead. So imagine this, you're gonna be standing there for, you're standing three inches from a wall, but you're not supposed to lean on it. Now, this isn't a three minute stand. This is half an hour, this is forty minutes waiting for the chow to open up and then serve everybody. And I remember I learned something about patience. Because. Then you get these guys that.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, the people that they have a little bit of authority. And they're gonna use it.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  And if given the opportunity, they will abuse it. They're gonna take it to the next level.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  So there'd be some guys, not all of them. I was always, my goal to make friends with anybody that had anything to do with feeding us on a ship, I wanted to be their bro. Because then you get a couple of extra chicken nuggets, you know, maybe you get an extra scoop full of ravioli. Which is, which is, which is important, important. Yeah. Big time, especially when you're trying to pack on the mass, right? So I tried to be friends with all those people, but some of those guys, they didn't care about friends, right? They had that authority. And one, this one guy. I remember he had the authority. It was, he was in charge of making sure that line was, you know.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  Maintained discipline in the line. That was his deal. He had a badge of some kind. I want to say he was a master of arms, which is a, a, a job in the Navy. I think he, this guy was actually a master of arms. So he had some kind of badge, right? So that takes that authority attitude up one, maybe two notches, right? He's coming at you.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  So, so I'm standing in line one day and I'm leaning on the bulkhead. Am I being a little bit lazy? Sure. I'm, I'm telling you, it's a long deployment, right? I'm leaning on the bulkhead. He comes over, hey, no leaning on the bulkhead. And you know what I did?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  What?

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  Got off the bulkhead. I just stood up straight, didn't get mad, didn't get angry. He's doing his job, not supposed to lean on the bulkhead. Just normal face. Yep. Okay. Was I a broken man? Was I a broken man? Did my, did my will break? I don't think so. What I did was I accepted. I was able to wait and, and not be tired by waiting. So be patient. This, this the moral.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:48Jocko Willink?

  Of that line.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Well, technically you weren't able to wait without getting tired because you leaned on the bulkhead.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  You got corrected.

• 11:55Jocko Willink?

  I got corrected and then I got untired.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Gotcha. Yeah, yeah.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next line, or being lied about, don't deal in lies.

• 12:06Jocko Willink?

  People are gonna lie about you.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  Tell the truth. Tell the truth about what's going on.

• 12:14Jocko Willink?

  Getting caught in the web of lies, not fun.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  Not fun. And you see, you see it happen with people. I'm trying to think, you remember when you were a little kid and you'd think you'd get away with some little web of lies?

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, like, yeah, yeah.

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  Or you see your kids do it.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  They, they tell a little lie about something and the web just encapsulates them. But adults do that too. You know, you see that happen. You see that happen with, uh, in politics.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, I never did this, you know what I mean? And then they have video, they have audio and it's just, if, if that person would have said, hey, this is what I did. This is what I did. I'm sorry. It's a bad mistake. I, I throw myself to the judgment of the people, right? Okay, fair enough. But instead they make up some lie about, I'm not, I'm not, I've never seen that woman before in my life.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really? We have a video of you.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:04Jocko Willink?

  Apparently quite acquainted with as a woman.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:07Jocko Willink?

  Or whatever. So yeah, don't get in the the web of lies. It's not gonna help you. Next line. Or being hated. Don't give way to hating. Now, what's interesting about this is we actually have a name for these people now, right? Haters.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Haters.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  That's a that's a new word. I don't think there was such a thing as haters. When I was a kid, there was no such thing as haters.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  There was. If someone that didn't like you, you wouldn't say that's person's a hater.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  No, it wasn't a thing.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Well, there's a added like sprinkled in element when you say hater. Haters typically is like.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  Someone that hates everybody.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  No, someone who hates.

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  Everything.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  No, it's when there's an element of jealousy in there. That's what that's what a hater is.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so I actually nailed this then. Actually, so as I was thinking about this, that's kind of what I thought. Some people aren't gonna like you. For whatever reason, but oftentimes the reason isn't you. It's actually them, right?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a hater.

• 14:03Jocko Willink?

  It's them. It's their, they hate your success, they hate your happiness, they hate their, they hate the fact that you got. Whatever it is that they want, right? That's jealousy. So, yeah, some people are going to get, you know, they're gonna be haters.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  And so the recommendation here is. Don't, don't. Don't, don't give it back to them.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:31Jocko Willink?

  There's a, you ever heard that the opposite of love isn't hate? The opposite of love is indifference?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Jocko Willink?

  So the opposite of hate. Is indifference too, right? Yeah, whatever.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 14:43Jocko Willink?

  That's sort of my recommended recommended course of action. Someone that hates the fact that you're winning. I kind of feel sorry for him, right? But.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  You gotta move past that, I guess.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you get by the emotional part when someone's hating on you.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do kind of feel, I mean, you can, depends on who you are, I guess, but you can kind of feel sorry for him because it's like, it's kind of a lonely, like.

• 15:13Jocko Willink?

  Actually, I think, I think when I say I feel sorry for him, I think that's almost like a little bit of a, that's a little bit of ego of mine too, of like a little dig, like, like I feel sorry for that person.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  Right. It's a defense mechanism of my own, I think. You know what I mean? It's kind of a, it's kind of a back, it's a backhanded insult, right? You know, oh, you know, Echo said this about you, you know, I actually feel sorry for him.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:36Jocko Willink?

  It's almost like that guy's so low. So there's, I think there's a little bit of ego there from my point when I say something like that.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 15:42Jocko Willink?

  So that's why I think indifference is might maybe the better step. Like, hey, whatever, man. Hey, some people are gonna like me, some people, I'm good with it. We're moving on over here.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  And there's a, there's a culture of embracing that too. You know how people will be like, hey, if you're, if you don't have haters, you're doing something wrong or something like that. Like they'll say that kind of stuff.

• 16:00Jocko Willink?

  To me, you know how you talk about how someone says, hey, that's just the way I am. That's my personality.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:04Jocko Willink?

  To me, that is brushing up against it, right?

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know, if some people, some people are gonna hate me, that's the way it is. It's like, no, actually.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:13Jocko Willink?

  Let's think about, at least let's account for it a little bit. Let's, let's figure out, you know, maybe why.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Actually, sometime, I mean, this is kind of a smaller deal than even warrants me talking about it, but.

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  Something tells me you're gonna do it anyways.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do it anyway. I mean, in the spirit of trying to understand the nature of haters and.

• 16:35Jocko Willink?

  We're actually talking on a podcast right now about the nature of haters.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Well, some would say, hey, if you don't have haters, you're doing something wrong, meaning you're not doing something big enough for the jealous people in the world to be jealous of.

• 16:49Jocko Willink?

  This is, this is like a whole, this is a whole area that we just don't want to deal with, right? I mean, seriously, right? This is like, this is like the area that we're just not.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  That, that's why I think that's what's good, what the statement here. Don't being hated, don't give way to hating. Yeah. Indifferent, move on, let's not worry about it. Yeah. And next line. Or analyze it. Yeah. All right, next. And yet, don't look too good, nor talk too wise. Don't look too good, nor talk too wise. So this is, this is important because this is a little bit of dichotomy too of hey, don't give way to hating, don't deal in lies, but at the same time saying, don't look too good or talk too wise. So

• 17:36Jocko Willink?

  you gotta keep it real, basically, and you don't want to be a know it all. You don't want to talk down to people. You don't want to be the, the, the person that comes across like, oh, I would, I'm virtuous. I'm more virtuous than you. That's what that line is, right? Don't try and look too good, like you would never do anything wrong. It's like, oh, that guy got in trouble. That guy got caught in a web of lies instead of, you know, jump. It's like, oh, hey, you know what? He made a mistake. Hope, good luck to him. I hope he can figure it out. Hope he finds the right path out of his situation. Instead of you're talking like, oh, I'm, that would never happen to me because I'm virtuous. Yeah. Or talk too wise, which is, you know, I know everything, right? Yeah. I think that's Yeah.

• 18:21Jocko Willink?

  People that are trying to come across. You know, remember when we were on with Captain Charlie Plum and Jim Kunkel? And they were trying to drag me into the, being like them. They're, you know, like, oh, you know, we're warriors, warriors like you, Jaco. And I was like, no, guys. Oh, yeah. Like you guys are totally like, not just, not just like more heroic than me, but on top of that, better people. Like I'm like a rat running around compared to those guys. And, and so, yeah.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  I'm not ever trying to be, you know, a guy that's saying, oh yeah, well, I'm, I'm, I'm virtuous and you're not. No. Hey, man, we're all struggling.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Could this mean to, you know, it says, don't look too good, nor too what, like, um, you know, okay, this is the concept where, you know, when people make speeches or they'll, they'll have some sales pitch or something and they'll want every word to be perfect. But then when a, when a sales pitch is like super perfect, it doesn't connect as well as if it's just a person talking normal to you, you know, saying, um, and all this, um, just that idea, you know, like, so if someone's focusing so hard on being like perfect in every way and like knowing every single possible thing and just not showing any flaws, like focusing on it, maybe that's a mistake because they kind of create a disconnect.

• 19:47Jocko Willink?

  I actually, I don't think that's what this is talking about, but I think it is correct. So I'll give you the example. From my perspective, one of the reasons that podcasts right now do really well is because they're normal people talking like normal people. And I think that if, if pod, and, and there are podcasts out there that are way polished and everything. And I don't like to listen to those podcasts that are all polished, right? I don't, there's very few, actually, I can't think of any, uh, any of the podcasts that I actually like are, are polished to that nth degree, right? Cause that's when you're talking about, you know, a highly produced with the background music and the, all that stuff. Like those podcasts, I, I don't, I don't like those as much.

• 20:31Jocko Willink?

  I don't like those, but, and even when you talk about the produced podcast, like Hardcore History, he's still talking, you know, he's, he's still talking. I mean, obviously Joe Rogan, obviously Tim Ferriss, uh, even Martyr Made, right? Martyr Made, he's, he's, he's talking, right? He's not just making things happen. So I think there's something to that. There's something to the fact that we're not talking about doing everything perfect, for sure.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:56Jocko Willink?

  For sure. Yeah, agree.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:00Jocko Willink?

  I think if if this podcast, what would this podcast would be sound like? It'd be like, welcome to, welcome to the Jocko podcast. This is episode 140. We're here to talk to you today about Richard Kipling. He was born in and just one of those. Who wants to listen to that?

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I do. Yeah, the, if it sounds like, well, because, because I think anyway, and it has a lot to do with like what you're used to, you know, where like if you're used to like a polished presentation and then all of a sudden it's not polished. It's like, oh, he kind of fumbled through that.

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's a difference between not polished and I have also heard podcasts that are not prepared or not professional, right?

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 21:38Jocko Willink?

  That's another, the other end of the spectrum and you can, there's a dichotomy.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:42Jocko Willink?

  Because you can go too far. Sometimes I think people just, they think, well, Joe Rogan, he just presses record and talks.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:48Jocko Willink?

  And they think that that's just what that is. Oh, I can do that.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:51Jocko Willink?

  I'll just press record and I'll talk with this other guy. And then you, then you listen to them and you think there's a reason why Joe Rogan is so popular.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 21:59Jocko Willink?

  The reason is Joe Rogan is so popular is because even when he's just conversing, he's got a skill set that he was probably born with and then he honed it as a comedian and then he honed it as an actor, then he honed it as a, as a announcer for the UFC. And then he started this podcast and so he was already good at it. And then he's done 1500 podcasts that are two, three and four hours long. So guess what? You get good at figuring out, you listen to yourself and go, oh, that didn't sound good. And so, so there's a big difference. Yes, there's podcasts that people just think they're going to hit record and just talk and it's going to be super cool. Dichotomy, not cool.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  Hard to listen to. Some of those are hard to listen to. Got to gut through them. So check. All right. Next line. If you can dream and not make dreams your master. That one's

• 22:52Jocko Willink?

  pretty, pretty, that's a pretty awesome line, right? That's a pretty awesome line and there's, it's a dichotomy. Yes, dream, but don't make them your master.

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  Don't make dreams your, live in reality, right?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Okay, gotcha.

• 23:03Jocko Willink?

  Live in reality, not in the world of dreams. If your dreams are your master, what are you actually doing?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Daydreaming all day.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  Daydreaming all day. You gotta make something happen.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:12Jocko Willink?

  That's what's got to go down. Next, very similar. If you can think

• 23:18Jocko Willink?

  and not make thoughts your aim. So yes, of course, think.

• 23:24Jocko Willink?

  But don't make your goal to sit around and think, and I think in my mind, when I hear this, maybe I'm my own personal biases coming into it. This seems like a little shot at philosophers and academics, right? That sit around all day and what they're doing is their thinking. That's what they do. Little shot at those guys. Cause don't make thoughts your aim.

• 23:49Jocko Willink?

  You want to actually go and do things. You want to make things happen. You want to live. There's a difference there.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's actually, that's like a, cause you know how like, I feel like you're kind of the example of that. Like when I start saying, whether it be on this thing or, or even in real life where I'll start explaining something. Cause I'll be super interested in like how this thing works and hey, did you see what happened there? And then your attitude has always been like, yeah, okay. Like, okay.

• 24:17Jocko Willink?

  Give me an example. And what do you mean by real life?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  The outside of recording. So all like analyze, like if someone's like, if I were to talk about haters, like I could analyze that.

• 24:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you can go deep. That's a separate podcast. Echo Charles podcast. This is Echo Charles podcast.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Just the dynamics of like, you know what people.

• 24:36Jocko Willink?

  The dynamics of haters. Episode one.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  How people.

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  That might be a whole series, bro.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. You never know. But you'll be like, all right, you know, okay, we understand. Is you, you do it for more like, hey, we're going to understand so we can take action or you know, whatever. I'll, I'll just explain the understanding because it's fun to explain the understanding.

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm looking for application of that knowledge into usually leadership situations.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then you'll, it seems like, like you'll dig into like, understanding it like as deep as you have to, to take action and that's it. No deeper.

• 25:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, I'm not going to sit around and meditate.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  That's what it seems like you're trying to avoid. Yeah.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  And also I think that the, the understanding of the broad concept is more important than the, than the minutia.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  You got to understand the details. Yes. But you want to understand the broad concept and then you can move forward and you know what you're dealing with.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then then an academic type as we, as the example, as your example kind of talks about, like they'll, their kind of goal is, is the thought is to analyze and oh, see how this works. And that's the whole goal. Their goal is never really to take action. Someone else can take action, but their, their goal is the thought of it. That's what it seems like.

• 25:47Jocko Willink?

  I think that's one thing that Dan Carlin from Hardcore History does is he. So he like a lot of times I'm comparing what I'm reading about in historical situations to what I've either been through myself or

• 26:04Jocko Willink?

  or other books that I've read, other situations I know about. Dan Carlin does one book to another book or one time to another time. But then the other thing that he does is he takes it to us. Like he'll, he'll say, imagine if you were, imagine if America right now elected a person like he, so he brings it into like real time.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:24Jocko Willink?

  That's his, that's his. To me, that's what makes, that's part of what makes, there's a lot of things that make his podcast excellent, but that's one of the things that makes it very engaging is he brings it to, imagine if this happened.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 26:36Jocko Willink?

  Today.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  Imagine if the Germans attack, you know, he just brings it to today. So it makes you think about it.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  And he compares it to other time periods. So there's some similarities there, but his thoughts aren't his aims.

• 26:50Jocko Willink?

  I don't think.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I wouldn't even say.

• 26:52Jocko Willink?

  I think, I think when I just said that, I think he takes the thoughts and applies them to current times, right? That's what makes it interesting.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:59Jocko Willink?

  Or one of, again, one of the things that makes it interesting.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I wouldn't even say the thoughts being your aims is necessarily a bad thing across the board. Um, I think with, you know, obviously his approach it is, but you know, you know, the person who's just kind of gets a huge payoff in figuring out how things work and that's sort of it, you know, like it.

• 27:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  And it's kind of like, hey, if I, I'm a, you know, I'm going to figure out how this, I don't know, this engine motor works. It's up to the engine builder to build more engines or to build a better engine or whatever.

• 27:32Jocko Willink?

  Know how it works?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're just really interested in how things work, you know?

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Is it possible to be super? You know, like people that want to understand jujitsu, but they don't want to do it? Want to learn moves but they don't want to roll?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Well, there is that for sure. Oh, yeah, there is that. And I mean, depending on who you are, obviously, that philosophy won't kind of jive with you with your whole thing. Um, but yeah, I could see how that could be if someone's like, yeah, like, I don't know, someone who's not into necessarily the physical part of it as much as the mental part and maybe like to watch it.

• 28:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I suppose some guys that can't train hard anymore because whatever they got injured or whatever. And they still are into it.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Or these coaches that like maybe weren't that good or something, but they like, they know. And they're like the best coaches, you know, that kind of person.

• 28:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, John Donahue, he doesn't have any world championships under his belt, I don't think.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, but.

• 28:25Jocko Willink?

  Name with Greg Jackson. I don't think Greg Jackson, Greg Jackson's never even fought MMA, I don't think, not one time.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the best coaches out there.

• 28:32Jocko Willink?

  Coaches ever.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so you get that kind of person.

• 28:35Jocko Willink?

  But would he be saying that he made his thoughts his aims? No, because he put those, he applied them.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Well, then again.

• 28:41Jocko Willink?

  Swing in a mess.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  But take those academics, though. See what I'm saying? Like an academic type person, maybe they're a professor or something. They they teach about business or sales. They don't own a business, they're a professor, but they teach about business, all this stuff. So that's kind of, it's kind of their, their thoughts are their aims is kind of like that's their action. That's, that's they're putting their thoughts into action.

• 28:59Jocko Willink?

  So I guess it's less of a shot than maybe I read it as originally. Against philosophers and academics. All right, well, no, I think you're right. I think you're right. All right, next. If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same, what a line that is.

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  Triumph and disasters, and he calls them both imposters. He calls both triumph and disaster, calls them both imposters. Why is that? Because they are. Because they are, because neither triumph or disaster is an end all or be all, neither of them. They feel like it at the time when you raise your hands and you get the victory. You feel like that is a be all and all, but as Patton said.

• 29:52Jocko Willink?

  All glorious fleeting, right? That triumph is gonna fade. Triumph isn't an eternal victory. It's an impostor of one. And this is what's important. And this is the one that's harder for people to overcome is that disaster is the same way. Some things happen to us and it seems like it's the end of the world.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  But it's not. Disaster is also an impostor. This, you know what this happens to? This happens to teenage kids in their little relationships, right? Right? Teenage kids and their, and their relationships. They break up and they think it's the end of the world. And if they only knew that in three years, they wouldn't even remember that person's name. They wouldn't even remember that person. You could never tell them that. You can't ever, you couldn't convince them in a million years to that, that, that in three years, they will not remember that person's name. Not even close. Not even close. You cannot, isn't the mind a crazy thing?

• 30:56Jocko Willink?

  You both know this factually. The girlfriend that you had when you were 14 years old, at that time, there was no way that you were ever gonna think about another girl. That was the one. You don't, right now, you don't know what her name was. You barely remember what she looks like. Come on. But that's what he's saying. That when that girl breaks up with you or guy, if you're, if you're a girl and the guy that broke your heart, you're not even gonna remember his name. And you know what he's doing now? Not much. Not much. Don't worry about that, dude. I don't know, maybe. Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Maybe he doesn't goof.

• 31:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, my point is, most likely, these disasters that you have, and then, you know, it's easy, that's an easy one, but you know, your business has a big issue. Oh, it's gonna, man, this, within six months of opening Victory MMA.

• 31:54Jocko Willink?

  The roof collapsed. Do you remember that? Hmm. The, the, a drunk driver hit a fire hydrant out in front of the building. The fire hydrant actually broke off and the pipes just started squirting. I mean, how big around is a, is a fire hydrant? It's a, it's a twelve inch water or something. A twelve inch water line started spraying up and onto the top roof of the building, which is no big deal because you know roofs are, they're meant to take water. Well, what happened was the little drains, because it's a flat roof, the little drains up there. Since it doesn't rain a lot in California, they had debris and they filled up. The drains filled up and then the next thing you know, the roof just filled with water inside the parapet wall and the roof collapsed. That was in six months of, of opening up.

• 32:38Jocko Willink?

  We, I think we had just started making money. Boom. We got no, we got half the building is gone. The air conditioners from the second floor, from the roof are on the bottom floor of the building. In the mixed martial arts area. I mean, it was bad. But you know what? It seemed like a big disaster. Guess what? Get it, get it taken care of. It's like, move on. Guess what? The gym's still ten years old, still going strong. So these bad things are going to happen. These disasters are going to happen. But they're not permanent. They're not the be all end all. They're not the end of the world. And the victories, the triumphs are the same thing. They're not going to last. Don't rest on your laurels. Stay centered. So. Stay balanced.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  So did you guys end up clearing out the drains or, or what? The drains? Yeah, we cleared them out. Good idea. Day late and a dollar short. Hmm. Next.

• 33:32Jocko Willink?

  If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools. So you go out and you tell the truth, right? And then the truth that you tell gets

• 33:46Jocko Willink?

  twisted around by some.

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  Knave, which is an unscrupulous person. It's a dishonest person, right? Let's bring that word back.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 33:58Jocko Willink?

  Let's bring it back.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Freaking knaves.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna twist your words and you're gonna have to bear it. And the reason that, this is what I think is interesting, the reason that you have to bear it is because if you get drawn into it, it's a trap. It's a trap. That you're gonna get drawn into. If you start dealing with what? If you start going in and trying to trying to untwist this, this lies that have been told about you, it's a trap. That's what he said. You, you, it's almost like a battle you can't win and by entering the battlefield, you're gonna get wounded.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so what is this like some, you know how like someone will say something, I don't know? And it'll like involve race. Won't be racist, but it'll like involve race because that's how the explanation pans out, you know? On TV or something and then someone else will come in and be like, oh my gosh, this person's racist because look what he said and maybe they'll play like, you know, the end part of the tape only or the beginning only or something like that. And then they'll, someone else will be like, hey, you know, this interview, uh, you know, they'll ask this question, hey, did you say this? And they'll be like, well, yeah, I said that, oh, oh, and then someone else will come and be like, look, he even admitted he said this thing, but then, you know, and then so that it just keeps getting twisted and twisted and twisted. It's like that. And then the more you explain it, the more you say, wait, wait, you're saying you didn't say this?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  I have no idea. Okay. Well, you did or you didn't kind of, you know, it's like that.

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  I think that's definitely part of it and probably that's it. I mean, that, that's it. When you go and try and unwind these things, you're probably gonna dig yourself a bigger hole. I think that's the, the overall.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I could see that.

• 35:31Jocko Willink?

  Are there times where people say something that's so horrible against you that you have to defend yourself? Sure, that can happen. I think when you do that, you keep it simple, you keep it direct and then you walk away. Right?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:44Jocko Willink?

  You say, look, I would never have done that or I would never have said that or whatever.

• 35:50Jocko Willink?

  And that's all I'm gonna say. Walk away. Break the wrist, walk away.

• 35:56Jocko Willink?

  All right, next. Or watch the things you gave your life to. Broken. And stoop and build them up with worn out tools. So you gave your life to whatever. Your life's works, you gave it all and, and that thing is broken. It's destroyed.

• 36:19Jocko Willink?

  And what you do is you stoop. I like that word because what does that mean? It means you're bending down. That means you're bowing down, right? You're having to get down. You have to stoop down. You go to the ground and begin to rebuild. What has been destroyed and you do it with worn out tools. Now, we're not just talking about worn out physical tools like a hammer and a saw. We're talking about you. We're talking about a worn out, broken down you.

• 36:51Jocko Willink?

  You are broken down and you're worn out, but you go anyway and you start from the beginning and you rebuild again.

• 37:02Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Remember the game Contra?

• 37:08Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Okay, there's this game on Nintendo called Contra.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  Nintendo.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Well dang, bro, that's too bad, but there's this game named Contra. And anyone who played Nintendo knows this game because it's freaking awesome. There's this code. It's basically these two guys. If you go one player, you go one player, two player, two players play on the same screen and you just go. It's like the basic side angle game. These commando Rambo guys.

• 37:31Jocko Willink?

  Side angle?

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Side angle. Yeah, it's not like, you know, you know, instead of a first person shooter or something, it's just a side angle. And it's these Rambo guys. You go two player, they both play on the same screen. Boom.

• 37:41Jocko Willink?

  Against each other?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  No, with each other.

• 37:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  So boom, they kill bad guys, right? So through the game, you can get different weapons.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  So, and each weapon is like more and more effective, right? So you can get the basic shooter is what you start with and you have a machine gun. You just hold the button down and it goes and it just machine gun. Then there's like a laser that just it can go and it can just kill like five people in a row like that can. And there's then there's the spreader. It's a spread gun. So at a side, a side angle game, multi level kind of thing, the spreader, it just kills everybody. Boom, boom. So one.

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  Can you kill, can you kill your own person by accident?

• 38:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  No blue and blue.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Your bullets.

• 38:17Jocko Willink?

  This game sucks.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  No, it's not realistic. You're right.

• 38:19Jocko Willink?

  This game is awful.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  You're right. There are some unrealistic elements of the game.

• 38:22Jocko Willink?

  There'd be some situations you get into that teach you about combat. Wouldn't teach you about the spreader.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 38:29Jocko Willink?

  Teach you about blue on blue, teach you about fratricide.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Alright, yeah.

• 38:32Jocko Willink?

  Teach you about human loss.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  I dig it and that'd probably be a heavy game, but Contra, it's not like that. So, when you get to, the point is, the point is, follow me here. The point is, when you get the spreader, you can make it super far. Because you're just killing everybody.

• 38:46Jocko Willink?

  How do you die if you have this infinite weapon?

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Bro, well, someone can still kill you if you mess, you know, someone shoots you, just like any other way you, you can die. But since you have the spreader that's just killing everyone so easily, you make it to high levels. You see what I'm saying? But here's the thing about Contra, when you get killed, you get like, you get three men. Right? I know, unrealistic, but still. That's most video games. Anyway, you get three men. If you get killed, you lose the spreader. You start, you start again where you were, but you still, you get that pea shooter again, the one you first started with. So it's that same thing. So you go through all the levels, you work so hard to get the spreader. You know?

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  Is this, you have three men? You have three lives?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, yeah, here's, okay, which is another thing about Contra, which is so awesome. You have three lives, but if you know the code in the beginning of the game, you can get thirty lives. And here's the code, up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A. And press start. That's the code it gives you thirty lives.

• 39:43Jocko Willink?

  If everyone knows that.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  I'll, I want one hundred percent guarantee that every single person, every single person that has played Contra knows that code. Not even like ninety-nine percent, one hundred percent.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, because you get ten times the amount of effectiveness.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:57Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  But it's a secret code, it's not like it comes with a game, like you gotta kind of know.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  If one hundred percent of people.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Well, this was back in like eighty-eight or eighty-nine, whenever that game was out.

• 40:07Jocko Willink?

  Pre-Interwebs.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Pre-Inter, yeah, whenever they.

• 40:10Jocko Willink?

  It'd be interesting to track how that information spread. Back then, right? Back then, how did it spread? Up, up, down, down, left, left, A, B. How did that spread? There was no, there was no internet.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  No viable internet.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true, the kids for damn sure weren't on it, I don't know.

• 40:28Jocko Willink?

  So your point is that this taught you.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Once, yeah.

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  That you will use those worn out tools and you'll still try and go back and rebuild Contra style.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Like

• 40:38Jocko Willink?

  I'm so glad Kipling is dead to not hear this.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Bro, I apologize. If he understood the concept, he'd be like, you are exactly right. Because here, here's the thing, here's, listen to the practicality of this whole.

• 40:48Jocko Willink?

  Froggy over there with your Kipling.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Because with the spread, okay, if you just had the pea shooter, right? We'll call it the pea shooter. That's the gun, the gun that you start with. If you start with that, it's really hard to make it to a high level. Cause it's like the levels get harder and harder and you just got that pea shooter, but those guys are gonna kill you. But if you get the spreader, it's the exact opposite. You can smash through levels.

• 41:10Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  And some of the levels at the end, you gotta have a powerful weapon to beat the boss. You see what I'm saying? So if you have the spreader, you can get pretty far.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  What's, I've heard people who use the term boss. Is there, is there a term called king boss or main boss or end boss?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  End boss, yeah. Main boss, end boss, yeah, for sure.

• 41:27Jocko Willink?

  And then this is a universal term.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Maybe with video games.

• 41:30Jocko Willink?

  With video games, right? And that's my question.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Bosses.

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  But do we know where the, the, the term originated from?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Boss.

• 41:38Jocko Willink?

  Who is the original end boss?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 41:41Jocko Willink?

  There's a video that someone made that's really, really funny. It's called, it's something about, it's about me. And it's, it's a German guy and it's like, how did Jocko Willink get so massive?

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:54Jocko Willink?

  Have you seen that video?

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Well, what, what was it?

• 41:56Jocko Willink?

  He just makes a video where he breaks down how I got so massive.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Yo, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  It's hilarious.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:02Jocko Willink?

  But one thing he goes, this is the, Jocko is the end boss to kill all end bosses. And I didn't really know what an end boss was, so I Googled it and I figured out that it's from the video game world.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  World.

• 42:12Jocko Willink?

  End boss.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Do you remember the, the date of, of that? Is it like an old school game, like Atari?

• 42:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's the video game world. No, no, no. The video game world. The world of video games.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Got you, got you.

• 42:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Look at you, you were a little taken aback. You're like, what video game was this, man? World, I wanna play that. Give me my spreader, I'll go get some levels.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Cause there's a game called Kung Fu in original Nintendo, it's called Kung Fu, five levels. But then they repeat and they get harder and harder, but there's five levels. And they, I think in the game, it called them the boss, like the first level boss.

• 42:43Jocko Willink?

  That might be it.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Then the second level boss. But I'm sure, I'm sure there's, cause there's other older games with bosses on them.

• 42:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, um, well, Kipling would say, because, oh, the point is when you get the spreader.

• 42:54Jocko Willink?

  Kipling.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  You'll encounter, when you get the spreader, if you go, you'll make it to a high level, you will. But here's the thing, that high level is super hard, so you need that spreader. And if you get hit. And you die, and you know, when you come back to life or whatever, you got the pea shooter, you find yourself like this with worn out tools.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  That's where you find yourself and it's hard. And if you put your mind to it, you can get that spread again, but it's really hard. Super hard. Anyone who played contra will attest to that.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  I think that right there is, uh, we'll leave it at that, man. That's my recommendation. All right, next. If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on a one turn of pitch and toss and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss.

• 43:43Jocko Willink?

  Never breathe a word about your loss. Isn't it when you meet someone and you, you talk to them and you deal with them for a while and they don't tell you anything about their background? And then you find out like later that they've been through some big struggle. So much more impactful and impressive.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:02Jocko Willink?

  Then when they're like, hey, I did this and I went through that night, you know? Just, I got a good idea. Just be quiet. Don't breathe a word about your loss.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  Just move, just, just perform.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  And this is also about being willing to take risk.

• 44:19Jocko Willink?

  Willing to take risk. This seems like an inappropriate risk to risk everything that you have on a single turn of pitch and toss. Doesn't seem like a smart risk. Rudyard Kipling, I don't know about that one.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, take it easy.

• 44:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to say, let's, let's, let's dial the dichotomy back of the extreme betting situation.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:38Jocko Willink?

  Right? That being said, you absolutely have to take risks in life.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Right. Like you gotta risk something. You can't just risk like a teeny tiny thing. Gotta be a risk.

• 44:48Jocko Willink?

  No risk, no reward. But let's not risk everything in one turn of pitch and toss. Let's not do that. Next, if you can force your heart and nerve and sinew to serve your turn long after they are gone. That's just awesome. Right? We're talking about forcing your heart and your nerve and your sinew and sinews of. Basically means your tendons and your ligaments and the things that hold your muscles and your bones together. And you know who used Shakespeare used sinew quite a bit? Cause it's just like the core element.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  But this is like saying you will get, you will force your body and your mind to do what you need them to do. Even when they're done, they're done. You're gonna force them to do more. When they have nothing left to give, you're gonna force them to give anyways. And then it rolls right into the next line, the next line. And so, hold on when there is nothing in you except the will, which says to them, hold on. You've got nothing left but will.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  Force of will.

• 45:59Jocko Willink?

  To make.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  Make them make, make your heart and make your nerve, make them hold the line.

• 46:10Jocko Willink?

  If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings, nor lose the common touch. So this is again, this is staying balanced. This is the dichotomy. No matter if you're involved with the masses. Right? Even if you're involved with the masses, you don't lose your virtue. Or if you're rubbing elbows with the rich and powerful with the kings.

• 46:35Jocko Willink?

  You don't lose that common touch. You stay grounded. You don't lose the ability to communicate with people up and down the chain of command from a leadership perspective. No matter what station someone is in life. You remember, remember episode five of this podcast, I read a counseling letter to a good guy. And I was like, hey, treat everyone with respect. Oh, one or E1 to O10, like it doesn't matter what rank someone is, you treat them with respect, no matter what. Don't lose that.

• 47:09Jocko Willink?

  Next, if neither friends nor loving, if either, if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you. This is what's interesting.

• 47:22Jocko Willink?

  It isn't always your enemies that hurt you, right? In fact, it's quite the opposite. Usually the people that hurt you the most are the people that are closest to you. Those are the ones that really. Yeah. Put the dagger in and twist it. So you gotta be above that. You gotta.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  You gotta kind of insulate yourself from that. You can't leave that last little bit of exposure. In my opinion, you gotta, you gotta keep a little bit, right? You gotta keep a little bit. You gotta keep. You gotta put yourself in a situation where you're not going to get crushed by your foes or by the people that you're close to.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:01Jocko Willink?

  Gotta keep it. It is hard. It is hard. Guys get jammed up, right?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Real jammed up.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  In echo Charles terminology, that jams people up all the time. The, the, the enemy doesn't jam people up as bad as the, the friends, right?

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, because the enemy, you expect that. You expect them trying to jam you up.

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but this goes back to the original, uh, what we talked about earlier. The, the person, uh, and we've talked about this on the podcast. The person that hurts you really bad, that was your friend, they, they weren't your friend.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:34Jocko Willink?

  They didn't exist.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:36Jocko Willink?

  The, they, you thought you knew them. You thought you understood them. You thought they were trustworthy. They weren't. So just, we have to just look at it and say, look, that person that I was in love with, or that person that I thought was going to be with me all the time. Guess what? That, that person doesn't exist. So we gotta move on. So you gotta keep, I think, a little bit, and this might sound cold blooded, right? It sounds a little bit cold blooded to be like, look, you gotta keep some stuff. You gotta, you gotta keep perspective. You gotta keep people in check. And if you let them get in to the point where they can grip you apart, you're going to be careful.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:10Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be careful who you decide you're going to do that with. Real careful.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  Or you, or this is, I think what I do is more like this. If that happens, I recognize it. Okay, this, this is what happened. Boom. That person wasn't who I thought they were. We're moving on.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Jocko Willink?

  We're moving on.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  Next quest. You know what I mean? We're moving on.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I guess it may be.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  I have the ability. I shouldn't say that. I have the ability. I think I learned along the way. Hey, once someone exposes themselves, reveals themselves as a.

• 49:47Jocko Willink?

  As a knave, right? As a knave. Once they reveal themselves as a knave, I'm over it. I'm moving on. Cause they've exposed, they've revealed, great. I'm actually happy that now I don't have to invest any more time, effort into this person. That's a knave.

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  A wretched knave.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then you, you have a, this kinda,

• 50:13Speaker 01

  how should I say, overdeveloped control of your emotions, we'll call it. Where like the average person is like, it's kinda like if you built a house, right? You built a house on Kauai and it was a nice house. You lived there for 10 years, 15 years even, a lot of memories in that house. Maybe even had some kids, whatever. First dog, all that stuff. And then a hurricane comes, blows it down, right? There's really nothing you could have done. You know, like if you had a girlfriend and she doesn't have the signs of being a knave, but then maybe she changed, maybe she was that all along. I don't know, she'd be, as it turns out, knave. The house gets blown down, okay, girlfriend's gone. You can easily say, hey, that was, that wasn't the girl that I loved, all this stuff. Okay, we're moving on.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Obviously you gotta move on, right? She's a knave.

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  If you're squared away in your head.

• 51:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  You gotta move on, you know that already, but you can't just be like, you're just move on. What about all those memories?

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, this, you're talking about the hurricane?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  I'm talking about both. So, yeah, I'll go back to the hurricane situation.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  The memories were lies. With the knave, the memories were lies.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, yeah, but emotionally it doesn't feel like that.

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  And guess what, you're free.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's.

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  You got away.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  That's, yeah, okay. Okay, that's.

• 51:23Jocko Willink?

  Escape the knave, be happy.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  That's good, but you're talking about like practically.

• 51:27Jocko Willink?

  How much you learned? You learned that you gotta be careful.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  But see what I'm saying though, like your sense of like emotional control allows you to go boom, right? Do that, one, right? Especially when it's fresh, like you can't just, oh yeah, look how much I learned, yay. Let's get moving on, but that's not the normal person. The normal person is, has, still has open wounds from, because yesterday that house was intact.

• 51:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but now we get to rebuild that kitchen and get rid of that crooked floor, right?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  See what you're doing again? See, you're doing it again. You're just going straight to the positive thing, which is a good thing to do, which is the right thing to do. But by the capability wise, the average person can't do that. So.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  No, it's gonna might be a little bit tricky, but what are their options?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  It will be a little bit.

• 52:08Jocko Willink?

  What are the options?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  There's no option.

• 52:09Jocko Willink?

  The option is, oh, I'm gonna be distressed and and mourn the loss of my house. Mourn the loss of your house. Do it for a, you know, a four days.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:19Jocko Willink?

  There should be a limitation.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good idea, huh? Be like, hey, one week right now, I'm gonna just let my emotions just be my emotions. Try not to like a week too long.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for a house, for sure. You know, that's, that's, that's one of the things that.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  More for the girlfriend or.

• 52:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for a girlfriend? Yeah, that's a bit.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Bro, people go months, bruh.

• 52:38Jocko Willink?

  No, people go years. People talk about it for years. That's not good. That's what I'm saying. That's, that's, that's my point. See? Instead of making me sound like I'm all cold blooded over here.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Well.

• 52:48Jocko Willink?

  What you should say is like, hey, I wish that some of the people that I know that wrecked their lives over a girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife that broke up with them and they let it ruin their lives. I wish you'd say, hey, I wish that they would have had enough to emotional control to say, you know what? All right, it's day three. They're not coming back. I have two choices. Dig a hole, climb in it, never come out, or step up, make things happen. Move forward. The choice is obvious. And once you step up and you start moving forward, in three years, you don't remember that person's name anymore. They're no factor.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  They're no factor.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Yeah. So what's the, I mean, obviously it's gonna be depend on what kind of person it is.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  So I've talked about this, like, we don't have a good a good system.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:42Jocko Willink?

  When someone dies in America, we, we don't really know what to do because in other countries, in other in other cultures, they have a specific ritual that they go through. And in America, our rituals are kind of all jammed together. And then we don't really know what the right ritual is, right? We don't even know how to dispose of the body. Do we? Do we burn it? Do we bury it? Do we bury it? See, like, there's all these options.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Options, yeah.

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  Do you donate your organs? Do you not? There's just like, oh, do you donate to your body to science? Well, what are we, what are you supposed to do? What's the right thing to do? We don't even know that. We don't even know what to do with someone's body. So how are we supposed to know what we're supposed to do emotionally when someone dies? What are we supposed to do? We don't have a physical ritual to do. So now what do we do?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  And so it's the same thing, like there should be rules.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:27Jocko Willink?

  Hey.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Like a protocol.

• 54:28Jocko Willink?

  Yes, a protocol. Broke up with significant other. Here's the protocol.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  One day morning. One pizza. Extra cheese. Pepperoni, sausage, right? Mint chocolate chip milkshake.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Next day.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Vodka.

• 54:46Jocko Willink?

  No, no.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  No vodka ever.

• 54:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't recommend it.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  I don't either.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't recommend it.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Even more in the other direction.

• 54:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The next day I was like, what I was gonna say is, like I was gonna say, eight mile run. Eight mile run. That's just what you gotta do. Yeah. Hey, oh, yeah. What are you doing tomorrow? Yeah, I broke up my girlfriend two days ago. I gotta run eight miles tomorrow.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  That's the protocol.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  Part of the protocol.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, yo, you, oh, and there could be different levels. Oh, I was going out with her for every, let's say for every three months that you were with her, that's one mile.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  One mile. Okay.

• 55:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Good.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  And so then you do that. And when you get done with that, guess what you gotta do? You gotta do a, you gotta do a contrast baths, ice, hot, ice, hot.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:25Jocko Willink?

  You gotta do that four times, right?

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:27Jocko Willink?

  No, what you do is a good protocol for, for contrast baths, five minutes ice, five minutes heat, four minutes ice, four minutes heat. You go back and forth. When you get done with that, boom, you come out, you cleansed. And then guess what? Twenty-four hour fast. Right? Twenty-four hour fast.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  That actually kinda sounds weird, like for a breakup, but bro, so many cultures do that. Oh, yeah, you gotta fast.

• 55:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  You gotta fast for this.

• 55:50Jocko Willink?

  So, and so then we could go on and on, but you make a protocol. It's a three day protocol, generally. And then boom, now we come out of that protocol. And then there's one last, the last thing on the protocol is like, go to work or, you know, begin normal routine, back to normal routine. You go to bed, back to, oh, I know the final protocols, wake up, whatever time it is you get up in the morning. Third, fourth day, now the protocol's been completed, fourth day, boom, wake up, get, get busy. Get on with it. Get after it. That's what I'm talking about. So we don't have that. So if you, if you put in your mind. I think for me, I recognize when something is dragging me. This is dragging me in the wrong direction.

• 56:32Jocko Willink?

  Soon as I see something dragging me in the wrong direction, I know like an internal protocol is like, okay, I'm emotionally attached to this situation. It's not beneficial to me. It's not beneficial to me. It's not gonna help me. It's not gonna help me understand the nature of the world. It's not gonna help me move forward with my life. It's not gonna help me in any way. Guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna detach. We're gonna, we're gonna take a little step away from that thing. Because I'm not saying emotions are bad. Emotions are great. That's what makes us human beings, right? I get emotional on this podcast, right?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 56:59Jocko Willink?

  That's not bad.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:01Jocko Willink?

  That's actually good. Makes me understand myself and other things in the world better. But that's a positive effect of emotions. But if I start having negative emotions and they start dragging me down, protocol.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  Execute the protocol. Boom, that's what we need to do.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, what if like part of the protocol was like to shave your head or something, right?

• 57:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that could be, right? And then, and then let's say like you, you break up with your girlfriend or something. And then like, you know, a few days later, you see her at the post office or something. She has a shaved head. You're like, oh, man, she's getting over me quick. You see what I'm saying?

• 57:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  But that would help, though.

• 57:38Jocko Willink?

  That would.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  It totally would. Because it's like, it's like, it's like the process and it gives you something else to focus on. See what I'm saying? So it's like, okay.

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  You're talking about the protocol in general?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  The protocol, having a protocol, especially if it expands like, you know, three, four days. Boom, boom, boom. It's like, you know, doesn't AA have something like that too? Where you do the stat and you know?

• 57:57Jocko Willink?

  Protocols. Yeah, man. All kinds of things. There's a reason protocols exist.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  Because it gives you something to follow. You don't have to think about it and it moves you in the right direction.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 58:06Jocko Willink?

  So think about that for your life. Pay attention to it. Cause the scary part about this, and we've talked about this too. It's like the storm, your head's in a storm and you can't get out. And the only person, everyone else can see that your head has a, has a, has a two foot cloud around it.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:20Jocko Willink?

  And everybody can see if you just move in a direction, you'll get away from that cloud. But everywhere you look, you just see storm and cloud and thunder and lightning. So you don't think there's any way out, but there is.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta execute the protocol. The protocol is you go due north. Eighteen hundred meters, you're gonna be out, right? That's what's gonna happen. Shave your head, run eight miles. Eat a pizza. Eat a mint chocolate chip milkshake. That's day one. That's a little comfort.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:45Jocko Willink?

  Little luxury. Theo Von Luxury Style.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I remember that. That was good.

• 58:50Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next.

• 58:57Jocko Willink?

  We went way off on that one.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Brad, that was good. That was actually really good. That kind of gets you thinking because if you, you could even do this right now. If you're in, even if you're in a rela-, even if you're not even in a relationship yet, because those are the ones, right? Just, yeah, prepare a protocol.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Like, hey, if this, because it's kind of like a natural disaster, you do that.

• 59:14Jocko Willink?

  You know what? There's also, there's also something you could do that would be helpful. And I hate to use this word because it gets used in a different sense these days, but you can have trigger points, right? Things that happen where if you see, if you identify things happening, you go, okay, if I get involved in this situation and this happens, that's a trigger that means I need to walk, right? For instance, let's say you have someone that has, let's say, let's say you meet someone that was an addict of some kind. An alcoholic. And you're like, okay, if this person starts drinking, that's my trigger. I'm, I'm gonna walk because you don't want to go down that spiral with them. Right? Or you, whatever the case may be. You have someone that used to date some other guy.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, if I see that there's whatever, a Facebook connection again, I'm walking, whatever. Like, you gotta, you figure out these things and that way you predetermine them when you're in a non-emotional state.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Jocko Willink?

  When you get to the emotional state, hopefully you can overcome your emotions because there's people that are like, I don't care. I love him. I love her. I'm just gonna keep going. There's only this one time, right?

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yep, that's how.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  She friended me. Right? And then they, they stick around. But if you have your protocol in place, you have the triggers to execute upon, it's gonna make it easier for you. It should make it easy for you.

• 1:00:34Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next one. This is a good one. If all men count with you, but none too much. And think about this one. And I, I, we actually got wrapped around this one a little bit in the podcast one time. Because this is a dichotomy of the fact that I personally, there's part of me that doesn't care what anyone thinks. And then there's part of me that completely cares about what people, specifically people that I have a lot of respect for.

• 1:00:59Jocko Willink?

  I care what they think a lot. And people that I don't respect, I don't care what they think. So there's a dichotomy there. And that's similar to what is being said here. If all men count with you, so you take their opinions, you understand, but at the same time, none too much to sway you from the path.

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  And here, next line. I think this is one of the greatest lines ever. If you can kill, if you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run, so.

• 1:01:35Jocko Willink?

  The unforgiving minute. That's a great, that's the way you should think of every minute. Every minute that exists for you is unforgiving because it does not stop. It does not forgive and you can't have it back. That's the unforgiving minute. Time has no mercy on anyone. And what he's saying here is if you can fill every one of those unforgiving minutes of your life, every single one of them with a full 60 seconds of you running and moving forward and getting after it. If you can push that hard. If you can push that hard, then he closes out.

• 1:02:17Jocko Willink?

  Yours is the earth and everything that's in it. And which is more?

• 1:02:25Jocko Willink?

  You'll be a man, my son.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  So, there it is. If you can do all those things, and that's the name of the poem. If, if you can do those things, those things that are simple, but not easy. Simple, but definitely not easy. Then the world will be yours and you will be a man. Meant in the most positive possible way.

• 1:02:58Jocko Willink?

  So now, we go back. This is what we do. Now that we understand it fully. We go through it fully.

• 1:03:10Jocko Willink?

  Here it goes. If.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  If you can keep your head, when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you. If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too. If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, or being lied about, don't deal in lies, or being hated, don't give way to hating, and yet don't look too good nor talk too wise.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  If you can dream and not make dreams your master.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  If you can think and not make thoughts your aim.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, and stoop and build them up with worn-out tools.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss, and lose, and start again at your beginnings, and never breathe a word about your loss.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew to serve your turn long after they are gone, and so hold on when there is nothing in you except the will which says to them, "Hold on."

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue. Or walk with kings, nor lose the common touch if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, if all men count with you but none too much.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  If you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run, yours is the earth and everything that's in it. And which is more,

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  you'll be a man, my son.

• 1:05:46Jocko Willink?

  And there you have it.

• 1:05:49Jocko Willink?

  Some pretty straightforward instructions from Kipling on how to live and I looked at it and his son died in World War I. He wrote this poem just before the turn of the century. So he wrote this poem before his son was killed, before his son went to war. Perhaps just after his son was born in that timeframe.

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  So I'm sure his son grew up with these thoughts.

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  And I think it's thoughts that we can all use.

• 1:06:25Jocko Willink?

  So, Kipling, thank you.

• 1:06:29Jocko Willink?

  And now we are going to go through some Q and A. Dig into a little bit of Q and A.

• 1:06:39Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  First question.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  First question.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Okay, Jaco, many times you said that liking a fight or liking to fight should be a part of every man's personality. Could you expand on that? I've always been interested in martial arts, but I've always been reluctant to fight and I would do anything not to. Does that make me less of a man?

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  So obviously this is a pretty fitting question for the situation.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  We good on that?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Jocko Willink?

  We gotta jock a white tee down.

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  So this is obviously a good question and a fitting question, talking about being a man.

• 1:07:23Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if I said liking to fight should be a part of everybody's, every man's personality, or if I said that it is part of every man's personality. And I think I said is part of their personality. And if I said that, what I think I should have said is most, right? Most men have in their personality, some level of interest of fighting, right? We wrestle, we box, we scrap as kids. Look at the UFC. Right? Why is the UFC so popular right now? Because it's fighting. And we have that. That's a, I read the other day, that's a $7 billion organization. That's a, there's a lot of people watching those fights.

• 1:08:07Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people want to watch those fights. We have boxing, we have wrestling, we have jiu-jitsu, we have judo, we have Muay Thai, we have all kinds of martial arts schools. So while I don't think the desire to fight is inherent in all men, right? I'm sure there's men out there that are not into it at all. But I think it's definitely a, a pretty strong part of many men. Now, for this individual in particular,

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  do I think that being reluctant to fight makes you less of a man? No, actually, I think it's fine. You should be reluctant to fight. I think everyone should be reluctant to fight. There's a lot of bad things that can happen in a fight, a lot of bad things, you know? First of all, you can get hurt, right? That's bad. You can get seriously hurt. You can get killed. You can get killed. You can get punched one time, fall down, hit a curb and die. You can think you're going to get in a fair fight with someone, they can stab you in the neck and kill you. Right? These things can happen. Even if it's not that bad, you can hurt someone else. Now you're getting lawsuit. Now you're getting put in prison, right? So there's all kinds of bad things. So being reluctant to fight is actually a good thing. And it's something that men should have. And actually, the more you know about fighting, the more reluctant you will be.

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  I was way, the less I knew in my life about fighting, the more, uh, sorry. The more I actually knew about fighting, the more reluctant I became to fight. Cause I realized all the risks that are involved. Part of that was maturity, sure. But the reality is you look at someone, you go, I don't know who that person is. A, they, they might be training. I'm over here thinking, I've been training jujitsu for eight months. I'm ready to kick this guy's ass. Meanwhile, you don't know that guy has a purple belt. Guess what's gonna happen to you? You're getting crushed. Or that guy wrestled in high school. He's about to double leg you and slam you on the curb. You're gonna die. So you should be reluctant to fight. That's a good thing. Now, that being said,

• 1:10:00Jocko Willink?

  I do recommend that you are prepared to fight. I definitely recommend that. And there's gonna be a big dichotomy here I'm gonna get to, but you should know some basics, right? You should understand threats. You should know how to contend with other people. You should, you know, you should know some boxing. You should know some wrestling. You should know some Muay Thai. You should know some jujitsu for sure.

• 1:10:22Jocko Willink?

  Because here's the dichotomy. This is the, this is a big dichotomy and think about it. It's a hundred percent true. This, this individual says he would do anything not to fight. Would do anything not to fight. Let me tell you, the best thing you can do as a human so that you don't have to fight is actually learn how to fight. That is the best way to not have to fight is if you know how to fight. If you know how to fight, people aren't gonna wanna fight you. You don't even have to say anything. They can tell. You can tell when you meet somebody. You can tell if that person, oh, if you, if you're ready to fight,

• 1:10:58Jocko Willink?

  people don't wanna fight you. The more eager you are to fight, the less people wanna fight you. If you don't know how to fight and, and bullies, cause that's what we're talking about. Bullies see that you don't wanna fight? Guess who they're coming after? You. Now guess what? Now you have to fight. But if you know how to fight and you have that confidence and you have that understanding and you learn simple things like avoidance and you learn, you have better situational awareness, you become a threat to the people that wanna fight you. You become a threat to them just by, just by your knowledge alone. So.

• 1:11:31Jocko Willink?

  No, you're not less of a man. Because you're reluctant to fight, you actually should be reluctant to fight, but you should learn how to fight because the best way to avoid fighting, the more equipped and prepared to fight you are, the less you will have to fight. The less you will be put in positions where you have to fight and the better the outcome will be if it does happen to occur.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, interestingly, like a lot of the people that you meet in jujitsu are are just like this. Where I'm interested in martial arts, but I'm not interested in fighting nobody, you know? And then they learn and then they get all

• 1:12:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's a strong component of nerds in jujitsu, right? Strong component, really strong of of, you know, I'm saying it jokingly, but there's

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Just a studious type

• 1:12:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, studious type people that aren't super physical, that are more cerebral than they are physical. There's a ton of people like that and you know what they'll do? Choke you out.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, they wind up being real good.

• 1:12:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they wind up being real good because they're like, oh, I I understand this. There's a, this is a game that I can learn and then I can crush.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:38Jocko Willink?

  And that's good. And now I have more confidence. I don't have to worry about it anymore.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's interesting how that third or that that additional element that they're not really used to, like how you say nerds and you know, we'll just say like people who are more cerebral than physical, you know, it's it's that.

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  Maybe they didn't play high school sports, right?

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Jocko Willink?

  Because they were studying, because they were working on a computer, right? Cool, right on.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  They were they were playing music, right?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then now they get into this highly physical situation because jujitsu, let's face it, it's physical, that's your whole body. It is physical as physical can be and but you get in it and you're just finding success just by learning it. It's not like football where it's like, sure, I know how to catch. I can't run fast, though, and I can't, I'm not big and strong or whatever, so I'm just getting smashed, you know, I can. But this, it's kind of like the more you know, the better you are kind of thing. And sure, physical attributes help you for sure, but not as much.

• 1:13:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, there's being stronger is great.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, Dean was talking about this today on the mat. The stronger guy is not always gonna win. The more athletic guy is not always gonna win. Sometimes they do. There's various categories that will bring you a victory. One of the strongest categories that you can have, well, the strongest category is your technique.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Knowing what to do.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  Is knowing what to do. And so you're smart people, you're cerebral people that come in and go, oh, I can apply, I can apply this knowledge the same way I apply my skills in accounting. James Nielsen, world's toughest accountant, right? He's an accountant. He's a badass.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:10Jocko Willink?

  So that's just the reality.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  And yeah, and that's why. So now they're in, that's why people get addicted too, because it's like this element of physicality, like a physical fighting, fighting sport, by the way, combat sport.

• 1:14:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  And now they're in it and they're good at it. They're good at something physical for the first time and they're still smart as smart can be. You know, like they always were. So now they got that, that additional like payoff, you know, that's where they get it.

• 1:14:33Jocko Willink?

  Additional power.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  I recognize that with kids that come to jujitsu. The oftentimes, and it's not an always, oftentimes the kids that get really into jujitsu are kids that are smart. And, but they haven't done a lot of other sports yet. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's very noticeable with kids. The kid that played baseball his whole life and he comes in there, he actually doesn't like it at first. And maybe doesn't even want to do it because he's getting choked by someone that seems all nerdy to him.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  And he knows I could throw a baseball farther than this guy. And so it makes him mad and he doesn't want to train.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Jocko Willink?

  But oftentimes it's the kids that come in that really haven't done too much athletically. And you know, they got picked on. We've, I've had a lot of bullies come to my jujitsu kids program. The reason they're there is because they got bullied. And once they start training, six months, they're not getting bullied anymore. And a year later, they're a different person. They're a different kid. Confident, assure themselves, not backing down, not being jerks, not being bullies themselves, but just confident.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:37Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah.

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  Train some jujitsu.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Big time. Alright, next question. Jaco and Echo question. How important is personal intelligence in the military? Particularly in more dangerous roles as compared to physical strength? I'm a college student who will probably go to OCS.

• 1:16:00Jocko Willink?

  Officer candidate school.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this has been on my mind.

• 1:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, okay, so intelligence is paramount, right? Of course, if you aren't smart, you're gonna do dumb things and dumb things can definitely get you killed. This is not to say that if you do dumb things, you will get killed because I did some really dumb things in combat and I didn't get killed. And it certainly isn't to say that if you get killed, you did something dumb because to combat, it has no mercy and you can be the best trained, the smartest, the most tactfully sound person in the world. And those people can still get killed. Combat doesn't care about any of that. That bullet has no one's name on it. It, the bomb has no one's name on it. It's gonna go off and it's gonna take out who it takes out.

• 1:16:48Jocko Willink?

  And that's that. But as far as weighing, you know, intelligence and cognitive power versus strength. I mean, you have to be, I would rather be smart and being smart is very important. Because if you're smart, if you aren't smart, I should say, you increase your chance of doing something that isn't smart. And then you're gonna make some kind of mistake that will negatively impact you. So, yes, being smart is very important. Now, there are some cases without question where physical strength and stamina is at least as important and sometimes more important.

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  That's just the way it is. You might have to climb a cliff to escape the enemy. That's just the way it is. You might have to sw- Mike Thornton. Mike Thornton swam for what? Five hours dragging two people? Now, he could be the smartest guy in the world and which he, he did a damn good job of, you know, getting the life jackets and getting himself organizing a situation where it'd be the easiest possible way for him to swim. Even with that, you still gotta swim for five hours dragging two people while you're wounded, by the way.

• 1:18:04Jocko Willink?

  So if he didn't have that physical strength at that point, that brain wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter. So what's interesting about this is guess what? A really smart person will get himself or herself the physical capabilities. That's what you'll do. The smart person, the really smart person will work their ass off to get in shape and to stay in shape.

• 1:18:32Jocko Willink?

  Because you can be smart and come up with the most brilliant plan in the world, but if you don't have the physical wherewithal to execute that plan, then that, that brilliant plan doesn't matter. So yes, you want to be smart and yes, you want to be physically strong. You want to exercise your brain and your body as much as possible and get them both as mentally strong, physically, get yourself as mentally strong, as physically strong as you possibly can. And that's not just in the, not just in the military. That's in life.

• 1:19:03Jocko Willink?

  In life.

• 1:19:05Jocko Willink?

  Somebody quoted on Twitter the other day, you, if you, you can't, you don't know two plus two if you're dead. Like you can't add two plus two. So if you're, if you're investing all your time in being smart or you're investing all your time in, in that intellectual aspect of your life, and then you let your physical aspect go, well, guess what? Now you're, now you're unhealthy. Now you die. Cause you didn't take care of your, now what good is your brain now? Zero, zero good.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Zero good.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Next wish. Jaco, how do you give feedback to someone without everyone taking it personal? I try to give criticism regarding their work or actions while not attacking their character. But unfortunately, many feel that it's personal.

• 1:19:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, welcome to the world.

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  People don't like criticism. And I almost put a no one in the world likes criticism. Okay, so there might be point 00001% of the world that's really like open and ready for feedback. Right? But most people, even when they say, even when they tell you they want feedback, they don't want it. They don't want it. Like, let me, let me give you an example. If you, Echo Charles.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  Were like, you, you made a video and it took you hours.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Brad, don't even, don't even.

• 1:20:29Jocko Willink?

  Right? You know what I'm saying? Like, you could come to me and say, hey, what do you think? And I was like, well, you know, I think you framed this up wrong. How, what's your reaction to that? I mean, there's no possible way that you're stoked on that. There just don't. Now, luckily, you know, we know each other. You can detach and be like, alright, he's, he doesn't, he's not pointing this out to me for no reason, whatever. But what I'm saying is, even when you're saying, hey, what do you think of this? And I criticize something that you work so hard on, there's no one in the world that's happy about that. Even when they ask for it. So you have to flank people, that's what you have to do. Now, he's asking specifically, how do you do this? So here's some things. What, one of the things that I do when I want to give someone criticism, I don't give them criticism. What I do is I ask them questions about whatever it is.

• 1:21:14Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is interesting. I'm not even talking about pointed questions. I'm not even talking about like hard questions. I'm, I'm not saying like, why did you do that?

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm talking about, hey, why did you do it that way? Like, there's a big difference between like, hey, why did you do it that way?

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Jocko Willink?

  Like, instead of saying, hey, Echo, that frame is, doesn't look good. Hey, why'd you frame that up like that? Right? So now I'm getting you to think about it. Right? But I'm not gonna say, dude, how are you gonna make that work?

• 1:21:42Jocko Willink?

  You know? I'm gonna say, well, hey, do you think you're gonna be able to make that work?

• 1:21:48Jocko Willink?

  If, if you did something and it doesn't go well, I'm not gonna say, you know, did you actually think that was a good idea? Yeah. Instead, I'm gonna say, it's again, it's not a pointy question, I'm gonna say, well, hey, did that unfold the way you thought it was gonna unfold? And now you're gonna get to answer the question. Now you're gonna be, you're gonna be the person that uncovers the fault. It's gonna be you, not me. And that makes it so much more palatable to everyone when they're able to say, oh yeah, you know, I saw this over here. And most of the time, the person knows the truth. Most of the time, the person knows that that thing's not framed up right. They know that their idea wasn't that great. So you don't need to punch them in the face with it, because that's actually gonna make them get defensive.

• 1:22:30Jocko Willink?

  So you flank them, you ask them the questions, you talk about it, you discuss the subject. And what you do is you guide them, you guide them to a mirror. You guide them to a mirror, and then, and then you set them look in that mirror. You set them up so they have to look in that mirror, so that they can see the problems themselves. And once they see the problems themselves, they can start to correct them.

• 1:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Now, sometimes you, sometimes it's your ego, that wants, even once they see the problem themselves, people want them to take credit for showing that. So you gotta, you gotta check your ego. You gotta make sure that your ego isn't saying, I wanna prove to this person that I know how to frame this up better. Then you gotta put that all in check. You gotta just let, you gotta let them have it.

• 1:23:17Jocko Willink?

  So, now, are there situations where you can give really good frank feedback? Yes, there is. But you have to have a good relationship with that person, a really good, really good relationship with that person. And then usually, one of the best ways to, to make this happen is that the feedback, the negative feedback is going both ways, meaning I wanna get negative feedback about my performance from that person, so that there's some equanimity in what's being said amongst us, right?

• 1:23:47Jocko Willink?

  So I might be, you know, I might say, hey, Echo. Hey, man, I, you know, I did this, uh, I answered this question on Q and A. Did you think that was a good answer? Cause I think, you know, I think it could have been better. And then you say, yeah, you know, you dragged on, you talked too long and whatever. You give me some critique and then I go, oh, yeah. Hey, and by the way, the lighting on that didn't look good. Right? And so now we have a little mutual criticism and it's all good. It makes a little bit more palatable to you because I made the thing. And so that sometimes works, but what's interesting is even when you do that, some people just don't even freaking care. And, and they, even after they just tear you apart. And then you throw a little, little, like a little nick on their shoulder, on their arm. You give them a little nick about something that wasn't right. They still get.

• 1:24:32Jocko Willink?

  So you have to be really. You have to have a really great relationship with that person to be able to have just that straight, straight feedback. But build relationships, ask them questions, let them find their own faults if you can. And be their guide, let them, guide them to that mirror, guide them to their faults. Now, of course, there are some people that won't even find their own faults, no matter how you guide them and how hard you try and twist them to look in the mirror. You have to let them know. You actually have to come out and say what's going on. You have to be more direct. Now luckily, if a person is the type of person that fails to see their own faults, they begin to fail, right?

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  Cause they're making mistakes. That's why they're false, right? They're making mistakes. And when they see that, when, when you see that and you see that their project is failing or you see that their people are revolting against them, or you see that they're missing deadline after deadline, they know that too. And then what you're doing is you're coming to them basically as like a concerned friend that really wants to help them win. And, and pointing out some of these obvious failures that they might not be, you know, aware of. And you still gotta be gentle about this. But when you come to them, you can come to them as a friend, as a, as a person that really wants them to win. And you can come out, out of there, looking like the good guy, trying to help them get their,

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  their self back on track. So those are some of the, some of the basic strategies. And I used to help people do a little course correction. People need a little criticism so that they can uh improve their game for themselves, for the team, etc.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Very good.

• 1:26:24Jocko Willink?

  Tough business, man. People aren't, people aren't, people don't like criticism.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:29Jocko Willink?

  Here to tell you.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they like praise. You know how?

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  And you know, the other side of this coin, if you're a person, which you are, and you don't like criticism, which you don't, if you can open your mind to the criticism, man, you're gonna be so, you're gonna get so much better about everything that you do. If you can just listen to people without getting ego crazy and thinking, what do you know about this?

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Just listen. Just listen, nod your head, listen to what they have to say. They're trying to help you, right? We assume that they're trying to help us.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Listen to them.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Are there times when they're not? Absolutely. But if you go in with the assumption that this person's just trying to cut me down, well, then that's not gonna get you anywhere. But if you're, if you make this assumption, you know what? I'm gonna listen to what this person has to say. What's wrong with that?

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  Even if it's an assumption and we're not supposed to assume. If I assume, you know what? I'm gonna assume that Echo is giving me criticism right now because he wants me to do better. And I'm gonna take them as, as face value as I can.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Jocko Willink?

  That he is trying to help me get better. Boom.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and yeah, that's actually really correct. If you start at that point, that's your default, right? That hey, this criticism is to help.

• 1:27:40Jocko Willink?

  Now, I might look at your criticism and I analyze it from a detached perspective and I go, I think actually Echo is just trying to drag me in the wrong direction because he's jealous and I might get to that point.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it'll be more, way more obvious.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  It'll be way more obvious.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  If you started at that, that other point where it's like, okay, it's here. But if you're just default, oh, he just wants to try to look like he knows everything, or he just wants to, you know, make, if you start there.

• 1:28:02Jocko Willink?

  Not the place to be.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't even kind of discern, you know, if that really is happening or not.

• 1:28:07Jocko Willink?

  Not the place to be.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Not the place to be. Next question. Chaco, what's the best way to combine striking and grappling with self-defense in mind? Never heard you mention MMA in this context, only jiu-jitsu with gloves on. Consequently, how the teams adapt MMA-based training to real situations? What's your take on army's modern army combatants?

• 1:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so a few questions there. How do you best learn to combine striking and grappling? Well, what you do is you combine striking grappling. That's how you get good. You put on the big gloves. We used to call it shoot boxing. That was like a block of training that we doing with guys that were fighting MMA. You put on the big, the relatively big boxing gloves and then you put, you mix in takedowns with them. So that's great. You should do that. You can do that with kids, too. You can do that with kids where you put the big boxing gloves on kids and you have them shoot those double legs all day long. So when somebody takes a swing at them, they know how to set up. They know the timing. They start to get familiar with it because in a way, well, takedowns are easier in MMA. Because the person is not solely defending against a takedown. They're defending against punches.

• 1:29:16Jocko Willink?

  They're defending against kicks. So they have to be in a different stance. And so that's the way it works. If you want to train to get combined striking grappling, you have to combine them together. And you know, if I've only mentioned it with jiu-jitsu with gloves on, man, I've done a ton of MMA sparring with fighters. Like a ton with gloves, with big gloves, shoot boxing, little gloves, everything. And I don't know why I haven't talked about it much, but yeah, I've done a ton of it. And that's how I know like taking someone down with, that's trying to punch you is easier. Now it sucks when you get punched, but it is easier than going against someone that's just trying to wrestle you and has a different stance, a lower stance and all that.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, that's how you do it. You put, you put, you put big gloves on and then also you can do, you can drill with big gloves on where someone's trying to punch you while they're in your guard or while you're punching, well, someone's trying to punch you while they're mounted. You can do that with slaps too, right? Like I mount you and I'm just start slapping you because then you realize if these were punches, you'd be in serious trouble. So yeah, you can mix those things in and mix them together. Don't get hurt, be careful, but yeah, you can definitely mix them. So now the next question was how do the teams adapt MMA-based training? Well, the big concepts are the same. The big concepts are exactly the same. You're gonna have to close the distance. Like you've got someone that's unarmed that you're gonna need control of. Well, you gotta close the distance. You gotta take them down. You gotta get control of them. You gotta submit them or subdue them somehow.

• 1:30:46Jocko Willink?

  That that can happen. You've got to be able to break away. If somebody grabs you. You gotta be able to break away. You've got to be able to get up off the ground. There's some large muscle movements that are exactly the same. The striking parts are exactly the same. Someone's, you know, you want to clear someone or or or you want to punch someone to get them, you know, a little bit disoriented. Before you get control them. Yeah, that's that's that's what you're doing. That's what that's what boxing is, you know? And so those things aren't, there's so much of it that overlaps that the adaption doesn't have to be barely anything. The adaption comes in and we have to do some additional training, some additional concepts that you're moving with gear on. That you have to be able to protect your weapons.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  And your weapon systems. So you know, you want to be aware of where your rifle is, where your pistol is, where your knife is, so that people can't get a hold of it. Weapons retention. So that becomes part of it. The the the fact that you're working with another person, usually a partner. A shooting buddy, that's good. That's going to cover and move for you. So if I go to take a guy down, I gotta be aware of where my partner is in case that. Person that I'm trying to take down gets the upper hand or has a weapon that I didn't see so that my partner can get a clear shot. So there are tactical things that you do have to add in, but the fundamental concepts, there's. They're they're so transferable. They're so transferable that it's it's it's like, you know, I. It's like gi and no gi, right?

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  It's like gi and no gi. If someone is awesome at gi, they're gonna be good at no gi.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:14Jocko Willink?

  And will, are there some concepts that you need to learn? Yeah, there's some little things, but there's an overlap is huge. Baseball and softball, right? The if someone played college baseball and now they're playing on their local restaurant softball team, they're gonna crush it, right? It's not the exact same sport. Longboard surfing versus shortboard surfing, right? If someone's a great surfer on a shortboard, they're gonna be decent on a longboard. They might, they're not, they might not win the world champ like. If someone's awesome no gi. And they don't really train gi. They're not gonna win the worlds, but they'll be. They'll be damn good. One of the things that I used to, well.

• 1:32:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, shooting, shooting, you got combat shooting, but then you just have competitive target shooting, right? Is competitive target shooting the same as combat shooting? No, there's no explosions, there's no movement, or oftentimes, there's competition where they do have movement too, and the more close it is, the better it's gonna be, but if you're a competitive rifle shooter, and you, and then you do combat shooting, it is definitely, there's a ton of crossover. One of the things that I used to talk about a lot, when people would question, hey, well, MMA fighting isn't, it's not good for the SEAL teams, because you don't have any gear on. One of the examples that I used a lot was guys that were really into parachuting. And, you know, when you, when you jump in the civilian world, you don't have a rucksack,

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  you don't have a weapon, you don't have night vision goggles, you don't have any of that stuff. And yet, if you have a thousand jumps, as a civilian with a slick rig on, you're gonna be infinitely better at the military skydive with the, with the weapon, and the rucksack, and the night vision, and all that, you're gonna be infinitely better. It's the same exact thing. Are there some little things that you're gonna have to figure out, some details, where that, where they don't completely overlap? Yes, absolutely. So, there you go. So, I guess when you train jiu-jitsu, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, there, if, if you're in the military, you know, you also have to make sure that you carve out time where you think about the other components, right? About having gear on, what that, what

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  changes when you have your gear on, how to protect your weapons, all that stuff that I talked about, about, about working with other people, about the tactical situations that you're in, because there's gonna be some tactical situations that you're in, if you're not thinking straight, you're gonna have a problem. You ever, you ever had somebody that goes, well, jiu-jitsu's not good for self-defense, because what are you gonna do, pull guard in the street? It's like, no, you're never gonna pull guard in the street, or you shouldn't.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  As if pulling guard is like, the only thing jiu-jitsu has to offer.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but here's the, well, the fact is, if someone takes you down in the street, and you don't know the guard, what are you gonna do? You're gonna get your face smashed.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, he will.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  So, you gotta cover both angles, but there's so much overlap that if you get good at the fundamentals of MMA, you will be really good at the, what you need to know with the additional concepts on military tactical types, type situations. As far as modern army combatives, it's a great, solid foundational program, and created by some great...

• 1:35:17Jocko Willink?

  Great martial artists that were in ground floor. I think Matt Larson, he's the guy that that kind of is the grandfather of or father of, I don't know if he's old enough to be grandfather. He might even be my age, so I don't know. Sorry, Matt. But yeah, I mean, he put together a great system and it's a great fundamental system. Is, could someone pick apart some aspect of the army? Sure, you could. But when you look at the whole system, it's a great solid system to get people started out on. So props.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, any system you can kind of say that for.

• 1:35:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can. And that's why it's important to, that's why I said foundational system, right? Because it's a great foundational system because once you learn it, you don't, you don't learn the army combat, the modern army combatants and then say, okay, no good now. You don't need to train anymore. That's not the right answer. The right answer is you have a good foundation. Now keep building on it. That's the answer.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember I used to train for MMA and pankration. Remember that?

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Um, and I was training for a while and the sparring element of it, you know, there's three things, because there's, you know, even if you're training MMA, you're going to train striking one day and maybe even specialized striking stuff one day and then, you know, wrestling and grappling and jiu-jitsu one day. But you have MMA sparring, which is a full MMA fight with big gloves and, you know, may or may not have shin pads or whatever, but it's essentially MMA fight and that is 100% incorporating grappling and striking and take that's everything, you know? So it's kind of like one of those things where you get to train to fill in those gaps between, okay, one moment I'm striking, one moment I'm grappling and the strikes while you're grappling, you know?

• 1:36:54Jocko Willink?

  And there's, and there's some, there's some inconsistencies because if you were striking with big gloves, then you can't grab someone's hands the way you would with the little gloves on. But like you said, what it does is it fills in the gaps.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  And that's what the training, that training is for. So like, um, you know, if you're, you know, if you like to play guard or you have a slick game from guard or whatever, if you train like in MMA training or training with strikes and stuff like that, it'll really expose where you're in danger in a real fight because that guy's gonna, you know, that guy's gonna punch you in the face down there. So it's a faster paced thing. So it just builds your awareness of it. So I remember that, that even when I'd just go back to regular jiu-jitsu or whatever, it's like, man, I feel super aware of it. Like almost like you're anticipating, okay, I can get punched from here.

• 1:37:38Jocko Willink?

  I actually think about that all the time. I always think, like, I'll be rolling with Taylor. And cuz Taylor isn't like Andy, I don't think about it as much cuz Andy's more of a jujitsu fighter. But you know, Taylor, he's an MMA fighter. And so if he's on top of me for a round, like he's in my top half guard.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  And when we get done, I'll be like, I'm glad that wasn't MMA cuz you would have pulverized my head.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  You know, and now do some gaps open up when people start punching? Yeah, they do. Is there an opportunity? Yeah, there is, but you're gonna take some shots.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and then at the end of the day, all that is part of it. You know, so it's like if you're, if you're, okay, so here's a scenario I'd find myself in where the guy I'm going to get is a way better striker than me. Like way more experienced and just better. But my jujitsu is way better. So it's like dang, I gotta get this guy to the ground. So if we don't, eh, when we train this, it, I get that practice to be, okay, I'm gonna use this guy's striking to like get around him or something like that. Yeah. I'm not gonna like stand here and try to strike with him and get beat up this training system.

• 1:38:39Jocko Willink?

  But you do have to stand there long enough to get them to think, to get them to forget about you taking them down.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:38:44Jocko Willink?

  That's what I always, and you see that in MMA fights too.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  You can't just go in there and start shooting on the guy cuz they know that you're gonna try and take him down. Cuz they know their ground game is worse and so they're gonna defend that takedown.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  And gotta get him thinking about, you gotta get him thinking about that knockout. That they're gonna knock you out. And sometimes it takes two minutes, sometimes it takes three minutes, sometimes it takes a round and a half before you take your first shot.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and really to be real with you, it's, that's what this training is for. So in the beginning, you might not even be able to take that guy down because you're like, oh, I know this guy. He's that jujitsu guy. Now he's come training with us. He's gonna try to take me down and he's just gonna beat you up from the outside.

• 1:39:17Jocko Willink?

  And actually, yeah, what he'll do is he won't even beat you up. He'll, he won't even commit to his punches cuz he doesn't wanna overstep and, and give you any advantage on your takedown.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:26Jocko Willink?

  So he'll just stand it, like you said, standing outside attacking you.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I say that cuz that's kinda what happened to me. So I'd go in and then of course they'd just stay away or sprawl cuz they know it's coming kinda thing. And then, you know, as you reset from the straw sprawl, he but put the one, two, kinda on the, on the separation. I'm like, I don't know that kind of stuff yet.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  No big deal, one, two, crack, crack.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Just all around, you know?

• 1:39:45Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm saying, I'm saying it's funny because. When you say, you know, you take a one, two as you're getting away, but Those punches, they boy. They stay boy.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. But after a while, that's what I'm saying. You get that training. Just through the training, you're like, okay, I know how this is now. I can't, it's not like jujitsu where I can kind of, you know, just go and lock up and if I don't get to take down a whole guard kind of thing. These guys, they're not trying to grapple with you. They're trying to stand back up. You get that training, you know? So when you wind up, you know, being able to take them down and all this stuff, you can, like you'll have just way more of an advantage because you're aware of all these different elements that you might not get in just jujitsu class. You might get them, but you probably, probably don't. You get a guy who always wants to stand up. Right, in jujitsu class, try row with a guy in jujitsu, just straight jujitsu, who only wants to stand up, who just would rather die than be on the bottom hill stand. It's so annoying.

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  It's annoying. It's challenging. Something you need to learn to contend with because there are tactics that you can use as the guy on top to keep them down there.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Exactly, right. And you get MMA guys, especially if you're better than them at like the jujitsu element of it, that's what they're gonna do. So that's the training you're gonna get.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Check.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Boom. Next question.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Joko, as a leader of a team or business has decided to, okay, as a leader of a team, our business has decided to terminate one of my people. I disagree with their logic, but I'm not in a position to change the decision. What should I do to retain my influence to support the rest of my team, yet not compromise my values?

• 1:41:18Jocko Willink?

  That's a good question. That's a solid question. That's a tough question. It's a little bit tricky without the details of the situation, but, you know, I, I wonder what kind of relationship that the person that asked the question, I wonder what kind of relationship you have with the senior leadership that makes those decisions? Because you got to remember that our goal is to always have the relationships up the chain of command so that you can influence those decisions. And if you have that kind of relationship, then you can find out why that decision got made. And there might be things that you didn't know about some kind of strategic outcome that the decision, you know, has had an outbacked on an impact on, right? So if you didn't know it, but this guy had some kind of criminal situation going on and you didn't know it,

• 1:42:02Jocko Willink?

  then they can't talk about it because it's an illegal case. Okay. If you don't know, don't speculate, just go and ask. And then you can take whatever those reasons are and you can articulate them, you know, down the chain of command. And again, you want to, you want to ask this question in a smart way. You don't say, why did Bill get fired? Hey, why did Bill get fired? No, you say, hey, you know, from my perspective, it seemed like Bill was doing a good job. I want to kind of understand what you were seeing so that I can lead people better. If there's anything that I can make up for, I want to make sure I'm leading, you know, like all those things. You want to, you want to help their ego and make them feel good and make them feel like you're on board with the program and not make them feel like you're going in there and questioning their call because that's just an attack on their ego. So this is all these things. It's a basic things, right? The fundamental, I hate calling it basic. These are fundamental things, right?

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  This is the, this is the way it is. Standard. I should just say standard. That's what I should say. Standard stuff. You're trying to build a relationship. You don't want to go in but your head up against their ego. Then they get more defensive and next thing you know, they're going to fire another one of your guys on your team just to prove a point. You can get yourself, you can dig yourself that hole. But if you make your goal, hey, I'm going to build a relationship with my boss. That's what you are trying to do. Now,

• 1:43:13Jocko Willink?

  if you find out why, then you can articulate that to the rest of the team and

• 1:43:19Jocko Willink?

  and the way that you maintain your values is by maintaining your values. Okay. So just because there's a situation that or decision that gets made that you don't agree with doesn't mean that you compromised your values. Like your boss can make a decision and that does that that you don't agree with. That doesn't mean that your values are compromised unless it's like an illegal or it's an immoral or it's an unethical situation, which by the way, a firing could be one of those things, right? The guy could be firing because he wasn't.

• 1:43:47Jocko Willink?

  You know, what wouldn't, hey, he wouldn't give me the, the keys to the vehicle for the weekend. So I could use it on my private time and I'm going to fire him now. Like that's unethical, right? There's a problem there. So now your values definitely, if you just remain silently, you're kind of compromising your values. So there are times when you may have to stand up, but bosses make decisions. That's what they do and we do our best to influence them. Now, if they decide something we don't like, then yes, we ask why. And if we don't like their explanation, then we try and explain our case. We try and explain why we thought Bill should have been, not been fired. Now you're not always going to be right. You're not always going to be right. And let me tell you something else.

• 1:44:30Jocko Willink?

  Don't argue about six and one, half dozen the other. Bill might've been on the fence and they decide, you know what? We've had enough trouble with Bill, we're getting rid of him. And maybe there's valid reasons why Bill should have said, but it's like, it could have gone 60, 40. Are you going to put your reputation and your relationship with your boss on the line over that little thing? Now, again, I understand firing people is a big deal. It's not small. It's not a little thing, especially you have a good relationship. He's on your team. He's got kids, you know, like all these things are there. So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to break down and, and negatively impact your relationship with your boss over this? So that in the future, you have even less influence? What happens when they go to fire Mike? And you haven't, and all you did was go, hey, why'd you do this? This was stupid.

• 1:45:15Jocko Willink?

  They're going to fire Mike and they're not going to listen to a damn thing you said. You want to build a relationship with them.

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  You can, you can explain what your viewpoint is and what you would have done. Now, this is like doubt, this is talking to your team. You can explain what your viewpoint was and what you would have done. But you also, you don't want to, you don't want to, you want to be gentle, right? As long as you explain, if you explain that, hey, I would have done something different. And you, you also explain that the boss, it was a tough decision and the boss made the call. And that the best thing that we can do as a team is support the boss. So we can garner more influence over these situations in the future. That's good.

• 1:45:55Jocko Willink?

  And you know what, one of the best things you could do here with your team is you can even explain that it's your fault the decision got made, right? You say, "Look, I haven't built a good enough relationship with the boss. That's why he fired Bill. I'm working on it. I'm gonna do it better. We're gonna give him the support that he needs so we can stop this thing from hap- this type of thing from happening in the future." So you don't want to throw your boss under the bus. It's much, much better to take ownership of it. All day, all day. If you throw your boss under the bus and you create an antagonistic relationship, it's bad for you, it's bad for your boss, and it's bad for your team, and it's bad for your whole organization.

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  I get it, and there's a dichotomy here. Because if your boss totally fired someone with not good reason, and it was a great guy, and if you just jump on board with the boss, you're gonna look weak. So, do you have to balance that? Yes, you have to be honest with your people. You have to explain what's going on. That's why I think taking ownership is one of the best things to do. Your boss does something that's totally out of line? Hey, look, here's what the boss did. This is my fault, and here's what I'm gonna do to fix it. I'm gonna build a better relationship. I'm gonna get more influence. That's what I need to do. I obviously let you guys down. I'm not gonna let it happen again.

• 1:47:07Jocko Willink?

  That brings your team closer to you, rather than saying, "Hey, the boss was- boss is an idiot. He doesn't get it." You gotta be- people don't actually even respect that, by the way. They don't actually even respect that.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying they say, "Hey, that's the boss's decision, and that's- you know what? We just support the boss." I'm not saying that. It's a dichotomy. It's a balance that you have to- you have to carefully walk.

• 1:47:33Jocko Willink?

  Compromise, compromise on decisions and directions and plans doesn't hurt. You know, he's talking about compromising. It's like, compromise is okay.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is. Compromise is okay. Again, as long as you're not compromising your personal values, your ethics. But compromising about a decision? That's the way the world works. Don't let your ego get into it. Don't let your ego. So, keep building, keep building relationships, take ownership of the decisions, and support the team. Keep building relationships, not just up the chain of command, but down, so that you can bring it all together.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  Go.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Question Frogman.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Do you think it's always a bad thing to be thought of as slightly unapproachable as a leader?

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so this is another question about the dichotomy of leadership. It's another question about balance and it's strangely worded question by the way from this Scotsman who I know.

• 1:48:41Jocko Willink?

  It's because he uses the question, he uses the word always and usually always is always and never, right? When you use those, they usually don't hold up. Is it always a bad thing?

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:53Jocko Willink?

  But then he kind of, he kind of softens the always by saying slightly unapproachable. So we give him a fairly low grade on this question.

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  But luckily, the, the concept of the question, we give him a high grade, which is, is it,

• 1:49:15Jocko Willink?

  is it, should you be unapproachable, slightly unapproachable? Should you be? That's the real question. Should you be slightly unapproachable as a leader? Well, there's, this is, this is a question about dichotomy. The, the question is about balance. Do you want to have people approach you about every little problem or issue as a boss? Do you want to have that happen? No, you don't. Right? Do you want to be the easy button where you have to answer every single question and make every decision? If you're too approachable, that's where you're going to find yourself. Now, at the same time, at the other end of the spectrum, do you want your team to never approach you ever? Because you're unapproachable?

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:51Jocko Willink?

  No, you don't want that. Do you want them to, to be scared or intimidated from giving you good, honest feedback or good suggestions about the way you're doing things? Do you, do you not want that to happen because you're too unapproachable? Of course not. So those are the dichotomies. You can be too, too approachable and be the easy button, or you can be too aloof and too distant and too unapproachable that you don't even know what's happening on the front lines and you don't get any input from them. The extremes are bad. So what you want to do is you want to balance those two dichotomies. Be in the middle. Be approachable, but not overly approachable. And you'll be good.

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward. I think we've got time for one more.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  Jaco, what do you do when you're broken?

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  What do I do when I'm broken?

• 1:50:54Speaker 02

  When I'm broken,

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  I relish it. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna use it.

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  Cause

• 1:51:08Speaker 02

  if I'm broken, then I just found my limitations.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  And until I know what my limitations are, how can I push them?

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  How can I get better?

• 1:51:24Speaker 02

  But once, once I see it, once I feel it, once I see where I was broken, then I can attack that weakness. I can fill in that gap.

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  I can reinforce that breach.

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  If you break, it means it's time to fortify your will to make it stronger.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  And look, there's, there's all kinds of different ways to break.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  You can break physically, you can break mentally, you can break your heart, you can break your spirit, and none of those are fun, and all of those are gonna leave a mark.

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  But the mark that they leave can be the mark of victory, or it can be the mark of defeat.

• 1:52:35Speaker 02

  Because every time you break in, in every way that you break, while it's a chance, it's definitely a chance for you to give up and for you to just to fall apart.

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  But there's also opportunity.

• 1:52:57Speaker 02

  There's opportunity to get stronger and get smarter and get faster and get tougher and get more stable and get more resilient and get

• 1:53:11Speaker 02

  better.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  When you break,

• 1:53:23Speaker 02

  you have the opportunity to show the world, the whole world, what you are really made of.

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  So, so if you break, if, if you break,

• 1:53:44Speaker 02

  the fight isn't over.

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  In fact, if you break, the fight is just beginning.

• 1:53:57Speaker 02

  And as you crawl up and out of that dismal and wretched place, covered, and you're covered in blood and sweat and dirt and filth as you rise above what you were.

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  And as you take the form of, of who you are supposed to be,

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  you will see that in the very act of standing up, in the very act of fighting on, you will become and you will remain

• 1:54:42Speaker 02

  unbroken.

• 1:54:49Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So Echo Charles, speaking of getting stronger and faster and tougher and better.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  Sure, better.

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you've got some ways we could, you know, support ourselves with those goals.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, facilitate getting better and stronger.

• 1:55:15Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Push the breaking point. I'll tell you that. That'll push your breaking point, especially the joint warfare part.

• 1:55:22Jocko Willink?

  Coming right in, coming in hot.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  No less. Okay, so start with the origin, right? Origin. American made.

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're at the origin immersion camp right now. We're sorry that you're not here. We're up here in Maine.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Or we're happy that you are here.

• 1:55:40Jocko Willink?

  Or yeah, if you're here, we're happy you're here. Yeah, definitely.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Oh, there's a lot of people in the game.

• 1:55:43Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of people in the game. A lot of people heard us say on the podcast, come to the origin camp and they're here.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  And guess what?

• 1:55:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in force. It's awesome. Every level. How many black belts are here?

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Dang, I don't know.

• 1:55:55Jocko Willink?

  A lot. Yeah. How many white belts are here?

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:55:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. How many people have never trained jiu jitsu?

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:56:01Jocko Willink?

  A decent number.

• 1:56:02Speaker 01

  Okay, to get to put into context, this is, I think we had to do this, right? Or we just did. Nonetheless, this is what we did.

• 1:56:09Jocko Willink?

  We're breaking up.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we're, everyone convenes in the morning, right? On the big mats and they're like, hey,

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  who hasn't had any experience at all, or you know, under however a month or a month, yeah, or something like that. Go with Jaco guys over here to this other mat.

• 1:56:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  The other mat was full. It was full.

• 1:56:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  So it's, it's like, it's like, the point is, it's not just like people who want to just, you know, get after their jiu jitsu game and they've been in it for, you know, years and years. And they want to camp out and do jiu jitsu. It's not that.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it's cool. There's a lot of different, like, like, yes, like yesterday, the Deco and I taught the, taught the new jiu jitsu people. Today, I think it was the Deco and Hafa and I stayed down with the. The colored belts, right?

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  More.

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  I think there's, I think there's probably the same number of black belts here. As people that their first day ever.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:06Jocko Willink?

  On the mats was here.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think it's about the same number, what like 20, 20 of each. 20 people that have never trained jujitsu before and 20 people that have their black belts in jujitsu. There's like those two and then there's everyone in between.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  This guy, um, I was talking to this guy, he's like, he goes, yeah, today's my second day. I was like, oh yeah, right on where, where, you know, when was your first day, where was he goes, oh yeah, here yesterday. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot. I came one day after he's got here. It's like sweet.

• 1:57:31Jocko Willink?

  Crazy. So that's where we are right now.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:57:33Jocko Willink?

  Took everyone to the factory.

• 1:57:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:35Jocko Willink?

  The origin factory in Farmington, Maine. Saw where everything is made.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time. So what do we have? Gee's rash guard. There's a new gee. You guys were extra fired up about. Extra, extra fired up. Oh, was that, is that a DL thing?

• 1:57:51Jocko Willink?

  It's definitely, well, we can't show anybody, but we do have a, a new gee coming.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:57Jocko Willink?

  And we'll say it's, it's very awesome.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  Legit.

• 1:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, speaking of gee's origin, the best gee's, the best gee's hands down. Everyone knows already. It's like, what do you call it? It's common knowledge. Anyway, made in America. A hundred percent made in America. Also rash guards, all kinds of jujitsu stuff. Those shorts, those new shorts they came out with approved. Big time.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  But yeah, they got some, some sweat suits too, joggers, shirts and whatnot. All good stuff.

• 1:58:25Jocko Willink?

  Supplements.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, uh, the supplements, these are supplements that, well, how do I pick what supplements I, I'm gonna make? It's supplements that I've taken.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:36Jocko Willink?

  And dial them in. The protein, the milk.

• 1:58:41Jocko Willink?

  Tastes good. Is good. No sugar. What's it got? One carb, two carbs, something like that?

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:48Jocko Willink?

  Something like that.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:58:49Jocko Willink?

  Just a little tasty dessert.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  Dessert. But it's really what it is.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You were talking about joint warfare. We've got joint warfare. We got krill oil, all good. We got discipline. You pre, I saw a lot of people drinking discipline, like heading to the mats. A lot of people drinking that discipline.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Someone said it was in that big cooler. I didn't go over there and check. That would make sense.

• 1:59:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it's, so we got that.

• 1:59:15Jocko Willink?

  That's Origin Maine, OriginMaine.com. You get all that. That's our company. We're making all this stuff and we're gonna keep making stuff until, until we make everything that we use. That's the goal.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And these are especially the joint stuff, man. That, the joint stuff one is the one that is like an everyday go-to. In my case, that's Molk too. Where I'm every day, I'm pounding Molk on the Molk train.

• 1:59:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and you, you surprised me earlier because I asked you, because you always say you're on the Molk train fully, or you say you're fully on the Molk train. Usually you say, yeah, usually you say you're on the Molk train fully.

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  Just, sir, I am.

• 1:59:52Jocko Willink?

  And I asked you, could someone be partially on the Molk train? And you said that that was in fact possible. I don't know how that's possible, but.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Well, you would have to.

• 2:00:01Jocko Willink?

  How many Molk, how many Molk a day certifies you as being on the Molk train?

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  At least one a day.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's pretty, that's, that's doable. That's not crazy.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  But if you're pounding Molk every day, that's the Molk train regardless. But when you're fully on the Molk train.

• 2:00:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay. How many Molk a day is fully on the Molk train?

• 2:00:20Speaker 01

  That's like two, sometimes three.

• 2:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Imagine, so basically with every meal.

• 2:00:25Jocko Willink?

  Two scoops?

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  No, no, two hit, two situations. To me, two scoops is minimum for one.

• 2:00:33Jocko Willink?

  That's one drink. Two scoops. See, that's the thing is I've got this new thing where I do these little hitters.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:38Jocko Willink?

  Do these little hitters.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  I'm not on the hitter situation.

• 2:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Me and Theo Vaughn, we're hanging out, we're talking about hitters, but he doesn't even know about Molk. I gotta send him some Molk.

• 2:00:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:45Jocko Willink?

  So he can have a hitter. A hitter is one scoop. One scoop, it doesn't, that's the thing is it doesn't make, because when I have a double shot of Molk, I'm full. Right. There's no, there's no room, you know, I'm not, and, and I'm gonna take some time to digest, right? That's a meal. Basically, you just ate a steak, a big one. That's how I feel.

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, if I have, if I have a one scoop hitter. Get one of those hitters.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:01:14Jocko Willink?

  Then you can go, yeah, you can keep moving. You can work out like forty five minutes later. You can be in the gym.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:01:18Jocko Willink?

  Be on the mat.

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  That makes sense. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't take it like I'll do it for every time like if I work out that I'll eat after I work out.

• 2:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, most of the time, but okay. So here's the situation. Got home the other day, woke up in a crappy hotel somewhere early in the morning, early morning flight. Woke up, didn't work out at the hotel early morning because I knew I was heading back to my house where I could be in my home gym. So waited, got home, was hungry, did a hitter. Yeah, because I was hung because the neck the night before, guess what? Didn't eat. Why didn't eat was working. So got home. It was, I don't know, it was like ten, got home. Wanted to, wanted to eat something, but still wanted to work out before lunch hitter.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. And then boom, still got work to do. Boom.

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  And then guess what? Lunchtime came, wasn't that hungry?

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:08Jocko Willink?

  That hitter.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, man. So you just sort of fit it in your whole thing. But yeah, and then consider the joint work for in the krill oil. Boom. Every day joint squared away.

• 2:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  I didn't mean for that to rhyme, but it does. It's all good.

• 2:02:22Jocko Willink?

  Skills.

• 2:02:23Speaker 01

  Also, good way to support. We have a store. Technically, Jaco has a store. I helped make it. So we have a store.

• 2:02:32Jocko Willink?

  Affirmative.

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  Either way, it's called Jaco's store. Anyway.

• 2:02:35Jocko Willink?

  Rash guards are available. Rash guards under a gi. Yes or no? What's your opinion?

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, whatever you like.

• 2:02:42Jocko Willink?

  First of all, some people mandate it. There's some schools that it is mandatory. You will wear a rash guard under your gi. There's some schools where you're not allowed to. Are you allowed? Can you wear them in a turn? Some tournaments you're allowed to. Some tournaments you're not allowed to. There's some rules out there. So find that out and then you can get one of these rash guards that say something on them like good after it or something like that.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:03:04Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, rash guards, T shirts, you can get hats.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Some good hats on there.

• 2:03:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  Flex fit if you're into it. Okay, Jaco's not into flex fit.

• 2:03:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Okay, I dig it.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  Did we figure out the numbers yet? Figure out which is more popular?

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:03:20Jocko Willink?

  Which one, which one do people like more? We don't know yet.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  We don't know yet. I don't know.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  I remember the fa- I remember the flex fit phase, but I think we're out of it, man. I think we're back to, I think everyone in America is back to truckers.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  Oh, like that's kind of what we're doing now?

• 2:03:32Jocko Willink?

  I think that's what America, I think America's on board with trucker hats. I could be wrong though, because we know my fashion sense is completely in the dark.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Non-existent. Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right about that. So yeah, I don't know. I'll find out and report back. But if you want a shirt, you know, these shirts, the ones that say discipline equals freedom, boom. That's where you can get them. Jaco's store. Also the one with Jaco's head on it. This is good.

• 2:03:56Jocko Willink?

  More than a few people have said, hey, man, I really like, you know, your stuff, but I'm not wearing a shirt with your giant head on it.

• 2:04:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not, it's not for everybody.

• 2:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Not for everyone.

• 2:04:05Speaker 01

  Not for everybody. Somebody said, hey, is there a shirt with your head on it to me?

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  And it reminded me, wow, yes, it is.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  There is.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  One Jaco designed.

• 2:04:17Jocko Willink?

  The dang shirt.

• 2:04:18Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah, so that's, that's one little factoid. What's a factoid? A small fact?

• 2:04:24Jocko Willink?

  Small fact, yeah, I believe.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  That, that many people don't know. A lot of the designs that we're part of, like, you know, Echelon Front and, you know, some of these designs. Jaco, Jaco, you made the designs. You didn't make the official one, but you like with your left hand or whatever, like you drew the design.

• 2:04:41Jocko Willink?

  The concept is mine.

• 2:04:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:42Jocko Willink?

  The concept is mine.

• 2:04:43Speaker 01

  But you physically drew it though. That's the thing. See what I'm saying? It's not like you said, hey, I wanted to do this and say that. You like drew it out.

• 2:04:50Jocko Willink?

  A picture's worth a thousand words. I'm not writing you a thousand word paragraph with that Echelon Front signal or what the Jocko podcast thing is gonna look like or what the Jaco white tee, whatever. Gonna draw it. Boom, here it is. Do it.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you're technically a designer.

• 2:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's gonna be crazy.

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. People don't know that. Now they do. Nonetheless, it's called jacostore.com. Yeah, man, get something, represent big time.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  Big time.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes and Stitcher if you have Android. That's, that's the big one for Android.

• 2:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  I think they have iTunes for Android. I don't know. Either way, whatever you use to stream podcasts. Subscribe if you haven't already.

• 2:05:30Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget about the Warrior Kid Podcast. Working on, it's, uh, we've got 16 out right now, I think. Maybe 17 out right now. But anyways, more comment on that. And a lot of the good feedback I'm getting is that the kids want to listen to them over and over and over again, which is kind of cool. So I'll make more so kids can listen to more of them. And there's stuff in there. It's Uncle Jake answering questions. You might think it's like questions for little tiny kids that you don't get anything out of. I think I was just talking to some people at camp. Uh, I was talking to this one, one girl and she was saying, yeah, I've, I've, she's like, I'm totally into the Warrior Kid Podcast.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  Come on, I'm on number 10 right now. It's really good. So she's like, those questions are for everybody. I'm like, hey, right on. So, yeah. Uncle Jake has a little something to teach everybody. You know, that's the way it is. Also YouTube, we got YouTube. YouTube channel. If you want to see Echo's legit videos, we also owe the videos we spoke of. So we're getting, we need to get those done. Maybe when we get back to San Diego.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:26Jocko Willink?

  The two, um, let's call them, yeah, I would say life changing, but they were two instructional life videos.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:35Jocko Willink?

  About tips. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's much more appropriate. That's good. So you can also see Echo's legit videos.

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  Enhanced?

• 2:06:45Jocko Willink?

  Enhanced videos too.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, yeah. YouTube's a good one. Good way to support. Also on it, on it.com slash Jaco, by the way. It's where you can get good workout gear, legit workout gear. Want to vary up your workouts. Also they, they have a lot of cool other stuff. There's this tri blend peanut butter. It's, but it's not peanut butter. It's peanut butter, almond butter. And I think cashew. So it's like an enhanced peanut butter scenario. That's what you use it for. It's good. Anyway, they got a lot of cool stuff on there. Like that, like Warrior Bars and whatnot.

• 2:07:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  Warrior Bars can be, it's like a.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Beef jerky, but not jerky. It's like a, you know, look at it's good, super um, dense in like protein and nutrient scenario. Anyway, on it.com slash Jaco, good spot.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget, we got the psychological psychological warfare album that you can get that has discussions, tracks, if you will, about how to overcome some moments of weakness that you might hit. And we are working on the next one. We're not quite there yet. So we're working on it. But yeah, psychological warfare, it's you can get that anywhere iTunes, Google Play, whatever MP3 platforms are out there.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, to get them. Also, Jaco White Tea.

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  The phenomenon.

• 2:08:10Speaker 01

  It's funny, like I know, and people know already, I know, I never really was into tea. Actually, even when the, the, what do you call the dry tea came out, I was like, cool, because I was, you know, I'm on the buzz.

• 2:08:20Jocko Willink?

  You were just, you were just playing, you were just going along with it.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  But in a way, the here's the thing, though, I was going along with it. I was giving, I was like, what do you call it?

• 2:08:27Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna go back and listen to those podcasts and see if you were trying to act like you were in the game, even though that we now know you weren't. That's gonna make you whole, your whole deal suspect.

• 2:08:35Speaker 01

  Put it, no, put it this way, I was in the game, but it was like, because I was like on the hype train, you know, you know how like, when I was like, hey, man, everybody, everyone's doing this new thing. And you're like, oh, shit, I'm down.

• 2:08:45Jocko Willink?

  That just made you sound worse.

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  Well, hey, man, that's the truth.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  Everyone's gonna be suspect. How do we even know what you're saying right now? It's true about it.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Well, maybe it's all hype. Maybe, maybe not. You gotta find out for yourself. That's the thing.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  Echo, are you on the hype train or the hype train? That's the question. Maybe this is just.

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  Here's the thing. So I taste, I'm like, hey, cool, cool. But it kinda, you know, kinda wore off. I don't drink tea that much. But the cans came out and what am I doing pounding freaking tea all day? Is that hype? No, because I wouldn't be pounding it every day. See what I'm saying?

• 2:09:16Jocko Willink?

  You wouldn't be texting me for more boxes to be delivered to your home.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:21Jocko Willink?

  If you weren't on the actual tea train.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, we wouldn't be running out. I'll tell you that. That wouldn't be the case.

• 2:09:27Jocko Willink?

  JP JP sends me pictures of just Jaco White teas at a time. He asked me the other day, how much, how much, what, is there any amount of Jaco White tea that's not healthy?

• 2:09:38Speaker 02

  You gotta see, you gotta find out.

• 2:09:40Jocko Willink?

  He's like fully on the train. He might be one level over the train and into like the zone of whatever addiction. Uh, yeah. So Jocko Books, got some out there. Way of the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission, those two books. Man, that's one thing, being up here, how many, how many people have come up to me and said, my kid's doing jujitsu, my kid's doing awesome school, my kid's doing pulps. Thank you so much for writing the Warrior Kid books. So if you want your kid to work out, to train hard, to eat right, to study, to do good in school. Hey, do those sound like they might be good things? Yes. Get your book, get the Way of the Warrior Kid. Your kid is not going to listen to you as much as they're going to listen to an outside source. Make the outside source something that you agree with. Something that's tell them to work

• 2:10:22Jocko Willink?

  hard, study hard, train hard. Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. Also got the Discipline and Course Freedom Field Manual. I like seeing how many people give this as a gift to people. You know, just got this as a gift. I'll see that on social media. And then they get all stoked on it. So that's a little instruction manual on how to get after it, period. If you want the audio version, it is not on Audible. It is on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play as an album.

• 2:10:58Jocko Willink?

  Extreme Ownership, that's the book that Leif and I wrote. Combat Leadership Lessons,

• 2:11:04Jocko Willink?

  that you can apply to your business, to your life. Dichotomy of Leadership. Listen to Podcast 138, we read a couple excerpts from it. That's coming out September 25th. If you want to get a copy of first edition, order it now. If you want third edition, fourth edition, if you want to be walking around with a big flag that says, hey, I procrastinated, I'm a procrastinator, I waited.

• 2:11:29Jocko Willink?

  I didn't execute. I didn't prioritize and execute. I didn't keep things simple. If you want to have that flag, you want to sport that flag, hold off, don't order it. Get the fourth edition. Those editions are gonna go out quick because here's the deal. The, the, the, um, publishers there. Yeah, conservative. Sure. We don't really, I know your first books, your first few books have sold well, but you know, that's no guarantee for the next one. We might just, you know, we probably should only run this many and we don't know, you know, just to see. And we can run more. It takes them a little bit more time for people to get them. It's okay. They'll live. Like, no, actually they won't. They'll actually die if they don't get it in time. So, uh, get that first edition going.

• 2:12:11Jocko Willink?

  Make, now this is cool. If we as a group order enough now, everyone in that first group will get first edition. Cause they'll print more first editions, which is the goal. That way more people don't have to bear the shame. Yeah. And it's like. And some people say, oh, I, you know, I, I had first edition, but I gave it away and now I have a new one. Don't do that. Keep the first edition. Is that kind of like when you? Somebody sent me the British edition of About Face. First edition, British edition. It's a different cover of About Face. So somebody sent me from England, uh, About Face, the book, England copy, British one. So I got that in my bookshelf.

• 2:12:57Jocko Willink?

  That's different though. One day I want to, I want to take pictures. So I, I like have things that are the same. Like when I, like I have flip flops. I wear flip flops around. Sure. I have nine pairs all the same. I have About Face. I got 10, 12 copies of it just racked up. Cool. I got my same watch. You know how many of these watches I got? I think I got six. One of them might be broken. No, a couple of them are broken, but I keep them for spare parts. What kind of, what kind of running shoes do I have? It's all the same. Workout shoes there. My workout shoes, my running shoes are all the same. Boom. The, what about my workout clothing? Well, all the same. Never think about it. What about that shirt? That victory shirt? Victory shirt's the same. I only these, I got, I got a lot of them. So I, we could go in my house and just like take a picture of watches,

• 2:13:40Jocko Willink?

  flip flops, sneakers, uh, shorts, even my shorts. I wear the same damn shorts all the time. So we're just, we're just doing it. Yeah. But, uh, for sending me and I'm, I'm gonna send, the person that sent me the British edition, I'm gonna send him some copies of.

• 2:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Some books of mine. Um, hey, on top of that, we got a leadership consulting company.

• 2:14:06Jocko Willink?

  Me, Leif Babin, JP Donnell, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochrane, Mike Sorelli. We solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. Now, if you want us to come in as consultants and look at what your situation is and help you align your leadership. Go to echelonfront.com. If you want one of us to come and speak to your company, go to echelonfront.com. That's what you don't call a speaking agency.

• 2:14:36Jocko Willink?

  Just go to echelonfront.com. We have the muster real close to sold out. I'm not sure if it's sold out yet, but muster 006 San Francisco, October 17th and 18th, registered extremeownership.com. That's the premier leadership conference in the world. Sure. I think so. Actually, no, in the universe. Sure. Cause I don't think they have any good leadership conferences on Mars. I think ours is better. If they do have one. Yeah. It's probably all hot.

• 2:15:10Jocko Willink?

  Cold. So, yeah, muster 006. Occasionally you still get questions like, hey, I'm 58 years old and I have a bad knee. Would I be able to do the muster? The answer is yes. The muster is anyone can do. The physical demands at the muster are very, very little. If any, if you don't, you don't have to come and do the morning PTs, the morning physical training. You can completely not come to that. You can, you're more than welcome to come. And if you come, you can just watch, or you could come, or you could do the minimum that you can do, and that's fine. So there's no minimum physical standards for participation at the muster. If you feel like you need to come, come. And also on top of the muster, we have another event that we're doing for

• 2:15:52Jocko Willink?

  uniform personnel. So military, law enforcement, border patrol, firefighters, corrections officers, I've been adding that one in, paramedics, other first responders, roll call 001, September 21st in Dallas, Texas. It's a one day leadership seminar for those folks in those dynamic leadership environments.

• 2:16:15Jocko Willink?

  Registration is going to close, so register, you can also register for that and the muster at extremeownership.com. And of course, we also now have EF Overwatch. We are connecting Spec Ops veterans and the companies that want to hire Spec Ops veterans and Combat Aviation. Combat Aviation and Spec Ops, companies need leaders out there and we are, we have leaders that we're connected with, so we're trying to place them. That's EFOverwatch.com. And right now, we've got an awesome response from all of our other brothers and sisters in the military. So, we're working on something right now to open up this to everyone.

• 2:16:57Jocko Willink?

  And until we see you at the muster or at the roll call, or maybe we won't even see you until another year from now at the immersion camp next time in Maine. But until then, if you want to continue hanging out with us virtually, we are all up on the interwebs on Instagram, Twitter, and on that visible. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thanks to the military people around the world, holding the line worldwide. Thank you for your service. And in America, police, law enforcement, correctional officers, firefighters, Border Patrol,

• 2:17:40Jocko Willink?

  paramedics, other first responders, thank you for holding the line here at home.

• 2:17:47Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else, remember that life is not easy. That it's not supposed to be easy. Life is a test and it's a hard test. And sometimes you might do great on that test.

• 2:18:04Jocko Willink?

  And that's super.

• 2:18:08Jocko Willink?

  But sometimes that test doesn't go so well.

• 2:18:12Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes you might falter and sometimes you might fail and sometimes you might even break. And when that happens, use it.

• 2:18:23Speaker 02

  Use it to make yourself faster and stronger and smarter and better. And take a look at how and why you broke so that it does not happen again. Identify your weaknesses, come up with a plan of attack, and get after it.

• 2:18:45Speaker 02

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.