468: Thomas Tull—Adjacent to Greatness

Mike chats with billionaire entrepreneur and producer Thomas Tull, a man whose career has repeatedly put him just one degree away from greatness. Tull talks about his ownership stakes in professional sports teams including his beloved Pittsburgh Steelers, how he helped create a data-driven approach to marketing blockbuster films through Legendary Pictures and why understanding audiences mattered as much as the movies themselves. Along the way, Tull explains how it feels when his rock band, Ghost Hounds, takes the stage to open for none other than The Rolling Stones.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  And welcome to another truly delightful episode of The Way I Heard It. I'm Mike Rowe. This one is called Adjacent to Greatness. Technically, I think it's called Thomas Tull Adjacent to Greatness. Chuck, that's how you want to put it in the...

• 0:18Speaker 01

  That's the way it'll be written.

• 0:20Mike Rowe?

  I see.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:21Mike Rowe?

  Well, it doesn't much matter how you write it. The facts around Thomas Tull and his reason for coming here today are worth really understanding, I think. This hasn't happened before. I've talked to billionaires before.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, there've been a few. Frank McCourt.

• 0:36Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Are there any other billionaires?

• 0:39Mike Rowe?

  No, I don't think so. I think that's basically it. Actually, Frank owned a chunk or all of the Dodgers and...

• 0:47Speaker 01

  And now he owns the parking lot.

• 0:48Mike Rowe?

  And now he owns the parking lot, right.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  That's true, yeah.

• 0:50Mike Rowe?

  Right. Thomas Tull, on the other hand, has an interest in the New York Yankees and the Pittsburgh Steelers.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 0:56Mike Rowe?

  And if you don't know him from that, you might know him from a little startup called Legendary Films, which he formed some time ago. Sold it, I think, in 2017 for about, I don't know, three and a half billion dollars. He made movies like The Hangover.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, the whole series, I believe, yeah.

• 1:18Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, the whole series. Inception.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Dark Knight.

• 1:21Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  I'm Batman.

• 1:22Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. And 300, I think, was the first one that came out?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Yes, 300, yeah.

• 1:28Mike Rowe?

  What he did in the movie business is really interesting. He figured out a new way to market hits. He told me once, not in this conversation, but why would I spend money... There's a 14-year-old kid wearing a Batman shirt.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42Mike Rowe?

  Right? Why am I going to advertise to that kid? He's coming, no matter what I do.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46Mike Rowe?

  Right? And then, you know, there's my mom. I could give her two free tickets and 20 bucks for popcorn.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, not going to do it.

• 1:52Mike Rowe?

  And she's not coming.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54Mike Rowe?

  So, early, early on, Thomas figured out a better way to market films, and Legendary was born.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:02Mike Rowe?

  Now, if you don't know him from that, maybe you know him from a little band he plays in called Ghost Hounds that tours with and opens for the Rolling Stones.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I haven't heard of them.

• 2:15Mike Rowe?

  Right, but Google them. They're amazing.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  No, I mean, the Rolling Stones, never heard of them.

• 2:19Mike Rowe?

  Oh, my gosh. We have such a fun digression talking about the Rolling Stones. And a documentary that I can't recommend enough called 12 Feet From Stardom. Which led Thomas to share the secret to his success. Which basically comes down to being adjacent to greatness.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:39Mike Rowe?

  Doesn't matter if it's an athlete, doesn't matter if it's Mick Jagger. Doesn't matter if it's Christopher Nolan, a famous director, Bradley Cooper, a great actor.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:48Mike Rowe?

  He loves to stay in the shadows. He loves to amplify the greatness around him. And I tell you all this because I ran into the guy accidentally at an energy conference, a summit back in July in Pittsburgh. He introduced himself and said he'd like to chat about my foundation sometime. I didn't really know who he was. As I'm sure many of you don't either, because he works pretty hard and staying under the radar.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:14Mike Rowe?

  But once you dig in, good grief, this guy's been there and he's done that. And he's serious as he can be about reinvigorating the skilled trades, about getting our workforce back on its feet, about building data centers, which he believes is an absolute essential thing to do if we don't want to lose to China.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:37Mike Rowe?

  Which frankly, we're on, we're on a road to doing right now if we can't turn this train around. So, that's what Thomas wanted to talk about, and boy, do we. What's most interesting to me is that he flew out here to do this. A guy who's touring with the Stones, running a couple of major franchises. One in football, one in baseball, and still up to his neck with a company called Tulco, which is investing in all kinds of crazy startups and well-established companies that are doing great things. The fact that he would make the time to have the conversation you're about to hear is really flattering to me.

• 4:22Mike Rowe?

  And the fact that he's as interesting as he is, I think is going to be entirely delightful for you. Which is why I began by saying, "Welcome to another delightful episode."

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I love how you bookend stuff.

• 4:35Mike Rowe?

  I do try and land the plane when I can.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Very, very good, yeah, yeah.

• 4:39Mike Rowe?

  You're gonna like him. He puts his money where his mouth is in so many ways. And I'm proud to call him a new friend of mine. Thomas Tull, right after this.

• 4:53Mike Rowe?

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• 5:37Mike Rowe?

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• 6:22Mike Rowe?

  Thank you. Thank you for, Jesus Taylor, you all right?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  It's a ruckus.

• 6:28Mike Rowe?

  It is a ruckus. It's a perfect way to start this conversation, actually, with a ruckus. You've made ruckuses your whole life, Thomas. Do you like Tom or Thomas?

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Thomas. Tom Tull sounds even dumber than I am, so I'll go with the two syllable thing.

• 6:45Mike Rowe?

  I mean, I agonized over Mike versus Michael for a while because I had friends who were all Michael. And then ultimately, I thought, well, I'll distinguish myself with a shortened, more familiar moniker. But if I had to do it again, I probably would have gone with Michael. It's a bit more.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  And in the opera thing.

• 7:03Mike Rowe?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. But that too was just a weird sort of detour in a long, circuitous, kind of Forrest Gumpian journey.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Eclectics good.

• 7:16Mike Rowe?

  You would know.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, whether by accident or whatever, it just keeps things interesting.

• 7:23Mike Rowe?

  Um, what are you doing here, man? And I ask you that because I am familiar with you, more familiar today than I was when we met in July, maybe?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah.

• 7:35Mike Rowe?

  In your hometown?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, Pittsburgh.

• 7:38Mike Rowe?

  So, I didn't know what I was really walking into. I knew it was an energy summit. I got there the night before. I saw the Republican senator. I saw the Democratic senator. I saw you. I saw a lot of big shots at Carnegie Mellon. I saw Chris Wright from Energy. I saw Lutnick from Commerce. I'm sitting between the two of them, mouthing off. I met the President of the United States. And for the first time since I've been sort of paying attention, or trying to pay attention, to what's going on in our country around the whole labor force thing.

• 8:22Mike Rowe?

  I felt like the memo had gone out and some important people had read it. And I was finally in the room with some big shots who were taking all of this really, really seriously. And when you pulled me aside and said, hey, we should chat. Yeah, I said, anytime. And then you showed up here on the other side of the country to chat. Ergo, the question, what are you doing here?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Well, look, I don't do a lot of, unless people have insomnia and they ask me to talk. But I think seemingly your core issue, which is workforce education, workforce opportunity, as well as your 12 pillars.

• 9:07Mike Rowe?

  My sweat pledge.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Is important. And I think right now, there's a lot of strife, there's a lot of vitriol in our country. We still have the greatest country by far in the world, and that ideal and concept is worth fighting for. And I think there are some issues that we've run out of time on and need to sort of get together and row in the same direction. And that energy conference was one of the things that, to me, gave me hope. You had, instead of Democrats and Republicans, at that event, it felt like Americans, understanding that we have a real,

• 9:48Speaker 02

  both a threat and an opportunity, vis a vis our global adversaries who don't wish us well. And in terms of the tech race around artificial intelligence, soon to come quantum, what it's going to take to power that race and how we better get to it. And it just felt like really good energy. And it was in Western Pennsylvania, and I just thought, you know, Dave McCormick did a great job organizing it. And, you know, and I thought it was great that you were there, because, to my knowledge, you're not a tech or an energy guy, but you're an American guy.

• 10:30Mike Rowe?

  I am.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  You're pro, and you have this forum to be able to tell people, pay attention to this, this is important, this is going to impact you. And that's the other thing that's super important to me, especially in this day and age with complex issues that don't fit on a bumper sticker, they just don't. Part of, I think, our obligation is American citizens that can vote is to be informed. And to be informed and to be intellectually curious, not just to hang out with your own tribe who's going to say the same things, but test your ideals. You can have a conversation with somebody that doesn't agree with you.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  It should sharpen your arguments and perhaps open up your mind and say, "I hadn't considered that. I know that's a little naive in this day and age, but we have complex issues that demand our attention. I'll bet on America every day of the week to rise, but I think you have an incredibly important voice in this, and I'm concerned every day about making sure that we still lead the world."

• 11:42Mike Rowe?

  I want to circle back to all of that, but I want to ask you, I certainly, I've heard what you said, but it's the way that you've contributed to the larger discourse that I think is really interesting. I mean, you've articulated, in other words, everything you've just said in the movies that you've produced. You've done it in the music that you make. You've done it with your enthusiasm for the sports franchises you've invested in. Most recently, the profound humiliation your Steelers exacted upon my poor Ravens just a week or so ago. So, how much fun is it being Thomas Toll right now?

• 12:27Mike Rowe?

  I mean, I get it, we're in a divided time, the stakes are high, there's a lot to be freaked out about, but you're living a version of the American dream, I think, that most people fantasize about. And it's just so interesting to be three feet from you and seeing all you've accomplished at this point in your life, and to be able to ask you, aside from amusing yourself, how are you using all of this media to push the rock up the hill?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, I grew up very poor in upstate New York with a single mom who had me young. Nobody in my family had gone to college. That wasn't really a thing. My grandmother was a janitor in a hospital for 50 years, which I think might make your dirty jobs list. All blue collar, and you know, there's a grounding and a worldview, I think, that comes of that.

• 13:26Mike Rowe?

  I don't want to just glance over that. The hospital laundry is a version of hell that I think Dante would put somewhere between six and seven.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  I think it makes the list.

• 13:41Mike Rowe?

  It's extraordinary. And if you've never been in one, well, then, you know, there's really no way to paint the picture.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she, one of the things I remember, just my grandmother, my mother, who worked two jobs, is you can complain about it, and you may have a reasonable point, but the cavalry's not coming and it doesn't matter. You either get up and do what you need to do, or you don't, and you complain about how all that unfolds. And in my own personal experience, I just don't think that's the direction to go. And then in terms of just going from

• 14:24Speaker 02

  that to wherever I find myself today, anybody that traverses those waters, that doesn't understand and make intellectual peace with the luck quotient, you're not being honest with yourself.

• 14:41Mike Rowe?

  You've written a lot about, maybe not intellectual peace, but intellectual honesty?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:46Mike Rowe?

  You know, it pops up a lot. And what I've seen you say, what do you, what do you mean by that? And why is it as important as you imply?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Well, I just think that, you know, human beings by nature are storytellers. We need to have a narrative. We need to grab on to something that both gives us cultural meaning, historical grounding, this is the way things are, we celebrate things. And those are wonderful.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  If that bends the wrong way, and you fail at something, or you fall short, and instead of having honest dialogue, either with the folks that you were in it with, or yourself, to say, "Wait a minute. Where did I go wrong?" And sometimes, the answer is, "Did a dumb thing. Preventable, unforced error. Dumb thing." Other times, you may look at it and say, "Did everything that you could do, a reasonable person would do, and the ball bounced the wrong way. It hit a rock. What are you gonna do?" And that's okay, too. But I think to constantly question,

• 16:03Speaker 02

  and also, you know, that "know thyself" thing, I think is really important. Because if you put yourself in a position to be successful, part of that is, "I know what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, where I'm gonna thrive, where I'm not, and how do I position myself, hopefully, you know, to be not boxed in because I told myself a story that wasn't true."

• 16:32Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, well, I mean, that's the hell of it, right? The upside of knowing yourself is, well, it's Kierkegaard. It's the unexamined life and so forth. But if you know enough about yourself to know that you're flawed, or to not actually like you, then knowing yourself is, there's really no upside unless you're willing to change. And that's a hard thing. I think maybe the hardest thing. But how did you change? You're a poor kid from upstate New York. How do you get to Pittsburgh? How do you wind up owning the Steelers? How do you wind up launching Legendary? How do you wind up with a relationship with Chris Nolan, for God's sakes, whose talent, I'm not quite sure

• 17:14Mike Rowe?

  people have fully comprehended? It's impossibly circuitous.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yes. And none of it planned, to be honest with you. I, you know,

• 17:28Speaker 02

  I think my life has been a series of opportunities and being able to see whether you want to call it the angle or a couple of moves deep on the chessboard to be able to say, okay, well, if I was able to build this or create this relationship and here's how I think I could, you know, this would would manifest itself if X, Y, and Z were done. And it's just also always been about doing whatever it takes and meaning it. And I think, you know, the tension between two principles that I believe deeply in, one

• 18:09Speaker 02

  is fail fast, right? If you made the wrong call, whether it's, you know, someone you hired, a business you're in, whatever it is, and you recognize that, look, this one, the, you know, the deeper I dig, the deeper I get. So there is that tension versus no, I believe deeply in this. And when reasonable people tap out, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to get up again and again and again. Knowing which one of those is happening, you know, that's the trick.

• 18:52Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure

• 19:37Mike Rowe?

  Your jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path

• 20:18Mike Rowe?

  into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 20:32Mike Rowe?

  When to be unreasonable, when to be disagreeable, when to be the jagged little pill. All of that shot through with intellectual honesty. So if the goal is for me to know myself and to be willing to do all these counterintuitive things along the way, well, there's no wonder you didn't have a plan because you couldn't possibly write all that out in a way. I mean, look, okay, no plan, but do you have a code? You mentioned that sweat pledge. That, for me, was kind of a roadmap of sorts that I always used, but I didn't know if that was hopelessly romantic or self-indulgent. How important is it to have some kind of code to live by?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  I think it's important because you can have, I think there are, again, I think of it as having flexibility around the following. There's base level things that you believe in. And you know in your gut, hey, I'm doing the wrong thing here. I'm doing wrong by that person. I'm staring at it and I'm deciding, I don't want to do that. You know, folks around me probably make fun of me for saying this, but I always talk about clean uniform. We always have a clean uniform. Don't get dirt on the uniform. Okay, we don't, we don't do that.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  And then there is, you're doing new stuff, whether it's a new business and tech or whatever it is, where there's no roadmap for it. There's no analog because you're inventing it. And then you have to have the elasticity to say, okay, this is new territory, which is going to require some new muscles and new things, but it can't ever violate the foundation. And

• 22:27Mike Rowe?

  Where do you feel uncomfortable? And how important is it to be uncomfortable? This is a compliment, even though it doesn't quite sound like it, but I just watched Ghost Towns. I just watched a performance of Fire Under Water.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 22:45Mike Rowe?

  All right? Now, this is a band that Thomas plays in that tours with the Rolling Stones. Now, if that's all we were to talk about for an hour and a half, that's plenty. But it's like a parenthetical, or at least it feels like one in your curriculum vitae. But for most people at a glance, you're playing guitar in a band that's opening for frickin' Mick Jagger. And I'm watching you as I'm watching this video. You don't sing, or if you do

• 23:23Speaker 02

  It's illegal.

• 23:23Mike Rowe?

  Okay. Okay? And you're good, but you're, you're not a, you're not out there doing a Keith Richards thing. You're kind of sta, I'm not going to say you were uncomfortable, but you're, you're standing there, doing your thing, doing your part, being like thoughtful about it. And everybody else around you is full rocking out. So what's up with that?

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Well, I've played probably since I was 12, self-taught.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  You know, I can certainly read charts and understand some music theory, but I'm not like one of these cats from Juilliard. And for me, playing music is both a joy. I love it. There's nothing like, especially, I write our songs, or most of them, and just to watch the audience react to something you wrote is really cool.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  But it's a struggle. I have to work hard and chase competency, and then I watch other people that are simply gifted musically, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, they just play."

• 24:33Mike Rowe?

  It's so annoying, man. It's so annoying.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  It drives me crazy.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  But, you know, I love doing it. We've opened and toured with some incredible, Stones my all-time favorite band, from ZZ Top to...

• 24:48Mike Rowe?

  Why the Stones?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Man, because, first of all, they're cool everywhere. They're cool in a biker bar, you know, you go to a Stones show, even the last tour, and there's people there that are teenagers to 80, and they're just cool everywhere.

• 25:06Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Who is relevant for 60 years? Not just, you know, "Oh, that's nice throughout," but, and if you listen to their lyrics, "Give Me Shelter" is probably my favorite song of all time. I've had the privilege of getting to know the guys pretty well, and you look at what Mick and Keith wrote, "Sympathy for the Devil," I mean, go...

• 25:33Mike Rowe?

  "Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name."

• 25:35Speaker 02

  It's, it's educated and polished and well-read, but dangerous.

• 25:45Mike Rowe?

  But it wasn't always. Like, how much of your...

• 25:50Mike Rowe?

  Feelings for the band required the passing of of time. Like, how long did it have to sit with you? Some movies feel that way for me. Some books, you know, you read them and you kind of file them away. And then, all of a sudden, later, this, like, maybe the headlines catch up, or maybe your own life becomes something different. But like, the relevance of the Stones. Like, I totally rediscovered the Stones with, there's a great doc called Twelve Feet From Stardom.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I love that doc.

• 26:24Mike Rowe?

  You saw it.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Mary Clayton, are you kidding me?

• 26:28Mike Rowe?

  Mary Clayton is the hero of the Stones. Mary Clayton, good God, man. I mean, she was.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Have you ever heard the Isolated track?

• 26:39Mike Rowe?

  Oh, yes, of course we have. Rape, murder, it's just a shot. When her voice cracks at the top. You're, I, you must have, like, so I wrote a story about that. I wrote, literally, when the way I heard it was a collection of short stories in the style of Paul Harvey's Old Show. I wrote a story about the call that came to Mary Clayton's home. And Curtis, her husband, answered it. And it's like 11 o'clock and the, the boys are down in LA. And she's this, she's the daughter of a preacher. She sings in the church choir. And they bring her down to sing this song.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  I hope that she doesn't get mad at me for saying this. But three, four weeks ago, I got to talk to Mary Clayton on the phone.

• 27:31Mike Rowe?

  Get.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's how I felt. So one of our backup singers.

• 27:36Mike Rowe?

  Hold on, Chuck, for God's sakes, make a note.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:39Mike Rowe?

  Get him a link.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:40Mike Rowe?

  He has to see the, the story.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  I gotta see it.

• 27:42Mike Rowe?

  Totally. Because we did, we went. Hired actors, recreations, the whole thing. I mean, I got her in the studio. This whole thing starts because I found the isolated track late one night going down some bottomless YouTube rabbit hole. And I hear that by itself. And there's a cutaway of Mick telling the story as they're playing the track. And I've never seen a look on his face like that, where it's just.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  You hear them, that involuntary, they, so. So I had maybe a 20, 25 minute conversation with her. She was as cool as you think she is.

• 28:32Mike Rowe?

  How old is she now?

• 28:35Speaker 02

  I am not gonna say.

• 28:36Mike Rowe?

  Well, I mean, I'm just doing the math, 19, anybody? It's impolite, Mike.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  But she said she's a huge Ghost Hounds fan, which made my heart, you know? But, yeah, and so we, we actually recorded. We don't do a lot of covers. But the gear that they recorded that on was at Sunset Studios.

• 29:01Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  And when they sold it, I bought it. So we had, I have it in my studio and we recorded as close as possible. I mean, we studied every, and had Chanel Haynes, who sang with the Stones on the last tour and did Mary's part, come in and sing. Just because I, I just wanted to do it.

• 29:23Mike Rowe?

  No pressure. I mean, oh, how'd she do? Crushed?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  She's killer, I mean, she's, we were on tour with them in Europe. And I heard they, the actress who was playing Tina Turner in London, they were gonna bring her in to do the last couple of legs because somebody was sick. And we were in Italy and she comes out on stage. It is worth you looking at the YouTube video. She owned the place. And I just sat there, I'm like, alright. And she's incredible. She's a force of nature. And I have enjoyed working with her too. But just to tell you, if, you should talk to Mary Clayton. She lives out here in LA. She's sharp and cool and just.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  And I don't get nervous very often because I'm, you know, ignorant. But I'm talking to Mary Clayton and I just, that is the thing about my life that I think is the most surreal. Everything I've loved since I was a kid, the Yankees, the Steelers, the Rolling Stones, Batman, Superman, Jackie Robinson. I don't know how, but it all showed up in adulthood and it's, it is surreal.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  And there's not a moment that I lose touch with, I am on the phone with Mary Clayton. Or, you know, or I'm walking on stage before this. It's, it's very surreal and I do get the joke.

• 31:08Mike Rowe?

  It's very David Byrne. It's very, this is, this is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. This is what, I think there's something super interesting about the background, the unsung, the out of sight, possibly out of mind, you know, it's the, well, I mean, for me, that was Dirty Jobs. That was, you know, can you do a show in a sewer? And can you make a hero out of a guy that has never been interviewed before? And can you actually form a construct that would allow him to be comfortable on camera for 12 hours, being himself? And the answer, of course, is yes.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  It worked.

• 31:50Mike Rowe?

  Like, when you see that happen again and again, that's why the title 12 Feet From Stardom, like, jumped out at me. It's like, well, of course, who's the background singer? I interviewed a guy yesterday who wrote a terrific book called Love Johnny Carson, right? And the first thing we talk about is Carson's relationship with the guy who pulled the curtain back for him every night. They were dear friends. And like Carson's prep before each show was to smoke a cigarette and talk to this guy. He didn't wander off or get in his head or do any of that stuff. He was just completely, that was his thing, like, to connect to the guy who opens the curtain for him.

• 32:35Mike Rowe?

  And here you are buying the same gear that that was recorded on. And you're interested enough to take this conversation, or maybe I did, and I'm not sure. But we're talking about a background singer. And you're jazzed up in a way that I didn't expect you to be because you had the privilege of talking to somebody on the phone. And we ought to say it, the vast majority of people listening to this right now, they don't know who Mary Clayton is. But 100% of them have heard her. Right? They've heard what we're talking about.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  And hopefully felt that, you know, that thing.

• 33:15Mike Rowe?

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• 33:58Mike Rowe?

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• 34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and look, I feel like I skirted your question about what is that uncomfortableness thing on, on stage. I know, just to tie back the know thyself, I'm not a, I don't want the spotlight, I want to be the guitar player you can't name in the band. And jumping around all that, that's just not, it's not me.

• 35:06Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  And it would look weird.

• 35:08Mike Rowe?

  And you'd feel weird.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And instead, I just want to make sure I'm, you know, I'm playing everything I'm supposed to correctly, and I'm having a blast doing it. And, you know, when you, when you cross that with somebody who has unbelievable natural talent, whether it's Ronnie Wood, who's an insane musician with anything he touches, Mary Clayton, who just, give her a microphone and goosebumps, you know, it's all those things.

• 35:42Mike Rowe?

  Mixed direction to her was, um, "I want you to blow the doors off." That's all he said. "Sing on however you want, but blow the doors off the place." And she took it as a challenge. Now, not to get too dark, but I mean, the story is the story. You know, she had curlers in her hair.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:03Mike Rowe?

  She was pregnant.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:06Mike Rowe?

  She lost the baby that night, coming back from that session. She went into a deep depression for two years. She couldn't hear the song without having all of that come back. And so, you know, there's a price for every, everything. And what kills me about that story, Thomas, is that I, not only did I not know her name, I didn't know the price, you know. Her whole story is an opera. I mean, the car accident she was in later, I think she, I think she lost a leg, if I recall.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  I don't, I'm not.

• 36:50Mike Rowe?

  I mean, it's.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Lots of stuff, though.

• 36:52Mike Rowe?

  Lots and lots of stuff. And so, I don't know. We have a tendency, I think, to look at a band like the Stones, and we have to put them in a place. Like, because that's how they live in our, in our minds, but what kind of price did they pay? What kind of price did Chris Nolan pay? What kind of price have you paid? What price is demanded of anybody who gets the privilege to stand on a stage and play a guitar, or go onto the gridiron and try and block a kick? I can't believe we didn't block that kick. Maybe we should talk about what happened between Pittsburgh and the Ravens, and see if we can't find some larger lessons in the last four minutes of that disaster that apply to everything we're talking about.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Well, listen, I have bled black and gold since I was four years old.

• 37:39Mike Rowe?

  Here, put that mic right up here if you wouldn't mind.

• 37:43Mike Rowe?

  Because I can tell you're about to be interesting, and I want to hear every word.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Goodness. You know, to me, as a little kid watching Jack Lambert, Joe Green, Terry Bradshaw throwing the ball to Lynn Swan and John Stallworth, it just, you know, my whole life I bled with them. And I had the privilege of getting close with Mr. Rooney, who we lost a couple of years ago, who I just revered. He was the kindest, not a pushover, but just, I just respected and revered him. And what's crazy, there have been three coaches in my lifetime of the Steelers. Chuck Knoll, Bill Cower, now Mike Tomlin.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  And in the AFC North, where you better buckle your chin strap every week, you know, the Ravens are always, from our perspective, in the way.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  But there is a profound respect. Because they're physical, and they're a great team. Your coach, Harbaugh, who was there for 18 years, they just parted, which I was kind of shocked by.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  But it's, I'd love to tell you that every Sunday, that when I was a fan, it felt like this, and now, my first year in the ownership group, we won the Super Bowl in '08, which was.

• 39:07Mike Rowe?

  How does that even feel?

• 39:10Speaker 02

  You know, I always think this, so in adulthood, unlike when we're kids, a lot of our accomplishments or joy are complicated. Or the, you know, I, you know, dirty jobs is working, but now you have to do.

• 39:27Mike Rowe?

  300 of them.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Right? Or whatever it is.

• 39:30Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  You know, I won, and then the tax bill, or whatever, you know. That feeling of winning the Super Bowl with a team that I bled for, just part of who I am, was an undescribable, pure joy.

• 39:53Mike Rowe?

  Unadulterated.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Nothing complicated, unadulterated, pure joy. I also never forget that, you know, being on the field right after, and James Harrison, our outside linebacker, who's the strongest human being I've ever been around, picked me up by the waist, like a child, yay. You know, he made, in my opinion, the greatest play in Super Bowl history with the interception that he took back all the way. But, you know, it is a privilege to be partners with the Rooney family, and just to, you know, and you get to see the grind behind the scenes with these athletes, what they go through.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  You ask about price, they pay a price, and the pressure of it all. And, you know, the difference between somebody who makes a living and gets to that second contract in pro sports versus, I went up, I checked it out, and now, you know, I have, I'm selling insurance, or I'm doing whatever I'm doing. You know, it's, it's pretty thin.

• 40:59Mike Rowe?

  But back to this last game. I mean, have you seen a three or four minute conclusion like that? Have you, I mean, it was such, just describe to people, really, I mean, Chuck called me after it, and was like, dude, did you just, it was one of those things that you looked at, and you're like, I need to talk to somebody about this. I just need to talk to somebody about it to make sure I saw what happened. And as an owner, being there and seeing that insane whipsaw back and forth.

• 41:33Mike Rowe?

  What I just gotta ask, what's the, what is that emotional roller coaster? How tall do you have to be to be on that ride?

• 41:42Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm, I didn't qualify apparently, but it's, the crazy thing was in that span, the ups and downs, each team looked like, you know, they had it. And, you know, we got very spoiled with number seven. As long as we had Ben Roethlisberger, didn't matter what the circumstances were, we had a chance.

• 42:06Mike Rowe?

  You were in the game.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  And, you know, post Ben, that happens. Number eight is different. You know, Aaron, he found some magic in the tank, took command of the thing. I still don't understand how Lamar got out of that sack. You know, talk about defying physics. He's a special gifted, you just can't figure out what he did. He gets out of it and looks downfield and lofts the pass to Flowers. And you think, I can't believe that just happened. He, on the last drive, was third and seven.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Nick Kerbig, our linebackers chasing him to the sideline. And he stops and throws the ball away. If he gets sacked there, I think you probably lose 10-ish yards. Now it's fourth and 17. I don't know what happened. I'm not even going to speculate because in this crazy thing, and somehow, you know, he, he got out of it. It reminded me, years ago, the Steelers and Ravens are playing a really important game in December. Not for the division, but close enough. And we're in field goal position on third down. Suggs comes off the edge, he grabs Ben, he's got him. It's a sack, we're out of field goal range. Ben physically walks him out of the pocket and throws the ball away. And we kick the field goal and win.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  And I said in the locker room after game to Ben, I don't know how many people know and understand what you just did. So it's always a rock fight with those guys. And once Lively made the catch.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  On fourth and seven with Ramsey draped all over. That was an incredible catch. And I'm like, well, you know, uh, turned out, uh, Boz's extra point. The Ravens got a, got a, a hand on, a finger on.

• 44:05Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Caused the miss, so they caused it. And as soon as that happened, in the back of your mind, you have to think, well, the football gods are cruel and this is what's gonna happen.

• 44:17Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  And, and it almost.

• 44:18Mike Rowe?

  The Ravens have the ball. They got what, three timeouts? And all they gotta do is get within range and they got Lamar.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:24Mike Rowe?

  And so they get within range. And now where are, do you turn your back at this point? Can you watch?

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Uh, I did not watch. Uh, I.

• 44:37Mike Rowe?

  By the way, if you're just joining us, this is one of the owners of the Steelers who's simply unable to watch the end of a game. So like, you're biting your nails like any other fan. You're just twisted inside out. Can't believe it. Cause he can't miss. Luke can't miss.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  No, look, he's a rookie kicker, but he's really good. And, um, it's just, it's the Ravens. I mean, this is the way it's gonna end. The season's gonna end. When you looked at the schedule and you saw that the last game was against the Ravens, you just intellectually are like, well, that's gonna be for the division.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  So yeah, no, I did not see the miss. I did not. I just felt the building shake. Uh, when it went the other way. I thought it was a nice moment that our kicker, Chris Boswell, after the game, put an arm around their young kicker.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  But yeah, and especially when you know the guys and you know.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Who's at the end of it? Who's fighting back from an injury? It just, you're just steeped in it. Not only as a fan, but.

• 45:49Mike Rowe?

  So was that the same unadulterated joy that you were talking about? Or was that more disbelief? Or did you like go through?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Man, that was, that was a mixture of everything because I truly, it took a good minute, maybe 90 seconds. Because it's not just, the season was over. It was done. And you really, other than blocking the field goal, which is extraordinarily rare, there's nothing you can do. It's not like, look, if it's fourth and goal from the five and you make a stand, that at least there's some efficacy.

• 46:30Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  You know, there's, with a field goal, for the most part, you just kind of feel like, well, if the guy makes it, you know, it's like hitting a free throw.

• 46:38Mike Rowe?

  Yep.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Not quite, but, um, so yeah, it was a range of emotions and, uh, you know, as soon as I saw Mr. Art Rooney, the owner, in the locker room afterwards and the guys are, it was joy, but also a little surreal.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  And I just looked at Art and said, you know, what just happened?

• 47:11Speaker 03

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• 47:39Mike Rowe?

  What just happened is the question. Because what I'm trying to get at is like, what just happens when the song you wrote comes together and you're on stage and you're playing your guitar? And you see it happening, you see it coming together. There's magic in that. There's certainly magic in guiding a team, owning a team. And some things you can control, some things you can't. So what you're left with is all of the, all of the hope and emotional stuff that any fan would have. Making a movie, you know, like, how do these things compare? Like when you know you've got a hit on your hands? Whether it's a sports franchise, whether it's a film, whether it's a song,

• 48:24Mike Rowe?

  or whether it's just, I don't know, making your mom proud because your boy did good. Like, these things, you know, they're all variations on some sort of theme, I would think.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Well, and I also think that the 12 Feet from Stardom, all of what you just named is a lot of adjacency to true talent.

• 48:50Mike Rowe?

  Okay? Sure.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  And, you know, I always used to say, I think we made five movies with Chris Nolan. And, you know, if you ask like, oh, what was the collaboration like? I don't know, we made sure his catering was good. I mean,

• 49:05Mike Rowe?

  He's Lamar.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  He doesn't need any, right? He's, um, and certainly, you know, in sports, I'm fortunate enough to own a piece of the Yankees. And, you know, it's a privilege to be partners with Hal Steinbrenner and the Steinbrenner family. Same thing with Art Rooney. I mean, these are some of the greatest owners in sports history. It's adjacency.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  And as long as you can contribute in any way that you can, and that's the way I feel about whatever it is in business, you know, if I can put a team together in one of our companies and I'm the least talented person in the room and we're winning, fantastic. That's great. And, you know, I think having that whatever it takes attitude and also just if you get bogged down in the credit thing, that can be dangerous. Look, you mentioned this before about dirty jobs. I am fascinated about people who do incredible work when

• 50:13Speaker 02

  no one's looking and there is no functional reward, so to speak. And I think if you really break it down, to me, the backbone of our country, you're talking about teachers, cops and firemen and the trades. That is the backbone of our country. It's the education of tomorrow and certainly nurses and people on the line. And I'm just fascinated. And I thought about even during COVID, what was it like to be a nurse pulling shifts and the look of desperation

• 50:51Speaker 02

  and fear on people's faces? Those are the things that fascinate me because the stuff that you just named, it is a, I'm like the luckiest, and I get it. I really, truly get it. I'm not clueless and tone deaf that, you know, some idiot gets to do all this stuff. But people who do unbelievably important work that don't get to talk to Mike Rowe on your show, and the best they're going to get is a coworker saying, yeah.

• 51:25Mike Rowe?

  Attaboy.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it. And they bring it every day regardless. That, to me, is pretty cool.

• 51:35Mike Rowe?

  You know, I had this conversation the other day with somebody, and apropos of nothing, what came out of it was this Bud's for you was the greatest ad campaign of all time because it was exactly that. It was a small thing, a thing, a way of saying thanks, a way of acknowledgement.

• 51:55Mike Rowe?

  And that whole thing, my little code over there, I mean, it it starts with gratitude. That's the thing. I mean, the the number one tenet, I believe I have hit the greatest lottery of all time. I'm alive. I walk the earth. I live in America. Above all things, I'm grateful. So, you know, if you don't agree with that, that's cool, but my foundation can't help you in that regard. So, maybe gratitude then is the, like, how do you, how often do you check yourself for that?

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Every day. And the reason is that the stuff that is in my face is surreal. Now, I didn't scratch the winning lottery numbers off, right? I'm not going to be false about, I've worked my tail off. I'm pretty good at what I do.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  And, you know, I give these talks at universities and business schools sometimes. And inevitably, someone will ask what the secret is. And, you know, I always say, if there is one, I'm not in on it. Because many times what people don't want to hear, they want to hear some magic trick. Right? No matter what it is, whether it's, you know, what do I need to do in the gym to get in shape? Well, show up every day.

• 53:23Mike Rowe?

  They want the playbook, man.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:26Mike Rowe?

  They want the playbook.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  What they don't want to hear is, it's Friday night, and while everybody else is off doing whatever, you're working. They don't want to hear that if you happen to be on a family vacation, you're up in the hotel room on a call and doing stuff. Or, you know, that if you are...

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Doing one of the many jobs that you've celebrated and talked about. That by showing up, sometimes, I don't mean you're dead sick and you should stay home, but yeah, I'm not quite my best today, but I'm gonna go in anyway. And I love, one of the things you've got up here, the, I can't quote it directly, but is basically, there's no unimportant small jobs. There's just what you, and I, when young employees, young folks ask, it seems like three months in, they want to be, you know, the executive vice president of. And it's, it's great to be ambitious. God knows, I was, am, whatever.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  But do a great job and be indispensable about exactly, you know, as John Wooden said, be where your feet are, do exactly with enthusiasm and do an excellent job. Ninety-eight percent of the time, the universe will notice that. But when it's constantly, I shouldn't be doing this. This is not good enough for me. I'm gonna, well, you're kind of telling me something about yourself. So, yeah, I mean, with the stuff that I get to do, it's in my face all the time to be grateful, if you want

• 55:15Speaker 02

  to call it grounded. It's just like, look, an inch to the left, inch to the right, anything can happen. And now, you know, I'm in my 50s, so we all know people, unfortunately now, that you get that phone call. Did you hear so and so just passed away? And it's shocking and sad and jarring. None of us know where any of this is going.

• 55:42Mike Rowe?

  But we all know how it ends.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Absolutely. We just don't know, you know, the day, the duration. So, if you're unable to say that, look, right now, here, I'm here and I'm clear and I can get up and walk and everything, we're halfway home.

• 56:04Mike Rowe?

  And that's a choice. My mom's eighty-eight, my dad's ninety-three. They live in a retirement community. There's a bulletin board down in the lobby. Everybody walks everywhere all the time. And this particular bulletin board, it's a big community, there are two thousand people there. It's just a morning list of who didn't make it through the night. Now, my mom is a humorist in every way. And so she finds great humor in the idea of, you know, there's a bring out your dead joke. It's Monty Python. It's like, let's go down to the bulletin board and have a look. And then they got a place called the treasure chest, right? Where people's possessions, you know, no longer are needed.

• 56:47Mike Rowe?

  They just get donated there and then people go down and they... So there's places full of people walking around in the clothing of people who are no longer around with their... It's like this giant thing happening. And it's, it's so poignant, man. But it's no less true than what you just said. It's just back to the whole time thing. You just mentioned you're in your fifties. You also said something before that was interesting. You said, "I was ambitious," or "am." That's interesting. Are you as ambitious as you ever were? And what happens to ambition? Like, it's not like a pop fly, right? It's either going up or it's coming down, right?

• 57:30Mike Rowe?

  How do you, how do you talk about, like, how do you stay hungry? When you've feasted at the buffet of life?

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Well, I, I think, yeah, it's, it's... I think you just pointed in different directions. What are the things, when you're all done, you know, and you're sort of laying there? I'm not aware of anybody on their deathbed that has said, "Bring me my balance sheet. I want to look at my financial statements." So the question is, what kind of efficacy have you, have you had? And...

• 58:09Mike Rowe?

  Where did you move the needle?

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and are you somebody that from what I would call the small circle is are you a good friend? Are you somebody that your circle would say, yeah, if I call Mike in an inconvenient time and say I need you, are you there? And then more broadly, if you have the wherewithal to have more impact, whether it's being charitable, whether it's trying to quietly, you know, have any sort of effect on things that you think are important as a thought leader or organizer or convener. I think those things are important.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  I mentioned at the beginning, I think that, you know, we have to be clear eyed about where we are as a country and where some of our international adversaries, where they think this is going.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  And that that's not going to be an easy fight at all. And it's going to require some sacrifice and struggle. And we look back at what this country has done and the generation that went through World War II. I am in awe of our military, our men and women in the military, what they're capable of.

• 59:29Mike Rowe?

  That Venezuela thing, hell of a thing.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Look, here's the thing. I wish that humanity would wake up tomorrow and say, violence is kind of lame. Like, let's just cure cancer and that'd be great. That is not what I woke up to this morning. And the only thing I passionately believe is the United States needs to speak in a loud, clear voice. And when we say, here's the bright line, we mean it. And I do think that that exercise and what happened in Iran around the nuclear stuff has at least told the world that.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  When we say it, we do mean it. And I do think that that is extraordinarily important. And I think that you're going to see profound shifts. If we're not number one in the world on artificial intelligence and quantum, and we don't have a handle on space because of many complex things that can happen with the ultimate high ground. These are all things that are going on. And, you know, we talked about transformation of the workforce. I think that's going to be extraordinarily important. And I think our kids that are going to be, that are being educated today,

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  need to have some level of either digital fluency or a trade that they, you know, can anchor into.

• 1:01:04Mike Rowe?

  I mean, forgive me, I'm sure you've been asked this a thousand times, but you do have kind of an interesting vantage point into artificial intelligence. It certainly seems like it's going to impact everything in the room to some degree.

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• 1:01:50Mike Rowe?

  In general, good thing? Bad thing? Should we be scared? Or does it even matter? It's, you can't put the poop back in the goose. Let's not lose to China. But how do you handicap all that? Think about it.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Look, to me, it's like many. Human inventions can be used for good or bad. I think that people both overestimate and underestimate its impact. There is not a corner of our economy that artificial intelligence is not going to impact.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Workforce has to be ready for that. And those that use it to augment their work and enhance and make it more productive and say, I used to have to search or put these things together and PowerPoint used to take two days and all those things. And then I think when you dream about things like drug discovery, personalized medicine, to be able to find out exactly what it is, you know, going on and to be much more precise about that. Certainly, what we're seeing happen in defense and in the military is profound.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  The lessons that we're learning in the Ukraine with drones and cheaper disposable weapons and what the implications are, both in warfare and potentially, you know, in homeland security, are all incredibly important.

• 1:03:27Mike Rowe?

  Palmer Lucky told me that our only hope was automation, that we could never catch them in a conventional way. In fact, he sat right there and I didn't fully appreciate it until later. I think he's probably right. I mean, how do you, how do you catch up with the shipbuilding? How do you catch up at this point? We have to, we have to reset the table, maybe? And if AI can help us do that?

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Well, look, in Cards Up, we're big investors in Andrel Palmer's company. So obviously, I agree with his, his statement. We need to pivot from platforms that are very long lead, very expensive into automation and, and things that will keep us safe tomorrow. But I also think America has to be Have the ability to make stuff, again, complicated stuff. Uh, there's a company that I've invested in called Rebuild, which is all American high-tech manufacturing. Uh, now it's, I think, thirteen companies across the country.

• 1:04:37Speaker 02

  We have to be able to make complex things and not offshore our intellectual property and our know-how. I mean, if you look at what really built America and accelerated everything, it was our industrial might that allowed us not only to win World War II, but to put ourselves in a position that we've enjoyed for the last seventy years.

• 1:05:04Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you know, Palmer made this point too. And I, I hadn't thought of it the exact way. I think most people understand that our ability to pivot from a big muscular manufacturer into a military player happened because we had a manufacturing base in place. But it's also pretty important, I think, to understand that what the military did was they made weapons based on the, the manufacturing specs that were already in place. Right? Like, we didn't create something new.

• 1:05:44Mike Rowe?

  There are a lot of the things, you know, that we were using to make cars the way we were making them, we used to make tanks. We didn't have to start from, from scratch. That seems like really important. If you're gonna talk about rebuilding the base, you, you would wanna rebuild it in a way that would potentially have a military application, even if that's not the immediate reason you're rebuilding it. And maybe that's a tough sell on the hill.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, the other thing without being Pollyanna. I mean, one of my heroes when I was a little kid is Reagan. I mean, President Reagan, to me, he was conservative.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  But his voice was optimistic. He gave America reason to be proud to be American again. And I remember at least the feeling, I couldn't intellectualize it as a little kid, but-

• 1:06:45Mike Rowe?

  Hal Reinie did, Morning in America.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  And, and meant it, was sincere. I never got the, and I know he was an actor and all that, but I never got the sense that he walked offstage and said, "I hope they believe that", you know, I, I think he embodied it. And, you know, today, the challenge with social media and being able to type in anonymously and say mean things and terrible things, and all the things that come with that, right? That, that happened and that's gonna happen. But at the end of the day, we're Americans. And I think we've strayed a little bit.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  It's, you know, it's like if you played pickup basketball with your best friends when you were a kid. Elbows are thrown, things are said, you know, it's all good, but when-

• 1:07:41Mike Rowe?

  Teeth are loosened.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, all the, all the above, but when you, when you're done, it's cool. But there's not a, and given the seriousness of our challenges, I just hope that, you know, our politicians and leaders understand that, sure, election cycle, you're gonna fight, you're gonna pull hair, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. But in the back room, we need serious adults doing serious governing. And that, given the challenges that we have with, from nations like China, it's gonna take our best effort, and I'll bet on us every day of the week.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  But I, I just hope that at some point, there's, and, and again, with the political violence, that's, you know-

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  That to me is a balloon that goes up that you say that's, we gotta pay attention to this.

• 1:08:39Mike Rowe?

  You know, I, I agree with all of it. I just wonder, you know, there's a tendency, I think, because we're alive, to assume that everything's so super special about the time that we're in right now, because everything has led to it and we're somehow the tip of some spear. But I, I mean, is there anything really new in the wide, wide world? I mean, humans have gone through every imaginable emotional feeling there is. The country's been more divided than it is now. I mean, fought a war over it and everything. So, I don't know. It's a, it feels different because we're, we're here on the corporal plane,

• 1:09:22Mike Rowe?

  you know, but I guess maybe, you know, the Reagan, Reagan was the right man for that right time.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  At that time.

• 1:09:31Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, there's a difference, I think, between being nostalgic and saying, why can't we? That's an unsophisticated view of the world. But I think, to me, it's hoping for some level of optimism, right? And waking up and saying, look, I believe in this country and I believe in what we can do. And we can fight, but at the end of the day, we're still America. And, you know, I can remember feeling pride after 9/11, when they all gathered on those steps.

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  And I felt both pride as well as, if I were hiding in a cave right now and just shot at the Americans and I saw that.

• 1:10:26Mike Rowe?

  Right, right.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  There'd be a cold shiver going up my spine for what's coming.

• 1:10:32Mike Rowe?

  Um, these moments, they, they really do remind me of a, of a pop fly. Cause we, it's only for a second is it neither going up nor down. There was one, you mentioned COVID. I, I live up north, um, north of San Francisco. And two weeks, well, once the, two weeks to flatten the curb, once that began, there was such a, uh,

• 1:11:01Mike Rowe?

  My entire neighborhood was so grateful for the nurses and for the doctors that we would walk out on our patios and decks and porches every night at eight o'clock and howl, right, like wolves. And you could hear it across the bay, thousands of people, "Ooh." I don't know why, I don't know who started it, but that's what we did because we were desperate to express our gratitude for a small cohort of people who were doing a thing that needed to be done and that was scary to do.

• 1:11:39Mike Rowe?

  And that was when the pop fly was hovering perfectly, likewise on the steps of the Capitol. When all of that went away, likewise after the pickup basketball game, when, yeah, whatever, you know. So I say a lot, sometimes things have to go splat. As an optimist, I hate to say that because I don't want things to get worse, but if they have to in order for them to get better, like you said an hour ago, better to fail fast, right? I think so. I think it was Churchill, right? When you're marching through hell, keep marching.

• 1:12:24Mike Rowe?

  So the hardest thing for me at that energy conference was to say to the president and whoever else was in the room, "I'm rooting for you. I want to see reshoring. I want to see the manufacturing base reinvigorated. I want to see a renaissance in all of these things." But look at the workforce. You know, you're going to create 2 million jobs in manufacturing and we have 480,000 openings this month that we can't fill with our current structure. I don't want to be the fly in the ointment, but somebody...

• 1:13:05Mike Rowe?

  Somebody has to look at the math. Five retire, two come in. We've made these jobs. Constellation prizes, vocational consolation prizes for 40 years. I don't know. I don't know how the cabinet can flip a switch and suddenly say, oh, okay. Where is the workforce really? That's what people ask me. And being a smart ass, I tell them, they're in the eighth grade. We can't make that go faster unless we can. Do you have any thoughts on how to change the trajectory of somebody entering the trades? How would you reinvigorate the workforce if you were king of the world?

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  And God forbid that day ever come. First of all, no magic bullet, right? There is no, oh, you simply, that's just not the way the world works. But I think if you stand back and say, when has a workforce been galvanized? When have you seen people turn their attention to things and put energy in it? What does that require? Well, it requires them to know about it. So drawing attention to it. It requires that there is some level of economic reward. And then all of a sudden, it's, it's cool, right? I don't know if you've seen during a lot of sports over the last six months.

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  I have no idea if they're effective or not, but they've been running these build submarines. Commercials.

• 1:14:41Mike Rowe?

  They sponsor this podcast and Blue Forge Alliance.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  So is that working? I don't know, but somebody's trying, which is good, right? So if you say, here's what the economic reward is. And there's going to be a campaign or light shone on this to say, hey, electricians, that's a sexy thing, okay? We can't win this race without electricians. You're important, right?

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  And then on top of that, I think to give a very clear path. I have your attention. You know about this now. Here's what you get if you get there. Here's why it's important. So what? Now what? What do I do? Well, if you go to this, you sign up, then you're going to go down to the local. If you're going to move the needle and galvanize that kind of workforce, it can't be a, hey, let's just hire them. That doesn't work.

• 1:15:54Mike Rowe?

  That's right.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  So there needs to be a thoughtful campaign put together that is systemic, thoughtful, and the appropriate investment is made to say, if this is where we're going to end up, going like this and, you know, running an infomercial isn't, isn't going to work. It's going to require a sophisticated plan with resources, but I don't know what the alternatives are.

• 1:16:21Speaker 05

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• 1:16:50Mike Rowe?

  Not for nothing, I was down on the field at the Army-Navy game. And one of those build subs ads came up, giant screen,

• 1:17:01Mike Rowe?

  as the planes are flying over and the Golden Knights are jumping out.

• 1:17:06Mike Rowe?

  So literally, I'm watching these guys float to the ground. These guys are building submarines. Everybody around me is like wiping a tear away. It's another one of those moments, howling at the moon, singing on the stairs, and now you're awash in so much patriotism, you can hear your sphincter slam shut. You know, it's just like, what the heck? This is incredible. And then the game starts and then you got a hot dog and a beer and to your point like we move on. We have to find a way to extend that moment. Alex Karp is doing something.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  He's a friend.

• 1:17:43Mike Rowe?

  Oh, is he?

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:44Mike Rowe?

  Oh, for God's sakes. Well, I sat next to him at this conference and you've got to connect to me because he's, he's doing something and he can't, in my view, he's not in a position to tell the story because it's too, he's too close to it. But he's hiring these kids straight out of high school.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Mike Rowe?

  And he's teaching them in Palantir, some liberal arts stuff while he's putting them on real world projects and fast tracking and engineering background. These kids are gonna have no debt, they're gonna have great jobs, and they're gonna be working for real soon. So, when I'm looking around for ideas, that's, I'm thinking like that. How do you break the paradigm and do something completely different? Peter Thiel did it, right? He was paying kids not to go to college, do this other thing, upset a lot of people, but at least he started the conversation. So I, I look at that stuff and I look at the licensures

• 1:18:43Mike Rowe?

  and I, I look at certifications and I, I don't think it makes sense for a master plumber to need to put in eight years to become a master plumber. I think there's a way to fast track that. And I don't know if the unions are my friend or not in this regard. I don't really know, but man, it's, the whole system needs to be grabbed by the lapels and shook. And Alex, in his way and his company is doing that and I give him huge credit for it.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  And look, one of the, a few minutes ago, you mentioned that humans, there's always been strife, right? We've always had trouble. Cuban Missile Crisis was a pretty good-

• 1:19:24Mike Rowe?

  That's a big one.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Piece of work. One thing I would argue that is different today is the velocity, the velocity of change, the velocity of messaging, of misinformation, right? Of losing track of the truth. There is a the truth.

• 1:19:45Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Things that-

• 1:19:46Mike Rowe?

  Not my truth.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  Right? Not your version, all that stuff.

• 1:19:50Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, that, just reject that.

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  But I think all of those things, that wonderful instantaneous communication, videos, what you're gonna be able to do with artificial intelligence, which does scare me, is making videos that look like Mike Rowe, sound exactly like him, saying, you know, terrible things. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that wasn't, spend a week explaining, folks, not, not me, right? So, when you talk about, again, whether it's pulling this workforce together, or coming up with new things, we need new tools because we are in a different time.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  And when you're talking to, you know, folks that are well-positioned and well-meaning, whether you're talking about unions or other places, there just has to be a point where you realize, that doesn't work anymore. Now, we can sit together and come up with something that does, and let's sit on the same side of the table and attack the problem, instead of your position or whatever it is. But this is why, to me, I'm concerned about how fast this is gonna get up on us. And it's not something, when you talk about pivoting the workforce,

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  I don't care how much money you have, I don't care how innovative you are as a country, that is a tough ship to turn, okay?

• 1:21:30Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I'm just thinking of this moment in the Civil War, the documentary where Shelby Foote is, is talking about the terrible consequence of moments in history where technology outpaces tactics.

• 1:21:49Mike Rowe?

  Because we don't have the ability to adapt to the new rules at the same speed the new rules are able to be implemented. Which is why at Shiloh you had six dead guys in a row killed by the same bullet. Fired from a new kind of rifle that had a new kind of range, right? And so their tactics didn't evolve to spread out, they're still marching in lines. And so they're dying like rows of corn. It's that. That's what I see everywhere I look. There's a brand new toolbox, you know? And, you know, here it is, right? Jonathan Haidt talks about this thing, and you said it earlier.

• 1:22:33Mike Rowe?

  It's just, AI is just a, it's another tool. So is this phone. So are the social platforms. It's just that, it's not, it's not just a phone, it's a, it's an arcade. It's a casino. It is a ticket to all the porn my 14-year-old mind can imagine. And I can get to it in a heartbeat. Oh, and I know, let's give it to our kids. Tell them to take it to school. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. So when I look at that, and I hear people telling me it's gonna be fine,

• 1:23:13Mike Rowe?

  in this other thing, causation, correlation, I get most of the arguments, but you can understand why people are walking around in a heightened state of anxiety. We don't know. There's this moment in Death of a Salesman. You know the play? Willy Loman, right? And he's got this, he's got uncle, his uncle is Ben, and Ben did well. Ben made a lot of money in gold mines. And Willy is tortured by it. Cause he doesn't understand how he did it. To our earlier point, like people are desperate for some kind of playbook. And all Ben can tell him is, he says, Willy.

• 1:23:58Mike Rowe?

  I went into the jungle with nothing and came out a rich man. And it torments poor Willie because he's like, I get that you went in the jungle. What, what happened in there? What happened with the Rolling Stones and Mary Clayton? What happened to the Steelers and the Ravens? What happened with Chris Nolan and Inception? I'm still not sure I understand. What happened with you and Legendary? How did you sell that thing for three and a half billion dollars? You had no experience in entertainment business. How did you do that, dude? How did you do that? And the truth is, all you can really tell me in the interest of time is, I went into the jungle with nothing and came out a rich man. And the rest of us look around and go, god damn.

• 1:24:41Mike Rowe?

  That's magical and mysterious. And how are we going to figure all this out? And so we got a country filled with Willie Loman and a couple of bends and all these new tools and all these old tactics. It's worrisome.

• 1:24:59Speaker 02

  Or you're part of an elaborate punkt episode on me. You know? But, uh, yeah, well, look, I'm not sure we can solve it all sitting here, but one of the things I really respect is you're using the platform to be a gadfly and to get people going on this and thinking about it. And look, that's, that's one of the things, you go back to Teddy Roosevelt, the man in the arena and all that stuff. Either participate and grab the rope and help pull because just complaining about it, you know, I've never understood that. Like, it's an active participant sport, I think.

• 1:25:44Mike Rowe?

  You, uh, what's the, sui generis?

• 1:25:50Mike Rowe?

  You're unique. People call every day to come here. They wrote a book. They made a documentary. They've got something to sell. That's okay. They're interesting and, right? Like, we're all doing our part in whatever kind of dance this is. You're Ben. You went into the jungle with nothing. You came out rich. You're busy. You could be playing your guitar, buying another team. You fly across the country to sit here and talk to me about this because we had a five-second exchange six months ago at a conference somewhere. And I didn't even ask you about Talco. But you're running a company now.

• 1:26:34Mike Rowe?

  And you're looking for, I assume, other companies that can be improved by embracing a level of tech that you understand? And you're here talking to me? So I'd be an idiot if I didn't ask you. You know, what? How can your expertise be applied to my efforts through that sweat pledge? Or through Alex Karp's efforts? What can we do to make a more persuasive case?

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  You know, look, I think you have to have equal parts ignorance and hubris and humility to be able to say, hey, I can help with that, right? Let me run in there. You know, I wanted to talk because I think this is not only massively important, but right now, I have this little thing that always goes off in my head. The only real currency right now is authenticity. Right? Just because I tune out, you know? There are people that are making a great living online by being a personality and all that. And that's great. There's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  But we need some truth tellers and we need some folks to say, hey, I'm not being a, you know, Debbie Downer, but, you know, this needs to be addressed. And that's kind of how the way I feel about this and just, you know, you have that authentic thing that you can't, there's no calculus for it or way to prove it. It's just you kind of know it when you see it. And, you know, in terms of applying, whether it's business principles, intuition, technical know-how, and frankly, the privilege of being able to have the connections to pick up the

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  phone and make something happen and cause, you know, I look at what happened where we met in Western Pennsylvania. That was a, that was a moment. That was cool what they did.

• 1:28:48Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  And I think on this front, you know, being able to get involved, put your shoulder behind it and say, I knew this was an issue. And instead of saying, somebody ought to do something. Because that's the other thing that if you, you know, you work around or you sort of get into some problem solving around the government, I always thought like there's 500 people in the next room solving this. There's not. And I think that private industry, America at its best is the government working with

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  industry, working with academia to produce extraordinary results. And if you just, you know, continually point out problems and say, somebody ought to, then I don't see a lot happening.

• 1:29:45Mike Rowe?

  Well, there's, look, there's some, some green shoots, some, who said that? Green shoots. Talking about reasons for optimism, reasons for, for hope. One of the things I said at that conference was, I've been doing this 17 years. I'm not doing much different today than I, than I was when we started. We had 10 times the applications for Work ethic scholarships last year. Well, this year, as we did the year before.

• 1:30:17Mike Rowe?

  Something's tipping. I don't know if it's ads for build subs. I don't know if it's some macroeconomic force. I don't know if Gen Z finally got the memo that the cost of a four-year degree is not, is not going to go away, right? Whatever it is, it's happening. And I'm hearing from people, man. It's, it's, it's not just companies like Ford or Caterpillar that have big, blue-collar workforces. It's Wells Fargo. It's Fisher Investments, right? It's like, they're paying attention. I sat in the Pentagon last month, literally in Pete Hegseth's office, talking to their team.

• 1:30:59Mike Rowe?

  They're in charge of this, or at least in charge of their... Well, look, nothing good is going to happen without them. They need to be a part of this. Maybe some NGOs need to be a part of it. God help us. I don't know. I don't know. But you're so right. It's not going to be one guy. It's not going to be one company. It really has to be. It has to be all of us. And I'm ringing the alarm bell. And, you know?

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  Because you're burdened with knowledge.

• 1:31:34Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, maybe. And, look, I don't want to be one of those guys at Shiloh. You know, shot with the same bullet. I don't want to sit around and, and wait for whatever other metaphor is about to befall us. You mentioned velocity before. Have you ever seen so much happen? Like, just take this last week, and in real time right now, we're in, we're in the first week of January. I said the same thing a year ago. At the same time, I've never seen a week like this. Everything, it feels like everything is happening at light speed.

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and, you know?

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  To sit and deliberate, the world is not allowing you to do that. And so, how do you prepare yourself as best you can to react to that? We're all used to gravity. If all of a sudden, gravity's off by fifteen percent. You know, and it's, uh, it is truly astounding how things can pivot almost overnight. And we get to see it all. You know what I mean? Like, it's because there's camera phone, there's cameras everywhere, there's, um,

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  yeah. So how we adjust to that and how we act during these, these times uh, is, is gonna matter. But it's not gonna slow down. I don't see it slowing down.

• 1:33:07Mike Rowe?

  Do you miss making movies?

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  Look, I, I had no background whatsoever in making movies. Legendary was put together because I saw an economic opportunity. I always loved movies, growing up, but I never, um, the creative process is phenomenal. Getting, working with people that are incredibly talented and telling a story and watching audiences react. That opening weekend of three hundred and the number of people, I can't tell you how many times somebody would come up to me at the gym and say, "I'm in the Marines and I just wanted to say," and that

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  that was a big deal to me.

• 1:33:57Mike Rowe?

  Did you know about Thermopylae before that?

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:34:00Mike Rowe?

  You knew the story?

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. That's just one of those stories that, uh, yeah, resonated at a young age. And, you know, and then the other side of it is the quote "business of it all" and, and that stuff. Uh, I'm, that chapter.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  You know, I'm okay with. The creative process was fun.

• 1:34:25Mike Rowe?

  Again, man, you went into the jungle with nothing and you came out with legendary films. You came out with a relationship with Chris Nolan. Is that what you were talking about before with the adjacency? Like being close to Chris, being close to the Stones, just being...

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  I mean, look, that is, you know, that is my life's arc. You know, I'm on the board at MIT and I get to watch true genius at work. There are companies I've backed, you know, Andrel being one of them. That you get to watch people who are incredible do their thing. Certainly with the athletes, the musicians, somebody like Chris Nolan. And being able to be next to that and hopefully in some ways helping and enabling. But yeah, I mean, you just have to know, know your, your part.

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  And my part is adjacency, you know?

• 1:35:31Mike Rowe?

  I wonder. Politics, ever?

• 1:35:34Speaker 02

  Oh, God, no. I want our country to get better.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  I do hope, just that, as I said before, between... Politics has always been rough and tumble, but we do want our best and brightest running and serving and not worrying, you know, that their families are in harm's way. I think we have to all kind of agree on that, but no, not me personally.

• 1:36:03Mike Rowe?

  So, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but how's it all gonna end, Thomas? Just tell me.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:36:11Mike Rowe?

  Just tell me.

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  That, that is the broadest question someone's ever asked me. Hopefully, we rise above, it's happily ever after. And we all evolve as well-read, well-understood, well-adjusted creatures. But I have no idea, man. I mean, it's...

• 1:36:36Speaker 02

  But the journey's fun to watch in a lot of ways.

• 1:36:39Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:41Speaker 02

  And I can't help but to be an optimist. And to bet, especially on the generation coming up.

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  You know, that they're gonna take care of us.

• 1:36:57Mike Rowe?

  I recommend people go online and check out Ghost Towns. Did you write "Fire Underwater"? Was that yours?

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  Uh, co-writer on that one. That was a, that was a long time ago. That was an early song. But our biggest hit to date is "Last Train to Nowhere", which Taylor Sheridan used in his show and everything, so that was cool.

• 1:37:18Mike Rowe?

  Do you know Taylor?

• 1:37:19Speaker 02

  I do. I do.

• 1:37:20Mike Rowe?

  He's, he's having a run.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  He, look, he's, uh, his ability to draw characters and especially off the beaten path is, is pretty unparalleled.

• 1:37:31Mike Rowe?

  What are you enjoying right now on the tube? Or do you even watch TV?

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  Uh, I do. It's, um, it's hard to watch. I mean, it's a big investment to watch a series. So between all, all, between being gainfully employed and, you know, having to get up and do this stuff every day, the sports side, and then the, you know, the boards and commitments and everything, there's not a lot of, you know, just straight up TV time. But, uh, so I'm not currently engaged. At some point, I'll, I'll watch the last run of Stranger Things.

• 1:38:14Mike Rowe?

  That I did not expect.

• 1:38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, uh,

• 1:38:17Mike Rowe?

  I'm waiting for "Landman", "Tulsa Kings".

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, "Landman", uh, the first season, that was fun. Obviously Yellowstone was great. And, uh, I love "Breaking Bad". I know that was a couple of minutes ago, but,

• 1:38:30Mike Rowe?

  Still.

• 1:38:30Speaker 02

  Now, it seems like everything's back around with streaming. You can rediscover stuff.

• 1:38:35Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, you said it, man. It's, uh, our ability to tell a story.

• 1:38:40Mike Rowe?

  Or sit through one, or engage with one. That's still for sale. Authenticity. I think the more frequently we see the word "artificial" in front of more things, the more important it's gonna be to feel that authentic exists as well. And hopefully in some equal or, or larger measure.

• 1:39:03Mike Rowe?

  Having said that, I find you rather authentic, Thomas Tull.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  Well, I appreciate it. It's... All I know how to do is get up and do what pops in here and hopefully, you know, not leave too big of a mess. So, I don't know.

• 1:39:22Mike Rowe?

  You wandered into the jungle, and then you came out, and the world was different. Thanks for making the trip out here. I really appreciate it.

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:39:30Mike Rowe?

  Anything you want people to know? Any... I mean, aside from listening to your music? Is there any... And rooting for the Steelers? You don't care?

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  Oh, no. I just think this whole thing has been... It's been a great conversation. I enjoy myself, as a fan, the podcast, and no, I just... Just want people to be well-read, well-informed, and thoughtful.

• 1:39:54Mike Rowe?

  Do you know Selena Zito?

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  Unfortunately for her, I'm doing a thing with her soon. But yeah, she's a... She's a big deal.

• 1:40:04Mike Rowe?

  She's the reason you and I are talking right now.

• 1:40:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Mike Rowe?

  She's a friend of this podcast, and Selena called me and strongly suggested that I go to the conference where we met. I was on my way to Germany. It was about the most inconvenient time to do an inconvenient thing. But Selena is one of those storytellers.

• 1:40:25Speaker 02

  She's a connector.

• 1:40:26Mike Rowe?

  Yep. And so, I went. And she's gonna be a big part, I think, of telling all these stories, you know? She's terrific.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  She is an incredibly talented journalist, and in a day and age when many of them are under pressure to get clicks and all that, she's, you know...

• 1:40:50Mike Rowe?

  Talk about 12 feet from stardom, man. She was right there, in Butler, on the day. Front row seat to history.

• 1:41:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that... What we'd be experiencing today had that shot been different, I shudder to think about, but...

• 1:41:10Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, we all dodged a bullet.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think that's right.

• 1:41:15Mike Rowe?

  Anyway, folks, that's Thomas Tull. He's awesome. I'll talk to you next week.

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• 1:42:13Speaker 07

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• 1:42:37Speaker 05

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