Why Being Right Is Costing You Trust | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 4

Everyone says they want more accountability at work… yet few of us think we're the ones who need to learn how to be more accountable. Most of us believe we already know how to own a mistake. We've all said sorry and truly meant it. But meaning it and doing it well are two very different things. And when we’re the first to apologize, we model to everyone around us how cathartic accountability can be. Feelings at Work is a special five-part series from A Bit of Optimism, where Simon Sinek and Alex Simon, founder of LifeShop, explore the human skills that shape how we work, lead, and build relationships. Together, they unpack the emotional challenges most of us face every day—from people pleasing and listening to giving feedback, taking accountability, and having difficult conversations. In this episode, Simon and Alex take on accountability: why owning a mistake can feel like losing, why taking credit and dodging blame come from the same place, and what a real repair actually looks like. You'll discover why owning your part doesn't mean admitting you were wrong, why the confidence to say, "I got that wrong," is what actually makes people follow you, and how to repair something in a way that genuinely clears a pathway forward. Simon and Alex share practical tools like the "wheelie bag" rule for separating intent from impact, the two-part formula that turns an empty gesture into apologies people can actually feel, Alex's practice of "micro-accountability" for owning small things before they accumulate, and the one word that quietly cancels everything you said before it. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong ➡️ The two-part apology formula: what you actually did + the impact it had ➡️ How to name someone's hurt + leave room to be corrected ➡️ "Micro-accountability": owning the small stuff before it turns into the big stuff ➡️ Why people who take too much credit are the same people who dodge blame ➡️ What real confidence actually looks like ➡️ How to receive an apology and why refusing it is its own kind of failure ➡️ Why being uncoachable is the biggest problem at work ➡️ How to ask people to build the fix with you Whether you're leading a team, rebuilding trust with a colleague, or still quietly replaying an argument from three years ago, accountability is one of the most healing skills you can develop. And remember: owning your part is a gift you give the other person AND you give yourself. This... is A Bit of Optimism. + + + CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Why Nobody Thinks They Need to Learn How to Apologize 00:05:49 The Wheelie Bag Philosophy: What Saying Sorry Actually Means 00:08:52 Why People Who Take Too Much Credit Can't Handle Blame 00:10:15 Blame Culture: Why Our First Instinct Is Always to Point Fingers 00:13:37 The Difference Between Being Wrong and Taking Accountability 00:17:34 The Catharsis of Apologizing: Relief for Both Sides 00:24:04 The Leader Who Gives All Credit and Takes All Blame 00:27:55 The Anatomy of a Real Apology: Recognition Plus Impact 00:30:19 When Guessing the Impact Goes Wrong 00:33:46 Repair In Real-Time With Micro-Accountability 00:35:17 The Three-Part Apology That Finally Landed 00:41:06 How to Receive an Apology Without Twisting the Knife 00:43:18 When Sorry Isn't Enough Without Behavioral Change 00:46:16 When You Can't Just Fix It: Asking for Help With Repair 00:49:57 Why We All Think We Already Know How to Apologize 00:51:10 Accountability Is the Gateway to Trust + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek + + + About Alex Simon Alex Simon is the founder of Lifeshop, a school for adult emotional education and teaches emotional intelligence at Yale University. She teaches the emotional and communication skills we all should've learned in school—but didn't. She facilitates experiential workshops on how to have hard conversations, stop people pleasing, listen better, navigate major life transitions, and build healthier relationships. Her sessions are practical, deeply connective, and somehow shockingly fun. When she was 27, Alex created The Self & Other: In Theory and Practice, one of Yale's most sought-after courses. In 2025, she founded Lifeshop in New York to bring emotional education beyond the classroom and into everyday life. She also launched The School of Life in New York and leads workshops for organizations around the world. Before dedicating her career to emotional education, Alex worked as a management consultant at Bain and held strategy and operations roles across industries. She has also lived and trained at Plum Village and Esalen and completed dozens of programs in mindfulness, communication, and personal development.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  I think an apology is the highest form of accountability.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  I teach a lot of workshops and I decided to teach one on apologizing. We had a photographer that day. He was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. I say something like, oh, does anyone have anything they want to say? And he raises his hand and he's like, I had no idea. I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize. But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just, I didn't know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is going to change my whole marriage. It's one of these things that almost no one thinks that they need to work on.

• 0:27Simon Sinek?

  I think we all think we know how to do it.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:29Simon Sinek?

  Because we've done it. Okay, hot take. If you want a really quick and easy way to make my blood boil, the next time I sincerely share how I feel because of something you said or did, say, I'm sorry you feel that way. This is on the top of my list of non-apologies or deflections that so many people offer when confronted with negative impact from their words or actions. No one wants to look dumb or bad or wrong. No one wants to be told that we did something that caused pain to someone or did damage at work. And so we point fingers, offer excuses, and use words that take the spotlight off us. So let's start with our first accountability lesson.

• 1:13Simon Sinek?

  Let's all admit, we have done one or all of these things. And that's okay. There are some very simple ways we can get comfortable with accountability and know how to express it in ways that strengthens trust. Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five-episode series of A Bit of Optimism to go deep on human skills, those things that help us connect, collaborate, and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon, founder of Life Shop, where she teaches emotional intelligence, to join me. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier human interactions, like having hard conversations, people-pleasing, listening, and giving feedback.

• 1:57Simon Sinek?

  And this one, taking accountability. Now, when you hear accountability, you may be thinking KPIs or scorecards. That's not what I'm talking about. This is about knowing how to confidently own it when we mess up. There are three big ideas we're going to explore in this episode. First, there's a reason our apologies don't land. And it's not because our intent was off or the other person is unreasonable. It's because a lot of us are running software we installed when we were five years old and we never updated. We discuss why accountability is so hard and how to reprogram our approach. Next, if you've ever sat in a meeting and watched someone present your idea as theirs and then watched as that same person dodged responsibility when things went sideways,

• 2:42Simon Sinek?

  you're about to understand why. We uncover why taking credit and blame actually come from the same place deep inside our psyche and how we can resolve it. And finally, we're going to talk about what a real apology actually does, not just for the person receiving it, but for the person giving it. And something happens in the middle of that discussion that I did not expect. And it changed the way I feel about saying sorry. And I'll add just one more thing. This episode actually comes with a warning that by the end, you may have the urge to call someone about that thing that you've been trying to avoid owning up to. And if you enjoy this episode, also please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism.

• 3:31Simon Sinek?

  Let's talk about a very difficult topic. A sensitive topic, dare I say.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:37Simon Sinek?

  Especially when it comes to something like saying sorry. It's amazing how people don't know how to do it.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:42Simon Sinek?

  And how not knowing how to apologize or doing it in a way that you think is self-preserving actually can inflame a situation at worst and at best, damage trust.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  I really agree. And for me, the apology is kind of how I got started on all of this in my life.

• 4:02Simon Sinek?

  I did not know this.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:03Simon Sinek?

  Saying sorry is your origin story?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  It's our origin story.

• 4:05Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Because when I was growing up, I had a parent who I will not name which parent, just in case they both listen to this.

• 4:12Simon Sinek?

  I'm gonna guess it's either your mom or your dad, but we won't say which one.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  One of my parents really struggled to take accountability. And they pretty much didn't apologize for anything my whole life, which is tricky because parents make mistakes because they are human. And so I've been really sensitive to apologies my whole life. I used to have an apology formula. And my sister and I, when we would get in fights, I'd be like, you have to apologize in this way. And she would say, this is too rigid. And it probably was too rigid. But I've always taken apologies really, really seriously. And maybe four years ago, I got in a fight with my boyfriend at the time. And he said a classic apology, which is, I'm sorry that you feel that way.

• 4:53Simon Sinek?

  Oh.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  I had explained to him the rigid formula of apologizing many times. And he said it and I just kind of lost it. And at the beginning, I was angry because I felt like, oh, you know, you haven't listened to this thing that I have said is important to me. And then I also felt a lot of compassion. I mean, I taught you how to apologize, but no one generally teaches people how to apologize.

• 5:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  And so we expect that other people know how to take accountability for things. We expect that people know how to repair and how to move on and how to actually reconnect after things have gone south. But like, really, it's something that no one teaches.

• 5:23Simon Sinek?

  It's so complex emotionally. And when somebody says, I'm sorry you feel that way, instantly, like, there's a little switch that makes me into a bit of an asshole.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:31Simon Sinek?

  And I know what's happened because it's happened multiple times because many people say, I'm sorry you feel that way. And my stock instant response is, you cannot apologize for how I feel. You can only apologize for the thing that you did that made me feel this way. And this is what people don't understand when they're the ones who have to do the apologizing. It's catharsis for the person who's being apologized to. I had a fight with a friend. We had an argument. I was sensitive about something, I don't know what. And...

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm so curious.

• 5:59Simon Sinek?

  Something, something. And I said, you know, this thing that you did, you know, it upset me, you know? And she goes, well, it shouldn't. I'm like, but it did. You know, she goes, well, I didn't mean it. I'm like, I know you didn't. But I still feel this way because you did that. And she goes, well, I shouldn't have to apologize. And I'm like, but you did that and I feel this way. And it's, we're talking about accountability. And she just couldn't go there. She absolutely refused. And it's getting more and more heated. She's getting frustrated, I'm getting frustrated. And I said, I can make this stop immediately if you want this to stop immediately. She goes, yes, I would like this to stop immediately. I said, it's very simple. Just copy what I'm going to tell you. Just say, I'm sorry. She says, I'm sorry.

• 6:43Simon Sinek?

  I said, thank you. I'm good. And this is what I find amazing, which is when somebody gives a heartfelt sorry, because it's really hard to say I'm sorry.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  It's so hard.

• 6:52Simon Sinek?

  It's very hard to say, right? And I was fine. I literally, all of this stress, all the tension went away. Even telling her what to say to me, that she would say it, the catharsis worked and I was good and the whole thing diffused. And it was a lesson for her. She goes, I never realized that, that I thought the apology was me sort of admitting that I'm at fault. And I'm like, no, it's just taking accountability for the piece. And this is one of the great lessons I've learned about saying sorry, which is saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. All it means is you take accountability for the thing that you said or did. That's all it means. And my analogy that I love to use, if you're at the airport and you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag,

• 7:35Simon Sinek?

  your wheelie bag accidentally rolls over someone's foot. You turn to look at them, they look at you, and you say, what? And they go, say sorry. Like, no, you ran over my foot. I didn't mean to.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  That's a really, it's a really good analogy, yeah.

• 7:50Simon Sinek?

  But we always say sorry. Do you know why we say sorry? Because it's our wheelie bag. Yes, we did not intend to run over someone's foot, but it is our wheelie bag. And so when you run over someone's foot, you immediately turn around and say, I'm so sorry. And they're like, don't worry about it.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:02Simon Sinek?

  Right? That's how accountability works, which is even if you didn't intend it, it's still your words, it's still your actions, it's still your wheelie bag. Just take accountability for those things and we're good.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:15Simon Sinek?

  Nobody's looking for right or wrong. We're looking for accountability for words or actions. That's all it means. So apologies are one part of accountability.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:23Simon Sinek?

  Let's talk about credit.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:26Simon Sinek?

  There are people who take credit for everything. They think it helps make them look good and make them impressive. And I've seen this happen. I was literally in a meeting where there was a discussion and let's say person B had an amazing idea in the meeting. Okay? We all agreed that was an amazing idea. We then went to the second meeting. And then the second meeting, person A was like, so I had this idea.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:53Simon Sinek?

  And I'm looking at person B and we're like, WTF? Right? We're like, first of all, not that person's idea. Like, I heard you say it. And second of all, at best, or at worst, rather, just say we had an idea because we were all in the room. But like, I listened to this person and go, I had an idea. And then tells everybody the idea. And it was like, that's a great idea. It was an amazing thing to wish this person take excessive and too much amount of credit and not very good at sharing it, the accumulation of it. It was a flag and I started paying attention. I didn't say anything, I just started paying attention. And then I also noticed something that I think goes along with people who take too much credit is when things go wrong, it's never their fault.

• 9:36Simon Sinek?

  And I think blame and, and not knowing how to take credit properly are bedfellows. And the reason is because I think the root of both of them is the same.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  It's like diffusing responsibility into someone else when things go south. And when things go right, you're taking it all on.

• 9:52Simon Sinek?

  Right, right. And I think they're born out of the same thing, which is insecurity. Blame is the opposite of accountability and it is pointing to anything other than yourself for why something went badly.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:05Simon Sinek?

  You can blame another person, you can blame circumstances, you can blame the weather, you can blame whatever you want. Those things often show up in bad apologies. I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:17Simon Sinek?

  True.

• 10:20Simon Sinek?

  Right? And I know why people do it. It's because it has the appearance of accountability, but it sort of waters it down a little bit. I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic is different than I'm sorry I was late. Oh, the traffic. You can still get it in there, but you and I both know this. The minute you say the word but, like literally, it negates the thing that lets, that's actually what the word but does.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:41Simon Sinek?

  It negates everything that came before it. I'm sorry, but you started it.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Simon Sinek?

  I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have said that if you didn't say that first.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  And I feel like this is so the water that we're swimming in that we don't even notice that this is our first reaction. Like something happens, and at least for me, my first reaction is to find someone to blame in my head. And I have to actively stop myself from doing that.

• 11:00Simon Sinek?

  By the way, I think that's normal.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  I think it's super normal.

• 11:02Simon Sinek?

  I think we all do.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:03Simon Sinek?

  Because it doesn't feel good to be wrong or hurt someone or make a bad decision or whatever it is. It doesn't feel good. It's much easier to blame the weather, to blame another person.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  And I just think it's the culture that we're in. And so we live in like a very blame forward culture, which is just tragic, but it's also part of our, and it's part of our experience.

• 11:21Simon Sinek?

  And it's equally unhealthy to always blame yourself.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:23Simon Sinek?

  Because sometimes it is other things. I'll tell you my favorite accountability story. You see this a lot in like people in finance.

• 11:31Simon Sinek?

  I wonder why? That when everything goes right, like when they like make tons of money and they're like, 20% portfolio of growth, wah wah wah, right? It's because they're geniuses.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 11:42Simon Sinek?

  I achieved 20% growth, right? But if the portfolio loses 20%, it's always the market conditions.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  The market conditions, of course.

• 11:48Simon Sinek?

  Right. It's always the market conditions. Like the portfolio lost 20% this year, but you, it's easy to understand if you understand the conditions of the market this, this season. The funny thing is I'm, I don't mind either logic, but you can't mix your logics, right? You can either be the genius, I'm fine with that, but then when things go down, then you're the idiot. That would be correct. That would be linear logic. Or you can either be the luckiest bastard in the world because it's going up and just really unlucky because it went down. Right? You can't mix your logics.

• 12:16Simon Sinek?

  But what it is, is I like to take credit and I don't like to take responsibility. So Alex, we've talked a little bit about blame, saying sorry, credit. What is the root? What is getting in the way of why people do blame? Why people can't say sorry, don't know how to apologize and don't know how to effectively take credit or give credit?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so unbelievably hard. First of all, I think we don't really know, we're never really taught how and we're not really modeled how because of this culture that we're in.

• 12:46Simon Sinek?

  So one is skills.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, one is skills. I think when we're kids, you're taught like, I'm sorry is like, thank you. It's like, take this thing, say thank you. It's like, you mess this up, say, say you're sorry, say you're sorry. And they're like, I'm sorry. And that's kind of a complete sentence. And so then as adults, we both, that's the problem. We're saying I'm sorry all the time with the wheelie bag. But then like when it actually comes down to it, we don't know, how do I actually take responsibility for something?

• 13:08Simon Sinek?

  I think when people take accountability, they think it's a sign of weakness.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Simon Sinek?

  I think they confuse taking accountability and being wrong.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we have such an intense fear of being wrong.

• 13:16Simon Sinek?

  Wants to be wrong.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Although I think just on the subject of being wrong, just like we've talked about everything else, just like getting constructive feedback is something that at the beginning is really uncomfortable, but then once you get used to it, you kind of crave it. I think that ability to be wrong is also something that you can kind of, in an awesome way, build the muscle of. And then all of a sudden you want to be learning and be figuring out, okay, where am I wrong? How can I be updating my perspective on something?

• 13:37Simon Sinek?

  And this goes back to that funny skill, which is I don't think people know how to be wrong.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:41Simon Sinek?

  Most people think of wrong as empirical, like it's a math formula, right? That here's the answer. You either are right or you are wrong. It is empirical, right? But in many things, that's sometimes true. Sometimes it is empirical, you know, and there is right and wrong. But, but very often it's subjective. And so when I say people don't know how to be wrong, I'll give you an example. I made a call. It was the wrong call and it had a negative impact on the company, the team, the revenue, whatever, right? And everybody knows it because I made the decision. And I could say, well, that was the best, you know, like I could sort of like go around it and be like, well, how was I supposed to know? Or I'm just trying to do the best I can, right?

• 14:24Simon Sinek?

  Which are all deflections of accountability. And so let's say I'm like, all right, I'm going to take accountability and I'm going to admit that I was wrong, right? There's a couple of ways to do it and people get it wrong. When we say,

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Only empirically.

• 14:38Simon Sinek?

  This is what people think, right? Hey, that decision, um, I was wrong. And uh, I should have asked for more advice. Um, I was too quick. And uh, yeah, I'm, I'm sorry I was wrong. And that's what most people think when they talk about admitting you're wrong. They think that tone of voice, which is defeatist, it's weak. It's humiliating. When you have a growth mindset and you recognize that you have inherent value and that sometimes you make mistakes, saying you're wrong can come out completely differently. For example, so that decision, I was completely wrong.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:20Simon Sinek?

  I should have asked for more advice. I made the decision too quickly and yep, I.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  And here's what I learned from it.

• 15:28Simon Sinek?

  And I completely made the wrong decision. And owning the, the accountability versus fearing the accountability, that is what makes people follow you.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:38Simon Sinek?

  It's not that you get things right. And this is what people get wrong, which is they think that if I get everything right, I'm a credible leader. If I get everything right, people will follow me and trust me. Incorrect, because everybody knows that you're not perfect and nobody is. And everybody knows when you made a mistake, like everybody knows. And owning it, the confidence to own it is what makes somebody want to follow you. That makes you build trust. And it's not humiliating.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:07Simon Sinek?

  It is a growth mindset and sets an incredible tone for any team, whether you're the leader or not.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  We think that we need to be strong in this kind of like puffed up chest, like I'm not making mistakes way. When actually it's like, that's actually a really brittle sign of strength and true strength is what I'm hearing from what you're saying is being able to admit, oh, this thing didn't get it right. This is what I learned. Like we're still okay.

• 16:28Simon Sinek?

  You're making a nuanced observation that I think is worth just under, underlining for just a second, which is people puff up and act strong to uh, promote themselves or their position, whatever it is, and project confidence. And they think projecting confidence is being bombastic and giving excuses and proving that I'm infallible, right? But what they're recognizing is that is false confidence.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:55Simon Sinek?

  It is theatrical confidence, the kind of confidence you play, you know, when you're playing that character. True confidence, it is, you know, better posture and holding up. And it visually looks the same, but for the fact that true confidence is the ability to admit fallibility with confidence.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Simon Sinek?

  Superficially, they look very similar, which is why I think people opt for one and not the other. And the puffing up is easier and the other one is more difficult because the irony is they think it comes with risk and it actually doesn't.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  I love the focus on how it gives catharsis to the person receiving the apology. I also personally think it gives catharsis to the person giving the apology. Like for me, I've noticed when I mess something up, it's still my first instinct to be defensive, to kind of steel myself off, to try to figure out why this thing wasn't my fault. Like those are still my instincts. And then the, the second I'm able to eke out a, I'm sorry, even if at the beginning I'm like kind of saying it through gritted teeth, I feel like it opens the door for me to actually express my feeling, which often is like genuine remorse that I'm kind of protecting myself from, from a lot of the time. But like, once I say the words, then something relieves, gets relieved in my system. There's also catharsis for me. And then it opens the door of like, oh, what, what are the things that I can take accountability for?

• 18:10Simon Sinek?

  It does relieve tension, right? If you go back to the wheelie bag example, right? If failure to say, uh, uh, sorry, that will escalate.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:17Simon Sinek?

  You know, saying sorry de-escalates.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it connects also, I feel like. And for me, I think often I don't want to apologize first. Not because I don't feel bad and because I can't see the part that I can own, but because I have a fear almost that if I apologize first, if I take responsibility for my piece first, that means somehow that I will have lost the fight and I will be wrong. And then I will lose, I'll basically be forfeiting the opportunity for them to recognize how they also hurt me or how their actions also impacted me.

• 18:46Simon Sinek?

  What's so interesting about knowing how to apologize is it models behavior, right?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:51Simon Sinek?

  That when one person does it and does it effectively, it very often, I'd say more often than not, creates an environment for the other person to just take a deep breath, let the stress go down and also take accountability.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Simon Sinek?

  And very often we think that if you say you're sorry first, it means the admission of guilt or that you're wrong or that you caused it. It doesn't. It just means you're the first person to take accountability for your share in whatever happened. Maybe they did start something, but your reaction wasn't great. You can say sorry for that, which creates the conditions for everybody to take accountability. If we go back to what a leader is, we call you leader, not because you are at the top of the organization. We call you leader because you went first. You literally led the way. And so I would argue that anybody who chooses to lead a leadership lifestyle will model behavior, whether they have position of rank or authority or not. And by leading the way and saying the, taking accountability for your, whatever your part is, even if it was the second part,

• 19:45Simon Sinek?

  you're creating a safe space for somebody who struggles with apologies to then say sorry. And it almost always works. I have a horrible one where it didn't, where somebody really did wrong me and they really were out of line. My reaction, my initial reaction wasn't great, but after that, it was just a very difficult situation that created massive amounts of tension. And I could never get an apology or an accountability for this person. The relationship was destroyed. And so I decided in an effort to repair the relationship, that I would go first. And so I met up with this person and I said, you know, we both know what happened and I just want to say that I'm sorry for the way I reacted. It's not the way I like to show up and I'm sorry that I, I spoke to you that way. And he looked at me and, good.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 20:28Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  He didn't say anything back?

• 20:29Simon Sinek?

  Nothing. He just stared at me. And I know going in that taking accountability, you should never expect it, right? Like you should never do it for that reason.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:37Simon Sinek?

  You take accountability because it's, you know, the other person would be like, I'm sorry, I put my foot in front of your bag, you know?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:43Simon Sinek?

  Like you don't do it for the other person. It's not to instigate something. It's, it should be genuine. And maybe that's my mistake. Maybe I did do it with the hope that it would pave the way for him.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Was that your thinking?

• 20:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:55Simon Sinek?

  And, and maybe there was some sort of, well, I'll, I'll be the leader. I'll be the good one here and let's see what happens, right? But I, I gave the benefit of the doubt, right? And maybe that was my mistake. And I apologized for my share and he literally just looked at me and went, okay, good. And I was like,

• 21:11Speaker 01

  That's it?

• 21:11Simon Sinek?

  I was like, hmm, you know? He's like, what? I was like, is there anything you want to add? He's like,

• 21:21Simon Sinek?

  No.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Really?

• 21:22Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. Needless to say, that was the last time I ever saw him.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:25Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I got up and walked away. I was like, this is clearly somebody I can't do business with. Because there is an absolute refusal to share in the accountability for the situation that has been created. How can I ever work with this person ever again? I literally got up and walked away. I said, alright, I think we're done then. I, I'm sorry it went this way. And I, I walked away. And I, I think that's the only time I've ever done that in my life. Just got up and walked away because it had literally reached a point where there was nothing I could do. It was over. I, I gave, what in retrospect, my mistake was maybe I was being self righteous by thinking, I'll be the good one and take the, and take the apology first. I was scraping the barrel to look for something, you know, that I did wrong.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Like this one minute of our.

• 22:08Simon Sinek?

  So there's one thing that I said, you know, like, but I, I had hoped that creating the environment. But I think what had happened there is the relationship was already over. And I'm like, what am I doing? You know, and, and may, and maybe I did it for my own, for me. Like I needed to exorcise the demons and get the narrative stuff rolling around in my head. And in this case, maybe I said the sorry more for me than for the situation.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  And I also think that that makes sense. Sometimes you need to do, you need to own all of your parts as much as you can. That way you can know, well, at least I did everything.

• 22:40Simon Sinek?

  And I do. I think it did exorcise a lot of demons for me. Cause I'm like, I owned my part of it and I'm, I'm good.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  And there's relief in that, I think.

• 22:46Simon Sinek?

  But now what I think is really interesting and this is what I'm learning in this conversation as we're having it, is if you need to apologize for yourself, for your own catharsis, because we said, yes, the person you apologize to gets catharsis, but the person who gives the apology can find catharsis too. It did allow me to stop the narrative swirling around in my head and the anger and the blame that was swirling around in my head. Like he did this to me and like, and sleepless nights and all of this stuff. And me just sort of owning my little bit and doing the right thing and putting it on the table and allowing that person. I actually was, I was okay.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  And that's, even as you were telling the story, I was thinking about however many years have passed since this happened.

• 23:26Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Like for me, when I, when I know that I did something that I regret doing and I don't take accountability for it. The way that that like continues to fester in my being is so shitty.

• 23:37Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, cause you know.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Cause you know, and then you both know that you did it. And then you also are in a place of really intense cognitive dissonance. Cause you're also trying to, trying to convince yourself that it's not your fault and it's someone else's fault. But then on a deeper level, you kind of know. I still have things that I have, I don't think I've fully taken accountability for. And like, that's a really painful thing. It's like trying to convince myself of a narrative that like a different part of me knows that I don't believe. And I think the owning of it is the catharsis also for yourself.

• 24:04Simon Sinek?

  And the pin on credit and blame I want to put in is, I think, as I said, they are, they're bedfellows.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:10Simon Sinek?

  And we've talked about negative examples. People who blame too much, people who take credit too much. It's hard to trust them, especially when you start to figure it out. One of the best leaders I know, he's a leader that I admire. I try to model myself after, after, he is astonishing. And I talk about this all the time, which is one of the, one of the really shitty things about being a leader. And the choice to live the leadership lifestyle, one of the really uncomfortable things is you have to give away all the credit and take all the blame. Like when things go wrong, it's on you because you're the leader. And when things go right, it's because everybody else, right? That's just how it works. And I've seen it modeled by this guy I know who is astonishing. And if you pay him any compliment, it's amazing what you accomplished.

• 24:54Simon Sinek?

  He'd be like, it was, it was my team. It was them. I, I played a bit role. And I'm like, no, man, you, you, you, it's like, yeah, I mean, sure, but you gotta see this team I've got.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  And is it genuine?

• 25:07Simon Sinek?

  It is a hundred percent genuine. He oozes with gratitude for the people who sacrificed to serve him. And then I've seen the opposite. When things go sideways, he goes, the buck stops here. The buck stops here. Maybe I should have intervened more. Maybe I should have checked in more often. Maybe I should have given better direction. But at the end of the day, the reason it went wrong, if you want to look for somebody to blame, you blame me. And the result is, he has credibility through the roof. People will die for him, you know? People will change career paths to be with him. And everybody from very senior people to the most junior people worship him. He is so respected and he's so humble, the way he goes through life. And the reason he reeks of humility.

• 25:51Simon Sinek?

  Just a quick aside, my favorite definition of humility is by Bob Gaylor, who was the, uh, former chief master sergeant of the air force. He said, don't confuse humility with meekness. He said humility is being open to the ideas of others, which I love.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:06Simon Sinek?

  And it's not, ah, shucks. That's not, that's meekness. Humility is like, that's a great idea. Your idea is better than mine. And the ability to give credit is humble.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:19Simon Sinek?

  And this leader, he's insanely senior and insanely powerful. And he goes through life with deep unfettered gratitude to those who give and work hard. He goes through life, accepting that it's on his shoulders. And he also maintains high standards. So when somebody screws up, he will tell you. When something goes horribly wrong and someone's irresponsible, he will tell you. So I don't want people to confuse that giving credit and taking blame means that you let go of standards. He does not. And it's an amazing thing to witness.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  It sounds incredible. Yeah, it sounds really inspiring. And it also sounds like it has like a cascading effect.

• 26:57Simon Sinek?

  It makes everybody wants to be a better leader around him.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:59Simon Sinek?

  And it creates conditions of everybody to give credit and take blame. He's surrounded by people like, no boss, I did that. He's like, I should have been there to help you more. He's like, no, no, no, I did it, boss. No, I'll fix it, boss, you know?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  I feel like that is the paradox of accountability though. It's like when someone takes their part of accountability, it feels like you're gonna lose. But then actually it inspires other people to take accountability for their part too. When it's done genuinely and not when it works.

• 27:23Simon Sinek?

  And it makes for a great team because everybody takes accountability. And it is ideally by the leader.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And I also think we're talking about it as if it's very simple, but this is, I find it, it's so hard to do.

• 27:33Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no, it's very, very hard. Like any professional, like a professional baseball player makes it look easy. That's one of the arts of being great at what you do is you make it look easy.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's so, they, all of these things are so simple, but not easy.

• 27:45Simon Sinek?

  Okay, let's talk about apologies.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Okay, let's talk about it.

• 27:46Simon Sinek?

  Cause that's the elephant in the room that really is.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  How do we actually do it?

• 27:50Simon Sinek?

  How does one actually apologize? Okay, let us hear, please, please share your rigid.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  No, I'm.

• 27:56Simon Sinek?

  Apology formula.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  The first thing that I think about is recognition of what happened in a specific way. This to me is maybe the most important thing is often when we apologize, for me, just saying the words, I'm sorry, doesn't do anything. The things we know don't work. I'm sorry, just for me, I'm sorry, period, doesn't really do that much. It feels like a script. I'm sorry, but we talked about this, like that negates it. Um, I'm sorry that you feel that way. These are like the, the three, like definitely don'ts. I think the alternative is to recognize both what happened and also the impact on the other person. And so this avoids the like vague, like, I'm, I'm sorry, you know, they're like, I'm sorry that you're hurt or you're like, there's this kind of like, these big statements that don't, for me, don't actually land with anything. It's like, well, what, what are you sorry for?

• 28:40Simon Sinek?

  They're more attempts to try and end the.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:43Simon Sinek?

  Fight or end the tension rather than take actual accountability.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  When it comes to recognizing with specificity, I'm like, I like to recognize, okay, literally, what did I do? And what is the impact that it had? For example, it could be like, I'm really sorry that I canceled last minute. And I imagine that it made you feel like you were in a priority. And I really want to own that that is how it could have impacted you. And so it's not just like, I'm sorry for what happened. That's another one that I think is a big don't. Or I'm sorry, I'm sorry for what I did. It's like, okay, well, what did you do? What did you do? And have you taken the time to empathetically imagine how did that make me feel? And that to me, those two prongs of like recognition of what happened, of my piece of what happened, and also the impact that it had on me, that's a really beautiful combination.

• 29:25Simon Sinek?

  I a hundred percent agree. I a hundred percent agree that the apology should be specific. I'm sorry that things happened.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:32Simon Sinek?

  Right?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  It's like, okay.

• 29:34Simon Sinek?

  Okay. You know, I'm sorry I showed up late to your party. I'm sorry I, I dropped the ball.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:41Simon Sinek?

  On the project that you assigned to me. Those are, those are great. Those are specific. I'm sorry I didn't communicate sooner when things went wrong and then things got out of hand. And when you talk about impact, it doesn't necessarily have to be feelings like, and I know I let my team down. Right? Then I completely agree with the apology. I think that is very effective and very powerful. In fact, even saying it hypothetically now, I'm like, that's a good apology.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  I also thought that, I was like, wow, thank you.

• 30:06Simon Sinek?

  Thank you, I feel, thank you, I feel better.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  And you know what? It's okay.

• 30:11Simon Sinek?

  We will get through it and we won't let it happen again.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:13Simon Sinek?

  Where it goes sideways, which is you have to actually know what you did. And you actually have to know what the implications were.

• 30:25Simon Sinek?

  Because I've had somebody guess and they guessed wrong. The actual impact, it is, I can't believe you missed the deadline. Well, I mean, what do you mean I missed the deadline? Do you have any idea the impact that it had on everybody else? Well, what impact did it have on us? They were waiting for you and you just disappeared and turned off your email and didn't answer your phone. And we didn't know what the hell was going on. And now we're all waiting for this thing from you. Well, I'm sorry. You know, that's not gonna work. It's like, oh, my God, I didn't realize.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:50Simon Sinek?

  I am so sorry that I was unavailable when you were relying on me and that I let the team down. Cause you know, and the idea of guessing is not an apology. It devalues the formula we're giving.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  I agree, and I think it depends on how you guess. I think guessing is really important as long as you leave space to be corrected.

• 31:10Simon Sinek?

  That's important.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  And so when I guess, I guess about how the impact that it had on someone. And then I kind of ended on a question mark to be like, is that right?

• 31:18Simon Sinek?

  Let's finish your scenario. You said, I apologize for showing up late.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  I imagine that it made you feel like you weren't being prioritized and that your time was being wasted.

• 31:25Simon Sinek?

  No, that's not it at all, I would say.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  And then I'd be like, oh, okay.

• 31:28Simon Sinek?

  That's not it at all, because now I'm recognizing you're apologizing for the wrong thing, right?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:31Simon Sinek?

  I'm like, no.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  It's not that, it's this thing.

• 31:33Simon Sinek?

  It's not that, it's that I was so excited for all my friends to meet you. And then you just didn't show up and it was humiliating.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so then it's like, okay, cool. Now I have the information I need. If I take my ego out of it, and it's not like, oh, I need to know exactly what I'm guessing and like what the other person is feeling. But I'm more like on a, I'm like on a curiosity mission. So I can understand where the person is coming from. It goes to what we were saying, what we talked about in our hard conversations episode of like, hard conversations are a chance for us to mutually understand. So if I make a guess and it's wrong, great. Now I have the information that I actually need, which is, oh, you're excited. You want me to be there because I'm important to you. So it's not you feeling deprioritized by me. It's that you wanna, whatever, increase our connection by introducing me to your friends or whatever.

• 32:15Simon Sinek?

  So let's summarize, a good apology is not, I'm sorry, but.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:19Simon Sinek?

  It's not, whatever, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that happened.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not, I'm sorry that you feel that way.

• 32:24Simon Sinek?

  I'm sorry, oh, my God, the worst. I'm sorry you feel that way. None of those are actual apologies. They're all deflections or diffusions, right? A real apology is specific, based on words said or actions performed, or not. Not said or not performed.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:38Simon Sinek?

  And a recognition of what happened.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the impact that it had on.

• 32:42Simon Sinek?

  The recognition of the impact. That's a good apology.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And that the impacts can be different from my intentions.

• 32:46Simon Sinek?

  Like I didn't intend for my wheelie bag to run over your foot.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:49Simon Sinek?

  But it did.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  But it did.

• 32:50Simon Sinek?

  And I am sorry. The reason I'm okay with the, the, I'm sorry, is because I think the specificity is sometimes understood in the situation. And I'll use my wheelie bag example again. When I run over someone's foot with my wheelie bag and turn around and I say, I'm so sorry. It is very clear that I am apologizing for my bag running over their foot. I don't have to say, I am so sorry that my bag ran over your foot. That must really hurt your toes. It's a little much.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:15Simon Sinek?

  When I was fighting with my friend, it was very clear what we were fighting about. And it was very clear the impact that it had. It was a wheelie bag situation. Like there was no room for uncertainty.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  And maybe that works for you. For me, it wouldn't.

• 33:28Simon Sinek?

  So if, so if somebody runs over your, your foot with a wheelie bag.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no. In obvious low grades scenarios, obviously I don't need that. But in emotionally complex scenarios, for me, the specificity is what brings the catharsis.

• 33:39Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  One of my favorite tricks for accountability is to practice like a micro accountability.

• 33:44Simon Sinek?

  I'm sorry.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Because sometimes apologies don't need to be this big thing. We don't need to wait until things escalate and accumulate. And so if we just say something small that we regret, you can just own it in the moment. Like, uh, actually, sorry, that came out wrong. I, what I actually meant is this thing. And what that does is it kind of stops the defensiveness from accumulating, which then makes it harder and harder to apologize.

• 34:05Simon Sinek?

  So, right, I misspoke and saying, I'm sorry, I misspoke.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:09Simon Sinek?

  That's really interesting because it, again, it's accountability for the misstatement. We all make misstatements, but apologizing for the misstatement, rather than brushing over it or just acknowledging it, allows for the person on the receiving end to get past that misstatement and actually let it go quicker.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Rather than accumulating on both sides. Accumulating defensiveness on one side and resentment on the other side.

• 34:29Simon Sinek?

  And, and, and rather than denying that it was a mistake and trying to double down on the misstatement, just apologize and move on.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:34Simon Sinek?

  That's very good.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  So I think micro, micro apologies.

• 34:36Simon Sinek?

  In the moment.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Micro repair is a really good one.

• 34:38Simon Sinek?

  What I think is so interesting about this conversation, kind of like what we've talked about in other episodes, about giving compliments or giving feedback, which is you kind of have to learn a little bit about how somebody wants their apology. Like you have to check in. My standard is a little different than yours.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Totally. And, and.

• 34:56Simon Sinek?

  Yours is higher than mine.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Famously, when I was a child. Yeah.

• 35:01Simon Sinek?

  I'm okay with the apology as long as, as long as it's obvious what's being apologized for. And very often it is. I think time has a component, you know, like in a situation, I think it's pretty obvious. But if the situation is drawn out, you know, over the course of, you know, days or weeks, then I think you need to make reference to what has happened.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll share a personal story of a recent time that I had a really hard time apologizing. I was in a fight with someone who I was dating and I did something that was clearly a mistake, but also really impacted him. And he was very hurt. And I was really focused on how it was a mistake. How obviously I didn't mean to hurt him because I know that my intentions are good. And I'm often in the trap that I've discussed before, which is, oh, I know my intentions are good. Therefore, if it's clashing with how it's impacting you in a bad way, I'm like, well, how is that possible? My intentions are good. I never want to hurt anyone. But he was clearly very hurt and I was being defensive. I was like justifying my position rather than just acknowledging his pain and expressing that the thing that was true to me, which is that I was very sorry that I made this mistake.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  So I was being defensive, being defensive, and he was just like, why can't you just say you're sorry? And so he, similar situation, like gave me the scripted, I'm sorry. And so I took it and I said, okay, I'm sorry. And at the beginning, the first, I said it and I like, didn't really mean it, I would say. Like I was saying the words, but I was still. I know, but they seem like it's so hard. Why is it so hard? And I was saying the words, but more in a like, I want this to be over way. And like, you're making me say this thing.

• 36:26Simon Sinek?

  Which is much akin to, I'm sorry, you feel that way.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:29Simon Sinek?

  I mean, it's same.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  It's the same family.

• 36:32Simon Sinek?

  Same, same family.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  And I said it and I like clearly forced it out, clearly didn't mean it. But then he took it like it was real. And he was like, thank you, thank you so much. It really hurt. And then when he said that, I looked at him, a person who I love. And I was like, wow, I really hurt him.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I do feel sorry.

• 36:54Simon Sinek?

  So the actual remorse came after you got the response.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:58Simon Sinek?

  Very interesting.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  And then a few minutes passed, we were kind of like in awkward silence. We were kind of just sitting there and the waves of realization just started hitting me of like, okay, why am I defending myself that I didn't wake up early to go to this thing that I know really mattered to him? Why am I so invested in making sure that he knows that I didn't do it on purpose? Like the reality is that I didn't go to this thing. He matters to me, it matters to him.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  And so then after a few minutes, I said, wait, actually, I am really sorry.

• 37:29Simon Sinek?

  Beautiful.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  And I elaborated my apology and I owned both what happened and the impact. And then he softened even more. And then.

• 37:37Simon Sinek?

  Oh, this is so good.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  And then a few minutes passed and like, we kind of got over it. He forgave me.

• 37:42Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  It was over. And then like half an hour later, it hit me even more. Like, wow, I really wish I didn't do this thing. And on an even deeper level, and I could apologize again, even though the conversation was over, like everything was done. The third apology definitely wasn't necessary, but I was able to find genuine regret.

• 38:01Simon Sinek?

  Here's the very, very, very, very important insight that you are revealing.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 38:07Simon Sinek?

  No, no, it's so important.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  It's so important.

• 38:10Simon Sinek?

  Which is the point of an effective apology is it does, in fact, relieve tension. That's what it actually does. And if somebody gives a false sorry, a false apology, I'm sorry, or I'm sorry, but, or I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings. They will walk away from that situation, I'm talking about the apologizer, will walk away from the situation, still angry, still seething, still having some twisted narrative about the other person in their brain, which means they have not apologized or taken accountability sufficiently to relieve their own guilt.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:46Simon Sinek?

  And my point is the body knows, the body knows. So even when you gave a forced apology, even if he believed it, your body, you knew that you actually had more. And so the value of an effective apology allows the apologizer to also let go of the hurt and the tension and the guilt. And it's not just a gift to the other person, it is a gift to you. And sometimes it goes back to my scenario of me apologizing, maybe I said I was being self righteous. But no, as I'm thinking like, when somebody goes through Alcoholics Anonymous, one of the first things they have to do is they have to make amends. And they literally make a list of all the people they've wronged and they just start calling people.

• 39:31Simon Sinek?

  I had a friend call me, a friend I hadn't talked to in years, like an old friend from another time. Nothing happened, we just fell out of touch. Out of the blue, calls me and just says, hey, I know we haven't talked in a while. I just want to apologize for that time you lent me that thing and I broke it and gave it back to you and denied that I broke it, which is exactly what happened. I'm like, wait, I gave it this to you, not broken. Why is it broken? I didn't do it. I'm like, uh, okay.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:53Simon Sinek?

  Years later, I'm like, I'm over it, you know? Years later, calls me and apologizes. It wasn't for me. The reason alcoholics have to make amends is for them.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:01Simon Sinek?

  Because they carry the guilt.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like microplastics in your soul.

• 40:05Simon Sinek?

  It's like microplastics in your soul. And so here's what we're advocating. The apology is as much for you as it is for the other person and the situation.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:14Simon Sinek?

  That you will let go of your own anger, your own narrative. Because only when you gave the false apology, did your brain be like, whoa, no. That you were harboring it until you actually made a real apology, then you could relax.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:31Simon Sinek?

  And I find that absolutely beautiful. And so there wasn't a self righteousness when I apologized. I just needed to get it out.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:38Simon Sinek?

  I need to alleviate my tension for the part that I got wrong. And even if he was incapable, that's on him. And the cost was the relationship. And if that's the cost, then that's the cost.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  And that's tragic. And sometimes something horrible happens, some mistakes are made and we can't take them back. And the only thing we can do is take accountability. And.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  And in that case, that's a gift that we give other people. And that's sometimes the only thing we can do.

• 41:06Simon Sinek?

  There's one glaring hole that we haven't talked about.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 41:11Simon Sinek?

  We have been spending all of our time talking about the person who's doing the apologizing.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:15Simon Sinek?

  But what about the person who's being apologized to? They play a role as well. And so we've talked about how to give an apology, but do people know how to receive one?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Also so hard.

• 41:24Simon Sinek?

  Also so hard. I think sometimes when somebody gives a genuine heartfelt, honest, good apology, and the other person fails to receive it, or receives it, brushes it aside and starts attacking.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:38Simon Sinek?

  And says like, thank you, because you do that all the time to me. And I'm just, I kind of have this, and like, never let that happen again. How dare you? It's like, there's a point at which, when an apology is good and heartfelt, you have to receive it. And rejecting the apology over and over and over again, I think is as irresponsible as failing to apologize.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  I agree. It's a tender thing when someone comes to you and says, and actually takes responsibility for something. I sometimes have the instinct to do exactly what you're saying, like to twist the knife, to be like, and these other things that you did wrong, and this is da, da, da, da, da. I think it's very normal. And it's almost like when someone takes responsibility for their part, we want to like, show them the whole tsunami of all the things that they're also not taking responsibility for. We want to be even more right. But I think that we need to let that instinct go in the moment.

• 42:25Simon Sinek?

  Let's bring it back to work, right? I'm so sorry I missed the deadline, and I'm so sorry I didn't communicate, and I know I let the team down. Okay? And then the person receiving that apology goes, yeah, you do this to us all the time. There's no reason to twist the knife. They are genuinely trying to take accountability. And the correct response is, thank you, I hear you. Let us work together. I will help you if you need it to ensure that this doesn't happen again in the future.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:50Simon Sinek?

  Because I know it hurts you, and I know, I can hear the pain, and we will work together to ensure this doesn't happen again. Okay?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:59Simon Sinek?

  And the other person, yes, okay. So to be future oriented, when you're on the receiving end of the apology, I know what happened in the past is what they're apologizing for. But the minute that you recognize that the apology, the apologizer is genuinely trying.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:11Simon Sinek?

  And genuinely heartfelt, you have to change the lenses on your glasses to go from the rearview mirror to the windshield.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 43:17Simon Sinek?

  You have to start looking forwards.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  I agree. And that also brings us to the next part of a good apology, which is what do you do about repair? And to me, an apology is half taking responsibility for what happened, and it's also taking responsibility for what you'll do differently next time. And so I think it's not just the, I'm sorry.

• 43:33Simon Sinek?

  Yes.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  This is what happened. And it's, it also involves a, and this is what I've learned from it. This is how things will be different. And not just saying those things and checking the box of saying them, but actually following through.

• 43:44Simon Sinek?

  If you get really good at apologizing, it may disincentivize you to actually fix things. Because you're so good at apologizing and just making the tensions go away and making people feel seen and heard. But at the end of the day, if all you do is repeat behavior and just keep apologizing, at some point, though the apologies are good and heartfelt, at some point, people will just stop trusting you. Because an apology is like college commencement. It's not the end of something, it's the beginning of something. You know? And we're talking, we're not talking about little apologies, right? If there's something systemic or something behavioral or something, you know, that you've got to work on fixing, whatever. And I'll use my example, I'm sorry, I missed the deadline and I didn't, I didn't communicate. And then somebody says, okay, so let's work together to fix that.

• 44:25Simon Sinek?

  And you make no attempts to schedule things or ask for help, or, and it just keeps repeating and repeating? We always say this at work, which is, you can't fire somebody for performance issues, and you can't fire somebody for behavioral issues. You can fire people if they're uncoachable. Because if you have performance or behavioral issues, I can coach you through either of those things. I can help you. But if you prove yourself to be uncoachable, in other words, there is no growth, then there's no place for you on this team. Because I can't fix the performance or the behavior, and I can't work, you won't fix the performance and the behavior, and I can't help you.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Simon Sinek?

  And so I think the same goes here, which is, I accept the apology, but now I need growth. Even if the growth is bumpy and stumbly, the momentum has to be forwards. And if you fail to commit to growth and repair for whatever has happened, especially if it's repetitive behavior, I think somebody really does put their job at risk. And the irony here is, taking accountability is not what gets you fired. It's failure to repair or ask for help and grow that risks you getting fired.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  It needs to be paired with behavioral change. Otherwise, it's just words.

• 45:28Simon Sinek?

  Otherwise, it's just words, even if they're really, really, really true and honest in the moment.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:33Simon Sinek?

  Like, I do believe that some people feel tremendous guilt and truly do say sorry in that moment.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 45:39Simon Sinek?

  But then forget, and let go, and don't make the changes necessary to be made.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:45Simon Sinek?

  I've seen it happen, and sadly, I think we've all done it too.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  We've all done it.

• 45:48Simon Sinek?

  I've definitely apologized and like, okay, well, that's done.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  And.

• 45:50Simon Sinek?

  And see.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Great job.

• 45:54Simon Sinek?

  I have a real life scenario where I, and I know the reasons. It's somewhat related to ADHD, but I take accountability. And that's a hard one, where I genuinely struggle with remembering things that are important to people. And I let people down, and I feel bad when it happens, and I genuinely want to repair it. And I heartfelt say, I do, and it happens again and again and again. And I cannot say, it's not me, it's the ADHD, because it's still me. And this became so difficult, and I started to lose credibility because I wasn't doing the work as they saw it. Especially when it's easy for them and hard for me.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:30Simon Sinek?

  And that's the hard one. Why can't you just? I'm like, I wish I could just.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:33Simon Sinek?

  But I can't just, right? The huge thing that was a huge gift to me, I stopped putting the entire burden of the repair on my own shoulders because I was failing over and over and over again, hurting relationships and hurting myself, that I started to ask for help. And I used to, and then I just said, I know this is easy for you, and I need you to understand this is hard for me. And I genuinely want to do it right, and I fail every time. I need your help. I need you to be patient with me. I need you to point it out before it happens. And if you see that I'm slipping, give me a little grace and understand that I'm trying, and, and like, be my partner in this repair.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Don't be testing me.

• 47:10Simon Sinek?

  Because I, don't be testing me. Because I'm gonna let you down over and over again, and I'm gonna let myself down over and over. Because I need to learn from you and with you. Can you help me build a structure? What would that structure look like? If you see a hint, can you tell me before it gets to the point, as opposed to waiting to see if I'm going to succeed or fail this time?

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:26Simon Sinek?

  You know, and I think that is extremely true at work. If they struggle with deadlines, like, instead of just waiting for them to succeed or fail again and prove us right or wrong, like, we sit down with them and work out a system.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:37Simon Sinek?

  To help them. And I've seen it happen, that when that happens, that person will outperform just out of the gratitude that someone took time to help them with the thing that they're struggling with.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  The other thing that I really love with repair is, this is just a little thing that I like to do, is when I'm sorry, and you know, I apologize, I recognize it, and the impact, da, da, da, da. We figure out what is the path forward. Something that I like to do on top of making sure that I'm doing the behavioral change that is needed in the moment, is find a small way to make it up to someone.

• 48:04Simon Sinek?

  I find cupcakes work very well.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yes, cupcakes, or a little note.

• 48:07Simon Sinek?

  Oh, that's good. You know what that does? It reinforces the heartfeltness of the apology.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:12Simon Sinek?

  I think that's very, very nice. I think that's good. Even a little note going, I just wanted to say sorry, I think you're great.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:17Simon Sinek?

  And I'll tell you the biology of that. Well, it's not really the biology, the anthropology of that, which is, money is a redeemable commodity. We spend money, we make money, whatever, we waste money, we make more money, right? But time and effort are non-redeemable commodities. We all have a fixed amount of time, and you can't get effort back. And so when someone gives you time or effort, it feels richer than someone giving you money.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  I love that. I've never thought about it in those terms.

• 48:41Simon Sinek?

  And, and so for example, like, you're moving house, and one friend says, you know what? I want to help you, I'm going to pay for the moving van, here's $5,000. And you're like, amazing, thank you. And another friend says, you know what? I'm going to come over, I'm going to help you pack all the boxes, I'm going to ride in the van with you, I'm going to get to your new house, I'm going to help you unload and unpack all the boxes. Amazing. Both friends call you the same day and go, I need a favor. You help the one who helped you with the time and effort, not the one who gave you money. Even though you're super grateful for the money, at the end of the day, time and energy, time and effort are just more valuable. And people always say that, you know, when you have a meeting, it's like, hey, thank you for your time. Boy, thank you for your time for this meeting. No, thank you for your time. I know you're busy. Like, it really means something. And so going out of your way slightly, taking a few minutes to write a note,

• 49:25Simon Sinek?

  that is often worth more than large sort of displays or hefty words even sometimes.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a difference, it's the showing versus telling. Like, I can tell you I'm sorry, and that matters a lot, clearly to me. And to your point about how we can ask people how they want to be apologized to, we can also ask them what repair would look like. What would feel good to you going forward?

• 49:45Simon Sinek?

  What do I need to do to prevent this happening again?

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do I need to do? What do we need to do?

• 49:49Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  And I think, so I teach a lot of workshops, and I decided to teach one on apologizing.

• 49:53Simon Sinek?

  Did anybody show up late and apologize?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  That, that does happen.

• 49:57Simon Sinek?

  I'm really sorry I'm late for the workshop on apologizing.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  When I do people pleasing, that one happens. And procrastination, procrastination, no one signed up for it. And I was like, huh, this is weird. And then day of, 20 people signed up.

• 50:07Simon Sinek?

  Really?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  I'm like, okay, true to form.

• 50:10Simon Sinek?

  That's really funny.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yes. And when I taught how to apologize, normally my workshops are pretty much always sold out, and very few people signed up for how to apologize. And I was a little bit surprised. And we get there, we had a smaller group, which is nice. We had a photographer that day. And so he was like, not really in the workshop, he was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. And then around halfway through, I like, I say something like, oh, does anyone have anything they want to say? And he raises his hand, and he's like, I had no idea. I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize. But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just, I didn't know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is going to change my whole marriage. And he just like, goes on and on and on and on. And so I think it's one of these things that almost no one thinks that they need to work on. Because we genuinely believe that, like, we are right, and other people are wrong, and they should be apologizing.

• 50:55Simon Sinek?

  And I think we all think we know how to do it.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:58Simon Sinek?

  Because we've done it. Even if we did it effectively. This was a, an episode about, broadly about accountability, where we talked about blame, we talked about how to take and give credit, and we talked a lot about apologizing.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  And what not to do.

• 51:12Simon Sinek?

  And, and what not to do, and how an apology is cathartic, obviously for the receiver, but deeply cathartic for the giver. It relieves tension when it is real and authentic, and it is an opportunity for greater teamwork. It is an opportunity for greater cooperation. And how simple, right? Though complex, how simple that learning how to apologize and take accountability in the right way is a gateway for trust, engagement, and vastly better performance inside an organization. It's amazing to me how this little idea, I mean, when we first said, it's like, can we do a whole episode on apologizing? Like, we can figure that in 10 minutes, we're done. And like, we've talked for over an hour about this. I think an apology is the highest form of accountability.

• 51:56Simon Sinek?

  I mean, there's a bit of a bait and switch, we have to acknowledge, which is, we called this episode accountability because people will click on that. But if you say, how to apologize, nobody's going to click on it. So for those who are listening, sorry, not sorry.

• 52:15Simon Sinek?

  A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. Lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simoncennig.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself, take care of each other.