From a Single Instagram Handle to a Media Empire (Angelica Nwandu)

Angelica Nwandu shouldn’t be here...not according to the statistics. After surviving the unimaginable loss of her mother at age six and growing up in foster care, she rebuilt her world from scratch. Today, she stands as the powerhouse founder behind The Shade Room, one of the most influential media platforms in culture. In this rare intimate conversation, Angelica opens up to Emma about: -Surviving childhood trauma and how adaptability became her superpower -Growing up across wildly different homes—from Inglewood to Bel Air—and how that shaped her ambition -The accidental birth of The Shade Room—and how she built a media empire out of nothing -What it really takes to scale, evolve, and lead a company with cultural influence -Why ownership matters, and the crucial shift she’s making from frugality to growth -The emotional toll of running a platform at the center of culture—and why she’s ready for her next chapter Angelica also addresses the controversy and scrutiny The Shade Room has faced over the years — including critics who say the platform can sometimes tear down the same community it seeks to uplift. She speaks candidly about how she balances impact, responsibility, and evolution as the brand grows. Angelica’s story is proof that you can start over, build again, and create something bigger than yourself—even when no one sees your potential yet. If you’re a woman navigating career pivots, big dreams, second chances, or the pressure to “figure it out,” this conversation will stay with you. What part of Angelica’s journey inspired you the most — her resilience, her reinvention, or her vision for the future of media? Drop a comment below.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  Before Shade Room founder Angelica Nuwondo built one of the most influential media platforms of our generation, before millions of followers, she was a girl who survived the unimaginable. Growing up in foster care, taught Angelica how to adapt to people, to places, to uncertainty. Those instincts became her superpower. Armed with nothing but a laptop and mounting bills, Angelica launched the Shade Room and changed how culture consumes news. Today, the Shade Room doesn't just report news, it shapes it. This is the story behind the woman who turned instinct into influence, and influence into impact.

• 0:51Emma Grede?

  Angelica, I'm so excited to have you here.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  I'm happy to be here.

• 0:55Emma Grede?

  I'm so happy to know that. I think it's so interesting because you have done something that so few people have. You've actually built an incredible media business at a time when, you know, legacy media businesses are really fledgling. And so I wanted to ask you, what you think in this moment in our culture allows Shade Room to be so successful while others are literally shutting the doors?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Wow. I would say, I remember one time having a meeting with Summer from BuzzFeed, right? I don't know if she's still there, but she was high up there when I, in like 2015. And it was during the time where they were taking a lot of investment money. And I remember she told me, she's like, "Don't take investment money." Right? And I was like, "What?" You know what I mean? Like, she was one of those voices in my ear. I think it's because we've been able to be nimble. Like, we've been able to be very lean. I have 40 employees. And so when you're thinking about media companies that have 3,000 employees in one department, journalism, you know what I mean?

• 1:58Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I think, I think because we're so nimble, we're able to adapt to the, to the market. Because the market's crazy right now.

• 2:05Emma Grede?

  The market is crazy. But it feels like so many of those traditional and legacy media businesses are losing influence, while you guys at the Shade Room are only gaining influence all the time. Why do you think that is?

• 2:16Speaker 01

  I think one of the reasons is the community that we've built. We get our news from the people. I think people think that we curate and direct the news, but really it comes from the roommates. It's the tips. We get thousands of tips daily, so we only-

• 2:29Emma Grede?

  No you don't.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30Emma Grede?

  Who sifts through the tips?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Uh, my staff and they hate me for it, but they, we get thousands of tips daily and it's them telling us, this is what we want to see today, right? And they don't care where else they see it at. They want to discuss it on The Shade Room.

• 2:44Emma Grede?

  So it's like a community guided in a way? It's like, okay, everything's pointing in this direction, you go with that direction.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  We do. We just, we, all we do is moderate, right? And then we verify the news, but then also we take it down. If they don't like it, if they don't like something that we're posting, like they told us, we don't like when you post bankruptcies. We were like, okay, we'll, we'll, we'll stop. Like, we listen to them so that they can literally curate the platform. And I think that's different, but also it was a social media thing. Like, when The Shade Room came about in 2014, it was when people stopped going to www for news. Like, if I actually, when's the last time you got news from www? It's been a long time.

• 3:20Emma Grede?

  It's been a long time.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so we came at that perfect moment when people were moving away from the dot com and we were in your feed on social media present and kind of like feel that disrupted celebrity news, right? And so that's how.

• 3:34Emma Grede?

  You know, you're so right about that because I think there was a time when you would wake up and you'd have like your favorites on the favorite bar or you would literally put something in. And that's completely shifted with the way that we scroll for our news and how we get alerts for our news now. So you really built off of what was already happening in the culture, essentially.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  In the culture, yeah, they were leaving. And then also, I don't know if you remember, but back in the day with celebrity news sites, it used to be you check it in the morning. Unless it was breaking news, it was just, you get your 10 stories in the morning.

• 4:03Emma Grede?

  And then you're out.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  We came in and we were doing it every hour on the hour, 24/7 in the beginning, you know what I mean? And so it literally shifted the news cycle and now it's like constant updates. And so that, that was another thing as well, so.

• 4:15Emma Grede?

  Do you ever see yourself competing with more traditional media?

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I would say TMZ is a competitor for sure. I love Harvey. But I would say TMZ is a competitor because they're a competitor for breaking news and- In the black culture, still, you know what I mean? So, um, yeah, I would definitely.

• 4:33Emma Grede?

  I love that you feel like someone who's really tapped in to your world, right? You mentioned Summer, then you mentioned Harvey. Like, do you, do you know everyone in your world? Have you made it your business to like make those people your friends?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  And? Uh, I don't know my friends. I, I, I would love to, but I definitely know everybody. I definitely, I definitely study every, I study the industry, you know, to see where, where we are, where we're going. Like, right now, I know that media is on another, it needs another disruption, like really bad. And, um, and everybody's trying to figure out what that is, you know what I mean? So like, we're all in a crazy place right now where we have to figure out what's the next iteration of what we do.

• 5:14Emma Grede?

  And tell me, like, why is that? Why are you looking for what's next?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Well, because, um, where social media is going. Social media, also, I think it's with the emergence of streamers. Now people are getting their news from streamers, you know what I mean? Like, you, you can, you'll, you can go to Twitch or, you know, any platform and you'll see streamers actually breaking news in real time, like, you know, and you can't compete with that, right? It was the same thing when we were doing it on social media and they couldn't compete on the website. So we see this shift, but also I think that people, it's the, people are starting to disseminate news themselves.

• 5:50Emma Grede?

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  They'll get it quicker than you, you know what I mean? And so it's like, okay, now what is the shift? Because we can't continue on doing what we're doing. It's just not gonna work. So something has to, has to happen.

• 6:01Emma Grede?

  I think it's really interesting, just like straight out the gate, understanding how kind of obsessed with your space you are. And then the fact that you're actively looking for like what's next and what's around the corner. And that tells me like, I'm speaking to a real deal founder. Like, I'm talking to someone who knows what they're doing, who's thinking about what they're doing. But I want to kind of go back a little bit because you were actually a screenwriter. You were born in, in LA, right?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:26Emma Grede?

  And I just want to understand a little bit about where you came from, your family. Like, give me, give me the background so we can really understand who you are.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my parents migrated over here in like late eighties, right? And my parents-

• 6:41Emma Grede?

  From Nigeria, correct?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  From Nigeria and my parents, my mother was more like a breadwinner. And my father had a harder time like establishing himself here. And so in the culture, Nigerian culture, the man is supposed to be the breadwinner, the provo- you know, the provider and the leader of the house.

• 6:56Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  My mom was like loud and proud, you know what I mean? And uh, and that caused a lot of issues in their relationship. So it led to my father taking my mother's life when I was six years old.

• 7:08Emma Grede?

  I am so sorry.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Me and my sisters were in the home, yeah. And that moment shifted our lives because we went into foster care. And it was in foster care, because I know that I could have so many bad things to say about foster care. But then at the same time, I look back and I see all the good things that I learned. I had to live in so many different environments and homes. I lived in Inglewood, you know what I mean? I lived, I lived in Bel Air.

• 7:31Emma Grede?

  Oh shit.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  It was this-

• 7:33Emma Grede?

  You did the Gambit, like the full Gambit?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was this rich white woman. She, she, she, it was during the time that Angelina Jolie was adopting those kids.

• 7:41Emma Grede?

  Yeah, where's my girl?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  And she, it was in style. But I thank her because it was her that kind of changed what I thought was possible, right? Because she, she took us in and we were living in Bel Air, like princesses of Bel Air, you know what I mean? But I remember it was at that time that I was like, wow, you could have this? This is possible? And that shifted my mind. And from that point forward, I remember I said, I'm gonna have a house like this, you know what I mean? And so I worked and worked and, and then it became possible. But if, I don't think if I, if I never met her, I wouldn't have seen another kind of life, you know what I mean?

• 8:14Emma Grede?

  It's pretty incredible the way you talk about what is true childhood trauma, like really true childhood trauma. Um, with what happened with your mother and I'm so incredibly sorry. Um, you've got, how many, you're one of five girls, is that right?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  I'm one of- Five.

• 8:31Emma Grede?

  There's five of you total.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Five, well, five, I'm one of five girls, but I have one half-sister.

• 8:35Emma Grede?

  Got it, okay.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  I just found about a couple of years ago, you know, but.

• 8:39Emma Grede?

  Your dad's still giving you surprises?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Listen.

• 8:43Emma Grede?

  Unbelievable, unbelievable. And I, I guess I want to ask you, I mean, I think it's really interesting how much you speak about what in the, in the, in the limited news that's out there about you, by the way, and the limited stories that are about, out there about you. You speak a lot about adaptability and I'm guessing that came from this extremely traumatic childhood that you had.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was just talking to my therapist the other day and she was like, you have learned to adapt because it literally was a survival mechanism, right? Because I, I had to be palatable for each home to stay there. Literally, if I was too disruptive or whatever, I would have to leave. And so for me, yes, I've learned to adapt to different personalities, different, different cultures, different, you know, everything. And so I think that helped me in what I do now because I've always been an observer. And so I would have to observe in the homes that I was in and so that I could adapt.

• 9:40Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  And so I think that's what helped me to become, you know, to start this business because I was observing. I would observe, you know, celebrities and just have like, you know, I was very interested in stories and people's, you know, stories. And so that's why I stumbled here. I didn't think I would ever be here, but you know.

• 9:58Emma Grede?

  And here you are.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:00Emma Grede?

  Amazing. I mean, it's honestly a full credit to you. And, and so you got a full scholarship to college, that's right?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:06Emma Grede?

  And you studied for, and, and eventually became a screenwriter, I'm guessing?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and when I went to college, I was in accounting, which, oh my goodness, like, why did I do that? I did that.

• 10:16Emma Grede?

  Because you're a Nigerian, good Nigerian girl, that's why.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, yes, yes.

• 10:19Emma Grede?

  It was like doctor, lawyer or accountant, please thank you.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  But it was terrible. And I remember my English professor saying, you need to be a writer. And so I graduated with a two point eight GPA. I barely graduated college. Um, and I went into accounting. I was like, I can't do this.

• 10:36Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  And so I started a fashion line, but I'm not the fashion girl. You know what I mean? I'm not. I wear all black.

• 10:41Emma Grede?

  But you were trying, you were like, I'm trying to do something, I'm gonna try things.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yes, but I'm a cartoon, I wear the same black every, every time. And so I, you know, so that failed in six months, right? It was called Juju's Closet, named after my sister, very embarrassing. And then it was after that, that I wrote a script with Jordana Spiro. She was writing a script about a girl whose life was similar to mine, the character's name was Angel. And we submitted it to Sundance and went there, and after that, you couldn't tell me anything. I was like, I, I was like, I'm gonna be big, I'm gonna be.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  I was like, you know what I mean? And so after that, I was like, everything I wanna do, I can do. And that is, and a couple of months later, I started The Shade Room and, and that's, you know.

• 11:21Emma Grede?

  Give me, give me this, started The Shade Room. What did you do? Like, tell me, did you have a vision in the beginning? Cause I heard it was a friend that gave you an idea. I wanna really understand the genesis of you going, I'm gonna start posting about some stuff on Instagram to, I know I've got a business here and I can feel that there's something that's gonna come out of it.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  So, I'm just gonna be completely honest, right? Because I had went to Sundance, I thought I was gonna be big, right? And that was gonna be the next, you know, I don't know, Casey Limins or whatever, right? Shonda Rhimes, but that's not what happened. Um, it was a independent film and they gave me a five thousand dollar grant. And so five thousand dollars in L A does not go far.

• 12:04Emma Grede?

  No.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  So I was, you know, broke and I had to quit my job. Well, they, they gave me an ultimatum and I had to leave because I, again.

• 12:10Emma Grede?

  Where were you working at that time?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  I was working as a bookkeeper at Motorcycle Performance Services for thirteen dollars an hour. So I was like, you know, in dire need of, of income. I was at home all day and I just was doing nothing but trying to figure out, what am I gonna do next? You know? And I would call my friend who was in law school at the time. And I would be like, did you hear about what happened with, you know? Cause I was so into media, I was on all the, I was always keeping up with media. And she got so tired of me telling her that, she was like, why don't you just start your own site? She was like, this is what you do all day, just start your own site. And I was like, you're right. And I remember that night, I came up with The Shade Room. And don't ask me how I came up with that name because I don't, it was, it was a joke. All of this was like, like it was a joke, it wasn't, it wasn't supposed to be serious, right?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  So I, I was like, oh, The Shade Room, I'll call it The Shade Room. And then I just started an Instagram because I didn't know how to create a website, nor did I have the money to do so, right? And so. It was the third day that I knew that this was a business. And it was because.

• 13:08Emma Grede?

  That quickly?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Yes, that's when I saw the vision. And so I opened Instagram and I created a little logo on some app. You know what I mean? I called it The Shade Room. And I opened Instagram and I started reporting on what was happening in the celebrity world. Hour after hour.

• 13:27Emma Grede?

  Do you remember your first story? Do you remember the first thing you put out?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  It might have been Real Housewives of Atlanta. Some type of sub thing, you know, having to do with that. And then, you know, and so I was posting it and I was doing like funny, like quirky captions. Cause I have like a funny quirky like personality, like my humor is kind of different. And I was doing that and the first day, I think it was like 300 followers, right? And I was like, what? This is kind of odd. By the third day, it was 3,500. And mind you, I'm obsessed now because I'm thinking I'm building something. So literally.

• 13:58Emma Grede?

  You're watching, you're watching every bit of engagement, every follower, every like.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. But at this point, it was a different kind of news I was doing.

• 14:06Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  I was just reporting on what was already out there. But then as I started to build this army of people, right? They were like, what is this? It's new. But by the third day was 3,500. It was the people that made me know this was a business. Cause they would tell me, well, we're going to, they were, they would start to do things on behalf of the platform. So they would say, we want Chris Brown to step into the Shade Room, right? And so they would literally bombard his comment section and, and, and get his attention. Or you know what I mean? Like what?

• 14:38Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  And I was like, you guys are acting like an army. And so I was like, this is, this reminds me of like Reed Navy and like Barb's. I was like, I'm going to give you guys a name. I'm like, I'm gonna call you guys the roommates. And it was then that they, it just spiraled out of control.

• 14:51Emma Grede?

  They're like, yeah, we are the roommates. We're ready to go.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yes, because once you give them an identity to like, they become a community. It's one thing to have a brand, but it's when your audience becomes a community, that's, that's a different thing.

• 15:03Emma Grede?

  I mean, that's pretty incredible. By the end of the week, you had 10,000 followers or so the story goes.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Because Tammy Roman, she's a reality star. She was like, have you guys seen this new thing? Like what's going on? Cause it was different at the time. And then everybody started following from there. It was just crazy. It was a wrap.

• 15:18Emma Grede?

  But you never particularly wanted to be in media, right?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Honestly, if you would have asked me, I would have never wanted to be in media. I had no dream of ever being in media. That wasn't something, I wanted to be a screenwriter. Yeah.

• 15:31Emma Grede?

  And you still felt like that at that time, or were you like, no, I've got something else?

• 15:35Speaker 01

  No, I said I have something else and I'm good at this, so I'm gonna keep going, I'm gonna push it to the limit. But it was never something, it was never my passion, as far as like, that wasn't where I wanted to go.

• 15:46Emma Grede?

  So when you think about people that are thinking about starting something and are like, you know, don't really have their path, haven't really got it figured out, what would you say? What advice do you give to people, being someone who was kinda lost, thought they were on one track? It wasn't actually gonna pan out, and so you just kind of found yourself in this position. What do you tell people?

• 16:05Speaker 01

  I would say you need to be free to try things like a child. Because that's, I was moving like a child at that time. You know, and it's so interesting because once you start to build something, you get further along and the child like mentality starts to go away. I don't know, do you feel the same way?

• 16:23Emma Grede?

  It's so interesting. I, it's, it's, it's different for me actually, because I feel like I'm one of these people that tries to gather so much information, like, I like to take risks, but I also do it like having looked at everything. Yeah, it's like, I gather a lot of information and then I feel like I can go for something. So it's like I have to do everything with a plan. We were discussing this the other day, because my husband's like the total opposite. He's just like a go person. I'm gonna go where the feeling goes. Me, I need to gather and look and research and figure it out, and then I'm like, I have enough information, I can go. But I love the idea that you say to people like, look at it like a baby, because I do think that there's no perfect time to ever do anything, and sometimes we can procrastinate

• 17:07Emma Grede?

  and overthink our ideas and then do nothing. And I think a lot of people stay in that space of like, I have an idea, but they do nothing.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  I think that there's, there's, there's something to your method, right? Because it works, right? And you do need to be prepared for it, but I think you need to have somebody with, you probably have somebody with you that's like, go, go, go. You say your husband, right? Exactly. There, there has to be that balance, right? And I think for me back then, I was just trying things. I was like, okay, accounting, okay, maybe not. Okay, you know, it's a screenwriting, okay, that works. Then a fashion boutique, you know, I was just, I was trying things.

• 17:42Emma Grede?

  You were trying, because you were throwing things at a wall to see if it sticks. Did you ever imagine that one day you would have a platform whose influence would rival the New York Times?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  No. I didn't and and that's what I mean. It was just, it was like Dora the Explorer and I was exploring. And then I stumbled upon something.

• 17:59Emma Grede?

  Love Dora.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because you know what? Sometimes we don't know what we're good at.

• 18:03Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Sometimes, you know, because I talk to people all the time and they were like, I want to do this. And I'm like, but I see this in you. And sometimes if you ask anybody around me, they're like, of course you're doing this. This is, this is, you've been this like person. You've been the town crier. It's like, you know what I mean?

• 18:17Emma Grede?

  Forever.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Of course, right? But I didn't see that in myself. And so sometimes we need to like try things and stumble upon what we really are. Because sometimes we can't see it.

• 18:28Emma Grede?

  You can't see it. It's so true. You really can't see it. So talk to me about like the forming of the business. I want to understand. You're at the end of the first week. You've got 10,000 followers. What do you do? And what do the next couple of years look like?

• 18:39Speaker 01

  We got up to like 500,000 followers, right?

• 18:42Emma Grede?

  Quickly?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the first six months, right? And then at that time, New York Times picked it up. And I met an investor. His name was Bryce Roberts from O A T V. And he's like, you have a weekend to accept a hundred thousand dollars. And like, it was a small investment, but he's like, you have a weekend to accept this money and join our program. It was like an investment program where they were taking founders who may not have support and give them knowledge and access to other founders, like the founder of Craigslist or the founder of Indeed and Square, you know what I mean? And so at that time, I didn't have a business. I didn't even have an LLC. I just was building this page.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  I remember I was facing eviction at one point and I was like, I need to make this make money. And so I looked at the influencers on social media and they were charging businesses to, you know, post ads for them. So I said, well, I'm like an influencer, but I don't have a face. You know what I mean? But we have like, you know, followers. So I remember I just made up a number, seventy five dollars per ad. And it was terrible.

• 19:43Emma Grede?

  A 500,000 followers?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  I know. Yeah, it was terrible. But listen, I was able to pay my rent that day and that's what I needed. And then I was like, okay, maybe I need to hire somebody. So the first person I wanted to hire was a moneymaker because, you know, I needed money.

• 19:56Emma Grede?

  Get me my salesperson. Who is here to do ad sales?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I hired somebody who used to work for Sony. They came over to me and they were.

• 20:05Emma Grede?

  Sorry, did you take the hundred thousand dollars from the guy?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  I didn't. I didn't even look at the contract, which I would not recommend.

• 20:10Emma Grede?

  Did you have to give some equity for that money?

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I did.

• 20:13Emma Grede?

  Okay.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I gave seven percent equity for that money, but it was the best thing I ever did.

• 20:18Emma Grede?

  I was gonna say, it's not a terrible deal considering where you were in the business. Five hundred thousand followers without a clear path or a strategy forward.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Right, a hundred thousand to me wasn't, I never even spent that money. I gave it back to him. Like, I never even paid him. Okay, so we'll get there, but like, it was, the hundred thousand wasn't, it just made me confident. That's what I wanted. I wanted confidence and I wanted education. So that's what I gave the equity for. And so I learned a lot, you know, from him. And he was the one that told me, don't take investment money, right? Which is, the way that I'm going is a very weird way for media, but we could talk about that, you know.

• 20:56Emma Grede?

  I can't wait. I have so many questions around that base.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he used to don't take investment money. He's like, build a business first.

• 21:02Emma Grede?

  But this person gave you connections, gave you access, gave you an understanding of the wider media landscape, where you were sitting and was that kind of conduit between you and the rest of the world?

• 21:16Speaker 01

  He basically taught me how to build a business. So he's like, business is profit. If you don't have a profit model, then you don't have a business, you know?

• 21:25Emma Grede?

  It's great that you had someone to tell you that.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, I know.

• 21:28Emma Grede?

  A lot of people don't. Let me tell you, a lot of people are like, you know what? You create a business and it's a vanity project and it's here for your ego and you can hire lots of people. I mean, you can grow, grow, grow. But no, the point of a business is to make a profit.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he wasn't like completely against taking investment money, which is ironic because I had taken investment money. But he was like, I don't want you to take millions before you have a business, before you have a profit model, you know? And so he's like, find out how to make profit in a way that's sustainable and that you can grow. And then, when necessary, take money, right? So I took that to heart and I, you know, I started building, I started hiring people that could make the business money. So first it was sales, right? And then once, you know, I got burnt out because I did, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't keep doing it. Then I hired people like journalists to be able to continue to, you know, post on the site so that we could make more money from like the website and we built. Backwards, we started with Instagram and I realized,

• 22:23Speaker 01

  okay, while this was smart to get to disrupt the industry and get our name out there, we have to have a O and O, right? We have to have somewhere to live and I learned that because Instagram deleted us. Okay, which was the best thing they ever did.

• 22:35Emma Grede?

  Which actually was one of the things I was gonna have to ask you because I thought you deleted your page. Because in the beginning, I remember, because I was around a lot of Shade Room obsessed people and they'd be like, she deleted again. And I was like, I think that, like, I don't understand what happened. So you actually taken off of Instagram. It wasn't you.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  No, we were the Instagram, I think this was around the 500, the New York, right after the New York Times and I'm like, no.

• 22:58Emma Grede?

  Right after we just got the best validation ever.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. I remember I was coming off a plane and all of a sudden I look and everybody was like, Shade Room's deleted. But it was the best thing they ever did for me. And the reason why was because we had to start over from one follower and start over again. But everybody loves things that get blacklisted.

• 23:17Emma Grede?

  Oh, yes.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  So CNN picked it up. But everybody, people who never knew what the Shade Room was were hearing, what's this thing that Instagram, you know, banned from Instagram and that made us grow even faster? We grew, we, it took us, the first six months, it took us 500, six months to get 500. This time, I think it was probably like a month or two or, you know what I mean? Like, it was, it was growing exponentially because everybody was reporting on it.

• 23:42Emma Grede?

  But not only that, but I guess what you were able to do is actually build a moat around your business. Because while building on Instagram, you weren't in control of your business because it was just a page on Instagram. Building the site was then gonna allow you to create an actual business and a company. And then it could have, you know, various different channels in different places.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 24:03Emma Grede?

  It, it, it let you go, almost go back to the beginning and rethink the way of bringing this to your customers. No, bringing this to your readers.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had to become a cross-platform brand.

• 24:11Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  And so now we're on every single platform that exists. We even just started a Twitch because we're like, we have to figure out how to show up on Twitch. Like, we're just everywhere, right? And yeah, because you can't rely on one platform.

• 24:22Emma Grede?

  No, you cannot. So tell me how you started to think about, you know, thankfully you had this great guy that came on board and, and helped you think through the business. But how were you thinking about revenue, profitability, staffing? And, and also I really wanna understand what your vision for the company started to be as like the more that you grew.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  What do you wanna say?

• 24:44Emma Grede?

  Do you all a bit? Did you, well, let's start with the vision piece, because I feel like that's so important. Some people have like a very, very clear vision from the outset. Others, it comes to them as they go through. Did you, once you started to get a bit of traction, did you think to yourself, I can start to disrupt traditional media and I'm gonna be the next X? Or were you like, I'm in a lane of my own, I'm gonna do my own thing and see what happens?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  I wanted to be in a lane of my own, because I couldn't compare it to much. Even though we had competitors, ideally, because people, you know, go certain places to get news. I just knew that it was different in the, in the way that we were building it, right? It was, it was something that hadn't existed before in that way. And so, but I did see, I did have a vision. I had a vision for the impact of the Shade Room. I knew that, once I started to see that it was impacting the news cycle and that people were, instead of just doing your first ten articles in the morning, they would do it, you know, throughout the day. I was like, oh, this, this has influence. So I did see us as a leader in this, in this industry. Or some, uh, I, I saw it as a site that people were looking at to say, what are they doing?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And that's what a lot of people would say, well, can we meet? Can we have coffee? What, what are you doing? You know, and I remember going to a big, they own a huge site, and they invited me to Calabasas. And then I sat with them and he's like, this is the dumbest business idea I've ever seen. You know, as I'm sitting, you know, mind you, I'm coming, I'm driving from Hawthorne because I'm broke at this time still. Uh, but I'm going to Calabasas and like, this is the dumbest, uh, business idea. He's like, you're, you're building a platform on Instagram. Like, they can easily just take you down again. They took you down the first time, you know? And so, yeah, the idea was profitability. At first, we started with small business. Because nobody, no big advertiser wanted to advertise on the platform.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  They're like, what's this Instagram blog? So they didn't take it seriously at first. So we did start with small businesses, like your, I don't know, Slim Fit Tea. You know, like, we started like with that. And, um, that worked. And then, you know, we started that, that way and then Fashion Nova came. So we did, we, we made a profit how we could in the beginning, right? And so, we did build a, you know, good sized, small business, you know, with that money. And then I said, okay, now it's time to. Elevate into bigger business deals, right? And that was very hard because we had to break open that ceiling when a lot of brands didn't feel like we were brand safe. You know, they were like, oh, you know, you guys put a Z on the end of that word? I don't know. You know what I mean?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Like, they just didn't understand it. And then we were trying to take them from traditional media because they were still there. Advertisers were still advertising on traditional media.

• 27:26Emma Grede?

  Have you seen that full migration happen? Are you getting like much like better advertisers at this point?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. We work with, I mean, we work with McDonald's. We've worked with, I mean, General Motors, everybody.

• 27:39Emma Grede?

  Like real blue chip brands?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we, we, all of the studios for movies come to the Shade Room. If there's a black character in it, they're like, oh, go to the Shade Room. You know, even, we just even had a deal for Weapons or like, we do branded content with, I mean, we work with so many big brands now. But it took a long time. Like, I had to hire people that I, I would take people from other BET or like TV One and I would bring them to, you know, the Shade Room and say, you have to evangelize us in these spaces. We had to go to Cannes and like really introduce ourselves. We had to create, you know, marketing pitches and, you know, sizzles and everything like that to really communicate the impact of the Shade Room, you know? Because that wasn't felt at first. And so it took a while.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 28:31Speaker 02

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• 28:34Speaker 03

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• 28:41Speaker 02

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• 28:52Speaker 03

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• 28:58Speaker 02

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• 29:03Speaker 03

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• 29:04Speaker 02

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• 29:13Speaker 03

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• 29:16Speaker 04

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• 29:19Speaker 05

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• 29:23Speaker 06

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• 29:28Speaker 04

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• 29:35Speaker 07

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• 29:40Speaker 04

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• 29:51Emma Grede?

  And what does the business look like today? Is the Shaver unprofitable?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yes, we've been profitable ever since like 2015 and continue to be profitable.

• 30:00Emma Grede?

  And even with all the growth that you're experiencing?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yes, because we stay lean.

• 30:05Emma Grede?

  Because you stayed lean.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  We stay lean and I think that's very important. Okay, double edged sword, right? I'll just keep it be honest. I think I'm frugal and that's because, you know, I've just been frugal my whole life. So I do, I am lean, but I do think I'm at a place now where it's time to spend. It's time to really spend and invest bigger. And I think that the lean, it gets you far, but then at some point you have to really, really invest in those, the next level.

• 30:35Emma Grede?

  I love that you say that because I think there's such a huge misconception that having investment in your business means that you lose all control. And I think you are a really good example of somebody who had a small investor come in. That investor was useful beyond their cash, which I think is the rule of, golden rule of taking investment. If it's just about the money, it's never worth it. If an investor comes, they need to bring more than just the money, a set of expertise, a set of experience, connections that you don't have that can, you know, properly be advantageous to the business. So I think that that's really sensible. But taking investment doesn't mean that you lose control. And I wonder, so you only have one investor at this point? It's just that original one or have you taken money, sir, out there?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Well, so I had him and then... We were on a plan. It was basically, it was like a convertible note and we were, I was supposed to pay him like a percentage of profit over time. I never paid him until one day in 2018. I hit him up and I'm like, look, I have half a mil-, I mean, yeah, I said, I have half a million for you. Take this and I want my equity back. And he's like, really? I'm like, yeah, just take the check. I want my equity back. It was 5X, you know, that I had to pay back. And he said, yes, but he took it from 7% to 0.7%, right? He's like, just give me 0.7, you know what I mean, for all this? And I'm like, wait, cool. So, um, but...

• 31:54Emma Grede?

  That was written into your terms earlier on that you could do that? Or that was something that you just decided?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  We were friends. And I said-

• 32:01Emma Grede?

  That's some friends.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I need to take it back. And he was like, he just respected that.

• 32:06Emma Grede?

  Because was that out of you needing full control? What were the reasons behind that?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  It wasn't about control. It was about ownership in a different way. It was the culture. It was at a time where we had a music artist who had made a diss song, right? And he was like, this, this person owns, you know what I mean? Like, it was just, it was just like, really, it was becoming an issue.

• 32:30Emma Grede?

  Are you taking your business cues from your, from your scroll? What is happening here?

• 32:35Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 32:36Emma Grede?

  You were like a story I wrote got to me.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Because I think that, I think, I think when, because we service black, the black community primarily, that they're really big on ownership.

• 32:48Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  They're really big on ownership. And I think that I wanted to build in a way where I could maintain that, not for, not that I lost control, because I didn't.

• 33:00Emma Grede?

  You didn't.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  But to know that it was possible.

• 33:04Emma Grede?

  And so right now, do you have other backers and partners?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:08Emma Grede?

  No.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  But-

• 33:09Emma Grede?

  But you're thinking about it.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Okay, now I'm like, let me think about this. You know what I mean? But that, I mean, for the last 12 years, that was something that I was gung ho about. But now I'm like, hey, let me, let me, I, just to be honest, I'm in a place where I'm like, let me think about this.

• 33:23Emma Grede?

  Well, I think that you have to, because at a certain point, right, you're playing in a different league now. And in order to be competitive, you need the right cash, you need the right amount of money in your business to be able to play with the big boys. And I understand, because at the end of the day, I think, listen, there's, there's no one who's more about ownership than I am. But there's a difference between ownership and majority ownership. What you want is majority ownership. You want to have full control and the decision-making power over what you're doing. And I think that what we need to do is get really smart about what it means to be able to take a little bit of money off the table. Nobody wants to be rich when they're 75, right? It's like you're doing a lot of work. So if you being able to take some money into the business allows you to take some money off the table

• 34:03Emma Grede?

  and you to take the capital in order to grow and to be competitive in the big leagues, then why wouldn't you? And I think there's just, we have to shift that misconception.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Right, 1000%.

• 34:15Emma Grede?

  Because it's unhelpful. And actually, it's not allowing a business like yours that serves the culture to be competitive and hit the big leagues.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is what I want to ask you. Because I mean, you know, you, we should be switching chairs right now. Because I have a lot of questions.

• 34:29Emma Grede?

  You can ask me any questions that you like.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  So my philosophy.

• 34:31Emma Grede?

  I'm here for you.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  My philosophy for 12 years was like, could you build through partnerships without equity, you know, investment? Do you believe in that?

• 34:40Emma Grede?

  Like through brand partnerships, you mean, or?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Like partnerships, like, okay, I partnered with, I don't know, because right now we're working to partner with the big, one of the biggest touring companies to do, to do a festival. Like through partnerships like that.

• 34:53Emma Grede?

  I think it heavily depends on your ambition. I look at you and I know nothing about your business plan. And if I were you, I'd be sitting here thinking, I am the next BET, I am the next Essence, I'm gonna have a TV channel, I'm gonna have, you know, a book imprint, I'm gonna have a podcast network, I'm gonna open film studios, I'm gonna be like Tyler Perry, like Oprah Winfrey.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 35:14Emma Grede?

  I'm like, ah, ah, ah.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  You're saying everything I want to do.

• 35:16Emma Grede?

  But this is it.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:17Emma Grede?

  In order to do that, you would need to raise money. Like, the, the point is, you look at everyone who's done what you want to do, and each and every single one of them has raised at some point.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 35:28Emma Grede?

  So why would you be the outlier? And also, like, what is bad about that? Like, what happens if you, like, let's just contextualize this for a second. Jeff Bezos owns about six percent of Amazon. He's still the richest motherfucker in the world. Like, who's worrying? Who's worrying where the other ninety-four percent went? Like, I ju- do you know what I mean? So it's like, we gotta get out of our own way sometimes. It's like, to get somewhere, you've got to give something. And it's really, really simple. Again, like, we can't be obsessed with control, because a hundred percent, and nothing's still nothing.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:59Emma Grede?

  Right? So it's like, it, it, the ambition, it's ambition dependent.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:03Emma Grede?

  If you have a business where you're like, you know what, I've got forty people, I live in the valley, I am extremely happy what I've built, where I'm going, and the natural trajectory of that, based on the revenue that this business, you know, brings in, is the life that I wanna lead. Perfect, fine, amazing.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Emma Grede?

  But if your ambition is beyond that,

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 36:22Emma Grede?

  then you have to do something different. Now, do you need to go and raise fifty million dollars and dilute yourself to, like, a crazy place? Not necessarily, but if you wanted to raise five million dollars or ten million dollars, and keep the majority ownership and the control of your business, absolutely, you should do it.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  I agree with you. Now, I have, there's just one caveat, right?

• 36:42Emma Grede?

  Come.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  So, I do think that that is the smartest thing. And I, and I think so many people, everybody tells me this every day, that you're, you need to just, like, why, why are you doing this? Raise money, right? However, I've seen a lot of media companies, let me ask you though, in this, in this, uh,

• 36:58Emma Grede?

  Climate.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  climate, a lot of media companies have raised money, but they really don't know what the future of media is. And so, a lot of them have gone bankrupt, or, you know what I mean? Because it's like, they raised money to go in a direction that they're, that, that,

• 37:12Emma Grede?

  Where there's so much uncertainty, yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yes, it's like, I would, I wanna raise money, but I wanna know what's next.

• 37:19Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  You know?

• 37:20Emma Grede?

  Well, then you've raised with the future in mind, right? Because traditionally, you might have been going to a more like-minded media company to raise the money, someone who's done what it is you wanna do. Whereas, like, what's to say that you wouldn't go and raise money in Silicon Valley and be part of a brand-new AI-type platform that is The future, like, do you know what I mean? So to me, it's about, again, like, not all cash is created equal. And you are trying to get an influx of cash and you're trying to see into the future and understand what's happening. Or what the next steps are in your business. So I would go to those people. And figure out if they see something in you and in what you've created that can bolt onto what they're doing. And together you go like in the direction that you need to go. Do you know what I mean?

• 38:03Emma Grede?

  I just think there's a lot of ways to, there's a lot of ways to think about investment. And I, I honestly believe that we get ourselves into such a really kind of like downward spiral. When we think that what has happened to everybody else is going to happen to us. It's so much more about the vision. It's so much more about the, the allocation of capital. Like, what are you planning to do with that money? Like, what are, what are your plans? Do you have great plans? And when you put all of those things together and you raise from the right person, what's to say that your journey would be like any of the others that you've seen?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:41Emma Grede?

  You create your own trajectory, like you came this far.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  That's true. That is true. So this is like, you guys are watching, like, this is what needs to happen, for sure.

• 38:49Emma Grede?

  I mean, I like, I know so little about your business, which is why we're going to get back on your business and talk about it more. But I, I definitely don't want to continue the narrative that is so prevalent in, in the culture. That giving up anything means giving up everything. It's just not true.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  No, no, I agree with you. I agree with you.

• 39:10Emma Grede?

  It's just not true. And I'm kind of like living proof of it.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's for sure. I agree.

• 39:15Emma Grede?

  For sure. I'm trying to remember where we were in your business trajectory. So at this point, you're kind of rethinking things in the business. And you're going to have a lot of optionality because, you know, you guys are, you're out there. What you do is seen by everyone. It's pretty amazing. I saw that there was a little bit of a step change in the way you approached what you cover on the platform. That happened like maybe a couple of years ago and certainly in the last election cycle. For the most part, I think if you're someone who doesn't know the platform very well, you think gossip. You think celebrity and you think like stuff that maybe someone else wouldn't cover. So I want to ask you about editorial integrity.

• 39:57Emma Grede?

  I want to ask you about like where, you know, where you draw the line and how you think about the business and what you do. Like, is there such a thing for you guys as a place where? This is too low, like this low is too low.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I learned that over time. You don't understand, like, when I started, I was twenty-three. So I was very, I was fresh out of college, so I think I was very immature in the way that I saw influence. And so in the beginning, you know, it was kind of wild, but I had a lawsuit, you know what I mean? I got, I got tapped on the hand a little bit, and then after that, I was like, you know what?

• 40:30Emma Grede?

  Were you dying when that happened?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  No, because I was always prepared for, I'm, I'm, I'm a very, like, risk averse type of person, you know what I mean? So I was, I was making sure that I had protected the business in a way that if something would happen like that, that I would be able to recover, right? So we were able to very easily recover. But at the same time, you know, it was during the time that, uh, Hulk Hogan was suing, what's that platform, Gawker? I think, yeah, and so it was the worst time. Yeah, it was, it was the worst time to be sued in that way, right? And I was like, okay, no, especially in Cali, right? And so after that, I learned, I just was learning lessons. And then also, the influence was growing, and I was like, yeah, these are real people. Like, they're not avatars, like, they're real people, real life.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  And then I was starting to meet the people, you know, and hearing about the impact. And so we definitely started to change, but also I was getting older. And so I was like, gossip is cool, but it's not, there was other interests that I had, like, I was interested in politics and all different kinds of things. So in twenty twenty, it was, I think it was during the George Floyd, the audience was like, we want you to report on George Floyd and shut down all of the celebrity news. And I think one of the best things that we've done as a brand is we listen to the audience. And so we shut it down, and I'm like, but wait, my, my staff is not trained to, you know, report on social justice or politics or anything.

• 41:58Emma Grede?

  These are showbiz writers.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  These are showbiz writers, right? But I had to then, I had to hire investigative reporters and all of that. And then the election came and it was big, and so we had to report on that. And it really opened the door. I'll never forget when Barack Obama stepped into the Shade Room, right? And he was like, I think people started to see, hey, this is a platform that will influence, but also it's a very important audience that follows. Like, eighty-eight percent of black adults on Instagram follow the Shade Room. It's very, yeah.

• 42:29Emma Grede?

  Is that true? Eighty-eight percent?

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Eighty-eight percent of black adults on Instagram follow the Shade Room. It's so potent in the community, so. I think that that's when political candidates started to say, well, hey, if we want to reach that audience, we go straight here, you know? And so we went to the White House and we actually have an interview that's in the White House archive right now, you know what I mean?

• 42:49Emma Grede?

  That's insane.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  We broke open those doors.

• 42:52Emma Grede?

  And you have journalists that actually sit in the press room at the White House, right?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yes, we have.

• 42:56Emma Grede?

  Which I think would be surprising to a lot of people.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yes, our journalist, I hired a journalist from ABC News, a news anchor, to come work for the Shade Room, Justin Carter, he's amazing. And so I think that we, that gave us so much legitimacy. It also helped us build our company, right? Because when advertisers started to see that, they're like, oh, no, this isn't the small brand, you know, Instagram blog that we thought it was. People are really taking this seriously. And so it was that diversification of news that was able to take us to a new stratosphere, I would say.

• 43:28Emma Grede?

  So now that the Shade Room has a seat in the White House press room, what do you think the mission becomes? And how are you shaping culture and politics?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  So that's an interesting question. I think if you would have asked me that question in 2020, I would have said the mission was to, we wanted to kind of influence our audience to vote a certain way.

• 43:49Emma Grede?

  You mean like reinforced democratic politics?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Democratic politics. And the reason why was because I thought my audience were Democrats. I've always been of the belief that I want to reflect, I want it to be a mirror to culture. That's all I wanted to be. I never had any intentions of like influencing culture in one way or the other. I just wanted to be a mirror for them. And so I think when you don't, when you just move off of intuition and you don't actually dig into data and analytics, you start to develop ideas that are not actually true, right? And so I thought in 2020, all my audience is, they're Democrats. So, you know, we should push the Democrat agenda, that's it. And then over time, we did analytics and we realized that a lot of the audience Unbeknownst to them even, have very conservative viewpoints. Like, it was, it was very like half and half.

• 44:36Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And so then I said, okay, now my goal is to step back and just provide information. Because I don't want to lean one way or the other, right? But the problem with not leaning one way or the other is that both sides hate you.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Both sides hate you now, um, because I don't feel like you're their ally on one side or the other. But really, we just developed a stance of like, I just want to provide as much information, truthful information to you, so that you can come up with your own opinion. And I think that that is necessary in media, right?

• 45:10Emma Grede?

  Yeah, it's absolutely, I mean, listen, I'm English. I grew up with the BBC where it's agendaless, right? They tell you what happened and there's no entertainment factor. There is no opinion. It, it just, it is what it is. It's utterly and totally and completely unbiased, or that's the way it's intended to be. So I think that, but I wonder for you, where, like, where you have these red lines? Where have you created in the culture of your company? Like, we do do this, we don't do this. This is too low, this is okay. Like, how have you established those kind of goalposts?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I think the goalposts were established through experience that we had to create what we call the Ten Commandments for the Shade Room. And so we do have a Ten Commandment rule of things that we won't touch. And obviously, we don't want-

• 45:56Emma Grede?

  Oh, what won't you touch?

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Uh, we used to, okay, there's a lot of girls that want to out players, you know what I mean? Or, or like celebrities, out their sexuality, right?

• 46:06Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  And so-

• 46:08Emma Grede?

  That's a hard line for you guys.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yes, because we saw like, you know, people will really want to self-harm.

• 46:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah, unintended consequences.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, unintended consequences. We used to report on like bankruptcies and things of that nature. And after some time, like, the audience was like, we really don't, like, this is, this is too intrusive.

• 46:26Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  You know, people's finances, if they're, you know. So there's certain things that we don't do, um, we don't report, like, there's a level of privacy that we, you know, now, if you're out on a boat, on a yacht in Lake Como, you know what I mean? With your new boo, we're gonna post that, right? But there's a level of intrusiveness that we won't go anymore.

• 46:43Emma Grede?

  Have you ever, is there a story or something that you've done that you're not proud of?

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, there's a couple of stories that I wasn't proud of. I think that media is so hard because- It's a balance. I think once you're on the other side of media, you don't humanize the people on the other side. You get what I'm saying? They, because it's a business, right? And so I have to constantly balance that and say, these are humans that I'm reporting on. And it's not that they just signed up for celebrity because that, I mean, there is a responsibility as a celebrity. You sign up for, for fame, but they're still human and they still have rights. You know what I mean? And they still have feelings and all of that. And so, like for instance, I'll give you an example, reporting on death.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  One thing I noticed is that like in the media, people are so eager to be the first to report on death. Because when you report on death, that is a big story and, you know, all eyes, right? But this is somebody's family member, right? And so that was something that I'm like, you know, we had to change with the audience. I mean, with, with my staff, I'm like, we don't have to be the first to report on death. Like, let's make sure that the family, let's talk to the family. Let's make sure that they know first, you know what I mean? This is not about breaking news.

• 47:59Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  But that is something that is prevalent in media. It's like, everybody wants to be the first and they'll do it before the family knows.

• 48:06Emma Grede?

  Never even thought about that before, but yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:08Emma Grede?

  Of course, everybody rushes to have the, to be the first.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, because of, because you'll have the exclusive and everybody will source you. And then your site, you know what I mean? Like, I think, I mean, come on, when you think of TMZ and like Michael Jackson's death or Kobe's death, these are big stories for them, right?

• 48:22Emma Grede?

  Huge.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so as, as, I would say, as a founder of a media company, you do have to kind of check yourself a little bit. Like, what, what is the impact of what I'm actually doing? And is it worth it? You know?

• 48:34Emma Grede?

  And you decided that there's just certain hard lines that are not worth it?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yes, but that also is a business decision at the same time. Because now, you know what I mean? Like, if you're not, you're, you know.

• 48:47Emma Grede?

  If you're not there, you're not there.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  You're not there. Yeah, you're not first. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:50Emma Grede?

  So you make a decision. Do you ever get into like the comments and moderate what's happening in the comments and filter what's happening?

• 48:58Speaker 01

  We've tried to do that, but I think, I think on our O N O, it's moderated. But when it comes to social media, like, come on. Like, social media is just like a, a, a, I mean, they say all kinds of things. You can go in anybody's comment, they could be doing a recipe and it'd be the most positive page. And people are like, oh, you didn't, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter what it is. I think you can't regulate social media. Like, it's just too, I mean, we get. Millions of comments a month. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's no way that we will be able to regulate it. But we try. We put in the word filters and everything like that. We've tried to even make our content more positive. Like, you know, we have like a half and half. You know what I mean? Like, if it's, if it's getting, if it's too much, like, you know, happening in the media, we'll be like, OK, throw some positivity in there, some funny posts,

• 49:42Speaker 01

  because we, we understand that. Really, it's about the energy of what people feel when they leave your site. Yes. If they go there, even if it's all the salacious tea, if they feel really down, you know what I mean? When they leave, then they're not going to return. They're not wanting to come back. Because over time, I'm like, this makes me feel really bad. Totally. So we try to make you laugh. And we try to bring, you know, all kinds of things in the mix so that it's not this just cesspool, right? Totally. But that's over time that we've, you know, started to see that.

• 50:15Speaker 02

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• 52:17Emma Grede?

  So talk to me about the evolution of the platform and really what you're trying to build and how you see it growing from where we are today.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Listen, it was everything that you said you were really speaking in my mind. Like, I definitely feel like I want to merge. I came from film, so like, that's what I really have a passion in. And so I'm like, you know what? We are the site that everybody goes to for the new trailers. Like, you know, Jordan Peele releases something, they come to us or whatever. Weapons was on our... Every big movie, right? Color Purple, everything, you know, that's happening. So I'm like, we, our audience loves to watch trailers and see what the next new show is from our site. We need to then get into content and programming, right? So that's definitely something. You talked about the Tyler Perry thing. Well, yeah, like, we want to do our own thing. We've helped build, like, other platforms that started from the ground up. And we've seen, like, Azus, you know what I mean?

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Where we were promoting it in the beginning, you know, and all these platforms. Now it's Now That's TV, where they started from the ground up and became... Zeus is such a big company now, right? Competitor with networks, right?

• 53:21Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  And so I'm like, well, we can be able to start our own, right? So that's definitely something. Right now, we have some partners. It's not officially out yet, but it will be soon. Some really big partners. We're partnering with one of the biggest touring companies so that we could do our own conference, you know? Like, we want to get into our own, like you said, Essence Fest, Complex Con. We need to have... Another vertical, you know what I mean?

• 53:46Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  That is off of digital.

• 53:47Emma Grede?

  Well, especially when you've got such a community that love what you do and wanna be together and they should be able to come together and connect. It feels to me like a total no brainer. But how do you gravitate from what it was that you were known for, right? Being very gossipy and being this like salacious place to doing something that feels inherently positive? Because if you're gonna go into a live touring type of concept, how do you take where you are today and bring that to life in a way that feels good to people?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think about it. I think it's about not losing the essence, right? So I'm not trying to be Essence Fest.

• 54:27Emma Grede?

  No.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  I'll never be Essence Fest, right? What does our version of a conference look like? And it is gonna be a little cheeky. It is gonna, you know what I mean? Like, it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be the same. You know, we have, it's gonna be the celebrities that we report on and like, you know, like, think of like, uh, what was it, BravoCon, how they did, like, yes, like, it has to, it's gonna be cheeky. It's gonna be the shade room.

• 54:47Emma Grede?

  We need to be like Jerry Springer. We don't need to throw chairs.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  No, no, we're not throwing, we're not throwing chairs or anything like that.

• 54:52Emma Grede?

  I get it. It's like, it's cheeky, it's a little salacious, a little tongue in cheek. You're gonna get some revelations. Like, I can see that.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  But it's, the idea that the shade room is so negative, honestly, we're, we're really one of the nicest. I know, I know, honestly, we're really one of the nicest platforms out there.

• 55:06Emma Grede?

  Well, I've read that you said, like, I've literally read every article of you. And, you know, and then I went on and I kind of like, you know, scrolled through and I was like, no, she's still there. She's still in salacious land.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, like, what do you, like, what do you think? Like, what was the story?

• 55:22Emma Grede?

  There's a move on, you know, there's a move on from where it was for sure.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:27Emma Grede?

  Four, five years ago. But the, the, you know, it's like, I look at the meat of the thing, right?

• 55:31Speaker 01

  I know, but is it like?

• 55:32Emma Grede?

  I'm always gonna, you know, like, sell a lot of underwear and I'm always gonna sell a lot of denim. And then there's all these other adjacencies and things that you do. But it's like, that is that, and that is that, and this is this. And there's a part to me where I'm like, how do, like, how do you get away from?

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think we should. I don't think, I don't think we should. I think that, you know, for a while I've tried to, but then I was like, wait, why? Like, obviously. Obviously, we need to balance it and be responsible with our influence, but people like to know the tea. Like, they, they do.

• 56:00Emma Grede?

  Everyone, everyone likes to know the tea. But I guess my question for you goes down to, like, how do you handle the criticism that says the Shade Room is actually tearing down the very community that it's there to serve? Because it's real criticism, right?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  It is, it is real criticism, and I think that it's, it's criticism that I've take very seriously, right? And I think about that a lot, and then, but also, I think it's not. So we, we did a focus group, right? And we polled our audience, and we were like, okay, um, you know, tell us. And a lot of them were saying, yeah, we, you know, some were saying, yeah, we think you tear down the community. But then they were saying, but don't change, right? So it was like a little, they're like, we want the tea, we want this, right? And we-

• 56:45Emma Grede?

  No, gossip is part of your DNA, like, the tea is part of the DNA.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  But I think that we have, we've done so much behind the scenes, right? To give back to the community, like, we have six scholarship endowments. You know, for African-American students, I mean, we, we've, we have, we're building transitional housing programs and, like, water wells in Nigeria, you know what I mean? Like, we've done so much with the money. 10% of our money goes back to the community, but that's not enough, right? I don't know, are we tearing down the community? I mean, is TMZ tearing down the community? Is Page Six tearing down the community? You think so?

• 57:16Emma Grede?

  No, I think that this is a very, I'm nodding along to you going, this is a part of the media, right? And I think that it's been there for as long as anything. And you could look at, you know, legacy titles like Us Weekly or Star or like any of these things. Gossip, Tea, Shade, whatever you want to call it, has been part of what we have all, me included, loved to read forever and ever. I think that social media takes it into an entirely new realm because it can be so pointed towards a person with an app, da, da, da, da, da. And then the comments and the way people have ingested that, like, you can ignore a newsstand. It's hard, when we're all living and breathing in social, to ignore some of that stuff. And for me, it's been super positive, especially in the last election cycle,

• 58:00Emma Grede?

  to see how you are navigating this shift. And I think it's been very purposeful and I think it's really noticeable. It's a reason that I'm so fascinated and interested in the growth of your platform and what you have the opportunity to build. And I think it's important that the step change comes, right? Because I think there are a lot of people, to your point, eighty eight percent of black adults on Instagram are following your platform. Well, with that comes a hell of a lot of responsibility. And I think that that that it's all in the balance, right? It's all in this beautiful power that you have and how you choose to use that is ultimately it's your decision.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  So the change has to come, right?

• 58:37Emma Grede?

  The change has to come.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  So the shift has to come and I think that a part of that is by doing something else. You know what I'm saying? I think that we can't just keep doing establishing new verticals, right? You get what I'm saying? I think that like, okay, what does content look like for us? What is a conference call and look like for us? It has to feel like the shade room, but it has to be different. You know what I mean? And I think that diversifying the brand in that way is the best way to do it because I don't know any other way to do it.

• 59:06Emma Grede?

  I don't know any other way to do it. Is there a part of you that can feel trapped by the algorithm? Like you've got to stay in that land and in that model to be in the mix of what you're doing.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  I feel trapped. I feel like what's that box that, you know, the clown thing that, you know, come out? I really want to come out of the box. Like it's so, I'm I'm bursting at the seams. I want to come out of the box. I want to build a bigger business that is more diverse. I just feel like the shade room can be so much bigger than what it is. You know what I mean? And I don't want to be in this. And honestly, you know what I think? I think celebrity news is getting old to people.

• 59:39Emma Grede?

  Do you see yourself as redefining what serious journalism really looks like in your platform?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  I can't say I'm redefining it in the sense that not what serious journalism look like. I think I'm redefining what the next iteration of journalism looks like, which I think journalism is now becoming something that's more in the people's hands. Versus people are no longer like trusting big, traditional media companies anymore because of because of the opinions, because when you go to Fox, you know, you're you're getting an agenda. Because when you go to CNN, you know, you're getting an agenda. So people no longer trust legacy media and traditional journalism anymore. They wanted more, they wanted to be more privatized in a sense, you get what I'm saying? And so that's, I would say in that way, yes, you know, but um, I think it's shifting.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  I think people are tired of. The same old and they want something new. They want independent media. They want citizen journalism almost like, yeah.

• 1:00:38Emma Grede?

  I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And people are like.

• 1:00:42Emma Grede?

  I can't go on that. That just, I mean, it's just too much for me. You can't.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  No, it is too much, but, but people are enthralled by like.

• 1:00:49Emma Grede?

  Yes, they are.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Getting their news from, they get their news from TikTokers that, you know, started, just opened a page and started like they, they want something different.

• 1:00:58Emma Grede?

  They really want something different.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Emma Grede?

  So talk to me a little bit about you because I'm so fascinated at the lack of news and stories that's out there about you. Has that been purposeful in your own doing?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  I'm an introvert. I'm just an introvert. That's it. I was just like, you know, I also, I want to build businesses from behind the scenes.

• 1:01:19Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Not that I don't want to be out there, but I just, I want to be known. I want my business to be known. That's what it is.

• 1:01:25Emma Grede?

  I think it's really admirable because I just think for somebody like you who's clearly very talented when it comes to social and building a brand on social, that you haven't chosen to put yourself more front and center. It's very, it's just interesting at this, in this day and age and this.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  But everybody tells me I should because they're like, that's smart. You can like build a brand alongside the brand. I do think that people who do that are very smart. I just don't know. It doesn't interest me. I like, I like being behind the scenes. You know, like I do. I just, I do. I like going to the supermarket with a bonnet. You know what I mean? Or sweats.

• 1:02:00Emma Grede?

  I think for.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:02:02Emma Grede?

  Yeah, hundreds and years and decades and however long people have gone and created incredible businesses and we didn't know their name. And there's absolutely no reason that you can't do that now. In fact, I think it's, it's probably the smartest thing to do. There's no reason that you need to be front and center. Especially when you have a business like yours where it might not befit you to do that, right? You want to be able to do what you're doing and, and be behind the scenes. I just think it's an interesting choice. Is it a choice that you're happy you made?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Every day. Yeah, I'm very happy. Nobody knows who I am. I'd literally go anywhere. Like, the, the other day, I was, just yesterday, I was at a restaurant and got a, you know, like, and nobody knows who I am and it feels so good. Yeah, I love it. Yeah.

• 1:02:43Emma Grede?

  I really love that you love it. Talk to me about, um, I wanted to understand like the internal dialogue. So when something happens at the Shade Room and like if the backlash ever feels personal, is there ever a time where you're like, oh, like Angelica versus the Shade Room, is there ever a time when that gets confused?

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  It has felt personal, but you know, I've always felt like a hypocrite, right? Because I would get so angry, like, what, what? Like, they'll, they, they come up with lies about me too. You know, about, about my intentions or, you know, something like that. And, um, and I'm like, I can't believe that, you know? And but then I think about it and I'm like, this is what I do, right? I have to accept everything that comes with it. And I have to accept that people have opinions. I built a platform for people to have opinions. So if they have opinions, you know what I mean? I, I, I just have to tell myself, like, you can't be hypocritical in that way. You built a platform for people to have opinions, no matter how brutally honest they are. And you, you stand by that. So allow those opinions for yourself. So, I mean,

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  there have been times where celebrities have gotten mad and I've been posted on, you know, bigger platforms than mine. You know what I mean? Um, and it's been crazy, but I have to, I just take it in stride. But it's not easy. Like, I have those nights where I'm like crying to sleep.

• 1:04:03Emma Grede?

  You do?

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Cause you, cause I wonder, like, I always question the impact of what I've built. You know what I mean? And, and now I'm like, well, I've built something really big and amazing. And, and it has opened a lot of doors for not only just companies that come behind, um, the Shade Room, but all in the same vein, right? But also like breaking into the White House or even just the, people don't understand that, like, there's been artists who have been discovered on the Shade Room.

• 1:04:30Emma Grede?

  Yes, no doubt.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like to take the culture and bring it to a mainstream level where you don't have to wait to be on People or, you know, I mean, all these things, like you can be on this site fairly easy, right? You know what I mean? And get the same type of exposure, if not more, right? So that has done a lot, but I have to balance that and I do, I want to say it's like the only source of sadness.

• 1:04:55Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  It's the main source of sadness. If I have sadness, it comes from that, you know what I mean?

• 1:05:01Emma Grede?

  Oh, wow, that's deep.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Emma Grede?

  So, talk to me a little bit about leadership style, because you do have this huge, you know, influence. Uh, you've got forty staff. What do you like as a leader? Who is Angelica the leader?

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  I'm a kooky leader, actually. I actually think everybody's crazy that has a business, I'm being honest with you. Like, you have to be somewhat crazy, right? But, um, I'm very kooky. I'm the type that'll be like, I had a dream. I had a dream that we should do this, and let's do it. And everybody's like, okay, let's follow her dream. She had a dream. I'm very like that, right? Um, and, but I'm also-

• 1:05:35Emma Grede?

  Because, because you're an intuitive?

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  I'm an intuitive, but that's a problem. I mean, the, I would say the intuition got me this far. But at this point, like, I need to get into the data and the analytics, and so that's what I've done.

• 1:05:46Emma Grede?

  Well, you need to couple both.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Emma Grede?

  Right? Because I think that, again, as, as a woman, I really believe that it's such an amazing superpower that more women are attuned to, that we have, you know, gut instinct, intuition, like, whatever you want to call it, right? I think that you need to use your gut and your intuition. Because at the end of the day, your gut feeling, your gut intuition is a collective and a collection of everything that you've learned along the way, right? It's stored memories that are coming back and allowing you to make great decisions. And when you can couple that with the data and the analytics and the experience and other great people around you, like, that's when the magic happens. So, I don't want you to get rid of that at all. I feel like you just have to put the two things together. You still need to come in with your dreams.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:33Emma Grede?

  Go get someone to go check it quickly out.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Exactly, right, right.

• 1:06:36Emma Grede?

  It's my dream dreaming correctly.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  No, no, yeah, no, my dreams, my dreams actually have got me so far in life. It was as far as like decisions I've made and everything. However, now coupling the data with the intuition has shown me sometimes my intuition is wrong. In the sense that I may think something that is not true, right? For instance, we went into politics. But now, we're seeing with the data, oh, they actually probably want you to scale back on politics. You get what I'm saying? Like, that- These things, I'm like, okay, this is, um, data sometimes. Overall, you can have intuition, but sometimes data will teach you new things about an audience that you never knew. And that, you know what I mean, is teaching me things about them. Like, I didn't know that they like fitness. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't, I wouldn't know that you're, or I don't know that they're really car enthusiasts.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Like, what? I wouldn't have thought that, right? So these are things that come from me pairing the two. It's like, I'm learning things that I didn't know.

• 1:07:30Emma Grede?

  And who's helping you with leadership and decision making at the, the sort of highest level of the shade room?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  So I've built like a executive C-suite, you know what I mean? That's helping me. I have advisors that help me.

• 1:07:43Emma Grede?

  What's it, what does your C-suite look like?

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  I just hired a VP of Development. I have a head of revenue. I have a head of content. I have HR, you know, Director of Human Resources. Um, I have Directors of Sales, you know, and things like that, but I, and I'm hiring a CBO, by the way. I hired a CBO.

• 1:08:03Emma Grede?

  I love. And who, who gave you, who advised you on how to structure the company? Or did you just put that together? That's what you'd seen? That's what you knew?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Advisors. I will go to like my advisors and say like, what, what do you think I need? But then also like the Director of HR would say that. And then I would hire some people, like I, I had recently hired a COO. They came in and they were like, I think you need a CBO. You know what I mean? It's that, right? So it's kind of like, you know.

• 1:08:29Emma Grede?

  It's a collection of, yeah, of the expertise that you bring in.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Of the expertise that I bring in.

• 1:08:33Emma Grede?

  But that makes, that makes so much sense to me. And then from an advisor point of view, because I feel like it's something that founders always struggle with. Who do you listen to? Who is around you that you've decided to make part of your council? That when you've got a big decision to make, you go and speak to?

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  It's a lot of actually people who are in the same industry.

• 1:08:52Emma Grede?

  The competitors?

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yes, actually, some competitors. Yeah, some competitors. Yeah, because they don't see me as a competitor. They see me as. A potential partner. You know what I mean? Like, we should partner, you know? But like, I know Rich Dennis from Essence. I know DeTavio from Revolt TV. You know what I mean? Like, we have conversations and we want to partner with each other in many ways. Yeah, I'll talk to the people who've done it and have done it differently, who've done what I want to do or who did, who made mistakes that I don't want to make. You know what I mean? Or whatever. I'll talk to all different kinds of people. But then I also talk to people from Silicon Valley like Bryce and, you know, investors who will tell me, "Hey, this is what I think you should do." So it's really like a group of people that are in all, in all kinds of industries that I advise.

• 1:09:42Speaker 03

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• 1:10:26Speaker 03

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• 1:11:17Emma Grede?

  I want to ask you about money, I guess. Like, how do you think about the money? And has your relationship changed with money since you started the business?

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:11:25Emma Grede?

  I'm trying to understand, like, because you started this from nothing, right? On your own.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:30Emma Grede?

  And you've only taken a tiny amount of money into the business. So as you become a profitable company and you grow and you have 40 staff, you start to make a little bit of money. What's your relationship to money like?

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  It's still frugal, which is the problem. So my relationship with money is, I think, because I did study accounting and I was a little bit in accounting, that I'm very like, I'm good with money in the sense that I know how to take money and make it grow. Right? And so it's, so we've been able to bootstrap this whole time and our books are clean. You know what I mean? We, we, we never had a red quarter. You know what I mean? So I'll make sure of that, right?

• 1:12:06Emma Grede?

  You really were an accountant.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We never, so.

• 1:12:09Emma Grede?

  You were ticked in time. But how useful was that as like the background?

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  It was useful.

• 1:12:13Emma Grede?

  For you starting the business?

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  It was, it was, it was very useful, actually, because it was how we were able to survive. We survived through COVID. You know what I mean? We survived through this, this, this media exodus. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean?

• 1:12:26Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  It was very helpful, but at the same time, I think there needs to be a change. It, everything can't be so, you know, like, I need to know.

• 1:12:35Emma Grede?

  What do you mean? You're like bean counting? You're like, what do you like?

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  I'm just making sure that, like, before I make an investment, it has to be calculated down to the T. Because I need to almost know that I'm going to make my money back. That has to change in the sense that I need to go bring back that childish girl from back then who was just trying things. You know what I mean?

• 1:12:53Emma Grede?

  A little bit of considered risk-taking.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  There, yeah, I always think you do need to make a calculated risk, but there's no kind of investment that's for sure.

• 1:13:01Emma Grede?

  Where do you, where do you think that comes from?

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  I don't want to go back to the hood where I came from.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  I think that's where it comes from, which is a bad mindset to have. But I think that happens to a lot of people that come from nothing is that you don't want to go back to nothing at any point, right? And so because of that, you're like, I'm going to be very responsible with, you know, the money and all of that. But I think that you have to gamble. I I just think you have to gamble.

• 1:13:28Emma Grede?

  You do. I wonder, do you see the Shade Room as like a wealth building tool for yourself? Or do you think about it much more in the sense of like redistributing power back to like or or a platform to redistribute the power back in media?

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  I see it as a platform to redistribute the power back in media because I think I've made enough to where if I really wanted to go to Thailand and disappear, I can, right? But I think that now I want to build something bigger for the culture. You get what I'm saying? I want to build something bigger. I'm like, I have the opportunity to do something really big and different, and I want to do that. And I think, again, the reason why I was so frugal was because I was using my own money.

• 1:14:05Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Emma Grede?

  True. And and you you have every right to be frugal. What, how are you measuring success at this point? Is it is it followers? Is it influence? Is it revenue? What does that look like?

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  I don't think it's followers anymore. I think now it's going to be expansion. Like, OK, have, were you able to expand into other verticals? Were you able to establish roots outside of digital media? You know what I mean? Like, were you able to build TSR Studios, right? And then also revenue, yes, that's always going to be, because revenue is always going to be an indicator of success. But then also impact. Now, that's big for me. What's the impact of it? Because you got to be able to sleep, even though I know some people that are like, I sleep very well. You know what I mean? In that Cruella de Vil outfit, I care, right? Um, I care. It affects me. I'm very like, you know, I feel it, you know? So I definitely want to be able to sleep peacefully at night.

• 1:15:00Emma Grede?

  Damn right.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  And so I want to make sure that I have an impact that's worthy of. Reverence is what I'm trying to say, you know?

• 1:15:09Emma Grede?

  That's a great word, reverence. I love that. I mean, obviously you started as a disruptor, but is there a part of you that would like to be one of the legacy media brands?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  No. I don't wanna be, I don't wanna be a legacy media brand. And there's nothing against them, I love them. But I want something different, I wanna be a disruptor, that's why. I wanna disrupt the, disrupt media again, and I wanna do something completely different. I mean, well, when you say legacy media, I wanna be the new legacy media.

• 1:15:35Emma Grede?

  There you go.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Emma Grede?

  Yeah, yeah. When I say, I mean, I do wanna be like the new blue chip, like in the way that we think, you know, truthful or not for a long time, you know, I'm gonna talk about the BBC, cause it feels like it takes out of America then, right? It's like, you know, that was, that is and was an institution that we relied on, you would watch the news at ten, you would watch your programming, and there was some element of like, you were like, if it comes out of this place, then there is a level of integrity to it, there's a level of truthfulness to it, and even when it's just pure entertainment, there's just levels to this shit, you know? And I wonder, like, do you wanna be like a blue chip brand name that's like up there in life?

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Yes, one thousand percent. I wanna, I want the Shade Room to be, you know how when you hear, when you hear CNN, you never think about when it'll never be?

• 1:16:25Emma Grede?

  No.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  You just think CNN is gonna be forever, right? That's how I want the Shade Room to be. I want it to be like, oh, the Shade Room is just here to say, like, it's just never going anywhere, right? Like, that's what I want it to be.

• 1:16:36Emma Grede?

  I feel like that is like where you're headed right now.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:16:40Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I do feel like that's where you're headed, because I think that there's, there's a clear step change, and listen, I think with all things, there's, there's so much out there, there's such a lot of noise, and what you build has real cut through. And that's a very, very difficult thing to get. What you have is a very distinct point of view and a very distinct brand. Like it, love it, love it, whatever you think about it, you think about it.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:06Emma Grede?

  And that's all we can ask for right now, right? You wanna be memorable, and you want people to know that you matter. And when you have those things, How you transition, how you start to reposition yourself.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Emma Grede?

  That's up to you and how good a founder you are and how good, how well you take care of that community. Cause they're listening. Now you've got to figure out what they want to hear.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I want to figure out what they want next.

• 1:17:31Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Even before they know it, that's the hard part. You know what I mean? Like, what do they want next? Cause I know they want something. That I feel intuitively. I feel intuitively that they're like, the whole landscape, they're like, we need something, a shift. But what they want, that's what I'm working on. Like, what is it that you want?

• 1:17:49Emma Grede?

  Do you think, or do you want the Shade Room to be remembered as entertainment or as a newsroom?

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  I want the Shade Room to be known as a media conglomerate.

• 1:17:57Emma Grede?

  Do you think that people criticize the Shade Room more harshly because it's black owned?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely, of course. This happens to every black company, right? And I would say, like, when you look at, like, a Tyler Perry and how people criticize him. You could have Adam Sandler, and Adam Sandler can make really funny, crazy comedic movies. And, and nobody cares that he doesn't have an Oscar-winning movie, because he didn't need to. You know what I mean? But when it's Tyler Perry, it's like, oh, he makes these movies, they have the bad wigs and you know, whatever. And the people are like, yeah, shut them down, because there's not enough representation. So when you don't have enough of something, the, the few that make it to that level, you, you have strict parameters on how they should represent you. So I understand it, right? Because there's not enough.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  If there were thirty, if there were fifty black media companies, they wouldn't care what the Shade Room was doing. There could be, that's why when you look at other communities like a Page Six or people. Nobody cares what they're doing because they have people, they also have CNN and, you know, like, they have so many. You, you could go to whatever platform you want to go to, right? But with us, we only have a few. So because of that, there is heavy, there's, there's heavy scrutiny on each one. Because there's only few representations.

• 1:19:13Emma Grede?

  Do you let that impact your decision-making?

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  It does influence me, I won't lie. It has an influence on me. But at the same time, again, like if Tyler Perry let it impact him, he wouldn't be Tyler Perry. I can't become Essence. I can't become Ebony Magazine. I just can't do it, right? But I take it into consideration for sure because, like I said, I have to sleep at night. But I wonder how that looks like for me and for this company. And what is the way in which we'll address that in our own fashion? But then I also have to really admire what we've built and who we are. Like, there is a place for us. There's a place for Sexy Red. But there's also a place for, I don't know, a conscious rapper, you know what I mean? I don't know. Like, you know what I mean? You could have Chica and you could have Sexy Red.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Everybody should not be molded into one representation, right? And I think that's the problem, but I understand where it comes from. It just comes from a scarcity.

• 1:20:12Emma Grede?

  And when you're benchmarking, because you spoke so much about the competition and who you look at and other brands, are you looking at just a black-owned media? Or are you looking at a full spectrum of what's out there? Do you benchmark your company against just those in your immediate space?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  No. I look at a full, yeah, range of companies, for sure. I'll look at BuzzFeed. I'll even look at Page. I'll look at all of them. I'll look at every, you know, I'll even look at different kinds of companies. Like Twitter, to me, is a competitor. And I know that sounds really weird, but I think Twitter is a competitor because it's a news platform. Oh, X, yeah, whatever.

• 1:20:49Emma Grede?

  We'll never call it X.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  That's the worst We brand.

• 1:20:50Emma Grede?

  We'll never call it X and we'll never call it Meta.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  That's the worst We brand I've ever seen. Nobody, We completely just ignored it.

• 1:20:56Emma Grede?

  No, it's still Twitter and Facebook. Shut up.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  But it's a news company. It's a news company, really.

• 1:21:00Emma Grede?

  It's a news company. It's the global town square.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  It is. Everybody should look at that. Every news company should look at Twitter as a competitor.

• 1:21:07Emma Grede?

  You have, yes, you have to. Also, especially when you start to think about breaking news and giving voice to a community.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:21:13Emma Grede?

  Okay, so if you could fast-forward, let's say 20 years from now.

• 1:21:20Emma Grede?

  And be in your dream position. What does it look like?

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I would have a studio that rivals Hollywood Studios. Well, you know what I noticed? Okay, when we talked about like what those next things that the audience wants. I think that um we went, there was this era in black culture where that we had the Cosby's. We have Alicia, we had so, we had so.

• 1:21:43Emma Grede?

  Sister, sister.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Sister, sister.

• 1:21:45Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Oh, we had so much.

• 1:21:47Emma Grede?

  So many, oh my gosh, yes.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  It was like the golden era for black content. And I think that the, when Flavor of Love came, you know what I mean? That, not to say, and I, and I honor that area era too, because it was amazing. But we entered into like a reality TV space that, and we took away those shows. We took away that content and those movies that we used to have. And um, and.

• 1:22:10Emma Grede?

  Oh, what was the last one? I mean, Blackish, maybe? I loved, I loved.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, Blackish, Blackish for sure, yeah.

• 1:22:17Emma Grede?

  Always cute and family-ish and, you know.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Girlfriends, I think that was that, it was that era.

• 1:22:22Emma Grede?

  You know, we didn't have that in England, so I only watched Girlfriends like four or five years ago when I moved to America. And I was like, what was this? And why did I miss out?

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it, but it really had, not having Fresh Prince of Bel Air, like you could see the culture's change with, with uh, reality TV. In the sense that now, reality TV evolved, we had the Love and Hip Hop, now then it evolved to baddies and like.

• 1:22:45Emma Grede?

  Angelica, Angelica, are you telling me that the Shade Room lady wants to pivot into wholesome, American, black programming? Is this what you're saying now? Like, is this what's happening?

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  I'm saying I want to pivot into good television, good black content. You know what I mean? Um, not necessarily go back to like Fresh Prince of Bel Air or anything like that, but really good content. You know what I mean? That is like thought provoking or, you know, just interesting, you know? And I think people are doing it, like when you look at Forever on Netflix, that was.

• 1:23:15Emma Grede?

  Totally, totally.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  You saw the vibe, everybody was loved it. You get what I'm saying? Because it gave us a taste of something that we haven't had in so long. I, I want, I want to make good content, is what I'm trying to say. So that's what I want to do. I also want to have huge festivals. You know what I mean, for for the community that, because I feel like we've lost so many recipes. Like even like in just in community period, like when when's the last family reunion like? Like like family reunions are kind of like dead now, you know what I mean? Like all of the like weddings, you know what I mean? Like all, you know, all of that. And so I'm just saying like, I want a community presence. You know what I mean? That is consistent year after year. I love how Essence has been doing their thing for the longest. You know what I mean? I love seeing AfroTech, you know what I mean? Be this yearly thing.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  And so I definitely want to have that. And then, yeah, I want to be the source of news. I think in so many areas, we are not able to be the actual direct source. Because we just don't have the access. And so I want to be that as well. And so, yeah, in 20 years, I just want to be known for building one of the biggest media companies, one of the biggest studios ever.

• 1:24:24Emma Grede?

  Yeah. So humble girl. I mean, listen, you got us all hooked. I have no doubt you can do it all over again. I'm really excited to meet you. And I think it's really incredible and impressive to hear your story. Because I knew so little about you. And I think you are wholly inspiring. It's really impressive what you've been able to build. And that you've done it basically all on your own with very, very little outside help. And I'm really excited. I will be here cheering for you at the end of a, at the end of a phone. If you want to phone me and ask me something.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  I definitely want, I definitely, we definitely need to exchange.

• 1:25:03Emma Grede?

  I'm here, I'm here for the questions, for all the things.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Because you inspire me. You, you honestly, you inspire me. Like you represent something that like, wow, not many people get, get there. You know what I mean? Like I, I've seen so many, like it, it almost feels limiting in the, in the, you know what I mean? Like in the area of the, like, like you'll see, like, you have reached a stratosphere that not many people get to go. And so me walking through here and seeing this and, and like, wow, women are, you know what I mean? At the forefront of this. And it's beautiful and it's big and it's like. To me, I'm inspired. I'm gonna go home and be like, wow.

• 1:25:43Emma Grede?

  Thank you. It's very, very kind. And that's why this whole platform is really important. It's really important that what you do and what I do and everything in between is shared so that we can learn from each other. And we can put it out there and it's gonna give so many people the ideas and the impetus and the, just the, like, the knowledge, right? That's all you need. Sometimes you just need to know it's possible and you need to hear a little bit about it. So that you can go off and understand that these spaces are there for you too. So, couple of rapid fire questions for you. First one is, what's the first thing that you do in the morning?

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Oh, it's bad.

• 1:26:22Emma Grede?

  Oh, it is? Jump straight on your phone and look at what's happening.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  I do. It's so bad. It's so bad. I need to stop. And then get on the scale because I'm on a weight loss journey. And my, my, I got the, I got the, it's this TikTok scale that is really needs to be banned. Every time you get on it.

• 1:26:38Emma Grede?

  What do you mean you're a TikTok scale?

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  It's from TikTok. You know, I'm all on TikTok. But it, it needs to be banned because it goes, it turns green when you lose weight and purple when you gain weight. So I'm addicted to it. But those are the top two things I do when I wake up in the morning. It's bad.

• 1:26:55Emma Grede?

  Oh, Lord. No, we've got to change that, can we? No, no, no, no. We're gonna change. She manifests and meditates in the morning. That's all we're doing. Okay. I'm so glad you were honest. Don't tell me the same shit. No. What is the last thing you do before you go to sleep?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I pray.

• 1:27:11Emma Grede?

  Okay.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:12Emma Grede?

  That's better. There's a better ending to the day than the start. Do you pray for the weight loss?

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:19Emma Grede?

  She's like, no, a real prayer, a real prayer.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  No, I actually do pray for weight loss sometimes, yeah.

• 1:27:23Emma Grede?

  Fair enough. I think that's very honest.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:26Emma Grede?

  It's true. And what is a book that changed your life?

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  Ooh, Leadership Pain. It's a weird book because it's a pastor who talks about pastors. But he said, according to him, the hardest roles in the United States, right, is a university dean.

• 1:27:45Emma Grede?

  Oh, right.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  A pastor and a CEO of a hospital.

• 1:27:48Emma Grede?

  Wow, yes. I, I can understand.

• 1:27:52Emma Grede?

  He's probably not wrong.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so but he tells talks about leadership pain and like leadership and so from that perspective. And it's really interesting.

• 1:27:59Emma Grede?

  Okay, that's one that we'll check out.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:00Emma Grede?

  Um, who's the one person you'd never post about and why?

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  The one person I never post about?

• 1:28:07Emma Grede?

  You would never post about?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Ooh. I would never?

• 1:28:12Emma Grede?

  Um. Is there anyone off limits?

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean like now? Oh, I don't post Cardi, but that's because she told the, I mean, I'm good with her. Like, we just, we just can't get along. Like, like, our, our, our platforms don't gel, so we just don't post Cardi.

• 1:28:26Emma Grede?

  You just don't post Cardi?

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we had a conversation and I was just like, yeah, we, we just decided like, okay, we won't post you anymore because it's so, it's too hectic. She's loud, you know, like she'll, like she'll go back and like, you know, it's just, we just, we just like, we haven't posted her in like years.

• 1:28:40Emma Grede?

  Do, do you feel like you concede, like, did she not want you to post her?

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, she didn't want us to, us to post her, but we decided not to post her as well. Because we were just like, it's, it's better like this, you know what I mean?

• 1:28:53Emma Grede?

  It's fair, respectful?

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:56Emma Grede?

  Fair enough. Um, what, what's one misconception about the Shade Room you wish would go away forever?

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Hmm, that we tear down the community, I don't like that. I don't like that. I wish that would go away, but I gotta do the work, I guess, you know?

• 1:29:11Emma Grede?

  Fair. What's something that you valued when you were starting the Shade Room that you no longer value?

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Hmm, being first. I still want to be first, but not in every category.

• 1:29:23Emma Grede?

  I have a feeling you learned the hard way.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  I did, I did.

• 1:29:28Emma Grede?

  Fair enough.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Emma Grede?

  As long as you learn, that's all that matters, Ben. Thank you so much, it was a pleasure.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:29:39Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Corinne, Gilliard Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese. Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Legrosso and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi.

• 1:30:23Emma Grede?

  Social media by Olivia Homann. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schaff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Shaun Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelt G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with emagreed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emagreed.me.