Volleyball Legend Gabrielle Reece on Relationships and Finding Enough

Ryan speaks to Gabrielle Reece about how the Stoics valued hard work, the stillness that is required to accurately observe ourselves, how to properly maintain healthy relationships and find enough for yourself, and more. Gabrielle Reece is a professional volleyball player and author of the New York Times bestseller My Foot Is Too Big for the Glass Slipper. She is also an executive member of Laird Superfood and is also the host of the Gabby Reece Show. This episode is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals, the company that’s reinventing your medicine with clean, effective products that actually work. Beekeepers Naturals has great products like Propolis Spray and B. LXR. For a limited time Beekeepers Naturals is offering Daily Stoic listeners an exclusive deal, receive a free B. LXR sample pack for just $5 to cover shipping. Just go to beekeepersnaturals.com/STOIC to claim this deal. Today’s episode is brought to you by Munk Pack, Keto Granola Bars that contain just a single gram of sugar and 2 to 3 net carbs—and they’re only 140 calories. They’re not just keto-friendy: they’re also gluten and grain free, plant based, and non GMO, with no soy, trans fats, sugar alcohols, or artificial coloring. Get 20% off your first purchase of ANY Munk Pack product by visiting munkpack.com and entering our code STOIC at checkout. This episode is also brought to you by FitTrack, the best way to calculate your body’s composition accurately, reliably, and consistently. Every FitTrack smart scale uses advanced algorithms to offer insights into 17 different metrics indicative of bodily health. Go to fittrack.com/stoic to take 50% off your order, plus get an additional 30% with code BUILD30 at checkout. This episode is also brought to you by Manly Bands, the best damn wedding rings period. Freedom for your hand to look like you want it to look. Whether you’re looking for men’s wedding rings or engagement rings, Manly Bands has you covered. To order your Manly Band and get 20% off, plus a free silicone ring, go to manlybands.com/stoic and enter promo code STOIC.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Gabrielle Reece:Homepage: https://www.gabriellereece.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/gabbyreece Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gabbyreece/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom in everyday life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at DailyStoic.com.

• 0:26Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. My guest today is one of my absolute favorite people. She has like an energy and a calmness, a stillness, if you will, that I find quite wonderful to be around and very inspiring. I don't know, she just sort of gets things on a, on a, on a level that you would expect of like a guru or something. And so the fact that she's also one of the greatest volleyball players of all time, a bestselling author, a fitness expert, a model, just an all-around great person. Gabby Reece is my guest today. She's the host of the Gabby Reece Podcast. Her and her husband Laird

• 1:11Ryan Holiday?

  Hamilton are the founders of Laird Superfood. They make all sorts of awesome products, vegan creamers and fair trade coffee, which they sent me not long ago. It's actually now a publicly traded company. They are very famous for these workouts they do at their place in Malibu, which I have not had the privilege of doing. I always stay downtown when I'm in LA. It makes it very hard to get all the way out to Malibu super early, but I do plan to do it at some point. I did her podcast back when I was doing Stillness, and that's the first time that we met. And so you can listen to that interview as well. You can follow her @GabbyReese on Twitter,

• 1:52Ryan Holiday?

  and you can subscribe to the Gabby Reece Show anywhere you listen to podcasts. Again, this is one of my favorite people. I think this is one of the best interviews I've done in a while, so check it out, and we will talk soon.

• 2:07Ryan Holiday?

  You do seem like someone who sort of operates, I mean, this is a sort of operates on energy. Like, you seem like you have a good vibe for people's energy, and you also seem like you are on a good energy wavelength. Do you know what I mean?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to be on a good wavelength. And, you know, living in natural places like Kauai, and, you know, in parts where I live in California, and living with Laird, it's like, you sort of are trying really hard to stay focused on, like, the essence of things. And, and that's why also, like, my tolerance for, you know, when people make it always more about themselves, or there's always something, I'm like, oh, I have an aversion for that type of energy, because I'm, I'm been raised and also live in a way that it's like, hey, we're all busy, we're all important, we're all not important,

• 3:03Speaker 01

  you know. Yeah, it works well, because then, in a way, you have, you connect with people on things that are real, and you don't get distracted by either their shiny layers and veneers, or, you know what I mean?

• 3:16Ryan Holiday?

  I do. Yeah, I feel like the people that I know that know you, or the people that make the trek out to your, your house in Malibu to, to do the exercises and to spend time together, they, I think the energy is a big attraction to them. There seems to be something that they're trying to tap into, that you and Laird have. And I don't know what that is.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. I think it's, I think none of us have anything. I think it's, it's like this, you know, Laird is actually even better, because his antenna doesn't even pick up half the stuff, in that way. Like, you can't distract him with certain things. So he's pretty good, because in a way, he has a naturalness to him that's, I think, pretty compelling. And I think for me, maybe it's because I grew up in a bumpy way, that I think it was sort of like, oh, if we can get things... Clear and we can be positive for one another ultimately and we can be pretty truthful

• 4:21Speaker 01

  and also not add theater to things. I was, I felt really good. And that, listen, we were both raised on islands. I think there's something to be said for that, that kind of is in you. Yeah. And then we're, you know, we've been together for 25 years. So then we're, we're kind of checks and balancing each other.

• 4:44Ryan Holiday?

  I read something about Obama. Someone asked him sort of how he has that sort of unruffledness. And he said it was the, the, the nights his mother spent watching the sunsets while she was pregnant with him in Hawaii.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's very poetic, isn't it?

• 5:01Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  One thing you gotta give it to Obama, man. That guy was, you know, the orator poetic at the highest, you know, level. But yeah, no, listen, when you're from an island, it's like, a lot of stuff gets stripped away.

• 5:17Ryan Holiday?

  Why is that?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Well, okay, I'll use Hawaii as an example. I grew up in the Caribbean and I think it's a little bit different, but you have big mountains, you have very big ocean. You know, they talk about mana, that which is like the power of the land, the people, it's really derived from a warrior culture ultimately. And so I think it's, it's all so much bigger than you. You're so much closer to how much bigger it all is than you, that I think you don't believe your hype, your own hype.

• 5:56Ryan Holiday?

  Maybe it's the immensity of the ocean too. There is something that it doesn't matter if you're going to the Gulf coast of Florida, or the coast of California, or the coast of Oregon. As soon as like you roll down the windows of the car and you just start to get that salt in the air, like a different, a shift happens.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and you know, Laird always has his, one of his favorite saying is like, "We're all equal before the wave." You know, it's like, "Oh, you're, you know, you're a smart, rich guy." Boom. You know, like, "Oh, you're a beautiful girl." Okay. You know, it's like, and I think in a way, there's a, there's, like you said, you get oriented to the real laws of, of nature and life that basically, I, I almost want to say they keep you in check. And then you kind of, when you can live sort of in check long enough, you, you feel good, like you feel maybe grounded and you, there's like a, you know,

• 6:51Speaker 01

  a kind of self-regulation and discipline in that way that gets, that you get to learn to exercise and, and feel good in. And when you have an outside person come that's high vibrating and they're like, you know, they have a lot of self-importance and they live and, and they think these things are really matter and all this stuff, you can also see it from the outside and be like, "Wow, that, there's a lot of vibrating and, you know, it's just, you get to observe it." And it's funny, you could take a kid from Hawaii who's 13 and bring him to a place where, you know, that's happening a lot, maybe more of a city or something, and they recognize it. It's very interesting.

• 7:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and I think the pandemic is going to have that effect for people because it's sort of been a lot of forced stillness, right? You're, there's not as much stuff happening. We aren't traveling as much. It's quieter. You're spending more time with your family. You have less excuses to be away, to, to sort of numb yourself. And so, like, I was talking to this with, with Matt Berninger of The National and, and we were saying like, you know, you think you need like two weeks. You'll take a vacation. It'll take two weeks. You'll slow down. You'll relax. It turns out it's more like 10 months to actually get to that more sort of island-y, like, like what you maybe have naturally. It took me

• 8:11Ryan Holiday?

  like 10 months just to start to scratch the surface of. And now it'll be weird, like, how do you, how do you keep that when the world does start spinning a bit faster again?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  You know, it's a really great point because it's probably also like a hardwiring. And I would like to emphasize that it's there's elements to this conversation of this particular part of the conversation that's easier when you are in a more natural place. So I really honor people that live in, you know, different places where maybe they don't have that to kind of also push you into that state of mind. But there's a way ultimately where that practice is, then you have to preserve that within yourself. And so as we reemerge in the next, you know, long months or year, back into our sort of other, you know, new reality, it's holding that space within yourself so that you're

• 9:08Speaker 01

  conducting yourself under those same rules, no matter if you're in a skyscraper or you're on the top of a mountain, that you're keeping your, you know, how many things are distracting you and pulling you off of what's important down to a minimum when you can.

• 9:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and I think some people have the fantasy, of course, that like, hey, my life is stressful because I live in a, you know, a one-bedroom apartment in Brooklyn in the middle of a pandemic, but if I could get to Hawaii, or if I lived in Wyoming, all would be well. I think, and there's, it's definitely easier, you're totally right, it's easier and it's, it happens more often when you live in a beautiful place. But they'll be like, even during this pandemic, when I'm not going anywhere, I found myself, you know, like, so I live on this farm out in Texas and, and like, I'll be like, wait, I don't think I have gone further than 200 feet from my house in two weeks because, you

• 10:11Ryan Holiday?

  know, I found someone to do the chores that I didn't want to do and I've been busy and I, you know, you can, it's also, it's also shocking how quickly the beautiful surroundings can, you can become desensitized to them and find chaos and dysfunction and distraction amidst like complete paradise.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  It's actually very common, you know, I, I see it, you know, where I grew up and even here. Is, you know, purpose is very important in life. And so when you sometimes live in these more remote areas or kind of openly natural, if you also simultaneously, not unnecessary busyness or distraction, if you don't find kind of a deep purpose, which could even be like, hey, I'm gonna dig holes and do posts today, you know.

• 11:06Ryan Holiday?

  Right, chores.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  You, you don't have purpose. And then the flip side of that is, that's why you see a lot of drug use and addiction in places like this, because people, there's an interesting thing about us. We're, we're, there's a part of us that are very lazy and we move away from the things that are actually so good for us, which is uncomfortable and, and important work and work that nobody's gonna be like, amazing, good job, and here's a big fat paycheck. But things that, you know, like Laird always says, because Laird is a great example of this. He, he's always doing things. He's like, at least when I dig a hole, I have a hole when I'm done. Well, it's like, so I think it's this, again, having an awareness about, well, where is this behavior gonna leave me?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  And so if it's, I'm not leaving the house and I'm not doing these things, at some point, there's gonna be an intersection where it's not actually gonna be good for me. So I, I think it's always a calibration of having enough constructive, productive things to do, not busyness. And then the stillness that is required to kind of observe our, you know, us and ourselves, our relationships in our life. And, you know, just sort of calibrating that almost, I, I would say actually daily. Like, if people go, oh, I've got that. It's like, yeah, nobody's got it. Like, it's like a daily practice.

• 12:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I remember to mention another president. I remember I would watch, you know, George Bush on television, just like, like Dragon brush around on his farm. And I thought, like, what is he doing? That's so weird. And now I totally get it. It's you're finding sort of made up excuses, like you're saying, like, go dig a hole, or get outside. And it's forcing you to one, put your actual work aside. And then it's forcing you to actually experience nature and be outside in some way that you can't help but appreciate the sunset, or the sunrise, or the birds, or the sounds, or whatever it is.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you lived like in a city, right, it would be, you would then go and volunteer somewhere and help. So on some level, it's like, biologically, I just think it's like, that some of the basics, like, you know, you, you build things, you plant things. Okay, you help your neighbor. Like, these are all biological kind of basic things that we have a way to practice them. I think it's, it's that invisible thing that we don't understand is feeding, you know, this part of our real primal and, you know, longstanding selves that give you this, I think it gives you, if maybe it doesn't give you, maybe

• 13:48Speaker 01

  it keeps at bay, anxiety, depression, anger. And it's, and it's hard to understand why.

• 13:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I don't know why it is. But me, we have this fantasy too, though, like Marcus Rios goes like, people tell themselves like, I'm gonna get away from it all. I'm gonna go to the ocean, I'm gonna go to the beach, I'm gonna go to the mountains. And he's like, but really, you can, you can get it inside yourself anytime you want. I think those activities are a way to access it. But of course, you can also just cultivate the ability to like, sort of, sit and be still, and enjoy yourself for five minutes at your desk. It's just harder to do.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yes, but I but I think no matter where you live, that's still important to do because that sort of mind management or self-management, those skills, whether you live in the forest or, you know, in the metropolitan area, I think unless you have that anyway, you're you're always going to be feeling a little off kilter. So I I think that's essential regardless.

• 14:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and and I think that's I think maybe that's why, you know, as I know some of the people that come out and and spend like the off-season with you guys or, you know, every time they're in town, they'll get up at four in the morning so they can come do workouts in your pool. I think they're trying, I think the the what they what they're what they're desperately needing that you guys seem to have, and this is why I was asking about energy, is it's like, oh, this is, this is what I was looking for, this is what I'd like my life to be like. And then hopefully they take a little bit of that back home with them, whatever they're wherever they are or whatever they do.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think people have the perception, and maybe part of this is right, that Laird and I have been fortunate to combine work and passion and friendship and even our family. And by the way, there's a downside to that, right? Like, my kids are getting older now, and they will bitch and moan that like, well, there was always people here. And I'm like, yes, that was a conscious decision because, Dad, we wanted to be here and we wanted to combine our work and our training, which it's all sort of interwoven, and not leave you guys. And so it's so funny how now I have kids that as they have gotten older, and that's a form of rebellion, and, you know, they have to complain to you about things

• 16:11Speaker 01

  and so they find stuff. But it is really ironic to me that I that I think, oh, this is such an amazing idea. I'm exposing my, I'm not leaving my house, my children, I'm here for them. I'm exposing them to really diverse and interesting people that they can learn from, that offer things that their dad and I don't offer. Wow, that's amazing. And and they'll say, there was always people here. It's like.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  So I also, you know, within it all is the, is the lesson. But I think what you're saying is that people think, oh, wow, they have the great fortune and also figured out in some ways we've, we have, it's all at the same time, right? Our work and we're together and then our kids are around in training and it's sort of all around. And I think that people respond to that pretty deeply.

• 17:03Ryan Holiday?

  Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned.

• 17:12Ryan Holiday?

  No, I want to talk about that. I relate to what your kids are saying though, because so almost every weekend growing up, my parents would, would take us to Lake Tahoe, which is like, I think why we lived in Sacramento. It was, you know, a couple of hours away. So we would go and we'd go skiing and friends would visit and, you know, we sort of had this second life there. And I think to them, they thought it was a sort of a kid's fantasy, like what kid doesn't want to go to the snow and go skiing every weekend? But for me, I was like, I just want to stay home and see my friends. I want to, I want to do nothing. And so I think as a kid, you almost instinctively find a way to not like whatever privileges or gifts your parents have given you.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm actually, I'm almost there. I'm not quite there, you know, it's taken me to the third child who's now 13, right? We have a 25, a 17, and now the 13 year old. And, and it's, I'm almost there with the 13 year old where I can freely accept, like no matter what we're going to do at this time, there, it's just not, it doesn't, it's never going to work. None of it's going to work. Like you say, good morning, they're like, ah, what? You know, it's like, what can I make you for breakfast? It's like, ah, it's just, and I'm almost at the place where I'm like, oh, I understand the rules of this dynamic now. And it's a, it's a breaking away. It's a very uncomfortable time for a young person.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  I am almost to the place where I've stopped completely taking it personal. You know, I did that very well in my marriage and it has taken me so long as a mother not to take it personal. And I'm almost there. Some days I totally get hooked, you know? It's like that ad with the guy with the pole and he's like, oh, you know, you almost got that. It's like, I'm, I'm right teetering every time to like just grabbing a hook of like, well, why would you do that? You know?

• 18:58Ryan Holiday?

  It's funny, your point about how people just sort of really sort of, I think there's some jealousy and escapism that they see in your life that they want and they want to be around it. But it's funny, I get that, like, people go, they'll go, "Oh, you live on a farm. I've always wanted to do that." And it's like, you know, I promise you, my house and farm cost less than your apartment in New York City. You know, like, this wasn't like, this wasn't like I won the lottery. And in fact, like, it wasn't even difficult to do. It was, it was, it was shockingly easy. And it's not like there's some qualification you have to, you know, certification process to doing this.

• 19:42Ryan Holiday?

  Like, literally, anyone can do it. But there is this element where people sort of, they see someone who has this amazing life, and they want to be around it, and they like it, or they read about it. But they really have trouble just wrapping their heads around the fact that, you know, you can live and set up your life however you want. It's like the one thing that you have control of. Yeah, sure, there's constraints and trade-offs, but like, nobody said you have to live in Williamsburg, and nobody said that you have to do X, Y, or Z. This is all, it's all made up, and you, you get to decide what you want your life to look like.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Okay, but, but you're, you're a person who investigates things, who doesn't know about them, but has the confidence. You've talked about the body of evidence, like, "Oh, I'm gonna figure that out." You did well in college and then decided to quit because you had other things you wanted to do. So you're a person who is inclined to trust your ability to work it out. And I think what is hard for a lot of people is, is also, besides thinking, "Oh, I could, I could, I don't know about farms, but I could kind of figure it out." But the other side of it is, if you do it the way, let's say, you're doing it, you and your wife are doing it, or the way Laird and I have done it to date, is in a way, you, you are the only one pushing yourself.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  And so, there's some people, I think, who they, it didn't get, they're either not really that way, they rather have like a system to plug into. But there's something also really, maybe daunting about taking on, "Wait, you mean it's up to me?"

• 21:15Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, to take responsibility for your own life is a very scary thing.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  It's scary. You're unsure. I mean, you know, we both, Laird and I have done it this way our whole time. And half the time, you know, you have to have the confidence to say, this is the way I'm going to do it. And then the other half, you're like, I have no clue if this is going to work out. And then you you get into different rhythms. And also, you you may have to work seven days a week. There's no nine to five. You have to keep your eyes on the horizon and still say, hey, the one year, the five year, the 10 year, you have to really be in charge of the path. And even if it's like, you go down one path for a couple of years, and you go, wow, this is, this has really led to nowhere. And now I fully understand it. And I'm going to create a new path. It's like, you have to go be willing to kind of

• 22:06Speaker 01

  go through all of that. And I don't know that everybody, and that's okay, really wants to do that.

• 22:12Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and and I think one of the objections, people are listening, might go, oh, this is very privileged. Of course, you can afford that. Or, you know, it'd be nice to, you know, live in Hawaii or Malibu. But, you know, my job doesn't let me. I think what's fascinating, and what I want people to understand is that the the not excuses, but the the explanations for why it's not possible, or why it's not reasonable that they're making, which are very practical, in some cases, financial.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:40Ryan Holiday?

  They never stop. Like, I'm sure you've had people who've come to your place in in Malibu, had this amazing time, go, oh, I always wanted to do something like this. Or, I wish my life was more like this. And then you're like, you're a fucking billionaire. What are you talking about? You could buy this in two seconds.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:58Ryan Holiday?

  And yet, you even though you have all the money and all the opportunity in the world, day to day, your life is not set up in a way that makes you happy. And it's just the craziest thing.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's that self check in part, where you're being at every at every opportunity that you're able. That you're really as honest as you can be with yourself. Because I agree with you. Where Laird and I make, where we operate from right now is a place of privilege 100%. However, Laird grew up with an outhouse. I would not have gone to college if I was not six foot three and could hit a volleyball.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  You know, Laird's job is pretty much like you're willing to risk your life. Me, not much.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  And so it's people understanding that your passion for what you saw, your dream, your hope of what it would look like, to have your external life reflect something that you were feeling inside, that you would be willing to take that chance and to fall on your face and fail, which we all have, and still say, okay, I'm gonna, you know, adapt and figure out how to make it work. Or if there are people, like you said, that have all of this opportunity to make it how they want it, they don't really want to do the certain things that it takes to make that happen. Because even today and right now, certainly Laird and I are willing to show up every

• 24:32Speaker 01

  day and do things that are uncomfortable because we know that that's how it kind of works.

• 24:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and I think marriage is another place you see that. So maybe it's like, they're not responding to the beautiful house, or the lifestyle, or that they're just like, hey, like, I've always, like, they're like, oh, man, I'm jealous of your relationship. Because I get that, like, my wife and I have been together, I guess it's 14 years now. It's like a crazy amount of time. But, but, you know, people think that it was like magic, like, again, that it was like hitting the lottery or something. And it's like, they're like, how did, you know, how does, it's like, you know, you know what the number one, I always say, like, the number one way to like, be with someone for a long time is? It's not break up. Like, it's not rocket science. Like, the reason we're still together is that we have not gotten a divorce.

• 25:22Ryan Holiday?

  Like, it's not, it's not, it was that we both decided, like, hey, we're gonna do this thing, and that's gonna be ups and downs and hard and require all sorts of growth and challenges and, and, and all of that. But like, the main part of it is just actually wanting it. It's not like some one in a billion soulmate.

• 25:45Ryan Holiday?

  Thing that happens to you, it's something that you make happen.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yes, and yes, and what's interesting too, though, and as you go even deeper or longer into the relationship, is there's another side to that, which is also you start to really appreciate that you got connected with somebody, it becomes, you become, you appreciate it even more that they were willing to, because you realize it's more rare than we realize when we first meet and we go, I'm in love, we're engaged, we get married. And so I think there's another thing where you, that trade is maybe not as common as, as we think. And, you know, sometimes I, I really think about things because I try to be reasonable and, you know, think about things from all kinds, points of view. And, and you think, okay, well, maybe

• 26:34Speaker 01

  people are born a certain way and their brains are hardwired a certain way. And, and so it's harder for them to get to certain things that might be easier for someone else. You know, like, I'm always thinking about that element of it, where if they had a, some, a trauma and it impacted them and they couldn't recover the same way, maybe somebody else could. So I'm always interested in at what point, I heard that something once that like, okay, by the time we're 27, pretty much no matter what's happened to us, of course, there's exceptions, we really have to take charge, like, we have to be completely responsible for our lives. And so, I don't know, I just find that that's the easiest way, you know,

• 27:17Speaker 01

  is like, oh, I'm gonna be responsible, I'm gonna be responsible for my thoughts, my reactions, my words, I'm gonna be as responsible as I can, and I'm gonna say sorry when I'm not. But it's, it's like, it's literally like training. It's like every single day, if people think, oh, you just show up, you wake up and it just, it's all flowing your way. It's like, you have no idea, I am so much nicer to everyone in my life than I really want to be, because I have decided, hey, this is who I'm really trying to be, so I have to practice that. And it's not that I'm disingenuine, it's that I'm fighting other sides in my personality that are not gonna serve that greater goal. Conversely, like,

• 27:58Speaker 01

  why I don't just shove potato chips. I love potato chips in my mouth, because it's in the long, in the big picture, I'm like, hey, that's not serving that bigger goal that I, I'm really committed to. And so I, I'm always You know, it's like an interesting thing where people think they have this perception of how it is, what it appears to be, and they don't realize that it's just like kind of everyday practice.

• 28:23Ryan Holiday?

  Your point about the other person, like sort of gratitude for the other person for putting up with you, it strikes me as being very true. Like, how old were you guys when you met?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  I was, it's been 25 years. So I was 25, Laird was 31. And, you know, we almost were divorced at five years into our relationship, because I always say like you're learning to dance. I was, nobody had talked to me about communication. I was incredibly scared to be intimate or vulnerable. You know, my mom had left when I was young. So, you know, you sort of have issues with that. And I was like, there's Laird with his neck on the chopping block. Like, I'm here, like, he does everything, like, here he is, in it. And so, we, I was quite, I mean, I thought that was quite young, 25.

• 29:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  And then I feel like we got into a very, very good rhythm by the time I was about 39. And that's because, like, we also, people have to realize that you also have your own individual crises, not just a marital crises within the relationship, work and identity, Laird, stop drinking alcohol, like, you know. So, there's so many storylines happening within it, that how do you kind of weather those and let people have their space to go through their own story. And so, time, it makes it better. And you also get to resolution quicker, right? Like, you're just like, hey, I'm not leaving, so I don't really feel like being tortured or torturing you. So let's just get to the good part of like, hey, what

• 29:56Speaker 01

  did I do that aggravated you? Okay, you know what, I could work on that, that's reasonable. Can I communicate something to you without attacking you and you don't feel attacked? Great, okay. So I think you just get better tools.

• 30:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, like my wife and I met at when we were both like 19, almost 20. And it's like, in retrospect, it's like, I can't imagine putting up with 20 year old myself, you know, like I think about what a saint she must have been to put up with my shit. And, and you sort of go like sometimes, and that's, that's actually the really tricky part, I think about being together for a long time. It's, it's wonderful, but it's also like, you've been like several people since then. And yet, that baggage stays in the relationship. And so it really just requires like kind of a lot of fortitude, like to just be like, I am not going anywhere. I'm going to put up with this.

• 30:51Ryan Holiday?

  And that's like 90% of it.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  But I think the baggage starts to become photographs. I think you'll see in another few more years, that you start to offload things because you just realize like, oh, you know what, like Ryan was that person, but actually there's, it's only just the best parts of him still here. And then it just becomes a photograph on a wall and you go, oh, I remember that trip. You know, it's like, I think you do offload it. And if I, if I remember correctly, you know, your wife already sounds ahead of the game when she encouraged you, when you guys were in college, like she understood something intuitively about you, that probably is also really important. You know, she sees you probably very easily or easier than other people.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  And that is a really interesting thing when you have that in people in a marriage, because also when you felt seen and appreciated for the things that felt important to you easily, that's some really valuable stuff.

• 31:53Ryan Holiday?

  Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned.

• 32:00Ryan Holiday?

  Totally. And I think there's probably an analogy to sports where like, you know, now the model and let's say like the NBA is, is that you, you know, the superstars jump from team to team. They don't really spend a lot of time in one city or with one organization. But, but the value of being a dynasty like the San Antonio Spurs or something. Where the core group is together for years and years. It elevates you to a higher level of play because you actually understand these people, not in a what are they doing, but like, what are they doing? What do they think they're doing? What are they actually doing? What do they think I'm doing? You just have this whole other level of understanding that comes from, you know, and, and actually, that's been a weird thing, I think, on the pandemic is like,

• 32:44Ryan Holiday?

  so we've been together, you know, 15 or so years. But like, this is the most amount of consecutive uninterrupted time we've ever spent together. It's almost like hitting fast forward or like supercharging the connection because you, you're forced to, to sort of do something that might ordinarily have been spread out over several years.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I find myself, I can confess this, I don't care. I find myself like thinking, how can I, how can I sit down when I'm at a meal? And not every time, but like, how can I contribute something new and different? How can I continue to evolve as a person? Because I'm actually interested in trying to engage layered. And so it's interesting where, when you're using this person that you love and admire and respect, that truly knows you, you're good and you're bad, you know, all of it. And you're sort of saying, oh, what, in what ways am I doing a practice in my life to be different? So I can also bring this to, back to them because they're important to me. They're being dynamic in their way, on their own.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  And how do I bring that also to the situation? And the pandemic has really kind of exploited that because we are more, more still than ever, for sure.

• 33:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you have to bring your, your A game.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  It's no, like, it's like no joke. Because I know he's my guy, he's like my guy. And also if he's looking at me, and he's like, if he looks at me at all with like, respect and admiration, that's the litmus. It's not all the fake he fakes out, like people, I can put, project like 30 second clips of intelligence, maybe put a little extra makeup on and people are like, you're amazing. I'm like, you have no idea who I am. If I can get the guy that has to deal with me every single day and knows all the chinks. And he's like, you know what? Good job. And not, and not talking about verbally, but I can see in the eye, I'm like, okay. That's like having that coach that has watched you or that teammate that would say to you, if you played with a teammate, you know, if you played with Tim Duncan for 12 or 15 years, if you're Tony Parker and Tim Duncan came up to you after a game and was

• 34:42Speaker 01

  like, hey, nice job, the gravity of what that would really mean would be so different than the entire arena going, yeah, Tony Parker.

• 34:51Ryan Holiday?

  I was just, so we're in the process of acquiring this like little business in the town that we're in. And so we were on this conference call and my wife and I are like never on conference calls together. Like she has her conference call world. I have my conference call world and we were on this conference call together and this is more her thing than my thing. And we're talking about it and then she just sort of like took over the conference call and she kind of like I could hear like her voice change and she just like took it over. And I remember I called her after and I was like, what was that? That was nuts. Like I haven't, I haven't, I've seen that like three times in our whole relationship, or maybe I'd never seen it at all. And, and it was just this weird moment where you're just like, you see someone that you know so well that you spent so much time

• 35:36Ryan Holiday?

  with, you sort of see in a second how other people see them because you had a weird view or whatever. And it's just a really wonderful experience.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  I think that's super hot, actually. And, and also I think if you have the discipline to, to sort of observe them from time to time, I always say that, like, what can you see in your partner that you could really appreciate? And, and when you, and when you get that opportunity or that distance or that, you know, different viewpoint, it's really cool. It's really cool.

• 36:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, the best one ever is sometimes you, like you'll catch something out of the corner of your eye, be like, who's that? You know? And then you're like, oh, that's, you know, like that's, that's a very, that's a very wonderful feeling as well.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's why it's important. And I know you have, you know, children, young children, that how do we, in small and big ways, keep even within those sort of environments, which it's harder because you're, you have to so many marks to hit just to kind of function domestically, to, to keep sort of, you know, each individual being like, well, who am I today? And what do I like today? And, you know, who do I, who am I trying to be? Because then just have those small growth moments.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  So that you're also doing that for yourself, but also I think it does feed the partnership for sure.

• 37:03Ryan Holiday?

  I went and I talked to the Seattle Seahawks like a few years ago, like three or four years ago now. So it's probably more compounded, but Pete Carroll had his whole career, he'd, since he'd never really found the team where he fit, he'd sort of coached here for a couple of years, here for a couple of years. Then, then obviously he had a good run in, in at USC, but even at USC, the kids were rotating out, right? So he never had to deal with the same group of people for very long. And I remember one of the things he and the coaching staff were telling me that I just found so fascinating. They're like, he'd now been there like seven years or eight years or something. And, and because he'd been so successful early on, a lot of the guys had stayed.

• 37:45Ryan Holiday?

  And they were talking about sort of reaching the point of diminishing returns with his coaching philosophy. Like that he was running out of stories and running out of lessons and running out of gimmicks. And he was like, my struggle now, the thing I'm really working on is how do I sort of, he's like, the philosophy is not going to change, but now I have to find new ways to teach the same old things. Because guys will, first off, the new guys need to hear it. And the old guys won't listen to me telling it the same way again. And I thought that was a decent metaphor for life and marriage, which is like, you're basically doing the same thing over and over again on repeat until you die. If you've seen that movie Palm Springs, it's amazing.

• 38:27Ryan Holiday?

  It's sort of like what life is, but you have to figure out a new way to do the same thing or you're going to go insane or they're going to go insane.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I mean, that's why I appreciate a guy like Phil Jackson, who is willing, you know, the expansion of sort of the philosophical approach. I think you, in a way, it might be easier for someone like you because you have a, you know, a very sort of reasonable side. And then you're always injecting kind of these higher philosophical ideas and principles. And, and I think that that's easier to do when we are good students. And also we continue to embrace wherever it is that we are in our lives. And even if, you know, for example, let's say parenting.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  I was pretty successful for a long time in the external way definition. And the tools I was using was had worked very well. And then maybe 13 years into parenting my middle daughter, I basically had the rug kind of ripped out from underneath me on some things. And that was an opportunity to be like, oh, okay, I'm a pretty good student. I think I need to study a little more and really actually go out and seek new tools, new mentors, new people to say, oh, I see your side, but have you thought of it this way? And it's, I think that in coaching, it would be the same thing where you go, we're all trying to hit the same marks, right?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Like, we need to work together, we need to follow a game plan, we need to, you know, do, show up each day, and I need to be a good leader and all, whatever the things are. However, it's, it's sort of bolting on to that message and saying, oh, you know what? I really believe this, and now I've learned this too. I think that that environment would really stretch you in a way that, that could ultimately enrich like Pete Carroll more than anybody else.

• 40:29Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it requires so much self-awareness because you could, you could also see how a more egotistical coach would be like, I'm me, I'm not changing. The fact that this isn't resonating with the team is their fault. And then you get rid of the, you punish everyone else, and then you just go on being you and wonder why they're not getting with the program.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Right, then you should just coach in college. It would be perfect.

• 40:53Ryan Holiday?

  Exactly, yeah, right.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Until the game changed, if it became then a running game, or a big guy, or whatever, like all the ways, you know, like every sort of sequentially seven or so years, like some new position changes the size of the guy, and all of a sudden it changes the offense or what have you, then, you know, you'd have to adapt there. But then just do get a new rotation of guys, and then the seniors might roll their eyes, but then they're gone, and then you're good.

• 41:17Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that's, to me, that's the story of Nick Saban this year. I mean, you have the most dominant coach in the history of college football, and the game has shifted. I mean, Alabama was always a defensive team, and then, you know, college football became an offensive game. And, I mean, they just won this year as an offensive team. And like, you could see why, there's every reason for Nick Saban not to change, and zero pressure for Nick Saban to change if he chooses to ignore it. And, you know, he would still get to be who he is. You could, you know, the momentum of his career, he could coast to whenever he feels like stopping. And instead, he was like, no, I'm gonna reinvent my game. Like Tiger Woods has reinvented his swing four times. Like, that is the hardest thing

• 42:01Ryan Holiday?

  to do. Because like, we're talking about, nobody's making you do it. You're like insisting on it yourself.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Well, this is like, one of your favorite words in the whole world, right? It's when we can really and truly separate from our ego. And be like, because also, the other interesting thing, and I know a few people like this, Laird is a really good example. I have a built-in good example sometimes, of certain things, where Laird is really not interested in doing what he's done before. He just isn't. And he's not actually interested, you know, there was a time in his career where it was like, hey, capturing it all the time was important, because it was important for building, you know, awareness and storytelling. That was the only way we were gonna, you know, kind of build a scaffolding of a career around him. And I think now that he sort of feels comfortable that there's been some

• 42:51Speaker 01

  of that done, he is so interested in doing, and like, having that experience, like, why Nick is a coach, is probably the same reason why he was a coach 35 years ago, or Tiger wanting to play golf and win. And those guys that don't get destroyed, distracted by money or fame, and they really just want to continue to, you know, study their art, their craft, they want to be better, they want to do it, they want to experience it, those guys are the ones that just continue. People will call it reinvention. And it's like, yeah, no, they just didn't get stuck in what everybody thought, or believing their own BS. And they

• 43:32Speaker 01

  realized that yesterday is yesterday, today is the new day, and what do you want to do? And when you, I feel like those people that live like that, they, I feel like also, they have a A sense of self that's really interesting.

• 43:49Ryan Holiday?

  Was it hard for you to transition away from volleyball?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't because I I fell into volleyball first late, so I it wasn't always I didn't get it groomed into me about like it being what I do. And I and then I I um I once I became a professional, I realized I was like, oh, this is a really I loved volleyball. I dedicated eighty-five percent of my time to training and being better.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  And, you know, all of my income actually, you know, I sort of was doing this other dog and pony show when I started doing TV and other things. But I was like, no, this is this is what makes me feel like me. Like, I felt like, oh, I'm honest. I know myself when I'm in this situation, and practice sucks and I suck. Then I get to see myself like just all the things that you learn when you're in those kind of environments. But I was so keen to understand that it was a limited platform. So that was the other thing. And it's actually so it's easier. My point is, is like, if I was a great tennis player, I could have maybe that transition would have been harder. But I understood the rules of engagement when I became professional. And even when I was successful as a professional, I was like, I understand the limitations.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  So I I never was like, I'm gonna hang everything I have as far as my self-worth, my identity into this. And then, given a little more time, like, as you get older, you realize, like, oh, that's all from the outside coming at you versus you've got to stay in charge by making it all about what's inside you going out into the world. And when you can do that, that's really going to be the only thing you're in charge of. Because, Larn, I talk about all this this all the time, like, what if you win, like, yeah, you win the Super Bowl and it's Sunday. Okay, Monday, cool. And then you got a parade that week. Great, next week. Now, are you gonna defend your, you know, championships? It's like a cycle. It's a beast that you can never feed.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  So just make sure you're doing things. For yourself, for your real reasons. It doesn't mean attention isn't great. It doesn't mean, you know, all those things aren't nice. They don't, it's of course, they feel good. But you somehow have to find the way, I think, to keep it in check because it is a long life.

• 46:02Ryan Holiday?

  No, I wrote about this recently. I think what, what happens is you win a Super Bowl and your whole life was towards winning the Super Bowl and you get it. And then, you know, the confetti comes down and you're holding the trophy and it's, it's amazing. And then it's also sad because it's not what you thought. It's not as amazing as you thought. And, and this is true, you know, when my book hit number one for the first time, I'm sure it was true for your greatest accomplishment. And all the great things, all the external things we strive for, we get them. And there's, it's, it's wonderful and also disappointing at the same time. And we have sort of an option there, whether you're on the medal

• 46:46Ryan Holiday?

  stand or, you know, ringing the, the bell for your first public company or your, you know, you just won a Pulitzer Prize or whatever it is. You can wrestle with that disappointment and you can go, why did I think this was going to make me happy? Why did I think this was it? Or you can do what most people do, you know, I think of Kevin Durant winning in Golden State and he goes, ah, this is amazing, but it doesn't count because Golden State was already good when I came here. Now I need to win one on my own and that will feel different. Then I'll, you know what I mean? Or it's, or it's, I have to win the most, you know, college football championships. I have to win the most gold

• 47:28Ryan Holiday?

  medals. I have to make, I have to be the, I, you know, it's nice to be on the Forbes list, but really it's about the number one spot, you know, and that, so, so we, we, instead of honestly, instead of taking the feelings that we have at face value, that this is disappointing and not what we, what we thought, we lie to ourselves and we say, oh, it's just not enough. I didn't get enough of it. And next time it'll be different.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Right. And you know what's interesting too is Is, you know, this non-sustainable thing. I find it fascinating that I still live off the fumes of stuff I've done 25. You know what I mean? Like, I always, that so trips me out. Cause I'm like, oh, are we talking about that? So cool, no problem. But I feel like I've had seven lives since then. So I try to flip it and say, wow, I am getting away with that. Right? Like somehow I'm still getting credit for that stuff. That's amazing. Okay, great. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be working over here and trying to create new experiences and, and, and stories that feel good to who I am right now and what's, you know, what I, what I can be doing.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  But I know it's, it's oversimplified and it sounds cheesy, but you know, have you ever been sitting there and like a ladybug lands on your arm?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Like sometimes, you know, you're sitting in your bed and your kids got up before you and you hear them running their little feet running, you know? It's like-

• 48:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, or even in the middle, like my son wakes up at like 10:30 every night and runs into our room and that sound is like my favorite sound in the whole world.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  It's kinda, that's it. Like if we can feed our families, if we can pay our bills and if we can put a roof over our head and, and you know, you know, do that and, and if we need medical care, get it. It's like if, if we think besides trying to like be our best selves, so putting ourselves in the matrices, it's like I told my middle daughter who likes tennis, she goes, sometimes she's a pretty, really smart kid and she goes, sometimes it seems stupid. You know, like I'm gonna hit a ball and I go, okay, that's a really important thought because you have to, it has to mean so much to be good at anything.

• 49:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  And sometimes when we step just far enough back, you go, this is kinda stupid. It's like, yeah, it is. But I go, but it's a matrix for you to learn the lessons so that you can be yourself, whatever that needs to be that you'll take on to the next. So just look at it as, you know, a place that you're doing that, not, oh, I hit a ball over a net and if I do that better than someone else, somehow that's good. And, and so I think for me, it's when we can go, oh, the, the ladybug, she fell on my hand and I'm, I'm noticing and that makes me feel good. It feels, it feels like a moment. I just think it's a bunch of moments and if we can, and I'm not an oopy-goopy person, like I don't look at a sunset and go, oh my God.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  In fact, I take it in and I almost intellectualize it, but I'm very clear in that moment, this is it.

• 50:23Ryan Holiday?

  Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Yeah, no, I tell the story and he goes into me, there's this exchange between Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut where Vonnegut's teasing Heller that they're in the house of this billionaire. And he says, how does it feel that this guy made more money this week than your novel? You know, Catch 22 is made in his lifetime. And Heller says, it feels fine because I have something he doesn't have. I have enough. And to me, if you can get to a place where you've, you've done stuff, but whatever it is, it's enough. Like for me, like I wrote, I published a book. I published my first book when I was 25 years old and it was a

• 51:05Ryan Holiday?

  book about my life and experiences. Like I get to, like, I feel very lucky because I told myself then, and I don't know where this came from, but I was like, this is fucking it. I fucking did it at 25. Like, it's all gravy from here. That, so, so the last, you know, what is it, eight years have been quite a wonderful ride because it's all good. I'm not that, like, other people have had more, but I'm already full. So this is all extra, you know? And if you can get to a place where you're, where you're ambitious and you try to do things, but it's from a place of fullness rather than emptiness, I think that's, that's a really wonderful place.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  And it also becomes easier, I believe, when you have connection. You have a wife that you, has loved you a very long time. And so I also want to say that part of that formula, I think, is that when you have friends that love you, when you have a partner, and it doesn't have to be both, right? It just, those connections with people who are like, you know what, I'm so excited for you because you really wanted to do that, but I kind of love you the same, like, whatever, you know, it's like, I think people have to realize that. You know, for me, a lot of my success came from, from fear. You know, it's like I was trying to find stability and I'm really well aware of that.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  But when we're so busy focused on the goals and getting and we don't invest the time, because by the way, in having real relationships means you take and you give, you have to be available, you listen, it's not always sexy. It's like when you're really showing up there and you have those people that are like, you know what, you really show up, I'm there for you. Then I think you can go out into the world with a different kind of base of power that is so real versus, we've seen it a thousand times, you get a billionaire, everyone's attracted to them because they're billionaires, because that's what they're putting out there. This is what I am, this is what I, I have, you know, I'm a billionaire. And then they never get that thing and then they're never sure.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  And I think that it's a, it's such a cliche and, and so, you know, that's, that's been the part of it for me is like, don't bite the hook. So, you know, don't, when they say you're great, don't believe them. When they say you suck, don't believe them. Have the right amount of people in your life to tell you the truth.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And also like, I've listened, what's her name, Caroline Leaf, she's a neuroscientist, talks about like the I factor, so nature, nurture and the I factor. What is your, what is it only you can do? Because like, we're not special, but we kind of are. And so like, what's the one, what's like your thing you can put out into the world?

• 53:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and, and I, I think it's important that people realize that like a spouse or relationships or friends, these are actually weirdly like career advantages. Like they're not, they're not only not at odds with being successful in your career, it may be the best decision that you make because it centers you, it, it, it keeps your ego in check, it prevents sort of you from being insatiable or, or, you know, it prioritizing the wrong things. It's unquestionably the best decision that I made in my life.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yes, and, and if someone is listening and they're just not at that place yet, I think that there's, there's other ways, meaning even just having these, this sort of, you know, a friend, support group.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you can't lie. You can't BS in it. And so, in a way, you're just constantly peeling back the layers of yourself. And I think that that only helps you in your work.

• 54:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, and it, isn't that ultimately the point of being successful in the work? Is to have a happy life? You know, like, isn't that, like, I think people do a bad job defining what success is, like, where they're actually trying to go. So they get focused on these sort of little goals. And then they often pursue those things at the expense of the big goals.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Well, yes, because sometimes the big goals, which are the, they're quiet, right? They're not grand in certain ways. They're rich, but it's just not so external. So I think that that makes sense why. And I liken it, I had a situation in parenting where, you know, they hand you a new baby and you're like, oh, my goodness, the possibilities are infinite. You're gonna get an incre, you're gonna be so smart. You'll probably play the piano. You're probably gonna speak three languages. I mean, it's gonna be amazing, right? Because you think you're gonna just get a jump on all of this. And I remember at one point, we were going through something with one of the girls.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  And Laird said, just make it to 25, you know? And I was like, so we've taken all of it out and just gotten right down to it? Which is like, can you just survive it? So that we can work the rest out? But if you don't survive it, we can't work anything out. And if you speak French or don't, I really don't care. You know, like, so I think it's, to your point, what is success? How do we define it? How do we get here in our programming about what we think success is? And how do we give space to people, to our children? To really explore this idea of, well, this is what success feels like to me. Maybe I do have a nine to five job.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  I can cover my bills, but I have hobbies that I'm into. I see people weekly that I really enjoy. And I feel good.

• 57:04Ryan Holiday?

  Also, I would, I would value not seeing people that I don't enjoy seeing. That's a big, a big part of it for me as.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Saying no and being honest about, you know, I have a good friend that taught me this. Go towards, does this situation, person, environment make me feel comfortable? Does this situation, person, environment make me feel uncomfortable? You don't have to say it's good or bad. You don't have to explain why they're this or that. Do I feel comfortable? Do I feel uncomfortable? And if we can move towards things, at least in that emotional way. I believe in physical discomfort, productive, physical discomfort on, on the regular. But if in that other way with your spirit and your inside, can I be with people that make me feel comfortable?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  In the way that it's like, it's sort of your tribe. It doesn't mean they don't say things to you that you have to really look at. I'm not talking about that. I think that is a huge success in life.

• 58:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think life is too short to put up with crappy people unnecessarily. That's not to say you all, you know, like you have to be nice to rude strangers. You have to tolerate that people disagree with you. You can't expect the world to be totally around you. But you don't have to allow those people into your house and you don't have to let them run sort of rampant through your life, which unfortunately is what a lot of people do. And then they wonder why they're not happy.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, they get obliged. They're, they're obligated somehow. And I always say my rules of engagement, when people outside my four walls, I'm like, knock yourself out. Once we get into my four walls, I really, it's such a different intense lens that I use and I, and I agree with that. And I really always encourage people, you know, standing up for yourself or what works for you doesn't make you a bad person.

• 58:57Ryan Holiday?

  No, of course not. No.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Females, we wrestle that bugger to the ground all the time. Like, is that okay? And I don't want to hurt their feelings. And guys are like, yeah, no. You know, it's like more so than not. And so one thing beautiful about age is you just go, I know, I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me. And people might be like, I can't believe, it's like, I know, we've been friends for 25 years.

• 59:21Ryan Holiday?

  I love that expression, hard pass, like where people ask you to do something, you just hard pass. Like, not only, like, I'm not even, like, there's a great expression I heard, and obviously, I understand there's like, some sexual connotation that's bad. So that's not what I'm saying. But the one where it's like, don't say maybe, if what you mean is no. And that's been like, good advice for me in my life. But women do that a lot, you know, because they, they don't feel like they can say no. So they say maybe. But what they really mean is like, get the fuck away from me. I don't want anything to do with you.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Well, and it's actually better if I could, could say this, is you say no. And I say, it's like, no blood in the water. Because maybe, then means later, you have to come up with a no, and an excuse why you're going to say no. And usually, it's not completely based in the truth. And so now you're doing these weird behaviors. But if you say no, people won't be like, well, are you sure? It's like, oh, that's a no. Where you can get engaged in a lot more if you say maybe, and then have to create the no. And so I think it's

• 1:00:23Ryan Holiday?

  Totally.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Really good. It's sort of like, the no explaining yourself rule. Once you get, people get accustomed to it. They're like, oh, when Gabby, it's like, oh, we're having a girls lingerie martini night. Oh, yeah, we're not even going to ask Gabby. Like, we are, no. You know what I mean? So I think it also, you train the people around you to kind of get a sense of like, what's ultimately going to kind of is your jam, you know?

• 1:00:49Ryan Holiday?

  No, I like the rule idea. The other one I heard is like, it's good to have a rule. So you go like, I have a rule that I don't do X. And then so people ask you to do X, you go, I have a rule, I don't do that. So like, I go like, I have a rule, I don't blur books. And then I just say that. And then I, you know, and that's, I don't say, no, I'm not going to do it because X. Say, I have a rule, I don't, don't blur books.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Right. And it's not personal. I'm not blurbing your book. I just don't blur any books. That's genius. You know who does that actually very well and does, has a lot of those? Is Tim Ferriss.

• 1:01:21Ryan Holiday?

  Of course, yes. Tim, Tim, I sometimes feel like his, it sort of has so many rules that he's not sure what they all are, how they interact with each other. I feel like Tim is, Tim has to remember a lot of rules. And, and so I try to keep it simple and I, I also break my rules all the time if it's something I want to do. But the point is you just go like, I have a rule, I don't do that. And then that's the end of that discussion.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kind of amazing. So is it like, I have a rule that I don't let my kids be friends with either asshole kids or kids with asshole parents? Is that okay?

• 1:01:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. Whatever, whatever the rule has to be to not do the thing you don't want to do. It can be totally made up.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Totally kidding, but it's like, I used to say to my girls, but wait a second, if you're friends with the kid, does that mean I have to be friends with those parents, you know?

• 1:02:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Ryan Holiday?

  Another upside of the pandemic is just so much less of that. And so as an introvert, it's like the best.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness, I know. It's amazing because you go, well, have we ever, there's going to be maybe what? 50% of our friendships that we just won't ever resume.

• 1:02:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Oh, I didn't think about that. Right. No, it's a, it's just like all the standing things that just got eliminated that aren't important enough to get inserted back into life.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  It just, and so much time has gone by that literally you'd have to put energy to start the motor again. So you're just like, oh yeah, no, it's, that's, that one's done. It's kind of, that's amazing, actually.

• 1:02:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, and, and I mean, and for me, that was a double whammy of having young kids. I already had a bunch of excuses to do stuff. And so now it's like, you know, I got the, I got the kids, I got the pandemic, I'm, I'm living my best life.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  And you have farm animals. I mean, you're busy.

• 1:02:59Ryan Holiday?

  That's true. Well, so that's another thing is, uh, living right outside town means I go, you know, someone's like, I'm in Austin. Do you want to see, you know, want to get together? I don't live in Austin, you know, like, I'm sure Malibu, it's like, someone's like, hey, I'm in LA and I'm, I'm staying downtown by the Staples Center. We should get together. And you're just like, I'm sorry, that's a two hour drive for me. I'll, I'll see you, you know, never.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  No, it's so true. Like where you, and it's, it's so funny how much time you have for the things and people that you, that you want.

• 1:03:32Ryan Holiday?

  Right. No, if your best friend was, was staying in, in Phoenix, you'd be like, oh, I can make that, you know, like you, you do that. But, uh, it's ju, you want just enough natural barriers to keep away the things you don't want to do. And then it also kind of shows you what you do want to do.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  It does. And I think it's important to, to pay attention to those cues.

• 1:03:53Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I appreciate you doing this. It was something I definitely wanted to do. And I look forward to seeing you again in person soon.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Well, I appreciate you and, and always, um, your thoughts and things and just.

• 1:04:03Ryan Holiday?

  You're the best.

• 1:04:06Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks for listening to another episode of The Daily Stoic. It's mind blowing to me now that we are well over 30 million downloads of this show. It means so much to me to have all of you listen. If you want to help spread the word about the show, please leave a review on iTunes or whatever your favorite podcasting platform is. It helps a lot. And then of course, click subscribe. That's how we know how many people are listening and that, that makes sure you get the episodes as they come in. So thanks again for listening to the Daily Stoke podcast.