Esther Perel: The Modern World Can Sap Your Life Force. Here's How To Recapture It.

The legendary psychotherapist unpacks the concept of "hostile dependency" and explains why cutting people off doesn't always work. Psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel https://www.estherperel.com/?1e8cce79_page=5&categories=Eroticism&tw_source=google&tw_adid=715080004713&tw_campaign=21749016432&tw_kwdid=dsa-19959388920&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21749016432&gbraid=0AAAAA93e13k9nA_EhLCsq-SVUpUeEhsyc&gclid=CjwKCAiAjc7KBhBvEiwAE2BDOWlolkyLNSd3QDajCDcZLzjEa0pVaAhpoETaM2agDQ1uzqqHFeglRRoCGQIQAvD_BwE is a leading voice on modern relationships, known for her widely viewed TED Talks, bestselling books and the hit podcast. She runs a New York–based therapy practice and advises global organizations and platforms on the complexities of contemporary relationships. Follow Esther Perel's podcast Where Should We Begin? https://www.estherperel.com/podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and subscribe to Entre Nous with Esther Perel https://estherperel.substack.com/ on Substack for exclusive bonus content. In this episode we talk about: What Esther Perel really means by eros How modern life quietly depletes our sense of feeling alive Why aliveness can coexist with grief, pain, and difficulty The danger of numbness Introverts, extroverts, and the many non-social ways we experience vitality Vital sources of connection and meaning Co-regulation, touch, presence, and why words alone aren't enough "Hostile dependency" and the paradoxes of long-term relationships Why loneliness has become normalized, and why it shouldn't be How to rebuild community through small, practical acts Rituals as a way to mark time, create meaning, and feel grounded The tension between individualism, belonging, and responsibility to others Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris Thanks to our sponsors: HomeServe: Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Go to homeserve.com http://homeserve.com/ to find a plan that's right for you. LinkedIn:  Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/happier http://linkedin.com/happier. NOCD: Head over to nocd.com http://nocd.com/ and book a free 15‑minute call with their team, to learn more and start getting help with OCD. OneSkin:  Get up to 30% off your first three subscription orders when you use the code "happier" at OneSkin.co/happier http://oneskin.co/happier.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hello, everybody. How we doing? Today, I'm talking to a frequent flyer on this show, one of my favorite repeat guests, Esther Perel, the legendary author and podcaster and psychotherapist. We're going to talk about how modern life can sap your life force and how to get it back. Just in case you're unfamiliar with Esther, she's the bestselling author of several books, including Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. She's also the host of the hit podcast, Where Should We Begin? And she's got a new Substack, which I highly recommend. This conversation, we talk about what Esther means by the term eroticism, which she says is often used way too narrowly, the danger of numbness.

• 1:03Dan Harris?

  She introduces me to the term hostile dependency, which I'd never heard before and is totally fascinating. We talk about how loneliness has become normalized, how to rebuild community, which everybody's always telling us how to do, but how to actually do it. Rituals as a way to mark time and create meaning in your life. The tension between individualism, belonging, and responsibility to others. And why cutting people out of your life does not always go the way you think it might go.

• 1:32Dan Harris?

  Before we dive in, just a super quick plug for my new app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris. Today is the start of our free New Year's meditation challenge. It's seven days with the legendary meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein, who gives a kind of master class, an on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. This is good for both beginners and experienced meditators. I was in the room, meditating along with Joseph while he recorded the guided meditations. I got a ton out of it. Sign up at danharris.com to download the new app and join the challenge. There's a free 30-day trial for the app if you want to try before you buy. We'll get started with Esther Perel right after this.

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• 3:13Dan Harris?

  Esther Perel, welcome back to the show.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  Pleasure to be here again with you then.

• 3:17Dan Harris?

  So let me start with this question.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:21Dan Harris?

  What is?

• 3:21Speaker 03

  I'm always like, what's gonna be his open question? But yes, I'm all ears.

• 3:29Dan Harris?

  Man, I don't mean to spark that kind of apprehension in my conversation part. Okay. So what is, you talk about Eros a lot, E-R-O-S. What do you mean by that?

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Look, the original meaning, the mystical meaning, the historical meaning of Eros is life force. Creativity, engagement, aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, imagination. It really is only very recent that the word has been kind of reduced to its sexual meaning, to a set of repertoire and techniques and urges and accoutrements. And erotic is to feel alive. And that sometimes happens in the midst of acute pain, too. It is not just an exalting experience. The erotic applies to all areas. It applies to art, to work, to relationships, to nature, to daily life.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  You know, everybody knows the difference between something that isn't dead. And something that is alive, a relationship that isn't dead and a relationship that is alive, a project, a person, that distinction is very, very important. Modern life, I think, sometimes depletes the erotic. It overthinks, it overisolates, it numbs, it tries to reduce every uncertainty into something that can be easily fixed and calculated. So that's for me the erotic. When do you feel most alive is a question that probes the erotic.

• 5:04Dan Harris?

  Hmm, so let me ask you that question, Esther. When, when do you feel most alive? I'm curious.

• 5:11Speaker 03

  I feel most alive when I sing and especially if I sing with others, when I laugh with others. My, my experiences are often quite collective in nature, actually, they're less solitary. When we are a group of dear friends or my family and my friends around a table, super engaged in stories and conversation. I think movement, dancing of any kind, are all experiences when I feel alive, energized, vibrant.

• 5:44Dan Harris?

  And when you say that modern life depletes eros, is it that many, if not most of us, are not having these experiences of what I believe Emil Durkheim called collective effervescence?

• 5:57Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, not enough. You see, I mean, here we are, you and I, and we are talking, we're trying to reach each other. We, on the one hand, can have this conversation that if I was living far away, we, we would not, but on the other hand, we are not in the presence of each other. We are not able to be tactile, we're not able to see each other, we're not really having eye contact. And I do think that in real life is a major element of the erotic experience. It is sensory, it is sensual, it involves the entire being, not just words, basically. So that's the, the first thing about modern life depletes it. I also think that the erotic exists in a space that is much more ambiguous.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  It's not Another place of certainty. It's a place of serendipity. It's a place of curiosity, of exploration, of discovery. And these days, many of us tend to lean on the side of rules and safety and security and less on the side of openness, risk, adventure. So that too numbs the erotic. If you're constantly wanting to be sure about things, then certainty is the enemy of change.

• 7:11Dan Harris?

  What do you think are the negative impacts on us from having the erotic depleted in our lives? And again, the erotic in the most broad sense of that term.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Look, eroticism, as in aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, is an antidote to death or deadness. On the flip side of feeling alive is feeling dead, deadened. Flat, muted, numb, dull. Those are the words that accompany it. Alive doesn't mean excited. Alive means feeling in touch with life, with its vibrancy. That's why I say it's very important to understand that you can feel very alive in the midst of grief, but you're feeling something with an intensity. The flip side of that is isolation, disconnection, numbness, and deadness.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  You can have it inside of you and you can have it in relationships. And you can have it in companies. And you can have it in various places that once used to be creative hubs. So it is actually a major source of energy. And we all know in the body that energy precedes blood flow. If you have no energy, you have nothing to start with. It's true for all kinds of other mechanics as well. So when I talk about the erotic, I talk about an energy. It's not a particular situation. It's energetic. Everyone understands when you feel alive, you sit differently. Your body has a different position.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Your chest is open, your arms are open. That is very different from this.

• 8:55Dan Harris?

  She has her neck down in her phone, just for the listeners.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm leaning forward, I'm lifting my shoulders, I'm lowering my head, I'm slouching in. I may be comfortable, but I'm expecting nothing, no surprise. I mean, the erotic is a field of mystery and surprise, which is what makes us feel alive and makes us want to get up in the morning and see what does today hold for me. So on the other side, when I say deadness, I could say depression, melancholy, anxiety, but I don't want to just use psychological terms, I want to use actually existential terms. And the erotic is essential because it's an antidote to deadness. It's where hope resides too, by the way, for those for whom that is a word, aspiration, hope, longing.

• 9:45Dan Harris?

  For the people who are listening who are introverts, and you know, I have a lot of introverts in my life who would much rather be wearing comfy socks and laid out on the couch than going with me to the parties I like to go to. They may be thinking, well, I'm exempt from everything Esther is describing. What would you say to anybody reaching that conclusion?

• 10:06Speaker 03

  But you're not. When you listen to music alone, you can listen to music and it transcends, it transports. When you are deeply immersed in a novel, it also has to do with being immersed in something and feeling something deeply. It doesn't have to be collective, but by the way, many introverts like to be with people on occasion, they need a lesser dose of it, and they need to replenish by themselves. That doesn't mean they don't like to be in the company of people. But I think you may not want to go to a club, but you may want to be very pleased to dance with three, four friends. You may want to just listen to music and music that really kind of penetrates your pore.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  You may want to write, you may want to do clay work, I mean, you know, the tactile is extremely important too. So I absolutely don't think that there is a connection between introvert versus extrovert to the sensuality of the erotic and eroticism in our life. Maybe to the particular expression of it, yeah, of course, why not? There's a broad range. Walking in nature. Even if you like to do it by yourself, or looking at art, or all these experiences that connect you also with the aesthetic dimension and the regeneration. Because, you know, in nature, things die and come back. I mean, it's generative, and that means it is alive.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  So I, I think you may want different things than what I describe myself, because I'm like you, I'm much more of an extrovert. But I live with one who doesn't need nearly the same amount of social events as I do, and he's deeply connected to the erotic. So don't feel left out, is what I'm saying to the introverts. You're completely connected to this dimension of life.

• 11:54Dan Harris?

  So another area of the erotic that we haven't gotten to yet, and I know from personal experience, hanging out with you, is important to you, is food.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I mean, everyone knows the difference between food for sustenance and food for pleasure and connection. It's the same idea as when I say a relationship, you know, that isn't dead, that just is surviving, and a relationship that is thriving and feels alive. It often involves pleasure as well, but it involves intensity. Food is extremely important to that. And I've never known that people want to understand the difference between introverts and extroverts as it relates to food necessarily. Interestingly, food transcends that, right? But there is something about that nurturing, that creativity that goes into cooking. For some people, not my thing, but, you know,

• 12:44Speaker 03

  that imagination, that element of surprise. I put that and that together, I had no idea, wow. You know, that first spoon that you take. I mean, it's filled with all the erotic ingredients. Discovery, surprise, mystery, pleasure.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  Connection. It's very, you know, I think food is probably the one I would put above many others because we all eat.

• 13:10Dan Harris?

  Hmm. Tell me if you think I'm hearing you correctly. If I am hearing you correctly, I really agree with it, which is that introverts need connection with the world and with other people. They just might need fewer interpersonal connections than unreconstructed extroverts like Esther and Dan do.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Unreconstructed. I like it. Yes, yes. I think that we have a tendency to think that because someone is an introvert, they do not like to be with people. I think sometimes that is the case, but the majority of the time, it's a different ratio. It's a different intake level and there's a different need to replenish and different ways to replenish. You know, there are, an extrovert may often replenish by being with people and then when they're full, then they go and spend some time alone. An introvert may often, you know, replenish by themselves, fill the tank, and then when they feel recharged, then they go into the world and meet with people.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  But to think that because one is an introvert, one is solitary by definition and disconnected from others, I don't think is capturing the range of what introversion includes. Same for extroversion for that matter. But you know, you said something at first about the distinction between eroticism and sexuality and why I said modernity has narrowed the definition of eroticism in very sexual terms. Sexually as well, people know that you can do a lot of things and feel nothing or very little. People know that in the erotic, you can do very little and feel a ton because your imagination

• 14:54Speaker 03

  is active, because your creativity is writing, because your longing is singing. When I translate it like that, I have really wanted to bring back a word that describes such important parts of our lives and that we have kind of allowed to be narrowed and reduced and it's not really helping us.

• 15:19Dan Harris?

  I just so strongly agree with everything you're saying. One of the things you said earlier that I do want to kind of double click on because I see it in my own life and I see it in the research, in the science, that while our interpersonal lives can be fraught and difficult at times, at the end of the day, we do need other people in order to reduce our stress. Like, many of the things that are bothering us, stress, overwhelm, anxiety, can be medicated through friendship and through being with other people. That feels like an overlooked lever.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  Absolutely. But you know, as you were talking, I thought there is one other dimension that I would love to add to your first question, which is the spiritual dimension. Everyone knows that the most religious poems can be deeply erotic, and the most erotic poems are highly spiritual. These two dimensions are very interconnected. Why? Because it has a transcendent element to it, because it has a kind of an abandon to it, because it allows us to be taken, carried into a realm of mystery and unknown, which is what spirituality is a beautiful vocabulary for that. So, this time of year, I've been going

• 16:39Speaker 03

  to places where I watch people sing together. And it is an incredible thing, because the resonance of unison, of voices that come together, is probably, first of all, the most ancient, or the more ancient, and connective technologies that we have ever developed. You do not need to know the person next to you. You do not need to speak the same language as the person next to you. You just have to hum with them. And you meet at a level of resonance that is, talk about distressing. It's really, really significant. Now, it is true that some of the sources of our stress come from people. Around us, and it is equally true that some of the best way we can alleviate,

• 17:22Speaker 03

  and I prefer the word alleviate than medicate, our stress, our tension, our despair, our anxiety, our angst, comes from being with people. One person, doesn't have to be people in the plural, comes from our connection to other human beings. And more importantly, it's not always a verbal connection. That's the thing I'm trying to say. And these days, since we have been texting nonstop, on the one hand, people have never written as much as they do today. We've really become an epistolary culture. On the other end, we are only relying on words when this happens. There's a whole contextual way that we communicate with each other that has to do with shared understandings and shared histories

• 18:05Speaker 03

  and nonverbal cues and body language and deep context that gives meaning to communication that at this moment, we are not engaged with enough. We're primarily dealing with what is called cold information, not warm information. So I load the erotic into that. To me, these things are very much interconnected. But you were asking me a different question, and I went back to the previous one, and so remind me. I took off in a different direction.

• 18:36Dan Harris?

  Whatever direction you go in, I like. Coming up, Esther Perel talks about ways to co-regulate, why aliveness isn't about excitement, but about feeling deeply, how isolation and numbness show up in everyday life, and what happens when the erotic disappears.

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• 19:51Dan Harris?

  What I was just asking about is the mechanism by which we co-regulate.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  We co-regulate by putting a hand on the knee, on the shoulder, on the neck, what we call the bony handles of our bodies, where we ground someone. We co-regulate by breathing together. We co-regulate by singing together. We co-regulate through eye contact. We co-regulate by offering consolation and empathy and reassurance. It's all of those mechanisms that regulate us. But I am not someone who's talking about the nervous system. It's familiar to me, but it's not exactly my vocabulary. That doesn't mean it's not an essential component.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  But when I talk about co-regulation, I think of it. And I'm going to give you one example that I find very interesting. So yesterday, I had a couple that is going to be coming on to the podcast soon on where should we begin? And at one point, the woman gets agitated and upset, and he tries to reach out. And as he tries to reach out, she could say, this is really nice to hear. This is what I've been waiting to hear. But what happens to her is that she says, what took you so long? Now, after all this?

• 21:17Speaker 03

  So then he reaches out with his hands. And then she gives him the hand, but then she takes it back. And then she gets upset that she's upset. And that he's not able to make her be not upset. And then I said, here's for me, one of the most powerful images of regulation. And it comes from watching babies. You see a baby in the crib that is standing there and shaking it and saying, pick me up, pick me up. Then you pick them up. And what is the first thing that they do? They arc. They arc back. You know, they're all, they, they, they have a curve in their back. They open their hand, their shoulder.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  And slowly you rock them and slowly, slowly, slowly do they move their body forward and they let it drop onto your chest. We see it in kids and we understand it very, very well. When you have this regulator to arc and it takes a while till you are able to fold yourself and trust and connect to the source of comfort that is right next to you. That's what you're referring to, the return to people. But for an adult, it's the same thing. It's just that we don't visualize the arcing of the adult. All we see is the adult who instead of saying, thank you, says fuck you. You know?

• 22:38Speaker 03

  And yet it's like the, the most important part about regulation is pacing. Pacing. If I need you to calm down quick because I actually can't tolerate you being agitated because it agitates me, then we are actually not co-regulating. We are co-stressing.

• 22:59Dan Harris?

  One of my perhaps glib little expressions is that I think about the human curse as we need other people in order to flourish and other people are a gigantic pain in the ass.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  It's not the same people. That's the good thing. It's not, that's the good thing, it's not the same people.

• 23:19Dan Harris?

  In your marital life, it sometimes is.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  Yes, in your marital life, that is one of the beautiful paradoxes of a long-term relationship. And it is true also between parents and children.

• 23:32Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  I love you, I hate you, I need you, I don't wanna need you. We are constantly straddling, I wanna please you, but I also wanna stay true to myself. I wanna stay true to myself, but I don't wanna lose you in the process. I wanna make my own decisions, but I also am caring about what effects they have on you. That whole dance there, it's the core dynamic of relationships, period. All of them, by the way, but especially between children and parents and especially even in friendships, in relationships that involve love in the broad sense of the word. But you can have many, many friends. And of course, you can have more than one partner, but the majority of us at this point don't.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  So we are, you know, in a cycle, what I call often hostile dependency, right? I need you for things to be better, I need you to change, but you're not doing it. So I get angry at you, and the more I get angry at you, and the more I need you to be the one to change. And the less you change, and the more angry I become, and the more dependent I am on you to actually do the changing. So we are in this hostile dependence. The more you do this, the more I feel that, and the more I do that, the more you feel this. So it's a fantastic dance that partners do.

• 24:51Dan Harris?

  That is such an incredible term, and a hostile dependency.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 24:57Dan Harris?

  It can be true in romantic relationships, parent-child, business, colleagues.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  All of them, because our tendency is to think that the change has to come often from the other side, and that the cause of the misery is created by the other side. So I need you to do something different and change. And that needing you means I depend on you, but you're not necessarily responding to my request. So I get pissed, and the more I get pissed, the more I need you. Once you know the term, you're gonna watch it and see it in many places then.

• 25:32Dan Harris?

  So my point in bringing and steering us into talking about some of the many difficulties of interpersonal relationships was not to discourage people, but I think people often do get discouraged by the fact that interpersonal work is hard and we're now raising a generation of people who are, you know, and I don't blame the young people for this, I blame myself and my generation for this, for raising these kids without a lot of interpersonal skills. Then they go to a party, they feel anxious and they decide, well, I'm never going to go to a party again. And, you know, I think this is true for young people and plenty of people who are not young. I'm trying to get us back to this fundamental truth that even though it is difficult often to deal with other people, we do need other

• 26:16Dan Harris?

  people, whether we're an introvert or an extrovert, in order to do this life successfully.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  But, you know, it's become in vogue to say that it's difficult to be with people. But if we switched it around on a cultural basis, and we said it's actually really difficult to be so alone, to have no best friends, to not have dates, to be single for life, to talk to a bot in order to make us feel better. And if we switch the dominant narrative, and we actually said, it's being alone that is really challenging. Being with people, you know, it's not simple, but it's not that it's that constantly difficult. I think we would create a different reality. You know, language shapes the experience. At

• 27:06Speaker 03

  this moment, partly because of the isolation that we have experienced through the pandemic, partly because we are, you know, talking in our phones the whole day. There's a ton of reasons why we are out of practice and why we are socially atrophied and we are being de-skilled in our human interactions. But I think that us, we should not start from the premise that being with people or relationships are painful, depleting, you know, sucking you dry. I think we have to start from the other side. Otherwise, we collude with something. Societies have had relationships forever. Yes, they're messy. They're messy. That is true. They're not perfect. They involve a ton of friction.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Friction is a word that I like a lot, especially if I talk about eroticism. But they are as important as food. And people have the ability of say, there is nutritious food, delicious food, fast food, healthy food. You know, we make distinctions. When we say relationships are difficult, some relationships are really depleting. Some relationships are the meaning, some, some, some. And some relationships are the complete opposite. And I think we have to not use the word relationships. We have to be more discerning, the same way that we would do with food and other things. It'll help us on a societal level.

• 28:29Dan Harris?

  I agree with you completely. There was a guest on this show, Ingrid Clayton, recently, who said, wounding happens in relationship, but healing happens in relationship.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  That's correct. That's correct.

• 28:40Dan Harris?

  So if we're looking to get more eroticism in our lives, I think it might be worth talking about how exactly to do that. One of the things that you recommend is a kind of gentle self-audit to get a sense of like what lights you up.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Because we have relationships with others, but we also have relationships with different parts of ourselves. So we live in relationships. People think that because you don't see other people, you don't have relationships. Oh, yes, you do. You have plenty of relationships with the parts of you that live inside of you, with the various things that you have internalized over your life. So you are continuously in a relational system. That, I think, needs to be really established. Now, I ask people, when's the last time you felt alive? And it's really a very broad swath of experiences that people talk about. I was at sea and I suddenly kind of was swimming and I wasn't thinking anymore.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  I was just in this vast openness.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  Climbed a mountain, I crafted my first pottery. I mean, it's, it covers the range. I was at a soccer game and we just cheered the thing and I felt completely identified with my team, etc. It's really beautiful as a question, actually. When's the last time you felt alive? You know, sometimes it's when I was holding my baby in my hands. I mean, it's very broad. And so what lights you up is that question. It doesn't mean what excites you. It doesn't mean what gives you butterflies in your stomach. It's actually often very subtle. It's very, it's not big things.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  And, and I like it because it challenges us from this kind of, you know, big bang.

• 30:29Dan Harris?

  I have a very close friend, a fellow Belgian like you. Her name is Dahlia and Dahlia's family and my family are very close. And we were out to dinner recently and Dahlia snapped a picture of me talking to her husband, who's one of my best friends, and their son. And I just had this, I was in the midst of this huge laugh. And she sent me the picture and I was like, oh yeah, this is me feeling alive. This is what happens when you're with people you love.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  I mean, and laughter, laughter is such a state of abandon. When you're in the middle of a laughter, unless you're being jolted out of it by something massively, you know, surprising or scaring or disruptive, you are lost for a minute. You're, you're in it. I love to go to, to see plays and life shows where people laugh. It's probably one of the most difficult things, right? To make people laugh. I've had a number of conversations with Trevor Noah about that, you know? What is the role of humor? I think humor is another dimension of aliveness because humor gives you perspective, right? Humor gives you control over a situation and allows you to change its meaning and its impact.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  And that too is the Berger's theory on laughter is also very important. So there's a lot of things that make us feel alive. That's what I often am trying to engage with. People putting their hands in the earth, digging. Children dig, you know, they dig holes wherever they can. That is also alive. You encounter other creatures. By the way, I think the relationship is very important to add is really not just with the people. It's beyond the human. We call it beyond human and it involves primarily nature and art and technology even too. But it is really beyond human.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  I think the most important piece is to say that healing or connection is relational and that it's the relational dimension of our lives that is essential. Then we can look at what is it that you are relating to? Where do your relationships flourish and exist? People is a central pole and it's extremely important, but it is not the only one. People lying in nature, it can have an effect on them that is calming, soothing, healing, more than people. So I think what's beautiful about your question is that it's broad actually. And that joins your introverts too. If it's not people for you, what is it?

• 33:08Speaker 03

  What is the place that lights you up? What is the place that you experience connection? What is the place that opens possibilities or helps you close those that need closure? It goes in both directions. It's life and death.

• 33:24Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Esther talks about how rituals help us navigate beginnings, endings, and transitions, simple ways to create connection and community in your actual life, and why belonging includes responsibility, not just acceptance.

• 33:41Speaker 02

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• 34:14Speaker 03

  There's another word we haven't used that is essential to this conversation. It's rituals. Rituals is what every civilization has created in order to help us with the beginnings, the endings, and the transitions. Transitions from morning to night, transitions from holy to secular, transitions, you know, from healthy to not well. And rituals are these symbolic situations. They are habits that are invested with creativity and intention. And so they are highly staged. They are repetitious. They find their power and their meaning by the sheer repetition over centuries

• 34:57Speaker 03

  by people who have no idea how this came into being. And then they morph, they transform, they take on new pieces. Who knows what it once looked like? And sometimes it's called an ancient ritual because it actually didn't really change much. But rituals is essential in the relationship to the erotic.

• 35:16Dan Harris?

  That's a really interesting insight. I would imagine there are some people listening who don't have a lot of ritual in their lives. I think I'd probably put myself in that category. Like, how do we even begin to think about creating and then keeping up rituals?

• 35:32Speaker 03

  I would start with morning and evening. What's something that you would do at night? That acknowledges your day? That acknowledges the fact that you're going to sleep in your own bed? That you have a bed? That it's warm? Especially now, we are in a New York winter. That maybe there's someone lying next to you in bed? Maybe there's people lying in another room in your house? Is it about turning off the lights? Is it about going and visiting all the people that are sleeping there? Is it about calling someone? I have a friend who basically, I said, "What?" He's a major person in tech. And I says, "What do you do?" He says, "Every day, I call one person." Before the day is over, just to check in on them.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  And that's a beautiful ritual. Morning is the same. When you wake up, instead of just grabbing your phone and, you know, your desk is right as you come out of bed. You know, what's a ritual that basically slows you down? Grounds you in the moment? Lets you remember, "This is a day." That doesn't start by going to the doctor. "This is a day where you are warm." "This is a day where you're gonna drink your tea, coffee, whatever you like in the morning." And you take a moment to acknowledge that. You can acknowledge it. You know, some people pray. I mean, that's part of what religion has given us, is this ability to do the prayers of the morning and the prayers of the night. For some people, it's prayers they create themselves.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  And I'm not talking about the way you take your coffee, because that's a habit. A ritual is a habit that is imbued with creativity and intention. So, the intention is what gives it a symbolic meaning that is bigger than just the gesture. If, every day, the same cup of coffee that you make, you take one with you and you go to give it to a homeless person, it's not the fact that you give it to the homeless person. It's that when you give it to the homeless person, you are also thinking, "And I am not that person. I'm not on the street. I'm not destitute. I have more, and therefore, I share." That's what makes it a ritual. Not the giving of the coffee.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  And it's the interpretation of it. I think candles have been a majorly important element of rituals. Candles, you know, have to do with memory and memorization. Candles have to do with celebration. Candles have to do with mourning and grief. I mean, what you will notice is that often in the ritual, the same rituals can be used on the on and on the off, on the beginnings and on the endings. You know, many people bless, they bless the person next to them. Often it's children. Can be a blessing that you receive from your religion, can be your own blessing. Because when you bless, you really are saying this is not for granted.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  This is not a given, that this is gonna be here always, anytime. So I acknowledge its fragility. I acknowledge that there is no love without the fear of loss. That's what the ritual says. So you can do rituals alone, you can do them in a famille, together. That's why when people sit, they often first bless the food. I mean, it's endless, it's endless, you know? The importance of ritual and the fact that we have lost a lot of them. We are lacking rituals at this moment.

• 38:58Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  Transitional rituals, developmental rituals, we're really lacking. Bruce Feiler has just written another book and his subject is rituals. And I think it's a super important dimension of life. At the end of the week is a ritual. Sunday morning is ritual, whichever way, but you know, somebody understood that after days of work, there needs to be a day of rest. And it's been adopted by all the monotheistic religions. Whichever version you do, stop. Stop one day or one moment in your week from doing to being, from producing to reaping and to reflecting.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  That is a super important moment because we have had rituals to regulate time and space. Right now, given that we are 24/7 attached to our devices, there is no separation of time. And if we work at home and all our roles are actually executed in one chair and it's the same one all the time, we no longer have demarcation and delineation. So we are getting extremely confused. And rituals help us with these demarcations.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Is that enough examples, or you want more?

• 40:12Dan Harris?

  No, it's great. Just to say about Bruce Feiler, who's been on this show many times. I actually just got an email from him yesterday about his new book on rituals. So I suspect he'll be back on this show soon. But Esther, before we lose you, there's a big thing I want to talk to you about, which is, at times in this conversation, you and I have talked about the importance of, you know, having contact with other people as, you know, part of what we understand to be eroticism. And a lot of people, when I go out and talk about the importance of community, will say, "Well, how do you do it? I don't know that many people," or "I just moved to a new place." You actually have a lot of thoughts about how we can create community.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  I often don't respond twice the same way. But, you know, you arrive to a new place, if you are by yourself, I think the coffee shop. But the coffee shop has now become another place where people sit with their laptops, so they don't look up anymore. So then you have to catch them when they're in line, because there they often are waiting to be served, so their eyes are up and so they can actually see you. And then it starts with small talk, which I think is extremely important, you know? "What do you order here every day? Do you have the same order every morning?" Or "This looks really delicious." Or "I really like what you wear." Or something that makes a person smile, you know? And that in itself makes us feel a lot better.

• 41:42Speaker 03

  From that moment, there is the "Will I see you here tomorrow? Are you here every day?" It's these small, micro moments that are beyond important. Everybody knows that pets and children, small children in particular, are amazing ambassadors for connection. People walk their dogs, they talk to each other. They want to know about the dogs, they want to know about the relationship, et cetera. People have young children, it instantly puts a ready-made community in front of you. You have interests. At this moment, you see, there's a proliferation of small, social Communities from Mahjong to paddle to pickle.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  People are coming together to play. You don't have to go to talk necessarily. Hmm. You you know, go to Central Park here in New York. If you don't know anybody, bring your little paddle and start playing with people. You will then come back and you will see some people again. And there is such a welcoming attitude. If it's rock climbing, it's another thing. I mean, honestly, I think meeting people through something that you like to do that is important. Whether it's writing, drawing, book clubs, I mean, we are at this moment really fully invested in creating small group experiences. It you see it everywhere.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  So that's one. Now, you know, in New York, where I live often, I ask people, when's the last time you had someone in your house? Or in your, because I wanna know, is it a house or a home? Hmm. Is it a place where you put your your stuff? Or is it actually a home? And then I say, look, ju- just invite someone. I want you within the next week to invite somebody to come to your home. Someone even you've wanted to get to know more. Doesn't have to be someone you already know. Someone you're just curious about, that you think you you could have a nice chat with. Or that you wanna share, whatever, your music, whatever you wanna do. Then you say to that person, how about you bring someone and I bring someone? Or you bring two and I bring two.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  And we just do breakfast together and we cook it together. It does, these things do not have to cost much. We each bring a small something. Each person bringing someone new is the way that you really build the village. I think it's it's one of the most fruitful and easy ways to do. But you have to be able to A, say, I want to invite you. B, potentially be told, no, I'm not that interested. It's okay. It's not a massive rejection. It's just somebody who may not be interested or for a host of reasons, we won't get into. And three, go back to the next person. Work used to be an amazing place for that. I really think that.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  For many people, the the working from home is uh is really deleterious in terms of the cultivation of social circles, rituals of after work, drinks together and all of that stuff that you have to go seek it now. It's not structural in your everyday life and that demands initiative and confidence and less anxiety and all these things that we are overly focused on that we think prevent us from creating community. I think religious communities are essential. It's the holiday. There are plenty of houses of worship of every kind under the sun where you come together with other people and you reflect on life and it's warm and all

• 45:13Speaker 03

  of that. You don't necessarily have to interact always with the people. You can be sharing an event with the people. Life concert is another major one. I mean, if I make a list, there are lots of things. There's actually a long list. And here is what people tell me is that it's not that people don't know what to do, is that they're losing the energy, the erotic energy, really the life force to actually reach out and do this. You know, they have to be really despairing. And none of these things you can optimize. None of these things can be put into numbers. They give you meaning. They give you a sense that if you wake up, it matters to somebody else,

• 45:55Speaker 03

  which is essential to us. We are creatures of meaning. If I get up and it doesn't make a dent, if I'm around or not and nobody cares, I'm gonna really lose my taste for living. Was I consistent or did I?

• 46:11Dan Harris?

  Very consistent and you added things that were not on my list.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Thank you.

• 46:15Dan Harris?

  I would add one thing which is volunteering. I feel like a common denominator coursing underneath many of your suggestions here is a kind of courage that can be hard to muster, especially if you've been sapped of your vitality by modern life.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  I think that that's the atrophy that I'm talking about. You know, if I'm going to talk 20 times a day to a bot or to chat GPT and ask questions and ask advice, etc., that's 20 times a day I'm not reaching out to people. If I have a predictive technology in my hand that tells me where to go, what to eat, what to listen to, what to watch, et cetera, I am not going to discover much on my own and I'm going to lose the muscle for experimentation and discovery and serendipity and the unknown. And I'm going to become more and more anxious about anything that breeds uncertainty, even though uncertainty is kind of the synonym of living.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  So you are right. It is a strange thing to hear someone say today, reaching out to people is become an act of courage. That is a sad statement about us. And the rest of the world doesn't live like that, by the way. We need to remember that. This is not universal. But to think that reaching out, you know, connecting with people is courage, is very reflective of what has happened to us. And you're not the only one who says it like that.

• 47:43Dan Harris?

  You launched a Substack recently called Entre Nous and you and I were doing a Substack live and you made a point that I feel like coming back to and it's related to how we are with other people that, and I don't know if I'm going to be able to recapitulate this accurately, but we think in our culture about what we deserve and, you know, self-affirmation and standing up for ourselves. But there's a certain amount of responsibility that we have to other people that we sometimes forget about. Am I making sense here?

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Entre nous, which in English is between us, is by definition relational.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  It's between us, I'm going to whisper something. It's between us, you know, we keep it, we trust each other. It's between us, meaning it relates to each of us. It's very much a relational term. And I have created, because I am concerned about the challenge of dealing with the messiness and the friction of relationships, I created the card game, where should we begin? I created the podcast, I created the Substack. I am constantly thinking, how do I bring people to stay connected to other people without thinking that it's an act of courage, actually? But... We are in a society, particularly here, that is highly individualistic,

• 49:09Speaker 03

  that really created this notion that autonomy, self-reliance, independence, separateness is really the norm. It's a sign of strength and resilience and all of that. And I want to say that, in fact, relying on others, asking for help, offering help to others, asking others, "What do I need to do? What am I responsible for?" Translating the term "belonging", not just from the point of view of "I'm accepted, I am seen, I am welcomed", no, no, belonging in every group has always meant, "And I follow those rules, and these are my assignments, and this is my responsibility",

• 49:53Speaker 03

  and in order to belong to a group, it's a dyadic relationship. The fact that we have taken the word "belonging" and turned it into, you know, appeasement to the self is another one of these crazy transformations in the relational field, like the courage one. No, belonging has always been a combination of acceptance and duty, obligation, responsibility. Many groups still do it, but when you talk about, you know, "I want to feel a sense of belonging", it's a one-way street at this moment. So I think that there has been such an emphasis on the self that it disregards the relational dimension of what we owe others,

• 50:36Speaker 03

  it emphasizes what happened to us, it puts a high focus on our own traumas, and it often leaves us able to pass next to others that have deep needs from us that we don't think we are responsible to address. So that's where your volunteerism comes in, because giving is receiving. When you give to others, you receive something back, not from them, from the act itself. So I've been involved with organ donation in the last few years, and it's really been interesting to watch that, what does it mean to give a part of oneself to someone? And how do people experience this gift as something that gives them a whole new meaning

• 51:21Speaker 03

  and the gift of life often, right? So it's interesting, this notion of...

• 51:29Speaker 03

  How do we maintain accountability, responsibility? A sense that I have something to offer to the collective? And not just what is the collective doing for me? And I think that part of this individualism that has been so glorified has also led to the fact that one in three or one in four Americans currently cut off from their family members. A family member, which is a staggering number. Staggering. Because if it doesn't suit me, if it's hurtful to me, if it's distressing, if it's uncomfortable, if it's all these things, I don't have to. And that is another major development.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  The unraveling of certain relational ties because of how they affect me. Rather than you live with them in life. In collective societies, people, it's not like their relationships are necessarily better. But there's this whole management system in place for dealing with the people you have to see that you don't want to see.

• 52:35Dan Harris?

  Just to be clear, if somebody's a bully or has harmed you in some significant way, I think we can all agree a boundary can be drawn. But I think what you're arguing is that we're too easily cutting people off because they make us uncomfortable.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Yes, but I also would like to redefine the word boundary. Boundary is a dimension of any relational system. Every system, every relationship has boundaries. Poorest boundaries, normal boundaries, impermeable boundaries, thick ones that you can't get in and out of. You know, it's the same as every system. Every relationship has hierarchy and a power dynamic. It's to say every relationship has boundaries. Boundaries is not just an act of self-protection. Boundaries is a clarification of roles. If we had to be together at this holiday coming up, we don't talk about my being gay. We don't talk about my not having kids. We don't talk about the fact that I'm not married. We don't talk about your divorce or my divorce.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  We don't talk about the fact that you made money and I have none. We just, that's the boundary.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  And it's not just self protective. It regulates the relationship. It says, we exist within this framework. Within this framework, we have a ton of different things we can interact upon. So I think it's important to understand that boundary is actually a way to stay in relationship, not a way to cut off a relationship. Ned Ratawan talks about that a lot as well. I agree very much with that view. That doesn't mean you stay in violent situations. But if it's one in three, it's more than just the dire conditions.

• 54:15Dan Harris?

  I feel very responsible to keep an eye on the clock here because

• 54:19Speaker 03

  You should.

• 54:19Dan Harris?

  we are out of time.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  Because I don't.

• 54:22Dan Harris?

  And I want to be respectful of your time. Let me just say in closing, two things. First, everybody listening should check out Esther's new Substack called Entre New. Also, her podcast, Where Should We Begin?, which is also a board game, which you should check out, and her books, State of Affairs and Mating in Captivity, both excellent. And then the second thing I want to say is, thank you. Really appreciate your time. Thank you.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  I always enjoy our conversations. Thank you so much.

• 54:51Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to Esther. Always love talking to her. Don't forget to check out my new app at danharris.com. There's a free 30 day trial if you want to try before you buy. And if you go there today, you can start our free seven day New Year's meditation challenge led by the great Joseph Goldstein. Again, that challenge starts today and it runs through January 11th. DanHarris.com. Check it out. Finally, thank you very, very much to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer.

• 55:34Dan Harris?

  And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 55:40Speaker 05

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