Pete Doherty: “I was seen a wreck head!” The truth behind the headlines

Does anxiety or darkness drive you to create? Is creativity the ultimate catharsis? For musician Pete Doherty making art has, at times, been a matter of survival. In this chat with Fearne, Pete explains why taking drugs was less about trying to escape, and more about what he was trying to find. Now he’s stopped taking drugs, how does he unlock and express his creativity differently? Pete also confirms that ‘addict’ is the right word to describe his behaviour, but that our attitude towards addiction needs to change. Fearne and Pete catch up about the early days of The Libertines, and what Pete labels as ‘the chaos and risk of youth’. He describes how he was sold on the enticing mythologies of a rock n roll lifestyle, but is now much more comfortable living quietly in rural France with his family and dogs. For contributions to #2 of Pete’s ‘On Strap’ fanzine please post to: 'ON STRAP’ FANZINE c/o The Heavy Horse Hôtel le Rayon Vert Rue Général Leclerc 76790 Etretat Normandie FRANCE Pete’s fifth solo studio album, Felt Better Alive, is out May 16th. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: DJ Fat Tony https://pod.fo/e/13d831 Matt Willis https://pod.fo/e/13f638 What Really Happens At Therapy https://pod.fo/e/2a6aaa Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that asks the big questions about what it is to be human. Today, I'm chatting to Pete Doherty.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  There's a kind of innocence and naivety to it, even with the drugs really, which I must have romanticised a lot to myself when I look back at it like that. You get this cloak of this force field where whatever it is you're thinking and concentrating on, you're supercharged. But it wasn't the be all and end all. You know what I mean? I was quite cautious really, even though in those later days where I was seen as like this wreckhead, reckless. It was never like that at first. You know, I was very wary and, you know, this is like unfamiliar terrain and it was always done in like a sacred way.

• 1:10Fearne Cotton?

  How are you lovely people? I am, my energy is low. I am tired at the moment. Do you know what it is? I'm waking up at like five every morning. I don't know, I don't know why. Am I meant to be happy about that? Is it like one of those 5am life hack things? I don't know. It's making me feel exhausted. I don't know if it's because it's lighter earlier or option B, I'm turning into my dad. I am now officially Mick Cotton, who I mocked for years for getting up early. I'd say like, "Oh my God, Dad, have a lie in. What's wrong with you?" I'm morphing into my dad. I can't lie in. It's literally impossible and my kids are slightly lying in. They're at that age now.

• 1:53Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm up at five. What is wrong with me? Anyway, I'm sure there'll be some of you nodding along vehemently, saying, me too. I've tried all the sleep hacks before you start telling me to put lavender spray on my pillow. I've tried it all. It's not working. Anyway, we troop on. We have things to do. Mainly, right now, talk about Pete. Pete came into the studio, not on his own, oh no. He brought along his dog Gladys. Gladys, she, my Gladys was a unit. Gladys was so glorious. He brought his dog Gladys in a few weeks ago. He's gearing up to release his fifth solo studio album, Felt Better Alive, in May, so not long now.

• 2:36Fearne Cotton?

  And we were very lucky to get some time with him because he lives in beautiful rural France now. And we chat about the good that that's done him. Gladys was quite frankly, the star of the day. She slept on the rug at our feet the entire time. You might hear her snuffling and certainly snoring because she had a loud snore. We talk about so much. We talk about stopping drinking and eating more healthily because Pete's been very open about his diabetes. We chat a lot about that and that he's actually doing well, thank goodness. We reflect on the early days of the Libertines, which was so exciting for me because I was such a massive Libertines fan. And I was hanging around in all the pubs and bars I were playing in, as was my brother Jamie, who is still a lifelong Libertines fan.

• 3:22Fearne Cotton?

  So it was lovely to sort of reminisce about those days. We also talk about why he took drugs. I think we've still got such a problem with how we view people that have addiction problems. And actually, when you really root into why someone's walked down that path, it is so interesting. I'm very curious about that. So we talk about it a lot. Pete also brought a whole notebook, a fanzine of his writing with him. He's been typing it on an actual typewriter. And he read a lot of lovely poems in there, as well as a, how do I describe this hilariously chaotic short story? And let's just say, if you're squeamish, prepare yourself.

• 4:04Speaker 03

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• 4:35Speaker 04

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• 5:16Speaker 04

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• 5:32Speaker 05

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• 5:59Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:23Fearne Cotton?

  Hello Pete.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 6:25Fearne Cotton?

  You're good.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  I'm alright, yeah, I'm alright. I've got a bit of a feet thing going at the moment, diabetes toes. So the toes went really wrong. They went all, this is not, this is not very chic, but they went all black. And then they were gonna have to come off. So I had to amend my diet and stop drinking. And yeah, they're kind of on the mend now.

• 6:47Fearne Cotton?

  That's good.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  But in the meantime, I have to wear the orthopedic shoes.

• 6:50Fearne Cotton?

  But if anyone's gonna make them look cool, it's you.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  I don't know. I can see it in behind their eyes when they say, oh no, they're alright. When actually they just say, Pete, you look like a right dildo in your orthopedic shoes.

• 7:03Fearne Cotton?

  But you've gone for really good socks. So I think that's what you've got to focus on now is socks.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, little victories, yeah.

• 7:09Fearne Cotton?

  But that's really good. So your, so your diet.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Apart from that.

• 7:11Fearne Cotton?

  You're good.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Because I have to wash the toes. I'm alright, I'm good.

• 7:15Fearne Cotton?

  How's it not drinking?

• 7:19Speaker 02

  It's alright. It's easier than I found it in the past.

• 7:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm, I'm letting myself have a drink once in a while, like once every 10 days. But something has shifted in me, that, that need, just that, that way I was before. It was just an integral part of everything. It's faded a bit now. I don't know. Something has, has switched where it's just easier not to do it.

• 7:44Fearne Cotton?

  Is that because you're feeling content?

• 7:47Speaker 02

  I've got a young baby at the moment as well, which is like, it's a 24/7 thing as well. And you just, you can't be munted really. It's not.

• 7:55Fearne Cotton?

  You can't. It's not fun.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  It's not fair, no.

• 7:57Fearne Cotton?

  It's also not fun when you're hungover, dealing with any age of child. It's just not fun.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So just being there and alert for her. I am, there's, there's, yeah, I am content in some ways. Like that domestic, quite quiet really. We live in the, in the sticks in the country. Dogs and the baby and then obviously I have bursts of madness, you know, go on the road and do the shows with the Libertines or my own. But yeah, there seems to be a good pattern and it seems to be in a good place.

• 8:30Fearne Cotton?

  That's so good to hear. I mean, we've got one of your dogs Gladys here with us today, who is so gorgeous. Look at her, honey coloured babe. And you've come over from France where you're living at the moment. You were meant to bring two dogs, you've got one here.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  We got stopped at the border, me and my wife and the babbie Gladys and Zeus is the other dog. And there was a, there's so many moving parts now, I say I'm not going to just blame Brexit, but it's so difficult now to get across the border and keeping on top of all the vaccines and I won't go into detail, maybe I will. So if you have the rabies vaccine in consecutive years on the same day, you don't have to have it for another five years. And we were a couple of days out from having it on the same day, two years in a row.

• 9:14Fearne Cotton?

  What nonsensical madness.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Sort of. But then they said to us, we had a proper row with the lady, she said that people abandon their dogs. So we had to prove, they wouldn't let us even go through. They had to prove that the dog wasn't being abandoned because apparently people when they're told they can't take the dog through, a lot of them just leave it on the motorway.

• 9:33Fearne Cotton?

  Leave their dog? Who are these people?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  No, it's seeing people that abandon their kids or, but I don't know, abandon hope. It's, it's just what happens, isn't it?

• 9:42Fearne Cotton?

  That's outrageous.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  But I said to her, I said, oh, that never occurred to me. What a good idea. But she didn't see the funny side of that.

• 9:47Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  So it was all a bit upsetting that. I had to leave my wife, baby and Zeus. So she's, she's getting her like a train, but.

• 9:57Fearne Cotton?

  We've got Gladys.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Gladys is here, yeah.

• 9:59Fearne Cotton?

  There is something so calming about having a dog or any animal around when having a conversation with someone. There's something, there's something energetic about it, which is just lovely. I feel instantly calm having Gladys in the room. I'm glad you brought Gladys.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  I did say that. It was since I've started taking her on the road as well. Well, because when I play acoustic shows, she just sits on stage. It's not like with the Libertines where, you know, I mean, it's, it's lots of noise and she doesn't like it so much. So venues that I've played for years where I've never really clicked with, say, I don't know, the local sound engineer, all of a sudden. You're breaking down barriers just because, you know, this sound engineer who's always been like a grumpy asshole is suddenly like rolling around the floor with Gladys. You know what I mean?

• 10:41Fearne Cotton?

  It's so lovely.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  How much she hates people but loves dogs and then.

• 10:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  And then he sees, for some reason, he sees me different like that. And then I get a good, good sound for the first time.

• 10:50Fearne Cotton?

  How nice.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  The Middlesbrough town hall. Wasn't the Middlesbrough town hall, but yeah.

• 10:54Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not going to pinpoint any individuals here. Um, we're just going to leave Gladys sort of slightly lightly snoring there. She can just chill out and relax while we're chatting.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Is that her or is that your?

• 11:03Fearne Cotton?

  No, like that. See, she's just snoring.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, yeah, yeah, that'll get louder and louder as well.

• 11:09Fearne Cotton?

  So lovely. It's making me feel sleepy. It's funny because I don't know.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  And how are you?

• 11:13Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really good. I don't know if we've ever properly had a chat, which is so strange because we were a similar age. When the Libertines broke onto the scene, I was very in the mix of that world. I was hanging out in Camden the whole time. I was doing radio in Top of the Pops and I loved seeing you guys live. I saw you tons of times back in the day. I went to, I definitely remember one gig where, you know, infamously you guys would be late. And I think I waited three hours in a venue.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Traffic.

• 11:42Fearne Cotton?

  Traffic, probably traffic, um, for you guys to come on. And then when you would, it would just be the whole room was at fever pitch, waiting for you to get on the stage. And so it's lovely to now sort of see you all these years down the line and all the different iterations of your music and, and what you've done with your art. It's, um, it feels like a really good time to talk to you about all of it. I mean, when you look back on those days where, I mean, you, you guys were.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Did you cite Queen, Queens of Noise era?

• 12:09Fearne Cotton?

  I love them. I actually copied Marade's hair and dyed it black with a white bit at the front because I was obsessed with her.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:16Fearne Cotton?

  And Tabitha, they were the coolest people. And Tom Frog, like all of that gang.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  I was so in love, so in love with Tabitha, don't know what I'm actually, yeah. Yeah.

• 12:26Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, they were the coolest people ever. I wanted to be even, you know, a centimeter as cool as them. I certainly wasn't, but I loved that whole era of music just felt electrifying. And there were so many brilliant artists around and bands doing really different things. Like it was a whole new sound and a whole new scene. And you were everywhere, being dragged from pillar to post. It was obviously a time of great excess and pleasure seeking and chaos. When you look back on that era, what do you feel?

• 12:56Speaker 02

  I don't really see it as, when I look back, I'm not being, trying to be contrary. I don't really see things in terms of, because it's quite chaotic in my mind as well as a memory. I don't see it in terms of years or, but sometimes I'll see a photograph or hear a snatch of song. And I'll feel exactly what I felt then, really, which is just, I suppose, just the rush and madness of youth and being young and just full of like dance moves, even crap ones and energy and lust to see everything, do everything and write and write and write. And this weird need we had to, well, I had to share it all, you know what I mean? To share it all in

• 13:38Speaker 02

  song. And I mean, thank God there was no social media back then, do you know what I mean? Yeah, it was just song lyrics. That was really the only way to really put it out there. I don't, I suppose I feel a kind of joy and trying to work out my mind what really happened and what didn't. And yeah, man, it's just this collage of, do you know what I mean? I could just like Tabitha and Marry just do this weird stage diving thing where, you know, like the dance where you hold your nose and go like that. That's what I think it's dance. They'd jump off the stage doing that, you know what I mean? Even if there's no one to dive into. So when we were doing the really small gigs in pubs and they'd be throwing themselves around and then, you know, over quite a short space of time, months, a year, we were playing in bigger places, you know, Kennington Forum, the Brixton

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Academy, and they'd be doing it there, you know what I mean? And I was with my mates, with Carl and John and other mates in bands, all in the melee, just chasing our dreams, realising our dreams sometimes. Yeah, good old knees up, really.

• 14:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  I mean, there's all this, there is quite, it's quite a heavy tragedy. Interlaced with it all, you know what I mean? But probably like all the best fairy stories, you need those

• 14:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Those moments of drama and.

• 14:53Fearne Cotton?

  Things are very rarely two dimensional, they're very rarely one thing.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  I think we were pretty, I think we were pretty messed up. And in many ways, then, you know, they've got proper definitions for it now, but there's a lot of sadness and anger in the songs. But for those brief moments, we were able to feel free and and fulfilled, you know what I mean? That's what, that's what being a band gave us, you know what I mean? I see it now a little bit when I see Fontaine's D C.

• 15:24Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Videos, I don't really know them, I've met them once or twice, but I get the sense that they're pretty fucked up, I mean, they're pretty messed up, but they have these concentrated moments of joy and bringing people together with their music, you know what I mean? So you just sort of cross your fingers and hope that the roller coaster stays on track. But I suppose that's what it's like for all young people, isn't it, you know? Unless you're, I don't know, unless you're secure in yourself and you've got an old head on young shoulders, you take risks and chances. And now I'm really just babbling, I'm like, oh, you're blasting.

• 15:58Fearne Cotton?

  No, not at all, I mean, but this is, but it was, it was the most indescribable time almost. Because like you say, there was all this joy, but there was also utter chaos as well, and a lot of it, you're inciting it. And I don't know if that was conscious or it was just an expression of how you guys were feeling or what you wanted an audience to feel. But of course, that extended offstage as well. And, you know, it was very well documented that you were taking a lot of hard drugs at the time and that was extremely excessive. When you look back on that era, and especially the drug taking, can you get to the root of what that was? Was it purely fun and liberation? Or was, were you trying to escape something, escape your own mind? Or, I don't know, trying to get out of your own head to just be as free as possible?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  I've always been very curious about drugs. I'd let, I mean, I'd been very, not cosseted, but a very disciplined upbringing and army barracks and that. And, you know, this, this world of drugs and being a band, it was so alien. It's so, yeah, she said.

• 17:00Fearne Cotton?

  Gladys, she's like, fucking hell.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  It was so alien to me, you know what I mean? This kid in army barracks, reading the N M E and sort of picking up a guitar for the first time. And this idea, this.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Mythologizing, the self-mythologizing thing I I started at that age. I just had to fulfill it and I think I was sold. I was sold hook, line and sinker on all the mythologies on everything, you know. From the, from how you had to look to how you had to live and how you had to walk and. Which which I can understand to a lot of people seems, well, there is a superficiality to it and a. Oh, we'll leave it at that. A super, it was her belly. A super, a superficiality to the dog's bowels, um, but, but for me. Had to, it just turned me on. I was just like. It was like, uh. You know, some fellow in pointed boots with bells on playing his pipe down the cobble streets of Hamelin.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  And I was this little kid saying, what is that sound? I've got to follow it. And do whatever it tells me to do. And it turned out it was Pan and he was going to Arcadia and. Wasn't really, I didn't want to dwell too much on what I was trying to escape. It was more about what I was going to see and what I was going to feel and. I think I thought a lot, probably too much about. The world around me and history and society and class and. And I dabbled in, in trying to, you know, attend things and and listen to people and I couldn't really get. Anything from it with music. And poetry and film, I got so much back, you know what I mean? And in those moments, yeah, I did feel free.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  But thought a lot, I just, it was, it was, it was, it was my world. I longed to be part of it and I longed to be in a band. And create a band and go on a magic journey, you know? I was brought up on like, but you know, bed knobs and broomsticks and Mary Poppins and, uh. You know, in all those Disney films, Robin Hood and Jungle Book where. You go off, maybe you go off into a dark world, but it all comes shining through and you all come like. Singing, singing out of the shadows in a massive joyous chorus. You know what I mean? With all the animals and plants joining in and. And it all turns out well, you know what I mean? And you fight the good fight and you're fighting for the right side, you know what I mean? There's a kind of innocence and naivety to it, even with the drugs really, which I must

• 19:24Speaker 02

  have romanticised a lot to myself when I look back at it like that.

• 19:29Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you said specifically with heroin, it's sort of unlocked a door to another plane, a portal that you were getting a lot from creatively and I'm sure just imagination wise, you know, you're stepping into a new realm. Is that something, you know, because there's the ritual of the drug taking, there's the escapism, the liberation, but if you're using it to drive creativity, do you miss that? Can you recreate that without drugs?

• 19:56Speaker 02

  I felt like I was never, I mean, you know, I liked to kick a football about and I liked, I liked, I was quite a good runner, but I was never like a super good athlete, do you know what I mean? Probably like my dad would have wanted. If I could have been able to, you know, do backflips and frontflips, I probably would have done. And I imagine that's the same sort of feeling that you get. I think I was, I found myself able to feel things and adjust to the world and balance myself like mentally and creatively in a way that I couldn't before. So my mind would adapt. So, you know, you take these things and I found my mind was suddenly in a different state of balance where I was

• 20:39Speaker 02

  able to receive and experience things like sensually, colours, sounds, and I was able to handle it, you know what I mean? It was, I felt like I was able to walk that tightrope, you know, physically, I could never walk a tightrope, but yeah, psychotrope, I felt I was starting to find myself like in a really interesting place, you know what I mean? I could just stand for hours on the flyover at Easton, watching the traffic with my little notebook and get lost in the moment, you know, and just wander off through London, you know, with my book and my guitar and write and dream. And the drugs never detracted

• 21:20Speaker 02

  from that. And if anything, they were the thing that was, you know, keeping me up. I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of hours with drugs, you know what I mean? There's a lot of, a lot of hours, you know, you've got a lot of time and you get this cloak. You get this cloak of this force field where whatever it is you're thinking or concentrating on, you're supercharged on it, you know what I mean? But it wasn't the be all and end all, you know what I mean? I was quite cautious, really, even though like in those later days where I was seen as like this wrecked head and reckless. It was never like that at first, you know, I was very wary and you know, this is like unfamiliar terrain. So it wasn't exactly microdosing, but it kind, it kind of was in its way, you know what I mean? It was like dipping my toe in, making sure it was all right.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And it was always done in like a sacred way for me, you know?

• 22:13Speaker 03

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• 23:12Speaker 07

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• 23:53Speaker 04

  Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households. Yet, many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep theirs.

• 24:35Speaker 04

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• 24:54Fearne Cotton?

  So when do you think it became a problem? Or you were cognizant of it being a problem?

• 24:58Speaker 02

  I think the body, the body just tells you, doesn't it? You know what I mean? The body tells you that you've over-tipped the scales, that you're not balanced anymore. You know what I mean? I mean, a lot of people like that, and they never come back. You know what I mean? You watch them go one by one. So that, physically, over time, your body just can't take it. Your veins, your skin, you just, you kill yourself. And with my family, and people I was close to, Kyle, and different relationships, my mom and dad, it was just created this immediate barrier where they just couldn't be dealing with it, couldn't be asked with it. And that, so that became impossible to balance.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  And then I just had to make the decision, right, okay, now I have to go in all in then. And then, and you enter different realms, you know, you're to prison and crack houses and a whole different, a whole different circle of friends, a whole different neighborhood. I don't know, I mean, it wasn't, for me, looking back, it was not the be-all and end-all of everything. But now, like then, really, I'm just quite interested in the subject. You know what I mean? Sometimes for me, just having the drug in my pocket was, you know, like the Ritalin and the endless murders you go through sometimes, trying to get hold of the stuff.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Sometimes that ended up being more interesting than than actually taking a drug. I don't know if that's daft.

• 26:25Fearne Cotton?

  I think I think it's a really um positive thing to be in a place with any situation that might have been troubling to you or something that you know has caused you issues, whether it's relationships or your body or whatever it might be, mental health, where you can be interested and curious in it rather than drowning in the aftershock of it.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 26:47Fearne Cotton?

  That's where I feel I'm definitely at with certain things at this age, this point. I'm curious about it rather than, oh, my God, this is so terrible, so awful, this happened or so awful, this in the past, I'm interested, I'm interested in all of it. I think that's a really brilliant place to be.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  I think because I've been told that I'm an addict, you know, you get told time and time again in in in these different treatment centres that that you've got a condition, you've got an illness called addiction where you can't, in the end, you can't just do it recreationally, you can't, you know, do it once in a while. So coming to terms with that was a bit of a shock to the system and that's taken me a while, really.

• 27:30Fearne Cotton?

  And do you feel like that label is appropriate to you now then? Because I'm sure it felt maybe misaligned before if you weren't buying into it.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's it's it's spot on. I don't, you know, I'm not a doctor, but if if addiction is a mental disease, which probably, you know, probably in 50 years, that's where it will be seen.

• 27:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  They won't, they won't be locking people up.

• 27:48Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  You know, if a smoke crack, they'll be, I don't know, it's quite a complicated subject, isn't it?

• 27:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  But I think it's an illness, the need to do that to yourself, knowing the destruction you're causing and still sacrifice everything for it.

• 28:04Fearne Cotton?

  So so since you've made that decision that, you know, and I'm sure, I think I've heard you say before, your wife was pretty instrumental in giving you somewhat of an ultimatum to make these decisions and to get clarity with that. What has that been like? Because if it was, even if it wasn't the be all and end all, it was obviously hugely wrapped up in your art, who you were, your personality that you were, you know, expressing to the public eye. What's that been like, losing that part of your lifestyle and your, the rituals in your day and your life?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  This is my, with, with me and Katia, it's, it's just evolved over time, our relationship. And the closer we've got and the more time we spend together, the, the less I've needed to do it. I think when I was on my own more, you know, like when we were just friends or, or before, before we were living together. I could, I could see her and then go off and do my thing for a bit. And I think the more we were together and she didn't use, you know what I mean? And I've sort of just sort of somehow learnt to live without it, like reluctantly for a long time, you know? And just, yeah, well, she just, I think she just got to the point where we were in love and I, I'm in love with her.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  And she pretended out, she preferred me not on the drugs.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  And I preferred it when, when she liked me, you know what I mean? And we'll try and build a life together, you know?

• 29:33Fearne Cotton?

  Were there moments of, and this is, you know, obviously prevalent for all of us in different ways. And we'll have different things that will trigger it. But had there been moments over the years, whether you were drug taking or not, of self loathing creeping into play? Where it was either that was, you know, um, brought on because of the drug taking? Or looking back at the past or, I don't know, regrets?

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, self loathing is quite a heavy one. I don't know about that. But, but embarrassment sometimes, uh, and fear.

• 30:06Fearne Cotton?

  I don't self, I don't think self loathing is necessarily, I don't think it directly correlates to the event. Cause I've self loathed over fuck all, like things that people would go, why are you worrying about that? And I have literally just dived into self loathing. I don't think it correlates, I think it's more about, it's just more about you and how you perceive, well, it's your self worth, isn't it?

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:27Fearne Cotton?

  And what, what that derives from, I guess.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd probably like be quite tentative about, think about it too much probably. I had to probably, I've got very little self worth really, when I think about what I've done to myself. I don't know, I weren't ready to think about that, maybe I'll get. You said you see a therapist, like.

• 30:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  I don't think I'm ready to, yeah?

• 30:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's changed my whole life.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Really?

• 30:49Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. And I've done it on, off for years and years and years. But I found someone that I just really have clicked with in the last year. And yeah, I think, especially when looking at self-worth, which I've by no means nailed, I don't think many people have. It's been completely vital in looking at that and, you know, working out who the hell I am outside of the bit that I wanna show people and liking that bit of myself and. It's been really good, really good. Have you ever done it?

• 31:21Speaker 02

  No, not on that like one-to-one level with someone who you've, you see regularly or talk to regularly. I think in the past when I've been in, in treatment centres, normally against my will.

• 31:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  I've, I've clicked with certain people, but I don't really get too much into. It's easy to sort of breezily talk about the past or, you know, anecdotes and, but we're actually getting into analysing myself and talking about someone. I don't think I'm capable of it. I think I'm too, I'm actually too fragile to do that. I think it would take me like, I think I'd just break down. And it'd take me an hour to stop crying, you know what I mean? And then it'd be years to put myself back together from that.

• 32:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:06Fearne Cotton?

  It's doable though. I've done that. I've had a good old cry for hours and hours. Could be good.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got this too, I'm too busy at the moment. There's too many things to, I've got this like, you know, I've got the babby to look after and maybe when she's sixteen or seventeen, I'll have a look at myself. And there's loads of good stuff on the telly as well, you know what I mean? Just like re-watch The Simpsons again and again, rather than like.

• 32:29Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, that's therapy in itself. I think if you're laughing at something, that's, that's therapeutic. Would you say, I mean, we don't have to dive too deeply into this because you've just said that's, you know, it's a big deal. But today, could you say you like yourself?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't, I can't. I find it difficult to talk about myself in the third person like that.

• 32:46Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  To like or not like myself, I don't know how I would go about thinking like that. I don't know.

• 32:55Fearne Cotton?

  I guess I'm intrigued because I think whenever anyone's had their work put out publicly, you know, I think you can start to dig around in how much of that is pure expression. I have to create, I have to make something. And how much of that is I need validation from other people? Do you know that in terms of like the ratio in your own work over the years? How much have you needed other people to say you're fucking great?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  It starts off as something that you don't think about too much. So it's like a burst of writing or songwriting where something's pure and you haven't thought about it, analysed it too much. And then when you start moving into the studio and collaborating or putting things out, then you start worrying more about what other people are going to think. But in its purest form, like I've, so I've done a little fantasy. I don't know if it should be called a fantasy, it's a bit crap to do a fantasy about yourself. But I put a typewriter on the tour bus last year for the Liberty store and I just left it there and got Carl and whoever to write stuff.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Some of the things in there come over like, what's this? So.

• 34:11Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, you've woken up Gladys. Hello babes.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Ah, when I wonder, my mind turns its darker wield. I set the sat nav controls of the soul for the only place you ever called home. The place they couldn't gentrify where the rents don't climb because you can't sublet the mind. It can't evict me from my own memory. A melody is not a felony in the realms of infinity. New and unrushed patterns of progress, carrying jubilation in your once-heavy heart. Welcoming the recognition of addiction as a medical condition, an affliction, not a moral decision to be given, considered compassion, not facing conviction. Anxiety runs like an underground river of society and we're flooding and it's coming like tsunami.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Young minds today can't find their way through the digital wasteland. Social media feeding your frenzy, getting creepier, artificially deeper. The algorithm says you'll go to prison, suffer from the crash course collision, the conviction acts of well-practiced precision. Lock a sick man already in hell in a cell and you think he's gonna get well? You don't need peer-reviewed research to teach us that the system acts like a fist when it could be a healing hand.

• 35:23Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  This is nice. I don't know who wrote this, I don't know if this was Carl or...

• 35:28Fearne Cotton?

  Did you write that last one?

• 35:29Speaker 02

  That last one I did, yeah.

• 35:30Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  I listened to this, so, "To feel a clown in a field of entertainers who paint their face a certain way, to cheers ambiguities and favour a brick that's broken over one that holds the fort. Breaking bird feed, rotten planks and other vicious, various items of crap. To look at receding hairlines with impulse, to slobber over gleaming yellow teeth and muddy trousers, embracing him there, down a bit, to the left of the table, looking disgusted at the sun for being so warm. Attempting all you can at flattery to win over the cockroaches in your mortar. Aligning your best suit, stupidest shoes and worst shirt in harmony, not being able to quite reach the bit needed, to disguise the fact you can't grow a beard.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Splash aftershave enough, you're already itchy. A corduroy sofa left for collection, that might be okay after a thorough boil."

• 36:26Speaker 02

  F B autocorrected to fat bastard as a term of endearment. That's fucking great. I love that.

• 36:31Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  That's darkness, man. About the beard as well, that was that.

• 36:35Fearne Cotton?

  I lo- I love this because it's, I mean, again, I believe writing is a therapy of sorts and something that we can all do. We can all wake up and we can just write down what's going on in our heads, whether it's poetry or just something that is spinning around our minds. It's really therapeutic to do that.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  And I love, I love reading, I love reading poetry, but I love reading. So I've got an, oops, I've got an address here. It's the Rayon Vert Hotel in Edgerton and anyone who's, uh, he's got any poetry, short stories, lyrics, or anything. They can send it to the on strap fans in. That's the idea. That's what I'm trying to.

• 37:12Fearne Cotton?

  But I love that and it's old school. We're using post. Let's do this. Let's get a stamp out.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Well, I keep losing my phone, so I don't have a phone anymore. I just do it on my.

• 37:20Fearne Cotton?

  This is, it's so beautiful and because I want to talk to you about this because.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  That's for you.

• 37:24Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, thank you. I love that. That's so cool. I'll send you a poem.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  I'll be, yeah.

• 37:29Fearne Cotton?

  I love writing poetry. I write poetry all the time. I, it is again, like writing, poetry, painting. I'm big into art. I paint portraits, looking at your work over the years and how prolific you've been, whether it is songwriting.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Can I hear one of your poems?

• 37:45Fearne Cotton?

  I haven't got one on me now and I definitely can't remember them, but I'm, I'm going to post you one. I'm going to do it. I'll show you my paintings on my phone.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 37:51Fearne Cotton?

  I love painting. And I think it feels to, for me, looking from the outside, art, without this sounding completely wanky, but art feels like for you, it's a matter of survival. Like you've got to create, you've got to do this. Whether it's song or poetry or drawing, sketching, would you say that?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  We have to, don't we? We do. Mankind has to. Mankind, humankind.

• 38:19Fearne Cotton?

  But we've forgotten that collectively, I think.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  But we have bursts of remembrance. It's like when you see the, I love that idea, I don't know who is Socrates or Plato, but the idea of the shadows at the back of the cave have always been hypnotized by that image. You know, you get these paleolithic or neolithic cave paintings, you know? Where someone's got the blood of an animal.

• 38:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  And just in this, in this cave, well, you know, the hunters have come back, putting the meat on the fire and the tribes there and someone's splashing.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  You know, for the first time, someone smashing images up on the wall of an ox or a man with an arrow and can imagine those children then, you know, like probably before language, looking up, seeing that. And it's the same today. It's the same for children today. You know what I mean? The the child's imagination, you know, it's still there in all of it.

• 39:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, you get to flex that muscle a lot because that's that's driving you to then write albums, to tour, to keep creating and keep making your music. What would you say is driving it today? Does it differ from writing that first Libertines album? What's driving those lyrics? What what's inspiring you and getting you feel buzzed up to write stuff?

• 39:34Speaker 02

  It's getting me buzzed up to write stuff.

• 39:35Fearne Cotton?

  Or even like with the album that you're

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Just don't even think about it, really. Just something needs to be

• 39:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  Something needs to be said or sung, you know, and it feels right. And you don't mind singing it again. I like to hear people sing as well. I love, you know, communal singing. That's what it is. Communal singing, communal dancing, really, just that movement and, you know, the all that morphing, bodies morphing, or, you know, just people sat down, listening, tapping their foot. That's cool, too. Um, yeah, people coming together, anything, you know, football crowds, music crowds, markets, I guess it could.

• 40:15Fearne Cotton?

  When I told my dad that I was interviewing you, he was like, oh, you must tell him that I'm a QPR fan. And I was like, I will. My dad, well, he was born in that area. So he was like literally next door to QPR. So, yeah, my brother, they're all QPR fans.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  West London boy.

• 40:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I was like, don't worry, I'll tell him, Dad.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  All right.

• 40:32Fearne Cotton?

  So in that little piece you wrote that you just read out, which is so beautiful, you you touch on anxiety. And obviously, that was referenced in a sort of collective sense that we're all sort of there's this undercurrent of anxiety and it's ramped up daily by everything that we're imbibing, news, social media, etc. What where's your anxiety at?

• 40:52Speaker 02

  This is the weird thing. This is the weird thing that I sort of evaded your question before about what gets me buzzed up because and this is the dilemma I'm in, which I didn't really want to answer, honestly, but I have this habit, really bad habit of telling the truth.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  And that is that when I was taking drugs and I was in those moments, especially alone with a guitar, in that fevered state, often it would lead to extreme, you know, surges of anxiety. It wouldn't necessarily last, but and they were the moments that always created this like, so fuck, this is it. I'm going, I've got to write a brilliant song right now.

• 41:32Fearne Cotton?

  I'm going, you said I'm gonna die?

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is it. There's no way forward now. I can't, I can't walk this type of road anymore. And then I'd have to do something. I'd have to write something so beautiful and perfect that just for myself. And then I'd make it through to the other side. Do you know what I mean? The heart would slow down and blah, blah, and the drugs are gone. And I've got this song and, you know, that would happen a lot. Um, and then you end up building whole, whole albums around those, you know, two or three weird intense moments that then you can build on or inspire someone else to write a riff or different lyrics. And without that, I'm not that arsed really about writing songs.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  I mean, I love music and I always love playing music, but that need to write and create, it was unfueled by the anxiety and darkness. Now, it wasn't always the drugs that created that. You know what I mean? As a, as a young man, sort of teens and twenties, I was pretty melancholy anyway and angry in a lot of ways. But those, you know, those fevered states of anxiety were just as common as psychedelic bliss. You know what I mean? And being, being by, you know, the canal in Little Venice with an acoustic guitar right here, a melodic folk song, like. So it was a real strange back and forth, you know what I mean? So.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  I don't know where it's gonna come from, actually. I know, seeing, might as well try and write a radio play or something. I've always wanted to do that.

• 43:05Fearne Cotton?

  Do it. I'd love that. That'd be great, like the new Arches.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  But I tried writing one in here, but it ended up really silly and vulgar, like, this is a short story I wrote.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  It's really stupid, but.

• 43:21Fearne Cotton?

  You're selling it to me already.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  That's why I put it in here. That's why I put it in here in such small type, because it's just. So you can imagine someone reading this. First of all, they'd have to, they'd have to be able to read the text.

• 43:32Fearne Cotton?

  Tiny, I can't read that.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Half a cider, mister. Paula put her thumbs up meaninglessly and immediately the few customers in McNamara's knew from the decisively peculiar way she spoke and moved her hands that there was trouble with this lass. There was at first tremendous excitement in the glass, a rapid explosion of froth and bubbly effervescence. It seemed to want to spill over and need some mopping up, but all at once, with a slight change in the pitch of the fizz, the cider relented and the breaker collapsed inside the beaker. Paula's wide eyes looked at the glass and looked and sat and looked. The cider bubbled a while and Paula sat and the cider bubbled and Paula sat. Three pounds fifty, my love, the barman brushed breadcrumbs from his chin.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Eye level, Paula looked long at the rim of the vessel. In a squint, she was a tiny model boat adrift in a bubble, in a bubble in an increasingly flat sea. I am not your love, she grunted in measured, sullen breaths. Measured sullen breaths, so that'd be more. I am not your love, she grunted in measured, sullen breaths. That's not what you've got, I have to. I am not your love, she grunted in measured, sullen breaths. The barman flicked one last crusty loaf lingering and leant into his response, which he delivered humorlessly but with a broad gap to smile.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Well, it's still three fifty. She farted with petulance and malevolent intent and a tall man with a small head looked up from his crossword and tried to subvert a giggle. Ah, Jesus, Macca, won't you be having enough of that, for fuck's sake? He swilled down the last swallow of sloppy Guinness and he moved into the snug and resumed his crossword. Paula looked around with an air of someone who has realised something of great importance she needed to share. I'd suck anyone's dick to bite it off if you could pay for me cider. She cackled loudly, farting again. A young couple heavily into a bottle of cheap wine burst into the kind of laughter that acts like a virus and Paula soon joined in, so too for the barman, though reluctantly.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Exactly as the laughter peaked and rolled away, the saloon door, anyway, yeah, he goes on like that a bit.

• 45:45Fearne Cotton?

  I love Paula. I'm already invested in what's gonna happen to Paula.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  She shits herself. And then the guy doing the crossword went, ah, that's it. He filled in his crossword, it was, yeah, crossword clue was diarrhea. Oh, no, hang on, no, there's another guy comes in.

• 46:01Fearne Cotton?

  Alright.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Exactly as the laughter peaked and rolled away, the saloon doors opened and in stepped a small, large headed chap in a two-piece lime green Adidas tracksuit with green Adidas Samba sports shoes on. On the back of his bants was perched a small pork pie hat. The barman composed himself and nodded hello. Marco, you terrible asshole. What's all the laughing for? Never mind. Good luck to you anyway. I'm smiling and it's drinks all round. Come on now. He waved his credit card in the air and adjusted to the shelves of drinks. Hmm, not for me, thanks, sweetness, said Paula. This cider gives you this. This cider gives you the shitty squits. The barman protested. You've not even touched a drop. She never touched a drop of that cider. It's not the cider. Well, it looks bad enough. That's sure enough, bellowed the green chap.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Paula dropped four euro pieces in the pot of cider and smiled. Cheerio. She waved and left the pub, walking like she was saddle sore with yellow shit streaming down the inside of her white soles. Beneath a denim skirt, the green man didn't see the shit stains trickily. He smiled to himself as she left and said to everyone, wow, she's fit as fuck, no? From the snug, the small headed man exclaimed, that's it. D I A R H E A. Gotcha. He filled in his crossword boxes with a contented smile.

• 47:16Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, who, why are we not making that into a radio play is the question? Someone commission it now. I wanna hear what happens next to Paula and her shitty knickers.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  I can see Paula's, you know, the Catherine Tate nurse?

• 47:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  You know that nurse?

• 47:27Fearne Cotton?

  Catherine Tate would nail that.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:30Fearne Cotton?

  I like it.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  The face she does for the nurse is like. He's sexy, me, little bitch.

• 47:37Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. But I mean, I've heard you say you want to write a novel. You've got, you say you're not asked about writing. This is clearly something you need to do. This is clearly something you, it's pouring out of you.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  No, it's just time at the moment with the baby. Because me and my missus are making, you know, everything's fifty fifty and we're both there. When she starts school, half the time, but at the moment, it's, you know, I mean,

• 48:02Speaker 02

  she with the screens and that, it's so easy. You could just put cartoons on and she's gone, but Katia doesn't. She thinks that rots the baby's brain, do you know what I mean?

• 48:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, there's a fine balance with that one, isn't there?

• 48:12Speaker 02

  If they have too many screens, so it's all about basically just playing with her. And if I could get her into listening to me write your stories or play guitar, we'd be away, but, you know what I mean?

• 48:23Fearne Cotton?

  You'll get there.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:24Fearne Cotton?

  You'll get there with that.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  The moment, she's just like, you know, she's twenty, twenty months, so, you know.

• 48:31Fearne Cotton?

  I remember that era. It was full on.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  You got kids?

• 48:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I've got a twelve year old and a nine year old.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Wow, how grand.

• 48:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. But I remember that era of toddlers and you can't do anything. Can't, and when they start walking, then you're in deep trouble because you just have to keep an arm on them the whole time.

• 48:52Speaker 04

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• 50:52Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what I want to go back on? There's something so interesting about you saying, you know, you had these, or you would have had, when on drugs, these bursts of extreme anxiety where your brain is maybe signaling, "I'm going to die, I need to create something ASAP," and you do it. And I've always wondered that about how much, you know, I have a real drive to paint and to write books and to make stuff. And I feel a bit flat and a bit blue if I don't, constantly. I have to have ideas, writing down, even if it's an interview, feel like there's something tangible at the end of that process of thinking up the questions, writing it down, how it's, and putting it in a notepad, pen, paper, really important to me. And I wonder constantly with anyone who is, you know, we're all creative, but anyone that is obsessed with creativity,

• 51:37Fearne Cotton?

  how much of that is driven by a very subterranean subconscious fear of dying and needing to leave something? We don't want to not exist. We want to leave something behind. Do you think that plays a part in any of it? Even now, you're clean and you're not taking drugs. How much of you needs to leave something?

• 52:00Speaker 02

  I don't know really, um, I'm leaving things for myself in a way, but not to do with the afterlife to do so. So I'd say nine, a year and a half ago, I had a mad burst of creativity. I wrote a load of songs, which is what is the album, the solo album I've done now. And we were doing the Libbines album at the same time as well. So all these songs came out, uh, I just, uh, trying to think, what was the question again? Am I leaving something for the after, for after I'm gone?

• 52:30Fearne Cotton?

  Well, it's just, you wanna leave a part of yourself on planet Earth. You wanna leave a mark.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  I feel like I've done that though. I feel like I've done things that I'm really proud of and that if they're still reaching people and touching people where I'm gone, then that's ace. But it's always been tricky to just feel true satisfaction and accomplishment from something you've done, you know what I mean? And think, right, you know, that's it. There's never a point where it's an unfinished thing. It doesn't, it never finishes. Which is really half the magic of it, isn't it?

• 53:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Would you say you're a perfectionist with your work? You know, with this album, with Calvados, you're like, that is exactly what I wanted to make. I've done it.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Some, sometimes I've heard that Calvados, Calvados song a few times recently. I didn't want it on the album at first. It was sort of a throwaway song that just came out. But I'm quite into it now. And then I was, I was looking at the comments on YouTube of it and someone wrote, Pish, uh, the real P D O K is long gone. And this like pale, failed attempt to, and it was just, it really like, really hit me hard, even though there was loads of nice comments as well.

• 53:41Fearne Cotton?

  It's always the shit one.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? But, but it can make me smile in a way as well. You know what I mean? Because there probably would have been a time when I would have got, you know, a hacker mate to find out where this person lived, you know what I mean? And burnt him and all his family's houses down. But now it just sort of makes me smile. I think, what a lovely thing to do, you know, to go on that.

• 54:01Fearne Cotton?

  They must be a happy person.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  But then it turns out, like, people don't really watch YouTube now anyway, apparently. Do you know what I mean? It's all, it's all, um, Spotify and

• 54:11Fearne Cotton?

  TikTok.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  And different things, you know what I mean? So, yeah. So what do you do with your paintings then?

• 54:17Fearne Cotton?

  Nothing at the moment. I need to work out what to do with them. I've sort of kept it away from work because it feels too lovely to then put out there. So I sometimes put them on Instagram, but I haven't really done anything.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  How many you got?

• 54:33Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I mean, over the years, I've, I sort of used to paint a lot when I was in my twenties and then had kids and then didn't paint for like a decade. And I'm back into it. So I haven't got that many, maybe thirty, something like that, but I'd like to do more, but I'll show you.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Do you feel like you're leaving something for people?

• 54:50Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know. I don't think it's even a conscious thing of I need to leave it. I think there is something inherent about feeling like I've got to make something whilst I'm here. I don't even know how to articulate it, but I'm definitely, I, when I paint, all right, especially painting though, I get really high. Like I'm buzzing. And when I finish the painting, I am buzzing for at least forty eight hours. Like I can barely sleep. It's like electrifying and nothing else does that for me. And it's a, it's a bit like that with writing, but I'd say less so because it's more ploddy and slow and painting can be more free and chaotic.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  If you were to interview yourself, what would you ask yourself?

• 55:39Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I mean, I would probably, I would probably ask myself all those questions that we would sort of dissecting in the middle of this about self-worth, because I think I'm constantly going back to that and looking at it and looking at who the hell am I behind all of this stuff? And do I like that person?

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, but do you go long enough without all this stuff? I mean, do you have times?

• 56:05Fearne Cotton?

  I do now.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Do you have like weeks or months where you're not?

• 56:07Fearne Cotton?

  Not really.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Doing public stuff and?

• 56:09Fearne Cotton?

  The change has been allowing myself to be more me in this setting. Rather than I better do what everyone wants me to do. So everyone likes me. What's palatable? What? How would people like to hear this podcast and what should I say? And how will the guest feel? Well, not even how will the guest feel comfortable because that's a given. I want that, but will the guest like me? You know, I think I used to be desperate for, for that, you know, will the guest? Walk away and think that was enjoyable or whatever. And I think what I'm trying to do is integrate the, just me, me at home with all of this craziness and people listening to it and people having opinions about it.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Have you got a good following? Have you got a good following?

• 56:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. On the podcast, we have lots of lovely listeners who'll be loving all of this.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  That's what it is, isn't it? That's what it's for. You've got this, when you've got this relationship with people, you know they're out there. Maybe someone will leave you a little comment, but it doesn't really matter. You know that you've got, you know, this relationship with.

• 57:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And I think, you know, the, the difference with this in comparison to what I used to do back in the day, like if I was doing Top of the Pops or whatever, which was me reading lines.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  But that's pretty cool still, Top of the Pops, isn't it?

• 57:21Fearne Cotton?

  It was very cool.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  I remember sitting cross legged in front of that everywhere.

• 57:24Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I remember I hosted it when you were on it with Baby Shambles. I remember that.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  The Kilimanjaro one or the, um, which one was it? Not the one where we had to stop filming it? Where there was a punch up in the crowd. Was it that one? Were you there for that?

• 57:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yep, I was there for that.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, it's that massive skinhead in the crowd.

• 57:41Fearne Cotton?

  Someone gave you shit and then there was a fight.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:43Fearne Cotton?

  Oh yeah, I was hosting that. Yeah. I haven't forgotten that because it was quite a moment. But I think this feels like, uh, hopefully we're making conversations that will make people feel boosted or maybe less worried about their own things in the past or whatever it might be. That's the point of all of it. Whereas before, there maybe wasn't a point apart from, I just need to be more successful. How can I do it? It's not really about that anymore, which I'm glad of because that's exhausting. So I would like to end by asking you, Pete, where is your happy place?

• 58:26Speaker 02

  So we go to bed quite, quite early with Babi and at some point in the night Gladys will come up. Zuzi always sleeps downstairs the other dog, but at some point Gladys will come up and you'll hear the padding on the stairs and maybe it'll be two or three. So in those hours where I've been sleeping for, the baby sleeps quite well as well. And she's, she still sleeps with us. She won't, we try putting her down, but in the middle of the night she'll always. So those hours really were lying there with the Babi and my missus and Gladys gets on the bed and then. As the light comes, she'll need a walk and Zeus will need a walk. So it's just like, okay, walkies.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  My wife's quite grumpy when she wakes up, so I have to be really quiet. And then bang, we race out and we go, me, Zeus, Gladys go across the fields. Just tramp across the fields really.

• 59:17Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, gorgeous.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  With the dogs and then come back and, you know, come back at eight or nine after a couple of hours and then crawl back into bed really.

• 59:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, that's heaven.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  Maybe if I put The Simpsons on really quiet, I can watch it while without waking anyone up. Um, there's a beach called San Juan Beach. It's pretty deserted because there's a big industrial thing there, so people don't go there. You know, to enjoy the beach, but when the tide's right out, it is right out. It goes out for about half a kilometer and then that time in the morning, it's just me and the dogs and.

• 59:52Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  There'll be old, you know, when the tide's really low, the, uh, all the locals come and because it's where they can get to the real good mussels and cockles, you know, and all their other baskets and. Um, yeah, just that, that time on the beach with the dogs alone.

• 1:00:12Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, that's bliss.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Those hours.

• 1:00:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Do you reckon you would have imagined yourself saying that 10 years ago?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I used to always quite enjoy walking on deserted. It's, I know it sounds really cliche, the deserted beach.

• 1:00:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no, it's.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Under the faded moon.

• 1:00:29Fearne Cotton?

  A cliche for a reason.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  That, yeah, that's my happy place, you know what I mean? You know, especially if Gladys shit somewhere where you can't see it, so it's probably in a bush, so you don't have to pick it up and.

• 1:00:38Fearne Cotton?

  I can imagine that Gladys does large dumps.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Oh my god, yeah.

• 1:00:43Fearne Cotton?

  She's like a horse.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Fearne Cotton?

  She's amazing and she has slept through the whole thing. I mean, Gladys, I hope this is not representative of the listener experience that they're, that I've been that fucking boring, but Gladys, you're amazing. What a great dog she is. She's been extremely calming to have here and Pete, I wish you all the success with the record, with the tour, with your little baby. It's been so lovely chatting to you today.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. It's been lovely talking to you.

• 1:01:08Fearne Cotton?

  I loved that. I really enjoyed that chat. Not only is Pete so thoughtful and obviously super intelligent and has so many interesting things to say, but I also love that that interview kind of went off on loads of tangents. Sometimes, especially I guess when you're sort of interviewing, I don't know, new pop stars or whatever, there's a level of media training that you can sense. With Pete, none, absolutely, just being himself. And I love that. I've really loved that. Pete mentioned that address to send in poetry. That will be in the show notes. If you write poems, send him one. He would genuinely love to read your stuff and maybe even include it in the next FanZine issue. What's your creative

• 1:01:49Fearne Cotton?

  outlet, by the way? Come and let us know on Instagram, @HappyPlaceOfficial. Let's chat about it in the week. For now, a massive thanks again to Pete, to the producers of this episode, Anushka Tate and Basil Oxtoby, and to you, because you're bloody great.

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