84: Importance of Trust, Discipline, and Creativity in Leadership. "18 Platoon."

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:56 - "18 Platoon" by Sydney Jary. http://amzn.to/2uARsXt Trust, Discipline, and Creativity in Leadership 2:30:58 - Take-aways and lessons learned. 2:51:11 - Support, Cool Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj 3:18:25 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 84 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  Gentlemen.

• 0:16Jocko Willink?

  Your life expectancy from the day you join your battalion will be precisely three weeks.

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  The florid mustached major who addressed us at the small reinforcement camp a few miles from Bayou obviously had misplaced, had a misplaced sense of humor, or he should have been sacked. On second thought, he definitely should have been sacked. Not that any of the dozen infantry subalterns took the slightest notice of what to us were the ramblings of an old fool. He was probably no more than 40.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  The 4th Battalion, the Somerset Light Infantry was in 129 Brigade and was a pre-war Territorial Army Battalion with close links with Bristol and Baff.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  In the United Kingdom till late June 1944, it was a close knit unit which had almost been decimated within a period of 48 hours.

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  On 5th of July, three officers and 62 other ranks were required as reinforcements.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  Between the 14th and the 18th of July, a further 12 officers, of whom I was one, and 479 other ranks arrived, and even then, the battalion was still below its full strength of 36 officers and nearly 700 NCOs and men.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  This will give some idea of the appalling level of infantry casualties which had to be accepted in order to enlarge the slender and vulnerable Normandy beachhead.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  Because I had the, had had previous experience of six pounder anti-tank guns, the commanding officer, Lippi, Lieutenant Colonel CG Lipscomb, posted me as second in command to the battalion's anti-tank platoon, which consisted of six guns.

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  But my stay with the platoon was short, and I was quickly sucked into the real infantry battle as commander of Eighteen Platoon in D Company. On the 31st of July, immediately after the Battle of Briskassard, D Company had just lost their commander, Tim Braithwaite, who lost a foot and gained a Military Cross. An Eighteen Platoon, their commander.

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  So that right there is the beginning of a book that we're gonna look at today. It's called Eighteen Platoon. It's written by a guy named Sidney Jary, J A R Y, who was born in Essex in 1924, joined the Army in 1942 as a private soldier. In 1943, he was commissioned.

• 3:25Jocko Willink?

  And from 19, from July of 1944 until June of 1945, he served as the platoon commander for Eighteen Platoon.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  And

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  the chances of survival for an infantry subaltern in a rifle company during the campaign in northwest Europe were slim. Most survived for only a few weeks. Sidney Jary survived 10 months from July 1944, when he took command of Eighteen Platoon in Normandy until the end of the war, near Bremen in early May of 1945. So this guy, this is, this is amazing. This guy, Sidney Jary, he's the only platoon commander in the, in the British Second Army to survive as a platoon commander from Normandy to the German surrender. One guy.

• 4:26Jocko Willink?

  One guy. And this is the guy.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's amazing. And you're gonna see that his attitude is, I mean, the lessons that he learned, he was young coming in. He was 20 years old, 20 year old platoon commander coming in inexperienced, kinda lived a sheltered life. You gotta check out some pictures of him. He has that look too. Sheltered look? He looks like, you know, sheltered, he looks like a little young whippersnapper.

• 4:56Jocko Willink?

  So, we'll go back to the book here as he breaks down what a platoon was at this time. In 1944, the war establishment of a British infantry platoon was 36 men. It consisted of three rifle sections, each of 10 men, including a Bren gunner, each commanded by a corporal or sometimes a lance sergeant. There was also a small platoon headquarters with a two inch mortar detachment, a PIOT, which was an anti-tank weapon.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  The platoon sergeant and the commander's Batman slash runner.

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  On July 31st,

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  18 platoon consisted of 17 all ranks, 12 of whom were recent reinforcements. Hill 112 and Brick Cigard had claimed the rest. So, so think about that. You're supposed to have 36 people

• 5:53Jocko Willink?

  in your platoon and they have 17 of which 12 are replacements, which means that 29 people had, had been casualties. There's seven people that had been either killed or wounded, or sorry, seven people out of this 36 that hadn't been killed or wounded that remained in the platoon right now. So that's what we're talking about here.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  And again, he's coming in, no combat experience. He rolls in and going back to the book, "I sensed instantly that a tight grip was required, particularly so because those few who survived Hill 112 had witnessed what was, without a doubt, the most horrific tragedy that befell the battalion during the entire campaign."

• 6:41Jocko Willink?

  So he's about to explain what they had been through. He wasn't there for it, but he knew and he had heard what they had been through. And I'm gonna say that again. This is the most horrific tragedy for the entire campaign. This is what they're coming off of and this is who he's going to take over for. This is what they had been through. Back to the book. During a night, during a company night attack, one of our soldiers had been hit in the lower chest by a rifle or machine gun bullet. Passing through his body, it had not killed him outright. The bullet's devilish course lay through the soldier's webbing equipment pouch, which contained a 77 phosphorus smoke grenade, which exploded.

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  Caught on barbed wire, the poor soldier lay disemboweled for all around to see his writhing body, a smoking mass of burning phosphorus.

• 7:37Jocko Willink?

  Responding to his agonized screams to put him out of his misery, his platoon commander shot him through the heart.

• 7:46Jocko Willink?

  And finally through the head, after the poor man's final frenzied pleas. Not there, sir.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  Through the head.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  Doug Proctor was witness to this sublimely courageous incident, which seared itself upon all our hearts.

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  So that's what you're going to take over for.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Can you do that? I mean, is that like legal? You know, like if they found out that that happened?

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  I have no idea what the legal ramifications are, but the moral weight on the shoulders of the men that witnessed that is, is unbelievably, it's, it's hard to imagine what that feels like.

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, to the NCOs. Sergeant Jim Kingston and Corporal Doug Proctor immediately reported to me and explained forcefully and in great detail, the poor state of the platoon as they knew it to be. So, you've got these guys, these are the senior enlisted guys in the platoon, Jim Kingston and Doug Proctor, and you're gonna hear a lot about them. And they're coming to him, here's this new guy checking in, and they're coming to him and they're, you know, telling him how, what a bad state the platoon is in. Back to the book, while they did so, I was conscious of being weighed up. Was I fit to be their platoon commander? They were responsible, anxious, and discriminating NCOs, that stands for non-commissioned officers, it's the senior enlisted guys.

• 9:26Jocko Willink?

  And my apprenticeship was to start immediately. They were startled by my attire. Previously warned by a young officer who'd fought in Tunisia, that battle dress was most unsuitable for battle. I'd come prepared in sand-colored corduroy trousers and a stout pullover, not unlike that now worn throughout the army. Among my prejudices was an acute dislike of steel helmets. They gave me headaches. On exercises in England, I had been obliged to wear one, but the surge of individualism, which now engulfed me, convinced me that this was an article of equipment best left out of battle. So he's, he shows up and he's kinda dressed out of uniform.

• 10:09Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't wanna wear his helmets, wearing corduroy pants.

• 10:14Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, battle schools in England had insisted that infantry officers should wear the same equipment and dress as their soldiers. The idea being that they could not be, then be so easily identified by enemy snipers. They also decreed that one should carry a rifle or a Sten gun.

• 10:32Jocko Willink?

  Clearly, this was ridiculous. How on earth could your own soldiers recognize you in the heat of battle if you went through such lengths to disguise? He had the same, the same attitude as Lieutenant Lee in Korea that was wearing the orange vest. You remember that? So he could be identified in battle? By his own men? That's what this guy's attitude is like, I'm not gonna dress like everyone else. They need to be, they need to know who, that, that I'm out there. How, they need to be able to see me. Back to the book. I dispensed with a rifle or Sten gun too, because I'm hopelessly short sighted. And I did not fancy trying to command a platoon while got up like a Christmas tree. Meaning covered in a bunch of gear.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  As a concession to impending battle, I sported a forty-five Colt automatic pistol with two spare magazines. The thirty-eight Enfield revolver, then general issue throughout the army, managed to combine total mechanical reliability with complete ineffectiveness. I once fired six shots from one at a target pinned to a plywood board, none of which even penetrated the board. Neither did I hit the target, which gave me little confidence in this weapon. The nine pounds I paid for the Colt proved a sound investment. So, there's a lot of people that like to talk about what type of sidearm? There you've got a big proponent for the Colt forty-five. The old classic.

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  Again, important to remember that he's not even carrying a rifle. Because he knows his job is leading. And I used to do it when we had SEALs, SEAL leaders, that would spend too much time on their gun. I would say, hey, you know what they used to carry in the Marine Corps and the Army? If you were a leader, you know what they'd carry? They carry a pistol. So give me your rifle. And we take it from them. Like, you, you need to be leading, not shooting.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Leif talks about that a lot, though.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's very, you, you know, Leif talks about his mentality, which was, he wants to shoot. He's from Texas. You know, he wants to shoot his gun. And he realized, hey, I'm not here to shoot my gun. I'm here to, you know, be at high port and be off my gun and leading. That's my job. And these guys took it to the point where they're not even carrying a rifle.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  Now he's talking about his senior leadership a little bit, his enlisted leadership. Back to the book, Jim Kingston was short, quiet and shy with the shrewdness of a countryman. Although he had lived and worked in Bristol all his life. He barely raised his voice, but had total command over his section. There was no argument with Jim. That's another thing you'd find about this book. This book, it, it, it takes so many stereotypes from, from Sidney Jerry on down. Like the stereotypes are just out the window of the way this platoon was. And there's a classic example, you know, you, you picture the senior enlisted guy, this brah, you know, gunny highway scenario, not happening.

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  Now he, now he talks about Doug Proctor, back to the book, Doug Proctor, although a Somerset, came from Nottingham. Also short, he was positive, direct with unfailing common sense and like Jim quietly dominated his section. So there's another, and I got to see some great leaders. There are some guys that were in, were in TU Bruiser that were quiet when they were in TU Bruiser. And when I was putting them through their next workup, I was thinking to myself, hey, are they going to be able to step up and lead? And that's exactly how they did it right there. They were just like quiet, professional and controlling, but they didn't run their mouth to get it done.

• 14:08Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, I had not previously met any platoon like this one. They were quiet, thoughtful and unabrasive soldiers. There was little swearing and there existed a tranquility in their relationships with one another. Their eyes implored me not to fail them. Two factors were immediately apparent. Firstly, the platoon required quiet, firm and confident leadership.

• 14:37Jocko Willink?

  So, that's a good assessment. You can see these guys don't need anybody yelling at them. And here's the second point. Secondly, if I failed to use my imagination and slavishly followed the battle school drills, most of the platoon would not survive another major battle. So, all the things he learned, the standard typical stuff that he'd learned, that wasn't gonna work. And it hadn't worked. That's why they had so many replacements come in.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In fact, the problem that faced me with 18 Platoon was identical to the one facing General Montgomery, our Army Group Commander. How to fight and defeat the cream of the SS Panzer Divisions in the close Normandy Bocage and still retain sufficient infantry riflemen to live and fight tomorrow. The problem was a difficult one. Obviously, I must set an example and always lead from the front. However, if I became over eager and got myself killed or wounded, the whole object of my previous training and my responsibility to my platoon would be cast away. I would in fact be letting down 18 Platoon. So, he knows he's gotta lead from the front, at the same time he knows he's

• 15:50Jocko Willink?

  gotta stay alive. He knows he's gotta stay alive. And this Normandy fighting here, he talks about Normandy being a defender's paradise, meaning when you're on the defense in Normandy, it's it's a paradise for the people on the defense, which was the Germans. Back to the book. We fought from one hedgerow to the next, up tortuous, overgrown, sunken lanes. Ideal country for the German defender, but appalling for attacking infantry. However, no arm but infantry could take and hold the Normandy Bocage. Bocage is like a trees, shrubs, mangled together.

• 16:31Jocko Willink?

  It was here that I served my apprenticeship and the platoon developed its character which despite constant depletion by casualties over the coming 10 months, it would retain until the end of the war. It was also here that imperceptibly, I became possessive with a team platoon. It was mine to be guarded with an almost maternal jealousy that resented all criticism of my soldiers. That's building at this point.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  Most important, it was in the bocage that I began to appreciate how vital is grip. Grip on oneself, grip on one's soldiers, and grip on the situation.

• 17:20Jocko Willink?

  Unlike characters in novels and films, most men react nervously to real battle conditions. Discipline and regimental pride are supports, but in decisive moments of great danger, the grip of the leader on the lead is paramount.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  Infantry section and platoon commanders must possess the minds and hearts of their soldiers. Strength of character is not enough. Successful leadership in battle, although complex and intangible, always seemed to me to depend on two factors. Firstly, soldiers must have confidence in their leader's professional ability, and secondly, they must trust them as men.

• 18:09Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. They gotta have confidence in your ability and trust.

• 18:14Jocko Willink?

  And this trust topic comes up all the time, and I use the word relationships, kinda interchangeably with trust. I, I always have to remind myself to point that out, that when I'm talking about relationships and building relationships and business on the battlefield and life, relationships are trust, that's what they are.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  We build a relationship on trust.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  And I guess you could have, you know, relationships that aren't built on trust, that those are like another thing, you know?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I have a relationship with that guy, but you know, but that's not, that's not what I'm talking about.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  Talking about good relationships.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Those are based on trust and those are obviously the second most important thing to him. So first is confidence in their ability, and second is trust.

• 18:58Jocko Willink?

  I like this part. It helps too if a leader has the reputation of being lucky.

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  Field Marshal Montgomery placed great importance on the principle of making the enemy dance to your tune. Nowhere is this more important than in platoon and company battle. It is decisive because if you do not dominate events, your enemy will.

• 19:22Jocko Willink?

  There you go. That's jujitsu right there.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Be first.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta be first. You gotta dictate the pace. You gotta, you gotta be proactive.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, sound leadership like true love to which I suspect is closely related is all powerful. It can overcome the seemingly impossible and its effect on both leader and lead is profound and lasting. Even after the passage of forty years, brief mention of the battalion's finest officers and NCOs brings a smile to the faces of the survivors of my platoon. Their resentment of those who failed to lead when it mattered most still runs astonishingly deep.

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  So, leadership can overcome seemingly impossible. This is why leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  Now, he's going into his, so that's kind of his assessment. And this is based on his experience, which we're about to get into. And he does more assessments. There's more, more, he talks more about what he learns about leadership as a whole. But you have to kind of understand what he went through and figure out where he learned it from. The first, his first command in battle, here we go, back to the book. We were to attack this rugged hill from the west with the fifth Wiltchers on our right and the fourth Wiltchers in reserves. The approach march to our forming up place had been a nightmare of swirling abrasive dust, shelling, and the stench of exhaust fumes from the tanks which transported us forward.

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  We were due to attack at fifteen hundred hours with A Company leading on the right and B Company on the left. We followed B Company. B Company moved off quickly with our company deployed about three hundred yards behind. Their forward platoons had barely crossed the stream when concentrated Spandau fire came from the front and from both flanks. So Spandau fire, this is kind of a generic term that the Brits used for German machine guns. They're primarily talking about the MG forty-two, which is a big belt-fed machine gun, very similar to a modern what we have M sixty or Mark forty-eight machine gun, a

• 21:46Jocko Willink?

  big, heavy, belt-fed machine gun, which lays down insane amounts of suppressive fire. So here we go. They're getting hit from both flanks with these machine guns. Back to the book, there must have been about twelve machine guns firing at one time. This devastating display of firepower stopped the battalion dead in its tracks. There was no way forward or around it and no way to retire. Some of the guns had engaged D Company over the heads of B Company and Private Morrison, eighteen platoon, was killed. So there's his first guy, lost. I like this, the way he starts off this next sentence here. First word,

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  powerless. So he's in his first combat situation. He's got one man killed and how does he feel powerless? Here we go. Powerless and crouching in a hedgerow, I tried to identify the Spandau positions. This proved impossible as they still kept up their crushing display of firepower. In my ignorance, I expected that the enemy machine gunners would soon expend their ammunition. They did not, nor did they in dozens of subsequent battles. So he's waiting for them to stop shooting? They don't. It just keeps coming. Captain Scammell, commanding A Company, was severely wounded. Major Thomas, commanding B Company, was killed. Their companies were

• 23:14Jocko Willink?

  badly cut up. On our right, the Fifth Wiltchers had fared no better. With their CO killed and casualties mounting, their attack also foundered.

• 23:25Jocko Willink?

  As the afternoon turned to evening, shelling and mortaring increased, much of it passing over our heads, thus isolating us from the reserve battalion. So, the Germans are mortaring over their heads, so that the reserve battalion can't get to them.

• 23:41Jocko Willink?

  Shortly before dark, a troop of tanks arrived, one of which was able to cross the stream and give us some brave, close support. Undoubtedly, it increased our morale, but it was not enough to get the whole attack underway again. Any movement by B Company to our front brought down instant and concentrated spandau fire. The same applied to us, a few hundred yards to their rear. Fortunately, the enemy did not seem to have any anti-tank guns, so our armored friends were comparatively safe. But the fact remained, that about 12 spandos had halted a battalion attack without our locating even one of them. That's what suppressive fire does.

• 24:24Jocko Willink?

  That's what, that's what a big machine gun does. You've got 12 big machine guns, that's stopping 700 people from moving. That's called suppressive fire. That's why, you know, when you heard Roger Hayden talk about how, how many heavy weapons they, how many machine guns they'd carry? They, I think they had nine out of a platoon of 14. That's why. Yeah.

• 24:48Jocko Willink?

  As dusk fell, a new plan was made. C and D Companies would advance in single file through A and B Companies and, using the cover of darkness, infiltrate the enemy position. Once through them, we would climb to the top of the hill and consolidate. A cold and damp mist descended, which, with fading light, gave us welcome cover, but also wretched discomfort. We were still in shirt sleeves, which became damp from the sweat of our exertion climbing the steep lower slopes. Alert, with pistol in hand, I anticipated a sudden brush with an enemy post. Not a shot was fired. By some miracle, we passed right through their positions without being detected. Our luck had changed.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  So you're gonna see quite a bit of that is as they what the Germans were doing at this point defending hard but then instead of staying and dying in most cases they would retreat and so they'd fight really hard for a while and then retreat and they'd advance if they had an opportunity but you're gonna see a lot of that back to the book we now had to advance across a large orchard so I deployed the platoon with two sections up and urged them forward as fast as possible suddenly in the middle of the orchard we came across a young girl in a clean white dress sitting with her back to an apple tree sketching

• 26:08Jocko Willink?

  now I just talked about this the muster the random things that happen in combat and this is what I'm talking about and how do you train for that now how would you ever if you're running a battle problem to train people what are you gonna do put a white girl in a white dress and then sitting with her back to a tree sketching doesn't make any sense how do you deal with it back to the book she seemed quite oblivious to the mortar fire and 18 platoons warlike appearance how to stop pretty young girls from interfering with battle had not been part of my training as an officer cadet nor had appeared on the curriculum of any battle schools which without exception had despaired of my future as an infantry soldier fortunately there was a farmhouse beside the orchard and it had a

• 26:49Jocko Willink?

  cellar where she was persuaded to shelter while we got on with our battle I reported what had occurred to our company commander who told me that I was being quite ridiculous really Jerry you're being absurd with that remark I realized that he had been a schoolmaster a breed with whom I had been in conflict until quite recently a breed with whom I'd been in conflict with until quite recently so this guy has the the attitude of a schoolmaster which in England is a little bit different and especially in the 1930s and 40s you know the strict I think of a Pink Floyd you know the headmaster how can you have any pudding

• 27:30Jocko Willink?

  if you don't eat your meat that guy that's what he's comparing him to his next sarcastic remark I would be obliged Jerry if you would kindly get on with the war he gave me little indication of what he wanted my platoon to do nor did it inspire confidence we were still over 200 yards from the meadow surrounded by cornfields which was the company's objective it now became apparent that our company commander had an academic and detached attitude of mind which made it quite impossible for him to command the company So, the company commander is not in the game. There's one thing to be detached from your emotions to make sure you're not getting caught up in the mayhem. But it's another thing to be so detached that you're not even aware of what's going on.

• 28:13Jocko Willink?

  And actually, I had a name for this when I was running training.

• 28:18Jocko Willink?

  Battlefield aloofness is what I called it. Cause we'd get these guys, you'd get these guys and we'd be running these crazy battlefield problems on them. And they'd be not to be crazy. And you'd go, I remember one time there's a, the task unit commander, there's all this mayhem going on. The platoons are getting overrun and people are getting, you know, shot with paintball and they're not hitting their objectives. And I walk over to the company commander, he's sitting in a Humvee, or sorry, the, the, the TU commander, the troop commander, he's sitting in a Humvee. And I like, the window's up, because they're bulletproof windows, but he doesn't want to get shot with paintball. The window's up, he's just sitting in there, he's got his headset on, of his radio. Like knock on the door, I'm like, hey, man, you know, wha- what's going on out there?

• 29:00Jocko Willink?

  He's like, well, I'm, I'm trying to gather that information right now. And I'm like, bro, you ain't gonna gather anything here but dust. Yeah, you need to get out there and make something happen. Because his idea was, you know, I need to be detached.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:13Jocko Willink?

  Which I talk about being detached all the time. But there's a difference between being, and you see the same thing in businesses. Where the, the, the boss or the leader has no idea what's happening on the ground floor. Right? He doesn't know what the, the workers are doing. So he's so far detached that he's, he's, you know, let them eat cake, right? That's where, that's where this guy is.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Wait, so why is that? It's cause what? They, they just, in a way, just depend on them to just handle it on their own?

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  They think they're gonna handle it on their own, which is a good attitude to have, until they can't handle it anymore.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  Once they can't, once a, once a team or a platoon or a, a business unit can't handle it on their own and they're failing. You have to get, you have to go do your job, you have to step up, you have to step down as leader. You have to get in there and square that stuff away.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so it's that without the get in there part.

• 30:03Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  It's just like, alright, just call me when it's done.

• 30:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and, and the problem is, somebody's gotta sort these problems out.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  They're there, they're real. And, and they're not getting better. And you might take you a minute to go, okay, wait a second, this, these, these problems aren't getting better, what should I do? Once you realize that they're not getting better, you gotta get in there and make it happen.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  This guy's not doing that. Back to the book. He behaved like a supercilious umpire on an exercise in England. At any moment, I expected him to admonish me for bad tactics, and the schoolboy in me feared that I might be sent to the headmaster for a beating.

• 30:41Jocko Willink?

  So they continue on. "We seized the highest point which faced the enemy, and the other platoons quickly deployed to give all-around defense of the other flanks. After being mortared, the company required no encouragement to dig in." It's a real motivator. Getting mortared will make you shovel hard. "The company commander walked round the platoon positions, eyeing everyone with distaste. Nothing pleased him, and he suddenly announced that he must sleep, which he did in my slit trench." Getting not a good feeling about this company commander. Just looking at everyone like negatively, and then all of a sudden he wants to sleep. I don't like this guy.

• 31:25Jocko Willink?

  And of course, he sleeps in my trench.

• 31:29Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is good. There's another officer that's there, that's present. "A guardian angel was watching over us in the guise of Dennis Clark. Dennis, some years older than me, was exceptionally kind to me and tolerant of my immaturity."

• 31:45Jocko Willink?

  Pay attention, this is good. "He took me by the arm a few paces away from my platoon." "Who the hell is in command of this shambles, sonny?" "I muttered the unconvincing explanation that it was our company commander. Looking me straight in the eye, he drew a deep breath, which managed to express both exasperation at my explanation and sympathy with my predicament."

• 32:12Jocko Willink?

  "You and I know that he is not, so what are you going to do about it?"

• 32:18Jocko Willink?

  "I asked him if I should take command. His expression hardened. Yes, you bloody well should." "Some demonstration of loyalty to my wretched company commander was obviously required. I blurted out that he was really a schoolmaster and not a professional soldier, so he's kind of defending him." "Dennis put his arm around my shoulder and whispered in my ear. So was I, sonny."

• 32:45Jocko Willink?

  So that's awesome. The company commander is not leading and this, this guy Dennis Clark, who I think he's an artillery gunner, pulls this guy's head aside and says, "Bro, you better take charge of this and you better do it quick." Back to the book, we were now well dug in on our objective. The company commander was still asleep. Dennis was arranging defensive fire tasks for me. I had assumed command of D Company without a word passing between our company commander and me. In practice, it made not the slightest difference because, because like a bad preparatory schoolmaster,

• 33:28Jocko Willink?

  he saw his role as one of examination and criticism. This he continued to do despite the incredulous stares of the NCOs. So he's taken charge and, and he hasn't even said anything. He's just done it. He just took charge and all the guy, the guys continued to walk around, did stare glare at everyone, but that doesn't matter. So this is a classic example. Your leader's not leading. I, I've given this answer so many times, but this is a classic. This might be one of the best examples. Your leader's not leading? That's fine. Good. Step up and lead yourself.

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book by dawn, the enemy had retired and elements of the battalion moved forward to consolidate and strengthen D Company's position. The whole operation was very amateur. There was no doubt that the new company commander could not command a company in battle, nor could I, who was just beginning to master the rudiments of commanding a platoon. He was removed within a few hours. I think Dennis had something to do with it, but he was not the kind of man to confide in 20-year-old subalterns. So that's another classic thing right there is that this guy Dennis, who is another, uh, officer. Probably went and said, get this guy out of here. Get this company commander out of here.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  But when he does it, the company commander gets removed and, and he doesn't say anything to Sydney Jerry. He doesn't, you know, rat it out or brag about it or make a big deal. He doesn't say anything. Just happens. It's like when I had a mutiny in my platoon. And the commanding officer was like, no, we're not firing anyone. You guys get out of here, shut your mouths and go back to work. And we were like, okay. And then a few days, like a week later, he got fired. But we, it wasn't because of us as far as we knew. Like no one said anything. We just knew he got fired.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, what reason? Hmm. We knew we had something to do with it, but same thing. So you don't need to create distrust and disloyalty and, and not even just those words, but you don't need to create drama.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:28Jocko Willink?

  Right? Don't create the drama. Yeah, that guy's going to go somewhere. He's getting built somewhere else.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Hey, you guys won, everybody.

• 35:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. We're not doing that.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:36Jocko Willink?

  We're not doing that. We're not building up our own ego.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  By disparaging someone else's. Let's worry about the whole team. How's that sound? Sounds like a good idea to me.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. I now have little doubt that for the first two months in Normandy, we lacked two things. Comprehensive and imaginative training and personal experience of battle. We were also seriously handicapped by our casual attitude. Too many junior officers did not think for themselves. And persistently relied on the narrow teaching of battle schools. Whose dogma had assumed the proportion of holy writ. So whatever he was taught. He was taught that that's the only way you can ever do it. And these guys, and I've, I've talked about this many times on the, on the podcast. The goal when I was running training was to actually get the people to think. It wasn't get, sure, you have to establish the baseline standard operating procedures. That's great.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  And those need to be rock solid. But once those things are established, you need to make people understand that you don't always follow them. And you need to cut off a piece of that standard operating procedure and insert some other thing and bring in another standard operating procedure and mix and match them so that you get something that's effective. You need to think. That's what a leader needs to do. A leader needs to think. Back to the book. The British infantry platoons and companies were overtrained and bored stiff with basic infantry tactics, which as far as they went were good. Much of this training unfortunately had been in the hands of battle school instructors who themselves lacked battle experience and imagination.

• 37:08Jocko Willink?

  These tended to become pedagogues, disciples of DS, directing staff, solution about which no argument could be tolerated. So DS is that he mentions it a bunch. He's like, that's their solution. The directing staff, you can't argue with them. They're the cadre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Possibly, like most of our infantry, they suffered some consequences of the pre-rare shortage of creativity, intelligent regimental officers.

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  Too few of them were professionally dedicated to the extent that they could visualize how battles would be fought and identify the problems that might arise when planning them. They seemed to lack the capacity to think relentlessly through these things until solutions were found. Much of their time had been spent policing the British Empire. Also, unlike the Germans, we British instinctively avoid displays of keenness. The enthusiast, particularly if he is innovative, is an embarrassment. Thus, the battlefield became our teacher and inevitably it exacted a grim price in blood and time.

• 38:20Jocko Willink?

  So as you're training, you got to push yourself hard. You've got to put yourself in situations. I don't care what you're training for. I don't care if you're training for combat in a SEAL platoon, in an army infantry platoon, or if you're in the business world and you're training your leaders to handle situations, or you're training your customer service reps to handle situations. What, no matter which one of those you're in, you need to push people hard. You need to put them in worst case scenario so that they need to learn how, they need to learn how to think to get out of those problems.

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  I recall with embarrassment an incident at 45th Infantry Divisional Battle School during the spring of 1944. An exceptionally tall and good-natured Canadian officer had been sent to the school to give a talk on the street fighting he had experienced in Italy. It was an interesting talk, but some of his advice ran contrary to that being taught in the school.

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  When the lecture was over, the chief instructor with insulting condensation thanked this shy and kindly man for a vivid word picture and turning to the students warned us that at as this officer's experience was probably unusual, we had best not stray from the DS solution.

• 39:41Jocko Willink?

  As taught at that school. So you've got a combat veteran coming back with experience from street fighting in Italy.

• 39:50Jocko Willink?

  And he'd come back with some different tactics. And they tell him, you know, don't listen to that guy. That's just a rare case.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  Closed mind will get you killed.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  This is starting to talk about their overall sort of formulation of combat plans and how they operated. Back to the book. The most successful actions by 18 platoon were fought without the support of artillery or armor.

• 40:21Jocko Willink?

  We had learned in a hard school how to skirmish, infiltrate and edge our way forward. The right or left flanking platoon attacks so beloved of the battle school staff would rarely succeed in the Normandy bocage. I remember with horror being locked into timetables of meticulously planned lodged battles. These invariably left the junior infantry commander no scope for exploitation. If you found a gap in the enemy defenses adherence to artillery program, which rarely could be altered, effectively stopped any personal initiative. So what that's saying is you have these, the artillery that's going to drop bombs, they're going to bomb or strike with artillery at certain regions and certain times.

• 41:05Jocko Willink?

  So you might see the enemy running away and you have a chance to gain a superior tactical position, but you can't because you know that that's where the bombs are going, that's where the artillery is going to be hitting in the next 12 minutes. So you can't go. So now you sit and wait.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  So he got locked in by that. Back to the book. To me, the preparations for these battles assumed the demented proportion of a Kafka-like nightmare ballet in which the anonymous "they" ordained that "we" must perform a choreographed ritual dance macabre. I felt trapped and helpless. No solo parts were written into the score, nor was there scope for small groups of performers in this mammoth ballet of machines. Undoubtedly, far shadows from the Somme, that's the Battle of Somme, clouded my emotions, but instinct told me that this kind of show would be unlikely to succeed. The irony was that this support was planned and given to the infantry with the best of

• 42:03Jocko Willink?

  intentions. The Somme had cast its shadows on our artillery and armored commanders. Both genuinely believed that their hands, that in their hands they had the pancia, which would protect us, the infantry, from the terrible slaughter of 1916. Instead, they put us in a straitjacket. So, very interesting viewpoint. And, and it's something that we need to pay attention to, because you've got to be flexible. You've gotta be flexible, and that's exactly what he's talking about. And these, they would make these plans that were so comprehensive, and there was no, you weren't allowed to deviate from the plans. And when you're not allowed to deviate from the plans, and something starts going differently than what you expected, you're trapped.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:51Jocko Willink?

  Tough one. Back to the book. Far too much time had been spent fitting the infantry and armor junior leaders into the big picture, and too little time spent training them and stimulating their imagination, initiative, and individual resourcefulness to probe, draw conclusions, infiltrate, and exploit weakness in the enemy's dispositions. So, he's criticizing this lack of initiative, lack of creativity, and the training to get that initiative and creativity.

• 43:25Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, after the first of August, 18 platoon never failed in any attack.

• 43:31Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes we took a little longer than planned, but we always got there in the end. In defense, we never lost one yard of ground, nor did the enemy ever penetrate our platoon position, and we always dominated no man's land with our patrols. Whether persistent patrolling is always sound policy, I will argue elsewhere.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  So, he's saying, once he kind of figured it out, they didn't lose anymore. They didn't lose any attacks and they didn't give up any ground. Talks about the armor. Our armor was accused of being tiger shy, meaning scared of the tiger tanks of the Germans, and I don't wonder why. The devastation caused by a single hit of an 88 millimeter armor piercing shell needed to be seen to be believed.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  And this is an overall statement, for the infantry and armor of the British Second Army, the sheer ferocity of the fighting in Normandy came as a salutary shock for which they were in some ways unprepared. So it was devastating for these guys.

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  Now, we start pushing out, out of, uh, out of Normandy and pushing into the Cien.

• 44:48Jocko Willink?

  And here we go. They're pushing in. The next day, 28 August, D Company occupied Haricort. This is the only operation of war that I ever known to go precisely as planned. Our supporting field regiment softened up the objective with their 25 pounders. The company advanced over open farmland in immaculate formation and consolidated exactly on time. The only thing lacking was an enemy.

• 45:16Jocko Willink?

  Total bag, one dazed German, one dead German, and one dead hare rabbit. So, the only one that ever went well was when there was no enemy to fight against. There was, there was two Germans. One of them was dead, the other one was dazed. And that was their, their last battle in France.

• 45:39Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, experience in Normandy had removed anxieties regarding commanding an under-strength platoon. So he hasn't had enough men. He's supposed to have thirty-six, he's had like seventeen, eighteen, nineteen. In the attack, particularly at night, a platoon at full strength is just too big to maneuver quickly. Three rifle sections of about twenty, above about seven men each, plus headquarters, was ideal. In defense, it was a different matter. The more rifle men on the ground, the better. Our short stay in Le Menzel, Milan, gave me time to think. The first opportunity to do so since I took command of eighteen platoon.

• 46:20Jocko Willink?

  It also gave me time to meet and talk with other young officers in the battalion. It was then that I realized that eighteen platoon was no ordinary platoon. It had some undefinable magic. No quarrels, little swearing, despite the war that was, despite the war, there was something peaceful about it. A helping hand was always available for anybody. The emotional links were firm and true. I was a happy man. So he realizes, and once he starts talking to the other platoon commanders, he's got this really special platoon that gets along great, and he's, he realizes it. Back to the book, no young officer can command a platoon

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  in battle on his own. In Normandy, I'd seen platoon commanders, served by poor NCOs, struggling to gain some semblance of control over their bewildered and frightened men.

• 47:19Jocko Willink?

  I'd also seen platoons with good NCOs go to pieces in the hands of an indifferent officer. Jim Kingston, Doug Proctor, and Owen Cheeseman set the standard and tone for eighteen platoon.

• 47:35Jocko Willink?

  Without them, I, as the platoon commander, would have joined the ranks of so many poor young officers who never achieved grip.

• 47:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, going to

• 47:53Jocko Willink?

  another, he's putting together another plan as they're advancing it. And obviously, this is a long book. I'm doing an abridged version, hitting some highlights. You should get the book. Obviously, get the book, buy the book.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. At zero four hundred hours on 24th of September, Douglas, this is the new company commander Douglas. Douglas held a long O group by candlelight in the cellar of the farmhouse at which, much to his annoyance, I kept falling asleep. We were ordered to advance straight eastward down a narrow country lane from the orchard to the main road and consolidate. After the O group, and O group is what they call like when they're, when their officers get together and pass the word, and they call it O group. After the O group, I made myself unpopular by asking why we were advancing towards an area of considerable German opposition when my patrol had found a better route by which we might outflank the enemy.

• 48:53Jocko Willink?

  So, so he's saying, hey, wait, why? Because his patrol, his platoon had been out on a patrol and found a better route, and he's asking why? And he kind of gets shut down. I was just 20 years old at the time. And even then, I knew I was incapable of disputing orders without giving offense. We started at zero six hundred hours, two platoons leading on either side of the track, the third following in single file down the track itself. On either side were the small holdings, were small holdings, a few allotments and bungalows surrounded by small picket fences. The platoons advanced through the gardens and vegetable patches and passed on either side of the bungalows, the rear section, searching each one quickly.

• 49:38Jocko Willink?

  And while they're searching these little bungalows as they're on patrol, they find this. Back to the book. During one of these hurried searches, one section found a Dutch family, the Wittages, father, mother, son, and daughter, riddled by Schmeizer fire. That's a German machine gun. They lay in awkward postures of death amid their ransacked home.

• 50:03Jocko Willink?

  A visit from the SS?

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  No tears came, nor did they come a half an hour later when we came upon the charred wreckage of an American Dakota. It had carried US parachute troops of the 82nd Airborne Division, and their torn and burnt bodies littered the orchard like charred and mutilated rag dolls.

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  There was a further irony. Attached to the front window in what remained of the Dakota's cockpit was a tiny teddy bear, untouched by flames. Two months before, a lonely teddy bear and an impersonal pool of blood had brought forth tears. Now I was collected and objective when faced within the span of 30 minutes with an atrocious murder and mass carnage by fire. And he's referring there in the beginning of the book, one of his first experiences. He's by a slit trench and there's a dead guy, soldier in it, and there's a little teddy bear.

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  And, and for some reason, you know, he's young, he's inexperienced, and it gets, gets, makes him super emotional, he starts crying. And, and now he's a little further in the war, he sees, you know, this horrible murdered family and these tragically, you know, burned and killed paratroopers, and he's able to detach emotionally from it.

• 51:34Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The enemy decided to make life unpleasant for us as possible by sudden unpredictable concentrations of heavy artillery right in the middle of our company area. We called them Stonks. So he's gonna use that word. It just means we're getting bombed. One of these shells unfortunately fell right into one of sixteen platoon slit trenches. No trace remained of the two men that were manning in it, manning a Bren. In my platoon, Lance Corporal Jack Lee and Private Peter Filmer were buried in the trench they shared. Other members of their section quickly dug them out unharmed, very dirty, and remarkably cheerful.

• 52:19Jocko Willink?

  The self-propelled guns increased their activities, filling the sky above the company with ugly black airbursts. They could place these with uncanny accuracy to burst about twenty-five feet above the road junction outside company headquarters. The casualties mounted. Company Sergeant Major Sammy Jones and Spot Martin, the jeep driver, were both hit outside company HQ. It was Sammy Jones who committed the battalion's only atrocity. Late one summer evening, as the shadows from high trees and hedges fell across a small field in Normandy, we took

• 52:59Jocko Willink?

  some young Waffen SS soldiers prisoner. One of them, a short, stocky, and fair youth of about eighteen, proved insultingly truculent. Seizing the young lout by the scruff of his neck, Sammy roared, "You can take that glint out of your eyes, my boy," and putting the wretched youth across his knees, he gave his backside a sound whacking.

• 53:27Jocko Willink?

  That is legit. And that's, again, you know, Sidney Jerry, and he talks about how proud he is that his men, his men's behavior is so upstanding throughout this whole miserable experience. And even when they see atrocities committed like by the SS, they still maintain their discipline and their character. And this is, this is what he does. Oh, you're a little punk kid? I'm gonna spank you. Yep. Tough little SS soldier getting put over the knee and spanked.

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  So, after the attack, so now this is, again, this is happening after one of these attacks and, the whole, the whole basic premise of this book is attack, rest, attack, rest, attack, rest. So, as I'm reading, I'm kind of picking out some of the attacks that are going on. And they're just moving through France and then through Germany. That's what it is. I should have explained that earlier. Uh, but this is after one of the attacks. It's interesting, he says this, "Smiling faces vanished and the gray look returned once more. Men walked with one ear cocked in the air for approaching shells and with a slight stoop." If you remember, I remember I was talking about JP. And I was talking about how, like, you'd see guys, they have this natural little stoop.

• 54:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. That's what he's talking about. And JP, no stoop. JP was standing up like- He was stoopless. He was not, yeah, he was stoopless. He was standing up, ready to get some. But these guys, as, and it's contrasted, because when they're on the attack, they go into like JP mode. They're standing up straight, they're ready to get some. But then, once they're on the defense and they're just waiting to get shelled, they start to stoop. They start to crouch a little bit. He continues, back to the book, "The jokes began to peter out and the cheerful good morning sir ceased when I went around the platoons at stand two."

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  Morale was always higher during an attack. Sitting around and being shelled is not an occupation to be recommended. So, there's a good lesson there. If you or your team is being defensive about things, your morale is gonna go down.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:49Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're waiting to get hit. So go out and hit somebody. You know, go on the attack.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:54Jocko Willink?

  Don't wait around. Don't let your morale drown.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Here's another attack.

• 56:06Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book scrambling out of the culvert, we set a fast pace up the side of the road to A Company's positions. This immediately brought small arms fired down on us, but by then we were then 200 yards of their slit trenches. So on we ran as fast as we could. Being soaked, I began to steam. My boots squelched and seemed to drag me back clawing at my feet as in a bad dream and stopping me from reaching the inviting cover of the slit trenches. A Company was dug in with two platoons forward in an orchard face to face with the enemy who were in dykes only a few yards beyond. The third platoon was to the right rear protecting the open flank and Company Headquarters to the left rear centered on some farm buildings.

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  It was to these farm buildings that we ran. Hurling ourselves onto the straw on the barn floor, we lay panting and gasping for breath. John Acock, A Company Commander, appeared round the door of the barn.

• 57:09Jocko Willink?

  He looked haggard and worn. I doubt he had slept for a week. The whole company area was covered by the most intense spandau fire and defensive and the defensive battle here was one of fire supremacy which the Germans had undoubtedly won. A Company's morale was low. They had just lost Harry Barnes, one of the platoon commanders who refusing to take cover strutted about in his usual manner. He took a complete burst of spandau fire under the arm.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  Harry was an amazing and fearless fellow who didn't care a damn for anything. Even after the burst hit him, he still lived for about three hours.

• 57:53Jocko Willink?

  The men respected Harry and with their idol shot down in front of them, they were very jumpy.

• 58:04Jocko Willink?

  Another time you have to watch out for morale, obviously.

• 58:11Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 58:13Jocko Willink?

  if you remember, this book started in the summertime and now we're starting to get

• 58:19Jocko Willink?

  towards fall. And this, this was something I'd never thought about before.

• 58:26Jocko Willink?

  When fall comes, you know, the sun is up for a shorter period of time. So here we go back to the book, "The nights became longer and the dawns gray and chilly. The sunsets were red and vivid and the days, though beautiful, shortened rapidly. As the nights lengthened, the hours of stag lengthened and with them the mental and physical fatigue of the company." So, they have to stay, have to stay up, you know, rotate through watches at night. You just don't get to sleep the whole time. So if it's, if it's dark for longer, you gotta stay awake longer at night. So it's, it's starting to wear on the company itself.

• 59:06Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, there was, there is one incident, "Small rumor when remembered by itself in a life of such incidents, but very, but to me, very vivid. In my platoon, there was a young lad aged eighteen named Biddle. He was of slight of build, fair, and looked a mere child. He had a pleasant personality and was liked by everyone. He had joined the company at La Menselle Melon after we had crossed the Sien at Vernon in August. One morning, there was a crack and a short interval of silence.

• 59:49Jocko Willink?

  Soon the shout went out, "Stretcher bearers", echoed through the orchard. I ran towards the commotion and saw Biddle writhing in agony on the ground.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  At first he looked unhurt, but as I tore open his tunic, I saw a clear wound through his abdomen coming out by his spine.

• 1:00:13Jocko Willink?

  He soon became numb and was no longer in pain, but was very frightened and shivered.

• 1:00:21Jocko Willink?

  We dragged him back behind the house and applied field dressings to his stomach and his back in case the wound started to bleed.

• 1:00:30Jocko Willink?

  His young life slowly ebbing from his body, our stretcher bearers quietly and reverently carried him away.

• 1:00:41Jocko Willink?

  The scene is now too poignant to remember without shedding a tear.

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  After Biddle had been evacuated, the morale of the platoon dropped.

• 1:00:53Jocko Willink?

  He had been hit while standing in his slit trench by a sniper at least 300 yards away.

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  And you know, it's, it's interesting, and I didn't go into this part, but there's a part earlier in the book where

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  he, he basically

• 1:01:17Jocko Willink?

  disparages somewhat the use of snipers.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  And he talks about how they usually don't gain you anything tactically. But it's interesting what it does to the morale of a platoon, isn't it?

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  And you know, he doesn't completely, he, he, he explains that there's usage and there's believe me, there's probably no bigger believer in the use of snipers in the world than me, but it's interesting, you know, he, he basically, you can tell he's a very, a guy with, you know, this extremely high moral character. And he kind of gets the feeling when he explains it that, you know, he didn't feel comfortable with sniping because people aren't expecting it. There's not a battle happening. He felt like it was a cheap shot.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  But it's interesting, the effect that it actually has on his platoon.

• 1:02:18Jocko Willink?

  In this moment here,

• 1:02:22Jocko Willink?

  we're gonna get to a point, he's got, Germans are in a dike, they're just ahead of 18 platoon, and 18 platoon is kinda pinned down.

• 1:02:30Jocko Willink?

  And remember this character from earlier, Dennis Clark, Dennis Clark was the, was the guy that pulled him aside and said, "Hey, you need to take command of this company." Well, like I said, Dennis Clark, or I, I thought I'd remembered, and I was right, Dennis Clark was a, was an artillery guy that called in artillery. So here we go, back to the book. "I was saved by Captain Dennis Clark. MC, our tame gunner, Dennis had a virtuoso touch where 25-pounders were concerned. 'Sniping with one gun, that should get the buggers out,' he said with total confidence. Moving his 19-set into my, that's a radio, moving his 19-set into my platoon position, no easy task in daylight, he gave us a display of the most brilliant professionalism

• 1:03:15Jocko Willink?

  we had come to expect from the 94th Field Regiment. By firing with only one gun and making his mean point of impact beyond the dike containing the Germans, he slowly decreased the, the range, yard by yard, until one shell exploded in the dike. Out came five very wet and shaken Panzer Grenadiers. During this episode, all the platoon had to remain in the bottom of their slit trenches because Dennis's shells came over our positions with minimum clearance. I doubt if any experienced infantry officer would deny that the Royal Artillery during the Second World War were the most professionally competent people in the British Army."

• 1:04:01Jocko Willink?

  So, again, an interesting dichotomy, because in the beginning, he talks about how the artillery can trap them, because it's being used in this broad plan that's locking in where there's no deviation, but here, he's talking about how brilliant it is because he's directly coordinating with it. He's explaining to the artillery officer where to put those rounds, what the problem is, and then letting the artillery officer solve it. So, there's a dichotomy there, just like there's a dichotomy with the snipers.

• 1:04:34Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. After a few more days in the orchard, we were becoming increasingly exhausted and our fighting efficiency deteriorated. This condition existed not only in my company, but throughout the battalion. Consequently, the news of a move back to rest came as a colossal, colossal relief to us all. But we did not know who was going to take over our positions. The takeover was to be at night and was to be carried out as quickly as possible. If the enemy discovered it, a determined attack could cause endless confusion and slaughter. During the late afternoon of one particularly unpleasant day, Douglas appeared, that's the company commander, appeared with an American captain and two lieutenants from a parachute battalion of the 101st Airborne Division.

• 1:05:17Jocko Willink?

  They padded around the company area in their rubber-soled boots with the eyes of the whole company following them. So the 101st is coming in to relieve them. Having reconnoited our area, the Americans returned to the company HQ to discuss administrative points for the takeover. The plan was for the American company commander to bring his company down the main road and single file along the edge of the ditch. When the head of the column reached our company HQ, they would be met by guides from each of our platoons to lead the American platoons to their positions. As soon as they were on the ground, our platoons would withdraw and assemble on the road. This may sound simple in practice, but at night in close contact with the enemy, it certainly was not.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  This type of operation leaves two companies particularly vulnerable during the handover. A determined enemy could attack and turn the operation into a massacre. This is one of, and I've said this before on the podcast, one of the hardest things to do is link up with friendly forces on the battlefield. And if you're under fire, it's, it's even harder. So this one, they're trying to do it not under fire, trying to sneak and make it happen.

• 1:06:28Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the rest of the day was spent packing, making sure the enemy noticed nothing of this activity. We put our spare ammunition onto the carriers with great coats and blankets. The whole afternoon was strangely quiet. There was no activity from the enemy, and we in turn kept quiet. The sun went down amid a fiery sky. Looking east, the sky was threateningly gray. I went around, I went round my positions with Sergeant Kingston before the Americans arrived. All my men looked tired and could hardly muster a smile as I went from slit to slit. Many had contained two men, and now contained only one, together

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  with some memento of his former mate, a mess tin, or a bloodstained jacket, even a packet of cigarettes, wet and limp with dew. I wondered how many more mementos would be there when the Americans were relieved.

• 1:07:29Jocko Willink?

  About an hour later, the Americans arrived. They loomed up in the darkness by the roadside, padding along in their rubber-soled boots without a whisper. I thought at the time what splendid troops they were, and how excellent their equipment. I was particularly impressed by the silent and quick way they were led by their squad commanders to our section positions. So, there, come the Americans to relieve them. The 101st Airborne Division, who's just outstanding soldiers. They're just awesome, and we worked with them. I mean, one of my platoons in Ramadi worked with, lived with them. The first of the 506,

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  the Band of Brothers. And you can tell, their, the reputation that the guys in Ramadi upheld that standard in every possible way, but it's rooted all the way back to these soldiers right here. Sounds like, this is what struck me when I read that. I was like, oh, this, this, that, that tradition of excellence in that unit has gone from World War II, from these guys right here, and it's that same attitude that I saw with guys in Ramadi. The same attitude.

• 1:08:45Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 1:08:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, he makes a statement here about this whole big operation, which was called Market Garden, which was this giant operation to try and cut off the Germans, seize multiple bridges. I think there was three bridges they were trying to seize. And it, it didn't reach its full effect. It wasn't like a complete mission success. They didn't achieve every objective that they wanted to.

• 1:09:13Jocko Willink?

  So here we go back to the book. Market Garden was a sad operation, complete success coming so close.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  At a stroke, the war in Europe could have been finished in 1944.

• 1:09:25Jocko Willink?

  Undoubtedly, mistakes were made, both by the first airborne division, particularly their planners, and also by 30th Corps, and there was no shortage of bad luck. However, in my experiences, in my experience, most battles are riddled with misfortunes and mistakes and the sort of the sort found in this operation.

• 1:09:46Jocko Willink?

  It was not a failure because the ground was taken and a prerequisite to both Operation Veritable and the Rhine Crossing. So it wasn't like a total failure. Back to the book, I'm convinced that had the Supreme Commander, General Eisenhower, given Market Garden the unqualified support that it justified, it would have totally succeeded, despite its crop of tactical errors and planning and execution. I suppose it was just one more casualty of the American mania for dispersal of effort. However, it was without a doubt the most exciting and imaginatively planned battle in which 18 platoon ever fought, and I'm proud to have taken part. So he's talking about the focus of effort.

• 1:10:29Jocko Willink?

  He's talking about you, if you spread yourself out too thin, you're not going to, you're not going to make it happen. We call that prioritize and execute. What's the biggest priority? Let's put our resources there.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  They didn't do that and therefore didn't get a full mission success. Now, of course, what resources were there? What was available? There's, no one has unlimited resources. No one. If you have that, you have no issues, right? You just crush problems with manpower.

• 1:10:59Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so now they're moving beyond Market Garden and planning, actually planning, he's planning a patrol through a village. Back to the book. Battle School teaching at the time prescribed a strength of 12 to 20 for a fighting patrol. Here again, my instincts and experience did not conform to their teaching. He's a rebel.

• 1:11:24Jocko Willink?

  How can you command and control that number of men in the dark, particularly in a skirmish? Douglas, the company commander, tolerant of the absent, abstinence of my opinions

• 1:11:37Jocko Willink?

  on these matters, left the planning to me. So cool. Douglas's little decentralized command. You figure out your plan then. I like this. The composition of the patrol I based on personalities and not on a battle school ordained number. So imagine that. You're, you're planning based on the personalities of the individuals you have. The countryside being comparatively open, I decided to take a Bren gun. Being steady, Williams and Filmer would fill the bill admirably. If we ran into trouble, they could provide covering fire for any assault we might make, or if things went badly, they could cover our withdrawal. Cover and move.

• 1:12:15Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, the assault party required strengthening, so I decided to take a total patrol strength of six men, one Bren with seven magazines, and three armed with stens with five magazines and four 36 grenades each, plus a pair of wire cutters. I carried my Colt, four grenades, and an umbrella. My umbrella had been a source of amusement to the platoon since I had found it on the roadside in Mook. Apart from keeping me dry in or out of a slit trench, it was useful when prodding for mines and brought some fun and color to our lives. Jim Kingston and Doug Proctor fought otherwise, maintaining a disapproving silence which I failed to notice.

• 1:12:57Jocko Willink?

  So now they're out on patrol, moving down the bank to the right, we crawled forward in the mud and wet grass until we were almost past the orchard, from which came the sound of digging and voices. Suddenly, a challenge came from our front, followed by a shower of stick grenades thrown from a trench just inside the orchard on our left. One of the grenades landed between my legs, which were stretched out and spread apart as I lay flat on the riverbank. There was no flash, its explosion seemed muffled, and more importantly, owing to the soft mud, I received not a scratch. The game was up now, the concentrated fire of the three stents poured into the German, into the surprised Germans.

• 1:13:39Jocko Willink?

  Putting away my pistol, I threw three thirty-six grenades in quick succession into the orchard, hurriedly reaching for my umbrella, which eluded me, and then ignominiously, ignominiously, we beat a retreat. So,

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  he gets a grenade throw on him, and I actually had this happen in TU Bruiser, some guys were out on patrol. They were in an open field, they had cover from one side, because they had pre-planned how they were going to cross this field, and while they were out there, they got hit with machine gun fire, and then mortars. And they got mortars dating like on them. And luckily, because it was, they were in like a muddy field, like almost rice paddy scenario, the mortars, when they hit, they went into the mud. And so they exploded, but there was no, all the, the shrapnel was all absorbed by the mud. That's a lucky day for DU Bruiser right there. Boys were a little, little fired up when they came back from that one.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  Now they get back into a defensive perimeter. I remember nights in defensive positions like Grosebeek stretched out in a slit trench, trying to get an hour's sleep before going around the platoon positions to check that everything and everyone was alright. One felt and was dirty, and in the small hours of the morning with bootlaces cutting into swollen feet, a foul tasting mouth, and an aching stomach, life had little to commend it. The dirt and discomfort worried me more than the danger. Danger, for some reason that I have never understood, exhilarates. But despite every effort to keep clean, it did not always prove possible, and that was unbearable.

• 1:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Never once since I, never once since have I not been grateful to sink into a hot bath or slide into a bed with clean sheets. We went to extraordinary lengths to keep the dirt at bay. Once, in Normandy, I washed and shaved in the rainwater in the deep ruts made by carts. Afterwards, I discovered that 400 yards away, the opposition had been overlooking my ablutions. A decent lot, who obviously approved of my personal hygiene, so that they didn't kill him. Hey, this guy's just trying to be clean, let's let him continue. Back to the book.

• 1:16:07Jocko Willink?

  During the campaign, 18 platoon carried out three types of patrols: reconnaissance, standing, and fighting. The first two were invariably useful because they provided information, if only negative. Fighting patrols, of which I led many, were a different and contentious proposition. Unlike the German and American armies, we had a vigorous policy regarding fighting patrols, particularly at night and when things were static on both sides on the defense. The thinking behind this policy seemed to me, at times, to be superficial and probably left over from the Great War, World War I. If, when detailed for a fighting patrol, young officers queried the wisdom of its given

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  object, there was always the standard reply: "I quite agree with you, but it all helps to dominate no man's land." There is undoubtedly a certain validity of this argument, but was it worth the consequent loss of good young officers and NCOs? I doubt it.

• 1:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Shortly after the war, I was able to briefly voice my reservations to my illustrious Army Group Commander.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  That's Montgomery, by the way.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  After giving me my MC, that's Military Cross ribbon, he stepped back and said crisply, "Patrolling is bloody, isn't it?" When I stammered that it seemed a bit hard, that it was always the same people chosen for patrols, he replied with a twinkle in his eye, "One day you'll command a battalion and you'll understand the problem."

• 1:17:48Jocko Willink?

  For a 20-year-old subaltern, an exchange like this with a Field Marshal was heady stuff, but Monty's mischievous humor and utter lack of pomposity, coupled with his single-minded professionalism, extended his personal influence to the most junior soldier in 21st Army Group. We felt we knew him and that he knew us. Often, he did. So...

• 1:18:14Jocko Willink?

  That's a great little interaction. You know, he says, "Patrolling is bloody work, isn't it?" And, and Sidney Jerry says, "Yeah, and the thing is, it seems like it's always the same platoons that get made to do the patrolling." And he says, "One day when you're in charge of battalion, you'll understand why that is." And the reason why that is, because you've got the good guy and that's the guy you're gonna send out. You're gonna rely on the people that get it done.

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  This is interesting. They got another patrol that they're getting ready to have to go out on. And the patrol was to probe between the roads and advance if possible as far as the forest. Beyond this, its purpose was indeed vague. Douglas called me and another platoon commander to accompany HQ and explained it to us. He then suggested we should toss a coin for it. An embarrassing situation arose. I thought that the winner would lead the patrol. The other officer anticipated that the loser would. I lost the toss and got the job. So, so imagine that you and me are saying, alright, there's a dangerous patrol we're gonna have to do. Let's flip for it. I'm thinking heads.

• 1:19:32Jocko Willink?

  If I win, I get to do the patrol. You're thinking if you win, you don't have to do the patrol.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:19:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh, not everyone was quite as fired up, I guess, as, uh, as Sidney Jerry was.

• 1:19:46Jocko Willink?

  And they, they wrap up a relatively kind of, uh, uneventful patrol, relatively uneventful patrol. And he returns and they're having a cup of tea and some biscuits.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:20:01Jocko Willink?

  In true British form. Back to the book. It was then that I suddenly realized that I'd been commanding eighteen platoon for three months. To be precise, three months and two days. Before I'd joined the battalion in mid-July, I had been warned, warned that my life expectancy would be about three weeks. It seems strange to me now, but at no time did I anticipate being either wounded or killed. I was just too busy for thoughts like these and I had become totally absorbed in my grim responsibilities. In July, I had been ridden by doubt about my ability. In my innocence, I'd expected success in battle to be the prerogative of a victor la dorum.

• 1:20:48Jocko Willink?

  Which is like the champion. I now had no such doubts or illusions. Furthermore, I had discovered just how much soldiers resent and fear a young officer who sees battle as a means to win his spurs, possibly at the cost of their lives.

• 1:21:09Jocko Willink?

  So when you roll in and you're Mr. Beating Your Chests and you're, you're gonna prove yourself to the world. Yeah. Don't be that guy. Cause you're gonna write checks with my life and we don't like that.

• 1:21:27Jocko Willink?

  My duty had become clear to me. It was to command 18 platoon with quiet confidence. Providing I made them only once, my mistakes would be forgiven.

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  If my soldiers were to go, were going to place their very lives in my hands, they in return required of me a serious attitude to my profession.

• 1:21:53Jocko Willink?

  If I could achieve this with a light touch, so much the better.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  That's an interesting comment. So, you know, he's saying, look, what they require is I gotta be serious. I gotta be as serious as possible. And the, it's, it's like you ever heard the term minimum force required? Yes. Yeah, you probably use that as a bouncer, right? Hey, you gotta use the minimum force required. So what he's saying is that as a leader, the lighter touch, the better. The lightest touch you can use to lead is better. That's a pretty cool statement. That's a good thing to think about.

• 1:22:29Jocko Willink?

  How can you lead with minimum force? Every time you go and you use more than you, than you need, you're, you're overexerting, right?

• 1:22:43Jocko Willink?

  And who knows what kind of, you know, you're taking away initiative. You might be stamping out morale. So lead with that minimum touch. I like that.

• 1:22:54Jocko Willink?

  So at this point, they're in a, they're in a position and there's three of these Mark III 75 millimeter self-propelled assault guns. So they kind of look like tanks. They got big tracks. They're Germans. They're German and they're, and they're sitting out in front of them. They're in a, they're in a static position. The company's in a static position. And there's these, these tanks sitting there, three of them. And Douglas looks at him and he's thinking to himself, hey, I don't know what those, they, they look like they're functioning. They don't look damaged. And so Douglas is saying, okay, well, we need to find out what's going on. Even if there's no one, even if there's no one in them right now, it could be a place where they use snipers later.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  So, someone's gotta go check him out. So, Sidney Jerry, the guy, he goes out alone, kinda sneaks out there. He does stuff alone a little bit more often. Actually does stuff alone. There was another story I didn't mention, but at one point, there, he hears noise. Like, one of the guys reports, it's nighttime, and they hear, they hear noise in this field. They think there's an enemy out there. And he's like, well, there's one way to find out. So he, I think he does grab another guy on this occasion, but he goes out, and he's going through this field, and it's like a cornfield or something, and he can't see, and he's horrified. And he, he's trying to think of a reason to quit. He's like, I just wanna go back. This isn't smart.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  And as he's, as this is taking place, and his fear is climaxing, all of a sudden, he hears, "Mmmmm."

• 1:24:35Jocko Willink?

  A bunch of cows in the field.

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  So, he's doing another solo operation here, trying to find out what these tank-like assault guns are doing out there. Back to the book, climbing up above the tracks, "I put my head into the cupola, which was open. A familiar and terrible stench hit me. Inside was a Charnell house. Six inches away, a set of bared teeth, set in unrecognizable black and incinerated lump, grinned at me.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  Beside it, a charred and bony arm reached up in agony. Spread on the floor, like a pool of tar, lay the melted remains of the driver.

• 1:25:21Jocko Willink?

  I had entered Dante's Inferno. My head reeled, and with my mouth, nose, and lungs filled with the stench of death, I fell back to the ground.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  Although unmarked by fire on our, on our side, all three assault guns had brewed up and were blackened on their sides, which faced the enemy.

• 1:25:45Jocko Willink?

  With no stomach to look further, I ran back to the company, forgetting to look for American mines. Never again did I look into a knocked-out tank or self-propelled gun. I reported to Douglas that nobody in their right mind would use them for an observation post or for any other purpose."

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  Later that day, he asked, that's Douglas, Douglas asked the commander of a Sherman tank to fire some armor piercing shells into each of them. Positioning his tank hole down beside sixteen platoon's positions, which were to our left, the tank commanders, the tank commander first selected the assault gun I had visited. His first shell hit it slightly above the tracks, like the hammer of Vulcan. A red glow blossomed on the armor plate, around the point of entry and slowly faded. It was followed by a second and third shell until a mirage of heat appeared above it, and for a second time, the funeral pyre blazed with an incandescent ferocity.

• 1:26:50Jocko Willink?

  The Sherman gunner then turned his attention to the next assault gun, which, despite being penetrated by about six armor piercing rounds, failed to brew up. His first shot at the third caused a massive internal detonation, no doubt due to ammunition stacked within. A volcano erupted from its capula, sending a dense cloud of black smoth, smoke, and red sparks into the air. A truly Wagnerian end for the warriors entombed within, but it revolted me. For the rest of the day, I brooded.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  This communicated itself to my NCOs and soldiers, who stole mystified glances at my grief for an unknown enemy. During the afternoon, I wandered across the road to a lone house where Dennis Clark had his observation post. I was looking for solace from a wise and good friend. The post was filled with gunner officers, there must have been a dozen of them, setting up their equipment in preparation for an attack by 214 Brigade. This activity precluded any solace for me. Immature and undisciplined, my imagination ran riot. What were they like, these men, whose already incinerated remains had been blasted into

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  oblivion by the 75mm shells of our friend in the Sherman?

• 1:28:21Jocko Willink?

  My attitude to war was ambivalent. Undoubtedly, I was part pacifist, but despite an abysmal record in mathematics, and particularly in geometry, I was moderately logical for my age. This clearly ruled out total dedication to pacifism. I had previously discussed the concept of conscientious objection with clergy of all denominations, but none of them could give me constructive answers to my questions. "The privations and suffering of eighteen platoon hurt me.

• 1:29:00Jocko Willink?

  An infantry subaltern is faced with a conflict which cannot be resolved. One gets emotionally involved with those under one's command. Without this bond, few men will respond, and consequently, little can be achieved. However, to win battles, decisions have to be taken and orders given, which, at times, may seem to be a betrayal of this trust. Before battle, the commander must exude confidence and enthusiasm, whatever fears

• 1:29:41Jocko Willink?

  his private thoughts may hold." Just how thin a line divides this from deliberate deception? I call it the commander's dilemma. A pretentious phrase, but there is nothing to be done about it. In Nicholas Monserat's book, The Cruel Sea, poor Commander Ericson makes the point with poignancy. "It's the war. The whole bloody war. We've just got to do these things and say our prayers at the end."

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  There was another side, possibly caused by adrenaline.

• 1:30:29Jocko Willink?

  Danger attracted and excited me. I felt elated and until the battle was over, I was impervious to exhaustion. Commanding a platoon in battle demands not only a clear mind, but also considerable emotional force.

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  I suspect it is the same transmitted force that exists between a conductor and orchestra.

• 1:30:56Jocko Willink?

  Forty years later, the dilemma of my ambivalence is still unresolved.

• 1:31:03Jocko Willink?

  I find the suffering inflicted by war unacceptable, particularly amongst women, children, and animals.

• 1:31:12Jocko Willink?

  Thank God I was spared the horrific sights at Falaise. On some days, I am a pacifist.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  And yet, I'm still attracted by the sounds of guns and but for an extraordinarily happy marriage, would have found it difficult to resist the lure of soldiering.

• 1:31:38Jocko Willink?

  So what he calls

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  "The Commander's Dilemma", is what I call the dichotomy of leadership. And that one is the premier

• 1:31:50Jocko Willink?

  of them all. And that is, as a leader, as a combat leader, you are going to love your men

• 1:32:04Jocko Willink?

  and care about them more than anything else in the world and with that,

• 1:32:12Jocko Willink?

  you are going to make decisions and make plans

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  where you are sending those men into a situation where they can be wounded or killed and that's it.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  And that is the ultimate dichotomy of leadership. That is the hardest one to balance.

• 1:32:42Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, a new officer arrived named Humphries. He used to play cricket for Worcestershire. He came on the same day that Sergeant Oxland received a well-earned commission in the field. Douglas told him about Sergeant Oxland, and with great consideration, he went to 17 platoon's position to offer his congratulations. While they talked, just one salvo of 105 straddled them. One shell fell into 2nd Lieutenant Oxland's slit trench, and both were killed instantly. Like me, Ken Oxland had survived five months.

• 1:33:25Jocko Willink?

  Humphries survived not a full day. Is there a mathematical formula by which survival can be calculated? Who are the survivors and can they be recognized? Over the past 40 years, I've often pondered this, but still offer no real answer. I suspect, however, that it's something to do with attitude. Attitude seems to me to be a parameter, which restricts not only our relationships, but also our creative effort. Further comment is unwise.

• 1:34:07Jocko Willink?

  Humphries, one could argue, had little time to develop an attitude to our kind of existence. Undoubtedly, a self-fulfilling circle develops. Newcomers inexperienced in the perils of the battlefield suffered the highest casualties. Knowledge of what can and what cannot be risked postpones the fatal reckoning for the soldier. For the commander, however junior, battlefield experience will not only protect himself, but also all those under his command.

• 1:34:46Jocko Willink?

  And that's the, that's why training is so important, so important. And that's why when I got done with, you know, deployment to Ramadi, that's why I went to training. Cause I knew that right there.

• 1:35:01Jocko Willink?

  And I was thinking, you know, I didn't know how long the war was gonna last. And when we left Ramadi, Ramadi was still horrible.

• 1:35:08Jocko Willink?

  And when the task unit came in relieved us, man, they were getting after it.

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't know how long that was gonna last. I mean, it ended up not lasting that much longer, that kind of intense fighting. But it was impossible to tell at that time.

• 1:35:22Jocko Willink?

  We were just barely seeing stuff start to get, start to get better at the end of our deployment. Just barely started to see the first indications of that.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book.

• 1:35:41Jocko Willink?

  The fifth Duke of Cornwall's light infantry had attempted to attack Hoven village through these ghastly woods and had taken heavy casualties. Their rain soaked bodies littered the paths and clearings. While carrying out a reconnaissance, I came across one of their sections lying across, lying along a small path facing the enemy.

• 1:36:04Jocko Willink?

  At first I fought them alive until I saw that the studs on their boots were rusty. And their webbing equipment was bleached with rain.

• 1:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Their battle dress was starched with mud and their hands and faces were green. German booby traps were on or near many of the tracks and I was told by the company commander of the fourth Wilchers from whom we took over the position, that some of the bodies were also booby trapped. "Don't try to bury them," he said.

• 1:36:37Jocko Willink?

  I was temporarily commanding the company because Douglas had been given a well deserved leave in Brussels. Although militarily comparatively uneventful, Hoven has a special place in my memories. It was without a doubt my most, the most grisly and horrifying position that we ever hold, held. But more importantly, it was the place of Private Charles Raven's triumph.

• 1:37:02Jocko Willink?

  Raven had fought in all our battles since Hill 112, which to him was a yardstick of horror.

• 1:37:10Jocko Willink?

  All subsequent experience was compared with that, his first battle.

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  He was no soldier. I doubt if he influenced greatly any of the skirmishes, encounters, or battles in which he took part.

• 1:37:26Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes he was frightened, and he was so out of place on the battlefield that I often wondered how he became an infantry soldier.

• 1:37:34Jocko Willink?

  Before the war, he had been a clerk in North London. I'm sure he was a conscientious and loyal employee, and a considerate and loving husband, for, unlike most of us, he was married.

• 1:37:49Jocko Willink?

  Raven had hidden depths, and could be inspired. Once, in Normandy during a nasty little platoon attack up a sunken lane, 18 platoon was held up by the inevitable unlocated spandos. Straining my eyes through binoculars, I was trying vainly to locate these guns when I was handed a steaming mug of tea.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  He should have been observing to his front, but judging the moment right, he had brewed a mess tin of tea on a solid fuel stove. By any standards, this was an inspired act.

• 1:38:28Jocko Willink?

  He was considerate with our reinforcements, pale unsure men, some of whom until recently had served in the Royal Artillery, and had been transferred to infantry regiments to replace the appalling losses incurred in the Normandy bocage.

• 1:38:44Jocko Willink?

  Beside them, Raven looked bronzed and weather-beaten, a hardened campaigner, complete with a German Luger pistol to prove it.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  Some of the platoon regaled the reinforcements with horrible tales from Normandy and Elst.

• 1:39:02Jocko Willink?

  As little more than a schoolboy, I found these stories amusing. Raven did not.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  Fear, for him, was horribly real and never to be joked about. He developed a paternal attitude toward the newer and younger soldiers, a relationship devoid of patronage, but essentially, one of kindly understanding.

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  He spoke to me about it when I thanked him for his help. I admit I'm dead windy, sir.

• 1:39:35Jocko Willink?

  His extraordinary honesty with himself and the rest of the platoon forbade him to attempt to hide the fact.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  Raven had overtaxed his nervous and physical resources long before we arrived in Hoven Woods.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  After two days in the position, he came to me late one evening and asked my permission to report sick the following morning.

• 1:39:58Jocko Willink?

  I suppose I should emphatically have refused, but something made me hesitate and avoid dealing directly with the situation.

• 1:40:07Jocko Willink?

  I said simply, "All right, Raven, but do come see me before you leave."

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  He didn't come.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  The matter was never again mentioned.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  I can only surmise the struggle which raged in his mind all that night while he crouched in his waterlogged slit transpiring into the sinister darkness of the wood.

• 1:40:32Jocko Willink?

  I do know, however, that in Hoven Wood, a considerable moral triumph over stark horror was achieved by a good man, unequipped for nature, unequipped by nature for war.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  In my view, the bravest of the brave.

• 1:40:54Jocko Willink?

  So that guy Raven had been through all this stuff and just barely held the line and finally he was gonna break.

• 1:41:03Jocko Willink?

  Finally he was gonna break and he comes to Sidney Jerry and says, "Hey, I'm gonna go sick tomorrow." Sidney Jerry says, "Okay, come and see me before you go." He doesn't come back. Doesn't come back to him, doesn't go sick.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, infantry warfare is wretched business. It makes physical and emotional demands on participants that run contrary to all human instinct. The strong minority must quietly help the weak majority. To me, that is the essence of good teamwork and that jewel in the crown of the British Army, the regimental system is the strong foundation upon which we all knowingly or unknowingly relied.

• 1:41:52Jocko Willink?

  So, there's gonna be some people that deal with it better than others. And you gotta help them.

• 1:42:03Jocko Willink?

  Here's a situation.

• 1:42:07Jocko Willink?

  They set up early warning flares, so little tripwires in case to notify them if the enemy's moving down one of their flanks. And here we go back to the book. "After about ten minutes had passed, we heard the popping of mortars behind Hoven Village, and a concentration of bombs fell in the fields where we had laid the flares. Suddenly, our left flank was vividly illuminated as flare after flare ignited. Knowing little about these flares, we had laid them with the tripwires too taut. Had we allowed a degree of slack, the flares would not have ignited. My fault. I should have known."

• 1:42:48Jocko Willink?

  Had to throw a little extreme ownership from Sidney Jerry in there for y'all.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:42:56Jocko Willink?

  Now, he's talking about the attitudes of the soldiers and how soldiers, you know, there was a claim, he read an article years after the war that said that people, you know, people became brutal from the, from the war.

• 1:43:13Jocko Willink?

  And here's what he says, back to the book. "Does war brutalize? One can only speak from personal experience, but I think not. Certainly, no soldier of mine was made brutal, rather the opposite.

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  War developed in eighteen platoon consideration for comrades and humanity towards civilians and prisoners of war. I was proud of my soldiers then, and this sentiment has increased with the passing of years.

• 1:43:42Jocko Willink?

  I would not suggest that the naturally brutal might not find in war an outlet for their brutality. However, that war does not brutalize the type of decent men, the type of decent and fair-minded young Englishmen whom I had the very great honor to command.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  We were not an aggressive generation, a fact which may explain my failure to understand some present-day attitudes in the armed services, particularly in the Royal Marines and the parachute regiment."

• 1:44:12Jocko Willink?

  Possibly, a degree of personal aggression is appropriate in troops who are committed to battle for comparatively short periods, like the Marines and the paras. When the success of an operation depends on ultra rapid action. However, in my experience, troops lose personal aggression after about two months in battle. After three months, they acquire a mature compassion, which in no way detracts from their offensive capability. They simply know a lot more about war. I would suggest that personal aggression should not be confused with offensive spirit.

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  Based on professional competence and experience. Interesting take. That aggression that you can maintain? If you, it's not gonna last forever. And, and then, you're gonna have to fall back on duty. And, and that mature compassion, which isn't taken away from their offensive capability. Interesting. Back to the book, on the 11th of January, we return to the South of, and you know, just

• 1:45:39Jocko Willink?

  to go back to that one piece right there. Dichotomy of leadership. There's a dichotomy in everything. And, you know, obviously, I'm a big proponent of being aggressive, and I also always talk about the fact that there is such a thing as being too aggressive. You're running to your death. No, not a good idea. Not a good idea, and there's probably a good chance that when he talks about people, after two months of combat, everyone starts to develop a different type of attitude. Also, the people that were ultra aggressive didn't make it. Like the, like the leader that he talked about that was strutting around. The guy was ultra aggressive, didn't care about anything, and he's dead. So there's a balance you gotta have. That's the dichotomy of leadership.

• 1:46:24Jocko Willink?

  That's why the dichotomy of leadership is so important. And so hard to understand.

• 1:46:32Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. On the day after the battalion was relieved in Hoven Woods, someone I suspect, I suspect it was the adjutant, Tim Watson, decided that I should enjoy forty-eight hours on leave in Antwerp. I was overjoyed. The large hotel, although faded, was still plush and filled with officers, including women, ATS officers, from the various base units stationed in the city. Dressed as I had left the battlefield, I was both disheveled and soiled. Surrounded by the residents, many of whom were in service dress, I could not have felt more isolated and lonely.

• 1:47:12Jocko Willink?

  So he's getting some leave time, but he's showing up off the battlefield grimy.

• 1:47:18Jocko Willink?

  My first visit was to a magnificent white marble gentleman's hairdressing salon in the basement of a hotel. Without a word, the barber washed and rinsed my hair twice before touching it with his precious scissors and clippers. I remember the feeling of well-being as, climbing the stairs, I returned to my room. Next, I took three very hot baths, one after the other, to rid myself of grime, both physical and emotional. I think I must have slept for fourteen hours before I rose, shaved, took another bath, and decided to

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  explore the city. A rather creased battle dress was my best suit, and in this, I descended the main staircase into the lounge, which was filled with the resident officers, all of whom seemed to be annoyingly self-assured. I met a barrier. I had walked out of a world that I knew into one where I was desperately unsure of myself. Away from the battlefield, this world had no place for me. I did not go out to lunch, go to nightclubs, or meet

• 1:48:36Jocko Willink?

  the girls who were everywhere, seemed to be canvassing for these establishments. I had wandered too far into dark and smoky battlefields across the sticks to find solace or comfort in the bright lights behind the blackout curtains of Antwerp.

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  I longed to return to the battalion and to eighteen platoon, which without my knowing it had become my home. With a light heart, a clean body, freshly laundered clothes, and refreshed by hours of unbroken sleep, I gladly climbed into the three-ton truck that took me there. Years later, I found the same problem after I left the Army. Antwerp had been a small taste of the real world, and as anyone who has served with

• 1:49:31Jocko Willink?

  good soldiers on grim battlefields will confirm, afterwards, real life never seems real again. Later, there was no eighteen platoon to slink back to, and without a loving wife, it would have proved intolerable. Well, that's the feeling that, that we get when you get done doing that job.

• 1:50:08Jocko Willink?

  And real life never seems real again in comparison. I know the vets that are listening understand that part. Back to the book. On 11 January, we returned to the south of Holland, this time to Ganglet. Snow lay on deeply frozen ground, and life for the infantry manning their slit trenches became unbearable. Again, the battalion front was extensive. D Company was in reserve, close to battalion headquarters on the edge of town. Fortunately, Gangelt was on a reverse slope, which allowed us to move freely during daylight hours.

• 1:50:53Jocko Willink?

  The cold was penetrating. The oil in our automatic weapons froze, and until antifreeze lubricants were issued, our brands were useless. Holding a wide front with large gaps between our company positions necessitated putting out many standing patrols, particularly at night.

• 1:51:14Jocko Willink?

  The privations suffered by these small patrols, usually a corporal and three or four men, were harder than the rest of us. Some had hallucinations, and a few were evacuated, suffering from exposure. Keeping fit, warm, and clean, became a great effort. Conversation dried up. The platoon became quiet, but never morose. At one stage, I decided they needed cheering up, and I wandered around the section posts, ready to chat with all of them. It was quite unnecessary. I had wrongly judged their mood.

• 1:51:51Jocko Willink?

  They just wanted to be left alone. Now, there's a, again, buy the book and read the book, there's a chaotic battle at a place called Cleve. And after the Battle of Cleve, he kind of debriefs here, back to the book. What instructors at the School of Infantry would think about the Fighting Cleve, I shudder to think. It resembled no other battle in my experience. I had little control, and it developed into a section commander's battle. Looking back over the years, it seems militarily totally unprofessional. A real Wild West shootout.

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  Tactically, the Germans had every advantage. We were strung out in a long column amid shattered buildings and piles of rubble, with the groups of parachute troops attacking from both sides. They could snipe at us and engage with their spandows, from dozens of positions totally hidden by piles of rubble. They had the opportunity to concentrate their counterattacks on the narrowest of fronts, but failed to do so. So they failed to focus their efforts. I can only assume that we had the psychological advantage, the circumstances being so chaotic and disorganized.

• 1:53:13Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps, being Germans, they could not overcome their instinct for organization and tidiness. In the end, they departed, possibly in disgust, leaving us undisputed victors.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  On another attack. The Germans at this point are retreating. And they can see that they're retreating. Fearing that the retreating parachute troops would make a stand on the edge of the wood, I increased the rate of advance, joining Lance Corporal Portius in the forward section. Running across the level crossing, I suddenly found myself face to face with a German platoon complete with MG34. Fortunately, the gun was mounted on a tripod which was unusual and could not be traversed in our direction. From a drainage channel on the left of the road, a parachute has leaped up suav'd in camouflage veil. Pointing his schmeizer at me from about 10 yards range, he fired a whole magazine of

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  about 30 rounds. It was like watching a slow-running silent movie. I didn't hear the chatter of the schmeizer, but I do remember seeing the stream of empty cartridges, cartridge cases fly from the German machine gun. Miracles do indeed happen. One 9mm bullet went through my beret, missing my head, literally by a hair's width. Another went under the epaulet of my jacket, penetrating the webbing across brace, the webbing cross brace of my equipment and grazing my right shoulder. A third bullet ricocheted off the surface of the road and disintegrated the jacket, finally lodging in the palm of my right hand.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  Then came the anticlimax. The German looked at me in amazement, threw away his schmeizer, and I, with a shrug of the shoulders, he surrendered. My natural elation was short-lived. Behind me lay Lance Corporal Portius, shot through the heart. Some of the German platoon ran away across the open fields to our left and were cut down by rapid-fire Bren gun by Sergeant Kingston's section, which now lined the railway track to the left of the road. The remainder of the enemy came towards us over the level crossing with their hands raised. We took 57 prisoners.

• 1:55:49Jocko Willink?

  Now they're moving along and they are clearing some cottages and they get to this one cottage filled with rough wooden bunks. It had obviously served as an air raid shelter. The house having been found clear of enemy, Jack Lee was off his guard as he descended the steps. Suddenly from under a pile of blankets leapt the fanatical German paratrooper. The only fanatical German paratrooper we encountered the entire battle. A large man he seized Jack around the throat in an attempt to strangle him. Private Flue rose to the challenge. In a bound, he was down the steps and with a mighty lunge, transfixed the German on his bayonet.

• 1:56:27Jocko Willink?

  A brave lad, he undoubtedly saved Lance Corporal Lee's life just eight days before losing his own.

• 1:56:34Jocko Willink?

  The German was indeed unlucky, as it was the only occasion throughout the campaign on which eighteen platoons' bayonets were bloodied. We usually use them to open food cans.

• 1:56:48Jocko Willink?

  Having checked the platoon positions and arcs of fire for the Brens, exhaustion hit me.

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  I fell into a deep sleep. During the evening, a senior officer, I understand it was either the brigade or divisional commander, came up to my company position. When he asked to speak to me, Sergeant Kingston refused to have me awakened. I'm sure that Jim was the most diplomatic about it, but it says much for our visitors' humanity that he let it go by.

• 1:57:24Jocko Willink?

  Another attack. A and C companies were unleashed and passing B company secured their objectives against some opposition. It was now our turn. D company advanced across the flat, open fields down the left-hand side.

• 1:57:42Jocko Willink?

  Of the main road into Zanten. It's the name of the city. Village. Casualties from the preceding companies and the opposition lay all around. About three hundred yards short of the town were extremely accurately engaged by a battery of one oh fives. Some of their shells exploded on the hard surface of the road with ear-splitting detonations and frightening fragmentation. Pieces of shell casing hummed and whined around us. One twirling piece embedded itself with a thud into the trunk of a tree a few inches from my right ear. It was the only time in the whole campaign when I regretted throwing away my steel helmet.

• 1:58:23Jocko Willink?

  I think it was the accuracy and the intense noise of the shelling that caused it. One of eighteen platoons Lance Corporals, a big man who had served honorably since Market Garden, went to pieces. It was a pathetic sight and to everyone's credit, he was quietly removed from the battle.

• 1:58:44Jocko Willink?

  He had passed his limit and nothing more can be said.

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  So you don't know, these guys are brave at one moment and then a week, a month, two months, four months. They can't do it anymore.

• 1:59:05Jocko Willink?

  They get across the Rhine, now they're fully in Germany. There's a little bit of a lull in the fighting. Back to the book, early one morning while we were waiting for our supporting armor to arrive, our padre, John Williams, drove over to see us. After wandering around the platoon for a chat, he suggested, he suggested that we should go for a short stroll. I had now been commanding eighteen platoon for over eight months and I suspect that our adjutant, Tim Watson, a kindly soul, had asked him to find out what shape I was in.

• 1:59:42Jocko Willink?

  We had not gone far into the next field when we came across some grisly remnants. One of our artillery shells must have exploded right at the feet of a German soldier who had been digging a slit trench. His splintered and twisted spade laid beside, laid by the side of that half-dug trench, beside which was a small shell hole. He had been disintegrated into small pieces of flesh and bone which lay scattered all over the field. Had I been on my own, I would no doubt have shuddered and quickly departed from this horror. Draped over a wire fence nearby lay a parachute which our extraordinarily brave padre spread

• 2:00:27Jocko Willink?

  out as a shroud on the cold and damp grass. Then, stooping, he walked around the field, a lonely figure, reverently picking up every piece of that poor soldier. To my shame, I stood and watched him. I lacked the courage to help. Somewhere beneath those flat damp fields just north of the Rhine, that pathetic bundle must still lie.

• 2:01:12Jocko Willink?

  Now, they're in attack again. But it seems like things are going their way and we're going, he's kind of giving a brief to his, to his runner, when all of a sudden he hears yelling. "Back to the book, sir, they're charging us." Sure enough, from about one hundred and fifty yards ahead, a well-spread-out line of about twenty Germans were putting in a bayonet charge. Brave lads, they didn't stand a chance. I gave no orders, except cease-fire.

• 2:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Not one got within seventy-five yards of us.

• 2:01:54Jocko Willink?

  A few minutes later, a procession of Germans with stretchers and a huge red flag emerged from the village behind. When they were close to their casualties, they hesitated, so I stood up and waved them on. All were unarmed stretcher-bearers, and they moved across our front, collecting their dead and wounded.

• 2:02:13Jocko Willink?

  When they had finished their task of mercy, one of them, I think he must have been a German medical officer, turned and saluted in our direction.

• 2:02:23Jocko Willink?

  I returned the salute, and with that gesture, the tiny Battle of Sindarin ended.

• 2:02:32Jocko Willink?

  In Bremen, little over a month later, one of our stretcher-bearers, Lance Corporal J. Stevens, was killed by a German grenade as he went to tend a wounded German soldier.

• 2:02:44Jocko Willink?

  Eighteen platoon, remembering Sindarin, were justifiably outraged by such unsoldierly behavior.

• 2:03:00Jocko Willink?

  There is a mathematical formula. Aggression increases the further one goes behind the lines. Opposing infantry, with few exceptions, like the SS, are joined by a natural bond of mutual compassion which few but the aristocracy of the battlefield can understand.

• 2:03:20Jocko Willink?

  The public, influenced no doubt by writers with little or no experience of battle, have strange and sometimes silly ideas about what makes a good soldier. Ill-informed television programs have added to this misunderstanding. Few professions can be, have been so misleadingly caricatured. Had I been asked at the time before August 1944 to list the personal characteristics which go to make a good infantry soldier, my reply would indeed have been wide of the mark, wide of the mark. Like most, I no doubt would have suggested only masculine ones like aggression, physical stamina, a hunting instinct, instinct, and competitive nature.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  How wrong I would have been. I would now suggest the following: firstly, sufferance.

• 2:04:10Jocko Willink?

  Without which one could not survive. So he's listing what he thinks the most important characteristics for for an infantry soldier are. And the first one is sufferance, the ability to suffer. Secondly, a quiet mind, which enables a soldier to live in harmony with his fellows through all sorts of difficulties and sometimes under dreadful conditions.

• 2:04:34Jocko Willink?

  As in a closed monastic existence, there is simply no room for the assertive or acrimonious.

• 2:04:43Jocko Willink?

  Thirdly, below no less important, a sense of the ridiculous, which helps a soldier surmount the unacceptable.

• 2:04:53Jocko Willink?

  Add to these a reasonable standard of physical fitness and a dedicated professional competence, and you have a soldier for all seasons.

• 2:05:02Jocko Willink?

  None of the soldiers or NCOs who made eighteen platoon what it was resembled the characters portrayed in most books and films about war.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  All were quiet, sensible, unassuming, and some, by any standard, were heroes.

• 2:05:23Jocko Willink?

  If I now had to select a team for a dangerous mission, and my choice was restricted to stars of the sports field or poets,

• 2:05:34Jocko Willink?

  I would unhesitatingly recruit from the latter.

• 2:05:45Jocko Willink?

  Very interesting. And, I mean, obviously, you have to put this in the context of of his time, but

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  there's no doubt that, I mean, you get a sports star, especially these days, those guys that are getting paid twenty, thirty, forty million dollars a year to play a game.

• 2:06:09Jocko Willink?

  They're probably not going to be the best at suffering in a trench.

• 2:06:16Jocko Willink?

  Interesting.

• 2:06:19Jocko Willink?

  And I, and I think the key point of that is what is going back to what he talks about earlier is someone that can think. Someone that can think.

• 2:06:29Jocko Willink?

  Someone that is not trapped in, in thinking the same thoughts as everyone else. Which certainly an artist or a poet has to be outside the box of normal thought. Otherwise, they become that they don't become that. Right?

• 2:06:51Jocko Willink?

  In this situation,

• 2:06:55Jocko Willink?

  his platoon is kinda pinned down. And there's an air raid shelter. Which has someone in it is firing these things called a Panzerfaust, which is like a, it's kinda like a bazooka or like an RPG looking thing. And he sees where it's coming from and he sees that it's this shelter.

• 2:07:16Jocko Willink?

  But he doesn't know who's in the shelter. Here we go back to the, who, who else was in the shelter? Women and children sheltering?

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  More enemy soldiers with more Panzerfaust and Spandos?

• 2:07:28Jocko Willink?

  "We were in a vulnerable situation and it was no good pushing forward and ignoring the menace lurking inside that shelter. I could have sent two or three men to clear it. However, experience had taught me that when clearing cellars, that the first man sent in is invariably killed. Instead, concentrated fire was poured into the entrance, including a Piat bomb. Around us, the battle still raged and no opportunity arose for me to inspect the consequences of an awful decision.

• 2:08:04Jocko Willink?

  Nevertheless, my duty was to win battles and not to gamble with the lives of my soldiers by fussing over too sensitive a conscience." So, there you go. There's dichotomy for you. At the one hand, he's looking at this shelter thinking there might be women and kids in there. But at this moment in time, he doesn't have time to find out and doesn't have time to, to take the most cautious route. So they hammer it with machine gun fire and some, some anti-tank rounds. He never even goes to look. But he knows that he can't. His duty is to win battles. And he can't ditty dally because he has a sensitive conscience. Doesn't work.

• 2:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, Bremmer Haven was our final objective. It was 5th of May 1945, 19 days before my 21st birthday.

• 2:08:59Jocko Willink?

  Think about what you were doing when you were 20.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  I am, that's why it's so interesting.

• 2:09:04Jocko Willink?

  Ready to break out.

• 2:09:07Jocko Willink?

  We were concentrated at Willsted, about 20 miles north of Bremen, when the end came.

• 2:09:16Jocko Willink?

  And by the end, I mean, the end of the war.

• 2:09:20Jocko Willink?

  129 brigades' order was, "Stand down and splice the main brace." Which is a military, it's actually a Navy term, splice the main brace, means like, drinking light is lit. You can drink, the war's over. I had just given orders for our small part in the brigades, move forward against 15 Panzer Division, one of the famous Africa Corps formations. In 1983, Jim Kingston gave me his copy of those orders, which he had kept all those years.

• 2:09:52Jocko Willink?

  Reaction to the end of the war, like aggression, increased further behind the lines one went. The natural aristocracy of the battlefield, the infantry, having fired a photojoy of very lights curled up and slept.

• 2:10:11Jocko Willink?

  We had learned too much to indulge in shallow demonstrations. So everyone's all fireworks and getting crazy, these guys are like, "Cool, I'm going to sleep."

• 2:10:22Jocko Willink?

  Since July, we had come a long way from the Normandy beachhead. The battalion had lost 47 officers and 1,266 NCOs and private soldiers killed or wounded.

• 2:10:38Jocko Willink?

  After July 31st, 1944, no member of 18 platoon was put on a charge, no one went absent or deserted.

• 2:10:49Jocko Willink?

  Of the original 36 NCOs and soldiers who had landed in Normandy, only Corporal Cheeseman remained.

• 2:10:59Jocko Willink?

  One man.

• 2:11:02Jocko Willink?

  Many came after them and lasted a few days, weeks, or months. Few I was able to thank adequately. I doubt if any of them realized how much I personally owed eighteen platoon.

• 2:11:17Jocko Willink?

  When I joined them on thirty-first of July, I was naive and gouche.

• 2:11:25Jocko Willink?

  Due to a narrow upbringing, except for a passionate love of music, my intellect and emotions were unstimulated. My achievement at school had been abysmal, my mind was undisciplined, and confidence in myself, nil.

• 2:11:41Jocko Willink?

  This was rapidly swept away, probably within three weeks, certainly before we crossed the Xi'an on the twenty-eighth of August. Discovering an ability to command a group of men, some frightened and bewildered, produced a newfound confidence, particularly since I seemed to be able to achieve it quietly and without acrimony or fuss.

• 2:12:06Jocko Willink?

  Having to improvise tactics to overcome the shortcomings of battle school training also helped. It proved to me that in some circumstances, older and more experienced than I, others, older and more experienced than I, could be wrong.

• 2:12:22Jocko Willink?

  I suspect that as an only child, I had been brought up in too much awe of my elders.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  A new world had opened before me. Forethought and planning were demanded, imagination and instinct, too. Was that apparently quiet Normandy lane lethal? The intense spandau fire and mortaring along a dike, was it a prelude to an enemy's withdrawal? Did the orchard in front of the village hide eighty-eights? My judgment in these things had proved equal to better than most of... than the most, and it was the making of me. It also brought a few problems. I'm now only able to plan and run things in my way. As a result, I'm probably unemployable.

• 2:13:13Jocko Willink?

  However, I would never wish to change places with the shy hesitant boy whom circumstances put in command of eighteen platoon. Age twenty, I was far too young and inexperienced to appreciate that an infantry platoon was the finest command in the army and that the success or failure of a battle so often lay solely in the hands of a young officer. After careful reflection, I doubt that at any time since the war have I carried the burden of responsibility that I bore as a subaltern in battle. When an army, corps, division, or brigade was committed to battle, it was the battalion,

• 2:13:56Jocko Willink?

  company, and platoon commanders who took over the mantle of responsibility from the generals and brigadiers. In close country, forests, and street fighting, the platoon commander became the linchpin. Only the company and platoon commanders, particularly the latter, were able to have close relationship with their soldiers, which is a prerequisite for having above-average success. Failure by one infantry company could wreck a divisional battle plan. Conversely, gallant success, like B Company at Zantin, underwrote the battalion's victory.

• 2:14:35Jocko Willink?

  Again, I would emphasize the analog with the bond of professional respect between a great conductor and the members of a symphony orchestra, without which a truly great performance is not possible. Outstanding performances cannot be arranged in a concert promoter's office; they are created by some magic by the conductor and players in rehearsal and performance. Similarly, while senior commanders appreciated the strengths and weaknesses of their battalions and brigades, they could not extract a great performance from the rifleman upon whom victory depended.

• 2:15:15Jocko Willink?

  Only the company and platoon commanders, supported by their NCOs, could ensure that. Forty-two years on, I get considerable satisfaction from eighteen platoon successes, more so than I got at the time.

• 2:15:38Jocko Willink?

  So those are his thoughts and he's, the war is now over.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  And

• 2:15:46Jocko Willink?

  a few days after the war ended,

• 2:15:53Jocko Willink?

  well, go to the book, after cholera inoculations, we were conducted into the world of Frankenstein. Nothing had prepared us for what we now experienced. Not Hill 112, not Mount Pinchon, Elst or Hoven could compete with this horror.

• 2:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Before the incredulous eyes of 18 platoon, spread over acres of delightfully wooded countryside was a factory of death.

• 2:16:23Jocko Willink?

  Emaciated bodies resembling wax effigies of an alien race from a strange and distant planet filled many pits.

• 2:16:33Jocko Willink?

  The stench of death and the sight of such highly industrialized human degradation left my soldiers speechless.

• 2:16:46Jocko Willink?

  Private Macy, D Company's jeep driver, aptly summed it up.

• 2:16:53Jocko Willink?

  There is now no doubt that we have fought a just war.

• 2:17:03Jocko Willink?

  That's after they saw the concentration camps, obviously.

• 2:17:13Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, within a month of the war ending, 21st Army Group was required to supply junior officers for the 14th Army in Burma.

• 2:17:24Jocko Willink?

  Lippi, the commanding officer, decided that I should be one of them. And by then being intent on a military career, I was not inclined to argue. I would gain useful experience of jungle warfare, of which I knew nothing about.

• 2:17:41Jocko Willink?

  So they're getting orders, still a war going on in the Pacific. Oh, you wrapped up pushing from Normandy through Germany, through their surrender? Guess what? We need, we need people to go to fight in Asia. We need people in Burma. I was totally unprepared for the platoons, for the emotions that were unleashed immediately after I was deprived of 18 platoon. As a jeep took me away from the battalion, a ghastly desolation engulfed me. I felt like a small boy on his way to a grim and unknown boarding school.

• 2:18:24Jocko Willink?

  The pleasures of commanding 18 platoon in peacetime were being denied me. And it's interesting. So he's gets pulled away from his platoon and, and he goes into talk about what happened to the guys that survived, that he knew. And I, I found this part to be fascinating in the how these people went back to normal life, back to the book. Jim Kingston was demobilized in January 1946.

• 2:19:05Jocko Willink?

  And two months later, he returned to his civilian post with the Bristol Corporation Electricity Department. Retired in 1975, never married. Doug Proctor returned home to his wife and baby son in Nottingham in March of 1946. Found the transition from army to civilian life painless, returning to his accounting post in the coal industry. Owen Cheeseman, during the first few days of his demobilization, his wife died. Miserable and forlorn, he returned to his old job in Covent Garden. And a few years later, he met and married Bella, who in his own words,

• 2:19:49Jocko Willink?

  was a comfort and inspiration to him. Charles Raven joined the London Transport as a bus conductor. Later transferring to the clerical staff and rose by hard work and study to be a garage inspector.

• 2:20:08Jocko Willink?

  Joe Thomas and George Harris went into the building trade industry in Bridgewater.

• 2:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Surprisingly, just incredibly normal paths after this incredibly not normal life. And, and what happened to Sidney Jerry?

• 2:20:35Jocko Willink?

  So here's what happened to Sidney Jerry. Back to the book, arriving in England on 9th July, 1945, I reported to the holding battalion of the Hampshire Regiment at Westgate on Sea and was immediately sent on 28 days leave.

• 2:20:52Jocko Willink?

  After a night out in London with three friends, also Burma bound, I telephoned my parents and found them away.

• 2:21:00Jocko Willink?

  Trapping them to Bogner Regis, I caught a train from Waterloo and went to see them.

• 2:21:06Jocko Willink?

  Staying at the same hotel as my parents were Flight Lieutenant Jack Weatherly's widow, Peggy, and their three-year-old daughter, Anne, were staying at the same hotel as his parents. At once, a bond of deep understanding and affection developed between us. In August, an atom bomb was dropped, and so, at a stroke, my visit to Burma was rendered pointless. So too, in my heart, was a military career.

• 2:21:40Jocko Willink?

  I soldiered on in Libya and Palestine with the first battalion of my own regiment for two more interesting years, and finally was demobilized in May of 1947.

• 2:21:55Jocko Willink?

  Within a week of leaving the Army, I attended a job interview.

• 2:22:01Jocko Willink?

  The managing director, who saw me, a pale and thin-lipped man, was a business acquaintance of a relative. He eyed me coldly. Slowly and precisely, from his desk, he lifted a ruler, which he rudely pointed at my face. "I understand that you made a slight name for yourself in the war. Be that as it may, people like you, Jerry, should remember that. While you have been gallivanting around the world, most of my staff have remained loyal to the company. If you can give me one valid reason why I should even consider you for any position, I should be interested to hear it."

• 2:22:45Jocko Willink?

  I nearly hit him. Now I wish that I had. Quickly grabbing my hat and umbrella, I rose and told him that if he was the last man in the world, I would rather starve than work for him. With that, I left. My heart pounding and a foul taste in my mouth, I walked aimlessly through miles of streets, wishing that I was back on some battlefield, with real men. Soldiers. Like Eighteen Platoon. Armistice Day brings its problems. Peg and I would like to go to church. We used to go, but found, almost without exception, a lack of perception and sensitivity

• 2:23:29Jocko Willink?

  amongst the clergy. We suffered one Armistice Day sermon devoted to the curate's theory that war, being a crime against humanity, all chivalry must therefore be hypocritical. I wondered whether the German stretcher-bearers and their wounded at Cindern would have agreed. I took offense. Peg and I have a lot to mourn. She, Jack Weatherly, and I, Eighteen Platoon's dead. Perhaps it is expecting too much of anyone to understand intense grief.

• 2:24:11Jocko Willink?

  Particularly that of a now-aging platoon commander, who had to lead some of his men to their deaths.

• 2:24:22Jocko Willink?

  We now spend Armistice Day quietly at home with our ghosts.

• 2:24:34Jocko Willink?

  Memories abound. During the night, I made a habit of wandering around the platoon position so that each of my soldiers could talk to me. I learned a lot. They talked about their families and their future hopes. I hardly had to contribute to those whispered conversations that sometimes took place in the dead of night or in the cold gray light just before dawn.

• 2:25:01Jocko Willink?

  I think it may have helped my soldiers to have a confidant.

• 2:25:06Jocko Willink?

  Invaluable experience of human nature, I now treasure the memory.

• 2:25:16Jocko Willink?

  Weapons also left memories. The monotonous repetitive bursts of the Bren, the hysterical shriek of the MG42's furious raid of fire, and the lethal chatter of the Stens and Schmeizers all contributed to the cacophony of battle.

• 2:25:38Jocko Willink?

  Tracer bullets seared themselves into memory. Fired from a distance, their parabola approached almost lazily, until suddenly like a swarm of fiery demons, they accelerated directly past one's head with ear-splitting cracks. I shall never forget the brain-splitting shock wave as mortar bombs detonated, nor the rending of the atmosphere when a stick of Nebelwerfer bombs straddled one's slit trench.

• 2:26:12Jocko Willink?

  My memory is stocked with smells. The metallic stench of dead cattle in Normandy, the pungent odor of German prisoners, and the vile penetrating chemical smell from a newly plowed shell crater.

• 2:26:30Jocko Willink?

  Strange, fleeting memories too.

• 2:26:34Jocko Willink?

  Why, in circumstance of great danger, did the palms of my hands moisten, making it difficult to grip the butt of my pistol?

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Why, on pitch-black nights, full of menace, was it possible to discern enemy movement by fixing my straining eyes slightly to its side? It sounds foolish, but I swear that it works.

• 2:26:57Jocko Willink?

  After forty years, I am sure I could still prime a .36 grenade in total darkness, or load the magazines of a Colt automatic pistol.

• 2:27:09Jocko Willink?

  I remember our dead.

• 2:27:14Jocko Willink?

  Their souls departing, they lay awkwardly like bundles of discarded clothing.

• 2:27:21Jocko Willink?

  At Bedberg, Lance Corporal Portius lay by the railway crossing.

• 2:27:27Jocko Willink?

  In an instant, he had gone, leaving his body, clothing, and equipment... Empty.

• 2:27:36Jocko Willink?

  At Halvin Boom, Private Jones died with a tiny cry, lost in the chill winter air, as the bullet took him from us.

• 2:27:52Jocko Willink?

  Memories are not all sad. Rarely since has my adrenaline flowed as an advance to combat.

• 2:28:02Jocko Willink?

  With all the senses alert, one lived for a few hours, sometimes for day, at a concert pitch.

• 2:28:10Jocko Willink?

  Like a drug, it captivated me. I wanted more. Totally absorbed, one pressed on until objectives had been seized.

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Then I flopped as I had never done since.

• 2:28:26Jocko Willink?

  I remember the mood of pulsating expectancy during the last few hours before battle. Old trusted friends like Dennis Clark and Bramley Hancock would arrive to tie up their artillery support. Others, troop commanders from the Sherwood Rangers, would appear almost in party mood to marry up with us. The very air was vibrant with excitement and good fellowship. No acrimony, simply an exercise in willing cooperation to help us, the infantry, overcome the day's grim task.

• 2:29:02Jocko Willink?

  But my most treasured memory is the simple and sincere affection which existed between us all.

• 2:29:13Jocko Willink?

  Based on mutual trust, it was the cornerstone of the platoon's success, and it survives unchanged to this day.

• 2:29:23Jocko Willink?

  This is tinged with regret because Jim Kingston, Owen Cheeseman, and particularly Doug Proctor did not receive any recognition they so richly deserved.

• 2:29:36Jocko Willink?

  Jim and Owen were mentioned in dispatches, but Doug was left unrewarded.

• 2:29:42Jocko Willink?

  Over the years, this omission has troubled me particularly because had I not been so young and inexperienced, more notice might have been taken of my representations.

• 2:29:56Jocko Willink?

  I have no doubt that they all earned a Military Medal on more than one occasion, and I, their platoon commander, failed them in this respect.

• 2:30:09Jocko Willink?

  I miss my soldiers. The warmth of their presence comforted me, and their humor restored my spirits.

• 2:30:19Jocko Willink?

  In the brutal world of infantry warfare, although few of them realized it, and certainly none would admit it, their behavior was noble.

• 2:30:32Jocko Willink?

  Their absence left a void which, but for an exceptionally happy marriage, would have certainly drawn me back into the Army for the comfort that only a soldier can understand.

• 2:30:49Jocko Willink?

  Strangely, I have never since considered myself anything but

• 2:30:56Jocko Willink?

  a soldier.

• 2:31:09Jocko Willink?

  And that

• 2:31:13Jocko Willink?

  wraps up that book.

• 2:31:23Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not

• 2:31:26Jocko Willink?

  sure if I have much to add because

• 2:31:37Jocko Willink?

  because Sidney Jerry seems to capture it.

• 2:31:44Jocko Willink?

  And so much of what he talks about

• 2:31:49Jocko Willink?

  explains

• 2:31:52Jocko Willink?

  so much not only about, about being a soldier,

• 2:31:58Jocko Willink?

  but also about what it's like when a soldier is no longer a soldier.

• 2:32:09Jocko Willink?

  To

• 2:32:13Jocko Willink?

  to miss the adrenaline.

• 2:32:16Jocko Willink?

  To miss that singular focus.

• 2:32:24Jocko Willink?

  To

• 2:32:27Jocko Willink?

  miss seeing men

• 2:32:31Jocko Willink?

  at their best, at their noblest.

• 2:32:40Jocko Willink?

  To miss the men themselves.

• 2:32:46Jocko Willink?

  Your comrades.

• 2:32:50Jocko Willink?

  Your friends, your brothers. To miss what he calls so perfectly that simple and sincere affection that exists in a platoon.

• 2:33:10Jocko Willink?

  An affection that I'm not sure exists anywhere else.

• 2:33:19Jocko Willink?

  And you, you hear me talk about, when I start talking about a SEAL platoon.

• 2:33:25Jocko Willink?

  About how that's the best thing in the world and Sidney Jerry captures it better than me. You miss the mission and you miss the men.

• 2:33:40Jocko Willink?

  And of course, you miss

• 2:33:45Jocko Willink?

  the fallen.

• 2:33:51Jocko Willink?

  As the British call them, the glorious dead.

• 2:34:02Jocko Willink?

  And you wonder what would have become of them.

• 2:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Where would they be now?

• 2:34:20Jocko Willink?

  And you, you wonder why?

• 2:34:27Jocko Willink?

  Why them?

• 2:34:33Jocko Willink?

  Why was it them?

• 2:34:40Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I talk about

• 2:34:45Jocko Willink?

  the gift, right? The gift that they gave us.

• 2:34:51Jocko Willink?

  That the fallen have given us this gift of freedom and this gift of life. But there's, there's more.

• 2:35:04Jocko Willink?

  There's more.

• 2:35:08Jocko Willink?

  Because, you see,

• 2:35:13Jocko Willink?

  the rest of us,

• 2:35:17Jocko Willink?

  we grow old.

• 2:35:23Jocko Willink?

  And time passes us by.

• 2:35:31Jocko Willink?

  And that, that simple and sincere affection that Sidney Jerry describes,

• 2:35:39Jocko Willink?

  it changes

• 2:35:42Jocko Willink?

  as we change.

• 2:35:47Jocko Willink?

  It ages

• 2:35:52Jocko Willink?

  as we age.

• 2:35:58Jocko Willink?

  But the fallen do not change.

• 2:36:04Jocko Willink?

  The fallen do not age. Time has no effect on them. They remain.

• 2:36:15Jocko Willink?

  They remain young and bold and brave and unconquerable.

• 2:36:30Jocko Willink?

  And so, we remember them that way.

• 2:36:37Jocko Willink?

  As they were and as they will always be.

• 2:36:49Jocko Willink?

  Our heroes.

• 2:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Heroes who walk no more and yet walk everywhere with us.

• 2:37:03Jocko Willink?

  Who smile no more and yet they never stop smiling.

• 2:37:12Jocko Willink?

  Heroes who live no more yet never stop living.

• 2:37:26Jocko Willink?

  Our friends who shine no more.

• 2:37:34Jocko Willink?

  And yet never stop shining.

• 2:37:43Jocko Willink?

  And that is the other gift that they give us.

• 2:37:54Jocko Willink?

  The fortune.

• 2:37:58Jocko Willink?

  To bask in their light.

• 2:38:08Jocko Willink?

  And to remember.

• 2:38:22Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 2:38:26Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight.

• 2:38:42Jocko Willink?

  So, Echo, maybe if I...

• 2:38:51Jocko Willink?

  You could talk about something else for a little while.

• 2:38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:56Jocko Willink?

  I would appreciate it.

• 2:38:57Speaker 01

  Sure. You know, a part that kind of stood out, and we talked about this before, where there was that part where, you know, the Germans, the bayonets, they were attacking 150 yards away. And they just get mowed down, they just get killed. And then

• 2:39:17Speaker 01

  the red flag comes up. Stretchers come out. Everyone sees fire, it's kind of like, you know, they're following these specific rules.

• 2:39:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:27Speaker 01

  And then, so they, they collect the bodies and they salute, kind of like, okay, we're, we're good. And then he salutes back, okay, solid. Now, game on, essentially game on now. But this is like a war, though. You know, it's different. I mean, you kind of get that same feeling way on a lower level, obviously. But like, you ever watch like a UFC fight, and then the round ends? And then the guy's kind of like bump gloves, kind of like, good round, you know?

• 2:39:52Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  But two seconds ago, you, you guys were trying to knock the guy out. You know, just like in this situation, two seconds ago, these guys were coming to kill you, and you killed them, killed them.

• 2:40:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:05Speaker 01

  Boom, it happened, round over, you know, let's essentially continue following the rules. And it, it's weird because it's less about the rules and more about like the respect, you know?

• 2:40:16Jocko Willink?

  It is, and, and on top of that, you can pile on the fact that when they were in Hoven Woods, the Germans had booby-trapped the, the British bodies, so they were just laying there. They didn't, they didn't get the, they didn't get the same respect back.

• 2:40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:33Jocko Willink?

  But I think that's one thing that, that Sidney Jerry is very intent on throughout the book, is that regardless of how

• 2:40:43Jocko Willink?

  depraved the enemy acts they are gonna take the high road yeah and you know I think that's why this book is this book they give this book to everyone at a at Sandhurst which is the the British Military Academy they give it to everyone and that's a great reason why because he sets a standard with his troops and they hold that standard through regardless of the way the enemy behaves they don't lower themselves to that behavior you know the worst atrocity that gets committed by his soldiers is when they spank a Waffen SS guy on the ass yeah you know that's that's why this book is so powerful and and you know there's a lot of

• 2:41:26Jocko Willink?

  the book is very it's very you know there's there's stuff in there that you you just aren't ready for right um even when he was talking about the the traits that someone should have and you you know when you start thinking about it

• 2:41:41Jocko Willink?

  he's right yeah he's right and if you had the choice between getting some meathead that was gonna go do your bidding even though he might look like a big beast and he's gonna but then if you think about how's that guy gonna act when things get tough or when things become ethically challenging yeah how's that person gonna act so these are

• 2:42:03Jocko Willink?

  and it's and I love the fact also that man he's killing people he's lead you know it's easy to get caught up in the fact that he's wearing corduroy pants and he's got this there's a part there's another part I didn't didn't go over in the podcast but there's there's a group of of um German there's like German some kind of artillery piece and an artillery team and they're getting the the Brits are getting their guns dialed in to the team and they're gonna start killing them and they make a run for it and they have horses and there's like six guys and some horses towing this this artillery piece away and Sidney Jerry feels happy

• 2:42:47Jocko Willink?

  He's happy that the, he's especially happy the horses, like, you know, he doesn't like seeing the, the, the, the animals get killed.

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:54Jocko Willink?

  And so he's actually happy that these guys escape. And then he just says, you know, well, that's wrong because these guys are gonna come back and kill my soldiers.

• 2:43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:04Jocko Willink?

  So he does a, he, you can see how hard it is for someone to be in these situations where you have the good conscience, which wants to do the right thing, and at the same time, you gotta kill people.

• 2:43:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:20Jocko Willink?

  And that's a, that's what makes combat so hard.

• 2:43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even kinda gets you thinking back, remember the Christmas, um, the Christmas truce, yeah. Where the Germans, the Germans kinda, in that situation, they initiated that, right? They were, they were like, come.

• 2:43:38Jocko Willink?

  It was like a mutual initiation, but yeah, yeah, yeah, if you remember that particular story, but I think overall, it was almost like a mutual initiation. But yes, in that particular story, there was sort of a voice that says, hey, it's okay.

• 2:43:48Speaker 01

  I won't shoot you or whatever, and yeah, man, it's, it's just crazy how that can kinda emerge from these situations where guys are just straight up getting blown to pieces, on purpose, by the way. Not, you know, not like some tragic accident, like this is, that's the intent, that's the intention. And then they wanna just stop and sing together, play soccer.

• 2:44:11Jocko Willink?

  And then the next day, by the way, they're going back to killing each other en masse.

• 2:44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, dang.

• 2:44:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's the thing about,

• 2:44:20Jocko Willink?

  you know, the, yeah, you know, this, a book like this is so revealing of human nature because business people have to do the same thing.

• 2:44:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:29Jocko Willink?

  You, you know, if you're a business person and your business is losing money, well, guess what you might have to do? Cut staff. You know, if you gotta, and you, you know, we, let's say we're working with a small business, or you're, you got, you've got a small business, you got 20 people. You know all those 20 people.

• 2:44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:45Jocko Willink?

  It's not like a nameless person that you're firing.

• 2:44:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:44:48Jocko Willink?

  When you let go four or five people because you need to save money next quarter, or you're gonna lose your building.

• 2:44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:55Jocko Willink?

  Guess what? You're gonna know those people.

• 2:44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:58Jocko Willink?

  And so it's the same dichotomy where this boss who wants to take care of his people, just like Sidney Jerry wants to take care of his men. And all of a sudden, the only way to do your mission is you gotta kill, you gotta, you're gonna get some of these people killed. Are you gonna fire some of these people? Otherwise, our plant shuts down. Otherwise, we can't go forward.

• 2:45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:16Jocko Willink?

  And everyone dies. No one has a job now. So the similarities, again, that's why it's, that's why these things about war reveal so much about human nature, which is really what this podcast is about. It's about human nature. And the better you understand human nature, there's two things that can happen. Number one, the better you can lead other people. But equally as important, if not more important, is if you understand human nature, you can understand yourself.

• 2:45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:43Jocko Willink?

  Can understand the decisions that you're making. You can understand why something's bothering you. You can understand what you need to conclude so that you can move forward in the best possible way. And if you don't understand human nature, you're, you're, I mean, that's understanding yourself.

• 2:46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:01Jocko Willink?

  And these books allow you to gather and garner so much of that.

• 2:46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially all the similarities. So many, all the time. I remember in, not junior high, yeah, it was junior high, um, maybe early high school. So when I used to play Pop Warner football, where my best friend played for a different team. But we're all, you know, it's in Pop Warner, it's different. It's not by school. It's by like region, you know, like not region, I guess town. Like I'm Kauai, there's no regions in Kauai, I don't think. Anyway, so the, you know, my best friend at the time, his name was Byron. He, uh, who became a pilot, by the way.

• 2:46:45Jocko Willink?

  In the military?

• 2:46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, Army or Marines, I forget. Anyway, um, he played for a different team, but we were best friends. So it was kind of that thing, you know, where you're friends with the guys, but then, you know, you go on the battlefield and you guys are battling, then you're back to friends. It's just weird.

• 2:46:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're not killing them, though.

• 2:47:00Speaker 01

  No, way different. Yeah, I understand. Did you ever see that in Iraq, like any of that, like, I don't know, compassion?

• 2:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

• 2:47:09Speaker 01

  Even with the enemy types?

• 2:47:11Jocko Willink?

  Not, not so much with the enemy types.

• 2:47:12Speaker 01

  That's what I mean.

• 2:47:13Jocko Willink?

  But with the civilian types, for sure. I mean, I mean, obviously, and you'd see guys would go completely out of their way to try and protect a civilian. Uh, the enemy over there i- is a lot.

• 2:47:26Speaker 01

  It's different though.

• 2:47:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, there's a, there's a, there's, you know, here you have a uniformed soldier.

• 2:47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, there you don't have a uniformed soldier. You got somebody that's trying to sneak around and, and blow you up with an IED. And.

• 2:47:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't see that same level of now. I mean, once you get a guy captured, that's it, you know? Okay, we got him captured, zip him up, put him in the back of the Humvee. I mean, that's it.

• 2:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:53Jocko Willink?

  So. You definitely, what, what he talks about is this, this mutual respect of like, look, we're sitting in a slit trench getting mortared. And when I, like, when I meet you, you're on the other side, but I know that you've been slitting, sitting in a slit trench getting mortared all day.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:48:13Jocko Willink?

  That's why we have mutual respect for each other.

• 2:48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:16Jocko Willink?

  In Iraq, it's asymmetrical warfare. So they're not suffering the same type of situation.

• 2:48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:22Jocko Willink?

  And, and they also, you know, one thing that, that really throws that stuff out the window is the way that the insurgents treated the civilian populace.

• 2:48:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, so, so we're witnessing non judicial murders, like when executions, we're seeing that, we're seeing civilians getting tortured. We're seeing, you know, people being beheaded. And so when you see that, you're there trying to help these people and you start to think, look, the, if you're another infantryman in an opposing army, I can, I can empathize with you. I can understand what you're going through. But if you're, even if you're another army, but I see you raping, torturing, murdering, burning people alive, I don't empathize with you anymore.

• 2:49:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:09Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't work that way.

• 2:49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:10Jocko Willink?

  So, not really.

• 2:49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 2:49:14Jocko Willink?

  Now, you would get, occasionally, you'd get. Like you could tell that someone would be mixed up in something that they shouldn't have been mixed up in.

• 2:49:21Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:49:22Jocko Willink?

  Maybe a young kid.

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, maybe a seventeen, eighteen year old. Cause, cause some of those kids, some of the insurgents were not vehemently, you know, pro Al Qaeda. Some of them were just, hey, look, I'm gonna get paid fifty bucks to put an IED in the road.

• 2:49:40Speaker 01

  My gig, yeah.

• 2:49:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and if you paid me fifty bucks to go and plant, you know, crop over there, I'd just as soon do that.

• 2:49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:47Jocko Willink?

  So you'd see some of that, there'd be, okay, look, this, this kid's just, you know, he's just caught up in something he doesn't understand and. Then again, I mean, all, again, the dichotomy is if you're putting an IED in the road to kill Americans, bro, I don't care about you. And I wanna kill you.

• 2:50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:05Jocko Willink?

  That's all there is to that. And, and. But it's definitely a different scenario when the, when the people that you're fighting are.

• 2:50:15Jocko Willink?

  Are the ones that are committing these kinds of atrocities, cause even as these guys, you know, they, they, you'd see how he differentiate between like the Waffen SS. And like a normal infantry group. He differentiates those two.

• 2:50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:26Jocko Willink?

  That'd be like if, let's say the war in Iraq was against, let's say Al Qaeda had taken over Iraq. And you were fighting either the hardened Al Qaeda guys or some normal, you know, infantrymen from the Iraqi army.

• 2:50:38Speaker 01

  Like army.

• 2:50:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, those guys you'd have been like, hey, look, this dude surrendered, okay.

• 2:50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:42Jocko Willink?

  The, the Al Qaeda guys, first of all, they're probably not gonna surrender.

• 2:50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:45Jocko Willink?

  And if they do. That's, they're gonna not get the same treatment that a, that a guy that's a victim of circumstance.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:53Jocko Willink?

  Right? A lot of the Germans are a victim of circumstance, hey, that, this guy came into power, I was a soldier, I'm still a soldier.

• 2:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:01Jocko Willink?

  You know? And.

• 2:51:05Speaker 01

  Man, it's heavy.

• 2:51:06Jocko Willink?

  It is. But there is a definitely a mutual respect that you have for, for another serviceman. That's, you know, has been through the same kinda crap that you've been through.

• 2:51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, man, makes sense.

• 2:51:21Jocko Willink?

  So with that. Speaking of heavy, lifting kettlebells.

• 2:51:29Speaker 01

  Anyway, I feel like we should talk about Onnit, Onnit, great kettlebells. Again, I do feel spoiled, even every time I pick them up. Even though they're dope, you know, the artistic ones. Should we call them artistic?

• 2:51:41Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:51:41Speaker 01

  Cause they have names, right? Primal bells.

• 2:51:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just call them that. That's better than artistic.

• 2:51:45Speaker 01

  Legend bells. All that stuff. You know, I feel kinda spoiled, cause they're kinda like the designer ones. They're designer-ish. Balanced, by the way. You know, I got into that, um.

• 2:51:59Speaker 01

  Here's the thing about the kettle, and I said this before. Starting light with kettlebells is critical. My friend Anthony came over. I don't know if you remember Anthony?

• 2:52:09Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:52:09Speaker 01

  He was there the, the, the first day we recorded, he was at my house.

• 2:52:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember.

• 2:52:15Speaker 01

  So he came over the other day and he was like, "Yeah, yeah, let's lift." And, you know, last time I seen him, I wasn't so much into the kettlebells. So I was like, "All right, we're doing this thing. Be careful." And I saw him and he had, I don't think he'd ever done them before.

• 2:52:25Jocko Willink?

  Did you hurt him?

• 2:52:25Speaker 01

  No, but...

• 2:52:26Jocko Willink?

  Borderline.

• 2:52:27Speaker 01

  Well, he just, he grabbed the lightest one and, you know, I said, "Start light or whatever." And you could tell his... I'm gonna say this with all due respect, if you haven't done it before. It makes sense, but like, his form was way off and I'm thinking, "Bro, you're gonna get hurt right now."

• 2:52:41Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be careful.

• 2:52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I was gonna go into like, what crazy workout I did, but I'll save that for another time. For now.

• 2:52:48Jocko Willink?

  We're almost at three hours right now.

• 2:52:50Speaker 01

  For now.

• 2:52:51Jocko Willink?

  I just looked at my watch, 2:53. That's not a good sign. So, I apologize to everyone in the world for doing a three and a half hour podcast, which is gonna turn into, if Echo describes his last 14 workouts.

• 2:53:04Speaker 01

  Four and a half hours.

• 2:53:05Jocko Willink?

  In great detail.

• 2:53:06Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, so, well, uh, krill oil, real quick. I was talking to somebody at the muster. I think it was... I forget who it was. Nonetheless, I was talking about the benefits. Yet again, this is like a common thing. It's true. I don't exaggerate about the krill oil. It's the kind like, I can't go back to not taking krill oil.

• 2:53:25Jocko Willink?

  No, take the krill oil.

• 2:53:26Speaker 01

  And I don't mind.

• 2:53:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, actually, we were talking to Leif. Remember Leif said he ran out of krill oil?

• 2:53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's all mad at me, cause he gave me some.

• 2:53:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, he held you over.

• 2:53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, technically, technically, it was Jenna Lee who brought me some. I think he just gave the order. Nonetheless...

• 2:53:41Jocko Willink?

  He gave the order.

• 2:53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess he, you know, had a part of it.

• 2:53:44Jocko Willink?

  Got the credit.

• 2:53:45Speaker 01

  Yep. Nonetheless, I'll never go back to no krill oil.

• 2:53:48Jocko Willink?

  So where would you get it?

• 2:53:50Speaker 01

  Onnit krill oil.

• 2:53:51Jocko Willink?

  What if you wanted to save money?

• 2:53:54Speaker 01

  Go on it.com slash Jocko. There's a lot of things on there. And Onnit is one of those good companies slash website where anything you need, like anything you need supplementation with, all the way down to workouts, they got it on there. Try your best not to get too addicted to the website because it's very vast, very robust.

• 2:54:14Jocko Willink?

  You're the only person that has that issue, bro.

• 2:54:15Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I will guarantee people will spend time like watching the videos and stuff, browsing the products. Sometimes you can get like, we talked about the, you know, you get on Amazon and you're like, "Yeah, I want to get that thing too." You don't really need it. It just looks super cool. It's one of those websites.

• 2:54:33Jocko Willink?

  Amazon does that.

• 2:54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so be careful. It does, but I don't think it like prompts you. It's just the list of stuff is all cool, you know? It's not just a kettlebell. It's the really cool one, you know? So it's that situation. Anyway, on it.com slash Jocko if you want the 10% off. And yeah, report back. Tell me what you think. And if you ask me about the krill oil, I'll tell you. I'll tell you to the end of time. I will not, not take krill oil ever again, if I have anything to say about it. Another way to support is when you pick up your copy of 18 Platoon or whichever books you choose that Jocko reads on this podcast. Go on our website, JacoPodcast.com. Go to the books section. On the top it says, "Books from episodes." Click through there.

• 2:55:19Jocko Willink?

  Heads up, if you're looking to get 18 Platoon, the book, you actually, you can get it on Amazon, used.

• 2:55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:55:27Jocko Willink?

  For like 40 bucks, a used copy, which they'll all be gone.

• 2:55:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:55:32Jocko Willink?

  By the time whoever you are listening to this. You can also get it from a website, RiflesDirect.com, which actually supports the rifles regiment in the UK. So you can get it there as well. Or you can buy the used hardcover copies from Amazon.

• 2:55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:55:52Jocko Willink?

  Dot com, after you click through.

• 2:55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, click through there. Boom. And you know, even if you're buying something else, hey, click through. Support the cause. Anyway, another way, subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, and...

• 2:56:11Speaker 01

  Any other podcast providing platforms also and not excluding YouTube.

• 2:56:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:18Speaker 01

  YouTube's a good one. Video version.

• 2:56:21Jocko Willink?

  I got YouTube Red, by the way.

• 2:56:22Speaker 01

  Okay, wait, wait, what's the benefits again?

• 2:56:24Jocko Willink?

  One of the benefits is on YouTube Red, you can listen to, even if you go to another app on your iPhone, it's still playing. So it's a real, it's a real cool deal for me.

• 2:56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh yeah, man, sounds real cool. I like the ads.

• 2:56:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know you do.

• 2:56:39Speaker 01

  They're relevant most of the time.

• 2:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:41Speaker 01

  Unless you see the same ad over and over and again. You know what though? You know when they play, you ever see the same, well, you don't see ads anymore.

• 2:56:48Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:56:49Speaker 01

  But for us who may or may not enjoy ads and or still have to.

• 2:56:54Jocko Willink?

  You're the only person that enjoys ads. You got issues, dude.

• 2:56:57Speaker 01

  You know, you know how, like, here, for example.

• 2:57:01Speaker 01

  So Ty Lopez, right?

• 2:57:03Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I know. Good God.

• 2:57:05Speaker 01

  He'll have like an ad every single time.

• 2:57:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 2:57:07Speaker 01

  You know, there's this other financial company, which is a weird one, which is, it's a really poorly done nonetheless. So Ty Lopez, here's the example. Ty Lopez, he'll be like, he'll talk about some stuff. And then after, it's the same ad over and over. And after a while, you're like, okay, okay, skip the ad. But then it kind of sticks with you. And then you're kind of like.

• 2:57:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's called advertising. You're getting sucked in.

• 2:57:28Speaker 01

  But yeah, but it's kind of like, I see what's going on, yet I still am compelled, you know? So it's like, it's kind of like, it's beneficial almost.

• 2:57:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm over here not compelled.

• 2:57:37Speaker 01

  So not compelled, huh?

• 2:57:38Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:57:39Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 2:57:40Jocko Willink?

  But I am compelled to subscribe to YouTube.

• 2:57:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, okay. There you go.

• 2:57:45Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're trying to say. You're saying a lot of other stuff right now. Most of which is not helpful.

• 2:57:49Speaker 01

  Right, going on these tangents and it's relevant. I feel like people can relate on some level. Sometimes. Maybe.

• 2:57:56Jocko Willink?

  Occasionally.

• 2:57:56Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:57:57Jocko Willink?

  Weird people.

• 2:57:58Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, YouTube, that's a good one. Video version.

• 2:58:01Jocko Willink?

  What's the, what's Jocko Podcast is the channel.

• 2:58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jocko Podcast, yeah, sure.

• 2:58:08Jocko Willink?

  It'd be cool if you put videos on there more often.

• 2:58:10Speaker 01

  I do. I put like two, three a week, I think.

• 2:58:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, two, three a week now.

• 2:58:14Speaker 01

  Kind of.

• 2:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Okay, good. I'm looking forward to that new epic number.

• 2:58:18Speaker 01

  I put one on the other, what is it? Monday.

• 2:58:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay, that's one. It's. It's whatever it is right now.

• 2:58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:58:25Jocko Willink?

  Thursday, Friday.

• 2:58:26Speaker 01

  No worries. I got you. Go ahead. Subscribe to that if you haven't already. And you can get the video version and excerpts, which are shareable. Shareable, meaning they're just shorter and they're shorter. So, you know, whoever opens it, they're gonna, there's more of a chance they're gonna listen to it when it's two, three minutes long, rather than two and a half, three and a half, in this case, hours. Long. That's just how.

• 2:58:50Jocko Willink?

  You get fired from doing podcasts because they're too long. Is that possible?

• 2:58:54Speaker 01

  Maybe. I guess how they say.

• 2:58:57Jocko Willink?

  What else?

• 2:58:57Speaker 01

  Want anything is possible, right? That's the thing. Um, what else? Uh, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko's Store. Website jockostore.com. See? Catchy, right? Easy to remember. If it's a store and it's Jocko's, it's Jocko's Store. If it's a podcast and it's Jocko's, it's Jocko Podcast. If it's, you know. If it's keychains.

• 2:59:19Jocko Willink?

  I was meeting some people.

• 2:59:20Speaker 01

  Jocko Keychains.

• 2:59:20Jocko Willink?

  I was meeting some people, talking to some people at a group the other day, who are not familiar with me or with anything.

• 2:59:30Speaker 01

  Gotta respect.

• 2:59:30Jocko Willink?

  And they, they said, oh, well, you, do you, uh, you know, one of them said, oh, he's got a podcast. And then the other one said, oh, what's the name of the podcast? And I said, oh, the podcast is called Jocko Podcast. And she said, this one girl said, did you pay your marketing team a lot for that name?

• 2:59:51Jocko Willink?

  And I said, yes, in fact, I did.

• 2:59:53Speaker 01

  Yep. Exactly right.

• 2:59:55Jocko Willink?

  Real original like that.

• 2:59:56Speaker 01

  Yep. So original, but hey, man, you know, could be worse. So, back to the store. Jocko Store, that is. There's some t-shirts on there. If you want to represent, uh, you know, the t-shirts carry a message. The message has.

• 3:00:12Speaker 01

  Layers. Actually, I guess technically the shirts have layers because the message is one of the layers of the shirt. Anyway, go on there, jockoesther.com. If you like something, get something. That's a good way to support.

• 3:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Are there shirts coming out this week? That's my question to you.

• 3:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the intention.

• 3:00:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cuz I'm getting angry.

• 3:00:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I understand. I understand. But hey.

• 3:00:31Jocko Willink?

  Don't make me get in your business.

• 3:00:32Speaker 01

  Hey, normal face. Normal face. Normal face.

• 3:00:34Jocko Willink?

  My face is way normal, but don't make me come and get in your business and do your job for you.

• 3:00:38Speaker 01

  Alright, alright.

• 3:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Cuz if you've ever heard me talk on this podcast, I talk about when people don't do their job, that's awesome because then I can take their job from them.

• 3:00:44Speaker 01

  Right, right. You gotta step down.

• 3:00:45Jocko Willink?

  So just think about where I'm, where my mindset is, and you may wanna step it up over on your end.

• 3:00:49Speaker 01

  Oh dang, you're about to jump into this. Oh, alright.

• 3:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:00:53Speaker 01

  None of our respect, I um, I dig it, and we're gonna try to get that, those shirts up for you.

• 3:00:59Jocko Willink?

  No, let's do.

• 3:01:01Speaker 01

  You know why you're saying this right now? Because you can't wait for the shirt that you designed to come out, cuz you want the recognition.

• 3:01:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, cuz also, I think you're, I think you might be sabotaging, and sabotaging my efforts. I made the better shirt.

• 3:01:17Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 3:01:19Jocko Willink?

  And you don't wanna print it, because you're self-conscious, and that's not gonna stand.

• 3:01:26Speaker 01

  Well, I will give you the respect, because there is, in fact, layers to this shirt as well. So, alright, how about this?

• 3:01:32Jocko Willink?

  More layers.

• 3:01:33Speaker 01

  More layers. Oh yeah, yeah, you could be right. I think you might have more layers than the standard. I guess we'll see. We're gonna find out about that one. Anyway, jockoesther.com. Some women's stuff on there as well, some patches, some rash guards, some cool rash guards.

• 3:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Indeed.

• 3:01:50Speaker 01

  Some hoodies, other stuff. Anyway, go on there, check it out. If you want something, get something. Good way to support. Also, psychological warfare. If you're having trouble, if you're having trouble,

• 3:02:01Speaker 01

  if you're like me, and sometimes used to, or currently, having trouble with not feeling like working out, not feeling like it, so you're considering skipping the workout, waiting for tomorrow, making your workout day into a rest day, if you're having that problem, this is what you do. Go to psychological warfare, search on iTunes.

• 3:02:21Jocko Willink?

  Google Play, Amazon.

• 3:02:22Speaker 01

  Amazon, all these things, anywhere where you can get MP3s. You search psychological warfare, Jocko Willink, and it's an album.

• 3:02:32Speaker 01

  With track. And these tracks will help you through anything that you're feeling that weakness. Like I just mentioned, whether it be waking up early or skipping the workout or cheating on the diet. And I say cheating on the diet because you made a promise to yourself, you're not going to eat those donuts. You made a promise and then now like all of a sudden. Eat the donuts? No, that's not the promise you made.

• 3:02:54Jocko Willink?

  Just think, I can never eat a donut again, for sure.

• 3:02:57Speaker 01

  Exactly right. You can't.

• 3:02:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause everyone in the world will like someone will be there with a, with a camera.

• 3:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:02Jocko Willink?

  And they'll get me. A big jelly donut in my face.

• 3:03:06Speaker 01

  And consider this, like, what if you knew 100% no one's, you know, watching or whatever, and then you're eating the donut? Do you, can you imagine the guilt you're feeling?

• 3:03:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm feeling too much guilt.

• 3:03:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't do it. You're done. Donuts done.

• 3:03:18Jocko Willink?

  Too much guilt.

• 3:03:19Speaker 01

  Yep. But in the event of other people, not you, Jocko, other people feeling that weakness. There's a track for that. Remember back? When iPhone kinda came out and there's that thing, there's an app for that, remember? They used to always say that?

• 3:03:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there's an app for that?

• 3:03:36Speaker 01

  There's an app for that. That was like an expression. See? Look, with this, there's a track for that. See what I'm saying? Just made that up right now. Anyway, psychological warfare, check it.

• 3:03:48Speaker 01

  If you need that, that spot, cause really that's what it is. It's a spot in life. When you're trying to lift heavy things, it's good to have a spot. If you're lifting light stuff or not lifting at all, you don't need a spot.

• 3:03:59Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 3:03:59Speaker 01

  So don't even worry about that. If you're not doing nothing, don't even get this. You don't even need it. If you're not doing anything in life, don't get it. See what I'm saying?

• 3:04:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:07Speaker 01

  Makes sense, right?

• 3:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Get it. Check.

• 3:04:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, right.

• 3:04:09Jocko Willink?

  All right. Like I said, 18 platoon, you can get that at riflesdirect.com from the UK. It supports that regiment, which I'm all about. Also, you know, speaking of rash guards and stuff, check out originmaine.com. My boy up there, Pete Roberts, he's kind of a, he's kind of a psycho, actually. Kind of a madman. He's all about manufacturing in America, which I'm all about too. And I'm going to go into this at some point, but like he wanted to make ghee's here and he couldn't get the fabric. So he went out and bought old abandoned looms from abandoned factories and hired like old timers that knew how to work these things and refurbish them and rebuild them.

• 3:04:49Jocko Willink?

  And has made these looms, brought them back to life so that he can make ghee's and rash guards here in America in Maine. And like I said, that's kinda crazy. Borderline psychopathic, which I kinda like. And yeah, that's kinda why we're kinda working on joining forces in some way.

• 3:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Origin, Warpath. It's going down. We're gonna make something happen. I'll keep everyone informed as we finalize the plan.

• 3:05:21Speaker 01

  That rash guard that you mentioned?

• 3:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:24Speaker 01

  And posted the video. That was a lot nicer, is a lot nicer and legit than I anticipated.

• 3:05:31Jocko Willink?

  When you see it.

• 3:05:32Speaker 01

  You underplayed it. You were like, yeah, well, you didn't underplay it.

• 3:05:35Jocko Willink?

  I made it sound like just kind of cheesy.

• 3:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you.

• 3:05:38Jocko Willink?

  But you didn't realize it was actually savage.

• 3:05:42Jocko Willink?

  But the thing is, that rash guard, it's, I had already sold out. You know, so now he's printing a bunch more, but there, but he's gotta, he's gotta weave the material.

• 3:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:05:53Jocko Willink?

  Right? Or gets, he gets one of his producers here in America, weaves the material. So anyways, check out that originmaine.com. Growing company. We're getting in league with them. Big time. Also, Jocka White Tea on Amazon. Here's a, here's an actual, again, this is a certified, verified report. I have a cat that used to catch one or two mice per month. I forgot to pick up a tea bag after I brewed it. And the cat ate the tea bag. Now my cat is bringing home raccoons, full grown rabbits, and even the neighbor's dog. So be careful. Don't let your cat get it unless your neighbor's dog's being annoying. No, that's Jocka White Tea.

• 3:06:36Jocko Willink?

  You can have it. And it's not, doesn't taste, the thing is, doesn't taste like normal tea. It tastes like victory. Alright, Way of the Warrior Kid. Boom. Also, this is a warning about Way of the Warrior Kid. When you order Way of the Warrior Kid, just go ahead and also order a pull-up bar, some flashcards, some healthy food, and a jujitsu gi. Cause when your kid gets done reading this factually, they're gonna wanna be stronger, better, tougher, and smarter. So supply them the way they need to be supplied. Quit playing around. Get some. Also, the Discipline Equals Freedom field manual.

• 3:07:17Jocko Willink?

  There's no book like this. Doesn't exist. It is not a normal book. It's kinda like the podcast. This podcast is not for everyone. Not everyone wants to listen to this podcast. That's okay. I'm not making a podcast for everyone. We're making a podcast for people that like to get after it. So, this book is not for people that wanna read, um, junk.

• 3:07:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:07:47Jocko Willink?

  Some people don't get the podcast. Some people aren't gonna understand the book. They're not gonna know where it's coming from. That's okay. I'm not, I'm not.

• 3:07:59Jocko Willink?

  I'm not to- we're not toning down the podcast, right?

• 3:08:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:08:03Jocko Willink?

  We're not saying, "Oh, you know what? I think everyone would like it more if we did more, you know, interspersed some, some jokes throughout it. And maybe if we made it forty-five minutes and do a little fun presentation. Can I get some backup music? Just to kind of a little jangle to make people get in the spirit." We're not doing that.

• 3:08:21Jocko Willink?

  Not happening.

• 3:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:08:22Jocko Willink?

  If you wanna listen to a little jangle or a little, you know, metallic riff to get you in the zone on the beginning of the podcast, that's cool. If you want that, that's awesome. There's other podcasts that offer it. We don't offer it here. You know what you're gonna get. With the book, if you're looking for a, you know, um...

• 3:08:39Speaker 01

  Fifty Shades of Grey?

• 3:08:41Jocko Willink?

  You're not gonna get that here. It's, uh, but that's the cool thing. The cool thing is that the publisher let me do whatever I wanted to do. So I did. And I made, you're gonna feel, you're gonna feel that the, that the feeling of the podcast

• 3:09:00Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:09:00Jocko Willink?

  is the same feeling that the book gets you.

• 3:09:04Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 3:09:05Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 3:09:05Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 3:09:06Jocko Willink?

  It's a little heavy.

• 3:09:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:09:10Jocko Willink?

  A little dark, right? Spars, right?

• 3:09:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Get after it. That's in there. Anyways, Discipline Equals Freedom, Field Manual. Order it. It's, it's not printed, I'll, I'll give you an, let me give you an example. It's not printed on white paper.

• 3:09:28Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 3:09:28Jocko Willink?

  So, so straight up, let's just go from there.

• 3:09:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:09:31Jocko Willink?

  It's actually printed, the background is all images.

• 3:09:37Jocko Willink?

  Black and white images. I know that comes as a big surprise to everyone.

• 3:09:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:09:42Jocko Willink?

  And then put over that is words. So, there you go. Little indicator as to what the field manual is like. You can get that, you can preorder it now. Of course, Extreme Ownership, it's a little book, it's about leadership. Actually, it's about combat leadership. And how you can take the combat leadership principles that we learned on the battlefield and apply them to your life. You can get that book too, if you want it.

• 3:10:07Jocko Willink?

  We also have Echelon Front Consulting. Me, Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke. We will come and help your team align your leadership so you can crush your enemies. You just heard Sidney Jerry saying it. Leadership is the thing that makes you overcome seemingly impossible things. So if your leadership isn't squared away, you're not going to overcome them. So you need to get in the game. You can contact us, [email protected], if you want that.

• 3:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Also, the muster, we just got back from the Austin muster.

• 3:10:43Speaker 01

  Outstanding.

• 3:10:44Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding. It was awesome. So many great people in there. Lessons learned, knowledge spread.

• 3:10:52Speaker 01

  Tim Kennedy was there.

• 3:10:54Jocko Willink?

  Tim Kennedy showed up. Uh, and it was cool. And I didn't realize it until we were at Jiu-Jitsu. And I think I came up to you and said this during Jiu-Jitsu. So the last night, we had Thursday, then Friday, and then Friday night we go do Jiu-Jitsu. We went to 10th Planet at uh, Austin, Austin 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu with my boy Curtis.

• 3:11:15Speaker 01

  Curtis, Todd White was there.

• 3:11:16Jocko Willink?

  And Todd White, old school, represent. Yeah, he's an old school. Like, he's, me and him are from the same era. Yeah, we're, we're from the same era. From back in the day. Only he's, only he's

• 3:11:30Speaker 01

  A better artist than you.

• 3:11:31Jocko Willink?

  A better artist than me.

• 3:11:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:11:33Jocko Willink?

  So, when we went and, and what I realized is this.

• 3:11:38Jocko Willink?

  You know like, uh, Way of the Warrior Kid? People say, "Oh, man, I wish I had that book when I was a kid."

• 3:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:11:43Jocko Willink?

  And Extreme Ownership? People say, "Oh, man, I wish I had that, I wish I had that book when I started out in my, you know, when I got promoted five years ago." And you know what I say about Way of the Warrior Kid? "I wish I had it when I was a kid." You know what I say about Extreme Ownership? "I wish I had it when I was a assistant platoon commander. I wish I had it."

• 3:12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:02Jocko Willink?

  I didn't have it. And what's cool about The Muster is, so that feeling, when you go to The Muster, you're giving just like, we're just giving this massive amount of information, pragmatic information that you can take and you can execute with.

• 3:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:17Jocko Willink?

  And so, when we were at Jiu-Jitsu, I realized, man, we just, all this, these people in this room just got all this information. And it, and it's so practical that you can take back to your team. And then on top of all that, here's a little something else, Jiu-Jitsu.

• 3:12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:34Jocko Willink?

  Because, um, only one quarter of the people that came to Jiu-Jitsu had ever trained Jiu-Jitsu before.

• 3:12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:41Jocko Willink?

  The other, what was it, 50 people? That had never trained before. So they're getting this gift.

• 3:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:48Jocko Willink?

  The gift of Jiu-Jitsu.

• 3:12:48Speaker 01

  The little intro.

• 3:12:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 3:12:50Jocko Willink?

  Little intro and they'll, I would say 50% of them will go back and start training.

• 3:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:55Jocko Willink?

  Maybe more. I wish it was 100%. Yeah, it might be. It might be.

• 3:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. It did be, yeah, it depends on what you're into. You're right.

• 3:13:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's hard. It was always bizarre to me that when I introduced someone to Jiu-Jitsu, it wasn't a 100% conversion rate.

• 3:13:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 3:13:09Jocko Willink?

  It should be a 100% conversion rate.

• 3:13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:11Jocko Willink?

  100%. "Oh, you just choked me and I couldn't stop you? I need to learn that 100%." Otherwise, I go through life vulnerable to being choked by anyone. I don't like that feeling.

• 3:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I don't like that feeling. The Muster 2 is sprinkled, and I don't, and I mean hard, sprinkled hard, by the way, which is a very critical compelling part, in my opinion, is this, the social stuff. And I don't mean social like you're just cruising and not learning. I mean, the people you meet.

• 3:13:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, well, you definitely are gonna meet the good people there.

• 3:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Because everyone there is in the game big time. And they're all looking to get better. They're all invested to get better.

• 3:13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:46Jocko Willink?

  And, and the other thing is, You know, we're hanging out.

• 3:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:50Jocko Willink?

  I say it all the time.

• 3:13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:13:51Jocko Willink?

  No, there's me, Leif, Dave, JP, Echo. We're not, there's no green room. It doesn't exist. We don't even take breaks. Just like when, when, when we take a break to let the audience like, go to the restroom or grab a, you know, a cup of coffee or a jock of white tea. We, we, we just, we just stand there. Like we step down off the stage and we get everyone lines up and we talk questions. And you know what I was doing this time was I was like, instead of answering one person's question just to that person. I was saying, hey, everyone come here. Cause he's asking a question. Everyone come in.

• 3:14:24Speaker 01

  Whoever's nearby.

• 3:14:25Jocko Willink?

  Hey, hey, there's, there's, there's 12 people standing in line.

• 3:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:14:29Jocko Willink?

  Instead of answering this one question, this one guy whispering, no, hey, everyone come up here.

• 3:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:14:34Jocko Willink?

  And you can all hear this because who knows? Maybe there's some of those questions, maybe it's something you're going to experience in the future. I don't know. But you might as well listen and maybe you have a better solution than I have.

• 3:14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like a, like a little.

• 3:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Little brainstorm.

• 3:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, brainstorm. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. That, that's true. You, we take breaks. Everyone, we're, there's breaks throughout the thing.

• 3:14:53Jocko Willink?

  No, you take breaks.

• 3:14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jocko and Leif don't take breaks. Cause break time is talk time to you guys. Come up and ask a question. Yeah.

• 3:15:01Jocko Willink?

  Sign a book.

• 3:15:03Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 3:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:15:04Speaker 01

  No green room.

• 3:15:05Jocko Willink?

  No green room. So that's the muster. Um, and by the way, they've sold out. All of them that we've done have been sold out. Now, the next one that we got coming up is September 14th and 15th. Back at the Omni Hotel in downtown San Diego, California muster 004. It's gonna sell out. This is a known fact. So if you want to come, it's September 14th and 15th. That is right around the corner.

• 3:15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:15:29Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to come to that, come to that. Extreme ownership.com is where you can register if you want to. Also, by the way, this is interesting. If you train jujitsu or if you're interested in training jujitsu.

• 3:15:45Jocko Willink?

  Origin up in Maine has this immersion camp that they do.

• 3:15:52Jocko Willink?

  I'm going. Echo's going with me. We're going up there. It is, there's two sessions that they run. It's the 20th, August 20th to 23rd, or August 24th through the 27th. Those are the two different sessions. Or you can come for the whole week. Anyways, I'm gonna be there for those middle three days, like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So I'm gonna be there for the last day of the first camp and the first day of the la- of the second camp. And I'll be on there on the middle day. We're gonna be training, rolling, talking, hanging out, eating lobster, eating steaks. Uh, just generally getting after it. So you go to originmaine.com. If you want to come up, there's not a lot of spaces for that.

• 3:16:34Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, it's not, that's like, I think the most they're gonna go is 200 people. So that's not a lot of spaces. So if you want to come up, register quick and I'll see you guys up there in Maine. I'm gonna, what I like about it is unlike the muster where everything is scheduled, like we don't have a lot of break time. And even the break times we're working, this thing, I mean, you can only train jujitsu, what, six hours a day, maybe? You know what I mean? Two hours in the morning, two hours at lunch, two hours in the evening. So that's six hours. You know, you're gonna sleep four hours. So you still got 14 hours left in the day. So what are we gonna do?

• 3:17:13Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna kick it. Yeah, we're gonna cruise. There's a lake, there's kayaks, there's a zip lines and whatever. Yeah, or we'll just go lay in bed and try and recover from the jujitsu sessions. So yeah, um, bunch of good people coming up. You need after that. If you want to come up and hang out, do it. And that will work. We'll see you up there either at the muster or we'll see you at the immersion jujitsu camp.

• 3:17:40Speaker 01

  Wait, how do you register for that one?

• 3:17:41Jocko Willink?

  Originmaine.com and then you click on the immersion thing and you'll find it. You, or you press Google.

• 3:17:49Speaker 01

  Figure it out.

• 3:17:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:17:51Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 3:17:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a certain element of like, if you can't figure it out.

• 3:17:55Speaker 01

  Don't bother.

• 3:17:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's also a certain element of like, hey, register now and go to this thing.

• 3:18:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, today. Register today. You know, they always say today.

• 3:18:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know they say that. Today, by the time this podcast comes out, it won't even be today.

• 3:18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'll be like.

• 3:18:11Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, all right. Also, until we're at one of those events, if you want to roll with us, virtually, we are on the interwebs. The Twitter, the Instagram, the Facebook people watch.

• 3:18:34Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thank you to everyone for listening to this podcast and for supporting this podcast, which, by the way, is made possible by our military, who protects our great nation from evil. This podcast is made possible by police, law enforcement, firefighters, EMTs, first responders that keep us safe and orderly here at home.

• 3:19:11Jocko Willink?

  And it's made possible by each and every one of you out there, working in the economy, making and creating and building. So don't stop doing that.

• 3:19:26Jocko Willink?

  And don't ever stop remembering those that went before us.

• 3:19:38Jocko Willink?

  Those that still shine down on us and remember that we are not here long.

• 3:19:49Jocko Willink?

  And time is fleeting.

• 3:19:53Jocko Willink?

  It is ever fleeting, so you might as well make it a good, hard run.

• 3:20:03Jocko Willink?

  And get after it.

• 3:20:07Jocko Willink?

  So, until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 3:20:15Jocko Willink?

  Out.