Adam Kay: "I was told to man up!" Coping with PTSD and mental health stigma

Just man up. This is essentially what Adam Kay was told when a traumatic day at work left him with PTSD. In this chat with Fearne, former doctor Adam explains why he made the decision to leave the medical profession, and puts a spotlight on the poor mental health of our NHS workers. Adam talks about how, in his case, the job left him feeling paranoid and overcautious, and how he turned to diary writing to process his emotions. They chat about how we can all chip away at any mental health stigma in both the workplace and at home with loved ones, and offer advice for how to put together your own mental health toolkits for crises of varying severity. A Particularly Nasty Case by Adam Kay is out in paperback 2nd July (published by Orion). CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains frank conversation about suicide. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Nicole LaPera https://pod.fo/e/40cd32 Sam Claflin https://pod.fo/e/385d6d Jamie Laing https://pod.fo/e/340299 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Before we start, this episode contains some chat you might find difficult to hear, so do check the show notes for more details. Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that looks at the moment that can change the course of a life. Today, I'm chatting to Adam Kay.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  If it wasn't PTSD, it would have been something very similar to that. And, you know, no mention of counselling, no mention of time off, no debrief afterwards. And so until I started talking about it and dealing with it just by saying it out loud, I was, you know, waking up at three in the morning, back in that operating theatre with my pulse going 200 beats a minute and like in an actual cold sweat.

• 0:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my good God, there's only two weeks until the first Happy Place Festival of the summer. Ah, I mean, obviously I'm mega excited. I love nothing more than being there with as many of you as humanly possible and just feeling joyful. But obviously I'm nervous. It feels like I'm throwing my own birthday party twice a year, every year. And, you know, you want everybody to have a good time. If you're throwing a party, which I think the Happy Place has that energy, yes, there's like calm moments where you can go and meditate or go and do a sound bath and chill out, but it's a good vibe, energy. It's like a big party. And I am obviously incredibly nervous, as you are when you're throwing

• 1:27Fearne Cotton?

  a big party, that everyone has a great time. I want every single person who walks through our entrance to feel the joy that we're trying to create and try something new, maybe learn something new about themselves, or get some new perspective on life or a problem that you're going through. That's what it's there for. Certainly the talks tent, you know, that's where we've got all of these amazing, helpful talks. I walk away each year going, oh my God, I didn't know that, or that's changed my thought patterns on this. I want it to be as well as enjoyable, like really practical and helpful. So if you haven't been before, do come along. If you've been before, there's even more good stuff this year. I've got

• 2:09Fearne Cotton?

  so much going on. But let's get to today's chat because I've wanted to have Adam Kay on the podcast for ages, not only because I'm a big fan, but also my son Rex, who's 13, is obsessed with his books. My son will not read fiction. He's not remotely interested. He wants science, anatomy books and Adam's kids' books.

• 2:29Fearne Cotton?

  Are so entertaining, yet highly educational and interesting. Like Rex will read me parts from his books and I'm like, I didn't know that. I mean, obviously left school a thousand years ago, but it's just brilliant. He's written loads of fiction and non-fiction for both kids and adults, based on his former career as an NHS doctor. His first book, of course, This Is Going to Hurt, really opened a lot of eyes as to what life as a doctor is actually like. And, I mean, that book is just phenomenal. I read it back when it first came out, but I reread it ahead of this chat and it's full of hilarious and heartbreaking anecdotes.

• 3:10Fearne Cotton?

  He manages to make the book entertaining and funny, but deeply sad at times, too. He came into the Happy Place Studios wearing, I mean, an outfit that I would have chosen for myself, quite frankly. I loved every item of clothing. He had a polka dot shirt, but like giant polka dots. This kind of PVC crackled jacket, and I'm going to call it like aubergine. Great slacks and then burgundy loafers. Dream outfit. I couldn't be more in love with Adam if I tried.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  And this is Boots Off.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.

• 4:22Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. This is the show.

• 4:45Fearne Cotton?

  Adam Kay, first of all, I'm so obsessed with your outfit, I don't know what to do. Oh my god, I hadn't seen the socks!

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, they're vaguely, vaguely matching.

• 4:54Fearne Cotton?

  They're matching your shirt.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  I mean, this is ideal chat for a podcast.

• 4:59Fearne Cotton?

  I just, you're like, you were so on trend with the polka dots, I didn't see it coming today. And I want the jacket and the shirt, and I've got those shoes already, so.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  I mean, my admission about the shirt is I can't take, vulgar it because my, my three-year-old chose, one of my three-year-olds chose it.

• 5:15Fearne Cotton?

  They're quite good stylists, kids.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not bad. I, you know, I was, I was, I was looking between a couple of them and she said, I'll go for that one.

• 5:22Fearne Cotton?

  Like that, go for that one. Just a three-year-old comment. It feels like this has been a long time coming, us having this chat.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:30Fearne Cotton?

  Why has it happened before?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 5:32Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know. I mean, we've sort of communicated because you very kindly let me write a piece for your beautiful book where you collated people's memories, stories and poems about the NHS a while back.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Over Covid, no, it was a really lovely piece.

• 5:45Fearne Cotton?

  And I was so honoured to be asked to do it. So thank you first of all, but I'm so glad that we are face to face today.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  IRL.

• 5:53Fearne Cotton?

  IRL. Also, your kids' books are the most read books in our household.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Oh, no way.

• 6:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, my son will not read, he's not into fiction, so he's reading all of your factual books.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:06Fearne Cotton?

  Kay's Anatomy, he loves. Your book about medicine, which is Kay's.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Kay's Marvelous Medicine.

• 6:11Fearne Cotton?

  We were reading that last night.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, and there's one about inventions, if you like an invention.

• 6:14Fearne Cotton?

  We've got all of them.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Okay, fine, yeah.

• 6:16Fearne Cotton?

  We love doing True or Poo, which is your true or false game.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:20Fearne Cotton?

  We play that constantly.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 6:22Fearne Cotton?

  And also last.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  I've got a whole book of True or Poo's, I'll send you one of those.

• 6:25Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, well, we need that. That's like our favourite bit of the night. But also, like, he'll come up with really, like, as I said, he's, my daughter loves to read, she'll read fiction for hours. My son, I have to, like, beg him, pick up a book. But your books, he loves facts, so it's so good because you're learning through this very entertaining medium of you telling these wild stories. He was saying last night about. The Egyptians believed that we ate food and it was digested by our hearts and then.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a good guess, but they didn't quite.

• 6:51Fearne Cotton?

  Didn't quite get it right. Yeah.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  I mean, it's so interesting. I'm so, I'm really thrilled that this has been his sort of entry point into reading. I get so many messages from parents saying, I thought my kid was a reluctant reader and it turns out they just needed a different type of book. And it's really cool because it's the National Year of Reading.

• 7:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  And I think embracing all the different sorts of things that books can be is is often like the way in for kids. So like my books, you know, I've written some fiction now for kids, but my non-fiction books, they're sort of they're their own sort of thing because they're funny, silly, disgusting and full of facts. But it means you don't need to follow a whole chapter.

• 7:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Through. You don't need to have to hold all that in your head. And I think I get a bunch of messages from parents of neurodiverse kids in particular saying the fact that it's in little chunks.

• 7:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Helps a lot. And, and hooray, because like, reading is, you know, non-fiction as well. And it is graphic novels and it is putting an audiobook on the Tony or the Yota or whatever it is. So it all counts. It all, it all goes in.

• 7:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we love our Tony as well. That goes on before bed every night.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. That goes on holiday with us.

• 7:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's genius, isn't it?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  So it's one of our crucial items.

• 8:04Fearne Cotton?

  For like your survival, will it?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:08Fearne Cotton?

  They are so good. No, we, we are such big fans and it has been a real joy to see Rex actually wanting to pick up a book and get stuck into it. And also really good for sort of entry point sex education, your Kay's Anatomy book. Like loads of my friends have used that to have that initial moment with their children, sort of talking about sex and puberty. It's been really helpful.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you're welcome. Uh, it's just, um, yeah, I'm sort of, I'm slightly aware when I was writing the book that, because it started off, I was just doing all the, all my funny gross stuff and I'll teach you about the lungs and mucus and whatever. And then I was like, whilst I've got the kids trusting me because it, because I'm being funny and they're, they're friend. I can put in the more, you know, the slightly difficult stuff.

• 8:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And, you know, so there is that sex head stuff and I can talk about. And I can talk about body image and I can talk about all sorts of different things. They're well, hopefully, if I'm not being too preachy, you know, take some of it in.

• 9:03Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, not at all. I think that's exactly why it works is that they're like along with the ride of the humour and and they kind of learn, they're imbibing that educational stuff without even realising it.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's the, it's the same way that you, you know, chop up the vegetables small, isn't it? You don't, no one wants to think that, you know, that, you know, they're learning.

• 9:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  But it's all interesting stuff because I've always been obsessed with the, the body. But I think it's because you have to learn about it at school as part of a lesson. It never hits like the level of space or dinosaurs or something as a, a cool thing that people want to know about. But some other facts are, are wild and I thought that's, that's, that's, that's good stuff for kids to, you know, dig into.

• 9:45Fearne Cotton?

  Very much so. Like you say, you know, that's part of our, you know, science lesson at school that we learn about the body. But you didn't necessarily grow up thinking, I'm going to be a doctor. That's the route for me. It was something you kind of moved into.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:58Fearne Cotton?

  Over time.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Think so. I don't know what I, it's slightly unfair asking people what they want to do. I think eighteen, when you have to like choose to go to medical school, like, you know, no offence eighteen year olds, but you're an idiot when you're, I definitely was.

• 10:14Fearne Cotton?

  I was an absolute knobhead.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  And like, that's a, to say at the age of, actually sixteen, when you're choosing your A levels.

• 10:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  To say, oh, by the way, now you need to decide what you want to do until you retire. Good luck.

• 10:27Fearne Cotton?

  Mad.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I'd feel guilty about leaving medicine for, you know, in all sorts of ways. But I think part of it is that I didn't know what I was, like, if you go for a procedure or something, you sign the consent form. This is what's good and this is what the risk is. And then you sign it. I don't think it was informed consent for any eighteen year old saying, uh, off you go.

• 10:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  You're going to be a doctor now.

• 10:51Fearne Cotton?

  It's wild. I mean, your book, this is going to hurt, is now, is this, it's eleventh year? Am I right?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  I think it's nine years because I only know that. I don't have a great grip on, uh, on time and things like that, but I had. An email from the publisher saying we're going to do like a sort of

• 11:07Fearne Cotton?

  A 10 year anniversary.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and do I want to, you know, write a new bit?

• 11:12Fearne Cotton?

  I just reread it because I read it when it first came out. You know, it was everywhere. It was on, you couldn't avoid it back nine years ago.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry about that.

• 11:18Fearne Cotton?

  No, in a, in a good way. Everybody was talking about it. Everybody read it. But, and I could remember, obviously, it's all these incredibly moving and funny diary entries. But I thought, I really want to reread it because I loved it the first time around. But also to kind of go through your different stages of your career as a doctor. And remember some of the unbelievable and sometimes stories that make you absolutely wince. But you were prolific in writing these diaries. Did you, were you doing that even prior to your career? Was diary writing something you did as a kid?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Not that I did as a kid. But I've thought a lot about why I started writing these diaries. And I suspect it was my brain trying to find a coping mechanism for the bad stuff. So I just, you know, well, life was, life was not necessarily always good, but certainly very simple compared to a situation where you're at medical school, cutting up a dead body or having to, you know, and the, and the difficult situations you find yourself in when you're actually working as a doctor and the tough hours and tough everything. I found myself writing the funny, silly, disgusting stuff down. I don't know, to, to, I guess, look for the light in the dark, maybe?

• 12:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. I think that's an amazing way to process your day. When you've had a shit show of a day or just something that you're really struggling to mentally chew over. There is something about, I write everything with a pen. I'm, you know, not a book, I'll write that on my laptop. But if I'm writing notes for this or, or little diary-ized things.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Your notebook.

• 12:54Fearne Cotton?

  Just looking at my posh notebook. But there's something about like pen to paper that does help you get that clarity. Or at least like you're saying, extracting the good bits from the more unsavoury parts.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think that's exactly it. And it's, it's not the gold standard, you know, way of dealing with your emotions. But it's certainly a lot better than nothing. So like my coping mechanisms were writing stuff down and drinking white wine. And they both work, but neither of them are what the medical professionals would say is the, is the one you should, you know, reach for. But, you know, there's, there's huge value in it. And it was, and it also exercised this creative bit of my brain, which I think I've always. Had.

• 13:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  But was never, I don't know, was was never presented to me as an option growing up.

• 13:40Fearne Cotton?

  No, well, it's not in school, is it really?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Really, how many days?

• 13:44Fearne Cotton?

  The art.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  An English lesson, which was, and I did, you know, I had a really inspirational English teacher. But then again, the lessons were mostly like talking about the religious themes of Brighton Rock or something. Rather than like, you know, writing can be funny. It took it took me until university to read the first thing that made me laugh and think, oh, books are something. You know, coming back to talking about your kids and reading, it took me until I was much older than that to find that books are something I could enjoy. Rather than, I guess, endure.

• 14:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Or, you know, or be examined on.

• 14:19Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Or something like that. But in my, you know, my dad was a doctor. Friends of theirs all had, no one in their social circle had like a fun job. It was, you know, it was doctors and lawyers and accountants and, you know, and still servants and engineers and great. But there was no one, there was no one I could, did you have anyone in in your life who was creative when you were growing up?

• 14:46Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I mean, I'm from a working class family. So like my mum had about four jobs. She's like cleaner, delivering next packages and dental nursing, et cetera. But my dad was a sign writer for the whole of his career. So although it wasn't always his creative ideas that were being put down. Initially, back in the certainly eighties and some of the nineties, it was all hand on. So I'd go to the workshop and I'd see him and his kind of motley crew of people that would work with him and they'd all be, you know, using the stick with the ball and and doing this beautiful liquid handwriting with a paintbrush, which was mesmerising. And then it all got changed sadly and all the acrylic machines came in. So it became, oh, they just designed it on the computer and printed it out.

• 15:27Fearne Cotton?

  So I I definitely got to see like an arty side to something.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:32Fearne Cotton?

  It wasn't always like, I've painted this beautiful landscape because it was like, you need to make a sign for Wembley Stadium, go. It was that kind of thing. So I, so I sort of, I did to a degree, but I think it's. Quite rare, certainly in school, to look around, whether it's your parents, friends or whatever, and think, oh, I can see that that's possible, that I can be a creative writer, or an actor, or whatever it is, because it's sort of, it's more unusual. So.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 15:58Fearne Cotton?

  And I guess your route to creative writing was a windy one, because of course it came off the back of you writing these diary entries.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was never any intention when I was writing them that anyone would read them other than me.

• 16:09Fearne Cotton?

  And millions of people have now. I mean, can you ever get your head around that?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  No, it's best not to. It's like, it's like when you're watching one of these Brian Cox documentaries and said, you know, the universe has got forty-two squilly and stuff. You're like, you know, it starts, it becomes a bit upsetting if you try to process it. But like, for, because, you know, obviously I'm very open and honest in my non-fiction writing, you know, the fact that so many people know all this sort of weird personal stuff about me, I don't want to process it. So let's just say it's only you who read it.

• 16:42Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, it's just, it's just me. Obviously, the end of the book is, it was as heartbreaking to read the second time round as it was the first. And because it's been such a rollercoaster of different emotions, but a lot of humour in there, and you're extracting those sort of light moments from the dark, the end is even more heartbreaking. And, and the book ends with you, well, not immediately, but you realising that maybe this isn't the career for you.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:11Fearne Cotton?

  After you had the traumatic experience of being with a woman who, well, first of all, you had to deliver a stillborn baby, and then she was rushed off because she was losing an insane amount of blood. You knew that this was something extremely traumatic to go through for yourself as the, as the head doctor at that time in that operation. But you knew also, you'd probably go back to work the next day, which you did. And I guess that leaves you with a certain amount of undealt with business that you then have to look at down the line.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I didn't. I didn't examine it at the time. I wasn't given the opportunity to. It's a, the system isn't set up for looking after its own. So of all the people in this, I'm the, one of the people that's obviously affected the least, but you know, I'm, I was still in the room and it was still tough, you know, for me as the, as the, as the doctor involved. And it was a bit like I'd said I'd sprained my ankle or something. Oh, that's awful. You all right. But I mean, obviously you can do antenatal anything in the morning, right? Cause who else is gonna do it in a, a system that's got no slack in it at all. A system that says you're a bloody doctor and you bloody get on with it. And so, you know, no mention of, you know,

• 18:26Speaker 01

  counselling, no mention of time off, no debrief afterwards. And that was just the, the culture. The time it's getting better a bit.

• 18:36Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  It's getting better. You know, it's moving in the right direction, but still it's a, it's a tough gig in a lot of ways. I don't think I painted a particularly relaxing picture of being a, a junior doctor in that book or resident doctor as they now are. But those are basically the good old days now. That's before everyone moved to Australia. That's before, you know, we're now a hundred thousand members of staff short in the NHS and you know, a tough gig's become an almost impossible gig.

• 19:06Fearne Cotton?

  Well, well, that's what you say and you know, and you, you demonstrate that perfectly with a lot of the stories you're telling, especially the end of the book, being expected just to pick yourself back up and, and crack on with it and, and not have that time for reflection or examination.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  And so, and so I did go back, you know, I did do that the next day and the day after that and the week after that. But essentially I realised that whilst, you know, that wasn't a fatal blow for me, I was going to be able to, you know, pick myself back up and get on with it. I couldn't face that kind of thing ever happening to me ever again. And friends who, I didn't talk about what what had happened because doctors don't talk about that sort of thing unhelpfully. Friends would want me to feel better about it. And and the ones who knew what had happened would remind me, trying to make me feel better, trying to remind me it wasn't my fault, that on labour wards, all you want is a healthy mum and a

• 20:00Speaker 01

  healthy baby is your bare minimum. Sometimes you do have one of these big disasters where you see neither of those two things. And that's probably going to happen every five or six years. And it's not about how hard you trained or the qualifications you got. It's just a horrible fact of the job. And so I'd be told that. And then I had this sort of, I guess, this sort of depressing epiphany that I just couldn't face it ever happening. And so the best thing for me was actually to to step away. And I thought I'd step away for a few months and then and then, you know, find myself a different branch of medicine

• 20:39Speaker 01

  to go into, one which is, I don't know, there's no easy branch of medicine famously. But I mean, the, I was attracted to obsongayney, the labour ward set up by the height of the highs, but that's always set off by the depth of the lows. And I, I, I thought I'd, I'd probably needed to find somewhere where the highs weren't quite so high, but the lows I could deal with. And yeah, 15 years later, I'm still on my few months off.

• 21:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's taken you off on an extraordinary tangent, which we'll, we'll talk a lot about today. But I guess, you, even though you went back the next day, you weren't immediately able to continue operating as you had been. You sort of were left with a paranoia that you would double check, triple check everything, make sure that you were going above and beyond, which then I'm imagining exhausted you to a point of no return.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  It actually made me a worse doctor because.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  When I was on labour ward, you're aware of the labour ward setup.

• 21:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I've been there.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  You're plugged into the machine and it's recording baby's heart rates in labour for a lot of mums during labour. And you're sort of, you know, taking a view and it goes up a bit, goes down a bit and you sort of, oh, I'll pop back in 15 minutes. Anytime a baby's heart rate dropped a tiniest bit, I was like, cesarean section.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Because I wanted to prevent this sort of thing ever happening again, but even though I knew I couldn't. And intervening too much is just as bad as intervening not enough. And I knew in my heart, I wasn't actually being a good doctor when I was being over cautious and intervening too much.

• 22:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but completely understandable.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't know, it's, the NHS, as much discussed, I love and I think is our greatest achievement as a civilized nation. Healthcare that's free at the point of service, that's based on your clinical need, never based on your bank balance. I think that needs to be cherished and protected at all costs. I think it's perfectly possible to believe that on one hand and also believe it's often, I mean, one of the worst employers in the world. I don't think they look after their, their staff well enough. And, you know, I'm just one of a million people with a story of how they were, you know, slightly let down by their employer.

• 23:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, we do have to cherish it. It's so unbelievably important and so many of us rely on it or have. And, you know, like the book that I contributed to that you beautifully put together, it's touched so many people in huge ways, you know, in life-saving ways, in terms of having that one doctor or nurse who gave your relative or you that extra bit of care that, you know, that kindness, that human connection.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  It's so important. It's like, so in the States, the Gallup people, the polling people do a, one of the questions they ask the population every year is what's your biggest concern in life, what's your biggest stress? And every single year, the number one concern in life for people living in the US is the availability and affordability of healthcare.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Hopefully, no one in the UK has that anywhere near their, their, their, their top 10 worries. And that is a, that is a brilliant thing, but the healthcare system isn't buildings and it isn't MRI machines and it isn't bedpans and it isn't anything other than the people working there. And those are the people who need to be looked after. And that's what our overlords, you know, and senior management need to remember that that is what the NHS is. It's 1.1, 1.2 million people, you know, putting themselves second, fifth, a hundredth, so that other people be looked after.

• 24:39Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I, I experienced it so recently, my son had to go to A and E and he's luckily absolutely fine, but it was in the middle of the night.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 24:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, always. And, you know, sort of awake all night and I was sat there really, because I'd had a stint in hospital a couple of years ago. And I'm really, I was sort of borderline obsessed with doctors and nurses that, that, you know, they're up all night doing this gig, day in, day out. Under extraordinarily stressful circumstances a lot of the time. And we're in the kids A and E. And I was sat there just watching, there were maybe four or five nurses and then a couple of other nurses and doctors were coming in. At this point, it was 1am and I was kind of selfishly at, at the beginning thinking, oh God, I'm not going to get any sleep. I've got work tomorrow, this is fucking nightmare. And then I sat there and they were all joking around like Mickey taking one of the doctors. Then another doctor came in, they're all like had a little in joke and were laughing here.

• 25:33Fearne Cotton?

  And then one of the nurses came in to see us and was being really funny with my son, basically like trying to lift his leg in the air to see if it would move. And she was like, you're not very fit and had the sort of energy somehow at 1am to be larking around with my 13 year old. Having a giggle with him, going back, sitting with all of their teammates. And I just thought. Oh my, this is actually one of the jolliest things I've seen all year and it's 1am on the A and E kids unit. It was sort of a bit of a wake up call for me and extraordinary. And I'm just in awe and also the gratitude is like off the scale.

• 26:12Fearne Cotton?

  But that obviously isn't recognised within the system because people aren't looked after, as you say, or paid well enough to stay within the job. And it's underfunded, like, you know, it's a serious issue we've got here.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  It is and it's, yeah, and it's currently heading in the, in the wrong direction. And I don't know what the answer is.

• 26:35Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  To you.

• 26:37Fearne Cotton?

  I definitely don't and no one's expecting you to, but you've got the storytelling and the experience that I think alerts us to the fact that it is in trouble, we know that, but that we need to cherish it and something needs to change. And that's a systemic thing that's kind of.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and personally, I think we need to avoid the people saying the system doesn't work. It's broken, it needs to be totally replaced with, oh, here's a good idea with, we could have an insurance based system and this and that. And a lot of these people who say these things have skin in the game. They've been, you know, someone from that world's given them some cash and that hasn't, you know, necessarily. I've been, I don't know, anytime there's a two tier system, people fall through the, the cracks. And the extreme version is the system in America. And I don't, you know, I really don't think we should be.

• 27:35Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  We should be heading down, down that road.

• 27:37Fearne Cotton?

  No, that will leave so many people with zero access to any medical care, which is the, the worst nightmare for many people out there. It's not good.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  All my American mates, and I'm sure, I'm sure it's the same with you. One of the first questions about a new job is what, what's the healthcare situation?

• 27:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  It's like determines the job they take, such the area they live, such crucial decisions.

• 27:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Are based on, based on health and like, even though the, the execution of it at the moment sadly isn't as good as it needs to be. Cause there aren't enough people and there isn't enough, you know, resource and there is enough cash in the system. It's not like that.

• 28:15Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no, I know. We need to, we need to really, really cherish it.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Shh.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Shh. Anything else?

• 28:32Speaker 04

  Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Shh.

• 28:37Speaker 04

  Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson.

• 28:57Speaker 06

  I'm Jordan North.

• 28:58Speaker 05

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 29:01Speaker 06

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 29:03Speaker 05

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 29:07Speaker 06

  So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss.

• 29:13Speaker 05

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 29:15Speaker 06

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:18Speaker 05

  Just search Sexed It.

• 29:19Speaker 06

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 29:25Fearne Cotton?

  When you had hit that point of thinking, I really can't do this anymore. I love this job, but I cannot put myself through it. I mean, you describe it as PTSD. You had PTSD from this experience.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  I think I did. There's a, the only, you know, slight wobble on that is I didn't see a doctor to get the diagnosis because doctors don't like going to see doctors, particularly not about their heads. Doctors make the very worst patients. It's sort of, it's like a mechanic taking their car to a different mechanic. Why didn't you just sort it out yourself? You've sort of got that in your head. And as soon as it's about your, your mental health and that's times a thousand, you sort of, you really don't want to discuss this. But I was, you know, pretty much until I started talking about this stuff. When the book came out, that was pretty much the first time. It was the first time my parents knew why I'd left the profession.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  They, they knew I had, they didn't know I had. It was the first time my then-boyfriend, now-husband knew about why I'd, I'd left. And so until I started talking about it and dealing with it just by saying it out loud. I was, you know, waking up at three in the morning, back in that operating theatre with my pulse going two hundred beats a minute and like in an actual cold sweat. And if it wasn't PTSD, you know, it would have been something very similar to that.

• 30:51Fearne Cotton?

  So God, that's a hell of a lot to carry internally. I mean, I totally understand the the blocks that we feel when we don't believe we can say to our partner, to our parents, like, I'm struggling mentally, I don't feel well. It's a big hurdle to get over that many of us have had to eventually jump over.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:15Fearne Cotton?

  But that's a big deal to go through, the decision making in your head of, I'm leaving, I'm not going to be a doctor anymore, without actually saying to anyone you're, you know, in a circle, and this is why.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I I obviously knew that that wasn't healthy. But it wasn't until the book came out that I I realised it wasn't uncommon.

• 31:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And I started getting huge numbers of messages, you know, people who write into the publisher email the publisher or, you know, messages in social media, whatever, from doctors saying, all sort of in the same way, I've never told anyone this, but. And they'll tell me this enormous awful tragedy. And then they'll say, and I never told my friends, my colleagues, my, you know, my my partner, my anyone. It's just, I know, it's this cultural thing.

• 32:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  In in healthcare, and it's a really, really, really big deal. And people leaving isn't great, obviously, but that's not the, you know, the the real problem, essentially, is the healthcare system has a huge suicide problem. And it's something no one wants to talk about. And it's a huge problem. So every three weeks, a doctor in the NHS takes their own life. Every single week, a nurse in the NHS takes their own life. And that's just two of the huge jigsaw of professions that makes up a health service.

• 32:41Fearne Cotton?

  I'm I'm so sorry that I was totally ignorant to those.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  It's not ignorant in the slightest. It's a it's a function of the fact it never gets talked about because of stigma and shame and taboo and tradition and whatever it is, every time swept under the rug.

• 32:58Fearne Cotton?

  Gosh.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  And. And so, yeah, the the numbers seem unbelievably high and, you know, and they're and they're they're multiples higher in that profession than in than almost any other profession. And and the numbers aren't particularly improving.

• 33:16Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  And so something needs to be done because it it isn't. I'm sort of aware that I say, oh, I had this bad day at work and I couldn't hack it and I left. And it sounds a bit sort of, you know, poor old me.

• 33:28Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think that at all.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  It's it's a really big problem. And and I think we just need to remember and recognise that the people who do these jobs are are human beings.

• 33:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  But and you don't want to think of your doctors, nurses as human beings. So you, you know, you're going in a hugely stressful situation with an unwell child at one in the morning to an A and E department, and a doctor or a nurse says, you need to do this. And you want to think, correct, yes, that's what I need to do. I trust you. You're right. You don't want to think you're a human being who makes mistakes.

• 34:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Gets sick, gets sad, gets tired. All of you need to put that to the side.

• 34:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  And then you kind of start to believe that that your own myth that, you know, you're, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe I don't get, maybe I am just a bit different. And maybe I can just put these barriers up and not deal with these emotions. It's a it's a tricky one.

• 34:29Fearne Cotton?

  It is because every single human being in that role is going to be feeling probably every emotion every day. But if you're learning to suppress it and just go, nope.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:39Fearne Cotton?

  Not looking at that fear, that sadness, or that frustration that something didn't go well, whatever it is, that on a human level is going to build up into something that is unmanageable. Like, it's common sense.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. I mean, you can always put your feelings and your problems into a box.

• 34:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  It does work, but eventually that box is going to open.

• 34:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And you have no control about when that box is going to open. And so that is not the way to deal with it. So, you know, I can only talk of the healthcare professions about about medicine because that's the that's the trade. Training I had.

• 35:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I I dare say it's not hugely dissimilar in the other healthcare profession. So I went to medical school. I was there for for six years and then afternoon a week for my course was spent doing communication skills which and hooray. And that didn't used to be the case. You had a generation of doctors beforehand who thought you'd just sort of, you know, march in and announce things. So we taught communication skills, taught all these sort of, you know, brilliant techniques that you that you rely on about how to break bad news and all sorts of things, you know, and you know, and the nurse was being funny and silly and, you know, messing around with your son's leg. That that's all good communication skills. That that relaxes the person that, you know, not one point in these six years of, you know, an afternoon a week, did anyone say, sometimes

• 35:54Speaker 01

  you're going to have a bad day and this is what you do about it.

• 35:57Fearne Cotton?

  Well, sometimes someone will die on your watch and you've got to deal with that.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:02Fearne Cotton?

  That's something that is not anything a regular human in another job is gonna have to deal with.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:09Fearne Cotton?

  It's just not.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  It's just not. Out with, you know, the emergency services, you know, the front end, you know, medics, no one is frontline medics, no one is dealing with that. And you need to be taught how to, you need to be told the techniques. Like, when I applied to medical school, it was, have you got loads of A levels? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All in sciences, yeah. Do you have like other interests? Yeah, I could play the piano a bit. Yeah, okay, great. Okay, you're in. That that was it. There was no, that that's what it was. It was recruiting people who were good at science, who could, you know, play lacrosse.

• 36:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  I don't think that's necessarily how you get the best people at a job that's basically a job about communicating.

• 37:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  And a job where you have to be honest, not every person can do every job.

• 37:05Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  No, I, you know, the thought of me becoming a firefighter is is laughable. And hopefully at some point, someone would, you know, in the interview process, someone would check, I was actually up to the, there was, there was no, are you up to it in? And it's interesting because a friend of mine, good friend, worked as a, as a legal aid solicitor. And essentially was, was burning out and could see he was burning out and thought, I need to try something else. So he was like, I'm going to be a train driver. Love trains, quite like the idea of sitting in a, a cab on my own for a bit. And so he went through that and, and that's what he did.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Quite early on in the process, he had to speak to a psychologist who asked the question, if the very, very worst happens. When someone jumps out in front of your train, are you going to be able to deal with it? Let's work this through, let's talk this through. So if you want to, you know, be a train driver, you want to be an astronaut, if you want to go on Love Island, you'll speak to a psychologist at the start. If you want to be a doctor, now you'll probably be fine. And I think that's a, you know, and, and these are 18 year olds, they must, I don't know, I don't think we're doing it right.

• 38:16Fearne Cotton?

  No, I completely agree with you. If you're not looking after the people that are looking after everybody else, that is a recipe for disaster. And it is, you are dealing like, that is the thing that I get from this book, like the second time reading it again. Like you say, it's an impossible job that we're asking doctors and nurses to do.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:35Fearne Cotton?

  And it's that simple. And they're expected to do it day in, day out, under, you know, awful hours that they're having to often wake up, long hours that they're having to work.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  There's a thing in the book, um, actually I can't, no, I haven't, I haven't read the book cover to cover since I wrote it. So maybe, maybe this disappeared into, into the cutting room floor. But there was a, there was a moment where, um, we had this sort of on call room on the labour ward. Where on the rare occasions where there wasn't an emergency buzzer ringing for 20 minutes, you could lie in that and get 20 minutes sleep. And then you'd be, you know, and then, and then on with the shift. And the hospital in their wisdom decided that that was going to be shut down. That if you're at work, you should be at work and that means awaken. And I just, I don't know, as soon as that happened, my first thought was.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  If, you know, senior manager person, you or your or your partner are going into labour and a doctor needs to be, you know, called as an emergency to do a cesarean section or a von Tuss extraction or a forceps or whatever it is, would you rather that doctor has had twenty minutes sleep?

• 39:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Or you bolted the door so they can't and surely the answer is you're, and that's just a tiny example of not looking after people enough. My, um, so many examples, like a friend of mine who on the day of their own wedding had to do a morning clinic in full hair and makeup because they weren't allowed the full day off because the rotor didn't allow it. Um, you know, someone who, um, whose fiance was sadly admitted to intensive care unit as a patient and they weren't allowed compassionate leave to visit their fiance because the HR will say, oh, it's only if you're married or it's a first degree relative. These are, this isn't looking after people.

• 40:32Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  And this needs to change.

• 40:34Fearne Cotton?

  It really, it really, really needs to change so massively.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Otherwise they will just move to Australia. I was, um, I love Australia. I, uh, I've toured in Australia a few times and I'd say half of my audience, they're British.

• 40:51Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  British doctors. I, I spoke to a friend of mine who's moved out. He's a, he's an A and E consultant out there. He reckons that seventy five, eighty percent of his doctors in his department are Brits.

• 41:02Fearne Cotton?

  What are they getting right over there?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  What are they getting right? They're paying them more.

• 41:07Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  They are working them fewer hours. They recognise the work life balance and, uh, and the thing that's hardest for us to achieve, it's much hotter.

• 41:18Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 41:20Fearne Cotton?

  That one, we can't put any tax money towards that one sadly. That's not going to change it.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  But ultimately, they're treating staff with respect and treating them as human beings. And it's like, you know, if you're a resident doctor, junior doctor, as was, working in a hospital, once a year, get moved to a different hospital, which is fair enough, because, you know, working big hospitals, small ones, that some experts in this, some experts in that, make yourself the best version of yourself as a consultant, great. But this other hospital that you have no say where you're sent is often 80 miles away. And so what does that mean? I mean, unless you exist in a vacuum, that means, you know, saying goodbye to friends, you know, trying to convince a partner to move 80 miles.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  They might say yes once, they're not going to say yes seven years in a row, are they?

• 42:12Fearne Cotton?

  No, I mean, you've had a fair amount of dealings with putting this message out there and writing open letters to government. Do you get feedback? Do you feel a shift in the right direction with positive change?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  So yes and no. I think now it's recognised that hospitals need to be doing more to look after their staff. But when you dig into it, sometimes it's, you know, 40% off a mindfulness app and a Zumba class once a fortnight. And so better than nothing, but at the same time, not there yet. So it's, you know, I think it's really important to, you know, to keep banging that gong because it's a big thing.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Addition terms apply for all offers.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  And this is Boots Off.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature, the conversations just spill out of you.

• 43:52Speaker 03

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 43:57Speaker 03

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.

• 44:07Fearne Cotton?

  On a more personal note to you, when you decide to leave a profession like being a doctor, something you're also known as with your friends and your family and there's maybe not always the respect that you want at work, but there is a respect that you may be commanded, be like, oh, your parents, like, oh, my son's a doctor, you know, it's a badge that you that you wear. Losing that, did that make you feel lost, like you were slightly untethered, not having the doctor bit in your in your world anymore?

• 44:37Speaker 01

  I think, I don't know how much kudos I took from it, but it was certainly a big part of my identity. Because I hadn't, I hadn't taken a breath since school. I didn't do a gap year. There wasn't a gap between finishing my degree in medicine and starting work. I was just, and I was on this treadmill, you know, the house officer, senior house officer, registrar, senior, and sort of just moving forward, forward, forward. And then suddenly there's a power cut and the treadmill stops and it's, it's a bit, you know, that's not a good moment. And so it did take me a while to work out who I was, if I wasn't a doctor, because so much of my life was defined by it.

• 45:18Fearne Cotton?

  And what about the PTSD? Whether it was diagnosed or undiagnosed, you're waking up at 3am with a racing heart. You're dealing with panic, it's not a fun place to be. What helped you get through that?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  I mean, ultimately, and long term, it was professional help.

• 45:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yep, speaking to the people I should have been speaking to from the start. In the, in the medium term, it was, you know, before it was a book, this was me standing up on stage at the Edinburgh Festival, reading out from my diaries. And I would read funny, silly, gross stuff. It would be 95% just lols. And then I'd say this bit about what happened at the, at the end. Not, you know, it's a confidence trick, a bit like it's a confidence trick with my kids' books. They think they're getting just the funny, silly stuff, but they're being taught all of this hopefully useful stuff. You know, this is gonna hurt, it's sold as a funny book, but actually it's got this, this message in it.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And the live show, which I probably should bring back for 10 years, shouldn't I?

• 46:24Fearne Cotton?

  Definitely.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Do, do an encore.

• 46:27Fearne Cotton?

  You must.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Victory lap.

• 46:28Fearne Cotton?

  You must.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Okay, fine, deal, we'll do that. Do it. So, and I, and so I say this very, you know, it's a difficult story to hear. It's a difficult story to, to read out, but it was a very useful thing for me. Cause that was the first time I started to, to process it.

• 46:46Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you have to like, you have to confront it, to, to deal with it. It's, I think it, when we've got stuff that we're not able to even look at, and I've had this in my own life, like la la, fingers and ears.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:58Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know, like, how, you can't heal from that, cause you're not looking at it. So you have to do the worst bit ever, which is, and I think standing on stage, quite a literal reading out of your story. You're gonna be processing that every time you get up on stage and do that, to get your

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:14Fearne Cotton?

  brain in the headspace to go. Right, this is the reality of it. Now, how do I move on from it?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you're, no, that's, that's, that's very well put. And it, and it did, it did help me. But ultimately, what I should have, what should have happened is after this incident, there's even a term for this sort of thing. Healthcare professionals are described as second victims.

• 47:38Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  So it's like, it's like you learn at school that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That's whoever that was. Newton, someone like that.

• 47:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 47:47Fearne Cotton?

  We'll say Newton.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Say Newton. It's never equal what comes back, but there is always an opposite. And so this second victim term has, so the, the hospital should have been, right, now here's your debrief. Do you want to have any time off? And I'd probably said no, but just being asked that, might be, do you want to have counselling? I, I don't know if I'd have said yes or no, but again, knowing that the help is out there would have been a big thing. But I suspect the help wasn't out there.

• 48:20Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Even if I've asked for it, they'd have been like, nah.

• 48:23Fearne Cotton?

  But maybe even just the recognition that what you'd been through was very difficult could have been the first step in that. Because if no one's saying to you, God, I mean, this must be full on for you to carry the weight of this after what's just happened. If you've not got that, of course you're going to gaslight yourself and go, no, brush it under the carpet. I'm moving on. No one's telling me that. Like you can't, you need someone to mirror that back to you for you to go, God, this is something I need to look at here.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And ultimately, I did go and speak to my boss, my consultant about this. And, and it went badly. And I, I could have predicted it would have gone badly.

• 48:59Fearne Cotton?

  In terms of it was brushed under the carpet for you.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  It was basically a version of man up.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  That worst possible phrase, but I could have predicted because this was someone I had to address by his surname. It was so sort of hierarchical and militaristic and old fashioned and whatever that, you know, these consultants insist on being called Professor this, Mister that, Miss whoever. Like, that's, you know, if you're, if you're at the top of that tree, you should be taking your juniors out for a bowl of pasta.

• 49:33Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  A cup of coffee or a glass of wine, just to make sure that, you know, you know that every one of them, if they're struggling, can, can actually sit down opposite them. And look, hopefully, and I know the person in question is now, is now long retired. Hopefully those dinosaurs are no longer walking the earth and, you know, and now most of the consultants are, you know, are my age and hopefully people who take it more seriously.

• 49:58Fearne Cotton?

  I think, Jo, I've done a fair few talks, probably since Covid actually, in varying workplaces, could be a bank or an insurance company, whatever. And the one thing that I see again and again, in places that do take people's mental health seriously, is when someone at the top, the CEO or a line manager, someone who's got influence, shows vulnerability to their team. That seems to be a big game changer.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Exactly that. And there was a big thing on social media a few years ago, where doctors were taking photos of their antidepressants and their psychiatric medicines and, and that was hugely,

• 50:34Fearne Cotton?

  hugely helpful, yes.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Hugely powerful, exactly. Though I would say, there are now, I think there are now two types of mental illness. And this is something, I'm, I'm stealing these words from a character in a book, in a novel I wrote, uh, called The Particularly Nasty Case, which is about a doctor. It's a, it's a thriller and it's funny and it's all that, but essentially at its heart, it's about a doctor with bipolar disorder.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  And one in fifty ish people have this condition, which means probably one in fifty ish of the doctors. Yeah. In the world have this condition. And so I announced I was, you know, writing this, this book and, you know, and the blurb goes out and, and I've got people with this condition in my life, close to me, but other people got in touch when it was announced. Um, including two people I'm sufficiently close to, I was at their, their weddings to say, I've never mentioned this to anyone before, but I've got bipolar, he said. And it's like, we're talking about stigma before, the amount of stigma, no one would say,

• 51:44Speaker 01

  would hide a condition affected any other organ of their body. No one would say, oh, I've, I would never normally say this, but I'm diabetic. Or I've got asthma, or I've got psoriasis, or I've got anything, but this, these can do. So there's the, so the two types of mental illness, as I see it, there's anxiety, depression, OCD, all these things. And brilliant, I'm, I'm saying this is a good thing because it wasn't the case 15 years ago, but people will happily say, you know, I have this and, and, you know, this is what I take for it, or this is what I'm seeing for it. And that can become like a dinner party, pub, whatever conversation. And then there's the other type of mental illness, the schizophrenia bipolar, where people's instant reaction is often a bit to

• 52:29Speaker 01

  rear back and, and, you know, be a bit concerned, which comes out of, as all of these things obviously come out of ignorance. Yeah. To, to translating into fear and, you know, not, it doesn't get talked about. So I think there's a, there's still more of a, more of a journey. And, uh, and this, this character in the book, Etan, um, even though, you know, it's, it's, it's not high in the mix, but it's there. And all along, he's facing, so basically he reckons his, his boss has been murdered. No one else does. Police don't, colleagues don't, Corin doesn't. But he's really onto this. And the fact that he's got this diagnosis means that sort of everyone raises their eyebrow, that little bit.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Higher, he's always being seen through the the prism of his diagnosis.

• 53:18Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. This is why fiction can be equally as powerful.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:22Fearne Cotton?

  As a non-fiction book, because the messaging's in there, like you say, it doesn't have to be like the main theme of the book. But you've got a character who is impacted by that diagnosis and the judgment and the stigma around it.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:35Fearne Cotton?

  I think the more that we can have these conversations in myriad of ways, the better.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:40Fearne Cotton?

  So that it's just normalised it.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:43Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. I mean, how, you've got two children now.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  I do.

• 53:47Fearne Cotton?

  Three-ish.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Three-ish.

• 53:49Fearne Cotton?

  Three-ish. Um, how do, I mean, obviously they're too young to have these chats yet. But how do you think you'll approach that when it gets to later down the line? Whether it's talking about physical health or sex ed or mental health, you know, I am only now with my children talking about puberty and sex education. And every time I'm like, oh God, I should, I need to, and it feels like there's a discomfort, whatever. And mental health wise, even though I spend my life talking about it at work, I still sometimes stumble over like, how do I articulate this?

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Because you don't want to get it wrong. And in trying to not get it wrong, you sort of end up being stilted or say nothing.

• 54:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, it's really tricky.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Which is its own version of getting it wrong. But look, you don't, you don't have to do everything perfectly. You just need to have good intentions. And I think the generation above us said absolutely nothing.

• 54:39Fearne Cotton?

  Nothing.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  And that's definitely wrong.

• 54:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  And there's probably a version where you say too much.

• 54:44Fearne Cotton?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  But, um, I mean, we've started to, um, you know, we've, there, there are people, you know, friends and family in our, in our kids' lives who are significantly unwell in that way. And it's not something we don't talk about.

• 54:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  We just say, you know, person X is, is ill.

• 55:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  And we're visiting them in a, in a hospital or we're visiting in this place or that place. And that's just what it is. Cause you, you create your own taboos.

• 55:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  By making it weird.

• 55:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  And they have to be told.

• 55:17Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  That this is something to be, to be scared of or to, you know, to not like.

• 55:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. You've just got to start those conversations early.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you don't, if you don't make it. A bogeyman, if you're, if you can be, obviously easier said than done.

• 55:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Frank and open about it and don't make it a bit, oh, we don't talk about that.

• 55:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. And in terms of your recovery and whether it's PTSD or not, but your recovery from having panic and, and feeling that stress. Do you ever get little moments where it bites you in the arse again or are you, yeah?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do, but less and less and less.

• 55:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  And I don't want to pretend I'm some sort of poster boy for really looking after my physical or mental health, because I'm absolutely not. But I guess all I do do is treat my mental health like my physical health. And I guess make sure that I know what my first aid kit is at home.

• 56:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Like the basic stuff I can do, which is, you know, I can take the dog for a walk. I can stop what I'm doing at the moment. I can sit down and play the piano really badly. That, that's my, that's my thing I do that really, it takes me out of the world because I have to concentrate so hard on getting the notes right. That I can't think about anything else. So I've got my first aid kit and then there's like, you know, the equivalent of, you know, phoning one, one, one or popping to the pharmacist. And then there's knowing when you need to see the GP or, you know, or rarely go to A and E. So just sort of, just being able to spot the, the signs.

• 56:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. And are you better at doing that now, considering before you had a bit of a block with, I'm struggling? Are you quite good at going, okay, actually I need to have a second here to, to feel better, to feel well?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I'd say previously I was a one out of 10 and now I'm like seven out of 10. So.

• 57:07Fearne Cotton?

  It's good.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  It's good. It's better, it's better at this. And, you know, I don't know if I'll ever get fully better than, than that, but that's where we are.

• 57:16Fearne Cotton?

  Well, it's strange because I think culturally we're not, we're not told to prioritise looking after ourselves. We're just not. It's like, make sure everybody else is okay, especially when you're a parent. It's obviously a necessity, but we're never, we're, I think especially in British culture, it's like seen as indulgent to make sure that you're okay.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's very well put.

• 57:37Fearne Cotton?

  So you have to really go against the grain to go, I'm going to say no to that thing, or I'm going to choose to do this because I know it will make me feel better, rather than doing the 100 jobs that I'm meant to be doing over here.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. And I think, you know, medicine, working in that profession for a while has, you know, changed my, changed me and my personality in all sorts of good ways. Like I sort of, you know, I'm very good at thinking, well, no one's died. You know, I can sort of, you know, I can put things in perspective. I'm very good in an emergency. You know, if this room catches fire, I'll be very calm.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  They teach, they teach you at medical school.

• 58:13Fearne Cotton?

  Quite a lot of flammable stuff in here as well.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just thinking that. And I think, and my outfit isn't going to last long, is it? But it's like, one of the things they teach you is the first pulse you check is your own in an emergency. That's one of the things. You can't be an effective doctor when, you know, you need to get the baby out in two minutes, or someone's heart stopped, or whatever it is, if you're panicking. So you don't run to the emergency, you walk fast, but you're, you're not.

• 58:36Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  And so that has given me lots of, it's given me lots of positives. But one negative is my work-life balance. It's quite hard to shake that because in, when I was working as a doctor, it was 100 to zero. Oh, work, no, like there wasn't space for, for life. Like even if you were meant to go out for dinner or drinks, if the label buzzer goes and there's some great big emergency and you're there for two hours, there's no one to take over from you. You just, you've just become the flaky friend. And then by the time you've missed a couple of those drinks, they stop inviting you. And then you sort of end up with no life, so you just do work. So still, like, I don't know, I'm now self-employed. I should, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm very lucky as a writer because for a long time

• 59:19Speaker 01

  I was, you know, I would take any job that was going to help me pay the gas bill. Now, you know, I can pick and choose a little bit, which is a wonderful situation to be in. I can be creative in the ways I want. Nonetheless, anytime something goes in, I say, no, I have to say this. I have to make a way of make this work because what if it's the last thing I'm ever offered? And I think that's just a bit of that sort of, you know.

• 59:38Fearne Cotton?

  Wiring.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Wiring, yeah, exactly that. And, you know, I bring work on holiday.

• 59:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I, I get it. I get it. It's just, it's ingrained in you. It's how, it's how you work. It's how, it's why you keep churning out so many books.

• 59:52Fearne Cotton?

  But I, as I said, I'm a massive fan. I love what you're doing. I think this book, you know, although it's coming up to its decade, it's just, it's so important for, if anyone hasn't read this, I don't know who hasn't, but if anyone hasn't, it's such an important read and so entertaining to read. You know, it's a brilliantly entertaining book, but that also highlights all the changes that need to happen and a whole shift in respect and how we look at the work, the work at the NHS, the people who are involved, the humans, the humans behind it.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's, that's, that's the main word, isn't it?

• 1:00:24Fearne Cotton?

  It really is. And, and thank you for, for writing your brilliant kids books because they, you know, they're bringing my kids a lot of joy and education on the sly, which we absolutely love. Before we wrap up, two questions. The first is, we are creating a happy place playlist full of jolly music that makes us feel good. If you need to have that escapism, you need to go and walk the dog, what is that song that you're going to be listening to?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  So, I mean, it's, it's not a traditionally happy song, but there is joy in it. It's Daze, the Kirsty McCall version of the Kinks song.

• 1:00:57Fearne Cotton?

  I love Kirsty. Wow, that voice.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  And it's just, it's the best voice plus the best song. And it's, hopefully my funeral isn't super happy, but I've, I've told James, my partner, that that's the, that's the song to be played at my funeral because it is, is upbeat. And also hopefully now I've said this out loud on your, on your podcast, he will, he will remember it because, because occasionally he'll be like, what was the one? Is it Daydream Believer? Or sort of, no, it's not Daydream Believer.

• 1:01:26Fearne Cotton?

  Don't get the wrong one.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  So don't put Daydream Believer on.

• 1:01:29Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Just Daze, please.

• 1:01:31Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, that's going in. And lastly, Adam, what is your, or what or where or who is your happy place?

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Can I please have the Isles of Silly?

• 1:01:43Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I've never been.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  You must go.

• 1:01:45Fearne Cotton?

  I'd love to.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  But don't tell too many people to go. Actually, I shouldn't be saying this out loud, chilags, all these people are hearing. It's the most perfect, unspoiled, irritating to get to, but so wonderful when you get there spot. And even though it's only half an hour from Penzance, it's somehow its own climate.

• 1:02:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  And it's, it's, it's like, I don't know, it's like being a hundred years ago. And it's magical and peaceful and quiet and all the things my life isn't with two toddlers.

• 1:02:18Fearne Cotton?

  Of course it's not. It's the absolute opposite. Well, look, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's just been a joy and educational and important. So thank you so much.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:02:31Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Adam, what a brilliant human you are. I hope I get to hang out with Adam again. That's the feeling I was left with after that chat, like, well, I've got to do that again. Preferably over a glass of wine. He's just a joy to be around and cares deeply about the work that he's doing, the messages that he's putting out there and for us all to really care for the NHS. So what a top guy. Absolutely bloody love him. You can read Adam's novel, A Particularly Nasty Case, in paperback now. And obviously I urge you to read This Is Going to Hurt if you haven't. I mean, most humans have, but if you haven't, it's a must read. A massive thanks again to Adam and to you. You are the greatest.

• 1:03:33Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby.

• 1:04:14Speaker 07

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel. And Maisy Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey, Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yes. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.