Jo Ellis Served Her Country. Then They Made Her A Target.

Jo Ellis spent years serving her country as an Army National Guard aviator and Black Hawk helicopter pilot. She wanted to fly, serve, and be part of something bigger than herself. Then, after a deadly aircraft collision over the Potomac, a false rumor spread online claiming Jo was responsible. She was not involved. She was not even there. But because she was a trans service member, the internet turned her into a target. In this episode, Ryan talks with Jo about service, identity, courage, and what it feels like to have your life turned upside down by a lie. They talk about her path from helicopter mechanic to pilot, the SERE training experience that forced her to confront the truth about herself, the cost of being publicly scapegoated, and why one of the most Stoic things we can do is resist the urge to have an opinion about everything. Follow Jo Ellis on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/joellisreally | @JoEllisReally https://www.instagram.com/joellisreally Watch Jo Ellis on Kill Tony https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WYC-flN8Nc | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WYC-flN8Nc 🎟️DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! Grab tickets here https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ 🎙️AD-FREE https://dailystoic.supercast.com/| Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing toThe Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content:https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ 🎥 VIDEO EPISODES https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos| Watch the video episodes onThe Daily Stoic YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos:https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos ✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email athttps://dailystoic.com/dailyemail See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:15Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. There's an old joke on the internet that says every day there's a trending topic on Twitter and your goal is to never be that topic. Right? You might think you want everyone to be talking about you. You might think you want the whole eyes of the world on you. But if they are, it's almost certainly because something really bad has happened, or you screwed up in some huge way, or things are about to get real bad, real fast. Like, imagine going to sleep and you wake up and you're trending nationwide, but it's because everyone thinks you're dead. People are total strangers or posting your photo.

• 0:59Ryan Holiday?

  They're tying you to this tragedy. They're politicizing you and your identity. They're telling stories and lies about you that aren't true. They're incredibly angry. Imagine it's so extreme, so crazy that you have to record a proof of life video just to make sure the world knows you're still alive. And in the process, try desperately to defend your name. And that actually happened to the person that I'm talking to today. Jo Ellis is a Black Hawk helicopter pilot. She was in the Virginia Army National Guard for many, many years when she was suddenly falsely accused in January of 2025

• 1:42Ryan Holiday?

  of being responsible when that tragic, terrible airliner crash happened over Washington DC, right? A Black Hawk helicopter crashed into a commercial airliner over DC and 67 people lost their lives. And shortly after this happened, Ellis, who is transgender, was accused of being that pilot. And she was accused of this for no other reason than bigotry and sort of rage profiteering. People wanted to somehow take this tragedy and lay it at the feet of a minority, and then specifically the feet of a person, a veteran.

• 2:24Ryan Holiday?

  Hardworking member of our armed forces. They wanted to, to put it on that person to score internet points, to prove a point. I don't know. But anyways, this, this rumor spreads all over the internet. She becomes this trending topic. She starts getting hate messages and death threats. Imagine you get death threats after you are falsely accused of being dead. There's a whole bunch more to the story as we're going to get into the episode. This is not really about this current event. It's, it's about this incredible and fascinating woman who was also forced out of the armed forces as a result of what happened. But that's only a facet of this fascinating life. She sort of goes into hiding, handles

• 3:06Ryan Holiday?

  a bunch of stuff in her personal life, but then reemerges as a standup comic. Lo and behold, it turns out she's hilarious. If you saw her on Kill Tony, my intro is getting long, so I won't play it. But, but it was really, really funny and you should definitely check it out. I'll link to it in today's show notes. So in this episode, Joe and I are talking about this crazy experience. I was fascinated to ask her a bunch of questions about SERE training. That's Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape, which is the, the training that Stockdale went through, which I'm writing in my book right now. What it means to come to your breaking point, how you come to a realization about your identity. We talk about her experience being a trans person, being a trans person in the military. What happens when your private life becomes a public debate and what service means when

• 3:51Ryan Holiday?

  you are suddenly a headline. I think you're going to really like this episode. You can follow her on Instagram, at Joe Ellis. Really go see her perform standup. Enjoy this episode and follow Joe. She's a fascinating person to, to, to be tracking. So did you always want to be a helicopter pilot?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I wanted to be a pilot. I wasn't sure about helicopters, but definitely when I was little, looking up at the sky, seeing planes fly over. Very much wanted to be involved in in flight.

• 4:18Ryan Holiday?

  What took you to helicopters then?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Black Hawk Down.

• 4:21Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  The film. So the Ridley Scott film was just, not that I wanted to crash them, but you know.

• 4:28Ryan Holiday?

  That's the opposite.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  But just seeing them and seeing that movie and that came out around the same time that I was like 13. So like, it was kind of like that formative years of just like, I want to be a part of something greater and I want to fly. And those machines just looked incredible.

• 4:43Ryan Holiday?

  And so you started as a mechanic though, right?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  I did. I did. Yeah. So I started as a helicopter mechanic. My recruiter told me that's the best way to become a pilot is to learn everything about the helicopter. Not sure if that was entirely accurate.

• 4:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that sounds like something you would tell like an 18 year old who doesn't know anything because you're trying to meet a recruiting quota.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, it's definitely easier to recruit someone as a mechanic enlisted than it is to recruit them straight into flight. But there was a pathway to go straight to flight. I just didn't know it, but it worked out for the best because I did get a good understanding of the helicopter and a lot of experiences. And I ended up getting rejected from applying for flight school. I think I applied three times, got rejected twice. So the third time is when they finally accepted me.

• 5:26Ryan Holiday?

  When you were in high school, did you always plan to join the military? Was that like your career path? Was that common in your family or?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  It was like definitely in my mind, like service, you know, is in my blood and my, my great uncle fought in the Battle of the Bulge. And my grandfather was in the Navy during World War II. My cousin is Admiral Jim Ellis, who is now at the Hoover Institution. So like huge line of history and just always wanted to serve, but wasn't sure how.

• 5:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  My brother served in Iraq in oh, three as a tank driver. He was active duty. And so that kind of taught me like, oh, I don't think I want to be active duty. I don't know if I want to do that all the time. And so that's when the National Guard came up as an option and I was 19 years old and. You know, struggling to pay for college and always wanted to serve and just driving down Interstate 64, seeing Blackhawks fly over me and just like, yeah, I think I want to do that. Like, I want to fly. I want to be a part of something greater. And it all just kind of hit at the same time. And so what did, what did becoming a mechanic look like? What, what was that path? So I was like 15 weeks at Fort Eustis in Newport News, Virginia, and learning just how to work on them.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  So I started as a structural mechanic, learning how to like shoot rivets and bend metal and make, fabricate parts and patch holes and things like that. Lots of composites and stuff. And as soon as I got out of school, I immediately got deployed with my unit to Iraq. Yeah. And they asked for volunteers to be door gunners. Right. So I was like, sure, I'll do that because that, that'll put me in the aircraft. A little more exciting. Yeah, it'll put me in the aircraft that's closer to the front seat. Right. Right. So my whole idea is like, how can I get closer? And I mean, what 19, 20 year old doesn't want to operate a machine gun out of a helicopter while it flies? You know, so that's what I did. And that was a blast. And, um, you know, I was flying eight hour days, you know, just over the desert doing that whole life.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  But you're doing two jobs in the same. Yeah. So I would, one day I would fly, the next day I would work on helicopters in the hangars. And then the next day I might be on the flight schedule again, I would fly. So kind of leading to two different jobs at the same time. And you're, you're probably just starting to know this machine like inside and out. Inside and out, yeah. All at the same time. And in the meantime, I'm still maintaining a civilian career because you're guard. Right. You're part time. So I fell into E and just started doing like technical support, like help desk and started climbing that ladder too. I originally wanted to be a video game designer, but yeah. So I went to ITT Tech, which is funny because that school doesn't even exist anymore. Yeah, I remember all the commercials as a kid.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And they're like, video game design degree. And I'm like, yeah. So I learned a lot about like Adobe Creative Suite and just like graphic design type stuff. And dropped out of that pretty quickly just because it wasn't going to jump me into like a paying career. But tech support did. So here I am fixing computers. One day, the next day I'm flying in a helicopter and the next day I'm repairing helicopters. And then what's the path to, to actually getting to fly? So the path to flight is you have to put together a flight packet, which is like a huge application process. You have to get recommendations from people and then submit that to the military. And then you sit for a board and they interview you. And then if they give you the blessing, then you get to move on to flight school.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  So I did that twice, got rejected two times, ended up going for another military specialty, which is like another specialty on the Blackhawk, learning that job. And made it to staff sergeant, which is an E6. And I was like around 12 years of service. I was like, you know, I think I'm going to get out. Like, I never made it to flight. I didn't think it was going to be in the cards for me. And then on a whim, I decided to throw my packet together one more time, submit it. And then they accepted me. So I was like, oh, I guess I'm staying in this for a long term and I'm going to go to flight school. And that's 18 months of training. Yeah. In lower Alabama at Fort Rucker. And that involves warrant officer school, which is kind of like basic training again,

• 9:29Speaker 01

  but also with college level courses. So like a lot of military history courses, things like that, military writing. And then once you do that, you move on to SER training, which is a very brutal three weeks of training. And then after that, you go to primary flight training. So once you do all that, then you can actually start flying the helicopters. And you start out in a smaller aircraft, the Lakota, which is a UH-72 Eurocopter frame. And then you move on to your, what they call go-to-war aircraft, which for me, because I was guard, I already knew what I was going to fly. There was no like selection process for that. I just knew I was going to fly Blackhawks because Virginia only has Blackhawks. So that's the only thing I can fly. And so then I went to Blackhawk course and then finished that.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  So about 18 months later, I was a pilot. And this was like around 31 years old, 32 years old. How many hours do you think you have in a Blackhawk? Not a whole lot because I finished flight school in 2022.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And then I flew for about a year with my, my unit. So I've got about 300 hours total as, as a pilot, about a hundred as a crew member.

• 10:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Before and then.

• 10:39Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, right. Cause you're National Guard, so you're not in it every day.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. A hundred hours a year is typical.

• 10:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  For, even for active duty, like a hundred hours a year.

• 10:47Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  It's, it's like your standard minimums for.

• 10:50Ryan Holiday?

  And it's not like you just have one at home that you practice with.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  They don't let me take it home, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, so unfortunately it was cut short because of the, the military ban and everything. And so, so like, yeah, I couldn't fly anymore.

• 11:03Ryan Holiday?

  I've been actually reading a bunch about SERE training. It's fascinating because Stockdale, I'm writing about Stockdale and he, he obviously.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:09Ryan Holiday?

  You know, I just went through it. It was like a formative experience in his life, which it sounds like it was for you.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Oh, it's.

• 11:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know how much you dug into my story, but, but SERE training was a huge part of.

• 11:20Ryan Holiday?

  Tell people what it is, cause I don't think most people know.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's, uh, survive, evade, resist, escape.

• 11:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And it's a classified school, well, parts of the school is classified. So there's only certain things I can discuss, but like, there's a lot of classroom. There's a lot of how to make a shelter, like boy scout type stuff.

• 11:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Which is all unclassified, which is.

• 11:40Ryan Holiday?

  Like what you would do if you crashed.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you crash, like how are you going to get water? How are you going to get, make sure it's drinkable? Like what kind of plants can you eat? Like very basic type stuff that's, it's good to know. But then there's other aspects of it too. There's like a POW aspect of it. And, and learning how to resist when you're in capture. And, and then of course, some of the more dangerous parts can be the, the escape part or the rescue.

• 12:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  And so it's learning how to, if you're going to escape, how are you going to do that? And then if you're going to be rescued, like, how do you not get shot during the rescue process? Like, as things are going down. So good stuff, like really good stuff. I would never want to do that school again.

• 12:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  But it was probably the best school ever. That's also where I had my epiphany that I was suffering from gender dysphoria. There's a point in that training and you are placed in like sensory deprivation.

• 12:35Ryan Holiday?

  They put you in a box, right?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, a box. Yeah. It's more like a closet. So ironically, it's like I, I came out of the closet in the closet.

• 12:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  But no, it's like you could like do like this, you know, like there's enough room to like squat, move around. But anyway, you're in there.

• 12:52Ryan Holiday?

  It's probably to what mimic like being in an isolation.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  In a cell.

• 12:55Ryan Holiday?

  Cell.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  In a cell, yeah. And so you're in there eight ish hours, 12 hours, you're not sure, you know, you know, you're standing up most of the time. They're blasting Yoko Ono over the speaker, which is some form of torture, you know, like.

• 13:10Ryan Holiday?

  They're trying to break you, right?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  In a way, like, I don't know exactly what they're trying to do, but.

• 13:14Ryan Holiday?

  Or mimic what someone who's trying to break you would do so you can be familiar with that if that were to ever happen.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  So stress inoculation training is another way they define it. And there's psychologists, like blended into the role play watching, you know, like it's very controlled. So they're not like just messing with people.

• 13:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  But it has to be one of the most interesting, like points of data the army has is everyone who goes through the school and what kind of data they might gather from that, right?

• 13:44Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  But yeah, so I was in there and like I, I think what had happened, my best way to describe it is you're, you're very tired and very hungry by the time you get to this process, you know? And so once you're in there, it's like you have no defense mechanisms, mentally, physically, like you're, you're kind of just depleted.

• 14:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  And I think it took that much to be in a position where I wouldn't just push this away or, or, or say what it wasn't, justify that it couldn't be me, that I couldn't really be having these, these things. And I describe it like, like an old, you know, slideshow, like just images, like flipping through, zipping through of all these things in my life of gender dysphoria and just like running from it and in all of those things. And it just, it's where I had my epiphany that like, oh, that's what this thing has been this whole time, my whole life that I've been like struggling with, that I didn't want to, I didn't want to name it. I didn't want to face it. And I wasn't even sure what it was

• 14:46Speaker 01

  because I grew up in a, in an environment where, you know, very conservative Christians. So it's like, I didn't even have language around it. I didn't know what gender dysphoria was at the time. So I guess they broke me in a different way.

• 14:59Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that was gonna ask you that. I have a bunch of questions about this training because I've been thinking a lot about it. But like, I guess that would be one sort of critical read on it would be like, the training was traumatic and it caused some sort of break in some way.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:15Ryan Holiday?

  And that's what the training is supposed to reveal. Do you know what I mean?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:21Ryan Holiday?

  Did you, did you consider like, hey, maybe I didn't discover something about myself. Something went sideways.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  I, I did think that at first because when I got out of the training and you eat a nice meal. Like I went to Chick-fil-A afterwards. That's where I went. You can't deny the Lord's chicken.

• 15:35Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So I went to Chick-fil-A and just like had a milkshake and chicken nuggets and just like sat with it. And I was like, you know, that was just some crazy episode, you know? Because I was also like in the woods at one point before getting into the PW situation. Like, you're so tired that like you can start hallucinating, right? Because it's dark and there's shadows and it was raining and lightning one night. And I was just like, did I just see somebody? And, you know, there's all these, all these jokes about, oh, when you're in Sierra, you'll see like, you know, the ghosts of the forest and like all these things. And so I was trying to, once again, once I had kind of come to my senses, trying to chalk it up to this thing that, that can't be.

• 16:16Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  And a few weeks went by and it was still festering. And so I went, for the first time, I went to see a therapist about it. And I said, hey, look, this is this thing that happened. But then here's all these things that I thought of during that time that like feels like true.

• 16:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  And they said, yeah, that's gender dysphoria. And I was like, really? They're like, yeah. I'm like, but I'm, I'm successful. Like I've done this.

• 16:43Ryan Holiday?

  This is your VA doctor, right?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  This is not a VA. This is a private. Yeah. So as pilots, you learn not to do certain things medically. Uh, you know, when you're just asking certain questions and you're not quite sure.

• 16:57Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, interesting.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Because of the impact it can have on your flight physical. And so this, since this wasn't like a formal diagnosis or anything, it was just like a counseling session. But that's where I kind of started exploring it. And then once I realized that's what it was, because I was in the middle of flight school, I was like, well, I definitely can't. Get a formal diagnosis right now. I can't go get it treated because then I'll be pulled from training immediately. And I don't even know if this is really what it is. I still hadn't really accepted it. And then I told my wife immediately after. And yeah, it was, it was rough.

• 17:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  I still managed to get like 90s and above on my flight evals and graduate. You know, I was really good at compartmentalizing and flight training is so demanding of you entirely that it was actually a break. I would go to class. So I'd go and fly with my instructor and I couldn't think about anything else but that. So that was kind of a, a way to manage processing it.

• 17:52Ryan Holiday?

  So were you actually alone in the, like, you're, you're obviously alone in the box. But when, what I was reading about, the person I was researching is that they would put them in the box and then they're sort of like shouting things at them while they're in the box. Like, because they're trying to help you sort of learn how. So he remembered they were shouting like, get your, get your head out of the box over and over again. What he took that to mean is like, you have to sort of physically be there, but mentally you can be wherever you want. And so that, like, one of the ways they'd worked him through dealing with this long hours of being, you know, in isolation was like, to, to go on these sort of mental journeys. And they, they had him like, like, walk yourself, like, pretend you're, you know, eight years old and you're walking to elementary school. And

• 18:37Ryan Holiday?

  like, you would go on this sort of mental journey. And it sounds like you went on quite a mental journey.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  I went on a ride, yeah, for sure. I've heard people say psychedelics are similar, like, the, the type of state I was in.

• 18:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Because it wasn't scary, like, having that epiphany. It was like, as if puzzles were clicking. Like, it was just like, oh, like, gosh, that makes sense, but that can't be at the same time.

• 19:01Ryan Holiday?

  What were the pieces that you're thinking about? Like, because I do think people think that we have epiphanies in life and it's like you just get struck by lightning.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, not quite.

• 19:10Ryan Holiday?

  Because it's what it usually is. And this is also, I think, people think like scientific discovery is again, like, lightning striking. What it usually is, is you had all these pieces for a long time and you just didn't know what they meant or how they fit together. And then the epiphany. The the moment is where suddenly you you see it or you see a glimpse of what it is. And then you know, the work you have to do to put the pieces together.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Right. It's like you take a bunch of clues and you scatter them and then reassemble them. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, and now it all makes sense. Right. Like, I guess old like mysteries, you know.

• 19:41Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, that's basically what it is. Like the pieces where dressing up in my my sister's clothes at five years old. Or being very envious of of women and and not realizing confusing it with attraction. So attraction and envy is sometimes very similar. And so it's not understanding that. But then also, like, all throughout the years, like, you know, just having these moments where trying to blend in with whatever I thought I was supposed to be as a man.

• 20:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  And and trying to emulate that. And realizing like even other people could see it wasn't authentic. And it would come off as like, oh, you're being awkward or oh, you're this or that. And or being accused of being gay, even though I never was interested in men. So it's like people were seeing something that I wasn't seeing.

• 20:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Right. And then also internally having this this these feelings that like, oh, but the only example I know of that is like Buffalo Bill and Silence of the Lambs. Or like these terrible depictions, well, I'm I'm not that, so it can't be this. And then, of course, my moral compass was very much based in in scripture, which is these are sinful, terrible things that you're thinking of or wishing to be or.

• 20:59Ryan Holiday?

  Even though that's not actually in the scripture.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Sure, right.

• 21:02Ryan Holiday?

  But just whatever the people that you defer to to tell you what what was supposed to be.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that it must be sin, right? Like, it must be sin to um somehow I'm broken to be to be thinking these things. And other people don't think these things because I'd never met anyone who ever. Said some other things, but then like even other things, I remember like as a teenager, like planning a birthday party with my best friend and I was like, oh, it'd be really cool to do like karaoke and like all the guys can sing girl's songs, all the girls can sing guy's songs. And he like deadpan looked at me in the face and said, why would we do that?

• 21:36Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  And in my head, I'm like, why wouldn't anyone want to do that?

• 21:39Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't anyone want to? And then, yeah. So stuff like that, like over the years.

• 21:45Ryan Holiday?

  And that kind of stuff just came flooding back to you in that box?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yes, like all these images and feelings and phrases and things that people had said and things that I had said, you know, very much would just be like, surely everyone wishes they could be the opposite sex. Like, that's a normal thing. And maybe some people like entertain that thought for a second, like out of curiosity, but I would dwell on it. I would obsess over the idea of it, like, how cool would that be, you know, to be this other thing that, that I feel more closely aligned to?

• 22:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, sort of like your world gets rocked in there.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:27Ryan Holiday?

  And then, and then you're like, I should probably talk to someone about this.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And of course, as we're leaving that school, there's a psychiatrist, psychologist there, like, oh, if you ever need to speak with them, this is the person you talk to. And that's the last person I wanted to talk to about it. Because it's like, if, because the fear was if I say these things, then I will be immediately pulled out of training. I'll be immediately like, which probably wasn't true.

• 22:50Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Right. But it's the fear and it's the story every pilot tells you is like, well, whatever you do, don't tell the doctor, like, which is not great for aviation safety in its own. But at the same time, it's archaic and they disqualify really good pilots for no reason. So.

• 23:03Ryan Holiday?

  And historically disqualified people for a bunch of.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  A bunch of stuff, right? Like, that's not that big of a deal.

• 23:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough to kind of go it alone, knowing like, I can't really talk to my family about this. Like, the only person I told was my, my wife. And that was rough in itself.

• 23:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that feels like a, that feels like a tough conversation.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Have you ever told your wife? No, not yet. Yeah. Yeah, that was a hard process. At first, it was very much, you know, like, you did this to me, you tricked me, like, you know, like betrayal and of course justified. Have you guys been together a long time? Yeah, yeah, about about 10 years. So and then after a while of me telling myself that I'll just I'll just keep living life this way. I've done it for this many years. I can keep doing it. At least I know what it is now and I can I can treat it without having to transition and things like that. And about a year or so in a couple of years into that, she pulled

• 24:10Speaker 01

  me to the side and said, hey, look, I can see this affecting you and you need to do whatever it is you need to do for you, for your health. Wow, what a gift. Yeah. And she said, you not worry about me, like, I'll still be there for you in whatever way I can. Maybe not in the same way, but I won't forsake you. And I say that she didn't give me permission, but she set me free. Right. Because there's no way I would have chosen to do that to her. I would have just suffered. Yeah. And the dark side of gender dysphoria that's untreated is the indifference to living. What do you mean by that?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  I knew that I wouldn't kill myself, but I was totally okay if something killed me. That's not a great attitude for a pilot, probably. No. And it was never other people's lives at stake. So it was always one of those things where like, no, like, I need to do this for them. And never occurred to me. But at the same time, like, I'm in the car by myself, driving, and it's like, oh, if someone pulled out in front of me, like, that wouldn't be so terrible. Right. But I would never seek it. It's not like I would ever do it. But it was one of those things where like, I had accepted in a darker way that if I'm dead, I'm dead. And that was tough.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  To get through, because that's like taking the soldier's acceptance of death and pushing it to a point of being, like I said, indifferent, indifferent to life.

• 25:41Ryan Holiday?

  The soldier's indifference to death is in service of something or someone.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 25:47Ryan Holiday?

  What you're describing is more like.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  In service of myself.

• 25:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  In service of myself. Yes.

• 25:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, not giving up, but like, I'm like, oh, this kills me. Like, there is an upside to that.

• 25:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 26:00Ryan Holiday?

  Well, because it resolves an irresolvable conflict in your life without you having to do anything.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Well, who doesn't like that, right?

• 26:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Ryan Holiday?

  It's very.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  It's the ultimate lazy approach, I guess. But it was also one of those things like, even though it wasn't my wife's fault that I wasn't transitioning at the time or treating it, it was building resentment, just generally, like at her, at the world, like, they won't accept me and now I have to suffer because of that.

• 26:29Ryan Holiday?

  It's weird how something, how long something can lay inside you and then as soon as you put a name on it or think about it, it becomes something you have to deal with.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Ryan Holiday?

  When you just realize that's what the mind and the body must be doing as some form of self-protection.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Right. Well, before it was pursuit of achievement. So it was whatever this thing is, if I just get a degree, if I just go to flight school, if I just have a house and a wife and a dog and all of that thing and a kid. You know, that's, that's the, I guess, productive version of dealing with whatever it is, is.

• 27:07Ryan Holiday?

  It's a way of pushing it away.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  You need something to pursue in hopes that this will be the thing that fixes whatever this is.

• 27:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  And I think on top of that, flight school was kind of like my last big thing to do. And then afterwards, I would just try to be an expert pilot. And so there might have been some timing and correlation to that as well of like, I've done everything else.

• 27:32Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you've eliminated all the other things that could possibly be

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:36Ryan Holiday?

  the source of whatever the discontent, confusion, yes.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I was playing in the church band, you know, um, my wife had a daughter. So like, you know, I was helping raise her in the home and from five to 18. And, you know, it's just like one of those things like you're like, but there's still something else. And like,

• 27:54Ryan Holiday?

  But you're busy, so you can't think about it that much.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, if you're busy, you won't think about it.

• 27:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just think about the next thing.

• 28:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  But you know,

• 28:01Ryan Holiday?

  And you get locked in a box for a while and you're not busy for a second.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  There's nothing else but to think about it.

• 28:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  And you can't even, you don't even have the energy to, to think about something else.

• 28:13Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Because all of that is gone because you're depleted.

• 28:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  You're left with what your mind wants to think about.

• 28:21Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Even against your own will. So.

• 28:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, hour one, I was singing songs to myself, you know?

• 28:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. How many hours into it is this?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Eightish, twelveish, I don't know.

• 28:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  It was probably like three quarters of the way through. I've already guessed.

• 28:38Ryan Holiday?

  But you know what's weird? Like, you know, like you think you're dreaming like the whole time you're asleep. And then actually it's like two seconds, you know, like the, the, the dream could be the last like millisecond as you're waking up because it's all in your mind. That is the weird thing about the sensory deprivation experiences is just how much it reveals. Like, like I remember I was in a sensory deprivation tank one time and I had this experience that I was like spinning around that I like, that I was floating in a circle. And then, then they turned the lights on later and I was like, oh, that's physically impossible. Like I couldn't have done that. Like I was obviously just here that laying in the exact same position.

• 29:16Ryan Holiday?

  But when you, you just lose your, your, your bearings and all the things that sort of tied you down to how you thought things had to be and were.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:28Ryan Holiday?

  And so, yeah, this all could have been in the first 20 minutes. You don't know, I guess, right? Like,

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I, I know other things happened before and after.

• 29:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. But no one was there coaching me in there or anything.

• 29:39Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. The only interaction was negative if there was interaction with anybody else.

• 29:45Ryan Holiday?

  Are there other people in different cells near you? Or are you the like, how does that even work?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  You're aware of other people around?

• 29:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, because it's kind of classified. I don't want to

• 29:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  give too many details, but yeah.

• 29:58Ryan Holiday?

  Have you talked to other people who went who had similar awakenings in there?

• 30:02Speaker 01

  No. I mean, other people had like things, but you know, men, they don't like talking about stuff like that. They're not going to say that they had epiphanies of all sorts of wild stuff. Maybe if they're really open, but they tend to not be so much. At least military men.

• 30:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's interesting.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  But obviously, leading up to the training, people who've been through it like, oh, enjoy the box. Like, it's a common thing, but everyone I asked, like, hey, like, like, of course, they say no, like, no, like, I was just really tired of hunger, or I thought I saw a ghost, you know, it's like very like surface level. But I wonder if some of them had some other things that they explored, but maybe too embarrassed to talk about. Not necessarily like identity or anything like that, but even other like crazy fever dreams or whatever.

• 30:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And then how quickly we push those things back down where they belong.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 31:02Ryan Holiday?

  Or where we think they belong.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. If it's anyone's fault, it's the army's fault. You know, I should get disability for what they did.

• 31:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, if they if they're claiming it makes you unfit to serve and it happened there, I don't think that's that's

• 31:15Speaker 01

  It's funny that it's Yeah, because of it, I'm unfit to serve, but it's not a medical condition I can claim in the VA for disability.

• 31:22Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  But it's disqualifying for service.

• 31:26Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  So that's kind of a fun one.

• 31:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, or it's somehow a choice, but it means you're unfixably broken because you made the choice. It does it's

• 31:33Speaker 01

  I mean, we all know that if it was really because of a medical condition, they wouldn't have put animus language in the memo of being inherently inconsistent with an honorable and disciplined and truthful lifestyle. Because that's verbiage that was actually in there. And so if it was truly a medical thing, they would just say it's because it's a medical condition. But they wanted to make it sting a little bit as well.

• 31:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I don't get, I don't get why people care so much. That's always been the weirdest part about it to me.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I know why a lot of people tell me they care and it's all the things that the army had controlled for to allow us to keep serving. So like case by case basis, if you're not deployable, you can't serve, doesn't matter what you have. If, if, you know, you have these complications or whatever it is. And it's like, oh, well, the cost, it's like, well, the army spends more on Viagra than they do gender affirming care. So it's like, what's really the problem here? It's like, hey, we're just uncomfortable with people.

• 32:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because it is uncomfortable. I can, it's funny too, like I find it hilarious, like this life I lead, because it's just, I never thought I'd be leading it.

• 32:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  You know, and so I can, I come from the conservative Christian world. Like, so I understand what this looks like and what this seems like to people. And so I just, I just want to build those bridges though. Like, I don't know, I think I can, I can make a difference.

• 32:56Ryan Holiday?

  Before we get to that, so you become the pilot and then, then the new administration comes in, your status looks like it's going to change. But then there's other adding absurdity on top of absurdity.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm worried that I'm going to be kicked out because the election happens. And that's what he said he was going to do. But also he said that in his first term and there was an exception clause. So they were grandfathered in anyone who had already transitioned while serving. And that was part of my reasoning under Biden, why I went ahead and jumped in and did it. Cause I was like, well, this might be my only opportunity because they might close the door on it later. And so in 2023, that's when I started that process. And so come inauguration time, 2025, January, in the first week or so, the executive order comes out that they're going to ban all trans people from serving.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  And that it's likely going to be a full purge as well, where they're going to kick out anyone who has ever had a history of gender dysphoria or had ever attempted a transition, which I don't know how you define that, but.

• 34:02Ryan Holiday?

  They put on a wig one time?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, who knows, right? Like they painted their nails, oh crap, that's half of California, right?

• 34:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  But no, and so like, that was a lot. Yeah. And in the same timeframe, there was a terrible tragedy over the Potomac near Reagan Airport, where a Blackhawk collided with a airliner, killing everyone involved, all sixty seven people. That was January of last year? Yeah. And so around the same time, so like, I'd been asked by someone I worked for, Michael Smirconish, who has a Sirius XM show. He'd asked me, because he knew me personally, hey, would you ever want to write kind of like a reflection on being trans in the military as a way to humanize the story? Because I don't think people understand you're the person that's being kicked out. They think it's these, you know, kind of cartoon characters that, you know,

• 34:54Speaker 01

  blue hair and like, undeployable and just, you know, sucking off the government's teat type people. And I said, you know, like, let me think about it, like, because I knew the risk of being public and being targeted by anti-trans people. Plus, I was still technically serving and I didn't want to risk my service for maybe someone misconstruing that I'm speaking ill about the administration. And I figured, well, this, this is my chance to actually be brave and be all these army values I've been taught and, and religious values and speak about it. And so I wrote this essay and just said, it was basically a love letter to service. Like, I want to keep serving and I will serve until they won't have me.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't speak ill about the administration, just talked about my personal journey and, and how important service was. And coincidentally, that was published the same day the crash happened. Oh. And so somebody found that essay and twisted it to say it was a suicide manifesto and that I was the one who flew the Blackhawk intentionally into the airliner because it was such a non-deviation, flying straight. Everyone was like, oh, this must have been intentional. And then on top of that, there was an unnamed female pilot that the administration had held from releasing for, for a few extra days.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And the president had made a bunch of, well, we know it's DEI, we know DEI was involved. And so between all of that, someone had put together with my essay and pictures of me that I must be this unnamed pilot and I intentionally caused the crash. And I'm another example of being a trans terrorist. Yeah. And that happened on X or Twitter and I didn't even have an account on there. And so I wake up to text messages of people asking, am I dead? Or friends asking, do you see what they're saying about you online? Like, are you okay? And then I received a phone call from the Daily Mail, which I'd never talked to the Daily Mail before. And there's a British guy there and going, I'm surprised you answered. Do you know what's being said about you online?

• 37:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  And I

• 37:05Ryan Holiday?

  Even though that by nature of you answering the phone

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:08Ryan Holiday?

  Is disproving the rumor that you died in a plane crash.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. Well, no big media outlets were running with it. They were just running with the rumor that was happening, right?

• 37:17Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  And so I Googled myself, which is a weird thing to do as a private individual, and saw all sorts of stuff.

• 37:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Being said about me. And so, Sear training, right? Proof of life video. I'm gonna put a video out that hopefully I'm gonna say it in a way that can't be turned into more propaganda, right? All this training immediately came to light.

• 37:39Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  And I record this video as clear as day as I can that I have not involved and this is terrible that you're doing this. Like, it's insulting to the victims of the crash to try to tie me up into some conspiracy theory. And that went viral, the video itself. And then, of course, I had a wave of direct messages and things about how I'm a plant and I'm taking the fall for someone else. And I was actually supposed to be dead, but I spoke too soon and they didn't have time to kill me. And wild stuff. On top of that, death threats, you know, like the fact that like, oh, you are a person that actually exists and you are alive. Well, we don't like that. Like, you know, very much messages like, I can't wait to spit on your grave. And, you know, things like that.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  It's just like, it's a lot for still trying to make coffee in the morning.

• 38:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  You know, on a Friday morning.

• 38:28Ryan Holiday?

  Also, when you've done literally nothing wrong.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I did nothing.

• 38:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  I did nothing. And so, you know, the next morning I was on CNN Live telling the story. And in between that time, I hid my family. Like, we all went to separate locations. I packed bags, I armed all my firearms, I concealed carry, like. My fear was that-

• 38:47Ryan Holiday?

  Again, you're having to do all of your training.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  All my training came to light in the most, like you expect to get shot down and-

• 38:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Or you expect to be in a war and this, but here I am at my home in Virginia, having all this happen. And my private employer saw everything happening and reached out and said, hey, look, we can hire security for you because we do this all the time when there's like C-suite people that like, you know? I said, that would be great because I'm scared to death that something's gonna happen, not to me, but to my family or to people who are associated with me. I mean, I had friends that own bars in Amsterdam calling me saying they were seeing it on the news.

• 39:24Ryan Holiday?

  Right. It's like a global story.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  It was a big story and I think a lot of people, when I tell the story, they're like, oh, but you were alive. So there's nothing there. I'm like, no, you don't understand. Like now I'm a trans Black Hawk pilot that's alive.

• 39:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  That people didn't know existed, right? They didn't think that there was a trans Black Hawk pilot in the world, right? And now I exist and I'm not the only one. And it's just like, and then they found out that over the course of my transition, I was also converting to Judaism, which added to the rumors, right? Now, now I'm like the D E I wet dream. I'm like trans Jewish, you know, like all these things.

• 39:58Ryan Holiday?

  Conspiracy bingo.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that was an intense weekend, to say the least, and life hasn't been in the same sense.

• 40:06Ryan Holiday?

  When I've got to imagine, not just like as a trans person going through life generally, but a trans person trying to not get kicked out of the military. The whole point is that you're just trying to not draw attention to yourself.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. And here the whole world is looking at me.

• 40:23Ryan Holiday?

  And then the perversion of it is like, you're trying to fly under the radar and then they're like, why are you shoving this in our faces? Why can't it just be normal? And you're like, I am being normal. I was just living my life.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:34Ryan Holiday?

  Until you put this on me.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I had many people say like, oh, you're making trans like your identity. It's all about being trans. And like, no, it's just, that's the story.

• 40:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Someone said it was a trans person that has weight to it because Elon Musk loosened a lot of controls on Twitter after he bought it. And it became very common that in the first minutes of any tragedy- Any shooting, it was a trans person.

• 40:58Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Because he also has a personal vendetta against the woke mind virus, as he calls it.

• 41:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Because his child, one of his children is trans and he believes that they were corrupted by this woke mind virus. So he has a, especially like a sensitivity to trans issues.

• 41:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  And so stuff was flying on X like no big deal. And so there was, it created a, like a very fertile ground for something like this to happen.

• 41:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  And for it to go so far, because so many other examples had happened. And it kind of just created this machine that something happens, tie it to a trans person, get all the clicks, get all the outrage. And then maybe it'll be true. If not, we'll just delete it.

• 41:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  And so when that happened to me, which is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to even publish the essay. I said, okay, well, I'm gonna fight back.

• 41:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, the, the instinct when something bad happens to think about what's a minority group I can blame this on? Or how can, how can the presumption be that it's a black pilot or a Jewish person or a trans person? Is, is such an insidious and dark form of racism and bigotry? That we just kind of accept it as a society is like somehow like a normal political talking point and it's not, it's like.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  It's amazing, isn't it?

• 42:24Ryan Holiday?

  It's insanely dark.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Well, it comes from the idea that what they're doing is they're saying, well, it's not because that they're black. It's because these DEI policies put unqualified black or trans people in these positions. And if they had used the normal meritocracy system.

• 42:39Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Then we wouldn't be questioning their skillset because they're black.

• 42:43Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Right?

• 42:43Ryan Holiday?

  So even though the, by assuming that the.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:47Ryan Holiday?

  And you're also inserting the person into, you have no idea who it actually was, but.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 42:52Ryan Holiday?

  Presuming that because it was a woman or it was this race or that race or this orientation or that orientation. That they are, if they exist, one of the unqualified token recipients of the promotion instead of one that.

• 43:06Ryan Holiday?

  That earned it.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  The one that earned it.

• 43:07Ryan Holiday?

  That is the racist. That's what we're talking about.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:10Ryan Holiday?

  Right?

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:11Ryan Holiday?

  It could be that in one specific case that some woefully unqualified person slipped through.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 43:18Ryan Holiday?

  And if that was what the evidence happened to be, then you'd be like, okay, this is why we don't do that. But like, what you're doing is presuming that happened because that person looks like a person who could be that thing.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Benefit from it.

• 43:30Ryan Holiday?

  Which is racism. It's, it all just, at the end, it just, you could make it as complicated as you want. You're being a bigot. I don't know what to tell you.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  It's, it's wild because I never got any DEI beneficiary. Like, it's not like, I was in flight school passing the same evaluations everyone else was by the same instructors that, because I went through as a guy. I wasn't, I didn't transition.

• 43:55Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  So it's like, what are you talking about? Like, it was no DEI for me.

• 43:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Like, I went through as a straight Y male. If anything, that was the advantage.

• 44:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Like, I had a, I had a female stick buddy is what they call when you, you put in pairs in flight school and they call them your stick buddy because you fly together and you do everything together. And I had a female partner, stick buddy, and she had an instructor tell her to her face, women shouldn't be pilots. In 2021, in flight school.

• 44:22Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  So where, where is the, like, advantage she's getting? When she would get all the hard questions and I would get the softballs. Whenever they would sit down and do like some, like, just knowledge, like oral, like back and forth. It's like, oh, tell me about this, tell me about that. And like, I could just like confidently BS my way through it and then like they would just grill her for no reason. It's rare, but it still exists. Like, especially in aviation. Like, that's such an old school, like, good old boy circle. And thankfully, it's, it's changing and it has changed in a lot of ways, but, you know, those 50, 60 year old, 70 year old instructors, like, they haven't changed that much.

• 45:03Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  And so they still have their biases that whatever they were taught growing up and it comes out and you see it and you're like, yeah, that's, but I was a straight Y male. Like, what was I gonna do?

• 45:13Ryan Holiday?

  Right. How you experienced that as the person's partner then probably lands a little bit differently.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:20Ryan Holiday?

  Now.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Because I have to imagine she could have had a whole life like that, not just that instance, right?

• 45:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  And in my mind, it was just happening there.

• 45:29Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Because of that environment. And so you have a whole different appreciation when you are. When the the eye of Sauron's on you.

• 45:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, yes.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Right?

• 45:40Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  And so that's just, it's crazy because I I still am conditioned as as a guy in a lot of the ways. So like in business meetings or whatever, people will sometimes try to, I guess, treat me like a lady. And like I it it bounces off because I'm like, I just say it. I'm just like, why are you talking to me like this?

• 46:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Like, no, I should get this raise. Like, I wasn't conditioned to make myself small in that example, right?

• 46:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  And so it's it's weird living on both sides of it.

• 46:12Ryan Holiday?

  You know what's weird to me about the trans thing in the military? Is it like, it seems like the definition of a don't ask, don't tell situation in that like, who get like, how does this affect anyone but that person when they go home at night?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Well, they're reviewing women in combat effectiveness now.

• 46:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  So it it wasn't just trans people and their medical condition. Now it's, well, maybe women aren't effective doing these jobs they've been doing for a decade. Right?

• 46:41Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  So it's it's almost like Project 2025 was exactly what they wanted to do.

• 46:47Ryan Holiday?

  Which they said they wanted to do and then people were like.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Like, no, no, no, no. It's like, oh, all these people very close to the president wrote it. It's like, yeah, but that's not that's not what they're gonna do. And it's like they're slowly implementing every piece of it.

• 46:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And I don't know, like, there's they've kicked out about 6,000 or so well well trained trans people that I think are gonna make a very interesting resistance to it.

• 47:11Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I was gonna ask you, yeah. So how how many trans people do they think are in the armed forces?

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Between six and 10 ish. They don't know because, believe it or not, the Department of Defense doesn't track it.

• 47:23Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Well, I would. Because it's a note in your medical file. It's not a status that anyone can see anywhere in the system. And so they needed us to out ourselves in order to kick ourselves out.

• 47:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. And the 6,000 out of how many people are we talking about?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. Like, gosh, I don't know what the current.

• 47:41Ryan Holiday?

  But a very, I mean, it is an incredibly small.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And of course, when I tell people that, they said, well, they kicked 6,000 out because they wouldn't take the COVID backs. And I said, yeah, and that was stupid, too.

• 47:53Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Like, if you didn't like that, why are you okay with this? Oh, because it's it's not about what it is. It's about retaliation. It's about punishment. It's about the idea of I didn't like your side, quote unquote. And now my side is doing things that I'm. It's like they're glad that there's some bullying happening, like on a meta level. Like, they want someone who will bully back because they felt like they were bullied. That's my best guess when we're talking about them.

• 48:21Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, it is just weird how enormous a political issue it is for something that is.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Well, it wins.

• 48:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Right now.

• 48:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  And it wins because of, you know, the things that I get in trouble with when it comes to like trans organizations. It's like it wins because gender for and care for children is, you know, very controversial. And then, of course, trans women in women's sports.

• 48:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Which, shocker, they do generally have an advantage.

• 48:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, but again, affects such a miniscule.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 48:56Ryan Holiday?

  Amount of people.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Right, but that becomes the wedge issue, right? That becomes trans people represent this very small edge case of a thing that is not great. And, I mean, even like on ships, like women and children first, right? That's who we protect. And so what is the trans issue? It's mostly women and children, right? It's we don't want mutilation of kids. And on top of that, we don't want men coming in and stealing trophies from our women.

• 49:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  And so it falls, I think, on more of that

• 49:31Speaker 01

  more core consciousness of like being an American is like protecting women and children. I don't know.

• 49:37Ryan Holiday?

  I don't know. I think it's more like this thing makes me uncomfortable and I can't just say this thing makes me uncomfortable. So what can I? Where can I find one or two edge cases where it makes a lot of people uncomfortable? Or there actually is some legal or, you know, health thing to be concerned about? So then I can say, oh, no, no, it's really just this. So it's it makes it makes an illegitimate thing seem legitimate. Does that make sense? Like, I think that's that's more what it is.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I think when you're talking like political operatives, yes. But when you talk to people who get the result of all that messaging, they don't think that way. They're thinking this is an issue.

• 50:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Because they're being told it is. And because the biggest issue is that most people don't know a trans person.

• 50:25Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Right? And so when people ask me like, oh, why are you doing all these engagements, speaking and comedy, like being so public after everything? It's like, well, because like, no one else is telling the story.

• 50:39Ryan Holiday?

  There's two things there. So most people probably do know a trans person, which is the whole fucking point, right?

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:46Ryan Holiday?

  You do, and you don't know it, which is how it not just should be, which but which is the point. Which is it's somebody else's thing. It's somebody else's life. It's somebody. It's what somebody else has beneath their clothes or deals with with their doctor. And that's all that it is, which is to say, no concern of yours, right? Like, like, and so I think there's that. And then, yes, there is something I do think really important about meeting and knowing some. Representation is so important because then you go, oh, OK. Again, it's nothing like it's again, it's normal, like all things are normal.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. And I keep going into these traditionally red circles for that reason, right? Like, I the soldier, you run towards the front.

• 51:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  You know, you don't. I don't want to be in the liberal circles, the glad, you know, rooms, because you already agree with me.

• 51:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Right? I mean, my parents voted for Trump each time. And it's like, I want to win them over. And maybe that's like a weird piece of this. It's like, you're trying to win back your family.

• 51:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  You know, in some way.

• 51:59Ryan Holiday?

  How's that going?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  It's going great everywhere except them.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  You know, I meet people all the time.

• 52:05Ryan Holiday?

  Exact inverse of how.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  It's the inverse. It's very much like, I never realized that this is what this is. You know, that you're a trans person, like you're not anything like the things I thought.

• 52:16Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Right? I mean, other than like a few other prominent trans people, like there's still not a whole lot of examples. And I don't think we should be given spotlight just because we're trans. And that's one of the things after the crash room, where it's like, I don't want to be known for something that I didn't do.

• 52:32Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Right?

• 52:33Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  And so I'm on this journey of figuring out how to become known for something I did do.

• 52:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  And not waste something that while it was a tragedy in the sense of the crash itself, but also a tragedy in like, how it turned my life upside down, but also like, you know, making lemonade out of lemons.

• 52:53Ryan Holiday?

  When my wife and I moved out here to the country, we bought this ranch and we were both from California in the suburbs, had zero experience. Our neighbors were these two women and one of them was trans and her name was Vivian. She's amazing. She's the one that showed us how to use a tractor. She's the one that showed us.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 53:11Ryan Holiday?

  How to fix things up. Actually, we were so helpless that afterwards she started a charity that helps like basically city slickers do what we did, right?

• 53:22Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 53:23Ryan Holiday?

  Um, but like she showed me how to do all this stuff that by the way, my dad never showed me how to do.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:28Ryan Holiday?

  She worked on oil rigs. She was a vet. Also, she, she lives in Colorado now. She, she was running for, I think, state senate there. It's but like, we, we would not have survived like literally and figuratively without this person. And I think about it all the time because like, I don't know if we ever talked about it, which is kind of the point. Like, you're just like, you know, maybe you can tell, maybe you can't, maybe somebody told me, I don't remember how, like, I don't remember how it came up. But then you're just like, that's a fact about this person.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:57Ryan Holiday?

  Amongst many other facts. And then you choose whether that's gonna be the thing that you let define them. Or you choose whether that's a significant fact to you or not.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:10Ryan Holiday?

  And to me, the way more significant facts, not, not that this is insignificant or significant. It's just like the things that matter to me about this person is all the things that they. Did, and the kindness that they showed us and the friendship that they showed us and that they were fun to hang out with. Like, so you have those experiences. And so it was sad one day to wake up when she was running for office. She's on the front page of libs of TikTok, you know, that account?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, they posted that rumor, too.

• 54:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And so what I think is really important is not just meet this person and you become friends with them and then you go. Then when someone decides to treat them shitty, there's a human face on that, too. You're like, you're, you, a person whose only job is posting random bullshit videos and rumors on the internet, had decided to take this person who's been incredible to me and to make them into some sort of predatory monster or some sort of degenerate. It's like, no, that's not going to work for me. I think that's what needs to happen more.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, it's like I tell most people, like, I'm all these things, like Black Hawk Pilot, now comedian, like, used to be a level two CrossFit trainer, like, all these things. I just happened to be trans.

• 55:26Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Like, and that's how I wanted to be. Like, when I came out to my unit, it was kind of like, oh, cool. Like, it was a non-event.

• 55:34Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Like, everyone I came out to, I mean, other than my parents, of course, it was an event. Like, my wife, of course, it was an event. But most of my friends became closer. Like, people I worked with in my private job, I came out, they're like, okay, like, no big deal. Like-

• 55:47Ryan Holiday?

  Because why would it be a big deal?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  The people that made a big deal about it were, was current administration who made it a winning campaign issue.

• 55:53Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  And, you know, and of course, everyone who likes to feed off of that and like libs of TikTok who just makes a living, you know, getting retweeted by Elon because he owns the platform. So it's just, I don't know. And that's a tragic in itself because Elon's got so much to offer to the world. You know, it's just like-

• 56:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, who has-

• 56:14Speaker 01

  God.

• 56:15Ryan Holiday?

  Who has the mind virus?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting because, yeah, like, we're all susceptible to the toxicity and the corruption that is being popular.

• 56:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And, and you would think, though, when something like that-

• 56:36Ryan Holiday?

  Happens to one of your children. There's very few things that your children should do where your your impulse is like anger and judgment and especially when this is happening in public.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Well, they don't. They don't reflect the parent like they're their own person.

• 57:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Like especially when they're an adult, but also it's like, yeah, like you like my parents, I I applaud them because they didn't react that way.

• 57:11Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Like they still tell me they love me. They don't understand. They think I'm inherently on the wrong path based on their belief in Christianity. And that's, I can respect that because I understand what where it's coming from. It's not coming from hate or anger like towards me personally. They want the best for me. They just think the best for me is this other thing, but they still love me. And I just, I don't understand why I have a daughter. Like even if she like, you know, like whatever I can think of that she could do, I can't imagine reacting that way.

• 57:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  You know, it has to be ego, right? It has to be some form of ego.

• 57:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like you're like, I don't want to lose my, my child, so I'm going to push them away really, really hard. It doesn't make any sense.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  But it happens in history, right? So like, what is that instinct? Like, how is love not the first instinct in this world? Like, I just don't understand it with so many people claiming religion, especially Christianity or whatever, like the first principle of all this is love.

• 58:12Ryan Holiday?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  And love shouldn't make you angry.

• 58:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, love, understanding, curiosity.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:21Ryan Holiday?

  Acceptance. It also just seems like a much better way to go through life, like even, even if it was a choice, even if it was harmful, even if like people do lots of crazy shit.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 58:33Ryan Holiday?

  You know what I mean?

• 58:33Speaker 01

  People, people smoke cigarettes, people do all sorts of things that may might not be great for them or with people around them.

• 58:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Right? And it's, it's weird that some of those things are just so much bigger to them than others. Right? And how we hold those things in society even is like we hold the trans issue so much higher than what is killing children. And we're worried about this very small subset of children that might have got some care that was risky or dangerous or maybe not appropriate even for them. But yet. The number one killer of children, I think, was firearms. Or something like that.

• 59:08Ryan Holiday?

  Many, many, many times.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, like guns.

• 59:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, which you could actually do something about right now.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Which, which you can't restrict at all.

• 59:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Even in a lot of circles. So it's just strange to me, like, the things that we go after. And it's, you know, you, you always fear what you don't understand, right? Like, that's part of it, too.

• 59:25Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I, I think the, the child one is, is another one, too. It's like, one of the things I've learned, having kids who are, I guess you'd say, neurodivergent, is like, you have a lot of opinions about things before you have kids. And then before you have your kind of kid, like, whatever your kid is, right? Like, we all have opinions about, like, why don't parents just do this? Or, you know, the, the solution to that is this, or, and then what I think happens is God gives you something that challenges that very assumption. And in that moment, you realize you had no idea what the fuck you were talking about. Right? And if it was only so easy or as simple as you thought it was. And if you've met any parents who have children who have gender dysphoria, or curious, or whatever,

• 1:00:10Ryan Holiday?

  what you realize is, like, they, like you, are totally overwhelmed, are trying to do the absolute best thing that they can for their kid. And then they're having a hard time. And they, are there some parents, as there are in all facets of life, who are doing totally fucked up things? You know, uh, parents who are using their kids to do this or that, sure.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:00:34Ryan Holiday?

  But the vast, vast, vast majority are trying to do the best thing they can for their family and are getting the best advice they can and are not sure. Like, I remember my wife and I were talking to someone about, like, you know, should we send our kids to this kind of school, or this kind of school? And he said, you know, I haven't met any parent who's like, we figured it out. You know, that we are sending our kid to that perfect school. He's like, every parent is questioning their choices. And when you realize that, you go, I just, honestly, I don't have any time or authority to think about what you're doing at your house, or what those.

• 1:01:14Ryan Holiday?

  Parents are doing in that state cuz like I'm underwater over here.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you're really doing the work.

• 1:01:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, then it's difficult and it's a journey. It's not a it's not a one and done anything like you can put do everything right and it's still end up wrong, you know, and or different. And the greatest contradiction to the when it comes to genital dysphoria for for youth is in the UK, they they banned it after having it. And then they said, actually, we're gonna do a study now. And the people who were against it because there wasn't conclusive studies are also against the study.

• 1:01:49Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Because now you're you're experimenting on kids again. And it's like, well, we're trying to get the data that you say doesn't exist to justify it. And now you're saying we can't even do that. So. Yeah, I don't know. People just they got too much time on their hands.

• 1:02:05Ryan Holiday?

  There's other stuff to do.

• 1:02:05Ryan Holiday?

  A lot of people spend a lot of time thinking about other people's genitals. And that's, I think, our main problem.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Well, they're chronically online, right? It's like that is the what mind virus is that? It's being chronically online and, you know, it's it's very freeing to just not hold an opinion about stuff.

• 1:02:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Right? Like.

• 1:02:23Ryan Holiday?

  You know, this is actually one of the core ideas of Stoicism.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, this is from Marcus Aurelius, right? Like, there's power in not having an opinion.

• 1:02:30Ryan Holiday?

  Well, no, he says, you have the power to have no opinion.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah.

• 1:02:35Ryan Holiday?

  And and and there's power in that.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  And there's power in that. Yes.

• 1:02:38Ryan Holiday?

  Totally. And and a lot of us are like, no, no, no, no, I gotta make up an opinion about a thing that I just heard about.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  We know why, right? It's because when you scroll, each thing you see is asking you for your opinion.

• 1:02:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  And either an overt or a subvert way, it's asking you to form an opinion cuz you read it and you're like, what do I think about this?

• 1:02:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Even you're asking yourself your opinion on it. And it's exhausting. Right? By the time you're scrolling for an hour, you've had to decide and and and come up with your thoughts on so many things that doesn't pay your bills, doesn't feed you, doesn't help your kid like.

• 1:03:17Ryan Holiday?

  Well, there are two things to that.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  You're just wearing yourself out.

• 1:03:18Ryan Holiday?

  There there are things that, for the most part, you wouldn't have known existed if you were not. And then also, we're specifically and algorithmically filtered for you to elicit strong, positive or negative.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:33Ryan Holiday?

  Opinions.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Right. So on top of just that that mechanism, now it's also plotting against you.

• 1:03:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, to, yes, to basically make you an a judgmental sort of like intolerant asshole.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then you put it down and you and you walk outside and your kid's doing something you don't like. And your reaction is completely different.

• 1:03:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Because you're you're amped up, you're something, right? And it's just, it's just nuts to me and and people don't, they don't understand like, you're literally playing with something toxic every day when you're scrolling and doing these things.

• 1:04:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's toxic for you, but then also I think what your experience is a reminder of is is that it's also has toxic effects for the other people that you've turned into a video game.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Right. But it's also changes how you interact with people in real life.

• 1:04:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Right. And they're like, oh, it's just online. It's not real life, but it's so much is, right? And it's tough because like the, I think in productivity, like they talk about like decision fatigue. And you have to make so many decisions and the best way to like, kind of orient your life in the way you want it is to, is to have many things already decided, like whether that's what you wear or what you're gonna eat. If you don't have a lot of options and you narrow it, then it's not a decision you have to make. So you get to save that energy. And so when you, when you crack open social media, you're just, you're, you're spending all of that.

• 1:04:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  You're spending all of that on, on passing the time. So when it comes to when you need to have those resources, you're spent, whether it's your child or your parent or your a job or whatever it is you're doing or you're driving. And now all of a sudden you're angry at everybody. It's like, eh, I've already wore myself out for the day and I hadn't got out of bed yet. Cause you wake up and you just start scrolling, right?

• 1:05:21Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  So it's, it's, it's wild. I'm a big fan of like Cal Newport, like digital minimalism and like a lot of his books, but in general, like stuff like that. And of course, Atomic Habits was huge to me and, and understanding that and just, I tried to example, live that example because I don't know any other way to show people like this is really healthy and a good way to kind of, not that I get it perfect, but you know, you see people that are just chronically online and like, once again, I lead with love. It's like, I feel for them because I've been that person before.

• 1:05:56Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  I know what it's like and I know how easy it is and you know, people are capable of so much. Great things and beautiful things and, and you know, most of us are just, you know, getting an IV drip of, of toxicity.

• 1:06:13Ryan Holiday?

  On a, on a lighter note, what drew you to want to do comedy? Seems about as opposite as being a helicopter door gunner as there is.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  I wanted to change people's minds. So maybe not as light as you think.

• 1:06:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I was telling my story about the crash and, and the trans military ban so many times because I wanted to, to speak out, that it was becoming kind of like a dry.

• 1:06:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  For myself. And I said, well, how can I like change this up or whatever? And a huge fan of comedy, like, you know, many, many years, just growing up and going to see comedians, just love everything about standup comedy. And I decided to try to put some jokes in one of my talks and I got, I got laughs and it was addicting. I was like, oh, this is, this is exciting. I got a whole room of liberals to cheer when I said, we need to buy more guns. Like, we need more liberals with guns. And when they all were like applauding, I was like, interesting.

• 1:07:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  And then on top of that, the power that comedians have been given with podcasting.

• 1:07:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  In the current political landscape. And so I said, well, what's the best way to do it? Like, write my five minutes and where am I going to go tell my jokes? And Austin is the home of Joe Rogan's new comedy club. Cause I listened to Rogan for a decade, like a big fan. And I know that he has this show through Tony Hinchcliffe called Kill Tony. And I was like, well, I can go down to Austin and, and sign up and maybe I'll get picked. And so I, for four weeks, I went to open mics, trying to learn how to do it. And then flew down to Austin in June and signed up and got picked the first time I signed up out of a random bucket of, you know, 300 people and told my story in a funny way to a sold out room in Austin, Texas.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:08:03Ryan Holiday?

  How terrifying was that?

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Well, I'd already been accused of murder, so it's like,

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  you know, it's, it's tough, right? Like, you don't know what to expect.

• 1:08:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  And you hear all the things about how far right everybody is, and they're not really.

• 1:08:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, they're very friendly and kind, but, you know, I knew everyone would be waiting to jump on any sign of being a woke snowflake.

• 1:08:29Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  And so it was thrilling. I was hooked. I was like, oh, I think I want to do this longer term. And so I've been spending a lot of time in Austin, just building my material and, and producing a show soon. And like going and getting spots at different clubs and, you know, infiltrating the comedy scene. You know, I called it jokingly before I came down the first time. I was like, I'm going to call this like Operation Conservative Psyop. You know, I'm going to go down there. I'm going to get into this world and it's going to be considered like admirable because I didn't just come in and like browbeat them. I came in, learned Rogan's craft.

• 1:09:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Did it on his stage. And, and maybe that will be,

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  even though it's very unorthodox, maybe that's what people need to see of a trans person to help shift, you know? Change minds.

• 1:09:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there, there is something, it is interesting to watch that clip because people spend a lot of time making fun of something or then sort of forced to interact with it as something real and not just.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Well, especially, yeah, in, in comedy in these circles here, because there's not many trans comedians.

• 1:09:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  There's just a few of us.

• 1:09:42Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  And a lot of sets, if not every set, has a jab at trans people, funny or not. And some of them are great. Like, I love trans jokes. Like, I tell them myself. And I think anyone can tell a joke if it's funny. Like, I'm not into that, but it's very low effort, a lot of them. Because it's easy when it's a room that you assume there aren't any trans people in.

• 1:10:02Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  It'd be the equivalent of making like the most low effort black joke, right?

• 1:10:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Eh, like it's kinda hacky. Mm hmm. And what I learned is going to these sold out shows, sitting in the front row and making myself known to them, that it forces them to, to elevate, like it forces them to write better trans jokes. Yeah. Cause now it's not just this thing that you can kind of like this punching bag in the corner. Now it's a person in the front row who paid to see you. Right. And oh, now it's a person who's up next, right? Like, or now it's the person who you're following after they open the show for you. Yeah. And so it does give a whole new world. And oh, by the way, it's this person that like rolls with the punches and like kinda has thick skin and will make the first trans

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  joke in a room and isn't gonna like, you know, come down with all these like liberal woke ideas or, or tell you you're wrong, right? I'm just gonna lead by example. Right. And so that's, it's been very rewarding to, to be operating like that in this world. Well, that's very exciting. Yeah. Going up on stage is a scary thing. But it's exhilarating. Yeah. Yeah. Probably not unlike flying. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. It only feels like you're gonna die. You're not literally gonna die, but there is that feeling. Well, and like part of my set is like, yeah, I was flying Blackhawks until last summer and now I'm here telling dick jokes. Yeah. Because if you don't let us do what we're cut out to do, like what are we supposed

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  to do? You know? And it goes back to like the tropes of like trans people being sex workers. It's like, well, give them an opportunity to do something else, right? Like. Right. If you're restricting them from military service after, in my case, 16 years deployments, medals, it's just a misallocation of resources. You know, like I cost a million dollars to train. Probably more than that. Well, yeah, but definitely a million dollars for flight training. I thought Doge was all about saving money. You know, it's like. Yes. There's so many contradictions to it. And it's like, I think me choosing to tell jokes on stage is been the most effective form of advocacy because it's not, it's not

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  pushing advocacy first. It's, let me tell you some jokes. Let me throw some things out there and that will, that will soften you to, to be open to considering things differently, right? I'm not telling you how to think, but it's, it's been. So rewarding. I get so many messages from people like, especially after Kill Tony, like you're the kind of representation we need, or like, I never thought about it this way, or I can't believe you're not getting your retirement from the military. Like, I can't believe they're screwing you. I didn't realize this would happen. And these are a lot of people that voted for Trump.

• 1:12:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  You know, and so it's, in that sense, it's rewarding. And as long as people let me keep telling my story, I'll keep telling it, you know. And so I just actually started writing a memoir, which is another, I love learning.

• 1:13:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  So this is a whole nother.

• 1:13:01Ryan Holiday?

  Seems like you like challenges.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Ryan Holiday?

  Like being way in over your head and doing something.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  Well, the obstacle's the way, right?

• 1:13:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:08Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I've got some, I've got some books I'll give you that'll help. You want to go check them out?

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would love to.

• 1:13:12Ryan Holiday?

  All right, let's do it.