John Lewis + John Salley Are Black In America

Today I reconnect with my friends John Salley & John Lewis to discuss the black experience, race in America, food injustice, and where we go from here. A legit living legend, John Salley is the first basketball player in history to win four NBA championships with three different teams -- the Pistons, Bulls & Lakers -- in three different decades. A long-time vegan, Salley is also a passionate animal rights and healthy nutrition advocate (which we discussed in RRP 180). In addition, he’s an absolutely relentless entrepreneur, involved in a myriad of enterprises from vegan wine to cannabis. A prominent, ultra-positive voice in the vegan movement, John Lewis -- aka The Badass Vegan -- is a public speaker, personal trainer, and entrepreneur who can now add filmmaker to the resume. In partnership with mutual friend Keegan Kuhn (RRP 91, 176, 278, & 397), the co-director behind Cowspiracy, What The Health, and Running For Good, John is inching towards completion of They’re Trying To Kill Us -- a powerful upcoming documentary that examines the impact of food & health injustice on disenfranchised African American communities (a subject I first explored with John in RRP 260). Today we break bread. Black Lives Matter. Police misconduct. The pernicious nature of systemic racism. How religious institutions embed white supremacy. We also discuss the importance of black leadership and entrepreneurship. And we close with thoughts on food injustice -- how our broken food system negatively and disproportionately impacts communities of color. But most of all, this is a conversation about what is necessary to make things right. What black and brown communities need from white allies. And the ways in which we can grow, change, and do better -- together. Note: Check out the recently released and incredibly compelling trailer for They're Trying To Kill Us. Then visit the film's Indiegogo campaign to learn how you can support the film. Language Advisory: This one is packed with expletives, so pop on the earbuds if you got kiddos in the backseat. Finally, I suspect this will be an uncomfortable conversation for some; maybe for many. I invite you to listen or watch with an open mind and heart. Notwithstanding, these guys are a total blast. I love them both. I'm grateful for their friendship -- and their honesty. The visually inclined can watch our conversation on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Strap in. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  You have to understand that everybody has to speak up. When you hear something racist, you see something racist, speak up about it. I think people are too uncomfortable with being shunned. Like, no, you're not gonna be liked by everybody. But if somebody gonna hate you, let them hate you for doing the right thing. You know, there's a lot of people like, "I know that's wrong over there, but I'm not gonna say anything because my family and friends might not talk to me." All right, if those people don't wanna talk to you for doing the right thing, that's showing you their character.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  Black folks need to say enough is enough, and white folks need to say, "What do you need?" That's change. Being pro-black is not anti-white.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't hate white people.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  But we just want police brutality fixed. We just want cops to stop killing us. The thing that everybody is rioting and protesting is not, "I'm black, you're white."

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  What we're protesting is police brutality.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  It's time to end it, and the only way to end it is together.

• 2:03Rich Roll?

  That's John Lewis and John Sally, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:18Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. First, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 2:37Rich Roll?

  Okay, my guests today are my good friends John Lewis and John Sally. Mr. Sally is a straight-up legend, the first basketball player in NBA history to win four championships with three different teams, the Pistons, the Bulls, and the Lakers in three different decades. How about that? Since retiring in 2000, John has been a consistent presence on television and radio, appearing on countless programs, and even creating many of his own shows over the years. He's also a longtime vegan, a passionate animal rights and healthy nutrition advocate for many years, something that we discussed at length in his first

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  appearance on the podcast back in 2015. That was episode 180. John is also an absolutely relentless entrepreneur. He's got his hands in more businesses than I can count, from vegan wine to cannabis. And his latest venture is Cafe Organics, which is a brand-new, plant-based restaurant, which just opened last week, I believe, in San Bernardino, the intention being to put an end to the food deserts that plague the black and brown communities that reside there. John Lewis, aka "The Badass Vegan," is a public speaker, he's a personal trainer, he's also an entrepreneur, a longtime friend, just one of the friendliest, most

• 3:58Rich Roll?

  positive personalities in the vegan movement, who has taken a new career turn lately as a filmmaker, partnering up with our mutual friend Keegan Coon, who you might know as the director behind Cowspiracy, What the Health, and Running for Good, on this powerful new documentary they're collaborating on called "They're Trying to Kill Us," which takes a look at the impact of food and health injustice on disenfranchised African-American communities, which is also a subject I first explored with Mr. Lewis in our first podcast together back in 2016. That was episode 260.

• 4:38Rich Roll?

  We're going to break it all down today. Black Lives Matter, the protests, police misconduct, the nature of systemic racism, the role religious institutions play in embedding white supremacy, the importance of black leadership and black entrepreneurship, food injustice, of course, and what is required of all of us to make things right, including what black and brown communities need from white allies so that we can grow, change, and do better together. I should say that the conversation about the movie They're Trying to Kill Us, which takes place near the end of the podcast, was a bit briefer than I would have preferred.

• 5:23Rich Roll?

  But I will definitely have John Lewis and Keegan Coon back on the show to discuss the documentary in detail upon its completion, which is near and promises to be quite powerful. In the meantime, I encourage you to check out the incredibly compelling trailer for the documentary, which I posted on my Instagram page on, I believe, June 24th. And finally, this one, which is a bit all over the place at times. Both Johns are prone to tangents. Sally is Sally. That's why we love him. It's, first of all, packed with expletives, so pop on the earbuds if you've got kiddos in the backseat. And it's also provocative.

• 6:07Rich Roll?

  It's a conversation I suspect might be uncomfortable for some, maybe for many. At the same time, these guys are a total blast. They're super fun. I love them dearly, both of them. So strap in and prepare for the testimony of John Lewis and John Sally.

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  So why don't we just start with what's going on? Like, give me your take on where we're at right now. I really want to hear like your perspective on what you think is going on.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  I mean, right now, it just feels like, it feels like we're at a spot where people realize that they have to use their voice now. And, and I mean, everybody, like, we're starting to see like a team effort to battle racism. Like, we realize black people can't do it alone, and white people have to speak up. And I'm starting to see that that's actually what's happening. And, but I want, I want every white person out there that's helping, or that's thinking about helping, I want y'all to understand that there's probably not going to be any awards, there's not going to be any pat on the back, there's not going to be a high five, like, you're doing it just because you know it's right. And I think as long as they understand that, you know, because I see people like, well,

• 7:27Speaker 01

  I, I went to this march, it's like, yeah, that's great, but there's a lot more going on. As far as everything that's going on, I think it's been going on, it's just getting revealed.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  This is, this is not anything new. I mean, not to call him out, but John's older than me, so, as I say, he's seen more than me. And just from, like, I grew up in Ferguson, like we talked about before.

• 7:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  I've seen worse, almost, you know? So it's just like, it's time to end it, and the only way to end it is together.

• 7:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there, there, look, those changes at the highest level politically

• 8:09Rich Roll?

  require a certain level of will, right? And that will is a reflection of popular support, and I've never seen this level of popular support. So it's about figuring out how to harness that and channel it in the right direction so that it doesn't just dissipate and then we're back to some version of, of normal. Because, and I think, like, what we don't want to do is make the mistake of what happened with Ferguson. Like, we talked about Ferguson last time, you growing up there and everything that happened there in 2014, and I think there was a sense that after that, there were going to be some changes, and we didn't really see that, right? This does feel different to me, I don't know if it does to you.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  No, definitely.

• 8:49Rich Roll?

  I think there's an opportunity here.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Tell me the truth, John. My patience. I know. I'm sitting here. I told John before. I said, I'm gonna be quiet most of the time. No, I don't want you to be quiet. My patience is up. I'm 56 years old. So in 1964, the Civil Rights Act was passed. So if you were born before 1964, black folks had no civil rights. And we still had to fight to the point where Martin Luther King got killed four years later, and then the riots. Then, 47 days after the riots, the Civil Rights Act was enacted. That's when it took effect. It gotta go, literally, the only way this country, or most people have ever, ever, ever,

• 9:39Speaker 02

  dealt with things, is when it hurt them in their pocket. Do I think it's the right thing to do? No, I don't think anybody's stuff should be burned down. I don't think anybody should be in this situation. But you know what? It's from what it seems like. It seems like it's a lot of talk. And it does not feel real. So the change doesn't have to come,

• 10:07Speaker 02

  like John said, from both sides. The change, the reason what he means by the change, it gotta come from both sides, is black folks need to say enough is enough. And white folks need to say, what do you need? That's the change. They can't help us. White folks can't help us. We gotta help ourselves, and we gotta do it this way, period. Like, you know, someone said, we ain't got no money. We do. We gotta, we gotta now crowdfund and source to ourselves. We now have to build things

• 10:39Speaker 02

  that help us as a community. We now have to separate, like, we, we gotta take a second, we gotta step away. Integration was at this point. We love the Allies, but we as black folk gotta step away. Gotta step away and figure out which one of us are like Candace Owens? And which one of us are like Killer Mike?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  That's the difference, and this is the problem. When you separate, everybody stays separate, but we have to pick a side. We have to either say we're gonna go this way, or we're gonna go that way. And we have to make a decision that those on this side raise their ways, and those on this side raise theirs. Before, we tried to mirror, we tried to put it together. And what we got was a Vietnam War and drugs in our community. I was 10. So, we gotta change that look. I think we gotta be, we gotta act like Americans. When we didn't, when they no longer wanted to be subjects of Great Britain.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  And Malcolm X said, you know, if you talk about a revolution, there's nothing nice about it. There's nothing cute about it. And if it doesn't, if it doesn't, we're gonna go back to the normacy. And the normacy was wrong.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  And that's why when you hear, you know, "Make America Great Again", we're like, when the fuck was it great for us? Like, you know, like, we had some moments, you know? Like, put it this way, for people out there that are listening, when they, when you, when your rebuttal is, black people had a good, they had Michael Jordan, or they had Barack Obama. If you could only think of five people as the barometer of we had a good, that's not good. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, and people do it all the time.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, we, everyone knows it wasn't good. The deal is, what we gonna do? Like... Do we send money to the NCA, uh, NCA? NAACP. NAACP. Same two. Right. I'm sorry, NAACP. Do we send the money to Black Lives Matters? Right, right. What happens when you send the money there? When they put this in, are we gonna hear corruption? And this guy bought Bentley and three houses. Like, what, what, what are we gonna hear? What, what is gonna be the move? Do we send it to Minister Farrakhan? Do we send it to Al Sharpton? Do we send it to Dr. Umar Johnson?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Like, we literally need leadership. One, one thought process, I would say.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  And I don't know if it needs to be led by a religious faction or not.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  I was gonna post something the other day. And Rich, this is the deal. I'm on this show, cause John asked me to be on. And I said. You hear it reluctantly? No. No, no, not reluctantly. No, no, no. Because I'm angry. And because I'm enraged. But, you know, me being a Buddhist, you don't ever react in anger. But, like, I got 17-year-old daughter and 23-year-old daughter who say to me, "How'd you let it get this far?" Like, I was in charge. Right. But then I'm like, "Yeah, how did I, why did I..." I posted on my post, it said, "Know your position. Make your choice."

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Now, and I was literally to as many black folks that, because they knew what it was, like, you're gonna play the back, you're gonna play the front, you're gonna sit in the house, you're gonna be in the field. All those different words came about. And I was like, "We have to literally unlearn everything."

• 14:34Speaker 02

  If we don't unlearn it,

• 14:38Speaker 02

  we're gonna start acting like my boy Shaminat, uh, Shalamein said. He had a book called Black Privilege. And people was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, you gotta think about it. He was like, sometime we act in a certain way, as if we're on this side looking at black people like, what the hell? When we supposed to be looking at ourselves like, what the hell? So, I just said, pick your, pick, pick exactly what position you wanna be in history. Do you, you know, you wanna spark it? That's why I decided to open up my own stuff. We, we're going to things and I'm making everybody else money, posting their stuff. And I was like, if I don't, if I don't show these cats, especially nowadays, financial.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Freedom and literacy.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and growth and invested into my own thoughts. And this is why no one else is gonna do it.

• 15:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you're, I mean, both you guys are black business owners. I mean, you got a million businesses, right? I mean, I can't keep track. It seems to change a lot.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  I have to, I have to call John up sometimes, like, hey, man, is this really you? Like, okay.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  You know, it's called a seventy, seventy-two means of income.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:51Rich Roll?

  Diversified.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you gotta, like, literally, the seventy-two names of God in Hebrew. So, lit, if you can have seventy-two streams of income, not only help yourself, you're helping everyone who's associated. So, I have, I have seven right now.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  You got a.

• 16:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  I'm tired as hell, right?

• 16:13Rich Roll?

  And you got, you have Vegan Smart, right?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Vegan Smart, badass vegan as a, as a corporation too. And then the, the production company, Hungry for Justice. And that's something we, you know, a lot of people don't realize, like, the black dollar, black consumers spend 1.2 trillion dollars a year.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  How many black businesses are put up front to make that money? It's like you're spending and it's going all the way from your community. Or your people now is like, oh, well, what if you invested that back into the community, back into black corporations? And then other black corporations come about and it just, it's a trickle effect. You know, that 1.2 trillion is a lot of money.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  That's a lot of baby shoes.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Right. It's not, it's not going back to the black community, though. So the spending is all going out, it's not coming back in.

• 17:05Rich Roll?

  So how do you catalyze entrepreneurship in your community?

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Well, we opened up Planet Health in Compton, 546 West Compton.

• 17:16Rich Roll?

  Is that your, is that your restaurant?

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is a trip because it's a small restaurant park. But it was like a strip mall and then it had like an empty lot next to it. So I got in touch with the guy Moses, who was making the generators to make air, make water out of the atmosphere. And hopefully going to talk to Ron Finley again about putting a farmer's market there. And then we sell hair, coffee. There's a stage for people to talk and get their words out, learn things.

• 17:48Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Small cafe and then it's a clothing store, but with all stuff made in LA. So literally we did that across the street from New Body. Got to say that new era.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Because we wanted just to take over Compton Avenue. I just, that mentality. And then I opened up Plant Organics Cafe O in San Bernardino in a brown neighborhood. So one in the black neighborhood and one in the brown neighborhood and health and wellness. So it still fits with what we do.

• 18:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  But it's, I wanted to get rid of the, the, I wanted to make an oasis. I wanted to get rid of the, the, the lack of food and lack of knowledge and health in the black community and brown community.

• 18:32Rich Roll?

  Right. I want to get back to one thing you said earlier about, about leadership right now. You know, what is different about this moment versus 64 MLK, you know, Malcolm X? Is that there is no iconic leader at the moment for this? That leadership is distributed and.

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  You know, how does that impact this movement? Like, both of you guys are amongst those leaders. You both have huge profiles. You have people who really care what you think. And I'm sure you take that responsibility seriously and, you know, think long and hard about how you message to your respective communities. But, you know, what does leadership mean in this moment in Black Lives Matter?

• 19:15Speaker 02

  It means everything. I tell you because the way everybody is getting their information is literally the same way. It's not diverse. So, all the information comes from television and Instagram. So, you're not, you don't have a paper that had been, or you have a couple of papers, but none that, we don't go and pick up the paper now and read it the same way. Things can be blocked on Facebook and on Instagram and YouTube. And those are the sources we get our information from. It is no, we have the paper in, you know, in Inglewood.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  But, you know, it's not that everybody's running out to see what the news is. We're used to turning on CNN and believing that. Used to turning on Fox and believing that. So, the problem with the leadership is, who do we trust? To be 100% on this side and never gonna waver. And the only person that was like that was Colin Kaepernick. Colin Kaepernick put his neck on the shoulder like Muhammad Ali did. And, but he's not saying, hey, I want to be the leader of this movement.

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  So, the problem is, we just have to find out where, you know, do you go after a celebrity? Do you listen to Dave Chappelle? Or do you check? Like, we don't know. Like, Dick Gregory quit being a comedian to be an activist. Yeah. So, it's just, but he's passed. So, it's like trying to figure out who and what side to move on. Because... We have been rich for light for a better word. We have been literally massaged into believing it's gonna be okay. We've been, ah, it's gonna be okay.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  We gotta literally not feel that. We got, and, and who, I don't know who we, we listen to.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  It's a big trust factor with it.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  It's a big trust factor.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Because this time, we wanna move away from it. We wanna get out of it, you know? I know I do.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Is it because you gotta think about like, there are so many people with ulterior motives. It's like, so yeah, maybe they might come in, they might wanna help. They might wanna do something, but it's like, but what's the ulterior motive? And track records have shown like, it's not a big track record of good people right now. You know what I'm saying, on, on both sides. So it's like, who do we wanna trust? And who wants to take that? Cause like, maybe three, four years ago, Kaepernick had that energy. He wanted to do that. Now he's like, well, fuck y'all, y'all didn't wanna listen to me then. You don't listen to me then, like, you know, I, I moved on, cause y'all didn't wanna listen to me.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  So it's kinda like that, like, and, and then, who wants to be torn down by the other side too? Because whoever is gonna be that leader, they're gonna, it's gonna be a mission for other people to go after them. You know, like, the premise of Black Lives Matter, there's nothing corrupt about that, there's nothing. But there have been people out from day one, the money's going here, the leadership is this. You know, like.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  The, the core of it is good. Of course you gonna get people that trickle in, that aren't like a hundred percent at the, at the protest. They turn into looters and they, they do riots. It's like, okay, do you really think? That the people of Black Lives Matter is out there, the ones that are literally starting the fires or doing this and that, like, uh, and I'm sure you get on top. People like, well, if Black Lives Matter so much, why do black people kill each other? I'm like, do you think the people in Black Lives Matter are the ones that's killing other black people? Like, do you think, like?

• 23:12Speaker 02

  I got the answer for that, too. And I have to tell people, because I know I sounded very strong when I first came on, but being pro-black is not anti-white.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't hate white people, just do.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  No, I, you know.

• 23:24Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a lot of moral confusion out there right now around that.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  No, I don't have that. Like, literally, uh, I'm about to sound like a white guy. No, but my wife is, my wife is, is, is half Caucasian and, um, some of my best friends are white. No, uh.

• 23:41Rich Roll?

  How dare you?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  It doesn't sound crazy the other way around, but, but I, I literally, it does. But I just want people to understand that it's like, it's not the OJ trial. This is not the Rodney King, like, but the fact that we could even go back to that, or how people were so separate, how separate the country was, and how like, black people that didn't even know who OJ was, was on his, like, that kind of stuff, we gotta get away from, you know, so. And I, I'm glad that my daughter's age, different than ours, uh, is, they kind of see no color. That's.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  How are they doing with all of this?

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Uh, they're angry. My, my daughter Giovanna is 32, she's, she's losing it. And I had to tell her, yo, chill. I had to say chill.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  For you to say chill, that's.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  For me, I was like, chill. I was like, because you're transferring something else into this. Like, don't transfer, you gotta be smart about how this gets done. But the, the, the one thing that I would say, that, uh, I love the allies that are on our side, but. But we just want police brutality fixed.

• 25:00Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  All the rest of that shit, we don't want a lot. We just want cops to stop killing us. I want, I literally drive the whitest of white cars in the world. I drive a Prius.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  I did.

• 25:16Rich Roll?

  How do you fit in that thing?

• 25:17Speaker 02

  I drove a Prius and I still got pulled over. No, I'm joking. No, I drive a Tesla and, and I'm driving.

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  And it's even white?

• 25:26Speaker 02

  And it's white.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  I drive this car and if I see a police officer, I still second look.

• 25:35Rich Roll?

  Cleaned up.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  And I was like, what the hell, I'm 56, I'm still doing that? And you do? I still second look and I just want that part to stop.

• 25:45Rich Roll?

  Have you had gnarly encounters in the past?

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I was playing for the Miami Heat, uh, nineteen, it was two thousand, nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. So I'm hanging out with my brother, Michael, and I'm working for Toyota. So I get a Land Cruiser every four thousand miles. But it's like the big, this is when Toyota was throwing it out. So I had this big, beautiful white one and I'm getting on the causeway, we're leaving the club. I don't drink or smoke. So, and we're, we're driving and the cops pull us over on the causeway and tell me to cut the car off, turn, drop the keys out of the, do what you call it. Open the door with my right hand, get out and walk backwards while their guns was drawn.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Then they got me, turned around, put my face down, put the lights, oh, it's John Sally. Yo, sorry dude, we had, we heard somebody, you know, stole a white truck like this on the beach. And so my brother was like taking a shit, he was like, come on, we're cool, right? Yo, man, don't be, and my brother was like, if I would have tripped, you would have shot me. If I would have stumbled going backwards, you would, you would have shot me. And it never clicked until my brother told me that. And he was like, Sally, we're cool, right? I was like, mm-hmm, got in the car. We get twenty minutes from my house. You ain't say shit. I still couldn't say anything. I was like. Yeah. I was like, wow. But, um, I got about six of them.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  But they become so, I've become so numb to it until I saw George Floyd. It was amazing. It was like, uh, like those girls calling in on Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby like, oh, I. Exactly. Yeah, I saw that before. Something clicked and I was like, yeah, that could have been, that could have been me. And the trip is, I posted today, a white dude going through the same thing. So it wasn't just black. It was police brutality. Exactly. And that's what I keep saying to people. They keep thinking I'm making it black. No, I'm making it police brutality.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  And my, my cousin's like a chief was a top captain. My other cousin's a chief in the police, I mean, fire department. My brother's a correctional officer. I get it. But they still overstepped their bounds.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  So when you hear defund the police?

• 28:10Speaker 02

  No. No, I said fund the police. So now we could know what they need to do is if we got snitches in jail, we need snitches in the police department. Find out which ones are on the air, uh, believe that the Aryan race is stronger. Find them, tag them, get them out. What they're gonna do is start their own police force. So now you gotta watch it. So we watched Black Klansmen. We watched Mississippi Burning. We saw all these, all these things are imitating life. We watched it, knowing what it was about, police brutality. Now we need to stop it.

• 28:49Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. I think it's obvious that, that we need, we need a healthy police force. You know, I don't know why anyone would be calling for the abolition of the police. I'm certainly not anti-cop, but, but I think we need to figure out how to allocate those funds appropriately. So they're going in the right direction. We gotta train these people better. They need to be able to manage their emotions under pressure. They need to be adequately trained with firearms. They need to know how to handle high conflict situations. Like it just, if there's anything that comes out of all of these videos, it's that these people are ill-equipped for high-stress situations.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  They should stand down. Soon as they see high.

• 29:28Rich Roll?

  I'm not saying they're not racist, but.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  But even, even, even one, a lot of them need to know the law. We need to retrain police officers to know the law and know the rights. That's the deal. They don't know the rights. They believe they're above the law.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  So when you don't know the rights of the citizen, you will violate them. Right? Power is corrupting. Absolute power is absolutely corrupting. So if you think, I got the gun and the badge.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  And nothing can happen to me.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, who you? I'm a nigga with a badge, right? That means I get the right to kick your ass whenever I feel like it. Well, that is a mentality. It wasn't just Eddie doing it in the movie. That's a mentality. And I said, when we know that the thing that everybody is rioting and protesting is not, I'm black, you're white.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  It sounds like it, but what we're protesting is police brutality. Period.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  And they need to know that it's, it's consequences to their actions. Right now, like you said, with them thinking they're above the law. Just like, yeah, I can whoop your ass. There's nothing wrong with that. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the mentality right now. It's like, if I, anybody, if they follow, they can do something. And then later on, they realize, oh, well, nothing's gonna happen to me? Their morality, that, that paradigm shifts for them. Like, well, I know this is wrong, but I get away with it every day.

• 30:56Rich Roll?

  And layer on top of that, the fact that that opportunity is attractive for a certain person who gets into that field of work because of whatever trauma or abuse that person suffered in their life that, that makes that job sound appealing.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  They're gonna do Robocop. Was it Robocop?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was Robocop, yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Robocop's about to come, man. Then everybody's up shit creek.

• 31:29Rich Roll?

  I'm sure you've had run ins with the police too, right?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, one case that always sticks out to me is that I was in, I was in college, I played college ball, I was going to a classmate's house to meet up with her and they lived in a better neighborhood, you know, this is, I, I lived in Ferguson, they live in a better neighborhood, I'm riding over, I got this, a 980's mobile, if anybody ever, it's, it's beat up, it's a hoopy, whatever, I'm driving and I noticed the cop get behind me and mind you, I'm still looking for her house, cause I don't, I've never been in the area really, so I am driving a little slow and then he puts the lights on, I'm like, and automatically, like you say, like, fear, like, I, I remember, just a segue, I remember I put out a post

• 32:16Speaker 01

  about three or four years ago and I was like, for everybody out here, I want you to answer, if you get pulled over, what's the first thought that goes in your mind? Most white people were like, oh, you know, maybe a ticket, this and that, most black people were like, I might fucking die. So that's a big shift for people to understand, like, yeah, we might, even if I don't die, I'm probably gonna end up with some kind of injury, like, that's for a ticket, whatever. So he's pulling me over, but I waited till I got like more in front of her house, cause I always remember Rodney King, I'm like, I want witnesses, like, whatever's about to happen to me, this is before cell phones had cameras, it was like 90, 97, something like that, so I'm like, alright, so I get there, but I, I called

• 32:57Speaker 01

  her, I'm like, hey, I'm outside, um, the cops just pulled me over, I'm just letting you know, in case something happens. So he comes up, he's got his, he, he unflaps the gun, he's got the, he's got his hand on the gun, and he's like, uh, what are you doing here? That's, that's the first question, like, I'm not allowed to be, I was like, oh, well, I'm meeting up with a classmate, we're, um, we're about to do our paper together, my bookbag is right here, hey, don't move your arms, my bad, I'm just showing you, my bookbag is right here. So now, four of the cops have showed up, and by the time we like, keep getting our conversation going, he's like, why didn't you stop when I first turned the light on, I was like, well, I was nervous, I just wanna make sure it was witnesses, this and that, he's like, no, you stop, when you, when the lights come on, I'm like, well, I

• 33:42Speaker 01

  was in the middle of the street too, so. Pull over and he gets my license registration, goes back to the car. I'm telling him like, I'm still outside. I see her come outside on the porch. Her father was like a state official of some kind. So he comes out, he's like, hey, what's going on? And they're like, oh, this guy, he meets the description of the guy, him and the car meet the description of the guy that just robbed a grocery store around the corner. I'm like, well, damn, like, was he in a cutoff t-shirt? Why? Because I'm like, I just can't play ball. Like, I'm not like, you know, like, who robs a store?

• 34:19Rich Roll?

  That's like so many stories, though.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  It's just so crazy.

• 34:22Rich Roll?

  Terribly wrong.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  And now, mind you, I'm, I am, I'm a 20-year-old guy, you know, I'm not even, I'm nervous as hell, you know, like, and everybody's like, oh, if you just comply. I'm like, man, when the fear kicks in, you're like, dude, I might die right now. Like, you don't know what you're gonna do. So I'm sitting there waiting on everything to go through. Finally, they come back. Luckily, they stayed on the porch and waited. And I think that that literally made this whole story change. So finally, they give me the papers back. No, he's not the guy. They go. Come back to my classmate's father. He calls into the office or whatever because they just wanted to check. Like, was there a robbery? They're like, no, there hasn't been a robbery at any grocery store in that area in the last like five years.

• 35:08Rich Roll?

  Just made it up.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  So he just made the shit up. But I just didn't fit like I should have been in that neighborhood.

• 35:13Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Now, mind you, the classmate was black too. But she has like a Lexus and I'm riding around the night. You know, like, it was just so, I'm telling you, like, I was nervous like the whole time, like, the whole time.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  He was wearing a cutoff t-shirt, like, showing the stomach?

• 35:31Speaker 01

  No, no, it was a cutoff arm.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  I was like, well, you wear the crop top?

• 35:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Maybe you got pulled over for the crop top.

• 35:40Rich Roll?

  Lime green.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Were y'all working on dance steps?

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Oh, man. No, it was like a basketball shirt. So, you know, but it like, but it pisses you off afterwards. Like, it's like, why would you even fuck with somebody like that for no reason? Now, I'm not saying there's not bad people out there.

• 35:57Rich Roll?

  So, the guy just, he saw the car. He's like, this is a, this is a tweaked ride this guy's got. Like, he looks like he's black, like, lights up.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. He shouldn't be in his neighborhood. It's a beat up car. Like, the car is beat the fuck up. So, like, he's like, no, this car shouldn't be in this area. What's going on? I'm like, but if I'm gonna do something shady, I wouldn't be going slow.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  You wouldn't be creeping slow.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't be creeping slow. Like, why would I creep around? Like, so it was just, but it's so many stories like that. I mean, I've had, I've had more run ins myself, but it's like, and that's the messed up part is because you, you're, you're kind of powerless.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Because they have supposedly absolute power, and absolute power corrupts you. It, it makes you believe that anything other than you is lesser. White, black, purple. If, if we don't change the way that thought process is, like, the other day, uh, excuse me, I forgot his name, but the brother got killed in the Wendy's parking lot in Atlanta.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  He's standing up, having a conversation.

• 37:02Rich Roll?

  Rayshard Brooks?

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's having a conversation. Yeah, he's tipsy. He doesn't know his rights. He doesn't have to take the breath of lies a test. Next you know, he's wrestling. And then, as I'm watching it, they go, well, look, this is when he turns around and points the stun gun. Well, he pointed a stun gun, and then the cop shot him with a real gun.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  So, why, if, if, did he feel threatened?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  In the back.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Did he feel threatened by stun gun? Then he should have, well, he stole my stun gun, so the only other gun I had to shoot him with was that. So, it, it's, it gets to a point where you gotta stop giving excuses. It, it cannot, we cannot have any more excuses. We can't have George Floyd, and since George Floyd, seven other people get murdered.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Murdered.

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Murdered.

• 37:50Rich Roll?

  There was the kid in Palmdale who they found hung and they're calling it a suicide.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  And they say it's suicide.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Two.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, come on, man.

• 37:58Rich Roll?

  I can't keep up.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Well, we have to.

• 38:01Rich Roll?

  It's crazy that

• 38:02Speaker 02

  That's the problem.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  With the world, you know, paying attention to this so closely and a spotlight on police behavior that these kinds of things would happen.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  You got protests for police brutality where police are being brutal against the people that are protesting. It's like, nobody sees this shit. Like, and people are like, well, they were out there.

• 38:23Rich Roll?

  It gets confused because you have looting and like people like

• 38:26Speaker 02

  That has nothing.

• 38:27Rich Roll?

  But I know, but that's where the attention gets dispersed.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they're doing it to people that aren't looting. It's like, are you, we all have the right to peacefully protest. Whether it's a knee in a football game, whether it's out on the street, whatever it is, we all have that right.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  And looting in every single riot. There's looting in every, that's why it has a name.

• 38:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  And half the people that are looting have shit to do with the actual cause. They're opportunists. Like, let's be honest.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Loot, there's a difference between looting and rioting. Rioting is breaking some shit and tearing some shit up. Looting is walking out with Louis Vuitton that has nothing to do with George Floyd. Like, you got people walking out with eight Nike boxes. That ain't got nothing to do with George Floyd.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  It depends if they were throwbacks, though.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  I'm just joking.

• 39:15Rich Roll?

  Nordstrom at the Grove.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's that, that's, that has nothing to do with the, and that's where.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  I gotta say the white chick, but I had, did you ever see the one when the, when the newscaster is saying, well, maybe she works there.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Cause she was a white lady walking out with all this stuff.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Thing about the white chick, she was walking slow. You always see everybody else running, trying not to get caught. She was like, this shit fits.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  This one's, I love that kind of looting.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was literally bringing it up to herself like.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  I did see video of people walking down the street with bags and then lines of cops across the street doing nothing because they were focused on, you know, whatever else and just letting that go, like.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, they could. They can't do anything about it in the shirt.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  There's another video where it's like three cops talking to a white lady while she's spray painting the building. And they're, they're, oh, oh, you literally hear her say, oh, oh, you should put George Floyd's name up there. Like, the cop tells her that, like. They're not doing, it's a white lady, they're not doing nothing to her. Like, they don't say anything wrong, like it's-

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Those are allies, those police officers.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Those are allies, we need them.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  And that's the thing, like, people are opportunists. There's another video of a lady, like, literally walking up, this guy's like, trying to board up his store and he's got the drill. And somebody caught the lady doing it. She runs up to the guy to ask if she'd take a picture with him. He hands her the drill, she's got the drill. Her husband takes a picture of her, they get back in the car and leave.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was a Benz, too.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a Benz, I'm all like, wait.

• 40:49Rich Roll?

  That was the most egregious one, because it was so blatant. Like, she literally gets out of the Benz, walks up, asks to borrow the guy's drill, poses with it like she's helping.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:01Rich Roll?

  Gets the picture taken, says, "Thank you."

• 41:03Speaker 01

  And she said, "Thank you."

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Who do we trust, like, who do we trust? Like, what's, what's the direction?

• 41:08Rich Roll?

  What is real?

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 41:11Rich Roll?

  We have these incredibly powerful images and videos that are going viral. We're all consuming them, we're trying to make sense of what's happening. And that kind of butts up against this insane news cycle where we're not sure what's real and what isn't. It's all very disorienting, just to find solid ground, like, where are we standing? And, and, you know, to, to, to, you know, continue on that idea of, of being an ally, allyship, like, how, how can, like, someone like myself be an effective ally?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  First thing I would ask for you, Rich, is to check yourself. You have to check, you have to check for your own, because we all have prejudices, right? Because we're American. We watch Archie Bunker, we watch Jeffersons, we watch Good Times, we watch Sanford and Son, we watch Friends, that had no black people until the second to last season. We watched, uh, Curb Your Speed. Like, we watch these shows that kind of, um, um, structure our pop culture. So the first thing, you gotta check yourself for your own, um-

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Your own inefficiencies or your own, like, check who you are. And once you check who you are and you check and you check your ego and you check where you believe you are, that's up, that's it. We watch each person to be as strong as that person can possibly be. And if that person really wants to be ally, they gotta make sure that they are okay with what they see too. Give example, I had a friend in Miami and he was cool, he was always with us. And then this girl he liked started dating my brother and he said, she's ruined. I go, what do you mean? Like, he doesn't have a big penis, like, don't believe the hype. She was like, no.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  He said, you know, I was like, he's like, no, she's ruined. Like, no other, like, cool white, no other white guy is gonna want her after this. And I was like, whoa. So I had to check him. I said, what do you mean by that?

• 43:27Speaker 02

  He didn't get it. He still, to this day, probably doesn't. Well, maybe now he does, but he didn't understand what he meant or what he was feeling. So that's why I say, check yourself. I, I checked myself a thousand times before getting here on what not to say and what to say and how to be as direct, without anger and with a thought as possible. Cause I do have, I grew up in an Italian Jewish neighborhood. My first friends were probably white and black besides my brothers. And Ronnie Rosenbaum is still my, one of my best friends. And we check each other constantly, constantly.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  And, you know, well, we won't even make, well, back in the day, we would make jokes, you know, cause it was. But now we figure out maybe those jokes that we make aren't so good for the psyche either. So I constantly check myself. That's the first thing I think.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it also has to be a point where. As far as holding yourself accountable, that's huge. And you have to look back and say, damn, I was a part of that, too. Like, and being okay with that, not beating yourself up. As an ally, you have to understand, like, oh damn, when they did crack that joke. And every, every white person I know, I don't care how much they try to deny it, has heard a family member, a coworker, a friend, whatever it is, when they would know, anything anybody else was looking, they slipped in the N word in some joke. Or, or they were being dead serious, telling the parent. Like, I posted a couple of weeks ago about this white girl that was talking to her parents. And the parents were like, well, no, black people want to be in the ghetto.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  They don't want to succeed, you know? That's, that's, that's their problem. And the white girl's like, no, that's not the problem. It's like, yeah, but they're like animals and this and that. Like, like, this is still going on today.

• 45:26Rich Roll?

  Whoa.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying? So for people to see that, you have to understand that everybody has to speak up. This little seven, I think she was seventeen or something like that. If this seventeen year old girl can speak up, everybody has to speak up. And you have to nip it in the bud. You literally have to, when you hear something racist, you see something racist, speak up about it. I think people are, we talked about it earlier, are too uncomfortable. Oh, we're talking with Greg outside, yeah. They're too uncomfortable with being shunned. Like, no, you're not going to be liked by everybody. But at least be, if somebody gonna hate you, let them hate you for doing the right thing. You know, there's a lot of people like, I, I know that's wrong over there, but I'm not gonna say anything because my family and friends might not talk to me.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  All right, if those people don't want to talk to you for doing the right thing, fuck them. Like, literally, like, that, that's showing you their character.

• 46:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. I mean, I think that's an example of egregious overt racism. I think the real, the harder. Hill to climb and the more pernicious problem is kind of what you were speaking to, John, like the idea that, that, uh, that there are a lot of people, most people who, who will tell you, I'm not racist, you know, and I don't have a racist bone in my body and I don't see color. And the blind spot for them and for myself is, is that, is the systemic aspect of all of this. Like when you have watched all those television programs growing up, like I grew up in a white neighborhood. I mean, there's, you

• 46:59Rich Roll?

  know, I went to school some with some black people, but it's like I'm, I'm not, I didn't, I wasn't reared in black culture, right? And, and so

• 47:07Speaker 02

  You were.

• 47:08Rich Roll?

  I was, well, I was culture, pop culture, yeah, for sure. And sports and all of that. But this has brought up for me, the work that I need to do to like unravel that knot and, and to kind of identify those, those blind spots that I have within myself because, you know, I would, I would look you straight in the eye and say, I've never done anything racist. I don't harbor racist thoughts and all of that. But because of the way I was raised and the people I've surrounded myself my whole life, it's impossible that there isn't some kind of deeply embedded imprint that I need to like look at and unravel.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  You said, you said, uh, I said this before, a guy said, I don't have a racist bone in my body. I said, no, but you got a racist heart. Not you, Rich, not you. What I mean, to give you an example, I grew up in a white neighborhood. You said that. So you knew.

• 48:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  You knew.

• 48:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Well, that's what I mean. You grew in a neighborhood that was white.

• 48:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  That means you grew up in a neighborhood that separated you from black people.

• 48:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  That's racist.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  So from the beginning of your being, they separated you from us because of their thought and fear of us. So when you only know this, when you see this, you only, when you see it, you go, mommy, what's that? They give you the Cliff Notes.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Oh, that's them over there.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Right. So that starts it. That starts racism when they separated you and when they didn't include in the beginning. So that's where it starts. The other part is visualization as a young, young. We, I said this, I said, what needs to be done, nobody wants to do. Right? Everybody wants to be a martyr, but they forget you gotta die.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  You gotta die for those shit.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  So no one wants to do what needs to be done. And when I say it, I lose so-called followers. I put myself in a position, but this is it. I'm gonna say it on your show, cuz I love you. The only way to erase racism is to take the picture of white Jesus out of every church in the world. If you don't erase the thought of God being white, it's going to constantly stay this way. Every, I was gonna post every statue they're taking down with Confederate. They need to go on a black church and take the white Jesus off the wall. And they won't do it. Because the white Jesus was established across to do exactly what it's doing.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  But this is what got us to this point. In Brazil, I was in Bahia, Brazil. There's 365 churches in the city of Bahia. This is the first place that they, the first place they did slaves. They bring slaves into Bahia. They, they still, they, they will show you the dances, the capoeira. They will show you the, the, the, uh, the cells where they bring you up from. It's, it's, it's a whole tour.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  365 churches, so every day you can go to a different church and worship Jesus Christ. And every picture in there is white. There's gold flaking on the wall, people living in the streets. There's, it's always been this way. So in order to stop racism, you have to stop preaching it when it comes to faith and religion. If that's not done, we're gonna stay here.

• 50:51Rich Roll?

  There's gonna be a little bit of resistance to that.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Oh, it's gonna be.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 50:56Rich Roll?

  Did you hear?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  In Detroit, during 1968, when they went in, they painted Madonna black. So it's called the Shrine of the Black Madonna.

• 51:06Rich Roll?

  There's just no way Jesus was white. I mean, it's absurd.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  You can't, you can't tell me that, cuz I, I saw him in a picture.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Right, in a picture, you know?

• 51:16Speaker 02

  My whole life. He looked like, uh, he had, he had pretty brown hair and...

• 51:21Speaker 01

  He looked like Robin Thicke before he's...

• 51:23Speaker 02

  He was the best looking German dude I've ever seen, man. A German guy without getting his head, like, we, it's just not gonna, and you know, black people will defend that. Like, there's some black churches were, asked this, hey, let's take the picture of the white Jesus down. They said, no. They said, no, it doesn't mean anything. They said, it means everything. It means everything because it means that if the son of God is white, God is white. If the son of John Sally came out white, we would blood test.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Right? So if the son of God is white, God is white. That is establishing that that's the supreme. So where do you get white supremacy? That's the beginning of white supremacy.

• 52:09Rich Roll?

  Super interesting, yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  So...

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  Did you see, uh, Cornel West talking to Anderson Cooper on CNN the other day?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love Cornel.

• 52:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, what a, what an incredible, uh, monologuer he is. I mean, that was like so powerful. And one of the things he said was, um, the, you know, the blowback is coming. Like, make no mistake, like, there, there, this is not gonna go quietly into the night and just, you know, manifest, you know, beautiful change without a lot of resistance to this. So, you know, how do you think about that? Like, where do you see that coming from? And how do we, you know, prepare for that?

• 52:48Speaker 01

  I think, I think it's spot on. Like, there's... It's so interesting that people want, they want people to be peaceful in protest. They don't mind the cops being aggressive and getting the protesters out of there. But when somebody's murdered, like Dave Chappelle, if he just put out a

• 53:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, did you watch 846?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  That was, I, not to get too far off subject, but I don't think anybody can bring a story together like he can, like with so many different aspects that just tie in together. But it's just like, people have to be willing to understand how long we have been quiet. It's like you see all the memes, like, well, we tried to protest peacefully by taking a knee. Nothing happens. We tried to protest peacefully on the street. Nothing happens. We tried to protest peacefully online. Nothing happens. We burn some shit. Everybody shows up. Well, damn. All right. Well, now you showing up. All right. Okay. Well, now you're here. Now let's talk. You know, and I'm with, I'm with John on this too. Like, I, man, I know people work hard for their business.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  So I definitely don't want to see that happen. But I also know that sometimes in order to get the point across.

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  Shit's gotta go down.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Shit's gotta go down.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  I hate, I hate it that it does.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  I hate it. I hate that. And I wish we could find, if we could find another way to get them attention. But then we also gotta look at the setup that comes along with this too. Like, nobody ever talks about this. They talk about the random bricks that just show up all the time.

• 54:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  For people to throw. But has anybody ever tripped off, why is there always a random fucking cop car? For like the extra scene on Street Fighter, remember you just beat up the cop car and you get all these extra points? Like, it's just always an empty cop car for everybody to burn up and spray paint and beat the hell out of. When on a normal day.

• 54:39Rich Roll?

  Like a prop for a photo op.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Like a prop.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  So that we can say that this is out of control.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. When on a normal day, have you ever just seen a random cop car on the street?

• 54:48Rich Roll?

  With the windows down?

• 54:48Speaker 01

  With the windows down. No cop around. No cop.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Hey, I tell you this, no one likes the truth. That's why it's a hard thing when you gotta go in yourself and check yourself. And you know how many times I had to check myself if I wasn't being a house negro or a field negro? I had to check myself I wasn't being house. I use the word negro because it. It's a little different, but.

• 55:11Rich Roll?

  And you think that's why the NFL players acted the way they did with the Kaepernick thing? They were scared of their job.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  They were, and you had owners telling you if you do it, you out.

• 55:23Rich Roll?

  We're finding you this amount of money. What do you think about what Goodell just said?

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Well, I gotta text Drew Brees. I text Drew Brees as soon as it happened.

• 55:33Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Tried, I said, let me help you through this. Let me explain it to you. And then he sent back a wonderful text saying, sorry, I didn't get back to you. Obviously, I've been inundated. But, yo, I apologize. I had to recheck what I was saying, what I meant. I said at the wrong time. But I now know where I was wrong. I was like, perfect.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  I love what Goodell, I love Goodell. I love what Goodell said, and I think he should say, we should do this now, and we should pay more attention. I think he's stepping up and saying that. Great. I'm glad he did.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Talking about giving people their jobs back and all that. All he can do is apologize for mistakes. But right now Kyrie Irving is telling guys, when they're trying to get the NBA season to start back in Orlando, he's saying, I don't think we should be playing basketball right now. And then if the ballplayer, if the black ballplayers don't back Kyrie Irving, I'm telling you.

• 56:27Rich Roll?

  He's gonna get pushed out, marginalized.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  No. The ones who don't follow Kyrie Irving are the ones who are gonna get pushed out. They're gonna get pushed out from our community, because I'm gonna make sure of it. Those who don't join the fight, if you ain't with us, you against us. George W. Bush.

• 56:47Rich Roll?

  Well, the Drew Brees thing, back to the Drew Brees thing. I mean, that whole situation kind of perfectly encapsulates so much, right? Here's a guy who just said absolutely the worst possible thing he could ever say in that moment. And it was just, looking at that, I was just thinking, how could he, like, what was going through his mind? That he thought that was the right thing to do?

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Grew up in a white neighborhood.

• 57:12Rich Roll?

  I will give him.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  My point, too.

• 57:13Rich Roll?

  And then he got, I mean, the whole world put him on blast. The internet just went insane. I will give him credit that he did a pretty good job with his apology. Like, he really, he didn't just walk it back and do kind of like that, you know? The textbook apology. Like, you could tell he put a lot of thought into it. And I do think it's important in this moment where there's a breakdown in civil discourse and we're finding it more and more difficult to actually just have hard conversations where you, John Sally, can say, you could speak your mind, you could speak your truth.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  That's why I love.

• 57:46Rich Roll?

  We need to have, we need to have this, like regardless of your opinion or whether we disagree or not, like that is the path forward here. And right now, our culture is so fraught and everybody's so terrified of saying the wrong thing that a lot of people are sitting on the sidelines and remaining quiet in a moment where I think we need to be conversing in public, out loud. And when you see Drew Brees and what he did, we need to understand that when someone makes a mistake like that, that we have to provide them the opportunity to redeem themselves. We can't just cancel them forever. Like if we want

• 58:27Rich Roll?

  to grow and learn from this moment right now, we have to be able to celebrate the wins and figure out how to fan the flames of positive change without just the, you know, shoving aside of the people who don't fall in line with whatever talking points are deemed socially acceptable in the moment.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  And I think that speaks to all aspects of this problem from all different lenses.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  And I think, and I believe in cancel culture is used too much, but I do believe sometimes it is needed. Like, like I would say this, if Brees's speech was, wasn't speech, but his interview, if what he would have said was straight hateful and you knew it was a hateful tone, then.

• 59:10Rich Roll?

  That was different.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Then just, then just apologizing, that shit just doesn't work. You know, I think we gotta stop doing that too as black people like, well, he apologized even though he said, I hate fucking black people and he apologized later.

• 59:23Rich Roll?

  That is different.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Like, but we, we got situations like that where people literally been hateful and, but then they start looking at their money, their dollar, and they're like, oh, I need to go apologize. They don't apologize because it's the right thing to do because you probably wouldn't have said the first thing in the first place.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Let me give you a little history. George Wallace was the governor of Alabama.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  When that walk across Selma Bridge happened and he wanted, he wanted exactly what happened when they crossed the bridge, people getting beat, everything to when the president had to send the National Guard in to tell him not to kill these black folks. He then had a stroke when he got older and his nurse was black. And literally saving his life every day. And he apologized and all these black people put their hands on him. I, I got it in the Jet magazine and my mom's made sure, I said, you see some people you can, you can, you can go back and realize it's gonna come back the one day, the people

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  that you hurt are gonna come back and the ones you gonna, you gonna need. And I thought about it. I like all of these guys. I love what Drew said. I liked that they came back and I like that when people, like you said, get a chance to redeem themselves. But he would not have said that if he didn't grow up thinking the other way. That's why you having us on this show, me in particular, only being my second time, but don't worry about it.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  It's only my second time.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, bullshit.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Come back anytime. Last, we were joking before the podcast, the first time you came in, you just, you got up in the middle and said, you gotta go pick up your daughter.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  I did?

• 1:01:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you remember that?

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, man. So she was, uh, right down the street from your crib too. I was having a rough daughter time that, ooh, you in trouble.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  My daughter flipped out from 14 to 16, like tripped. I was looking around, I was like, who, who?

• 1:01:31Rich Roll?

  I'm in a little bit of that right now.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, I was like, hormones and penises will do some crazy things.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Mine, mine's only four, so I'm just, I'm enjoying the ride right now.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't wait till she starts smelling guys from a distance. He smells cute. Jesus Christ, what was going on? I wanted to write a book just on raising daughters. I would've got killed, but man, it would've been tough.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  All right, but I stepped on your point.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, it's just, you, we do, we can't do to cancel culture. And people do make mistakes and black people always, always forgive. Just remember that. Don't, don't ever think that they hate me, they're never gonna get it. Black people, and the reason I tell you the George Wallace thing is because he was the most hateful guy. He was so mad that the University of Alabama put the, it was so funny in Forrest Gump. When they talked about putting the football players and Bear Bryant was like, I don't care what you're saying. You know, I'm putting them on the field. He was so hateful, but when it came down to when his life depended on it, it was only black people around him. There was no white folks around him.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  And he apologized and he apologized and apologized. And, and I want y'all to realize that when you make those apologies and they're heartfelt, black people will put their arm around you.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  And it can't be a one-time apology.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Like, you might have to apologize for the rest of your fucking life, but be okay with it.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Well, that's in his mama house, the mama house of you. Remember that time?

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but I'm saying though, cause, because the thing is, you might have put out a press release, you might have put out something saying you apologize now, but that don't mean everybody else heard it right then. So you know what I'm saying? Like, but we'll, we'll circulate us all the negativity. So if, if it comes down like Drew Brees talking about, you know, disrespecting the flag. All right, you put out the press release, you know, basically saying, I'm sorry that I shouldn't have done that. But that doesn't mean, just because you got over it, that the other person got over it that you were talking about. Mm-hmm. So you might have, it's just like, I mean, if you in a relationship. It's a starting point. Yeah, if you in a relationship and you mess up, you might have to apologize for the rest of that relationship. And if you plan on having a relationship with black people, you might have to apologize over and over and over.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Or make the living amends. It's about the behavior.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  It's your intention too.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  How is he gonna change his behavior? Cause the proof is, I mean, and I hate when people say this, it's not in the pudding for everybody out there. It's not, proof is in the pudding, it's, proof is in the put in, but people in America mess up the whole quote.

• 1:04:01Rich Roll?

  That sounds like some crazy badass vegan quote.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is some badass.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  I've been stealing it.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  I've been writing t-shirts down every time I'm around this motherfucker.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  But the proof is in the put in, is actually what you put in.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  Hey, I gotta go get my daughter.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  And that's what

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  As soon as you're talking too much. If it's not on me, I'm done.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  No, I gotta give my daughter.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  That's what you all time. That's like my mentor, my older brother for real anyway. So like a lot of times.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  I've been around him his almost most of your life.

• 1:04:31Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that. I mean, I knew you guys knew each other. I didn't know.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  How old were you when I, when I first was your camp counselor?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Don't listen to this shit.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  How old were you?

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  It sounds, sounds like a messed up story coming from.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  But no, how old were you?

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  I didn't, I didn't say in the boys home. I didn't say in the boys home, the juvenile home you were in. I didn't mention that.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  We, we've known each other about 10 years, about 10 years, I would say.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  It's funny though, I wore his jersey number when I was a kid though.

• 1:05:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  I was a fan.

• 1:05:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I didn't know he was fucking crazy back then, but I, I was a fan.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  You know, I used to have my own sneaker, right? And I was like one of the first guys.

• 1:05:23Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that, but like, of course you did.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  I did. My brother, my brother was on it. And so it was called Osaga and we sold it at Kenny's shoe stores. Cause we thought, yeah, we, we only sell them for $40 so people can afford that, right?

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Same Marbury mentality. They don't cost that much to make. And, and somebody says, yo, man, I pay Osagas and I swear, I don't know if it's because I started smoking weed 20 years ago. I was like, what the hell is an Osaga?

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  So when people would say I was a fan, I go, nevermind.

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  I got so many businesses. I don't even remember that one.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  I was like, oh, I used to play basketball. That's right. I couldn't imagine jumping and hitting somebody and my knees right now just tweaked even thinking about it.

• 1:06:07Rich Roll?

  All that self-care.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Rich, I was playing this guy like this.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  All that CBD.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  I was playing this cool kid and this kid did a move and he went around me. He went around me so fast and my legs didn't move, which used to be just, you know, it's like instinct. He went around me so fast, this way, I had to look this, this. I said, I looked at my legs, I said, that's, that's, that's what we're doing?

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Is it? And my wife was like, what happened? My legs don't work anymore. She goes, do your legs hurt? I was like, huh? How long ago? Uh, it was 10 years ago now. I'm 56 now, I'm 46, I knew. That's why I couldn't understand Kareem played, he was 42, Robert Parish, Kobe playing to his I could not imagine playing 20 years on the field. It, it, to me right now, when I see people, when I, you still run? Yeah. I wish I can still. I got some back stuff though, I'm working on. Yeah. I got some. What kind of products you got for me? Ah, man, I got some unbelievable, I wouldn't mention, I wouldn't mention one company, but they didn't do the deal yet, Quanta.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Put a little pressure on them.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little pressure, yeah. But definitely, I, I wish my legs still worked the same.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  There, there's another company too, that same thing, I was working on something with them, didn't go through, but the shit worked though. Like I, they actually got me thinking about playing ball again, like my knees.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Canterberr?

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  I had surgery on both knees, nah, um, I don't even know if I want to say them. They cool people though.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I put something on, and I was like, hey, I can, let's go for a run. My wife was like, well, I don't want to hear you for five days. She goes, the Pelotons over there. I was like, oh, man, you know. You ride the Peloton? Yeah. I said, nah, and they, and they walked, they came in the house and said, uh, guess what? This works for your height and this, we have another seven footer, so no excuses, and here's some 15s. I was like, damn, I gotta do this thing. Yeah, but it's, it's, I, I tried swimming again. That was great. That was great, but, and.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  See, you just destroyed the myth about a black person not being able to swim.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  I know, my mother made me learn how to swim and ice skate and read. Swim, ice skate and read. I like to see your stroke in the pool. Oh, yeah, you know who was a really good swimmer? Shaquille, Shaquille swims. Is he? Yeah, like that was his, yeah, man. And then he can get out of the thing and act like a, like a whale, let me slide back in the water. He's like a great swimmer. And I was like, I got this pool, I'm gonna go swimming again. Oh, that shit is hard.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Oh, uh, Alpine Organics is the name is, but they, they got a CBD cream that like.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Like, put it this way, I was at like an eight or 10 with my knees.

• 1:08:52Rich Roll?

  Pain?

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  And I'm easily at a zero to two now.

• 1:08:55Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  And anybody that's been through an eight to 10 pain will take zero to two.

• 1:08:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  In a heartbeat. Now, mind you, it's got me wanting to go play ball again, but probably the first time I step on the court, my knees are gonna be like, no, this is not what this is for. I can't even shoot a hook shot. I tried it. I went on my court the other day and I said, I'm just, you know what? I'm just gonna do some, so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna jump that much.

• 1:09:16Rich Roll?

  You have a court at your house?

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm not gonna jump that much. I'm just gonna do this. Man, I took about six shots. I was like, I need to hit the ball. Where's my puppy? It's like, this is crazy.

• 1:09:28Rich Roll?

  All right, let's shift gears here. I want to talk about the doc. Can we talk about the doc?

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:09:32Rich Roll?

  Partner for Justice.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. You wanna give me your name?

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're gonna, yeah, we're building up to it.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  We're building up to it.

• 1:09:39Rich Roll?

  I want to hear what it is, but you partnered up with, with our boy Keegan, who's the guy behind What the Health and Calciency. Tell us a little bit about this movie. I mean, you guys are still in production.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we were scheduled to be done shooting in June, but with the pandemic and everything, we had to put it back. So we're focused on releasing it by the end of the year. The film is about social justice and food justice through the lens of hip hop. Our current, you know, if anybody's seen What the Health, this is like the official follow-up to What the Health. And we've, John's in the movie, Neo, Maya, Stiles P, Stick from Dead Prez, Rory. Waka Flocka? Waka, we talked, but he didn't, he didn't want to do it. We did talk about it, but, you know, and that's cool.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Like, I know it's not for everybody, like some, because we go very in-depth in this and we're calling out major brands, major government, all kinds of stuff.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  And sometimes it's just, everybody don't want to talk about it. So I get it. I don't hold it personal when nobody doesn't want to be in the documentary or anything like that.

• 1:10:51Rich Roll?

  But it's like, the idea is it's addressing food injustice and like nutritional poverty in the, in the African-American community.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  How certain foods literally are detrimental to the health of people of color. I mean, just like, science has shown it, all these lab tests, everything, and then the government still allows it to be sold.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  And one of the greatest stories I saw was that we were looking at an advertisement from either one of the major baby formula companies. And they showed them handing it to me in the movie. And he's handing it to me and I'm reading it and it literally says, mother's breast milk is not sufficient for the growth of babies. So you're telling people, which is targeted to people of color, that

• 1:11:45Rich Roll?

  The thing that has been creating humans since humans were a thing.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  That's not good enough. That's why you need this baby formula. That's full of fucking cow's milk. That's detrimental to people of color already. So 70% of all allergies are related to the ingestion of animal milk.

• 1:12:06Rich Roll?

  Lactose.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Lactose intolerance. So if you starting them off with that, you're not even giving them breast milk. Like, people don't even know how much DNA is transferred to a baby from their mother's breast milk.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Not even from your mother's breast milk?

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Just another human.

• 1:12:22Rich Roll?

  Another human.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And when you dial it back to the actual mother, the mother, the breast milk actually will change its formula to fit what the baby needs. And that's how crazy science is. They're like, no, no, no. Don't do that.

• 1:12:42Rich Roll?

  We gotta figure it out.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  We got this product here for you.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  We need to lessen, we need to lessen the male African.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Reproduction. That's, you can say it. Tell them what you want to say. We're on the show. The deal is, they put foods in. The reason I got involved is the first, the first title was, they killing us. Literally spelled in Ebonics. They killing us. Not they are, not there, not maybe. They are, without saying that, they killing us. That's when I was like, keep that title. Because it literally means something more than just, it's Ebonic. It's, the way I just said it is black, American, period. But they changed it.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  Hungry for justice.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Hungry for justice, but now the official title of the film is they're trying to kill us. That's the official title.

• 1:13:41Rich Roll?

  Not they, not they are.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  No, it's yeah, they're, they're trying to kill us. They are trying to kill us, which, and that's what they're showing. That's what we're showing, like, this whole system is set up to where you're, you're eating this certain food. And it's going to lead to these multiple different either ailments, diseases, whatever. And then when that happens, now you have to go get this pill. And the pill doesn't work long enough because none of the pills say that they cure anything. They say help you deal with this, with the, uh,

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  Symptoms.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  With the symptoms of. So it's duct tape. Like, if you notice, there's nothing out there, any of these commercials, they'll give you 85 side effects. May cause anal leakage and all this other shit, but your headache's gone. You know what I'm saying? Like, so they start talking about all these different things. And if that doesn't work, guess what? Now you need the surgery. Now the surgery's $30,000 and after surgery, guess what you gotta do? You gotta take some more pills to deal with the lack of whatever we cut out of you.

• 1:14:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Because you can't produce it anymore yourself. Or what they don't talk about is right over here, we got this food that you could just eat. That's like grown from the ground and will prevent.

• 1:14:50Rich Roll?

  Talk, talk a little bit about how this impacts, um, black and African American communities disproportionately from other communities. Because could you make that argument that that would be the case, whoever the customer is?

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you could say that that is the case, but what we've noticed is, uh, proportionally that grocery stores

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  are not

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  spread around the country evenly.

• 1:15:18Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  So you look at lower income communities, they'll have a bodega, maybe they'll maybe have a, a gas station.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  And what we've noticed is that people call it food deserts. It's not really food deserts, it's nutrition deserts. There's food there, but where's the nutrition in it? Hmm. You know, you got a pack of peanuts, it's got eighteen ingredients in it, when all it needs is just peanuts. You know, it's, what you get to see is that these people in these certain demographics are predominantly people of color. So, yeah, you might have, and you get people with the, you know, the outline factor, like, yeah, there are some white people that live in this community. Mm-hmm. But predominantly, it's people of color. So that's what they're showing, and that's what we're showing, is that you're starting off already in a negative playing field. Right. You know, they're already, let's say you're climbing to the top of the mountain.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  We gave him a five-hour head start, and we gave him shoes. You know what I'm saying? Now, you get up that mountain too, you catch him. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's so many things across the board, without giving it a whole movie way, but, um, you know, like, for instance, we're in, we're in L.A. right now. If people want to really see the, the difference, I want them to go to Beverly Hills and tell me the address of the McDonald's in Beverly Hills.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  And if somebody actually gives you the address of McDonald's in Beverly Hills, they're fucking lying, because there's not one. There's not one McDonald's in Beverly Hills? You won't find it in Beverly Hills. I didn't even know that.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  And the four, Beverly Hills is four point four miles wide, supposedly like that.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  You won't find a McDonald's, you won't find a Popeyes, you won't find...

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  And one car, and one, one, um, one gasoline store, and it's the highest gasoline in the world, in the country.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Uh-huh. Oh, that fancy one with the fancy roof.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know what you mean.

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  People still come up and work on your car.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Uh-huh. So that's where you get to see where they know what they're doing. They're putting things in certain areas to feed.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  The, the white America and the people of color.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  And just because you, like, what we try to say, like, that doesn't mean you're racist, that you've been a part of this, this matrix for so long. It's like, no, but once you realize it.

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  That's, that speaks to the systemic aspect of all of this. Sort of reinforces this, this, um, you know, the disproportionate outcomes. I mean, when you look at black Americans and the incidence of diabetes and obesity, and I mean, and you compare, you line that up against white populations and it's pretty shocking.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  And it's what we've been taught. We've been conditioned to believe that we have to eat any certain foods. We've been conditioned to believe that we will have these certain ailments and these certain diseases. But nobody's coming to tell us, you know, that's actually preventable over there. You don't have to get this shit. You know what I'm saying? But we think we gotta have a certain way to eat. We gotta, and most of that stuff, if you trace it back, started off with slavery as well. So you were given this food and one thing about black people, we will turn anything you give us into gold. If you give us a fucked up situation, we're gonna make the best of it. The problem is, is that we're still holding on to that fucked up situation. Every time we eat these certain foods and it's still keeping us in the system.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  The one thing is there's a loophole. There's a loophole. Like, the good food that's available out there is available for everybody, but they make you see a dollar hamburger and you think that that's a better value. But in reality, you can get more fruits and vegetables for the week under a certain budget than you would if you were to go buy a steak and all these processed stuff.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  But part of the deal is, is fast food. And in our community,

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  usually parents work more than one job.

• 1:19:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  And it has been a lot of times where it's been single parent home, either a single mom or single dad.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Mostly mom. So mom doesn't have the time. Or the wherewithal to go get those vegetables, make it into a meal. Unless they're Ethiopian. If they're Ethiopian, they know what to do with the lentils in the corner. You're trained that way. But in America, we're trained, here, take some money, go get you and your sister something to eat and come back.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  We'll go five dollars, go.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  And whatever you can get for five dollars is going to be your food for the night. And the food that you're getting is not food. So it doesn't digest, but it swells your stomach. And so if you're getting no nutrients and you're getting no strength, then you have no ability to fight. If you've got no ability to fight, you would have no ability to reproduce. If you have no ability to reproduce, they lessen your sperm count. They add tons of, um, obesity has gone through, your self-esteem has dropped. And there's crime on the street, so you can't leave your house.

• 1:20:24Speaker 02

  So this is constantly put into a situation to make us fight amongst ourselves while being sick. And that's, that's where it comes into, is why, like you said, I did it and why we had to put better restaurants. But I'm gonna get an argument from somebody, no matter what.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  When they were like, Sal, I mean, I was talking to Shaq and he was like, so I shouldn't eat fried chicken?

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  And I was like, nah, you know, the, and you eating the skin too? And, and there's an oil and it's gonna get into you. So, okay, I saw you telling, you telling black people not to eat chicken. Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:04Rich Roll?

  That's exactly what I'm saying.

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  That's it. But, but his film is gonna hit, like he said. He's gonna get sued a lot. He's gonna get sued a lot.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Oh, he's sued.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  But I think, I think your boy knows. I think your boy is smart. He'll know how to get around.

• 1:21:20Rich Roll?

  He knows how to stir it up, for sure, right? He's, he's proven that a couple times already.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Collective effort here, like we, I mean, it's funny, I talked to him. Every day, like every day. And we always are coming up with like brainstorming ideas like, oh shit, let's do this. Yeah, let's do this. Oh, cuz you know when they see this, they gonna be pissed. Perfect cuz we want people.

• 1:21:41Rich Roll?

  Cuz he's a punk, his punk rock thing.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Our, our goal, and this is the thing too, for everybody out there, I don't want people to think that Keegan is running this film. I don't know why people think, like I had somebody.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  If I were you, I would let them think that cuz when they get sued, let them sue.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  But like.

• 1:21:58Rich Roll?

  Listen, ask the lawyer right there.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  I had somebody, uh, they disagree with one of my posts, like I was like, you know, like all these vegan corporations that, and organizations that are, that reached out to me about like, hey, we need to promote the black people, but now you're silent. I'm like, fuck y'all, like, like I'm, I'm being honest, like, no, fuck y'all. And they were like, oh, I hope Keegan sees this and he drops him from the film. I'm like. I was like, first of all, Keegan reposted this shit.

• 1:22:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's totally on board with that idea.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  Totally on board. And second of all, I'm like, that plays into the whole mindset of like, well, I'll go report to the white guy that the black guys over here acting up. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, the mentality that comes with that is crazy.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  That's wild.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, but it's so.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  You are a troublemaker.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  I am a troublemaker. I, I am. But, but I'm only a troublemaker because people don't wanna hold on to the old fake shit.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  You're a troublemaker.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if, you know, like.

• 1:22:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, vegan Instagram's a shit show right now.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  The truth, the truth only hurts so much if you live in a lie. That's the truth.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  That's what I said.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  If you live in a lie, the truth is gonna fucking hurt.

• 1:23:08Speaker 02

  You know what I heard yesterday?

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. It was the greatest, uh, greatest thing. There was a guy heckling and saying something. And he said, don't worry about it. And he goes, no, he goes, you know what? If you throw a brick at a bunch of, at a pack of dogs, only the one that gets hit by the brick howls. So the only the people that get upset.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Exactly, right.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  Are the ones who are going to say something about what you're doing.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  The ones that the brick hits, the one that hits them, then they have something, they got something to howl for.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Like I say, I say it all the time. I was like, look, I don't, I might put the shoe out there, but I don't name the name of the shoe. I don't even say what size it is, but there's always some motherfucker coming along saying this shoe fits. And if the shoe fits, you wear it. Like, that's fine with me. But I don't name out anybody. I name out the actions. And I'm like, if you fit these actions, that's you.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  So we have no sponsors for the. We're done with sponsors.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Nah, he is.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  Jesus Christ. That's where the Kickstarter comes in.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Somebody needs to take over your Twitter, Donald Trump.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  We do have the.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  Give it, give it here. You're killing us.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  We do have a, we do have a crowdfunding going on for the film and it's to, to make sure that people are involved in the film even more than what they are.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  You remember the name of it?

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  What is it, the crowdfunding?

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Uh, it's gonna be on our, on our website, they're trying to kill us dot com.

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  They're trying to kill us.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  They're trying to kill us.

• 1:24:29Rich Roll?

  Is that website up right now?

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's up, it's, it's up. Well, it'll be up by the time you put the show on.

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  How we spell it, how we spell it? They are?

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  They're.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  They're.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  T H E Y R E. There's no apostrophe on websites, everybody.

• 1:24:43Rich Roll?

  By the time this movie comes out, I think Sean's gonna win this argument.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  I, I said it when he said it, I was like, oh my God. But it's so funny.

• 1:24:55Rich Roll?

  Has anybody made a nutrition focused documentary about the black and African?

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:02Rich Roll?

  Communities, people of color communities in America?

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  There was one called The Invisible Vegan. I don't wanna, I don't wanna leave her out.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  It was.

• 1:25:08Rich Roll?

  It's on Amazon. Vegan or otherwise, just like, get healthy.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, no, I think, I think before her, I don't think anybody else really made one to focus on people of color. And it's so needed because it's just,

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  I don't think anybody was in a position to make it at the same time. Like I just, I've been fortunate to be able to in a position where, you know, Keegan's, we've been friends for a long time. And he asked me, he was like, man, I wanna do a film, man, with you. Cause he's seen my work and other stuff I've done, social justice and always speaking up and doing speeches. And he's like, let's work together. He's like, I wanna, I wanna reach a different demographic. I was like, well, you know, like, let's, let's go for the people of color. Like they need us. He's like, yeah, but I don't know how. I was like hip hop. Like my first idea was like hip hop. I was like, hip hop runs everything, like. And I say if you ever wanna-

• 1:25:58Rich Roll?

  Powerful cultural force in the universe.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  If you ever, if you ever wanna understand how strong hip hop is, say if you close your eyes, you can see a bunch of six foot white guys on skates with Jay-Z playing in the background. And you just talked about the NHL.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Like, that's how powerful it is. The biggest-

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Hip hop green?

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, hip hop is green. But, you know, look at the biggest Broadway show right now.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Hip hop infused, you know what I'm saying? So it's like-

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  So what about unhealthy vegans though? Are we, uh, were we only talking about the black unhealthy vegans? Or, like, when you say nutrition, uh, like, what are, what are we, what are we, what point are we getting?

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Well, we are trying to get people to be healthy. That's the, that's the thing. Like, there's, there's a big confusion of like, veganism and healthy veganism. Like, there, there are some vegan products out there that taste like burger, taste like cheese, taste like that. And sure, in moderation, but what we're trying to do is get people to be vegan for health. It was about, it was about healing.

• 1:27:01Rich Roll?

  In, in your movie, uh, you know, what is the path forward? Like, what are the solutions that you're, for, you know, providing people with?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  That's, that's one of the biggest things is I wanted to be solution-based with the movie. Um, that's one of the biggest things I told Keegan. So one of them is, uh, we're working on, uh, actual programs, like more learning programs afterwards. Uh, we're showing them how to eat within the movie, showing them where to get fruits and vegetables, where to get, uh, nuts, legumes and rice, whatever it kind of be, but how to put it together, um, that's beneficial to them as well. Like, we also, I don't want them to feel like, all right, we gave you this problem, but we didn't show you how to take care of yourself. Um, showing them like, a lot of the different, uh, studies and everything,

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  showing how the reversal of all these diseases can be incorporated with this plant-based eating, uh, vegan eating, whatever the case is. Um, one of the biggest things too is like, we, we were working on a, an actual meal plan, like actual product to be very affordable. So, you know, we do see that like a lot of the vegan items are out of the price range for a lot of people. Um, I actually had some talks with a store brand, Whole Foods, if you're listening, let's get that going. But we were working on, uh, having it to where people who watch the film, they could get- These meal plans from Whole Foods at an affordable rate.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  And also have them delivered since before the pandemic, you know, delivery was still a thing. With Whole Foods and having it delivered to them because when I had a meeting with Whole Foods, I told them, I was like,

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  you know, you can build a Whole Foods in the hood, right next door to a mom with six kids and she's still not coming. Cause for her to get all six kids in the car, get them ready, or even if it's a dad, I don't want to sound the wrong way. Whoever, a parent, a single parent with kids, for them to get them in the car, get them over there, get them there. But now if we provide a solution, what we're literally putting it on the doorstep for them. This is already made, all you gotta do is heat it up. You know what I'm saying? And I'm not, this is not like a business.

• 1:29:12Rich Roll?

  Just making it as easy as possible, right? And like expanding the perimeter, the delivery perimeter also because those Whole Foods are far away.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  And, and we're talking about Amazon, they are, you know, they have the capability to reach everybody. They're already delivering, like why not have it to where they give it to them there? And I'm, I mean, while it's, I have been in talks with other stores as well, so if it doesn't work out with Whole Foods, it's gonna work out.

• 1:29:36Rich Roll?

  Right, well, whatever the solution is, it's gotta be convenient, affordable, you know, easy. And there has to be an education piece to it.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  And there's education piece, we're actually showing them like, hey, if you don't want us to make stuff, here's also stuff that you can do at home on your own, get the kids involved. So I think that's a big thing too, is like, we don't involve our kids in the, in the process of making our food. So when the food is on the table, like, why'd you give me this? You know, and so now it's like involving the whole family, if they have time. Cause we also know, like you said, you got single parents or whatever, working two, three jobs. I was raised in a single family household, you know, my mom was working her ass off. Cause she was a manager for, uh, Bell South or Pacific Bell, but it was Southwestern Bell where we were. And as a black person in the eighties, as a managing role, a black lady at that,

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  she was putting in extra hours that the white guy that worked under her wasn't even putting in. Because she had to show that she was capable of this job. So, you know, I ate chicken damn near every night, cause it was frozen chicken from Sam's Club.

• 1:30:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  It was easy.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  I unplugged, uh, my microwave.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  Told my daughters it was broke.

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  And they found out. But and then one day I just started putting Koya Webb taught me, I just put a whole bunch of dishes in there. So when they went to use it. They were too lazy. They were too lazy to do it. Yeah. I made them.

• 1:31:02Rich Roll?

  That was all it took. Just put some dishes in there and just never got used again.

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had to learn how to cook. And I was, I'm glad you said that. I'm glad teaching. It's, it's a trip. It's a thing that hasn't been around. My mother made me learn how to do everything. But yeah, it's a, I can't wait for your movie to come out.

• 1:31:20Rich Roll?

  It's exciting, man.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:31:22Rich Roll?

  It's exciting. I know like COVID has like pushed it back a little bit.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I want to retape because I got more muscles now. I've been able to work out. I'm framing my body back. I think I was really soft in that. I think my body was soft. I want my body stronger.

• 1:31:39Rich Roll?

  The power that a document like that holds to really shift culture is, is super exciting.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that, and it's where, look, you know, the whole vegan thing, the vegan movement, it's so super whitewashed, you know, it's this like, you know, aspiration of like the well healed. And, you know, that needs to get, that narrative needs to get shifted. And, you know, the fact that you're doing that is.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  But you know what I found out? When, and I'm gonna say it this way, when white folks are vegan and are into natural way of eating, they are more empathetic and they understand slavery. What I mean by that, they don't know it directly, but they don't want the animals enslaved. And they will understand the horrific treatment of animals. And that black folks at one time were submitted to the same level and still considered that it's a better feeling when I'm around vegans than I'm around a flesh eater.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  When I'm around a flesh eater, you know, they still think, well, I can take my gun and go shoot a deer and then I'm cool. And I go, why don't you go hunting with it? Everybody got a gun. Let's see.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  They call hunting a sport. It's like, no, a sport is when all parties involved know they're a part of the game.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Like, the animal doesn't have a fucking clue.

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  When you think about it, the overlap between, you know, how I would like to think about myself approaching this situation and my, you know, how I think about veganism, I mean, there's a huge overlap, right? This is about like compassion. It's about, you know, being open to new ideas. It's about, you know, challenging your assumptions and, you know, sort of undoing some of that programming. Like, none of us were born vegan. We lived a certain way and ate a certain way. We made a change. And, you know, I would like to believe that it's made me a more compassionate person.

• 1:33:45Rich Roll?

  But it has been interesting to kind of watch how the vegan community is grappling with what's happening right now. And, you know, some are doing it well and some are not. And that's disheartening to me because this is about compassion. And I would hope that everybody can, you know, think about that a little bit in terms of like how they're communicating and navigating what's happening.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, I think also it's just that, one thing that I saw that was kind of like, kind of weird is that how you'll see vegans compare modern day agriculture, animal agriculture, to slavery. It's like, well, if you speak that way, then why wouldn't you speak up for the descendants of that same slavery? Like, that's the funny thing. Like, they feel like they can't speak up about it. Oh, no, we only speak up for the animals. Like, yeah, but if you are gonna use slavery as your, your speaking note, then you got, you can't be hypocritical about it. Now you have to remember, you know what I'm saying? Like, and I see that so many times across the board. They'll use that so fast. It's like, modern day slavery.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Okay, well, then if it's modern day slavery, you understand how powerful slavery was and how it trickled down and how the effects can still be here. But you don't say anything.

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  That's it. We on Rich Roll now, they gotta say it. He's gonna edit this shit with about 15 minutes of sponsors in the front. And he gonna let us roll.

• 1:35:14Rich Roll?

  Somebody will figure out how to put me on blast.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:18Speaker 02

  But Rich, no bullshit, I do have to go get my daughter.

• 1:35:20Rich Roll?

  I know, and I was gonna wrap this up anyway. I knew it. No, that was my thing. I'm gonna just keep going and tell John to pull the plug. I stopped at all those manners.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  I'm an empty nester. My kids away and it's just me and my wife and my puppy. And I was like, hey, what's your name? She goes, my name is Natasha. I've been married to you for 29 years. I was, oh, I was wondering who this redhead was in the house.

• 1:35:45Rich Roll?

  Um, cool, man. Well, thank you.

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it, man. I really do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. I'm trying, man.

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  That's right. I gave it to you.

• 1:35:53Rich Roll?

  All right. Official?

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  Official, all the way from Killer Mike to me to you.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Your membership card is in the mail. It should get here within.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  You know it's gonna be late, though.

• 1:36:01Rich Roll?

  Cause I'm gonna flash that thing.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  You know it's gonna be late, Coach.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  Let's go with the stereotype. It's gonna be late. And it might have a little bit of barbecue sauce on it. We gonna do some stereotype membership.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Oh, wait. So I want to speak about this. This is good. So anybody can do the research. So I was, I found out today that they, when you talk about the trickle down effect of racism and how it's just been in place for so long. So, you know, the ice cream man, you know, the truck when it comes around and has that song playing in the background? So there was a song that that actually came from. And in the lyrics, it was like, niggers love watermelon in the song. So it's a post up right now and they actually, it was recorded for Columbia Records in like 1926 or 36.

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, 21. Really?

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Maybe 21, yeah. So you can find the song and the video that went along with it is like this gray and white cartoon depiction of blackface and these, they showing them being excited about, um...

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  Eating watermelon, excited about being, it's just, so it's like, those little things, they, they turned that, of course, they made it like, instrumental out of it. But that shows you how long shit has just been thrown into black people's face. And they're like, no, get over it. It's like, nah, you don't get over it, like.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Jingle bells, too.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, jingle bells.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, jingle bells, the national anthem. Like, you know, like, and I, we only had to go in detail, just people start Googling the actual lyrics to these songs. And then you see why people get frustrated, it's like, dude, this shit's right in our face. But everybody's like, just get over it, it's okay, it's okay, like, no, it's not okay.

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is gonna be a great year, 2020. How about 1920?

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  It is though.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  Rage in twenties, right? That was, that was the thing, it was, you know, it was the raging twenties, it was like. Roaring twenties. Roaring twenties, roaring twenties, like, so we're to like, the COVID twenties.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:02Speaker 02

  But we gotta come up with this twenties is something, it's something. And I don't know what it is, but every hundred years.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  They said it was vision, I, I honestly think it is the year of vision. I think it's just showing us some things we weren't really looking for. But it's showing us a lot of shit.

• 1:38:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  Like 2020 showed us a lot.

• 1:38:21Speaker 02

  We can do it, we, we can do a lot. You know what I'm saying? It's like, we can do a lot. And I say that, my, my mother passed this year, and then, uh, the day after I buried her, Kobe died. And then that was tremendous, and then we got locked down.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:38:38Speaker 02

  And then the economy happened, uh, crashed. And then, uh, President Trump took over the Fed. And then, uh, what happened? Double lockdown. Hillary is in court, uh, for.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  You know, you know what was crazy about that too, like, I always, uh, he'll tell you, I randomly just hit him up all the time, like, hey, just wanna see if he was all right, just see if he was up. And I don't know, something gave me a feeling, and that's when I, I, I text him. He was cleaning out his mom's apartment at the time. And something just told me to text him, like, I, I, I, half the time, he don't even fucking respond.

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  That's not true, that's not true.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  But he'll hit me back later, though. Like, and, and that, but that's our relationship. Like, he'll hit me like, hey, man, you need to watch this, take care of this, like. And, and a big brother mentor kind of like thing that we got, so. And then when he hit me back about his mom, I'm like, damn, like, I just, but something told me to hit him up, and then, right after that, it's funny, because I was in L.A. I was like, hey, I'm in L.A., I'm letting you know, because I know if I come to L.A. and I don't tell him, even if I don't see him, it's a problem. If I come to L.A. and he found out later that I was in L.A.

• 1:39:45Rich Roll?

  You're gonna know.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  So I was like, hey, I'm in L.A.

• 1:39:47Speaker 02

  He's so lucky I don't chase broads anymore.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so, like, I told him, I told him, like, yo, like, I'm in L.A., he's like, oh, man, I'm doing this. And then, the next day was Kobe, and I was like, shit.

• 1:40:00Rich Roll?

  That's the next day?

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  So I had to hit him back after that. I was like, damn, I just heard about Kobe, man, like, I, I know he was close to Kobe, so I hope you good, man. If you need, I'm like, if you need me, I'm here, but if you, I'm one of those people too, like, I don't, I, I hate hitting up people during, like, bad times, because I already know eight thousand people hitting them up, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  But it's better. It's always good. People need to know this. Hit people up during the tough times, not the good times.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Then when it, when shit is flying, don't hit them and say, I see you ballin', mama. Don't hit them with that, you know, clap from a distance, but when it's tough times, let people know.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's why I told him, I was like, hey, if you need to call me back, I'm here. If not, dude, I totally understand. I'm not one of the people like, well, I called him and they didn't call me back. It's like, no, that's ego, like, let that person deal with the situation how they gotta deal with it.

• 1:40:51Rich Roll?

  Just let them know you're there.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, just let them know, I'm here if you need me, you probably don't need me, but if so, I'm here.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we should re-interview. I'm getting my muscle back.

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Look at that, look at that, look at that, it's coming back, Rich. That baby boy.

• 1:41:03Rich Roll?

  Good life lesson to put a pin in it. We gotta get John out of here, man, he's getting Nancy.

• 1:41:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:07Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:41:08Speaker 02

  Stay vegan.

• 1:41:08Rich Roll?

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  Yes, man. Thank you, man.

• 1:41:10Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Much love to everybody.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  So that happened. What'd you guys think? I'm not quite sure what that was, but it was something, right? It was definitely something. Much love to Mr. Sally and Louis for sharing their truth today. Please check out the show notes on the episode page where I have enumerated a large catalog of resources, articles, books, films, and nonprofits related to today's discussion and current events at large. Check out the trailer for "They're Trying to Kill Us" on my Instagram page or on YouTube. And let these gentlemen know how this one landed for you by doing it on the socials. You can find Sally @JohnSally on Instagram and @TheJohnSally on Twitter.

• 1:42:00Rich Roll?

  And John Lewis is of course @BadassVegan on Instagram and Twitter. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, all the places. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I love that. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. Thanks to everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing the show and creating all the clips. How do you guys like the new studio setup? It's pretty badass. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Davy Greenberg for today's portraits. DK for advertiser relationships.

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  And theme music by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Appreciate you guys. I love you. See you back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode. Until then, be well. Treat your fellow brothers and sisters with gratitude and kindness. Peace. Plants. Love.