ROLL ON: Owning Your Story

Welcome to the second installment of our newly-minted 'ask me anything' themed series, 'Roll On:' -- a twist on my usual format in which I share my thoughts on select topics and answer audience questions. Serving up co-host duties is Adam Skolnick, an activist and veteran journalist perhaps best known as David Goggins' Can't Hurt Me co-author. Adam has written about adventure sports, environmental issues and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, Men’s Health and many others; and he is the author of One Breath, which chronicles the life and death of Nick Mevoli, America's greatest freediver. Today's conversation begins with a few thoughts on the current protests and a review of recent podcast feedback. We also discuss the intersectionality of food insecurity and social justice. And we examine the importance of healing our food deserts -- a featured theme in next week's episode with filmmaker John Lewis and NBA legend John Salley. The podcast then pivots to answer five relatively philosophical questions submitted by audience members on our Facebook Group page: How do we move past the stories that hold us back? When do you remain open and when do you stand your ground? How do you deal with imposter syndrome? How do you deal with conflict? And How do you discern truth from fiction in the era of fake news? It's about reclaiming your truth. Breaking down negative feedback loops. And crafting a gentler, more objectively honest narrative about who you are and what you're capable of. The visually inclined can watch our conversation on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This series (and recent episodes) is an experiment in venturing out of my comfort zone. An effort to grow. And a commitment to evolve the show. I appreciate you taking the leap with me. I hope you find the content valuable -- and in service to forging a stronger RRP community. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Today, we're back with a second edition of our newly minted Ask Me Anything series, which we're calling Roll On, at least for the time being, which is essentially a twist on my usual format, in which I share my thoughts on select topics and answer audience questions. But first, before we get into it...

• 1:44Rich Roll?

  Okay, so just to quickly recap, in order to be a little bit more responsive to contemporary events, and also in an effort to connect with all of you guys a little bit more substantively, I've decided to experiment a bit with the show by way of this new AMA-themed format. And the current thinking is, we're going to be publishing this type of show twice a month, every other Thursday. To help guide this discussion and my thoughts, my friend Adam Skolnick, an activist, a veteran journalist, an author, and somebody who's just a great conversationalist, joins me in the co-host seat. Today, we begin with the current state of affairs on the protests and some feedback

• 2:27Rich Roll?

  on recent podcast episodes. We also discuss the intersectionality of food insecurity and social justice, and how healing our food deserts is an act of anti-racism. I should also point out that we mentioned a new documentary in the works on these subjects entitled, "They're Trying to Kill Us." It's from my friend John Lewis, who joins the podcast next week, as a matter of fact, as well as Keegan Coon, who's the co-director behind Cowspiracy and What the Health. And the trailer for this upcoming film, which is quite powerful, just went public today, and it's viewable on my Instagram, so I encourage all of you guys to check it out. In the second part of the podcast, I answer some relatively philosophical

• 3:11Rich Roll?

  audience questions on the subjects of moving past the stories that hold us back, when to remain open-minded and when to stand your ground, how to deal with imposter syndrome, how to deal with conflict, and lastly, how to decipher truth from fiction in the era of fake news. I appreciate all of you guys for tuning in. I hope you find today's discussion helpful, so let's do it.

• 3:45Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. We're back with another Ask Me Anything. I think we're calling this series Roll On. Yes. Is that right, Adam? Roll On. I'm still recalling it. Episode two of Roll On. I'm back with my buddy Adam, Adam Skolnik, writer, journalist, activist, author, co-author of Can't Hurt Me, the epic David Goggins memoir, probably the most successful independently published memoir ever.

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be, right?

• 4:17Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, who knows? I don't, I don't really know if there, if there's a way to quantify that, but it's, uh, I mean, Goggins is, is, those books have been selling really well.

• 4:28Rich Roll?

  It's still selling like crazy, isn't it?

• 4:30Adam Skolnick?

  It is, it is, it's still doing well. It's been like top 20 on the Amazon charts for a year and a half now.

• 4:37Rich Roll?

  That's insane.

• 4:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 4:39Rich Roll?

  What a crazy ride that's been for you.

• 4:43Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, for, I most, yes, it's been crazy. It's been, it's, uh, you know, I, when I first started working with David and the opportunity arose, I kind of figured it would be a great way to help some people, but I don't think you could ever have imagined. I mean, I didn't imagine.

• 5:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Adam Skolnick?

  It would be to this level and to have him self-publish and do it all the way he wanted to do it on his terms. Um, and to, to reach this level is, it's gotta be close to unprecedented if it's not unprecedented.

• 5:13Rich Roll?

  Is he and you working on a new book?

• 5:17Adam Skolnick?

  Um, not at the moment, no. I mean, uh, he, yeah, he is, he is, he's, he is working on stuff.

• 5:25Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 5:26Adam Skolnick?

  But, uh, we'll see how it all manifests. I mean, he's always working on stuff, so.

• 5:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:31Adam Skolnick?

  He's always coming up. Well, he, the post he just put out, uh, was amazing. I don't know if you saw it.

• 5:37Rich Roll?

  I haven't seen the latest one, but they're super inspirational.

• 5:39Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this one is so phenomenal.

• 5:42Rich Roll?

  Views too. He follows nobody and what does he have, like 2 million people now on Instagram?

• 5:48Adam Skolnick?

  Maybe, maybe more. I can't remember what, what it is now.

• 5:51Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable. And for the two or three people listening or watching who are not familiar with that book, definitely pick it up. And I would highly suggest the audiobook, which Adam reads. And then after every chapter, you guys do kind of an informal podcast breakdown.

• 6:08Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 6:08Rich Roll?

  Version of that chapter where you and David interact.

• 6:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And that was, you know, that was all David's idea, invited me to read it. And then, um, but that really came out of the collaboration. You know, I was lucky because, uh, For me, I had like, it was basically David Goggins on Broadway, like one man's show for three months where I would just talk to him and he would just go off on these incredible, I mean, he's such a master of his own story.

• 6:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 6:34Adam Skolnick?

  And the first time I ever heard of him was on your podcast and, and he did that on that and he's, that's why he's such a great podcast guest, because he just goes.

• 6:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 6:42Adam Skolnick?

  And so I got a chance to listen to that and then, and, and so over the course of that, several months that we were working together, it became clear to him that it was a great way of doing it would be to, for me to read it and then talk about it together. And so we were able to drill down deeper into the stories that people hadn't heard before. So it ends up being kind of a companion piece to the print book.

• 7:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 7:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Rich Roll?

  Well, it's incredibly impactful, that book.

• 7:06Adam Skolnick?

  Thanks.

• 7:06Rich Roll?

  So, congrats on that.

• 7:08Adam Skolnick?

  Thank you.

• 7:09Rich Roll?

  For those that are new or missed our first edition of Roll On, it's weird to call it that, what we're gonna do here, the idea is Adam and I are gonna have a loose discussion, kind of oriented around, I don't know, just whatever's top of mind, and then drill down into listener questions. So we created a little bit of an outline today and we've got some questions that we're gonna be answering. And the idea is that we're gonna make this a consistent series on the show, probably every, every other Thursday. So the way that we've traditionally published is the long form interviews go up every Monday

• 7:50Rich Roll?

  and then every other Thursday, I've been putting up episodes. And the idea behind those midweek episodes was to explore opportunities to do something a little bit different, hence the Guru Multiverse series and the Coach's Corner. And I think this is gonna find its place, you know, in that kind of sphere. So that's the idea. Maybe we can start with a little bit of feedback from our first episode, which was interesting. I think it was overwhelmingly positively received, although there was a little bit of criticism oriented around the fact that the first conversation that I've had on the show regarding the protests, civil

• 8:34Rich Roll?

  rights and Black Lives Matter, was between me and, and, you know, my, my, my white Jewish friend.

• 8:43Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 8:44Adam Skolnick?

  Interesting casting choice.

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  Right, like I took some heat for that, understandably so. And at the time, my thinking was, well, I've got all these other, you know, episodes chambered, long-form conversations with, with black Americans, African Americans, people of color, and those are going to be coming, but I think I probably should have put one of those up before ours to contextualize our conversation. My thinking was, well, this is a midweek episode. Everybody knows those are a little bit different. I don't think anybody cares about that.

• 9:15Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  So, to all of you who might have been harboring that, that feedback or that notion, I understand where you're coming from.

• 9:24Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, and, and that's okay. It's okay to take that kind of heat. You know, there's, I think you were getting some heat from people who are not coming from a good place, or from a, or even from a legitimate gripe place.

• 9:38Rich Roll?

  I'm okay with that.

• 9:39Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And, but it's even okay to get the good, this kind of criticism. I mean, this is, this is the lesson, right? We need to be open and listening to our friends that, when they have legitimate grievances. I mean, this is, this is what we've been talking about.

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  This is the process, right? I mean, podcasting is very much an experiment in thinking out loud in real time, so I'm not going to always get it right. You know, I'm endeavoring to, and I'm attempting to learn and, you know, expand my horizons and get out of my comfort zone to grapple with these really important and difficult issues, but that doesn't mean that, you know, I'm always going to say the right thing, you know?

• 10:21Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 10:22Rich Roll?

  So, I'm aware of that, and I'm willing to take that risk because this is so important. So, in many ways, this is a maturation of the show, a stepping into something that's a little bit, you know, askew from the typical programming, but I can't imagine not doing this. I mean, what is the point of having a platform if you're not going to speak to the matters that are of most urgency and importance to our culture right now?

• 10:47Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I think, and I mean, isn't that the point of this new endeavor, roll on, is to be able to respond not only to what's happening around us in real time, but also to respond to comments about the show, just be able to respond to your listeners.

• 11:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Adam Skolnick?

  And to address their concerns, your concerns, in a kind of formalized way.

• 11:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, 100%. And to do that, we've had to shift our workflow a little bit. Historically, the program has been set up where I record these conversations and they may not come out for four to eight weeks.

• 11:20Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 11:20Rich Roll?

  Which is fine when you're talking about health and fitness and nutrition, which tend to be relatively evergreen subjects. But right now, that doesn't work anymore. At least, it doesn't work to the extent that I want to talk about what's actually going on. So we've moved things around a little bit to try to be more nimble. It's not a daily show, and it's not a news program, but I do want to be able to be more contemporaneous with current events and to be able to be more connected to the audience and responsive to their direct questions to me and to be able to have an opportunity to share my thoughts on matters of interest to them.

• 11:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, perfect. You had some comments on sprouting on the Facebook group, didn't you?

• 12:04Rich Roll?

  That's right. So for those who don't know, we started a Facebook group for the podcast. I think it's Facebook Groups, Rich Roll Podcast, or Rich Roll Podcast. I'll put a link up into the show notes to it. And it's been a really cool community. The idea there was to just create a place for people to discuss the show and their episodes, like-minded people to communicate with each other. Less about me being involved in it. I want it to be its own thing, independent of me. But I post there occasionally and I check in when I can. And in the wake of the sprouting conversation with Doug Evans, the entire feed, not the entire feed, but a lot of the posts are people sharing their sprouting experiences, which has been really cool. I shared it with Doug the other day. He was like delighted.

• 12:45Adam Skolnick?

  Fantastic.

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  To see that. And I've been doing that myself. I ordered, after having Doug on the show, I ordered a bunch of sprouting stuff online. I got a bunch of containers and some seeds. I think Sprout Man is where I got everything. That's what Doug suggested is the best site to get this stuff. And I got a rack up in our kitchen, and I've got Maybe seven canisters going right now.

• 13:09Adam Skolnick?

  Really?

• 13:10Rich Roll?

  Different phases.

• 13:10Adam Skolnick?

  Really?

• 13:11Rich Roll?

  And it's been really cool.

• 13:13Adam Skolnick?

  What do you got?

• 13:13Rich Roll?

  My, well, I just got all the, it took a long time with COVID to get everything in the mail. But now I think I'm on day three of my first like harvest. So these are about done and ready to eat. None of them have spoiled yet. And I got another rack below that I just started last night.

• 13:29Adam Skolnick?

  So like broccoli?

• 13:30Rich Roll?

  So I want to have like a rotation.

• 13:31Adam Skolnick?

  Like different, different ones?

• 13:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, bro, I've got broccoli, broccoli sprouts, lentil, pea. Doug gave me a mixture that's like a protein mixture that was like chickpeas and a bunch of different stuff in it.

• 13:42Adam Skolnick?

  Fantastic.

• 13:43Rich Roll?

  Um, I got a couple of others I can't remember, but it's super simple and it really doesn't cost anything. These, these jars cost almost nothing. I mean, you could do it with mason jars if you want, with cheesecloth on top of them. Um, and I just have a simple like dish drying rack where you angle them at a 45 degree angle. And it's right next to the sink. So every time I go into the kitchen, I'm reminded, you know, two or three times a day to just rinse them out. And it's been fun, man. I, it's so easy and it like, literally the seeds cost, you know, like pennies.

• 14:14Adam Skolnick?

  Did you have to like lease a corner of Julie's kitchen to get this, to get this approved? Or did she just immediately approve it?

• 14:21Rich Roll?

  Normally she's very proprietary about her workspace in the kitchen, but I think she was so excited that I took an interest in something culinary. Like this is the great like myth about our marriage and our work together. Uh, you know, we have all these cookbooks and all of that, but like Julie is the chef. Like I'm, I just sit there and, you know, wash the dishes afterwards.

• 14:43Adam Skolnick?

  You approve enthusiastically.

• 14:45Rich Roll?

  I'm not the culinary genius, you know what I mean? So the fact that I was like, I want to do this, she's like, oh, wow, that's cool. She's all excited.

• 14:51Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, yeah, I bet.

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  Anyway, my kids are like, what is that?

• 14:56Rich Roll?

  There's also, yeah, my kids are all on board with it.

• 14:58Adam Skolnick?

  But you've been fueling off salads like as a main thing for a long time, right? Like, like. Like, in the middle of the day, I've had a few lunches with you and it's always been like a big salad for you.

• 15:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, typically, but I'm not growing that produce in my yard.

• 15:12Adam Skolnick?

  No, no, no.

• 15:13Rich Roll?

  So, this is a new thing for me.

• 15:16Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:16Rich Roll?

  It's very exciting.

• 15:17Adam Skolnick?

  Very cool. I love it.

• 15:18Rich Roll?

  So, what else do we want to talk about? We want to talk about what happened in Westlake?

• 15:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I think you should talk about that. I mean, you sent me this thing this morning.

• 15:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so, just today, news broke about an incident in my backyard. We're recording in Thousand Oaks right now. And in this neighborhood, three individuals got busted for defacing a Black Lives Matter sign, one of whom worked for the sheriff, the other worked for the DA, and I think the other one was a private citizen, but...

• 15:52Adam Skolnick?

  And the DA guy was an assistant investigator, I think, with the DA.

• 15:56Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah. I mean, the DA's office and the sheriff's office did respond swiftly to put these guys on leave, but they're on paid leave pending an investigation.

• 16:07Adam Skolnick?

  And they were arrested, right?

• 16:08Rich Roll?

  They were, I believe they were arrested.

• 16:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Misdemeanor citations.

• 16:13Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 16:14Rich Roll?

  And I guess the person who put the sign up, which is right on Westlake Boulevard, which is a heavily trafficked road out here, his sign had been defaced a number of times. So, he put up one of those Ring cameras and recorded the whole thing on video.

• 16:27Adam Skolnick?

  Fantastic.

• 16:28Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, man, you know, this stuff is still going on. I think it speaks to the, you know, when people say there is no problem, like, there is a problem. You know, the fact that things like this are happening are indicia that there is, you know, an underbelly, a dark underbelly of racist attitudes and behavior. And this has made manifest in this particular instance. And, you know, what motivates that? Is it, you know, some kind of repressed white rage? Is it a sense of disenfranchisement? Is it just...

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  Patent overt racism, like I don't know these individuals. I don't know what motivated them to do that. But the fact that somebody could do that in this moment in 2020 is upsetting in my own community.

• 17:22Adam Skolnick?

  Is it resentment because they feel like there's now people hate cops because of Black Lives Matter or something?

• 17:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, maybe. I mean, one of these guys was worked in the DA's office, not the police department.

• 17:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, there's sheriff.

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  So, right.

• 17:38Adam Skolnick?

  You know what? I think two things. One, it's further evidence of prejudice embedded within law enforcement, which has been an accusation for a long time from people of color and especially black Americans. And it has been given very little notice until now. You know, we hear it, but it hasn't hasn't sparked widespread protest in our lifetime until now. And and this is evidence of it. This is evidence in a place in Thousand Oaks in Westlake. I mean, this is

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  Which is, for people that don't know, an upscale suburban enclave. That's predominantly white.

• 18:16Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's and so and and just the expression Black Lives Matter has driven these people to do this, one of whom is 60 years old.

• 18:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:25Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, he's a 60 year old man going out of his way to deface something. A 60 year old man.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's similar to the guy in DC on the bike.

• 18:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  Who was trying to rip the flyers out of the little girl's hand.

• 18:39Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, right.

• 18:39Rich Roll?

  Remember that guy?

• 18:40Adam Skolnick?

  And or

• 18:41Rich Roll?

  That seems like a lifetime ago.

• 18:42Adam Skolnick?

  It's like someone sent me something this morning of a someone in their 60s like that trying to get into a grocery store without a mask and trying to barge past somebody. Did you see that one? And he falls and he's like so furious, like the fury of the 60 year old white man. I mean, The only thing I can think of, this is a big problem that we have in this country. It's that we have, we have a country of adult children.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:06Adam Skolnick?

  That have just not figured out how to grow up.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 19:09Adam Skolnick?

  And be grownups.

• 19:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:10Adam Skolnick?

  Like, like, we wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior from children. You know, like, if, if it was a 13-year-old going out and vandalizing anything, it would be a problem in that family.

• 19:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:20Adam Skolnick?

  If it was like a 13-year-old that wouldn't, wouldn't listen to the security guard at a grocery store, that 13-year-old would be reprimanded by his mom or his father right then and there.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  Right. When you think about what is going on in the mind of a 60-year-old man that he's gonna pull his car over, driving down Westlake Boulevard, get out and, and slash a Black Lives Matter sign.

• 19:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, a 60-year-old man.

• 19:43Rich Roll?

  The immaturity and the wrongheadedness of that is unbelievable. And it dovetails perfectly with what we were, what we were talking about earlier. Both of us had started listening to Greta Thunberg's.

• 19:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 19:56Rich Roll?

  Like, sort of audiobook, I guess.

• 19:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 19:58Rich Roll?

  Manifesto that she just released on Spotify.

• 20:01Adam Skolnick?

  Incredible.

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  I was listening to it on the drive in and she just pulls no punches, man. You know what I mean? And, and she speaks to this childishness of the adults, right? She talks about being in the congressional dining hall in Washington DC, where she's gonna have lunch with all these congressmen. And she's looking around at all the fast food outlets and it's Dunkin' Donuts and it's this and it's that.

• 20:27Adam Skolnick?

  Baskin Robbins.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  And she's like, I see these grown men and they're drinking their pink milkshakes and eating candy. And she's like, who are the adults?

• 20:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yes. And, and these are the people creating policy. And, and it's like, but there's so many places we can go with that. One is like, she, her tone on the audiobook is great. Like, like, it's very clear she thinks we're all a bunch of idiots.

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:50Adam Skolnick?

  Which we probably are.

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  Well, she has a clarity because she's not American.

• 20:55Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 20:55Rich Roll?

  So she comes to America and she sees it through a different lens. Like there's she there's a distance between, you know, like, because we're so we can't see the forest for the trees because we live here. She doesn't have that problem. And when she's talking about her road trip across America, it's very de Tocqueville.

• 21:15Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:15Rich Roll?

  She's got this, you know, laser view on all the problems when she's driving through the truck stops and she's seeing the oil refineries and the empty parking lots and the 16 lane highways and all of that. And her ability to kind of articulate the problematic nature of all of this from a perspective of like, how did we get here? Like, we're not even beginning to address like all of these problems.

• 21:40Adam Skolnick?

  You know, she described she was she was paraphrasing, like making up fake slogans for the states because the license plate had states and it was North Carolina where even the salad bars don't have vegetarian options.

• 21:54Rich Roll?

  Right. I know. I know.

• 21:57Adam Skolnick?

  No offense, North Carolina. I love North Carolina. But but that but that was pretty funny. De Tocqueville, you got to define De Tocqueville for people that maybe don't know who he was.

• 22:07Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, De Tocqueville wrote this book, what's it called? On America?

• 22:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I forget. It was like early 19th century, visiting America.

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  So a French guy comes to America. It's on democracy, maybe?

• 22:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  And he comes to America and he because he's not American, he has this crystal clear, objective perspective on the democratic experiment.

• 22:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And help spread that to France, right? Spread enthusiasm across Europe for it.

• 22:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:31Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so we'll link that up in the show notes. Meanwhile, a town in Siberia above the Arctic Circle just exceeded 100 degrees Fahrenheit.

• 22:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Rich Roll?

  Yesterday or today?

• 22:44Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, that's I was I stopped for gas on the way here and there's a Starbucks connected to the gas station or like on the same plot. And I'm listening to Greta and I'm thinking, well, she's she is she is pissed off because because she's she's appalled that so few people are aware of this emergency that's going on and the policymakers. Like she has it out for the media, the policymakers, basically everybody. And

• 23:11Adam Skolnick?

  And I'm sitting there and as I'm pumping my gas, I'm thinking, pumping gas into my car and watching 20 cars get in line for Starbucks drinks, probably in disposable cups, with their engines running and the air conditioning on because it's a warm day here in Southern California in the valley. And she's right to be pissed off, you know, like she, she is on top of, you know, that's what is interesting. And the tone works in this, in this Spotify project, whatever it is, because first of all, the writing is great. She reads it fantastic. It's riveting.

• 23:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:43Adam Skolnick?

  And the tone just provides more urgency. I, I, I love it. I think it's incredible. And she's right on, she's still right on, and we still haven't quite woken up to it. And like you said, like today, nobody, I mean, do people, are people aware of there's 100 degree days in Siberia?

• 23:58Rich Roll?

  Well, CNN's covering it. It's, they're, they're reporting on it. The impact of that, you know, who knows?

• 24:03Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 24:04Rich Roll?

  You know, it's, it's kind of an astounding figure though, 100 degrees Fahrenheit.

• 24:08Adam Skolnick?

  And they're saying it's going to be above in Canada too, right? Above the Arctic Circle in Canada is next. That heat wave is going to continue.

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Usually it's 60 degrees in June.

• 24:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yes, I think 68 or something like that.

• 24:19Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  Um, one of the other things Greta was talking about was she visited a forest and was talking with some rangers there. I can't remember exactly who, and there's been a proliferation of this beetle that has basically rendered 50% of the trees, uh, you know, destined to die, which is like this horrific thing that's happening because typically the winters are so cold and this, I think it was in Canada, that this beetle perishes in the winter months, but because it's warmer now, the beetle is able to survive the winter and continues to eat these trees. And so it's these, these loops that, that start to occur, like this domino effect that illustrates the tipping point that we're facing right now.

• 25:01Adam Skolnick?

  It's feedback loop after feedback loop. And then when those change, everything changes and the system changes. And what happens when these systems break down and change? Sometimes is things like viruses leak into the human food chain. And, and, and like, so there's a, it, it all is connected. We can't, it's all intersectional. That's what we're learning with race in America. That's what we're learning with science. It's all interconnected and.

• 25:29Adam Skolnick?

  Everything becomes a feedback loop.

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 25:32Adam Skolnick?

  Because we are like, we were talking about earlier, we are like an organism on the planet. Functioning. And so we're going to be, everything comes back on you.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  And yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good place to pivot into food insecurity and food injustice. Right?

• 25:49Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Rich Roll?

  That's another, you know, kind of black mark on our culture right now, where we have these pockets all across America that are deprived of healthy food and healthy options that are also economically depressed. And that creates its own feedback loop that produces, you know, a generation of people who are improperly nourished, they're more susceptible to chronic lifestyle illnesses, their brains don't develop as well, their IQ numbers go down, there's all kinds of statistics on this. And this perpetuates without any kind of, you know, interference on our part at a system level to redress this.

• 26:26Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, should we, should I define food deserts?

• 26:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 26:31Adam Skolnick?

  I went on to the Food Empowerment Project's website, which is a great website, a great resource for this. And so what I'm reading now comes from them. Food deserts can be described as geographic areas where residents' access to affordable, healthy food options, especially fruits and vegetables, is restricted or non-existent, non-existent due to the absence of grocery stores within a convenient traveling distance. So there's a report by Congress and the US Department of Agriculture that 2.3 million people, 2.2% of all US households, live more than a mile away from a supermarket and do not own a car. Now, that is skewed because supermarkets are defined very narrowly in these reports, and they can include convenience stores, bodegas, right?

• 27:13Rich Roll?

  Liquor stores.

• 27:14Adam Skolnick?

  Exactly, that have like a spare banana that isn't even priced until the person goes there, and it can be a different price on a given day, from a given employee. You know, they're mostly, most commonly found, like you said, in black and brown communities, low-income areas. And so their, their choices are limited. And it's also more expensive to get, you know, it's, it's known that fruits and vegetables somehow are more expensive than high fatty processed foods. And so when you're already low income, your choices, you know, so for a lot of people wellness is a choice. For some people, those choices are made for you.

• 27:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's a huge problem. I had, uh, my friend John Lewis and John Sally on the podcast last week. I'm putting that episode up next. That'll be up on Monday. And one of the things that we talked about in that, in that conversation is this very subject. And those guys in, well, mainly John, John Lewis, I think John Sally's on board as a consulting producer. But John Lewis, AKA The Badass Vegan, as he's known on Instagram, partnered with Keegan Coon, who's the, the co-director behind What the Health and Cowspiracy. And they're hard at work on this new documentary that's now, uh, that they just retitled it. It's called, They're Trying to Kill Us.

• 28:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 28:34Rich Roll?

  And they showed me the trailer, which should be going public this week. It might even be today. I'm not sure. If it, if it's public by the time this podcast goes up, I'll link it up in the show notes. But the trailer is so powerful. And it basically takes a look at the disproportionate impact of food injustice on, um, communities of color across the country and the downstream impact of that on, on repressing their ability to, um, improve their lives. And it's through the lens of like hip hop and music with all kinds of interesting interviews with prominent people from that community. And the, the trailer is like insane.

• 29:19Rich Roll?

  I sent it to you, right?

• 29:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. It's very hot. I mean, it's, I can't wait for this movie.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  I wish the movie was coming out right now because it would, it would just explode.

• 29:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  It's so timely.

• 29:28Adam Skolnick?

  It's, it's going to explode because whenever, whenever it is, because people are ready for these kinds of, this kinds of information. You know, I think the- There's more and more plant-based people in the African-American and people of color community. I think that's growing. Athletes are the, were kind of the first people in on it, right? And seeing performance, and now it's just flourishing as its own kind of resistance, its own like personal choice, the way to combat climate change. You know, it's often, I think you've said it many times, it's the most profound thing you can probably do to help the planet right now on an individual level.

• 30:04Rich Roll?

  Well, it's the one thing that you could do every single day, three times a day. Every time you reach for food, you're making a choice that has that kind of downstream impact.

• 30:14Adam Skolnick?

  Has a big impact. I mean, just a couple of statistics. Between 1989 and 2005, so a little bit ago, the prices of fruits and vegetables went up 75%. In that same period, processed, high fatty foods, sugary foods, the cost went down 26%. So sometimes these choices are made for you, right? Like we were saying. And so then-

• 30:36Rich Roll?

  That speaks to the systemic nature of all of this.

• 30:38Adam Skolnick?

  The systemic nature. And so then when you get, when those are the options for you in order to make ends meet, you drift towards those foods. It seems like it's cheaper, but later you have type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, other diet-related conditions that will impact your ability to make a living and put you in the hospital or worse.

• 30:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, when you're working two or more jobs, you've got some kids at home, maybe you're a single parent, you don't have time to cook, the healthy options are not geographically available, they're perhaps priced out of your range anyway. What are you gonna do? You're gonna go to the drive-thru, or you're gonna hit up the bodega, you're gonna eat the processed stuff. And, you know, that's the reality for millions of Americans right now.

• 31:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, two, over 2 million.

• 31:24Rich Roll?

  And, you know, Greta talks about this also in her book, like the intersection of this with the climate conversation. She talks about-

• 31:33Rich Roll?

  The fact that you can't talk about climate justice without addressing social justice, like these are systems that are inherently interlinked.

• 31:41Adam Skolnick?

  They are, and I think it comes back to something, you know, a couple of things. I think you took some heat for even getting into politics now because for a long time, like dealing with evergreen issues, it's not like you avoided political conversations. You like all sorts of interesting intellectual discussions, but taking on a political issue in real time kind of adds potency to it.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Adam Skolnick?

  And so, you know, but there is a connection between politics and lifestyle choices, right? I mean, isn't there? And, and what's the point of it? Like, why do we make these lifestyle choices? Do we make them because they make us feel better? Do we make them because they make us better in all sorts of other ways? Like, not just feel better, but stronger, live longer, think more clearly? Is it about our own enlightenment? Or is there, should it be linked to a more, a better way of living in a communal level?

• 32:36Rich Roll?

  I think it should be. I think people act out of self-interest.

• 32:40Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Rich Roll?

  Right? So, the entry ramp for anybody is going to be, how do I feel better? How do I make sure that I don't get one of these diseases? How do I keep a trim waistline? How do I not die of a heart attack like my father, or my mother, or my grandfather? Those are the things I think that motivate people the most. Probably the weight loss thing is the, you know, that's the thing that, you know, snags people initially.

• 33:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 33:03Rich Roll?

  Because talking about long-term gains, like, hey, you know, in 25 years, you're not going to get diabetes and have your foot amputated, or you're not going to suffer a stroke. Like, it's difficult to motivate people based on things that might or might not happen in the future.

• 33:21Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  You know, if they're overweight, then you can get an immediate result by cleaning up their diet. But even trying to appeal to the idea that they'll have more energy, that's difficult.

• 33:32Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 33:32Rich Roll?

  So then to layer on top of that, like, hey, this is the right thing to do for society. I think there's a select... Portion of the population that will be motivated by that, but I don't know that that's going to capture the fascination of the average individual. And I think that's why this is such a difficult thing, especially when the processed food like hits all the pleasure centers in your brain when you eat it. And it does create this addictive response, and it's difficult to change habits. And, you know, it's hard to change, and I'm sympathetic to that.

• 34:05Adam Skolnick?

  It's hard to change on this level and on the bigger issues in America right now.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  Right. So if you can't get somebody to do it for themselves, how are you going to convince them that they should do it for the planet?

• 34:16Adam Skolnick?

  And can you social engineer your way out of these problems? You know, like, it's almost like from a one level, it looks like these, there's a deliberate attempt to get people to eat shitty food. But a lot of these things are, it looks that way, but there're probably a million decisions that went into this, profiteering type decisions.

• 34:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not like a Mr. Burns sitting atop, you know, on some throne somewhere, making these nefarious decisions to impact people in an equitable way. It's just the tectonic plates of culture shift in a certain way to create, in business, to create these from, you know, lobbying, you know, lobbying efforts on behalf of these conglomerated food companies and the farm subsidies and the way that campaign finance works. Like, all of these things contribute to a system that produces this kind of unhealthy result and inequity. And the only way forward is twofold. We have to deconstruct these systems. But we also, and this speaks to what, what Dan Buettner talks about with the blue zones, we have to

• 35:19Rich Roll?

  create environments that are conducive to the healthy choice. If we're relying on people to make their own individual decisions when they're faced with a panoply of choices, It's not, they're not, they're not gonna, you know, that's, that's not the way forward. They're not gonna make the right choice every time. So we have to create in environments where the healthy choice is the convenient, affordable, and, you know, easy to consume option, right? From bike paths to, you know, healthy food that is within arm's reach and price effective based on the community. And that has to happen at the, that has to happen at the local government level and at the federal level, at the state level, at every level.

• 36:03Adam Skolnick?

  Like how we're, what we're subsidizing? Cause you're, you're referring to subsidies of, I'm sure, corn and soy, but mostly corn, which becomes high fructose corn syrup, right? And that ends up in products all over the place.

• 36:13Rich Roll?

  Makes it super cheap.

• 36:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 36:15Rich Roll?

  Um, I had a guy very, very early on on the podcast, he'd be good to bring back on, this guy David Simon, and he wrote a book called Meatonomics that basically looks at the subsidy structure in the animal agriculture industry. And basically, the, the, the truth is, if you stripped away all the subsidies, like the average Big Mac would cost like, you know, I don't know, I can't remember the figure, but it was like a lot of money, right? It was way more, what does it cost now? Two bucks or something like that? It would be like nine dollars or something. That alone would shift the landscape tremendously.

• 36:50Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, if you, if you stop subsidizing the, the food the cows eat and the cows themselves, it would be too expensive to eat so much beef, right?

• 36:59Rich Roll?

  You would be able to, yeah, fast food, the whole, the whole ecosystem of fast food would shift as a result of that.

• 37:05Adam Skolnick?

  Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I, I did a story for Sierra Magazine in Pork Country in eastern North Carolina, and there, what has happened is that big conglomerates like Smithfield Foods, which is now owned by a Chinese kind of, um, Multinational.

• 37:28Adam Skolnick?

  And most of that pork that's grown in eastern North Carolina ends up going to China. A lot of it does. And so what's happened is that the the individual farmer that used to own the pigs and sell them to the slaughterhouse or the big company that distributed it, they don't own them anymore. They basically are paid a fee to grow the pig.

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:49Adam Skolnick?

  And that fee doesn't cost enough to treat the sewage. So the sewage ends up in these ponds and then it ends up getting flooded into rivers. Sometimes they have to spray the.

• 38:02Rich Roll?

  They spray it.

• 38:02Adam Skolnick?

  Spray it all over.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  And it rains down on the local community, which tends to be, you know, a relatively impoverished, you know, community.

• 38:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. And so, but the kicker on that is that the actual pork grower, the people that own those farms, very few of them make any money.

• 38:20Rich Roll?

  No, I know.

• 38:21Adam Skolnick?

  So it ends up being, it doesn't work for anybody, really.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  They're essentially a modern day sharecropper.

• 38:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 38:27Rich Roll?

  And they have to procure so much debt to create these farms and they become servants to that debt and they can never transcend it.

• 38:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 38:37Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I've had many guests on the show to talk about that. I mean, that's another, that's another instance or example of the systemic nature of this. You have these conglomerated animal agriculture companies that prey on these farmers to, you know, basically convince them to produce at a higher level. They need to like, they'll give them these loans and they're able to build these, you know, industrial CAFOs.

• 39:04Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 39:05Rich Roll?

  But they're always just shy of kind of being able to be profitable beyond servicing the debt.

• 39:10Adam Skolnick?

  Right. Some people can make it work because they maybe own multiple CAFOs and so they make it work that way. The small margin becomes something over, you know, if you can scatter it over six different farms they bought. But most people suffer, man. Most people can't make a living.

• 39:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I'm compassionate to those farmers.

• 39:28Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  Who are trying to continue the legacy of prior generations and this beautiful tradition of farming that is part and parcel of Americana.

• 39:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, they grew up with it.

• 39:38Rich Roll?

  This is a very different situation.

• 39:40Adam Skolnick?

  Right, and, you know, it's funny, when I was in eastern North Carolina, this was in September or October 2016, there was a Trump rally announced. Did I ever tell you about this?

• 39:51Rich Roll?

  No, I don't think so.

• 39:52Adam Skolnick?

  And in the middle of eastern North Carolina, pork country, they dropped in, like, two days' notice, he staged a rally, and they canceled the schools so that everyone could go to this thing. And I was there with some community activists and environment and the Riverkeeper, and we all heard this, and all the local people told me they'd never heard of school being canceled for any reason, other than like a weather reason. Schools were canceled so that people could go to this Trump rally. I went to this Trump rally. But you see this division that is sown, because the people who are trying to keep their lifestyle

• 40:30Adam Skolnick?

  going are victim to the friends of Trump, but they are worshiping Trump, or grateful for Trump.

• 40:39Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the disconnect, right? The idea that this administration cares about them and their problem, when in fact, everything that it's doing is at odds with their personal self-interest.

• 40:53Adam Skolnick?

  And that's what the powerful have been using race to perpetuate that lie for hundreds of years. Yeah, so bringing back to that again, which is good, because you can't escape it. I mean, that's all, that's the air we breathe right now.

• 41:10Rich Roll?

  Well, let's, why don't we pivot into some listener email questions?

• 41:23Adam Skolnick?

  Let's do it. So you want me to fire them off?

• 41:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, why not?

• 41:27Adam Skolnick?

  Okay, cool. Well, this is good, because it kind of plays right in. "How do we move past our stories? We're dealing with a story now we'd like to move past as a culture, but also individually." This one comes from Derek McMillan. "Hi, Rich. In your podcast with James Altucher, you both touched on how we move past our stories, rather than continuing to be identified with who we were, whether it be an addict, criminal, etc." How do you develop a positive relationship with your past without identifying with it in the present and letting it dictate who you will be in the future? Thanks.

• 42:00Rich Roll?

  That's like the ultimate question, right?

• 42:03Adam Skolnick?

  That's, yeah.

• 42:04Rich Roll?

  We all have these stories that we tell ourselves about who we are. You know, mine can be, I'm an alcoholic, or I'm an athlete. Yours could be, I'm a journalist. So those are the labels that we put, you know, there's professional labels, but there's also these more, at times insidious stories that we quietly, privately tell ourselves about who we are and what we're capable of.

• 42:28Adam Skolnick?

  I can't do that thing. I could, I could never do that.

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  You know, yeah, like, yeah, like, well, Goggins can do that, but I can't do that. Cause he's like that and I'm like this.

• 42:38Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 42:38Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 42:39Rich Roll?

  I do it as much as anybody. I've done it historically over my whole life. And I think it's important to understand that these stories are illusion. We fabricate them. It's like our brains wanna make sense of ourselves and our world and our past and our capabilities. It's like this mapping device, right? And it's trying to identify patterns. There was a spiritual teacher that I had many years ago, and he described it like buds on a branch. Like if you take a tree branch and you see the little buds where eventually there'll be new branches, right? And we, if you look at that branch like a timeline of your life, we have a tendency

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  as human beings to identify these certain buds of things that have happened in our past and we weave them together to construct a narrative, right? So it might be, uh, my father abused me, or, you know, I wasn't able to get into college, or, you know, whatever it is, right? Like there are certain instances, like events that occur, and we hone in on those and we create meaning around them. And then we weave them together. But in truth, our life is made up of billions of decisions and events that have occurred over the course of our lifetime. And we're myopic to almost all of it, except for these little buds along the branch, right? And we make this decision.

• 44:04Rich Roll?

  Based on illusion that these things are more meaningful than everything else that's happened to us, and we construct an identity around that. And I think the process of learning from that, but not identifying with it, is one of self-inquiry. I think it's a lifetime journey of deconstructing that. And it begins with mindfulness, because the more that you can be present in your life, the less you are, the less you're shackled to that past, and that past as a predictor of future behavior, right? So, the most tangible tactical advice I can give to someone who's struggling with this is to begin meditating,

• 44:49Rich Roll?

  and to try to learn how to be more present in your life. I think these stories are important to the extent that they can inform a better path forward, but detrimental to the extent that we rely on them as limiters and predictors of future behavior. Your past doesn't dictate your future, but it will if you allow it to. And I think in most people's case, that's what happens. You just say, "Well, because I'm this way and this thing happened to me, that I can only do these things, or I'm not capable of doing these other things." And freedom comes with being in the present and unshackling from that narrative, deconstructing it, like really doing inventory.

• 45:31Adam Skolnick?

  Being in the present, meaning?

• 45:32Rich Roll?

  Well, the more you're present, the more you're, the less reactive you are, and the less prone you are to just repeating some cycle, you know, that's some deep groove that's like in your brain about how you behave.

• 45:47Adam Skolnick?

  Because you're open to what's coming at you versus ready to defend against what's coming at you?

• 45:53Rich Roll?

  You can, you can evaluate your circumstances more objectively, rather than reacting impulsively to them based upon some prior, like, "When this happens, I always do this," right? I'm not even thinking, I just do, "This is how I respond to these situations."

• 46:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 46:11Rich Roll?

  And understanding that that's actually a choice, but in order to really embrace the fact that you have options, you need to be present to create that little buffer of time. Wherein you can reflect a little bit more deeply on what's happening so that the behavior that you choose to then lean into is coming from a more reflective place as opposed to a, you know, like an innate response, right? And I think when you, if you, if you do an inventory of your life, you know, I would, I would suggest people start with, what are those buds on your branch? Like, get out a notebook and write down all of those things that you think form your

• 46:55Rich Roll?

  identity, those, those important events in your life that you think are formative. And then I would challenge you to then find other instances in your life that, that call into question the veracity of whatever truth is that you're hanging your hat on. And I would imagine that most people can find, like, I can't, you know, I'm not, I'm not worthy of being hired for this kind of job because I, I've been fired three times in a row. Well, have you ever had a job where you didn't get fired? Like, try to, try to put truth to that lie in some regard and understand that you have the power to create a new narrative. What you decide to focus on becomes your reality. So if you can free yourself from being overly focused on those buds along that branch

• 47:37Rich Roll?

  and those instances that create this story, you have the power to create a new story for yourself.

• 47:43Adam Skolnick?

  What you decide to focus on becomes your reality.

• 47:46Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:47Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, that's the, that's the headline right there, right?

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:50Adam Skolnick?

  Like, our emotions, sometimes we feel like, you know, there's, there's, right now especially, there's this idea of, I mean, I don't even mean in, in the context of the political situation right now, I just mean in this generation and, and with so many people in therapy or whatever, you hear people saying, well, you know, everyone wants to express their feelings and their feelings become almost sacred, but not every emotion needs to be, needs to be validated.

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:18Adam Skolnick?

  And not every emotion is valid.

• 48:20Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:21Adam Skolnick?

  It's, it's you decide what emotions are valid.

• 48:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And that's not to say that if you've suffered a certain trauma that you should pretend it didn't happen to you.

• 48:29Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 48:30Rich Roll?

  You know, if, if that's the case, that needs to be looked at, like, seek out therapy, like, unpack that, what's behind that? How is it holding you back? And, and, you know, start to develop tools to work through that so that it no longer carries that charge and that power that is inhibiting you.

• 48:47Adam Skolnick?

  What would be an example of that for you that where you had to move past a certain story in your life? Maybe, I mean, sobriety could be one, but maybe endurance, sports. What was it for you that kind of like an example where you consciously moved in a different direction because you changed the story?

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think I can give you two. I mean, one is where I'm still kind of very much in a story and one is where I'm actively moving past a story. And the first is, is, you know, addiction and alcoholism is tricky, right? Because I am an alcoholic and I think there's certain people who will tell you that they're, they've cured themselves of alcoholism or they've transcended it. And it's not for me to judge that person's experience. Maybe they have, and if they have, that's fantastic. But I, I know that I have alcoholism and that I need to treat it. And that treatment involves 12 step and working with other alcoholics,

• 49:47Rich Roll?

  et cetera. I have a whole 12 step program for dealing with this. I will never like be cured of alcoholism, but that doesn't mean that, that, that the fact that I'm an alcoholic needs to define my entire life experience. It's something that I have that I have to deal with. And my first priority as an alcoholic is to, is to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety. Like I'm very, I'm clear on that. But that doesn't mean that I'm like this single issue person.

• 50:16Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 50:17Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, I do know people that are sober, that are sober alcoholics and, and basically their entire life is about, you know, talking about the fact that they have alcoholism. Like alcoholism is, is something that almost killed me and there's a whole story behind that, that I still hold on to. I don't allow it to identify who I am, but it's a very powerful story in the sense that it is a reminder that I, as much as I want to deny or ignore it, that I have a disease that would very much like me dead. And then I have to remain persistent in my recovery to abet that internal urge inside of me that's doing pushups the minute I stop.

• 51:01Rich Roll?

  Treating it. Staying ahead of it. Right, so that is a story that that has truth to it. I don't overly identify with it, but I need to maintain the pertinence of that story in my life in order to be well. And that's why when you go to like an AA meeting, people get up to the podium and they share what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. And the reason that they share what it was like is a reminder to themselves as they're sharing it and to everyone else. Like, this is where I came from. Like, this is why I do all these things now. Because I would very much like to just forget that I did all of those things and pretend it didn't happen. Yeah. And it's important that I'm reminded

• 51:41Rich Roll?

  that that is fundamentally who I was and who I could return to being if I'm not vigilant. So that would be that one example of where I maintain a connection to this story for a healthy reason. Yep. Another example would be this pivot that we're making with the podcast right now. It would be very easy for me to just say, well, I'm this endurance athlete and I'm a vegan and I do a podcast about those issues. We're going to talk about nutrition and how to be like an Ironman triathlete or whatever. And like, stay in your lane, Rich. Trust me, I'm on the receiving end of a lot of stay in your lane comments these days. Which is weird because your lane has always been pretty wide.

• 52:23Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of people who would very much like me to go back to that lane and stay there. And they want the triathlete podcast. And that's a story that's powerful. Like, I could just stay in this place of like, oh, I did five Ironmans on five Hawaiian islands and tell that story again and again and again. And allow that to kind of dictate how I communicate publicly. Yeah. I'm not that interested in that. That was a while ago. Like, I'm in a different place right now where You know, I've grown. I still am an endurance athlete and I love all that stuff. But it's important to evolve, right?

• 53:04Rich Roll?

  And we're trying to evolve the podcast a little bit right now by doing what we're doing right now. And I don't want to allow that story of who I was to dictate what I have to be in the future. That story is powerful and I can leverage it as, as a way of reminding me that I'm capable of putting anything I put my mind to.

• 53:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 53:28Rich Roll?

  Because I've done some hard things. I know that I'm capable of more than that other old story tells me, which is that, you know, you know, I'm not good and I'm in imposter syndrome. I know there's another question about that that we can get into.

• 53:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 53:42Rich Roll?

  So I use those stories for the benefit that they can give me. But I don't try to, I don't allow them to hinder me from growth, if that makes sense.

• 53:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 53:52Rich Roll?

  Do you think that answers this question?

• 53:54Adam Skolnick?

  It totally makes sense. I think it does. You know, the, the idea that we should be focused on not what we did, but where we're going. Not, not where we've been, but where we're going. But the reason I think people love that story also is because, you know, the story of your Rich Roll, the endurance athlete, is because to so many of your listeners, they, they would like to get to the point where they have kind of some sort of physical mastery or get better. And because it's interesting, would you be at the place you are now if you hadn't gone through the crucible of, of, of ultra, which allowed you to see yourself? Like we talk, you talk about meditation.

• 54:35Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know if you meditate daily or not, but comparing that to what you learn about yourself in an ultra, it must be, those are kind of, they're not just buds on the branch. They're kind of.

• 54:47Rich Roll?

  They're formative experiences.

• 54:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, they're like, what do you, like? I'm spacing on the word in India, like a yoga, like where people come, an ashram. They're kind of like the ashram of the mind in a way and body.

• 54:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I've always, and I'm happy to talk about all those things because I want everybody to have their version of that experience that I had for myself because it was so formative. So endurance sports will always remain, you know, a heart place on this show. Like, I love talking to endurance athletes and exploring the teachings of that pursuit, right?

• 55:21Rich Roll?

  But I would also say that I got into endurance sports to learn more about myself, not to just become an endurance athlete. It wasn't about podiums and winning races and all of that. And also wasn't about, you know, being a competitive athlete for the rest of my life. Like, I wanted to more deeply connect with who I, who I am, so that I could be more authentic in my expression of myself. And as a result of having that experience, I learned a lot about myself and I'm committed to continually growing and evolving, rather than just doing this one thing, staying in my lane and, you know, pleasing a certain number of people. Because what's the point if you're not going to continue to get outside of your comfort

• 56:06Rich Roll?

  zone, challenge yourself and grow?

• 56:07Adam Skolnick?

  And the point of pushing the comfort zone is, is to remind yourself or learn the lesson over and over again, that I can, I can be more than I thought I was, right? I can, I can, I, there's, there's more to me.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  And that empowers the ability to transcend those stories that hold you back.

• 56:27Adam Skolnick?

  Exactly. So it's like a feedback loop.

• 56:29Rich Roll?

  Right. It's, yeah, it's a positive feedback loop.

• 56:31Adam Skolnick?

  It's a positive feedback loop. And, and that plays into, I don't know, you know, Angela Davis, legendary Black Panther and an activist for, you know, decades. I saw a quote from her this week and it was something like, I constantly, I can be an activist because I'm always, because I'm positive we are going to get there. I'm positive it's going to change. There is

• 56:59Rich Roll?

  An optimism.

• 57:00Adam Skolnick?

  An optimism to it, knowing that it will happen. And, and I think that there's a parallel here as well. Moving past the story, you can move past the story when you know there's another place to go.

• 57:12Rich Roll?

  Right. And that begins, just to cap it off, and we'll move on to the next story, like that begins with mindfulness practices. But it also, I would say, a close cousin to that is, commit yourself to doing something that, that contravenes whatever that story is, even if it's a tiny, small win. You know, create that little goal that would put into question the veracity of whatever story you're telling yourself. And with that small win, you can then build on it and ultimately, you know, crater the sandcastle of that imaginary story that you've been telling yourself your whole life that's holding you back.

• 57:49Adam Skolnick?

  I love that. So make that goal and move past it. Okay. So there's a certain level of being an open-minded person to, to doing all of that, to staying open to some other possibility. So this comes from Abby Jenkins. And kind of the bigger question is, when do you remain open-minded and when do you stand your ground? And this is what Abby said, "I struggle with the two contradictory notions of remaining open-minded and ever-growing versus standing up for yourself with beliefs and opinions. It's hard for me to reconcile the two. And I'd love to know your thoughts on social media." I guess, would life be simpler without it? I don't, I don't really understand the end of it, but I think the

• 58:33Adam Skolnick?

  real question is, between those two.

• 58:37Rich Roll?

  Open-mindedness versus standing your ground.

• 58:41Rich Roll?

  I don't see them as necessarily contradictory. I think if you're, if you're, uh, first of all, let's start with open mindedness. Now more than ever, super important to be open minded. I think in order to be open minded, you have to have a healthy dose of humility. Right? Yeah. It means setting aside whatever preconceived idea you have about something. So that you can enter a conversation or read an article or watch a documentary from a more objective point of view. To understand that, you know, your worldview or whatever it is you're holding on to is, can be challenged. Does require some humility, right? Like, we all like have our idea of what the world is, right?

• 59:25Rich Roll?

  And when that's challenged, can you get into a place of openness rather than defensiveness? And that's difficult, you know, it's very difficult. And right now, when everything is so heightened, you know, we're seeing people clench down, doubling down on their worldview or their idea of what's right and what's not right. So again, humility is important for that in order to be open minded. I think reading is super important. You know, read as much as you can from as many sources as you possibly can. You can't have conviction about a particular issue unless you're well read and well versed on it. Yeah. Right?

• 1:00:04Rich Roll?

  And I think, um, standing up for yourself with beliefs and opinions requires that you have self-awareness, self-understanding and conviction on a certain idea or point of view, right? So when you can confidently say that you've educated yourself on something, you've checked in with your value system and you think something is right, then I think it's totally appropriate to stand up for what you believe in. You can still remain open to other ideas. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't or are not allowed to speak your mind and your truth.

• 1:00:44Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Rich Roll?

  Does that make sense?

• 1:00:46Adam Skolnick?

  I think it does. And by the way, Abby, I have to apologize. I was, I was reading the end of another question.

• 1:00:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, no. It's just hard for me to reconcile it too, and I'd love to know your thoughts on remaining open and accepting while trying to also know who you are and be confident in that. I would also say to that, that if someone disagrees with you, to not take it personally. I think we personalize all these things and then we become emotionally charged.

• 1:01:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Rich Roll?

  Right? Because we think somebody is judging us or they're trying to deconstruct the validity of our identity or something like that, when in truth, somebody has a different idea. So can you, it goes back to mindfulness too. Can you remain calm? Let's say you're in a conversation that starts to get heated because it's two opposing points of view.

• 1:01:30Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 1:01:30Rich Roll?

  Can you remain calm? Can you remain objective? Can you receive what that person is saying without it pushing all your buttons and making you reactive?

• 1:01:40Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 1:01:41Rich Roll?

  Can you listen? And then, yeah, can you listen? Like we're, if anything, right now, we're experiencing a poverty of our ability to listen.

• 1:01:50Adam Skolnick?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:50Rich Roll?

  Right? And I think with the weaponization of social media and the heightened, you know, emotional climate that we're in with coronavirus that's amplified by the social protests and the unrest that we're seeing, everybody is on edge. Everybody's shouting, there's not a lot of listening. And honestly, I fear for the, you know, cohesion of our union unless we can find a way to transcend this. And as far as I can tell, the only way to do it is through productive conversation. We have to be able to have grounded, mature, productive conversations.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  And we can't do that unless we're able to listen and unless we're able to receive somebody's point of view that may differ from our own and, and, and really take that in and, and validate other people's points of view.

• 1:02:47Adam Skolnick?

  Exactly. We need our 60-year-olds to be able to see a BLM sign and not freak out.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:02:55Adam Skolnick?

  Sixteen, not sixteen.

• 1:02:57Rich Roll?

  If that 60-year-old has a problem with it, there are other avenues for him to voice, you know, exercise his First Amendment right.

• 1:03:03Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 1:03:03Rich Roll?

  And I have no problem with him doing that. I may disagree with him, but can we move past the emotional aspect of this so that the conversation becomes more productive and puts us on a path towards repairing past damage and recreating, you know, a better, more healthy union for everybody?

• 1:03:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, and being open-minded isn't necessarily a liberal thing, or, you know, being open-minded and being open. Often, people on the far left are just as open-minded as anybody else.

• 1:03:39Rich Roll?

  This is not a partisan thing.

• 1:03:40Adam Skolnick?

  No. Okay, how do you deal with imposter syndrome? From Philip Diddy, "You have mentioned imposter syndrome a couple of times in past podcasts. I too suffer or struggle from that, despite some level of ability to be successful in endeavors that I feel an imposter in. I'm grateful for friends that mirror back to me my value to them. Certainly, you have recognized that you have many fans and supporters and even guests that you have had an impact on. It's a paradox, for sure. What exactly does imposter syndrome look for you? How do you face and overcome it enough to continue forward in your path? What would you tell someone trying to flip the switch toward a desire to serve humanity that is afraid of the next step due to imposter syndrome?"

• 1:04:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a tough one, because I'm always saying that I suffer from imposter syndrome, and I think I do to some extent. I had this guy, Chris Evans, came to my house who hosts the most popular morning radio show in the UK on Virgin Radio UK.

• 1:04:44Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:04:44Rich Roll?

  It's like the breakfast show. He's a fan of the podcast, What's Up, Chris, if you're listening to, I love you. And he's always giving the show shout-outs on morning radio in, like, London, which is awesome. But he... He came to my house and we did our own podcast for his show. And he's like, you're always saying you have imposter syndrome. He says, you don't have imposter syndrome. He's like, you know what you're doing? I'm like, do I? I don't know. You know, like, I have to be reminded. And I think it's like a slow boil thing. Like, I do feel like I can own this space right now. I've been doing this for seven years. I've interviewed 520 plus people. I'm confident when I sit here that I know what I'm doing, that I'm going to be able to get through an hour and a half.

• 1:05:29Rich Roll?

  And it's going to be, you know, they're not all going to be amazing, but hopefully, you know, all of them have some value. So that's a story that I have, to some extent, transcended. Back to that other question. I like to throw it around, though, every once in a while. Because, you know, it is like,

• 1:05:47Adam Skolnick?

  Well, you were at one point, right?

• 1:05:47Rich Roll?

  Well, I do have these pinch me moments where I'm like, what am I doing in Jack Dorsey's house right now? Like, how did this happen? You know, like, do I have any qualifications to talk to this guy? Like, or some, you know, incredible athlete that I revere? You know, it's, I think it's more of a humility at this point. And, you know, Chase Jarvis, photographer who I've had on the podcast, who has a lot of wisdom on the creative process, says, you know, you hear that phrase like, fake it till you make it. He's like, make it till you make it. Just keep making it, you know, like inch your way forward. Like, this podcast didn't start in this beautiful set. You know, you grow into these things over time. And with that, I think you slowly, as you develop some level of mastery

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  over what you're doing, you're able to kind of transcend that idea of being an imposter. I would say that I have a deep-seated insecurity in me that is, you know, I've spent a lifetime trying to unpack and overcome, but it crops its head up once in a while and tells me, like, I have no business being here and somebody else should be sitting here. And when are they gonna, when's the guy gonna walk in here and take away my, you know, like, who told you you could have a podcast? You're done, you know what I mean?

• 1:06:59Adam Skolnick?

  Wait, but it's your podcast.

• 1:07:01Rich Roll?

  Or who wants to hear what you have to say or your opinion on any of this?

• 1:07:04Adam Skolnick?

  The real rituals just down the hall.

• 1:07:07Rich Roll?

  Well, the imposter syndrome definitely is creeping up around this new format, because this is new, right? And it's like, there are political pundits who know a lot more about this stuff than I do. Let's let them do that. But

• 1:07:20Rich Roll?

  I have to make it until I make it, right? And the more I can do that, the less, um, the less like held hostage I am by that insecurity in that sense that I am an imposter. So how do you drill that down into some kind of tangible advice for Philip?

• 1:07:39Rich Roll?

  It really is make it till you make it, right? Like if you're feeling like you're an imposter,

• 1:07:45Rich Roll?

  don't give that story power, like act as if, like act in contravention of that. Like do, yeah, take in, in, in AA, there's a phrase, um, take contrary action. So just because your brain is telling you something doesn't mean that it's true, right? Your instinct is broken often when it comes to things like this. So when you take the contrary, what would somebody who didn't have imposter syndrome do? Well, they would make another podcast or they would paint a painting or they would like, get up on stage at the, at the comedy store, whatever it is, right? Get out of your comfort zone, make it till you make it and take the contrary action.

• 1:08:26Adam Skolnick?

  I like it.

• 1:08:28Adam Skolnick?

  To me, I'm thinking, don't believe everything you feel. And, uh, and, uh, but I think the imposter syndrome, there is a positive to it. Not a, not the syndrome, but there's a positive to the fact that you're not comfortable. There's something to be said for not getting comfortable. And knowing that you have to show up and actually do the work. You can't just turn on the mics and expect it to work. You can't just like show up and, um, and put, put, take, you know, get a story done. If you haven't done the research for the story.

• 1:08:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It, it goes back to humility. The, the, the healthy second cousin of imposter syndrome is humility.

• 1:09:04Adam Skolnick?

  That's it.

• 1:09:05Rich Roll?

  Right? It's like, rather than say, I don't deserve to be here, just say, look, I have a lot to learn. I'm still going to show up, get out of my comfort zone and do this thing. But I appreciate that I'm just starting and I'm not going to be perfect, but I'm going to do it anyway. Like to have that courage to, to do it imperfectly, right?

• 1:09:23Adam Skolnick?

  I felt like I felt like I was an imposter for the first seven years I was a journalist, you know, and even even 10, 13 years deep, I still wondered if I could do it.

• 1:09:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:09:34Adam Skolnick?

  And and I've been doing it for 13 years.

• 1:09:38Rich Roll?

  Right. Who's going to take that little hat off your head with the press thing?

• 1:09:42Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right. And now, but now I don't feel that way anymore. But I still, every time I have a new project to do, I still wonder, can I do it? But not in a negative way.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  But you have this muscle because you've done it so many times. Like as a writer, when you're beginning that project, you're like, how am I ever going to figure out how to do this? Like, it just seems hopeless, right? But you've been in that situation so many times that you're like, I know I feel this way right now, but I also know, like, I always figure it out.

• 1:10:08Adam Skolnick?

  That's it.

• 1:10:09Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:10:09Adam Skolnick?

  It always ends up better. And if you just do enough drafts, it'll get good.

• 1:10:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:23Adam Skolnick?

  Cool. A couple more. How do you handle conflict? This is from Alison Warner. How do you handle conflict? What advice do you have for respecting the other person while respecting yourself? What about facing and conquering the fear just before you begin speaking?

• 1:10:38Adam Skolnick?

  So two questions. What advice do you have for respecting the other person while respecting yourself? Start there.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  Respecting the other person while respecting yourself. I mean, that that goes a little, that that dovetails a little bit with the open minded versus stand your ground.

• 1:10:53Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 1:10:53Rich Roll?

  Question, I think. I would say with respect to handling conflict, traditionally, I haven't done this well. Like, this has been a huge learning curve for me and and an instance in which the tools of sobriety have been very helpful to me. I am a notorious conflict averse person. I will do everything to avoid having to deal with conflict. And to this day, I still duck out of every uncomfortable situation in which I'm going to have to say something, you know, that's difficult. So this is a battle that I've been waging with myself forever. And the hilarious thing is that I used to be a litigator, right? My job was to advocate in conflict.

• 1:11:38Rich Roll?

  It was like probably the worst, worst professional, you know, situation for me to be in. And I can remember like being in depositions or like, you know, sitting in on deposition and just thinking like, can't you guys just get over this? Like, can't we just make this go away? Like, I was so uncomfortable with the fact that there were parties that were at odds with each other and I just wanted it to be over with. And to be an effective lawyer, you have to, on some level, you have to thrive on conflict. You have to kind of maybe not enjoy it, but certainly be comfortable with it, right? Some people love it. And I just remember never feeling that way. And that was a big reason why I was like,

• 1:12:18Rich Roll?

  I just, I can't continue to do this for a living, at least as a litigator. So I guess what I'm saying is like, this has been a huge like mountain to climb for myself. And I think, and, and part of that too, I should say, comes out of what I think is a somewhat laudable impulse or, or instinct, which is that I can always see the gray in everything. Like, no matter what somebody's saying, I can always, I'm pretty empathetic. So I can always see somebody else's point of view. I think I'm pretty good at that. And I think that that has been a benefit to me as a podcast host, because to some extent, I can, I really try

• 1:12:58Rich Roll?

  hard to step in the shoes of the person that I'm talking to. But I think when, when you're able to see the gray in everything, it makes it more difficult to erect healthy boundaries. Because you defer to the other person's perspective, which is what I find myself doing. So for me, handling conflicts in a healthy way goes hand in hand with learning how to create healthy boundaries for yourself. And understanding what those boundaries are for you goes back again to the process of self-inquiry and really being clear on what your values are. Like, what is okay and what is not okay? And when somebody

• 1:13:38Rich Roll?

  Transgresses you, you know, crosses that boundary of what is okay. Do you have the integrity and the self-esteem to voice that boundary to that person? Or erect that boundary or move away from that person? Right? When you don't have healthy self-esteem, you don't, you're unable to do that. Right? You'll let people steamroll over you because you don't feel like your point of view is valid or, or has merit. Right? Self-esteem comes through performing esteemable acts. You have to do esteemable things to develop that self-esteem. The more self-esteem you have, the better position you're in to create that healthy boundary and to make it be known.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  And I think when you're, when you are creating those boundaries or you have to give voice to them, it's also understanding that it's not a personal thing either. It's like, this is important to me and I need you to respect that. And if that person has a, person that you're speaking to has a problem with that, that's more about that person than you. Because it's only somebody with low self-esteem that, that would be upset that that person is upset with your boundary.

• 1:14:48Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:14:49Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:14:49Adam Skolnick?

  Well, right. These are not, the level, it's not like you either respect yourself or the other person. I mean, ideally, you're doing both at the same time.

• 1:14:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:58Adam Skolnick?

  We're juggling here. So you can like, you can respect yourself first. You can't really respect anybody else if you, if you don't respect yourself.

• 1:15:04Rich Roll?

  But if somebody else doesn't respect a boundary that you've created, then they're not respecting you. And if you allow them to do that, that's a reflection of your poor self-esteem.

• 1:15:14Adam Skolnick?

  There you go.

• 1:15:14Rich Roll?

  Because you're not respecting yourself, I guess is what I'm saying.

• 1:15:17Adam Skolnick?

  I think you've just terrified anybody who just gave a lawyer a retainer.

• 1:15:23Rich Roll?

  Well, hopefully the lawyer they gave the retainer to isn't someone like me.

• 1:15:27Adam Skolnick?

  Hopefully you chose.

• 1:15:28Rich Roll?

  I was still able to do my job relatively well.

• 1:15:31Adam Skolnick?

  You did well. You masked it.

• 1:15:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I did have to mask it though.

• 1:15:34Adam Skolnick?

  You were an imposter.

• 1:15:37Adam Skolnick?

  All right. This is a good one to close with. How do you discern truth from fiction? This is from Tom L.A. Jones. One of the things I've found hardest in the last few weeks or months is how much false information there's been thrown around. I personally have felt like I've lost friends and teachers because they've become so engrossed in 5G, anti-vax, gates, et cetera, conspiracy theories, that it's tainted all the lessons I've received from them in the past, which I also pass on as a yoga teacher myself. My question to you, or invitation for a topic of conversation, is how to discern truth from non-truth, how to know who to listen to and trust, and why it even matters. Perhaps if I simply turned the news off and turned off my conspiracy theory pushing

• 1:16:22Adam Skolnick?

  friends on social media, or just turned that off altogether, life would be simpler.

• 1:16:27Rich Roll?

  This is a tough one. Life would be simpler, of course, but I don't know that it would be better. And to the extent that Tom is questioning whether or not truth matters, let me be very clear: truth matters. Truth matters more now than ever. If we can't agree upon what is true and what isn't true, how do we move forward as a society? And I think we're in a very precarious moment right now, where truth is being questioned all over the place, and the firm ground upon which we stand in terms of what is real and what

• 1:17:07Rich Roll?

  isn't is becoming more and more difficult to discern. And it's deeply concerning to me. Truth is incredibly important. And I don't know how we got to this place where we have become so distrustful of vetted sources, and so prone to believing things from dubious sources, that it's made conversation, back to this issue of conversation, very difficult, right? I don't know what else to say, other than that it is incumbent upon Tom, myself,

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  you, all of us, to vet the sources of our information, to be more mindful and conscientious about our information silos and where we are receiving information from. We can be open-minded, to go back to the other question, but we can't be... we can't allow ourselves to be...

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  Susceptible to the level of manipulation that we're seeing right now. And I think that vetting your sources is important. Now, that doesn't mean that perhaps the New York Times doesn't bend in a certain direction politically, but there is something to be said for the journalistic ethic and the standards of journalism that are required to produce stories for legitimate news outlets. You can receive those from different points along the political spectrum, but I think when you're reading blog posts and you don't know who wrote this, or where this information

• 1:18:54Rich Roll?

  came from, or you're just digesting clickbait headlines, it's problematic. So, I don't know what else to say, other than that you really need to vet your sources. Completely, whether it's podcasts, newspapers, television programs, news programs, whatever.

• 1:19:15Adam Skolnick?

  And what about the, when you see people you respect start to trade in these conspiracy theories, or unproven theories, forget conspiracy, but just unproven theories, where does your mind go?

• 1:19:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, first of all, not all conspiracy theories are untrue. Many of them are. So, I don't want to, we're not going to debate which one of these are true or not, right now, but there are conspiracies.

• 1:19:48Adam Skolnick?

  I'm willing to say 5G is untrue.

• 1:19:50Rich Roll?

  There are some conspiracies that, you know, it's like, that have validity. So, I think when you're engaging with somebody like that, you could just say, "Tell me more about that." Allow them to, but you have to be convicted.

• 1:20:08Rich Roll?

  In your own sense of reality, I think, to do that.

• 1:20:12Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Rich Roll?

  But, you know, you don't have to engage those people.

• 1:20:18Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:20:18Rich Roll?

  You don't, you don't have to get into an argument with them. You don't have to follow them on social media. It's not your obligation to prove them wrong.

• 1:20:27Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:20:27Rich Roll?

  You have a choice about what you consume. So if this has become problematic for you, turn off the television and get off social media and go outdoors and enjoy your life and your family and your children. Life is short, man. So, I don't know what else to say.

• 1:20:44Adam Skolnick?

  No, I think, I think what he's saying, the one thing that is problematic with, you know, for a long time, this has been building this direction. There's a flattening of the media landscape where it used to, you used to be able to tell really quickly what's a legitimate news source and what isn't, just by looking at it, feeling the newspaper or the magazine in your hands.

• 1:21:01Rich Roll?

  And now it's no longer clear.

• 1:21:03Adam Skolnick?

  And now it's harder to see. So there's flattening of that landscape. Now, for someone who works as a journalist, I always will trust the journalist on the ground before I'll trust almost anybody, just because they're there. And, just like I would trust a doctor who's been through medical school or through, you know, when it's an acute situation, then I will some guy.

• 1:21:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:25Adam Skolnick?

  But, there has been this desire, and it's not just in, in journalism, but there has been this movement to attack the expert.

• 1:21:38Rich Roll?

  Right. That's new.

• 1:21:40Adam Skolnick?

  That's new. And what you do is you love to bring in experts and probe experts and try to figure out what's going on, so for the betterment of your listenership. It's interesting that now the expert, whether it's a CDC guy, or whether, you know, whoever it is, you know, whether it's Fauci or whoever.

• 1:21:59Rich Roll?

  Now, if you're an expert, you're the first person to be dismissed.

• 1:22:02Adam Skolnick?

  Why should I trust you?

• 1:22:03Rich Roll?

  You're an expert.

• 1:22:08Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:22:09Adam Skolnick?

  You're an expert. Why should I trust you?

• 1:22:11Rich Roll?

  It's very strange.

• 1:22:12Adam Skolnick?

  It's a very bizarre, where everything is a little upside down right now. But I think the reason it's not, you know, that it matters is because now, basically, in a real way, um, our lives depend on it, you know? Like, we can't have some people not, we can, and we are, some people are choosing not to believe in it, but the virus numbers will go up. So then, I think one answer to, to Tom is just like, you have to stay awake yourself and realize that and make choices knowing that.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  You have to put yourself in charge, I think, and take responsibility for your information diet in a way that we didn't have, we didn't used to have to.

• 1:22:51Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:22:51Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:22:52Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  But it is strange that now, the first people we call into question are the experts.

• 1:22:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58Rich Roll?

  Like, how did we get to this point? And, again, it goes back to a breakdown in our ability to basically be on the same page about anything.

• 1:23:07Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:08Rich Roll?

  And I think, you know, part of the process of evaluating your source material is, is objectively trying to understand, like, the, the motivations behind the piece, right? Like, who stands to benefit from this? What is this person's point of view? Why are they advocating for this in this way? Like, if you can read with a critical eye, I think that puts you already, you know, way ahead of the game.

• 1:23:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Rich Roll?

  But now, everybody's so, so, because news narratives seem to shift so frequently, it's led to this level of distrust, and I think it creates, um, a, an amenable to conspiracy theories in order for the human brain to try to make sense of the, of a, of a world that, that feels like it's in chaos. Because if there's a grand unifying theory to everything, then you can sleep at night thinking, this makes sense.

• 1:24:04Adam Skolnick?

  That's right. There's so many that you could go to. I mean, for me with conspiracy theories, I always think of, is it Occam's razor? Right. Yeah, like, the simplest explanation is usually the one that's true. So, which kind of usually eviscerates most conspiracy theories. But demands somebody's playing like eight dimensional chess. Right, like, it's usually not that. It's usually, most things come down to human incompetence. Right. Let me tell you that right now. Ask Greta. For the callback. Ask Greta. She will tell you, most things come down to human incompetence. It's not evil, it's incompetence.

• 1:24:49Adam Skolnick?

  Well, you've written for the New York Times and all kinds of, you know, how dare you write for the New York Times, right? Yeah, how dare me. You know, talk a little bit about that journalistic ethic and what goes into that. Well, I mean, there's a level of fact checking in major publications where, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna have an editor or a research editor go back through and contact your sources to make sure that these things happened, or you prove it with taped interviews or whatever where it becomes clear. So there's a level of fact checking that go on with professional publications that don't go on for most web only articles. So, almost, almost no, but that's not necessarily always true. I also write for Longreads, which is web only, and

• 1:25:33Adam Skolnick?

  they do the best fact checking I've ever had done. But there was a time when web only meant no fact checking. Right. And print meant fact checking. I will always trust a journalist on the ground. That doesn't mean journalists don't get things wrong. I think someone wrote, I forget who it was, I wish I had this at my fingertips, where I could, or it would be good entertaining to watch me Google it, but, you know, someone wrote, "Journalism is the first draft in history." So, and Gladwell often says, Malcolm Gladwell often says, the later you are, the smarter you have to be, which is basically acknowledging that the first draft of history isn't always the most accurate, but it is a version, and it is the most accurate version at that time. That's what you're hoping to do. As a reporter, when I go into something, I've done many,

• 1:26:18Adam Skolnick?

  many times, most of the stuff I've done has been reported before, just not by me. So then

• 1:26:23Rich Roll?

  the Yeah, you're not breaking news.

• 1:26:25Adam Skolnick?

  No, I have, I've had the opportunity to do that, too. And it's, it's liberating, because you know, you don't have to, you just have to be smarter than nothing, which is easy. But you still want to do a great job, right? Because you want to be, you want to make it harder for anyone to follow you to find stuff you didn't find. But, so I've done both, but most of the time I do the latter. So, so in that case, you know ahead what's been done, and you know where the holes are, and that's your role to fill it. But when you're doing it, when you're, when you're covering protests on the ground, or whatever, or a Trump rally, or something happening in the moment, there are deadlines that happen. You have to turn in your copy right away. There's someone working on it immediately. For the New York Times specifically, you turn something in, it's getting turned,

• 1:27:10Adam Skolnick?

  especially if it's a breaking story, it's getting turned around right away, within hours, and it's up on the website before it's even in the paper. And it can be six hours or three hours after you've turned it in.

• 1:27:20Rich Roll?

  And the pressure to be first to print

• 1:27:22Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Rich Roll?

  is huge, right?

• 1:27:24Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:24Rich Roll?

  Which inevitably is going to lead to errors in reporting.

• 1:27:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Rich Roll?

  And the whole, the whole system is premised on an ad model, right?

• 1:27:33Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:27:33Rich Roll?

  It's driven by clicks. So it's inherently problematic for that reason.

• 1:27:39Adam Skolnick?

  But, you know, but listen.

• 1:27:40Rich Roll?

  It's nice to see some of these platforms moving to subscription model. I really think that's the future, right? How are we going to get independent, you know, well reasoned, considered journalism, when it's about, what is the title? You know, how are we going to get this many people to click on this title and see these banner ads?

• 1:27:57Adam Skolnick?

  You know, but it's important to say, just because journalists make mistakes sometimes, they are often the best place to interpret something, because they're there, they're usually studying it often, especially with the New York Times, they're experts in a particular area, or they've been working on a specific desk for a period of time. So they, they have the most sources, really. They're the ones talking to the most people about that very specific thing. And we have this problem now where we don't have faith. We choose not to have faith unless we've seen it ourselves. It's like a reversal of some kind. Like, it's almost like the natural like blowback from what it used to be. Like, when I was growing up, we wanted

• 1:28:38Adam Skolnick?

  to be iconoclast. We wanted to be, we wanted to go against the grain. I read the LA Weekly, specifically because it was a different point of view.

• 1:28:46Rich Roll?

  Alternative.

• 1:28:47Adam Skolnick?

  It was an alternative point of view. But now, everyone's looking for that alternative. And so it's no longer just the people on the edge of culture looking for that. Now, it's everybody in culture looking for that. It's beyond just siloization, although that's part of what we're talking about. It's this doubt that is sewed into almost everything.

• 1:29:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:10Adam Skolnick?

  Like, we doubt our doctors. We doubt the CDC guy. We doubt our journalists. We doubt, we doubt too much. I used to be into being a rebel, but now we doubt too much. We're afraid to trust. There is a trust deficit.

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  And it's incredibly destabilizing.

• 1:29:30Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:30Rich Roll?

  Across the board for all of us, when we're all doubting on that level, and we can't agree upon some kind of shared ground.

• 1:29:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Rich Roll?

  I had David Katz on the podcast a while back. He wrote an op-ed for the New York Times at the very beginning of the pandemic about his perspective on COVID. And whether you agree with his perspective or not is irrelevant. What happened was, it took, he told me it took 10 days of back and forth with the editors, fact checking, changing this to make sure that everything was like fully vetted. And by the end of that 10-day period, all the stats had changed again because this thing was, and they had to change it again. And like, the elaborate, you know, amount of effort that went into just that simple op-ed that looks like you just write it and it goes up, was way more than I think

• 1:30:19Rich Roll?

  people realize, like, way more than meets the eye. And it's stuff like that that gives me, you know, that gives me confidence that when I pick up a legitimate publication like that, that I'm getting something different than I'm going to get from a blogger with an agenda.

• 1:30:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Rich Roll?

  With no editorial oversight.

• 1:30:40Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:30:40Rich Roll?

  So. I think that's it for today.

• 1:30:44Adam Skolnick?

  It's good, man. Thanks for having me.

• 1:30:45Rich Roll?

  How do you feel?

• 1:30:46Adam Skolnick?

  I feel good. I mean, it's always good to bat the tennis ball back and forth from a safe, safe, social distance.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  I think we're making it till we make it.

• 1:30:57Adam Skolnick?

  Let's make it till we make it, man.

• 1:30:59Rich Roll?

  Right? Now we will go slip hink milkshakes and eat candy.

• 1:31:04Adam Skolnick?

  Let's go eat candy and make some really important policy decisions.

• 1:31:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, until next time, my friend, probably two weeks from now. Thank you for doing this with me. I appreciate it.

• 1:31:14Adam Skolnick?

  Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening.

• 1:31:16Rich Roll?

  This concludes this episode of Roll On, whatever we decide to title this.

• 1:31:21Adam Skolnick?

  Roll on everything.

• 1:31:22Rich Roll?

  If you enjoyed this, you can find Adam online at Adam Skolnick on all the socials. You know where to find me. This is also up on YouTube if you want to watch us ping pong back and forth verbally. What else? Check out the show notes on the episode page. We're going to link up all the stuff that we talked about today, so you can delve deeper into whatever piqued your interest. And that's it. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show and making it look beautiful and all those clips that we share around on social media. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. Ally

• 1:32:01Rich Roll?

  Rogers for portraits. Jessica Miranda for graphics. And theme music by my boys Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis and DK sitting over there right now. DK for the important advertiser relationships. We'll see you back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode. I appreciate all you guys taking this journey with me, allowing me and Adam and I to think out loud in real time and hope you guys enjoyed it. Peace. Blance.