That Feeling That Something's Missing, and How To Find It | Vinny Ferraro

How a 10-second pause can quiet the urge for more, why contentment comes through subtraction, not addition, and why a gratitude list alone can't fix the feeling. Vinny Ferraro https://vinnyferraro.org/ has practiced insight meditation (vipassanā) since the mid-90s. He's the Guiding Teacher of the Big Heart City Sangha in San Francisco and has led a weekly sitting group for almost two decades. As a fully empowered Dharma Teacher thru Spirit Rock/IMS, he has taught residential retreats at various centers and currently, leads Spirit Rock's Year to Live https://spirit-rock.secure.retreat.guru/program/a-year-to-live-yl8t27/?lang=en course. In this episode we talk about: Why no moment ever feels quite good enough Whether you actually need all that wanting to get things done How to tell healthy desire from the compulsive kind Why getting what you want so rarely delivers Why "why am I like this?" might be the wrong question How to stop turning other people's joy into a story about you Why gratitude lists can still leave you reaching How to turn a wandering mind into a ticker tape parade Why we dodge the present moment like an old drug dealer The ten-second pause you can slip into almost anywhere The two-word rule for deciding what to say yes to A walking phrase that makes everything feel panoramic What to do with the sadness of remembering it all ends Related Episodes: Frank Ostaseski, What Death Can Teach Us About Living https://open.spotify.com/episode/46QtYelsBfdONjmVuvED9Z Additional Resources: Vinny Ferraro's Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD This episode is sponsored by: Base44: Go to Base44.com/Happier http://base44.com/Happier and sign up through our link to get 30% off the Builder plan for your first year. Feeding America: Head to FeedingAmerica.org/Holiday http://feedingamerica.org/Holiday right now to make a gift. Every dollar makes a real difference. Rosetta Stone: Visit rosettastone.com/happier http://rosettastone.com/happier to redeem your 20% off Rosetta Stone Sapphire. Northwest Registered Agent: Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/HappierFree http://northwestregisteredagent.com/HappierFree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Square: Get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/happier http://square.com/go/happier! #squarepod Oura Ring: Wear your best life with Oura: ouraring.com http://ouraring.com/ To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dan Harris?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. One of, if not the, most potent sources of human suffering is compulsive wanting. You know what I'm talking about. No moment is ever good enough. Nothing's ever complete. We're always looking for the next thing, the next bite, the next scroll, the next achievement, you name it. But what if you could achieve some sort of contentment of enoughness? That's what we're going to talk about today with one of my favorite Buddhist teachers, Vinny Ferraro. Vinnie, many of you know him. He's a fan favorite. He trained in the Spirit Rock IMS tradition, and he leads retreats across the country and the world. He teaches in schools, juvenile halls, and prisons. He's also got an online course that he co-teaches

• 0:47Dan Harris?

  and that will be launching in a few weeks. It's called A Year to Live. You can sign up for it at the link in the show notes. And he is Teacher of the Month for this month, the month of November, on the 10% with Dan Harris meditation app, where he's created a series of guided meditations on the subject of enoughness. Okay, enough out of me. Vinnie Ferraro, welcome back to the show.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Dan. Good to see you.

• 1:12Dan Harris?

  It's a huge pleasure. Thanks for making time to do this. I know that all of the folks in my world would be happy to hear your voice and see your face again.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Thanks, bro.

• 1:23Dan Harris?

  Okay, enough, enoughness, contentment, compulsive wanting. We reached out to you and said, hey, we'd love to have you back on the show. What do you want to talk about? This is what you said this was like topping number one for you. Why?

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I don't know. Maybe it's because I've worked so hard in 20, 30 years. And it's just like, yo, but like, you've succeeded. Okay, you did what you want to do. You have meaning and purpose and beautiful family. And so I was just kind of wondering, what is ever enough? You know, like, is there a happiness to be had in this life? You know, I'm not waiting on any blood test to come back. You know, I'm not waiting for the parole board to wonder if I'm able to be in public again. Like, I don't have real

• 2:17Speaker 01

  problems. And yet, there's always this feeling that it's just about to get better.

• 2:24Dan Harris?

  I just want to point out that that reference to the parole board was not tongue-in-cheek. You, in earlier parts of your life, that was a live issue for you.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But it just becomes alive for me now, like with having a son and watching his childhood, just how quickly it's moving. And so, over the last year or so, I just feel like everything I've been teaching has been somehow wandered into this territory of what is, what will ever be enough for the mind? And where else can we look for what's enough?

• 3:00Dan Harris?

  There's something about, I don't want to spend too much time on raising boys, since not everybody listening will relate to that. But I would just literally, right before this podcast, in my son's room, and he was talking at length, as he is wont to do, about the National Football League. And I could feel myself getting a little bored and thinking of all the shit I could, you know, be crossing off my to-do list. And yet, and some other part of me is like, dude, you should soak this up, because in five minutes, he's going to be moving out of the house.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Yeah. You know, it goes by fast. And it's like, is there anybody here to receive this experience that's happening? Right? Like, you know, there's that old church raffle phrase, you know, you have to be present to win, you know? And it just feels like that. It's like, yo, if I'm always on my way somewhere, always strategizing, always trying to get the drop on the next moment, I'm literally missing what's in front of me. And I don't want to do that.

• 4:10Dan Harris?

  Why are we like this?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  I don't know. And I don't know if that's the right question. You know, like, the why question has been a labyrinth for me. And yeah, we could say, oh, yeah, there's a primordial fear of slowing down and always getting the drop on the next moment, you know, great evolutionary benefits, you know, all that stuff makes sense to me. But it doesn't really satisfy the real question of like, can I actually pause and not be driven by this kind of compulsive quality that comes with this nervous system and these bodies

• 4:49Speaker 01

  and these minds? So, yeah, I find, I find just seeing if I can just not grab the next vine so quickly, because there's always another vine to grab.

• 5:04Dan Harris?

  How are you doing with that, the not grabbing the next vine?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  It's getting easier, right? It's like, anything we practice, I feel like we get better at. And so, I've been noticing it more in the moments when I actually fail it. And it's like, oh, wow, okay, I can take this kind of backward step and, and return back to the moment, because it's a short commute. You know, it's like, you know, I can come back and find my feet on the floor, or, you know, whatever's present, you know? So I've been watching just what takes me away and what delivers me back. And so, that's been just a practice of mine.

• 5:49Dan Harris?

  And it's just as simple as seeing, okay, I'm not here anymore. What was it that took me back to seventh grade? And how do I get back?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, not so much to former. I don't care what distracted me, because that's just more distraction. Right? I still haven't arrived, because I'm backtracking and trying to find the breadcrumbs of where did I go wrong? And it's still just more narrative, more story. It's like, no, dude, there's an experience like right here. Right? And so that's what I mean about returning to the present moment. But I like the question about reach. Why do we reach so much? You know, why do we think that some other moment is going to hold what this one doesn't? And that's like playing three-card money in the

• 6:40Speaker 01

  back of the bus. You know, it's never where you think it is. And so, you know, at least for me, I always knew something was missing. I just never imagined it was my presence. Like, there's no way. That would be the last place I would ever look. And so, I've been, I've been watching, what am I reaching for? Do I have to? Is there a compulsive quality? You know, these kind of, this neighborhood?

• 7:08Dan Harris?

  I want to dig into the reach and the things we can do about that, about the reach and that key moment of noticing it. But let me just ask one last, larger question here, because I think sometimes people get a little squirrely around this issue of wanting and not being in the present moment, because they feel like, well, don't I need to be, don't I need this wanting in order to get anything done?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  That old trope. Let's trot that out. Right? Like, we have been taking our marching orders from the mind for a lifetime. Great, there's great benefits, but it can't be the only source of wisdom. Because what has ever been enough for the mind? How many times have you felt in your life, you know, great success, right? How many times are you just like, you know what? This is it, man. You know what I mean? Like, it's, this is enough.

• 8:10Dan Harris?

  Embarrassingly few moments of that.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  So, so if we know that, that it's not based on conditions, because, you know, there has been success, right? We have gotten what we wanted 10,000 times. And it's like, wow. So, it's just not a great, you know, the mind is not good at gauging what is enough.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  You know, one of my teachers told me early on, she said, samsara is this endless urge to improve. Right? Nothing wrong with improvement, but the endless part. And you can feel the compulsive quality to it as well. Right? Healthy, healthy desire, healthy wanting, that can tolerate a pause. But reach, that unending urge, that I have to obey it right now? Right? It lets us know that this is, this is not freedom.

• 9:11Dan Harris?

  The Buddha did distinguish between healthy desire and unhealthy desire. Can you say a little bit more about that?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Well, I hate to be the mouthpiece for the Buddha. I am sure if he's rolling around anywhere, thinking about me paraphrasing his teachings. But yeah, it does come down to, well, what's the quality of the awareness? At least for me, I can notice, what's the tone of this desire? Right? And how much are we saddling on experience? I've had lowriders almost my whole life, you know? So there's always been like, the next one, right? So here I am. I have my eyes on the perfect lowrider, 66 Malibu, right? I always go early 60 Chevys,

• 9:58Speaker 01

  you know? And this wasn't just another lowrider. This was like my dream car. So I locate it to another city. I get there. It doesn't have an engine in it, which, you know, is a pretty important feature. So here I am. I got a tow at home. You know, a guy wants to charge me extra for the motor. Anyway, the whole way back, you know, and so much anticipation, I was already living in some imagined future. And in this movie in my head that's playing, the car is finished, me and my friends cruising around, and we're always laughing. Apparently, there's some perpetual joke that never stopped being funny in this movie. Right?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Somehow in this fantasy, I was even a little taller. I was a little thinner. Apparently, the Malibu had the power to perform some minor bodywork on me. This is what I'm saying about like, it's just not realistic. So I'm not just buying a car. I'm asking this car to deliver an entire life to me. You know, friendship, joy, belonging. Of course, no car could carry that. So, but I didn't let myself stay with that disappointment, you know, very long, right? Because the mind's right there with the next plan. You know, once I matte black it out, I want my low riders to be murdered out, right?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Like, it's gotta look like that. And then it was like, well, now you know what? The sound system could use some love, you know? So I gotta get that. Then it was like, no, you know what I really need? This shit needs rims, dude. You know what? Once I get, the rims are gonna push it over the edge, right? And so there's always one more thing waiting to rescue me from the disappointment of the last one. That's what I mean by reach. Like, it barely lets us register the disappointment because there's another vine to grab. And apparently, if I keep upgrading the car, a newer and improved version of me was gonna come with it.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's one example of reach and how desire can be kind of delusional.

• 12:21Dan Harris?

  Yeah. So what do we do about this?

• 12:26Speaker 01

  You know, the practice is to slow it down, right? To get a little bit more discernment about where are we taking these marching orders from? And I kind of know what part of my personality is operating or running the show at any certain time because it comes with certain tones, right? There's the tone of me that feels 15 with a leather jacket on, right? That young rebel punk kid, you know? And then there's the, you know, older, more contemplative, that has seen it, everything come and go so many times.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  I'm a bit more settled and relaxed and, I don't know, mature, right? So I think just knowing, oh, this part of me is trying to run the show now. Do I want to throw at the keys? Or do I want to kind of take a moment and kind of settle into a different part that may have more clear seeing? Yeah. So I think that's what I do about it. It's just knowing, okay, where is this coming from? And is this realistic or am I in a fantasy?

• 13:42Dan Harris?

  Okay, quick break from my conversation with Vinnie. If you're enjoying him as much as I always do, I've got good news for you. You can get a lot more of Vinnie on my app this month. He has made a new series of practices for my meditation app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris. And these meditations are all about our relationship with enough and all the ways we miss the life that's already here because we're always trying to reach for something else, which may sound familiar to many of you. Over the course of November, Vinnie is gonna help you catch the urge before you act on it. He's gonna help you actually enjoy the good stuff that's already here without leaning into the next thing. And he's gonna help you learn to recognize that fleeting state of enoughness.

• 14:26Dan Harris?

  Also, Vinnie will be leading live meditation and Q and A sessions on many Tuesday afternoons throughout the month. So you can sit with him and ask him your questions about meditation. New meditations drop every week in November. Only on the 10% with Dan Harris app. You can sign up at danharris.com. We all want to stay healthy for as long as possible. With Aura, getting started is effortless. Aura Ring measures more than 50 health metrics, including your sleep, movement, stress, and heart health, all from your finger. The Aura app shows you how it's all connected and what to do next. The more you can understand your body, the better you can live in it. Wear your best life with Aura.

• 15:16Dan Harris?

  So it's the, it's training up the wherewithal to notice when we're about to reach or mid-reach and checking it out?

• 15:26Speaker 01

  I think so. Just pausing for 10 seconds, feeling my feet on the ground before grabbing the next thing, right? So can we feel the urge without immediately obeying it? And noticing whether the desire remains after the urgency softens? You know? Because a lot of times, I'm like, oh, no, I'm actually okay. You know, like, I'm kind of surprised that I'm okay because the mind is like, no, no, no, you need, you need, you need. And it's like, oh, actually, there's a fundamental okayness that I can rest in. And like, where else are we gonna find contentment or satisfaction? Or dare I even say happiness?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  If it's not in the settling back? Because it's certainly not in the acquisition mind, right? That's, we know that that's over promises.

• 16:24Dan Harris?

  So I think what you're saying is that, like, you can kind of, and I've tasted this when I can remember to do it. You can kind of red pill yourself that, that you, okay, you're, you notice a desire arising, or like I said, you notice your zombie hand moving toward the phone. And once in a while, speaking personally, I'll wake up from that and I'll just let the desire be there. And then, like everything, it will come and go. And the other side of that is there's something pretty delicious on the other side of that, but it's not as jangly as the initial desire.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's not a shiny new thing, right? It's, for me, it actually feels like, can I receive what's here already before reaching? You know, like, can I receive and recognize enough? And that's a practice, right? That doesn't come factory stock. No, not in me, anyway.

• 17:25Dan Harris?

  Should we feel like a failure if we don't manage to catch most of our desires?

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 17:35Dan Harris?

  That is not the answer I was hoping for.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  No, listen, the mind's gonna judge every step it away. You know, it's, how seriously do we take that? You know, like, the inner critic is alive and well in me and in you, you know? So it's like, okay, we know that tone, right? So we're just talking about what part of our personalities it's operating. We generally know by the tone. I know the tone again. When have I ever been enough for the mind? So, you know, I don't take it too seriously, my thoughts, the thoughts that occur around this self. It's like, the practice is the same. And that's to begin again, right?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Slow down if we can, pause and begin again. And we do that 100 times in a 20-minute meditation. So this is the same, I don't wanna call it a technique, but the same movement. It's like, not so fast. So let's slow down and let's see what's here. So this receiving and recognizing what's enough. I had this moment, 1990.

• 18:52Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I had to start over. I just needed to leave the East Coast. And so here I am, state trooper car, Harley in a trailer. I make it to Capitola on the bike. And I'm seeing dolphins and dayglo and, you know, people chilling on the beach, right? I'm 22 years old. And I was blown away because I had never seen this kind of like, you know, it's like a Net Funicello vibe. Like, you know, it's like, you know, I hadn't seen beach culture yet. And just like so many moments of insight, it came with a feeling of being pissed off.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  I thought, why didn't my freaking family tell me we could live anywhere? You know? I grew up in a dilapidated neighborhood with violence and poverty. Nobody told me you could just live somewhere else. And so there was just like this poor me vibe of just like, look at everything I missed, man. Look at what nobody gave me, you know? And so there was a phone booth there on the beach. And, you know, 1990, way before cell phones. And I walked over and I was, grabbed the phone and I was about to lay into my family and tell them how pissed they were. And the phone's ringing, Dan. And something just shifted.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  And I realized, bro, they didn't tell you because they don't know.

• 20:23Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And suddenly, I understood, yo, that's who I am in the timeline. I get to be the one who calls back and be like, you're never gonna believe what I'm looking at, you know? So I got to bring this good news home. And so I walked toward the phone, thinking about everything they hadn't given me. And by the time somebody picked up, I was thinking about what I could give them. Now, this is before I knew much about meditation at all. I didn't know hardly anything. But there's a wisdom that we have.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Nothing about where I came from changed, but I could finally receive what is in front of me and then share it. Kind of an amazing moment of, you know, this epiphany, you know, that I didn't have to be so bound by my self pity, poor me, identity. Like, if I actually wanted to start a new life, this was part of it. And so I was really elated to, to have that moment and to share with them, you know, something very beautiful.

• 21:35Dan Harris?

  And now you get to do it as much as you want because you still live at the beach or near the beach.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I, I, I mean, I'm the luckiest person I know.

• 21:47Dan Harris?

  Well, that actually, that sentiment, I'm the luckiest person I know, is interesting because it gets us right back to enoughness. Like, can we, you know, we can do what we've discussed earlier, which is try to muster some mindfulness to notice when we're reaching for things. But can we recognize on the other side of it, what satisfaction is, what contentment is? Because, because the culture is pushing us toward dopamine and the next, the more, all the time.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we could end up like bullying ourselves into gratitude. You know what I mean? At least the difference for me between gratitude and enough, you know, I can make a list of everything I'm grateful for and still spend the day reaching for the next thing. Right? And so that's why I feel like enough may come first. Because enough means I'm not demanding a different moment before I'm willing to be present. Right? When I stop leaning toward the next thing, I can finally receive what's already here. In from that receiving gratitude begins to arise on its own.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  So it's not something we have to manufacture. It's what becomes possible when I'm actually available, you know, for my life.

• 23:10Dan Harris?

  But that, that does require some slowing down. I think, as you describe it, letting the, to use a low rider metaphor, letting the engine idle.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and there's things that make the idle higher, right? When I'm surrounded by my extended family, I could notice the idle just a bit more, you know, ready to punch it. You know what I mean? Ready to hit the eject button, you know, ready to escape. Right? And then there's things that, you know, time in nature for me now, never lived anywhere but cities. And now there's like this natural slowing down for me. I said, you know, somebody that's turning 60 in January.

• 23:56Dan Harris?

  Oh, happy birthday.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  I'm kind of surprised at it because I've always been right in the middle of everything and, you know, music and art and shows and, you know, all the things. And now I, I know that when I take a walk in nature, it kind of does something to my nervous system, something I really like.

• 24:15Dan Harris?

  Can you enjoy that without holding on to it?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Sometimes. You know, for me, when I'm in nature, it's like this endless display of life and death. That's just always unfolding. So, living in the mountains here with the redwoods and the creeks and mudslides and everything that it means, it's like, I know I'm going to be a different person after scrolling for 20 minutes or taking a stroll in the, in the garden for 20 minutes. And it's just going to deliver a different Vinnie. So there are things that we can do. You know, sitting every day is something that is really important to me.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Not because I should, I get to. I get to sit, I get to have 20 minutes where it's just like, timeout dude. What if you didn't have to do anything right now but be present? Just rest in your own presence. And so for me, like, that's a very important part of my day. Because the world wants a lot from us. There's a lot to this living. And so there's, you know, by the end of the day, I feel like drawn, you know, by all of these forces. You know, all these responsibilities, all these obligations. It's like, no, but if I sit in the morning, I'm never that far from the well. You know, that, that, that presence that comes from sustained practice.

• 25:45Dan Harris?

  I personally, I can have moments of, okay, this, this is great. But then another kind of wanting comes in, which is I don't want it to end.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, we come by it all so naturally.

• 26:01Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  You know, that, that's really important to me. In particular, what you said before about the judging mind. That's just like, ah dude, you're even going to fuck this up. Right? Here you are, you have this beautiful moment and you just want to squeeze every bit. You want to extract every bit of happiness out of it. And it's like, this is another kind of reaching or clinging, right? That grasping. So we could know that and we can soften it, right? Even after we grab it, it's like, oh, you know, we always talk about what, letting go and all this kind of language.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  It's like, what part of me lets go? I don't know. The part of me that wants to let go can't. Right? So it's like, hold on a second. Maybe, maybe wisdom lets go, having felt the pain of holding on. So it's not that the urge shouldn't arise. It's like, the Buddha's main question is, how could it be in the service of awakening? Whatever this is, this urge even to grasp, that can be in the service of awakening? When I feel the pain, the cost of that? I give you another example, and we're going back to the beach. So this was a couple of days ago. And, and I brought Valentino and some of his friends. He's 10 years old. They're jumping in the water.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  It's fucking unmitigated joy, right? They're just going buck wild. I literally was in the water with them and I, I got tumbled by a wave and I literally hit a dolphin. I, I touched a dolphin. So I go back up on the beach and I'm just like, oh my God. Can I? The mind started making up this story. Wow, look at what you're giving him that you never had. And it's partly true. There was love in it, but there was this other thought alongside it.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  You know, even like, man, I can't remember the last time I was that excited. And just like that, I wasn't with him anymore. His joy became a story about me. And I was, you know, something in me was like, bro, take a beat, look at him. And is it enough to see him happy? You know, is it enough that I'm here? And I could feel in real time, again, what takes me away from the moment or what delivers me back. Comparison takes me away. Narrative story takes me away. But here I was.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  I could see his face, the sound of the water, sand between my toes. This direct experience, it was enough to receive what was there. And I didn't need to find my own version of his joy. I could feel his. And so for that moment, it wasn't his joy over there and me standing on the beach watching. There was just joy. It was just kids on the, in the ocean. It was just, you know, toes, toes in the sand, you know? So I don't want to begrudge the journey away from that. Because homecoming doesn't mean shit without exile, you know? So it's like, oh, why am I like, why do I keep leaving the moment?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  It's like, I don't think why is the right question. It's like, how do I want to meet that? And how do I find my way back? Feet in the sand, here I am. Nothing to reach for, no story to make up. Can I let, can I receive this moment and let it be enough?

• 30:03Dan Harris?

  In terms of that judging mind, and I may have told you this story before, so I apologize if I'm being repetitive. But I was on a retreat years ago with somebody who I think is a mutual friend, meditation teacher named Spring Washam. And I was kicking my own ass for being distracted. And she said that a potentially useful little mantra from when you wake back up is, great job, welcome back.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  I like that. I like that.

• 30:35Dan Harris?

  It just, for me, it just changes the whole nature of that moment.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to assume you live in as, as a busy mind as I do, but very, very busy mind. So, early on, I really just turned the practice upside down. It was like, yo, bro, we're not here trying to force awareness to stay present. My only job is to welcome it back every time. You know, we're not forbidding awareness from wandering. We're welcoming it back every time it does. And when I keep my attention on that part of the experience, it's like an endless ticker tape parade.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back, you know? Because the mind wanders so much. Now, if I, if I'm in the camp that says, you know, I'm here to concentrate and I really want stillness and no, you know, I don't want the mind to wander. I'm not going to practice very long.

• 31:40Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  You know, it's impossible. It's just like one insult after another, one failure after another. And it's like, no, no, no. If you just pay attention to this other part of the experience, how much more will we come home if we knew we're going to be warmly welcomed?

• 31:59Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:01Dan Harris?

  You're disincentivizing waking up if every time you wake up, it's to a thrashing.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it reminds me of being at, like, let's say, our front door, right? And let's say, in our living room is the practice. In every 10 seconds, I find myself in the middle of the street. It's like, what the hell am I doing here? I didn't remember leaving. So then we're already back. But if we walk in the house, we're like, you know, look at this rug. Look at these curtains. These cabinets are so friggin' old, man. You know, if there's always criticism, it really de-incentivizes, I like that, this, the sense that we are welcome in the present moment, that it's enough in the present moment, right? I wake up to a feeling

• 32:49Speaker 01

  that things should be otherwise 100 times a day. That's just how my mind is organized. Like, oh, this could be a little better. I wish it was like this, whatever, right? The endless urge

• 33:03Speaker 01

  that things could be better. Like, that's the outgoing message in my mind. So I have to work with that, right? And it's like, oh, every time that belief arises, it sends me back to the present moment. It's like, oh, but what's actually here? Like, this is the, the nature of mind, at least this mind. But what's actually here? And then I'm usually surprised. I'm usually surprised to find myself okay or content or satisfied or happy. But it doesn't happen without that slowing down. And so when I say, don't begrudge the leaving, that's what I mean. It's like, if it could be in the service of awakening,

• 33:47Speaker 01

  it doesn't matter that the mind is super busy.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 33:53Dan Harris?

  It does. I think, I think it does. Just check it with you. That, it seems like you're, you've kind of co-opted the wanting mind so that when you notice, oh, you know, this hot dog could use some more mustard or whatever it is, that's a trigger, that's a mindfulness bell in it, in and of itself.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. Because we have to use something, so we use the breath a lot, right? Many of us use the breath. Why? It's not some magical key to enlightenment. It's like, no, it's constant. Oh, what else is constant? My desire for things to be otherwise. Okay, so if you're, you know, not good at ground balls, what's your baseball coach going to do? Hit your ground balls. So, you know, I don't know much about a mind that doesn't have much thought. So we have to work with what is true for us. So what's true for me is this urge. And then it's like, well, what do you do when that urge arises?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, I don't have to obey it. I can take a step back and see what's actually here. Do I need to reach? Is there something that needs to be done? Because that's really the main message from the mind. Something has to be done, Dan. What the fuck are you doing, bro? And it's just like, hold on a second. You know, the, the Dharma tells us, maybe something has to be felt. Maybe something has to be seen clearly, right? So it's a very different response.

• 35:24Dan Harris?

  That's beautiful. You've created these guided meditations for the, for the app, 10% with Dan Harris. One of the little takeaways, and this is just something simple that people can insert into their lives, is leaving one small gap alone for 10 seconds. What are you pointing out there?

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of what we've been talking about, right? Which is this almost compulsive quality of leaning towards some other moment. And so when that is present, we could say that's the opposite of freedom. When, when we're allowing that to run our lives, that urge. So what does it mean to slow down and to, to just settle back in our experience and see what's actually here before launching into the next thing? So my wife finds me regularly sitting in the car. I've pulled up, I've parked, but I'm not ready to go in the house. I'm not ready for all of that. I'm not ready to transition. If I'm walking up a couple flights of stairs, I'll just stop on the first flight.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  And I'm just sitting there. I'm kind of in this liminal space where I left my car and I'm like, haven't arrived to my meeting yet. And it's just like, hmm.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  It's so funny how fast we move. And it's unnecessary. And it kind of, I don't think what, why we're moving so fast is true. Like, you know, and like I said, there might be this primordial evolutionary benefit to, to not being in the back of the pack where it's dangerous, right? We want to keep moving. Well, you know, we got shit to do. And it's just like, yo, but if I can't take me with me,

• 37:20Speaker 01

  where am I going? You know? Why, why am I moving with such urgency if I don't have to? Sometimes you have to. Sometimes you're, you're late for a plane and you're doing the OJ through the airport. Like, I understand, I ain't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about this sense that if we slow down,

• 37:38Speaker 01

  it's not going to be good.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Like, what leads me to believe that? Like, really? Like, we can treat presence like it's our old dealer. You know what I mean? We're like ducking and dodging and it's just like, yo, bro. What are you doing right now, bro? Like?

• 37:59Dan Harris?

  I don't know if anybody who hasn't quit using drugs will fully understand that. But I remember those first few weeks after I stopped doing cocaine, getting texts from my dealers

• 38:11Dan Harris?

  and yours, and, and dodging them. And what you're saying is, let's not do that with the present moment.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it's funny how that urge or that sense of kind of like moving faster than we want to move. It's like, dude, the good news is you're close by. You can slow down anytime you want. It's like, well, can I? And it is a practice. It is a practice of like, letting there be gaps between all the doing and all the becoming.

• 38:41Dan Harris?

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• 39:26Dan Harris?

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• 40:03Dan Harris?

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• 40:48Dan Harris?

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• 41:21Dan Harris?

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• 42:36Dan Harris?

  Just to go back to what you were talking about, the 10-second pause, or whatever, however many seconds you want dealer's choice to be a little cute, different type of dealer. If I'm hearing you correctly, you will just, at random intervals through the day, walking up a set of stairs, pulling into your garage or driveway, you'll just stop and look around?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Yep. I'll stop and be with my present experience. Even if there's this urge to keep moving, it's like, oh, I can watch that arise and pass away. I can feel my feet on the floor. There's something about being grounded for me that it doesn't feel like a story. Like, it's like, no, but what's actually happening? Okay, what's not a concept? Okay, I can feel myself being supported by this chair.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  I can feel myself catching my breath. And like I said in the beginning, where else do we think contentment or satisfaction might live?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  It's not going to come through acquisition. We know that. We've seen it a thousand times. So it's like, well, maybe it's just born out of this willingness to be available to what's already here.

• 43:56Dan Harris?

  I had the great good fortune recently of having a very cool house guest. Once or twice a year, Joseph Goldstein, the legendary Dharma teacher, will come stay with us. He stays in our guest bedroom, which he calls the guru suite. And having him around kind of just throws into stark relief for me all of my neuroses.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:18Dan Harris?

  And just, you know, we were kind of moving, we had to do an event together, and then we had a little dinner at our house the next night. And there were a lot of moments of not doing anything. But all of that, having him around, just made it so clear to me, this habit of mind of trying to, what's next? What do I got to do next? How do I control what's happening right now? It's like a helicopter parent. And I did what I think you've been pointing at through this discussion, which is not use that as an excuse for self-flagellation, but as a moment to wake up with some interest and curiosity, like, whoa, okay, what is this about? How does it feel if I'm actually paying attention to it?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  That's the important thing. How does it feel when I'm paying attention to it? I like that, Dan. Because what is this about? Or why am I like this? And how long is it going to get me to where Joseph is? It's like, you can let all that shit go. Because, you know, we're talking about 40 years of three-month retreats. You know what I mean?

• 45:20Dan Harris?

  Like, 60 years.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  God damn, I gotta update that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, the comparing mind, you know, it's like, okay, how can this be in the service of awakening? What am I waking up to? Oh, wow. Sharp relief.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  What's the difference between his nervous system and mind, right? Yeah. How can that be in the service of awakening, bro?

• 45:47Dan Harris?

  Awakening is a big word. What are you pointing at exactly when you use it?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  I'm talking about waking up to the life that's right here, right? There's like story, narrative, this kind of rocky mythology, you know, we're training every day, we're going to get better, you know, la, la, la. I've never seen that deliver.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Not once, not never. And so it's like, okay. I like the way Gilfrand said, put it, he said, when it comes to enlightenment, it's not you that gets free. It's like you free everything else.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  So everything is already free, but our grasping makes it not so. So we look at like, oh, that moment of, you know, even this idea that, man, if I could just get my shit together like Joseph, right? You know? Yeah, so the sense of not needing to cling or grasp. And if I do find myself clinging or grasping, feeling the cost of that, because it hurts. Grasping hurts, clinging hurts, only every time.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  So it's like, yo, don't waste the suffering. We always talk about, don't waste the suffering. Like, you know, if you find yourself in a contracted state, feel that shit. Let it guide you, because you don't want to do it in the future, but it's here right now. So we're not just going to like, oh, no, no, I'm interested in, you know, awakening. Okay, how can I be more awake? It's like, this is still more striving. There's an experience right here of contraction. Can I be with that? You know, Marc Maron, he said, you know, wanting a positive experience is a negative experience. And accepting a negative experience is a positive experience?

• 47:42Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  So it's not the conditions. It's like, how can I be with this experience? You know, even if it's unpleasant, right? Even if it's that urge that we've been talking about, about moving faster than we want to, or, you know, being in this cycle of becoming, or saddling too much on the next experience.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  It's like, none of that has to be wasted.

• 48:08Dan Harris?

  Cycle of becoming, what does that mean?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  You know, we're always on our way somewhere. Dan, you're on your way somewhere, dude. You know, you made this huge transition, right? From news anchor to whatever the fuck this is.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Right? But there's got to be a lot of becoming in that, right? I've been in this thing of becoming, right? I'm going to become a meditation teacher, right? I became a father, you know? And it's like, there's always this, you know, that's what I love about practice, that even though the mind wants to turn this into the next thing I'm becoming, I'm becoming a good meditation teacher, or a good practitioner, good student, whatever. I think it's a great disservice, because it has a postponed arrival. Because that's when it's going to be dope, when I could sit like Joseph.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  When I could, when I can answer questions like him and give people options, no matter how stupid the question was.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  His intelligence makes the question smarter.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Every time you're just watching this dude in his eighties is just like,

• 49:25Speaker 01

  you know, so there can just be this, the comparing mind and the becoming and we're always on our way somewhere. And it's just like, do you know Ayakima, the German nun? You know that name?

• 49:36Dan Harris?

  I've heard of her.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So she's written some great books, but she's got a mantra that I use a lot. And I'm not much into mantra, but I'm into phrases. And she has this one that she used to use for walking meditation that I use in walking. And it's like, you take a step, nowhere to go. Take a step, nothing to get.

• 49:55Dan Harris?

  Oh, I like that.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Take a step, no one to be, right? Nowhere to go, nothing to get, no one to be. And I don't know, man, it just makes it panoramic for me, my awareness. Cause it's not shrouded in the story of Vinnie and, you know, this welfare kid that's on his way. It's like, dude, enough with the story and the narrative and the drama. And it's so shrouded in self. And so when I'm able to feel into that, that this is not some becoming story. I'm not on my way anywhere.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Then, then there's a simple experience waiting for me and that feels a lot more awake to come back to that word. Awake to what's actually in front of me instead of this sisyphus, you know, story of becoming.

• 50:49Dan Harris?

  Nowhere to go, nothing to get, no one to be. I like that.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Just as, just as a moment, we're not talking about like, okay, yeah, there's nothing to do. There's nothing to get in your whole life. No, no, no, there's shit to do and this shit, you know? But does my practice has the same laundry list of, you know, checkpoints. Okay. You got this first two jhanas. Okay. You did a 10 day. Okay. How about a six week? Okay. You know, and it's just like, we don't want to do that with the practice. This is the one place we get to say, tea, bro. On all the becoming, on all the getting, on all the acquisition and transaction.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  You know, is there one place in our life that we get to rest in exactly how it is?

• 51:33Dan Harris?

  There's a phrase that I probably picked up from Joseph, I don't know, somewhere. But when I'm doing my walking meditation, two words, just this.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Hmm. That's nice.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that. And where does it deliver you like, you know, like when you feel into that? When you can actually taste the resonance of that, what's the effect?

• 51:55Dan Harris?

  It can land in different ways, depending on the moment.

• 52:00Dan Harris?

  It can be just a simple bringing it back to whatever's right here. But it can also be just a tiny little ego death, like an extinguishing moment of the Dan story. Because there's no, there's no Dan to be found if you're looking in, in that, in that way. Not with like some sort of aggressive microscope. It's like, yeah, okay. Well, just this. Yeah. Well, what's here when I say that? Or another way that Joseph sometimes phrases it is what's being known?

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:34Dan Harris?

  And then by, by what?

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:36Dan Harris?

  Known by what?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, I'm not a religious person. I really don't like religion.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  And I'm really glad that the Buddha didn't ask us to have faith.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  You know, especially in the beginning, right? You might be able to have faith in your teachers, but like in regards to like the practice, it's like the Buddha had faith in us first. Right? He said, you could know this for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Come and see for yourself. And I love that. I love that. We don't have to sign on. We don't have to join. We don't have to become members. It's a very, very simple thing. And I don't know, it feels like it's a good life every time I let it be. You know?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Every single time, you know? And like, you know, I get asked about the practice. It's like, well, what's the practice? Like, well, you know, paying attention to how we relate to experience. Yeah. Pretty simple.

• 53:42Dan Harris?

  It's a good life every time I let it be.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:45Dan Harris?

  Is that an off the dome coinage right there? Cause that's really good.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  I've been saying it for years because it's a really good way to remember that I'm the common denominator here, not the conditions of my life, right? You know, that I get to rest in that fundamental okayness whenever it comes to mind. You know, or most, you know, mostly, you know?

• 54:11Dan Harris?

  We've been talking about wanting the, and we've been talking about the Buddha and the Buddha's promise was that there was an end of craving, an end of wanting. At your, where you're at in your practice right now, like, how does that promise land for you?

• 54:26Speaker 01

  I think I'm still in the suffering part.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I think I'm still in the like, feeling the cost of wanting, right? You know, one of my teachers said, you know, all wanting really wants is the end of wanting. Right? And it's like, yeah. Yeah. It's not the thing that delivers the satisfaction or the release. It's just that you stop wanting for a moment. So I've felt that, you know, around material things or even around

• 54:58Speaker 01

  ways that I wish I was different, right?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  But I haven't seen the end of wanting, even though, and I say this, that most of my, any kind of liberation that I have found has come through subtraction.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  It's not come through addition. It hasn't come through, oh, more and more. Right? That it's, it's like my life has become much simpler. And so,

• 55:29Speaker 01

  yeah, I don't feel like I'm waiting for the next invitation and then it's going to be on and then it's going to really go. It doesn't feel like that anymore. It's like, no. I, 10 years ago, I went through a lot, some crazy shit where my life kind of imploded. And I just got real simple and it was like renunciate complexity. This is all gotten too complex. So just renunciate complexity. And I made decisions for the last almost 10 years, based on that, that wisdom. You know, for myself, like this is where I'm at in my, this chapter in my life, renunciate complexity. And when things are simple, they're dharmic. And when things are complicated, it's mind, you know? And I know that's a bit of a reduction, but.

• 56:14Dan Harris?

  Have you been able to keep up that renunciation?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Mostly, I mean, I get, you know, I like shiny things too, you know what I mean? I gotta, I gotta fucking sheepskin in the hot tub, you know what I mean? Like I like pleasure, you know? So it hasn't been adhered to with a monastic discipline. Don't get me wrong. But many, many times when there is a promise of more, I don't take it.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't say yes to many things anymore because everything is already enough. Right? Like, and I don't mean like I've, I'm on the other side of some veil. Come on in, the water's warm. I'm not trying to, you know, assert that. I just mean like finding the right work balance and family. And then, you know, my health, like my homeboy was here last night. And then, you know, he's like, yo, what do you want to do for your 60th? And I was like, I don't really pay much attention to numbers and birthdays. And he was like, no, dude, this is like the last big one you can probably enjoy. Right? Like, you know, at 70, you're going to be in a, if you make it, you'll be in a whole different situation physically and whatever, right?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  At least his ideas about what 70 meant. And I was like, wow, that's, that's an interesting thought. So, you know, this week, here I am, like just back from travels and leading retreats. And I've been in the ocean every day because I'm like, I just don't know how many summer days I have left.

• 57:52Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Not only this year, but like in this life. So it like inspires me to kind of show up for my life, you know? And not just kind of, you know, get more done, but like actually enjoy what's here.

• 58:09Dan Harris?

  Pre-game is over for sure. Yeah. I mean, I try to remind myself all of the time. Actually, speaking of which, I wanted to ask you, because I think it was as a result of talking to you almost two years ago, right here on this show, who got me to make a practice out of what the Buddha calls the five daily remembrances, which he, just for people who are unfamiliar with it, recommended you do twice a day, which I now do right before, right when I wake up and right before I go to bed because of you, Vinnie. I say this body's of the nature to get sick, to get old, to die. Someday I'll lose everything and everybody I hold dear. And in this atmosphere of relentless change, my only real possessions are my actions.

• 58:53Dan Harris?

  And I believe has, you know, that in conjunction with just getting older has put me, I think, in closer touch with, you know, how, how short this whole thing is.

• 59:08Dan Harris?

  It's come with some sadness, you know? Like I think I feel, I feel it's not all like awesome to have this increasing insalience.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  But we are in touch with reality, right? Like, you know, it's, it is, there is some sadness in it. And if we can find like, well, what is the actual sadness connected to?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Sometimes for me, it's connected to how much I've missed. Right? Like it's just like, oh shit dude, you've been living like this is never going to end. And you're sorely mistaken, right? And so, you know, we can kind of judge ourselves a bit. And that can bring some grief about like, oh my God, I'm waking up to this and my kid is 10 and what? You know, like where have I been? How long have I been out? Right? So there can be that kind of.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  That kind of response. But I think the remembrances for me, particularly the last one, which is the hardest one for most people to deal with, that my actions are my only true belongings. There's something about that that just lands us so empowering to me.

• 1:00:35Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  You know, something about it that just feels like the cat told it straight. This shit is undisputed for 2,600 years. It's okay to feel sad, you know?

• 1:00:48Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  It's okay, especially if it inspires us to be present instead of performance evaluation of where I've been for the last 60, you know?

• 1:00:59Dan Harris?

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• 1:01:44Dan Harris?

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• 1:02:25Dan Harris?

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• 1:03:11Dan Harris?

  Looking at these blunt facts straight in the eye twice a day, which, and it accumulates force over time, as I've, at least in my experience.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:23Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I kind of miss not thinking about this shit.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. We want that, what is it, the blue pill?

• 1:03:30Dan Harris?

  I can't remember.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  You know, of course, you know, delusion, you know, sometimes we want to choose that, right? I do. I don't always want to look at reality. It's like, oh, okay, what part of my personality is that? It's like, ah, the one that feels like I'm already cynical enough? You know what I mean? Like, I've already, like, I've always felt like a heavy-hearted kid and then a human being, right? And it's like, oh, man, am I using this to fortify some identity? Or is this just, can I just be with these truths, you know, without making them bigger or smaller?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  I guess all the hospice work and all the year-to-live stuff, it's just been time after time of seeing, brother, there are many, many people, like, taking their last breath that wish they were where you are. So keep remembering that there's going to be a time, you know, because there's a sense that we're just running the clock out. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I'm just going to keep, keep doing this, you know, until I can't do it no more. And there's this other aspect of like, yeah, the fleeting nature of experience that is right here in front of us, you know?

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  And it's just so easy to slip to our fingers or wish that it were otherwise. And I don't know, the five remembrances for me are just like, nah, man, I want to be mature about this. I want to look at it clear-eyed, even if it brings some sadness. I could do sadness. I know sadness, you know? And we go through different chapters. As you, if you've done it for a couple of years, you'll notice different things that, you know, maybe it's the first one or the third one that kind of comes alive. Have you noticed that in your practice in these last couple of years?

• 1:05:36Dan Harris?

  The one that's just stayed alive for me really is, I'm going to die, you know? I haven't gotten past that.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  You don't give a shit about your loved ones. You're just like, whatever, bro. You know what I mean? I don't even like these people that much, you know?

• 1:05:49Dan Harris?

  I just, that's when I lose my loved ones, if I don't lose them before. So it's all kind of part and parcel.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Have you been in close proximity to death?

• 1:06:00Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I was a hospice volunteer for many years myself, so.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:06:05Dan Harris?

  And I've seen family members die, and yes. And I was a combat correspondent for a long time. So yes, I've seen quite a bit. So I was familiar with the truth of death, but not as intimate as I now am, thanks to you.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I hope it's inward and onward leading. You know what I mean?

• 1:06:24Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  They're certainly not meant to bum us out, you know?

• 1:06:27Dan Harris?

  No. That's not the, that's, I don't want to give the impression that it's the only effect. I think one of the major effects is that I have, as you just said, I kind of have the 85-year-old version of me, if I make it that long, sending me letters, like, you know what I would give to be back in this situation where I'm talking to my son and he's still 11 and he wants to tell me about, well, his current rankings of the top five football teams? And I'm bored, but I know, like, let me wake back up. That's a huge impact. But there's also a kind of pervasive poignancy slash sadness that I feel as well. And, yeah, I don't think you get one without the other.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I mean, I haven't been able to find one, you know, anywhere where you can buy a single side of a piece of paper, you know? Not yet. Hey, I've been looking, you know? I really just want the good shit, you know?

• 1:07:23Dan Harris?

  It's always such a pleasure to talk to you, Vinnie. I mean, and I'm always really grateful to you for making time for it and also for, for making these meditations for the, for the app. I have a few other questions I want to ask you before I let you go, but on the subject of wanting and anything else you want to say, or you feel like we covered it?

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  It's not as hard as you think.

• 1:07:46Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  You know, the mind makes, mind makes slowing down really hard. And so we have to trust a different wisdom. And I think that's maybe in our bellies or in our bodies or whatever it is to say, okay, I'm here with you, you know? And I know it's scary to slow down, but it's not as scary as we make it out in our minds. And it doesn't take as long either. So, you know, all of these reasons that we have for keeping it moving, you know, when we start calling bullshit on that and, you know, and actually arrive in our experience, we're usually quite surprised by what's waiting for us.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  You know, it's not some boogeyman that's been like, kind of on our ass, you know? It's like, oh, wow. Wow. Yeah.

• 1:08:39Dan Harris?

  Just for the audience, if you haven't heard about this, we've been playing with most of our episodes of doing this, this little segment where we'll see if it works. And what's good, we've basically been asking guests, like, is there a TV show, movie, book, record, anything that you're digging right now that you would recommend? And then I'll, I'll give you one from my side.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, all right. Yeah, man. I think They Cloned Tyrone was like one of the best movies I've seen in the last 10 years. Like, when that came out, I was like, They Cloned Tyrone? You know, Jamie Foxx, you know, it's got a whole bunch of people in it. Did you see that?

• 1:09:20Dan Harris?

  No, I've never heard of it. I feel like so culturally illiterate.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's kind of, I don't know. I think we could say it's like Afrofuturism a bit, right? Where we have these filmmakers making these films that wouldn't occur to me, right? But when I watch it, I'm just like, oh, my God, all of these different voices, all of these different perspectives. And I found it really compelling and just funny, you know? It's like a romp where it's just like, I don't know what's going to happen next here. Yeah.

• 1:09:58Dan Harris?

  That has to be one of the greatest movie titles of all time. The Clone Tyrone. That is phenomenal. Can I show that to my son?

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Hmm, hmm, let me see. It's a bit violent. There's some violence in it, but it doesn't. It's kind of strange the way it starts. It looks like a gang movie or something. You're like, whoa, this is intense. And then all of a sudden, it becomes very surreal and absurdist. And you're like, oh, my God. So I don't know if you're watching stuff like that with your boy. I haven't turned my boy on to it yet because he's super sensitive, but I hope to soon.

• 1:10:36Dan Harris?

  All right, I'll take a look. Okay, so there's a record that came out the other day that I really like. It's by, I'm, since age 15, just a diehard indie rock, underground, punk fan. And there's, there are a ton of great bands coming out of, coming out of Australia these days. And there's a band called Old Mervs, E-M-E-R-V-S, Old Mervs. And they've got a new record. I forgot the name of it, but it's really good, super catchy. It's not, it's not overly aggro like some of the stuff I listen to. Very, very catchy, very, very good.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  When's the last time you listened to something aggressive, bro? And what was it?

• 1:11:20Dan Harris?

  Oh, yesterday, working out. I was, I was listening to my heavy rotation list, which was filled with super aggro stuff. Turnstile, I love. They, a couple of weeks ago, they were on SNL.

• 1:11:35Dan Harris?

  Who else do I like? Military Gun, which I, that's not a band name that I fully understand, but I think they're really good. How about you?

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, my, my taste is wide, as many of us is. You know, I listen to a lot of, you know, old Coltrane, and I listen to a lot of metal, and I listen to some punk. You know, mostly like Bad Brains. You know, it's all older stuff, you know, because that's when I was that age. You know what I mean? It was just like, oh, my God, look at this expression, you know? And so there's still a part of me that maybe that kind of, the reminiscent part of that chapter in the 90s or 80s or whatever it was, you know, it just brings me back. So music has that ability to bring me back. And it's funny because I'm, I think I'm very impacted by music.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  I could listen to Big Boy and all of a sudden I'm feeling like, yeah, you should shoot that dude. It's just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you talking about? You know, I could get really into the music. It's just like, bro, I'm a total non-harming person, but I really get taken into the music, you know?

• 1:12:47Dan Harris?

  That's amazing. Just finally, before I actually let you go here. So I mentioned that you're doing some meditations on the app and you'll be doing some live stuff with us on Tuesdays. And you've got this course that you do every year with Spirit Rock Meditation Center. It's called A Year to Live. Now would be the time to sign up. It starts in January. It sells out every year. Check it out at spiritrock.org. And I'll put the link in the show notes if you're not like, holding a pen right now. And Vinny, thank you again. Always great to see you.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude. Great pleasure to be with you, man. To be continued.

• 1:13:26Dan Harris?

  Thank you very much for watching and/or listening today. Really appreciate it. If you want to hook me up, and I know podcast hosts ask for this all the time, but there's a reason why we ask for it because it's genuinely helpful. If you want to hook me and my team up, follow us and like us and rate us and review us on whatever platform you're consuming the show right now. Share with your friends. Follow us on social media. It all genuinely helps us grow. Now on to the credits. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson, Barissa Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere, David Hart, and Hayden Broome. Post-production is handled by the great folks over at Greenhorn Creative.

• 1:14:07Dan Harris?

  And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Thank you for listening. Deuces.

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