Jimmy Carr: “Men half-arse things!” My thoughts on feminism, parenting, and success

What would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail? It’s a question comedian Jimmy Carr reckons will help direct your life path. In this chat with Fearne, Jimmy explains how he strives for greatness for himself, without falling into the trap of comparing himself to others. He talks about how to define success for yourself, why talent without hard work means very little, and why he doesn’t fear cancel culture. Jimmy also explains why feminism still doesn’t really serve mothers and matriarchs, and why you’ll never hear him say he’s “babysitting” his own kids. Plus, do all comedians have a bit of a troubled childhood...? Jimmy chats about how his anxieties fuel his jokes. Get your tickets for Jimmy’s Laughs Funny tour at the London Palladium! https://www.jimmycarr.com/tour-dates/london/ If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Bjorn Natthiko Lindeblad https://pod.fo/e/10d79a Joel Dommet https://pod.fo/e/2eb8d0 Mo Gilligan https://pod.fo/e/2d3d77 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that knows life experience is what builds character. Today, I'm chatting to Jimmy Carr.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  There's teachable and unteachable lessons. There's things you can tell your kids, like if you have the birds and the bees conversation, yeah, you can tell them what an erection is and tell them all the things they can do that are fun, great, lovely. There's unteachable stuff. You getting that degree won't make you feel more. If you weren't enough without it, you won't be enough with it. But no one can tell you buying a Rolex and a Ferrari won't make you happy. You have to buy a Rolex and Ferrari and go, yeah, it didn't make me. It's like, it's not the destination, it's the journey. It's not even the journey, it's actually who you become on the journey.

• 1:12Fearne Cotton?

  So you find me at my kitchen table, if that's why it sounds like I'm not in a studio. It's because I'm at home with the cats and the tortoise, kids are at school and I'm just getting admin done. I love it. I love getting, I love having a list and just ticking stuff off. I mean, I am, I'm slightly knackered today, as I'm sure you are too, but we crack on, don't we? We just bloody get on with it. I did have a bit of respite last night, just a really lovely overdue dinner with one of my best mates who moved to America about 15 years ago and she came back over with her kids and our kids hadn't met. So it was so special to have all four kids together and the sort of to watch my kids

• 1:57Fearne Cotton?

  with eyes wide, listening to their little American accents, because obviously my daughter Honey watches a lot of American YouTube, so to have real life American kids at the dinner table was something else. But it just reminded me, not that I need reminding, but... I guess you can do in certain times where life is stressful or life is full on and relentless, that friends are everything. Honestly, I left that restaurant with a pep in my step. I almost skipped home and I just said to my kids, thank you so much for coming to dinner. Because, you know, they'd never met these kids before, they were a little bit nervous. I was like, you've got one very happy mum now. I honestly was just bouncing, like buzzing with joy.

• 2:42Fearne Cotton?

  It really filled me up. So if you're feeling stressed out, pissed off, knackered, do remember to put time in for you and your mates just to have a good old goss and a giggle because it is, it's so needed. It's everything. It's honestly sorted me right out. So shall we get on with it? You'll probably remember last year that I could not stop talking about how much I loved Last One Laughing on Amazon Prime. It is the greatest TV show on telly. So I'm obviously over the moon that it's back with Jimmy Carr at the helm. This show for me is just pure enjoyment, something me and the kids can watch together. Just laugh and laugh until our heads pop off.

• 3:24Fearne Cotton?

  I love it when you get that rolling laughter and you're all kind of like, you're laughing so much that no noise is coming out. That is my favourite. So I was so chuffed to have Jimmy on the podcast. We talk about a hell of a lot. We talk about raising kids and raising teenagers and some other subjects that you'll hear along the way, uh, attached to that. We also talk about what fuels ambition and drive. I was very interested to quiz Jimmy on that one because he's very ambitious. You know, he still tours relentlessly. But well, you'll find out why he does it. You're here in a moment. Also, his take on feminism, mothers and older women, as well as cancel culture.

• 4:06Fearne Cotton?

  This is a big one because it is a topic that constantly needs unpicking, dissecting, discussing. And he does so very articulately. Also anxiety and panic attacks too.

• 4:22Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 4:26Fearne Cotton?

  And this is Boots Off.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 4:37Fearne Cotton?

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 4:47Fearne Cotton?

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 4:52Fearne Cotton?

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 4:59Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's crack on. This is the show.

• 5:23Fearne Cotton?

  Jimmy Carr, how are you?

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Rich and famous.

• 5:27Fearne Cotton?

  Just stating the facts.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you meant to say. Yeah, I'm great. I'm really good.

• 5:31Fearne Cotton?

  Good. Well, I think it's nice to do a genuine check in. Like, are you feeling happy today?

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I'm very, I'm a pretty positive sort of guy.

• 5:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  I sort of think you've got your My Factory settings are pretty good in terms of like, the average day, I'm pretty happy. But it's that thing where I work on it, I think.

• 5:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I sort of think gratitude is the mother of all virtues.

• 5:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  And that thing of like, what can change your disposition? And that old kind of thing of like, disposition is more important than position. Like where you are in life doesn't dictate how happy you are. It's your disposition. And the only thing that seems to shift it is constant kind of gratitude of like, I'm such a lucky boy.

• 6:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm alive. I'm here. I'm healthy. I'm doing all right.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  What are the chances?

• 6:13Fearne Cotton?

  What are the, what are the chances?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that a bunch of random atoms coalesce into a form that can conceive its own consciousness for 4,000 weeks and then disappears again? It seems unlikely, but here we are.

• 6:25Fearne Cotton?

  Let's be grateful for that.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, amazing, right?

• 6:28Fearne Cotton?

  It's a good thing. I'll tell you what's making my, if we're looking at sort of baseline happiness, what's really helping tip me into actual joy is Last One Laughing.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  It's good, right? It's a good show. I feel like I can come on here and go, genuinely, it's a good show. Watch it. It's really funny.

• 6:44Fearne Cotton?

  Which makes life easier.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but when you've like got a stand up special out, you kind of go, oh yeah, you know, I did my best. I hope you liked it. Thank you. And you've got to be a bit kind of self deprecating. But it's not me. It's like everyone in it is like a killer.

• 6:58Fearne Cotton?

  It's so great.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  It's such a fun, simple idea of like, it's also like the antidote for what's going on in the world right now.

• 7:05Fearne Cotton?

  Completely. And we need that. We need laughter.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. It's also that thing of like, it's together. It's like a group of people sort of stuck together.

• 7:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Doing this kind of silly task, but it's really lovely to see people, because stand ups often, I always loved that thing my friend Alan Haves used to say, we're out, out for ourselves, but in it together. And it's that thing of like, we're slightly non-fungible comics. It's like actors, sometimes when you get an actor, like they're really competitive with other actors. Because only one of them can be James Bond in the movie. Whereas comics like Bob Mortimer can't do what Ramesh does, can't do what Alan Carr does, can't do what Diane Morgan does, can't do, you know, it's all, it's, it's, we're all very kind of escape competition through authenticity.

• 7:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, you've introduced me to Sam Campbell too, who is just someone that has given me a dopamine hit every time I've watched it.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  He's kind of, kind of crazy. He's got, he's got a sitcom coming out, I think, on Channel Four.

• 7:58Fearne Cotton?

  In the best way.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Well, he really is. He's really kind of, it's just amazing surrealist.

• 8:03Fearne Cotton?

  So great.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  It feels like he's kind of on, he fits with Bob Mortimer.

• 8:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  And kind of Vic Reeves and also, yeah, and Harry Hill. That kind of school of surreal, oh, my mind never would have gone there.

• 8:14Fearne Cotton?

  Never, never. Some of the lines he's come out with, I mean, we have been howling. I'm watching it with my kids. I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not, but I'm letting them completely watch it.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  I think it is. I think it's really appropriate to watch with kids. I think Cat's Countdown as well is another show that people watch. It's got quite a broad, I mean, some of it's a bit bawdy, but you've sort of got to go, yeah, it's all right. They're going to be looking at that online anyway.

• 8:34Fearne Cotton?

  Correct.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  But that joyful experience of like watching together as a family.

• 8:38Fearne Cotton?

  There's literally two shows. They'll watch Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here and Last One Laughing. We did series one. We're loving series two. And I've heard you say, I can't think which podcast it was, but. Talking about how comedy is an amazing conversation starter, especially if you go and watch a live stand up show, and that has definitely been the case each time me and my kids have sat down to watch Last One Laughing.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  I've got a theory about this, on the, what comedy's role is in society. You know that thing of like, people talk about politics, the overton window, very highfalutin term for what's the most left wing thing you could say in a polite dinner party, and what's the most right wing thing you could say at a polite dinner party? That's the overton window of conversation, what's acceptable.

• 9:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  And I think comedy, if it does anything, is it expands the conversational overton window. So if you see a great comic on stage afterwards, like, you get your value from buying the ticket and laughing at the show, but then afterwards you go for a drink.

• 9:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  And you find yourself talking about, I don't know, intimacy in a different way.

• 9:34Fearne Cotton?

  Completely.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  I'm not even saying that edgy comedy pushes it further. It's even like, very mainstream comedy that's like observational, kind of, you're allowed to kind of look at the quirks of life, kind of gives you permission to go a little bit further in your language.

• 9:47Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. I mean, the question that came out of last week's episode from one of my kids was, what's an erection? So that was an interesting conversation starter.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Well, you've got it, it's, yeah, the, the best description I've ever heard was an erection, nature's thumbs up.

• 10:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hahaha.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  That's like, that is a, oh, that's a scoutmaster that's probably in prison now.

• 10:06Fearne Cotton?

  I wish I'd replied with that, that's so good.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  What's an erection? It's nature's thumbs up.

• 10:10Fearne Cotton?

  It's just so brilliant.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  What a great line.

• 10:12Fearne Cotton?

  It's a brilliant line.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:14Fearne Cotton?

  But yeah, we had, I mean, we had a good chat, and I'm gonna do proper sex ed with them at home, because I haven't done it yet. I was sort of relying on the school doing it exclusively, and I actually think I've got to be a proper grown up.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Right, and have the, have the conversation.

• 10:27Fearne Cotton?

  The chat. A couple of my friends have done it with their kids.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Okay, so give me, give me, let's practise, you don't want to go in, you don't want to go in.

• 10:34Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I'm gonna use Adam Kay's book, that's what I'm gonna do, I'm not gonna wing this one, this is not one to wing. I'm gonna laugh, and that's not helpful when I'm delivering this news to my kids.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:45Fearne Cotton?

  I know what the reaction will be from my daughter.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Have you, oh, you've got boys or girls?

• 10:49Fearne Cotton?

  One of each.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  You've got one of each?

• 10:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Um, well, really, what are they, teens?

• 10:54Fearne Cotton?

  I've got a ten and a thirteen.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  I don't know, like, there's, there's really good stuff out there, though.

• 10:58Fearne Cotton?

  Adam Kay's book, I think, is a, is an award-winning sex ed, well, part of his, one of his books.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:04Fearne Cotton?

  It's a good one.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  And then Scott Galloway's got a really good new book about, uh, on being a man. And Louise Perry's got a brilliant book, The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

• 11:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, yes.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  I think it's a fantastic, and she wrote a teen version of it.

• 11:15Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  So she wrote the book and it was a hit, and then she did like a teen version. I always think it's that thing of like, you go, having that around, I think for everyone to read that.

• 11:23Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  I think that boys should read that too and kind of go, oh yeah, this is, we're, we're very different in our, in our makeup. But it's, I don't know, that, that thing of like being a teenager is just so tough, cause if you had to define what being a teenager is, it's being uncomfortable in your own skin.

• 11:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  And it's also, even when you've been through that, I'm a great believer in the fact there's a second big shift that happens mid twenties.

• 11:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree. I've heard you talk about this. I completely agree.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  It's like twenty four for girls, twenty five for boys, roughly, I mean.

• 11:50Fearne Cotton?

  And some of it's about your brain, actually, it's, it's now fully formed. So you're then going, oh, right, who the, what's going on? Who am I?

• 11:57Speaker 02

  It, I, I found it like an awakening mid twenties of like, okay, what's going on? What, what, what do I want to do? And what's, what's success in life? I mean, you know, we're on, you know, happiness, is that thing of like going, well, what is happiness?

• 12:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  What am I, what am I aiming for here? What's my, what's my metric? Because, you know, in life, you've got resume points and everything up until like twenty, twenty four, twenty five, whatever, the end of university, the end of education. Is like, it's like a, it's like a, a video game, right? It's like there's levels and you get to the big boss and you can do well or badly, but it's, it's preordained. And then twenty five on, it's self-assignment.

• 12:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  And that's, it's suddenly like terrifying, like what, what, what's important to me?

• 12:39Fearne Cotton?

  But it is also not without sort of societal conditions that are, you know, imposed upon us, that we're told if you. Get married, have kids, get the right car, whatever, then you'll be happy. And you have to sort of negate all of that and work that out, I think. Maybe not even in your twenties, that's probably further down the line, actually.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, my friend Chris Williamson's really good on this, like, chatting about teachable and unteachable lessons.

• 13:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  There's things you can tell your kids, like if you have the birds and the bees conversation, yeah, you can tell them what an erection is and.

• 13:08Fearne Cotton?

  Nature's thumbs up.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Nature's thumbs up, and you can talk about sex and you can tell them all the things they can do that are fun, great, lovely. There's unteachable stuff, there's like, okay, you getting that degree won't make you feel more. If you weren't enough without it, you won't be enough with it.

• 13:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  And, but no one can tell you buying a Rolex and a Ferrari won't make you happy. You have to buy a Rolex and Ferrari and go, yeah, it didn't make me, I'm still the same guy.

• 13:33Fearne Cotton?

  Four seconds of happiness and then still got all your problems.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Well, here's the terrible thing, having stuff isn't fun, getting stuff is fun. It's the, that, that kind of, it's not even the journey, it's like, it's not the destination, it's the journey. It's actually who you become on the journey.

• 13:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  That's the thing, there's, but, but again, I think that's an unteachable lesson. I think that's like, that's life, you have to kind of experience that and then you kind of, it's lovely. There's this, it's that thing of like, I don't know, with kids, it's like, it's two very important days, right? Two most important days in your life, the day you're born and the day you find out why.

• 14:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  And finding out why is like, it's so difficult to negotiate.

• 14:11Fearne Cotton?

  I think I'm only figuring that out now.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Well, this feels much more authentically you, this podcast.

• 14:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Feels like, okay, this is what matters to you, these are the, these are the things that you think about.

• 14:22Fearne Cotton?

  Completely.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  You've been through the wringer, you kind of, and it's kind of, I don't know, what's, what's the positive of that? It means you can have really interesting conversations.

• 14:29Fearne Cotton?

  I wouldn't be doing any of it if I hadn't felt like dog shit, I wouldn't be doing any of this now. But I think even, I've been doing this podcast and the other bits we do with Happy Place for about eight years. But I would say only in the last two, do I feel like I can sit here in the closest possible version to the one that you would see if we went for a coffee at Gail's down the road. Like, it's the same, whereas before, I don't think I felt that was safe necessarily.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's, I mean, it's to that point, you can't have a easy life and a great character.

• 14:59Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, that's a good point.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  You've got, you've got to have gone through something, you have to have some experience in life, otherwise you've got nothing to.

• 15:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yep, exactly. Hey, I'm very interested, talking to you specifically about what we've just touched on in terms of.

• 15:15Fearne Cotton?

  What we think's going to bring us happiness and what we learn eventually actually is meaningful. Because some would say, right, if you know, and this applies to me, to you, to anyone that is ambitious, I'm deeply ambitious, I'm not afraid to say that, I think women sometimes feel it's a sort of uncouth thing to admit, but I'm very ambitious, I've got a hell of a lot of drive behind me to do better, be better, be curious about what the limits are. But I'm not necessarily tying that into my overall happiness, I know I get a kick out of it, and I have to maybe even watch that, but with you and your ambition, how much of it is still driven by, or if at all, if I am the biggest comedian in the world, or

• 15:59Fearne Cotton?

  get the biggest laugh tonight on stage, then I'll be okay?

• 16:02Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I don't think, I think comparison is the thief of joy. The idea of like, if I'm the biggest comedian in the world, what, better than the others? Well, no, I, I, I think there's no, there's nothing in that.

• 16:13Fearne Cotton?

  Or the best you can be, does that interest you?

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Better than me last year, that interests me. Better than someone else, not my business. I have kind of that, that idea of like going, there's a difference between jealousy and envy.

• 16:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  I think jealousy's kind of ugly, and it's what you, you don't want someone to have something. And envy is interesting, because it tells you what you want.

• 16:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's motivating.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  What, what you want, oh, you want that thing, or he's playing that room, I'd love to play that room. Okay, well, book it and try and sell some tickets then.

• 16:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  That's the, that thing of like, it gives you a bit of direction, I think is totally valid. I think, and you don't have to hate where you are to want to get somewhere better.

• 16:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  To want to do more.

• 16:49Fearne Cotton?

  Agreed.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  But that, that thing of like, you know, ambition is kind of, I suppose the British are a bit, we're a bit uptight about it.

• 16:55Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  That kind of tall poppy syndrome.

• 16:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, people don't like it. In America, it's rules.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  It's one of my favourite questions. You've got two, two questions I really like. I know you're doing the interview, but here's my two questions. What would you do if you couldn't fail?

• 17:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I like that one.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Like, what would you do if you could not fail? It's an absolute sure shot, and it's not like a question to answer, but it's a really interesting thing, you know, if people are listening with their partner, with their friends, of going, throwing that out there, what would you do if you couldn't? Fail, what would you do if you couldn't be punished?

• 17:27Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Very revealing.

• 17:29Fearne Cotton?

  That is revealing.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  And it's it's like, it's also a conversation with yourself because sometimes I think the ambition, like you're you're, you don't even want to give it a name. You don't even want to sort of say that actually, I want to be an actor, or actually, I want to write a script, or actually, you know, whatever that thing is, you're you're scared to admit it because then you're opening yourself up to to failure.

• 17:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  It's those questions that you can kind of ask, you know, what do you want to do? What are you willing to sacrifice? The amount of that'll tell you how you're gonna be.

• 17:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, I reckon I'm sort of weirdly, I don't know why, but I've always been pretty good at going, I want to do that thing. And I don't even think about the failure bit. And at times I failed massively and I failed publicly. And I, and it's not been fun, but I've managed to ride it out and I'm pretty good at picking myself back up again. But I think that's because I know I actually love the doing bit so much. There's nothing else I want to do. I love doing this. I like painting a lot. I love painting, but that's not massively sort of a career option for me. But with this, I think the loving it outweighs the risk of failure so massively that I'm almost blinkered.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's also, it's, I think it's very interesting that thing of like, what metric in life are you using? What's the thing that you're measuring against? What's important? And that thing of getting resume points or eulogy points.

• 18:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  What's the, what's the important thing? We spend our lives, you know, collecting stuff to impress people that couldn't care less.

• 18:55Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. It's bonkers.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:57Fearne Cotton?

  So what, what would you say, is there one defining driving force for you? You know, you're one of the comedians that still tours more than anybody else. You know, you are big on getting out there, doing live shows. You've got, is it your last few live shows at the Palladium later on in the year this year?

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I basically finished the UK now. I'll just, I'll record the special here. Because I like the Palladium, I like that room.

• 19:16Fearne Cotton?

  It's an amazing, amazing place. But what's driving you to keep going out there touring? You know, you could never work again and be fine.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think that thing about going, I really like the work. I really like the idea of putting a show together and writing jokes and going out there. I've also, I'm very lucky that every night is different. Because I Britain, I write shows and I write the jokes and the jokes are the same. But then the audience interaction stuff is different every single night. So and we film that and we put it out, but it's that for me is the fun bit.

• 19:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  It's almost like asking a magician to do real magic. It's like you're asking me to just be funny, just off the cuff for half an hour a night with this audience. And make it feel like it's special, make it feel like this could only happen in this room right now. So it's like, it's almost like you have an in-joke with the audience.

• 20:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love those bits. I've been loving watching them on your Instagram feed. And I think that has been such a huge evolution for your comedy. And I've heard you talk about this before, that you knew you'd wanted to sort of change your style slightly or change how you go about using comedy in your work. But that audience interaction bit, I think, is the purest example. There was very much on my algorithm, a clip that kept getting fed to me of you being asked what you think about menopause. And I was like, oh, what's, what's Jimmy gonna say here? And you did this amazing feminist rant about how older women are the cornerstone of society.

• 20:43Fearne Cotton?

  And you were passionate about it. And I thought, I don't think you would have said that 10 years ago.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I think there's something about, I mean, it's very nice of you to say. Yeah, but I think a lot of that is just going, I feel very comfortable in my skin. I feel very kind of confident on stage now. And so it allows you to kind of give a beat and to give an honest answer to something. But that thing about going, well, feminism, I think, only solves for the maiden. So all feminism is about the maiden.

• 21:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  And we never talk about the.

• 21:11Fearne Cotton?

  The hag.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Well, maiden, the mother and the matriarch.

• 21:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  We, we don't talk about all three and all three are incredibly important and potent. And it's that thing, I think we slightly have gaslit every woman in society to say you can have it all.

• 21:24Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, bollocks.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  You can have it all, but sequentially, not simultaneously.

• 21:29Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  And it's easier for men to have it kind of simultaneously because here's our secret, we half-ass it. What is a great, what's a great dad as a mediocre mum is what you're looking at right there.

• 21:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that you just said that out loud. I don't think I've heard a man say that before.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  It's true, right?

• 21:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  You know, it's okay.

• 21:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  It's, it's all right. It's, it's fine to like, don't deny.

• 21:50Fearne Cotton?

  No, but I've heard women say it, but not men.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  What?

• 21:53Fearne Cotton?

  Because even the term hands on dad is ludicrous. A mum isn't a hands on mum, they're a mum.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  That's like my favorite thing in the world is when guys talk about I'm, I'm babysitting my kids.

• 22:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, oh.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  What? What? Sorry? You're babysitting? What are you getting? £10 an hour? What are you, what are they? Your kids?

• 22:11Fearne Cotton?

  Your children.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  You can't babysit your kids.

• 22:14Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's absurd.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:16Fearne Cotton?

  How is parenting?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  I really like it. I really like that thing of, uh, it's for me quite a, it's the missing part. It's the, it's again, it's another app totally unteachable lesson.

• 22:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  People telling me have kids, have kids, you'll love it. Like, I thought I was living my life on, I thought I'd found like a cheat code for living life on easy mode, right? Cause it's easy. It's like, you know, you think you've got skin in the game. You've got no skin in the game. I was at a low stakes table without kids.

• 22:48Fearne Cotton?

  And you didn't want them at this point?

• 22:49Speaker 02

  I didn't want them. I had no interest. I was like, that must be fine. I mean, I was, you know, like, like my friends' kids and babies and stuff were great. But I wasn't like, didn't have that, that desire to have children. And then you have them and go, all right, this is, this is everything. This is beautiful. And for me, it's quite a, it's sort of spiritual in a sense. I mean, I don't have, I don't have religion. I don't have, um, God, but I sort of think, I had lunch with a friend. My, I've got a friend called Eric Weinstein, who's a, he's a brilliant man. He's a physicist. And I was chatting about how much I'm loving being a dad. And he, he went, oh yeah, you will, just off the cuff, he just went. You will die and you will be reborn as someone else and you will love them.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  I was like, oh, that's reincarnation. That's it. But there's a crossover period of thirty or forty years where you get to love them. And then you.

• 23:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  You go and they stay.

• 23:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  It's I just find it's such a beautiful thing and it's so fun to no longer, but especially, you know, in show business. Everything's everything's about the individual and your career and what you're doing and your trajectory. And then suddenly you've got kids and you go, well, I'm as happy as my least happy kid.

• 24:02Fearne Cotton?

  It is the most amazing thing. It's also fucking hard. What what has surprised you in terms of how much it pushes your own limits? Because it does for every parent. It pushes you to the rawest version of yourself at times. You have to look at yourself in the mirror and go, oh, my God. What's been the bit for you that you maybe weren't expecting?

• 24:23Speaker 02

  I don't know. I was kind of I was late to it. So I guess I was like, it wasn't so much of that in terms of going, I'd done. You know, had the I didn't feel like it was an imposition in any way. I I loved it. I mean, I don't really have like a a negative thing in terms of going the sleep deprivation or the uh. The change in the nappies or anything. All good. You have to love the whole thing.

• 24:45Fearne Cotton?

  You do. Yeah, you've got to try at least.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's it's all I think it's slightly about embracing the chaos.

• 24:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm not good at that.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Well, there's a weird thing where the idea of kind of perfection and getting to the end of our to do list. Who's that writer, the guy that did Four Thousand Weeks? Oliver Berkman, I think it is.

• 25:05Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  That talks about like getting to the end of your to do list. It's never happening.

• 25:09Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  You're never getting there.

• 25:10Fearne Cotton?

  Never.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  And really, it's the it's quite a recent idea in human history. Like, the Christians had the idea of heaven, which they nicked off the Zarathustrans, the idea of like perfection.

• 25:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  It's so like, we can't even see it, but it's everywhere in our society, the idea of getting everything right and neatly packaged and done. Then you have kids and you just sort of have to embrace the chaos.

• 25:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  It's yeah, it's chaos.

• 25:32Fearne Cotton?

  You seem to me as a person from how I see you more as a viewer. That you do actually reach for your own singular perfection as much as you can. You know, you hone your craft, the way you be, the way you dress, you're put together, the way. We're just listening to you on Catherine's podcast recently, you really look after yourself. You want to reach your sort of full optimization as a human, if possible. So that sits okay along alongside that.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think you, you do, listen, you can't, I do the best with what I've got. I think that thing of like, I've, I've been very lucky, but it would be so ungracious not to put the work in as well.

• 26:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Cause those are the great myths in our culture. The myth of genius is like this huge myth of, oh, he's just a genius. He's a comedy genius, he's a musical genius, he's a, a, a mathematic genius. Well, okay. And then there's the, oh, he worked so hard. Oh God, that guy did eighteen hour days every day for thirty years and ah, he's, he works all the hours, he works hard and he's the first to arrive and the last to leave. Horse shit, both of them, absolute horse shit. It's always both.

• 26:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Like, like talent without hard work is, is, is nothing. It's a coulda, woulda, shoulda. Like if you, you have to put the hours in. It's knowing what the work is as well.

• 26:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Some people don't quite know what the work is.

• 26:49Fearne Cotton?

  And so how do you feel about, i- i- is there such a thing as being a workaholic, do you think?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  I don't think so, but I, I think it's like, I think we've siloed things in our culture in a very unhealthy way. Even if you think about like school, like there's different subjects are taught in different rooms. And universities, that's the science block and that's the history block and that's the social sciences and that's medicine over there. And it's got nothing to do with nutrition and it's like we've siloed things. It's all very, we live in a very left brain world and I think life is right brain.

• 27:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Life, it's about the gestalt, the whole, seeing the whole of your life. So work-life balance, it's like, well, yeah, but you know, there is, there are seasons. You know, sometimes you're on tour and you're working all the hours and sometimes you're at home on holiday and it all evens out in the end. But I, I think the idea of like trying to find a balance day to, like on a yearly basis maybe, but like on a weekly, daily, I don't know.

• 27:46Fearne Cotton?

  No, I know, I agree, cause I think sometimes the whole workaholic thing gets battered about a lot. And sometimes I feel slightly frustrated because it's seen as this. Huge negative, which for some it can be. But I, I love, even when I go home and I'm with my kids, I can, I know part of my brain is still trying to conjure up an idea or work out a solution to an issue I'm having with a book I'm writing or whatever, and I love it. It makes me feel fucking brilliant. So why would I not want to be?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Well, it's also that thing of like, the workaholic thing. Are we talking about people that just want to stack cash? Because it's that thing of like.

• 28:22Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think it's ever been defined as one thing. It's just kind of tossed about negatively.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Well, there's two different things though, aren't there? Because there's, there's um, safety and scarcity.

• 28:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Like as, as just driving human emotions.

• 28:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  And safety is about right, a roof over your head. Enough calories to feed everyone. We're warm, we're, we're safe. And then there's scarcity, which is, okay, winter is coming. We need, we need more provisions. And some people have something missing, I think, in the, the reason there'll be a trillionaire in our lifetime is because a hundred billion is not enough.

• 28:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  It'll never be enough because the scarcity thing, they can't, you, you can never get over that. So it's, it's the old story of, um, I'm sure you know this, the uh, uh, Vonnegut and Joseph Heller.

• 29:09Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, this is the enough story. Yeah. This is so cool.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  But that thing about going, he goes to some crazy party at the Hamptons and the guy's got Picasso's on the wall and supermodels everywhere. And uh, Joseph Heller goes, I've got something he'll never have. Enough.

• 29:23Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  It's so lovely.

• 29:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And that's the opposite of what's projected when we look around on social media or on certain TV shows. It's like, go for more. More is going to make you feel better. And it's like, no, I think knowing what enough is for you creates peace, makes you feel peaceful, rather than that like, oh my God, look what they've got and I haven't got it. Or like just feeling that lack constantly, which is not good for anyone.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, but I mean, it's easy for us, I suppose, you know, we're in show business, we've both done great. You know, it's that thing of like going, if you're, if you're listening and you're kind of on that, on that journey, it's like, oh, it's kind of easy for them to say. But you go, well, what's, what's the, deciding what your metric is in life is really interesting.

• 30:08Fearne Cotton?

  But equally, you know, I didn't grow up with any money. I don't think you did. I'm from a working class family. I can look back at my childhood, my teens, or when I had my first teeny flat, and I was no less happy than I am now. At times I was probably a lot happier, actually, because I, that was enough. That's all I knew. That's all I knew at the time. So I think I'll still strive in the way I am, but I'm not doing it because I need to buy any more shit. I don't need anything else. I don't need another pair of shoes. I just need to pay my bills.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Well, that thing of like, I mean, it's very Buddhist, but not wanting something is as good as having it.

• 30:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  I love that idea. I love that idea of like, like the superpower is not having to impress other people.

• 30:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  That's a superpower. That's like, sometimes you meet people and they've got no interest in impressing anyone else.

• 30:55Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. I'm not there yet either.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  No, but who is? I mean, it's, but it's, that really is something incredible when they're just doing their own thing and they, yeah.

• 31:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. We had this very interesting guest on the podcast a while back who sadly passed away since. A, a ex Buddhist monk, he was Swedish, and he left his monastic life after about 20 years or something of being a fully active monk. And he was called Bjorn Natthiko Lindblad, amazing person, wrote a beautiful book called I May Be Wrong. And I think about it constantly, and it slightly relates to what we're talking about in terms of if he was told something, you know, an idea was projected upon him, or if he was in conflict with somebody, that that would be the constant mantra in the back of his head. I may be wrong. I may be wrong. Just as a leveler. Do you land on that? Are you good at

• 31:45Fearne Cotton?

  admitting you're wrong? Or do you have the sort of broad mindedness to at times go, yeah, I may be wrong on that, which I think you kind of have to do for comedy.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Well, comedy, comedy is kind of about perspectives, sort of seeing things from different angles. So a lot of work is about that, about sort of, and trying to take a heterodox opinion, not just for the sake of it, but just to sort of see around something.

• 32:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  And so instead of just going, well, I know what you're meant to say, but what's the thing that you can't say? That's kind of interesting for me. I mean, I like that idea of going, I might be wrong. I think like, you know. Talk like you're correct and listen like you're wrong.

• 32:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Like, you know, that seems reasonable.

• 32:25Fearne Cotton?

  It does, and the world would probably be a much more peaceful place if many powerful men could go anywhere near that sort of thinking.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Well, we're in like, we're in a really interesting phase of the world now. I think, I don't know how you view it. I think it's, it's pretty bad.

• 32:42Fearne Cotton?

  It's pretty shit.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty bad.

• 32:44Fearne Cotton?

  It's pretty shit, guys.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  I read quite a lot of, I read this guy Neil Howe.

• 32:48Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  He wrote this book called The Fourth Turning. He's a demographer. So he came up with the term millennial. That's his kind of, one of his claims to fame.

• 32:55Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  But he wrote this book back in like nineteen ninety six, which was like, it was a pit at the time, like in academic literature, like did well. And it basically predicted this. So he basically said history works in eighty to hundred year cycles.

• 33:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  And so nineteen twenty nine, people might vaguely know there was a Wall Street crash and there was a Dust Bowl in America and there was Spanish flu that killed lots of people. And now we have environmental crisis and COVID and two thousand eight was the financial crash. And we're in that phase now. It's called the fourth turning. Like everything is changing. It's a revolution. All of these big institutions are falling.

• 33:33Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  And they're being replaced and they'll be rebuilt.

• 33:36Fearne Cotton?

  So it's just spotting these patterns, isn't it?

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's cycles in, in history. So, you know, history doesn't repeat, but humans are the same. They're making the same mistakes that they'll.

• 33:47Fearne Cotton?

  We will continue to.

• 33:51Speaker 04

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• 34:21Speaker 05

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• 34:54Fearne Cotton?

  One thing that is prominent in culture at the moment is of course cancelled culture, which you've done a fair bit of talking around, which I really appreciate. So I think sort of rather than ignoring it or just going, it's a thing happening, talking about it is important. And I guess most people would say that your style is edgy. I don't know if you agree with that. I guess that is part of being a comedian. But I wonder if that is inherently part of your personality is to reach as far as you can, like touch the sides and see where they are. Does that feel like something you need to do?

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Well, the job, like the world ordered an edgy comedian and I'm going to honour that. That's what I do for a living. That's my day job. And at this point of my career, I sound like I've been, I've been around a while.

• 35:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  I've got a fairly decent online presence. I'm on TV a lot. If someone comes to one of my shows and they're offended, that's their fault. That's like buying tickets to a horror movie and complaining you were scared.

• 35:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  I went to see ACDC's A Bit Too Loud. I want my money back. Fuck are you talking about? That's mental. So that thing of going, I think your sense of humour is very much like your taste in food.

• 36:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Or your sexual mores. You know, some people like it spicy.

• 36:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Some people like the kinky stuff. Some people like missionary and vanilla. Fine. Some people like edgy comedy. Some people like super mild stuff. I'm not for everyone. I mean, I like to think some of the TV stuff that I do, things like Last One Laughing or Cat's Countdown, the TV stuff, you are a guest in someone's home.

• 36:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  When you're on television. But if it's a live gig and they've literally bought in to see the show, I'm like, well, great. We can talk about anything and we can push this further. And the audience will tell me what is and what isn't acceptable and what is and what isn't funny. If they don't laugh at something, I'm not going to say it twice.

• 36:41Fearne Cotton?

  No, but when it moves into perhaps public shaming, and I feel like I've been through the mill with that to some extent in earlier periods of my career, it can be excruciating. And you've said before that that's caused panic attacks for you, you having insomnia for brief periods.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think that's, I think the, I, I try and be, try and see it in the round, right? So the, I suffer a little bit with anxiety.

• 37:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  But also the only reason I've ever written a joke is because of that ever whirring mind. So there's, there's, there's always a positive. And I think calling it anxiety, I think the, the, um, the idea that in our society, we've, everything is pathologized. So you call it anxiety, but it's worry.

• 37:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Call it depression, but it's, it's sadness. And I think changing the words you use sometimes just make it feel much more manageable. And, oh yeah, I could deal with that. Yeah, I'm worried about that thing. It's all right. And, and once you've been through it a couple of times, it's sort of, it's okay. I think being cancelled is an interesting experience because it's a filter on your audience and on your friends.

• 37:46Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  It's, it's sometimes, it's very surprising.

• 37:49Fearne Cotton?

  The friends one is much harder to swallow.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, but also the great thing is the surprises.

• 37:55Fearne Cotton?

  Right. And you have been surprised?

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, people that call on the day, the people that call the next day, the people that just check in. You're right, they've been through it. It's a nice thing. We think that thing of like, that's the, the advice to, to anyone is like, if someone's going through something, especially something really awkward and weird, call and go, I don't know what to say.

• 38:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Don't say nothing.

• 38:15Fearne Cotton?

  Don't say nothing because that's only going to accentuate the shame and the torture for the person going through it. Imagining, oh God, everyone does think I'm terrible. The one thing you have to be sure of when you're being shamed, if you're not in the public eye, or publicly shamed, if you wanna navigate it, is you've got to be sure of yourself. You've got to not turn the gun on yourself. You can't go, oh, yeah, I am a piece of shit. I should be cancelled. I am awful.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Well, there's, there's character and reputation. So reputation's what everyone else thinks about you and character's what you know about yourself.

• 38:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  You've got to be pretty solid on that. The only question you have to, like, if you get cancelled again, you're just gonna ask one question. Who are you? And if you get cancelled over something authentic that you did, or you said, or that you meant, or that you, you were joking, it's fine.

• 39:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I like that because I think, obviously, people listening to this might not have that fear of being cancelled, but they will definitely have the fear of being rejected by the people. And I think the same applies. If you're sure of who you are, and you're sure of your character and your values, that's the way to navigate it. That's the way to get through it. Is that what's helped you?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think if you have like, um, a fairly good view of, you know, a solid basis that you're, you know, you've got, take care of yourself. I mean, it's also that thing of, I often worry with the, I mean, there is kind of a mental health crisis, uh, going on. There's a, a crisis with young men. And you got, how much i- is a software problem and how much is a hardware problem? So if you, if you think about like, if you are someone, eh, you have a friend that is depressed, feeling down, whatever's going on, how much sleep are they getting?

• 39:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  How much exercise are they taking? What's their nutrition like? Are they drinking and drugging? And, you know, ninety percent of the time, you go, I can see what this problem might be. You're not sleeping. You're not taking care of yourself. You're, you're, you're manically scrolling and not allowing yourself time to relax. You've got nothing where, there's nothing in your life where you're in a flow state. You know, there's so many things that you could deal with that are physical before you get to the mental.

• 40:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. So that's a software setting, are we calling that one?

• 40:23Speaker 02

  I would say the hardware is your body, your sleep, your nutrition, your exercise, taking care of yourself.

• 40:29Fearne Cotton?

  And then software is what? Your social interactions, your mind?

• 40:32Speaker 02

  Your mind, you know, so if you're feeling depressed and anxious, because I think anxiety is not, we sort of think anxiety is about something. But it tends to be just, you could be anxious about, like, if you're not anxious about anything particularly in your life, then you're reading the news and trying to be anxious about the end of the world.

• 40:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's anti-patriotry a lot of the time.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Yes, it's, well, anxiety is about the future and depression is about the past.

• 40:52Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. Your mum had poor mental health, which wasn't necessarily recognised back then.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I think that weird thing of like, no one was in therapy in the eighties.

• 41:04Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Like, it was like, the therapy in the eighties consisted of someone in the high street going, cheer up darling.

• 41:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, put a smile on your face.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, come on, love a smile, you've got a pretty face.

• 41:14Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, I feel angry thinking about it, yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  But that was kind of it, or the, you know, if you were kind of mopey or down or, oh, I want to have a couple of drinks, literally the worst thing for it.

• 41:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Like, no one was in that, and it's become slightly more acceptable to have therapy and also to find, figure out what works for you. I think the first thing a therapist should say, when you sit down, you go and see a therapist or you talk to someone online, whatever's going on, they should say, oh, by the way, I do this type of therapy. And there's twenty other kinds, and this might not work for you, but don't write it off. Because for some people, like Freudian analysis is like the last thing they want to do. They want to do cognitive behavioural therapy or some, something that's a bit more like, oh, short, sharp, I just want to fix this problem and move on. Great.

• 41:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, try them all. I mean, if you can. I've been lucky enough that I've tried all sorts and I've definitely landed on a style that suits me. But back for, yeah, my mum's, I'm not saying anything she hasn't said, she's been on the podcast, so she's talked about her own mental health, which has been sort of sketchy over the years. And still now, she sees therapy as something that you only go to if it's like mega SOS. It's not something like for our generation where we think, yeah, I would like to do a course of it. Or maybe it's a weekly thing if you can make that happen. It just wasn't the done thing. And my mum's mum. Was actually in a day psych ward for quite a lot of my mum's childhood because she was really mentally not very well at all. But that was a much more sort of severe, and I'm not even sure how helpful that was, but a sort of severe

• 42:44Fearne Cotton?

  exit strategy for my nan to sort of feel better. Growing up, were you aware that your mum wasn't feeling great or that there was something lurking?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  I think this is the thing with most comedians, like, you know, if you have to ask them one question, which your parents were sick. I think you become a very good thermostat on a room. You're very good at walking in a room and going, something feels off.

• 43:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  I could cheer this up. I can make this all right. Yeah, I was I was kind of aware, but not that aware. And I didn't, I don't feel, I don't feel too guilty about it, but I feel like someone should have done something, like that thing of going, we were an Irish family that came over to Britain in the nineteen seventies. And so I think lacking the support network sometimes is that thing. I just think it's, it's not, you know, it's not healthy. It's, people need connections. We have, we sort of think we're individuals, but actually we have dispersed identities. And it's our relationship with our families and our friends and our colleagues and it's, we exist in all of those places. We exist between those places.

• 43:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  So I think she was a little bit isolated.

• 43:51Fearne Cotton?

  And so do you see your comedy as being a bit of a reaction to that then? Like you've just said, you know, most comedians may have a parent that has been through something and you would try to remedy it.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it is kind of slightly pathological, needing that much love from strangers. And wanting people to laugh, wanting people to be happy.

• 44:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, do you still now, after all these years, when you go out on stage and you get a good reaction, you're still getting the same hit, the same buzz? It doesn't dilute?

• 44:19Speaker 02

  No, no, I don't think it does. Because there's a sense in which you're kind of getting better at it as you go along. So it feels like it's, there's a, what's that? There's a term for it, like tealic and anti-tealic tasks.

• 44:32Fearne Cotton?

  I've not heard that.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  Okay, so it's tasks with an ending, that's a definite ending, right? We're gonna do a play and it's gonna last six weeks and then we're done. And those can be quite depressing. Because at the end of the project, at the end of the summer, the end of summer camp, whatever you, whatever the thing was that you did, and it's got an end date and you completed it, great. And then it's like, oh. Oh, we've done that now.

• 44:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  And then you've got to find something else to do. And then there's antithetic tasks that have no end. So like being a parent, being a comedian, like things you can just constantly get better at. And you just, you do them for their own sake.

• 45:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very much like, I've been interviewing people since I was about fifteen and I still feel like I'm, I don't know, twenty percent up the ladder. I've got so many more hours in me that I wanna put the practice in, see where I can take it, how much better I can get. But there is, I guess, the, the real time benefits that you can see of doing something over decades is how relaxed you feel and how much you enjoy it in the moment. Like, I remember presenting TV shows back in my teens or early twenties where I'd be thinking, just get to the end, get to the end. I just want this to be over. And then the relief was the result that I enjoyed, like, oh, fuck, that's done, I've done it.

• 45:48Fearne Cotton?

  The relief was so huge that it would allow me to say yes to another job that I was slightly dreading doing. Whereas now, I don't have any dread and I'm not going, oh, can this just end so I can get to the relief bit? I'm in real time enjoying what I'm doing. I think that's the gift of doing something a lot.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that thing about looking for that flow state, looking for that thing that feels like this is really fun.

• 46:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we're very lucky that we get to do that.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, incredibly lucky.

• 46:16Fearne Cotton?

  So lucky. I mean, thinking about doing comedy for the rest of your days, does that feel like something that excites you?

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I really, I really, really love it. I mean, I love it as a, and it's all, it's having a bit of a moment, I think culturally. Because it feels very authentic in a world that doesn't feel very authentic. Um, and it's, and there's kind of no, there's no cheat, there's no, there's no way to get it done faster. It's like, it's not like you're not seeing, it's not, oh, there's a new, you know, seventeen year old that's blowing up. It's like, no, no, everyone's got to put the work in, in the clubs and build their career and learn how to write jokes. And it feels like it's something that you, you get better with over time.

• 46:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And also, you have to build up resilience, because I think, you know, we've had a fair few comedians on here, and that is a theme that comes up a lot, is that when you do that first run of gigs for the first however many years, you experience absolute shit shows, which are awful, where no one laughs, there's silence, and you've got to be able to pick yourself back up afterwards. You have to.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think, you know, failure is that, it's how you view it. It's that feedback loop. As long as you're not making the same mistake repeatedly, great.

• 47:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, do you, even if you look back to those early days, but, but speaking more sort of recently, are you okay with negative feedback? You can take it on board and water for ducks back?

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Well, I get heckled a lot.

• 47:36Fearne Cotton?

  Do you? Well, negatively?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Well, I actively encourage it. I mean, I like people to join in. I sort of think that thing about, the illusion when you go and see a gig is that you're the only one in the room performing, because you're on stage and you have a mic. But everyone's performing. The place I saw it most was, the place I really recognised it, I went to see Taylor Swift in Wembley. And I was sat, and it was a great gig, and you know, very much enjoyed it. But like, she was great, but then watching the audience was magnificent.

• 48:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Because it was kind of, it was like, girls and mums like singing at each other and doing the hand movements and, and like embodying this, and it was their thing. It was, and I saw the Oasis gig had exactly the same thing with a bunch of dudes doing the same sing-along, it was best friends, and it really felt performative.

• 48:19Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  And laughter's a very performative thing. Laughing at something is like, you don't really laugh when you're scrolling through funny stuff on your phone.

• 48:25Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  You think that is funny, and you smile, and you might chuckle, but the real belly laugh is you've got to be in the room.

• 48:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you do.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Or with friends. It's why I think people love Christmas TV so much.

• 48:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because you're with other humans, yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  You're with everyone else, watching it together. Great. This is like, it really feels like, and you're kind of, the laughter's kind of subconsciously showing other people you get the joke.

• 48:51Speaker 06

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel. And Maisy Adams. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 49:24Fearne Cotton?

  You are obviously, as you've alluded to, a half glass full person. Your happy foundations are pretty solid and you feel good most of the time. But are there days where you turn up to a gig venue in, I don't know, some random city in America that you've never been to and you just think, I'm not in the mood, I don't have it in me, I just want to be alone in a room. I don't want to have to deal with that. It's a huge interaction, it's a huge dynamic between you and an audience.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  No, I would be, no. I mean, it's like, no, it's like, pressure is a privilege. And that whole thing of like, yeah, I'll wear a three piece suit and a tie. That's a mark of respect to the audience, they've bought a ticket. Someone in the audience is having a tougher day than you.

• 50:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  And they bought tickets and I think you buy tickets to a show and you think, okay, I'm looking forward to that.

• 50:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  And then you go out there and it's not my business to bring my shit onto the stage. It's, I'm there, I'm of service. I'm in the service industry and I make something that people want. I make them happy and you have a job to do, go out there and you do it.

• 50:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Being of service is like, it's underrated as a, but everyone's, we've all got to serve ourselves.

• 50:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you can't pour from an empty cup. You've got to be, you've got to be topped up yourself. What are the things, what are the non-negotiables that keep you in that state? Where you can go out on stage and give that huge audience your absolute all?

• 50:49Speaker 02

  I sauna cold plunge every day.

• 50:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I heard this. So my brother's big on this and he texts me immediately. I went, Jimmy Carr does it every day. There you go. Boom. That's your thing.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not great with meditation. So for me, it's like a physical manifestation of being in a meditative state. Because you're very hot, very cold, you're really looking forward to something constantly. So you're in a very, very hot environment and then you're looking forward to being in the cold. And then in the cold, very much looking forward to being in hot. It's kind of like life, it's a perfect life.

• 51:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Not only doing something fun, but looking forward to something.

• 51:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you've got something in the diary.

• 51:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, I love that. I can, I'm not very good at meditating. I think people assume that I meditate every day. I haven't meditated for years. But I do meditate when I'm painting. I think of... Very little. My brain is so streamlined. I'm so in it and you know, two hours could pass and it feels like two minutes and I'm freaked out.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  No, that's lovely.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  I'm like, oh my God, I've got to go and pick up the kids from school and I literally feel like I've just started and won't remember to drink or go for a wee, you know, it's, I'm so in it. I love it. But I think there's very few things that bring me that. Is that what you have on stage?

• 52:02Speaker 02

  Someone had great careers advice. I can't remember who it was. Um, like her career advice was pay attention to what you pay attention to.

• 52:09Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Like, cause people talk about, oh, kids these days, they've got no attention span. You know, it's all TikTok videos and they're all 12 seconds long and, but you got, you know, they've got great attention for good stuff.

• 52:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  They'll, they'll listen to a four hour podcast or they'll watch 60 hours of Game of Thrones.

• 52:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  If it's good, they'll play video games for 12 hours.

• 52:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  If it's engaging, they're, they're in it. If it's nonsense, swipe through.

• 52:32Fearne Cotton?

  Scroll on. Yeah, you're very right. Is that, is that what you're looking for on stage or you are in that flow state? You're so focused.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  I feel pretty, I'm quite sort of flow state on stage in terms of going, the performance and the way that, you know, people think about jokes. Okay. So that you've got the jokes and then you've got your kind of facial expression and what you're doing. There's a lot with, um, I would call it your footwork, like what you're doing to, you're sort of directing an audience and trying to get a reaction. So I'll, I'll, I'll be trying to hit certain sort of beats per minute and trying to get them into a state where it's just they're having the best night.

• 53:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's that rolling laughter.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Well, that, and it's, it's also like every gig I've ever done is an advert for when I'm back.

• 53:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  There's no farewell tour. It's like, oh, you had a great time. I want you to book a ticket next time.

• 53:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  I want you to come back and see this again. And then it's that, I don't know. I mean, it's, so I suppose that thing of like, I'm getting in that state's quite easy because you, you sort of, I know what has to be, the first 20 minutes, you go out and just, it's all, it's a fastball.

• 53:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yep. There's a science behind it.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's I think there's too much magical thinking in my industry. I think it's um, so I'm I'm working on a thing at the moment, actually, with my friend Amanda Baker and Abby Grant. We'll work on a book about how to write jokes and perform comedy. And that sort of sense of going, try and give something back, try and sort of do something that's like, because it is a bit. It's, oh, he's a, he's just a comedy genius. You go, no, no, there's, there's ways of codifying this.

• 54:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  If we can write music, we can write comedy.

• 54:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, there's code behind everything and and practice, like you say, it's not like you just, you know, you came out the womb funny. There's, you've got funny bones, but you've got to work at it. You have to. You've got to put the hours in. With that, pushing things to the edges and looking for, which I'm sure every time you tour, you're like, what? What outrageous thing would get a laugh or where can I take this? I think the thing that stops people even saying things in front of their mates that they think might get an outraged reaction is this inherent fear of authority that we have, whether it was one particular parent who would say, you know, have a go at you, or a teacher that scared the absolute shit out of you. Do you just not have that? You don't have that fear?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  No, I think it's, I think it's about friendship. I think it's about um, saying, okay, so who's your best friend in the world? I could, I could tell you who your best friend is. It's the person you've got the least filter with.

• 55:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Right. So if you have no filter with someone, like if you sit next to someone on a plane or a train, oh, the weather, yes, beautiful day, lovely. Sports, yeah, that local team did great. Like, it's a very surface level conversation. If it's your best friend in the world and you're going, oh, my God, you have to see these hemorrhoids. I took a picture. Check it out. Like that, that's a different level, like, but that thing of going, it's a, it's a conversation where you go, there's no filter. I'll, I'll trust that you're my friend. You know, this is, I always think intent is so much more important than content. And the audience get what the intent is.

• 55:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  And the times you get cancelled are where the content escapes the lab and people that would never be at my show get it in the morning paper.

• 55:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, there's no tone behind it. Yeah.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Well, fine. I'll live with that occupational hazard.

• 55:58Fearne Cotton?

  We are creating a Happy Place playlist at the moment. So each guest we ask, if you would like to put one song on it, what would that song be?

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Oh, a Happy Place playlist? Okay, so what's the, uh, what's the theme? Is it joyful songs or?

• 56:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, the themes are loose because people have picked all different things, you know, songs that just make them feel very safe and comfortable. And some have picked huge bangers that make them wanna get up and dance. It could quite literally be anything.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think of what I would choose. Probably Paul Simon's Obvious Child.

• 56:30Fearne Cotton?

  Nice.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  I remember dancing to it with my mother and I, it's kind of a, it's, it's been around. It's been like, and I really like that. I like that, everything about it. I like the lyrics, I like the, the feel of it and the drums. That's kind of, um, South American kind of feel. It's, yeah, beautiful.

• 56:47Fearne Cotton?

  And nice memories attached to it.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that thing about going, well, music's great for that.

• 56:51Fearne Cotton?

  So evocative, yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  It's extraordinary, that kind of non-verbal communication. The idea that you can play a minor key and people go, oh, sad. But you can go anywhere in the world that means that.

• 57:00Fearne Cotton?

  I know, it's the best. On my Radio Two show, there are certain songs that are, you know, obviously I don't playlist the show, but I'll put whatever song it is on. And there are however many songs, forty songs, where I get this visceral reaction to the song because my body knows it's on Now 23 and I'm always fucking right.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:21Fearne Cotton?

  And I tell my producer, Google it, is that on Now 23? And she goes, yep, I have this wig because it was my favorite Now CD.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:28Fearne Cotton?

  And I remember it so vividly.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  What age were you, like seventeen?

• 57:32Fearne Cotton?

  No, it was in nineteen ninety-one, so I would have been ten.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Oh, wow, okay, that's early. Because I always think like people's favorite album tends to be seventeen, eighteen, like their favorite record. So for me, it would be like the, I guess, the, the Stone Roses, the Stone Roses. That thing of like going, because music kind of meant more then. Like just when you're young, when you're taking it all in for the first time, it's like, it's incredible. This is.

• 57:57Fearne Cotton?

  Now twenty-three at ten years old.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:00Fearne Cotton?

  I have a, honestly, a physical reaction when I hear these songs. I'm like, today it was Tasman Archer and I was like, now twenty-three, and I was right.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Wow, yeah.

• 58:08Fearne Cotton?

  It's, it's a pointless skill.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  I like that though, I like, I like that thing of, uh, I've, I've tried to turn it on its head recently in terms of going, because it's about what different things do for you. Like, we tend to like new movies.

• 58:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  New movies and old music. And so I like to try and turn it on its head. I try and watch old movies and listen to new music. Because it's like where you're trying to get your dopamine.

• 58:32Fearne Cotton?

  Get your hit.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, where are you getting that from?

• 58:34Fearne Cotton?

  What new music are you liking that you've heard recently?

• 58:36Speaker 02

  I've got like, I mean, I'm very indie rock and roll. So if that's my sort of go to.

• 58:41Fearne Cotton?

  Geese, listening to them?

• 58:42Speaker 02

  I think they're on the playlist, yeah. But the problem with it now is it's not like it was when I was a kid.

• 58:47Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Where you would get, well, no, you'd get, it would be a physical thing and you would read the notes.

• 58:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  And now it's weirdly, it's like a scented candle. So you can put on an amazing playlist and you can put the likes, but you can't. I don't know what's the name of the band and what's the song?

• 59:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  But something new is really, that's always exciting with music.

• 59:05Fearne Cotton?

  It's always exciting. It's the best. And to finish, where is your happy place, Jimmy Carr?

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Is this like, do we want a physical place or can it be?

• 59:13Fearne Cotton?

  Either. Some people go for something fantastical, metaphorical, some actual place. It could be anything.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Um, I should have given this some thought before the show.

• 59:23Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's quite nice, I think, off the top of your head. I mean, mind changes every day. It could be by the sea or it could be painting. It could be anything.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think home, and I don't mean that in a physical sense of the house. I think the family. I think that thing about going.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Home isn't a place, it tends to be a person. And if you've got that thing where you go, you feel like, all right, I'm home now. And that can be anywhere. You could be on the road, you could be travelling, you could be on holiday, but you feel like, okay, if we're all together, that's pretty great.

• 59:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's the best. It's a great feeling.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  It's pretty good.

• 59:58Fearne Cotton?

  Well, Jimmy Carr, thank you so much for being on here. I cannot wait for tonight's Last One Laughing. That's like, that's what I'm doing tonight. I'm living for it. It is my absolute dopamine hit of the day. I fucking love it.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  It is fun.

• 1:00:10Fearne Cotton?

  And I want to come and see one of your Palladium shows, so I'm booking, I'm going to get tickets for that. I'm coming.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Come, I can, I know a guy. I can hook you, I can hook you up.

• 1:00:17Fearne Cotton?

  I would never want to assume that I'm getting a freebie. I'm happy to fund your lifestyle, Jimmy Carr.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. Come on, show business. Show business.

• 1:00:27Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  It's my pleasure.

• 1:00:30Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. Jimmy's one of those people that you could have an interesting conversation with until the wee hours. He's just got a lot to say. He knows a lot of stuff. He takes the time to read interesting books and to keep curious and to keep learning. And actually, some members of Team Happy Place were like, should we get Jimmy on? I don't know. Sometimes he can be a bit controversial. And by the end of that chat, everyone on the team was like, what a bloody lovely bloke. Super polite, turned up on his own, which might not sound like a big deal, but let me tell you, it is. A lot of guests we get either come with an entourage or, you know, someone with them. All fine, absolutely okay with us. But it's really refreshing when you get someone who's just jumped in

• 1:01:15Fearne Cotton?

  a black cab or jumped on the tube and arrived at the studio on their own. There's something just wonderfully refreshing about that. And it's a lot less faff, let me tell you. Now Jimmy's going to be out on tour this year and his night at the London Palladium, which I'm very much going to get tickets for, will be his final UK show of his Laughs Funny Tour. So make sure that you get your tickets if you haven't already. Now, I can't wait for next week's episode. She's a mate of mine, a brilliant mental health activist and advocate, and she likes to run marathons in her bra. I'll leave you with that. And in the meantime, a massive thanks again to Jimmy, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you gorgeous bloody lot.

• 1:02:28Speaker 07

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• 1:02:34Speaker 07

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• 1:02:58Speaker 06

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel. And Maisie Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah! A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom! You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby!