Making sense of big feelings and busy brains, with Paul Whitehouse & Dr Mine Conkbayir MBE

Are you aware of what can trigger big emotions in you? How to do you act on those difficult emotions? Comedian Paul Whitehouse and his wife Dr Mine Conkbayir MBE – who has a PhD in neuroscience – talk about learning to emotionally regulate. In this chat with Fearne – live from the Happy Place Festival – Mine explains what led to her late ADHD diagnosis, and the childhood trauma that plays into her own behaviour. Meanwhile Paul’s had physical health scares, and explores how his lifestyle has changed as a result. They all talk about how the education system needs to change for neurodiverse children, why labels might be useful for some and not for others, and how to calm others with your own behaviour. Plus, why do this married couple choose not to live together? Listen to Paul and Mine’s podcast I’m ADHD! No You’re Not! wherever you’re listening to this right now! If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Lucinda Miller https://pod.fo/e/264d40 Alex Partridge https://pod.fo/e/26ccd6 Jordan Stephens https://pod.fo/e/136bdc Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. Today, a real treat, not one but two guests, live from the Happy Place Festival. I'm chatting to Paul Whitehouse and Dr Mina, joined by our MBE.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  It was my then therapist who suggested I might be ADHD and the mere thought, you know, shocked me deeply. I was like, moi? You know, but I had headphones on, chewing gum, book in one hand, foot bouncing. Well, what gives you that idea, you know? And she was like, well, look, you know, I'm not interested in the labels, but might be something for you to pursue in the future. And when I was diagnosed, I hit top marks across the board and...

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Top marks?

• 0:44Speaker 01

  I cried. I felt quite scared and angry and upset.

• 0:49Fearne Cotton?

  I am recording this little intro from home today and I'm still absolutely bloody knackered slash elated about the weekend. I had such a good time at the Happy Place Festival. It was just quite dreamlike. I've spent a lot of time, like you do after you've been on holiday, looking back at all the beautiful photos. It was just so, so special. And I was so happy to meet Paul and Dr Mina. I think I've met Paul before. Some of the 90s were a little bit blurry around the edges, but I'm pretty sure I've met him before. But we had such a laugh. They're a wonderful, dynamic duo. Not only do they host an amazing podcast, but they're husband and wife. And they've got their own set of rules for life

• 1:32Fearne Cotton?

  that they really live by, that I really love. And they're fascinating and they're funny and they bicker and they're just brilliant. And a little kind of behind the scenes look at the day. After we came off stage, we are really good friends with this amazing brand called Electric Eye Apparel. I've got loads of t-shirts. If you've ever seen me wearing a t-shirt with like a band lyric on, it's from this brand. Very small brand, run by one lady. And she very kindly said that she would make some of our Happy Place Festival guests a gift. So we got their favourite song lyrics and then we had them put onto jumpers and t-shirts. And we gave Dr Mina hers after the podcast and she was so touched that she cried. And it was just such a beautiful moment, like so lovely. It couldn't have

• 2:16Fearne Cotton?

  been nicer after like the high of being on stage and we had a big hug. It was just, it was beautiful. And then we gave Paul Whitehouse his and it was lyrics from the Wombel song, which was in vast contrast hilarious. Now, of course, we all know comedian Paul from the Far Show, which was just iconic TV for me growing up in the 90s. I didn't miss an episode. Me and my dad still quote it now. And of course, Mortimer and Whitehouse Gone Fishing, which is the most gentle show where you get to see Bob Mortimer and Paul Whitehouse obviously fishing, but also chatting about all sorts. It's really beautiful. And also, of course, his wife, Mina. She's an absolute powerhouse too. She's a lecturer and has a

• 2:58Fearne Cotton?

  PhD in early childhood education and neuroscience. She also has ADHD, but was diagnosed later in life. So together they host this award-winning podcast that I adore called I'm ADHD, No You're Not. And that's what we talk about a lot today. Why some people find labels really useful and others just don't. Both are fine. And also the work Mina's doing to change the education system and loads of really useful stuff about how to self-regulate our emotions.

• 3:29Speaker 03

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• 4:09Speaker 03

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• 5:31Fearne Cotton?

  Right, here we go. This is the show.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Limer, I was expecting about three people.

• 5:57Fearne Cotton?

  No, he's your groupies, my dear.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Millions of ya.

• 6:00Fearne Cotton?

  Look at them.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  I'm not Bob Mortimer, you know that, don't you?

• 6:07Speaker 02

  I'm better than that.

• 6:10Fearne Cotton?

  Dr Mina, look at your shoes.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I had to. I'm so short. I just wanted to elevate myself.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  She's only about that high.

• 6:16Fearne Cotton?

  Please tell me you're going to do yoga in those.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  I'd love to. I've played football in them before and I've scored.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  She's done down dogging them as well. We won't go into that.

• 6:27Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's a bit early for that, I would say.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  This is the earliest gig I've ever done by the way. Wake me up in about 10 minutes.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, we will. Welcome, welcome to the festival. I hope you have a really lovely day today. I love what you're doing as a couple, as a dynamic duo. I think your podcast is brilliant.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 6:48Fearne Cotton?

  I'm ADHD, no you're not.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:50Fearne Cotton?

  It's absolutely brilliant. You've had some amazing guests on, Robbie Williams, who was so open chatting to you guys.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, very generous.

• 6:56Fearne Cotton?

  And I really loved Serena and Roger Taylor, which was a recent one. I thought that was fascinating.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  It was and that means we've been to the houses of two of the richest people in the world. What did you nick? She always nicks some...

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Bog roll, fire rose.

• 7:11Fearne Cotton?

  Bog roll?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Fire rose, tea bags.

• 7:15Fearne Cotton?

  Right. Do they know this?

• 7:17Speaker 02

  They do now.

• 7:20Fearne Cotton?

  But it's so brilliant. I love the conversations that you're having, but also as you're a couple, I love that you quite frequently pee each other off during the interview.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  You're surely not.

• 7:31Fearne Cotton?

  Just a really fun little domestic to listen to. I like it.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, raw.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  What was it Angela Barnes said? It was like being in the backseat of the car.

• 7:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  And your parents are having the argument that's going to lead to the divorce in the front on your way to your summer holiday.

• 7:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's great. It's a really interesting thing to listen to. And obviously you're talking about big topics. You're talking about ADHD formally. Dr Mina, you were diagnosed at what age of ADHD?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Forty-three.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Surely not, darling.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  So three years ago.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  How am I doing?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Shut up.

• 8:06Fearne Cotton?

  Very good. I mean, like many of the women that you've interviewed on the podcast, there's misdiagnosis, there's completely getting it wrong or ignoring it, certainly in childhood. And there are a lot of women, more specifically later on in life, getting these late diagnoses. What did that mean to you and what led you to going to get that checked out in the first place?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  It was my then therapist who suggested I might be ADHD and the mere thought, you know, shocked me deeply. I was like, moi? You know, but I had headphones on, chewing gum, book in one hand, foot bouncing. Well, what gives you that idea, you know? And she was like, well, look, you know, I'm not interested in the labels, but might be something for you to pursue in the future. And when I was diagnosed, I hit top marks across the board

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Top marks.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  I cried, you know, I felt really, I felt quite scared and angry and upset. But I also don't think it's the full picture for me because there is early childhood trauma and and the anxiety and the depression. I think that there's a lot of overlap there and it's very difficult to pick up the thread and say, this is because of this, this is because of this. And, you know, you also then have to go, well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It's 90% genetic. Hi mum, I've just been diagnosed. Oh, best wishes and get well soon, but it's nothing to do with me. I'm like, um, really?

• 9:28Fearne Cotton?

  Best wishes.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Best wishes. Kind regards and best wishes, daughter.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  In Turkish, she said, getch mis ol son, which means get well soon.

• 9:37Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  And I'm like, it doesn't work like that, love. Um, so it's, you know, difficult conversations were then had and she softened to it and is now a bit more open. But she's nearly 80. What does ADHD mean to her? And she's survived all her life, let's say with it, but, you know, life has been very difficult for her. And I'm trying to not make those mistakes as a mum, but that might be another story. I don't know. There's a lot going on there. It's not, I don't think ADHD is my full picture. I think it's more about the complex trauma and.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  I'm trying to interrupt.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Shut up.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  And mansplain and talk over you here.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I've got the noise coming out. Oh.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Alan Hansen, he used to sit like that. He goes, it's all about peace. It's all about peace.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Well, you've just ruined my pace. I don't even know what I was saying.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  And now it begins.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  No, what I was gonna say, I was just gonna pick up on that because the, the title of the podcast is, I'm ADHD, no, you're not. Because there are so many variables and with you, I think you're sort of very traumatic childhood, either is, sort of masks the fact that you are ADHD or triggers it. And that's something we're still debating, really, and trying to unpack, people say these days, don't they?

• 10:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, they do say unpack. You're absolutely right.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do. Let's unpack that, shall we?

• 10:55Fearne Cotton?

  Let's unpack it and circle back to that.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Oh, my thinking.

• 10:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  So.

• 11:01Fearne Cotton?

  But it's such an interesting topic because it is quite newly discussed. You know, if we look back 20 years ago, this wasn't a thing. You know, I'm, I'm not diagnosed and we can all sit there and go, oh, some of it resonates. I feel like I could be. But for girls especially, in school, when you're a young kid, it could be, you know, looking out the window, daydreaming. And you were just the kid that was, you know, slightly not in the room. Whereas now, we take a bit more time and care to go, oh, is there something going on there? Is that something we need to look into?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  And I think that's why it's so important to be person focused before seeking a label anyway, because you could be ADHD and not get the support you need anyway. And I can speak to that as a parent and as a teacher and a lecturer. I didn't know I was ADHD at the time, let alone all my other flipping diagnoses. And I didn't know that my students were some of them. But I knew that they all came from very traumatic backgrounds. So I met each one where they were. And that did look like chaos in the classroom. A lot of the time, you know, there'd be some on the floor, lying on their stomachs, shoes and socks off. Some would be leaning the pads on the wall. Some would be just outside. I'd take them to the green space that was local a lot of the time, just so that I could

• 12:13Speaker 01

  be, you know, present for them as a, as a lecturer and as a caregiver, because a lot of them had defences that were really high. They struggled to stay focused in the classroom. So it is, again, I'm gonna say, it's about meeting that person where they are. And I think there's a lot of resistance to ADHD and autism today. And, you know, at one end of the spectrum, you've got, everyone's a bit ADHD today to it doesn't exist. Well, you know, the wiring is different. That is proven. It doesn't mean it has to be steeped in the narrative of deficits and struggle all the time. But again, I think that comes

• 12:53Speaker 01

  back to how we make, I don't even like the word accommodations, but how we make space for it meaningfully for that individual, be they a child or an adult, whatever. And I don't think society's good at that. They're not willing to just yet.

• 13:07Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Steps are being made.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  I think it's bizarre that we expect five-year-old children to sit in a classroom for any length of time. This is crazy, isn't it?

• 13:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  It's mad.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  It is, isn't it? You know, what, what five-year-old do you know, unless they've got a, you know,

• 13:25Fearne Cotton?

  A device.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  A device. They're gonna go, oh, I can't wait to sit down for eight hours.

• 13:29Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. But this is my Victorian sort of schooling system.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  This comes back to the education system being too narrow, too bland, too unfit for purpose for anyone that has that spark of interest that wants to learn in a way that is dynamic. And it's not forced upon them in this irrelevant curriculum that doesn't cater for their needs or their preoccupations. And that, you know, almost every single one of our guests was failed by the education system. They were bullied, they were kicked out, they didn't get the grades. Who didn't? Surprisingly, Stephen Fry flourished after a while.

• 14:06Fearne Cotton?

  Is he ADHD? I didn't know that.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Oh, he's everything.

• 14:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:10Fearne Cotton?

  I did not know that. How interesting.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I mean, you often, I mean, I call it the unholy trinity, all of our guests, you know, because one could say, oh, they're all successful, they're all celebs. Yeah, but listen to their stories. Every single one brought with them a story of anxiety, depression, thoughts of suicide, some attempted suicide. And it's, what are we failing, you know, to grasp with these individuals? You can't just dismiss everyone and say, oh, but they're ADHD and that's why, as if like, that's, you're destined for that. You know, it's about how we support these individuals. And I just think that remains lacking.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  I think we, you know, sometimes we, it feels like we're being critical of teachers. Absolutely not. Completely the opposite. You know, I think, you know, trying to sort of open up the education system and not make it not so sort of linear and crushing, actually will be liberating for teachers.

• 15:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Because what they have to do is try and keep 20, 30 kids, you know, under control in a classroom, which we know is, is a, you know, a false kind of hope, really.

• 15:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  So, as I say, I mean, I'm very supportive of teachers. My mum ended up being a teacher. So, uh, you know, we're very, Min's a teacher. We're very supportive of teachers. But I think the system, you know, we say, can we change the system to adapt to individual needs? It's not gonna make it more difficult, weirdly, because you're not asking children to do something that's very unnatural. So hopefully that, I mean, I don't know, everybody wants a share of the pie, don't they? But, I mean, the, our children's education is obviously the most crucial thing.

• 15:47Fearne Cotton?

  It is.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  You know, but, I mean, I, I don't know if it's a mantra that people say a lot, but I've always said, half the class size is double teachers' wages. And you'll get an extraordinary education system that ultimately can only produce people that are gonna be beneficial for everyone.

• 16:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Anyway.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I'm just flipping it upside down.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  The pipe dream, maybe.

• 16:12Fearne Cotton?

  Your second round of applause.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Mortimer would never have thought of that, not in a million years. Or Enfield.

• 16:25Fearne Cotton?

  Paul, what have you learned through Mina's diagnosis and learning about ADHD and being with someone with ADHD? What, what have you learned about it?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And the rest of the diagnosis.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Well, like Mina says, Mina had a very traumatic childhood and a lot of complex trauma, PTSD, that have caused her many problems. So I'm, I'm sort of always been conscious of that. She thinks I'm ADHD.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I'm not sure anymore. You're something. I don't know what.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  I'm something.

• 16:56Fearne Cotton?

  You're something.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Well, definitely something. Yeah, they haven't thought of a category yet.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  But no, what I, I think what I've, what I've really learnt is that Mina's approach, which is not to see it as the deficit and disorder within the acronym ADHD, and not to look at it like that. Not like I particularly did anyway, you know, some of my best friends are ADHD. No, so many comedians are. And in fact, that was one of the reasons why Mina said, look, we should try and do something about, you know, ADHD. And we went to see, a mate of mine was doing a stand-up slot. It was his first one, uh, at an open mic. And he was in, it was a couple of the cast of Only Fools and Horses. I did a musical of Only Fools and Horses.

• 17:41Fearne Cotton?

  All right.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  We're back again in 2027, all right? Anyway, we did, so we went to see him, didn't we? Do an open mic slot. And he was waiting, well, two of my mates were, but one of them it was his first time. And he was about six, six on the bill. And every person who came out, came out, went, hi, I'm ADHD. And then we were like, what? Every single comedian that came out started with that line. And he's going, oh, fuck, that's my set gone.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  He was gonna do, but it did make us think, my god, this, it's, you know, so prevalent. And, and so I think that's what made us, well, do the podcast and, and have come up with the title.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do wanna stress though, by saying I don't buy into the language of medicalisation and deficits. I don't mean to minimise any ADHD's experience at all, I really don't. The summit is debilitating, but again, I'm gonna come back to society not being set up for our wonderful brains. It's not that you are the problem and you are broken, it really isn't. I just think there's so much to be done, but dialogues, you know, places like this are really helping to push the conversation forward. And it is my hope that one day, through all of this that all of us are doing, we co-construct something different and that ADHD doesn't reside in a manual for mental disorders

• 19:11Speaker 01

  li- like it does now, the DSM five text revisions, because it's not a mental disorder. I, I just find it deeply offensive, is all I just wanted to say.

• 19:21Fearne Cotton?

  It seems to have also really inspired the work that you're doing with young people. When I was looking over your website earlier on in the week, there's a lot of discussion around emotional regulation, which is another thing that gets slightly misconstrued, whether it's on social media or people talking about it. What, what does that mean to you and, and what can you see within young people that do have neurodivergence?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  So the ability to self-regulate, in a nutshell, is our ability to manage our own thoughts, our feelings and emotions and responses. And it's grossly underdeveloped in many of us, in me particularly, the irony, as my then therapist would say. Well, you know, why don't you read a page out of your own books on it, you know? Because I have another meltdown.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  True, I hold it in front of her, like that, read that woman.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Our fourteen-year-old also, you know, the irony isn't lost on her. But again, it comes back to how we were co-regulated, how, how we were held emotionally as infants and children. Or, in my case, and I'm sure some of us here, we were never contained emotionally. So we now have nervous systems that are wired for stress and primed for stress and trauma. And it's really difficult to get out of that and to get into healthier habits. Again, I'm not using the language of maladaptive behaviours, because those maladaptive behaviours as children kept us bloody alive and safe in, in a, in a sea of chaos.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that's what self-reg is, it's managing how, how we respond to others, how, how we come back to equilibrium in a state of, you know, chaos. But those children, those young adults that I work with, weren't able to do that. You know, it's tough, man, but if you create an environment that is trauma-informed and it recognises that these people have come from some tough shit and I'm here to help provide a bit of safety, what happens, what I managed to create was a beautiful scenario where they looked out for each other, my students. You know, come on, man, don't do that, you know, Mrs. is looking after us, you know, she's got our backs, da, da, da.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  And it's just beautiful, it's collaborative, it's co-constructive, and that, that's missing today. So when I go back to talking about self-reg, it can't happen without being co-regulated. And those of us that haven't been co-regulated then start to draw on ways that might prove problematic for us. And, and this is why your festival is so bloody gorgeous. So I walked in dinner and I said, I felt peace.

• 21:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  It felt beautiful and instantly grounding and calming. And I, and I think we need to invest more time in our curricula, enabling our children and young adults to self-regulate. So like I was saying earlier on, prioritise wellbeing over learning, you know, in line with how the brain develops. Because if those emotional regions are being bypassed, like the brain's panic button, the amygdala, you're not gonna have much hope of tapping into those executive functioning skills.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Geography ain't gonna mean much, is it?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Ain't gonna mean shit.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Regulated.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  So, you know, make your students feel safe and then the rest will come. If you bypass that critical element, you, you're not gonna achieve much.

• 22:42Fearne Cotton?

  What about with parenting? Because I'm sure there'll be...

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Can we get back to geography, please?

• 22:46Fearne Cotton?

  Let's talk about geography.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Cows on the, on the lowlands, sheep on the highlands, that's all you need to know, alright?

• 22:51Fearne Cotton?

  That's your geography lesson for the day done. There'll be people certainly sat here in the tent and there'll be people listening at home that are parents of kids that might have a diagnosis but also might not. But they can certainly recognise that emotional dysregulation, where maybe the reaction to something is disproportionate or it could be triggered by you're out in a really busy environment, in a restaurant, and your kid just starts flaring up. What, what do you do? What's the best way to help the child? Probably not, probably not that.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  See that? Did you see that?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Did you see the provocation?

• 23:27Speaker 02

  No, I was just, I was just getting some flies away, she hit, she hit me.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  I was getting a fly off you. It's knowing...

• 23:36Speaker 02

  No flies on me, girl.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  There are, there are. Knowing your child's triggers is crucial.

• 23:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  So when you said they're kinda rightly disproportionate response, but to them it's not.

• 23:49Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  So misophonia you're referring to is massive, particularly among our neurodivergent children and adults alike. And it's knowing those triggers and trying to minimise them. It might be, okay, noise defenders, it might be fidget toys, it might be avoiding the place or, you know, going at a time that when it's quieter or something like that. Never ever reaching for first-line treatments, as in medications, as like, oh my god, that's what we need. And I've got a lot of parents saying, oh, you know, my son's just been diagnosed, but, you know, what can we do? Da, da, da, the diagnostician is pushing for medication. I'm like, but what have you tried? Well, nothing yet, but, and I'm like, well, try some other strategies first.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  And I just think, knowing, knowing your child's triggers, but also giving space for yourself as well and looking after your own mental health, however, you know, whatever that might look like. So that you're able to contain your child emotionally.

• 24:46Fearne Cotton?

  Well, that is such a good point, because I think often we think, how can I get the child to calm down? Because it's easier and then everyone, if your kid's happy, you feel happy. But you're so right, that if we're not looking after ourselves, we're already on the back foot. We're depleted, we're stressed out, we're at max capacity, we don't know, you know, what to do next because we're not feeling okay. What do you individually do to make yourselves feel all right?

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Gym, walking.

• 25:15Fearne Cotton?

  Gym, fishing.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then I've got the idiot, haven't I? Paula, no Paula, I didn't, I didn't wind, honestly, Paula, I didn't. Oh, Paula, I've fallen, oh, oh, oh, me shingles, Paula, man, oh. You know, but no, obviously I'm that, but again, the gym exercise, I know it's a cliche, but it's crucial.

• 25:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  It's crucial for you, obviously for your body, I have to do it for heart rehab stuff.

• 25:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  But mentally, if I miss it now, I'm really fine, fine, you know, disconcerting. But I don't, I mean, I don't, I didn't have Minna's traumatic upbringing, so I don't, I don't sort of fl-, I don't know, how can I say this without getting a clomp?

• 26:01Speaker 02

  I don't, I'm fairly sort of balanced really, aren't I? I don't...

• 26:08Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't, I don't get upset or angry.

• 26:16Speaker 03

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• 27:47Fearne Cotton?

  You've been really open about your physical health and your

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:50Fearne Cotton?

  your heart issues that you've had. So obviously you need to do certain things that keep you just feeling. And like, is there panic or anxiety that comes with that?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  No, well, not really. I mean, I think Bob did. Bob had

• 28:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  a lot of anxiety. My heart's disease came about after something else I'd had, which was very life threatening. And then I was being monitored afterwards and they saw that my blood pressure was raised, my blood flow wasn't right, and I needed to have some stents. So in a way, for me, that treatment was just, it was quite straightforward. And I didn't, I'd already had this thing to deal with that I'd overcome. So the stent treatment was quite straightforward, as I say. So when Bob actually had to have his stents done, I was, I sort of was his stent buddy, if you like, you know, and I got in touch and said, you're gonna be fine. And they got him in and he had to have a triple bypass, you know? Out came the old chainsaw.

• 28:50Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Bob.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Sorry, Bob, I gave you a wrong steer there. So for me, it wasn't, but having said that, the exercise for me now is sacrosanct. And I'm not very good at just saying, no, I'm, you know, I'm not listening to anyone. That is, that's my time and I'm gonna do it. But now I've got a very legitimate excuse to do it. I do make that time and that gives me, as I say, not just a physical sort of wellbeing, but makes, definitely keeps me sane up there. But, but Bob did, you know, that's a shock, isn't it? You know, if you go from some idiot like me saying, yeah, you'll be fine, you'll be in and out in a day, to having a triple bypass.

• 29:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  And there is some, obviously, I'm sort of trivialising my experience a bit because it is your heart. And so afterwards, you're always conscious, if there's any slight, you think, oh, God.

• 29:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  You know, it's not like other illnesses and diseases, it's not a slow burner. If you, you know, once your heart is compromised, you do think for a while. Is that, you know?

• 29:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  But that, as I say, that gradually with medication and exercise diminished for me. It was much worse for Bob because it was an emergency for him and he was suddenly incapacitated, whereas I was capacitated, if you like, you know?

• 30:09Fearne Cotton?

  And did you have that sort of, I don't know, slightly cliché, but rightly so moment? Going through anything health wise of, wow, this is all very precious and fragile and I wanna really live life to the full even more?

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, to an extent, I did. But as I say, I went from this other quite traumatic experience, which was very emergency operation. And then the heart thing, so it was almost like a sort of a kind of, you know, I started to go up, you know, like that. And definitely for Bob, when he started to come out of his shell and we started going fishing together, this is in real life, you know, we started something I'd, he'd wanted me to do for ages and I hadn't done. And then I thought, I better do it quick, just in case. So, you know, that we'd been mates for years, but we'd never actually been out fishing. So we started doing that. And, you know, I know fishing's very niche and it doesn't appeal to many people, but,

• 31:03Speaker 02

  but the idea that you're out in that environment and you're actually, the world is over there then for, you know, it doesn't really matter whether you, I know some people just wanna catch fish, but it's our excuse in a way for getting out into the most beautiful places. And that's what it's always done for me is like, even if I'm fishing on the canal with me dad or my mates when I was a kid. But it takes you out of the world. And I've been to some very beautiful places as well. So it's definitely been, you know, that's my escape. And then we all know the importance of getting out, out into nature, don't we?

• 31:40Fearne Cotton?

  And having a chat?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:42Fearne Cotton?

  Just having a nice chat?

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I'm not sure about that.

• 31:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  We're blokes, you know?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  I keep saying to my mates, Bob, can we just shut up? Just have some silence in the beautiful countryside, you know? And then he'd go, we'd be looking at our floats and then suddenly he'll go, what's your favourite powdered drink, Paul?

• 32:05Fearne Cotton?

  Your favourite powdered drink?

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:11Fearne Cotton?

  What a great question.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  I know.

• 32:12Fearne Cotton?

  I've never asked anyone that before. I might have to make a note in my pad, I like that. No, it's so important to have something that's outside of work, outside of the noise, that's just for you.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  But definitely for me, it's exercise, isn't it?

• 32:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Thing, really.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  It's proven to, you know, boost serotonin, endorphins, you know, clinical studies are always showing it could be more potent than even antidepressants, you know, some regards. So, and it also creates new neurons in our hippocampus, the seat for learning and memory, which is fantastic and most necessary for ADHDers like me.

• 32:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  All our guests say, say, exercise.

• 32:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  It's always, you know, some of them obviously have been like through a lot of substance abuse.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  You know?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shaun, who's Shaun?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  What's his name?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Oh, blimey. Ryder.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Shaun Ryder.

• 33:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right. Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  The poster boy.

• 33:11Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  But he says, Get on me bike now, get on me bike, it's nine o'clock in the morning, I come home about 12 hours later.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but does he, or is it not? I thought he meant a station.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  No, he means a fucking bike.

• 33:26Fearne Cotton?

  He's going out. He's having a big cycle.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  You sure?

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he does. Yeah, no, he goes, like, he does about 10 hours a day. And I think, given what he went through, you'd need, you need that.

• 33:38Fearne Cotton?

  It's a better option, cycling, a much better option.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:40Fearne Cotton?

  Another thing that I found very interesting that you've talked about in various guises on the podcast, on your website, is RSD. And this is something which is perhaps, is it a comorbidity, am I right, to ADHD?

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Don't use the language of no, co-occurring.

• 33:56Fearne Cotton?

  Get rid of that, okay. So this is something that can come along for the ride with ADHD?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not exclusive to ADHD and apologies, everyone. But again, I find this is ADHD only. It's not, it's something that can affect any one of us. Okay, it may be disproportionately those of us who have experienced trauma in childhood, adulthood, whatever, but it's not exclusive to ADHD. And it does stem from a difficulty in regulating our emotions. So, yeah.

• 34:29Fearne Cotton?

  So for anyone who's not heard that, that term, RSD?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Rejection sensitivity dysphoria. Well, who, who probably experiences RSD here? Quite a few, you know, so we're just

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Get over it, what's the matter with you?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that. Just being extra sensitive to what we might perceive as criticism or hostility. It might not even be real, it might be in our minds, but the, the pain we experience is quite visceral. And I think you might have been referring to the episode with Denise Welsh.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Where I got upset because I bought two portions of chips for my daughter on holiday, but knowing she wouldn't get lunch for another six, seven hours. And they all cussed me because I got too many chips and I had a breakdown, got physically sick.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Chip gate, we call it.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Didn't surface for a couple of days.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  We don't want two bags of chips here. No, but we don't want them, not here. Oh, fuck that.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  But, yeah, but, you know, yeah, yeah, basically.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  And you disappeared for a day.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  I did. I got quite ill and my stomach went up the spout and I was in tears and woe is me. But in that moment, I mean, it is, because you just think everyone hates you and you're rubbish and useless and you're sensitive to people's responses and behaviours. And it, and it is tough, it is. But again, that comes from the emotion regulation difficulty, that's to be worked on. It's not, every ADHD also has RSD.

• 35:59Fearne Cotton?

  Right, Mina, so if you know that you're, maybe you're in that, or that's happening, again, for anyone that's felt that or has been through it recently, or you know you're in a situation where that could be triggered, what, what would you do? Or what would you advise someone could do to just maybe shift the perspective or get themselves feeling a little bit better about the scenario they're in?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  I organised a little family meeting in the airport on the way home, just saying, look, I am very sensitive, I am sorry, I might have, you know, looked like I was overreacting to you, but I did get upset. And it's only because I care. And just talking about why you are the way you are sometimes, and also maybe, you know, stock responses and things not to do or say, like to have a go at me and shout at me even more, because it's like pouring fuel on the fire in that moment. But everyone is different and they're affected differently. They've got different triggers. So I'm always gonna come back to knowing your own triggers, being self-aware and reflective and honest enough to go, okay, this is how I am, what can I do about it? And how can those around me help me to make

• 37:05Speaker 01

  some changes that will benefit all of us? Because at the end, if you don't, you are gonna be sabotaging and undermining your relationships with these people who are probably very important to you as well. So, yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Only probably.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  You ain't completely innocent, you know? So, yeah.

• 37:25Fearne Cotton?

  One thing that people are endlessly fascinated about is the fact that you don't live together. Is that, that still stands?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, when we say that to married people, they all go, oh.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I used to find

• 37:39Fearne Cotton?

  Pure jealousy.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I used to, oh babe, I don't even have a t-shirt or a toothbrush in your house. And I'm like, fuck.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  I can't envisage sleeping next to someone.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Also, this is a very real thing. Like, I am a sensory-seeking person and, I mean, only last night, innit, baby, he had the Wimbledon on and I had the music on. He's like, "Which one do you wanna turn off?" I went, "None." So the telly's on, the music's on.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  See?

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Or at night, all my lights are on, the radio stays on.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  I gotta get out of there.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  I don't even draw the curtains. And he and my daughter, our daughter, are the opposite. So it works well for all of us.

• 38:26Fearne Cotton?

  So what, you'll do like a day in someone's house and then you're out?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  No, it's very close.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  In fact, I was thinking, it's like, been months and months and months I haven't been in your gaff.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Well, you're welcome anytime, darling.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not welcome. I never feel welcome in here, to be honest.

• 38:42Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. But why be conventional if it doesn't suit you?

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Oh, God, sod conventional. Boring.

• 38:49Fearne Cotton?

  Boring. Yeah, you've got a fun voice for you.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  I'm not trying to change the subject, because we're happily to talk about that all day long. But one thing that's come up quite a lot on the pod with our guests is, pretty well all of them, only very few wanted to rid themselves of ADHD.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, only two chose to get rid, right? Gemma Stiles and Lucy Beaumont, that hasn't aired yet.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  And Simon Day.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  And Simon Day.

• 39:18Fearne Cotton?

  And what were their reasons? Because that's really interesting.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Life's been too much of a struggle, really, really, really difficult, especially for Simon. He ended up in...

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Simon ended up in Borstal, you know, and I think with him, he's, you know, he's brilliant, he's got a brilliant mind and, you know, he's so funny and he functioned great in the far show because we could contain him a bit, but you know...

• 39:43Speaker 01

  There was an outlet for his mind.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  And it was an outlet for his mind. But when that's not there, he spins out of control and he hates himself for it, you know. So he found it very difficult. He finds it difficult and he has to deal with a lot. But he's doing, you know, he's doing brilliantly. But, you know, that's when you see the flip side. You know, some people with ADHD who've been successful, you know, they've found a path and they can flourish in that path. But if you don't find that path, so many people end up, we call it, as I'm sure you all know the phrase, this school-to-prison pipeline. And unless you find a way out or you, you know, you're helped and contained and understood, you know, and also it's quite

• 40:27Speaker 02

  of weird. Some people really liked having the label because it gave them, made them, helped them understand their behaviour or the trajectory that their life attained. Some people don't want the label. And again, there's a split. But, yeah, I mean, there would be most people who've done well despite a lot of problems and trauma and misery and, you know, difficult times, if they've found a path, they, you know, they keep it. But if you go down a different road, I'm sure you don't wanna, don't wanna keep it at all.

• 41:01Fearne Cotton?

  That's what I think is very interesting with, if you do seek a diagnosis. For, I've got, you know, many friends who have done that later in life, women, and there has been a sense of liberation, like, A, I understand myself, and also I don't have to, actually, it's the self-loathing thing, hate myself, because I don't know why. Like, one of my friends had a real issue with keeping time and there was just no way that she could keep on top of it. She tried so many different techniques and tactics and after her diagnosis, after her diagnosis, it's, she stopped hating herself because she was like, "I get it. I get myself." So it might not work for everybody, but for some

• 41:42Fearne Cotton?

  people, it can be a real gateway to getting maybe the right help they need or just understanding themselves.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  I think particularly important for children's diagnosis because of the setup of our education system, it's crushing our neurodivergent children. Yes, there are some pockets of excellent practice, I know that, but I also get the letters pretty much daily from parents begging for help because their child's again been shunted into bloody detention, isolation for forgetting equipment, forgetting homework, you know, daydreaming. And I'm just, I'm sick of it. It's just so discriminatory. So having that diagnosis, you know, can be a gateway, like you said, for greater support, greater understanding, or whatever that needs to look like for that particular child. And schools have a legal duty under the Equality

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Act 2010 to provide those reasonable adjustments. So, yeah.

• 42:34Fearne Cotton?

  And it's also a subject that we're still in real time learning about collectively. So it's gonna keep changing. And that's why it's important to have podcasts like yours where, in real time, we're getting the information, you're talking to people that are getting diagnosis and working out different ways and methods to deal with it. And that's helpful for everybody.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's important we listen to each other and we're not into these little groups that have split off and they're really hostile to one another. Well, why'd you call it, why do you have, you know, inverted commas above disorder and the D? Because I don't believe it is. That's just my belief, you know, that's how I view it. I know it's difficult for some. I don't think it's a disease. Some still call, what the, it's a disease about ADHD? Yes, it's a bloody difference. So take these things on board, formulate your own opinions that are informed, evidence-backed, and I just hope we're moving on from this spot.

• 43:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  I have to give Mina a bit of a round of applause because recently, she's started a campaign, actually, well, over the last two years, but recently came to fruition because Ofsted had included in their Prevent training the phrase that their practitioners should look out.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Oh, don't open that up.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  No, no, no. You need to talk about, you need to talk about it because it's come to a successful conclusion.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Okay, in a very tiny, quick nutshell, basically, Ofsted in its Prevent Safeguarding guidance was, quote-unquote, labelling children and young people with autism as likely extremists because of their propensity to develop special interests and because of their language and communication difficulties, right? Again, I'm condensing it because it's been bloody long and painful. They denied it, they obfuscated, da-da-da-da, I organised a campaign, got some celebs on board, loads of allies, and we handed in a letter to 10 Downing Street, Angela Rayner was on board, loads of other MPs, Lords, and they did remove the wording, they did. But the same day, Martin Oliver said that it's...

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Sir Martin.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  And I never do the sir. Why did you have to point at the sir? Said, you know, ridiculous. If only, you know, she reached out to us, it could have all been sorted out. We've never said such a thing, da-da-da-da. So I went online, said, this is all the correspondence, you know, him to me, you know, saying, "Sorry, it's staying because it is a real threat and we have to acknowledge it for safeguarding purposes." All the parliamentary questions I drafted for these high profilers, all of it. It was all denied, but it, yeah, it got removed, basically. But then The Guardian reported on it on the 5th of July and made it all about Chris Packham, who's just a baby, he's a proper star. But I kicked off

• 45:23Speaker 01

  saying, "Look, man, I instigated all of this. I've been, you know, for the two years..."

• 45:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. Come on, Mina.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  "...sort it out." And they did record it and put my name in there.

• 45:31Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  So, but yeah.

• 45:36Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  But it was extraordinary. I mean, I know Ofsted are not gonna go, "Yeah, thank you, Mina. Yeah, we were wrong," you know. They said, "Oh, it was never in the manual and we've taken it out."

• 45:51Speaker 01

  And I've got crap of everything. But, you know, we do have to stand up for our neurodivergent children. They're not a threat to anybody. They're gross and it's understood. And, you know, it just breaks my heart. So we have to fight fearlessly for them.

• 46:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Well, it's a beautiful thing that you're doing and also collectively. I absolutely love the podcast. And what a brilliant career pivot for you at this point. I love it. Who thought you'd do an ADHD podcast?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. Yeah. So strange twists and turns, life takes a bit.

• 46:21Fearne Cotton?

  It's brilliant. And it's highly entertaining as well as massively important and educational. Before we wrap up, I would love to ask you both, where is your happy place? Paul, let's start with you.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I suppose on the riverbank, you know, I would say, you know, I get lost in that world, you know. It's, I would say, yeah, I would say that, yeah.

• 46:41Fearne Cotton?

  Lovely. What about you, Dr. Mina?

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Somewhere in a nice, open field or the gym.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  A gin?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:47Fearne Cotton?

  Gym, with an M. It's a dry festival, no gin, sadly. Well, look, thank you so much for being at the Happy Place Festival. I hope you have a lovely time walking around and enjoying the whole thing. Please give it up for Dr. Mina and Paul Whitehouse.

• 47:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Paul and Mina, what a pair. I love that we all got such an insight into just their relationship and their dynamic. I love the amount of times Dr. Mina was like, "Oh, shut up." Just so brilliant. What a brilliant duo and so amazingly educational and reflective and funny. It was everything I love about doing this podcast. So thank you, Paul, and thank you, Mina. We've still got loads more to come from the festivals, so keep your eyes on your podcast feed across the next few days and on Instagram, too. We are at Happy Place Official on Instagram. In the meantime, a huge thanks again to Paul, to Dr. Mina and to you. You are the bloody best.

• 48:14Speaker 06

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• 48:30Speaker 05

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