Is It Possible To Improve Your Personality? The Science Says Yes. Here's How To Do It. | Olga Khazan

Plus other intriguing questions answered such as: should you change your personality? What exactly is a personality anyway? Olga Khazan is a staff writer for The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/author/olga-khazan/. Her new book is called Me, But Better https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Me-But-Better/Olga-Khazan/9781668012543. In this episode we talk about: The definition of personality The so-called big 5 aspects of personality and Olga's attempts to work on them How to spice up your social life The concept of conscientiousness, and how to get better at it An antidote to procrastination Tips for reducing neuroticism The role of psychedelics Practical ways to make reasonable changes in the midst of a busy life Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hello, everybody. How we doing? Today, we are going to examine a pretty intriguing set of questions. Can you change your personality? Should you change your personality? And what exactly is a personality, anyway? The science says you can change your personality and that there are evidence-based ways to do it. So today, we're going to meet a journalist who took on this very project and came back with some hilarious stories and also some very concrete takeaways. Olga Hazan is a staff writer for The Atlantic. Her new book is called "Me, But Better." Great title. In this conversation, we cover the definition of personality, the so-called "big five" aspects of personality, and her attempts to work on each of them; how to spice up your

• 1:01Dan Harris?

  social life; the concept of conscientiousness and how to get better at it; an antidote to procrastination; tips for reducing neuroticism; the role of psychedelics; and practical - and this is incredibly helpful - practical ways to make reasonable, marginal, but meaningful changes in the middle of your very busy life. By the way, if you're looking to turn down the volume on your own penchant for procrastination, we have a custom meditation for you, specifically designed as a companion to this episode. That meditation comes from our Teacher of the Month, Dan Mauricio. It's available for paying subscribers over at danharris.com. Paid subscribers also get regular live video sessions where I do a guided meditation and answer your questions.

• 1:44Dan Harris?

  In fact, there's one with me and Dan today at 4:00 Eastern. Join the party over at danharris.com. We'll get started with Olga Hazan right after this.

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• 2:57Dan Harris?

  Olga Hazan, welcome to the show.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

• 3:00Dan Harris?

  It's a pleasure. We've only spoken on the phone one time before this.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:05Dan Harris?

  But I liked your personality. And so I'm trying to figure out like why you were so hell-bent on changing your personality. I will just say, this is a bit of a digression, but just to give people a sense of what I liked about your personality, aside from being smart and curious, is you wrote a long piece in The Atlantic and you quoted me talking about doing loving-kindness meditation, and then you called me a pussy, which I thought was the funniest thing. I laughed about that for weeks, like the distinction of having been called that by a woman in The Atlantic was awesome.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  Well, yes. So I was reading your book and I came across the passage where you were talking about crying during loving-kindness meditation. And this is before I had started doing any kind of meditation. Yeah, I did think you were a pussy. But then I started doing loving-kindness meditation and I started crying during it. So it turns out that everyone who does loving-kindness meditation reveals themselves to be a pussy. So that's the explanation there.

• 4:05Dan Harris?

  Got it, got it. Well, having said that, I still liked your personality, both on the page and in our brief interaction on the phone. So I'm just curious, like what was... Really driving you to reexamine the whole thing and try to change it?

• 4:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I kind of just noticed that I was not happy and it wasn't because of any of the fundamentals of my life. So I had an interesting job, same job that I have now. I had a place to live. I had a partner or really all my needs were met. The big meltdown that prompted me to try to change my personality happened when I was in Miami in the wintertime. I just sort of noticed that I would let small frustrations kind of overwhelm me. It would be sort of all I would think about. Like I would have this perfectly fine day, but then a few small things would happen and I would just focus on those and dwell on those or I would worry about them. I would worry about what had happened, what's going to happen next. I literally was never in the present moment.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  I didn't even understand what that meant. It was just dragging me down. I mean, later I learned that this was all related to this personality trait called neuroticism. And then there were just other things in my life that I didn't like that personality change turned out to be kind of a tool to help with.

• 5:20Dan Harris?

  Sounds to me like you had like a kind of like a classic awakening experience in the sense that you realize that everything in your life by any objective measure, at least on the outside, was fine, if not great. Like you had a partner, an interesting job. You were in Miami in the middle of the winter. So you weren't suffering from a climate standpoint and yet you were consistently unhappy.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, basically. And I was not very socially connected. I didn't have a lot of friends and there was no real reason for that. I mean, it was true before COVID for me. And I just sort of was like, why is my life like this if it doesn't have to be?

• 6:04Dan Harris?

  To me, that makes complete sense. And I think many people have that experience and don't do anything about it. And it's awesome that you did. Okay, so let me ask you a foundational kind of definitional question. What is a personality?

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Personality is the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most instinctively or naturally to us. One of the researchers, Nate Hudson, that I kind of followed for the book, he would add on to this definition that personality is a tool that helps you get what you want. So more so than just describing what we like or what we are like, it actually allows you to achieve your goals. So if you want to make more friends, agreeableness can help you get there. If you want to get better at public speaking, extraversion can help you do that. In a way, it's sort of like a yes and to the original definition of personality.

• 6:56Dan Harris?

  That's interesting. I want to maybe dig in on that. Just to say, Olga is naming several of what are often known as the big five aspects of personality: conscientiousness, agreeableness, openness, neuroticism, and extraversion. We'll go deep on all of those. The two definitions, which you described as yes and, strike me a little bit as yes but, because the first part of that is like the thoughts and behaviors that come naturally to you seems to describe a default mode. And then the second part of that is, well, actually, this is the stuff you do in order to get what you want. I see the connection there,

• 7:40Dan Harris?

  and I can also see how much of this is just hardwired. You come out of the womb preferring dogs to cats, preferring chocolate to vanilla, being an introvert or an extrovert, et cetera, et cetera. So the idea that these are things you do to get what you want, there seems to be more agency implied in that.

• 7:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think the kind of missing link between those two definitions is this idea of volitional personality change. So you're right, we do come out of the womb with at least part of our personality sort of... Programmed in, so about 30 to 50% is genetic. So if both of your parents were really big extroverts, couldn't get enough of talking to people, you will probably be at least somewhat extroverted. Likewise, if they were really big introverts. But there is still a role for environment and that kind of includes both how you were raised, but also what kind of job you have, whether you're married, where you live, who your friends are,

• 8:39Speaker 04

  and some of these techniques that you can use in order to actually shape your own personality. And so it's really in that environment component that you have some wiggle room and you can actually at least adopt or influence the personality traits that you'd like to have.

• 8:57Dan Harris?

  Okay, so in answer to the question, is personality changeable? The answer is, to a certain extent, yes. And there are some aspects of the personality that are pretty hardwired and set. Like, I will never prefer chocolate to vanilla. I will never prefer dogs to cats. And that's just the kind of the way it is.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I wouldn't say that there's like certain traits that are completely hardwired and will never change. It's just that you might have like a specific set point or like kind of natural inclination towards something, but that doesn't mean that that particular thing can never be changed. So Carol Dweck, one of the researchers that I interviewed, made the point that heritability isn't the same as malleability. So even if, you know, let's say your parents are both very disagreeable, you might have a lot of disagreeableness kind of in you and you kind of might reflexively snap toward disagreeableness, but that doesn't mean that you can never be agreeable.

• 9:55Dan Harris?

  Right, so there are proclivities that are pretty strong and there is wiggle room that is really important and powerful for us to know.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, we all have like a little, I don't know, magnet that is our heredity and our genes kind of pulling us toward one end or the other of these traits. But you can also kind of pull against that magnet and shape your traits.

• 10:22Dan Harris?

  So I was thinking, and this is not some brilliant idea on my part, but I was thinking that we might go through the big five and your attempts to work on each of them. Does that sound like a good way to proceed from here?

• 10:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, that's good.

• 10:37Dan Harris?

  Okay. Where do you want to start? I was thinking extroversion.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, we could do extroversion first. So we all know what extroversion is. You've probably met an extrovert or two in your life. A lot of people identify as introverts because of their negative reaction to those extroverts. So extroverts are people who are really friendly, really cheerful, love to talk to people, love parties. They just like a lot of activity in general. For me, I scored very low on this, starting out. I scored, I think, in the 23rd percentile. This is one where it's controversial with introverts because it's become kind of an identity and a point of pride. Like, I'm an introvert, that's just who I am. The world needs to accept that. That's true to some extent.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  But for me, introversion was really keeping me from, I don't know how to put this, it was honestly keeping me from being happy because I was spending so much time on my own. I was getting way too much time by myself to recharge. And really, the research shows that you do need some human connection in order to feel your best, in order to optimize well-being, as the scientists put it. So that, for me, was really the impetus for tackling extroversion, was that I felt like having more and more me time was not really helping anything.

• 11:57Dan Harris?

  Because I know most of the people in my life are introverts. I'm actually a raging extrovert, but my wife and almost everybody on my team, I've actually run this survey, almost everyone is an introvert. So I can imagine introverts feeling defensive, having heard this, even though you yourself are one of them. Tell me if this sounds right. I can imagine that if Susan Cain, author of the seminal book Quiet and two-time guest on this show, if she were here right now, she would probably say, we should recognize there are many, many great parts of being an introvert that have been undervalued by the culture. And All human beings need human interaction, including introverts. We, now I'm speaking for her here, we just need less of it.

• 12:42Dan Harris?

  So you, Olga, were just kind of overdoing the alone time, the recharge time. But there's nothing wrong with you, Olga, not needing as much as I, Dan, do.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, even extroverts also need alone time to recharge. But introverts, you know, they probably need more of it, but that's not all they need. And I actually spoke with Sonia Lubomirsky, who has studied this a lot. And the way she kind of squares these two is that if you're an introvert and you feel that need for social connection, but you find that your social battery runs out really quickly, you could attend something and listen more than you talk. And that is still a form of extroversion that isn't quite so draining for introverts. You know, so you could go to a book club and like hear everyone else's view on the book without weighing in yourself. That still counts as quote unquote, extroversion.

• 13:37Dan Harris?

  It's funny, I was, I'm such a ridiculous extrovert that I, I have like maybe five recurring meals with different groups of people that we schedule every like two months. And I was at one of these last night with three other guys who I love. And one of the guys at the table rarely speaks. And I sometimes wonder, is he not having a good time? But then when he does speak, I realize, no, he's delighted. I just think he doesn't need to speak as much as the rest of us. And I think he's pursuing this strategy you are describing.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I know someone like that too, who like actually is the organizer of a lot of groups that I'm in. And he like brings everyone together to happy hour and makes sure that like everything is all set up and there's a table ready and all that stuff. And then we'll all gather and he won't say anything the whole time. And I just realized that that's his socializing. That's like what his deal is.

• 14:35Dan Harris?

  Right. It's almost a fetish. How did you attack this?

• 14:39Speaker 04

  So for me, I really had to sign up for stuff that I couldn't back out of because if I just said, okay, I'm going to reach out to people more. I'm going to get drinks more with people. I would just never do that. Like, I would always find a reason not to go. So I signed up for improv, sailing club, and a bunch of meetup groups that were mostly based around hiking.

• 15:03Dan Harris?

  Okay, so basically you picked stuff you liked. So the inertia was a little bit easier to overcome and pursued those.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  Uh, not quite. I actually did not like improv and I am not sure if I do still.

• 15:20Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Even though I did it for like a year.

• 15:22Dan Harris?

  Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, so let me rephrase that and we can keep this in. So improv was the, now I'm projecting as a writer myself. If I were you, improv would be the thing I picked because it would make good copy, but sound torturous. And even as an extrovert, it sounds torturous to me. But sailing and hiking, that's shit you like to do anyway. And so it was a little bit easier to sign up for.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  I actually had never sailed before, but it seemed pleasurable. Whereas improv sounded like torture and was torture for the most part. But I think I still got a lot out of improv, even though it was really, really hard for me.

• 15:59Dan Harris?

  I want to read a quote from you, and I will do this occasionally. This is a quote from the book about improv. "I detected something that floored me. I was smiling wide, without meaning to. Something about the whole exercise, even though I didn't condone it logically or frankly comedically, was just so fun."

• 16:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was just like so strange to have time in your day when you're just having fun and it's not for any particular purpose. I mean, especially before I had kids. Like, this was just something I never did.

• 16:30Dan Harris?

  So. Torture with its little moments of insight. Is this something you would recommend to other introverts as a way to stretch?

• 16:39Speaker 04

  So people have asked, like, what's the difference between just not having fun at something and feeling like it's helping you grow as a person, right? Like, it's difficult, but it's helping you grow. And I would say that to really pay attention to that end stage feeling. So for me, it was, it was a pretty consistent pattern with improv. On the way there, I was really nervous, really hoping class would be canceled. Even when I was there and before, you know, we would kind of catch up pleasantries or whatever. And then they would say, like, everyone get up and we would play a game. That moment when they said, everyone get up, I just felt like everyone could hear my heart beating. Like, it was so nerve wracking. I really hated all the games. It made me so deeply uncomfortable.

• 17:24Speaker 04

  But then it was sort of like, so it was a long class. It was two and a half hours. And toward the end, I started to like relax into it a little bit. And then almost every single time on the drive home, I felt the way that, in that quote that you just read, which is like this kind of like lightness or just kind of, I don't know, happy, kind of giggly, kind of chuckling to myself about something that happened. And to me, that was really the thing that made it feel like a worthwhile personality changing activity as opposed to just like a weird stunt.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  Because I, I did feel like my mood changed afterward, even though I was nervous about it.

• 18:04Dan Harris?

  Was part of that, that you had pushed yourself and survived?

• 18:10Speaker 04

  Maybe, but I mean, I push myself and survive a lot. You know, I mean, like a high stakes interview or some like performance reviewer. I don't know, like, there's a lot of stuff that I do that is stressful, that I kind of barely get through. But this was more like, I really do think there is something to having like a period of creativity or like. Fun and just play in your life, especially if you basically just work all the time.

• 18:39Dan Harris?

  Makes complete sense. And you know, something I've been thinking about as I've been listening to you is extraversion is such a key vector or aspect of the happy life. And again, by by extraversion, I'm using it, and I think correctly in this context, meaning like having social connection in your life is super, super important, whether you're naturally an introvert or an extrovert. And I think there are also plenty of extroverts who, because of the way our culture is set up right now, aren't getting enough social interaction. And this is, in my opinion, in my somewhat informed opinion, one of the major contributing factors to the rise of anxiety and depression in our society.

• 19:22Dan Harris?

  And so it seems like this is a thing that all of us should be thinking about whether we're introverts or not.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I did a story recently about people saying that they felt like they had enough friends, but that also that they never saw their friends. And I think that's partly because we just don't have a lot of forums, I guess, for connecting with our friends in a low stakes way that doesn't require a ton of planning. I'm not going to say that everyone needs to go to church again or whatever, but like, there just aren't these like community groups or places where people naturally go every single week or even every month and see kind of the same group of people regularly. That does make it harder to have good social connections in your life.

• 20:07Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I think the term for that is third spaces.

• 20:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly, yeah.

• 20:11Dan Harris?

  You know, I was actually having dinner with a, I do have a lot of dinner with friends, which I want to get back to actually in a second. But at a dinner I was at the other night, a pretty popular podcaster I know was saying that he, actually, his fiancee was telling me that if you want to find this guy, there's a bar that he goes to Thursday, Friday and Saturday night. He just goes either with his fiancee or by himself. He doesn't know who's going to be there, but he knows he will know a bunch of people and he just goes there. But I think that's quite a rare thing. And other societies, particularly in Europe, do a lot better at this, where there are places that you can just show up and you are habitually going there with your family, et cetera, et cetera,

• 20:53Dan Harris?

  often intergenerational and or multi-generational. And we really don't have that in our society. And so that kind of I'm going to venture a piece of advice that I might take back, but in that study that you referenced before, where people say, well, I have a lot of friends, but I never see them. In my life, I've just learned, after many years of being an extrovert who wasn't getting enough social connection because I was workaholic and still probably a workaholic, but I've fixed this aspect of it. I just got off my ass and just a few years ago and just started being super intentional about setting things up, even though it's a pain in the ass. And honestly, that is what I would recommend to other people. You know more about this. Do you think I'm on the right track?

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think you can be intentional about setting things up. And one of the things that I really had to get over for this project, but also just in life, is I used to get really in my head about, well, I've reached out to this person twice, they haven't reached back out, you know, or I set up the last two drinks and they didn't reciprocate, so that must mean that they don't like me, so I'm not going to reach out until they reach out. And I would just completely ignore all of that. I mean, read the room, and if you're like totally bugging someone who doesn't like you, don't do that. But, I mean, there's people who I hang out with pretty regularly that I'm always the one who reaches out first, and I think that's fine.

• 22:15Dan Harris?

  Absolutely. Yes, with the caveat that read the room. Many of the groups that I'm part of, I'm the guy every time saying, hey, hey, hey, when are we going to do this again? Coming up, Olga Hazan talks about how to spice up your social life. We work our way through the big five, and she has some advice from a friendship expert.

• 22:39Speaker 02

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• 23:47Dan Harris?

  Okay, so is it true, and I may be remembering this, this may be a hallucination in my own large language model internally, but is extroversion viewed as the most important of the big five in terms of having a happy life?

• 24:05Speaker 04

  I would say neuroticism, or emotional stability, which is the opposite of neuroticism, kind of edges it out. Extroversion is up there, but neuroticism is probably more important.

• 24:15Dan Harris?

  Okay, we'll get to neuroticism. I'm sure I would ace that test. I feel really, really confident about that. It's one of the few things I feel confident about. Just on a practical tip, for anybody, introvert or extrovert, who's not socializing enough, what practical recommendations do you have in this lonely era?

• 24:33Speaker 04

  So if you just want more small talk in your life, I would just start honestly chatting with the people that you run into in the course of your everyday. So the barista, the librarian, and, you know, the Amazon guy, whoever it may be. And I would actually make a statement rather than ask questions. So instead of being like, hey, how's your day going? I would just remark on something that's going on outside or something that happened to you that day. That can often be a better opener than interrogating someone, which is news to journalists.

• 25:11Dan Harris?

  Just to jump in on this, because I know you're in the middle of a list, but I'm not saying anything you don't know, but just to the audience called microinteractions and how having these little interactions throughout the course of your day can have a measurable impact on your wellbeing. Just by way of illustrative anecdote, I'm recording this at a studio in New York City where we regularly record when I'm not at my home studio. And I have really bad claustrophobia and the elevators here are really small. I didn't need it today, but sometimes I need Barry, the security guy, to ride me up in the elevator. And I saw Barry when I came in today. We caught up and he like stopped what he was doing. He was getting ready to ride me up in the elevator and he didn't need to today,

• 25:55Dan Harris?

  but we had a nice conversation. And for me, that's just like an excellent example of how awesome it can be. And I was terrible at this. I was such a frosty. I'm still naturally, my personality is naturally frosty New Englander, but over time, I've, you know, part through hearing the, the evidence and then part by getting some feedback, I've really tried to turn this around. So anyway, yes, you were listing a bunch of things we could do to be more extroverted and you started with the lowest hanging fruit. What else is on the list?

• 26:26Speaker 04

  For increasing kind of the more deep social connections in your life, I would sign up for something that recurs regularly with the same group of people and that it's hard to get out of. So it doesn't have to be improv. It doesn't have to be some crazy sport. Meetup is great because generally the same people show up on the same types of groups or same types of events. So I would just commit to something that has some sort of cadence where you can kind of plan to see the same group of faces over time because otherwise it's hard to get a good quasi friendship going if you're kind of just like chatting a little bit here, chatting a little bit there.

• 27:04Dan Harris?

  This reminds me a little bit of the work of Brene Brown, who talks a lot about vulnerability, which I never, at some point in the culture, vulnerability went from being a bad thing to being a good thing. But anyway, another word would just be like openness or realness and

• 27:22Dan Harris?

  I would argue, and I'd be curious to see what you think about this, that it's not just the quantity of social interactions, it's the quality of social interactions. And I'm not trying to make what I'm about to say happen all the time, but sometimes I track how many times somebody will say, "Well, I've never really talked about this before, or I don't know why I'm saying too much," but to me, when I know, like, all right, yeah, we're in real territory.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  Oh, totally. And this is something where I noticed when I was going on all these meetup hikes, the worst ones was where I was hiking with someone for hours and we were like, "What do you do for work? I do this. What movies have you seen? I've seen this. Where do you like to eat? I like to eat at this place and this place." And the best ones that I still remember, honestly, with other Eastern Europeans who have no filter, who were like, "Yeah, here are all the problems in my life. Here's how much I hate my mother-in-law and why. Here's why I think my son is wasting his life away. Here's like, why I divorced my husband." Like, just in the first 15 minutes. And I prefer that. Like, I would rather do that

• 28:30Speaker 04

  than small talk. So if you seek out those people who like to do the level of deep talk that you do.

• 28:36Dan Harris?

  You know, it's so interesting, because that also speaks to an interesting dynamic that I actually don't know much about and haven't done enough research into. But we are naturally drawn to people who are like us. If I'm honest, I really have cultivated a wide social network, but many of the closest male friends I have are almost identical to my brother. And they're just like, Benji Jewish guys. That's not entirely true. There are other people in the inner circle who completely do not fit that profile, but I am drawn to that type of person, for I think some pretty good defensible reasons. I love my brother, and they're also like my dad. So it's easier to be vulnerable with people

• 29:19Dan Harris?

  who are like you. And there's a real crackle that I love of being around people who I have nothing in common with. Barry, the guy who rides me up in the elevator, is from West Africa. I mean, so like, we have like, nothing in common, but we have a great time catching up. I wonder if you have any thoughts about that in terms of how to spice up your social life?

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Oh, that's interesting. It's gonna depend on every person, whether you tend to

• 29:46Speaker 04

  Like people who are exactly like you, or people who are pretty different from you. I will say that most of the research shows that friends are quite similar. They're similar on 86% of various qualities and traits and preferences and things. So, most people end up making friends with people who are quite similar to them. I will say that in the course of writing this book, I made a really good friend, who is much, much, much more agreeable and thoughtful than me. And that has been really interesting because she's also taught me a lot about agreeableness and thoughtfulness, that a disagreeable person like myself, I wouldn't have thought of it. I'm like really grateful to her because I'm like, oh, this, you're doing this and it makes me feel good.

• 30:29Speaker 04

  I should also do this for other people, including you. So, that kind of thing can be helpful, too.

• 30:36Dan Harris?

  Okay, well, let's go to agreeableness then, as we work our way through the big five here. I just want to say at the beginning, like, your crankiness, it's not just a bug, it's also a feature. You know, like, the fact that you called me the P-word in a very prominent publication, was hilarious to me. And the fact that you write with a wry sense of humor and are kind of judgmental and like, so I wouldn't want you to like sand down all those edges. And I wouldn't want anybody else to either.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  So, nobody wants to be more agreeable? Like, I'm like the only person on earth who's ever tried to be more agreeable. In the studies on personality change, people generally don't pick agreeableness as the trait that they want to change. They usually pick extroversion and conscientiousness. And I was a little bit nervous about it, too, because, you know, as a journalist, you have to be skeptical. You can't just be like, oh, my God, you're right. And, you know, concede to whatever everyone's saying. So, I was a little bit like, is this going to make me into some a softie who's gullible? And it kind of didn't. Like, I think it helped me manage my anger, especially at my husband, then boyfriend. That part of it was really good.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  And it also helped me learn how to manage my friendships a little bit better. And not necessarily just by agreeing to whatever they wanted to do. There's like a balance there with agreeableness, where you don't want to become a pushover. But true agreeableness, I would say, is not being a pushover.

• 32:05Dan Harris?

  Technically agreeable means not just that you agree with everybody, but that your warmth and empathy quotients are high.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Yes, and also that you trust people, which was the one for me that was really, really low. I actually was really high on empathy, but my trust was so rock bottomed that I actually scored low on agreeableness.

• 32:28Dan Harris?

  All right, well, let's just set trust aside for a second, because that seems like something we should come back to. But I just want to get back to your notion about true agreeability is not being a doormat, because I actually have spent a decent amount of time in my life working on my agreeability because of the aforementioned frosty New Englander propensities. And it does not mean, in my understanding, at all does not mean being a pushover, to quote Grenae Brown again, who I admire, "Clear is kind." So in your communication with people, giving clear feedback, another thing I struggled to do, even though I was also snippy, so it was a wonderful combination. And I don't want to use the past tense too much here, because I'm sure this shit still happens.

• 33:13Dan Harris?

  But giving people clear feedback, which could scan as disagreeable, but doing it in a warm and empathetic way, that's true agreeability. Would you agree?

• 33:26Speaker 04

  I would agree. So there's definitely like an element of disagreeableness where you try to get along, and so you're like, yeah, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And then it builds and builds and builds, and then you get snippy. I was prone to that one as well. So one thing I learned in the course of this, it was from this therapist who specializes in friends. All my friendships were falling apart, kind of during this time, or right before I started working on the book. And I was like, what is going on here? What do I do about this? So at one point, I had this friend who texted me, and she's like, "I need you to text me every week, or else we can't be friends anymore. I need you to text me to check on me every week."

• 34:05Speaker 04

  I don't like texting that much. Like, I don't really text very often unless it's like, let's meet here at this time. I also don't like checking in on people if it's not clear that there's something wrong with them. Like, if they're fine, I don't really feel like I need to check in on them, even if they're not fine. Like, they should just tell me and then we can talk about it. So I was just very kind of annoyed by this request. And I was like, but I thought that being a good friend meant saying, okay. So I just said, oh, sure. Of course. Yeah. Can this count as one? So she didn't react well to that. The whole thing just really, it did not go over well. So I reach out to Miriam Kiermaier, this friendship expert. And I'm like, what should

• 34:48Speaker 04

  I have done in this situation? And she really pointed out that this is where boundaries are really helpful, where you can tell someone, hey, I'm so sorry that, you know, you feel like I've been ignoring you, or I haven't been in touch as much. I am honestly not a big texter. Is there another way that we can keep in touch? And I did not do that because, again, I thought agreeableness meant agreeing. Like, boundaries are kind of the way to keep agreeableness from just turning into everyone walks all over you.

• 35:16Dan Harris?

  Yes. That is so important. To me, and now I'm wandering into territory where I'm going to seem like I'm virtue signaling, but so please excuse me. There does seem to be a gender component here. I was reading, and I was trying to find this quote in preparation for this interview, and I couldn't find it. So I don't remember who said it. But it was something to the effect of, and this was by a mental health professional. Her advice was to women, be less agreeable. And I think she was using like a narrow definition of agreeable, like, meaning stop just agreeing to everybody, stop agreeing to be a pushover. And she was citing massive disproportionality and like autoimmune diseases among women

• 35:59Dan Harris?

  and stress related diseases because women are being overly agreeable. So this, this boundaries piece seems key. And also having a capacious, proper understanding of what agreeability is seems key, given that it can be and has been weaponized against certain population groups.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, I was sensitive to that, that women are kind of expected to be agreeable. But I think the kind of pernicious version of agreeableness that is often expected of women is, is that kind of go along to get along, but sure, I'll text you as often as you want, you know? Or I'll do it, I'll volunteer, you know? I really don't think that's what it's saying. Like, I think the good parts of this trait are kind of standing up for yourself, but also doing it in a kind way and with empathy for whoever you're talking to.

• 36:50Dan Harris?

  And also, honestly, I would say that doing what you described, you did for a long time, and many people, perhaps even my wife, do this, which is like, fine, fine, fine, fuck you forever.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 37:03Dan Harris?

  So that's not actually agreeability, right? So it's socially imposed, culturally imposed, going along to get along. You know, you're gritting your teeth the whole time, and the person on the other side, who may or may not be me, might not even know that you're stepping over the line.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, so that's like passive aggression. And agreeableness really is more like assertiveness, I would say.

• 37:28Dan Harris?

  Yes, a warm, clear, kind assertiveness. You can set boundaries and be really clear. You can do, I mean, this comes up for me a lot when people are asking me, like, how do I survive in the modern political era? And I often argue, you know, like hatred, I understand it, and anger too. And it's not the cleanest burning fuel. It's better to like tap into what you care about as a motivator, including yourself, vulnerable populations you want to protect, and even to a certain extent, the people you disagree with. But you can take really firm action from that place. You could do all the shit you would otherwise have done. You're just not doing it with all of this toxicity running through your veins.

• 38:13Dan Harris?

  Does all of that track for you?

• 38:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so. And I mean, the fact that the country is so fractured and at odds came up a lot for me in the work on agreeableness. I mean, my parents like watch Russian TV 24/7 and are huge supporters of Vladimir Putin.

• 38:32Dan Harris?

  Sweet.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  And then I'm from Texas, so a lot of people I know are Trump supporters. Some people from my hometown are like actual J6ers.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  There's not a way for me to like just never talk to those people again. Right. They're gonna be a part of my life because anytime I go back to Texas, I'm gonna interact with Trump supporters and/or my parents. I kind of had to figure out a way to have those people be in my life, to interact with them and not to have everything turn into either a fight or me like agreeing with January 6th, which I don't.

• 39:05Dan Harris?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, that's why I think this agreeableness thing like it's got a PR problem.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:12Dan Harris?

  But properly understood, and this is why it's in the big five, like warmth and empathy. It's a kind of enlightened self-interest. Like it improves your relationships, which makes you happier. But again, it's not about saying yes to shit you shouldn't say yes to. Okay, but you also said part of agreeability is trust.

• 39:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:34Dan Harris?

  And so that's actually an area where I'm actually less confident because how wise is it to trust other people? And how often should you do that?

• 39:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that's a really tough question. I don't know. I mean, honestly, like trust but verify is probably the smart way to go on this. But what helped about this chapter that I was working on and kind of the whole book is that I was just in all of these programs and groups and clubs with other people. And a lot of them did involve a lot of like sharing, personal struggles and like personal challenges. You know, in my meditation group, there was like someone with chronic pain and like people like dealing with job stuff and there's like a new parent. So I just got to know a lot of people with a lot of different challenges

• 40:31Speaker 04

  that were similar to mine, maybe different in degree. And I think that did kind of increase my trust in. Humanity in a weird way, even though technically for my job, I'm not really allowed to trust.

• 40:45Dan Harris?

  Right, right. Okay. Maybe that's why I was getting hung up on this too, because I have a background as a journalist. But you know, as you're speaking, I realized actually one spin on this that lands for me is, well, a couple, actually. One is that you were in these groups and people were being vulnerable and there's a certain amount of trust involved in opening up in that way. And it is worth taking a risk once in a while to have the trust that you can say something that's revelatory to somebody and you don't know how it's going to be received. So running that kind of experiment once in a while, which can pay off really because it can deepen your relationships.

• 41:27Dan Harris?

  That involves a kind of trust. Similarly, there's a great phrase that I heard from Becky Kennedy, the popular podcaster and social media personality who talks a lot about parenting. There's LGI and MGI, the least generous interpretation and the most generous interpretation. And so this isn't about blind trust, but like just running the thought experiment when somebody pisses you off or you're questioning their motives, like what would be the most generous interpretation of this? It's not to say that you should take it on faith, but like just to at least open your mind to it. That's what's coming up for me as I'm listening to you talk about trust. How does that go down with you?

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's right. And as a reporter, you see a lot of the worst of humanity, like you do. I mean, you do interact with people who are lying to you. You are reporting on bad things and bad people. You do get a lot of evidence that some people are not trustworthy. And I think for me, what was interesting about this was that I sort of gathered a lot of evidence that people are trustworthy. So I don't go to church or I'm not religious, as might be obvious at this point. I'm not part of any community groups or anything like that. So I actually like, I realized that I never interacted with people in a positive way.

• 42:44Speaker 04

  Like it was all just my immediate friends and we would get drinks together, my coworkers, and we would talk on Slack and that was it. And so to kind of have this experience of like, most people are just kind of bumbling through. Sometimes they make mistakes and sometimes they say things that are kind of stupid or not correct. But most people are just kind of trying to get through the day. I think that was kind of an important realization for me.

• 43:08Dan Harris?

  Yeah, and I will say something that's maybe not going to be popular with my own audience, but like, I can apply that to the Jan Sixers from your neighborhood. Like, they live in an information environment in which they thought they were taking a patriotic act. I don't agree.

• 43:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:23Dan Harris?

  And I can have compassion for it. And I can do both of those things simultaneously, and that's okay.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's kind of where I landed with the Jan Sixers from my hometown. Honestly, like, if you do talk to them, they thought President Trump wanted them to do that, and they really like him. And that was the conclusion that they came to. I don't, like, excuse it now, or I'm not like, oh, you shouldn't face any consequences. But, I don't know, it made me see people kind of more as whole people, I guess.

• 43:54Dan Harris?

  Absolutely, and I think that's the key. Nobody's saying, no consequences, no boundaries. We're just saying that you can impose consequences and set boundaries without vilifying people and putting them in the bad bucket forever. It's just, it's not seeing the whole thing.

• 44:15Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Olga talks about conscientiousness, and some things that may surprise you, an antidote to procrastination, how these tips that we've been talking about apply to neurodivergent people, the most important of the big five, some tips for reducing neuroticism, we talk about psychedelics, and we pull all the way back and talk about practical ways to make reasonable changes on all of this stuff in the middle of your-

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• 45:17Dan Harris?

  All right. So we've gone through two of the big five, the big five aspects of personality and your attempts to change your scores on each of these. Let's go to conscientiousness. What is that? And what did you do to boost your own conscientiousness?

• 45:30Speaker 04

  So conscientiousness is just getting shit done. It is being super organized, being on time to everything, being really productive, staying on task, not prioritizing. These folks get up really early. Their houses are super clean. These are those kinds of people who are super annoying and who also are never running late for a meeting or anything like that. And I was actually really high on this trait starting out and I'm still high. So I mostly interviewed other people who increased unconscientiousness.

• 46:01Dan Harris?

  Well, I'm very high on conscientiousness. I actually dragged my ass out of bed at six in the morning, went to a crazy workout group this morning. So I'm super tired as we're having this conversation. And I have a deep suspicion that our high marks on conscientiousness are pretty deeply linked to our high marks on neuroticism.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Okay, so I have asked this question of so many personality psychologists. There's no correlation there.

• 46:28Dan Harris?

  Really?

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, people who are high on neuroticism are not high on conscientiousness. I think a bunch of journalists are just high on both and they're like, they must be related. Like, it's my secret. But no, there's like scientifically, there's no link there.

• 46:46Dan Harris?

  Okay, we'll get to neuroticism in a second, but let me just stay with conscientiousness. You ended up speaking to a lot of folks who were less conscientious, even though you were doing okay in this category. What can one do to boost one's conscientiousness if this is an area of struggle?

• 47:02Speaker 04

  Conscientiousness is really almost kind of one of the simplest ones to grow on because what you really have to do is like make the Google calendar and make the to do list and check it and leave 15 minutes early and put your keys in the same spot all the time. So none of this stuff is that. Mind blowing, but the issue that the people that I interviewed ran into is that they didn't kind of naturally know to do this stuff. It kind of didn't occur to them because they had never done it before. It was like one of those things where if you've never done it, you kind of don't know how to do it or why you should. And something that really seemed to play a role for all the folks that I talked to is this concept called episodic future thinking,

• 47:45Speaker 04

  which kind of just is like a fancy term for like visualizing very specifically the outcome that you want. And maybe not even like the outcome, but just like the scenario that you're setting yourself up for. So if it's like getting some presentation for work done, it would be like visualizing yourself delivering the presentation, everyone kind of clapping at the end, ordering from the deli afterward. You know, what outfit are you going to wear? Like how nice it will feel to like finally be done and have your boss be pleased with you. So having these kinds of like big picture visions of a positive future, or actually even a negative future, like what'll happen if you don't do it?

• 48:29Speaker 04

  That can really motivate you to take those incremental steps of conscientiousness. Because actually, like most of conscientiousness is really tedious. It's not very fun and that tends to be why people don't like to do it.

• 48:42Dan Harris?

  So this episodic future thinking is kind of the antidote to procrastination?

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Because really no one like wants to make the PowerPoint slides and no one wants to read more pages of the law textbook. And no one like wants to go jogging at 5:30 a.m. But having kind of a broader goal that you're working toward, that you can link those micro tasks to is something that a lot of people I talked to found motivating.

• 49:12Dan Harris?

  What about ADHD and the neuro spicy? Those are folks who have challenges, deep neurological challenges with executive function. Does this advice work for people in that category?

• 49:27Speaker 04

  It's actually like especially for people in that category. So a lot of ADHD is just like a very, very low conscientiousness. Very, very severe levels, maybe not, but low conscientiousness and ADHD are kind of very similar. And a lot of the strategies to help people with ADHD are basically just versions of the advice that you would give someone for conscientiousness.

• 49:50Dan Harris?

  Interesting. I have a very close friend, a meditation teacher, Jeff Warren, who has pretty severe ADHD. And he's always kind of finding ways to like bolster his prefrontal cortex by like either having a technological fix or hiring the right person to sort of outsource, either outsource or support some of the weaknesses in his own brain functioning. Does that sound like it lines up with what you learned in this area of your research?

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Oh, totally. And that's like completely allowed. I mean, most people use technology to help them stay on task. This one woman, Julia, that I interviewed, she really wanted to start her own business and did not know how to get there. So what she really did is, I mean, I think she uses Todoist, which is like a to do list app. She uses a calendar. She has like a whiteboard with everything written on it. She time boxes stuff. I mean, she uses a lot of different tools to kind of stay on task. And that's not, not conscientiousness. That is itself a form of conscientiousness.

• 50:56Dan Harris?

  All right. Let's move on to neuroticism, which apparently, as you established before, is the most important of the big five in terms of like its impact on the quality of your life. And this is where I haven't taken a personality test, but this is where you say you scored very high and I'm really confident this is like the one test I can ace. What is neuroticism? Let's just start there. What is neuroticism technically?

• 51:24Speaker 04

  Neuroticism is depression and anxiety. It is feeling negative, negative thought spirals, worrying, being labile in scientific terms. So just kind of like small things happen and you really fall to pieces. Anything under that category.

• 51:42Dan Harris?

  How was this showing up in your life beyond ruining trips to Miami?

• 51:47Speaker 04

  It was ruining my whole life. I mean, it was just sort of worrying all day, not sleeping at night because I was like waking up and worrying. I couldn't decide whether to have a baby or not because I was so nervous about the postpartum period in particular. I thought I would be a bad mom and that it would just be like so terrible. So inability to make decisions, crippling insomnia, constant worry. And then just like when good things did happen, I never savored them. It was just like on to the next thing.

• 52:19Dan Harris?

  I remember seeing you on Twitter, sort of publicly wringing your hands about like whether to have a baby. I mean, you really wrestled with it. You now have one or two?

• 52:29Speaker 04

  I have one.

• 52:30Dan Harris?

  Congratulations. That's awesome.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 52:32Dan Harris?

  Okay. So what did you do about this?

• 52:34Speaker 04

  So the answer, as you know, is basically mindfulness.

• 52:38Dan Harris?

  It's so annoying.

• 52:39Speaker 04

  In all of its forms. Yeah, I know. Every article that's like the one trick you can use to feel happier and it's always meditation.

• 52:48Dan Harris?

  So say more about it.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  Okay. So I really did not want to meditate because I, every anxious person hates meditation starting out. So I started with a bunch of stuff, like I was kind of doing like self-guided stuff. I did, I used your app a little bit, in particular Sharon Salzberg's meditations. And I would try to meditate kind of on my own. I went to like one of those like sensory deprivation tanks. That was kind of a bust. I tried to work through this app called Unwinding Anxiety that is mindfulness, but without meditation.

• 53:24Dan Harris?

  That's Dr. Judd Brewer, who's been on this show many times.

• 53:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. That like kind of worked, but mostly just for panic attacks for me, which panic attacks were like one small drop in the neuroticism bucket for me. So finally I signed up for MBSR, which is, you are probably familiar with.

• 53:41Dan Harris?

  Yeah, but let the people know.

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Sure. Okay. So MBSR, mindfulness-based stress reduction. And this is a, I think, 10-week class where you meditate for 45 minutes a day. And then every week there's a two and a half hour class about kind of like Buddhism light concepts. Yeah.

• 54:02Dan Harris?

  I can imagine people listening to that. I mean, my audience is has a lot of meditators, but I was think also a lot of aspiring meditators or I feel shitty that I'm not meditating type of folks. And so that's a big commitment, 45 minutes a day. And then you go to the class on top of it.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was a huge commitment. I think the first day of the class, people were like, I can't do this. Like, I have kids, I have a job, I can't do 45 minutes a day. And the teacher was just like, yeah, 45 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, just respect feeling overwhelmed.

• 54:37Dan Harris?

  That's actually not a bad example of a firm agreeability.

• 54:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, there was always just like, if you didn't like something, it was like, yeah, you don't like it. Yeah, that's a feeling that you're having.

• 54:55Dan Harris?

  So did you actually do 45 minutes a day?

• 54:58Speaker 04

  I did.

• 54:59Dan Harris?

  And has it created an abiding habit for you?

• 55:02Speaker 04

  Okay, so I would say it created an abiding habit until I had a baby.

• 55:07Dan Harris?

  Okay, totally.

• 55:09Speaker 04

  I have to be honest, and I know that you write in your book that not having time is not a good excuse. But after Evan was born, I really just did not have time to do anything and meditation fell off. It showed I like, I really, my anxiety went back up and I kind of, I fell off the wagon.

• 55:24Dan Harris?

  Can I just clarify that for a second? Not having enough time is an excuse, and it is a good excuse and is very common. And you can do just a little bit once in a while in order to keep your head in the game. So like a minute daily ish. I think that the biggest exception to this is new mothers. Because, you know, I've lived with a new mother, it is just so, and you know, new fathers too. But let's be honest, the bulk of it often falls on the mom. So I have so much empathy, or maybe compassion would be the better word for that situation. And I would just say, like, if you don't have enough

• 56:07Dan Harris?

  time, first of all, give yourself a break and like, that's cool. Like, maybe now is just not the time. And you can also just do little bits every once in a while, you know, like, those moments where you're feeding the baby or walking the baby, you can still tune into like, whatever, the raw data of your sensations and meditation. And then every time you get distracted, start again. So does that sound a little bit more user friendly?

• 56:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of spending time with the baby is kind of meditative for me because we don't really like look at our phones when we're with him because the second we look down, he's like gonna go eat the garbage or something. And so we spend a lot of time just kind of like watching him do stuff.

• 56:51Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  Or just like, kind of like gazing at him. That is like kind of the closest to meditation that I get these days. But it is sometimes kind of a little bit meditative, I would say. And then last night, I was actually, I was reading him a book about taking deep breaths when you get mad. And I was like showing him how to breathe deeply and I was like, he kind of did it too. So we kind of like did a little breath work together at bedtime, anyway.

• 57:20Dan Harris?

  Many people say X or Y activity is meditative and I sort of give them a break on that. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, you know, from a mindfulness perspective, if you're not like paying attention, you know, in a quite deliberate way. And then every time you get distracted, you start again. You may be achieving flow or you may be in a state of peace and calm, but it's not necessarily meditative the way a Buddhist would describe it. But what you describe of like, actually, I'm gazing at my child and I remember those feelings. And I still do it to the extent that he'll let me gaze at him ever as a 10-year-old boy. Actually, you are in your senses in those moments.

• 58:04Dan Harris?

  You're in your visual senses and your feelings of whatever feelings of warmth or annoyance are coming up. That to me scans actually as genuinely meditative.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  Well, that's good. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of as close as I get. I'm trying to get back into some of the types of mindfulness that I enjoyed, like yoga and like walking and things. And now that he's getting a little bit older and I'm not breastfeeding anymore, which is like the key thing keeping me from being able to do anything.

• 58:29Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I get it. As a neurotic person, having done a significant amount of research on how one can improve in this regard, what would you say to the listeners about how they can reduce their neuroticism?

• 58:45Speaker 04

  So I'm just the kind of person who I need like mantras, like I need like kind of little phrases to go to whenever I'm getting really in a spiral. And some of the most helpful elements of this actually came from that weird little class where she taught us like little Buddhist concepts. So something that I had noticed, well, my whole life, is that I would get really angry at myself when things didn't go quote unquote, right? If some work assignment didn't go well, or a bad performance review, or a story didn't get very much traffic, or, these are all work ones, but I don't know, I had a party at my house and it seemed like people didn't have fun. But it was smaller stuff, too.

• 59:29Speaker 04

  Like, I got stuck in traffic and was slightly late, meeting someone for coffee or something like that. I would have this, like, a lot of anger at myself and kind of a lot of self-blame. And actually, a lot of the concepts from Buddhism helped me overcome that, or just to accept that there is a lot of uncertainty in life and that you can't take responsibility for every single thing that happens. And it was actually something from your book that was really helpful. And it was a quote from David Axelrod. Oh, yeah. I love this book. The political consultant, which is all we can do is everything we can do. And I actually tell myself that a lot because to me, it is such a good way of accepting

• 1:00:12Speaker 04

  the fact that like, you have to work really hard. Like, in this industry, in a lot of different industries, there's just no way to stop striving and be a Buddha and just sit on a mountain all day. You have to like, really put in the hours and work super duper hard. But at a certain point, that's all you can do. You cannot make certain things happen, even if you've really put in the hours. And to me, that was like, I know it sounds dumb, but that was like, kind of mind-blowing.

• 1:00:38Dan Harris?

  It blew my mind, too. There's a reason why I put it in the book and I emailed him and asked for permission to use it because he had said it in an off the record session. There's another articulation of the same sentiment, often attributed to Teddy Roosevelt. And I'm not going to get the words exactly right, but it's something like, "Do what you can with whatever you've got, wherever you are." And it's amazingly helpful professionally, but also, again, in turbulent political times when people feel so helpless and hopeless. Like, there's something you can do. It may not even be related to the problem, but there's some action you can take. Here's another related slogan that would fit in the same category, which is, "Action absorbs anxiety," that you can, knowing you've done what you

• 1:01:22Dan Harris?

  can do, will help you sleep at night, whatever's worrying you.

• 1:01:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's actually Tracy Dennis Tawari, another anxiety researcher that I talked to. She kind of made the point that like anxiety, you know, it's gonna come up, you're gonna feel anxious sometimes, but it's kind of what you do with that anxiety that matters. So she's like, "Yeah, by all means, like, make a to-do list of everything that you're worried about and what you're gonna do in order to address it, and then put it away and go back to sleep." Like, you don't need to, you know, stay awake dwelling on these same anxieties, but use it to take action toward the outcome that you want and then acknowledge that at a certain point, you can't control everything.

• 1:02:06Dan Harris?

  I want to make a quick point before we move to the fifth of the big five. The point I want to make is that many of the other things that we've discussed already, like working on other aspects of the big five, I think, and in my experience, can help a person and have helped me reduce my neuroticism, most especially working on the quality of my relationships. And so I'll give you another slogan that I love that is also not mine, which is "Never worry alone." And this is deeply consonant with how we evolved. And so, working on extroversion and agreeableness, again, properly understood, can really help ease the nervous system. Okay. Final of the big five, openness. What does that mean specifically?

• 1:02:53Speaker 04

  Openness is this nebulous trait that has a bunch of stuff that writers and creative people really like. It includes both creativity and verbal fluency, so being good with words. It includes kind of imagination, liking kind of abstract art and unusual music and movies, liking to travel, liking anything kind of new and avant-garde, just being kind of down for whatever.

• 1:03:22Dan Harris?

  So, being down for whatever, in terms of new experiences, in terms of radical, interesting ideas, that's what you're referring to specifically?

• 1:03:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, all of the above, new ideas, new experiences, and even actually, political liberalism like is correlated with this trait, because if you think about it, like liberals have historically been the group that are more like okay with new changes in society and kind of new ways of living.

• 1:03:52Dan Harris?

  Although it's interesting, I was listening to like a center-right podcast today and they were talking about how there's a decoupling happening between conservatism and being right-wing, because actually, there's so much that's happening on the right-wing these days that is not conservative, it's radical and new and disruptive.

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I take that point. I think that some of those studies were probably done in like the Clinton era. So yeah, that's probably true.

• 1:04:20Dan Harris?

  Let's give those Gen Sixers their respect. They were definitely open to new ideas.

• 1:04:28Dan Harris?

  All right, so what did you do to boost your openness? And were you open?

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  So I was already really high on openness when this started, and you actually don't want to be too, too high on openness, because the people who are like way on the far end of openness actually can kind of veer into kind of psychosis.

• 1:04:51Speaker 04

  Because if you think about it, like if everything could be true, right? Then like, nothing is not true. And so it's, you can see how it could cross over into some mental health stuff. But the big thing that has been found to increase openness is psychedelics. I mean, obviously, not advocating that people do psychedelics. Please, like, do it in a controlled way with, you know, doctors and stuff. But that is, I mean, according to studies, the way that consistently boosts openness.

• 1:05:20Dan Harris?

  I want to get practical in the end here. We've been pretty practical throughout. But I can imagine people at this point in the conversation are thinking, all right, well, Olga had a book contract and was very committed to doing all of these things. How do I make changes in like a reasonable way, given my busy life?

• 1:05:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, so you definitely don't have to become an improvisational actor and go surfing and do all the stuff that I did in order to change your personality. I would start by either taking a big five personality test. You can do it on personalityassessor.com. That's the site that I use that was created by one of the researchers whose work I followed. Or you can just find a different one on the internet. Or you can just think about areas in your life where you feel like you could use a little bit of an upgrade. So do you not have that many friends? Do you feel like you have a lot of conflict with your loved ones? Do you feel like you are really anxious all the time? And then I would maybe try one or two of the activities from the book on, you know, a scale that feels manageable.

• 1:06:24Speaker 04

  So for meditation, NDSR is a huge commitment. But, you know, the people who were in my class did have jobs and kids and stuff. It has been shown to work basically as well as Lexapro. So that's one where if you really, really want to reduce neuroticism quickly, that's, you know, a good way to go. But you could also do shorter meditations, you know, as you mentioned, five minutes, 10 minutes. Loving kindness is a great one to start out with.

• 1:06:52Dan Harris?

  Even though you may get called names in the, in the, in the paper.

• 1:06:56Speaker 04

  People will call you a pussy, but that's okay. Most of the activities that have been shown to change people's personalities in the research studies that I, that I looked at only take a few minutes a day and they're not kind of huge commitments. It's something like gratitude journaling or exercising for a few minutes or saying hi to someone or getting coffee with someone. These aren't like super time consuming. The key is to just do them consistently over a long period of time.

• 1:07:25Dan Harris?

  I have two questions I habitually ask toward the end of an interview. One is, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we haven't gotten to?

• 1:07:33Speaker 04

  Yes, there's one point that I want to make, which is that people sometimes ask me if they should change their personality so that other people will like them better. And I think it will help other people like you better, but the most important reason to change your personality is that it will make you happier. So it's a selfish thing to do, but I see that as a good thing. It's something that will enhance your life and your relationships and your happiness level and not necessarily the people around you.

• 1:08:01Dan Harris?

  Yeah, again, to use this phrase enlightened self-interest.

• 1:08:04Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:08:05Dan Harris?

  You know, yes, the happier you get, the easier you will be to be around. Okay, great point. Final point, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book, the book you wrote before it, where we can find your work on an ongoing basis, anything else you want us to know about, et cetera, et cetera?

• 1:08:22Speaker 04

  Sure. So I'm Olga Hazan. My book is Me But Better. You can find it wherever books are sold. You can find the rest of my writing at theatlantic.com where I'm a staff writer. I also have a newsletter that's mostly about personality at olghazan.substack.com. And my previous book is called Weird and that's also available wherever books are sold.

• 1:08:43Dan Harris?

  Olga, great to spend time with you. Thank you for doing this and congratulations on the new book.

• 1:08:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

• 1:08:55Dan Harris?

  Thank you again to Olga Hazan. Awesome to talk to her. Don't forget, there is a guided meditation specifically tailored to this episode. It really digs into the issue of procrastination. It comes from our Teacher of the Month, Dan Mauricio, and it's only available to paid subscribers over on danharris.com. If you become a member, you'll get access to our growing library of companion podcast meditations and all the future meditations that'll be coming down the pipe. And you also get access to these live guided meditation sessions that I've been doing and that our Teachers of the Month are going to start doing. In fact, we have one today at 4:00 Eastern over on Substack. Details at danharris.com.

• 1:09:37Dan Harris?

  Finally, just to say a quick thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

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• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  Get started at safeguardveterans.net. Click on Community Organizations. Safeguard Veterans is a 2026 pilot research program funded by the Department of Veterans Affairs.