"Life's too short for bad sex!" Grace Campbell is speaking up about pleasure and shame

Comedian Grace Campbell used to call herself crazy before anyone else could get in there first. Now, Grace wonders whether telling herself this story was affecting how other people interacted with her... In this chat, Fearne and Grace explore how your inner self-talk will impact how others perceive you. So, how has Grace re-framed her ADHD, OCD, and anxieties? And given Grace has spent a lot of time seeking male validation, how has she become ok with so many men finding her “annoying”? Grace also reflects on her childhood, growing up amongst the political elite thanks to her dad Alastair Campbell. She explains how she learnt to speak up for herself by watching the powerful men around her. Plus, why life is too short for bad sex and a lack of orgasms! You can get your tickets for Grace’s stand up tour here https://www.aegpresents.co.uk/event/grace-campbell/?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPOTM2NjE5NzQzMzkyNDU5AAGnFYExKCMHZj_rt2mM-jrqVWMIPnHrHLJ7AxAB-AiYxAhTF2dfJ6ohKKo4kgg_aem_YWdncwDFp_Wn0dA11xl5biu5o04P&brid=YWdncwEZOaBxLNQJCdaqJvvoSN2i&utm_id=97760_v0_s00_e0_tv3! If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Gillian Anderson https://pod.fo/e/26738b Florence Bark https://pod.fo/e/17fbd0 Miranda July https://pod.fo/e/27b9a0 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that wants you to be no one but yourself. Today, I'm chatting to Grace Campbell.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  When women get to that age, like Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin's age, historically, they are deemed as invisible to the media. Like, we don't want to see them anymore. We don't want to hear from them anymore. And then you have these unbelievable women who just like, don't give a fuck anymore because they're not appeasing to the male gaze. They're not appeasing to like, gatekeepers anymore. They don't have to because they've like, they've passed that. I want to be that now. Why are we caring so much about like, what people online say about us? Or like, what men think about us? Or whether or not we're being like, too much or too anxious or too emotional? We're wasting so much time.

• 0:46Fearne Cotton?

  Now, this is a podcast episode that has been on the cards for ages. First of all, I started off just being a fan of Grace's. I think we started initially DMing each other on Instagram and I was like, "She's just cool and clever and funny and I love her stand-up." And then we got to meet in real life. We were both at the Albert Hall, which is, if you haven't been, a beautiful, very historic venue in the heart of London. It is the most gorgeous venue to see a music show at because it's completely round. So wherever you sit, you're just in the gig. And we were both there invited by the one and only brilliant Gillian Anderson, who by the way, has been on an episode of Happy Place a while back.

• 1:30Fearne Cotton?

  So do go scroll back after this and listen to it because she was fucking amazing. Anyway, neither me or Grace could believe we'd been invited to this amazing night that Gillian had put on. It was for her book Want. And we both got the opportunity to stand up on stage. Grace to do stand-up and I got to read out a sexual fantasy, an anonymous sexual fantasy from Gillian's book Want. And it was one of the best crowds I have ever talked in front of. They were so up for it. It was like a sort of giant hen slash stag do. Like, everyone was up for a laugh. It was just joyous. It was shame busting because we were talking about sex. It was just one of my favourite nights of the year.

• 2:13Fearne Cotton?

  And Grace did an amazing stand-up routine bang in the middle that had us just all on the floor. We were literally crying with laughter. So I bumped into Grace in the corridor and we had a massive hug, like we were sort of long-lost mates and just a brilliant chat, straight in at the deep end with like all the goss. It was so fun. And I was like, we've got to get you on the podcast. She's like, get me on the podcast. So here we are. Grace is just an utterly brilliant stand-up comedian and writes a lot about her relationships with men, with sex and with her mental health too. She's also very honest about feeling shame in the book that she wrote during the pandemic. It's called Amazing Disgrace, which I have to say, I loved reading. It helped

• 2:55Fearne Cotton?

  me a lot actually, in many ways, sort of like rid shame in certain areas of my life. It was bloody helpful book.

• 3:05Speaker 02

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• 3:34Speaker 03

  Help Ice Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem.

• 3:38Speaker 04

  I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help Ice Sexed My Boss.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Just search Sexed It.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 4:07Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  I'm having my little bag here to sort of.

• 4:34Fearne Cotton?

  Uh, right, we're talking about this bag.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  My emotional support bag.

• 4:37Fearne Cotton?

  Grace Campbell, everyone should have. Not that this podcast is a scary one, but to have an emotional support bag is no bad thing.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, this is not a scary podcast, by the way. I feel very calm. I feel very at ease with you. But I just bought this bag and I'm obsessed with it.

• 4:52Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. It's gonna hold nothing, but it looks adorable.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  It's gonna hold poo bags for the dog.

• 4:59Fearne Cotton?

  Practical.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Because the other day, fun, I was walking my dog, and this is how much of a stickler I am for people not picking up dog shit. I was walking my dog. I'd forgotten dog poo bags. She did a shit. I was like, I can't, I'm in my area. I don't want someone to see that I've not picked up my dog shit. I took my bra off and I picked the shit up with the bra and I threw the bra in the bin. And I really hope that karma comes back for me.

• 5:24Fearne Cotton?

  That cannot be real.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  That is true. It was a very cheap bra. It was one of those ones that's like, you know, like it was from H and M. It was like, not like a padded bra.

• 5:34Fearne Cotton?

  Like, I wear nearly the same bra every day because it's just the bra. It's the one that I know it fits, it works. I'd be devastated to lose that bra.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  This one was not one of those ones. It was, it actually was a bit small for me and sometimes I was like, if I'm wearing a tight top, it looks like I have four tits. So like, it was.

• 5:50Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  But then, right, and then this is because I'm so scatty, I walked past the pet shop and I thought, oh, I should buy poo bags. Thought of something else, carried on. She then did another shit, right?

• 6:03Fearne Cotton?

  The knickers are off.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  And then I stripped down, no, and then I went into a bookshop on Blackstock Road and I was like, too polite to just ask for a plastic bag.

• 6:17Fearne Cotton?

  You're right.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Bought a book and then said, oh, can I get a bag for the book?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Bought a book about mindfulness.

• 6:26Fearne Cotton?

  Handy though.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Very, and it was actually a great book, really changed my life. But then was like, oh, actually, can I get a plastic bag? And it was this tiny little book that I bought and she was like, okay. I was like, my dog's done a shit outside.

• 6:38Fearne Cotton?

  Sorry, you'll never forget poo bags.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Never forget poo bags.

• 6:40Fearne Cotton?

  How can you, I mean, it's adorable.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Not with this, I know.

• 6:42Fearne Cotton?

  I sort of want one, I don't even have a dog.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I should have got you one actually, because they had like blue, they had green.

• 6:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, green.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I wish I got you on.

• 6:48Fearne Cotton?

  Next time.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I'll go back there and I'll get you on.

• 6:50Fearne Cotton?

  Because after we've done this podcast, we are diarising to have a drink of a margarita of sorts.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  I can't wait.

• 6:57Fearne Cotton?

  And doing an off mic version of this.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Because the first time we met was at the Royal Albert Hall.

• 7:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  And it was electric.

• 7:03Fearne Cotton?

  It was electric.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Literally, and we've got photographic, we can look back one day and go, that's where we met. It was crazy, the energy was crazy.

• 7:11Fearne Cotton?

  And do you know what I loved? I can't do small talk, I'm not interested. I don't really care how your day was, I don't want to know about where you've spent a holiday. We just went straight in to the deep end.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  That's the only conversations I can have.

• 7:25Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:26Fearne Cotton?

  I want to go deep straight away and you told me the thing and I was like. And you know what I'm talking about.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  But we were also in such a public space, but you know when you like, that was, I'm so glad that the feeling is mutual.

• 7:38Fearne Cotton?

  It is.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  It was a really crazy, energetic moment there. And I was like, whoa, like, we are like meant to hang out.

• 7:47Fearne Cotton?

  We're meant to hang out. It's my favourite feeling.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Same.

• 7:50Fearne Cotton?

  Especially, right, I'm in my mid 40s and there's all this thing of like, oh, you, you don't meet people as you get older. You can meet anyone at any time and have a new amazing mate.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Which is really fun.

• 8:02Fearne Cotton?

  It's the best.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  It's so fun.

• 8:04Fearne Cotton?

  This is why, right, I've just done a talk before this and it was all about.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Congratulations.

• 8:09Fearne Cotton?

  It was all about what my sort of goals are. And I thought, do you know what, the best thing about this job and the only thing I actually care about at this point is that I get to meet interesting people and chat. And in no, well, very few jobs would I get to so frequently meet someone and sit like this and have a chat. Unless you're maybe like a therapist or something, I don't know.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  But you can't hang out with your clients when you're a therapist.

• 8:32Fearne Cotton?

  You can't, I can.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  You can't be like, hey, I love your vibe, should we go for a spicy margarita after?

• 8:35Fearne Cotton?

  I learned that the hard way when I bumped into my therapist in Sainsbury's. And I went in for a hug. And it, that, you can't do that and I didn't know. I didn't know.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 8:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Did you carry on seeing them?

• 8:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, she's changed my life. She's like the best person ever, but I realised, oh, there's like an etiquette. I'm not very like etiquette person.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  No, I didn't know that.

• 8:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you don't, you don't say hi or whatever. And I was like, yay, hug. And I realised.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  So if you see your therapist out in the wild, you're not supposed to say hi?

• 9:05Fearne Cotton?

  I think you can just be like, hey, like it's just like a little nod, but you're not meant to have interaction.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Do you think that's quite weird though? Cause it's like, then they are like, what? They only exist in the, in the room. And then they're basically like NPCs, like they're not real people. But, cause sometimes I think I've made therapists up in my head. Like when I've had so many different types. My friend Holly, Holly the other day was like, I've done every different type of therapy, which is obviously a privilege to say, but like I have tried absolutely everything to cure my silly little brain. And one of my therapists actually the other day came up on my TikTok algorithm, like she had a podcast. And I was like, nope.

• 9:41Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  No, that is not right, don't you think?

• 9:44Fearne Cotton?

  I would prefer not to see a therapist that's got a big online community.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think it is just, it's a very compartmentalised thing here that really works in that form only.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:57Fearne Cotton?

  And I like that.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I like them to be like, a bit like contradicting myself. They exist in this one place for me.

• 10:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  And they are my, they exist in, almost just in my reality. Like they don't, like, I even find it jarring when I see like another client waiting in the waiting room. I'm like, oh, you've got other clients.

• 10:14Fearne Cotton?

  You're cheating on me.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I'm not the only one.

• 10:17Fearne Cotton?

  I can't be that special.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  I thought you'd just sit in this room all the time, just waiting for me to sign up.

• 10:22Fearne Cotton?

  Just thinking about me.

• 10:25Fearne Cotton?

  Now you are about to go on tour Grace.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, going on, I'm doing Edinburgh Fringe for two weeks and I'm going on tour after that. Yeah.

• 10:31Fearne Cotton?

  I'm coming to see you on tour.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  You have to.

• 10:33Fearne Cotton?

  This is gonna be so good. The tour is called The Lady Is A Tramp.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:36Fearne Cotton?

  The themes are, well, some of it is themed around you needing male validation.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's actually interesting because the thing about stand up is you have to decide the title and the blurb before you've written the show. So, yeah, because you put it on sale. Like, I'm writing the show at the moment, so I'm figuring out what the show's about at the moment. But you sort of have to decide a title so you can make a poster so you can put it on sale. Um, which is such a strange concept, but weirdly, yes. The show, I think, I did a preview two nights ago, is about perception and like how much people's perceptions of me have impacted how I view myself and how I behave my whole life, right? And it's like, some parts are relatable to like being a woman, some parts are specifically relatable to being a woman online,

• 11:26Speaker 01

  and other parts are just relatable to me because my dad's Alastair Campbell. So there are parts of like my story of people's perceptions of me that only my brothers can relate to. Um, but then other parts are like, you know, the way, the things that people say about me on the internet and the sort of very contradicting things that people say about you or I or whoever on the internet. And how, as much as you might try to have a boundary with it, it does seep into your psyche.

• 11:54Fearne Cotton?

  Uh, one hundred percent.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  And there's no way you can avoid that.

• 11:58Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  And so the show's kind of, I think that's what it's turning out to be. I did a preview on Monday or Tuesday. Um, and, and that was the part that I actually, as I was talking about it, found really interesting.

• 12:10Fearne Cotton?

  So this is a fascinating subject because, and first of all, your idea of what people's perceptions are could be entirely wrong.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  And often they are.

• 12:23Fearne Cotton?

  And often they are because we think, well, they're judging me because of this and they think this about me. I've had all of these thoughts over the years. They think I'm stupid or whatever. And actually, if you were to quiz those individuals or that group, they'd go, uh, I don't think that at all. I, I have, so we're kind of cherry picking little bits, usually to torture ourselves. And so we go, I'll take that bit because they've just called me a twat and they've just called me an idiot, so I'll take that bit. And they obviously think I'm this. And actually, there's a ton of people that are like, I just think Grace is really great.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  I think it's exactly that. I think it feeds into the narrative that you have of yourself in your head. So you're constantly looking for evidence for that narrative and then someone gives you that evidence. Like my best example of this is I've like always identified as crazy, right? Like in kind of like a fun way, but like my dad's got mental health issues. My uncle had paranoid schizophrenia. I grew up around a lot of like severe mental health issues. I don't have like, you know, schizophrenia or my dad, my dad's like a manic depressive. I think he maybe then got diagnosed as bipolar, but I can't speak on behalf of him. Um, have you had him on the podcast? No.

• 13:27Fearne Cotton?

  I would love to have your dad on.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Podcast, yeah.

• 13:29Fearne Cotton?

  I fucking love the rest is history. The rest is politics.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Keep that in, keep that in.

• 13:35Fearne Cotton?

  Both. I actually genuinely listen to both. I flip flop. I'm like, am I in a politic, don't I need Alistair and Rory? Or am I going Tudor over?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you don't want to be in the present. Sometimes you want to be in the past.

• 13:49Fearne Cotton?

  I want Elizabeth the first to some day. Some days I want Alistair, some days I want Elizabeth the first. And I flip flop, but I, I think your dad is fucking great and I would love him on the podcast.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  You should, well, he'll do it. Um, he absolutely, he's an attention whore.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  He loves it. I'll be like, we'll be like, absolutely.

• 14:06Fearne Cotton?

  I love that you're not.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  A gorgeous woman wants me on her podcast.

• 14:09Fearne Cotton?

  I love that you're like, I'm not going to speak on behalf of like a bipolar, but he's an attention whore, fact.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  I mean, we have, we, we, we love to take the piss out of each other a lot. But what I was saying is like, I, my whole life kind of identified as crazy. I was always kind of kooky, like I was always like a bit odd, but like very popular, not to brag. Like I was never bullied. I was always popular. I had, I've always had so many friends. But I was always the one who was like a little bit mad, who had like neuroses that kind of weren't normal. But my friends just were like, would take the piss out of it, but it was kind of seen as, you know, never seen as like an issue that maybe I had. But I've always called myself crazy. I guess it's like a defense mechanism. So that like when I'm dating men, for example, I'm like, I'm a bit mad. So that like then when I like get really anxious and freak out.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Like, I've, I've already told you that I'm a bit mad. Anyway, I, one of my best friends, James Blake, I'm just gonna say that, that's who he is.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  But not, not to like name drop, I wanna give him the credit for what he said to me in this conversation.

• 15:11Fearne Cotton?

  I just like that the surname was just like a beat after.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I like, shall I say, no, but it's like, I want him to get credit for this, because it was, it was a conversation that really did change my life.

• 15:20Fearne Cotton?

  And he's genius.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  And he's a total genius, and he's one of, if not the most amazing man that's ever existed in my life. I love him so much. But we were talking like one day, and I was talking about myself, and I was talking about myself in the context of like relationships with men, and I was like, you know, because the thing is like, I'm crazy. And he just really like calmly but did snap. He was like, I'm so sick of hearing how many times you refer to yourself as crazy, like, you've, you're telling yourself this story that you're crazy, and then it means all these other people that treat you badly, get away with it because you blame yourself, because you're always like, I'm crazy, I'm the one that's like, made them behave this way. And he was like, you need to stop doing that, because it's like, it really matters what, how you refer to yourself, and like,

• 16:04Speaker 01

  hearing you talk about yourself as crazy so much, when like, everybody else sees you as this like, really interesting person that they're drawn to and like wanna be around and wanna hang out with. And I was like, fuck.

• 16:16Fearne Cotton?

  It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 16:19Fearne Cotton?

  I have lived it. I get it. I used to, when I went through a period of, I got sacked from a few TV shows back in the day, and I started to get a bit paranoid, and then I started to say, yeah, well, I'm, I'm just like a bit weird, and I just, you know, I'm, I'm not right for anything, and I'm just like, not as good as all the other presenters. And I started to say it so regularly, but then, I, the phone didn't ring. No more TV shows. Cause you, you speak it into life. There is something so magical about what you're saying, how often you say it, and there being an end result to that.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I know, and the thing is, is that I think when you have, like, I've, you know, recently been diagnosed with ADHD, but I've always had really bad anxiety and OCD, and when you have a brain that like focuses on something. Something and then goes in, you know, like the way that that my brain, like a lot of people works is like, I'll have a thought. And it's a horrible thought. And then instead of saying that's a horrible irrational thought, I will spend two weeks going down loopholes. Yeah. With that thought while I'm having conversations, while I'm on stage, while I'm like walking the dog, we're like constantly having these like really negative conversations about myself in my head. And that is getting better, but I think the problem is, is that like, I've spent my heart so now, and actually weirdly, the book I bought when I was picking up the dog shit.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Really, really changed like how I saw this. It was this book by a Japanese monk or something. And it was all about like, obviously this is so basic to say, but like, when you have these thoughts, how to like snap back into reality. Bring yourself back into your body, be in the actual moment with what's happening.

• 17:58Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  My problem is I'm time travelling all the time in my head. And I'm like, you know, worrying about things that are gonna happen when I should just be enjoying something amazing that's happening right then. And I think, yeah, I think the the crazy thing is is the best example of like what the show is kind of like trying to speak to. Like you said, I don't think many people actually think I'm crazy. Maybe like one of my ex-boyfriends.

• 18:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  But that's it.

• 18:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  And I was, we were both a bit crazy in that relationship. But how long I've spent convincing myself I'm crazy is something that like should really be recognised.

• 18:35Fearne Cotton?

  Definitely. Do you know what? I I learned this thing in therapy where you can actually do like a practical exercise where say you get a big sheet of paper and you write down. All the things that people in passing have said about you, or maybe if you're in the public eye, it's been on a screen, but it could, you know, it could just be like. Your auntie, a teacher at school, one of your mates. So you're bossy, you're a big mouth, whatever it is, you write them all down, cut them out. You quite literally physically stick them or like post it to your body. And you stand there and you look at them all like, okay, this person called me a dickhead, this person said I was thick. And then quite ceremoniously, you take them off, like something about the action of like, I'm taking the, they're not mine, they're not mine. I don't.

• 19:15Fearne Cotton?

  That's someone else's projection of whatever's going on with them. I am taking them off because like you say, not only do we, we're wearing these labels. We're then repeating it and repeating it. There's something really interesting. There's um. I found out recently the true meaning of the word abracadabra. This sounds fucking random what I'm about to say.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  I'm so in.

• 19:36Fearne Cotton?

  It's an Aramaic phrase. I'm gonna have to actually Google the exact translation because this is exactly what we're talking about. So the word.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Abracadabra has a meaning.

• 19:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. True meaning of abracadabra, it's a long word. The Aramaic meaning is I create as I speak. So you go abracadabra, there's the rabbit out of the hat. Same thing, I'm crazy.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:03Fearne Cotton?

  You create as you speak and learning that was so game changing for me, like. Oh my God, I'm literally like magicking my worst nightmares into reality by repeating that one thing again and again. And it is that simple that if we can get into the habit of going, I'm great, I'm good, I'm a kind person. Whatever it is that you need to say, replace it with that and you feel lighter, you feel better.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  I know, and that's the thing, that's where I'm at right now. I'm in a phase right now where I'm really working on that. And, and I guess that's why I love writing stand up because I do it as I go. Like I'm figuring this out as I'm writing a show, like working on like a, a stand up comedy show is like, you're on stage and then I'll stop and I'll be like, fuck, this is what the show is about. Cause as I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, this is what I wanna say.

• 20:53Fearne Cotton?

  And also you're getting feedback directly.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Totally, but it's like, it's not even that like, you know, it's not like, oh, this is the show that everybody's gonna love. It's like, this is the show I wanna create, this is what I want to be saying over and over again. Cause my last tour was, it was, the show was about an abortion and it was, I don't regret it. It was like an amazing show and I know it helped a lot of people, but it was really bad for my mental health. Performing a show, I did it maybe like 50 times. Every, every time I was reliving this thing that had created a lot of trauma for me, it was so bad for my health. And so now to just do a show that's like really fun.

• 21:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  And it's, but it's about perception, it's interesting, but it's like really fun. And I'm there thinking, I'm in a place now where like, I don't have something really painful that I need to exercise. Through my stand up, I just have these like things that, you know, I'm going through that are very human. So I'm really excited, basically, like I'm excited about doing a show that doesn't make me cry after every day, every time.

• 21:50Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's such a matter of trial and error with this stuff, knowing that with the work that you're doing, the platform you've got, similar to what I'm trying to do, you know that if you talk honestly about things, you can really help people feel not alone in whatever they're going through. But it is a fine line between it then being completely detrimental to you. And I've certainly learned that the hard way by, you know, saying something and I thought, oh, God, I, you know, usually when it's more off the cuff rather than in a book where you've got a bit more time to think, do I want this in print forever and it just to be sat there. But when you are just, you know, in this setting or you're doing a talk, you do have to quite literally trial and error, like, does this feel okay to say this? And sometimes it's not worth it. Like, do you

• 22:34Fearne Cotton?

  have your own set of rules as to like, that cannot go anywhere near my stand up show. This is for me to figure out.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  I do now, but I didn't then. I think like the thing that I now know with hindsight, which is why I'm glad I did it, that that was way too soon. It was way too soon. Like, I had literally, like, basically had like, one period. I didn't have a period for six months after my abortion. Like, there were loads of complications and lots of stuff happened. And then I was just mentally very unwell. And I'd had like two periods and then I started writing the show. It was just way too soon. Like, I was so in it, but I did it because I, at that time, was like, the only way I can get through this is if I know it's happened for a purpose. And if I know that I'm

• 23:23Speaker 01

  gonna get something out of it, otherwise I can't rationalize what I'm going through. So I had to do it. And I'm thrilled. It was an amazing success. And, you know, it was, it really did help so many people, like how, you know, what the stuff that you do does. But I think sometimes there needs to be more time.

• 23:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  You need, you need, and I, and I now know that, you know?

• 23:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you don't want to be, you know, coming off stage and then having to reprocess everything, you know, that's something to be doing away from the public domain so you can work it out.

• 24:00Speaker 02

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• 24:29Speaker 05

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel.

• 24:30Speaker 06

  And Maisie Adam.

• 24:31Speaker 05

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 24:34Speaker 06

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 06

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too.

• 24:48Speaker 06

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 24:51Speaker 05

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, you just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 24:56Speaker 06

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 25:02Fearne Cotton?

  I found your book not only incredibly entertaining, but massively helpful because...

• 25:08Speaker 01

  I actually forget I wrote that.

• 25:09Fearne Cotton?

  That book is so great.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  You know I wrote that when I was like 24.

• 25:12Fearne Cotton?

  It's so brilliant.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  And COVID, six weeks.

• 25:14Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what I think is so commendable is that you were willing to say certain things that were going to instantly diminish shame for other people. I mean, shame's on the front cover, so you know what you're getting straight away. And I find that subject endlessly fascinating, and it's a feeling that I drowned in for years. And obviously, as we all know, shame breeds in secret. You keep it in the shadows and it gets bigger and bigger, to the point where you just feel like you're suffocating. And for you to simply say certain things, whether it's past experiences you've been through, it just fucking blows out the water. Other people can go, oh, I don't need to feel ashamed about this.

• 25:55Fearne Cotton?

  Or like, you know, whether it is looking for mal-validation or things that have happened to you that you regret, it's just so refreshing to have that out in the open because so much for people... Suffering, lives in secret and it just becomes this huge monster and it doesn't need to be, doesn't need to be.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I think like, it's so, it's so interesting because, I mean, that book is so funny to me because I actually really forget I wrote a book. Because I was quite young, it was during Covid, I wrote it really quickly and it all happened quite fast. I think if I'd have had a bit more time, and I actually think maybe I should have had more life experience before I wrote it. So sometimes I'm like, I feel it gives me the ick a bit that I wrote it.

• 26:37Fearne Cotton?

  Oh god, I mean, I haven't read any of my books, but I think the first book I wrote, I don't wanna read that back.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  It's just because I'm like, oh, I know so much more now and I, I'd love to like, and I will write another book one day and like, stop offering me book deals, please. Because I haven't got time, because I get offered. I get offered book deals all the time.

• 26:54Fearne Cotton?

  Said no one ever, I love it.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I know, that sounds really ungrateful, but it's like, I can't, I can't do it right now.

• 27:01Fearne Cotton?

  No, good for you.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  But one day I'm gonna write a, you know, a book, another book that will be an extension of that, which is like. I have always, and this is something that I think my parents would attest to, have always lived my life in a very honest way. And, and that was different, not like, I'm not shaming my family, but my family like, can be quite avoidant. With things and I've always been very like, I just say how I feel, if I don't, I feel unwell. Like I feel actually ill, which is sometimes difficult to be around. Because it's like, it builds in me and then I'm like, oh my god, like I'm actually gonna throw up if I don't say how I feel.

• 27:43Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not very good at like, understanding, why are we not just saying what's going on here? I, I can't bear those situations, like, why is everyone not saying the thing?

• 27:53Speaker 01

  I know, I know. But what is that about us, do you think? Because I feel like with that, like, we are, that is quite different, especially in like, English culture. Like, in England, like, English people are quite like, you know, can be, like, not repressed, I hate that stereotype, but definitely like. You have to broach subjects really sensitively, whereas I can be quite abrupt. And people say this to me quite a lot, like, and sometimes it can be quite, it can feel like I'm being quite harsh. Cause I'll just like say something, but I just, I'm like curious about how that happened.

• 28:27Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know. I just feel very tense when I know that there's bullshit around or like we're not talking about something. Or I think even with my mental health to a degree, there are certain things that are an absolute no go. Where I'm like, I'm not ready to tell anyone about this stuff, apart from my therapist. And that's where it should live until I feel like, okay, this is all digestible and I can talk about it. But some of the other stuff, I just think I would rather go, yeah, like I've had a shit time or I'm struggling at the moment or whatever. Rather than pretending everything's rosy and perfect, which I don't actually think benefits anyone. Cause it's a lie. Everyone's got shit going on.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  But this is why I find the internet so difficult.

• 29:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yes.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Because I think that we've lost, like, we have really lost the capacity to understand that, like, so many truths can exist at the same time. And so now, and we all do it. It's like, we'll look at someone online and see them in a very two dimensional way. And then assume so many things about their lives and that their lives are not perfect. No one's lives are functional and perfect. I don't know anyone who has a perfect functional life.

• 29:35Fearne Cotton?

  Nor do I.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  And so, but, but this is why I find, again, coming back to that thing of like what we're talking about, like, I don't like being fake in any situation, which again is, is definitely annoyed people in my life. Because say if there's someone I don't like or like, I sort of say like, I get allergic to people, like they bring me out in like a rash. Like if I'm around certain people, I'm like, I need an antihistamine, otherwise I have to leave.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  I won't say who while we're recording, but there are certain people that just like bring me out in hives. And I find it really hard to be fake. And I find it really hard to be like, hi, how are you? Like, and then, and then I get told off and I'm like, but I don't wanna not be completely transparent, but then sometimes that can be rude. Do you know what I mean?

• 30:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I get it. I get it. It's hard, but I think. Certainly with your book, your stand up, how you go about your business on social media. That level of truth is helpful.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:32Fearne Cotton?

  It's helpful. It's like busting myths and talking about shit. One of the big things for me with the work you do is the discussions when it comes to female sex, female pleasure.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 30:44Fearne Cotton?

  Busting, like, there is still so much stigma, so much shame disproportionately on women when talking about those subjects. And you're like, let's chat about it.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And do you know what's so, I mean, I can't tell you how much it bothers me, how many times I meet women who like do not prioritise like their own pleasure sexually. And I only get into these conversations because women talk to me about it. Because obviously I've spoken about it for a long time now. But it really makes me sad because I'm like, life's really short. Like, you should be having orgasms. Like, that's the best thing in the world. Like, we should be having great sex and we should be enjoying every part of it. And I just, yeah, I, it makes me sad. Like, I wish I could just buy everybody a vibrator.

• 31:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, do you know what? But it's this big cultural weird issue that's been there forever. You know, when I grew up, you've obviously got boys sort of giggling about wanking. And if a girl was to mention masturbation, it was like, ah, gross. And it's like, oh my god, we actually had Florence Bark on here maybe four, five years ago. We did a whole episode on female pleasure and masturbation. And it was so liberating to go, let's just chat about all of it right now, get it out there. And the amount of women that then contacted us, like, thank god you're talking about this. Because it's still that, even for women of my age, there's still this like weird myth around it, that women, women's pleasure is so far down the list.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Well, it's almost like growth. It's almost like seen as like a, like something that like women shouldn't do.

• 32:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Because one of my favourite facts, I don't know if you already know this, but I'll tell you it because I love thinking about this. But back in the day, like, I think it was like the 1800s, it was like pre-Freud, because Freud is the one who came along and busted this myth. Back in the day, it was believed that for a woman to get pregnant, she had to come. So the female orgasm was prioritised because it was thought that to get pregnant, she had to have an orgasm.

• 32:47Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Then it got discovered that that wasn't true, right? And it was Freud that like came along and then said some-

• 32:55Fearne Cotton?

  You can have a baby with bad sex.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But like, how sad is that? Because I think that's, that sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just tell men that that was true because-

• 33:07Fearne Cotton?

  Or maybe not actually, because they don't want to get me pregnant.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Who wants to get me pregnant? I'll write a show about it.

• 33:19Fearne Cotton?

  It is mad.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  But how mad is that? Isn't that mad? Like, there was so much, there was so little known about the clit, like, back in the day. And it was thought that that was needed in order to procreate. And so, you know, women must have had more orgasms or less orgasms when, you know, they were trying not-

• 33:37Fearne Cotton?

  There's also a weird thing when looking at like women getting older, you know, Madonna constantly shamed for trying to be sexy. It's like, if she feels sexy, she's sexy. Why is that a problem to anyone? If she wants to lie on a bed, gyrating with tights on at 60, good honour.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 33:56Fearne Cotton?

  Why is that a problem for people? Like, when we get to a certain age, we must wear a smock and start making sourdough bread? Like, let women be sexy if they want to be sexy and feel it.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  People don't know what they want from women. So it's like, people say like, be who, you know, like, I love seeing women like age in this way and not giving a fuck. And then they do it and they're like, fuck you. And that's women, by the way, like, women will be shaming Madonna.

• 34:17Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Something I love is what Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin have done in Grace and Frankie. I don't know if you watch Grace and Frankie.

• 34:23Fearne Cotton?

  No, I know of it, I know of it.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  It's, I mean, it's just like a very cosy show that I watch whenever I'm sad. But it's about these two older women, much older, you know, they're in their like late 70s, 80s in the show. And so much of it is about orgasms and their sex lives. And actually, their characters create a vibrator brand for older women who have arthritis. And that's what their characters do on the show. They make- You have got to watch Grace and Frankie. Like, I worship that show because I think that it makes me really look forward to getting older. Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, and then in real life, they have such a cool relationship. But like, and actually, one of the things that my show is about is something that I admire in like much older women. Like, you know, women who- When women get to that age, like Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin's age,

• 35:08Speaker 01

  historically, they they are deemed as invisible, like they're not, they're invisible to the media, like, we don't wanna see them anymore, we don't wanna hear from them anymore. And then you have these unbelievable women who just like, don't give a fuck anymore because they're not appeasing to the male gaze. They're not appeasing to like, gatekeepers anymore. They don't have to because they've like, they've passed that. One of the things I talk about in my show is, I wanna be that now.

• 35:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Like, I want to be that, I want more women to be that way when they're younger.

• 35:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Why are we doing that? Why are we caring so much about like, what people online say about us, or like, what men think about us, or whether or not we're being like, too much, or too anxious, or too emotional? We're wasting so much time. We'll get to that age and think, fuck, it's so liberating not to give a fuck.

• 35:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  And I really want to be that now.

• 35:58Fearne Cotton?

  Me too. I mean, I think about this constantly because I went beyond people pleasing back in the day and it was just all about either me ensuring that nobody around me was in discomfort because I couldn't bear it, slash, my, uh, projection and image needs to remain perfect at all times because that's just the nature of the job I'm in and it must remain that way.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  And you don't want anyone to think you're difficult.

• 36:28Fearne Cotton?

  No, you just must be pleasing in all areas and I, I, luckily I've got some really brilliant intergenerational friendships of women in their sixties, their seventies, and they say exactly what you've just said, like, you just do not care, you get to a point where you're just like, whatever, and you know, the fucks get less. But why we're not doing that now is the big question, I think, for so many women listening to this. There'll be a fair few men, I'm sure too, but we have a lot of women listening to this who are my age, your age, who'll be thinking, that's what I want. I want to just totally be myself in any situation and live my life happily now, not wait till I'm eighty. Where the hell do we start?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Well, this is what I'm trying to work out at the moment. I really am trying to figure this out because, you know, I I I'm having, uh, I'm I'm thinking at the moment about like, I apologize a lot for like being anxious. Right? So like, whether it's like someone I'm dating or like in a work environment or whatever, like, if I'm having a bit of a sort of like moment where I'm overthinking something, I'm like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And I'm trying to stop doing that because like, I'm I shouldn't be sorry. Like, I'm allowed to have feelings about situations that I'm in without having to constantly feel bad and feel like ashamed of them. And I think that we, I think the problem is, is that

• 37:49Speaker 01

  we don't have enough examples. There are some incredible examples of women who are like mine and your generation, like right now, who like don't give a fuck, right? Like Cardi B, I'm obsessed with, like, I feel Cardi B is just so herself. She's so unbelievably herself. I mean, like, maybe, you know, she's not, but like, to me, she just seems truly like, really like at one with herself. When I watch her and I'm like, oh my god, like, she's incredible. But I think how do we get there? It is something I'm really trying to unlock at the moment because I don't want to waste more time, like, caring what men, ca- not, obviously I care, I should care what men I'm in relationships with think about me, but

• 38:28Speaker 01

  really caring about like male validation and like not wanting to be kind of like a really loud, opinionated girl. Because my whole life, men have found me super annoying.

• 38:38Fearne Cotton?

  We need more loud, opinionated women. We just do. I wonder if it's less about not caring and more about, you can still care, but you can deal with the discomfort of someone going, I don't like that you're really loud. And you're like, god, that feels awful, but I'm gonna be alright.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  That's a very good way of thinking about it.

• 38:58Fearne Cotton?

  Because I don't think it's necessarily sustainable for us to go, I'm just not gonna care forever until I die.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  We should obviously care.

• 39:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and we just do.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I think you're right. I think it's about saying, okay, like, that person finds me annoying. Like, I, uh, I once, like, was in a sauna and, um, like, basically, I talk quite loudly and I was telling a story in the sauna to like everyone in the sauna. Who I'd just met, like literally I've just met all these people in the sauna. And then this man in the sauna like snapped and was like, your voice is so irritating. It's actually sending me into a psychosis. And I was like.

• 39:31Fearne Cotton?

  Who says that?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  A man, like a man.

• 39:33Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  A man who finds, a man, men, certain men, I'm not joking, Fern, find my voice really jarring. Cause it's loud and I also sound very self-assured when I speak. Like I sound a bit like my dad, like me and my dad have quite.

• 39:48Fearne Cotton?

  But again, that's what we need.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  I know, but some men, definitely not all of them are like, whoa. And it's like, there's a man over there speaking.

• 39:58Fearne Cotton?

  In exactly the same way.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Exactly the same way. You're not going like, whoa. It's like, there's something about it that like rattles them. And, and I, and I'm never changing it.

• 40:07Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I'm never gonna change it.

• 40:08Fearne Cotton?

  You must not.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be in saunas, sending men.

• 40:11Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Into the psychosis.

• 40:14Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Like there should be like, you know, a, a mental health team outside the saunas that I go into.

• 40:19Fearne Cotton?

  I think there's maybe that man, he's, there's a, there's like a mum issue going on.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Definitely was something underlying going on and I'm, I'm sorry to that man that like I upset him.

• 40:29Fearne Cotton?

  You shouldn't be.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  But it is in, I find it super interesting, the voice thing. I do because I feel like that has been a recurring theme in my life is men telling me to stop speaking so loudly.

• 40:40Fearne Cotton?

  That to me is absolutely bonkers.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Hmm. And none of my female friends care.

• 40:46Fearne Cotton?

  No, of course I don't. There's some weird correlation to what I'm about to say, but we know from looking at data from podcasting, that a female podcast host, and I'm not just talking about myself in this sort of like narcissistic way here, but like me or Elizabeth Day or any other brilliant, you know, female voice out, I'm not calling myself brilliant, but like Elizabeth.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  You are brilliant.

• 41:06Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking love.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:07Fearne Cotton?

  But any other women who are doing their thing online in podcast form will mainly attract a female audience. It will be disproportionately female, like 90% I'm talking. And then they get a few like straggler men who are listening. If you look at a male-led podcast, which there are many who we love. They will somehow, yeah, gather a very mixed bag of men and women who are happy to listen to them. And when you quiz, you know, I sort of put an Instagram post out about this about a year ago or something, whenever it was, and a few men came back saying, yeah, it's like the subject matters that you're talking about. And I was like, I've had, I've

• 41:48Fearne Cotton?

  had Gareth Southgate on, David Harewood, Ian Wright, like, you know, men talking about all manner of subjects, and some very male skewed, like football.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:59Fearne Cotton?

  Literally, quite literally, talking about the psychology of football, but I'm told it's the subjects that I'm talking about. So it's, there is something very interesting about, I think, an assertive female voice that some men do not like. Or it's just like, we can't, or it's like the wellness thing, like, men think that's not for me, because there's a lot of females out there talking about it.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  I think it's because, because I see this in stand-up as well, it's like.

• 42:24Fearne Cotton?

  I bet you do.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  If you went to see a Ricky Gervais show, it would be a mixed audience, right? When I'm gonna go see Nikki Glaser, it will be all women, right? And Nikki Glaser, both absolutely brilliant stand-ups, but Nikki Glaser is an unbelievable stand-up. Men should be appreciating her, her work. Like, she's, she's an incredible comedian. I think it's that they don't like, not all of them, but the ones who don't consume this, don't like a woman being on a stage, having a microphone.

• 42:54Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  And they don't want to give their money to go and sit and listen to a woman talk, sometimes about men as well.

• 43:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  On a stage. And whereas a woman will happily go and watch a man.

• 43:07Fearne Cotton?

  Well, we're used to it.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  It, it's our whole existence, right?

• 43:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  But even if there's, you know, talking shit about us, we're able to be like, that's funny, that's a funny joke. If it's like a good observa, if it's an astute observation about women, I'll appreciate the joke. But I, I, I think it's that.

• 43:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think you probably got more of an acute understanding of this than the most people, having grown up in the world that you did, which is the world of politics, where predominantly we see men in power telling us how shit's gonna happen and what's gonna go down. How has that informed how you see the world?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot, and I think one of the reasons why I have this, the way that I am, is because I emulated my dad, like, you know, in some ways. Now, in my older age, I'm really trying to emulate my mum, because my mum's like incredible and is very like emotionally intelligent and, you know, like, I could talk about her for hours, but growing up, I just remember thinking, oh, there are all these men, and they're having all these serious conversations, and people are listening to them. How do I be like one of those people? Okay, I have to talk loudly, I have to sound really confident, I have to take up space in every like room that I go in. And I became that, like, I really did, and that's why I'm a complete dichotomy. Is it dichotomy?

• 44:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Because inside, I'm not like that. Inside, I'm incredibly anxious and very insecure, and have so many issues, which, you know, is obvious like through this conversation. But from a really young age, I learnt to mask as this sort of like version of myself, who was like, yeah, am what? And like, was always like that, like, was always like that. Like, as a kid, I remember like in primary school, someone told me that a boy had called me fat in the playground, and I was like in year one or year two, and I went up to him and I punched him. Because I was like, you don't call me fat. And then I got, obviously got in so much trouble. But I remember thinking, don't let people, you know, don't let people be mean to you. Like, you have to be like, like, kind of like a man. But I think that actually affected me,

• 45:06Speaker 01

  because I think it meant that I never really expressed how I felt a lot. I was always felt I had to be this kind of like, slightly not intimidating, but like, I couldn't be that like, uh, the way that I am now, which is like so multifaceted. And now, you know, I think it's meant that I'm a bit of a confusing person to get to know. Like, one minute I am quite like abrupt and sort of say what I think, then the next minute, I'm feeling super anxious and I'm like, do you even like me?

• 45:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  And it's confusing.

• 45:37Fearne Cotton?

  Mm, I'm like that.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:39Fearne Cotton?

  In parts of my life, I'm so confident and I know exactly who I am, and at other times, I'm like, oh my god, everyone hates me and I hate myself, and what do I do? And I think, we're just, we're like this.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Help, I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners

• 45:57Speaker 04

  meets mayhem.

• 45:58Speaker 03

  I'm William Hanson.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  I'm Jordan North.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 46:03Speaker 04

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help, I Sexted My Boss.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Just search Sexted.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 46:27Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so fascinated with, you know, because reading your book, you, you, you hear about these moments where you're at number 10 Downing Street. Putin's turned up and you're not allowed in the room and you're like, wait a minute, normally I can sit with Tony Blair. Why am I not allowed in that room there? But to see that and witness it, but to kind of understand the rules of power and you're not being taught that, you're observing it, you're imbibing it just from being in that environment. I think we can all pick up tips and tricks, whether they're for the good or, or not, to walk into a room, like you say, and take up space and be heard and be a voice because you saw it and you could therefore mimic it. It doesn't mean you always felt it, but you could at least use it.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  You can mimic it.

• 47:09Fearne Cotton?

  You can.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  You can take it and, and I think that my dad is, he's less so now, he's definitely softened in his older age, but back then he was an intimidating person.

• 47:23Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you had to be, surely.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And that's why he got the like, you know, sort of characterisations that he did and like Malcolm Tucker and that sort of like idea that he was this like controlling and kind of aggressive, like spin doctor type. But he definitely was an intimidating person and I do remember as a kid thinking, I want to walk into a room and people to be like, oh, like that, which I don't now because I don't want to be that way. I want to be kind of like chilling in the corner gossiping, like I don't want to be that way. But I remember as a kid thinking, that's how you survive in this world, like that's how you have to be. And, and so I think in that sense, that's how it influenced me. And then I think just being around it

• 48:06Speaker 01

  kind of made me hate politics. Like I'm very political now, but I definitely feel.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  I don't know, I just feel like it's so male dominated and like there are so many women who do like Tessa Jau, who was like my godmother, basically, we're like not religious, but she was sort of that fairy godmother in my life. And she was an incredible politician and she did so many incredible things and like she was amazing and such an amazing woman to grow up around, to see how a woman can deal with those men and deal with those spaces. But still be a woman and still be like really in touch with her like emotional side. And so empathetic and Tessa was like the first person, like when my mum's dad died, like Tessa was the first person that came around, because my mum's dad died when I was like three weeks old.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  And my dad had just started working for Tony Blair, it was like a really, really crazy. I came into the world at a very crazy period of my family's life and Tessa was just, so you can be both.

• 49:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  And, and knowing that you can be both now and knowing that you, you can be hard and you can be in rooms. And, and not be difficult, but say what you want and advocate for yourself. You also can be very soft and check in on people and be open about how you're actually feeling and those two things can exist at the same time.

• 49:26Fearne Cotton?

  They, they can, but I'm sure that's not what you were necessarily seeing in that sort of nineties.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:32Fearne Cotton?

  Male dominated political environment. And then of course, when your dad left the Labour Party, he left Downing Street. He comes back home and he falls into a big period of depression and you're what, nine at this point?

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was nine, yeah.

• 49:45Fearne Cotton?

  And so how, you know, you've gone from seeing your dad walk into rooms with Tony Blair and everyone's kind of stands back and stands up and there's level of respect, there's instant power to someone who's kind of diminished, to someone who's in bed or on the sofa all day. How, how did you compute that as a kid?

• 50:01Speaker 01

  I found it really confusing and I think, I, I, I think it's definitely, it definitely impacted sort of how I relate to other people in some ways because I think I found it really hard as a child to understand that someone could be on the TV and, and look one way and be together and like on. And then at home not be able to speak or get up or speak to me. And I used to do, I used to try like everything I could when he was really depressed to like, you know, we like loved the film Made in Manhattan, like me and my dad would go and watch. He obviously just fancied J Lo, but like. Ah.

• 50:45Fearne Cotton?

  So good.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  But we would go and like, I'd like drag him out of the bed. We'd go to the O2 Centre on Finchley Road and we'd go and watch like Made in Manhattan, Cheaper by the Dozen. I remember watching Cheaper by the Dozen with him and he was coming out of a really bad spell of his depression. And at the end of Cheaper by the Dozen, it actually makes me cry. I'm gonna try not to cry, but at the end of Cheaper by the Dozen, there's this scene where like all of the kids like run towards Steve Martin on the pitch and they're like coming back to him. And I turned to my dad and he was crying and that was like a good sign because he was like feeling something. And I remember thinking, oh, he's like coming out of it. So I think like I am because of that. I'm, I'm very emotionally intelligent and I, I, I can always tell when someone's not okay.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  I can pick up on it because I was doing that when I was really young. And actually, I was so young that I was so naive as well. So I got to try and help him in a, in a way that was very innocent. But I did also take it personally because you're a child.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  You're a kid. You're a kid. I mean, at what point or has he ever gone, hey, this is a problem that I've got? And this is, or were you kind of in the dark?

• 51:57Speaker 01

  And no, no, we weren't in the dark. They like, they were really honest with us and he would be really honest. He would say, and he still does now. Like my dad gets into, but like, you know, he gets depressed now and, and he'll say like, I'm not, I'm not in a good way. And to be honest, this is maybe like too honest of me to say, but it's kind of why I don't listen to his podcast. Like there are other reasons that I don't listen to his podcast because, you know, I have this joke in my show, but I'll say it now, which is like, if I wanted to listen to my dad argue with a posh, entitled nepo baby cunt, I would just start an argument with him.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  But it's also because like sometimes I'll hear his voice and I can hear he's depressed and no one else can hear he's depressed. But I can hear he's depressed and I can't handle it because I feel too sad. I feel like he's like, he's this like old man, sorry dad. But he's also like a baby in my, in my mind as well in some ways. And, and it's, it's so confusing. And I think as I'm now in my thirties, I'm really figuring out like kind of what. How do you deal with that? In any relationship, in like father, daughter, mother, child, friendship, romantic relationships? How are you supposed to deal with it? And when you do take it personally, which is totally normal,

• 53:19Speaker 01

  how do you deal with that without making that person feel more ashamed and more guilty? And it's fucking hard. It's really fucking hard.

• 53:27Fearne Cotton?

  It's really hard. I mean, I think, only from experience, probably from being on both sides of a dynamic like that. I think, yes, you do take it personally. And I guess the only thing you can do if you're the person, the receiving end of it, or you're in the orbit of that person going through a tough time, is to go, I can see your pain, like I see it, I get it. And that's often all that person needs, isn't it? Because I think our tendency is always to try and fix it, like what can I do? And you can't, you know, there's very often nothing you can do apart from be there and witness it and say that you're witnessing it. And it's, it can be torturous to do that. Hey, I'm not trying to therapise you in any way at all, but

• 54:13Fearne Cotton?

  do you think there's any connection between that, what you've just talked about, and taking it personally? And kind of wanting your dad to, maybe whether it's like you want him to see you or to go, oh, you're my little kid, let's go to the cinema. And having looked for male validation over the years.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And, um, you know, I, I've definitely, in parts of my romantic life, been very drawn to men who like, you never know if they're coming or going, kind of. Like in my twenties, that was a lot of the time, the relationships I kept finding myself in was like, they're there one minute and then they're gone. And I'm not saying that's what my dad did, but something I am familiar with is the feeling of like someone being present and then suddenly them like not being present, even though they're there. And that is a familiar feeling. I think having a parent with mental illness like that.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Makes you both incredibly empathetic and also very, very sensitive. And so I am very, very sensitive and I'm just a very sensitive person. And I'm now just saying that and not being ashamed of it. And just saying I am sensitive because life has made me that way, basically.

• 55:30Fearne Cotton?

  There's also something really brilliant about recognizing like patterns like that. Because all of us, every person falls into usually, unless you're particularly self-aware, the familiar. Whether it works for you or not, it could be the worst place for you to be at. But you're like, this feels familiar. There's a weird safety to the dysfunction of it. So going with a guy that you know is only going to be there half the time mentally or practically in the room with you is like, yeah, I get, I know this dance. I know it doesn't work, but I know it. And it's really hard to break that cycle.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  It is. And also we sometimes do it to try and resolve a story from our past. Like, we're doing it because we wanna prove that that actually can have a better ending. And I'm not talking about my dad here, because my relationship with my dad, like, we have a great relationship. And like, you know, he's a complicated person, I'm a complicated person. And like, when we've tried to work together, goodbye, never forever again. Like, we get asked to do stuff together.

• 56:28Fearne Cotton?

  Gogglebox, though, come on.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Gogglebox was a fucking nightmare.

• 56:32Fearne Cotton?

  But you were so great together.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Why? Because he was like, like, they'd be like, right, we're gonna watch this thing. I don't wanna watch it. I don't wanna say that. No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm not doing it. Are we done yet? Are we done yet? Are we, he hates faff, right? He'd love this. You come here, you walk in, you sit down. He hates TV stuff. It's actually one of the reasons why he can't, he's quite bad with TV because he hates the waiting around. And he's, he can be like, right, what's going on? I'm, I'm sick of this. And he'll just say that because he's a man. So he can get away with saying that and people are like, Alice Cooper, what character? Do you know what I mean? Whereas if I was there, like, right, guys, come on, I've got places to be. They're like, she's super annoying. Like, who does she think she is? Yeah.

• 57:15Fearne Cotton?

  So good.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  But so, but yes, I think like to go, to go back to that point, I think that like we all do that in our own ways to try and sort of resolve things from our past. And sometimes it is very helpful. I've had relationships with men that have really healed me and like they're not happening now, but they served a purpose in my life. They taught me a kind of like feeling of safety and stability that I then needed to know existed. And, and, and I'm really grateful to that. And I thank those, like, there's like one man in particular that really did heal a lot of my like past wounds. And so sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And that's like kind of what you go through. But yeah,

• 57:58Speaker 01

  I mean, a hundred percent like having a dad like him, and I've got loads of bits in my new show about this, but like, it's definitely impacted my relationships with men for sure.

• 58:08Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you go back to our childhoods and you can look, you just, even if they're not big traumas or whatever, there's patterns and it's really hard to break them, really hard to get out of the familiar.

• 58:21Fearne Cotton?

  Right, you're going everywhere from Brighton to Norwich, is that right? After Edinburgh? How do you feel about touring? Are you, you okay with that lifestyle?

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am. I'm a, I'm really excited about this song because I'm taking one of my best friends who's a comedian to open for me and I've never had a support act before.

• 58:38Fearne Cotton?

  So fun.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  So she's not only like, she's called Alice Bryan, she's not only an amazing comic, she's fantastic. She's also like one of my people, like we're so close and she like knows me really well. So I think she, that will be really fun. It'll basically feel like we're going on holiday and I'm gonna like, you know, we've got days off, I'm gonna like take her, like we're gonna do nice things. And like, I love touring in that sense because you go somewhere, like on my last tour, yeah, my whole family's Scottish and me and my best friend, Jack, who's also Scottish, we had a day off in Inverness. And I was like, this is so cool. Like I would have never had like two days in Inverness. Inverness is epic.

• 59:14Fearne Cotton?

  I've been once, I loved it.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  We were there for bonfire night. They take bonfire nights so seriously. We had the best dirty martini we've ever had in our lives. And that's really fun. It's really fun, like getting my friends to come. And like just doing nice things with them. I just love hanging out, Fern.

• 59:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so great. I, I can't wait. I'm coming.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're there. I'm gonna have a big party after the Palladium.

• 59:34Fearne Cotton?

  I'll go anywhere. Palladium, I'm there. Obvs. Okay, so to end, I'm gonna ask you two things. And the first one is, by the way, you've still got the bag on your lap.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Still got the bag.

• 59:44Fearne Cotton?

  That we've just done that whole chat with the bag on your lap. We are making a Happy Place playlist. What are you putting on it?

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 59:53Fearne Cotton?

  This is like the worst question ever, because what are you gonna choose?

• 59:56Speaker 01

  I have so many songs. I have to pick one?

• 59:59Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you could have two. We'll give you two.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck. Fuck, fuck, fuck. Happy, oh, this is so hard. This is really hard, Fern.

• 1:00:11Fearne Cotton?

  I know. It's the worst question every time.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  It's really hard.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Because I like think about my desert island discs all the time.

• 1:00:21Fearne Cotton?

  She's planning, guys.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 1:00:23Fearne Cotton?

  Just waiting for Lauren to pick up the phone.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  But they change all the time. My desert island disc changes all the time. And can I get my phone really quickly?

• 1:00:31Fearne Cotton?

  Get your phone. No, you need a deep dive. This is to be taken very seriously.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Oh my god, two doors. How tricky.

• 1:00:37Fearne Cotton?

  Two doors for that, for that, for that sound protection.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  The thing is, oh, I've got, Fern, I've actually got too many. I think I'm gonna have to have an Oasis song, if I'm honest.

• 1:00:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right, okay.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a big Oasis girl. I went to the tour so many times.

• 1:00:51Fearne Cotton?

  They were so great live.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  I actually can't even cope with her. I wish I could watch that every day of my whole life.

• 1:00:57Fearne Cotton?

  It was so brilliant.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Every day. Okay, can you just give me like, oh, this is the problem.

• 1:01:02Fearne Cotton?

  And now you've got to whittle down an Oasis song.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  No, I'm actually not gonna do Oasis. I've changed my mind.

• 1:01:06Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:01:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oasis was almost too obvious.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Too bay. I wanna be cool here. Like, I'm trying to be cool.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  I'm trying to be like a cool, mysterious girl.

• 1:01:18Fearne Cotton?

  I'm trying to think, we had Mary Berry last week.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Something.

• 1:01:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:01:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, left be on.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  How does she know that?

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm trying to think of like songs that make me really happy when I'm driving in my car.

• 1:01:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  With the girls, that's the thing, like me and the girls.

• 1:01:37Fearne Cotton?

  That's the vibe we're looking for.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Me and the girls in the car.

• 1:01:41Fearne Cotton?

  The windows are down.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  The windows are down.

• 1:01:43Fearne Cotton?

  It's boiling.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  I mean, okay, this is the playlist I was looking for, one second. Do you know what, like, maybe this is super bait, oh, this is bait, but I'm gonna say it. Sorry, I'm bringing all my North London, like, naughty slang out today.

• 1:02:00Fearne Cotton?

  Please do.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Super Trooper.

• 1:02:04Fearne Cotton?

  Super Trooper.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Is that already in the playlist?

• 1:02:06Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  So me and one of my best friends Tara, right, we once, it was Christmas Eve in North London, and every year we would go to this pub called The Boston in Toffin Park, every year.

• 1:02:17Fearne Cotton?

  Did you do this for karaoke?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't really do karaoke.

• 1:02:21Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Because I, I'm like, let them have their moment.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  I'm like, I get a mic all the time, let, let my civilian friends perform. So I just sit there and go, shit, wash it.

• 1:02:39Fearne Cotton?

  Flas pancake.

• 1:02:43Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, that's so good. Okay, so you're not doing Super Trooper karaoke?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Actually, I don't need to carry, anyway. So, Super Trooper, me and Tara, we got back from The Boston one night, and it was Christmas Eve, and like, it was like, I actually think it was like snowing this Christmas, it was like really magical. We'd walk back to my flat from The Boston, we're in my kitchen, it was just the two of us, and we were so fucking drunk, and it's Christmas Eve, like, four in the morning, we knew our mums were gonna be so angry at us, because we were gonna be so hungover. And we put Super Trooper on, and we like, it was one of the most euphoric moments with a friend that I've ever had. I actually could cry thinking about it. And then I took them all to the ABBA Voyage, and Super Trooper is not in the fucking setlist, I don't know if you know this.

• 1:03:24Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  They're adding it.

• 1:03:25Fearne Cotton?

  Why is it not?

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  They've added it since the last time I went. But I love ABBA.

• 1:03:28Fearne Cotton?

  I love ABBA.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Obviously, it's such a bait thing to say, but I love ABBA, and Super Trooper is like, if I wanna pull myself out of a sad moment, I listen to that song and I think about me and Tara dancing in my kitchen.

• 1:03:38Fearne Cotton?

  Hey, I'm not looking here for like, let's get the weirdest track ever. When you go to a wedding, you wanna hear songs you know. It's that simple to me. I want Britney Spears' Slave, I want ABBA.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  It's just so funny, because I was like, going through. I was gonna do like a really sort of like... I was gonna do like a sort of like 90s dub song.

• 1:04:00Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  And then I was like, no, I'm gonna do Super Trooper because that song and ABBA in general just make me so happy.

• 1:04:07Fearne Cotton?

  That's what we're looking for. It's just, that's what music does. It's the best.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, so where is your happy place? That's the next thing. It's like, is it a place? Is it a person? Is it a metaphorical thing?

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Can I, can I, can I give you a happy scenario, my happy place scenario? Okay, so my happy place, honestly, is in my flat. I've just moved, bought a flat and I'm not gonna say where I live because I have stalkers, but I was about to say where I live. And it's got this balcony and like, obviously this is my first summer in the flat. And I've like had plants planted. I'm not even gonna say that I planted the plants because I had a gardener come.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  I'm putting an irrigation system, so I don't have to do anything to them.

• 1:04:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  But the view from my balcony is just trees, right? So it's just trees and it's magical. I'm the only house that has the balcony because the old people, the only people who have got the planning permission. And me and the girls, this is my dream scenario. And we're, by the way, we're about to have a heatwave, but this is what I'll be doing for the foreseeable future. Me, the girls, my dog Eddie.

• 1:05:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  With a bowl of water next to her so she doesn't get dehydrated. We're there, we're drinking orange wine.

• 1:05:20Fearne Cotton?

  Love.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  We're eating sushi.

• 1:05:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  And we just chat so much shit.

• 1:05:26Fearne Cotton?

  My favourite thing ever.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Same.

• 1:05:28Fearne Cotton?

  Chatting utter shit for hours.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  With my girls and gays.

• 1:05:33Fearne Cotton?

  Heaven. I want the rest of my life to just be that.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. I wanna, I wanna facilitate my life to be, I get to a point where I just have the house that everybody comes to.

• 1:05:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  To just chat shit.

• 1:05:47Fearne Cotton?

  There's an alchemy in that.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  It's unreal.

• 1:05:50Fearne Cotton?

  The absolute, and when you're laughing so much, no sound comes out.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  You're laughing so much that like you, I actually have memories with my friends, like my, like my friends from school. Where I'm like, we all have the same like brain, like we are so in sync right now. Everything, we don't even have to say the joke.

• 1:06:09Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  We're just looking at each other and we know the joke. I had a birthday party a few weeks ago, I know we're supposed to be ending, but had a birthday party a few weeks ago. And it was the best party I've ever been to in my whole life. It was just all my best friends and I have a lot of them. And it was just, I thought, I thought it starts at three, by midnight, people will be gone. Six in the morning, not a single person had left.

• 1:06:31Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love it.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Like, no one wanted to leave. We were like, this is electric. My neighbours hate me, I'm sure.

• 1:06:36Fearne Cotton?

  Of course they do.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  No one's made eye contact with me.

• 1:06:38Fearne Cotton?

  They detest you.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  But it was worth it. I won't do it again, but it was worth it. So that is my happy place. Being with my friends, my dog being there, my friends.

• 1:06:46Fearne Cotton?

  Heaven.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's everything. They're your, they're your chosen family. They're the people that you love. It's the best.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  It's the best.

• 1:06:53Fearne Cotton?

  Grace, you are the best and.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  So are you, fun.

• 1:06:57Fearne Cotton?

  Good luck with your tour. I'm coming. I can't bloody wait. And when we meet up, get me the blue or green version of that bag.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go and get you. Do you want blue? The blue was really chic. I'm gonna get you the blue. When we meet up for spicy margaritas, I'm gonna bring you this. It's from Chapel Road Market. It was eight pounds.

• 1:07:11Fearne Cotton?

  I can't wait.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  I'm gonna bring you one. Yeah, I'm gonna get you matching.

• 1:07:15Fearne Cotton?

  Love you, Grace.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Love you. Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:07:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, fuck me, that was good. I needed that. That felt like a therapy session in many ways. I absolutely adored it and I can't wait to get my hands on that mini blue slash green plastic bag that is not big enough to put anything in. I don't even have a dog, so I can't put poo bags in it. It's gonna literally have mints in it and one door key. Cause I've got so many keychains on my keys. But anyway, love it nonetheless. Grace is gonna be at the Edinburgh Fringe this August. So if you're heading there, you absolutely must go and see her show. She is fantastic. Right, a massive thanks again to Grace and to you. Love you.

• 1:08:18Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

• 1:08:31Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 1:08:32Speaker 07

  And I'm Marco Bortella.

• 1:08:34Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 1:08:37Speaker 07

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 1:08:45Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 1:08:52Speaker 07

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 1:08:55Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 1:08:57Speaker 07

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 1:09:00Fearne Cotton?

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.