Joe Lycett: "Nerves and excitement are the same!" How to reframe anxiety

Do you find yourself cringing at your younger self? Did you lose yourself in the early part of parenthood? Do you wonder if who you’re being is who you really are? It’s check, check, and check for comedian Joe Lycett. In this chat with Fearne, Joe reflects on how much of his stage persona has become who he actually is, why paternity leave triggered a lot of existential crises all at once, and how he’s come out the other side caring a lot less about what anyone thinks. Fearne and Joe also wonder if the art of losing your inhibitions is gone forever thanks to camera phones, and why playing around and making mistakes is so important as an adult. Plus, how have Ant and Dec accidentally changed how Joe behaves at hotels? And, why is it you can always trust that you'll find community at the pub? Joe loves the human chaos of it, so he’s opening his own, but only for one hour a week... The Lycett Arms airs live on Channel 4 on Friday nights at 10pm, starting Friday 4th September. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Alain De Botton https://pod.fo/e/20c7c8 Ant and Dec https://pod.fo/e/37b877 Philippa Perry https://pod.fo/e/401e76 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that learns from other people's ideas and values. Today, I'm chatting to Joe Lysit.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Where I'd got to before the paternity leave is I'd got a bit stiff and lost who I was a little bit as well. But also, there's lots of caught up in my identity as a public persona, I suppose. Lots of people were surprised when I had a child with a woman because they were like, but you're the gay man. And I've never said that I'm gay because I've never been gay. And then I was like, do I have an idea of what I am actually? On stage, I played on these things because they're funny ultimately. But how much of that has filtered into what I actually am? And is the stage persona the same as me? And these things oscillate a lot.

• 0:47Fearne Cotton?

  You're right, you lovely lot. How's your summer going so far? If you've got kids, we are on day 8,040 of the summer holidays. How are we doing? I was lucky enough to have a little holiday with my kids. Well, it's over a week ago now. I am still doing laundry from that very trip. It's just endless. Why am I still doing laundry from that holiday? And I'm still also in the transitional state from holiday to normal life, where I am deeply considering moving to Ibiza to become a paddleboard instructor, to leave my worries and troubles behind. I think I have that existential crisis every time I come back from a holiday. Am I

• 1:32Fearne Cotton?

  going to open a juice bar? Why am I living in London? Why am I always stressed out and rushing? Why am I rushing? Rushing all the time. So I'm trying to desperately hold on to that relaxed, chilled out feeling of being away where the only decision you have to make is what bikini are you going to put on. But anyway, apart from that, I'm absolutely bloody marvellous. And I was so thrilled to have Joe Lysit in our Happy Place studio to have a chat. I love Joe. I love Joe for many reasons. I actually think about Joe every day because I've got one of his

• 2:11Fearne Cotton?

  prints on my hallway wall. And it's this beautiful floral background. And the words he's painted on top of these lovely flowers says, everything is fucked. And I love the sentiment of that. And it makes me laugh every day. So I think of Joe regularly. But I love following Joe's art journey online. I love Joe's style of painting. Obviously, he's bloody hilarious. And I love watching his comedy and his stand up. His latest project is so brilliant. We talk about it a lot in this chat. He has properly applied for a pub licence for just one hour a week, from 10 until 11pm on a Friday night. He's going to open the Lysit Arms. And all the

• 2:54Fearne Cotton?

  chaos that happens at this pub is going to be broadcast live on Channel 4. I am so here for it. The chaos of live TV. Bring it on. He'll tell you all about that in a moment.

• 3:08Speaker 02

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• 5:09Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 5:33Fearne Cotton?

  How are you, Joe?

• 5:34Speaker 01

  I'm good. I'm really good, actually. I feel like I've found a nice balance. Because when you first have a child, the balance really is child heavy.

• 5:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  And there's lots of lovely stuff about that. But I started to go, am I just a carer to a baby now? Is that my entire life?

• 5:53Fearne Cotton?

  Because you had, what, a year off work?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  I took a year off.

• 5:56Fearne Cotton?

  That's amazing.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  And I was ready for all sorts of reasons to take a year off. So it wasn't just to have a baby, but it was, I thought, if ever there's a good excuse to take a year off, it's to have a baby. And that was a great year in lots of ways. But I missed myself, if you know what I mean, and being silly on stage, on camera, doing my job, essentially. So I do feel like I've found a nice mix of doing a bit of work, but I'm still doing bedtimes and making pancakes in the morning and all those things. And I've managed to find a nice happy medium there. So.

• 6:28Fearne Cotton?

  What was your first day back at work? Because I remember with Honey, I went back to work, I'm not joking, like, three weeks after I just took her with me. But with my son, my first, I took six months, pretty much, to the day off. And I remember my first show back at Radio One, it was a Justin Timberlake Live Lounge special.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:46Fearne Cotton?

  And I thought, I don't know how to speak.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:49Fearne Cotton?

  Let alone to him. And there was an audience. And I was just like, my tits were leaking. I was like, I just don't know how this is meant to work. And I'd been doing like a baby voice for six months. So I had to sort of drop that.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:02Fearne Cotton?

  I found it very discombobulating.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  My tits are leaking now. I mean, they're still, two years later. I think it was a stand up gig. I think I just put in some little work in progress gigs. But it is the speaking that is, and still, I feel like my grasp of words is not what it was. And sometimes I go, I know what I want to say, but I had four hours sleep last night and I'm never going to get to it. And I also become very aware that I get quite, not serious, but sort of earnest. And I listened to myself on a podcast the other day, and I didn't say anything funny for 15 minutes. And I was like, you're literally, your job is to be funny. So what happened there? And I was like, I was listening to, like, willing myself, there's an opportunity for

• 7:43Speaker 01

  a punchline there. No, you're not going to take it. But I think it's just, you're so tired that you are just sort of getting through the thing in front of you.

• 7:52Fearne Cotton?

  You are.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  And you're not necessarily doing anything to the best of your ability.

• 7:57Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  But it doesn't matter as well. I think that's what it sort of showed me, really, is that who cares, really? It's like, this isn't a job, is it?

• 8:04Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's nonsense.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  We're just sat in a room having a chat. Not a job.

• 8:08Fearne Cotton?

  It's absolute nonsense.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  So I feel like I've got a healthy view of my life and career and a healthy lack of respect for everything that I'm doing.

• 8:21Fearne Cotton?

  Love that. So the year you took off, did you classify that as paternity leave? Did your partner go back to work and you were kind of?

• 8:27Speaker 01

  No, we both took the year.

• 8:29Fearne Cotton?

  You both took the year?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, we both, I just, I'd worked really hard and I'd sort of done like, about a year's work in two months, sort of before The Punisher, as I call him publicly, was born. And I just, I felt like I'd done loads of things that I wanted to do. And I'd run out of steam a little bit. And I just felt like this is, I don't want to regret going off and doing a stand up tour or whatever and missing all these things that happened in that first year. And so I just said, it's a year. And by and large, stuck to it. I mean, contractually, I had to go on Lorraine. So I went on Lorraine.

• 9:10Fearne Cotton?

  There's always a Lorraine, every year.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  You've got to. Yeah. Every year, you have to see Lorraine. And I didn't begrudge that because she's one of the greatest people alive. So went to see Lorraine. And then that was me done, basically. And the other first six months, I was in a very lovely baby bubble. That was great. And just couldn't believe it. You're sort of like, this human exists, and they're the most important person ever, all of those things. And then six months, I'd had a real identity crisis. And I sort of went through everything in my head. I think it's because you're awake at such weird times and you're sort of stomping around a park at 5am, trying to get him asleep and all those things where you're just sort of, it's a lot

• 9:54Speaker 01

  of what appears like madness and could be madness. And I just reflected on loads of things in my career and just was a bit embarrassed by it all. And a bit like, you know, it's so naff to be a comedian. What a silly thing to do. Like, it's so pathetic, needy.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  So I did all of that sort of, and I suppose because I'd just started when I was nineteen and then I was just in my career and just going on to the next thing, that I didn't really have a long period of reflection on what I'd done. And, you know, I basically had the hangover from every night out that I'd had for twenty years suddenly arrive in one go.

• 10:32Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you've got the time and space to process it all. And I, I totally, like what you've just said resonates massively. I still think that about a lot of things I do, like what, what is, what am I doing? What the fuck am I doing? But actually, I have, you know, like, done the full circle processing of it and it doesn't actually matter. Like, what I wanna do is enjoy my job, which I feel insanely lucky to do. Like, most of it is enjoyable, some of it's a bit boring, some of it I hate. The majority I really enjoy.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:05Fearne Cotton?

  And I wanna be able to support my children. And it is that simple. It doesn't have to be any grander. I don't have to be like doing anything worthy or changing the world. I'll hopefully put positive content out at best.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  But also, this, we all have egos, don't we? And we wouldn't have got into, into this mess.

• 11:23Fearne Cotton?

  I know, why are we doing this?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  If we didn't have an ego. And so there is a part of us that you sort of have to accept that is like, I want to be adored by everyone in the world and I want to be really important and I want everyone to go, wow, he's very smart and sensible and clever and funny. You want, you want all of those things as well. But unfortunately, I'm, I'm not all of those things and often none of them. And people dislike me. So sometimes you'll get sort of messages telling you that. And so the, the reality of the world is that you're, everything's fine. And there's, there's a Mr. Bingo, who's a great artist, who, who is a friend of mine and he has an artwork, which is a circle.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  The, most of the circle is anxiety about the next thing. And then there's a tiny bit of the thing of the circle and it says, the thing being fine. And then the arrow goes back round and it's, that's, that's all life is. Anxiety about the next thing, the thing's fine, anxiety and that is, that's life.

• 12:22Fearne Cotton?

  And even if it's not fine, you muddle through it and you find a way.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:26Fearne Cotton?

  You go through a shit show and you come out the other side of it.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:29Fearne Cotton?

  How do you feel now about being liked or being adored? I personally have come to the conclusion, after lots of therapy and writing a whole book about this subject, I'll probably never lose that like innate desire for people to like me or walk away thinking, oh, I've had a pleasant time with that person or they didn't make me feel like shit.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:52Fearne Cotton?

  But equally, if someone doesn't like me and I've had all the messages telling me I'm a twat, etc., like we all have.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  I shouldn't have sent them, I'm sorry.

• 12:59Fearne Cotton?

  We'll talk about that later. But I sort of care, well, do I care less? I'm okay in the discomfort of that.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:06Fearne Cotton?

  I can survive the discomfort, whereas about ten years ago, I found that excruciating because I believed it meant that I was deeply flawed in some way and I, I wasn't aware of it.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that, yeah, you, you think, oh, well, they're right.

• 13:19Fearne Cotton?

  They're right.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Because the sort of the, the deepest part of you kind of goes, there's, there's, not the deepest part of you, but there's, there's parts of me that go, well, of course, everyone's completely bang on, I'm, you know, it's all the, what do they call it? The syndrome, imposter syndrome.

• 13:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  I think I'm still vulnerable to it. I still, and I think it's a generous thing to want people to leave, having had a nice time. But I'm also aware that I'm terrible at names, so I would love to be Tom Cruise and remember everyone forever, but I can't and I don't. And I constantly forget people and I sort of see them and go, oh, oh, yeah. And like, particularly if they're out of context, but there's no chance I'm gonna remember them. But I forgot my own auntie's name the other day. Like, I'm like, it's, it's a kind of equal opportunities forgetfulness.

• 14:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And on stage, forgetting the names of comedians when I'm introducing them, that's become a bit of a problem.

• 14:11Fearne Cotton?

  That makes me feel like I'm gonna puke.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Happened last night, actually, and it, I was like, and next up, it's, and then it did come to me, but there was a second where I was like, I don't know who's next up.

• 14:22Fearne Cotton?

  I can faint for you.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's things like that which are, you know, if you're the person whose name is being forgotten, that's not, they've not had a nice experience there. So I'm constantly doing that where I'm sort of, sort of low level upsetting people. So I'm, you know, there's lots of things about me that are unlikable. I'm sure, you know, and obviously it's subjective and certain things people find likeable and not. And it's sort of, the thing to remember is really, it is not up to you. Like, it is, you do just have to sort of do your thing and try and be mindful and try and be kind and all of these things. But to kind of get out of the kind of rut of going, I'm awful and everyone hates me, you do just have to sort of go, I think I'm doing my best and my best will sometimes

• 15:09Speaker 01

  not be enough. And my best, even at my ultimate best, will still not be enough for some people and you'll still get it wrong. And you just have to kind of go, that's life, isn't it, ultimately? Because otherwise you will just sort of sit in a room and not do anything.

• 15:24Fearne Cotton?

  Well, exactly, especially with this weird job that you do and that I do, is, there is an element where you have to be completely yourself and look relaxed being yourself. So if you're overthinking every word that you say, every mannerism, the way you're expressing things, that start, I started to become like a very beige version of myself, probably at the end of my Radio One career, because I was so terrified that everyone hated me, because that's what I felt was the, the truth of the situation.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:49Fearne Cotton?

  So I started to sort of, I don't know, like dial down everything and you just feel like shit. Like, you've just gotta be yourself and it's up to the audience whether they like you or not.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  And that's probably where I'd got to at the end of my, kind of before the paternity leave, is I'd sort of got a bit stiff and a bit, and, and sort of lost who I was a little bit as well. But also there's sort of lots of caught up in like, I suppose, my sort of identity as a public persona, I suppose. Lots of people were surprised when I had a child with a woman because they were like, but you're the gay man. You know, there's sort of, and I've never said that I'm gay because I've never been gay, but because I'm camp and I, you know, do innuendo and all those sorts of things, that people have this idea of what that is. And then I was like, well, have I, do I have an idea of what I am actually? Like, on stage, I kind of played on these things because they're funny ultimately, but how much of that has filtered into what I actually am?

• 16:43Speaker 01

  And is the stage persona the sort of same as me? And, you know, these things sort of oscillate a lot. And when I started doing stand up, my stage persona was basically me at a party and just getting that like neediness out on stage. But now, I mean, I'm saying in my stand up at the minute, I don't think I'd start doing stand up now because it's such a high risk thing to do and involves so much brain power and so much vulnerability and all of that, that I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't have the courage to do it now. It was, it was very much a nineteen year old me going like, I'll have a go at that, I'll have a go at that.

• 17:15Fearne Cotton?

  Young and naive. Do you think you know who you are? I, I often don't have a clue and I think that's maybe quite healthy.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Hmm. I don't, yeah, probably not, yeah. I mean, I'm surprised myself all the time, like, oh, that came out of me. And when you're on stage and you're in flow.

• 17:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  And things are coming out of you that you've just not, you've not thought about, but they're kind of amazing and you're responding to a heckler or whatever, and you're like, where did that come from? So, no, really. And I know, I, I suppose I know myself better in that I know what I have to do to facilitate being in flow or being happy or, you know, not getting grumpy or whatever those things are. You get better at understanding those things, but the mechanics of what's actually happening there, I have no idea.

• 18:00Fearne Cotton?

  What, what does keep you feeling happy then? Is it the basics?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Uh, sleep is the, like, the key one for me, which, newsflash, you don't have when you have a child, so that's a real problem.

• 18:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  But it's got a lot better. The first year, I think that's another thing, the first year of the sleep was bad.

• 18:18Fearne Cotton?

  Have you done teething? I can't remember the timeline. Yeah, you're in it, you're in it now.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, teething's happened.

• 18:23Fearne Cotton?

  Teething's happened. But you're actually, you're approaching transition from cot to bed.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 18:28Fearne Cotton?

  Or cot to cot bed.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Cot bed, yeah, yeah.

• 18:31Fearne Cotton?

  Both awful.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:32Fearne Cotton?

  Terrible times ahead.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, thanks.

• 18:39Fearne Cotton?

  Cot to bed is arguably the worst bit.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 18:42Fearne Cotton?

  Cot to bed is a fucking nightmare.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Why?

• 18:45Fearne Cotton?

  Because they don't stay in it. Because they're like, oh, there's no bars, I'll just get out.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:49Fearne Cotton?

  I'll just keep getting out again and again and again and again.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  We are talking about maybe hobbling him early so that he can't leave. So like, just sort of tether him to some sort of part of the house so that he can't, you know? And then if he tries to apply for jobs, then ring up and say, you do know that he's an arse and it's, you know, sort of just, just restrict his ability to leave us.

• 19:09Fearne Cotton?

  That's one way to deal with it, I'd say.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  I think that's healthy, isn't it?

• 19:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  That's fine.

• 19:14Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's absolutely fine. Talking about like the weirdness of doing this sort of public facing thing, whether it's stand up, whatever, you're doing podcasts. Do you have those same vulnerabilities, insecurities when you're painting?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:27Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, particularly because I just did an exhibition and so I knew that they were going to be sort of for the world. And when you're, when you're painting and just chucking it on Instagram, I mean, more people probably see them on Instagram, but feels throwaway in a way that doing an exhibition felt very much like people are coming to see this and they have, you know, they're, they're leaving their homes to come and look at this thing. And yeah, some of the stuff in the exhibition is, you know, paintings of people that I've, it's, the whole exhibition is things that are no longer with us. And some of the paintings are people that have died, friends of mine, people that I admired, people who, you know, might have loved ones that might come along to the exhibition and

• 20:09Speaker 01

  will, you know, see their people that they've lost in my kind of style. So that felt very vulnerable and scary. But actually there's, in a way that stand up and sort of speaking, public speaking doesn't allow, you can do it again, you know? So there's lots of paintings that I was like, I'm not happy with how I've depicted this person or this thing, so I'll just do another version and get to the point where I am. So there's a bit more kind of refining that I could do. But yeah, I do feel there is a kind of, it's a great, I mean, you paint beautifully and I'm sure you feel the same, that like there's a headspace you get into when you're creating

• 20:50Speaker 01

  that is magic and is completely the place I want to be, basically, at all times.

• 20:56Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  I want to be in that sort of loose, fluid, thoughts come in and pass by.

• 21:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And you're not, because you're, because you're focused on some other thing, but you can allow these things to come in and out. And great way of listening to podcasts or audiobooks or whatever, because you, you take them in in a way that you definitely wouldn't if you were just sort of sat listening to things. So it's my, the thing that consistently throughout my life has brought me solace, joy, happiness, contentment is making. I mean, it doesn't really matter what it is. It's that having a focus. When I was a kid, it was making little animations on the computer, how it's painting or sculpting or, you know, doing more with my hands, I suppose, gardening. But like essentially having something that you're focused in on that isn't just, am I, how am I feeling today?

• 21:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  You'll find out when you put the brush on the canvas.

• 21:49Fearne Cotton?

  Same. I feel, I've tried to distill it down over the years and I used to be quite, sort of adrenalised when I was painting, like it was a real rush and it was like manic and it was, you know, staying up late and music blaring. And now actually when I'm painting, I just feel well.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 22:07Fearne Cotton?

  It's that simple. I feel well.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:09Fearne Cotton?

  Like everything is okay in my world, in this moment.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  But it can also be chaotic and like a party.

• 22:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Because you can do an artwork, if you put a big bit of canvas up and you just, I've got this studio in my house now where I just nail a bit of canvas to the wall.

• 22:24Fearne Cotton?

  Love.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  And then just get different paints and just whack it on and see how it feels and put on a, some house music, have a beer. It can't, it doesn't have to be, most of the time for me, it is like sitting, calm, bit of folk music and all that. But you can, you can also do the chaos one.

• 22:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And so it doesn't have to, you, you, you can do all of the human emotion whilst painting, but feel well as you're doing it and not feel like you're at a party and not really knowing what to say to people.

• 22:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  And then you've got something to put on the wall at the end.

• 22:56Fearne Cotton?

  To show at the end.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:57Fearne Cotton?

  That's for me is like having something tangible at the end of the day.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:00Fearne Cotton?

  That came from nowhere, came from nothing.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:04Fearne Cotton?

  I loved your giant woolly mammoth, Martin?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Martin.

• 23:07Fearne Cotton?

  Martin.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:08Fearne Cotton?

  He was great.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Thank you. I'm really proud of him.

• 23:11Fearne Cotton?

  I bet you, where's he gonna live?

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Well, he's.

• 23:14Fearne Cotton?

  Is he still in Birmingham in the museum?

• 23:15Speaker 01

  He will be in Birmingham until February. So if you know anyone that wants a almost life-size pink mammoth.

• 23:22Fearne Cotton?

  Wish I could fit him in the front room, they're so up my street.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Well, you know, let's keep talking.

• 23:26Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Because I do need someone to take him off my hands because he's definitely not going in my house. But yeah, like, and that, that's the other side of things is when you collaborate with other people, you get to be in that headspace with other people. Because they're, you know, particularly when you're doing the, we did a lot of rug hooking for that. So you're just sat with people and they're focused in on doing rug hooking, you're rug hooking, so you're not looking at one another, you can, there's a whole thing about men, particularly like they pick up on micro facial expressions apparently more so than women, which surprises me, which is why I think men prefer to like go to the football or go on a walk and that's when they connect, rather than looking at another person.

• 24:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  And so if you're doing like rug hooking or some activity, I just felt that I was getting really interesting conversation out of people that I probably wouldn't have got out of them if we were just sat down. And I was saying more interesting things or more kind of deep things because I wasn't censoring myself in the way that I might do if I wasn't focused in on something else.

• 24:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  So you can, being creative with other people is great as well.

• 24:27Fearne Cotton?

  The best.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  It's just so good for you. And I hate this, I do think the art world is in some ways to blame for this sort of, it has to be excellent, it has to be new and it has to be all of these things. And actually that stops people from doing it because they go, well, I'm not very good at this, so I'm not going to try because I'd have to dedicate my whole life to it. And actually, everybody should be doing some sort of drawing, painting, getting a ball of soil and turning it into a pot, whatever it is.

• 24:55Fearne Cotton?

  Agreed.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Because it's so good for you. And like, I mean, there's studies that say it adds years on your life. Make something, it will help you.

• 25:05Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. And I think the, the art world thing is so interesting and I've had so many conversations recently, I've been working on landscape artist of the year, which comes out next year, hosting it and talking to Ava, who's amazing, she curator, runs Freeze Festival and is just the most brilliant woman. And I was really honest with her and said like, to me, you are the coolest person on the planet, like I'm not worthy, I don't know enough about art, I'm just a fan. And she was like, what a load of shit, like you, you like art, you like art. And you know, yes, she's very studied in the subject matter and knows a lot about it. But actually it should just be about the pure enjoyment, like what it makes you feel, even if it's just looking at art. But certainly when it's partaking, get stuck in.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Yes. And but it's interesting because I've, I'm enjoying your series of you talking about art that you like.

• 25:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  And I noticed in the, one of the ones that I watched that you sort of caveated it, where you went, I'm not, I'm not, you know, you sort of immediately sort of went, please, you know, I'm not, I'm not an expert, but this is what, things that I like.

• 26:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  And I think you wouldn't do the same about like comedy or music. You wouldn't go, I'm not, I'm not a musical historian, but I do like.

• 26:15Fearne Cotton?

  I know, it's so weird.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  But there's something about the art world where you feel like, because the institutions are so impressive.

• 26:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  And there is so much history to it and there's all these movements and all of this. And the book that I found really helpful for this was, I think he's called John Armstrong and Alain de Botton wrote a book called Art as Therapy. And I found it so refreshing because it basically sort of debunked all of those sort of stuffy parts of the art world and gave some really practical ways that the art world could improve. And one of the ideas in there, which I loved was about curation and how most galleries curate based on movements or historical periods or locations. So they'll say Italian paintings from 18, whatever. And you go and look at them and you might enjoy them, but there's no understanding

• 27:04Speaker 01

  or context as to why that affects, why that should be relevant to you now in 2026. And they suggest that actually galleries should be presented as this floor is to do with love and this floor is to do with family. And these artworks are from all different periods of time, whatever, but they all help with family. And you go around and it might help you, it might not help you, but they should all, something should help you if you've got an issue with grief or whatever.

• 27:29Fearne Cotton?

  What a great plan.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I was immediately like, yes, that is, I would love to go to that gallery. I, I think there's space for, you know, a kind of a retrospective of Hockney and all of his works because they all come from a similar place. There's, there's space for all of that. But I'd love much more about like, come to the grief show.

• 27:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it'd be amazing to have that because sometimes you don't know why you're feeling a certain feeling. It's just like, this picture is powerful and I don't quite know why or who this artist even is.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:57Fearne Cotton?

  We had Alain de Botton on the podcast quite a few years ago now and he was fascinating.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  What a guy.

• 28:02Fearne Cotton?

  Fascinating. I could have spoken to him for weeks on end.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I'm a bit scared of him because I feel like he could run a cult quite well. Do you know what I mean? He's so smart.

• 28:11Fearne Cotton?

  So smart.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Okay, Alan, yeah, I'm sucking you off now, am I?

• 28:17Fearne Cotton?

  That didn't happen during the podcast.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  That's good to know.

• 28:19Fearne Cotton?

  Just a warning.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:20Fearne Cotton?

  In case you were expecting something.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  I won't listen now, I think, fine, yeah.

• 28:24Fearne Cotton?

  You do feel like he's looking through into your soul so that you can't hide any element of your personality. It's like very exposing the whole thing.

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• 30:50Fearne Cotton?

  My mum started painting. My dad's a brilliant painter. And my mum has always thought of herself as not being an artistic person. And then when my mum and dad both stopped working, they joined this art club locally to them. And my mum is producing amazing, like, she's got a style. I don't feel like I've got a style. I'm still yet to find what the hell that is. She's got a style and it's, it definitely gives her that like headspace every week and a little moment of joy and there's other people there. And we need more art clubs in this country.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it is, for lots of obvious reasons, the domain of children and pensioners because they've got the time.

• 31:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  And also that feeling of like, it doesn't really matter, it's just a hobby. Whereas I think when you're in sort of middle life, you feel like either it needs to sort of be contributing to your career or something.

• 31:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Or ultimately, you know, something that is helping you with your mental health or whatever. And actually, I just, yeah, I get very sad when anyone says that, oh, I'm not very creative or whatever, because you are.

• 31:50Fearne Cotton?

  Everyone is.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  You just have to play. It's play, basically. And I don't know where, whether that's just something that our society has developed of like making things and painting or whatever has to stop at sort of 16 and then you have to grow up and unless you're going to take it seriously. Because I do just think that's totally wrong.

• 32:10Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. I think it probably starts in schools because it's always seen as like the, oh, it's the nothingy subject. It's the, that was my subject at school that was like my sanity through high school was having art class to go to. I'd go to every extracurricular, like anything to do with painting.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:24Fearne Cotton?

  I was in that room, but it's still seen as like, no, no, algebra is far more important. Arguably, you're going to use art more than you are algebra in most jobs in life in terms of like visually looking at the world around you and being in awe, finding beauty in things. But we're still not putting any importance on it at all.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  No, well, I mean, successive governments have cut it all over the place as well. And I think the space for all of these things, like I think algebra can be very beautiful and creative. Like maths, when you like, I love physics and I'm frustrated about my lack of knowledge in maths because maths is the language of physics.

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  So to really understand physics, you kind of need to know equations. But equations are such beautiful things. Like there's, there's a real magic in those and so much creativity. And, you know, Einstein was an artist essentially, you know? So I think it's, it doesn't matter what form your creativity takes. It could be maths, it could be engineering, any of these things. It all involves you making creative decisions and thoughts. Yeah, so I sort of, I think it's all part of the same thing, really.

• 33:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  But I think because maybe there's this idea that it's sort of to do with financial GDP output that governments kind of go, well, art is this, they can't really quantify it properly and they don't, it's not tangible to them, so they don't really invest in it.

• 33:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  But the reason galleries are so impressive and you get to the Tate or, you know, these buildings are huge, amazing things is at some stage, our society valued these things and built buildings that were impressive to hold them. And now we go, hmm, we might have to close that.

• 34:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it breaks my heart. It makes my, if I have a day or an afternoon off work, that is my dream afternoon is, and I do come out like buzzing, I'm so inspired. It could be watching a good film, actually. Like the other night, I was really lacking in inspiration and I watched The Invite the other day.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Oh, is it good?

• 34:18Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking brilliant.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:19Fearne Cotton?

  Beyond funny, clever, slick. It is one of the best things I've seen. And afterwards, I was buzzing with like, my creative juices were flowing. And I think we all need to feel that, whether it's cinema or a picture or a great book, whatever. We do need the relief from just life in general.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:39Fearne Cotton?

  As well as, you know, you're like juggling all of this stuff. So you're, you're, you're father, you're doing stand-up, you're painting, which is a hobby that's also become part of your career. You've got other new projects on the go. How important is it for you or for your own sanity maybe to have like lots of things going on? Is it, you need to be distracted, you need to prove something to yourself?

• 35:00Speaker 01

  I get bored very easily, so I, but also I love process. So for whatever reason, I was talking to a friend about this the other day. There's, there's a part of me that isn't scared of trying a new thing.

• 35:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And almost drawn to the new thing more than the old thing. And so I, particularly with this exhibition, you know, the big sculpture, I've never done a big sculpture like Martin before. We did stained glass. I did collaborations with artists that were like sort of a bit more sort of mixed media-y things and lots of stuff that was out of my comfort zone. But if I see somebody making something like pottery or something and I've not done it before and I can see them doing it, I go, well, I could try that. I wouldn't do it as well as they're doing it, but it would be something that I'd made for me. And so why not? Let's have a go. Oh, I'm terrible at it, but I might get better. So I'm not, I'm not intimidated by anything, like making anything

• 35:56Speaker 01

  and would love basically 100 lifetimes to do everything that I would like to do. So I get obsessed about a little thing over here and I get really into it for a while. And then I kind of go, all right, I've got enough out of that as I can right now. And then I get inspired by something else. And so it's sort of, it's a kind of, I want the thing finished, really. So if I have an idea for a short film or something, I'd love for it to be done immediately. But then you don't learn anything without making it. So then I do just end up kind of getting really obsessed with like an idea and then it has to exist and sort of become, until it exists, I have just, I'm in some sort of, I don't know what headspace it is, but it's like a kind of bulldozery style.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  It's going to happen.

• 36:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hyper focus.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:44Fearne Cotton?

  I'm the same, absolutely the same. So you've decided to have your own pub?

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:49Fearne Cotton?

  Part, another thing to do?

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Well, that, yeah, yeah. Well, this just comes out of my love of live TV because I'm so bored of TV that's pre-recorded.

• 36:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  I just don't want to do pickups.

• 37:02Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  When people go.

• 37:03Fearne Cotton?

  Noddy's.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Noddy's, Noddy's pickups, anything that's not real. I saw, so Spencer Jones, who's one of my favorite comedians and artists, actually, he, I saw him at the Edinburgh Festival. I try and see him every opportunity because he's so creative and so funny. And he was talking about the Fenton video.

• 37:22Fearne Cotton?

  Ah.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  And he was saying.

• 37:24Fearne Cotton?

  One of the best things ever.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he, and he distilled it down. He basically said, when we are wandering around in life, we are presenting like a version of ourselves, the clothes that we wear, the way we speak, the way we hold ourselves, we're kind of putting on a bit of an artifice. And then you sort of trip over a step and go, oh, and that's the real you. And the Fenton video, the reason we love it is it's three minutes of him being the real him. And I was like, exactly that.

• 37:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  And live TV facilitates that.

• 37:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  At certain points.

• 37:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  And but it also has the artifice. So you start with like, welcome to the show and we're doing all of that. But at some point, hopefully, I'll trip over and then you'll see the real me and that will be the best bit of the show. For me, I'll be like, yes, great. Like I'm in a moment where somebody said something to me and I don't know how to respond to it. That's the moment you want.

• 38:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  And live TV is that.

• 38:12Fearne Cotton?

  And at its best, like, I'm a bit older than you, but I think our generation grew up with like TFI Friday, Big Breakfast.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 38:18Fearne Cotton?

  Live and kicking, SMTV.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:20Fearne Cotton?

  It was chaos.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:22Fearne Cotton?

  And that's why we watched it. There was nothing slick about any of those shows.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:25Fearne Cotton?

  Like TFI was absolute carnage from start to finish and I never missed an episode.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  And it was real, that's the thing.

• 38:31Fearne Cotton?

  So real.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  It's like it's humans being humans and it's all very relatable. And I think when you watch like certain shows, which have, you can tell that they've, you know, they've done a pickup and you've got an answer from someone that's just slightly changed a word because they couldn't use the brand name or whatever. All these things that happen in TV. The minute I now, I'm sat in a studio and it's a pre-record and. If I'm trying to host a show like that, I just lose all of me.

• 38:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you become dead.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Welcome back and like, there's no part of me exists anymore.

• 39:02Fearne Cotton?

  No. And do you think, have we moved away from that, like, live chaos? Because cancelled culture is so prevalent and sometimes doesn't make sense that you can come away having done something that you felt was perfectly aligned with your values, but you could still be called out because you didn't know something?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, also, just, yeah, I think it's sort of, it's sort of oscillated a bit, but I do feel like people are more forgiving now and there's so many things to kind of get angry about that nobody really leans into any. Like, you can get away with sort of getting things wrong.

• 39:34Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  I think, yeah.

• 39:35Fearne Cotton?

  I don't feel like that's, the tides have turned yet.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 39:38Fearne Cotton?

  No, but I don't do enough live stuff.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Away with too much stuff, I don't know. But also, I don't feel like I'm gonna, I mean, remind me of this.

• 39:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no touch, everything touch.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  When my career's in the toilet. But I feel like if you're coming from a place of sort of goodwill.

• 39:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  You're gonna get things wrong.

• 39:56Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  But you can make them right by and large. You can sort of, you know, say something wrong in the moment. Oh, I didn't mean it like that or whatever. People get that, I think. And then if they don't, then, you know, they're not kind of coming at it in good faith. There's lots of people that I would just, you've lost the room with immediately because they don't like you anyway. So like, yeah, I don't know. And that's part of the excitement of it.

• 40:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  The kind of high wire.

• 40:19Fearne Cotton?

  This is my dream TV because, as you say, it's live, anything could happen. It's set in a pub. So you've got like pub culture, this very British pub culture woven into it. Pints of whatever people are drinking, entertainment, a quiz?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  A quiz.

• 40:35Fearne Cotton?

  Pub quizzes are my favourite.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Oh, well, this is a quiz like no other because there's no real questions. It's, some of the rounds are, I kind of don't want to spoil it. It's Jake Bardwaj, who is one of the most amazing people alive and has worked behind the scenes on lots of TV shows I've done. And has always been clearly destined for on camera stuff. And I'm really excited for what he's going to bring to it. But yeah, we're trying to essentially condense a full week of pub into one hour. So all the things that would happen in that week. So, you know, a fight might break out, you might have karaoke, you might have a quiz, you might have a comedian doing a turn. You might have some sort of drama, you might need to change a keg in the cellar and who's in the cellar. It's all these things and it happens in a condensed 46 minutes with ad breaks.

• 41:19Fearne Cotton?

  Delightful.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  And we'll see if I have a career at the end of it.

• 41:22Fearne Cotton?

  Have you ever seen a celebrity in a pub in the wild?

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sure I must have done. Yes, James McAvoy I saw in a pub and I asked him for a picture. And I was really, this was when I was a lot younger and I did it in an obnoxious way and he said no. And I, at the time was like, hmm. And now as someone older, I'm like, I completely respect that. I'm so glad that he did that to me because it made me think about, yeah, this is a human that I.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  Having a pint.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  And I was really pissed as well.

• 41:48Fearne Cotton?

  I once saw Simon Le Bon in a pub and ended up sort of joining his night.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Oh, fun.

• 41:54Fearne Cotton?

  He was with a mate and we ended up sort of like having some drinks in a pub garden.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Magic. That's what, again, pubs facilitate these things, you know. This is one of the reasons I wanted to do the show is that we're losing pubs and they are a place where humans can mix. And we're running out of those spaces. There's so much, it's one of the things that I'm resisting about Birmingham is they're trying to open some like private members clubs there. And I, I loved Soho back in the day when it was like free flowing. And there was always like a couple of, in my maybe kind of rose tinted view of Soho, there was always somewhere for you to go.

• 42:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Regardless of status or financial, whatever. And now it's like, if you don't have a card or you know somebody or whatever, you can't get in, which is such a sort of, to be frank, Tory way of looking at the world is like, well, if you haven't got the right status and you don't know the right people, you can't come into anywhere. And it just restricts so many people. But actually, the most interesting people aren't rich or high status. They're often like the people who are just observing the world and sat on a street corner most of the day having a pint. Those are the people that I'm much more interested in most of the time.

• 43:07Fearne Cotton?

  And pubs are a leveler because everyone loves going to a pub.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. So the minute you kind of make it a membership situation, you've sort of lost me there because I think, well, unless your membership is everyone, then it's not that interesting and it becomes like a bit of a kind of display of.

• 43:22Fearne Cotton?

  It's a status thing.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Status and wealth.

• 43:24Fearne Cotton?

  I once.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Don't get me wrong, you know, I love a bougie, you know, a bougie night out at Bvington House. But I wouldn't like the whole world to be Bvington House.

• 43:34Fearne Cotton?

  Events that are coming your way. I once had a near miss with Robert Plant in a pub in Dorset. I got there and someone was like, you've just missed Robert Plant and he's one of my ultimate heroes. I was devastated about that.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  But that wouldn't, well, it would happen in Bvington House probably, but it wouldn't, you know, a normie wouldn't be in Bvington House. They'd be in a Wetherspoons somewhere and you want Robert Plant to go into a Wetherspoons.

• 43:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, so brilliant. Have you got a karaoke song that you like to do?

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Lose Yourself by Eminem.

• 44:03Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, nice.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Because I don't know the first two verses off by heart, but I do know the last one.

• 44:08Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  So I'll do the first two off screen and people go, oh, he's having a good go. And then suddenly I'm off screen. I'm walking around the room and everyone's losing their minds.

• 44:18Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. I know the last word in every sentence in Beastie Boys Intergalactic.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  That's all you need. That's all you need.

• 44:26Fearne Cotton?

  So I go, walk, run. And I feel like I'm doing it, but I'm missing out, the whole sentence is absent.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  There's a remix waiting to happen there.

• 44:37Fearne Cotton?

  I think so. I think, I haven't done karaoke very much in my life, which feels like it needs to be rectified. I've done it twice. Once was ABBA Dancing Queen in Mallorca. It was a two star hotel in Alcudia and me and my friend won, but there were only two contestants.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Fine.

• 44:58Fearne Cotton?

  But we won a bottle of wine.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  You're a winner.

• 45:01Fearne Cotton?

  I'm a winner. And then the second time was with, it was a Radio One gathering at a bowling alley and I was absolutely shitfaced. And I chose, and this is, this proves the level of shitfacedness, Adele, what's the song called? Set Fire to the.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, Set Fire to the Rain. Yeah.

• 45:20Fearne Cotton?

  I chose an Adele song.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Wow. And how did that go for you?

• 45:23Fearne Cotton?

  So badly. And Greg James videoed it. So there is somewhere, I'm hoping it's been wiped on an old laptop.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Texting him after this. I will be texting him.

• 45:31Fearne Cotton?

  But I've always had a feeling privately, like when I'm in my car listening to music, that I could probably do quite a good job of Bon Jovi Dead or Alive.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Why not? I mean, right now, after this, there'll be some sort of karaoke booth. You could book it out for yourself, just test it.

• 45:46Fearne Cotton?

  What, just like midday on a Wednesday?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:49Fearne Cotton?

  Go and.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  What's stopping you from doing that? Yourself.

• 45:52Fearne Cotton?

  Every fibre in my body stopping me from doing that.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Well.

• 45:56Fearne Cotton?

  But I do, there is a, there is a slight desire that I should, I should do it at some point.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Well, I'm happy to facilitate that. If you, if you want, you know, a calm, friendly presence, I will come and sit and I'll give notes afterwards. But they'll be from a compassionate place.

• 46:13Fearne Cotton?

  I think, do you know what? I think the first 30 seconds would be very awkward because I'd be really aware of how my singing voice sounds.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Why am I in a booth with Joe Lysit singing Bon Jovi? How has this happened? Seemed like a fun idea when he mentioned it. Now the reality is awkward. And really, I mean, he has other things that he needs to get to, but he's cancelled them. And I should go see my kids, but here I am singing Bon Jovi in central London.

• 46:36Fearne Cotton?

  But I do think I would get into it after 30 seconds. If I could lose myself enough.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  From now to like for the rest of my life, just so you're aware. So it's all on you. It's up to you, your decision. I've got to film some social stuff later. We can film social stuff whenever.

• 46:53Fearne Cotton?

  I've just got to mull it over.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  We're going for karaoke.

• 46:58Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking hell. I think everyone in their lifetime once has to do it, whether you can sing or not.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Fine, yeah.

• 47:04Fearne Cotton?

  Have you got karaoke on the show?

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah. Yeah, we've got, yes, definitely darts, pool table.

• 47:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love darts. My nan and grandad were really good at darts. They had a whole spare bedroom full of darts trophies. Really niche.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  The energy of a darts game as well is exactly the sort of thing that I want to capture.

• 47:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  That kind of boozy, everyone being real, loud, really into it. I do think a lot of that's been lost just because of camera phones, like people are just scared of being filmed. I don't know if you watch any of, oh, what's his name? The guy who did Shifty and all of those brilliant documentaries? His name will come to me, Adam Curtis.

• 47:43Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  And he did an interview where he was talking about, because all of his documentaries use archive. And he basically has pinpointed the year when everyone stopped being natural on camera. And if you watch people on camera from, it's somewhere in the seventies, sort of in the sixties, people don't know what it means to be on camera. So they're just being themselves. And then suddenly in the seventies, they go, oh, well, this could be watched later. So I will, and they start to do that.

• 48:05Fearne Cotton?

  Funny.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  And so that's gone forever. Nobody will be natural in front of a camera ever again.

• 48:09Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Because we all know what it is. And that, because we're constantly surrounded by cameras everywhere, we may never be natural again as a species.

• 48:20Fearne Cotton?

  Isn't that so weird? I am so aware of that. I mean, I've been on camera since I was about 16, but I've never, ever lost that subterranean thought of, you could relax a bit more. Like, you're still not completely yourself. I don't know if I'll ever reach it.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, so one of the worst things that could happen to me is if Ant and Dec do one of those hidden camera things. Because they did one to Alison Hammond where she was in a hotel and she went into the hotel room and they had cameras in the hotel room. And I was like, the minute I get into a hotel room, I'm having a shit or a wank or both. And if Ant and Dec are watching that with a little headpiece on, I mean, it's a disaster. So like, those are, those are the safe spaces for me. And you know, after a long day, you get into a hotel room.

• 49:10Fearne Cotton?

  I can't think of it. That is terrifying to me. Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  But now, because they've done that to Alison Hammond, I basically, so sometimes, like, if I'm in my head about it and I think, I'm, I feel vulnerable, but I'm doing something like a shit or whatever. And I feel like maybe Ant and Dec are filming it because, you know, that's what they do. I just go cunt, cunt, cunt, cunt, cunt, because they can't use it then. I'll just sort of say something. I'll say something appalling. I'll accuse them of some sort of crime that they've done, something just so that Ant and Dec can't use it.

• 49:35Fearne Cotton?

  Ant and Dec have given you toilet to rats.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically.

• 49:39Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. I totally, like, this is, it's a real thing.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:44Fearne Cotton?

  The hidden camera paranoia.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And it's not their fault because Noel Edmonds did it first and someone else did it before them, before him. So, yeah.

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• 51:43Fearne Cotton?

  Obviously, you are known for pranks. I would class that as a prank.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  Pranks to me are the most uncomfortable feeling ever. I don't like the people I'm with to get the wrong idea about me, what's happening. I like absolute clarity. And I've only been pranked once on telly. This was years, I was probably like 19. It was on CBBC.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:03Fearne Cotton?

  And I was called in for a meeting.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Bastards.

• 52:05Fearne Cotton?

  Called in for a meeting at the BBC and I got in a black cab and I think I was like, I was probably picking my nose, snacking all sorts of stuff. I was panicking about after. And as I arrived in the donor at the old BBC building, they had a troupe of cheerleaders who were like singing my name and a marching band. And because I was so overwhelmed, I got teary.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that's lovely though. What a lovely response.

• 52:29Fearne Cotton?

  Embarrassing. I should have been like, whee! And I was like all choked up. Like they've done this for me. I like took it really literally. Like it was.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  No, that's lovely.

• 52:37Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know about that. But I'm not good with that feeling. How do you navigate that?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Well, I hate it as well.

• 52:44Fearne Cotton?

  Do you?

• 52:45Speaker 01

  And that real iron taste in the mouth where you're like, I've made this person uncomfortable, whatever. But I, I never did pranks for the sake of it. It was always for, for something. So it was always to take on a company or somebody doing wrong. So if I felt like it was, had a good purpose for it, what we were doing, then I didn't mind it. But I still, in the act of doing it, hated it and felt so, like you were talking about every fibre of your being, being against what you were doing. I had to sort of overcome that. And I think it was quite good in lots of ways to sort of learn that you can do something that feels so not comfortable, but push through it anyway for what I saw as a greater good at the time.

• 53:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like the David Beckham one, I can't imagine the discomfort that you had during

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:31Fearne Cotton?

  On mass global commentary about what you were doing.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And the act of, even though I knew I wasn't shredding real money, the act of doing it because people would think it was what I was actually doing was so horrible and uncomfortable. But that's quite exciting, isn't it? When you're in a place like that where you can.

• 53:50Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know if I can get to excitement. I think I'd be too panicked.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Well, this is the thing, when like, when I started doing stand-up, I was so frightened that I was just in fear until the end of the gig. And now, when I get that sort of buzz of like nerves, I can channel it now because I've done it for so long of going, how exciting, something exciting is going to happen. So it becomes not nerves, it becomes like, ooh. And I do, before any live TV now, have like a little moment where I just go, this is gonna be fun, isn't it? I don't know what's going to happen, it'll be fun.

• 54:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  And rather than go like, oh God, what if it goes badly? You have to basically just change it in your brain and go, you're feeling all of this because you're about to have fun.

• 54:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  And then you go and have fun. And actually, if you can channel it properly, those nerves are, it is the same feeling ultimately. Nerves and excitement are ultimately the same chemicals, it feels like to me, I'm sure.

• 54:40Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I've heard it, I've read it in psychology books, I've heard people say it. I've never mastered it. I used to do live TV with ease and I was absolutely fine and I felt as comfy as I would have been going into a supermarket.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:53Fearne Cotton?

  Then I had this like really bad patch of shit go down and my mental health was bad and I've never gotten back to that place.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:00Fearne Cotton?

  And I still feel more terrified, disproportionately so, than I do excited. And I can't quite meld those feelings yet and I really want to in the future because I'd love to do it again.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:13Fearne Cotton?

  I think, I think I'd love to do it again. I'd like the option to do it again. But in my head at the moment, it's like, that is not safe.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Well, trust that then as well.

• 55:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Because also, hosting live TV is not a normal thing to do for a human. So it's not something that you need to do.

• 55:30Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Like, I think you'll be fine without it.

• 55:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  But if it's something that you want to overcome, then it's worth like exploring that. But for me, like I've always loved watching live TV, so I always wanted to sort of be in live TV because it looked fun. And then the first few times I did it, it wasn't fun because I was too scared and I thought, well, that's pointless. Because the ultimately, the first thing that I, when I watched TFI on Esos is like, I want to be there, that seems fun.

• 55:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  And then when you get there and you're not having fun, you go, well, there's no point. So now, the only reason to do it is to have fun. So if you're nervous, you have to channel that into fun, otherwise don't do it, is essentially how I'm approaching it.

• 56:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I think that's really handy for people to hear that, I don't know, have to stand up in front of a room of people and do a presentation at work or, you know, anything that feels out of the ordinary they've got to do. Make an awkward phone call, talk to people about something that they feel worried about. To try and channel a level of positivity into those nerves is always going to be helpful.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think being a comic helps with that as well because ultimately, everything's funny. So if you, if it's a complete disaster, that's sort of funny.

• 56:34Fearne Cotton?

  You've got an anecdote out of it.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Exactly. So like, I do try to approach everything as like, well, this is, you know, we'll all be dead in like seconds ultimately and none of it matters, so.

• 56:43Fearne Cotton?

  That's, that's my go-to, is in a hundred years, I won't be here, so.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  No, yeah.

• 56:46Fearne Cotton?

  Doesn't fucking matter.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter.

• 56:47Fearne Cotton?

  Doesn't matter.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter.

• 56:48Fearne Cotton?

  Before we wind things up, two questions. First one, we are making a Happy Place playlist with songs that make you feel excellent. What's going on there?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Hmm, oh. My go-to throughout my life has been All I Need by Air, which is.

• 57:07Fearne Cotton?

  Nice.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  A chill-out.

• 57:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Classic. And just immediately lowers the blood pressure and heart rate and just takes me to somewhere that's very calm. And it would be on any playlist ever in my life, basically. And it like sort of pops back up from time to time, so that one. And then maybe Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann because all of life's advice is in there, so.

• 57:32Fearne Cotton?

  It still holds up.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Really does, yeah.

• 57:34Fearne Cotton?

  You would think that maybe the advice might need to be updated, but no.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  No, no, I think, yeah, all of it is sort of bang on actually.

• 57:40Fearne Cotton?

  It's really good, isn't it?

• 57:41Speaker 01

  You would think that some of it would be accidentally racist or something, but no.

• 57:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, or just like obsolete, but no, we need all of it still.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:48Fearne Cotton?

  And where is your happy place?

• 57:50Speaker 01

  I realised that I'm very fortunate because in a universe as big as the universe that we're in and across all of sort of time and space, when my son wakes up in the middle of the night and gets into bed with me and my partner and we cuddle, is, is the best place in the universe. And I get to experience that most nights at the minute. And I was in it like a few weeks ago and I was like, oh, this is like, this is it, isn't it? There's something really, you feel it physically, like it's there, like a kind of like, ah,

• 58:28Speaker 01

  and just a complete contentment and amazement at the universe that this human exists and you're, you're responsible for them and all of the things that come with that. So for me, right now, it's about 3am.

• 58:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  When the Punisher gets in, unless he's in a wiggly phase, in which case.

• 58:50Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, the kicking.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  It's the worst place in the world.

• 58:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a thin veneer between the two.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's at a real good height for kicking me in the bollocks at the minute.

• 58:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, right in the nuts. Yeah, I know. And we're very much encouraged to phase that out, like, don't let them sleep in the bed.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Don't let them kick you in the bollocks.

• 59:06Fearne Cotton?

  But like my kids now, I mean, my son, he's a massive bloke, he's never going to get in bed with me. On holiday this year, my daughter, a couple of times, came from the kids' room into mine and I was like, I felt so honoured. And then when you wake up in the morning and their little sleepy face is right there.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my happy place.

• 59:24Fearne Cotton?

  I love that, that's a gorgeous.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  And then any pub in Birmingham.

• 59:26Fearne Cotton?

  Love it. And the Lyssit Arms.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  And the Lyssit Arms, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

• 59:31Fearne Cotton?

  Well, Joe, I'm so happy that we got to hang out today.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:35Fearne Cotton?

  I wanna, I.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  And so off to karaoke now?

• 59:38Fearne Cotton?

  We're not off to karaoke.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:40Fearne Cotton?

  Immediately. It might happen in our future.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, fine, let's not.

• 59:44Fearne Cotton?

  But we should definitely like go to an art gallery or something together.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 59:48Fearne Cotton?

  Or like do a painting day together.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 59:51Fearne Cotton?

  Shall we do it?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  I would be so happy to do that.

• 59:53Fearne Cotton?

  Me too. Okay, it's on.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, great. Thank you for having me.

• 59:58Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, I think I'm manifesting my dream day out with Joe, which is just to go to an art exhibition and wander around with him, looking at art. I can't think of a better way to spend my time, quite frankly, and we just need to have a painting day. Like, we're gonna put on the folk music, as you suggested earlier, and just do a day of painting. Oh my God, how delightful. I'm here for it. You can watch Joe on the Lyssit Arms on Channel 4 from the 4th of September. Right, have you been reading this month's Happy Place Book Club book, Family Friends? The most divine summer read of all time. Author Chloe Ashby is going to be joining me here in just a couple of days' time. So if you've been reading along with us, with the Happy Place Book Club community,

• 1:00:40Fearne Cotton?

  you are not going to want to miss that episode because we talk about the whole damn thing. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to Joe and you lovely lot. You are the bloody best.

• 1:01:11Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

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