The Business Case for Good Manners with etiquette coach William Hanson

Good manners aren’t just about being polite — they’re about making other people feel seen. William Hanson is one of the world’s leading etiquette coaches. He’s advised royalty, CEOs, and television personalities on how to communicate with clarity, confidence, and grace. But his mission goes far beyond fine dining or proper handshakes. In today’s fast-paced, informal world, William argues that etiquette isn’t outdated — it’s essential. Whether you’re trying to land a job, win over a client, or simply connect with others, good manners are your most underrated advantage. He sat down with me to share how etiquette builds trust, why it’s not about snobbery or perfection, and how anyone — regardless of background — can learn the unspoken codes that open doors. This… is a Bit of Optimism. Check out William’s new book Just Good Manners here And learn more about his work here.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  This episode is brought to you by True Classic. I'm so proud that True Classic is a sponsor because I really like their company and I really like their CEO. And I really love their clothes as well. I've been wearing their T-shirts long before they became a sponsor. Do check them out.

• 0:16Simon Sinek?

  What are some of the specific things that you have seen that a lot of people get wrong?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  When you are having a conversation at a networking event, cocktail party, whatever it is, a lot of people, sort of what you'll be doing a story about, a skiing accident, for example, that you've had. You were skiing 10 years ago, you had some accident. And most people seem to will listen to that and will be thinking, what story do I have about an accident I've had on holiday? Rather than, let me ask you a follow-up question. Let you have that moment. Whereas people are obsessed with trying to match or beat the story and it becomes competitive. Because we have become so insecure, I think generally people feel that they need, or they feel they need, again, to bond. Oh, to bond, I've got to say that I've gone through the same process as you. That's very tiring.

• 1:01Simon Sinek?

  It is said that manners maketh the man. And that was also said in the 14th century. So 600 years later, do our manners really say something about who we are? According to William Hanson, our manners absolutely say something about who we are. But not for the reasons most people might think. William is an etiquette coach from England and the executive director of The English Manner, an etiquette and protocol coaching company. And his latest book, Just Good Manners, is now available in the US. So he knows a thing or two about how to use our cutri and a lot more. Where most people think that good manners is about showing off

• 1:45Simon Sinek?

  or trying to look or sound upper class, in reality, good manners are about making other people feel like they matter, which is a very good reason why we should all practise good manners. This is a bit of optimism.

• 2:05Simon Sinek?

  We should talk about etiquette.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:09Simon Sinek?

  I am fascinated that, I don't know how to put this politely.

• 2:15Simon Sinek?

  I'm fascinated that you have a career.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. Well, my, my family is, is stunned I have a career.

• 2:25Simon Sinek?

  Because, not because there's no need for etiquette. It's because it's less, it seems, less of a thing in our modern day. Like, the Victorians talking about etiquette and commenting on someone's etiquette.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39Simon Sinek?

  And making sure that you have etiquette was a thing.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very big for them.

• 2:45Simon Sinek?

  And we are a more informal time, we're in a more informal time where, and I live in America where, and I, I was raised with a proper English upbringing, you know, where I got in trouble for, you know, elbows on the table and I, I learned to use a knife and a fork with, you know, fork in my left hand, cut with the right hand. And, and showing up in America and I see people stabbing their steak and cutting it, switching hands. And I was incensed, the Englishman in me was incensed.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  And have you started doing that?

• 3:12Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I eat properly. No, no, no, no.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  We can continue with this interview.

• 3:17Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no, I still eat properly. I do put my elbows on the table occasionally, but not to eat.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  No, I would say it's impossible to eat with your elbows on the table.

• 3:26Simon Sinek?

  Anyway, so how, how in this modern day and age, like, how did it begin? Like, how did you announce, how did you show up that's, I'm going to teach etiquette? And people were actually like, you know what? I, you, come here, I'm going to give you money for that.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Well, it was, yeah, it wasn't, I didn't wake up one day and go, well, this is what I'm going to do. I, I was, this will come as a shock to you, Simon, I was quite a precocious child. And my grandmother gave me a book of etiquette when I was 12 for Christmas. And I, to be honest, didn't sort of leap at the chance to read it, but she used to stay with us and would sort of keep saying, have I read any of it? So I thought, right, I will go and find it. I will open it up in the middle, read a bit, and then I can tell her I've read it. And actually, I read the whole thing quite quickly. It was very interesting, but it posed lots of questions. I wanted to know why we had to do certain things. And so I bought more books. More like the history, like? The history, like, how did we end up here, or what is the logic behind doing this?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  It was all very well to give me a rule, but I wanted to know, well, what's the justification? Right. For doing the rule. You can't have a rule for no apparent reason, otherwise it makes no sense. And so I bought more books, didn't really make a thing out of it. And then when I was at school, when I was 16, my, one of the teachers came up to me and said, oh, could you teach the younger years how to set a table? We need, we need them to learn for various reasons. Would you do it on Tuesday? And I said, well, does that mean I don't need to do rugby? And they said, yes. And I said, sign me up. And basically, my career, now 18 years into it, has just been one long excuse to not do any sport. And nobody's stopped me. I wanted at that time to be either Archbishop of Canterbury

• 5:08Speaker 01

  or a spy. Those were my, those were my options. You could do both. I could do both, maybe. That would be really good, actually. Exactly. That's a novel. But anyway, that, not particularly for any religious reasons, but just I liked the robes. And I thought that looked fun. And I thought, how many people want to be Archbishop of Canterbury as well? Two. Yeah, well, yes, two. The guy right before the Archbishop of Canterbury, and you. And me. Anyway, Lambeth Palace are thrilled that I'm not Archbishop of Canterbury or in, in running for it. So I went off to university, read English, and got some press coverage quite by accident in between school and university. And the company I now run, The English Manor, run by a lovely lady called Alexandra at the time, who used to

• 5:52Speaker 01

  be from, worked for the Royal Household, wrote to me and said, well, look, if you're going to do this, I've read, read about you doing this, if you're going to do it, come and do it for us, please. So. For the Royal Household? No, for, for The English Manor. She was ex-Royal Household. She set up this sort of modern day finishing school etiquette consultancy. So I thought, all right. And I, I read English at university, so I wasn't rushed off my feet. Which, for Americans, that means studied. Yes, I studied English. And thank you for interpreting.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  In this bi, bi-language podcast and yeah, and I was delighted that she sort of saw something in me.

• 6:28Simon Sinek?

  So who, who goes to English manner? Who pays to learn etiquette?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  We work with corporates, we work with individuals, we work with royal households elsewhere, all over the world.

• 6:39Simon Sinek?

  And, and when you say corporates, is it more like executives learning how to use, go to a dinner party and not offend anybody when you have 10 knives and forks?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  No, we, we have done that.

• 6:49Simon Sinek?

  Well, I'm very proud. I know how to do that. It's very easy. Just work from your outside in.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yes, that's it.

• 6:53Simon Sinek?

  Start on the outside and go in.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  I would say, I mean, with the corporate work, we, we do sometimes do C-suite level training with, with sort of people that need a bit of polish. We had someone who basically they wanted to make their CFO, but was terrible at entertaining and conversation. Was, was, could work, work themselves around a spreadsheet nicely, could do the deal.

• 7:16Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Just had really bad table manners and bad interpersonal skills. They don't anymore.

• 7:21Simon Sinek?

  So, so, so how did this person, what were considered bad table manners that were so?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Noise.

• 7:29Simon Sinek?

  Egregious that he was turning people off, that he was actually putting his career in jeopardy?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Noise.

• 7:35Simon Sinek?

  Meaning?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  We can hear it.

• 7:37Simon Sinek?

  The way he was eating?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yes. Yep. Mouth open.

• 7:40Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Food flying everywhere.

• 7:42Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Pouring like, you know, glass of water or wine, whatever they're drinking and just pouring for themselves rather than pouring for other people first. Putting themselves first. And that's really all manners are about. It's just putting other people first before you. It's very selfless. And it, I think is an excellent habit to get into.

• 8:00Simon Sinek?

  This is good because this is, I think, when we hear the word etiquette, you think prim and proper, you know, you know, little finger out when you're drinking tea.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Well, no, well, you do think that, but the little finger out supposedly, there's a little bit of historical evidence to show that that was a sign in Louis XIV's court to tell someone that you had syphilis. So it's got absolutely nothing to do with being posh necessarily. It was the posh people that were doing it.

• 8:24Simon Sinek?

  Because they all had syphilis.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Because they all had syphilis and it wasn't polite to sleep with someone without letting them know you had an STI. I believe we still have the same rule today. And so it's a sort of a silent code whilst they were drinking their tea at the end of a, um, end of a sort of a large dinner at Versailles. For example, they would flirt and if they stuck their finger out, it was me just politely, non-verbally letting you know. Well, I've got syphilis. And if you stuck your little finger out, great. Well, because you can't get it twice. And off we went.

• 8:51Simon Sinek?

  I have to say that if nothing else, this is the most valuable thing you've shared.

• 8:57Simon Sinek?

  Because from now on, anybody who thinks they're being posh and sticks their finger out, I'm going to ask them if they have syphilis.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yes. Get the, get the anti-back wipe sound and wipe them down.

• 9:06Simon Sinek?

  So, so, so you helped this guy. And it's, I have to, you have to use your skills of etiquette to tell somebody.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:15Simon Sinek?

  It's pretty awful sitting across a table from you.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:18Simon Sinek?

  Because I, I mean, I've sat across some people who, I'm thinking of somebody right now, and he's extremely successful. And I can't sit at a table with him because is, and how, so how do you even broach the subject? I guess it's been broached by them sending off, sending him off to the school.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, it's, and we have, regardless of who is coming through our doors, or we go to see at the English Manor. You have those that sort of have paid the invoice themselves, who want to be there.

• 9:46Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Easy. And then you've got those, you know, if we're going into a bank and we're.

• 9:50Simon Sinek?

  Who can't understand why they've been made.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Or it's a group of graduates and we're having to train them who, you know, there is a bit of reluctance for the first 10 to 15 minutes. Because they would rather be somewhere else. So, yes, it is, it is a delicate art. And it's not one that we practice when we're not working. I don't sit in front of my friends and tell them.

• 10:10Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  That's a bit noisy.

• 10:11Simon Sinek?

  But you do notice things, of course.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  The official, the official answer is, no, of course, when I'm not working, of course, I don't notice. I'm not working. The unofficial answer is, yes, I've noticed.

• 10:21Simon Sinek?

  Does the world offend you?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  The world doesn't offend me. The world annoys me.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  There's a lot to be annoyed about that's so basic and people, I just want the best for people, basically.

• 10:35Simon Sinek?

  So.

• 10:37Simon Sinek?

  I get offended. I'm, I'm, I think it's probably because, again, I had a pretty standard English upbringing, you know?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Simon Sinek?

  And I remember when I first moved to America and I'd go to like a coffee shop or something.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:50Simon Sinek?

  And the person standing in the, in the line in front of me would go to the barista and say, you know, espresso, you know, I'm just like, please.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Simon Sinek?

  And then they would be handed and they'd just walk away and I would say, thank you. And, and I, I, you know, I'm less pedantic about it, but I, it does register.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 11:08Simon Sinek?

  It goes in my head, like, simple pleases and thank yous. It's not, it's not, it's not pompous. And it's just, I think it's being nice to another person. I guess you're right. It's a selflessness, right?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Simon Sinek?

  It's acknowledging that somebody is doing something for you and that they have done something for you.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  And it's taken no extra effort to tag on a please or a thank you onto a sentence. It doesn't cost anything. It takes no extra time. It's, it's, it's, it's a bad habit that people have fallen into and probably because no one's pulled them up on it.

• 11:37Simon Sinek?

  So if we're polite, we'd say that the world has become more casual. If we're impolite, we can say the world has become ruder.

• 11:46Simon Sinek?

  So what, A, is that true? Or is it just an old person thing?

• 11:54Simon Sinek?

  Or, and B, if it is true, why, why is that happening?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  There, there is a, there is a passage from a, some monk in like the year forty five A B C that has been transcribed that my, a friend of a friend has on their walls that basically translates as

• 12:13Speaker 01

  the younger generations are getting ruder and ruder. So I think that is sort of always going to be around. And if they were thinking that, however many years ago, we're always going to think that. I actually have, I'm not Gen Z, I'm millennial, but I have great optimism in Gen Z. The Gen Z who come and up to me and say hello on the street are so lovely compared to the slightly more entitled millennials. Now, I don't know whether, when Gen Z get into the age that millennials are now, I don't know whether that will change or not. Could be a confidence or lack of confidence thing. But I think Gen Z are. More aware of their actions and the actions of others. And really, that is all that etiquette and manners are. It's just an awareness that you are not the centre of

• 12:58Speaker 01

  the universe and that there are lots of other people. And also not assuming that you are the most important person.

• 13:05Simon Sinek?

  And we also have to remember that these standards of etiquette, they change from culture to culture.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Totally. And they and they change within cultures as well.

• 13:11Simon Sinek?

  Because we're talking about English etiquette predominantly.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:14Simon Sinek?

  Which is different than American.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Well, it's more uptight.

• 13:17Simon Sinek?

  It is much more uptight generally.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  And what I write in my book or say on Instagram or in my lessons, I would hope that in 20 years' time, I'd hope at least half of it's completely irrelevant because etiquette has got to evolve and adapt and reflect the society that is around us. It would be ridiculous if I was still talking to you about the, I mean, I was just talking to you about the etiquette of Louis XIV, but only with a historical context. But if I was saying, well, in the court of Louis XIV, you had to wear a ruffled sleeve. Simon, why are you not in a ruffled sleeve today? It'd be ridiculous. And that's why I think etiquette gets a bad name, because sometimes people sort of hold on to these rules and and don't don't allow them to adapt.

• 14:00Simon Sinek?

  It's associated with your grandmother.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:03Simon Sinek?

  And fuddy duddy.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:04Simon Sinek?

  And when I, when I was a young person, I had to do this, you will do this, even though that was 60 years ago.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they may be right in some instances. I'm not saying they're always going to be wrong. But etiquette has to evolve.

• 14:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  It has to adapt.

• 14:16Simon Sinek?

  So, so, and I, and the same with language, right? Language changes and evolves. And the OED, the dictionary is a living, breathing animal.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Simon Sinek?

  Great book, by the way, called Word by Word, if you're into the how dictionaries are written. It's really a fun read. But and how language evolves. And there's a group of people who actually decide what goes in and out of dictionaries. But what are some of the things that you have seen adapt for the modern day that used to be unacceptable that are now acceptable, even in the past, call it decade?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  I would say we've probably softened in our, or changed in our approach to, well, well, there are two, two thoughts that come to mind. One, certainly in Britain, and I would imagine in America as well, we are eating so much more different cuisines than ever before. We're very lucky. British food, obviously the butt of many sort of eighties and nineties American sitcom jokes, but actually British food now, particularly in London, is probably the best in the world. You can get anything. Yeah, it's great. And it's, and it's a very good quality and it doesn't have to cost the earth either. Right. So we're eating so many more different types of cuisine. Now, you can't transpose our sort of quite stiff dining etiquette for Western slash British food onto ramen, for example. Right, you're gonna make a mess.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Because it's just not going to work. Right. And so we are having to change how we eat and what we eat and sort of have these different sort of toolkits to use and to apply depending on what we are, what we are eating. So certainly our food has, has improved and our table manners have, in some instances got worse, but also in others got better. But also the way we approach matters of gender with social etiquette, I would say we are predominantly now more business etiquette focused in terms of introductions. For example, if I had Granny and Annie, Granny is 80, Annie is 18, I would in a social setting give precedence to Granny because she's 80. So I would say Granny may introduce Annie, the most important person, name goes first.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  If I'm sitting here talking to you 20 years ago, I would also say we would look at gender. So a woman would be given precedence over a man. So I would say Mrs. Smith may introduce Mr. Jones, for example. In a business environment, someone's age, someone's gender completely irrelevant. And so we, we just don't look at it. We go on rank. So CEO may introduce intern. I would say socially, we're moving more towards that where we're looking at sort of position rather. We do look at age still, but position rather than gender. So age is becoming less of a factor for the social hierarchy?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I think if there is a dramatic age difference, Granny and Annie, eighteen, eighteen, then yes. But generally, if we're all sort of in our thirties, we might go alphabetically. Adam, introduce Sam.

• 17:03Simon Sinek?

  That's so interesting because what I'm thinking, I'm thinking like how I introduce people. And I think.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Well, at least you do, Simon, because so many people just think.

• 17:11Simon Sinek?

  Well, I have this, I don't know if it's a disease or I don't know what it is, but I sometimes forget the names of the people I'm with.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:19Simon Sinek?

  And I, I always tell my friends, and sometimes I forget names, I'll forget names a lot. I tell my friends when we go to social situations or even if it's work, I say, I will always introduce you to somebody. If I don't, please introduce yourself because it's, because I don't remember somebody's name, because I'm trying to avoid somebody saying to me, aren't you going to introduce us, Simon?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:41Simon Sinek?

  And then I'm screwed because I don't know the names.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:43Simon Sinek?

  So, and the worst is when there's like six people and I know, I remember five names and not one, I can't introduce anybody. So I, I sometimes make no introductions.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:53Simon Sinek?

  Out of fear of getting a name wrong.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:57Simon Sinek?

  Because that's worse, right?

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yes, and our name is so personal, it's the only sort of thing that really belongs to us massively. And so if someone gets it wrong, we can get, some people get quite peeved.

• 18:07Simon Sinek?

  I mean, yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, especially if we've said.

• 18:11Simon Sinek?

  But I'm just trying to think, like, when I do make introductions, assuming I remember all the names, I'm trying to think if there's a hierarchy in how I do it. Sometimes I just go in order, just like from left to right.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Lovely.

• 18:24Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Very fair.

• 18:26Simon Sinek?

  And if there's a, if there's, if I'm bringing somebody that I want to like, this person's amazing, you should all know this person, I'll start with them.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:34Simon Sinek?

  But I guess that's some sort of hierarchy.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. And you have, and maybe it's their guest of honor, it's that you're hosting a birthday party for them, or it's some book launch or whatever, then yes, there's, there's a logic to it. One of the, it wasn't, wasn't, I wasn't working for the company at the time, but one of the English manners, very first clients, Alexandra, when it was just her running the company, she went in to pitch for business. She'd had a bit of an in at a friend of a friend at a very well-known American bank, but it was the London office.

• 19:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  And she went in to pitch, she had to get training, and they had sort of rather patronizingly sort of listened to her, but sort of, yeah, well, it sounds lovely. Thanks very much. We'll keep your details on file type thing. And they had then gone over to Osaka in Japan to negotiate some deal for a client on first day of the.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  The negotiations, the business itself, Japanese walk in, Americans walk in, and the head of the American delegation from the London Bank goes to shake hands with the number two from Japan before the number one, and they all walked out and that was the end of negotiations.

• 19:38Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Cost them millions. Then she got a phone call, oh, um, yeah, we'll have that training now.

• 19:43Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  And it's, and it's always the way with etiquette training that we do. It's always, most of the corporates that we work with, something's happened.

• 19:51Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  They won't take a proactive approach.

• 19:53Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  And nip it in the bud. Some, some disaster.

• 19:57Simon Sinek?

  You're like therapy.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yes, has, has.

• 19:59Simon Sinek?

  You're like therapy, which is the relationship has to fall apart first.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:02Simon Sinek?

  Then we should go learn how to communicate with each other.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  It'll affect their bottom line and, and then, and then, but it's like, well, you know, the, I don't know what the training back in 2001 would have been when that was, but, or how much would it have cost, but it would have been absolutely nothing compared to losing that business.

• 20:16Simon Sinek?

  That's really interesting. What about, so I also know that the world, as the world changes, it changes the standards. So World War Two in the UK really affected the class structure.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:24Simon Sinek?

  It, it, it broke the class structure down quite a lot.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:27Simon Sinek?

  And we know even the way the Queen spoke before and after the war.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:31Simon Sinek?

  Profoundly changed.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:33Simon Sinek?

  It became more, I won't say egalitarian, but it did soften the divide between, between the classes.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:40Simon Sinek?

  Covid. Have you seen etiquette changes as a result of Covid? Because, you know, we were all insanely casual.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:47Simon Sinek?

  You know, we would show up on calls, unshaven, hair a mess, everybody in, you know, athleisure.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:54Simon Sinek?

  I went, I mean, I, and I was thinking to myself, this is the best. I'll never wear jeans again for the rest of my life. I like wearing sweatpants way too much.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Well, I'm pleased to say that Simon is sitting here in jeans.

• 21:03Simon Sinek?

  I am in jeans.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:04Simon Sinek?

  They're stretchy, though.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  They're stretchy, but that's fine.

• 21:07Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Um, I, yeah, I think we're, I think we've, Covid was, was interesting from an etiquette point of view, as you say. We, I think we reassessed who we, when we then were able to socialize with each other in real life, we were, certainly in Britain, you can tell me what it was like in America, we. Considered who we were greeting and how we were greeting them, because I think in pre-COVID, we had got quite, particularly in London, overly tactile with people that we didn't really know.

• 21:36Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  And we sort of default pulled them in for a hug.

• 21:38Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  And it was the first time we'd met them. Why, why the dickens are we hugging them?

• 21:42Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  If you're gonna hug them on the first time, what are you doing the second time you meet them? Doesn't leave anywhere to go. So I think when with the more consciousness of germs and our personal space and distancing, I think we're like, okay, now maybe a handshake or even not even a handshake, but maybe just, well, we've only just met, so let's build up some affection. And then maybe when we say goodbye or the second time we greet, we'll do a slightly more genuine.

• 22:07Simon Sinek?

  Okay, real etiquette question now then, okay? People will come up to me and I will shake their hand. And this is like in every context, social, business, everything, right? And I'll put my hand out to meet them, to shake their hand, and they will say, I'm a hugger.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Oh, hate it.

• 22:26Simon Sinek?

  Okay? And there's no choice. If you're a handshaker, you are now caught in a hug. And I don't know when it became, why, it's not rock, paper, scissors. It's not like hug beats handshake.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:38Simon Sinek?

  And if I say, well, I'm a handshaker, I'm rude. So look, in reality, I don't really care, you know? But I do find it funny.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:48Simon Sinek?

  That the hugger-

• 22:49Speaker 01

  People say that they can say that.

• 22:50Simon Sinek?

  Is like, well, I'm a hugger. We're like, well, then I guess we're hugging. There's no, there's no-

• 22:55Speaker 01

  The trouble is, I think people, it's those-

• 22:57Simon Sinek?

  I know it's warm, it's done with warmth.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Well, yes, yes, they think it's, they think it's warm, but the trouble is where we are, and I'm glad you, because it winds me up as well. And I did actually once say to someone, well, I'm not, when they said I'm a hugger. And I hate to say-

• 23:10Simon Sinek?

  That's very poor etiquette.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  They sort of, they laughed. I sort of said it with a smile and I got away with it. But the, the, those sort of people think, and it's the same as, for example, if I suddenly, we've only just met today, if I was calling you Si, for example. Now, I don't know whether you like being called Si.

• 23:25Simon Sinek?

  No, I'll, I'll correct you.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Or not, yeah, quite. But people think, oh, I can, what I'll do, in order to bond with someone, I'll just cut out some steps and we'll jump straight to the hug. I'll jump straight to calling us Will and Si, for example, rather than earning that affection or building up the rapport, I'll just jump straight in.

• 23:44Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And it, familiarity breeds contempt. It pushes apart, it doesn't, doesn't draw you together.

• 23:51Simon Sinek?

  Uh, I know a guy who's a germaphobe and he hugs everybody so he doesn't have to shake their hand. Well, I mean, look, I'm not, not a microbiologist, but I would say you'll probably. No, no, because you can, you can go past someone's head and not breathe in their face. You can hug and his, he doesn't want to, because germs are primarily transferred, not primarily, but are very often transferred by, by our hands. You know, touching door handles and things. So he doesn't, and it's too rude to, to do a fist bump anymore or an elbow bump. I mean, it's not rude, it's just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. It was, it was a time and a place. And so, yeah, he, he's a germaphobe, so he hugs everybody. Okay. So everybody thinks he's really warm, but really just doesn't want to shake your hand. Genius. Okay. Well, I'm, I, I still think he's perhaps gonna get some germs, so it's maybe reducing the number of germs.

• 24:35Simon Sinek?

  So let's, let's take this into practical land, right? Which is, I, I, I think that, so I, I've told this story before, but I'll tell you because I think you'll appreciate it. Yes. Of how I think about etiquette. Okay. Right? And some of the things that you're talking about in a professional context especially, in the early days of, of Disneyland. Yeah. The Imagineers who build Disneyland had built what they thought was the perfect animatronic bird. It looked like a bird, it moved like a bird, perfect bird. And so they couldn't wait to show Walt Disney. They bring him in, they do the demo, it flaps, it moves its head, and they're like, eh, eh? And Walt goes, nope, no one will believe it. And they're like, what are you talking about? It's absolutely perfect.

• 25:14Simon Sinek?

  And he said, it's not breathing. And they said, no one will notice. And he said, people can feel perfection. And he's right. People will look at him and be like, I don't know what it is, but there's something wrong with that bird. It's not real. Right? And I think etiquette is the same thing, which is, which is, they're very subtle sometimes. It's very, the pleases and thank yous, for example. It's very small, but for some reason, it will elevate the way people think about you, the way they regard you, even though they may not be able to say the reason why. And I think that, for me, is the reason to learn some of the things that you talk about, and especially in a professional context,

• 25:53Simon Sinek?

  is because if it's a job interview especially, or if you're meeting somebody very senior for the first time in a large corporation, you will stand out for these little things that they won't be able to put their fingers on. What are some of the specific things that you have seen that a lot of people get wrong, that are so easy to correct and get right, that will have this impact, that will, that will be the breath of the bird, that will make you stand out even though, you know, nobody could actually say the reasons why. Pleases and thank yous amongst them.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Pleas and thank yous taken, yeah, that's, that's a.

• 26:25Simon Sinek?

  That's an easy one.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Um, really, asking, in conversations, when you are having a conversation at a networking event, cocktail party, whatever it is, certainly, and it probably is the case in America still as well, but in Britain, a lot of people, sort of, you'll be doing a story about a skiing accident, for example, that you've had, you were on, you were skiing 10 years ago, you had some accident, and most people seem to, will listen to that and will be thinking, what story do I have about an accident I've had on holiday?

• 26:55Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Rather than, let me ask you a follow up question.

• 26:58Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Let you have that moment, whereas people are obsessed with trying to match or beat the story and it becomes competitive, because we have become so insecure, I think, generally, people feel that they need, or they feel they need, again, to bond, oh, to bond, I've got to say that I've gone through the same process as you. That's very tiring. Ask a follow up question. So focus on, also, I mean, I don't love talking about myself, I like finding out about other people. So ask about the other person, ask a follow up question, and it's, particularly if you've got a client, the client's not massively that fussed what you did at the weekend, but the client would love to talk about what they did at the weekend, so just ask them questions.

• 27:35Simon Sinek?

  You, I wish you were around many years ago, because you basically described why my dating failed for most of my twenties.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44Simon Sinek?

  And maybe thirties, is I did the opposite, which is, somebody told me about something they did, and I wanted to match it, to show, look, we're the same.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:54Simon Sinek?

  So the intention was still, I'm trying to create common experience, I'm trying to show you that, so it wasn't.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  It was a good intention.

• 28:00Simon Sinek?

  A good intention, I wasn't trying to, I wasn't competitive, I wasn't trying to one up. It wasn't like, well, you did that, I did this. It wasn't that at all, but it was, it was, hear about your experience, tell you about my similar experience.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:12Simon Sinek?

  And I've only learned now, many years later, that that's awful. And, and though well intentioned, it was completely wrong. So I think what you're saying is, Very valuable in a professional context, even more valuable in a dating context. And especially when you're a little socially awkward or insecure and we don't know. And I think this is such good advice, which is be the journalist, be curious.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:33Simon Sinek?

  Make and I think it goes back to what you said before, which is etiquette is a simple that being polite and demonstrating good etiquette is just remembering to put the other person first, that if they're telling you a story, let's make, let's put the spotlight on them and their story for a while. And since I've learned that, maybe a year ago, since I've learned that, here's what's happened. I'm now investigative and asking questions and asking follow ups to the point where they say, I've been talking about myself for far too long, tell me. And now they want to know about me rather than me trying to tell them about me.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, this is lovely. That's lovely.

• 29:10Simon Sinek?

  What happens when both people are trying to be polite? Stalemate.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  You look, you can talk about yourself. You absolutely can talk about yourself. It would be ridiculous to never share anything. And actually, you do want to share a bit because otherwise you come across as a little bit closed and a bit suspicious.

• 29:29Simon Sinek?

  Sus.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, why are they not saying anything about themselves? But as long as you have.

• 29:33Simon Sinek?

  Cause they're a spy and they're a contribution of cantor. That's why.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Exactly. But as long as you have sort of focused on them for 80% of the time, I think it's, it's okay.

• 29:47Simon Sinek?

  This episode is brought to you by True Classic. And this ad won't sound like regular ads because it's not. Instead, I sat down with Ryan and had an hour long conversation with him. And we pulled out some of the best clips so that their ad is real content. I hope you enjoy.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  We have a basically an unlimited budget for surprise and delight for people.

• 30:08Simon Sinek?

  Well, give me some examples.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  So a guy in New England, I found out he was a big Tom Brady guy. He had a terrible experience. I got on the phone with them, I worked it out. I went on Amazon and found a signed Tom Brady poster. It was easy, I could mail it to him. It meant so much to him.

• 30:22Simon Sinek?

  This is genius. A customer has a bad experience.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:25Simon Sinek?

  You get on the phone to personally apologize. In the course of that conversation, you learn he's a huge Tom Brady fan.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:31Simon Sinek?

  You don't just send him like what most companies will do. Like, hey, I'm really sorry you had a bad experience. Here's a bunch of our product.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:38Simon Sinek?

  You go and find what he actually likes and send him what he actually likes.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:44Simon Sinek?

  Nothing to do with your company or your product.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 30:46Simon Sinek?

  Just to say, we screwed up. I'm sorry, here's something I know you want.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, because like this is how you gotta show up for people. You gotta go way overboard. You know, even if they never buy us again, it's got an amazing ripple effect.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  My other sort of number one rule for people in relationships and saying that I had to tell my husband to do is that, you know, obviously you're spending your life with them, you probably have heard the anecdote a thousand times before.

• 31:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  When somebody goes to tell the anecdote at a party, well, I've got a fantastic anecdote about this, what the husband, wife, spouse, partner should not do is go, oh, this one again, out loud. They might be thinking that, absolutely.

• 31:31Simon Sinek?

  You've described my whole career, just repeating the same six stories.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we're all, you know, it would be, it would be rude for your friends, anyone you're in a relationship with to go, oh, this one again, because it all sets it up like you're flagging to everyone else that is about to hear it.

• 31:50Simon Sinek?

  That this is not new.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  It's not a good story, or it's not new, or and you're taking away.

• 31:54Simon Sinek?

  Because I'm very good at telling stories to sound like they're, I'm telling them for the first time.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  You've never told that Walt Disney bird story before.

• 31:58Simon Sinek?

  Thousands of times.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yes, no, I know.

• 32:00Simon Sinek?

  And, and I'm very good at telling the stories that make it sound like the first time, so if somebody ruins the trick, it's like revealing how, how the, the card trick is done. I know there's a trick behind the card trick.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:10Simon Sinek?

  But the, the joy is that I don't know the magic.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:14Simon Sinek?

  Let me think that it's a, it's a miraculous feat of, you know.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Or the other thing I think partners do, I mean, thankfully, my husband does not do this, but jump in with the punchline just before you get into it.

• 32:22Simon Sinek?

  They ruin it for you, yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  No, I'm, I'm, or I might have done a, I'm, I'm workshopping a new punchline, or I've finessed it.

• 32:28Simon Sinek?

  What are some other common mistakes that you see in, again, going practical? I, I think the, the, the, I won't call it competitive, but the, the story matching.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:38Simon Sinek?

  I think is a really, really good one, professionally and definitely personally. What are some other common ones that you see that, that we can easily fix?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Well, literally, I mean, well, this is not professional, although, I mean, I guess it has a professional context to it. The, happened on the, on the Elizabeth Line getting here today, the London Underground, speakerphone calls.

• 32:56Simon Sinek?

  Oh, God.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Pandemic everywhere you go, even on the New York subway, when I did, I was on it once earlier this year.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  It, it, people just seem to think that just because we have this technology and that we can make a speakerphone call.

• 33:08Simon Sinek?

  My pet peeve, I have many, one of them is people that keep ringers on in public places.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Simon Sinek?

  So like, like, you're sitting.

• 33:18Simon Sinek?

  On a plane.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 33:20Simon Sinek?

  Waiting to take off where you've just landed and the ringers are on. So you hear bloop bing, bloop bing, bloop bing. And like, just the little thing on the side, just flick.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  A phone should make no noise.

• 33:32Simon Sinek?

  A phone should make no noise unless you need it to make noise because you have a babysitter and they're calling and you gotta take the call.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:38Simon Sinek?

  I get it. But the, and I, I think it's an age thing. I've noticed slightly older are seem to be oblivious.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:45Simon Sinek?

  That their phones make noise.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Broadway, I was watching Death Comes For a few weeks ago and person sitting behind me, older woman, not old, but older woman than the, the lady I was with, her smart watch kept pinging.

• 33:59Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Because she had a text.

• 34:01Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  And I was sort of turning around, but she wasn't getting it and the seat, the distance was quite high between the seats. So in the interval, I turned around and said, oh, hello, I hope you're enjoying the show. Could I just ask, could you please silence your smart watch because it's making a noise every time you get a text?

• 34:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  And she genuinely, she looked completely as if I, she was like, oh, oh, right. Okay.

• 34:24Simon Sinek?

  Like didn't even realize.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  I said, well, that was not a thing. The, the people that you were with didn't go, mom or whoever it was, could you just like, stop that?

• 34:32Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  It's extraordinary behavior.

• 34:33Simon Sinek?

  So let's get into this because I think one of the reasons that we don't tell people, you know, we, we, we, we sit and seethe.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 34:41Simon Sinek?

  About behaviors that other people are doing, that whether it's chewing loudly or their phone pinging or whatever it is, what I think one of the reasons is we don't know how to politely interrupt these things without offending someone or creating a situation.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:57Simon Sinek?

  So how do we tell someone, can you silence your phone? Can you talk softer? You're on the phone in a restaurant. Can you maybe turn the ringer off in a restaurant? You know, like, how, how do, can you, how, how do we broach the subject? Because usually what we do is just lean over to the person next to us and talk about it. We hate that person.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's hard, it's hard to control the behavior of others. And I would say all we can probably do is control our own behavior.

• 35:23Simon Sinek?

  Right. But how do you, how do, how do we politely ask for somebody to be aware that they're creating a, an interruption and maybe ruining an experience for more people?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think a, a show, a concert, that sort of thing is, is maybe more permissible to say something than maybe you're sitting in a cafe.

• 35:41Simon Sinek?

  Cause like in, in airplanes, we see it go haywire, right? Somebody puts their seat back too far and I mean. You know, madness ensues because we don't know how to say terribly sorry. Could you just put your seat back up, please?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yes. Could you wait till the meal service is over before you put your?

• 35:55Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. So how do we politely broach some of these subjects?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I think as long as you are polite, if you, the danger is that you think you're, you let your frustration take hold and that you are a bit tart and rude with it.

• 36:05Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And I think actually, if you just say, please could I ask you to put your seat forward? I'm still eating my.

• 36:11Simon Sinek?

  Oh, see, if you did that to me, that would rub me the wrong way.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  But hopefully you wouldn't do that.

• 36:14Simon Sinek?

  No, I wouldn't do it. I put my seat back very slowly.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:17Simon Sinek?

  Is what I do.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  A little glance.

• 36:19Simon Sinek?

  I do very slow movements as not to kind of catch.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Good.

• 36:22Simon Sinek?

  But the, the, but if somebody just said to me, that's very English to say, could you please do that? I think the English probably respond to that better than the Americans.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  So what, but why would it annoy you?

• 36:35Simon Sinek?

  It would come across as.

• 36:39Simon Sinek?

  I need, I need a preamble. I need a, I know it's not your fault. I need, I know it's like, I'm sure you're not aware. It was like, I'm terribly sorry to, to, to interrupt. Just give me some sort of contrition. You know, awareness that this is an uncomfortable situation. You don't know how to broach this, but you're going to broach this because I think the, excuse me, can you put your seat up, please?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  No, but I wouldn't say it with that tone.

• 37:06Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. So say it again.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Oh, please may I ask you just to put your seat back until I've finished the meal service, please?

• 37:14Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I guess it's okay. Trying to think.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  And I say it with a lovely smile. And look, you might say no. I also think with cabin crew.

• 37:20Simon Sinek?

  Go to the restaurant, the, you're at a restaurant and the person sitting, sitting next to you either has their ringer going the whole time or, or they're talking on speakerphone.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yes.

• 37:31Simon Sinek?

  How do you do that one in a restaurant?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  I would probably look over at them several times.

• 37:37Simon Sinek?

  So you give a couple of.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:39Simon Sinek?

  Glances like, are you aware? So hopefully they'll get the hint, but they don't.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  But they don't.

• 37:44Simon Sinek?

  And you know, now you can't help, but that's the only thing you can focus on.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I did say to someone the other day.

• 37:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  This is someone I vaguely knew. And maybe I should start doing this with people in public, not to say that they would know or have seen any of my videos, but I did start something with, because I quite like being passive aggressive, it's a key cornerstone of British etiquette. But I started with, listen, who am I to lecture you on courtesy, however? And then I went in with it. And that, that, that worked.

• 38:15Simon Sinek?

  But you can get away with it because you have a terribly toughy accent.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you, how dare you?

• 38:21Simon Sinek?

  It's a compliment, isn't it?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Is it a toffee accent?

• 38:25Simon Sinek?

  It's very posh.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Okay. Is it, are we talking like Queen, where, where in Her Majesty?

• 38:30Simon Sinek?

  No, it's not, it's not Her Majesty level.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  No, okay, good.

• 38:32Simon Sinek?

  But it might be, you know, a member of court.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Member of court, wow, okay, yeah.

• 38:37Simon Sinek?

  It's good.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Okay, well, thank you.

• 38:38Simon Sinek?

  Don't you think? You know this. I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  No. To me, it's just, this is how I've always sounded.

• 38:44Simon Sinek?

  No, of course. But you are fully aware that amongst English accents.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Yes, this is not, this is not a, this is not a typical.

• 38:52Simon Sinek?

  No, this is, you're not, you're not, no.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  No, alas. Wouldn't life be nicer if it was? No, it would be terribly dull.

• 39:03Simon Sinek?

  But that's, that's an etiquette thing too, isn't it? Like accents have changed.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. And I think you can have whatever accent you want in life, as long as you can be understood. As long as you have clear speech. I don't care what accent you have. But if you're using too much slang, or you're using too many abbreviations, or Gen Z speak, for example, if people can't understand you, that's when it's an issue.

• 39:27Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  As long as you can be understood.

• 39:29Simon Sinek?

  We do a thing in our company where I won't allow acronyms unless they're standard acronyms. And by standard acronyms, I mean like ASAP, RSVP. Those are fine, because everybody knows what they are.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:41Simon Sinek?

  But when we start abbreviating the names of products and things, and the reason I, I, I, I won't allow them is because I don't want somebody to feel dumb. Because there might be one person in the room who doesn't know what we're talking about. And that's unfair.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  And it's bad communication.

• 39:57Simon Sinek?

  Just call it what it is.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:58Simon Sinek?

  Right now, again, or we start using them externally because they become so ingrained in our culture. And we start just referring to them willy nilly. And so, and it's all, and because I've sat in meetings, like I've sat in meetings with military people and they speak in acronyms. And I can only ask a couple of times, what do you mean by that one? Because it gets the point ridiculous. But I've been, I felt completely left out of conversations before.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  And being left out, not good manners.

• 40:22Simon Sinek?

  And being left out, not good manners.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it all boils down. Manners are just how we interact with other people. Etiquette is sort of how we, in terms of the mechanics of it, the suggested rules and guidelines, 90% of the time are correct. Sometimes they're not, but the ultimate goal is just to have good manners.

• 40:38Simon Sinek?

  I think it's good. I think working on our manners, but maybe that's, is it because I'm English? Is it because I'm English that I think manners?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  No, because I do think there are. There are lots of Americans who would also agree. I don't think it's a particular, I don't think the English.

• 40:52Simon Sinek?

  But manners is not a thing, like, like, like I would get in trouble for not saying please and thank you as a kid. You know, I would get in trouble for having my elbows on the table. And I think a lot of Americans think that's funny.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 41:07Simon Sinek?

  And so where, you know, how do we inspire parents to want to teach their kids? Good manners and good etiquette, not because it's about being, it's not about pomp and circumstance. It's not about being prim and proper, but as you said, it's, it's a mechanism. It's a, it's a system to offer some guidelines to make others feel included, seen, heard, and all the rest of it.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:33Simon Sinek?

  Maybe that's enough. Maybe that's all we have to say.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  I think that, yeah, you can lead a horse to water, you can't make it.

• 41:38Simon Sinek?

  But using your, your knife and fork properly doesn't do anything for anyone else at the table.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Uh, it keeps the food on your plate and going from plate to mouth without it flying off onto the table.

• 41:48Simon Sinek?

  Is that the history?

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Ish, I mean, this would be elbows in.

• 41:52Simon Sinek?

  Didn't the Tudors eat with their hands?

• 41:54Speaker 01

  The Tudors did, yeah, absolutely. The sort of fingers.

• 41:58Simon Sinek?

  The Tudors would be Henry VIII.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Henry VIII.

• 42:00Simon Sinek?

  Mary.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Elizabeth I.

• 42:01Simon Sinek?

  Elizabeth I. The last Tudor was Elizabeth I.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yes. But yeah, fingers going down the eating implements, elbows tucked in, cut, stab, bring up to mouth with fork. It's a nice, you also, there's a practicality, and I think this is where British and American dining slightly differs. British dining generally and European dining, we favor long, straight, edge tables. Nice sort of, think about the Downton Abbey dining room, it's that nice sort of rectangle that they've got. In fact, the day that we are speaking, we have the state visit of France to Britain. It's the first state visit they will be doing at Windsor Castle since 2014. I assume it's the first one the King has done at Windsor Castle as King.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  I assume it is going to be in St George's Hall, the dinner, on a really long table that seats about 160. I mean, it's really quite a knockout shot when they release that. This is typical, now he'll do round tables tonight, just to annoy me after saying this, but my point is.

• 43:01Simon Sinek?

  Because he's not a traditionalist.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  He's not a traditionalist, no, and that's, which is good, but he, sorry, we have these sort of straight edge tables, and you're jam-packed next to each other, so you have to keep your elbows in. Because if we were all doing this, Buckingham Palace, which is going through refurbishment work, but Buckingham Palace and the state ballroom, you have 18 centimeters of space between the center of your plate and the center of someone else's plate. You are like a sunbeam.

• 43:24Simon Sinek?

  18 centimeters?

• 43:25Speaker 01

  18 centimeters, 18 inches.

• 43:27Simon Sinek?

  I was gonna say.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  18 inches, yes, 18 centimeters would be.

• 43:30Simon Sinek?

  A half, a half of, you know, six inches, yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  18 inches, it's not a lot. Now, the cutlery and the crockery, it's all smaller because it's older, it's not sort of modern stuff, but still, you are one man.

• 43:39Simon Sinek?

  Just to give people a sense of what 18 inches is, between the center of one plate to the center of another plate, the standard coach seat is 17 inches, and that's plate to plate.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:47Simon Sinek?

  So I get it, so when you're cutting sort of American-style, stabbing the steak and.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, if we were all doing it, you'd be elbowing the princess royal.

• 43:54Simon Sinek?

  So the English way of cutting like this, I don't put my fingers down the.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Do you not?

• 43:59Simon Sinek?

  No, I hold them like this, I don't do fingers down.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  You must do.

• 44:04Simon Sinek?

  No, this, like this, not like this. I can't do that. It's uncomfortable and it's silly.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Really?

• 44:10Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, it's old fashioned.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:12Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. My grandmother did it.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Is there a knife and fork available? I feel I need to see this.

• 44:16Simon Sinek?

  I know, no, like this. I cut like this. I don't cut like this.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  But I don't understand where the cutlery is going.

• 44:24Simon Sinek?

  Fork, knife.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I see. Okay. Well, it's, look, if you can do it.

• 44:30Simon Sinek?

  No, and it looks fine and it looks like everybody else. Nobody puts their fingers on the top.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Yes, they do. We all do.

• 44:33Simon Sinek?

  Do you make sure the fork is face down?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 44:36Simon Sinek?

  Come on. I mean, I won't use my fork. I will use my fork as a spoon, which I know is not etiquette.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  No, it's not British etiquette.

• 44:41Simon Sinek?

  Fine, yes. But I mean, how else are you supposed to eat peas? I mean, I know you put steak, you put the meat and then you shove the peas on the top, but they always fall off.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  No, you eat peas by pushing the, pushing them. I mean, peas again are not, as I once said in an interview with no sense of irony, and I appreciate what I'm about to say is ridiculous. Peas are not a formal vegetable. So you are not going to eat peas at a state banquet. But you would spear the peas individually or in clusters onto the tines of your fork, using the back of your knife to push them on and then transfer them.

• 45:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, too much work.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  It's not too much work. It's easier to do that.

• 45:15Simon Sinek?

  Poke one pea at a time on each tine.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yes, you can. There is a video on my Instagram where I do exactly that.

• 45:22Simon Sinek?

  Peas, peas are the exception?

• 45:24Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 45:25Simon Sinek?

  But if you are... My grandmother was always a fork down person.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  I like your grandmother.

• 45:29Simon Sinek?

  And I'm a fork up person.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:32Simon Sinek?

  Not always, but...

• 45:34Speaker 01

  But if you are eating peas, if you're using a knife to push them onto the underside of your fork, that, I would say, is more challenging to get your little peas without them falling off into your mouth.

• 45:42Simon Sinek?

  How do we politely disagree with each other?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Like this.

• 45:47Simon Sinek?

  Maybe this is part of the evolution of manners, which is maybe, maybe.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Just don't order peas.

• 45:52Simon Sinek?

  It's like, it's like octopuses and octopi. The correct one is either.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Simon Sinek?

  They are both acceptable.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  They are both acceptable.

• 45:58Simon Sinek?

  So perhaps, just perhaps in this modern day and age.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  As long as those peas...

• 46:03Simon Sinek?

  Fork up or fork down are both acceptable.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Don't fall off your fork. However you want to put them in your mouth.

• 46:06Simon Sinek?

  Peas are difficult. Rice.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Very tricky.

• 46:09Simon Sinek?

  How do you do rice when it's not sticky rice?

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Well, obviously, rice, I mean, rice is not a food native to Britain traditionally. We've imported it. So there are cultures where it is more sort of part of the staple diet. You would use your hands or you use a bread or chopsticks. It's part of a sushi roll, for example, or something like that. So that's a lot easier. But in Britain, yes, if we were having a chicken tikka masala, for example, with rice, it would be, if you were doing it, you either don't use the knife and then you hold the fork upturned in your dominant hand. That is fine.

• 46:43Simon Sinek?

  Really?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  But if you're using it with a knife, then the time's faced down.

• 46:46Simon Sinek?

  So my understanding was if there's a knife that has to be used, you will always use your fork in the left hand. If it is not a knife meal, a meal that requires no knife, you can use your fork.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, risotto, pasta.

• 46:57Simon Sinek?

  Right, exactly. So that's a fork in right hand. But if you have a chicken tikka masala, you've got spit of chicken and you've got rice. How do you eat the rice? With your fork down.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Fork down, put the chicken onto the fork and you've got the sauce. And then you just push some rice onto the chicken and it sticks.

• 47:13Simon Sinek?

  I bet you've used a fork face up as a spoon with rice.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  No. I mean, I probably have once.

• 47:20Simon Sinek?

  In a moment of weakness?

• 47:21Speaker 01

  If I was having an Indian takeaway, for example, I would use both. Or I use my nan.

• 47:29Simon Sinek?

  Or you use your nan, not your grandmother, your bread.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, yes, exactly. Yeah. Not granny.

• 47:35Simon Sinek?

  What you're talking about is no different than

• 47:43Simon Sinek?

  dressing a little nicer to go on a first date. Dressing, being a little more polite when you show up for an interview.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:49Simon Sinek?

  You know, we all on a first interview say please and thank you and we wait to sit down. And like, we don't put our feet on the desk of a first interview. Now, once you're part of the company and you're friends with everybody and you sit in their office, you might put your feet up. Nobody will care. As you said, you earn, you earn these

• 48:06Simon Sinek?

  these informalities.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:08Simon Sinek?

  So if everybody acknowledges that it's okay to be a little more polite, a little more formal for a first interview, why would we not agree that some of these etiquette things fall in line the same way?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  I think it's an excellent point.

• 48:23Simon Sinek?

  I could teach etiquette.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  You could. Would you want a job?

• 48:26Simon Sinek?

  I would love to teach etiquette. When we encounter someone rude or we're disagreeing with them, how do we use our manners to signal our discomfort or? You know, find a way to move on.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  We've reached, we've reached a stage in life when we meet or interact with people who have different opinions from us, where we can't leave that conversation until they have come around to our way of thinking.

• 48:53Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  And I would say that's because we're probably so insecure in our own opinions and, and our own point of view, that we thus have to sort of make sure that that other person is, is on our way of thinking. And life would be so dull if everyone had the same opinions and had the same, was, was wired the same way. I know, as long as they don't make speakerphone calls in public, then, then, other than that, that's, that's the exception.

• 49:17Simon Sinek?

  Playing the harp on a speakerphone.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Precisely, yes.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  But actually, just, you don't need, someone can say something that, okay, if it's, if it's an ist or an ism, you know, it's bigoted, it's racist, et cetera, sexist, fine, I do get it, you can call them out on it. But if they just say something, it's like, okay, well, I clearly don't, don't think, no way do I agree with you. Either you can ask them a quite, again, asking them a follow-up question, sort of go into it in more detail.

• 49:48Simon Sinek?

  Be curious.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Be curious as to how they are thinking that, or you just go, well, how interesting, and ask them another question.

• 49:53Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  You don't have to comment on everything, you don't have to have a reaction to everyone else's reactions.

• 49:59Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  You also can not know. People ask me my opinions on all sorts of things, all the time, and my honest answer is, I don't know. It's not, it's not my area. It's, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know.

• 50:11Simon Sinek?

  I find, I find, to, to add levity to a situation, what I mean is, instead of taking something super seriously, like scowling and like, okay, let, let, let the fight begin.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:21Simon Sinek?

  Rather, I try and have a sense of humor about things.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yes, find the funny.

• 50:24Simon Sinek?

  Like, I'm like, I would, I would say, well, I'm completely different, and I would, and I, if anything, mock myself.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:29Simon Sinek?

  You know, but, and again, earning familiarity. I, I think this, I've made this mistake many times as well, where I've, you know, especially in a, in a social situation, where I've, I'm, I, because I like somebody, I project familiarity. And so I try, I act too familiar too soon, because I feel comfortable and I want to create the comfort. But do you, I think the idea that you, we earn familiarity, and it's a dance, and it might go quicker sometimes and slower other times.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 50:56Simon Sinek?

  Depending on the people and depending on the chemistry. But I think this idea that etiquette is actually much simpler than we, than, than, than people make it out to be. It's not fuddy-duddy. It can be, but for the most part, as you said, it's making other people feel. Like they're the center of attention, that you're considering the existence of other people in the world and and that you're you're you earn familiarity and you just sort of go through the motions until you until you can relax them. And then, once you're familiar, a lot of the etiquette fall can fall away.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 51:25Simon Sinek?

  Because we are not Victorians.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yes, you can dial it up, dial it down, depending on the context. And etiquette is not meant to be a restrictive straitjacket where we're trying to repress people and control people. It's as the analogy I give is like driving a car. Do you drive?

• 51:40Simon Sinek?

  I do.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can you remember the first time you got in a car to learn?

• 51:43Simon Sinek?

  I do.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  We probably weren't brilliant at it compared to how good you are now, maybe.

• 51:48Simon Sinek?

  So good now.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Okay, we were all, you know, we were all so focused on keeping that car on the road, not crashing into anyone.

• 51:54Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Not stalling, just keeping it going in a straight line and not too fast and not too too slowly. And then, once we actually learned to drive and got a bit of confidence, now, when we get in the car, you know, we change the radio, we're checking our hair in the mirror, we're chatting to the person next to us. And the driving sort of happens naturally.

• 52:12Simon Sinek?

  And it's still safe.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's still safe.

• 52:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  That is what etiquette is meant to be. The more you do it and the more you practice it, it's just meant to be a muscle memory.

• 52:22Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  And it just happens. And it just happens. And you just interact with with the other people.

• 52:28Simon Sinek?

  Volvo did a study many years ago.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:30Simon Sinek?

  That drivers who are hyper attentive, in other words, meaning like

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:33Simon Sinek?

  hands on the wheel, fixed out the window, never doing anything, versus the driver who's like, you know, few seconds on the out the out the windscreen, change the radio, few seconds out the windscreen, change the window, few seconds out the windscreen, talk to your friend, few seconds out the windscreen, change the station again, that they're actually better drivers, that there are fewer accidents, because with all of your eyes moving all over the place, you're actually

• 52:55Speaker 01

  You can see everything.

• 52:55Simon Sinek?

  You actually see everything, take the world in.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:57Simon Sinek?

  And so there's something to be said for learning and practicing hyper attentively. And when you get more casual, you actually become, dare I say, more polite.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:06Simon Sinek?

  Because you are naturally.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Making somebody else feel seen or heard. Yes, precisely. And we don't, we don't, we don't want it to be stiff. Yeah. And robust. And I think that's where I think you get a bad rap, which is people think that you're stiff. The word etiquette is so preloaded with, which is why. It's got too many Ts in it, which is very formal. It's got too many Ts. It sounds harsh. It's an old French word. And it's why it appears nowhere on my, on the, on the book. The book's called Just Good Manners, not Just Good Etiquette. Yeah. Because people just have so many opinions on it. I'm very much, when, when the publisher said, no, let's not put etiquette on the book. I was almost slightly offended. How rude, yeah. Yes. I was like, it's etiquette. Everyone knows what etiquette is. Just lean into it.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Like, I'm fine with it. I don't have a hangout with it. But I, I do understand that manners are softer. No, they were right. They are right. I have, I have told them that. But manners are a softer, more accessible word.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  William, thank you so much. It's been lovely. This is lovely. Yeah. Even if you do hold your knife and fork slightly weirdly. William, thanks for coming on. Such a joy.

• 54:13Simon Sinek?

  A bit of optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsonnick.com. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.