Can We Build an “Us” Without a “Them”? with John Green

Is it possible to build a community without a 'them'? Author, YouTuber, and podcaster John Green joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant for a wide-ranging conversation on belonging, friendship, and the systems that shape our lives. Together, they explore why sports can create such powerful communities, whether it’s possible to build an “us” without needing a “them,” and why shared projects can help relationships last for decades. John reflects on the challenges of young adulthood, what he learned from working as a hospital chaplain, and why supporting someone in pain sometimes means resisting the urge to fix it. The conversation also moves through why frictionless access, not just awareness, is essential to helping people get the care they need, the role coaches can play in athletes’ well-being, and John’s upcoming novel Hollywood, Ending. Hollywood, Ending - John Green, September, 2026, hollywoodendingbook.com CrashCourse - Hank Green & John Green, YouTube Demonic males: Apes and the origins of human violence - Wrangham & Peterson, 1996, Houghton Mifflin. The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex - Charles Darwin, 1871/1999, Project Gutenberg Not Like Me = Bad: Infants Prefer Those Who Harm Dissimilar Others - J. Kiley Hamlin, 2013, Psychological Science The Social Self: On Being the Same and Different at the Same Time - Marilynn B. Brewer, 1991, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin The Away End - Episode 1: John Green & Daniel Alarcon Dissect the 2026 World Cup Draw - The Away End, 2026, YouTube Roger Bennett – Men in Blazers Media Network Developmental Sequence in Small Groups - Bruce W. Tuckman, 1965, Psychological Bulletin The Places That Scare You: A Guide to Fearlessness in Difficult Times - Pema Chodron, 2002, Shambhala The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability - Brené Brown, 2026, The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant "The Fault in Our Stars" Author John Green on Reaching Young Adults and Dealing With Mental Illness - CBS News, 2020, 60 Minutes (CBS News) The Social Determinants of Mental Health and Disorder: Evidence, Prevention and Recommendations - James B. Kirkbride, 2024, World Psychiatry Single-Session Interventions for Mental Health Problems and Service Engagement: Umbrella Review of Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses - Jessica Schleider et al., 2025, Annual Review of Clinical PsychologyAdministrative Burdens in the Social Safety Net - Herd and Moynihan, 2024, Journal of Economic Perspectives Perceived Barriers and Facilitators to Mental Health Help-Seeking in Young People: A Systematic Review - Gulliver, Griffiths & Christensen, 2010, BMC Psychiatry The Inverse Care Law - Julian Tudor Hart, 1971, The Lancet Rebooting Psychotherapy Research and Practice to Reduce the Burden of Mental Illness - Alan E. Kazdin & Stacey L. Blase, 2011, Perspectives on Psychological ScienceAre Mental Health Awareness Efforts Contributing to the Rise in Reported Mental Health Problems? A Call to Test the Prevalence Inflation Hypothesis - Lucy Foulkes & Jack L. Andrews, 2023, New Ideas in Psychology How Coaches Can Be a Source of Mental Health Support for Student-Athletes - Madeline Will, 2024, Education Week Meet the Genius Behind America’s Best Roadside Attraction - Show and Tell, Atlas Obscura, YouTube Kate Bowler - Kate Bowler, katebowler.com How the Intention to Share Can Undermine Enjoyment: Photo-Taking Goals and Evaluation of Experiences - Alixandra Barasch, 2018, Journal of Consumer Research Optimal Distinctiveness Theory: A Framework for Social Identity, Social Cognition, and Intergroup Relations - Geoffrey J. Leonardelli, 2010, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Your vehicle doesn't just get you from here to there. It's a bridge to the people and places that matter most. It's how you show up for your family, your community, and everyone else that depends on you. That's why for 125 years, Firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind: to deliver products that are as reliable as you are. Firestone, always dependable, since 1900.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  New and exclusive holiday decor just launched online at The Home Depot. Check out the viral Grand Duchess collection with smart holiday lights you can control from your phone. Easily customize the twinkle across trees, wreaths, and garlands to match your holiday vibe. Create stunning light effects, then switch it up with the tap of your fingers. Even the man in red will be impressed. Shop the holiday decor you want, online only, at homedepot.com.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or Corolla Sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops, while Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at Trade-In. Get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:30Brené Brown?

  Welcome to The Curiosity Shop.

• 1:31Adam Grant?

  A show from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

• 1:40Brené Brown?

  Hey there, Adam Grant.

• 1:41Adam Grant?

  Hey, Brené Brown.

• 1:42Brené Brown?

  I am so in for today. I am locked in and ready.

• 1:47Adam Grant?

  Me too. I am so excited to introduce you to my friend, John Green. He's one of the most generous and generative people on the planet. I think our audience might know him as an award-winning author of The Fault in Our Stars, as well as a new novel this fall, Hollywood Ending. We'll get to that. An incredible YouTuber, Crash Course, as well as Vlogbrothers with his brother Hank. And a prolific podcaster, most recently throughout the World Cup, co-hosted The Away End, a show about soccer, football, whatever you call it, and of course, life. Brene, meet John Green.

• 2:20Speaker 04

  Hi, Brene.

• 2:21Brené Brown?

  What a pleasure. I am such a fan.

• 2:24Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm such a fan of yours, so it's really nice to meet you. And I'm only a little bit intimidated.

• 2:30Brené Brown?

  That's good, because I'm a lot intimidated, so that's perfect. I had 1,000 questions, and Adam was like, rein it in. I want to start with this question. How did you fall in love with football as an American? I mean, Liverpool makes total sense as a fellow Red.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:46Brené Brown?

  But how'd you fall in love?

• 2:48Speaker 04

  Well, I played for my middle school soccer team. I have no ability to play football whatsoever. I've never had any talent, but I had a lot of hustle. The only game I ever started, at halftime, the coach pulled me, and he said to the rest of the team, you know why I started Green? At least he tries. And I realized that I was a motivational tool rather than a actual footballer.

• 3:12Brené Brown?

  You're the glue guy. You were the glue guy.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  I was the glue guy. I was a locker room guy.

• 3:17Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 04

  And on my middle school soccer team, there was this kid from England named James. And James would tell us about how there was a football culture in England where tens of thousands of people would watch the games together, arm in arm, and sing songs together. And he told us that the best soccer team in the whole world was Liverpool Football Club. And we believed him, and here we are.

• 3:41Brené Brown?

  Smart kid.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  Smart kid.

• 3:43Adam Grant?

  Yeah. This is the missing piece, I guess, in my life, because I played soccer for 10 years growing up, but I did not have a James. And so I didn't realize it was a sport we could follow.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, back then, you know, I was just talking with a friend of mine from high school about how we used to get these VHS tapes of like, old Champions League games from, you know, 10 years earlier in the 1990s. And we would watch them in our boarding school TV room. And that was the only way we could keep up with soccer. There was no, like, you know, obviously no TV deals back then.

• 4:15Brené Brown?

  You were on delay.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  We were very much on delay.

• 4:19Adam Grant?

  Tape delay.

• 4:20Brené Brown?

  Serious tape delay. This is when you needed the poly market. This is when you needed to be like, here's how I think this is going to go in the first half. Okay, how many games did you attend during the World Cup?

• 4:34Speaker 04

  I only attended one. I saw the US play Australia with my son. And that was very special for me, because when I was 16, my dad took me to the World Cup in 1994, and we got to see the Netherlands play Morocco. It was, it was one of the biggest thrills of my life. And then to take my son, when he was 16, to see the US play was just really, really, it was just an extraordinary feeling. We won the game, but it was almost an afterthought to me, because the main thing was walking to the stadium with tens of thousands of fans. Football is so different in the United States than it was in 1994. The vibe is so different. The vibe around the US national team is so different, both men's and women's national teams.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  And it just felt amazing to be in that community, because that's what football's ultimately about, or any sport, right? It's about community. It's not about what happens on the field. It's not about getting a ball over a line. It's about the relationships that you build through, you know, orienting your love in the same direction as lots of other people.

• 5:37Adam Grant?

  I love that phrase, orienting your love in the same direction as lots of other people. I think this speaks to something that you said, John, that of all the unimportant things, football is the most important. Why?

• 5:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, to be clear, I stole that from Pope John Paul II. I didn't come up with that one.

• 5:58Brené Brown?

  I thought I recognized that followed by peace be with you.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  And also with you.

• 6:05Brené Brown?

  Thank you.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, I stole that. But it is true, I think, you know, of all the unimportant things, it's the most important because of the way we choose to care about it collectively, right? Like, almost nothing is going to be watched or cared about by most people on earth. But I can talk to friends from Sierra Leone to Australia about the World Cup, and they're all watching, they're all engaged, they're all following along. And to me, that sense of truly the world attending to one thing at the same time is just so magical. Like, I know we can only have it every four years, but I wish we could have it more often, that sense that we're all together in something.

• 6:50Brené Brown?

  This is like my theory about why it would be good if we had an alien invasion.

• 6:54Speaker 04

  Totally, Brene, because we would all immediately unify.

• 6:59Brené Brown?

  Yes, I've been, I've been thinking about that since I was little. Like, it's a boundary object thing, Adam. It's like, if we just introduce something to the triad, it would really help my anxiety, I think, to focus togetherness against a common enemy.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  I do wonder, and this is something I think about with football a lot, and also the rest of my life, is it possible to create a really inclusive us without creating a them, without the alien invaders?

• 7:24Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 7:25Speaker 04

  Is it possible to build a community that doesn't need to define itself in opposition to another community? And often in soccer, it's not, right? Like, Liverpool fans hate Manchester United, Manchester United fans hate Liverpool, and like, and that's part of how we define ourselves as a community. But I'm also really interested in us's that don't require a them.

• 7:44Brené Brown?

  I mean, my heart says yes, history would say no, but my heart.

• 7:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:47Brené Brown?

  My heart definitely says yes. I just wonder, Adam, it's interesting, I'd love to throw this to you for an answer. I wonder if, this is going to be so random, but I, because you're John Green, I can do this. I think you can ping with me. It reminds me of the chimpanzee wars that we've been talking about, Adam, that like, is there something neurobiologically hardwired in us that we define us by them? Like, is this just so deeply ingrained in what it means to be a social species? I don't know.

• 8:24Adam Grant?

  I, gosh, I really hope the answer is no, but I think your instinct is right, that the answer points toward yes. I mean, Darwin wrote about this. He wrote that tribes of altruistic people would actually outlast tribes of selfish people, because they would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the group, and then the group would survive. But that was a tribe, right? That was a group of people who shared your interests and who were defending themselves against an outgroup. And I don't know where this goes with chimps, but I've been reading some research on infants, which shows that before they can even talk, they will discriminate against outgroup puppets that don't like the same food as they do.

• 9:06Adam Grant?

  And so they're, they're already starting to perceive group boundaries of, if you like Goldfish crackers, we're on the Goldfish team, and we do not like the broccoli eaters. And so that, that seems to be very visceral and very early learned. I don't think that means we can't overcome it, though. And John, I would love to hear you talk about, how do we build a we or us that doesn't require a them?

• 9:27Brené Brown?

  Yeah, me too.

• 9:28Speaker 04

  Well, I do think it's possible, and I, but I think we do have to go in knowing that we're inclined toward creating outgroups, right? Like, we have to go into anything knowing that. I remember when we first started making YouTube videos back in 2007, we defined ourselves initially in opposition to popular people. Like, we were nerds, and the popular people were the other people. And then some people were like, actually, I have a lot of friends in school, and I want to be one of you. Is that possible? And I was like, oh, right, we're like, totally excluding people who are socially well-adjusted. That's not fair of us at all. Like, they're, they're people too. I have observed that it is possible.

• 10:13Speaker 04

  It is possible to create communities that are productive and do good work together, that don't define themselves in opposition to other communities. But I do think that it's an inclination we have and that we need to be conscious of.

• 10:27Brené Brown?

  You know what I would put forward into this that makes me a little bit hopeful?

• 10:33Brené Brown?

  I don't think it's our hardwiring to hate that drives this propensity. I think it's our yearning to belong. And those are two different things, right? I don't think that we're looking for an outgroup on which to project our misery, our despair, anger, our rage. I think it is belonging means so much to us that we try to secure it by the creation of those who don't belong. Because really, in my work, I think what I found is love and belonging are irreducible needs of all people. And I would add connection. And in absence of those things, there's always suffering.

• 11:17Brené Brown?

  So I think we actually protect against our own suffering by creating outgroups is to enhance our own sense of belonging, not because we love the sense of pushing others out. Does that make sense at all?

• 11:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, it really does.

• 11:34Adam Grant?

  Yes, and I have to build on it. It reminds me of Marilyn Brewer's research on how most prejudice is not driven by outgroup hate, but rather by in-group love. We end up favoring our own kind and then kind of leaving out or excluding people who don't belong. And John, it sounds like that's a version of what you ended up doing when your nerds left the, maybe they're socially skilled and, I don't know, it sounds like you might have left jocks behind, too.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, which was really unfortunate. I think we still underrepresent on the jock front.

• 12:05Adam Grant?

  That's why you did a football podcast.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, there are some pretty hardcore nerd fighter jocks, but they tend to look at sports in a very nerdy way. And so do I. I mean, I see sports as like a community building exercise more than an athletic one.

• 12:21Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I mean, same. It's, I'm totally into it. If it involves a pitch, an oval, a field, or a ball, or a pool, I'm into it. But I'm just there for the collective effervescence. I mean, I do like the athleticism and the team dynamics, but I think that's why Liverpool, I've been a fan for 15 years. I just think it's the story, the tragedy, the overcoming. I just think it's huge. I'm curious, is the John that started this intense podcasting during the World Cup this year, is the John that started it the same John that wrapped it at the end? Is there anything in you that shifted or changed?

• 13:05Speaker 04

  I think a lot shifted in me. I mean, I've always kind of dated my life by the World Cup, right? Like, starting in 1994, when I went with my dad, I think about where I was in 98, where I was in 2002, like how I was doing in my life. And this World Cup will be the one that I enjoyed with my friends from high school for the first time since 1994. Because the person I hosted the Away End with, Daniel Alarcon, is a Peruvian novelist, but also my friend from high school. And it was produced by our friend Sean, who was a groomsman in my wedding, and I've known since I was 14 years old. And that depth of connection, one of the great joys of adulthood, and I remember being

• 13:48Speaker 04

  like young, like being in my early twenties and thinking, this adulthood business is just terrible, and it's going to be a nightmare the whole time. But one of the great joys of being an adult is you can't possibly know when you're 20, what it's like to have a friend for 35 years.

• 14:04Brené Brown?

  No.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  And it's so wonderful. It's so, so that's what I'll remember, is the depth of connection that you feel to someone you've known since you were 14.

• 14:15Brené Brown?

  I feel like I could almost start crying. And this is what your work does to me. This is what your fiction does to me, and this is what your nonfiction does to me. I have not thought in my whole life, I might cry until this second, why, I was doing a podcast with Roger Bennett on the, on the Blazers podcast on the World Cup. And he said, I know you're a big SEC football fan, which one is better? And I said, I just can't rank them, I just can't do it. And now I understand why, because I have a friend, Eleanor, who was my first best friend in life. We met when we were four, in kindergarten, Holy Name of Jesus, New Orleans. And she is a big Ole Miss person, and I'm a big UT person.

• 14:56Brené Brown?

  And I remember a moment earlier this spring when I was holding her first grandbaby. And we're still friends five decades later.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 15:06Brené Brown?

  And I don't know that SEC football means anything to me beyond that.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 15:12Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 15:13Speaker 04

  Totally. That's exactly right, that like, it's a vector through which you experience friendship. It's a means to connection, a means to love, a means to community. And those friendships are just, adulthood in general is so underrated.

• 15:30Brené Brown?

  Agreed.

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Like, those friendships are just magic, you know? And you can't know the pleasure of having, like, I'm wearing shoes that have fit for 15 years. They fit so good. And you can't know that when you're 15 years old.

• 15:45Brené Brown?

  And you can't describe it, there's no poetry that is appropriate for describing it.

• 15:51Adam Grant?

  Well, I have a similar, I guess, a question that's parallel to the one earlier about, can we have an us without a them? I want to know, can we have those kinds of friendships without the sports? Because I will say, I've had a similar experience to both of you. I've, I think I've reconnected on a deeper level with one of my childhood best friends by the resurgence of the Detroit Lions than almost anything else we've done together. And, you know, I haven't followed the Lions since I gave up on them after Barry Sanders retired, but I'm back and I'm all in. And it gives us an excuse to text and talk every week. But I'm always wondering, does it have to be sports? You know, we talk about movies and shows and books, too. But something that sports does, I think, Brene, you described it as collective effervescence.

• 16:35Adam Grant?

  And I think it's really hard to replicate that in other domains, but I think we need more ways to replicate that. And I would love to hear both of you talk about that.

• 16:43Brené Brown?

  I'm following John Green on this one, baby. And no chance I'm going first.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  All right, great. I'll go first then. I absolutely think it's possible. I think that a lot of friendships and relationships in general need shared projects. Like, my mom and I share a garden. My mom lives next door to me, and yet we don't see each other that often, except that we see each other all the time in the garden because we work on the garden together. My brother and I work together on online video and have for 20 years, and that's kept us close. I don't think it needs to be sports, but I think it needs to be a shared project. And I also think, like, sports is ultimately sort of a soap opera, and so it can also be Love Island, right? Like, it can also be American Idol. It can be all kinds of things. But sports is really good at it, for whatever reason. But I don't think it's unique.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  I think the important thing is finding some kind of shared project together.

• 17:35Adam Grant?

  One thing that's unique about sports is that you don't have to like collaborating with the other person to treat it as a shared project, right?

• 17:42Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 17:43Adam Grant?

  You start to garden, and all of a sudden, you realize, I like this person, but I do not like working with them. And the same happens when you take on all kinds of creative projects, right? Sports, you can each watch in your own way and then come together without stepping on each other's toes.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 17:59Brené Brown?

  You know what I think is really interesting is, I have a 20-year-old son, and the sheer joy, there's, and I don't use, I use that word, it's not happiness, it's joy. As we hit August, and they start talking about their fantasy leagues, and they start coming up with their punishment, you know, 24-hour Waffle House, a pancake every five minutes. But that's a project. Like, they're going to collectively abandon the person who wins who auto-drafted. And I don't think it has to be sports, but I do think it has to be something, I'm going to go really far out here into kind of management work, but I do think there has to be something

• 18:44Brené Brown?

  that gives you the opportunity to kind of go through the form, storm, norm. There's got to be something that has challenge and growth. And this is where the collaboration stuff gets hard, I agree, because like, that gets hard. But I do think about, I don't think it has to be explicit. So for an example, with Eleanor, who's my longest lifetime friend, again, 50 years, our project is the pain and agony and absolute sheer enjoyment of adult children.

• 19:24Brené Brown?

  And how we work through that together. And, you know, do you intervene when you can play how the story is going to end? Or do you sit back and just let it go? P.S. The answer is yeah, I got to sit back and let it go. It sucks for sure. But that's our project.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  I don't look forward to that at all. That sounds really hard.

• 19:46Brené Brown?

  Watching kids adulting in this culture today, you have to be mindful, actually, sometimes of despair, which is a really hard emotion for me. Because when I get into it, I have a hard time pulling out. But I think watching adult kids today grapple with the world is a project that I'm grateful I have a lifelong friend.

• 20:06Brené Brown?

  Does that make sense?

• 20:07Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because it's hard not to feel despair at 48 when you look at the amount of suffering and injustice in the world. And if I were half my age, it would be almost impossible. And so there's that. But there's also the challenges of being a young adult. I remember I had this great Polish doctor in Chicago, and one time she left the room when I was like 24, and she left my chart open. And of course, I looked at my chart, and the first thing I saw was patient is a low-functioning young adult.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  And I was a low-functioning young adult. And I wasn't offended or anything. I was like, yeah, she knows.

• 20:55Speaker 04

  And it's really, really hard. It's really hard to function as a young adult, you know, it's it because you don't have those secure relationships. You don't have the shoes that have fit for 15 years. You don't have the friend for 50 years. And so it's really, really hard. And how much harder in a world where the injustice and suffering are so front and center for us.

• 21:19Brené Brown?

  I think that's true. And I think one of the things that came up in a lot of the research that we were doing is that perspective is a function of experience. And so to have to navigate life without understanding how the shoes fit, or how the friendships are going to go, you don't have that experience to lend. Like, asking kids to have perspective is almost a cruel thing.

• 21:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 21:48Brené Brown?

  Because you don't have the experience to understand that the fact that you got the locker under your greatest op in seventh grade, like, have some perspective, kid. No, don't. That is their world.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, that's why I love writing about young people is because there's an intensity to doing all that stuff for the first time.

• 22:13Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  That when it's absolutely unprecedented, that you just can't have perspective. You can't have any distance from the story. You can't have any sense that you're looking back because you're not, you know, there's nothing to look back on yet. And so I really love the, the ways in which when we do something for the first time, it doesn't just feel unprecedented in our lives. It feels unprecedented in like, all of human history.

• 22:38Brené Brown?

  God.

• 22:39Speaker 04

  Like, the second time you fall in love, you're like, this is great. This is amazing. It's a little bit like the first time. The first time you fall in love, you're like, wow.

• 22:49Brené Brown?

  You know what? And it's, you know, that I think this is something about your books that very few people, if any, can grab on to. Like, you like, you reach through people's bodies and grab their hearts and give them a good squeeze in a way that I'm like, fuck you, John Green. Just to be honest. But let me tell you what I think is wild, is, I swear I wasn't gonna cry. The first time you watch your kid get their heart broken.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 23:25Brené Brown?

  Hmm. You know, that's not something that's inside of your personal history, because you've had your heart broken. But watching your kid get their heart broken? You know what it feels like to not make the team? To watch your kid not make the team and walk in the back door and collapse on the floor? Like, and I just was wondering, at what age would I get to the seconds of everything? For a little salvation? But it hasn't happened yet. So, do you know what I mean?

• 24:04Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 24:06Adam Grant?

  It is, it is the worst kind of empathic distress, because you, you know what the heartbreak feels like. You remember what it was like the first time you went through it. And you're watching your kid, who you're supposed to protect, go through this, and you feel totally helpless to do anything about it. It's awful.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  And you've been told as a parent that your whole job, and you feel as a parent that your whole job is to try to save them from suffering, to try to save them from discomfort. And there's just nothing you can do, you know? And the desire to say, like, well, one day you'll remember this as, you know, a pretty minor setback in the road, is there. But that's, of course, the absolute wrong thing to do, because that, you know, minimizes what is for them the most profound pain imaginable. Yeah, it's, it's, parenting, man, is so much harder than, than I ever thought it would be. But also, like, way more interesting than I ever thought it would be.

• 25:05Brené Brown?

  You know, it's interesting. You know who really helped me with that? And I don't know that I've done it. I don't know that I've executed against the Buddhist wisdom very well, but it's been helpful, is Pema Chodron talked about compassion, having the ability to sit in the darkness with others. And so one of the things I always worked with with my, with my therapist, when, you know, even now with my kids, is don't rush to flip on the light. Sit with them in the darkness. But that goes against every parental instinct that I have.

• 25:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 25:36Brené Brown?

  You know, just to sit with them in the dark.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I remember before I was a writer, my first life, I was a chaplain at a children's hospital and thought I was going to become an Episcopal minister. And my chaplaincy supervisor said, don't just do something, stand there. It's profound. Wow. I mean, what, what a great metaphor for what it means to be supportive of somebody else.

• 26:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah. It reminds me of, Aiko Bethia was, we had her on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, or we had a recording of a coaching session she did with me at a conference. And she said, coaching is in the being, not the doing.

• 26:17Speaker 04

  Hmm. Hmm.

• 26:20Brené Brown?

  Yeah. And I didn't know we shared in common, I have to say, I didn't know we shared in common, the Episcopal priest path, which I have thought about my entire life.

• 26:30Speaker 04

  It's not too late, Brene. Second career, baby.

• 26:33Adam Grant?

  You know, I deliberately didn't mention that. I was avoiding the topic because I didn't want you two to nerd out.

• 26:38Brené Brown?

  No, no.

• 26:38Adam Grant?

  On a fiscopalian.

• 26:39Brené Brown?

  No, I think that I have, I have maybe perhaps burnt that bridge. But I still run a back burner film of it every now and then.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's the big sliding doors moment of my life. But after chaplaincy, I just couldn't see myself working from, I just couldn't do it. It's too hard.

• 26:56Brené Brown?

  I never got to the sliding door moment, but I can imagine that the, being on the platform where that sliding door opened and closed, being in a children's hospital. Jesus.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. It was really hard. I mean, I was only 22, so I didn't know what I didn't know. But, you know, I was conscious of the fact that it wasn't nearly as hard for me as it was for the people I was trying to accompany. But it was still pretty, pretty hard.

• 27:21Adam Grant?

  Yeah, but John, you do yourself a disservice when, when you describe it as a sliding doors moment, because you are a chaplain to all of your readers. You're a chaplain to all of your viewers and listeners, right? You're, you're doing the same kind of accompanying work by telling stories and sharing experiences that other people can relate to and see themselves in, and often find solace and wisdom. And I am often left reeling that, ah, John Green again, made me feel something deeply that I normally just prefer to think deeply about.

• 27:53Brené Brown?

  Hmm.

• 27:54Adam Grant?

  Like, ah, foiled.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  That is, that is your, I'm, it's so good that you know that about yourself, Adam.

• 28:04Brené Brown?

  I want to personally thank you, John Green.

• 28:07Adam Grant?

  No, no, Brene's thanking you for it. And I'm saying, screw you for doing it to me. And she, she appreciates that you do it for me.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Real value shows up in reliability you don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone All Season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road. Season after season. Firestone All Season tires. For durability you can count on, just like people count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. Since 1900.

• 28:46Speaker 05

  Fall savings are happening now at the Home Depot. Save up to $500 on select appliances. Plus, enjoy free delivery when you spend $998 or more. From prepping to cooking to cleaning up, Frigidaire has you covered. The custom Flex Temp drawer switches from fridge to freezer. With more than 15 cooking modes, including stone baked pizza mode, you can enjoy restaurant quality pizza in as little as two minutes. Then clean up with the Frigidaire dishwasher, featuring the industry's fastest normal wash cycle. Shop fall savings now at the Home Depot. Off of valid through October 21st. U.S. lease. Search online for details.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head turning style. Or take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering. With legendary resale value, built on a reputation for quality and reliability.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  So when it's time for your next Toyota, you could trade in for more. From a great deal today, to a great value tomorrow. A Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 30:16Adam Grant?

  You know, this whole discussion of young adults and the difficulty of, of being under stress and pressure in the, the world we live in, this actually brings me back to the World Cup. Because the whole world is watching, not just players in their 20s and 30s, but some teenagers, too, who are on stage. And I know Brene and I were both blown away by the open discussions we saw of mental health throughout the World Cup. How freely players talked about going to therapy and seeking help. And we would be remiss if we did not talk about this.

• 30:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a huge shift, very different from when I was a kid. I mean, I, I was diagnosed fairly early with depression when I was a teenager, and went to therapy and started taking medication and stuff. And that was very radical for the 1990s. It was essential for my survival. And I'm very, very grateful that I got diagnosed when I did. But it was also really rare. And now, it's great to see, especially these young people who so many young people look up to, talking about it openly and saying, I go to therapy, and, and, and talking about why, and talking about the benefits that they experience. I will say that it, it sort of shines a light for me on the fact that access

• 31:38Speaker 04

  to mental health care is still really dependent upon privilege. These are people who have the money to go to therapy, which a lot of folks don't. But I really commend them for talking about it so openly. Who can imagine the pressure of taking a penalty kick in the World Cup? I couldn't even get the ball over the line without a goalkeeper in the goal. And so I think, you know, the courage that takes is, is something we do really need to, to credit and celebrate.

• 32:07Brené Brown?

  In prepping for this, I tried to pull as many of the references that I could of players who spoke openly, from Jude Bellingham to Torres on the Spain team, people really saying, I see a therapist, I almost, I almost quit the game until I saw a therapist. Really, there's just no one I wanted to talk about this more than with you, John, for a lot of reasons. And I'm going to try to do probably a terrible job of bringing this back to tuberculosis everywhere. But I thought there was a really big thread there, and this is kind of the thread. So we have these players that have 30, 40, 50 million followers, talking openly

• 32:51Brené Brown?

  about help seeking, openly about mental health issues. So then my question became, does that help? And I go into the research and find that it helps with awareness, but not really. It doesn't help change behaviors, because what actually changes behaviors is a frictionless path to help.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  Hmm, access.

• 33:22Brené Brown?

  Access. And this is where I get into tuberculosis everywhere, is because, give me the line, so I don't murder it, about the cure exists where the illness isn't.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, the cure is where the disease is not, and the disease is where the cure is not.

• 33:39Brené Brown?

  Right. And how much of this is about, not that we don't know how to help, but the political will to help?

• 33:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:48Brené Brown?

  Access, privilege. I mean, I just saw a through line from your book there. Do you see it at all? Here's what we know. Like, we know that even in really well-funded campaigns around mental health, that involve celebrities and athletes, a year after those campaigns stop, there's almost negligible difference, because when people do pick up the phone, there's not a frictionless path. There's no access.

• 34:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:14Brené Brown?

  Do you see what I'm trying to draw the connection?

• 34:16Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, a couple of years ago, I had a mental health crisis, and I called the doctor, the psychiatrist, and the office was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't, I don't know. Like, I'm in the middle of a mental health crisis. I don't know what I want to do. Like, tell me what I'm supposed to do. Like, tell me what to do. Tell me, who do I see and when? Like, help me. And if I can't navigate that system, with all the, you know, good fortune that I have, how can we ask other people to navigate it? With tuberculosis, we have the cure. We've had the cure since the 1950s. We know how to cure the disease. And we basically choose not to cure it by,

• 34:56Speaker 04

  by preventing people from accessing the cure, making it too expensive, making it so that people have to pay for travel to come get their medicine every single day, rather than once a month, things like that. And those, those structures that we have built, they're human-built structures, make it so that there isn't that frictionless access. I think that's so true. Like, that's what we need to cure both the mental health crisis and the tuberculosis crisis.

• 35:23Adam Grant?

  It's such a compelling connection. And it makes me think, John, there's a sequel waiting to be written to Everything is Tuberculosis, which is Everything is Access.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:31Adam Grant?

  Everything is opportunity.

• 35:32Brené Brown?

  Wow.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  Everything is opportunity. That's so true. To the point of being, having been a low-functioning young adult, I was given all kinds of help when I was a low-functioning young adult, so that I could become sort of a medium-functioning, middle-aged guy, right? And if I hadn't had all that help, like, I remember one time, my boss came to me, and I was working a magazine, and my boss came to me, and she said, the, the HR people say you're cashing your checks at the grocery store. And I was like, yeah, how else are you gonna do it? And she was like, well, you need a bank account, John. And I was like, yeah, but I don't have an ID, so I don't have a bank account. And she was like, all right, well, I guess we're gonna go get you an ID during our lunch break.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  And she took me, and we got an ID, and then she took me to the bank the next day, and we got a bank account. And like, I say, we did that, because there was no way I could do it by myself. I was too, I couldn't do that. I just wasn't, I wasn't up for it. I didn't know how to navigate that system. I didn't, you know, I just didn't know. And if it hadn't been for that person, I would have kept cashing my checks at the grocery store and paying, you know, whatever, 10, 15% off the top.

• 36:38Brené Brown?

  Totally.

• 36:38Speaker 04

  And, and I just, I, I think so much is about frictionless access. So much of life, not just healthcare, so much of navigating the systems that we have built around everything.

• 36:51Brené Brown?

  And I love the fact that you're pointing out it's systemic, because you had someone that walked you to get the ID, that then is required to go to the bank, and then is required to do this, and then is required to set up the direct deposit. And then, you know, like, you just keep using the word systems. We have to take responsibility for the fact that we've built that which makes it impossible.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 37:17Brené Brown?

  You know, the other thing that I would feel ethically remiss to not call out from this research, was really shocking to me, in addition to frictionless access, is in sports specifically, starting young, coaches are the answer, and the biggest obstacle to mental health help. So when you have a coach that constantly talks about it as important, normalizes it, there is help seeking. The majority of players, and this is from studies

• 37:59Brené Brown?

  done across different sports and the Olympics, it is the number one people that athletes want to keep the information away from, is their coach. And it's the number one person that makes it accessible and reduces friction if they're willing to do it. And so if you're out there, and you're a coach, and you're listening, which I know we do have a lot of sports coaches that listen, because Adam and I do a lot of work in that area, it's a big responsibility and a big opportunity. You are the biggest barrier, and you are the greatest hope. I think it's really important to name that.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:40Adam Grant?

  Yeah, John, this, this makes me wonder about your middle school soccer or football coach. You said you, you realized you were a motivational tool earlier, but

• 38:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:51Adam Grant?

  I also wonder if you were something bigger than just that. If you were also an opportunity for the team to talk about how talent is not the only thing that matters, or what we're all gonna do to support each other.

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:04Adam Grant?

  I don't know how much you remember about that coach, but I'm just wondering if, if there are dots to connect to what Brene was saying, and that formative experience of yours.

• 39:12Speaker 04

  He was certainly not a coach who would tell you to seek mental, mental health.

• 39:19Brené Brown?

  Nicely done, John.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  He was a good coach. He was a good coach. He was a good coach in a lot of ways. But I think the sort of positive spin on what he was saying, is there's this great basketball player, TJ McConnell, for the Indianapolis Pacers. And he's known as a guy who doesn't have the size, he doesn't have the speed, he doesn't have this, but he plays really hard. And what he says is, playing hard is a skill. If it wasn't, everyone would do it. And I did play really, really hard. Like, I jumped for every ball. I played hard. I still play hard. And I think maybe the positive spin is he was saying, look, playing hard is a skill, and, and this guy has it, and the rest of you should try to learn it.

• 40:04Brené Brown?

  I mean, we've all seen teams that have a ton of talent. No glue, no effort. As a sports really maniac, I would never trust a team full of talent, and no glue, and no hard ethic skill.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's why they need me in the locker room, Brene, the glue guy. It's not too late for me.

• 40:25Brené Brown?

  It's not too late.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  Pick me, Poch. I'm ready. I'm ready.

• 40:28Brené Brown?

  Put him in.

• 40:30Adam Grant?

  I was gonna try to recruit you to the Sixers, but then LeBron just signed, so I feel like we're full.

• 40:35Brené Brown?

  All right, should we rapid fire, John?

• 40:38Speaker 04

  Great.

• 40:39Adam Grant?

  Yeah, I think it's lightning round time.

• 40:40Brené Brown?

  You want to start?

• 40:41Adam Grant?

  Uh, no, you start.

• 40:43Brené Brown?

  Okay. John, what's one thing you're deeply curious about right now?

• 40:47Speaker 04

  Cholera. I'm really interested in cholera, this disease that continues to kill over 100,000 people a year, even though it's been eliminated from most rich countries.

• 40:58Brené Brown?

  Wow.

• 40:59Adam Grant?

  Wow, you know you're an Oregon Trail generation member, Wayne.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  That's right. That's right. But it's not just an Oregon Trail problem, Adam. It's a present tense problem. So I'm very interested in cholera and water supply in general. Like, it's another system where we're seeing the failures really laid bare.

• 41:19Adam Grant?

  Wow.

• 41:19Brené Brown?

  I mean, globally, really scary.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Water. Water is such a big deal.

• 41:27Brené Brown?

  And public health and water, the intersection of those two things.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. And that's not just a problem. You don't have to go to a poor country to see challenges with underfunded public healthcare systems.

• 41:39Brené Brown?

  No.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  And I'll leave that there.

• 41:41Brené Brown?

  And it's getting worse with this administration. I mean, like, my husband's a pediatrician, and when we were talking about the recent outbreak of, tell me what it is.

• 41:50Adam Grant?

  The lettuce one.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  What is it, Adam?

• 41:51Adam Grant?

  Cyclo, yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  Cyclophore. We all, we all know. Everybody knows.

• 41:55Brené Brown?

  Yeah, you can't even bring up measles with my husband. It just really, you just have to bring it up and run for your life. But, you know, what I would say, like, tell me what's going on with this lettuce. And he's like, don't worry, it's not funded anymore, but there are two guys on Reddit who have it figured out. And, you know, he's just so frustrated about the simultaneous, the growing crisis juxtaposed with the just slashing of funding.

• 42:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, it's terrible.

• 42:22Brené Brown?

  Hard.

• 42:23Adam Grant?

  All right, my activist friends, I gotta rein this in for the, for the rapid fire round.

• 42:28Brené Brown?

  Go.

• 42:29Adam Grant?

  All right, John, here's our next quick question. You've probably been to curiosity shops at various points in your life. If you got to design the wildest, wackiest, weirdest curiosity shop, what would you put in it?

• 42:41Speaker 04

  It already exists. It's the world's largest collection of the world's smallest versions of the world's largest objects. So this person will take the world's largest bulb of twine, and recreate it on a very small scale, and then sell that. That is brilliant. The world's largest collection of the world's smallest versions of the world's largest objects. I mean, chef's kiss.

• 43:06Brené Brown?

  No chef's kiss, because I've never heard anything more John Green in my life.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  I know, I know.

• 43:12Adam Grant?

  So true.

• 43:14Brené Brown?

  I mean, if you were a thing, you would be that thing.

• 43:21Brené Brown?

  Okay, what is one thing you're deeply grateful for right now?

• 43:25Speaker 04

  Oh, my family, my family. Yeah, just the regular rhythm of summertime with the family is pretty special. And I know that it's fleeting. My, my son is 16 now, so it's, um, we only got a couple more years of, of it like this. So I'll miss it.

• 43:41Brené Brown?

  Oh, my God, I'm not going to say anything because it's just going to be sad, but it's like.

• 43:45Speaker 04

  Don't spoil it for me, Brene.

• 43:47Brené Brown?

  No, I'm just saying, uh, don't blink.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  I know, I know. Well, it's gonna happen anyway. It's gonna go so fast. It already has gone so fast.

• 43:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 43:57Adam Grant?

  Oh, I don't want to take us on a tangent here, but anticipatory nostalgia is something that was never warned is part of watching your kids grow up.

• 44:05Speaker 04

  Totally. My wife, the first time we ever had lunch, we went to the same high school and I was talking about high school. And then I was talking about when my book was going to come out because I had just finished a draft of my first book and just sold it. And, um, my wife's now wife, at the time friend, said imagining the future is a kind of nostalgia. And I was like, oh, my God, you're so cool.

• 44:32Brené Brown?

  I mean, she was coming on hard for you. She was. I mean, look, she met you and she worked that line for like hours and she knew that would seal the deal because again.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  It worked.

• 44:48Brené Brown?

  John Green is an adjective in our house. That is a John Green seduction line, if I have ever heard one.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  It was very effective. In fact, I put it in, I put it in my first novel. I went home and, and put it in the book and then asked her later if I could use it.

• 45:03Brené Brown?

  That's your love language, dude.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  It is. Give me lines for my books.

• 45:07Adam Grant?

  John, I, I hope you proposed.

• 45:11Adam Grant?

  I hope you proposed to Sarah the next day.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  No, no, no, it was a little while longer, Adam. I was a little more cautious than that.

• 45:17Brené Brown?

  Plus he had to, he had to gather more quotes, obviously. She was killing it.

• 45:23Brené Brown?

  Okay, I have to ask this rapid fire, um, because I'm, I'm always get anxious when you've got a new book coming out. I just have to like gear up, let my therapist know I'm going into a John Green period. She's like, great, I'm short on cash. Tell us about the new book. You gotta tell us.

• 45:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the new book is called Hollywood Ending. It's, uh, my first book for adults, my first novel for adults. And it's about two people in their early twenties who are in a movie together. And, uh, the movie starts to get a lot of attention. It's about the last year of Andy Warhol's life and it starts to get a lot of attention. And it gets a lot of attention. Their lives also start to blow up in ways that are really intoxicating, but also really difficult. And it's really about how we survive trauma, how we, um, survive what we need to survive and, and how we find the love that helps us survive it.

• 46:12Brené Brown?

  Can I ask one question about the comma?

• 46:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, so there's a comma in the title, Hollywood, comma, ending.

• 46:18Brené Brown?

  I knew, I, I was like, screw you, John Green.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  It's set in 2019, when I do think Hollywood was comma ending a little bit, or a certain kind of Hollywood was comma ending. But also, yes, it is meant to be there to complicate the idea of a Hollywood ending.

• 46:35Brené Brown?

  That is so you, dude.

• 46:36Adam Grant?

  It is. And having done an early peek at the, the beginning of the book, uh, as I resist the temptation to read the whole thing instead of preparing for this conversation, I mean, it is vintage John Green. It's for adults, it's for young adults and it's, I, I'm, I already have tons of questions about the characters that I'm not going to ask you right now. What I'm going to ask you instead is, uh, you're going to do a big fall tour for Hollywood Ending. We'll put the locations and dates in the show notes for any of our fans who want to come see you in action, which I can say from experience, it's a very special thing to live through. And John, you have a remarkable ability to create the kind of collective effervescence that now all of us are missing post-World Cup.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Thank you, Adam.

• 47:16Adam Grant?

  You've, you've earned it. You're about to embark on this tour. What are you most excited for?

• 47:22Speaker 04

  You know, every time you're in a room like that, that's the only time that group of people will ever be together. And it's so fleeting, it's so beautiful. That's what I'm looking forward to is, is being in those literally unique, unprecedented rooms and talking about stuff that matters with people I care about.

• 47:47Brené Brown?

  So beautiful. Thank you so much for coming to the curiosity shop. Could you even build, Adam, a curiosity shop that didn't have John Green in it? I mean, I don't, I, I don't think so. Like, if you were a shop, that's what you would be.

• 47:59Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 48:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, just such a pleasure to meet you. It's so weird that we've never met, but I'm glad we have now.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  Great pleasure to meet you too. I can report to all the Brene fans out there that Brene is just as lovely as you would expect, and so is Adam. So what a joy to be with y'all today and what a gift both of your work is in my life. So thank you.

• 48:23Adam Grant?

  Right back at you. And we can't put you in a curiosity shop, John, because too many people would line up and you wouldn't be able to get in the door.

• 48:30Brené Brown?

  That's true.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  It's kind.

• 48:32Brené Brown?

  Thanks, John.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Thanks, y'all.

• 48:35Brené Brown?

  Hey, and go Liverpool this fall.

• 48:36Speaker 04

  Go Liverpool. We're going to do something extraordinary this year. I can feel it.

• 48:40Brené Brown?

  I'm so ready.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Real value shows up in reliability you don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone All-Season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road. Season after season. Firestone All-Season tires. For durability you can count on, just like people count on you. Firestone, always dependable, since 1900.

• 49:14Speaker 06

  Purchase new carpet from The Home Depot and get it installed for free right now. Shop the stylish choices and simple pricing of carpet from Home Decorator's Collection, Traffic Master, or life-proof with pet-proof technology. And see for yourself why nobody beats our prices. Enjoy new carpet with free installation right now at The Home Depot. Offer valid October 15th through November 1st, 2026. Exclusions apply. For licenses, see homedepot.com/license numbers.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head-turning style. Or take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering. With legendary resale value, built on a reputation for quality and reliability.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  So when it's time for your next Toyota, you could trade in for more. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 50:44Adam Grant?

  How much do you love John Green?

• 50:45Brené Brown?

  On a scale from one to 10, 11.

• 50:47Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 50:47Brené Brown?

  Off the scale.

• 50:48Adam Grant?

  Same. It's not fair that he's real.

• 50:51Brené Brown?

  No, we could have gone down the Episcopal priest route. Like, it's really good you reined us in.

• 50:55Adam Grant?

  I really tried to hide that. Uh, I was like, oh no, they could go there.

• 51:00Brené Brown?

  It all makes sense to me now. You know, when I was prepping for this, everything I read was like, oh, this makes sense. Oh, this makes sense. Oh, this makes sense.

• 51:06Adam Grant?

  All of it makes sense. There's one thing I have to, I have to quibble with though, which is he called himself a medium-functioning adult. If John Green is medium-functioning, the rest of us are in a lot of trouble.

• 51:18Brené Brown?

  Oh, my God, I hated every second when he said that. I was like, I can't rank against that dude. Like, that is like, if, if that's where you are, I'm in trouble.

• 51:26Adam Grant?

  I feel like he has all these identities that could each be a full-time job. And he's the kindest, most thoughtful, most creative person on earth doing that thing. And then he's doing several other of them too. How do you do it all?

• 51:42Brené Brown?

  What I think is interesting about his work is his ability to, it's that great definition of creativity that I love, the ability to connect the seemingly unconnectable. Do you know what I mean?

• 51:54Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 51:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I just think we were lucky to get to talk to him about so many different things. And, you know, as a, I don't know what this means, and I get criticized for saying this a lot, but as a reluctant public person, the Hollywood Ending book, I think, is going to be tough. And people are like, there's no such thing as a reluctant public person. But I would say you're kind of one too, right?

• 52:18Adam Grant?

  Very much so. Yeah, I think we both are in different ways.

• 52:21Brené Brown?

  Like, maybe by reluctant, I think, I don't get a lot out of that part of my work, but I invested in my work having impact. And then that means sometimes I have to be the vessel for my work, but I'm not cut out for it because I'm a little bit tender-hearted and private and I just don't know how to do it very well sometimes. But I'm excited for Hollywood Ending. I think it's going to be a tough read for those of us in that position or for, for any of us trying to, I saw something this weekend that for some reason tied me straight to John's new book from Kate Bowler that said, thinking about those of y'all who are spending your time, being grateful for the moments you're in, not trying to capture them

• 53:05Brené Brown?

  for an audience who will be grateful for them. You know?

• 53:09Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 53:09Brené Brown?

  And I was just like, wow. When he said all of us are public people to some degree right now, it made me think of that quote from Kate Bowler.

• 53:18Brené Brown?

  Yeah, just being in the moments and not capturing them for an audience, but being in them is powerful.

• 53:24Adam Grant?

  Spot on. I read a paper a few years ago that actually tried to document this empirically, where I think if I remember correctly, people were randomly assigned to be in an experience and either take a photo or a selfie or not. And the people who captured it actually enjoyed the experience less. They literally took themselves out of it in order to preserve the memory for the future and miss out on the present. And I remember reading that research and thinking, what is the point of capturing it for the future if there's no emotion felt during it? It might as well be a picture of somebody else because you weren't there.

• 53:59Brené Brown?

  I'm kind of breathless about that. And I know intuitively it's true. Can I tell you a quick parenting story?

• 54:05Adam Grant?

  Please. I always love parenting stories, especially from you.

• 54:08Brené Brown?

  Ellen and I were at Herman Park, which is kind of the medical center in Houston. And I used to pick the kids up from school all the time and take them either to the train that went around the zoo at Herman Park, or sometimes we would feed the ducks. And, you know, what are those things called that you ride where you, the bicycle and these little boats?

• 54:26Adam Grant?

  Oh, the pedal boats.

• 54:27Brené Brown?

  Pedal boat, yeah. And we were in the pedal boat and it was just a random day after school. And I looked over and her face was really scrunched up. And I said, Ellen, are you okay? And she didn't answer. And, you know, immediately I was like, Ellen, Ellen, are you okay? And, you know, I wasn't pedaling, we were just floating. And I said, what's going on? And she said, I'm good. I'm just making a picture memory. And I said, what? And she said, I'm just making a picture memory of right now. So when things are harder later, I can remember this. And

• 55:02Adam Grant?

  Wow.

• 55:04Brené Brown?

  It was so striking to me that sometimes if I'm in a moment and I want to get out my phone, I'll just say, just make a picture, close your eye and make a picture memory. You know? And so when you talk about that research, I think there's a difference between bringing out a device and capturing it because inherently in that you're either thinking about an audience that's going to see that picture. But a picture memory sometimes is even more powerful to me. Does that make sense? I don't know how to describe it.

• 55:35Adam Grant?

  It does. It does. It, oh, I love that image so much. I want to take a picture of that right now. Just close your eyes and capture that. I think, yeah, I mean, you're not, your, your interaction isn't now happening through a device. It's actually happening in your head and your heart, which makes it much more meaningful. And

• 55:57Brené Brown?

  Oh, it's beautiful.

• 55:58Adam Grant?

  And the fact that it's not physically or digitally preserved, I think that's part of what makes it poignant, that only you can conjure it.

• 56:07Brené Brown?

  Ah, it's the conjuring. It's beautiful. All right. Before we head off, let me ask you first, what are you taking away from the conversation and what are you going to keep thinking about?

• 56:20Adam Grant?

  I think, I think my biggest takeaway is that I need to find more shared projects for some of the relationships that I care about, that right now, we're kind of catching up on each other's lives as opposed to, you know, rooting for the same thing or being part of the same thing. And I want to work on that. What am I thinking about? I really, I think we need a whole body of research on the question of how do you build an us without a them? I think that is maybe the question of our time. How about you?

• 56:49Brené Brown?

  Oh, that's my takeaway. My takeaway, I have two takeaways. One is, how do you build an us without a them? And how do you define an us without a them? And because I think the defining is part of the problem. And then my second one is, no matter what we do when we're trying to help people, we always need to think about frictionless access.

• 57:11Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 57:13Brené Brown?

  You know, like is such a big part that we can bring into awareness, but if awareness is not followed by the ability to action, something with minimum friction, awareness fades.

• 57:25Adam Grant?

  So important. And paradoxically, it also brings to mind that line that John relayed about, don't just do something, stand there.

• 57:35Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 57:36Adam Grant?

  You and I are both, we have such a bias toward action. We like to do things. We like to solve. We like to fix. And I'm going to hear that echoing in my head every time my kids bring me a problem. Don't just do something, stand there. And I think with your prompt, it's stand there in the dark.

• 57:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 57:55Adam Grant?

  Don't turn on the light yet.

• 57:56Brené Brown?

  And that's still to this day, ooh, I have to fight a lot of fixer in me to do it. But it's really, I think it's teaching, teaching our kids especially how to be in pain is a gift, but ooh, it's a tough one. John Green, thank you for introducing us and thank you for bringing him on the Curiosity Shop. What a gift.

• 58:17Adam Grant?

  Always.

• 58:20Brené Brown?

  The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

• 58:30Adam Grant?

  We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

• 58:36Speaker 06

  Purchase new carpet from The Home Depot and get it installed for free right now. Shop the stylish choices and simple pricing of carpet from Home Decorator's Collection, Traffic Master, or life-proof with pet-proof technology. And see for yourself why nobody beats our prices. Enjoy new carpet with free installation right now at The Home Depot. Offer valid October 15 through November 1, 2026. Exclusions apply. For licenses, see home depot.com/license numbers.

• 59:06Speaker 07

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 59:36Speaker 06

  For marketers, controlling how your brand shows up in AI search is a top priority. That's why a third of the Fortune 100 and companies like Figma, Ramp, and Cursor rely on Profound. Profound is a leading AI marketing platform that shows you what people ask AI and what AI says back about your brand. Profound's AI marketer then does the work to improve your brand's visibility, accuracy, and strength against competitors in AI search. To control how AI talks about your brand, go to profound.com.