Leading Under Pressure with Rebecca Lowe

What does it take to stay calm when millions are watching? Rebecca Lowe, the host of NBC’s Premier League coverage and Fox’s record-breaking 2026 World Cup broadcast, joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant to explore why preparation—not confidence—is her real superpower; the weight of being one of the only women in the room; and what it really means to lead when things get chaotic. Together, they unpack the difference between presence and preparedness, the “permission slip” moment that defines great leadership, and why the loudest person in the room isn’t always the one in charge. Along the way, Rebecca reflects on breaking barriers in a male-dominated industry, how she earns trust from personalities like Zlatan Ibrahimović, and the teachable habit she uses to keep her co-hosts focused on live TV. The Return of Coach Lasso – NBC Sports, 2014, YouTube Nessun Dorma, Rome 1990 – Luciano Pavarotti, 1990, YouTube Double Standards for Competence – Martha Foschi, 2000, Annual Review of Sociology "Executive Presence" Is Overrated – Adam Grant & Brené Brown, 2025, Instagram Entrepreneur Passion and Preparedness in Business Plan Presentations – Xiao-Ping Chen, 2009, Academy of Management Journal Beyond Nine to Five – Lieke ten Brummelhuis, 2017, Academy of Management Discoveries Building atomic habits with James Clear – Adam Grant (Host), July 21, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant Can Your Employees Really Speak Freely? – James Detert, 2016, Harvard Business Review Trailblazing Motivation and Marginalized Group Members – Karren Knowlton, 2025, Organization Science Bullet Time Effect in "Sherlock" the BBC TV Series – Moffat & Gattiss, January 14, 2014, BBC/YouTube Conversational Style – Deborah Tannen, 2005, Oxford University Press Who Won't Shut Up in Meetings? – Adam Grant, 2021, The Washington Post Dare to Lead read-along workbook (Permission Slips) – Brené Brown, 2021, Brené Brown, LLC Tell Me What I Did Wrong – Stacey Finkelstein, 2012, Journal of Consumer Research Emotional Contagion – Elaine Hatfield, 1993, Current Directions in Psychological Science Huge If True – Cleo Abram, YouTube Range – David Epstein, 2019, Riverhead Books The science of performing under pressure with Sian Beilock – Adam Grant (Host), March 28, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant (“Twisties” discussion at 8:50) Hidden Potential – Adam Grant, 2023, Viking What Being Sober Has Meant to Me – Brené Brown, 2019, brenebrown.com The Gifts of Imperfection – Brené Brown, 2010, Hazelden Publishing Positive Conceptions of Perfectionism – Joachim Stoeber, 2006, Personality and Social Psychology Review The Queen Bee Phenomenon – Belle Derks, 2016, The Leadership Quarterly Some Effects of Proportions on Group Life: Skewed Sex Ratios and Responses to Token Women – Rosabeth Moss Kanter, 1977, American Journal of Sociology Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex – Kimberlé Crenshaw, 1989, University of Chicago Legal Forum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:00Speaker 02

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• 1:30Brené Brown?

  Welcome to The Curiosity Shop.

• 1:31Adam Grant?

  A show from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

• 1:40Brené Brown?

  Hey, Adam.

• 1:41Adam Grant?

  Hey, Renee.

• 1:42Brené Brown?

  I gotta tell you, my sisters and I are losing our minds about our guest today.

• 1:48Adam Grant?

  I wasn't even sure if you were gonna show up. Were you gonna be speechless?

• 1:53Brené Brown?

  No, I came. I am prepared and I am excited. Let's go. I'm gonna try not to lose my mind, y'all, because in The Curiosity Shop with us, sitting next to the cash register on the bar in the shop, is Rebecca Lo. Here's what my sisters and I have come up with as the bio. The most praised person on the most-watched soccer broadcast in American history. The 2026 World Cup final drew 38.9 million viewers on Fox with a peak of 51.7, the most-watched

• 2:33Brené Brown?

  soccer telecast in US history, and you fronted that sucker. You have hosted NBC's Premier League coverage every season since 2013, seven consecutive Olympics as NBC's daytime host. You have a Sports Emmy, which we can see because she's a badass, from her Paris 2024 coverage. She's a drama graduate who is going to be an actress. She played, is this true, you played one season of high school soccer or football?

• 3:06Speaker 05

  I mean, I mean, it's not, it's half a season and pretty terribly, but yeah, carry on.

• 3:13Brené Brown?

  And my sisters and I were obsessed with the way she covered the World Cup. So we have Rebecca Lo with us on The Curiosity Shop, and I'm losing my mind, Adam.

• 3:27Adam Grant?

  Rightfully so. I mean, Rebecca, before I knew you as face and voice of the Olympics, but now you've become the face and voice of the World Cup. But even before that, I loved you when you did the bit with Ted Lasso.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, Ted Lasso, that's a whole nother situation. Guys, thank you so much. That was, I'm clipping that introduction off and listening to that when I'm having a bad day because that was the most beautiful thing. Thank you so much. Can I just say what an honor it is to be on this with you guys, truly. We said just before we started recording that when the requests came in, that went just right to the top of every request I've had this week, so far above every other request as well. So thank you for having me.

• 4:11Adam Grant?

  I wanna know who we beat.

• 4:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah, of course you do. Email us, email us later.

• 4:16Adam Grant?

  Not to get competitive.

• 4:17Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Okay, I wanna start back with, did you fall in love with football as going to Crystal Palace? Where did this start?

• 4:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's it, Renee, that's it. We can date it back to September-ish of 1989. And my dad, I guess he had two tickets and somebody couldn't go to a game. And you don't take nine-year-old girls in the 80s to football in England. Like, that isn't, that was not a thing, but there was no one else to go. Actually, he can't remember this, me going, so therefore he can't remember why he thought asking me was a good idea. My brother was obviously busy. All of my dad's friends were clearly busy. And he must have just looked at me and gone, yep, that's fine, you'll do, come on, let's go. My parents got divorced around that time, and I just wonder whether maybe he thought, you know, this could be

• 5:16Speaker 05

  a little bonding thing, like a one-off. Like, I don't for one second think my dad thought this would be something that we would then spend the next four decades doing together. But I went to that game, and I remember it a little bit. I don't remember it too much. And then six months later, it was the World Cup of 1990, which was in Italy. And England had a really good team, and we got to the semifinals. And there was a lot of drama around the team, and things happened, and it caught the imagination more than ever of the country. And because I'd just been introduced to football through my dad taking me to that game, and then that Crystal Palace had had quite a good few months, I just, that was it. I fell in love with Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma, which was the soundtrack to

• 5:59Speaker 05

  that World Cup in 1990, which still gives me chills. I know, I know, it still does. Sometimes I just put that thing on in the car, and I whack it up, and I just go back to being nine years old. And that was it. It got into my system, and it became very normal for me to love football, which, again, for a nine, 10-year-old in the 80s, early 90s, that wasn't normal. But for me, it's always felt normal.

• 6:24Brené Brown?

  What did, I know you don't remember the game very well, but what did, going into that World Cup, what are the emotion words, this is gonna be Adam's favorite part, FYI, what are the emotion words that come up for you when you think about football?

• 6:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's, God, it gives me chills just even thinking about that. What a great question. Belonging, I think, is one. That's probably not an emotion, is it?

• 6:53Brené Brown?

  Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a, it's a human experience that elicits huge emotion, yes.

• 6:58Speaker 05

  So, yeah, belonging, community, a pure joy that you don't find, or I haven't yet found anywhere else, a release, I think, a real release, which happens when you score a goal, and a bonding. I mean, I think those are the, those, when I look at it now, and I think about it now, being a part of a fan experience following a team like Crystal Palace or following a country like England, it felt very much like being a part of something. And I think that is what I love so much. That mutual experience of all wanting the same thing and all hoping to get it, and very rarely getting it. But when you do get

• 7:43Speaker 05

  it, when the goal goes in or the game is won, oh my goodness. Again, a mutual feeling of joy, which you just don't get anywhere else, guys.

• 7:52Adam Grant?

  Well, Rebecca, to that last point, I'm struck by how positive these emotions are. Are you sure you're British?

• 8:01Speaker 05

  Well, when I said you don't get it very often, Adam, I will just go, return to that, because as a Crystal Palace fan, you definitely don't get it very often. We actually had no trophies for 160-odd years. And then a year ago, we won the FA Cup, which goes down as top three days of my life. And that was, that was a long wait. And England are still, I'm still waiting. You know, they won the World Cup in 66, I was born in 80, so I'm still waiting. I thought this summer would be it. But, yeah, but I think, as they say, it's the hope that kills you. We just keep coming back, don't we? We keep coming back to, and it's not just football. For me, it's football because that's England, and that's in our blood, and that's like a religion over there, and that's kind of, that's how you grow up in England. But for lots of people, it's every kind of sport. And that's what,

• 8:45Speaker 05

  that's what keeps us coming back, is the hope. But it's also the hope that keeps killing us time and time again, but we never learn.

• 8:51Brené Brown?

  I thank God we never learn. Okay, take me to the University of East Anglia.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 9:00Brené Brown?

  You are, you're gonna, was your mom an actor?

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, so my mom was an actress growing, so when I grew up, she gave up acting in my early years because she had myself and my brother, and she turned to teaching drama. So, but she was an actress through the 70s and 80s, or early 80s. And my dad was a news anchor for the BBC for 37 years. That was what, he was a news reporter and then a news reader, as we call them in the UK. So two very creative, interesting, dynamic careers to follow. And I can never, I can't remember not wanting to be an actress. That was always the dream. The problem was, my dad was educated at Oxford University, highly intelligent, way more intelligent than I. And he had great hopes that I would follow

• 9:44Speaker 05

  in his footsteps and go to Oxford. And he wasn't overly keen about me being an actress. My mom wasn't overly keen about me being an actress, actually, I don't think either, just because she knew the business, and it was a, you know, gonna be a hell of a climb. Yes, exactly, Brené, your face says everything, like knocking on doors, getting rejected, all of the things. And so I was like, no, you know, as a young person, no, you're both wrong, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna be the one that succeeds. And the deal with my dad was, I won't go to drama school. So a bit like Juilliard in New York, there's lots of, there's drama schools in London, that's where I really wanted to go after high school. But dad was like, uh-uh, you need to get a degree. And I said, well, I don't wanna go to Oxford because they don't do drama as a degree. And he said, right, well, the

• 10:27Speaker 05

  compromise is, you can't go to drama school, but you go to university, and you can go and do drama at university and find a good, could you go to Cambridge, maybe? Because, no, I don't want, I just wanna go and do drama, because Cambridge also does not have drama. So I went to University of East Anglia, and I have to be honest, other than the group of, the handful of friends that I made, that of course I'm still deeply friend, you know, friends with now, it was a means to an end. It wasn't, I didn't love it, I wasn't, I'm not, I just wanted to get going. I wanted to get going. I wanted to get out there and start auditioning and try and just be this actress that I thought I could be. So I didn't love, you know, I didn't love having 40 pounds a week in my pocket to live off, and I didn't love living in a horrible, dirty, you know, you just, that's holic, and some people love

• 11:11Speaker 05

  that. And I'm not a big drinker, I'm not a big party, like, it just wasn't me. So as soon as I could get out, I was out.

• 11:18Brené Brown?

  I just wanna know how you stumbled into the broadcasting opportunity.

• 11:24Speaker 05

  Well, it is a weird story. So in the final year of college, I sort of partnered up with a girl called Lucy, and she was way more talented than me, but we were a bit of a double act. And in the UK, I would describe us as maybe like a French and Saunders, which is a very, a very famous. Yeah, okay. So Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders. I mean, let me just say, we were nowhere near Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders, but that's what we sort of wanted to be, a kind of a, a double act, not stand up comedians, but that would just kind of act together in different, you know, skit shows and things like that.

• 11:53Brené Brown?

  Amy and Tina.

• 11:53Speaker 05

  And she was brilliant. But she was a year. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. But she's a year younger than me. So the plan was that I would graduate, she would follow me a year later. And while I was one year out of college and she was finishing, I would find us an agent, it would all be fine. And by the time she graduated, we would launch ourselves onto the scene and become super. But you know, yeah, that's how you think we are 21. Well, the irony is that Lucy went to a, back in the day in 2002, they had record stores. Okay. So she went to a record store to buy a CD. The people listening are like, what? And she went up to the counter to buy a CD on this day, towards the end of my final year. And she saw a flyer at the, at the front desk. And the BBC was

• 12:36Speaker 05

  searching for a number of different talents. It was called BBC Talent, search for various things, whether it was a on air meteorologist, or a DJ for their BBC radio. And it was ever a producer, loads of things. One of the things was a soccer reporter. And we were sitting on the grass at college, and I was almost graduated, and the plan was still for us to launch ourselves. And she showed me it. And she said, look, there's an audition for a sitcom that I think we should go for, which we did and failed. But there's also a soccer reporter. Why don't you go for that? And I said, because I'm a woman? And like, I don't think I'm gonna, still in 2002, by the way, there was no, I didn't know very

• 13:18Speaker 05

  many girls who liked football. Yeah. And she said, yeah, but that might be, to be honest, that might be a good thing. Because we were just starting to enter a whole new world of like, who knows, maybe we can turn the tables a little bit. So I said, okay. So I applied for it. Long story short, I graduated, forgot all about it. A few months later, I got a letter, and I got to the next round, and I kept getting to the next round, and the next round. And six months after I graduated, I won it. And it was a six month contract as a reporter with the BBC on a couple of their flagship soccer shows. And I took the job, it was a six month contract. I took the job thinking, well, that's fine. I'll just do it. Really good money for six months. Great. So I'll do that. Save the money. And then when Lucy graduates, we'll

• 14:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 05

  do what we were always planning. But it was really good. And unfortunately, I had to say, Lucy, you remember, you remember that thing you told me I should do, and I've done, and now I want to keep doing it. And I'm so sorry. But she was incredible, and she totally understood. And that was it. I stayed at the BBC. And it wasn't easy. I had some ups and downs, and I lost contracts, and unemployed, and back employed again, and freelance. And then I got a contract, and all of that. But that's how I got in.

• 14:25Adam Grant?

  Wow. Wait, Rebecca, okay, I want to, I want to go back to you getting chosen. We're the same age. I remember, I mean, this, this world was completely dominated by men, on TV, on radio, like, sports were associated with men. And then, as unfortunately is still true now empirically, a woman would have had to have been so much better than all the men in the contest, just to get considered fairly. What did you do that made you stand out?

• 14:52Speaker 05

  Gosh. Um, I think I did a lot of homework before, before I went into the final.

• 14:59Brené Brown?

  She's such a baller. She's always prepared. Okay.

• 15:02Speaker 05

  That's kind of my thing, guys. I mean, I, I, anytime you're unprepared, while for just for me, I feel terrified, no matter what I'm going into, but especially for a work thing. So I remember going in knowing I had, because I wasn't a trained journalist. And this was for a journalist. And I was, so I was sort of double nervous, because I just thought, I am so far behind everybody else. And somehow I keep getting through. But I did a lot of homework on who I was going to interview, which was the main host of the soccer show, that eventually I would actually end up working with, funnily enough. And I knew about his background. And so I had two minutes to interview him. So I managed to do that. And I managed to ask him questions that I'm fairly certain nobody else asked him, because I really delved into his background. And I could tell just by his facial expressions.

• 15:43Speaker 05

  So I thought that went really well. Then I had to do a piece to camera. And the good thing with that was, I'm so, I was so used to learning lines. So when they said to us, you're going to do a piece to camera for one minute about this pair of soccer boots that belonged to Michael Owen, a player for England at the time, can't remember too much else about it. But I quickly wrote it, learnt it real quick. And I managed to deliver it, because I was so used to acting and delivering lines, I managed to deliver it without a stumble. So I think that, and I just think that, to be honest with you, I'm a very old soul. And I think at 21, which was the age I was in that final, I just don't think I came across as kind of young and flighty. I think I came across as kind

• 16:24Speaker 05

  of deadly serious. And I've always been deadly serious about my direction in life, how hard I want to work, what I want to achieve. And I think maybe that, when I remember the other contestants that day, I remember feeling older than them. And they should, not that they should have been different, we were all similar ages, but in fact, some of them were older than me. But I just felt, I just, I just knew that I could do it. And I just have always been, like I say, this old soul. And maybe that's what set me apart.

• 16:53Adam Grant?

  I hear maturity, professionalism, pretty much anything except executive presence, Brene.

• 16:58Brené Brown?

  No, I mean, I was just, I was like, this is, Rebecca, we have this thing where Adam and I both have this shared passion around do not confuse presence with preparedness. If you take your work seriously, and you prepare, that is the presence that you need. You don't need any like bullshit, you know, acting and, you know, subordinating. You just need its preparedness and seriousness. And, and while you are, it's, it's interesting, because when I watch you, and the thing I talk about with my sisters a lot, is you only have permission to be as fun as you are at that table, when you are fricking

• 17:39Brené Brown?

  prepared. Preparedness is the unlock to fun, to going off script a little bit, because you are ready.

• 17:49Speaker 05

  And it's boring sometimes, guys, doing that amount of prepared preparation. It's not always fun. It's, it's, it's year after year, I've done the same, you know, preparation for the, the show that I do at NBC, for the World Cup, night after night. You know, there wasn't, and I don't, this is just what I, not everyone is the same, but this is just what I believe in very strongly. You know, I, there was never a second in my hotel room where I didn't have a podcast on from a, a really good established soccer newspaper, or a radio show, or whatever it was, to just constantly feed me information. And sometimes you don't even know the information's going in, but it comes out later on the show. And so that all of that, and, and, and doing the same thing over and over again, as I have done for years and years and years and years, I so, and also, like I said, I'm

• 18:34Speaker 05

  an old soul. I'm also incredibly boring. I'd never go out. I never go out for a drink. I, in fact, I stopped drinking before the World Cup. I never drink when I work anyway. And I was like, right, I'm giving up drinking for the World Cup. And then I also just don't, I'm just not a big socialization person with work colleagues. So I'm never a drink after work kind of person. And they take the Mickey out of me everywhere I work. I say, oh, Rebecca, she never goes out. No, I don't. Because I'm preparing, because the fear in my body of being on air, and something happens, and I can't fill that time, which is my job. You can't come back from that. So I would rather be so boring, and, and so that when that light goes on, like you said, Brene, I am so ready, no matter what happens, I've got notes. And that's the other thing, I'm not an iPad person. I am, as you probably

• 19:19Speaker 05

  saw on my desk, we've got a lot of notes going on. We've got a lot of paperwork, there's a lot of stuff. But that makes me feel centered. And I owe that to my employer, I owe that to myself, and I owe that to the viewer. In my opinion, you cannot be more prepared. It's not always fun. It's the kind of behind the scenes stuff. But without that, I mean, it makes me feel sick, the idea of going on air without that feeling of centeredness. I know what I'm doing. I've got everything I need. I've done it. And of course, we don't use it all. I mean, I've hardly ever used, I would say, probably used

• 19:52Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's not the point, right?

• 19:53Speaker 05

  It's not the point. It's not the point. It's not the point. It gives you that presence of mind. It gives you that safety net in your brain. And, and it's, I just think it's the right thing to do.

• 20:02Adam Grant?

  Brene, I'm just dropping a note in later. We got to talk about Xiaoping Chen's research on passion versus preparedness, and also Nancy Rothbard's twist on workaholism, both of which are beautifully foreshadowed, Rebecca, by what you just said.

• 20:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah. And I, I put a pin down that we need to talk about consistency over intensity. You don't have a job like yours

• 20:23Adam Grant?

  Yes, please.

• 20:24Brené Brown?

  because you have a big moment that you prepare for, you have the big moments because you prepare for your job every day like you do. And I mean, that's, your badassery, for those of us who study it, is transparent. I, I understand what happens behind the scenes. Like, I can see it.

• 20:44Speaker 00

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• 22:14Speaker 02

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• 22:44Brené Brown?

  I want to take you to a moment before we tie this stuff to more research than Carter's got liver pills, as my grandmother would say. But I want to take you to a moment that I literally got so pissed off reading, I had to set my prep down and walk away. I had to play pickleball for two hours and then come back. I want to take you to the Arsenal Leeds tie in January 2012, and I want you to walk us through that experience.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  Okay, so I was hosting the sideline desk in 2012, me plus two former professional soccer players for ESPN UK. So for a little while, not anymore, ESPN set-up shop in England. So there was an ESPN UK, and I had a four-year contract with them to mainly be a sideline reporter, which I did not like, another story, but also to start to try and do more hosting, because that's really what I wanted to do. So this was a game, Thierry Henry, ironically, who I just spent my summer with, had returned to Arsenal on loan from the New York Red Bulls. And this was his first game back. And it was the, I think, third or fourth round of the FA Cup. Big game, 60,000 people, 2012. So what's that, 14 years ago? ESPN

• 23:57Speaker 05

  UK decided to put my desk with my two ex-pros in front of the Leeds fans. And if anyone knows anything, or if they don't, let me explain. Leeds United, great, wonderful, storied English football club. The away fans, as always with a lot of clubs, very, very vocal, can be quite aggressive at times. Not my favorite, and I've dealt with many, many. Individually, I'm sure they're all great. As a group of 6,000, quite intimidating. And the desk was right slapbang in the middle of these fans, in front of these fans. And from virtually the first moment we went on air, the chanting started, aimed at me,

• 24:38Speaker 05

  sometimes aimed at the two ex-pros next to me, but on the whole aimed at me. Various sexual chanting, things were thrown at me, there were coins, there were hot dogs thrown in my direction. But mainly, it was just about being a female, standing there, doing her job, and all of these awful chanting that just would go on and on and on. Pre-game was an hour, halftime, and then post-game. And my mum was sat at home, and she could hear it was coming through the microphones, because of course, they're all right there. So she was texting me, are you okay? A couple of other people in the industry texting, you're right, we can hear everything. And I think the saddest thing for me, when I

• 25:19Speaker 05

  look back on it, guys, is that it washed over me as much as it... I mean, it wasn't the first time this had all happened. I'd had this for years. Every ground I'd gone to, there was always a chant, or someone shouting out about me, my body, does she do this, does she do that? Or 6,000 of them, all chanting the same thing, while I've got an earpiece in, I'm on live television, I'm trying to do my job. But I think the saddest thing is, when I came off air, one of the ex-pros, Robbie Savage, really lovely guy, he actually put out on Twitter that that wasn't okay tonight, what happened to Rebecca wasn't okay. But that was it. That was it. Nobody else said anything, did anything. I'll never forget that he did that for me. But it didn't, again, it's hard

• 26:03Speaker 05

  for me to blame my bosses, because it never crossed my mind, ever, to go to them afterwards, because it was probably the most loudest ride I've ever experienced, and also other people were now seeing it. It never crossed my mind to go to them and say, hi, sorry, that's not okay. I need some help. We need to think things through a bit better. Is there some security? Is there something we can do? Can we start a campaign? Is there something? But 2012, even though it feels like yesterday, it wasn't. We weren't, no one was starting campaigns for women. It just wasn't a thing. And so I don't really blame them for it. But I also never spoke up. And I suppose when I really think about why didn't I speak up, is probably because I thought it would be futile. There wasn't

• 26:45Speaker 05

  anyone else talking about it. And ultimately, I didn't want to be a problem. I didn't want to be the, because then they might not give me the next game. Because they might not give me the next. So I just took it. So I just took it. And one of the reasons why I left England was that whole toxic environment of English football, which has definitely changed, has definitely changed now, thank goodness. I don't know if it's fully changed, but it has got better, because I've spoken to women who work in the industry. But that was, that was pretty horrible. And now, thinking about it now, it's staggering to me that that was just 14 years ago.

• 27:20Adam Grant?

  First of all, so sorry that you had to go through that. It's, I mean, it's just unacceptable, full stop. Secondly, when our colleagues, Ethan Burris and Jim Dieter study this, they find that in order for people to speak up about a situation like that at work, it has to be both safe and worthwhile. That it's not enough to just take away the fear and say, hey, Rebecca, don't worry, nothing bad is going to happen to you if you raise a concern. You also have to believe that this is not an exercise in futility. And so for me, that is a failure of the leadership in the organization, that they didn't create a situation and a system and a culture where you knew who to go to, you knew what to say, or ideally, right, where leaders were actually intervening before you even had to speak up.

• 28:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. And what's interesting, Adam, though, is I don't even think it bothered them. And not because they weren't great people, because they were great people. But I don't even think they even had a, there wasn't a system in place, there wasn't a person, there wasn't, it was just part of what happens at football to women.

• 28:24Brené Brown?

  No, it's just what happens. It's just, it's like changing, it would be like, what if we play without the ball? Yeah, like, it's that, you know, and I think it's interesting to bring up, because I have to say that some of the allyship that I've experienced, and I talk about this with my husband a lot, some of the allyship that I've experienced, Adam, with you, just because it's an interesting study, us together doing things, because we have similar jobs, similar academic positions, we talk about similar content, and our experiences can be very different. And a lot of times, I'm trying to analyze it, what could I do better? And you're like, basically, fuck that, there's nothing you can do better. We just did the exact same thing, and what you're experiencing is gendered. And I'm like,

• 29:09Brené Brown?

  God, you're right. I forget, you know, because it's just the way, it's the price of doing business sometimes, I think, when you're a woman in an area where there are not a lot of women. And I agree with you, Adam, about putting a system in place. But the problem is that this, putting a system in place requires people to even think that it could be an issue.

• 29:29Brené Brown?

  And I think that's, that's really, do you know what I mean? Like, there has to be some thought that-

• 29:33Speaker 05

  I mean, I, no, you know, you're right, Brené. I, I, I think now, I'm thinking about this World Cup just gone, where I was in amongst the fans, and I didn't have a single problem. And I do think, no, but that, I was in the States, don't forget. And America is, is different. Well, certainly from my experience, when I do fanfests, there are 10,000 people there. I never have a single moment of a problem. When I, when I was at the World Cup and I went out to the semifinals, not a problem, not a single comment, nothing. Now, it's partly because they were all obsessed with Zlatan and Thierry, and no one cared about me. But I do think that when I first arrived in America in 2013, I was like, wow, this is, this is, this is much safer. This is much safer. It's a, definitely a cultural thing, it's not an excuse. It's just, it's definitely, it definitely was a cultural thing. Like I say, it has moved on.

• 30:18Speaker 05

  I do think things are better. I would know now, if I had had a problem this past summer, I know Fox would have had a person, I know who they are already, the people to, that I could have gone to, to make it both safe and worthwhile. And I feel already, now, is that because I'm 45 and I'm established? I don't know how a 25-year-old would feel, which is what I was, or I was 30-odd when this happened. I don't know about that. I know now, I would feel more, much more safe speaking up. Definitely, definitely. But again, is that because I'm older and maybe have more leverage? Let's be honest. I don't know.

• 30:55Brené Brown?

  And can we just, can we just take a break and say, it's people like you who made it safer for younger women coming into the game right now? You, you, you have to say that, you have to like, I hear Erin, our producer in the background going, yes, the father of daughters, like, it, when you're out front on something like this, it, it's pretty, it's pretty hard.

• 31:17Speaker 05

  And you know, that's the positive, you know, and, and I'm fine. I've dealt with all of that, and I am fine. But that makes me so happy that you say that, Brené, because it's very difficult for me to imagine 10-year-old girls out there watching. I have a 10-year-old boy, and so, in a funny way, it's actually just as good that he sees me, isn't it? But when I do have messages on Instagram, or, and I do meet people and they say about their daughters, or I get videos sent of their daughters trying to impersonate me, because it's completely normal to try to impersonate somebody who's been on television, it gives me, and that for me is above everything else, because they are, if they do want to do what I do, I, I think they're, like you say, I think, I do think now, they are in

• 31:57Speaker 05

  such a much safer environment to start to make their travels towards where they want to get to than I was, and than a lot of women in my generation, although there weren't many, were, all those years ago. So if it had to have that, unfortunately, this is the world we live in, if it had to have that, so that now we can have these 10-year-old girls and boys understand that it's normal, oh my gosh, I'm like, my work here is done. I can just, I can just ride off into that sunset, because that is, that is immense for me, immense.

• 32:29Adam Grant?

  That's, that's amazing. I mean, you're a trailblazer, no question. And I'm thinking about some work, one of our former PhD students, Karen Nolton, did on trailblazing. She's now a UT Dallas professor, Brené, so, not, not far from you. But she was looking at what motivates people to become trailblazers, and she found that it's not enough to just know that, you know, your, your group is facing low expectations. You also have to have a sense of belonging or, or identification with your group, to say, like, hey, it's my job to represent women, to open doors for future women. And I'm curious, how much of that was a motivator for you?

• 33:06Speaker 05

  Hmm. Do you know what? I'll be honest, Adam, I'm not sure that it was, because there were, there were just not many women around for us to be, and we had a little group, but there were so few jobs in football in England 25 years ago, that it was difficult to be a sisterhood. We tried, but it was hard, because, as we know, women are very, everybody is very competitive, but women are very competitive, especially in their early years when they're trying to get places. And I wouldn't say that it was very easy to kind of create a sisterhood that I could then try to represent. I felt like it was like, I was trying to, I, I just felt alone.

• 33:49Speaker 05

  I felt alone, the, the few women that were doing the job, kind of doing the job, were untouchable and unreachable, and they were probably protecting their jobs. They didn't want, you know, on the old occasion that I would be in the presence of somebody who had come before me, there wasn't a lot of warmth, because, and I get it now-

• 34:06Brené Brown?

  Me too.

• 34:06Speaker 05

  Because, because I've seen it so many times, and I, and I, and they were just desperate that I wasn't going to take their job, because there's only one job for a woman at this particular, let's say, show. So if I'm suddenly preferred to them, they're out. And now where are they going? Because there's only one job at all of these places for 25 years ago. The trailblazer thing, I haven't really realized. I've just been, I've had to be so focused on, on trying to get somewhere against all the odds over the last 25 years, that really, it's only been since I came to America that I've thought, my gosh, there are actually, and there are girls now that I have met who are 20, who'll say to me, I've been watching you since I was seven. First of all, I'm like, please, could we not with the math? I mean, that is just hideous, absolutely hideous.

• 34:50Speaker 05

  But now they're 20, and I, but I had a, I've had two or three, just in the last week, message me to say, they're now doing broadcast journalism at college, and they want to be a sports broadcaster, and that's because of me. I mean, so it's only really been when I felt safe, really safe in this country, and really supported, and seen as normal, that I've realized that I'm a trailblazer. I suppose is the answer to that, because there just wasn't time before, there just wasn't time.

• 35:18Adam Grant?

  She says reluctantly, I think you need to own it, Rebecca. I think we could take this moment to acknowledge, you have arrived, you have made it. I mean, what an impact to have had, right? That people, there, that there are women now who have chosen different careers because of the work that you did.

• 35:33Speaker 05

  I know, I know. And I'm, and I'm hoping, and I'm, I'm fairly certain, just again, from anecdotally, that even my little boy, who's 10, like, he's out there commentating on his own goals, he's playing, he wants to be a soccer player, but he said to me yesterday, well, maybe if, after I've been a soccer player, Mum, I could be like Thierry and Zlatan. I could sit at the desk and be, and I said, absolutely, absolutely you could. And so, they are, these, and I'm seeing it through my, my son's eyes. He is seeing the people that I've worked with this summer, and he now wants to be them. So those younger, I mean, it's just, it honestly, Adam, it, it honestly blows my mind that somebody could want to do what I do because of me. I'm so grateful, and it honestly, that is, again, my, like, what else could I possibly ask for?

• 36:18Brené Brown?

  It's, I mean, it's, it's just, yeah, it's incredible. I have, okay, I know we want to connect with some research. I have these questions, because I have watched you and diagnosed your skill set through so many games now, that I have to ask you some skills-based questions. Is that okay with you?

• 36:36Speaker 05

  Please, I love it.

• 36:38Brené Brown?

  And, and I don't know, it's like, I did that thing, there was this great episode of Sherlock, where they slowed down a scene to like, just, so I slowed down the scenes when I watch you? Okay.

• 36:50Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 36:51Brené Brown?

  And this is for anyone who is alive. You don't have to be a broadcaster, you don't have to be in sports, you can lead meetings at work, you can be talking to your neighbor. What is the key to a good interruption?

• 37:03Brené Brown?

  When you've got to interrupt people, because like, let's, Erin, let's put up a picture of the people she was at the desk with, when we show this. I mean, can you just talk about your, can you talk about your three co-hosts real quick? Just name them and talk about-

• 37:14Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah, real quick, so, very, three very different people, three absolutely gigantic personalities, the likes of which I don't think I've-

• 37:22Brené Brown?

  Gigantic, y'all.

• 37:22Speaker 05

  Gigantic, Brené, gigantic. I've, I have worked with big, big names. I have never worked with three bigger personalities in three totally different ways, every single day, for hours on end, plus travel, plus meetings, all the things. So once I kind of very quickly tried to learn about the three of them, the interrupting thing is so interesting. I think you have to use it as little as possible, so that when you do it, it has a, it's a bit jarring, because, you know, you are, in my, my opinion, my role is to make them look good. Therefore, I shouldn't need to interrupt them unless I think they can look better.

• 38:00Speaker 05

  So, Zlatan, for example, will answer, sometimes, occasionally, will answer a question with a, with a, with a really big statement, and then I can sense that he's going, he's not building on that statement, and he's going off somewhere. No, no, we need to build on that statement. That's when I'll jump in and say, but what do you mean? Or, tell me more about that, something like that. Okay, so it's, because they, he was first into TV, never done it before. So, that's one thing. In television, you need time to interrupt, because normally, there is not enough time to do anything. I just think you have to use it as a tool, very rarely, and- To get, keep them on track. And if they're a little, if they're a little fence sitting on something, you know, if they're

• 38:43Speaker 05

  a little, we're not, we're not gray area on, on sports TV. We've got to be black or we've got to be white. Like, we've got to get to one or the other. So if Alexi would sort of, I mean, to be fair, Alexi probably wouldn't, but if Thierry would, would sort of slightly, um, hedges bets on something, slightly be, well, I don't know, no, no, I need to know. No, I need to know. Answer the question. I need to know the answer. Um, yes or no? And sometimes it's not really an interruption thing, but something I use sometimes quite a lot is, because I think it has a big impact. And it's kind of interrupty is, right, one word answer, let's go down the line. Are they going to win? Yes or no? Yes, yes, no, whatever it is. And it's bam, bam, bam. And it gives the viewer like, whoa. And so it's not really interruption.

• 39:25Speaker 05

  That's more of a kind of, um, a jab, if you like, of television. I like to call it like a bit of a, a bit of a punch. Um, but in terms of interruptions, to try, I, I try not to do it because I really want them to shine. It's not about, it really isn't about me. One of my biggest pet hates in television is when a host is, in my opinion, makes it about them. I'm literally the traffic cop and those three are the stars and I'm just directing them where to go so that their star can shine as bright as possible. So if I interrupt, I have to make sure it's only to make them even brighter.

• 39:59Brené Brown?

  And then you ended up being the star. Okay, I have to role play this with you. I know, I have to role play. Adam, let's just be, Adam and I, you're gonna, you're gonna interrupt me and Adam and we're gonna go on a little tangent right now and you need to bring us back to the podcast. Go.

• 40:14Adam Grant?

  Well, Brené, so I was actually thinking while Rebecca was talking, she has brilliant skills for doing it in the moment, but I want to know what happens behind the scenes. And I was thinking about Deborah Tannen's research on high involvement versus high politeness cultures. You know this research, right?

• 40:27Brené Brown?

  I do, I do know this, but Rebecca, you have to interrupt, we're role playing here.

• 40:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the moment, you guys are too good.

• 40:33Adam Grant?

  It's fine, this is not a role play, I really want to make this point too, but you should interrupt when you should, whenever you want to. But Brené, what I was thinking about is I have had, when I, when I'm on stage with somebody or doing a podcast with somebody who I know can be long-winded, I will actually tell them about that research upfront and say, hey, like, some people see interruptions as rude. I've come to see them more as a sign of engagement, that I'm so intrigued by what you just said, that I have to jump in and ask a follow-up or give you something else to, and I was so curious about whether Rebecca ever does anything like that. And Brené, I wondered what you thought about that too.

• 41:03Speaker 05

  Brené, do you agree?

• 41:05Brené Brown?

  Okay, I can't because I just got the Rebecca finger and I, I've, I've studied her too much. I know it's coming.

• 41:13Adam Grant?

  I was purposely ignoring it, I was wanting her to do a bigger interruption.

• 41:16Brené Brown?

  No, she doesn't have to. No, she can make those three guys fall to their knees when she goes like this.

• 41:24Adam Grant?

  Yeah. And it immediately forced me to turn the question to you. I couldn't keep talking.

• 41:30Speaker 05

  That's so funny, right? Just get that finger out, guys. Exactly. So that, that, that's me telling you, you need to wrap it up, we need to get to Brené and, and I don't know how you're going to finish, but I'm going to listen to the cadence of your voice and the very second I think you're done with the cadence of your voice, but also the words that you use in that sentence, I'm actually going to jump in and ask Brené whether she agrees because otherwise I have to ask a whole question on what you've just said, which is completely unnecessary. It's not about me, it's about what Brené thinks in that moment. So that's kind of how I would do that. That's so funny, I've never even like addressed any of this, it's just.

• 42:06Adam Grant?

  Brené, did that role play work for your purposes or do we need to do a different one?

• 42:10Brené Brown?

  Oh, no. Like, no, I, Aaron is dying over here. Aaron's taking 75 pages of producer notes. No, because what I saw was she waited until there was an organic pause and then she went and she got the burstiness that she wants from the, the whatever that she called this.

• 42:31Speaker 05

  The punch.

• 42:31Brené Brown?

  The punch. What do you think? And, and I'm like, but I got scared because I saw the finger. And, um, and, and, and you have to understand these guys, I thought they would be, start crying sometimes when they got the finger.

• 42:47Speaker 05

  Stop.

• 42:47Brené Brown?

  No, not in a bad way, just in a like, like, yeah, she's like, our sister's calling it.

• 42:52Adam Grant?

  Principal's office.

• 42:54Speaker 05

  That's so funny.

• 42:55Brené Brown?

  Okay, let me ask you this, this is a weird question. What's one thing that everyone, every leader running a meeting gets wrong that live television would fix in a heartbeat?

• 43:09Speaker 05

  Like, oh, length, length, length, length, length of talking. Stop talking, stop, stop it, enough. Like, people have no, it's true Brené, like, stop. People have no concentration span. And I'm not just talking about Gen Z, I'm talking about nobody, nobody's got it. And we all love the sound of our own voice and we need in a meeting with leaders and whoever's leading that meeting, they need to imagine an internal timer. We need a quick introduction, we need to get to the speakers or the point or the slideshow or whatever it is, we need to do it quickly, we need to efficiently, and television would fix that because I have no time for anything. I have to go to break in 10 seconds and in that 10 seconds I have to find two really

• 43:53Speaker 05

  interesting things to say at the same time as trying to shut Zlatan up because he's trying to take some of my time going to break. And now I'm self-editing what I've got to say because I've now got four seconds because he's still talking over there and his microphone's up. So this, the constraints of live television, I think would fix all of those things. You have to be efficient with what you say.

• 44:13Adam Grant?

  Okay, I have a follow-up.

• 44:14Brené Brown?

  I love her, I just love her.

• 44:15Adam Grant?

  This is so good. There's actually research on the value of putting a timer on display that people, people shorten their talk. And we've, we've used it in some of our internal meetings because a bunch of us read the research and said, fine, we're going to have a meeting, we're putting a two-minute countdown on the Zoom screen. Let's go. But, but there are some people who don't stick to the time and they just keep bloviating and it is.

• 44:37Speaker 05

  Oh, I know about those people.

• 44:40Adam Grant?

  I mean, it's disproportionately men. What do you, what do you do when they don't take the cue? What do you do then?

• 44:48Speaker 05

  You have a conversation after, you put the finger up Brené, you put the finger up, you have a conversation with them after that show, ahead of the next one, to say, guys, we have to stick to the time. You also, I often say to the producers, give me more times in my ear and give them more times because sometimes, I get it, you're in the middle of a point and you don't hear them say 45, as in 45 seconds left, because you're still, you're thinking about what they're thinking about, I get it. But if then very quickly you hear 30, oh, hang on, one of those is going to get through to that person. So more times, the better. And yet it's hard to be, to be given times in your ear, I get that, that's hard, but I would like, I ask for as many times as possible. I mean, I, if you could count me from three minutes to zero, I would take it for an interview or with a, with a panel because I can then structure, self-structure the, you know, sometimes

• 45:32Speaker 05

  they don't give me any times in my ear and they just let us chat. Well, that's great if it's 10 minutes, but if it's three minutes, I have to self-structure the, the chat I'm having based on how much time I have left, based on who's done how much talking and who is owed some seconds, especially if somebody's gone for one minute out of three and I've still got the other two to go. Now, you would think, oh, that's just two minutes each, but then it becomes question, question, question. That's boring. I need question, question, back to you, over to you, maybe a finish from you and a one line from you. That's what I want. So as, as much time as you could have given to you is really important. So I would say you need to have a conversation, you need to be strong and they need to get better because the, taking the time from other people thing is not fair and it's not good and it's not what we should be doing.

• 46:17Speaker 05

  So yeah, interesting, all of that, very interesting.

• 46:20Brené Brown?

  Look, she's got the finger on the drink even. Okay, can I ask an Ashley and Barrett question?

• 46:26Speaker 05

  Please.

• 46:27Brené Brown?

  Okay. Ready? And then we'll, okay, hold on, if I don't ask, I'll get in so much trouble. Okay, let's turn it up. Let's see how this is going to work. This is super like NBC Fox level tech.

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Incredible.

• 46:40Speaker 06

  Hi Rebecca, this is Ashley, the older twin. It's so amazing to watch you on the desk for both the World Cup and the Premier League. And come on, say eh. Anyway, my question for you is, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when you switch from working with the Robbies and Tim to Thierry, Zlatan and Alexi? It's so fun to watch you with both. So I'm just wondering, like, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when changing, working with the personalities? Thanks for all the joy you brought me during the World Cup. Can't wait for the prem to start.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  Ashley, first of all, hi Ashley, how lovely are you? What a great question. The answer is a lot, a lot of, a lot of different things. I'd never met Zlatan before, he'd never done television before. I had met Thierry before, but I'd never done television with him. And I had done television with Alexi, but 14 years ago with ESPN. And as we just discussed a minute ago, 14 years, quite a long time ago. And I couldn't remember too much, other than that I knew he was quite a efficient operator with the, with the mechanisms of television. So I knew he would be my guy. If we needed to get to break, I could go to him last and I knew that he'd finished pretty much, he wouldn't go over his time.

• 47:55Speaker 05

  The biggest differences are Thierry is absolutely set on talking about soccer, soccer and only soccer. He is not interested in whether a coach is being fired. He is not interested in whether a player and another player have had a fight in the dressing room. He ain't interested in the soap opera around the game. He's only interested in tactics and football. And I get that, that's fine. And that's, he's very cerebral when it comes to that. And he wanted to do a tactics breakdown every day because that gave him his fix. So I had to be careful what I asked him, because there were a number of times I would ask him a question, because I'm so used to it, about the narrative, about, do you think, how long has he got left in his job? For example, I didn't ask that, but for example, nope, not answering that Rebecca.

• 48:39Speaker 05

  In fact, one day I said to him on air, and it was very early on, and this was a lesson I said to it, so Thierry, what's in your gut today? Who's going to win and why? Nope, I don't do predictions, I do analysis. He said that live on air. I was like, okay, and that's, that's a slap on the back of my wrist. So that was okay. Note to self, he doesn't do predictions, okay. So I then found ways of getting predictions, people love predictions from the other two. And I'd always say to him, I'm not going to ask you, but I would like to know what the key is to today. So I still had to find a way of asking him. So you have to know what they're comfortable with. So I had to get to know them pretty quickly. With Zlatan, he'd never done television. So with Zlatan, I had to be very conscious of when I came to him, because he would be getting the timings in his ear, talking of timings. We ain't listening to the timings. There're no charts, he's listening to timings.

• 49:23Speaker 05

  First of all, he's Zlatan, he doesn't listen to timings. So I would always make sure, I would always make, make sure, timings listen to Zlatan. I would always make sure that I would go to Zlatan either first or second. But I couldn't often go to him third, and he knows this, I would say this to him, because it would be difficult for him to wrap up. And a couple of times I, it just found out, it just became a situation where he was last and I, I would have to really wrap him up. And he would just say, what are you doing Rebecca? Are you, are you trying to stop me talking? I mean, he would do things on TV that people don't do, you know, pull back the curtain. I'd be like, yes, Zlatan, we've got to go to break now, or we've got, the kickoff is about to happen, so we've got to stop talking here, Zlatan. So it's learning their personalities, but also key for, key for, because Robbie, Robbie and Tim are, have done it for years. Yeah, yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 05

  They make my job very, very, very easy. I still have things with, with them that I have to just manage, different things. But with these three, it was about learning their personalities off the air. So we would always go to, to the green room and watch the games. And there it's like, do you want a cup of tea? Can I get you a cup of tea? And, and, and can I get, shall we have a chat? Or how, how did you feel that pregame went? Or, or as Zlatan would sometimes come up to me and say, do you think that was good? And you would never think that from Zlatan, because he's Zlatan. But from just him saying that to me, do you think that was good pregame? I knew, okay, he A wants to improve, because he wants to be the best. And B, he is asking for feedback without asking for feedback. So I, I would write, okay, that's a green light for me to maybe be a little bit more

• 50:53Speaker 05

  involved with him, maybe give him a little bit more. And, and we had a six week period, and so I had to just not do everything the first week. It's too much the first week, but just slowly ease in, keep, keep encouraging them, keep telling them they're doing a great job, because everyone has egos, of course they do, they're huge personalities, they're massive stars. And then with Alexi, it was making sure that he didn't, he didn't feel like he was in the shadow of the other two, because they were such big personalities. And Alexi's personality off the air, guys, is not the same personality as it is on the air. And he would probably admit that, I'm sure he would, people have talked about it. He's very quiet, he's very reserved off the air, in the green room. So that's another thing. So it's, it's personal attention and you know, it's kind of man management is kind of what it is.

• 51:35Speaker 05

  Both on the air, learning their facial expressions, learning the cadence of their voices and when they're going to stop talking, so I can jump in like we just did. But it's also off the air, man managing them as people, I think is my job as well. And in every commercial break, making sure they know exactly what's happening in the next segment, so that they're comfortable, like we talked about, you have to be comfortable in, in, in live television. It's, it's scary and live TV's scary, especially with the speed at which these sports shows go. So there's, it's like quarterbacking, I suppose. I have a lot of roles and with those three, it was just more intense. So maybe over the 13 years with Robbie, Robbie and Tim, I've done it. But this was, this was Robbie, Robbie and Tim condensed into six weeks, so try and get us somewhere. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was a lot, it was a lot of off camera, lot, lot, lot, lot.

• 52:20Speaker 05

  But they were just so responsive, so respectful, so wonderful and what an honour, what an honour to sit alongside those three. I mean, loved it.

• 52:30Adam Grant?

  Well, but also if you look at the other side of that, what respect it shows on Zlatan's part, early on, that he's coming to you and wanting your feedback, right? That, that says he trusts you, he sees you as a credible source, he wants to learn from you. He doesn't just want to learn and...

• 52:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's true, Adam, yeah, sorry, carry on.

• 52:48Adam Grant?

  No, no, no, no, go ahead.

• 52:50Speaker 05

  I, I just think that that, that really was a big deal for me, because I didn't know him from Adam, I met him from Adam. I met him in the seminar, we had a seminar in March where I did a little panel with him and Thierry and Alexi as a kind of, it was for the Fox employees, but it was almost felt a bit like a dress rehearsal. But you know, we had a few days of rehearsals and, and this is a guy who has a very small inner circle. He, he will say to me, Rebecca, I have a very small, and maybe you'll get in here by the end, but we'll see. He's, he's brutal, the guy doesn't care, he can live his life the way he wants to live his life, he has earned that right. So to have him the very first day he did that, day two, I think it was, or maybe day three, to say to me, were you happy with that? And it was a quiet little moment between us.

• 53:35Speaker 05

  I just thought that showed a humility that people don't give them the credit for, because yeah, he plays up to the camera and he has this huge persona. But I, I thought, wow, okay, so now I have the responsibility that he now trusts me. Okay, so now that's another responsibility. Now I have to, now I have to make sure that that trust is, is reciprocated and I, and I absolutely help him every step of the way. Because as much as people say, as much as the impression he gave off was, oh, I'm so good at TV, I've been here before. I knew, I knew that he wanted to be the best. So that was my job to try and make him the best. And I said to him, you, Zlatan, on day one and Zlatan on day 39 at the World Cup final are going to be so different. And he was like, I know, I know. I said, no, I promise you. And if you look back at him on day one today, it was such a huge trajectory.

• 54:19Speaker 05

  He worked so hard at a lot of things and we all, the producers did too. We all worked hard to make him the star that he absolutely was of that World Cup, in my opinion. And it was, and it was, I mean, again, I get chills, what an honour. This guy is like, he's a mega star in my world, in the world. But in my world, he's a mega star and to have him now as a friend, that's truly, that's truly something.

• 54:42Adam Grant?

  Okay, I have to ask, because this is such a great moment to compare. Brene, what would you have said to Zlatan in that moment when he said, were you happy with that? I, I think it would be so interesting to hear how each, each of us would approach that, all three of us. So Rebecca, don't tell us what you said yet, can we take a minute to reflect? And Rebecca, you also have the chance now, you had to respond in the moment. Now with the benefit of hindsight, how would you approach that? I think is, is fascinating.

• 55:09Brené Brown?

  I don't think I know what I would have said until I, until I got to this place in this podcast, because what I'm hearing as someone who's studied leadership for decades, you're a leader, you're leading a team, you're leading a high performance team, you're getting to know individual members of a high performance team, their strengths, their opportunities for growth. So I think I would have just resorted to my leadership work and I would have said, I really appreciate you asking, here's what I think we did well, here's what I'm curious about, what do you think we did well? What do you think the opportunity for growth is? I think I would have just gone into kind of my leadership of performing teams. Adam, what would you have done?

• 55:47Adam Grant?

  In a rate of reliability, I would have said a version of that. I think I would have gotten to the same thing with different language. But what I was thinking was, it's so interesting that you asked me that, were you happy with it? And then wait for the answer and then say, okay, look, I've actually learned that are you happy with it is the wrong question. It doesn't matter whether it was good or not. The only question I want to consider is, how can we get better together? Let's talk about that.

• 56:12Speaker 05

  That's so interesting. So I didn't do either of those. And I think both of those sound much better than what I did. What I did was, in the context of the six weeks, it was day two. So what I did was just knowing him, because you guys obviously don't know him. So I'm, I have an advantage on that, right? So having known him for 10 days by that point, let's say, I thought he needed just a yes in the moment. I thought he needed a great, it was great. The happy in my ear, the producers were happy, it was great. You, that, that moment, I think I picked out a moment that he did, I said, that I loved. So I picked out a moment, I said, that bit, that was great. And we got our cup of coffee and we sat, and he went, okay, great. And we sat down. So for me, in that moment, that was all I felt I needed to do. But I knew now the door is open.

• 56:57Speaker 05

  Yes. If I can, because these, these ex, these ex athletes can take a lot of criticism because they've been criticized their whole life. I'm married to a former professional footballer and manager. And he's, he's so good, I'm terrible. He's so good at taking criticism. And I've learned that with all the ex pros I've worked with. They are so good at taking constructive feedback. Most human beings are not, but when you've had it your entire life, like they have in their careers, they can do it. So I knew, A, that he would be fine at that, but, but that B, this was a big deal to him. I could just tell from that one question that this World Cup was a big deal for him. So I just thought, we're not there yet. I'm going to have every day with this guy for six weeks. I don't think I need to go too deep right now. And he was getting a coffee, you know, he was kind of, it was a casual, do you think that was okay?

• 57:42Speaker 05

  He was quite casual. I said, I, I thought, let's just not massage the ego, but let's just give him a boost. Tell him it's great. And this was one thing I picked out. And then the doors opened. And then two days later, something happened on air. And he said, what, what happened there? Was that okay? And that's when I said, well, yeah, but you know what I think we should do? And I, I talked him through something. And so it, it, that was only because I knew I had six weeks with him, you know? And then I did more what you guys then talked about just then.

• 58:08Adam Grant?

  Oh, you are so much more patient than I am. I so admire, you played the long game.

• 58:14Brené Brown?

  But I, from a leadership perspective, we talk about this a lot with leaders that it's hard to armchair that question. I, I love that you asked it. It's hard to armchair it because we don't know the full context. But it sounded like in that moment, what we, how we frame this with leaders is you got a permission slip. He handed you a permission slip. And the one thing you never do when you're handed a permission slip as a leader is use as an opportunity for coaching or feedback. The most important thing you can do when someone hands you a permission slip is, is accept it with grace. But you never in that moment go back with feedback. So it sounds like to me, he handed you a permission slip over, and, and they're usually handed in very informal moments.

• 58:59Speaker 05

  Yes, that was it. We were making a coffee. That was exactly it.

• 59:03Brené Brown?

  I have to, I know, this is really hard. I have to play the Barrett question because I will get killed by my sisters.

• 59:09Adam Grant?

  Wait, before you do, can I just react to that really quickly? I, Brene, I love the, thank you for the permission slip, for the permission slip commentary. I, I love the permission slip idea. That's such a great frame. I've never heard it. Where have you been hiding this from me?

• 59:21Brené Brown?

  Well, no, because we, we teach it and dare to lead because a lot of times people will say, oh, my God, I got a permission slip from a reluctant team member. And then I gave them all the coaching and I haven't seen them since.

• 59:30Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 59:32Adam Grant?

  Wow, okay.

• 59:34Speaker 05

  But you know why I think that is? Sorry, Adam, it's the vulnerability that someone is showing when they're giving up. That's it, right? Because he was so vulnerable. If I'd gone, he wasn't in a place yet. At day two, he was not in a place yet for me to go, but you know, when you do this, I would do this or try this. He wasn't there yet. He just wanted to be safe and make sure everything was okay. And that's okay, right?

• 59:55Adam Grant?

  That's exactly, that's exactly where I was going, which is he, he wasn't there yet, I think in two ways. One is your relationship was so new. But two, also, he was a novice at that point. And I was, there's a paper on this. Ilaat Fishbach did this great work on how when somebody's a novice at a task, they crave praise because they're looking for validation that they don't suck and they should keep trying. And then as they move up the competence ladder, they, they don't need as much of the reassurance. And at that point, they want to know, just tell me how I can improve. And you read that perfectly.

• 1:00:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's, it was beautiful. That's leadership. I, and also, I'm also aware that we've got you beyond the 30 minutes or 35 minutes.

• 1:00:37Speaker 05

  Oh, I don't care.

• 1:00:38Brené Brown?

  Are you sure?

• 1:00:39Speaker 05

  100%.

• 1:00:40Brené Brown?

  She would give me the finger, not that finger, but this finger.

• 1:00:43Speaker 05

  I'll give you the finger if I need to give you the finger. No fingers in, no fingers in here, Brené Brown, no fingers.

• 1:00:48Brené Brown?

  I will do Barrett's question, then we'll go to rapid fire. Adam, does that sound good?

• 1:00:51Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Brené Brown?

  And then in our post-game debrief, we can get into the research. Okay, let me play Barrett. These are twins. It's very hectic for me as the oldest sister, if I don't get both of them.

• 1:00:59Speaker 05

  I'm sure.

• 1:01:00Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:01:03Speaker 07

  Hi, Rebecca, this is Barrett. I'm the youngest sister. Obviously, they say for the best, for last. Thank you for guiding us through the World Cup. You are so impressive on the desk and we're so grateful. My question for you is, your calm is so contagious, whether it's on the desk for the Premier League or the World Cup. When your co-hosts get rowdy, how do you create the calm necessary to move forward? Thank you.

• 1:01:28Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh. Barrett, what a question. Do you know, I'm not sure 100% I know the answer to that. I think, I, how do I create the calm? I think I know that the alternative is panic. And panic on live television is going to end my career and most other people's career. So I'm very aware of my responsibility as a host to be the vessel of calm, no matter what. Because I think that watching television, you, as a viewer, you need, you, we keep going back to sort of feeling safe in all different ways, but you need to feel comfortable. I personally think, I'm not sure feeling uncomfortable watching television is a great experience,

• 1:02:13Speaker 05

  unless you're watching the World Cup and there's actual footballers, that's different. But studio shows, that show that I do, it's, it's comfortable but engaged, comfortable but engaged. It would, it's so important to me to remain calm. It's so important because I think that the minute you don't, you lose, you lose everything. You lose your credibility, you lose your presence, your breath, everything. So I think I'm, I think it's a really difficult question to answer because I think it's more of a reflex action, actually. And the reflex action is, I think, stems from a responsibility that this, I feel, is my show. I don't mean it's about me, but it's my show. It's my responsibility to get from A to B.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  They can be as chaotic as they want, but I have, I'm like the, I'm like the pilot of an aeroplane. You can be running around the plane as long as we take off and land. That's kind of how, so I think it's a reflex action.

• 1:03:11Brené Brown?

  Okay, so can I, can I share some feedback with you?

• 1:03:14Speaker 05

  Please.

• 1:03:15Brené Brown?

  Okay, this was such a loaded question from Barrett because we've analyzed you on the desk. Because we teach calm as a leadership skill. You are amazing at this. So I will tell you specifically the behaviors I observe when the desk gets crazy.

• 1:03:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, please.

• 1:03:34Brené Brown?

  Okay, you never match tone or speed of conversation when people get out of hand. You go quieter and slower and they model what you're doing. You never, you, and it's, it's, it's what we try to teach leaders. Literally, I was going to ask Erin to clip stuff for me that I can show when I teach leaders. Because when they get worked up, you do exactly what is difficult to teach people, but is a teachable skill where you will literally at the desk like this. So what I'm wondering, and then, and then they match you in speed, loudness and tone.

• 1:04:18Brené Brown?

  So you use your entire presence as this calm barometer at the desk. You never match anxious, rambunctious energy. And that's very hard because anxiety is the most contagious affect in this, in the whole ocean of affects. Calm is also contagious, but you deploy it so strategically, it's crazy to watch.

• 1:04:45Speaker 05

  Wow, wow. No one has ever analyzed what I do ever. So to hear that back is kind of an out of body experience. And I didn't even, I'm not even a hundred percent sure I knew I did that consciously. I don't know if I did know consciously I'm doing that. I just think I'm so aware that I have responsibility. I can't get out of hand.

• 1:05:07Brené Brown?

  No.

• 1:05:07Speaker 05

  I can't get out of hand because then where do we go? Then who's saving this shit? And also, I also think that maybe I'm now trying to reflect on why I do that. Maybe if I go up with speed, with volume, with rambunctiousness, again, the spotlight comes to me because then I'm part of that. And I'm, and I'm so, so, so imploring the people who do my job to not be a part of that, because that's what they get paid to do. And if they want to be rambunctious, that can be great TV, no problem. But that's not what I'm paid to do. So I think maybe that is just so ingrained in my brain is my, my overall work belief

• 1:05:48Speaker 05

  that I am the, the pilot, not part of the show, that maybe that's why I do it. It's hard to know. But hearing you say that is so interesting to me. Now I'm going to be like, I'm going to be conscious of it in a few weeks.

• 1:06:00Brené Brown?

  No, no, no, don't do that.

• 1:06:01Speaker 05

  I'm excited.

• 1:06:02Adam Grant?

  We like the unconscious confidence there.

• 1:06:04Speaker 05

  Okay, okay.

• 1:06:05Adam Grant?

  I, I, I am, I'm struck by how generalizable a skill that is, right? This is not just something you do in high voltage TV. This is something that, that's taught in conflict mediation training, where the instinct is to mirror, because you want to show the other person you're with them. But just like Brene was describing, you have to do the opposite. And what you have to show them is that an alternate way of engaging is possible. And all of a sudden, like, they're, they're running into this, this very calm, peaceful force. And they realize that they're, they're kind of flying off the handle and it feels inappropriate when the contrast is, is so stark. And you, you just do that so masterfully.

• 1:06:42Speaker 05

  Thank you, Adam. Thank you both. That is, wow, what a joy. Thank you for all of that. That is fascinating to hear and really, really lovely. Thank you.

• 1:06:52Brené Brown?

  Is it weird that we watch film on you like footballers watch film on the pitch?

• 1:06:56Speaker 05

  Do you know what? It's never crossed my mind that somebody would be doing that. But yet I've done that. I watch hosts with an eagle eye, even now, of course, now I'm still trying to get better, but have always done. So I suppose of course, no, it's not. I just can't believe people do that to me. It's just crazy.

• 1:07:13Brené Brown?

  There's a lot to learn.

• 1:07:14Adam Grant?

  Yeah. You are a game tape.

• 1:07:16Brené Brown?

  You're a game tape. Okay, fast lightning round. I'm going to give the Rebecca finger.

• 1:07:22Speaker 05

  Okay, feel free.

• 1:07:24Brené Brown?

  One thing you're deeply curious about right now.

• 1:07:27Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh. The first thing that springs to mind is the kind of teenager my son's going to be. He's 10. And we are heading into it. And I'm, I am so deeply curious which way we're going to go. Not that there are more, there are more than two ways, but like, don't know. I just feel like, is he going to be the teenager that, that certain other boys I've seen are? Or is he going to be like his half brother who was a really like, he didn't really change. I'm kind of really curious about that.

• 1:08:00Brené Brown?

  So fun to watch. So fun to learn.

• 1:08:03Speaker 05

  What a joy. Yeah.

• 1:08:04Adam Grant?

  You're going to take your, your future teenager into the wildest, wackiest curiosity shop that you've ever seen. What are you putting in that shop? It can have anything in it.

• 1:08:15Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:08:17Brené Brown?

  You can give us one item that it wouldn't be a curiosity shop without. One thing that would have to be in there.

• 1:08:25Speaker 05

  And can, does it have to be a real thing? Like, does it have to be? Okay. So, so we both, my future teenager and I would definitely like the, a full explanation, a book, maybe, maybe, maybe a slideshow explanation about what the hell is out there in space? And when does it end? And why does it end? And how does it end? Because nothing ever ends. And we talk about it a lot. And we would like the explanation, please. And I would like it in layman's terms. And I would like a full explanation. And I would like proof. And I would like all of that.

• 1:09:00Adam Grant?

  Do you follow Cleo Abram?

• 1:09:02Speaker 05

  No, but now I should, right?

• 1:09:04Adam Grant?

  Huge if true. Follow immediately.

• 1:09:06Speaker 05

  Okay. Love it. Okay, great.

• 1:09:09Brené Brown?

  One thing you're deeply grateful for right now?

• 1:09:12Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh, that is a hundred percent my, my own health. Just put myself in for a colonoscopy. Just thought I'd just drop that in there because we've got to do these things. Right? Had a mammogram on Monday. Let's go.

• 1:09:23Brené Brown?

  Big girl panty time, folks.

• 1:09:25Speaker 05

  Right. Quite literally with a colonoscopy. So we, we got that coming up. My husband is healthy. My son is healthy and happy and everyone is happy. And, and it's one of those, you know, and I, and I've, I recently had a friend of a friend who's diagnosed with breast cancer. And again, and it happens so often, doesn't it? And again, I come back to gratitude of health, gratitude of health. That's all I care about. We've got to get these things done. We've got to get our tests done. Everybody out there, men and women, and we've just got to remain as healthy as we possibly can. Because my goodness, it can all finish. So that is what I'm most grateful for right now.

• 1:09:57Adam Grant?

  On our, that's on our list every week. Okay, last one, Rebecca, I have to ask you this. So last week, Brene and I were talking about withdrawal and how we missed the World Cup intensely. So, good news is, the Women's World Cup is around the corner. What are you most excited about for that?

• 1:10:17Speaker 05

  I'm most excited for, I've just got an image in my head of this country again. First of all, the US Women's National Team are really good. They are really good. So I'm very, very certain that they will go further than the men's national team. And so the, the, the love affair that this country has now with football is going to be a longer love affair. And it's going to go further than even it was this summer with the US men. The manager of the US Women's National Team, Emma Hayes, is a Brit and she is off the charts good. I know, right? I mean, what a legend. So I feel like that is what I'm most excited for, to compound the love affair that is happening right now with this sport.

• 1:11:01Speaker 05

  We're going to do it again next summer in a beautiful setting in Brazil and ahead of the 2031 World Cup, Women's World Cup, which is in the United States. So I'm excited really for this trajectory, that this sport that I have loved my whole life and is now on, to simply continue and to let the girls have a go.

• 1:11:23Brené Brown?

  Let's go. Rebecca, just, thank you so much for saying yes. Thank you for doing a, I love it because I make up, I operate from the similar thing. It's either a hell yes or it's a no at this point. So thank you for making us a heck yes.

• 1:11:38Speaker 05

  Oh, I got to tell you guys, at the moment, at the moment, you're the only hell yes I've done. So everyone else has been another, and you have come flying through. This has been such an honor, such a privilege. Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed it so much. I've never had questions like the ones you've asked me. And it's been so wonderful just to take a moment to reflect on everything that you've asked me about. And I'm just so grateful. Thank you.

• 1:12:02Adam Grant?

  We only got through a fraction of them.

• 1:12:04Brené Brown?

  I know.

• 1:12:05Speaker 05

  I know.

• 1:12:06Brené Brown?

  We have like 30 more. Yeah. Because it's just, you know, when you watch film on a person who's as skilled as you are, there's a lot that we, but just know this, I will be showing clips of you to teams of senior leaders about how to, how to calm shit down when the, when the going gets hard. So thank you for what you do. And thank you for bringing so much joy and honesty to everything.

• 1:12:25Adam Grant?

  Same.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  Thank you, guys. And also send my love to Ashley and Barrett. Thank you for their questions.

• 1:12:30Brené Brown?

  Oh, they're getting, oh my God, I'm never going to hear the end of it. They'll be, they'll be wearing Rebecca Lo t-shirts tomorrow. So, okay.

• 1:12:36Speaker 05

  I love it. Thank you, guys. Thanks, Adam.

• 1:12:40Adam Grant?

  Thank you.

• 1:12:41Speaker 05

  You too. Bye.

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• 1:14:46Brené Brown?

  Woo, what did you think about my girl Rebecca Lo?

• 1:14:48Adam Grant?

  Oh, my gosh, what a rock star. So good. So good, so thoughtful, so insightful. I mean, we always admire star performers and then the open question is, can they talk about what they do? And she's as good at analyzing what she does as she is at doing it. That's not fair.

• 1:15:06Brené Brown?

  It's not fair. And what's, what's really, it's interesting because I think this, maybe, maybe there is a study that you know about, that you can tell all of us about, but sometimes I think that those of us who had a circuitous path picked up things along the way, very specific skillsets and mindsets, that we don't even understand, underlie our success at what we're doing now. Like for me, for example, bartending, I'm not kidding you, for nine years. Like, I learned more about empathy and storytelling, bartending than I could ever learn in classes on empathic strategy.

• 1:15:50Brené Brown?

  You know, and then I think sometimes when I, when I heard her talking, I was so excited to talk to you about it because she has a masterful skillset. Would you agree?

• 1:16:01Adam Grant?

  Oh, I mean, strong agreement. I was thinking about David Epstein's book Range just now when you were, when you were talking.

• 1:16:08Brené Brown?

  Wow, interesting.

• 1:16:09Adam Grant?

  Which is full of evidence on the value of taking those detours and doing side quests and having either, you know, a second career or a hobby that's really different from your job. Because you're right, there's so much learning and also confidence that comes from doing those things. For me, performing as a magician is where I picked up some of the skills I use in the classroom and on stage. I didn't know that was going to be relevant, but how to deal with a heckler, like how to like set up the element of surprise for an audience, that was huge. I never would have told somebody to do it.

• 1:16:42Brené Brown?

  God, I'm really, yes. And I'm thinking also, when I've had a hard time since we've known each other before, you've drawn a parallel between being a diver and getting the twisties. And like, and, and there was nothing that, it was probably anxiety for me, but when you describe the twisties, that's how I felt emotionally or mentally. And, and so it's like, it's always surprising to me that the, the breadth of things we draw on that make us good at what we do and the danger of thinking, when you think, talk about the book Range, the danger of, you know, even look at me growing up, I played seven sports and sucked at six and a half of them.

• 1:17:27Brené Brown?

  You know what I mean? Like, but today I'm surrounded by parents who pick a sport for their three-year-old and then that's the only thing they can play. And then they've got club coaches that say, if you try to play anything else, you're off the team. And it's just, I don't know, bartending, you know, the only job I ever got fired from was cleaning houses. I just want to tell you this, don't use pledge on the floor, even if it makes it shinier, because someone will break their tailbone and fire you. But I don't know, it's just the fact that she, you know, because she was, studied drama, it gave her a leg up as a sports broadcaster because she could memorize direct-to-camera stuff, you know, like, I don't know. And I don't know, it's just interesting to me.

• 1:18:12Brené Brown?

  I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm interested by it.

• 1:18:15Adam Grant?

  Oh, I think, I think it's, it's another reminder that, that success is a squiggly line, not a straight line. And we have so many people trying to track their kids, like for the shortest path to success, as opposed to saying they need to accumulate a bunch of interesting experiences that will teach them unexpected skills. And that's the only way they're going to approach the thing that everybody's doing one way, a different way.

• 1:18:39Brené Brown?

  God, I really love that. Okay, what's one thing you learned from Rebecca that surprised you?

• 1:18:44Adam Grant?

  Okay, so first thing is, when, when we were talking about preparedness earlier, I was thinking about this, this great study by Xiaoping Chen and her colleagues, where they look at entrepreneurs doing pitches and they compare entrepreneurial passion versus entrepreneurial preparedness to ask who's going to get funded. And the finding is that preparedness beats passion, that, that investors, they don't care whether you're doing a song and dance, they don't care whether you're, you know, fired up. What they're looking for is what is actually the real cue of passion, not the enthusiasm you show, but whether you've done your homework, you know your numbers, you've figured out all the different like parameters that might affect whether your idea is going to work

• 1:19:27Adam Grant?

  or not, you've pre-mortimed yourself essentially. And I was just thinking, I was thinking of Rebecca, like her preparedness is where the passion comes through.

• 1:19:36Brené Brown?

  I think that's so, I think that's so beautiful. You know how I feel about preparedness? I don't ever have to be, nor am I ever the smartest person in the room, but I am definitely in the running for the most prepared person in the room 99% of the time. And I don't prepare out of fear. I prepare out of respect and love for myself and the other people in the room. But I am such a fan of preparedness that, that research, I, because here's the thing, even with students, because I do all group projects, so if I have a group of MBA students presenting, I love an enthusiastic, I love an enthusiastic presentation.

• 1:20:20Brené Brown?

  You're going to get a really bad grade if your preparedness doesn't match it. If you've got a really prepared piece for this, for me in the class, and it's, doesn't have a lot of entertainment value, you're going to get a good grade.

• 1:20:34Adam Grant?

  As it should be. Nicely done.

• 1:20:36Brené Brown?

  I'll go to the movies to get, you know, I'll go see The Odyssey for entertainment. I, I need you to be able to answer all my questions and demonstrate anticipatory thinking and care.

• 1:20:46Adam Grant?

  Same. Okay, second piece of research. So my colleague Nancy Rothbard studied workaholism. And I think in the traditional workaholism literature, there was the, the common finding that, you know, it's, it's a, it's basically a risk factor for stress, for, you know, burnout, for also physical health problems. And Nancy said, not so fast, not so fast, because there's a difference between being a compulsive workaholic, who works all the time because you feel pressure and guilt and anxiety and shame if you're not working, and an engaged workaholic, where you love what you do or you care about what you do. And she sure enough found that only compulsive workaholics experience the costs, not the engaged ones.

• 1:21:27Adam Grant?

  And I, I felt like Rebecca was narrating her life is engaged workaholism, like not socializing, not going out. She loves soccer, she cares deeply about her job, she wants to do the best job she can. And I related to that personally, I imagine you do too, but I was curious to hear your take.

• 1:21:43Brené Brown?

  Okay, so I, I, I love this. You know, as a grounded theory researcher and someone that leans heavily into linguistics, I don't like that we're adding adjectives to workaholism to say whether it's good or bad, because as also a sober person for 30 years, I just don't think we should, I think we should change the construct when it moves from an addiction-based issue to something else. So I think, I wish the research said, there's workaholism that's driven by not enough worthiness, fear, shame, those kind of things. And then there's this new construct called this, which can appear similarly to, you know, in a similar way, but is actually motivated.

• 1:22:25Brené Brown?

  That's why I was very careful when I talked about, I prepare not out of fear or shame or not enoughness. All the, because there have been times in my life where I was there, but I prepare out of a love of mastery and respect for people's time. So I agree with the research and the finding, I think the labeling of constructs is super important and I, I take issue there a little bit.

• 1:22:49Adam Grant?

  Interesting. So you would, you would prefer to, you see the dynamic, but you would prefer to call it something like just compulsion versus engagement?

• 1:22:58Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's just like saying there's, to me, the, the way I write, I've, I've written about this before, is we don't say there's starvation and healthy starvation.

• 1:23:09Adam Grant?

  Right.

• 1:23:09Brené Brown?

  The construct on its own, no adjective can change emotionally or tied to the word. Or I think when you get into the addiction literature, workahol, work is just one of many substances we use to do the same kind of thing.

• 1:23:25Adam Grant?

  That makes perfect sense. You know what's so interesting about that is in, in, in changing the emotional tone and clarifying the meaning, we lose the paradox, like which you normally love. Like engaged workaholic is a paradox.

• 1:23:40Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I just, I just think for the, me, the construct is bankrupt.

• 1:23:43Adam Grant?

  Yep, understood.

• 1:23:44Brené Brown?

  I just think that, like, like, for example, exercise addiction, but good exercise addiction. No, no, no, let's, let's call it something else. Like, you know, I, I don't, and it could be my recovery perspective, so I don't know.

• 1:23:58Adam Grant?

  No, I like, I like your perspective and I think what it's, okay, I have a better analogy now. What you're looking for is, okay, we have stress, we're not going to start talking about good stress, we're going to name a different term, eustress. Eustress.

• 1:24:10Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 1:24:11Adam Grant?

  That, that's what you're looking for.

• 1:24:13Brené Brown?

  And here's another one that I like, and I, I would privilege the, the construct emotional resonance over the paradox, which I love.

• 1:24:22Adam Grant?

  Yep.

• 1:24:22Brené Brown?

  Perfectionism versus healthy striving.

• 1:24:25Adam Grant?

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 1:24:28Brené Brown?

  Does that make sense?

• 1:24:29Adam Grant?

  Yeah, I've never, I've never liked in that literature perfectionistic concerns versus perfectionistic striving.

• 1:24:34Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 1:24:34Adam Grant?

  No, no, one is perfectionism, that's maladaptive, the other is the pursuit of excellence, that's adaptive.

• 1:24:40Brené Brown?

  That's adaptive, right. So I think it is, I think you just named the fulcrum word for me, adaptive versus maladaptive. And I think adding adjectives to maladaptive terms.

• 1:24:53Adam Grant?

  It's muddying.

• 1:24:54Brené Brown?

  It's muddying, that's all.

• 1:24:55Adam Grant?

  Yep.

• 1:24:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:56Adam Grant?

  I think that's, that's really good. I like it. Okay, I have a joke for you. It's my, I had to get in on the sister game.

• 1:25:02Brené Brown?

  Oh, I love it, go.

• 1:25:03Adam Grant?

  Because your sisters participated and when we were talking about interruptions, I was reminded of my sister's favorite joke. Tell me if you've heard this one.

• 1:25:11Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:25:11Adam Grant?

  You ready?

• 1:25:12Brené Brown?

  I'm so scared.

• 1:25:14Adam Grant?

  Knock, knock.

• 1:25:15Brené Brown?

  Who's there?

• 1:25:16Adam Grant?

  Interrupting cow.

• 1:25:18Brené Brown?

  Interrupting cow, who?

• 1:25:19Adam Grant?

  Moo, moo, moo. Moo.

• 1:25:23Brené Brown?

  It's worse than I thought.

• 1:25:25Adam Grant?

  Yeah, it is, is it?

• 1:25:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Do what? Oh, my God, yeah, Aaron's, Aaron, our producer, is saying, and how old is Parker? 12, yeah. Aaron told Parker that last night. Okay, that is funny. It was as bad as I thought.

• 1:25:41Adam Grant?

  Yeah, I thought so.

• 1:25:43Brené Brown?

  It's really good, though, it should stay in here, just, yeah. The Grant family jokes keep them coming. Ashley and Barrett would have just killed me had I not included their questions. Okay, I'll see you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

• 1:26:05Adam Grant?

  We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

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