Pod Insights Happy Place Naomi Watts talks menopause: “Women grin and bear it” About this episode Actor Naomi Watts went through early menopause at 36. She was experiencing symptoms she couldn’t explain, like itchy skin, night sweats, and anxiety, but struggled to find any real information or stories about this midlife transition.
In this chat with Fearne, Naomi explains why she’s become passionate about shining a spotlight on previously taboo topics like fertility, menopause, and sex. She talks about how it felt to be told she was peri-menopausal while she was in the middle of her fertility journey, and how she’s changed her lifestyle to help manage her symptoms.
Fearne and Naomi chat about the way women are told that simply being a woman means you have to suffer and your body will be a place of pain. How can we re-write the narrative to celebrate the beauty of our bodies and cycles?
Plus, how to fight back against the ingrained idea that older women aren’t of great use or value to society...
Naomi’s book, Dare I Say It, is published by Happy Place Books and it’s out now.
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Transcript 8,222 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
0:28 Fearne Cotton? Hello, I'm Fern Cossen and this is A Happy Place, the show that knows there's great comfort in seeing yourself reflected in other people's stories. Today, I'm chatting to Naomi Watts.
0:40 Speaker 02 As a woman in peri or menopause, it's going to lead to a whole lot of other things like anxiety, depression, memory blips, you know, in the most inconvenient ways. You could be standing in front of a boardroom of men, holding a meeting and suddenly you've lost the word or the sentence has gone, you know, it's very humiliating and can create a whole lot of anxiety. And so, half the population's going to go through this. The chances are, this story, my story, might be your story too.
1:10 Fearne Cotton? Gang, how are you? I'm hanging out my arse, I'm not going to lie. My kids have been sort of tag-teaming illness for about 10 days. I know loads of you are going through the same thing. Bugs galore, going around everywhere. I had my daughter in the bed with me last night, quite literally coughing up phlegm in bed, which was delightful. I don't think I've had a solid night's sleep in two weeks, so I'm a bit delirious. Powered by coffee and a lot of chocolate buttons at the moment, that is my snack of choice, but whatever it takes to get you through, right? But I think we're coming out the other side. They both went back into school today and I did do a little skip after the school run because I was so...
1:55 Fearne Cotton? Joyful and relieved. Um, if you're in the same boat, you've got this. God, it's bloody hard. The juggle is real. Let's talk about Naomi Watts, who is a legend. You'll know Naomi from films like The Ring, Birdman, King Kong. But what you might not know is that at 36, at the height of her fame, she suddenly started experiencing symptoms she couldn't explain. Itchy skin, night sweats, anxiety. It turns out she was going through early menopause. And given she seriously struggled to find any real information or stories about this midlife transition, she decided to bring it out of the shadows herself by founding a company helping women navigate menopause and by writing a bloody great book, which is
2:37 Fearne Cotton? out now called Dare I Say It. And I'm unbelievably proud to say that Dare I Say It is published by Happy Place Books. This book is genius from cover to back page. The front cover is iconic, quite frankly. It's just genius. And it's a bloody helpful book that is so honest and frank, not only just for a Hollywood star, but just for any human, and full of funny anecdotes and brilliant, brilliant advice and scientific study in there as well. I chatted to Naomi recently, well, just last week, actually, remotely. Oh, we chatted about so much. Um, we talked about confusion and misinformation and the lack of awareness around early menopause. We also looked at the idea that women are told that if you're
3:22 Fearne Cotton? a woman, you will suffer, just inherently by being a woman, and be in pain quite often, which keeps us all very quiet about it because we just have to truck on and we're all quite used to trucking on. That's not good, is it? It's not good enough. We also talked about the insidious feeling in society that older women aren't of great use or value. And I could get quite bloody ranty about that one because the absolute direct opposite is true. Older women have so much experience, wisdom, storytelling, and everything else to share.
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5:15 Fearne Cotton? Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.
5:38 Fearne Cotton? Hi Naomi, how are you?
5:40 Speaker 02 I'm good. I'm just going to take my earrings off because I can hear them banging on my headphones and that might be something annoying that you have to deal with too, so.
5:49 Fearne Cotton? It's so nice to see you and first of all, congrats on this brilliant book. Which I bloody loved. Not only did I love it, but I'm extremely proud that Happy Place Books is publishing it in the UK. I'm over the moon about that.
6:03 Speaker 02 Yay.
6:03 Fearne Cotton? So happy about it.
6:05 Speaker 02 Oh, good.
6:05 Fearne Cotton? And the front cover.
6:06 Speaker 02 Do you like it?
6:07 Fearne Cotton? I love it.
6:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:09 Fearne Cotton? It's awesome.
6:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, I wanted it to be bold and it turns out that the old megaphone or bullhorn or whatever you call it, it's sort of symbolic in my life and consciously or not, it ended up on the cover of my book. But, you know, in David Lynch's passing, which just took place last week, I was reminded so much of his use of a megaphone all throughout his career. He would be on the set and even if you were three feet in front of him, he would still speak with his megaphone. So it's clearly in me that, as a symbolic thing.
6:50 Fearne Cotton? Hmm.
6:51 Speaker 02 And I conjured it and it's ended up in my book. And I didn't, me, it just happened. I only thought of it as a connection as the other day when I heard the news.
7:03 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I'm so sorry to hear about the passing. I mean, he's such a great friend of yours and obviously you work closely with him. He did that beautiful tribute online. It's just rough, isn't it? And it's hard to comprehend when someone's not here anymore. It's very odd.
7:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, grief is a difficult thing and another kind of conversation that needs to develop further, I think. We need to understand it better, prepare for it better. But yeah, it was a very, very sad thing. But I am comforted by the joy, the outpouring of love people experienced through him, with him, and his humour. It just created so much joy in so many of us. So that's quite healing. Every time you feel yourself falling to pieces, you find yourself laughing at some piece of footage that arrives in your feed, you know, and just you laugh.
8:00 Speaker 02 Because he had a really, really fantastic life and affected many of us.
8:04 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, an extraordinary man, extraordinary man. Well, we love the megaphone and we love the front cover. But more importantly. I love the contents and I'll tell you, oh, there's many reasons why I love it. But one of them is actors of your calibre traditionally are sort of, I guess they, they make themselves seem otherworldly, almost inhuman, like they would not have any human bodily functions because they're sort of shiny Hollywood people over here. I sort of can't imagine Brad Pitt taking a shit kind of thing. But here you are, talking about something so human and relatable and really bloody helpful. And it feels like reading every word in this book, it seemingly poured out of you
8:47 Fearne Cotton? and is something that, it's almost like the book wrote itself, like this was already in you. You needed to get this out of you and into the wider world.
8:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I did oscillate back and forth, you know, should I do this or not? In fact, the idea came to me because I wished there was such a book. I had a real need because menopause hit me at such a young age, when I was completely uneducated, completely at sea with no community, not knowing how to talk to doctors, doctors not really having a lot to say about it, symptoms going undiagnosed. And I said to a friend one day, God, there should be a book. I wish there was a book that's some kind of guide to, to make it, you know, a little less horrific
9:37 Speaker 02 and maybe some fun there, you know, like it's not the end. And my friend said, well, you should write that book. And I was like, ah, no, no, no, no, no way. And I'm an actor, not a writer. And you can't be saying that stuff out loud. God, no. So it took me, you know, that was a good 10 years ago. But so that when you say it came pouring out of me, eventually it did. But it took a long time to get to that and a lot of experiences to go through, a lot of knowledge to learn, people to speak to and, and get their expertise and fear to move through.
10:21 Speaker 02 Like I tested the waters here and there first within my friend groups. And quite instantly, I was told by my friends, oh, don't be silly. You're too young to be in menopause, you know, or. You know, if I made a joke about an estrogen dip or something, that that was like, oh, don't be silly. You know, so I got so many versions of no, I'm not willing to talk about it. No, that's not my experience. You know, so I would retreat further and further into myself. And it just finally got too exhausting to carry that secret, that burden.
10:59 Speaker 02 And I just went, fuck it. Um, you know, if you, if it spooks you, that's a bummer, but I need to do it for myself. Half the population is going to go through this. The chances are this story, my story might be your story too. Um, or a version of that can be tapped into through this, you know, through learning about mine.
11:20 Fearne Cotton? You were also pretty much actively warned that talking about menopause or age in the context of Hollywood would be career suicide, but thank God you mitigated that and went still doing it.
11:33 Speaker 02 Yeah. And again, I, I slowly did it. I, I created a company for skincare from scalp to vag. And um, that was, I gently moved through that. I did not think that I would be the woman out there talking about, you know, vagina over and over again, vaginas, you know, but you can't do this in half measures. You've got to just, just blow through all of the, the awkwardness of it in the hope that it will be of service to others.
12:04 Fearne Cotton? I mean, we're, we're so awkward talking about sexual health, vaginas, like we're so, and you know, we're, we're older women. And, and we're still like, oh, vagina, you know, it's kind of this awkward thing. And it's like, oh my God, we need to just. I mean, I'm sure there are younger generations who are naturally feeling slightly more comfortable talking about this stuff, but I think.
12:22 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
12:22 Fearne Cotton? Our generations, we're sort of like, oh, it's awkward.
12:26 Speaker 02 Yes. And our mothers' generation, um, I, I, and, and not too thrilled with it either because they had to suffer through. Um, so it's interesting. Some are like, yeah, wow, that's fantastic. You did it. And some are like, really? Do you really need to do that? Or I sailed through it. It was fine. What are you all carrying on about? It's interesting. It, it, it does bring up intergenerational stories, but I think the millennials who are just edging into menopause now or perimenopause are grateful. And I think the generation behind them are going to be as well, like. The the ice is broken. We're much more free to talk about it. And and so obviously,
13:08 Speaker 02 research, funding, education is all going to be for the better.
13:12 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I mean, I am peak demographic because my mum, my mum sort of normally with anything goes, I don't remember, don't know, don't, I don't remember. Like, oh, mum, what about childbirth? I don't remember, I don't remember. She's literally told me nothing. But then she did say not long ago that she went through menopause at 42. I am now past that age and have slightly buried my head in the sand, like many of my friends, and just gone la la la, I'm not thinking, I don't want to think about it. Is that a symptom? Is it not? I'm not really paying any of it, any attention. So this came to me at the exact right time. I needed this for not only the anecdotal reassurance, but also the the deep dive stats you've got in there and and looking at misinformation
13:55 Fearne Cotton? and and skirting around that and getting to the the crux of things. It's something that we're still, I think, you know, certainly me and my friends are just feeling a bit lost in and unsure about. And like you say, it's going to happen to half the population. And it and it can be a pretty major thing. I mean, you started getting symptoms at 36. And I mean, this was a really tricky time for you because you were
14:19 Speaker 02 Even before, but they were discounted. Like, I remember every movie we do as actors, we have to tick a list of questions for the medical and insurance purposes. And I would always tick night sweats. I knew that my periods were becoming irregular, closer together, much lighter. Didn't know that that meant menopause. I did have a conversation with my mum about menopause long, long ago. And she had told me that she went in at 45. I didn't know any other detail around it. Didn't know she had a multitude of symptoms and for a great number of years. So, yeah, that and and when I got that diagnosis or semi diagnosis, when I write at the precipice, when I was trying to take
15:04 Speaker 02 Trying to get pregnant and my doctor said, well, the reason you're not is probably because you're close to menopause, these blood results are suggesting as such. And I was like, what? I remember forty five for my mum, I'm thirty six. And I called her right away and I said, why didn't you tell me more? And she said, well, these were the conversations I didn't have with you because my mother never had them with me. So no blame to her. It's just, you know, that was the societal message that women must, you know, zip it and grin and bear it.
15:36 Fearne Cotton? Well, I mean, you talk about this in the book, that there is perhaps this sort of subconscious undercurrent understanding that women just will suffer from the moment we start our periods until, until the end of time, there is, there is suffering and pain and this monthly cycle that rules so much of our lives that, that therefore you do just troop on and you get through it. And that is one of the factors as to why we haven't talked about it and why it's a really new conversation. I mean, here in the UK, I'd say maybe in the last five years, I've been aware of this conversation really, you know, creating a bit of a furor and an excitement really, but it's bloody new.
16:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, I think the UK was ahead of the US, actually.
16:18 Fearne Cotton? Do you think?
16:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think that, I mean, certainly when I started circling around it and making jokes about it and on my Instagram feed and then creating the company, I was, I knew that there were people talking about it in the UK for sure, which was, I was looking to them and, I mean, Mariella Frostrup, a friend of mine who wrote Cracking the Menopause, her book came to me, The Galley, I think it was, right when I was in the midst of creating this company. And I was like, oh my God, I'm doing this thing too. And, but she'd already made the documentary. So yeah, I think you guys were, were already.
17:02 Speaker 02 Doing a lot better in terms of research and community building.
17:06 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I mean, it's it's all too late in the day. Like, what I discovered from your book, which, again, I found mind blowing, is that the term menopause was only coined in 1812. So before that, nothing, just women getting on with it and suffering and feeling like shit. And then perimenopause.
17:25 Speaker 02 Being sent, sorry to interrupt.
17:28 Fearne Cotton? No.
17:28 Speaker 02 Worse than that, like, if you Google the history of menopause, back to when, you know, that word was created, in Grecian times, men is a Greek word, it was, you know, they didn't know what to do with you. Once your, you know, reproductive organs were no longer in use, you were going to be sent off to the asylum or something. You were you were considered, you know, wacko.
17:53 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
17:54 Speaker 02 And there's just no use for a woman in society like that if she's going to suddenly not be able to produce and she's behaving in ways that are mysterious.
18:03 Fearne Cotton? Mysterious.
18:04 Speaker 02 Can you imagine?
18:05 Fearne Cotton? I mean, it's utterly absurd, but but you can see that there is a flavour of that still in the air in terms of older women being less seen, less heard, less valued. It's, we're not, I mean, we're not being sent off to, you know, asylum.
18:21 Speaker 02 Asylum.
18:22 Fearne Cotton? But there is still, there's a flavour of that, that we are less important and less valued in society at a certain point.
18:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's ingrained. It's a patriarchal thing that still is there and up to us, I think, to really break that down. And I think we've done a bloody good job in this generation. And it's, like you say, been the last five years that that change has ignited. And I think it will continue. Menopause is not going away. We can advocate for ourselves now and demand for better care.
18:57 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, and also, I guess, really honour it. Do you know what was so interesting? So very recently, we had an incredible guest on the podcast called Afua Hersh. She's an amazing activist, writer, speaker, and she's written a book called Decolonising My Body. There's a whole chapter on there, or maybe even chapters, on the menstrual cycle and the fact that we just... First of all, we don't talk about it enough when we start puberty. But then we don't learn to honour them. We just see them as this huge inconvenience that we have to keep all secret and don't tell anyone and hide the tampon. And it's all really clandestine. And then when we get to menopause, and then we don't have them anymore, we're so full of grief because we haven't realised
19:40 Fearne Cotton? the importance of them or how amazing they are. We've just seen them as this bloody awful inconvenience for three or four decades, whatever it is. And it's actually about going right back to the start of puberty and teaching young girls, this is an amazing natural phenomenon that you get to be part of until however old you are. And I think that's the bit that we're missing is sort of seeing... And they can be an inconvenience and they can be painful and we know all of that. But there is a beauty to it that we're not looking at, maybe.
20:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's part of your identity. You prepare for it, you live with it, you share it. Yeah, it runs into fear. It's just so much of who you are. Because as you say, it's three-plus decades. And I think this is why menopause, the education around it should really start in the classroom in fifth or sixth grade when you do sex ed and say, this is the beginning of your years as a hormonal woman. This is what can happen in between fertility and STDs and all of those things that will take place. And then the bookend of that is when your eggs are no longer there.
20:54 Speaker 02 And on the tails of that, you will experience a hormonal shift.
21:00 Speaker 02 And just so that you know to prepare, and I think, you know, one of the big reasons for doing the book and the company and being part of the advocacy world for me is that we should know that after 35, you're probably going to experience some perimenopausal symptoms. And I didn't know that. I did know that fertility slows down, but I didn't know that experiences and symptoms are going to affect you as early as that. And it's not the experience for everyone, but it is more common than you think. And I know people talk about the average age being 51. Well, it's very, it's, it's, it's, I mean, averages are strange because,
21:45 Speaker 02 and also menopause is not a one size fits all. It's such a hard thing to actually determine what that menopause day is, because you can have a period, lose your period, and then not have it for six months. And you think you're, oh, this is it. And then suddenly it comes back again. But really, the definition, the one test is the last period you had. And a year on from that, that is when you are officially in menopause. Any blood work can change, you know, from day to day. So they're not, you know, convinced that that is enough certainty.
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24:07 Fearne Cotton? Talk to me about the, I'm sure, immense confusion you had when your doctor told you these are early signs of perimenopause or menopause as you're going through a fertility journey, because that's the last thing you want to hear in that moment when you're trying to have a baby and then you're faced with, oh, my God, I thought I was at the start of this, creating babies and getting pregnant, but now I'm talking about the end. How did you mentally navigate that?
24:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, the collision of those two bits of information coming at once. Like, he was in my mind telling me I was a grandmother and I was trying to be a mother. I'm like, what? But anyway, that is ridiculous, and me playing tricks and self-loathing tricks on me, on myself. So, yeah, I was what's called perimenopausal, but that word was not given to me. I had never heard it until the last few years, actually, and that would have been a much nicer, kinder word to have heard. Tried every version of getting pregnant and none of them were working for a couple
25:18 Speaker 02 of years. I wasn't a candidate for IVF. I tried Clomid, I tried IUIs, I put my legs in the air and did temperature checks.
25:28 Fearne Cotton? Cycling legs in the air. We've all done this.
25:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, like all of it, all of it and nothing was working. I was so desperate to be a mum. I was turning in on myself with shame, thinking I was, you know, broken and because I couldn't reproduce naturally. And it was a horrible, horrible time. And but I did it to myself. It was not, it was nothing more than that. But eventually I found a fantastic book called Inconceivable. And this woman had the same thing as me, which is a high FSH level follicle stimulating hormone. And she changed her diet. And I did a lot of
26:14 Speaker 02 what she was saying. But that book was kind of my saviour. And I remember being tied to that book for the hope, for the possibility that that her story could become my story. And again, that is another reason why I wrote this book, because I wanted, I wanted to provide some sense of hope. And through information, through other women's stories, my own, with all the gory details and with some humour.
26:44 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, with a lot of humour, which is greatly appreciated. You've written a very funny book. And I think it is so important to team stats, facts, deep dive research with stories. Storytelling is so important. And I think at times when you feel hopeless, hearing about someone else's journey, whether it's fertility, or other hormone issues, or perimenopause, menopause, it gives you hope that you don't have to hear one thing from a doctor and go, I'm fucked. That's it. That's me done. You know, to hear hopeful stories is, is integral, I think, actually.
27:18 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
27:21 Speaker 02 And there's lots of great menopause books out there written by doctors who are highly, highly informed in this specific area. And I've read many of them and they have been so incredibly helpful for me. But I want, this was important to me because it needs to be accessible. It needs to be something that you can follow along through my story as well as other women. And I think, you know, storytelling is, is the thing that will not only remove the stigma, but create change, I think, ultimately. We have to be open and share and just own our stories. It's such a release as well as productive.
28:02 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I think it really, I think the, the, and you know, you've been extremely generous in, in sharing all sorts of stories in here, which I think is the most impactful way to completely annihilate shame. And, you know, you've written a whole chapter on shame in the book and so many issues that women face create shame. I'm pretty sure everyone listening to this now at some point will have been drowning in shame. I've certainly, I mean, I've talked about it probably too much on this podcast that I've had, you know, whole chunks of my life ruined by feeling just such shame. And as soon as you read someone else's story and go, oh, it's not just me, it's not just me. There's other people out there that have mentally lost so much time ruminating on things or
28:46 Fearne Cotton? feel physically like there's something wrong with them. It's just, it has the power just to dissipate shame, that, that level of storytelling. So it's, it's so important.
28:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, the, the, the most healing thing in life is to feel part of a community, to feel healed by not being alone. We're not supposed to be alone. And having our stories reflected is, or, or my passion, you know, it's what I do as an actor up on the screen, even though I'm telling someone else's story, it's hopefully bringing people into the cinema or on TV and reflecting theirs, you know, pieces of their stories. And that's all I've ever wanted to do. It's ma, it matters to me.
29:32 Fearne Cotton? Best chapter name, Vajavana. Well done.
29:36 Speaker 02 Well, I can tell you, that's also a product name, Vajavana.
29:41 Fearne Cotton? Yes. Oh, you got it handy.
29:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, just happen to have it right there beside my bed. That is not a lube though, that is. Vaginal moisturiser.
29:53 Fearne Cotton? Lovely.
29:54 Speaker 02 That I, we created for, in Stripes Beauty, which is the company I was talking about. I created for women of this category so they can feel well hydrated from scalp to vag. Yeah, that, there's a few things that take place that are very personal in that particular chapter.
30:12 Fearne Cotton? Yes.
30:13 Speaker 02 Certainly, I didn't expect that I would be going through menopause and entering into a new relationship at the same time.
30:20 Fearne Cotton? Yes, I mean, that is, I mean, something that you don't necessarily expect, but something that I guess has its own challenges separate to, you know, being a teenager or twenty something and falling in love and, and lust and all of that stuff. You know, it's a completely different ballgame. I think there are huge pluses because you've got more wisdom and experience and perhaps have the ability to speak your mind more freely. But of course, going through menopause, having had children, meeting someone new, you've got to have sex with them for the first time. It's a huge deal.
30:52 Speaker 02 Yes, it is. Um, yes, and, and I, the story is in the book. I won't go into great detail about it, but yeah, it was incredibly awkward, humiliating. And mercifully, I was with a, a man who was not only not squeamish, but incredibly compassionate. And I was able to just tell him the truth of what was going on. And he was just, the response couldn't have been better. He just said, how can I help? And instantly comforting me and making me feel safe.
31:32 Fearne Cotton? And extra horny. Yes, I love it.
31:36 Speaker 02 When someone's that, you know, like.
31:39 Fearne Cotton? When they're nice, it's the best.
31:41 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:41 Fearne Cotton? It's the best. Do you know what I love? When I read this line in the book, I was like, you say, um, I didn't know he, this is about Billy, your husband, I didn't know he'd be the person that I belonged with. Oh.
31:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:55 Fearne Cotton? I love that. Cause you'd worked together. Completely platonically, nothing going on. And then a light switch went on and it was like, you're my person.
32:05 Speaker 02 Yes, yeah. Well, I think we'd spent months creating a good relationship at work and then a friendship. And yeah, then the sparks came and love, just really good. And we, but we moved very, very slowly because I really didn't feel in good enough shape as having just recently split up to be open to love and creating a relationship. I wanted to keep my head down on work and obviously on my kids. And yeah, so I didn't, it took me by surprise.
32:45 Speaker 02 But we moved very, very slowly and people didn't even know about it until quite a few years in.
32:51 Fearne Cotton? You're also the fittest couple ever. It's just like, you're too gorgeous. It's too much. It's like blinding. It's too much.
32:59 Speaker 02 Oh, thank you.
33:00 Fearne Cotton? Fact. Another thing that is, again, probably not talked about enough when it comes to menopause, is the mental health side of it. Anxiety and depression, two things that so many women will have to deal with. And Dr. Vora in your book states that psychiatric medicine aimed at serotonin is barking up completely the wrong tree. And I'm sure many women out there will have been either offered antidepressants or actually it would have been completely dismissed and not looked at at all. But in the book, you do give solutions and ways that we can look at our mental health when we're looking at menopause and ways that we can help ourselves. What was your experience sort of mentally?
33:44 Fearne Cotton? Would you say anxiety was more of a problem, low mood? What hit you?
33:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, anxiety. And I think.
33:56 Speaker 02 If you're not sleeping, that can lead to so many problems during this time. I mean, anyone can say that, a man can say that, a teenager, you know, you're just never going to be on top of your game when you're not sleeping. But as a woman in peri or menopause, you are going to experience a whole litany of other, it's going to lead to a whole lot of other things like anxiety, depression, memory blips, you know, in the most inconvenient ways. You could be standing in front of, you know, a boardroom of men, holding a meeting and suddenly you've lost the word or the sentence has gone, you know, I, it happens to me and I say one in my book of trying to remember a name of a show.
34:40 Speaker 02 I literally just walked from the set and I was, I cannot believe this is happening. It's, uh, it's very humiliating and, and can create a whole lot of anxiety. And so there are many ways to, to find treatment for that. I find personally for me, sleep, obviously, and that meant going on HRT to help my sleep and, uh, not deal with those disruptions. And it's safe for me. I realize it's not everyone's choice and we're not safe necessarily for everyone. But you have to get educated on that if it is right for you. But I also, exercise is a big one for me.
35:18 Speaker 02 It really is not just for nice lean muscles and, you know, I, I, I don't exercise to be skinny. I exercise to be strong and I exercise to get my mind right.
35:31 Fearne Cotton? Yeah. I mean, sleep is, it's, I mean, I've had the shittest week of sleep ever. I had, my son was ill, then he was waking me up Monday and then my daughter caught whatever it was. So she was in the bed with me and she was puking and it was, you know, then having night terrors because they've got fevers. I've literally had the shittest week of sleep and today.
35:50 Speaker 02 Oh, I'm sorry.
35:50 Fearne Cotton? My daughter was still off school and, um, and she wanted to watch Wicked, uh, the film. So we started watching that. Before I knew it, I was asleep, blacked out on the sofa. I woke up feeling so groggy and shit and it does, it affects every bit of you. You end up then eating more junk because you're trying to energize yourself and it just, everything gets out of whack. It's so tricky. What, what do you think has helped your sleep and getting into a, a good routine of it?
36:17 Speaker 02 Well, I, I. How I wind down at the end of the day is important. I try not to um eat, I I eat like with the kids at six. I don't really don't wanna eat at eight o'clock at night.
36:29 Fearne Cotton? Oh no, I hate that.
36:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I definitely don't drink in the middle of the week. Um I do like my glass of wine if if I, I mean, I generally will sleep so much better if I don't have wine, so I try to avoid it. But if I go out to dinner or something with a group of people at the end of the week, or if I'm cooking with friends, uh or then I will have it. Um and I really try to have a bath at the end of every day and it really is my wind down. So you're kind of setting the the tone for that. And if I'm in really, like, I I've already had too many nights in a row or I haven't had done well.
37:15 Speaker 02 I will take something if I need to, whether that's a Benadryl or we use Tylenol PM. I think you have something else over there. I don't I don't like using stronger sleep aids, um if I can avoid it. And exercise, again, it it tires you out. It really does help with sleep.
37:35 Fearne Cotton? It's the best. And and then when it comes to anxiety, I mean, I I again, I've actually had pretty, you know, not much anxiety at all in the last year, but I I had years again ruled by it. Quite in quite extreme ways. I couldn't drive on the motorway and and and all sorts of things that felt very disruptive. And I and that used to create a bit of a cycle again then of self-loathing and self-questioning and and actually, I think one of the most important things is to really be nice to yourself and let yourself off the hook and stop beating yourself up when things are a bit of a mess or when you haven't been on your A-game that day. Are you pretty good at being compassionate to yourself?
38:15 Speaker 02 Takes a little bit of time sometimes and I might have to fall on my face before I get that. I try to drive through things. I've got a lot of resilience. And that has been helpful at a lot of different points in my life, but sometimes it it's like, no, your body or, you know, everything's trying to tell you, just slow down. But when I do fall on my face, I find the best thing to do if you're doing it in front of someone is just call it out.
38:44 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
38:44 Speaker 02 Call it out and say, you know, identify it, name it and share it, you know, and to say, this is what's going on with me, forgive me, I need to take a moment.
38:54 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, that's the best way, because actually, as we all know, shame breathes in secrecy. So if you're then keeping all of that in, you've got shame coming into the picture as well, and it's just toxic.
39:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:05 Fearne Cotton? The pits.
39:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, it just snowballs.
39:07 Fearne Cotton? You mentioned a moment ago, HRT, and again, this was a section that I really read thoroughly, because it's an oversaturated arena when it comes to looking at hormone therapy and what to do, what not to do, there's misinformation out there, it's a shitshow actually, and a lot of it, you know, you explain the book is down to.
39:27 Speaker 02 And it's still going.
39:28 Fearne Cotton? And it's still going.
39:30 Speaker 02 The writing of this book, which I did, I am glad you read it thoroughly, and I went over this again and again and again, and we moved things around, we really like fact-checked in so many different areas with different doctors and different places, and still, you know, this is an evolving conversation, because the research has only really got going since the bad study that took place that put the fear of God and made everyone flush their hormones down the toilet, scared women, scared doctors, the hangover
40:07 Speaker 02 from that is so substantial, and a generation of women really went untreated largely, and it's only just started now, where women are feeling and doctors are feeling okay about about taking them again, and it requires, you know, you going into your doctor's office with as much information as you can gather. And there's lots of great information on the internet, great articles. There was one in the New York Times a couple of years ago called Women Have Been Misled. You know, and I've spoken to all of these doctors who are, you know, giving the current
40:48 Speaker 02 stats and the current research. But again, some people now are saying that HRT is not as beneficial as all of the things that people have listed over the years. So it's just, it's, it's like, I wish there was a perfect alignment within the medical system so that we could at least feel less confusion. But I would say, take your time and research it yourself. Find a doctor that you trust and ask the questions, talk about your symptoms, know that there is risk and benefit to every single medication you take. Talk about your medical history and symptoms. Those are the most important things. And then work it,
41:32 Speaker 02 work it through. It's just, the worst thing is when your doctor is going to gatekeep you, not just from the medicine, but from the conversation. Like, that's not okay. If you can't get a doctor to at least entertain the conversation and say, this is why, what I believe, then, then that might be grounds to, you know, seek another doctor.
41:54 Fearne Cotton? But again, bonkers that we have to go through this, that this is something we have to sort of almost battle through and do extensive research on, when it's going to happen to all of us and no one really has the answer. And like you say, it's bespoke, you know, it depends on your medical history, on your family's medical history, on your symptoms.
42:14 Speaker 02 Your symptoms, yeah.
42:15 Fearne Cotton? I mean, it's, that's the bit that's a head fuck for me, is just knowing like, what, what do you do? But I, I think you're so right. It's, it's asking questions, isn't it? Getting as much information as you can to then ensure that your answer is based on the data that matches you.
42:31 Speaker 02 Exactly.
42:32 Fearne Cotton? The other subject that I love, that you've dived into is just aging in general. And you've still got two grandmothers alive.
42:41 Speaker 02 Sadly.
42:42 Fearne Cotton? Oh, no.
42:43 Speaker 02 They both passed away.
42:44 Fearne Cotton? No.
42:45 Speaker 02 Since writing the book, yeah.
42:46 Fearne Cotton? No.
42:48 Speaker 02 They both went within months of each other. And, yeah, but one lived to 99, my mum's mum. And um my dad's mum lived to a hundred and one.
43:01 Fearne Cotton? It's extraordinary.
43:02 Speaker 02 Living longer. We really are.
43:04 Fearne Cotton? I know, but I mean, what amazing women and amazing ages. And I'm so sorry to hear they've both passed since you you've written the book. What would you say you learned from those women who were, I mean, one of them having lived on the planet for over a century? What what lesson did you learn from?
43:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, um I knew my mum's mum much better. In fact, she raised us for a period of time. And she was, her work ethic was the thing that I take away from her and great humour. She she was Australian and we called, you know, Aussie battler. She had a mouth on her and um. And she was like, get off your dinger and get something done. Like, if you dared to have a book in your hand, you had to go and get off your arse and and go and clean out the goats or the goats pen or get the chickens' eggs or, you know, like, she was uh she was not going to have anyone sitting around. And so I, as a result, and my brother, both workaholics, I would say.
44:05 Speaker 02 We work, work, work hard. But that's great, too. We take it seriously.
44:11 Fearne Cotton? And to end our chat, which I've loved every minute of, I would love to know, Naomi, where is your happy place?
44:18 Speaker 02 My happy place is home with the kids and Billy and playing a game, playing a game of cards, Bananagrams, eating good food.
44:28 Fearne Cotton? Love Bananagrams, big fan.
44:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, and there's another game that I think was invented in the UK, but apparently no longer available, called Snatch. And it's like, not not a snatch like that one down there.
44:43 Fearne Cotton? It's very appropriate.
44:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, on brand for me. Um, so, um, no, Snatch is a, it's another version of Bananagrams. It's a word game that gets aggressive and highly competitive and you steal someone's word and and it's it's very fun. But I'm I'm told it's no longer available, so.
45:03 Fearne Cotton? I'll do some Googling for you. I'll have a look into it. Um, I just want to say the biggest thank you for being on Happy Place. What a bloody pleasure. And again, a massive congrats on, dare I say it, the most awesome book that every woman needs to read. Thank you so much, Naomi Watts.
45:20 Speaker 02 Thank you, Fern, for having me.
45:22 Fearne Cotton? Oh my god, Naomi! Do you know what? Naomi, after that chat, slid into my DMs to thank me for my time. Who does that? No one. I don't think anyone's ever done that, unless I've known them, and then obviously they have. What an amazing human. I absolutely... I'm obsessed with her. How can I be friends with her? I mean, I say this a lot. Is it quite tragic that I want to slightly stalk her and be her best friend? Anyway, Naomi's book, Dare I Say It?, is published by Happy Place Books and it's out now. By the way, I mentioned my chat with Afua Hirsch and her book Decolonizing My Body. You actually haven't heard that chat yet. I've got to be excited, but you will in a few weeks and you're going to love it. I honestly, I haven't stopped thinking about that chat at all. So that's a little teaser for you.
46:06 Fearne Cotton? Well, as Naomi said, there's real power in sharing experiences and feeling less alone during the weird and confusing time in our lives. So let's all have a lovely natter on Instagram. During the week, we're over on @happyplaceofficial. Look, until next week, a massive thanks again to Naomi, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, because you are ace.
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