Get fillers or age as you are! Caroline Hirons shares the skincare you NEED at every age

Do you feel pressured to look a certain way as you age? CEO and beauty expert Caroline Hirons reckons it’s no one else’s business if you want to get tweakments or simply wash your face at night. In this chat, Fearne and Caroline pivot looking after your face from something you do to look good... to something you do to feel good. Concerned about the texture or structure of your skin? Caroline clarifies when you might want to get tweakments, and when you just need a solid skincare routine. Caroline also talks through the effect hormones, diet, alcohol, and stress are having on the way you look, and explains why you should avoid washing your face in a hot shower! Plus, do you secretly love being busy and rushed off your feet? Fearne and Caroline bond over being ambitious women, but get real about how impossible it is to get any kind of work / life balance if you run a business... If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Olivia Atwood https://pod.fo/e/273edd Emma Dabiri https://pod.fo/e/2154cb Matt Haig https://pod.fo/e/261ec9 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that's all about feeling good in your own skin. Today, I'm chatting to Caroline Hirons.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  I think it depends on what makes you happy. I think we can be way too judgmental on whether people want to do things to their skin in their face and whether they don't. If someone is perfectly happy, aging the way we all age, they're not interested in any kind of injectable, they use the basic skincare just so their skin feels comfortable, have at it. If someone else wants to do every injectable and have their lips blown up, that's entirely their choice. I always think as a woman, I can't be pro-choice for a woman, but then go, ah, but you shouldn't do this. I'm not big on the word shouldn't. What you shouldn't do is sell misinformation.

• 1:08Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I do hope that your homes are stinking of cinnamon and everything's all twinkly and bright and gorgeous and that you're feeling super festive and that you've watched at least five Christmas films, including Elf twice. We will have. I mean, my daughter is obsessed with Elf. We watch it in the summer, in the autumn, we watch it all year round and I'm never bored of it. I love that tingly Christmas feeling. It makes me regress back to being a kid and I love it. My other favourite Christmas film is A Boy Called Christmas. If you haven't seen that, written by the delectable Matt Hague, who we've had on the podcast twice, you can go back and listen to those. That film makes me cry and cry and cry.

• 1:48Fearne Cotton?

  And obviously, it's got the late day Maggie Smith in it, who is just gorgeous. Oh, it's so good. And I probably should say, if you really don't like Christmas and you find it all quite triggering because of everything I've just mentioned, the twinkly lights and the cinnamon, then you don't have to, you know, bin it off, you don't have to, you know, don't have to do it. There's so much pressure around this time of year, so go gentle on yourselves, I would say. And if you're a bit of a perfectionist and you want everything to be all perfect for Christmas Day, again, go easy on yourself. You know, you never know what's going to happen. Just go easy on yourself. That's what I'm telling myself right now. It doesn't matter if I've forgotten to buy bloody crackers, all right? Doesn't matter.

• 2:27Fearne Cotton?

  Now, today, I'm chatting to Caroline. She's a multi-award winning CEO and beauty expert. She's the author of the bestselling beauty book of all time, Skincare: The Ultimate No-Nonsense Guide, and she launched her own podcast, Glad We Had This Chat, earlier this year. She's known for her incredibly honest, unfiltered opinions and recommendations, and that is what we love here on Happy Place Unfiltered Chat. Some of the things we talk about are the overwhelming amount of info about beauty trends. Now, look, this is a bit different for me this episode, because I don't normally hone in on one subject, especially not necessarily beauty. I've never really touched the subject, maybe with Olivia Atwood a little bit, but that was more focused on surgery, cosmetic surgery, botox, etc. This is really about

• 3:12Fearne Cotton?

  sort of skin and beauty, insider now. But it felt different. It felt different. Sometimes I thought, am I getting this chat right? It was really weird for me, but I loved it nonetheless. We also talk about aging, really important subject, and also what I loved was talking about being ambitious, running a company, and then people going, how do you get balance, which I did actually ask her. And the answer being, you can't. If you want a really big business and success, you probably aren't going to get a good life-work balance. It's probably not going to happen. And I loved her honesty around that.

• 3:51Speaker 03

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• 4:22Speaker 04

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• 4:50Speaker 05

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 5:24Fearne Cotton?

  As is often the way, Caroline and I were already nattering away before our chat officially started. So, let's get on with it, here's the show.

• 5:54Fearne Cotton?

  We sometimes have the smell of food coming from a restaurant, I think, above us. I don't mind that. We've formally started Caroline.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 6:02Fearne Cotton?

  You're right.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Hi, you alright?

• 6:03Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so excited to do this because I love what you do. And I love, do you know what I love? I love lots about you. I love what you do on social media because you are one of the very few people who is just being you.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Good or bad, I'd like to apologise now in advance if you haven't witnessed it before.

• 6:21Fearne Cotton?

  You're just being you. And I think it's a real skill because there's a weirdness when you're being certainly filmed for Instagram or TikTok, whatever, that you're really aware that people are going to watch it and how people are going to digest it. And you're just you.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  I think because I've been doing it so long. I was an early starter on Instagram and I was on Twitter before, when it used to be good.

• 6:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  And I think because I've been doing it such a long time, and I'm a bit older. I think if I was in my twenties, I'd be way more self-conscious. I mean, my followers have seen me in some states. Like waking up in a hotel in California and kicking off because it only kicking off in a way that you do your English and you just complain about it. You don't actually do anything about it.

• 7:00Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Have any teeth and my hair's decrepit and my I look like I'm Shrek. It's just they've seen me in pretty much every situation, except naked.

• 7:09Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  No one needs that.

• 7:10Fearne Cotton?

  I not for me either. I don't want to be doing that from my own channels.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  We don't want to put people off their dinner.

• 7:15Fearne Cotton?

  But it's really lovely and it's so impressive because you've built this gorgeous space, which is a place of education and the truth. And really valid information that we need to hear. And you've done it so brilliantly and authentically because there is so it's such an overwhelming topic. Skin.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:35Fearne Cotton?

  It's such an overwhelming topic and it feels like you've just distilled everything down to one place. But one thing you're not comfortable with is the term influencer.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:43Fearne Cotton?

  That needs to be put in the bin.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't like it from the beginning because I could see where it was going to go as soon as as soon as people would because there was a group of us. We were bloggers.

• 7:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  We were bloggers and then there were a few of us who were in that world who are still around like Sam and Nick Chapman, who were experts in their field, who happened to have a blog. Or a YouTube channel or something. And then when the term influencer came around and it was used to just put everyone in one pool. I was like, well, I hope that my sole reason for being on social media isn't to encourage people to buy something. If anything, I tell people not to buy things. I even say it on our packaging. You don't need this if, which no one else does. I love that. You know, you need this if you've got extra. You don't need this if. And so I just saw that it was as soon as you are lumped in with everyone else without anything to distinguish you from everyone else. And as soon as you are, which I do, I I I do sponsored posts, not as many as you could, obviously.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  But I and I know I understand I have influence. I I do get that, but to me influencer went negative so quickly. And I could see it coming because like I say, I'm fifty five. You know, you're like, hmm, I don't know if that's me. I don't stand in front of the no shade. It's just not me.

• 8:51Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  I don't stand in front of the mirror and go, you know, it was in the early days. It was things like, oh, guys, I've just moved house. What sofa do you think would go here? Because you're obviously begging for a sofa. You know, and I would just be like, I would just be like, buy a sofa, bird. So I I I always just went like that. But I a lot of my friends are influencers. So I for me, it was like a. Because as well, there are certain aspects where people will use that to take away from your expertise. Well, you are an expert.

• 9:17Fearne Cotton?

  And that's something that needs to be at the forefront of this conversation is that your history is long and diverse.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Thanks for that.

• 9:24Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I'm not talking about age, babes.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  So long, you're so old.

• 9:27Fearne Cotton?

  Likewise with me. A career that has spanned decades.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:31Fearne Cotton?

  And I think it's really cool to look into all the stages of that. So your mum and grandmother were both beauty veterans. They worked in the industry.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  They were both in the industry, yeah.

• 9:39Fearne Cotton?

  And then you started out on a counter at Harvey Nix. That was the first job?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'd never discussed going into beauty with my mum or my nan, ever.

• 9:47Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 9:48Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:48Fearne Cotton?

  Why not?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  I didn't know what I wanted to do. I wanted to have two kids before I was 25. I mean, now it just seems crazy. But I wanted to have two kids before I was 25. I met Jim when I was 19. We did that. And I went, right, now I need to have a career. And there's Taipei and then there's me. That's the joke. You know, it's like, okay, now I'm going to do this and now I'm going to do this. And so then I wanted to have two more kids. And then I wanted to have, I had three and then I wanted a boy. I was like, well, we're going to have to have a fourth kid because we've had a third. We need one for each hand. And he was just like, I think you need to calm down. I was like, no, we're going to have another kid and it's going to be a boy and I'm going to call him Max. And he was like, but what if that's not in my plan? I'm like, well, then we won't have sex.

• 10:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly, because that's my plan, so.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  So within a month, I was pregnant and Max is now 20.

• 10:25Fearne Cotton?

  Love. Love.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  I know a lot of that is down to good luck and to good fortune. I don't say it, you know, sort of off the cuff. But I just, I just wanted to do a job that meant I could do the school run and be at home. And so I went for a weekend job and I was a beauty shopper. So I phoned at the time, my girlfriend Lorraine, she used to be my Clarins rep. I used to follow her around London when she was on the Clarins counter and she'd moved to Evada. And I just phoned her and I said, are there any sort of part-time weekend jobs going in Harvey Nix? Because I've done retail before and I'm obsessed with beauty. And she said, actually, we've got a weekend job going here. It used to be Saturday, Sunday girl. That's what you were called. That's how long ago it was. And I went for the job, got the job. And on day one, I fell in love and that was it. I was like, I'm never going to do anything else again, ever. I want to work in beauty.

• 11:11Fearne Cotton?

  And there's something really cool about that specific job, that you are directly communicating with people. You're probably hearing a lot of their life story, more so than you would expect, because you're having these really intimate conversations with people to find out what they want, what they need. And it's not just about skin. And I'm imagining you'll agree, it's something about confidence and empowerment and feeling good in your own skin. What would you say you took away from that, that particular job?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  That kickstarted everything because there is, I've said this before when I've spoken to friends. If you've been in the service industry, I think everyone should have to be in the service industry before they're allowed into the real world. Because it teaches you everything, whether it's retail, hospitality, you know, some kind of service. Because the interaction you have with the general public, you can't match that if you've gone straight into an office environment or, you know. So I loved, it wasn't when people, it really kicked in for me sort of on day two, which sounds like, oh, it took you six hours. On day two, the other person that was supposed to be working with me, because on Sundays, it used to be the quiet day of the week, they're not, it wasn't the busiest day of the week like it is now. And she phoned in six, so I was on my own on the counter and I took as much money as the day before, when there was like four or five of us in. But I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was selling. I was just talking to people.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  From day one, I was like, oh, don't use that, you don't need that. And that's kind of been my way. I mean, I would be in Space NK as a manager and I would get told off for not selling enough Eve Lom because Space NK used to own Eve Lom. And I'd be like, I don't like it. I sell this instead, you know, and they couldn't get their head around it. And, and so I just always enjoyed it when people would say, oh, my skin feels really good. It wasn't, I look fantastic, my husband's noticed, it was just, I feel so much better. And that was always the goal. It wasn't, you know, trying to fit into a trend or, you know, follow what everyone else is doing. It was just, how can you make your skin feel the way you want it to feel? And how do we do that, you know, with not, not with spending fortune, just trying to keep it streamlined into what you actually need.

• 13:05Fearne Cotton?

  And I think like you've just said, talking to people, actually having that direct communication with people that are feeling not great in their own skin and want the help is, is the best time to, to learn and to grow your skill set. Then you went to beauty school after that.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I transferred to central London, took a demotion, went to assistant manager at Harvey Nichols Space NK so that I could go to night school to do beauty therapy. Did that through two pregnancies, three hundred hours of basic training, because I'm, that's me, I don't go, I'll just get the piece of paper and then I'm done. I have to go, no, I want the best school, the hardest course, idiot, while raising two children, then three children, and then I'm pregnant with a fourth. And so when I finally graduated, because we all knew I was going to graduate and do well, because I was just, I just loved doing it. It was just when they, they phoned me, they went, you've passed with credits or whatever it is. And I was like, oh, thank you. And I was huge, I was just about to have Mac, so it was the summer. And when I did my exam, I was like eight months pregnant. And it was just trying to wax and I can't even lean over the bed and it was very entertaining.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  But I just thought, okay, another hour and then you're done and you've got the paper finally, you know, and if I hadn't have done that, I wouldn't have, I don't think I'd have the career I'd have because it would just be opinion. It wouldn't be actually, this is what we've trained in. Because when you do sort of a heavy duty course, like a CBTAC course or a Sedesco course, City and Guilds, it's you get much more about anatomy and physiology and biology. And it's not just, oh, this is how you do a massage, you know, you start with the basics. You start from inside the skull and you work your way out. So, and I was obsessed with it from, from the, from the get go.

• 14:38Fearne Cotton?

  And then you started consulting, which again is something that, you know, you have to have qualifications. You have to have knowledge rather than just opinion again.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  I, I was working for people and I kind of, I knew I didn't want to do big corporate. It's not me, as people who follow me will be able to tell.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  I just would be a square peg in a round hole. And so I, I just coincidentally thought, well, if I consulted and had two clients, I would earn more than I would as an employee anyway. And then at the same time during, literally during like a six week period, the, the crash happened in America, the stock crash, like 2008, 2009. And so Space NK were like, you know, as Inside Out, we've got so many American brands that can't afford to hire anyone here full time. Would you help a couple of them out? And that was it. I was off, done. I would just get clients, get a retainer, do all the trainings. I mean, I still get people messaging me now going, hi Caroline, you won't remember me, but you trained me in Hampton Sun or David Kershaw, Anthony Femen, 15 years ago, and you sparked my love for beauty and blah, blah, blah. And I just think, God, I don't even, I mean, I have to, if I look at the year, I remember what

• 15:40Speaker 02

  brand it was. That's how I, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, that was Sunday Riley. No, that was Kate Somerville. No, that was Zellens. And so I think it was just fortuitous that I was in the right place at the right time. I mean, you know, I don't want people to have a stock market crash for me to do well, but it.

• 15:54Fearne Cotton?

  But it was not necessary.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  It's quite extreme.

• 15:56Fearne Cotton?

  It worked out well. It's quite extreme. A moment ago, you said something and I'm, this is how my brain works and go off on all these different tangents, but I want to pick up on the word trends because that I think is part of the overwhelm that most people feel today when it comes to skincare.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:11Fearne Cotton?

  There is so much information out there.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:13Fearne Cotton?

  There's fake news and misinformation and we're trying to navigate it all and work out what is best for us. And again, that's why you've created this sort of educational platform that that we can use. I guess one of the problems is TikTok, especially when we look at the teen market. You know, I've got teenage stepchildren and I've sort of seen that over the years, how, you know, and also my son who's about to turn 12. All of his friends that are girls in the class are heavily influenced by what's going on on TikTok. And all of a sudden wanting these certain brands that are insanely expensive and plowing their faces with cream. I guess the most obvious question to ask would be, do teenagers need skincare?

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Yes, but they don't need that kind of skincare.

• 16:55Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  No. And some might need the absolute basics. With, if you're talking about a teenager that's going to wear makeup, then yes, you would give them skincare because they need to take it off. And if they're taking it off, they might need a moisturizer and in an ideal world, they'd use SPF. But the trend for brightly coloured, really expensive, no, absolutely not. And I, it's, it's funny because teenagers have always stolen our stuff.

• 17:20Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  I spend my time going, where is it? Thinking that Ava has still stolen something, even though she's 22. Half the time she has. But it used to be makeup. Now they're stealing, and perfume. I used to steal my mum's fragrances.

• 17:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I used to steal my mum's ane, ane.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then I'd just pretend, go, now I smell like my mum.

• 17:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Which sounds terrible because it's hers, you know. And so they used to steal makeup and fragrance, but the reason skincare is a problem is because, one, they want it all for themselves, it's more expensive. Some brands marketed themselves directly to that consumer, which was a mistake because their sales are down this year. Like, you know, they're, they're not an invested consumer, they're a trend-driven consumer. Why would you put all of your marketing spend there? It's not a customer that's going to stay loyal. And of course, some of the skincare that they're using can do harm to their skin.

• 18:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  So you'd know you absolutely do not need all of that skincare for your teenager.

• 18:09Fearne Cotton?

  No. And I guess another obvious question, but because I think most of us are completely confused. Is there one set skincare routine for everybody? Is there a baseline skincare routine that we should all be doing? Because this is an honest place, I'm a very honest person. I don't know what mine is. Mine changes all the time. I've not got a fucking clue what I'm doing. I'm sort of, I'll use what products are lying around. I might see something online, give it a try. I'm not massively committed to any of it. And, and also I think, you know, I'm in my mid 40s and I'm.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Are you committed to your foundation though?

• 18:45Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I'll change and wear whatever. I'm sort of.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  It's interesting because by the time you get to your mid 40s, most people have committed to it. It's hardest to get people off foundation and mascara.

• 18:55Fearne Cotton?

  I'm committed to wearing it.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I just like a particular one.

• 18:57Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, not a particular one. I'll just sort of experiment. I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. I feel completely like I'm, it's the Wild West.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Quite common. And also I think the industry has to take responsibility for that too. Because there is money to be made in marketing confusion.

• 19:09Fearne Cotton?

  Well, quite.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  People buy more.

• 19:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  You know, people buy more and that's what I detest about the industry. And that's why I'm forever being the one going, actually, that's not true.

• 19:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  And I'm sure it winds up some aspects of the industry, that's not my problem, you know?

• 19:20Fearne Cotton?

  Not your problem.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  If you're gonna lie to people, I'm gonna be the one going, actually, that's not true, you know?

• 19:24Fearne Cotton?

  So what are we, what are we meant to be doing?

• 19:26Speaker 02

  At the bare minimum, wash your face and wear an SPF.

• 19:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Okay, so the SPF thing is another hot topic because there again was sort of misinformation thrown about.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Because of California.

• 19:37Fearne Cotton?

  Recently in America, saying, oh, it's bad for your skin, don't put it on. I mean, I've got sun damage on my face from not wearing it as a teenager. And I don't love that and I wish I'd known better in the 90s, but.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  80s for me.

• 19:49Fearne Cotton?

  None of us knew and we were putting oil on.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Hawaiian Tropic number two. Lying on oil, lying on foil.

• 19:54Fearne Cotton?

  Smelling like a peeling powder.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Foil and oil.

• 19:56Fearne Cotton?

  That was the way, we all did it. And we're now suffering, but we know better now. But that's one that again, I've heard you talk about and say, that's bollocks, wear SPF.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, just wear SPF. It's scientifically proven. I'm not big on fear mongering, no matter what side of the industry it comes from. If it comes from a marketing team saying, you have to wear SPF or you're gonna die, relax. If it's coming from California, saying you can't wear SPF or you will die. I'm like, can we everyone just chill out?

• 20:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  SPF is safe. Please use it. Use it absolutely if you've got a family history of skin cancer, you should use it every day. If you're worried about signs of aging, you should use it if you can read a book without artificial light. So if you're outside in the middle of winter and it's quite dark at four P M, you don't need S P F. Of course you don't. People say, do I need S P F because I go to a shift in a hospital all night? And I'm like, so you're driving in the dark and coming home in the dark and you're in, I'm like, no.

• 20:42Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  If you're in a hospital, you're going to be dehydrated. Much more important for you is oil and water. And then they're like, oh, so use S P F. There is no alternative that works in terms of, you know, beef tallow, cook your potatoes in that. I can't, I can't.

• 20:56Fearne Cotton?

  Is that a thing?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  It's a new thing on TikTok, yeah. Like, if you want to smell like a Sunday roast, you knock yourself out. But I would rather not have signs of aging, not have skin cancer and not smell like a chicken.

• 21:06Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. What are your thoughts on signs of aging? Because this is, again, a topic I'm deeply invested in.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  When I say signs of aging, I mean, like, the severe signs you would get if you never used S P F and you lived in the sun.

• 21:15Fearne Cotton?

  Right, right, right.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  And you can see that kind of skin from miles away. I embrace getting older. I'm fifty five. There's no pretending I'm twenty five, you know? I think it depends on what makes you happy. I think we can be way too judgmental on whether people want to do things to their skin and their face and whether they don't. If someone is perfectly happy, aging the way we all age, they're not interested in any kind of injectable. They use the basic skincare just so their skin feels comfortable, have at it. If someone else wants to do every injectable and have their lips blown up, that's entirely their choice. I, I always think as a woman, I can't be pro-choice for a woman.

• 21:45Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  But then go, ah, but you shouldn't do this. I'm not big on the word shouldn't. What you shouldn't do is sell misinformation. That's kind of where I'm.

• 21:53Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. I guess it's such a complicated conversation because I'm absolutely on the same page as you. I just think, knock yourself out. Whatever makes you feel confident and good in your own skin, do it. I guess there is this sort of separate area, which is the pressure that has always been placed upon women way, way more than men. And I know men's skincare has probably evolved and there is maybe slightly more pressure in that area. But for as long as we can look back, there's this obsession about female beauty, female aging. And, and this sort of female being as childlike as humanly possible in every physical way. And that pressure does lead to huge, hugely low self-esteem, lack of confidence, people feeling there's something wrong with them for simply aging.

• 22:39Fearne Cotton?

  Is that pressure, can we be as cynical to say that pressure comes from the Industrial Revolution? People wanting to make money out of women?

• 22:48Speaker 02

  I don't know how far back it goes, but I know it didn't start with social media.

• 22:51Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  It's easy to blame social media. I think as far back as I can remember, it's the Hollywood starlets.

• 22:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  You know, it's, no one I knew looked like Rita Hayworth, Ava Gardner, Marilyn Monroe. That was the image.

• 23:02Fearne Cotton?

  There was four of them in the world.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Then it was magazines.

• 23:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  And then magazines became, you know, general media, page three, all of that nonsense. Then it became blogs, social media, and then it became, you know, blogs have now been taken over by social media in general. And so it's the pressure that's always been there. I think if anything, we've kind of disregarded that it has put more pressure on young boys because the, if you look at TikTok or Instagram, it's full of men at the gym. Full of men at the gym showing their pecs. And I just think it's not great for their psychological wellbeing either. So I don't think it's, I don't know where it started, but it's always been there. It's just a bit more amplified now. I like to use social media for good in that calling out things that, and I'm the first, you know, I, it's a miracle I've still got a career really, because when I, when the blog was at its peak

• 23:46Speaker 02

  and I was getting all the views and stuff, I was raging perimenopausal. I mean, I was delulu. And so I would rant and shout and kick off and, and then I'd have to be like, oh, that's my bad. I'm a dick, you know? And now I'm actually kind of.

• 24:00Fearne Cotton?

  I love all that.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Well, now I'm a bit like, oh, I don't care. Use beef fat on your face. I don't get involved. I'm just like, knock yourself out. Enjoy melanoma.

• 24:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, quite. And there's no point wasting energy fighting that fight.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  I use my energy for all the good stuff now. And I'd rather just be like, you know, I've got pigmentation and sun damage here. I'm gonna get it lasered tomorrow and I'll show all that on camera and be like, this is what it might look like. It's gonna go blacker and then drop off.

• 24:23Fearne Cotton?

  I've got a massive bit here and I'm, I mean, luckily I wear my hair down, but I hate it.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  You can get it lasered off.

• 24:28Fearne Cotton?

  I couldn't give a shit about getting older, things dropping as they naturally do, lines, whatever.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:35Fearne Cotton?

  But the sun damage, I hate.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  It's usually pigmentation that people hate the most because that's what you see and you think that shouldn't be there. Cause I think as we age slowly and the lines come on slowly, you get used to them. You know, if you haven't seen someone for ages and they look much older or really well, you're like, oh, you look really well. Or, oh god, they didn't look good. In your head, hopefully you don't say that out loud.

• 24:54Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  But we see ourselves every day, so we're used to aging. But when you get the pigmentation, like, well, that's new. Cause you're used to kind of the fine lines coming up. And when you smile, you have laughter lines. I don't want all that to disappear. If I can't be like, I can't tell the kids off, you know? So I don't wanna be like a surprised tambourine, you know, with the. It's not attractive. Yeah. And you can do that one too. It's all very attractive. And certain people will have come to mind now with that picture, but I'm not gonna say a word. And that's up to you. If you wanna do that, knock yourself out.

• 25:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, no, no.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  But I, I, like, do whatever you wanna do. I just, I, on my very first YouTube video, I was a guest of Sam and Nick Chapman. And I said, and it just came out of my mouth, I said, I think I have no problem with looking my age. I think aging is a privilege that not everyone gets. And that stuck. And I, I said it and I thought, oh, that sounded, well done, Holly, and that was a good one.

• 25:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Cause it just came out and I still stick to it, you know, I'm lucky to be here. I'm 55, I've got four kids, two grandkids, husband. Why would I complain about having whatever it is, lines? I mean, yeah, if you can do something about it and you want to do. But don't stress.

• 25:55Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no, no, no. Because I think people become, it's the obsession. But I think when you don't like something about yourself.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:01Fearne Cotton?

  And you become completely laser point focused on that thing. It can ruin your day. It can ruin a week.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  It can ruin your life. If you look in the mirror, let's say, if you look in the mirror and for years, the one thing you've always hated is your nose. And all you see when you look in the mirror is, I hate my nose. And you can get a nose job, then do it. If it, cause I know people, people have had nose jobs, people have had their boobs reduced, boobs, whatever, it's changed their life. They feel psychologically and fundamentally, they feel better about themselves. Knock yourselves out. I think obviously there are people with body dysmorphia and that's a whole different thing. But it is, it's important to remember that's a very small percentage. Most average, normal people embrace what they do. They want their skin to look good. They want their makeup to look good. But they, I think most of us just want people to go, oh, you look well, not, I like your makeup. Or, you know, it's usually, I just want people to go, you look well.

• 26:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  You know, or I saw Fern the other day, she looks great. Like, that's all you need. You don't need, well, I saw Fern and her lines are gone and she looks incredible. Like, it's just, who's looking at you in that much detail, you know?

• 26:58Fearne Cotton?

  No one is, cause we're all obsessed about ourselves. Yeah, exactly. And I guess there's also, there's gotta be room for learning to love yourself as you are. Like, I, I again, think if you want to have plastic surgery, fillers, whatever, and it makes you feel better, great. But I do think there's sort of this other grey area where, like, I didn't used to particularly like my nose, cause it's quite characterful. But now I love my nose. It's my dad's. Nose is is literally Mick Cotton's nose has been plonked on my face. And I love my dad dearly and it's I love my nose and I'm and I've grown to I've got to that place through age and experience where I'm pretty happy in my skin. I don't obsess about my nose like I used to. I don't think about my fucking nose.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:38Fearne Cotton?

  Ever. And I think we've got to give ourselves the time and space to find that self compassion and that inner love, rather than always expecting that the outside bit's going to change the inside bit.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And that some of that unfortunately comes with age, you know.

• 27:51Fearne Cotton?

  It does.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  If you were surrounded by different people and you had the opportunity and you were eighteen, nineteen, and someone was constantly saying to you, you can have a nose job, maybe you would have done it.

• 27:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  And that would be a shame.

• 28:00Fearne Cotton?

  It would have been awful.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  You wouldn't have had mixed nose.

• 28:02Fearne Cotton?

  I love this hooter. Absolutely. I love.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Your hooter is lovely.

• 28:06Fearne Cotton?

  It's a character for it's a big old hooter.

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• 30:11Fearne Cotton?

  So I want to go back to, again, getting some really clear facts for my lovely listeners, because we've got, majority of listeners are females, probably around my age.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:22Fearne Cotton?

  Who will be noticing signs of aging or with hormone changes, noticing changes within their skin.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:29Fearne Cotton?

  Are there, I don't know, three or five absolute musts, absolute tips that you would say to really commit to, to have that healthy feeling and looking skin?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yes. If you're, so you're saying what, early 40s?

• 30:42Fearne Cotton?

  I reckon.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Late 30s, early 40s?

• 30:44Fearne Cotton?

  We've got a lovely pocket of people from all ages, but there will be a lot of women my age.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, my demographic is similar. So if you're heading towards the stage of perimenopause, which you will be at that age.

• 30:53Fearne Cotton?

  I'm in it.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, then your oestrogen will be depleting, that's just normal, that happens. Because not everyone has a kid. But if you have ovaries and you've had a menstrual cycle, everyone will go through menopause.

• 31:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  You know, so it might be the first time you've ever had a hormonal shift in your body if you haven't had kids. That's a big change for women, you know. But what will happen is your skin will slow down. So it won't look as fresh. You might find you wake up and you look a bit more tired than you used to do. You might find you look a bit more sallow, so we go a bit yellower as we get older.

• 31:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Which is where you get what I call blush blindness. So if you see older women with a load of blush on, and I am totally guilty, I do it, I do it.

• 31:30Fearne Cotton?

  I'm thinking of my late nams.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Yes, oh, like, because you do, you look in the mirror and you start to look all this colour.

• 31:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  You just wake up and you look all this colour. And so the main thing is just like, oh, just giving me a bit of blush. Because, you know, most women who are over a certain age, if you give them one blush or a lip, they can make that thing work on their whole face.

• 31:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Blush, lip, eyelid, done, let's go. Gorgeous. You need to put the colour back in and that's cosmetic, that's makeup. In terms of your actual skin texture, you could do with doing some acid, you know, a gentle acid, you don't have to go crazy, you don't need some super strong glycolic that's going to make your face fall off. Just to help you resurface, because when it slows down, it's a bit like your car engine has just got a bit, needs a bit of oil and a bit of petrol. It's just taking a slower route. Yeah. The skin is slower to heal. So if you, if you kind of get a spot or you pick a spot, because you'll still get them, especially if you're premenopausal, you might then find that you get pigmentation, which is exactly what happened to me here. Um, and if you pick it, it doesn't just immediately like, you know, if you pick a spot and you're a teenager, it's gone the next day and you're just like, oh, it was a bit red.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  When you're older, your skin takes longer to heal. And so it's things that help, just help support it along the way. Um, and so it'd be acids, retinoids, vitamin C. You can kind of use that as a holy trinity and go from there. As long as you've got a cleanser to wash your face, moisturizer, and if you want to be completely bare minimum, and I don't call it lazy, because some people just don't want to bother, they just want the bare minimum. You can buy an SPF that has a moisturizer, sort of, almost a moisturizer with an SPF built in, but I would be more inclined to buy an SPF that is moisturizing. Oh, right. Like a higher SPF, because most in the old days, like in my space and K days of twenty years ago that we were talking about earlier, I would buy a moisturizer that had SPF fifteen, pointless. Just false economy, false sense of security, because you're not going to use it everywhere on your face, you're not going to put it on the tops of your ears if you've got a ponytail on in the middle of summer, fifteen's not high enough.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  So buy an SPF fifty that's moisturizing, because the technology we have in the EU, which we are still a part of as far as cosmetics go, is far beyond where we were twenty years ago and far beyond the USA. So SPF's are beautiful and you can use it as a moisturizer and then you've got your moisturizer and SPF in one and you're, you're done. If you want to treat things, because remember you're treating the texture of the skin, if you want to change the structure of your skin, that is where you go and see someone who can do an injectable. That's the structure of your skin. So if you think about the scaffolding outside the building, that will start to dismantle as we get older and it just does. You know, the jokes about everything heading south. If you breastfed four kids and you take your bra off, you're very aware of that.

• 33:53Fearne Cotton?

  I'm there, two of them, but still there.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. It only takes one, let's be honest. Just takes one and you're like, well, where did they go?

• 33:58Fearne Cotton?

  Troop little doggies.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  There's none of this one. You know, you see women putting a bra on and moving, they put it on front to back. I'm like, who are you?

• 34:05Fearne Cotton?

  Fuck that.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Who does that?

• 34:07Fearne Cotton?

  We're scooping them off the ground.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Turn it around, you put it in, you scoop them up. No, I can't relate.

• 34:11Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, same.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  So if you're at that point, then you might find you want some structure in your skin too. And if you want structure in your skin, you need to go and see someone for an injectable. And we don't have to be afraid of it. Botox and filler are not a big deal in the world of injectables. If, and I'm not talking facelifts and threads and anything that's super invasive. I mean, you know, a botox needle is like this big and it's tiny. You don't feel it, you know?

• 34:35Fearne Cotton?

  I've never had any of it. I'm sort of scared about the whole.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Why?

• 34:39Fearne Cotton?

  Thing. I don't know. I don't know.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  I'm not saying it.

• 34:41Fearne Cotton?

  Slippery slope of.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  I don't think it's a slippery slope for most people. I really don't. I think you, it's a worry of will this lead to something? If you know yourself, that's not going to lead to something, you know? Are you obsessive about your hair? Are you obsessive about your diet? Are you obsessive about the gym? And if you're not, if you're generally just, I'll do my best and then I'm going to chill and watch telly. You're going to be the same with your skin. Ah, not too shabby. That's what I aim for.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Not too shabby, higher ends, you've looked worse. That's, that's what I go for. If someone says, you look really well. I'm like, wow, what did I do today?

• 35:09Fearne Cotton?

  I'm recreating that tomorrow.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  I'm going to do that tomorrow. You know, I could go and get threads where they kind of stitch here and it pulls it all back. That just terrifies me. I don't want to be, I don't want big needles. I'm just, I would never have a facelift. People say never say never. I'm like, no, I'm telling you, I would never have.

• 35:24Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  That's just me. If you want to, I see people who've had brilliant facelifts. I don't know if you noticed, because in, in the celeb world, a lot of people looked a lot fresher after Covid.

• 35:33Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, didn't they just?

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Hollywood was busy.

• 35:35Fearne Cotton?

  Hollywood was so buzzing.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Because you could still have medical.

• 35:39Fearne Cotton?

  Ah.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  You could travel for medical.

• 35:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  So there were private planes going to Hollywood and there were a lot of facelifts going on.

• 35:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  People who looked really relaxed after Covid was just like a.

• 35:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, n- not many of us, but those ones.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:51Fearne Cotton?

  Super relaxed.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Yes, super relaxed. I was like, can someone please pick up my neck? Big fat Greek wedding. Can we just do a bit of that, please? No, smile is good. I'll have a bit of that, please.

• 36:03Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  So if you want to change the structure of your skin, like you'll, you'll tend to be, this is the jowly bit. What happens is the aging triangle is like this. So your kids, especially your daughter and my daughter, her smile is like this. When they smile, it's all lifted, the cheeks come out.

• 36:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, heaven.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  As you get older, it droops a bit. So when you smile, you're more notice that the triangle is upside down. That's the aging triangle and that is just mother nature.

• 36:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  You can prolong, you know, you can sort of move that over and it doesn't have to happen as quickly. That is either a bit of botox or a bit of filler and botox, whatever you want to do. And it's not the permanent filler of the old days where people would have duck lips and, you know, it's dissolvable and there's no need to panic. I sound like I'm endorsing it, I'm just trying to give the information.

• 36:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  If you are worried about the texture of your skin or the colour of your skin, that you can do with skincare.

• 36:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  And that you don't need to go and see a really expensive doctor for. You know, that you can do with over the counter. You can go into, you can go online, you can go into a, a store. And that is where you can change, sort of the texture would be acids and retinoids. And then the glow would be vitamin Cs, acids, vitamin Cs, that kind of thing. And oils, like facial oils on a woman over forty. I can ma- I can take someone from looking like they've just been dug up to with a, have a glow within five minutes, it's easy.

• 37:20Fearne Cotton?

  With oil?

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, quick cleanse, quick acid. Oil, moisturiser, you look in the mirror, they're like.

• 37:27Fearne Cotton?

  Moisturiser on top of oil?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:29Fearne Cotton?

  Really? I've never done that.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, no one does that. And I, it's a sandwich. It's perfect.

• 37:33Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 37:33Speaker 02

  It's like a sandwich.

• 37:34Fearne Cotton?

  Are you wearing that in the day?

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:36Fearne Cotton?

  Or is that before bed?

• 37:36Speaker 02

  If you're gonna wear oil in the day, you have to put it under your moisturiser because it can interfere with your makeup and your SPF.

• 37:40Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  So SPF is like, yeah, it can interfere with the SPF, but God forbid it interferes with your foundation.

• 37:44Fearne Cotton?

  No, Christ no. That needs to be perfect.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  I, I only talk like with our oil, it's one pump. It's a tiny amount in your hands, over, and then, don't forget, it's the same with makeup application. The first place you put your hands on your skin is where you're gonna deposit the most product. So with oil, you want it to go cheek. Don't do this. You're already oily here, here and here. T-zone for a reason. You want it cheeks. Especially if you're a certain age. If you can highlight and lift this area of your face as a woman. I'm gonna say over forty.

• 38:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Just to be safe, over forty. And it does not matter. I, I see women all the time. There's a, there's, you know, people I know, I nearly said their name then they'll be like, what are you doing? There are people I know.

• 38:23Fearne Cotton?

  Outing them.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, outing them who say, well, I've still got all my periods. I'm like, but you're in your fifties. I'm telling you, your oestrogen, it doesn't matter. Go and get yourself sorted. Get HRT. Life changing.

• 38:34Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Putting that oestrogen back in your body makes everything go, oh, oh, oh, we're a bit bouncy again. Oh, we don't look dead.

• 38:40Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I guess this is also the other side of the, um, conversation is there's the topical element, which we're talking about here, which is what we can actually do and apply to our skin to give ourselves a better chance of looking healthy and glowy. But what, that's the topical element. But what about the inside out job? How much do stress and diet impact our skin?

• 38:59Speaker 02

  The big ones are smoking, alcohol. Alcohol is a killer for your skin, your health, your mood, especially if you are perimenopausal.

• 39:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  I don't even.

• 39:08Fearne Cotton?

  Two Nogronis last night.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  I don't even mess about. I'm like, I can't, if I'm gonna have it, I need to write off my sleep and the next day and it's not worth it.

• 39:15Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  And you, you can see it on your face. You just look, you look like, oh, you could be on holiday for a week, go on a bender the last night of your holiday and wake up looking like shit.

• 39:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  You know, it's not worth it for me. So, and also since my mum died, if I drink alcohol, it's a depressive for me.

• 39:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think you have to know yourself and what drinks work and what stains.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  I used to be the happy drunk who'd be like, you know, like, woo, have too many drinks and then I fall over and I'm loving everyone and I'm happy and then I throw up and I go home like everyone else. I've done that in a long time. I can't do that.

• 39:42Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no. You have to know yourself.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Alcohol's not great. Smoking is terrible. Like, why would you? And vaping is just as bad.

• 39:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Don't kid yourselves.

• 39:49Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  You know, if your kid is vaping, pull it out of their hand.

• 39:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  This is not the time to do gentle parenting and use your indoor voices. Get that vape out of their hand.

• 39:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Vaping, smoking, alcohol. And then diet wise, honestly, it really, if you're eating tons and tons and tons of sugar, you're gonna feel like crap.

• 40:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Ultimately, your skin is gonna come down to your genetics, the stuff you're doing to abuse it. Like, are you taking care of it? And by that, I don't mean a fifty-seven step routine. I just mean, do you sleep in your makeup regularly? Do you not really use skincare for your skin type? Are you someone who thinks it's all a load of bollocks? But actually, if you look at your face, you've got a face like a leather handbag.

• 40:25Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  So when people say it to me, I have no judgment. I've got a really good sales face. I'm just like, oh, I'm so glad that you feel that way about your skin. It's good that you're self-confident, because your face looks like a crocodile. But I don't say that. No.

• 40:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's the internal monologue.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  In the old days, in Liverpool, my mum's friend on the counter in Liverpool said, I don't know who she thinks she is. The lions are queuing up on her neck to get on her face.

• 40:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's like this.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Freaking. And I'm like, oh, can't say that in twenty twenty-four.

• 40:51Fearne Cotton?

  You can't, you can't.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  But it's always in my head. I always have, I always have the voice in my head laughing, like, self-confidence is fantastic. You do you.

• 40:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you do you. You do you. What are the absolute no-nos? Because again, I think there's misinformation in terms of what we should and shouldn't be doing. So we're saying wearing makeup at night time is not a great idea.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't sleep in your makeup. Wash your face.

• 41:10Fearne Cotton?

  Wash your face.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  If you're gonna brush your teeth, wash your face. If you're not gonna brush your teeth, what's wrong with you?

• 41:13Fearne Cotton?

  And then I heard you say something the other day about don't use, uh, don't clean your face in the shower, because the water's too hot.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  I never clean my face in the shower. My face doesn't go under the shower.

• 41:21Fearne Cotton?

  So what, why do we not do that?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Because most of us have the water too hot for our face. And if the water is too hot, and because your body can take it, but your face can't. You'll get broken capillaries, you'll get the red flush. If you come out the shower and your cheeks are red and flushed, you need to turn the heat down. That's not the goal.

• 41:37Fearne Cotton?

  I love a hot shower. Okay, what a bummer.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Don't put your face in it then.

• 41:39Fearne Cotton?

  I'm changing that, okay.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  I always, I said in the early days and I still say, you have to stand as if the shower has greatly offended you. Like a movie and you wash your hair from behind, like an old Timothée ad.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, okay, I'm gonna do that.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, just do it from behind.

• 41:48Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, okay, see, I didn't know that. That's, that's all you need to me.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Only because most, if you have a tepid shower, knock yourself out.

• 41:53Fearne Cotton?

  I do not. I have a boiling, scalding shower.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  A hot shower and it's too hot for your face.

• 41:57Fearne Cotton?

  It's too hot. Um, I really wanna also quiz you about.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  I'm feeling the pressure, sweating.

• 42:04Fearne Cotton?

  No, there's no pressure. It's all questions about you and you know the answers to all of them. But it's so impressive how, you know, when we go back to what we've just talked about, starting on the counter at Harvey Nix to where you are now and having your own brand and this beautiful business that is thriving and growing at such a rate. How do you find that? I mean, there aren't enough female founders. We know that for a start. They're still hugely uninvested in.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:28Fearne Cotton?

  And there is a lot of pressure for women to almost sort of, I don't believe that we should, but prove ourselves that we can run businesses. I'm trying to do exactly the same with Happy Place. But if we're honest, the pressure is immense because I'm imagining like me, you're pretty ambitious. I'm very open about that. I'm really ambitious. I've got lots of things I'd like to do, lots of goals. I wanna, you know, grow and expand and challenge myself in really healthy ways. But I don't wanna feel depleted and stressed out and not be able to be present in my family home, have time with my friends, have fun. There is still that toxic sort of trope that women can have it all, which I don't believe.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  No one can have it all. You know, I always say women have it all to do.

• 43:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  We have it all to do and we take on more and more. And I've only, it's only recently I've been like, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. Turning 50 is big and turning 55 is mega. Like, I've never been happier in my own skin.

• 43:23Fearne Cotton?

  I literally can't wait.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  I know. I've never been happier in my own skin. You know, the Helen Mirren thing of when she turned 17, people said, do you have any regrets? She went, yes, I wish I told many more people to fuck off.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  I took that to heart and I'm like, got it. And I've done that ever since. Done.

• 43:36Fearne Cotton?

  So that's about setting really clear boundaries, saying what you're not gonna do, not people pleasing anymore.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then like also not rescuing people, like my husband, my kids and mum can, no, I can't. You can do it. No, you're 30, you do it. No, you're 20, you do it. No, Mum, do you know where this is? Yes, I do. And you also know where it is because I've told you. Goodbye.

• 43:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Like, no, because they're never going to learn. My husband, you know, love, do you know where? Yes, I do. And so do you.

• 43:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Bye. Because when you're younger, you're like, I'll just do it. It's quicker. I don't do that anymore. It might be quicker for them.

• 44:04Fearne Cotton?

  And does that cross over into how you run your business? Are you very clear with how it's running and who's doing what?

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. No, we've got a full team. So, you know, there's forty five of us and it's, it's mega. It's a big operation. But I've got Al, who's my M D. She's like my right hand, my left hand. And we're both very, nope, not doing that. It was just very, it's very easy to say no. The older you get, the easier it is to say no. I remember I went to see, um, Abba Voyage again this year. And Benny and Bjorn were there and I watched a TV interview just after and they said, it's a shame the girls aren't here. And they said, when you are seventy six, it's very easy to say no to everything. And I was like, I get it.

• 44:37Fearne Cotton?

  Of course, just send the hologram in.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  They don't like, and Yetta doesn't want to be famous and Anna Free doesn't like to travel. Why would you? You're Abba. You don't need to.

• 44:43Fearne Cotton?

  You don't need to.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  We're gonna go anyway, love.

• 44:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, correct. You need Abba energy. That's what we need.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  We're coming anyway, whether you're there or not.

• 44:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  You stay in Stockholm and relax, babe. You've earned it.

• 44:53Fearne Cotton?

  Too right.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  And so, you know, we say no. But when I say yes to things, it has to be the intention of what am I getting out of it? What are they getting out of it? Is my position being respected? Am I being exploited? Is anyone else being exploited? No, we're good. It's kind of, everything becomes much simpler as you get older, I think.

• 45:08Fearne Cotton?

  I think so.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  I wouldn't be twenty five again if you paid me.

• 45:10Fearne Cotton?

  No, same. What about the pressure you put yourself under?

• 45:13Speaker 02

  That's a different story.

• 45:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you want to grow the business and you want it to be.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  It's not even, it's not even now that I want to grow the business. Now I feel like I've got forty five other people and other mouths to feed. And so I have to grow the business. So now I've taken on the responsibility of, I, my employees are like family. And I never do anything that could put their positions in jeopardy.

• 45:35Fearne Cotton?

  Which is a big lot of pressure on your shoulders.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  I've got big shoulders. It's fine.

• 45:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Well, I'd rather do that than work in corporate any day.

• 45:42Fearne Cotton?

  What about the other side of it? Relaxing, having balance. Are you good at that?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  I think if you want balance, you shouldn't have your own business, personally. If you, if you, if you have, if you're, especially if you're a woman and you've got kids and a husband and you've got your own business, your life is not going to be balanced. The more you accept it, the easier it's going to be for you. Because all you're going to do is give yourself stress and worry and anxiety. I mean, I've no, I never heard the A word. Until the last like five, six, seven years, anxiety. I was just like, what's everyone stressed about? Like chill, you know? I just don't. I'm a Gen X and people joke and there's memes on TikTok all the time, but they're true. You know, our mums didn't know where we were. We didn't have a phone. It was being when it comes dark.

• 46:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  And if it went dark and you weren't home, woe betide you if someone else's mum had to call you.

• 46:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Your mum's looking for you. Oh shit.

• 46:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Eighties parenting was so good.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Eighties parenting. Was it parenting?

• 46:33Fearne Cotton?

  No, just a bit of survival.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  You know, there's that thing where it's like, did you really have to drink out the hose? Why don't you use the tap? Because we weren't allowed in the house. That's true. You'd go home, they're like, what are you doing in? Get out, get out. Go and do something with your time. So we didn't really, I think modern, the modern world has put a lot of more pressure on young people that I don't think needs to be there. And I think that causes a lot of anxiety that we just didn't have because no one would have given a shit if we did have it anyway.

• 46:57Fearne Cotton?

  No, I agree. But I think it's also so refreshing to say, if you want to run your own business and you want it to be really fucking successful.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  You're gonna be tired.

• 47:04Fearne Cotton?

  You're gonna be tired. You're not gonna, I mean, I'm living and breathing it. And I also weirdly don't have a problem with it. I don't actually like relaxing.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  No. Going on a spa trip is my idea of hell.

• 47:15Fearne Cotton?

  Boring.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  So boring. I, we went away to Italy and I said to Jim, this is the last time I'm doing this. I can't do it. He's sitting by the pool. He's like a dolphin. He's loving it. He's in the pool. He's chatting. He's like a dolphin. He's in and out of the water. I'm like, Jesus Christ, you've never had this much energy at home. I'm like, all right, pipe down. So he's on the bed next to me. Oh, another beer, senior, senior. And they're all talking to him because they're sexist pigs. You know, it's just like, the Italians in Sicily especially, they talk to the man. If I went to the pool earlier, they wouldn't even feed me unless Jim turned up. And I'd have to be there like, hello, I'm paying the bill. It's booked in my name, but you talk to him.

• 47:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Whole thing. So I'm raging. I'm like, I'm not coming here again. I'm too hot. I'm not gonna, I don't want a suntan. I'm not 18 anymore. You're getting on my nerves because you've got loads of energy. And when we get home, you sit your ass on the sofa. Like, it was a whole thing. And he was like, but it's beautiful. Look where I'm, I can see it's beautiful, but I'm bored. So on day one, we arrive on like the Saturday, on the Monday morning, I'm texting the office. He's like, you're working. I'm like, yeah. I'm relaxing. I'm happy. Leave me alone. He's like, whatever.

• 48:07Fearne Cotton?

  But if it makes you happy, I'm a worker bee. I love brainstorming in my free time. I'll create a project out of thin air if I feel like I'm not doing enough. I, I, that's just how I am. And I think it's really difficult when that messaging is sort of shoved down our throat that we've got to find this balance and we've got to have time out or whatever.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  I agree. Other people telling me I need to relax stresses me out.

• 48:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  I'm fine. Fuck off. Mind your own business. I'm fine. Do I look stressed? That's because I am, but I quite thrive off it. I've got ADHD. This is my natural state.

• 48:36Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  When I've had caffeine is when you need to worry. Just got you do you like if you need to do a fucking sound bath and yoga, you do you. I did yoga years ago and it was really good for my back. I wish I could get back into it at the moment. I still do it and Rocky's going to be watching this because I did a yoga retreat last year. I was bored out my mind and I love her dearly and she knows she's like, you're going to come back. I'm like, no. And it was also vegan. I wanted to kill myself. It was horrendous. I mean, I, I do love a bit of yoga. But I've never done a retreat and do you know why? There's a bit, there's something in me that is absolutely terrified of the thought of having three days where I'm not under that pressure. I'm not working and I'm just doing a yoga. Yeah, I don't know. I did well. I don't know if I could do it.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  For what it was, it was wonderful and my mum hadn't long died. We'd only just had the funeral and I needed it. It was good. And I went with Ava and Ava's a complete, Ava does headstands and all this shit, the split, all of it. I can't. Now I'm like, well, it's really impressive that I gave birth to you. I'm just going to leave it there. Yeah. You know, the split. She's like, mum, you can, I'm like, no, it's not going to happen, but I'm bendy. I'll just leave it at bendy. Yeah, bendy. I don't need to do the split head. No, you know, but if that is what relaxes you, go with God. Yeah. I relax by making a brew, putting SVU on, lying on the sofa. If I'm horizontal and my telly's on and I've got my phone in my hand, I'm as chilled as it gets. Yeah. I might still be working, but my brain is entertained by the TV. Yellowstone. I don't have the phone in my hand. I'm like this. That's your, that's your jam. I'm literally. Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  And then I'm like, oh my God, I'm so stressed. Maybe I should check the phone. Oh, so telly, I'm chill. Yeah. That's all I need. People are like, oh, you must read a good book. I'm like, no, I can't. I have a pile of books that I still buy and I cannot sit and read. Ruth Crilly, my girlfriend, wrote How Not To Be A Supermodel. I read the bits I wanted to read that I was interested in because I was going to interview her for the pod. And I was like, she went, you haven't read it, have you? I went, no, I haven't read the whole thing. I'm not going to. No, I'm not. I went, I know all your stories. I read the ones I didn't know and I read about how you met Rich because that cheered me up and I know him and it was very entertaining. She's just like, I don't get you. I'm like, because she just reads book after book. Yeah, I'm a book, I'm a bookie book. I absolutely, that for me is completely escapism, but you've got to find. Some people go to the movies. Thing. I like to go to the pictures. Last time I think I went was James Bond or Barbie. Cinema. I'll go to the.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Cinema, if it's like James Bond, Barbie, I'll probably go and see Wicked. But three hours without the kettle and a toilet break is a push.

• 50:55Fearne Cotton?

  No, I I haven't been to this cinema. I can't, I couldn't tell you last, I could not tell you the last time, but people go every day. I mean, one of my guys in work took a week off work to do the London Film Festival. He did twenty eight films in a week and I'm like, are you okay? My arse would be numb. I couldn't do it. I think you've got to find your own flow. Like, my mum says to me constantly, oh, you're working too hard. I know she's just being very lovely and loving, I'm not slagging old Lynn off, we love Lynn.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  My mum would say.

• 51:17Fearne Cotton?

  But she's constantly like, oh, you're doing too much. It's like, I am so much happier.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Do I look like I'm unhappy?

• 51:22Fearne Cotton?

  I'm busy and thriving and doing things that I love.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  I think now at my age, it's the best thing for your kids to see you doing.

• 51:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely the best thing for your kids to see. I have two worlds. I have my family.

• 51:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Which is always number one, kids, grandkids, different level.

• 51:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Babies, we're all obsessed.

• 51:38Fearne Cotton?

  Heaven.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Family, right? And then I have what I do with my life. It's not work, it's what I do. And that is the difference. I don't feel like I have a job. It's what I'm doing with my life and I love it and I would not change a thing. I'll take all the stress. I'll take the sleepless nights, which I don't really get many sleepless nights. If I think, oh, this is going to keep me up, I'll pop a pill. I don't care.

• 51:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Get me to sleep so I can get up in the morning and function again. And that's it. So when people are like, you know, what do you want life balance? I'm like, oh, I don't have one.

• 52:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Like, literally.

• 52:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  I will, I mean, I went to Glastonbury for the first time last year. I fucking hated it with every part of my body. I hate it. And I was in the VIP bit. I bought a VIP ticket. Thank you for my lovely friend, who I won't name drop. We went, but my two boys, best time of their lives. And I was like, there is a reason that you love it. Jim, in the middle of the Foo Fighters. Jim's standing there and he went, I'm going to the bar, I'll meet you back there. He couldn't give a shit. He's gone. We went, we didn't, we didn't go back to see anyone else. We went for one day, saw the Foos and then fucked off home. Left the boys there.

• 52:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Left them there.

• 52:41Fearne Cotton?

  I haven't been for a very long time. I find it too overwhelming now.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  With my age, now I get why. Now I get why. But I tried it.

• 52:48Fearne Cotton?

  You've done it.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  But my mates love it. They go over a year. I'm like, how? Do you sleep in a camper van for a week?

• 52:53Fearne Cotton?

  Absolutely not.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  What do you do for a shower? And they're like, oh, no, no, you've got your own, you've got a shower. And I'm like, yeah, but you still have to share it with other people. No. And that's just my thing. But I love that, that I would never, and I love that they love it.

• 53:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  You do, I'm so happy for you that you love it.

• 53:08Fearne Cotton?

  You do you and I'll do me over here.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  I will be in Claridge's.

• 53:11Fearne Cotton?

  I'll be in Claridge's. Probably do some emails, babes.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Maybe in the foyer.

• 53:15Fearne Cotton?

  Maybe in the foyer.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Nice little brew, you know.

• 53:18Fearne Cotton?

  I'm good. You're good.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm just joking. I don't actually live in Claridge's, just putting that out there.

• 53:22Fearne Cotton?

  Would you say, actually, this is my last question, that that would be your happy place?

• 53:27Speaker 02

  I was literally gonna say, I think Claridge's is one of my happy places. I feel like nothing bad can happen in Claridge's.

• 53:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 53:32Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, I do.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  I do. Like, the minute you walk in, and it's not like I've spent a lot of time there, but, you know, a lot of press things happen there and you walk in and you're like, oh, this is nice. But no, my happy place is on the sofa, in front of the, in front of the TV, the odd kid running around, you know, a baby, the big ones can get out of the way and make a brew. Because the good thing is, you know, your teenagers eventually become grown-ups, they give you grandchildren and they can make tea.

• 53:53Fearne Cotton?

  Love.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Happy place, happy days. So my happy place is at home on the sofa.

• 53:58Fearne Cotton?

  It's a perfect one.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Or pottering around the kitchen, but generally, if I'm in my corner, I've got an L shape, if I'm in the corner, my butt is sat down and I've got a brew in my hands, you're probably not gonna make me happier.

• 54:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's the best. I love being on the sofa, watching telly.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  I know, just watching TV. And then, like, nice early night, nothing fancy planned, I, I can't be doing with the,

• 54:17Fearne Cotton?

  It's the best.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  I mean, nightclubs and I just got back from a press trip to Vegas to see Adele. Did you see me in the nightclub? Because it's not for me, phone. I can't do it.

• 54:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's not.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  I can't do it.

• 54:27Fearne Cotton?

  It's not.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  And all the other younger, much younger, who I could have given birth to all of them, all the other younger influencers are like, no, we're gonna go better, we're going to the casino. I'm like, well, they clearly made the right choice. I was raging. I was like, why am I here on my own? Where is everyone? I thought I had to be here.

• 54:40Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  I went to bed.

• 54:42Fearne Cotton?

  Well done for giving it a try.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  I mean, I walked in and went, fuck this. Basically, they stamped my hand and I'm like, what is it, 1983? What is happening?

• 54:48Fearne Cotton?

  Nothing's changed.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  I was like, trying to scrub it. I'm like, why can't I get this off? It's like, my mum's gonna find out I've been to a club. No, it's not for me, but,

• 54:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's the sofa all the way.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  There were people in there that were loving it. I didn't get it, but I love that you love it.

• 55:00Fearne Cotton?

  We're all different and we need to embrace that.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  And go, go for it.

• 55:04Fearne Cotton?

  And go forth and go forth. Well, I, I've loved talking to you.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 55:10Fearne Cotton?

  And I love, love what you're doing and I think it's so impressive with your whole business model and what you're putting out on socials. It's just brilliant, so.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. What an honour.

• 55:20Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you for being on. Oh, thanks Caroline. Never will I wash my face in the shower again. That is a new one for me. I'm having to like learn to tip my head back and not get it underwater. I used to love putting my face in hot water, but the capillaries didn't. My old broken capillaries, they weren't such a fan. So I'm changing my ways everyone. Thanks Caroline, you're the best. Now, next week I'll be back with a really jolly one. We're gonna have a great time. So make sure you're following the podcast wherever you're listening to this right now, so you can definitely catch up then. And of course, as ever, I love having an atter with you on Instagram during the week. We're at happyplaceofficial. Until next time, you beautiful people. A huge thanks to Caroline, to the producer Anushka

• 56:03Fearne Cotton?

  Tait at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you're completely gorgeous.

• 56:35Speaker 06

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• 57:39Speaker 06

  Taking a shower, I used some spray deodorant that belonged to his mother from the cupboard. He took a big sniff of me and says, "Mmm, smells like sex." Cast your personal question? Yes. Do your balls ever just float back up? What? What? Burnley playing Millwall the way I got home, my brother's coming down like a Millwall. Oh god. Yeah, I can't go because I'm going to a matinee of Pride the Musical.

• 58:04Speaker 06

  Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.