Pod Insights British Scandal Anne Boleyn | The Great Matter | 2 About this episode Anne and Henry face two tiny obstacles: his wife and the Pope. As they plot to dethrone a queen and secure a divorce, Anne discovers crowns come with catches.
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Transcript 8,109 words · 17 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:13 Matt Forde? Alice, why is it dark in here? And why are you wearing a cloak?
0:17 Speaker 02 Come, sit, Matt.
0:19 Matt Forde? Um, okay.
0:20 Speaker 02 Place your palm in mine.
0:22 Matt Forde? Okay.
0:23 Speaker 02 Clammy.
0:25 Matt Forde? It's warm in here.
0:27 Speaker 02 I have the gift, Matt. I have the third eye.
0:31 Matt Forde? Okay, read my fortune then.
0:33 Speaker 02 Tracing this line, I can see the next show you do will involve a scandal. It might be about sex, it might be about money, but it will definitely be about power.
0:48 Matt Forde? That's just the intro to the show. Come on, you've got to do better than that.
0:52 Speaker 02 Very well. You have but weeks.
0:57 Matt Forde? Okay, it's fairly dark because a couple of years ago, that felt like a definite possibility. Um...
1:02 Speaker 02 I regret saying that. You're right. This was an off-colour joke.
1:07 Matt Forde? But, I mean, you've got the cloak and everything. I don't know whether you're... Shall I go to the hospital?
1:13 Speaker 02 I regret starting this bit.
1:15 Matt Forde? Okay, I'm gonna call my wife.
1:16 Speaker 02 Unsure if this joke is too much for the audience.
1:20 Matt Forde? Well, I won't be around to find out, so...
1:23 Speaker 02 Quite.
1:28 Matt Forde? November 1532, the Collegiate Church of St Peter, Westminster.
1:35 Matt Forde? Henry stands in the grand entrance, his hand firmly placed on the small of Anne's back. He pushes his chest out, excited to greet his subjects, as the heavy oak doors are pushed open.
1:49 Matt Forde? But his chest tightens when he steps out to jeers and boos from a large crowd.
1:55 Alice Levine? Goggle-eyed whore! I don't know if this is the moment for ad-libs.
1:58 Matt Forde? I shouldn't have said it just as you walked in.
2:02 Alice Levine? God save Queen Catherine!
2:04 Matt Forde? Henry's guards rush forward, pikes raised, creating a pathway. As Henry leads Anne through it, a glob of spittle lands inches from her gown. Henry tries to keep his temper as her chin quivers. Pay them no mind, my sweet. They will learn to love you as I do.
2:25 Matt Forde? But he flinches as a dark shadow cuts through the crowd, and a woman drops to her knees in front of him. Henry takes in her black veil, her sunken eyes. Remove her! But then, he hears her utter.
2:41 Speaker 03 Your Majesty, I bring a warning from God himself.
2:46 Matt Forde? Her desperate eyes burn into Henry's. He feels a shudder run down his spine. He hesitates, then raises a hand to stay the guards.
2:58 Matt Forde? What warning, woman? When she speaks again, it's with eerie conviction.
3:05 Speaker 03 Your lust for this concubine comes at a price. If you take her as your wife, you shall die within a month, and a great plague shall befall England, wiping out the sinful and righteous alike.
3:18 Matt Forde? Henry's mouth goes bone-dry as he drops Anne's hand. She's clearly mad, Henry. Come. But he's rooted to the spot.
3:28 Speaker 03 You shall die within a month, and a great plague shall befall England!
3:35 Matt Forde? He snapped back to reality by Anne's gentle voice. The people will come to accept me when we are married and I am properly crowned, when I give you a son. Henry forces a smile. He wants to believe that. He loves Anne. He's changed everything for her, gone against the wishes of his most trusted advisers, even put England's future on the line. But for the first time, he starts to wonder if he's done the right thing. If it's not too late to cast Anne aside, beg the Pope's forgiveness and return to his true queen. Return to the path of righteousness before he damns his entire kingdom... to hell.
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5:20 Matt Forde? From Wondery, I'm Matt Ford.
5:21 Alice Levine? And I'm Alice Levine.
5:23 Matt Forde? And this is British Scandal.
5:33 Matt Forde? Okay, Alice, we're an episode in now and we've covered this in more detail than we will have done in primary school history. So has anything surprised you about Anne?
5:43 Alice Levine? So obviously, Anne Boleyn is a character that has been depicted in lots of fictional settings, and I think she's always shown to be this scheming seducer, a kind of beauty that catches the king's eye. Yes, she is seductive, but she is such a shrewd power player, political player, really. She knows that she has value and that in itself is very out of lockstep with the time. Her peers would have been pawns in their father's strategies to get ahead, but she just has this unique charisma and this unique confidence that really sets her apart.
6:19 Matt Forde? So Anne's got a plan and the skills, it looks like, to perhaps see that through. What about Henry VIII?
6:26 Alice Levine? So I'm really surprised in this story about Henry, because in comparison, he's somebody who is led by emotion, whether it's lust, or rage, or just his ego and pride. In many ways, he feels foolish, and at times naive, definitely fickle, and his head is so easily turned, whereas before I would have seen him as the power player, rather than the person played by the power players.
6:54 Matt Forde? You say that, but he is in a difficult position. He does have to placate a number of people. He still has to defer to Rome on a whole range of issues, so he hasn't even got complete authority over England, and trying to extricate himself from that marriage to Catherine is just admin hell. It is a constitutional crisis. But I can see why he's willing to take those problems on, because he is desperate for a male heir, and he's hoping Anne will be the one to provide it for him.
7:21 Alice Levine? She's young, she's beautiful, they're in love. What could possibly go wrong?
7:27 Matt Forde? Well, this is episode two, The Great Matter.
7:34 Matt Forde? Three years earlier, June 1529, the Queen's Chamber, Greenwich Palace, London.
7:42 Matt Forde? Catherine kneels at her prayer stool. She kisses the rosary wrapped around her fingers, whispers the words that are so familiar to her. Ave Maria, gratia plena, dominus tecum, benedicta tu in mulieribus.
7:57 Alice Levine? Obviously, I know what that means, that's a given, but for those that don't...
8:01 Matt Forde? This is the Hail Mary prayer. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
8:06 Alice Levine? Banger, absolute banger.
8:08 Matt Forde? Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us in this now and at the hour of our death.
8:11 Alice Levine? Beautiful, that's just in there.
8:13 Matt Forde? Christian boy.
8:14 Alice Levine? You're going home with that.
8:15 Matt Forde? Well, Christian by trade.
8:19 Matt Forde? I was an altar boy as a kid. Don't think this was my last, is it right to call it shift?
8:25 Alice Levine? Gig?
8:26 Matt Forde? Gig, exactly. I spewed on the altar.
8:29 Alice Levine? No, you didn't.
8:30 Matt Forde? Yeah. Um, I think I did a few more after that, but my memory is that that kind of was the beginning of the end for me. And actually, the vicar that I was the altar boy for really looked like Henry VIII. He was a rotund ginger man with a big beard. In fact, I remember why we didn't go back now. So, all the listeners may remember when Parliament legislated to allow female vicars in the Church of England. And this guy did not like it. And in the pulpit, he said, there'd be a female vicar in this parish over my dead body. My mum and one of the other mums was like, right, we're leaving, and just walked out. We never went back.
9:09 Alice Levine? Good for your mum.
9:10 Matt Forde? Yeah.
9:11 Alice Levine? Love that. And you never stepped foot there again.
9:13 Matt Forde? We never set foot back in that church ever again.
9:18 Matt Forde? Catherine looks up as the door creaks open to find Cardinal Wolsey standing before her. She darkens as he gives his usual smug smile, knowing it lacks any sincerity. What makes you disturb me at prayer, Cardinal?
9:35 Matt Forde? I bring news from Rome. The Pope is still reluctant to rule decisively. Catherine allows herself a thin smile. Henry has been begging the Pope to grant him a divorce, and for two years he's refused. This is not news. I fail to see how His Majesty grows impatient. And I must once again ask Catherine's snaps. If the King wishes to ask anything, he should come in person and not send his dog. Catherine is bolstered by Wolsey's fading smile. Perhaps it's your incompetence Henry tires of, rather than his wife.
10:12 Alice Levine? She has got zingers for days today.
10:15 Matt Forde? Wolsey almost hisses back at her. There is an obvious solution if you will accept my help.
10:23 Matt Forde? Catherine studies Wolsey now. She's never trusted this man, but she knows he is a canny operator. Her nephew, Spain's emperor, still has a tight hold over Rome. The last thing the Cardinal wants is to alienate England's allies. She forces a conciliatory tone. Go on, Your Grace. If Your Majesty were to simply acknowledge the invalidity of your marriage and retire to a nunnery. Catherine blinks, disbelieving. You, you want me to hide away in shame, as if in disgrace? It would not be like that, Your Majesty. The King would provide a generous settlement.
11:04 Alice Levine? Not loads of places to spend a generous settlement in a nunnery. What are you weighing those Bible pages down with? Gold bullion, I've got nothing else to do with it. I mean, I was propping up the door, uh, I'm sleeping on it, because I, I don't know where to store it.
11:18 Matt Forde? Catherine's face reddens. Never, I am Henry's wife before God. Wolsey's expression hardens, the mask of empathy falling away. Then I am forced to proceed with more drastic action. A representative from Rome arrives tomorrow to oversee a legate in court that will hear the King's argument and rule on the great matter once and for all. Then, I must present my case. But Wolsey cuts in. Women are forbidden to testify in such matters. Catherine's hands clench into fists. I am not just any woman, I am the Queen of England.
11:58 Matt Forde? She stares into Wolsey's eyes. He looks away, almost ashamed. And in that moment, she realizes. She will not go quietly into the darkness. She will be heard, and she thinks she knows how.
12:19 Matt Forde? The following day, June 1529, the Great Hall, Blackfriars Priory.
12:28 Matt Forde? Cardinal Wolsey leads the king to a throne framed by a canopy of gold cloth. He glances across the sea of senior clergy and legal representatives. He needs this court to rule in favour of the king's greatest wish: to annul his marriage. Wolsey knows it's not just Catherine that the king grows impatient with. But he doesn't want Henry to testify. He's too emotional, too impulsive. Your Majesty, I must again ask: are you sure you want to speak? I am more than happy to lay out your case for you, and- Christ, Wolsey! I am king! I must have my say! Wolsey can only defer with a bow of the head.
13:11 Matt Forde? He turns to the judge's bench, where the Pope's representative, Cardinal Campeggio, drums his fingers impatiently. Your Grace, the purpose of this court is to resolve the great matter that has overshadowed the king's rule these past years. Wolsey casts his eyes around the hundred-foot hall, with its vaulted ceilings and grand religious tapestries. He feels that God himself is looking down on him. I call His Majesty to provide testimony. Wolsey watches Henry cross the room to stand before Campeggio. He's about to begin, when whispers from the gallery above distract him. To his horror, Anne Boleyn glides into view.
13:56 Matt Forde? Her dark eyes briefly meet Wolsey's, expectant, demanding.
14:02 Alice Levine? Last women.
14:03 Matt Forde? I've been on the receiving end of many of those looks in this booth.
14:10 Matt Forde? He sees a giddy smile form on Henry's face. He wills his master to stay on script.
14:17 Speaker 06 I stand before God in this court with a troubled conscience. For nearly twenty years, I have lived in a union that scripture condemns.
14:28 Matt Forde? Walsey feels his shoulders relax as Henry speaks with pained conviction.
14:33 Speaker 06 My brother Arthur was joined in matrimony to Catherine. Upon his death, I was persuaded to take her as my wife. I did so only because I was promised by Catherine that she never lay with my brother.
14:47 Matt Forde? Walsey smiles as Henry takes the practice pause he advised the king to take.
14:52 Speaker 06 But now, I believe this to be a lie.
14:57 Speaker 03 Why do you believe that to be so, Your Majesty?
15:01 Speaker 06 I have recently heard from various courtiers that my late brother boasted of taking Catherine carnally on several occasions, including his wedding night.
15:11 Alice Levine? Don't say taken carnally, tonked.
15:15 Matt Forde? Encouraged by the king's spirited performance,
15:20 Matt Forde? Walsey unfurls a document with a dramatic flourish.
15:24 Speaker 03 I have here a statement from one of Arthur's most respected courtiers. It tells of how he emerged for breakfast the morning after his wedding.
15:35 Speaker 03 "Bring me a cup of ale," he said, "for I have been this night in the midst of Spain."
15:43 Alice Levine? Oh, Lord. I mean, I don't know what I thought 1500s show-offy kind of conquest locker room chat was like. This is how they're talking about the Queen of England. It feels like it's a contemporary tactic to take women, objectify them, and use their sexual behaviour as a tool to denigrate them.
16:08 Matt Forde? Walsey forces an earnest expression as Henry addresses Campeggio directly.
16:13 Speaker 06 Your Grace, without my knowledge, I committed a sin by taking my brother's wife. And I believe the lack of male heir to secure England's peace is God's judgment for it.
16:26 Matt Forde? Walsey glances at Campeggio, whose expression now betrays a hint of sympathy.
16:31 Speaker 06 I have only pursued this so relentlessly because...
16:35 Matt Forde? There's a loud thudding noise. Walsey freezes as Henry falls silent. Everyone turns their attention towards the far end of the hall. The room seems to vibrate with the sound coming from the large wooden doors. Walsey starts to rush towards them, but when they swing open, he stops in his tracks, his blood running cold. A silhouette appears, and her face is puce with rage.
17:10 Matt Forde? Seconds later, Catherine scans the great hall as she strides down the aisle, every pair of eyes fixed on her. But she won't let her nerves stop her. She only halts when she reaches the judge's bench and takes in Walsey's reddening face.
17:28 Speaker 07 Your Majesty, this is most irregular. You were not summoned to...
17:33 Matt Forde? I will not have my good name smeared in my absence, Cardinal.
17:38 Alice Levine? Yes, Catherine, because of course, this isn't just saying that the king was mistaken when he married Catherine. It's saying that she lied under religious oath that she hadn't consummated the marriage. It's calling her a sinner. So she's gone, fuck you, Walsey. You've said I can't be here. You've said women can't defend themselves in court. Forget the rules. I'm gonna be there and you're gonna have to say all of this to my face. Ultimate power move.
18:02 Matt Forde? If you're being put down by some Cardinal, you use your agency.
18:09 Alice Levine? Your life rules are so specific. For somebody, they'll be listening to this and they'll be like, yes, Matt, that is me.
18:15 Matt Forde? There are convents all over this country. You can hear them now, just a gentle whisper. Hear, hear. Hear, hear.
18:26 Matt Forde? Catherine feels her resolve harden, as she looks from a reeling waltz to a bemused Campeggio. Then she turns to face Henry, who looks stunned. She sinks to her knees, prostrates herself before him. "My lord, I appeal to your conscience to show me the compassion and the justice I deserve as your queen. As God is my witness, I have been a true, humble and obedient wife, ever conformable to your will and pleasure." Catherine looks deeply into Henry's eyes. He meets her gaze, unreadable. She braces herself to go on, when: "I must insist the queen is removed." "Dare you interrupt a queen, as she speaks to her husband?"
19:12 Matt Forde? Catherine is met by silence now. She stays on Henry, her eyes filled with sincerity. "I came to you as a true maid, untouched by man." Catherine drops her voice to a whisper. "You know this to be true, Henry. In your heart you know."
19:32 Matt Forde? Catherine feels a surge of hope, as his face softens. But then she follows his eyes, as they move to the gallery, and meet Anne's.
19:42 Speaker 06 "Madam, your appeals to sentiment do not overturn the laws of God."
19:48 Matt Forde? Catherine feels her pain turn to fury. She can't believe Henry would light her face, publicly betray her. She forces herself to her feet. "My lord Cardinal, these proceedings lack legitimacy. I am a Spanish princess and England's queen." Catherine turns her head, and looks directly at Anne. "This court has been assembled only to satisfy the king's lust. I do not recognize its authority to rule on matters concerning my marriage or my honor. I demand my case be heard in Rome, before the Holy Father himself."
20:29 Matt Forde? Catherine looks back at Campeggio. He laces his fingers and dips his head, deep in thought.
20:37 Matt Forde? After what seems like a lifetime, he addresses the room.
20:42 Speaker 03 The Queen's objection has merit under canon law. No judgment should be rendered in England that properly belongs to his holiness.
20:53 Matt Forde? Catherine allows herself the smallest smile. As she walks towards the exit, she hears a low hum of noise getting louder. When she steps through the doors, she's stunned by the sea of people before her, cheering. Catherine may have lost Henry's love for good today, but she has gained something else: the respect of her beloved subjects. So from now on, she won't just appeal to Rome. She'll also appeal to the English people for their support. And she won't stop until Anne is in the gutter where she belongs.
21:34 Matt Forde? The following day, York Place, London.
21:39 Matt Forde? Anne fidgets beside Henry as Cardinal Wolsey kneels submissively at the king's feet, his face etched with humility.
21:48 Matt Forde? Your Majesty, I beg you to forgive. The Queen caught us all unawares. Anne's lips curl in disgust. Catherine's defiant grandstanding happened on this man's watch, or worse was his doing. My love, I fear that is not true. She takes Henry's hand, lowers her voice, but makes sure Wolsey can hear. I have been told the Cardinal visited the Queen two nights ago. It explains how she knew of the hearing. She smiles as Henry shoots Wolsey a pained look. Is this true, Wolsey? Anne feels a frisson of satisfaction as Wolsey scrambles a response. Your Majesty, it was never my intention.
22:33 Matt Forde? I visited her to warn her off. Anne moves her hand to Henry's face, strokes his cheek. It was the latest visit of many. It seems the Cardinal has spent almost as much time at Catherine's court as your own. Anne allows her gaze to move to Wolsey, whose horror is evident. I have simply been passing on your displeasure, Your Majesty. Then why keep these visits from me, Wolsey? I, I am... Seizing her chance, Anne lands the killer blow.
23:08 Matt Forde? They have been in cahoots. It's the only explanation.
23:12 Alice Levine? Don't kid a kid a Walsey, you are playing with fire, my friend.
23:17 Matt Forde? She stares deeply into Henry's eyes now. I'm so sorry, darling. Anne holds her breath, then hides her glee as Henry's expression turns to fury. He rises from his throne, his vast shadow looming over Walsey.
23:34 Speaker 07 You will hand back the great seal, Thomas.
23:38 Matt Forde? Walsey's mouth drops open.
23:40 Speaker 07 Your Majesty, I beg of you. Then you will remove yourself from this place and return to your diocese in York. You should pray I do not decide to take that from you also.
23:54 Matt Forde? Anne can't help a small smile as Walsey backs from the room a broken man.
24:01 Alice Levine? This just shows you, even Henry's most trusted wives' servants, whoever is in his immediate orbit, your existence is so volatile. This must be happening all the time in court. People must be telling different people that you've said a certain thing or that your intentions are not honorable. And then your position in society and your family's future just crumbles.
24:27 Matt Forde? This is why after the Tudor period, we got the mock Tudor period, where you get to keep the architecture, but without the skullduggery.
24:36 Alice Levine? And you get to live in the suburbs.
24:40 Matt Forde? Anne isn't done yet. She reaches into her skirt pocket, removes a small book that was handed to her a few weeks ago. Her heart thudding, Anne places it in the king's hands.
24:55 Matt Forde? My darling, you should read this. I believe its ideas could deliver us the... Anne searches her mind for the right words. The freedom we crave without the pep's permission. Henry looks confused as he casts his eyes over the book's title. The Da Vinci Code?
25:19 Speaker 06 Obedience of a Christian man. What is this?
25:24 Matt Forde? A new religion, my love. A solution to our problems. One the Cardinal refused to share. But he's not a man of vision like you.
25:34 Alice Levine? Matt, without spoiling the story, because I'll probably see the film version, what is obedience of a Christian man?
25:40 Matt Forde? It's written by a guy called William Tyndale, who was a scholar and Bible translator. And this book was banned in England because it contained the radical belief that rulers shouldn't answer to Rome and the Pope, but directly to God. It was basically a radical Protestant belief.
25:57 Alice Levine? So this is a really dangerous reading list for her to suggest.
26:01 Matt Forde? Yeah, she also recommended The Satanic Verses and Lady Chatterley's Lover. Anne tightens her grip on Henry's hand as he looks from the book back to her, intrigued. This new way would give you all that you deserve. It would make you the most powerful king that ever lived. Henry's eyes widen. Anne knows the enormity of what she's doing. She knows that if the king is persuaded by what's written in this book, it could lead to England's break with Rome. But if he agrees, she will finally be rid of Catherine, have all the power and influence she craves, and become England's queen at last.
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28:04 Matt Forde? July 1529, Windsor Great Forest. Henry spurs his horse forward, breathing in the morning air. The thrill of the hunt pulses through him as his hounds run ahead. He glances sideways at his companion as he rabbits on, and feels a prickly irritation. But he promised Anne he'd meet this lowly secretary to discuss the book she gave him.
28:28 Speaker 07 Tyndale dares to speak of God plainly. It is no mere tract.
28:34 Matt Forde? Thomas Cromwell has none of the natural grace of the dukes he usually rides with. He slows his horse to a trot.
28:42 Speaker 06 It's radical nonsense. Anne gets these fanciful notions in her head, but as a mere woman, she doesn't have the attention to actually...
28:50 Alice Levine? I'll stop you there. You've said everything I need to know, absolutely correct. When will these women get an attention span?
28:57 Matt Forde? Alice, focus, come on. Pop your little mirror away. Let's work, please.
29:08 Matt Forde? Spotting a movement in the trees, Henry holds up a hand as Cromwell tries to reply. Henry's blood quickens at the sight of a giant stag. His fingertips reach for the crossbow on his saddle.
29:21 Speaker 07 God anointed kings to rule. Kings answer to God alone, not to Rome or any corrupt cardinals who bleed your treasury dry.
29:30 Matt Forde? Startled by Cromwell's voice, the stag disappears back into the forest. Henry glares at his companion, furious.
29:39 Speaker 06 You've cost me a fine kill, Master Cromwell. I've heard enough.
29:44 Matt Forde? Henry goes to spur his horse forward. He's stunned when Cromwell blocks his path.
29:51 Speaker 07 Forgive me, Your Majesty, but foreign authority should not interfere in English law, governance, or ecclesiastical matters.
29:59 Matt Forde? Henry fixes his eyes on Cromwell.
30:02 Speaker 07 If you had absolute power in England, you could do as you wish. Papal taxes alone would allow you to fight the wars you please.
30:11 Speaker 06 Wars?
30:13 Speaker 07 Breaking with Rome would bring vast resources under your control, both here and potentially abroad.
30:18 Matt Forde? Henry sighs, shakes his head.
30:21 Speaker 06 The people would never accept it. It would break our alliances with half of Europe. The Emperor would be at our throats.
30:30 Matt Forde? Cromwell leans forward. His eyes are blazed with conviction.
30:35 Speaker 07 The people will accept what their king decrees.
30:44 Matt Forde? Henry's head spins with the power, the possibilities. He's spent years grovelling to the Pope, and he's gotten nowhere.
30:53 Matt Forde? He glances in the direction of the hunting horn, smells blood in the air. For the first time, Henry allows himself to envision a future where no Pope, Emperor, or aging Spanish wife can thwart his will. Where he can create a new church, have riches beyond his wildest dreams, finally be with the woman he loves. Henry kicks his heels into his horse. Perhaps Thomas Cromwell is wiser than he first assumed. He beckons for him to follow, as he clenches his bow in his right hand, and gallops into the forest in pursuit of his next kill.
31:43 Matt Forde? Three years later, October 1532. The Great Hall, Greenwich Palace. Anne kneels before Henry on the dais. She tilts her chin up proudly, aware of every set of eyes upon her. An expectant hush falls as Henry raises his ceremonial sword.
32:03 Speaker 06 By the grace of God and the power vested in me, as supreme head of the Church of England, I hereby create thee, Anne Berlin, Marquess of Pembroke.
32:16 Matt Forde? Anne feels a thrill course through her as the sword touches her shoulders. She is the first woman in history to be given a hereditary title in her own right. No more can the insult of commoner be levelled at her. Henry has cut ties with Rome, become head of both church and state. Although she can't be made queen until his annulment is official in the courts, this is quite the consolation prize.
32:44 Matt Forde? Anne smiles as she returns to her chambers. She already feels taller, more regal. She catches sight of a note sitting on her bureau, unfolds it, expecting to find a message of congratulations. But her blood runs cold as she takes in a drawing that depicts Henry and Catherine sitting on matching thrones, beside a woman's headless body. bile catches in Anne's throat.
33:10 Alice Levine? This is ye olde hate mail.
33:12 Matt Forde? Yes, before vile Twitter trolls and bot farms, you had to stitch a tapestry
33:20 Matt Forde? depicting your enemies with no head.
33:23 Matt Forde? Anne spins around, scanning her ladies in waiting.
33:27 Matt Forde? Who brought this?
33:30 Matt Forde? Her senior lady steps forward, looking genuinely perplexed. I don't know, my lady. Leave me. All of you, get out!
33:43 Matt Forde? A few minutes later, she storms into Henry's private chamber, thrusts the note into his hands. She watches his expression darken.
33:52 Speaker 06 Who dared?
33:54 Matt Forde? It hardly matters who. What matters is they felt emboldened to do so, because Catherine still takes advantage of your generosity, residing here as your queen.
34:04 Speaker 06 Her presence keeps the commoners from rioting. I don't want to rot-
34:08 Matt Forde? Anne cuts in. They will never love me while she remains. This bizarre menage-a-trois has gone on long enough. Catherine must be sent away. Henry shakes his head.
34:20 Speaker 06 There are other matters to consider. Personal matters.
34:25 Matt Forde? Anne darkens, suspicious. You assured me you harbor no feelings of loyalty or... love? For- Henry takes her hands.
34:35 Speaker 06 I do not. It is not I who would-
34:39 Matt Forde? He trails off, and now Anne realises.
34:47 Matt Forde? Princess Mary. She would be distraught. She dotes on her mother.
34:53 Alice Levine? You are screwed if Amberlins your stepmom, aren't you?
34:55 Matt Forde? Oh yeah, no privileges, no telly.
35:00 Matt Forde? Anne bristles. Mary is loyal to Catherine and Rome.
35:05 Matt Forde? But then she realises this could give her an opening.
35:09 Matt Forde? She tilts Henry's chin up so she can meet his eye.
35:13 Matt Forde? What better way to teach the princess that she must defer to your will? After all, when I bear you a son, she will need to know her place. Henry's eyes light up at the mention of an heir. Anne stays on him. He smiles. How can I deny you my love? Anne beams with genuine joy and relief. Once Catherine is banished from court, she'll be banished from people's minds too. Anne will finally be accepted. She's determined to be loved not only by Henry, but by all who serve him.
35:54 Matt Forde? November 1532, the Moor, Hertfordshire.
35:59 Matt Forde? Catherine enters the dining room, ignores the faded murals that hang on the walls. She wrinkles her nose at the mutton stew and roasted vegetables on the table, glares accusingly at her servant. What is this?
36:13 Alice Levine? I think that's the general Spanish opinion when English food is placed in front of them.
36:17 Matt Forde? I'm sorry, dowager, I am... Catherine thumps her hand on the table. I am still queen, and I will be addressed as such, whatever my husband decrees.
36:30 Alice Levine? Dowager's a slap in the face, isn't it?
36:31 Matt Forde? That's right, we've had dowagers in previous series of British Scandal. And the word itself is a bit sad, like it doesn't really sound like a person of status, particularly not compared to an alternative title of queen, which is the best you can get.
36:45 Alice Levine? Famously.
36:46 Matt Forde? Just for context.
36:48 Alice Levine? Your intricate knowledge on this subject is mind-blowing.
36:52 Matt Forde? The servant nods and scurries away. Catherine tries to calm herself, but it's bad enough being stuck in this wretched backwater without being reminded of the diminished title the king has imposed on her. Only the sound of horsehooves lifts her mood. At least she has her sixteen-year-old daughter's visits to sustain her. She rushes to the main entrance to greet Mary, only instead to come face to face with two of her most loyal supporters: Cardinal Campeggio and Bishop Fisher. Madam, we bring troubling news.
37:29 Matt Forde? Catherine takes in Campeggio's dark expression. Mary has been forced to postpone her visit. His Majesty requires her presence at court for festivities. Catherine knows this is Anne's work, but she bites her tongue. If it is the king's wish... But I'm afraid there is... More. Catherine beckons them inside to the drawing room. Finally, Bishop Fisher breaks the nervous silence. Your Majesty, the king is preparing a new act of succession. If it passes, it will ensure that only children born to him and Lady Anne can be considered legitimate heirs to the throne. Princess Mary will be declared a bastard,
38:13 Matt Forde? stripped of her title and her place in the succession. Catherine grips her chair, her face turning cold as the blood drains from it. No!
38:25 Matt Forde? We've rallied several leaders who refuse to renounce their faith, but few are brave enough to speak publicly. We need someone untouchable. We need you.
38:36 Matt Forde? Catherine's head spins. She knows she's far from untouchable, especially with Anne dripping poison in the king's ear. He could send her further away, take what few luxuries she has left. But she thinks of her innocent daughter having her very birthright ripped away. She can't allow that to happen. Tomorrow, I will ride through the local churches and speak to my people. Catherine resolves to use everything in her ever diminishing arsenal to fight for what really matters, and not give up until her dying day.
39:20 Matt Forde? November 1532. The Collegiate Church of St Peter, Westminster. Anne clenches her fists in frustration as Bishop Fisher makes yet another barely-veiled barb.
39:33 Speaker 07 Thus we are reminded that what God has joined together, let no man put asunder. For it is written that the way of the adulterer leads to destruction.
39:47 Matt Forde? Anne hisses at Henry. He intends this for me. Anne catches a flicker of anger in Henry's eyes. How could he? When no adultery has taken place. Anne bristles. She's refused to sleep with Henry until his annulment is final. But she knows she's testing his patience. This is the first recorded incident in history of blue balls. And, obviously, we know he's a man of blue blood. But when you combine blue blood with blue balls, you can get very angry results.
40:22 Matt Forde? That's why he needed that big codpiece.
40:25 Alice Levine? Don't go any further.
40:27 Matt Forde? Anne doesn't dare retort, instead digging her nails deeper into her palm. When the service ends, she rises quickly, eager to escape.
40:37 Matt Forde? Anne's stomach tightens as they walk through the hostile crowd. To her relief, Henry takes her hand, then signals for his guards to push the protesters back. But a nun breaks through and falls to her knees before them.
40:52 Speaker 03 I bring a warning from God himself.
40:55 Matt Forde? Anne expects Henry to dismiss her curtly. But he signals for his men to wait. What warning, woman?
41:04 Matt Forde? To Anne's horror, the nun eyeballs her, sending a shiver down her spine.
41:09 Speaker 03 Your lust for this concubine comes at a price. If you take her as your wife, you shall die within a month, and a great plague shall befall England, wiping out the sinful and righteous alike.
41:22 Matt Forde? Anne shocked when Henry drops her hand. She's clearly mad, Henry. Come. But Henry doesn't react. And time seems to slow down as she looks into his troubled eyes. Then back at the baying crowd. Perhaps the people would be placated if we set a date for the wedding? It's already turned into a bridezilla. Come on, let me know the day. I've got a hen to plan and I want all my bridal parties to stay at the palace. So your mum's gonna have to stay elsewhere.
41:50 Alice Levine? No, I'm not having Mary as a bridesmaid. Only grown up bridesmaids, thanks.
41:57 Matt Forde? She waits for Henry to meet her eye. Instead, he stares straight ahead.
42:03 Speaker 06 You are treated as my queen in all but name. There is no rush.
42:13 Matt Forde? Later that night, Anne summons the king's page to her room. Tell his majesty I request his presence. Tell him a surprise awaits him.
42:25 Matt Forde? Anne arranges her dark hair around her shoulders. She unlaces the front of her gown enough to reveal a swell of flesh. She feels a prickled doubt as she remembers how Henry cast her sister aside after taking what he wanted. But she pushes those thoughts from her mind. Tonight, she will give herself to the king. It's the one card she's clung to since she first set eyes on Henry. The only card she has left. But by doing this, she's not only giving the king what he most desires. She will also remind him and his subjects that she's capable of providing the one thing his first queen never could. A male heir.
43:07 Matt Forde? Then Catherine will be exorcised forever and Anne will be untouchable.
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44:22 Matt Forde? February 1533. Buckton House, Cambridgeshire. Catherine gently brings her horse to a halt and watches as Mary races happily back towards the small cottage.
44:35 Speaker 03 Mother, look how fast he can go.
44:39 Matt Forde? Catherine catches up with her daughter and they canter back, chatting happily. Reaching the stables, she sees an unfamiliar figure waiting. Her stomach flips when the visitor pushes back a bejeweled French hood to reveal herself. It's Anne, surrounded by royal guards. Catherine makes no attempt to hide her contempt. Lady Anne, this is an unexpected intrusion. Catherine sees a thin smile form on Anne's lips. It's Your Majesty now. Catherine darkens. She studies Anne's superior expression, her icy blue eyes.
45:23 Matt Forde? She takes her time dismounting her horse. Then she speaks slowly, assertively.
45:32 Matt Forde? I believe until an annulment is officially passed, I am still queen.
45:40 Matt Forde? But then she watches Anne's lips curl into a broader smile as she raises her left hand. Catherine's breath catches as she takes in the gleaming gold band on Anne's wedding finger. Can this be real?
45:53 Speaker 07 Oh my god.
45:55 Matt Forde? The king and I were married two weeks ago in a private ceremony. Catherine turns to Mary. It's clear from her expression she's equally shocked. And there is one other thing. Anne places her hand over her abdomen. Catherine's stomach lurches as she moves her eyes down. Even under Anne's cloak, there is a slight but telling swell. My soothsayer has predicted a boy. Catherine is stunned into silence. As she tries to muster a response, Mary jumps in. We will not acknowledge your false marriage, nor any child born of your sin. We shall ensure the people of England know that my mother is Henry's only true... That's enough, child!
46:41 Matt Forde? Catherine admires her daughter's conviction, but she knows firsthand how vindictive Anne can be. Sure enough, Anne turns to Mary, her smile tightening.
46:55 Matt Forde? How interesting that you speak of "we". One might almost think you and your mother are conspiring against the king's wishes.
47:03 Speaker 07 Whoa!
47:05 Matt Forde? She did not mean... This confirms what I have long suspected. That these visits encourage disobedience and disloyalty.
47:15 Speaker 07 Oh, this is cruel now.
47:17 Matt Forde? Cold dread washes over Catherine as Anne gestures to her guards. You will escort Lady Mary back to London. By order of the king. No! You cannot do this! There will be no more visits, no more letters, no correspondence at all.
47:39 Matt Forde? To Catherine's horror, Mary is lifted onto a horse, struggling against the guards. Stop! Mother!
47:48 Matt Forde? Catherine falls to her knees and lets out a desperate cry of pain as Mary is led away, still screaming. When she looks up, Anne's face looms over her.
48:00 Matt Forde? Your time is over.
48:04 Matt Forde? As Anne's coach disappears, Catherine sinks further into the mud. She's lost everything: her position, her husband, and now her beloved child. She must accept that her rival has won. And now, the only thing she can do is pray for mercy, for herself and her daughter's future.
48:38 Matt Forde? Three years later, January 1536, Greenwich Palace Gardens.
48:45 Matt Forde? Henry adjusts his bright yellow doublet. He turns to look at his Queen Anne, resplendent in a gown of saffron silk. He beams at the small swell of her belly. She grins as she catches his eye. Yellow becomes us, I think.
49:03 Matt Forde? Henry places a protective hand on her stomach. The birth of their daughter, Elizabeth, was a blow, and the two miscarriages that followed hard to bear. But this pregnancy shows all signs of being healthy, and the best mystic in the land has assured Henry it's a boy. You should be in Windsor, resting. I have never felt stronger, my love, especially knowing Catherine will be put in the ground today.
49:31 Alice Levine? Jesus, that is a quite very evil thing to say. So Catherine died?
49:35 Matt Forde? Yes, Catherine died on the 7th of January 1536, aged just 50. And there were rumours all around Europe at the time that she'd been poisoned, but it's more than likely she had cancer.
49:46 Alice Levine? And I'm guessing that she died in near isolation as before because she was banished and without Mary?
49:54 Matt Forde? Yes, she'd been moved around various backwaters, basically, still royal residences, lovely stately homes, but not allowed to see her daughter, so it was a very sad end for Catherine. But it's made Anne happy.
50:06 Alice Levine? Silver lining.
50:09 Matt Forde? Henry smiles.
50:12 Matt Forde? He feels a rush of tenderness as Anne ties a yellow ribbon to his lance.
50:18 Matt Forde? This is how it was always meant to be. The two of them united, with a prince in Anne's wound to keep his demons at bay, and Catherine firmly out of the picture.
50:29 Matt Forde? Henry struts into the tilt yard as the crowd roars around him, and mounts his horse. He feels the familiar surge of blood in his veins as he lowers his visor, slots his boots into his stirrups, tightens his reins. But when his eyes drift to Anne's seat, cold panic grips him. She's bent double, her face contorted with pain, her ladies fluttering round her.
51:00 Matt Forde? Henry tries to dismount, but before he can, his horse charges and his opponent strikes, catching him just off centre. He's thrown violently from his steed, and the ground rushes up to meet him. Pain explodes through his body as his armour crashes against the packed earth, and his horse collapses on top of his legs. Henry tries to move, but his body won't obey. He stares up at a sea of panicked faces above him. Courteous guards, physicians, but their voices are distant and muffled. He blinks once, then twice. He desperately tries to open his eyes to speak, but he can't. And instead, the faces start to darken, to turn to shadows,
51:43 Matt Forde? as the courteous guards and physicians looking down at him are replaced by the dead.
51:50 Matt Forde? First, Cardinal Wolsey.
51:53 Speaker 03 You cast aside your truest servants for a sorceress?
51:58 Matt Forde? Henry tries to cry out, as Catherine's face appears.
52:02 Speaker 03 I was your true wife. I kept my vows.
52:06 Matt Forde? And then, worst of all, his brother Arthur, his face twisted in fury.
52:14 Speaker 06 I entrusted her to you, to protect, not destroy.
52:24 Matt Forde? Darkness fills the edges of Henry's vision. He feels death's shadow over him. And the pain in his body is nothing compared to the terror in his soul. Is this God's punishment for his sins? In his desperation, he manages to force out some words.
52:43 Speaker 06 "Lord God, spare me, and I swear I will right these wrongs."
52:50 Matt Forde? The promise echoes in Henry's fading consciousness. His last thought before blackness takes him is that there is only one way to correct this. If he lives, he will have to do the unthinkable. He will have to get rid of Anne.
53:16 Speaker 14 There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.
53:59 Speaker 14 Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.
54:16 Speaker 14 There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.
54:59 Speaker 14 Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.
55:19 Matt Forde? From Wondery and Samistat Audio, this is the second episode in our series, Anne Berlin.
55:25 Alice Levine? A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
55:32 Matt Forde? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Hunting the Falcon: Henry VIII and Anne Berlin by John Guy and Julia Fox, The Life and Death of Anne Berlin by Eric Ives. You can listen to In Our Time: Catherine of Aragon BBC Sounds, or you can watch The Berlins: A Scandalous Family on BBC iPlayer.
55:51 Alice Levine? We love hearing from you with comments and suggestions, so please keep them coming. [email protected] .
55:57 Matt Forde? British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.
55:59 Alice Levine? And me, Alice Levine.
56:01 Matt Forde? Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Dan King. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samistat, our producer is Redsey Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dashar Lissitzina. For Wondery, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis, and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, and Marshall Louie.
56:43 Speaker 15 A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom. Impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene. And the driver of the pickup? He doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.
57:28 Speaker 15 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
57:43 Speaker 16 By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men. So he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress to the enemy
58:28 Speaker 16 and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
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