Pod Insights British Scandal Anne Boleyn | To Catch a King | 1 About this episode Anne Boleyn dazzles Henry VIII, refusing to be just another notch on his bedpost. She'll settle for nothing less than marriage. But King Henry already has a wife.
Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected]
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:13 Matt Forde? Alice, as you know, we're trying to secure the long-term future of British Scandal, so we need to find the financing for that. Sadly, the things we've tried so far have not raised enough money.
0:23 Alice Levine? I thought you were looking down the side of the British Scandal sofa. You said there'd be loads of loose change there.
0:27 Matt Forde? There was a couple of coins, mainly some old cornflakes. Wasn't enough.
0:30 Alice Levine? Oh, God, this is depressing.
0:32 Matt Forde? So I've actually come up with an idea.
0:34 Alice Levine? OK.
0:34 Matt Forde? Just hear me out. We're obviously trying to secure our future and our social standing. So I thought you could seduce Elon Musk.
0:44 Alice Levine? What?
0:45 Matt Forde? Well, he's rich, and he's said some nice things about you online. So I think he's open to you as a potential suitor.
0:52 Alice Levine? Oh, is he? Is he open to me? I'm not open to seducing Elon Musk. Not only is that ludicrous, but that is deeply offensive. It tells me that you have no moral compass and that you assume I also have no ethical code. This is so far from something that I would do that it makes me question this friendship.
1:14 Matt Forde? OK, OK, I'm sorry. It was just born out of desperation. I won't suggest anything like this ever again. I mean, the final name I was going to suggest was Lewis Hamilton. But you're absolutely right, I wouldn't cheapen you in that way.
1:25 Alice Levine? Let's not be hasty. If we need to secure the future of the show, we need to secure the future of the show. And I will do my bit, we all need to muck in.
1:41 Matt Forde? January 1536, Greenwich Palace.
1:46 Matt Forde? Anne Boleyn stands on a frost-covered viewing platform above the Tilt Yard, large flags fluttering in the wind behind her. She pulls her fur cloak tight around her bright yellow silk dress, keen to protect herself from the bitterness of the cold. She smiles as she cups her growing belly. She finally has everything she ever dreamed of.
2:12 Matt Forde? Anne swells with pride as she watches Henry tie her favour, a bright yellow handkerchief, to his lance.
2:22 Matt Forde? But as she settles back to enjoy the joust, a sharp pain sears through her abdomen. Anne gasps, grips the wooden railing. One of her ladies-in-waiting rushes over. Your Majesty!
2:37 Matt Forde? Something's wrong! Her ladies swarm around her, their faces etched with concern. Anne rises to her feet. For a moment, she locks eyes with Henry and desperately tries to hide the fear that's bubbling up inside her. Then she starts back to the palace. Anne turns her head to see hordes of people rushing to the tilt yard. The king is down! Anne starts to run, through the crowds, elbowing people out of the way. Until finally she reaches an opening. She feels the blood drain from her face. Because there in front of her is the king's horse, flailing on the ground, and Henry's seemingly lifeless body visible beneath it.
3:23 Matt Forde? Henry! Anne tries to race down to him, but her legs buckle. She looks down to see her dress slowly darken.
3:33 Matt Forde? It takes a beat for Anne to realise that the growing stain is blood. Your Majesty, we must get you to a physician! Anne knows what this is, because it's happened before. Her face contorts with agony. She takes in the dark glances of her ladies-in-waiting as the reality of her situation hits with devastating clarity. This was her last chance. She could be about to lose everything she spent the last ten years working so hard to achieve. Her husband, the king, the promised heir to the throne, and with that, perhaps even her place as Queen of England.
4:24 Speaker 02 It's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.
4:53 Speaker 03 Prize picks packs are here. Rip digital packs and get real basketball, football and Pokemon cards on Prize Picks packs. Available now nationwide. Once you see your pool, you have a choice to sell back instantly for real cash or ship at home. Cash from your sale will immediately be added to your Prize Picks balance. It's just another way to run your game. New users, download the Prize Picks app today and use code WONDERY to get $25 instantly in bonus packs when you buy your first $5 pack. Prize Picks, run your game. 18 plus to eligible areas. Terms apply. Collect responsibly.
5:26 Alice Levine? From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine.
5:28 Matt Forde? And I'm Matt Ford.
5:29 Alice Levine? And this is British Scandal, the show where we bring you the murkier stories that ever happened on these odd little isles.
5:35 Matt Forde? British scandals come in many shapes and sizes. Some are about money, some are about sex, they're all about power.
5:42 Alice Levine? But when we look at scandals a bit closer, they turn out to be stranger, wilder, just plain weirder than we remember.
5:49 Matt Forde? So we're journeying back to ask who's to blame for what happened.
5:52 Alice Levine? And when the dust settled, did anything really change?
6:04 Matt Forde? I've got a big name story for you this time, Alice. So I'm not going to ask you if you've heard of the woman at the centre of this series, Anne Boleyn. Instead, I'd like to know what you think of her.
6:14 Alice Levine? Okay, just to be clear, she was the second of Henry VIII's wives, right?
6:17 Matt Forde? That's right.
6:18 Alice Levine? The one who seduced the king and split the church?
6:22 Matt Forde? Well, yeah, kind of.
6:23 Alice Levine? In that case, whore, seductress, temptress springs to mind, schemer?
6:30 Alice Levine? As I remember it, we've got poor Henry happily ticking along in his marriage to his lovely wife and to the Catholic Church, until she beguiled him into all sorts of crazy antics.
6:42 Matt Forde? Okay, I'm quite surprised that that's your view of her, because you could see her as the victim who fell into the orbit of a homicidal egomaniac. Many say she was happily ticking along at court until Henry started paying her attention, and she did what she needed to do to survive in a dangerously patriarchal society.
7:00 Alice Levine? No, not having it. This is the problem with women, Matt, and I've always said it. They flutter their eyelashes, they pout, and they persuade innocent, simple men to do things they'd never normally do, and then they cry victim. And scene. In all seriousness, I have been wanting to do this one for ages because it feels so relevant and has been cast as, I suppose, the original evil woman in the public eye. And we're so used to seeing it, just looking at people we've covered in British scandal, Yoko Ono, Kristin Keillor, and maybe the most present contemporary example would be Meghan Markle. Women who are blamed and held to account for their partner's behaviour and their choices.
7:44 Matt Forde? Yes, but in Anne's case, the stakes were much, much higher. She is someone who altered the very religious, social and political fabric of our nation, and her legacy still fascinates us today. This is episode one, To Catch a King.
8:05 Matt Forde? Ten years earlier, March 1526, Hever Castle, Kent.
8:13 Matt Forde? Anne Berlin twirls in front of a large gilded mirror, studying her white silk gold-trimmed gown.
8:19 Alice Levine? In 1526, I imagine that was one of the top pastimes.
8:23 Matt Forde? Just mirror twirling.
8:25 Alice Levine? Pretty much.
8:28 Matt Forde? She holds a decorated half mask up to her face, then turns to look at her sister Mary, who sits on a cushioned stool nearby. What do you think? Mary grins. Better than those awful hooded gowns you've favoured since your return? Anne narrows her eyes. Must you always be so... conventional, Mary? Anne's pale skin and dark mane were made for the elegant gowns she wore during her seven years as a lady-in-waiting to Queen Claudia of France. But tonight, aged twenty-four, she's making her English court debut in a pageant, and Anne's thoughts are firmly fixed on the task at hand.
9:09 Matt Forde? Father has the Earl of Northumberland's son in mind for you. He's very dashing. Anne goes into an exaggerated courtly bow. She and Mary dissolve into giggles.
9:22 Matt Forde? Cut short when the door bursts open and their father, Thomas, strides in. Father? Do you like my gown? Anne rushes over to him, twirls dramatically to show off her dress. But he pushes her aside, instead strides over to Mary.
9:40 Matt Forde? Is it true? Anne looks at her sister in confusion. Has the king cast you aside? Anne stunned as Mary bows her head, her cheeks turning red. Yes, father. Anne raises a hand to her mouth. Damn it, girl! I've worked for years to put this family at the heart of court, to build our status from nothing. Am I now to watch that crumble into dust?
10:05 Alice Levine? Okay, so what's Thomas Berlin's story?
10:07 Matt Forde? Well, Thomas has worked his way up, as he suggests. He wasn't born a nobleman, he married up in order to gain status. And that was the way in Tudor England, if you wanted status, you did it through marriage. So Thomas had done that himself. And what better way for him to gain even more status than to use his daughter effectively as a bargaining chip?
10:27 Alice Levine? And I suppose as a woman, you obviously are in training to find yourself the most prestigious union, so you're anticipating this anyway?
10:35 Matt Forde? Despite herself, Anne cuts in. You can't blame Mary. Everyone knows how fickle the king can be. Thomas turns his disapproving glare on Anne. She casts her gaze downward. Takes in her low-cut neckline that she's insisted on in the hope of drawing men's eyes, as a thought occurs. If the king requires a new mistress, perhaps I could tempt him.
11:02 Alice Levine? Strange dynamic, isn't it, father-daughter, in fifteen-whatever is?
11:06 Matt Forde? Father, perhaps I could tap that?
11:09 Alice Levine? Father, perhaps a tonk?
11:14 Alice Levine? You'd have to listen to a previous series to know that that's Matt's temper of lovemaking.
11:18 Matt Forde? Yeah, it's a phrase I've heard the older boys use.
11:24 Matt Forde? Thomas waves a dismissive hand.
11:27 Matt Forde? With your flat chest and sickly complexion? Anne bristles, glances at Mary's long, fair hair framing her rosy cheeks and ample bosom, but her father stays on her, thoughtful. Although, there are few virgins of suitable age left in court. I take it you did not open your legs to any of King Francis's wine-soaked libertines? Anne blushes furiously. No, I can assure you, I never... Then perhaps you're as good a lady as any to warm the king's bed. Anne feels her resolve harden. She's just as capable of securing her family's future as Mary. She straightens up, determined.
12:12 Matt Forde? I won't let you down, father.
12:15 Matt Forde? Anne feels an excited flutter of butterflies in her stomach as her father nods and strides out. The Berlins have always aimed high, and she will be no exception. Tonight, she will make it her mission to catch King Henry VIII.
12:39 Matt Forde? That evening, March 1526, the Great Hall, York Place, London. Anne balances atop a wooden mock turret as masked noblemen storm the make-believe fortress. Hold fast, virtues! Danger and jealousy shall not prevail!
12:59 Alice Levine? I mean, obviously, I know what's going on here, but for the benefit of the listener.
13:02 Matt Forde? Yes, this is a morality play.
13:04 Alice Levine? Okay.
13:05 Matt Forde? It was the popular entertainment of the Tudor times, where people would put on productions with the personification of effectively values. So you'd have angels and demons fighting to get the protagonist to go one way or the other.
13:18 Alice Levine? It's sort of, if it was a running time of, say, 27 minutes, you know, it's Tudor EastEnders.
13:24 Matt Forde? It is, although Tudor real life, based on what we've seen already, way more outlandish than EastEnders.
13:31 Alice Levine? Although I will say, Phil Mitchell, not not King Henry VIII. I imagine Phil's had six wives by now.
13:38 Matt Forde? Oh, minimum, and he wears codpiece.
13:42 Matt Forde? Anne, as Perseverance, waves her silk handkerchief in faux distress as she searches her mind for her next line, then almost freezes when she realises the man leading the assault is King Henry, costumed as Ardent Desire.
13:59 Alice Levine? Oh, boy.
14:00 Matt Forde? She's never seen him up close before, and there's no denying how strong and handsome he looks, draped in gold cloth, his reddish beard catching the light. Surrender, fair virtues! Ardent Desire shall overcome all obstacles!
14:18 Matt Forde? Anne forgets her nerves and steps forward, desperate to catch his eye. But his gaze has already moved to the buxom lady beside her, playing beauty.
14:29 Matt Forde? Anne kicks herself for not making a better first impression. But hearing the musicians tune their instruments, she quickly regroups. She rushes over to her father, drags him to the centre of the great hall, adjusts her sleeves and bows as the first lutes pierce the air. Anne's feet follow her father's with precise, delicate steps. The eyes of the room are upon you, daughter, including His Majesty's. Anne looks up to see Henry staring straight at her. She holds his gaze for a heartbeat before lowering her eyes with practiced modesty.
15:06 Alice Levine? What, me?
15:08 Matt Forde? Well, this is what she learned in France. So all the other women there are dancing in a pretty basic English way. We know we're amongst the worst dancers in the world and we're cool with it.
15:18 Alice Levine? So true.
15:19 Matt Forde? But she's learnt that coquettish French style.
15:22 Alice Levine? So they're all doing some like lame, probably two-step with their handkerchiefs in the air or something, and she's twerking, the twerking of the day.
15:30 Matt Forde? Yes, they're Maurice dancing, she's slut dropping.
15:37 Matt Forde? Moments later, Henry beckons Anne to join him. But as she starts to walk over, she catches a whispered conversation between two of her fellow maidens. "Have you seen the disdainful way the king looks at her sister Mary now? She's gone from whore to bore." Their tittering laughter echoes through Anne's head as she crosses the room.
15:59 Matt Forde? Is that what she's setting herself up to be in a few months' time? Soiled goods? Her mind races. As she nears the king and takes a deep breath, an idea starts to form. She smiles broadly and then sashays straight past Henry. Anne hears nearby courtiers gasp. A hushed silence falls across the room, broken only by the unmistakable voice of England's king. "Mistress Berlin!" "Your Majesty?" Henry towers above her as she meets his eyes.
16:40 Matt Forde? "Forgive me, Your Majesty, but after my sister's experience, I've grown overly wary of engaging with certain men at court." Henry's expression darkens. "Lady Anne, I am no mere man. I am the king." She hopes she hasn't overstepped, but can only double down now. "Yes, Your Majesty. Thank you for reminding me."
17:06 Alice Levine? Ah, facetious little wench.
17:11 Matt Forde? She ignores her father's shocked pleas and instead turns and rushes away, her father's panicked voice ringing in her ears. My lord, I must apologize. Anne's heart pangs so hard she fears it might burst from her chest. What she's just done could mean her whole family faces ruin. She can only hope her gamble pays off.
17:34 Alice Levine? I mean, this could end so badly. Having said that, I think she's really smart because he's got women throwing themselves at him all the time. And she's done the one thing that is taboo, and that is to deny him.
17:48 Matt Forde? And some men love that.
17:50 Alice Levine? They bloody love it.
17:54 Matt Forde? The following morning, Westminster Palace Gardens, London.
18:00 Matt Forde? Henry stomps towards the archery butts as his Lord Chancellor, Cardinal Wolsey, scurries alongside him.
18:07 Alice Levine? I'm trying to remember my Tudor and Stuart history. Cardinal Wolsey, big deal, right?
18:11 Matt Forde? Oh, massive deal. One of the last churchmen to play a dominant role in English political life. He was King Henry's right-hand man, his most trusted advisor. And he actually carried out a lot of the duties effectively of what was then the government. He led on foreign policy. He was basically Foreign Secretary. And latterly described as the alter-rex, the other king.
18:32 Alice Levine? Wow, okay.
18:33 Matt Forde? He's a big dog.
18:36 Matt Forde? Now that King Francis is free of Spain's grip, it presents an opportunity, Your Majesty. Henry comes to a halt and signals for a page to bring his bow. He wants to listen, but all he can think of is the impotent Berlin girl he met last night. I propose that we position you as a neutral mediator. Did you see her last night? The way she spoke to me? He casts his mind back to her long neck, her dark eyes, that defiant smile. He focuses on Wolsey, who seems lost. Lady Anne. Now Wolsey returns with a look of grave recognition. Berlin's youngest. Yes. The court was shocked by her behaviour.
19:21 Matt Forde? Thomas will struggle to find her a suitable husband if she cannot be brought to heel. Henry nods, reminded of how foolish Anne made him look. Indeed.
19:35 Matt Forde? Henry takes an arrow from his page and draws it back against his bow, focusing on the bullseye in his sight. Well, Your Majesty, why do we use Queen Catherine's link to keep Spain sweet? We might also strengthen our bond with Rome. But as Henry tightens his three fingers around the bowstring, he finds Anne's soft voice entering his mind in its place. After my sister's experience, I've grown overly wary of engaging with certain men at court. He releases the arrow. Instead of hitting its target, it whizzes past and embeds itself in the grassy turf several yards away. He throws down his bow in frustration.
20:18 Matt Forde? This treacherous breeze thwarts me.
20:22 Alice Levine? Arrest the breeze!
20:24 Matt Forde? Walsey and the page nod dutifully. But Henry knows full well the wind is not what's put him off his game today.
20:33 Matt Forde? Okay, release the breeze!
20:36 Alice Levine? Sir, we already killed the breeze!
20:42 Matt Forde? Later, in his private chambers, Henry stares out into the torchlit gardens, his mind too restless to sleep. He turns to his chief groomsman. I wish for company tonight.
20:56 Alice Levine? Oh, thanks, sir. Well, we could play some games. Ah, I see what you mean. Leave it with me.
21:02 Matt Forde? The groomsman nods. One of your usual ladies? No. Find me someone dark-haired, slender, intelligent eyes. He sees his groomsman pause at the final request before he scuttles off.
21:21 Matt Forde? Henry realizes he can't allow this situation to continue. He must banish these troubling thoughts in order to regain his focus, his power. He's going to have to take more drastic action. And he's already decided what it will be.
21:42 Matt Forde? The next day, Hever Castle.
21:46 Matt Forde? Anne sits at the long oak dining table. She picks at her bread, unable to meet her father's furious gaze. Do you have any idea what you've risked? Anne knows she should stay silent, but she's desperate to explain herself. The ladies of the French court believe a man values what he must work to win. I thought if I behaved as they do, perhaps... Thomas slams down his water goblet, making Anne flinch. When the king shows interest, you respond with gratitude, humility, not French arrogance. Anne looks down at her lap.
22:29 Matt Forde? The silence is broken by a sharp knock. A boy in royal livery enters. Master Thomas Berlin, His Majesty requires your presence at Westminster immediately. Anne watches Thomas's face turn ashen. She feels bile rise up in her throat. When her father speaks again, it's in a nervous whisper.
22:53 Matt Forde? Pray the king is in a merciful mood. Anne starts to reply, but before she can utter a word, her father storms across the room and slams the door.
23:06 Matt Forde? Four hours later, Anne's pacing her room as darkness falls. When Thomas finally strides through the door, she rushes over to him, overwhelmed with relief. Oh, father, I am so sorry. Thomas holds her back, keeping her at arm's length. She feels tears prick her eyes. But then, to her amazement, he breaks into a triumphant smile.
23:33 Matt Forde? The king has appointed me controller of the royal household. And you have been invited to serve alongside Mary as lady-in-waiting to Queen Catherine. Anne stands frozen, stunned. But Thomas isn't finished. He produces a small box. This is for you. From His Majesty. Anne's hands tremble as she opens it. Inside lays an exquisite gold pendant, a large red ruby in its centre.
24:04 Matt Forde? My clever girl. It seems you have made quite an impression. But now you must yield. The games must end.
24:13 Alice Levine? Dad, shut up.
24:15 Matt Forde? You've got to go over there and do it with him now.
24:18 Alice Levine? Horrible.
24:20 Matt Forde? Anne's mind begins to race with possibilities. How much more could she achieve? Her ambition growing, she hands back the box. No. Have this returned to the king. Her father's smile vanishes. Anne clasps his hands, locks eyes with him. The king doesn't just want a bedmate, father. Everyone knows he's desperate for a male heir, and Catherine has failed him. Perhaps a new wife could solve his problems. Anne holds Thomas's gaze as his eyes widen.
24:58 Matt Forde? Trust me, father. The harder the chase, the more valuable the prize. Anne knows exactly how to play this game, and she intends to win. She will not settle for being a mere mistress. Nothing less than Henry VIII's new queen will do.
25:25 Speaker 04 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organised crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,
26:10 Speaker 04 and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
26:24 Speaker 05 Hi, I'm Kenya Paris.
26:26 Speaker 06 And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.
26:32 Speaker 05 We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.
26:39 Speaker 06 And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy-winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Rich Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar-winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?
26:55 Speaker 05 I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for a free trial Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.
27:29 Matt Forde? New Year's Day, 1527, Greenwich Palace.
27:33 Alice Levine? Can you imagine the novelty glasses for that one? Quite tricky, isn't it? Year 2000 was sort of good, but all the other ones, 1527, very difficult to see out of.
27:44 Matt Forde? Catherine of Aragon watches hawk-like over the tilt yard as Henry's squires fasten ornate armour to him piece by piece. But it's not the king her dark eyes fixate on. It's one of her new ladies in waiting, Anne Boleyn.
28:00 Matt Forde? Catherine forces herself to stay composed. She reaches into her sleeve and takes out the favour she's hand-stitched for Henry, a purse with their intertwined initials at its centre. It warms her heart, reminding her of the days they were truly united. But as she looks up, to her horror, Henry moves not towards her, but to Anne. His voice carries across the yard. Mistress Boleyn, might I request your favour for today's contest?
28:34 Matt Forde? Catherine stiffens as Anne hands Henry a delicate lace handkerchief, which he presses briefly to his lips before tying it to his lance. Her grip tightens around her own favour, aware all eyes are flicking between her and Anne.
28:53 Matt Forde? She fixes a rictus grin on her face, but the humiliation burns like acid. She's turned a blind eye to Henry's mistresses over their eighteen years together, but she refuses to be mocked in public, in plain sight of the entire court. She storms off the royal stand the moment the joust is done, rushes to the king's privy chamber, hammers on the door. Henry, I wish to speak to you. Catherine opens the door a crack, peers into the room. Satisfied it's empty, she steps inside. Her heartbeat quickens as she's hit by Henry's musky scent.
29:35 Matt Forde? She picks up one of his heavy silk robes, enjoying the feel of it against her skin. She knows it's been a rough few years, but despite herself, she still loves Henry. She's about to take a seat and wait for him to return, when her eyes are drawn to a small prayer book on the bureau, open at an illustration of Saint Mary. Catherine takes a closer look, and gasps as she realises it's been defaced, with Anne written beside it, along with explicit lines of French verse, in Henry's distinctive handwriting.
30:13 Alice Levine? So is this like a sort of naughty limerick type of poem?
30:18 Matt Forde? I guess so, yeah.
30:19 Alice Levine? There was a young girl called Berlin.
30:22 Matt Forde? Who in court caused quite a din.
30:25 Alice Levine? A king she did want to kiss and to tong.
30:30 Matt Forde? And she looked great with his balls on her...
30:32 Alice Levine? Et cetera, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's that sort of vibe.
30:36 Matt Forde? All the standard romantic lines of the time, very fifteen hundreds.
30:41 Alice Levine? I mean, is that the vibe?
30:43 Matt Forde? I don't think it is. So they corresponded through things like prayer books, and they would write little notes next to religious imagery. And it was quite chaste compared to the stuff we just said. But obviously, in the fifteen hundreds, and the fact that this was Henry VIII writing it himself, means that actually this is very risque. So he would call her mine own darling and his good sweetheart, or the one woman in the world who I most esteem.
31:07 Alice Levine? What a perv.
31:10 Matt Forde? Next to the prayer book is a half-written letter. Catherine steals herself as she reads. Of late, I have put my heart into your hands, beseeching you to have friendly care for it, and that it may be increased in the fervent desire which it bears you.
31:28 Matt Forde? Catherine feels the bitter taste of bile hit her throat as the truth sinks in. It's not mere lust Henry feels for this girl. It's love. She jumps as she hears the door creak open.
31:42 Matt Forde? Catherine?
31:44 Matt Forde? I have endured much over the years, husband. I have always put up with your... diversions. But never have you been so public in your disrespect. You imagine such things?
31:59 Matt Forde? Infuriated, Catherine picks up the letter and raises it to Henry's face, forcing him to acknowledge his betrayal. I deserve better than to be humiliated. Henry moves towards her, darkening.
32:16 Matt Forde? And England deserves an heir. Catherine feels the daggers pierce her heart.
32:24 Matt Forde? God may yet bless our union with a son. Henry turns back to her, his anger now matching hers. After four boys too sickly to survive, God has made his will clear enough. Catherine bows her head, overwhelmed with grief and shame. The pain of all the babies she's lost is as visceral now as ever. You've had your say, madam. That is all.
32:54 Matt Forde? Catherine knows she will get no more from him, that he has no intention of ending things with this latest concubine. To see the spell broken, she will have to deal directly with the sorceress who cast it.
33:10 Alice Levine? You just cannot imagine the trauma for women at this time of losing multiple babies, having not only no support, but your partner, in this case, the king, truly believing that it's God's will and it's an example of his lack of approval of your union.
33:31 Matt Forde? Catherine lost six babies in total, four boys and two girls. Most were stillborn, the eldest survived just 52 days, and she is shouldering all of the blame for this, all of the pressure is on her, something completely out of her control. But of course, no one is blaming the man, especially not when the man is the king. That evening, Greenwich Palace.
33:57 Matt Forde? Anne rounds the doorway of her room and stops sharply at the sight of Queen Catherine, standing by her bed in all her royal splendor.
34:06 Matt Forde? Anne instinctively drops to a curtsey. "Your Majesty, I'm honoured..." But before she can finish... "So, this is how you serve your Queen?"
34:17 Alice Levine? Uh-oh.
34:19 Matt Forde? She watches as Catherine takes a crumpled letter from her sleeve and tosses it at her feet.
34:24 Alice Levine? "There was a young girl called Berlin."
34:27 Matt Forde? Anne feels a rush of panic. "Your Majesty, I..." "Pick it up." Anne stares at her in disbelief, then starts to slowly bend to retrieve the piece of parchment. "I never reached the end. Perhaps you could read it for me?" Anne starts to feel sick. "Surely, Your Majesty, would rather not..." She watches as Catherine fixes her with a stare. "Read." "I have put my heart..." But Catherine waves a dismissive hand. Anne stops talking. "You think yourself clever, making him gush to you like a schoolboy." Catherine halts, leans in closer.
35:10 Matt Forde? "But you are no more than a flat-chested novelty that will fade. End this, or I promise, you and your family will regret it." Anne stays rooted to the spot as Catherine sweeps from the room. She knows Catherine is dangerous, but as she rereads Henry's lovesick words, she feels a calm descend. Catherine must view her as a real threat, to have been rattled enough to warn her off.
35:39 Matt Forde? But she must not back down now, quite the opposite.
35:55 Matt Forde? The following morning, Anne enters the great hall with her fellow ladies in waiting for the giving of New Year gifts. She eyes Catherine on her throne next to the king. Anne tightens her hand around the small object enclosed in her skirt pocket. Fidgets impatiently as courtiers present their gifts.
36:16 Matt Forde? "From the Earl of Shrewsbury, Your Majesty." A steward offers Henry an impressive sword. He rolls his eyes, waves it away. "He gives me the same every year. What's next?" A page nods for Anne to step forward. "Lady Anne Berlin wishes to present the king with a gift." Anne notes a flicker of shock cross Catherine's face, but she wills her eyes to focus on Henry as she presents him with a small model ship. Her heart thuds as he studies it carefully. "If it pleases Your Majesty, it represents a maiden's journey. She sails toward a harbour, uncertain if she will reach safe shores or be dashed against the rocks."
36:59 Matt Forde? From the corner of her eye, Anne sees Catherine's barely-contained fury. "She requires certainty, Your Majesty. A promise that the harbour awaits her, and that no contrary winds will change her course, no matter what storm may come." Anne's stomach feels like it's in knots as she steps back, hoping she hasn't overplayed her hand.
37:25 Matt Forde? An hour later, Anne is summoned to the king's privy chamber. She enters to find Henry alone. Lady Anne, the queen is far from happy.
37:37 Matt Forde? Anne feels a rush of panic. But then, to her relief, Henry's lips turn up into a wide smile.
37:45 Matt Forde? But such an audacious move only excites me more. I must ask something important of you.
37:53 Matt Forde? Anne's heart skips a beat as he takes her hands. I wish you to be my only mistress, singular in my affections. Your mistress? You would have rooms at court, an allowance, servants, more than any woman has ever had outside of, outside of being queen. Henry stares at her, stunned. Anne, you know that's impossible. Come on, love.
38:26 Matt Forde? Anne realises in horror that marriage hasn't even occurred to Henry. But now there's no going back. She places a hand on his chest, her boldness surprising even herself. Nothing is impossible for a king. I am not some kind of consolation prize, and I will not compromise my honour or my future. I cannot.
38:51 Matt Forde? Henry blinks slowly, as if dazed. Anne steps back, curtsies, then walks from the room. She's light-headed as she enters the corridor. She's put all her cards on the table. Now she can only pray Henry loves her enough to make her his new queen, before Catherine convinces him otherwise.
39:30 Matt Forde? Thirty minutes later, January 1527, Greenwich Palace. Catherine paces her chamber, clutching her rosary beads. Her heart hammers against her bodice as her lady-in-waiting, a most loyal companion, Maria de Salinas, enters. Do you bring news?
39:52 Matt Forde? To Catherine’s despair, Maria looks up at her, her face etched with regret. Your Majesty, I have heard the king has sent for Cardinal Wolsey. Maria hesitates. Catherine stares at her, imploring her to go on.
40:09 Matt Forde? It seems the king has tasked him with asking the Pope to...
40:14 Matt Forde? ...inquire about a divorce.
40:18 Matt Forde? Catherine feels her legs weaken. She grabs hold of Maria, who grips her tightly in support. Catherine shakes her head. No, it cannot be!
40:30 Alice Levine? It cannot be? I mean, there’s no such thing as a divorce at this point, is there, in England?
40:35 Matt Forde? Kings in England won’t get in divorce, but kings elsewhere, on occasion, were, although there were high ecclesiastical standards for doing so. But Louis VII got a divorce. Catherine and Henry are deeply religious people, as people were back then, and they truly believed that divorce was a mortal sin. So they weren’t just worried about judgment and the court of public opinion, they truly believed they would burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.
41:02 Matt Forde? Catherine straightens up. She charges down the long corridors of the palace so fast she’s breathless by the time she reaches Henry’s privy chamber. She strides towards his bedroom door, only for his groom-of-the-stool to block her way. Forgive me, Your Grace, but the king has commanded that you remain undisturbed at this time. I am his queen, and my business is most urgent.
41:28 Matt Forde? The groomsman stands firm. Your Majesty, I am bound by my sacred oath to the King.
41:36 Matt Forde? Catherine's heart sinks as she realises Henry could stonewall her this way for weeks. She rushes back to her chamber and sits down at her bureau.
41:46 Matt Forde? If Henry is going to try and divorce her, she'll use the power she knows she still has. Because she is no mere wife. She is a queen. A Spanish queen, no less. Taking a quill, she starts writing a letter to her nephew, King Charles of Spain. My dearest nephew and lord, it is with sadness that I bring you this news.
42:12 Matt Forde? Catherine feels stronger with every word she etches on the parchment. She knows Spain's support is still vital to Rome. So if she can't stop Henry or Anne, she'll see to it that the Pope does. The King can try all he likes to rid himself of her. But Catherine will use everything in her arsenal to remain England's queen.
42:40 Matt Forde? Two weeks later, January 1527, Hever Castle, Kent. Anne anxiously rips open the letter that's just arrived, as her father studies her fearfully. Anne tries to ignore him, reading as fast as her eyes will allow. Well? Anne breaks into a wide grin as she reads aloud. My own sweetheart, the pain of our separation is more than I can endure. My heart remains dedicated to you alone. Return to court and be with me always. What we have discussed will come to pass. Your devoted servant, H.R.
43:19 Alice Levine? Your devoted servant from the King?
43:22 Matt Forde? Anne presses the letter to her chest, dizzy with triumph. It's worked, father. This is it. Two hours later, she already feels every inch the queen when she's ushered straight into Henry's privy chamber at Greenwich Palace.
43:40 Matt Forde? My Anne, finally.
43:44 Matt Forde? Anne giggles as he kisses her hands. He guides her to a seat at the room's large window, which overlooks the magnificent grounds, then reaches into his pocket and takes out a small velvet pouch. Anne feels her heartbeat quicken in anticipation. She can't wait to see what ring he's chosen. But her smile fades when he produces a gold bracelet set with sapphires instead. Is it not to your liking? In your letter, when you spoke of what we discussed coming to pass... And it will. I've set things in motion. Walsey is consulting experts. But these matters are complex, dear. And with Catherine doing her best to sour relations with Rome... At the mention of her rival, Anne snaps.
44:29 Matt Forde? To hell with that dried-up husk! I gave up everything for you. My reputation, my prospects for a proper marriage. How long must I keep waiting? Henry's face reddens. You speak as if I've been idle! Anne knows she should back down, but she can't. Yet Catherine still sits on the throne beside you! Anne's words are sharper than she intended. And when Henry next speaks, she's unsettled by his quiet tone. The Queen's cousin is the most powerful ruler in Europe. And I'm risking his wrath for you.
45:05 Matt Forde? How dare you accuse me of empty promises? Anne realizes she's crossed a line. Your Majesty, forgive me. But it's too late. Anne no longer sees love in Henry's eyes. Only fury. Get out of my sight! She looks at him in confusion. Out! Out! She stumbles back and curtseys deeply. Then she flees from the chamber, her legs threatening to give way as she runs, tears flowing from her eyes. She has ruined everything. And she has no idea what it will mean for her. I have found it.
45:47 Speaker 07 You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop, you have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible, stories that speak to you. By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga.
46:30 Speaker 07 But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental
46:54 Matt Forde? Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress to the enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
47:33 Matt Forde? The following day, January 15, 27, York Place, London. Cardinal Wolsey licks the grease from his fingers, pulls a swan feather from his teeth, before cradling his full-to-bursting belly.
47:49 Matt Forde? Walsey looks down at the long dining table, where English scholars and clerics knock back wine from silver goblets. Two servants stagger in, groaning under the weight of the platter holding the next course.
48:03 Matt Forde? Walsey looks proudly at the two roasted peacocks, redressed in their feathers. Dig in, gentlemen, dig in, before they fly away! He's about to reach for his claret when the double doors of the dining room burst open, and King Henry strides in. Your Majesty, what an unexpected honour! We need to speak, Cardinal, now!
48:28 Matt Forde? Walsey takes in Henry's feverish eyes. He's served to the king since he came to the throne eighteen years ago, has been his chief minister and Lord Chancellor for the past twelve, and this look means trouble. He's barely got Henry into his study, when the king blurts out what's on his mind. Where are you with my divorce?
48:51 Matt Forde? Walsey's eyes are drawn to the map of Europe on the desk beside them, its markers showing the shifting alliances he navigates daily on Henry's behalf. Knowing all too well what such a move could do to diplomatic relations, he's been stalling for weeks, hopeful that Henry's lust for Lady Berlin will wane. Sadly, Your Majesty, I am still waiting for a response from Rome, and Catherine is... This is intolerable! Anne and I have been estranged for days due to this matter, and my yearning for her has made me understand her frustration.
49:23 Alice Levine? Days!
49:25 Matt Forde? Henry takes a step closer, and looms over Walsey. I must have her, do you understand?
49:38 Matt Forde? Looking into Henry's desperate eyes, Walsey realises he can no longer deny the seriousness of this.
49:44 Alice Levine? He's well horny.
49:46 Matt Forde? Calm down, Your Majesty, you'll be up and over like a pan of milk.
49:53 Matt Forde? Walsley pulls himself straight. Don't.
49:57 Matt Forde? It's time to deliver the truth to the king.
50:01 Matt Forde? Sire, papal law simply won't allow you to divorce Catherine.
50:08 Matt Forde? Walsley holds his nerve as he watches Henry kick the table, then slump into a nearby chair.
50:15 Matt Forde? I am the King of England. How is it that Rome forbids me from being with the woman I love when it bent its nonsensical rules to allow me to wed Catherine in the first place?
50:25 Alice Levine? Eh? What's he on about?
50:27 Matt Forde? Walsley stays on him, confused. I'm sorry, sire, I don't... Catherine is my late brother's widow man. Is that in itself not a sin? But, Your Majesty, Catherine came to you pure in body and mind. She never consummated her marriage with your brother.
50:47 Alice Levine? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is going on here?
50:50 Matt Forde? This is Jeremy Kyle levels of drama in the 1500s. So Catherine had originally been married to Henry's older brother, Arthur. They got married in 1501. Arthur dies in 1502, leaving Catherine a widow at the age of just 16. And what they argued was that Catherine had never consummated her marriage with Arthur. So on two grounds, one, that Arthur was dead, and two, that they'd never had sex. Therefore, effectively, it wasn't a proper marriage. The Pope approved Henry to marry Catherine because, effectively, that initial marriage didn't count. And that's crucial in terms of the framing of it as a sin, because back then, if you were to marry your brother's wife, that was seen as incest. And that is a real no-no.
51:37 Matt Forde? Henry grabs Walsley's arm, as if suddenly struck. What if she was not pure? What if she lied? What if she did lay with my brother before he passed? Walsley is lost, but Henry's enthusiasm is growing. If that was so, it would explain why God denies me an heir. And it would surely make an annulment possible, would it not?
52:04 Alice Levine? This is dastardly.
52:06 Matt Forde? Slash genius. Walsey stares at him aghast. Sire, invalidating your entire marriage would have profound political implications. You would be calling the Queen a liar. Princess Mary's legitimacy would be void. But Henry immediately snaps back. You have done very well in my service, Cardinal. Your houses, your riches. It would be unfortunate if that were all lost.
52:36 Matt Forde? Walsey feels a wave of nausea. He has seen firsthand what happens to those who disappoint the King. If an annulment is what you seek, Your Majesty, I shall apply all my men and resources. Walsey knows enraging Rome could shatter relations with Italy. Not to mention Spain, possibly France too. So while he will do Henry's bidding, he vows to keep looking for ways to get Anne Berlin out of the picture. For good.
53:14 Matt Forde? Three days later. January 1527. The Great Hall, Greenwich Palace. Anne tries to mask her regret as Catherine presents Henry with a jeweling crusted gold chalice. A small token of my devotion, Your Majesty. It is most impressive. Thank you, wife.
53:36 Matt Forde? Catherine's eyes fall directly on Anne, taunting her in triumph. Anne directs her gaze to her hands. She keeps it there as she starts to leave with her fellow ladies. Lydia, wait. Anne's heart thuds as she realizes she and Henry are now alone. He beckons her over. She falls at his feet. Your Majesty, I beg for your forgiveness. I was wrong to push. If you will allow me to remain in your wife's service, I shall behave in a way more befitting. Anne can only look up at the King with desperate eyes. He studies her a moment. Then, to her surprise, he reaches into his doublet
54:19 Matt Forde? and takes out a large gold ring with an emerald at its centre, surrounded by pearls. My heart is ached, viewer. I cannot lose you. This ring is a solemn promise of my intention to make you my queen.
54:35 Matt Forde? Anne hears an involuntary gasp escape her lips. Henry searches her eyes with his. Will you wait for me a little longer? Anne feels tears of joy well in her eyes. Yes, my love. Yes, I can wait. Henry gently places the ring in her palm, wraps her fingers around it. I have made a plan with Walsey that will rid me of Catherine. But we must keep it secret until everything is ready. Anne nods. Until matters are resolved, I will wear this by my heart, not on my hand. Anna attaches the ring to the chain around her neck. Then she allows Henry to kiss her gently on the lips. She practically floats from the room,
55:19 Matt Forde? colliding with Cardinal Walsey in the corridor. She curtsies, then leans towards him and whispers conspiratorially. Your Eminence, His Majesty has shared with me your plan. I wait with the excitement of a child. Walsey holds her gaze abeat. Then, to her shock, he grabs her wrist, hisses at her. I implore you, Lady Anne. If you truly love the King, you will remain his mistress and nothing more, for the sake of his kingdom. Anne angrily pulls her arm from his grip. Why should I not be Queen? You silly girl. Do you really believe the Pope will roll over?
56:01 Matt Forde? That the people will accept you instead of Queen Catherine? Such things are impossible. Anne instinctively moves her hand to her chest, pressing it against the ring that sits beneath the fabric of her bodice. She stares at Walsey unblinking and allows herself a small smile.
56:21 Matt Forde? Then, perhaps, Your Eminence, the King needs better advisers, who can make the impossible possible. Anne watches his superior expression falter. She brushes past him, head held high.
56:38 Matt Forde? Her betrothal to the king may be a secret, but she's never felt so sure of Henry's love. And if anyone dares get in her way, Catherine, Walsley, even those in Rome, they'll have to go. Anne will do whatever it takes to become England's next queen.
57:11 Alice Levine? I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari early and ad-free on Audible. Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant
57:56 Alice Levine? that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness, alone, with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
58:31 Matt Forde? From Wondery and Samistat Audio, this is the first episode in our series, Anne Berlin.
58:36 Alice Levine? A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
58:43 Matt Forde? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Hunting the Falcon, Henry VIII and Amberlyn by John Guy and Julia Fox. The Life and Death of Amberlyn by Eric Ives. You can listen to In Our Time, Catherine of Aragon, BBC Sounds, or you can watch The Berlins: A Scandalous Family on BBC iPlayer.
59:02 Alice Levine? We love hearing from you with comments and suggestions, so please keep them coming. [email protected] .
59:08 Matt Forde? British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.
59:10 Alice Levine? And me, Alice Levine.
59:12 Matt Forde? Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Dan King. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samizdat, our producer is Redsey Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dashar Lissitzina. For Wondery, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis, and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, and Marshall Louis.
59:59 Speaker 06 A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences, and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.
1:00:44 Speaker 06 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
1:01:00 Speaker 03 There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and The Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes
1:01:45 Speaker 03 of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.
Previous The Salisbury Poisonings | The Journalist Who Knew Too Much | 4 Next Anne Boleyn | The Great Matter | 2 Page updated November 2, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated