Why You Can’t Stop Eating Sugar And Ultra Processed Foods with Dr Jen Unwin #652

Ever wondered why you can’t stop at just one biscuit? Or why your efforts to eat better go so well for a few days, but you’re soon back where you started – frustrated, ashamed and wondering what’s wrong with you? This episode has the answers you need, along with a roadmap for regaining control. I’m speaking with Dr Jen Unwin, a clinical psychologist who has struggled with and overcome food addiction. And if you’re thinking ‘I didn’t think that was a thing’ then stay tuned for the facts that will convince you otherwise. Over decades trying to understand her own relationship with food, Jen discovered that for a significant number of people, a compulsive habit around sugar and ultra-processed foods is real and damaging. In this enlightening conversation, she explains how sugar lights up the same reward centres in the brain as nicotine and alcohol. And how our hunter-gatherer ancestors may not have needed an ‘off switch’ for eating, but our modern food industry makes it almost impossible for vulnerable people to say no. The research is strong – and Jen is part of a charity campaigning to have food addiction formally recognised by the World Health Organization. That way millions of people would be able to get help from their doctors, in the same way as people with drug and alcohol misuse disorders – instead of being dismissed for a lack of discipline or willpower. Many of us get cravings or have a fondness for sweet or ‘blissy’ foods. So when does that tip into addiction? Jen shares a clever, six-point, self-assessment tool called CRAVED, which you can use right now to understand whether your relationship with food might be problematic. And we get super practical, with advice on whether cutting down or going cold turkey is right for you, how to handle social situations when everyone around you is indulging, and how to set up your home environment for success. Whether you score one or six on the CRAVED scale, I’m certain there’s something in this conversation for everyone. And if you’re someone who has been battling this quietly, perhaps feeling ashamed or hopeless, I honestly believe Jen’s message might mark a turning point for you – one that helps you see a way forward. Fill out our audience survey via https://drchatterjee.com/survey Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://dohealth.co/livemore https://thesleepreset.com/podcast https://boncharge.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/652 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We've got these massive epidemics of obesity, type 2 diabetes, metabolic unwellness, and part of that story for some people is to do with the fact that they've got an addiction to sugar and these ultra-processed foods. We need to get food addiction recognised as an official condition. I think it legitimises then the harms it can do. And until we label it as an addiction, I think people will be stuck in this addictive relationship.

• 0:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  Hey guys, how are you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live More. Have you ever wondered why you can't stop at just one biscuit? Or why your efforts to eat better go well for a few days, but you're soon back to where you started? Well, my hope is that this week's episode has the answers you need, along with a roadmap for regaining control. Dr Jen Unwin is a clinical psychologist who has struggled with food addiction for many years. And if you're thinking, "I didn't think that was a thing",

• 1:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  then stay tuned for the facts that perhaps will convince you otherwise. Over decades, trying to understand her own relationship with foods, Jen discovered that for a significant number of people, a compulsive habit around sugar and ultra-processed foods is real and damaging. In this enlightening conversation, she explains how sugar lights up the same reward centres in the brain as nicotine and alcohol, and how our hunter-gatherer ancestors may not have needed an off switch for eating, but our modern food industry makes it almost impossible for vulnerable people to say no. The research is strong, and Jen is part of a charity campaigning to have

• 1:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  food addiction formally recognised by the World Health Organisation. That way, millions of people would be able to get help from their doctors in the same way as people with drug and alcohol misuse disorders, instead of being dismissed for a lack of discipline or willpower. So, when does a craving turn into an addiction? Well, that is exactly what you're about to find out in this week's episode. And you'll also get plenty of practical guidance, including how to handle social situations when everyone around you is indulging, and how to set up your home environment for success.

• 2:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  I really feel that the issue of why some people are unable to stop eating certain foods is something that has been ignored for far too long. And my hope is that this conversation provides some answers, guidance and reassurance.

• 2:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Many people blame themselves for lacking willpower around sugar. Is this a willpower problem, or is it an addiction one?

• 3:10Speaker 00

  It's so not a willpower problem, just to say to people, because, yes, people feel so self-blaming, don't they, and responsible for not being able to control what they eat. Yes, sugar has many effects in the brain, but one is to light up the reward centres, like other drugs, where other drugs like alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, they give us this sort of dopamine boost in the brain, which is the sort of reward motivation neurotransmitter. You're going to repeat the kind of things that give you that bit of a high, and sugar, sugar will do that. So some of us are more vulnerable than others, but because those are the primitive reward centres in the brain.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  It's not about logic, really. It's about a kind of primitive drive. So willpower, yes, maybe to some extent how you set up your environment and other things we can talk about in terms of how you can improve this problem. But once you've got into that addiction problem, you're never going to solve it with willpower. Now, it is much more about the effects of of sugar and refined carbohydrates, ultra-processed foods on the brain itself, I would say.

• 4:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, it's kind of interesting, isn't it? This idea that sugar can be addictive. I guess people would say, yes, there are addictive properties of sugary foods. But going that step further to say sugar addiction is a real problem, or ultra-processed food addiction is a real problem, is something that is still pretty controversial. You have been a clinical psychologist for many, many years. I think you identify as a food or sugar addict.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  I do.

• 5:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yourself.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  I do.

• 5:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  In your view, as someone who's at the cutting edge of this, Jen, why do you think this idea that food can be addictive for some people is so controversial?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're completely right. It is still controversial and people do say, which kind of makes sense, how can food be addictive because we need to eat? So it makes no sense that something we have to have can be addictive. So for example, people will say, you know, we don't need alcohol to survive, and alcohol is that substance which we know does have those effects in the brain, whereas food, we need it to survive. My kind of response to that is, well, it's not all food. So we say food addiction, but we can perhaps go into the nuance of what we should call this disorder. Some people say sugar addiction because.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  There is a lot of evidence now from brain studies that of those effects, I was saying about sugar sort of lighting up the reward centres. So, sugar we know is a substance that kind of lights up the brain. Refined carbohydrates, because they very soon become sugar, you know, they can have the same effect. And we don't have to eat those foods. So, obviously, we have to eat to survive, and we need nutrient-dense food to feed the body and brain. We don't have to eat sugar, and we certainly don't have to eat ultra-processed foods that have been manufactured in a factory and literally designed to hook us. The writing

• 6:44Speaker 00

  was on the wall for the cigarette companies. Those companies bought a lot of the big food companies and brought their marketing and their science to the formulation of those foods and literally have people in brain scanners while they're testing out their formulations to see what lights up the brain more. So they're literally designing these foods to get us hooked. There's that fantastic book by Michael Moss called Hooked, which exposes this whole industry. So, you know, we probably shouldn't call some of those things food. So that would be my argument, really, is that certain food-type substances

• 7:24Speaker 00

  have the same effects on the brain and can become addictive for some people. So we have to be... I think it really helps to think of the whole thing like alcohol. So, we know that most of us as adults get exposed to alcohol. Some people really like it. They have maybe too much, maybe harmful uses. But then some people will develop a real problem with their relationship with alcohol, will become a substance use disorder. I see it is exactly the same with these kinds of foods, that some of us have this, for whatever

• 8:05Speaker 00

  reason, genetic, trauma can be a factor, you know, just overexposure when we're very young. Um, we developed that substance use disorder, which is very different from people saying sort of blithely, I'm, you know, oh, I'm addicted to ice cream because they, they love it and they have it maybe a couple of times a week. It's very different a person with an actual food use disorder, the extent of the impact on their lives, for example. So although it's a continuum, you've got people who you wouldn't classify as having food addiction as such, and, and people that

• 8:45Speaker 00

  you really would. And those are the sort of people that, that I identify with and I'm trying to look into the, the research and look into the sort of treatment programs that can, can help people. But I think using that comparator is a really good, because everybody understands, all the public understand that, don't they? They understand that some people have lost control of their relationship with alcohol and they need to abstain. And so it's a very similar picture in my view, but it is still, it is still controversial. And obviously there are people who are very anti the idea, particularly the processed food industry.

• 9:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, well, we'll talk later perhaps about the merits of getting this established formally as a diagnostic category, you know, food addiction or sugar addiction. Okay. My hope for this conversation is that it helps people understand if they may have a problem with food, they, they may already know that anyway, but it may help them see in a different light.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  And then it's also really practical to help them actually start to do something about it. Because I think

• 9:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  one thing that I think we both seen lots of is this idea that knowledge doesn't always convert to action. People can read books or listen to podcasts about the damages of excess sugar intake, right? They can see about its relationship with type two diabetes or obesity or your teeth or whatever it might be. And they can even go on these two, three week elimination protocols or diets and go through the withdrawal and go, yeah, you know what? I've got so much energy, my skin's clearer, I can concentrate for longer, my sleep is better. Yet some people, that's not enough. They go back and as you said, right at the start,

• 10:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think one of the problems is that people then feel guilt and shame because Susan down the road can have a sweet treat at Christmas once a year and doesn't think about it for the rest of the year. Whereas other people, they just have it once. And I think you have a quote, one is too many, a thousand is never enough.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  I love that quote because it just, anybody who's listening, who has a food addiction problem will recognise that, that it's the first biscuit or the first spoon of ice cream that sets it, sets it off. And then you can't stop until you've had, you know, way too, way too much. And even that doesn't feel like enough.

• 11:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. What was the Pringles marketing campaign a few years ago? You know, once you pop, you can't stop now.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  They literally use those, yeah, marketing terms.

• 11:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  What I think a lot of people don't understand is that it sounds like a catchy marketing slogan, you know, nothing wrong there. They're just trying to market their products. But underpinning that is something really quite dangerous because a lot of people can't stop. They don't realise that that food has been engineered to hit the bliss point in your brain. So that if you are predisposed that way, you actually cannot stop.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  So let's just get some perspective here. Okay. We're, we're obviously living in, you know, a very toxic food environment in the 21st century, depending on where you live in the world. But I think in most countries now, it's become a very problematic food environment.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  If we go back to our hunter gatherer ancestors.

• 12:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Do you think that sugar addiction existed back then?

• 12:24Speaker 00

  That's such a great question and I love the evolutionary lens and I think it really helps us to sort of understand. So I think the reward centre evolved in the brain to keep us alive essentially, didn't it? And one of the things that we needed to do to stay alive was to eat as much as we could when it was available, because there would be times when it wasn't available and particularly in the winter. So this is, I think it's kind of, you know, widely talked about now, isn't it? That, you know, in the autumn, we needed to really eat all the fruit that we could find and it wouldn't be like, certainly in

• 13:04Speaker 00

  this country, it wasn't like we have now. There weren't banana trees and sugary mango trees and things like, things we can get now. There would be little sour berries, but you know, as many as we could eat would help us to put on weight. And the same with nuts, you know, they were there in the autumn and so we would get those. If, if we were really driven, and I probably would have been one of these people, we might shimmy up a tree and get some honey out of a tree from the bees. But we'd have to be really driven to do that because we're gonna get stung probably and, you know, maybe fall out of the tree. So we had to be really motivated to, to go and get that food. And that was how we survived. It wasn't available all year round. So we didn't even have eggs all year round. We

• 13:47Speaker 00

  would have had those. Everything was seasonal. And there's lots of evidence, isn't there, that wherever humans went, they basically led to the extinction of all the sort of fatty herbivores, because that was what we liked, what we liked to eat, meat and fat. So I, I think there wasn't, there wouldn't have been people who had a food addiction because the food wasn't, the environment didn't support that behaviour. You couldn't just go and, and get stuff. Whereas now it's all year round, it's everywhere. You don't even have to leave the sofa.

• 14:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's the key problem, isn't it?

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think because on several occasions, I've spoken to people who have spent time and lived with hunter gatherers.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  If I think last time I spoke to Daniel Lieberman, Professor Daniel Lieberman from Harvard. I think he told me that he has been out on a hunt with the Hatzah tribe. Who are hunter gatherer tribe, you know.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 14:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  Still living, I think, in Tanzania in the way that they've always lived to, you know, mostly. And I think he's been out with tribesmen when they find honey or they've had a long day out. They didn't manage to capture the whatever animal they were hunting. But they would literally gorge on honey. But they they found the honey, they got it, and they would literally almost like drink it. And so there's a couple of things for me that come up there, which is people say, oh, I've got a sweet tooth. You know, this is, well, I kind of think we've all got a sweet tooth, you know.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  We evolved to have it.

• 15:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly. It it served us very, very well in a different food environment. In this food environment.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  And our brains haven't, you know, that's such a small space of time from that food environment to this. In terms of evolution, our brains are just the same essentially.

• 15:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  But but going back to guilt, shame, lack of willpower. I think it's pretty clear that if you took those tribesmen and women and put them in a modern western city. In six months, you'd probably see the same patterns, right? It's I don't think they have any better ability to not take the sugar when it's there. And the reason I share that is because I know from chance of patients over the years. I know how many people beat themselves up on this. They think that they're the failure, there's something wrong with them. It's actually, no, it's this food environment. That's proving really problematic for you.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  We never needed an off switch for food. We always just needed an on switch motivated to go get. And I would have been one of those that was a that was a go getter for food. That's why I'm here, because my ancestors were good, were good at that. They were driven to survive and so that's that's how I'm here today. So we we never needed an off switch and now we haven't got an off switch and food is is everywhere. I mean, I'm amazed that anybody's a normal weight, to be honest. Or anybody isn't, everybody isn't too diabetic because.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, because of the environment that that we live in and and also the just the culture around food, uh, you know, now, today.

• 17:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. It's kind of interesting that you're surprised that anyone is of a normal weight these days, or what is considered in a verse comes a normal weight.

• 17:13Speaker 00

  I think you have to try quite hard to be healthy.

• 17:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, and if we look at the stats, it's unusual to be of a normal weight.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 17:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  In many countries now, certainly in America and here in the UK.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right. So the norm is to be overweight or obese.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  Metabolically.

• 17:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  Metabolically well, when your husband, David, came on a few months ago, we were chatting in detail about this.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 17:39Rangan Chatterjee?

  But I think you guys are the first husband and wife couple to have appeared on the show in a in in different conversations, not together, about relationship advice, although we could do that at some point in the future.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe.

• 17:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  Um, but this idea that it's not normal anymore, I think is something that we can all reflect on. And what does that say? Is there a risk, though, that this kind of message is disempowering? And what I mean by that is

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  if we're just victims to the food environment, I guess some people might make the case, Jen, that

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  well, there's nothing we can do until the food environment changes. I'm just playing devil's advocate there.

• 18:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I understand. Or people, people can feel so hopeless because that's the environment we live in. And

• 18:27Rangan Chatterjee?

  So give us some hope.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  It's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. So so the so the hope, of course, isn't it? It's exactly your your message of this podcast is that we can make small changes to our own environments. We can have control over the things that we do on a daily basis. That will really impact our metabolic health, but also cravings and the way that we respond to food. So it is supremely possible to become a food addict in recovery. It it just takes some effort. So I think another thing that I like to say is it's

• 19:07Speaker 00

  not your fault that you have these struggles. But once you know the information that we're talking about today, then it can become your responsibility to to do something different.

• 19:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Well, it almost has to become your responsibility because there's no other option.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's why I call the book Fork in the Road, because there are choices, we all have choices every day, you know, multiple times a day about which path we're choosing, whether we're choosing health and wellbeing, or whether we're choosing a path which is going to lead us into worse mental wellbeing, worse, worse physical health. And, and, you know, it can be difficult to always make the right choice. And I'm not saying, you know, any of us are perfect at that. You know, we all maybe take the the wrong step from time to time. But I think if we've got that, it's almost like having a lighthouse that you're, you're aiming for that even if you take a wrong step, you can still sort of reroute and and be following. You know, it's important that people are

• 20:05Speaker 00

  thinking about, well, when do they feel at their best? What's really important to them? So we were talking before we came on about family and that that's, that's so important. And I think if you can attach to those sorts of aims and and goals, in the moment, it can help you to make perhaps what seems the more difficult choice, but actually is the choice that's going to lead you, keep you well, lead you towards being able to live the life that you, you know, you were kind of born to live and not be living. I've got a lovely clip, which I often use in my lectures of one of the people that took part in our treatment study. And I, we asked him, what's it like to have food addiction? He just said, it's hell.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  You have no hope. You're on a roller coaster that you feel you just don't see any way off. You know, you feel you can't control your own behavior. You feel totally hopeless about that. That's no way to live. And I know because I've been there myself as well, that that's, it, that's a place where you're not connecting with family. You're not doing your best at work. You're not looking after yourself.

• 21:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  So. Yeah. As part of my research for this conversation, I watched your conversation with Ken Berry on his YouTube channel. And it's a fascinating conversation. What was even more fascinating was reading the comments under that interview. And I wrote a few down because when people challenge this idea that it's an addiction, and I get, I understand. And sometimes I think these are academic things because ultimately, what does an individual want? If an individual is consuming too much food, whether that be sugar, ultra-processed foods, or whatever else, in a way that's harming their physical health and mental wellbeing,

• 21:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  they want help to reduce stroke, stop that. Whether we as professionals call it an addiction or not, ultimately for that individual, they just want help, right?

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  And some of the comments underneath that video were these, right? One, one person said, I'm addicted to sugar. I gave up cigarettes so easy, never got back to it. But man, that sugar is really my drug. I can't stop it. Someone else, Jen said, I used to lie to my wife. Go out and secretly buy ice cream with cash so she couldn't track it. Someone else said, sugar is harder for me to quit than crack or meth was. I was a user of them for 11 years. If you heard those three comments.

• 22:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  About some other drug, you would probably go, they've got an addiction problem, wouldn't you?

• 22:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  But we don't go to that. So I guess, first of all, why do you think it's important to have this recognised as a formal addiction? Or do you think it's important?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Yes, I do think it's important. And the charity that I work with, that's one of our key aims, is to get the World Health Organisation to recognise this condition. So there's quite a lot of evidence, there's been a few research papers where if you label this kind of behaviour as addictive, you know, you might say, oh, that's stigmatising, or people don't want to be labelled as addictive. But actually, the research shows that that label makes people more sympathetic to themselves, and it also makes us more sympathetic to others, because then we can understand a behaviour that, on the face of it, looks illogical. You know, why you've got type 2 diabetes?

• 23:46Speaker 00

  Why are you still having ice cream every day, all these biscuits? You know, it seems like a crazy thing to do. But if we label it as an addiction, I think people these days do understand, for example, you know, most of us know someone who's had an alcohol problem. Well, we've seen it in the media where people have done that, and then they, through abstinence and other practices, they, you know, they're in recovery from that. So I think we can feel more sympathetic, number one. Number two, I think we've got these massive epidemics that we've sort of touched on of obesity, type 2 diabetes, metabolic unwellness, mental health problems.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  And could it be that part of that story is to do, for some people, and why, you know, they continue to suffer, is to do with the fact that they've got an addiction to sugar and these ultra-processed foods? And until we incorporate that in our treatment as healthcare professionals, they're never going to be successful. And also, you know, same with it, we're not really touched on eating disorders, which sort of overlap with food addiction, but. Many people with with an eating disorder actually have a food addiction and at the moment you can't get treatment for that in the in the UK.

• 25:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  You can't get treatment for what?

• 25:09Speaker 00

  For food addiction.

• 25:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  But you can, of course, for eating disorders.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  You can, of course, for eating disorders, but if someone was misdiagnosed and they actually had an eating disorder, a food addiction, beg your pardon, and they're in an eating disorder service, they're going to get the wrong approach of of treatment.

• 25:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  So are they quite markedly different, the approaches you would take?

• 25:30Speaker 00

  So generally, although obviously that's not my field of expertise, eating disorders, but generally, the idea of an eating disorder treatment programme is a sort of all foods fit, you know, it's good, you shouldn't restrict certain food categories and you should be able to sort of eat all foods. Now, when I was really in the midst of my food, if I'd gone into a programme like that, I never would have succeeded because I could never could eat all foods and be all right. So I couldn't have had biscuits and and been all right by definition because I'd lost my control of that relationship with them.

• 26:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  Because, as you say, one is too many, a thousand is never enough.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  So I'd never have been in in recovery there.

• 26:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, and we will get to your personal story, Jen, but my understanding is that there are certain foods now that you simply cannot have, not even one, and you've learnt over the years to go, no, no.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  I just abstained.

• 26:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's almost like a gateway food. If I start, I won't stop. And as you say, that might be different advice from what you're getting in an eating disorder clinic. So going back to that earlier question, I guess, one of the reasons why it might be so useful to get this recognised.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Is so there's a different treatment pathway.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  People get the right treatment and and treatment is is available. So at the moment, because it's not a recognised condition, of course, research isn't funded or treatment clinics aren't funded. So, you know, if you go to your GP and you say, I can't give up cigarettes, they can send you to the quit smoking service. If you have lost control of your relationship with alcohol, they can send you to the alcohol team or the the drug team. If you go to your GP and say, I'm addicted to sugar, I don't know what they would do unless they go and see David, obviously, and he's got a very good idea of what to do. But I think generally if people went to their doctors and said that, they wouldn't know where to

• 27:28Speaker 00

  refer them. And if they referred them to Eating Disorder Service, that may or may not be right for them. So we've made us now a second application to the WHO to get food addiction as a recognised disorder. So we've actually applied for it to be called Ultra Processed Food Use Disorder. That's where the most research exists. This use disorder term is the term that is used in the International Classification of Diseases. So you get Alcohol Use Disorder, for example.

• 27:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  Formal term.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  It's a formal term. So we've called it Ultra Processed Food Use Disorder. And I think that nicely points the finger where the finger needs pointing about where the problem is. It links back to this issue about the food supply. You know, I think in the last few years, there's been really this growing recognition of the dangers of ultra-processed food. You talk about it on the podcast. We've got the wonderful Chris Van Tolkens book, you know, lots of stuff. You've spoken to Rob Lustig. So I think we're starting to recognise the harms that those foods have on us physically and mentally. And for this proportion of vulnerable people, you know that they can get stuck in this addictive

• 28:43Speaker 00

  relationship.

• 28:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. And I think there's a wider point here for us to really unpack, which is that actually we should recognise that there are certain foods, which I guess Michael Pollan would call food-like substances, as opposed to foods, right, that can be addictive. So in your experience and from your research, what are the common foods that people have a problematic relationship with?

• 29:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change, the mornings are darker, everyone around you seems to be coming down with something and suddenly that wellbeing you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling and that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals and one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years. And one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to continuous

• 30:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  improvement and updating their formula as a scientific research involves. And each batch is independently tested for quality and safety markers, including heavy metals, allergens and banned substances. This is how they can guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. Right now, AG1 is offering a free AG1 flavour sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavours, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers. All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends.

• 30:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by Lingo by Abbott. When glucose is relatively stable, you feel better day to day with steadier energy, mood and focus. But over time, unstable and elevated glucose can impair your metabolic health and increase the risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Globally, more than 760 million adults are estimated to have prediabetes, many without symptoms or a diagnosis. Now, the problem is that our healthcare system often waits until you get sick before taking action, when we should take a proactive ...approach. Now, most of us don't have access to our own glucose data and therefore

• 31:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  don't have clear feedback on how our everyday choices impact our glucose. That's where Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps you see how food, movement, and lifestyle choices affect your glucose in real time, so you can notice patterns and build healthier habits in the moment. With Lingo, you can get to know your glucose to build healthier habits for today and tomorrow. For listeners in the US and UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a four-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/livemore

• 32:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/livemore.

• 32:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  So in your experience and from your research, what are the common foods that people have a problematic relationship with?

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. So things that have that combination of sugar, fat, refined grains.

• 32:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  And salt.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  And salt, yeah. Although salt on its own probably isn't the problem, but when it's combined with with these other things. So that's so many of the modern foods that we eat. You know, I mean, bread has got most of those things now, hasn't it? Sort of the industrially made bread, pizzas, donuts, you've got ice cream, cakes, biscuits, all of these sort of.

• 33:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  Tortilla chips.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Tortilla, yeah, Dorito type things, yeah, crunchy, as you said, so many ingredients and kind of formulated to hit that, that sweet, sour, salty, crunchy.

• 33:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, what I've noticed, Jen, is, and this is, obviously, you have to make progress somewhere. Like, if you can get the WHO, the World Health Organisation, to recognise it, you know, around ultra-processed foods, it opens the door to progressing that over the years, right? Because one thing...

• 33:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think, look, if we deal with ultra-processed foods first, you know, you can get perhaps an, in inverted commas, clean tortilla chip packet, right? Which only has three or four ingredients, but it's not only the ingredients, it's the combination of them together that becomes problematic.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn't have crunchy salt, sweet.

• 34:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  Together.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Together.

• 34:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  Which is a delight for the taste buds.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  It really is.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  And that's what, yeah, that's your brain lighting up, isn't it? You can almost feel it kind of ping, ping, ping, you know, when you, when you eat these things. Um, you, that's the pleasure, the reward. That's the, the brain kind of very quickly, because they, they enter the bloodstream very quickly. That's another thing about drugs, isn't it? The faster they enter the bloodstream and, and hit the brain, the more addictive they are. So foods that, we all know that foods that are whole foods, that are full of fibre and sort of natural, they get digested slowly, so those, the sugar and the, it's not, it doesn't hit the brain in the same way as these processed foods with processed grains, sugar, salt, fat, all, you know, quickly, quickly available.

• 34:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  People can also overeat whole foods, can't they?

• 35:02Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 35:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  Which I guess takes it beyond UPS, ultra-processed foods.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  Which of course I think is the main problem.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  But dairy, nuts.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I actually heard when you spoke to Ken Berry on that conversation, he was talking about a patient who was addicted to steak. I think if you remember that, Ken was saying to you that they cut bits of steak, put them in a ziploc bag and put them in the bathroom. And they'll sometimes sneak off to the bathroom, lock the door and eat what must be cold or room temperature steak, which, so. This whole idea of addiction, problematic relationships with food, it's massive, isn't it? And there's certainly a proportion of people

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  who are really struggling with that, which is why the conventional advice is often not working for them.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  They'll overeat anything in a way. There's a thing called volume addiction, where people kind of get addicted just to having large amounts of food. And there's many explanations being put forward. One is, you know, when you stretch the stomach, you actually get oxytocin, serotonin kind of release. So you do get, you know, in some ways, these sort of neurotransmitter highs. I think the other thing to remember is that with any addiction, it's not just about the substance.

• 36:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  It's about the behaviour. So it's about the cues. It's about who you're with, you know, the sort of social side of it. There's also the sort of comfort side of a certain behaviour. So that's where you can get this overlap with binge eating. Eating behaviours that are sort of triggered by emotional states because we eat for comfort, you know, or if there's a trauma history, we're maybe eating to, you know, to feel okay. Gabor Maté talks about this a lot, doesn't he? He's really the king of that topic, you know, that we're eating to sort of fill a void in a sense. So obviously, just like any addiction treatment, where people are coming into treatment,

• 37:03Speaker 00

  you have to take all of that into account. The other thing is that, say, so we were talking about nut butters before, weren't we as well? And how that is a combination of, you know, carbohydrate, fat, salt.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Again, which you wouldn't really have had so much in nature. So things like nuts and dairy do have that rare combination of fat, carbohydrate, protein.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  They're the only sort of whole foods that have that and they can be problematic. Well, for any of us, but certainly those of us that have, you know, develops a food addiction problem can very easily overeat those things. And the other thing about addiction that we kind of touched on, we didn't really go into is that once you've wired the brain for addiction, however that started, all addictions look the same in the brain. And so there was that, the lovely quotes you were getting from the people who'd listened to Ken's podcast about, you know, well, I gave up this, but then sugar was my problem. It is sort of one problem with

• 38:12Speaker 00

  with many outlets. And once you, if you treat somebody's main addiction problem,

• 38:19Speaker 00

  it's a very common thing that other things will try and take its place because you're still looking for that dopamine hit. So for example, if you go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, you see a lot of strong cups of coffee. You often see people smoking, you know, there's a lot of cake and biscuits because people are, people are trying to sort of get that hit. Or we all know if you give up smoking, people put on weight because they start eating Polar Mint.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Or another really stark example is when people have bariatric surgery because a lot of those people will be food addicts. And then they can't, you know, they can't get that comfort from food. And a known side effect of bariatric surgery is the development of a new alcohol use problem. Because people, people can still, you know, get the alcohol.

• 39:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  So you cut off one pipeline to that dopamine, but the brain has been wired and that enables you to still want that. So they can't get it from food because they feel full. They've had bariatric surgery, they're going to seek it out.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  They look for other sources of dopamine.

• 39:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  To get the same feeling, right? Because even going back to what you were saying before about emotions, of course, one of the biggest reasons that we overeat, I think whether you're a food addict or not.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Certainly from my clinical experience.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Comfort.

• 39:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  We eat our emotions.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  You know.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Stress.

• 39:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  We don't need a hole in our stomach. It's often the hole in our hearts. Right? Loneliness, stress, a day on Zooms when no natural light, we haven't been out, whatever it might be. Sugar gives you that nat- that quick hit.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  That quick hit or, or, you know, that sort of feeling to some extent of calm. Yeah.

• 40:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  One of the things I'm passionate about, and with every passing year, I become more and more passionate about this idea. Is that it's very rare that there's one piece of advice that works for everyone. Okay. So for example, in the context of what we're talking about, Jen.

• 40:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  It is common now with, you know, many nutrition professionals, not everyone, to be clear, but, but many people will say you shouldn't restrict anything. And I understand the rationale behind that, right? I totally understand the rationale behind that. And those professionals will probably share case studies, say, well, listen, I had a patient like this. And when I help them not restrict and say it's okay to have a little bit of everything, it works for them.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Agreed.

• 40:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  But then they make the next step, which is that's the advice for everyone. And it ain't.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  It's not. No.

• 41:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  What you're saying is you know that that approach worked for one of your clients or your patients. And maybe it worked for a hundred of them. It doesn't mean it works for everyone, as you say, and we'll get into your story. That approach probably wouldn't have worked for you. And, you know, that, that general advice that restriction means that you've got a problematic relationship with food, which is what many people say. I just think is nonsense, right? In this modern food environment, in my view, if you're not restricting something to a degree. You're probably going to be struggling with many aspects of your health.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's not the norm. That's what people expect people to say. That's just what I've experienced myself and that's what I've experienced with my patients over the years. You know, in fact, I would say from what I've seen, Jen, there's also this idea that. You know, health is about adding in stuff to your diet. You know, you know, blueberries do this, you want to add in blueberries. This food does that, you want to add that in. Great. I'm not against that. And I would say in my clinical career. Most of my benefit with patients has come from when they cut out stuff. So rather than adding in healthy things, they cut out things that were problematic.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  But that's not the conventional view.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think the word restriction is such a kind of.

• 42:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's a triggering word.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  It's a triggering word. We go, oh, you mustn't. And that's, you know, going back to the eating disorder side, and I can see why.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  You know, for some people, they've, they've over restricted.

• 42:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  They've dieted all their lives. I think if you restrict, so, so there's restricting calories and nutrition, which is a very bad idea. And then there's restricting certain things which are, which are harming you or which you can't control. But overall, you're really focusing on getting nutrient dense foods in, in the right amounts that the, the body needs. You're not restricting calories and you're not restricting.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Proteins and fats, essentially the essential ones that you, that you need.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  I think those are two completely different things.

• 43:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  And I think women particularly have over restricted calories, fat and protein. And in my view, this is why we see a lot more women come forward with sort of. Food addiction problems because they're, they're essentially malnourished and their bodies are sort of saying, you know, keep eating. Keep eating because we need, we need more nourishment. It's not, what they're eating isn't nutrient dense. So we, as you, you've said that we, you know, we've done treatment programs and, and we've even done some residentials where we've sort of had people. Around for the weekends and they're always amazed. So I work with Heidi, who's the nutritionist, Heidi Yeva.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  They're always amazed at the amount of protein that we both put on our plates and they're like, wow, you're gonna have that much protein. Well, yes, you know, that's, that's the amount you need. And I think, you know, as, as women, we'd all been trained that you must have put fat on it and you have to have this tiny amount of protein.

• 44:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think you, you bring some. You know, you raise some really important points, Jen, there. You know, if someone has been overly restricting, right? Maybe because of toxic diet culture and all kinds of things for a number of years. Yes, for that individual, it may be that actually the right approach is, hey, listen, you've overly restricted, we need to bring things in. We don't want you restricting anymore because restriction for you causes problems. At the same time, if someone has an overt problematic relationship with sugar or ultra-processed foods, restricting those things might be the best thing that ever happens to them, right?

• 44:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  So one of the things that I guess I just, I find gets people into problems these days. You know, there's, there's great that there's so much content out there. There's so much information for people to consume. And the downside is that too much of it becomes black or white. It's either that or that. And the truth is, a lot of different approaches work for a lot of different people. So the question is, what's the right approach?

• 45:25Speaker 00

  For you.

• 45:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  For you.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  And you have to, the only way, you're an N equals one experiment. This is what I've found with my own experience. And you have to work out which foods those are that, that trigger you and that don't. And you know, how to, how to nourish yourself with the, with the right amounts of foods that you need for your, you know, brain. Or, or all our genetics is so unique, aren't they? We've all got these different sort of.

• 45:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  So I think it's not, for me, it's not only our genetics. We've all got a different trauma history, a different childhood.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  And, you know, I, I, I used to see this all the time with patients that, you know, people think, oh, you know, my mom did this, it's in my genes. Well, yeah. Or it could be that you saw your mother's problematic relationship with food as a child and she emotionally ate, so you also emotionally ate. And I've also seen it where, and I'm not blaming anyone when I say this, it's just a neutral observation that for some, and it could be dads as well, you know? It could be that if your adult caregivers, when you were growing up. Emotionally ate and they did it in front of you. Sometimes they'll do that with you because it's a bonding. Hey, I don't feel good.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  Let's all have nap chocolates.

• 46:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's all have ice cream. Oh, for sure. There's a family culture.

• 46:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. And again, I'm not blaming anyone here, but it may be that you just observed that.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  You, you know, embodied it. And then at 40 years old now.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's now problematic for you. Maybe you got away with it as a teenager, but you ain't getting away with it anymore.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  And so for that individual, that needs to be looked at. I mean, I guess you spent.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Those behaviours are so ingrained in our psyche, aren't they? And I think the other thing, which is super important is that, so we never, we don't give our kids caffeine or alcohol or drugs. We just don't. But we give them sugar. And often that's kind of glorified, isn't it? You know, you're banging, you're crying, you know, come and have, come and sit down and, you know, have a lollipop or something. And so we give our children these foods that we now know because we've got the studies that show that they, you know, they're altering the structure and function of their brains.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  And I think society doesn't yet, it's changing, it's improving. But society doesn't yet view these foods with enough skepticism and enough

• 48:04Speaker 00

  concern for our children's health. Because once, as we've already said, once the brain is wired for addiction, it's wired. And if those children have got, there is a bit of a genetic component. There's also the kind of, like you say, the family culture component. If there's a traumatic situation going on.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  We show a brilliant video of Eric Clapton, who was famous for his drug and alcohol problems. And an interviewer says to him, you know, so when did it start? Was it cocaine kind of thing? He says, no, it was sugar. He said, when I was a kid, that was how I altered my, it's the thing I had available to alter my consciousness, my sense of, you know, how I felt. And so I, that was what I used. And I've spoken to a lot of people.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Who who say similar things. That was what they had available. They were in very difficult situations, but they could get sugar, ice cream, you know, crisps, and and that was their comfort.

• 49:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  You almost learn it subconsciously, you know, the human desire for most behaviours comes from this this need to change our state, right? We don't like the way we're feeling, you know, boredom, frustration, anger, whatever it might be, right?

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Lonely, yeah.

• 49:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  And so we want to engage in something to change that. And that something could be Instagram, TikTok.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  We've not talked about scrolling, but that's another dopamine hit.

• 49:39Rangan Chatterjee?

  But it could be a cigarette.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 49:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  It could also be food, right?

• 49:44Speaker 00

  A drink, alcohol.

• 49:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  And in many ways, they're all trying to do the same thing. So the question is, what have you been conditioned to?

• 49:51Speaker 00

  To do, yeah.

• 49:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  What's your kind of inverter comes drug of choice?

• 49:54Speaker 00

  What's available?

• 49:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, and you you bring it up with the children. And I think that's, you know, I had Professor Dale Bradison on a few months ago, this amazing neurologist, the first person to publish studies showing a reversal of Alzheimer's. This was early, right? But I think his first trial was in 2014, and it's a very novel approach. And I've spoken to some of his patients. I've been out and done intensives within America and helped him. And it's it's pretty phenomenal Dale's approach. And when he came on, because one of the things we were talking about is if someone has early cognitive decline, what can be done? And it's, you know, it's not just one thing, it's multiple things. But one of the things that Dale talks about, amongst many others, is reducing sugar intake, right?

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 50:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Talks about insulin resistance in the brain and how important it can be. And I've seen that with patients before, how it can literally have a marked improvement in cognition. But then you've got the problem of compliance, right? You can know, you know, someone might listen to the podcast with me and Dale and then go to their mum and their carers and say, hey, listen, we need to cut sugar. But it may be very hard to do it. And I said to Dale, the problem is, is a lot of people, a lot of family members won't deem it. They're like, that's, you know.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  You know, don't deprive them.

• 51:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly. Right? And, you know.

• 51:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  I guess everyone's got the right to make a decision for their life that they think is the best thing. So for someone, it might be, yeah, mum hasn't got much time left or dad doesn't have much time left. Why not let them enjoy it for the final few months? Okay. And I have a lot of sympathy with that. But what Dale was saying is that for a lot of people, he said, he said, it comes down to the societal education piece where you would naturally perhaps not want to give someone in a certain medical condition, a cigarette. You kind of go, listen, hey, you've got cancer here. Why, you've got lung cancer here. Don't smoke. Right? We don't see it the same way with sugar.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  The same way.

• 51:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Which is a problem.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yes, exactly. And it's going back to, why do we need to get food addiction recognised as, as an official condition? I think it legitimises then the harms, the harms it can do. And also, then you wouldn't be able to serve ultra-processed food in schools or hospitals. So we don't now, there was a time, wasn't there, when you, I remember when my grandad was in hospital, you could have a bottle of Guinness or something. It wasn't, it wasn't banned. Well, now you wouldn't ever see people drinking or smoking in hospital. But if you look at what people are eating and what's in the vending machines, and also what's been sold in the

• 52:38Speaker 00

  foyers of hospitals, you know, to people like me that know, really know the harms on a very personal level, it's shocking, the nutrition in hospitals and schools.

• 52:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  Let's get super practical, Jen.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  How might somebody who's listening to this?

• 53:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  Get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food? Are there any symptoms, signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help them identify that?

• 53:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change, the mornings are darker, everyone around you seems to be coming down with something and suddenly that wellbeing you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling and that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals and one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years. And one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to continuous

• 53:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  improvement and updating their formula as a scientific research involves. And each batch is independently tested for quality and safety markers, including heavy metals, allergens and banned substances. This is how they can guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. Right now, AG1 is offering a free AG1 flavour sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavours, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers.

• 54:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends. Today's episode is sponsored by Lingo by Abbott. When glucose is relatively stable, you feel better day to day with steadier energy, mood and focus. But over time, unstable and elevated glucose can impair your metabolic health and increase the risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Globally, more than 760 million adults are estimated to have prediabetes, many without symptoms or a diagnosis. Now, the problem is that our healthcare system often waits until you get sick before taking action, when we should take a proactive

• 55:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Approach that most of us don't have access to our own glucose data and therefore don't have clear feedback on how our everyday choices impact our glucose. That's where Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps you see how food, movement and lifestyle choices affect your glucose in real time. So you can notice patterns and build healthier habits in the moment. With Lingo, you can get to know your glucose to build healthier habits for today and tomorrow. For listeners in the US and UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a four week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/livemore for more information.

• 56:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/livemore. How might somebody who's listening to this? Get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food. Are there any symptoms, signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help them identify that?

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Yes. So what we did is we took the six symptoms that the WHO used to define substance use disorder. We've made them into a little screening questionnaire called Craved. So I love an acronym. So Craved is the six symptoms that you'd look out for for any substance use disorder. But as we go through them, I think you and everybody else will see how well these can actually apply to people's behaviour with food. So if you play along and you know, count up, people who people are listening can say, well, how many of these would you feel would apply to you?

• 57:13Speaker 00

  And three or more is the cutoff in the ICD criteria, three or more of these symptoms would be the cutoff, not for diagnosis, obviously, because it's not a diagnosis, but this would indicate that maybe you've got some addictive like symptoms in relation to your food behaviour. So C is obviously for cravings and compulsions.

• 57:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  So does someone listening have a craving or compulsion for a certain food?

• 57:41Speaker 00

  For certain foods that feel so strong that, you know, you struggle to resist it or you can't resist it.

• 57:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I think we can all recognise that. R stands for reaching for more and this gets at the idea that we all understand um tolerance. We all understand it in relation to alcohol, don't we? So if you have a one drink, you might feel a little bit of an effect. If you have one drink every night, after a while, you're not going to feel so much of an effect from that. So you might then start having two glasses a while a night to get. So you need more and more to get the same effect. So that's what R stands for, reaching for more. So you might, you know, it might have been a couple of biscuits, but now, once you've opened the biscuits, it ends up being half a packet or a whole packet. So needing more and more to feel um kind of the feeling that you were

• 58:33Rangan Chatterjee?

  satiated in some way.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  You were hoping to sort of feel calm or whatever it is. A is for activities neglected and this gets at the idea that when people start getting addicted to substances, it sort of starts to fill up their whole lives. So they stop thinking so much about family. They stop thinking about hobbies. They stop thinking about doing well at work. Um.

• 58:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  It becomes all encompassing in their minds.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  And other things sort of, you know, closing down. So is that happening?

• 59:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Can I just ask Jen there? Um, when I was reading out some of the comments before the people left on that YouTube video.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 59:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Um, that second comment I read out to you was, I used to lie to my wife and secretly buy ice cream with cash as she couldn't track it. Does, that doesn't quite qualify for A for activities neglected, does it?

• 59:24Speaker 00

  It kind of does because that's going to affect your relationship with the wife, this kind of secrecy.

• 59:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, because secrecy is, you don't really want to be lying to your

• 59:34Speaker 00

  spouse.

• 59:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  Spouse, your partner, do you?

• 59:36Speaker 00

  Totally honest with them.

• 59:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's not a great position to be in, basically.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Place to start, is it? So, yeah, so yeah, that would, that would definitely count. And you're kind of, yeah, you're, it would be that preoccupation where, you know, presumably that person is. You know, even while they're perhaps having a conversation with their spouse, thinking, right, when can I sneak off? I mean, I can remember doing this, thinking, when can I, when can I have half an hour so I can drive to View, this, I literally did this, drive to View Cinema and get a Ben and Jerry's ice cream, because that's what I really, really want right now. And I'm, I sit in the car and eat it and then drive home and pretend that I've been to the post office or something.

• 1:00:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jen, what's so interesting is if you did that with anything else, like alcohol or cocaine, right?

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  People would naturally go.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  You've really got a problem.

• 1:00:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  You've got a problem here.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right. You're lying to your husband.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  You're nipping out of the house.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  You're, you're, you're shooting up with your drug of choice.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  In the car.

• 1:00:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  In the car. And then you get back and you are dishonest about where you've been.

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right?

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  Because you feel so ashamed and you, it, you know, it's out of control. So you, you don't want to talk about it. Because also the other thing is that the addiction, I want, have to put it into words really, it, it wants you to keep getting the substance. So it doesn't want you to talk about it.

• 1:00:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Okay. So we've got cravings that feel so strong that you can't resist.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  R is.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  Reaching for more.

• 1:01:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  Reaching for more.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Tolerance, the idea of tolerance.

• 1:01:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay. And A is, you know, activity is neglected. Okay. I, I reckon already on those three, there'll be people listening right now. If you're watching it on YouTube, guys, let us know in the comments where you're up to with this. Okay. What about V E D?

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  So V is for volume, and this is losing control of the amount, which is this thing we, we said, one's too many, a thousand's never enough. So maybe, you know, it's pizza night with the kids and you say, right, I'm, I'm just going to have one slice because I'm on a diet this week, one slice with salad. And then it, it can't be one slice because you, you end up wanting two, three slices. The kids have gone to bed, you eat, you have, have the leftovers, you know, you lose control of volume. So V is for volume.

• 1:01:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  E.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  E is for exclusion and this is the idea of withdrawal symptoms, which everybody will recognise in terms of any other addiction. We know that one of the key problems of quitting any addictive substances is that you get withdrawal symptoms. So for example, I quit caffeine a few years ago. I suffered quite badly with withdrawal symptoms that were clearly physiological. Same for alcohol. We know people get withdrawal symptoms, nicotine. So with sugar and ultra-processed foods, you can get sort of shaky feelings, you can get headaches, you can get gastrointestinal problems, sleep problems, mood problems. Everybody recognises that people can be grumpy as, you know, they

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  market foods, don't they, saying, you know, you're very grumpy, so you ought to have a chocolate bar. I saw an advert like that recently.

• 1:02:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  I saw that. It's hiding in plain sight, basically, the problematic relationship, isn't it?

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  They're actually marketing it as a cure for the withdrawal symptom that it causes. Yeah. So, yeah, so E is for an exclusion. So if you get withdrawal symptoms when you try and quit, and of course, this is one reason, like you were saying, people can't stay abstinent, and it's because oftentimes they haven't even got through the proper sort of physiological withdrawal phase, because it's awful.

• 1:03:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  How long does it typically take for people, would you say?

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  Typically, I would say maybe seven, six, seven, eight days for the sort of physiological withdrawal. Obviously, after that, you still get cravings to some extent, but you shouldn't, your physiology should be adjusted.

• 1:03:27Rangan Chatterjee?

  So it's quite a bit of time. You have to be ready before you go through this to go through that sort of valley.

• 1:03:32Speaker 00

  But if you want to do it, cold turkey, we're going to probably come on to talking about how people might shift towards being more abstinent. You don't have to do it cold turkey. That's just the way that I like to do things.

• 1:03:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay, so V for volume, E for exclusion and withdrawal.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  And D, this is the big one, really. And it's the defining.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Characteristic of any addiction, it's continued use despite damage. So even if you know, so for example, cigarettes, everybody knows they're bad for you. And there's a horrible picture on the thing. Even so, you're going to smoke that cigarette. So it's the same with with sugar and ultra processed foods. Maybe you've got a diagnosis of type two diabetes. You know, maybe you you know you're overweight and sort of metabolically not healthy. You'd rather, you know, be losing weight.

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Even though you've maybe depressed and you know that the way that you eat is affecting your mental health. Because you, you know, you you feel that's the case. Even so, you you can't quit. You're you're continuing to use

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  these ultra processed foods and sugars to to kind of feel better. So you're on that terrible treadmill. So, um, yeah, despite knowing it's doing you harm, you struggling to quit.

• 1:04:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  I mean, I imagine anyone who's got a problematic relationship with any food will score on the D. Well, they'll definitely score on the D. Because

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Because they want to change.

• 1:05:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly. They're wanting to change, wanting to be healthier, but and despite knowing the problems of that food, they can't stop eating it.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay. So did you score six out of six?

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  I I've always scored six.

• 1:05:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  So the maximum score is six?

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  The maximum score is six.

• 1:05:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Fine. So what if, so someone like you in the past would score six?

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  What if someone just scores a one on that? It's like, um, yeah, you know what? I sometimes have a craving for that food that I I can't something about it. But, you know, it doesn't affect the rest of my life. I don't reach for more. I don't have a loss of control on volume. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:05:46Speaker 00

  So that would be amazing. One or two.

• 1:05:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's sort of normal.

• 1:05:49Speaker 00

  That's kind of normal. And I would say, great, just be be careful, be aware that these these foods,

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  you know, can be doing harm to the brain. You know, you don't want to have loads of them. If if you could, so I do know the occasional, but my mother in law, in fact, has has biscuits in her cupboard that have been there about six years. So she can, she can take them or leave them. She'll have one and, um,

• 1:06:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  And people like that, because they exist.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I'm taking this beyond your mother in law, just for people who have a relationship with food that they can have it now and again.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  The problem is, I think, sometimes they can't understand what it's like for people who don't have that, right?

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  Exactly. So she really struggled with what it was like to be me and that I couldn't. She, and she's a lovely cook as well. So she'd make me this amazing cheesecake, which was my favorite thing.

• 1:06:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  Fat, sugar.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Yes, a bit of salt in the digestive, but yeah, delicious. And I had to say, you know, it's amazing. I love it, but I just, I'm not going to have any because if I have one slice, I'm going to eat half the thing. And it's taken her a long time to really see that that can be, she intellectually understands it.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  But I think people have to really take the leap to be able to say, yeah, I understand, even though that isn't my problem. You know, that if, if somebody tells you, you know, I'm trying to quit sugar, please support me, then please support them. Because it is really, really a hard thing to do, exactly like alcohol. So if you had a friend that was quitting alcohol, you wouldn't take them to the pub or bake them, you know, bring them a special bottle of whiskey because it was their birthday. You'd encourage them. You'd say, let's go for a walk, you know, I've made you a nice meal. You know, well done you. You'd really encourage them.

• 1:07:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  We're getting into possible strategies that people can use. And I want to be mindful of the fact that not everyone listening is going to identify full on six out of six.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:08:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? Some are going to be, you know, at three, which still qualifies, I guess.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  So three, you know, maybe, so it's a bit more like with sort of saying quotes, harmful use it. You know, maybe there are times or vulnerabilities when you're eating too many of those kinds of foods.

• 1:08:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Or could it be for some people, like I certainly would recognize this myself.

• 1:08:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  You know, if you're super stressed or there's stuff going on or one of your family members isn't well, you might go to these things, these foods as, you know, just a coping mechanism, basically.

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  From time to time. Yeah, David's more in this category as well.

• 1:08:39Rangan Chatterjee?

  For people who don't know, David is your husband, Dr David Unwin, who was on the podcast a few months ago now.

• 1:08:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  Very popular episode, talking about all his work with low carb diets, reversing type 2 diabetes and metabolic dysfunction. So continue, just in case people haven't heard that one.

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  Yes. So he was definitely a harmful user. He did, he did develop type 2 diabetes and that was because he did, you know, he did have a sweet tooth. He did love all those foods, but he wasn't, he could come back from holiday and just go, right, I'm having a healthy week. And just, that was fine. He could do that very easily. He could sort of reset and not eat those foods. Whereas I would come back from a holiday and if we'd kind of overindulge on those kinds of foods, I would, I would find it really, really hard to sort of pull back, you know, the lid was off, if you like. So.

• 1:09:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  So you identify as a food addict.

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  And David does not.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  He does not.

• 1:09:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay, that's really interesting.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay, so let's think about these practical strategies. You mentioned already that cold turkey is one option, but it's not the only option. So if someone has basically identified with several of those on the Craved questionnaire, they're going, you know, I think I've got a problematic relationship with certain foods some other time. How do you start advising them if they want to start changing that, basically?

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. So number one is, we talked right at the beginning about this lighthouse, about why, well, why would you want to change? Because it's actually going to be quite hard. So what's your guiding light? What's going to really keep you going when the cravings come? What's your reason for wanting to change your relationship with foods? You know, and kind of, you know, just saying, oh, I want to lose weight, isn't, isn't a good enough reason. You know, what would be better if you lost weight? What would be different about your life? You know, why do you want to do this? And what's that sort of motivation? So it might be to do with, you know, your kids, being able to play with the kids or, you know, staying alive long enough to see the, the kids do certain things. You maybe

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  want to be an example to the, to the kids. But finding some, some real motivation is, is, is probably step one.

• 1:10:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Step two is being totally honest, brutally honest about the drug foods again in quotes. So which which foods occupy your mind?

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  Might you have a secret stash or often food addicts have secret stashes of their favorite things because they don't want to run out?

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  You know, what are those things? You know, what are you kind of literally thinking? It's going to be really hard to live without. It's nearly always the things that David has conversations who say, I literally can't live without, I couldn't live without bread. You know, lots of people, it's not sweet things always, it's say, it can be savory things as well. And bread is such a common one, actually. So if there are foods like that, that you're saying, I couldn't live without.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  Probably that's something to think about. And I would, you know, make a make an honest list of all the the foods that you're having, where the relationship is that one of loss of control.

• 1:11:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 00

  Cravings, needing more and more, losing control of the amount, continuing to have them even though you know, you know, they're doing you harm.

• 1:11:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. I've heard you say that you often ask people to write down.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  A list, you know, I lose control over and then actually write down those foods.

• 1:12:08Speaker 00

  Write them down.

• 1:12:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  There's something powerful about writing something down, isn't there?

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 1:12:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  You can think about it and go, yeah, yeah. But I think, well, we know there's incredible benefits to journaling. I think one of the benefits is that you see it in front of you. You've had to take it out of your brain.

• 1:12:21Speaker 00

  Put it down.

• 1:12:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Put it down. You you see it back. It kind of makes it real.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think in a way that just thinking about things often doesn't.

• 1:12:29Speaker 00

  Yes, no, absolutely. The other thing we we didn't, I didn't mention about when we, when our brains in that state of high dopamine and that sort of reward centers flowing. Another thing that happens is it actually cuts us off from our frontal lobes. And again, they think this is probably an evolutionary thing, that when you were driven to go and hunt, you had to, in a way, not think about it too much because you, it's dangerous. So you you may have decided, oh, we won't bother today. No, you needed to be really driven. So our frontal lobes are a bit cut off. So.

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  In the, in the moment of the cravings and the eating and our frontal lobes aren't really, so you can't think your way out of addiction. You have to sort of plan your way out. So one way is to be writing things down, to be really clear and to be making a plan because then you've, you've sort of, you've put your frontal lobes on, on the paper, if you like, and you've done that at a time when your, your brain's working properly.

• 1:13:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  Once you, once you're, once you're in the food, it's really hard to stop that behaviour when you're on the runway. So yeah, so write it down. Um.

• 1:13:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think you said that one of the things you asked me to write down is, I know I'm in trouble when.

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  Oh, yes, that's such, such a good one.

• 1:13:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think that's such a great piece of dice.

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  Yes. I know I'm in trouble when, and that's the moment before you know you're gonna get on that runway. So for example, one of my ones would be, I know I'm in trouble when I'm randomly opening kitchen doors, cupboard doors in the kitchen. I don't know if you ever do that and you're not even hungry, especially when you just kind of, I'm just gonna have a look what's in here. Um, and.

• 1:14:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  Does anyone not do that?

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  If you're unlucky, there are things in there you probably shouldn't be having. So another, another thing that we'll talk about is that you can really engineer your own environment to support your recovery. But, oh, just I'm looking in there. And of course, if there was chocolate in there and I was, you know, I'd had a long day or something stressful going on, or I was hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, I, I might succumb if I saw it because then the minute I see it, the brake, the dopamine's already going on the visual cues.

• 1:14:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  And that's how the, of course, that's how the marketing works for all these, you know, companies that have their branding, you know, the. Well, we won't mention any, but everybody knows the branding for the, the big companies. And it's almost like the minute you see that branding or that advertising. That's why they advertise in the evening on the, on the television because we're all vulnerable.

• 1:15:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  Willpower's gone.

• 1:15:07Speaker 00

  Willpower's absolutely gone. We're sitting watching the telly. Get on to whoever delivered, you know, delivers the, the food.

• 1:15:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  Well, that of course has made it hard because, you know, it's, you don't even need to go out anymore and go and you can get it delivered to, you know, while she's still on the sofa watching, which of course for people who are prone to that makes it really difficult. This idea of writing down, I know I'm in trouble when, and as you said, for you, when I'm randomly opening cupboards in the kitchen, looking for something, which of course may not be physical hunger. It's more likely to be emotional hunger. Reminds me of something literally earlier this week, um, a chap called Nir Eyal was in the studio. He's an author. His latest book is called Beyond Belief and

• 1:15:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  in that book and in our podcast together, he shared how he was trying to lose weight for years. And he said, every diet worked when I was on it.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:16:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay.

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:16:01Rangan Chatterjee?

  But he didn't stay on many of them for long and he explains what changed, but one of the tactics he spoke about beyond food, this is just for making change in life. It's something called mental contrasting. And a lot of people only imagine best case scenarios, right? So on January the first, oh, you know, I'm going to eat well this year and go to the gym. Like you're just imagining best case scenario.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  And he was talking, and I think it's very similar to your exercise about this idea that when he started to get really good with his choices or, or he was making better choices for his goal. He was also planning, what happens when I'm out for dinner? And someone offers me chocolate cake.

• 1:16:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Cause I know I'm going to be tempted. So. I guess he was calling this mental contrasting, but it's the same kind of approach, isn't it?

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  You have to rehearse it.

• 1:16:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  You have to plan when your frontal cortex, your rational brain is online, not when it's offline. And maybe you've had a couple of glasses of wine and you're like, yeah, yeah, go on, I'll have it.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:17:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  And so let's say someone wants, because I think peer pressure.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's massive.

• 1:17:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Really hard, right? And Jen, you've worked with so many patients and clients to help them through this, right? So if someone says, look, when I'm left to my own devices, I'm pretty good.

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  At home, you've got your own environment.

• 1:17:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Or at work, when it's someone's birthday and they're bringing the Quality Street and all the home baked cakes or whatever.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  And people come around and say, oh, it's fine. It's just one, right? Yeah, one's not going to do you any harm. What advice do you have for that individual? How can they handle that scenario?

• 1:17:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really hard for people in the beginning because you're kind of trying to change how people see you to some extent, aren't you? And that, you know, we know, we don't like to have those. And how you see yourself and how to have those sort of difficult conversations. And I think it is, again, as we were saying at the beginning, it's a very individual thing. So people need to work out what would they be comfortable saying. So we sometimes, you know, give them a few examples or what's wonderful in a group, of course, is you can say, you know, what people would say. Oh God, I find it really hard when Jane at work, who, you know, is a fantastic baker and she'll bring in the cupcakes. And we can say to the group, you know, what, what have, how have you handled that? And how have you handled that? And we get some examples.

• 1:18:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  When you say the groups, you're not talking about at work with your colleagues. You're talking about in the sort of.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  In a treatment group.

• 1:18:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  In a food addiction group.

• 1:18:32Speaker 00

  Or a support group, you know, it can be really good to get other people's advice on that. So we would often say, well, I would sort of say how it is that I'd handled it and some, they'd get some other ideas. And then they'd say, well, maybe I could do this. And we had one lady actually who had a group of friends. They always went out for coffee and a cake. It was kind of part of her, important part of her week. And she was like, how am I gonna handle it? And then she rehearsed it with her husband, like, you know, what she was going to say. She was going to say, you know, I'm really trying to look after my health. You know, I'm gonna come for coffee. I love being with you guys, but you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna have, have the cake. And I really hope you can all support me because, you know, this is so important to me. So, but it has to come from that person, doesn't it? They have to.

• 1:19:17Speaker 00

  Feel that that's something they really could say, but it's great. It is great to rehearse it to sort of, you know, say it to a loved one that that's what you're going to do so that you're not, you don't find yourself in that situation and you haven't got a script almost, you haven't got a, it sounds like that's what he was saying, that he would, he would rehearse what he was going to say.

• 1:19:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I would just add to that, you know, if you in inverted commas fail, first of all, it's not failure, right? Each time you do that, it's a learning process.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  Never failure.

• 1:19:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? But let's say you're trying to cut back on sugar or certain, you know, foods that you have a problematic relationship, like let's say cake, you're trying not to have. If you do succumb and have it.

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  Don't feel bad about it. Try, I guess, try and analyse what happened.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  Exactly. What led up to it? You know, background factors? And then what would you do differently next time? What have you?

• 1:20:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 1:20:11Speaker 00

  Learned? Because generally, yeah, people are a bit disappointed in themselves and they often don't feel so well. If they've been off the sugars for a while and then they have it, they usually feel pretty rubbish actually. So they're able to say, well, you know, I've learnt, I don't feel so great when I do that. Often it's sort of things like travelling or, you know, they're stuck somewhere without, you know, they're on a train, there's nothing else to eat that you can buy that they want to eat that's sort of from the food car. So, you know, they might think, well, another time I'm going to take stuff with me. And that's, that's a great learning point. So then next time. And then also the other thing is that if you, if you have a slip up, just get back on track as fast as you can. Don't let it slide because you're like you say, self criticizing

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  or thinking I'm hopeless, I'll never do it. You know, it's all too hard. Just, just learn from it and get, get back on track. It's like riding a bike. You just have to get back on.

• 1:21:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  One thing I think a lot about Jen is how skills that we learn in one area of life are transferable to so many other areas. And I think there's a, there's real relevance to what you're just talking about there. Right? So let's say you're someone, and you know, frankly, I've seen this thousands of times over my career and I've got friends who struggle with this, right? So this is so, so common, but they struggle to assert themselves and speak up for themselves in particular environments. So let's say you have a problematic relationship with cakes or desserts when you're out with your friends, whatever.

• 1:21:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  And you struggle, you don't want to let people down. What will they think? You know, all your buddies.

• 1:21:51Speaker 00

  Everyone else is having it.

• 1:21:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  Everyone's having one.

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  I thought I'm gonna be the weird one if I don't have it. They're all gonna be thinking, oh god, look at him, or whatever, right? Which, which is very, very real. If you can learn the skill over time, maybe you'll get it wrong a few times, of being able to speak up for yourself.

• 1:22:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  And it said, hey, guys, listen, you guys go for your life. Enjoy it, have it. I'm just not eating like that anymore, right? A, you've got a problem. Well, one of the problems is that when you, you definitely see this with alcohol, but I've seen this with my mates before with sugar. You, or some of my mates, I should say.

• 1:22:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  It almost feels like a criticism of them. They often take it as a critique of them because you, whatever, deciding not to drink or not having a dessert, in some ways, is a mirror back on to them.

• 1:22:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:22:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Only if they've got a problematic relationship. Because if they don't, it's like, why the hell does it matter?

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  Why do they care?

• 1:22:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  Hey, listen, I'm gonna enjoy my chocolate cake. If you don't want it, and you don't want to have it, I'm still gonna enjoy.

• 1:22:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? But going back to my point is, if you're someone who struggles and you learn how to speak up for yourself.

• 1:22:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  That won't just help you with that food.

• 1:23:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  That will help you in every other aspect of your life.

• 1:23:05Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Because you're putting yourself first.

• 1:23:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. You could even look at it as go, oh my god, it's so unlucky that I've got this. And yes, of course, in the modern food environment, it is unlucky if you have that sort of relationship with food. It's not ideal, but you can also turn it into a real strength. If you can learn the skills to get through it.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  It can transform your life in so many other ways.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  And you're right, the, the sugar pushers will come out of the woodwork when you try and change your behaviour. That, some people will, will try and push back, but it is usually because you're making them feel uncomfortable because they've got a problem.

• 1:23:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay, so that's social settings. What's your take on cold turkey versus gradual?

• 1:23:49Speaker 00

  Right. There's many roads to the same destination. And this has, it has to be individual because you've got to feel that's the right, you know, the right way for you. So, um, some people choose to sort of.

• 1:24:04Speaker 00

  Slowly cut down or or to maybe eliminate perhaps the the worst defending food. You know, they might decide to sort of cut things out bit by bit now, and that can work. It can obviously take a bit longer and it can be for people that are a very kind of end stage. Let's say, I don't think it would have worked for me because there would still be, you're still having, in a sense, some of the substance. I'm you're still having maybe other things with sugars or refined carbohydrates. So that can sort of pull you back in. So there's there's pros and cons to that.

• 1:24:42Speaker 00

  There's obviously pros and cons to going cold turkey because, um, well, it can be, it's a bit of a shock to the system. And you can feel pretty rough for, as we've said, about a week. The other thing is that anybody on medication of diabetes or blood pressure or other medications shouldn't do that without talking to their healthcare provider. Because if your blood sugar goes down and you're on, say, blood sugar lowering medications, we don't want anybody coming to any harm. Or, you know, your blood pressure can sort of reduce as well. So anyone who's on medication probably shouldn't go cold turkey without, uh, unless they've got proper supervision for their medications.

• 1:25:23Speaker 00

  A lot of those of us with sort of addiction problems have got very black and white brains, you know, it's kind of yes or no, it's black or white. So for me, cold turkey felt like, once I'd understood the, once I'd got to the point of understanding that it was an addiction and that these were the problematic things, um, then it it just made sense to me, right? Okay, that was the right thing to do, just to quit completely and then deal with the consequences, if you like. So this is sort of physiological withdrawal and then there's the sort of. You can get sort of cravings for a while afterwards. And the other thing is that we've talked a lot about food, but like any other addiction recovery program,

• 1:26:05Speaker 00

  it isn't just about the food, as you know, because you've spoken to so many people about sort of, you know, this same sort of topic, that it has to be beyond the food as well. You have to understand if you've been using food for comfort, to fill a hole, to sort of, you know, deal with difficult memories or whatever, you have to find a way, another way to deal with those things. Because otherwise you're going to get drawn back in to the food or some other substance at some time. So it's all about advocating for yourself, as you said, you know, self-care on many levels.

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  So I've had to learn, I was an exercise hater to clear school, mostly because I was overweight, mostly because I was addicted to sugar. But I've, I've come to love it. I've come to love exercising to feel the mental benefits of it and the physical benefits. I, you know, have had to sort of use techniques like, you know, yoga and these kinds of things to sort of feel, feel calmer. I, I have hobbies that are very calming, like knitting and crochet that I can do to sort of keep away from the food, just something else to think about, you know. So people have to think beyond, beyond the food as well.

• 1:27:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I guess the, the point that comes to mind there is, I think, a really empowering message for people.

• 1:27:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  From your story, Jen, and your husband David's story, when he was on the podcast a few months ago. It really seems as though both of you have come into a new lease of life with your health and frankly, your lives in your 50s and 60s.

• 1:28:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:28:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I just wanna highlight that because many people feel it's too late for them to change.

• 1:28:08Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:28:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  When you just said there that you used to hate exercise and you think it's primarily because you were overweight, primarily because you were addicted to sugar.

• 1:28:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:28:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  There will be so many people listening.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  Who also recognize that and have told themselves a story that exercise is not for them. But actually, it wasn't that exercise wasn't for them, it was in the state in which they were in.

• 1:28:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  They were unable to enjoy moving their bodies.

• 1:28:35Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:28:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  But if you can gain some degree of mastery over your food environment, recognize it as an addiction, if it is an addiction for you, take certain steps to change things. Well, you never know. Like David said to me, how old's David now, was he 67?

• 1:28:53Speaker 00

  67.

• 1:28:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  67, yeah. He's telling me he's like, he's probably the fittest he's ever been.

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  He, he looks good, he feels good, he's cognitively sharp, he's running faster than he's run before.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  This is a very, very empowering message for people. So if anyone feels it's too late and actually, oh, they've had problems with sugar their whole life, you Jen and your husband David, I think are shining examples.

• 1:29:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  That you can change at any time.

• 1:29:21Speaker 00

  You just start to feel, once you've quit all of that stuff, you weirdly start to want to move and you start to feel more energetic. And we've seen that in many, many of David's patients as well. It wasn't about getting them to take more exercise to lose weight. Once they get control of the food, they naturally lost weight. And then we didn't even say, go on exercise. They'd come back and say, oh, I've joined, you know, I've joined the gym or I'm walking every evening after my meal, or they just feel more like moving because their mitochondria are working, your brain's working, you just feel like more like sort of exercising.

• 1:29:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  What was his name, was it Chris, David's patient?

• 1:29:57Speaker 00

  Chris, that you, of course.

• 1:29:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Who I spoke to as part of my Channel 4 show that came out in January, Live Well With A Drug Free Doctor. I remember chatting to Chris and he also, when he was, you know, because he showed me all these images of, you know, food was his, his identity. He was, all the images he showed me, he was really overweight and there was always food around and he was having a great time with his food. Yeah. And, you know, he was just telling me how he walks every day and how loads he goes to the gym every time he walks, he boxes, stuff that he never used to do. So I think this is also another unrecognized benefit

• 1:30:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  of dealing with this. You actually get so much vitality back when you start to tackle this, don't you?

• 1:30:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  And a vitality you perhaps have never experienced before.

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And for me, of course, it became a passion as well that other people should have this information. Because it took me, so I'm a psychologist, I'm so embarrassed that it took me till I was like, uh, until I was about 52 to put, put it all together. Cause I'd always wondered about why, you know, why I'm a psychologist, I can't control my behaviour around food. It was kind of even more shameful, even more embarrassing. Um, but I'd always been trying to work it out. And eventually when I worked it out, I was like, oh, you know, other people need to know this because it makes such a difference, that piece of information, that could it, could it be an addictive problem? And then of course, we know

• 1:31:32Speaker 00

  that the, the treatment, the effective treatments for addiction is, is abstinence. And once you've, that, that's it. We could have done the podcast in like a minute. I could have just said that. Really have, if it's an addiction problem, abstinence is the treatment. Um, and once I'd done, once I'd had that aha moment, I was like, other people need to know this because, because that's not the general messaging around health and fitness.

• 1:32:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Well, one thing.

• 1:32:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  That I guess is in your favour is that you and David did this together.

• 1:32:11Speaker 00

  That has been amazing and it has been this sort of evolving story where, you know, we found the sort of the low carbohydrate way of eating and then applied that to to his patients, to such amazing kind of results. But for somebody with food addiction, that can be, yes, eating in a low carbohydrate way can can be very, very, very good, but you need to understand the addiction piece because otherwise people slip. And this is what happened to me. I did really well on low carb. I lost a lot of weight. But then a bit like the guy you've had on who said, you know, it's really good when you're on it. There's all this kind of, you know, keto treats, aren't there? Keto baking.

• 1:32:54Speaker 00

  You know, obviously I was going to get drawn back into that because I love baking. So I'd start baking with, you know, sweeteners and almond flour and um, and then that becomes problematic because you you're going to get drawn into that or we like nut butters and things like that. You can still have that relationship with things that seem kind of in quotes, healthy.

• 1:33:17Speaker 00

  So I had to really understand right, you know, the the those kinds of foods

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  for me are addictive. So I just need to leave them to the side of my plate, literally, and just focus on eating real whole foods as nature intended.

• 1:33:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  If someone's listening, Jen, and I know there'll be many who are thinking, listen, the problem is, I try and do this, but my partner keeps certain foods in the house.

• 1:33:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:33:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? Which means that at some point I crack and end up eating those foods. I want to know what your advice is for that person. And then let's expand it out a little because a lot of people will say.

• 1:34:01Rangan Chatterjee?

  And interested is your take on what this actually means as a psychologist. They'll go, yeah, but you know, I need to keep sweets and sugars and chocolates in the house for the kids.

• 1:34:11Speaker 00

  For the grandkids.

• 1:34:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  So two scenarios there. One is that the partner is not playing ball or they don't maybe, you know, I don't mean unintentionally, maybe they're just like, they don't recognize how serious it is.

• 1:34:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  And then children, so take them in whichever way you want.

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  So, so, so living in a household with other people who don't want to be abstinent. Yes, of course, that, that's a challenge. It's not insurmountable, but it does make it more different, difficult. Yeah. So I'm so lucky because we both eat kind of more or less the same, a little bit different, but more or less the same.

• 1:34:44Speaker 00

  And again, there are, there are many possible answers. One is, yeah, to really have that conversation. If it's a partner that loves you, hopefully they want you to be healthy and well. So you have that conversation about, you know, I'm beginning to think about my problem in this way, and I really want to try and, you know, be abstinent from, from these foods, which are my problematic foods.

• 1:35:09Speaker 00

  Sometimes partners are willing to have a go themselves, you know, they may be interested themselves in seeing how that goes. Otherwise it's a negotiation about, you know, can I have this cupboard is my food? And you keep your food over here? Or sometimes we've had people buy their husbands like lock boxes and give them the key. So they have their, if they want to be in chocolate and crisp, they have it in a locked box out of sight. So that the, the person knows they can't get into that box or that it's locked in a filing cabinet, something like that.

• 1:35:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  When you hear that, you go, it's pretty hard to not make the case this is an addiction, right? When you, when you hear things like that, a locked box.

• 1:35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. The people have asked their husbands to keep, to keep it outside or, or only to eat it outside the home. So it's an individual kind of negotiation about what's possible really in the home. You know, as I say, having a cupboard so that cupboard you open only has the things in that you want to be eating or a shelf on the fridge that's your food. It is more difficult if you're seeing it all the time.

• 1:36:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  But Jen, just to bring up alcohol for a minute, I guess.

• 1:36:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I use the same analogy.

• 1:36:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  You use the analogy and if you were, if you were recognised as an alcoholic

• 1:36:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  and you were seeking help for that.

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  You'd hope that your partner didn't.

• 1:36:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  Would not keep alcohol in the house.

• 1:36:36Speaker 00

  Sit next to you on the sofa, having a drink while you're watching.

• 1:36:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, but again, it goes back to that, that sort of theme that's been playing out throughout this conversation, that we don't really recognise it.

• 1:36:47Speaker 00

  We don't take it as seriously.

• 1:36:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  As seriously. It's like, oh, yeah, just a bit of sugar.

• 1:36:51Speaker 00

  And it's incredibly serious. So, you know, it's, it's going to kill you the same way as cigarettes and.

• 1:36:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I think that's the key point, isn't it? It's like, look, humans are hardwired to crave sugar. As we've already touched on, in our evolutionary past, if it was around, we might gorge on it and store a bit of fat to get us through four times when food wasn't around. But in the modern food environment, for most people, food is always around. So that so-called winter never actually comes, right? It's always summer. And so we know what are the problems today? Well, metabolic dysfunction is probably one of the driving factors for most chronic diseases.

• 1:37:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  Heart attacks, strokes, many types of Alzheimer's.

• 1:37:45Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:37:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  And a large amount, maybe 40% of cancers are driven by metabolic dysfunction, you know, as well as other things, right? But. The consequences of not being able to get on top of your food intake for some people can be frankly life threatening and life shortening. So this is not a trivial matter.

• 1:38:07Speaker 00

  It's not a trivial matter.

• 1:38:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  We're talking about, oh, you know, having a bit of sugar. It's like, no, no, for some people, this actually kills you.

• 1:38:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And if you've got a food addiction, you're seven times more likely to have type two diabetes, for example. So there've been studies done on, and we know that the prevalence in the general population of food addiction using those sort of symptoms is 14%. Well, that's more than six million adults in the UK.

• 1:38:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  14%.

• 1:38:32Speaker 00

  14%. So it's very similar to alcohol.

• 1:38:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  Wow.

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  Whereas a problematic thing. So.

• 1:38:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's kind of what, one in six, one in seven. So in a, yeah.

• 1:38:44Speaker 00

  And it's the same in kids and adolescents. It's terrifying. You know, those, those kids have been brought up in this food environment. You know, when we were brought up, it wasn't quite as it is today.

• 1:38:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  Even Halloween, right? When I was a kid, it wasn't that big a thing.

• 1:39:00Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:39:01Rangan Chatterjee?

  Somewhere, I think in the last 10 years, it's kind of from America, it feels like it's accelerated into being like the most ridiculous sugar fest.

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  Every celebration has become a ridiculous sugar fest, hasn't it? Valentine's, Mother's Day, Easter, Christmas.

• 1:39:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Once Christmas is done, it's like, well, let's start getting people ready for the next celebration.

• 1:39:22Speaker 00

  We've been had, really.

• 1:39:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Once you see it, it's everywhere.

• 1:39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27Rangan Chatterjee?

  You're being marketed this stuff all the time.

• 1:39:29Speaker 00

  You go into the garage, someone who works in this space had a clicker and she thought, right, I'm going to see how many times a day I'm queued to kind of eat these foods. And they're everywhere. So you go and fill up your car. You know, you have to walk a gauntlet, an absolute gauntlet of snack food just to pay, pay the bill. There's advertising hoardings, it's on the television, it's on the scrolling on the phone. So we're being queued, queued, queued.

• 1:39:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  As you say, you're surprised that anyone manages to actually resist.

• 1:40:02Speaker 00

  Has anybody managed, yeah.

• 1:40:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I think we want to empower people to say, listen, it's not your fault.

• 1:40:08Speaker 00

  It's okay to fight back.

• 1:40:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  It is difficult.

• 1:40:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  But also.

• 1:40:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  What are you gonna do? You have to do something.

• 1:40:16Speaker 00

  And there are communities of people that are doing it. You have to sort of find your tribe to some extent. It's really important that, you know, you wouldn't expect someone with an alcohol problem to kind of go it alone. They would have a support group or a counselor or somebody supporting them. And I think, you know, it's really important that people kind of find their little, little support group or they have somebody who, who's really with them on this. So if it's not going to be your part now, you know, try and find somebody else or a, or a community to sort of get. We didn't talk about kids. Do you want to go back to that?

• 1:40:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  We can do, yeah.

• 1:40:52Speaker 00

  Part two of, part two of the question, because that's really difficult as well. And everybody thinks, oh, this, you know, they're so cute. They should let them have a treat. And, you know, I was guilty of this because I didn't work this out till, you know, I was maybe 52. So obviously I raised my kids pretty heavily on the carbohydrate side because that's, that's what. And we used to have carbohydrate corner, which had the biscuits in for the kids to go and get.

• 1:41:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  So many people have sweet drawers, don't they?

• 1:41:18Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I apologize to them about it. I'm sorry about it, but fortunately they, they all eat like we do now. So.

• 1:41:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  They're in their twenties, aren't they? I think.

• 1:41:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, twenties and thirties and they're all, um, yeah, really.

• 1:41:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  I mean, David was saying to me that some of that drive was vanity as well. They realized that actually.

• 1:41:35Speaker 00

  They felt better. They look better.

• 1:41:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  And looks better and felt lean and had six packs and stuff.

• 1:41:40Speaker 00

  Good skin.

• 1:41:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  When they ate that way, when they ate in that sort of low carbohydrate way that you and David eats.

• 1:41:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  So I think for some people vanity is a motivating factor.

• 1:41:50Speaker 00

  Feedback, isn't it? You know, it's an important fact. We've got a granddaughter. She's 14 now. And whenever she eats ultra processed food or sugar, she just breaks, she just breaks out. So she just knows, she's just knows not to do it. Um, yeah. So it's difficult with the kids. But I think, you know, you're, you're the adults. You're in charge of the home environment.

• 1:42:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. One of the things.

• 1:42:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  I figured out early on in my career that was really helpful for previous patients was control the environment you can control.

• 1:42:22Speaker 00

  It's super important.

• 1:42:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  Don't use that willpower in your house because you're gonna have to use it up.

• 1:42:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:27Rangan Chatterjee?

  When you fill up petrol, when you go to the newsagents, when you go and get your coffee and you're walking past a pan of chocolate eyes that are waving at you, right? You're gonna have to use your willpower there.

• 1:42:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  Some people, there is a school of thought, they push back and they say, well, that's not dealing with the relationship with foods. They'll say that you should be able to get to a point where you can have it there and resist. And it's not that I necessarily disagree with that. I just think that you're just making life harder for yourself if you're having those foods there because one evening you are gonna be tired, stressed, lonely.

• 1:43:03Speaker 00

  Upset.

• 1:43:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  You will have had a bad day and if it's there and you're in, you know, opening the cupboard looking for something.

• 1:43:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:43:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  And there's chocolate there, you're probably gonna have it.

• 1:43:11Speaker 00

  I'm totally with you on that. We have to resist it all day long. Let's, you know.

• 1:43:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  Keep it safe at home.

• 1:43:16Speaker 00

  I don't wanna eat it, so I'm not gonna have it at home because it, you know.

• 1:43:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  And that's assuming you made the choice that you don't wanna eat it. If you wanna eat it and have it at home, like, we're not saying don't have it. We're assuming that you're trying to change your relationship.

• 1:43:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  With those foods.

• 1:43:29Speaker 00

  Don't put it in the basket. That's the point. That's the point at which the decision is made in the supermarket.

• 1:43:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  What do you do with your grandkids?

• 1:43:36Speaker 00

  They're just so used to eating the way, the way that we eat. So it's sort of non-food treats, so we do other things with them. So at Easter, we'll do other activities, play games or, you know, walk up mountains or do something else.

• 1:43:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, it's hard. We've done the same thing, right? And it is hard because you are basically resisting the prevailing tide of culture.

• 1:44:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:44:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  And it is much harder work and you need time and energy. And of course, not everyone has that. And so I do recognize that, but I guess we're sharing this to not make people feel bad, to show what might be possible.

• 1:44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  And how there is a way to fight back against the food industry here.

• 1:44:21Speaker 00

  And that we've been, we've been there. We've, you know, that was, that was my story and we've tried to do something different. And it is, it is possible to do that and it's not been easy at times, but that doesn't mean it's worth, not worth trying to.

• 1:44:39Speaker 00

  Persist and and and just do a little bit better every day.

• 1:44:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  If someone's listening, Jen, and they want to get involved with the community, maybe they don't have friends or family who is supportive, but they're really committed. Is there a way they can get in touch with you or your groups? And if so, how, I know you have the book Fork in the Road.

• 1:44:58Speaker 00

  Fork in the Road.

• 1:44:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Great resource.

• 1:44:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wrote in lockdown and it was sort of meant to be, yeah, for people that are probably listening to this conversation, it was, it was for people like me who'd had these sort of lifelong struggles. It explains all about food addiction and the symptoms and some of the science of it. And David's done the foreword. But then it's also like, you know, what to eat and how to deal with these social situations that we all get ourselves in and what other things you might want to think about in your life. But it's a very little book and all the proceeds go to the the charity, the Collaborative Health Community that I work with and that are with, you know, campaigning and doing research on food addiction.

• 1:45:40Speaker 00

  And, you know, if you've got a partner or a member of the family that doesn't get it, read the book yourself, but then hand it over to them because it's a quick read and it explains the problem to them in sort of simple terms. So, um, yeah, so that's, that's one thing to, yeah. So the Collaborative Health Community, you can look on our website. We've got information and resources for for professionals and we're just about to launch some

• 1:46:08Speaker 00

  training for healthcare professionals so that they can understand how to recognise food addiction in the clinic and what to do about it. And also we've got information for for the public and some more resources that people can can look at.

• 1:46:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  You have practised as a clinical psychologist for over 30 years, I believe. And I've heard you talk before about the role of hope in healthcare. Why, in your opinion, is it so important to have hope?

• 1:46:40Speaker 00

  So, yes, hope was my, um, my passion really before I got into all of this space about food addiction. And I did my doctorate on the role of hope in in healthcare. Um, hope is about having a sense of a possible better future. It's about believing that you can see the steps to that future. And believing that you've got the motivation to take those steps or the, yeah, you've got the, you, you're going to be able to take those small steps.

• 1:47:21Speaker 00

  And when people have that sense of hope, it has such a massive impact on how they cope with everything in, in life, really. Um, and even about, you know, things like the level of pain they experience or the amount of medication that they take, or even it's even been linked with longevity, to have that, that sense of

• 1:47:46Speaker 00

  moving towards a preferred future. And I think often in, in healthcare settings, people are so, um, they've lost hope, really.

• 1:47:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:59Speaker 00

  And they've, they've, they've, they've come, it's always like a sort of, you know, particularly a lot of people that, that come to see us, it, it's like you're the last house on the street, really, they've, you know, they've, they've tried everything and they've, they've sort of become very hopeless. So it's very important as healthcare practitioners that we're able to instill that sense that,

• 1:48:22Speaker 00

  you know, they, they can get to, they can get to a better place and they've got the, the wherewithal to do that. You were talking about sort of, you know,

• 1:48:32Speaker 00

  you know, often people that we see are very competent in many walks of their lives. They've got successful careers or, you know, they've, they've got a lovely family on, but they, they just, there's this one area that they can't crack. Like in this case, we're, we're talking about the food and they've sort of lost, lost hope there. And it's about trying to give people. The hope and the confidence that they can actually take the steps. You know, they've got that within them to take the steps to this better future. And, you know, not that it's all going to be plain sailing, but you know, that they will get there

• 1:49:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:07Speaker 00

  in the end with, you know, with some care and support. And often all you're trying to do is uncover that for people, you know, like for Chris that you spoke to, it was only a matter of showing him that there was a way.

• 1:49:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Speaker 00

  Um, that he could recover his health, which he, at that point, probably could barely believe that he would end up on no medication and going to the gym every day.

• 1:49:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  Well, I think, Jen, what you clearly do with this work and what you've been doing for many years to try and raise awareness of food addiction, sugar addiction, UPF addiction, that this is a problem that many people are struggling with, that we need to recognise and we need to give people solutions to, or certainly practical steps they can take. That is giving people hope. I'm sure there's many people who've taken hope just from hearing you today, even the fact that you've managed to, I don't know if you would, you would say you've conquered your food addiction or you've learnt how to manage it.

• 1:50:01Speaker 00

  You learnt to live with it.

• 1:50:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  You've learnt to live with it.

• 1:50:03Speaker 00

  Like migraine or something like that, you know, it's the same. It's always all type two diabetes. It's, it, it's in the background, but it's not, it's not impinging on your quality of life.

• 1:50:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  Can I just go through a few questions that some of my

• 1:50:16Speaker 00

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:50:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  listeners and people on Instagram have sent in, or maybe just take three or four of them. Something you've kind of covered, so you can give a quick overview if you want. Rennie says, Jen, I'd like some tips, please, on reducing sugar intake in children and encouraging them to make healthier choices without feeling like they are missing out. As well as that, Jen, she also says, sometimes I feel I'm the worst mum ever.

• 1:50:46Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:50:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? Because I ultimately crack and let them do these things. So.

• 1:50:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's so hard, isn't it? Real sympathies. You know, bringing up children, it's complicated, you know, the screens and the devices and the food environment. I think it's incredibly hard. So the fact that you're trying to do your best and you're thinking about it, I think that's so laudable.

• 1:51:12Speaker 00

  I think we've talked quite a lot about not having stuff in the house. And I think that is.

• 1:51:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's a great place to start.

• 1:51:18Speaker 00

  It's a really good place to start. Also, you can start with breakfast. That's another thing that we often say to families is, you know, start with a good, healthy breakfast with maybe eggs or, you know, full fat yogurt, these kinds of things that aren't.

• 1:51:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  Not sugary cereals.

• 1:51:36Speaker 00

  Not sugary cereals, a good place to start with kids. And actually, you know, they love, kids love baking eggs. You know, that can be a great place to start. Or, or another way is to help involve them with making stuff. So with, with our grandkids, if they stay over and they're going to school the next morning, I just do a quick smoothie with like forest fruits, usually some frozen fruits, because that's a bit cheaper, full fat yogurt, you know, blitz it all up and they, they slug that down before they go to school. So, but they love to make things like that, kids, don't they? So I think if you can involve them in cooking, yeah, don't have the worst things in the house.

• 1:52:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, great advice.

• 1:52:20Speaker 00

  Two tips.

• 1:52:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  The other thing that I would add is, one thing I try to do with my children is, is help them start to see the relationship between what they eat and how they feel. So if they have been at a party or whatever, and they've had pizza, whatever it might be, and they don't feel good afterwards, or I don't know, they come out on the spot the next morning or what, you know what I mean? Just some way of trying to connect that when I eat like this, this happens. When I eat like this, I've got more energy. I believe that at long term, that's a very helpful thing because ultimately at some point they're going to be out of your control. They're going to make their own choices. And if they can see the impact of their choices, it's much easier to start changing that.

• 1:53:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  Sarah says, I would be interested to know if not being breastfed increases the likelihood of sugar addiction. I don't know if you know anything about that.

• 1:53:14Speaker 00

  I, I don't know that there's any evidence about it, but this is a thing that I've, I've actually tweeted a thing to say, who out there has got a sugar addiction who was bottle fed? I really think there is, there is a, a link, but I don't know that there's any evidence. But it's something that I've really thought about. And, you know, a lot of the formulas did have sugar in. I was bottle fed, you know. It wouldn't be surprising that if that sort of, you know, set you up to some extent. Now, you know, we know that people have to bottle feed, so we don't want anybody sort of feeling guilty about that.

• 1:53:54Speaker 00

  But it may be that in those of us with that slight genetic vulnerability, maybe that is a factor. And, you know, to choose the feeds that that don't have the excess sugars in them.

• 1:54:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I know. I want to just double down on what you just said there, which is we don't want anyone to feel guilty.

• 1:54:10Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:54:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  People often have to bottle feed for a variety of different reasons and, you know, and it's like, you know, breastfeeding is really good for the gut microbiome, but if you had to bottle feed your child, there were other things you can do to help

• 1:54:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  increase the health of the gut microbiome.

• 1:54:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  And same thing here. Yeah. If you've had to do that, don't feel guilty. Just try to absorb the things that we've been talking about and figure out how you can actually change things at home perhaps to, to, to

• 1:54:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:39Rangan Chatterjee?

  you know, to account for that. Sharon says, I'm really struggling with this. I'm definitely addicted to all things sugary. I read books, I Google subjects. I'd literally last about two to three days, then I crumble. It's not just what I eat. It's the quantity too. How can I get past this when I feel I have no willpower or discipline? That's kind of our entire conversation, I guess, Jen, isn't it?

• 1:55:07Speaker 00

  Definitely, definitely. And the thing is, in the early days, to not be, don't be restricting your proteins and your fats because that's how you build a body and brain and you've got to repair the brain. You've got to be having the right nutrients. Otherwise you will be getting cravings. So I think, I don't know that that's the case, but I would say, you know, be eating plenty and regularly when you're trying to quit sugar, be eating plenty of good foods because you will get the cravings. Yeah. And two or three days, yeah, you're not through, you're not through the worst of it then. Um, probably I would say for someone like that to to join a program. If you go to our website.

• 1:55:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  Which is?

• 1:55:49Speaker 00

  The dash C H C org. Yeah. And and you know, think about signing up for a program because then you're, you know, getting expert advice, you're getting support on the way through, you're talking to other people who are going through the same thing. Um, it makes such a difference. If you if you can't do it on your own, definitely join a program.

• 1:56:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  One that we've not fully gone into today, but you've touched on it a few times, and I just want to make sure we've we've sort of covered this for completion is this idea that sometimes your desire for sugar is a consequence of what you ate or didn't eat previously, you know? So if you had a sugary cereal for breakfast, well, your blood sugar may have shot up. Three hours later, it may start to crash down and you then crave when it's crashing down.

• 1:56:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:56:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  But actually, it may be that you don't have a sugar addiction problem. It may simply be that actually that craving is a consequence of your blood sugar.

• 1:56:49Speaker 00

  You've got a blood sugar problem.

• 1:56:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. And so if you were able to have um a breakfast, as you said, with with some eggs, for example, and some avocado and some yoghurt, some, you know, a more protein rich and healthy fat rich breakfast.

• 1:57:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:57:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  You may find you don't have the craving. I know many patients over the years.

• 1:57:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  Who've been in that situation.

• 1:57:07Speaker 00

  Definitely. If you're having enough protein and you know, you're just not as hungry and as as cravy. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:57:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. And of course, for some people, these CGMs, which I briefly spoke to, you know, these continuous glucose monitors can be a very useful tool, maybe not, I don't mean long term necessarily, but you know, a two week trial.

• 1:57:28Speaker 00

  You can learn a massive amount.

• 1:57:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  You go, oh, wow. Actually, every time I'm craving sugar, it's because my. Blood glucose is dropping.

• 1:57:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  What if I changed what I ate and my blood sugar didn't have these highs and lows?

• 1:57:41Speaker 00

  Go up and down.

• 1:57:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  For some people, their cravings vanish when they eat that way.

• 1:57:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  So.

• 1:57:45Speaker 00

  You you learn a massive amount. And the other thing, it can be really good if you've kind of having a bit of a wobble and you want to reset. There's something about seeing it in real time on on your phone and you wanting to keep your lines, people like me anyway, who want to sort of, you want to keep the line flat. You just get that feedback immediately. And you see the kinds of foods that for you personally put up the blood sugar. So yeah, a lot of people with a sugar addiction problem do really well trying trying out CGM.

• 1:58:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jen, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I think you're doing, like your husband, together, you guys are doing such incredible work.

• 1:58:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Final question is for that person who throughout this conversation has recognized that actually, you know what? They've realized that they have a problematic relationship with food that they've never properly admitted to themselves. They're perhaps hidden it from the people around them. Of course, this conversation is full of advice and tips on that already. But for that person who thinks it's too late for them to change, what would you say to them?

• 1:58:57Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh, never too late. So we've we've had patients in their 60s and 70s come along and make huge leaps in their mental and physical health by, you know, by quitting the sugars and ultra processed food and replacing it with real whole nutrient dense food. And then that, as we've said, given them the sort of energy and the and the focus to do other things in their lives.

• 1:59:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Well, you've studied the role of hope in healthcare. I think you've left people with a lot of hope at the end of this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 1:59:34Speaker 00

  I hope so. Thank you very much.

• 1:59:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming,

• 2:00:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatgeet.com/friday5. Now, if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world, covering all kinds of different topics: happiness, food, stress, sleep, behaviour change and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out.

• 2:01:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks, and as audiobooks, which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family, or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health.

• 2:01:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  Making lifestyle change is always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more.