Randall Carlson: Is The Moon An ALIEN Satellite Monitoring Earth?

Is the Moon truly a natural satellite—or could it be an artificial construct placed with intent? In this mind-expanding conversation, Jesse Michaels and Randall Carlson explore the possibility that the Moon isn’t what we’ve been told. From ancient myths and sacred geometry to orbital mechanics and metaphysical theories, this dialogue peels back the veil on one of the greatest cosmic mysteries. We break down: • Precise lunar alignments and geometric impossibilities • Hollow Moon theories and resonance anomalies • The Moon’s influence on life, consciousness, and ancient timekeeping • Evidence from ancient civilizations and esoteric traditions Carlson brings decades of research to the table, fusing geology, mythology, and ancient knowledge. Jesse challenges assumptions and draws out deeper questions that linger just beyond science’s current reach. This isn’t just about the Moon—it’s about our forgotten history, our place in the cosmos, and what’s been hidden in plain sight. "2:46:00 | (Correction) 1/400th size of the sun" | Randall Carlson | YouTube ➤ @TheRandallCarlson Website ➤ https://randallcarlson.com/ JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels | Sponsors | House of Atlas: Get 30% off your first The House of Atlas Razor Kit with the code [JESSE] at https://www.houseofatlas.com/JESSE BetterHelp: This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/ALCHEMYPOD and get on your way to being your best self. Chubbies: Your new wardrobe awaits! Get 20% off @chubbies with the code [JESSE] at https://www.chubbiesshorts.com/jesse -------------------------- Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Patreon ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] #JesseMichels #RandallCarlson #ArtificialMoon #MoonMysteries #AncientTechnology #EsotericKnowledge #ForbiddenHistory #ConsciousnessExploration #HiddenCivilizations #CosmicSecrets #UFODisclosure #AlternativeScience #AstroTheology #OccultSymbolism #sponsored Chapters 00:00 Exploring the Existence of Atlantis 05:51 Ancient Civilizations and Their Knowledge 11:48 The Younger Dryas and Cataclysmic Events 18:01 The Role of the Moon in Earth's History 24:06 The Connection Between Ancient Myths and Modern Science 48:56 Understanding Meteor Streams and Their Impact 54:46 The Unique Design of Our Solar System 01:00:00 Speculations on Extraterrestrial Influence 01:06:14 The Risks of Meteor Impacts and Preventative Measures 01:12:55 The Dynamics of Global Politics and Intervention 01:18:09 Theories on Cataclysms and Civilizational Cycles 01:24:12 Exploring the Nature of Gravity and Earth's Magnetic Field 01:39:35 Freemasonry and Ancient Knowledge 01:44:58 Charity and Brotherhood in Freemasonry 01:53:40 The Holy Grail: Symbolism and Technology 02:00:27 Spiritual Traditions and Their Evolution 02:09:00 The Grail Mythos and Its Symbolism 02:15:15 The Shroud of Turin: Evidence and Controversy 02:25:16 The Atlantis Theory: Locations and Implications 02:33:43 Unearthing Giants: The Evidence of Ancient Skeletons 02:38:51 Parapsychology and the Mind: Exploring the Unknown 02:46:30 The Moon: Anomalies and Ancient Theories 02:56:01 Cosmic Events and Catastrophes: The Younger Dryas Hypothesis 03:10:11 The Role of the Sun: Solar Activity and Earth’s History 03:22:20 Celestial Ascent: Ancient Traditions and Cosmic Knowledge Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  I think that you can interpret the evidence that there is a strong case for the existence of Atlantis. And one of the things I've done is studied the marine geology and oceanography of the Atlantic Ocean Basin. And there is overwhelming evidence of major subsidence on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, particularly concentrated along the mid-Atlantic ridge. What we're seeing now, those islands, are the tops of mountains.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  We're crazy speculative territory here. What's up with the moon? It's really strange.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  The moon has sufficient mass that it should have deformed into the state of least energy, which is a sphere. Why hasn't it done that?

• 1:10Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 1:11Speaker 01

  I am willing to consider that the moon has been geo-engineered.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  And how would it have been geo-engineered?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  By a civilization with the technology advanced enough.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  Do you think Atlantis geo-engineered it?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Look, the Imperial Mammoth stood 16 feet tall at the shoulder. The Ursus Spaleus, the bear that stood 6 feet tall at the shoulder and 12 feet tall when it stood up on its hind legs. They were giants! But if you had all of these mammalian megafauna oversized compared to today, why not people?

• 2:02Jesse Michels?

  This week's American Alchemist is the always fascinating and extremely knowledgeable Randall Carlson. Randall and I have been friends since 2018. I annoy him constantly with random phone calls on everything related to esoterica, ancient civilizations, and geology. This interview spans two conversations, one in 2022 and one in 2024. In private, Randall and I have had some pretty trippy conversations about the ancient site of Atlantis, a cataclysm that might have disrupted life there, and then where those survivors went. Randall has speculated with me, given certain anomalies with the moon, that maybe some of these survivors have camped out on the moon.

• 2:44Jesse Michels?

  I think about that with respect to the UFO topic, where there's constant lore around underwater bases, and there are a lot of real anomalies with our moon. And so I decided to grill Randall Carlson on this thread. So my disclaimer here is that this conversation is going to be stepwise more speculative than any conversation you've heard Randall have. And I have no idea if there's veracity to any of this, but it's extremely fun to speculate, and it's also important. It drives science. I also think if you look at a lot of Randall's earlier work around the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis, it would have been considered extremely speculative in the 90s, but now we have an abundance of evidence that he's probably just right.

• 3:26Jesse Michels?

  So in the name of possibly pushing things forward, I decided to get crazy with him. And let's see if any of it holds up. I now present to you the gray-bearded wizard of Georgia, Graham Hancock's work husband, and my good friend, this week's American Alchemist, Randall Carlson. Randall, thank you for having me, man.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks for having me.

• 3:47Jesse Michels?

  You made a little feature on the show with Graham. I don't know if you saw that. You called in, and so it's good to actually be here in the flesh with you.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, here we are. Well, we've talked about this for a year or two or three.

• 4:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  You know, since we met, which was, it's got to be at least a couple of years now.

• 4:06Jesse Michels?

  I want to say it was three years ago, something like that.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  I think it's going to push in three years.

• 4:09Jesse Michels?

  I tried to get you to move to LA and become my mentor, but...

• 4:14Speaker 01

  I was sorely tempted.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  But um, yeah, when the push came to shove, I couldn't pull it off.

• 4:22Jesse Michels?

  You got busy. You did. I remember at the time you were like, you know what? I've been, I've been thinking I need somebody to, you know, transmit my teachings to. And I've always remembered that because I've, you know, called you randomly from time to... You probably know me as a guy to call you, you know, sporadically.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right. Sometimes my phone ring, I'll, "Oh God, it's Jesse Michaels again." "Hey Jesse."

• 4:51Speaker 01

  No, I'm always happy to get a call from you, Jesse.

• 4:54Jesse Michels?

  Thanks, man.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  So far.

• 4:55Jesse Michels?

  I love our conversations. We talk about some trippy out there stuff. Speaking of which, I've been on a weird kind of rabbit hole. And I've been thinking about the moon. And I think the moon doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  I would agree.

• 5:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  I would totally agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense.

• 5:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. What's up with the moon? It is way less dense than the earth. The material predates the earth and yet it's supposed to have come from the earth itself, from some sort of asteroid impact. So that doesn't make sense. There were reverberations when the lunar lander hit it. Both in Apollo 12 and in Apollo 13, you had ringing.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  And when meteoroids strike it, same thing. While those Apollo in place seismometers were on the moon, I think for three or four years NASA was able to gather data. And yes, it shows that the moon has a long vibrational train. After like 10 times or more that of say, the earth.

• 5:59Jesse Michels?

  You have uranium-236 and chromium and titanium on the moon. These are sort of either rare.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  High refractory metals.

• 6:10Jesse Michels?

  Very strange. And then it feels almost like, you know, this perfect ball. And it rotates, it orbits in this perfect way where you never see the dark side of the moon.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  If you ask people, and I do this just for, I'll say to people, "Does the moon rotate on its axis?" And most people go. And they can't conceptualize in any way that allows them to even answer the question. Does it? Well...

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yes, okay, it does, okay, or no. Well, let's see, because most people now, unlike our ancestors of long ago, don't pay much attention to the moon. Our ancestors, all over the ancient world, paid obsessive attention to the moon. They built huge structures and monuments dedicated to observing the motions of the moon. And they did this all over the world. Why? Why were they so interested in the moon? Why were they so intrigued with the moon? That they would create these large astronomy observatories that would allow them

• 7:20Speaker 01

  to track, for example, the eighteen point six year lunar cycle between maximum rising and setting, minimum rising and setting, which takes a full, it takes eighteen point six years to go through the full cycle. And to put it into a very, what I would think of as kind of a comprehensible motion, is you've got a minimum rising, a minimum setting, a maximum rising, a maximum setting. And it goes like this.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Does that make sense, what I'm doing? It goes maximum,

• 8:00Speaker 01

  like maximum rise, minimum set. Maximum set, minimum rise. And it oscillates like that back and forth. It takes eighteen point six years, give or take a few days, to complete that full cycle. There's a place that we'll go to at some point in Colorado called Chimney Rock. We can pull up a slide of it a little bit later if you'd like. It's a, it's two natural pillars. Huge pillars are a thousand feet above the valley floor. And they're connected by a ridge. And you can go up that ridge and where the ridge sort of flattens out before you get to these two huge pinnacles of rock.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  There's a, the remnants of an ancient structure there, an ancient kiva that would have been built by the Chacoan people. And this was one of the Chacoan outliers, part of the whole Chacoan civilization that was pretty much covered the 10,000 square miles of the San Juan Basin in New Mexico, whose hub was Chaco Canyon. And there was a whole series of outliers that were places of observation, high pinnacle points that would have been probably used as a communication system. We can pull some of this up and I can show you some of these slides, you'll kind of see how it worked.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  But at Chimney Rock, the remains of a kiva are there, and if you position yourself at the right location within that kiva, which is circular, you peer through those two pinnacle rocks, and it marks that position, where you will see, every 18.6 years, you will see the moon rising in between those two rocks. And that's coming up later this year. So I'm thinking a little trip out there, and the park, it's a national monument, I believe. The park service that governs it is going to open it up, so people can actually hike up the ridge and get in that position and see the event.

• 10:05Jesse Michels?

  Let's go.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  I think it's...

• 10:07Jesse Michels?

  Let's go.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  I think...

• 10:09Jesse Michels?

  But I won't let you go, Randall. What's up with the moon? It's really strange. You know, also, the more dense material on the moon is above the less dense material, which is the opposite of the earth, and it's similar to like a digging or excavation site.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Well, here's...

• 10:28Jesse Michels?

  And so, like, actually, the thing that got me on to this is there's a remote viewer named Ingo Swan.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I've heard of him.

• 10:34Jesse Michels?

  And he wrote a book called Penetration, and he was part of the CIA psychic spy program called Stargate. And the latter half of the book, Penetration, is dedicated to his thoughts on the moon.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:47Jesse Michels?

  And he thought that the moon was a hollow spaceship. And there are other legends that involve the moon being a hollow, artificial satellite or spaceship around the earth. And there's actually a Zulu legend that the moon brought us out of the Younger Dryas.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Oh yeah?

• 11:04Jesse Michels?

  And that it made the climate stable on earth. So what's a...

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Well, the moon absolutely does help to stabilize the climate.

• 11:11Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  That's a well-known fact. In fact, they have a whole book up there on that.

• 11:16Jesse Michels?

  And you've seen evidence of various gaseous activity on the moon? That's sort of unexplainable?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. The lunar transient phenomena has welded hundreds of examples of the moon outgassing carbon dioxide, outgassing water vapor, things like that. So anomalous lights, things. It really looks like there's some kind of activity on the moon right now. I don't know the explanation for it. I don't know why carbon dioxide is being outgassed from the moon. But carbon dioxide seems to suggest, well, carbon dioxide you associate with plants, with vegetation, water vapor.

• 11:56Jesse Michels?

  Well, you know, the moon...

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Coming out of the moon.

• 11:58Jesse Michels?

  The moon's super weird. So Apollo 10, right? It took off from the moon and it rang like a bell. And NASA became very confused. Then in Apollo 11, they put seismometers in the moon to measure this effect. They intentionally crashed the booster, the first stage of the lunar module in Apollo 11, back onto the moon, and it rings like a bell for three hours.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Three hours.

• 12:21Jesse Michels?

  So they're like, what the hell's going on here? And it turns out that if you excavate, you know, if you dig on the moon, lower sediment layers on the moon actually are newer than higher sediment layers. So it's the exact inverse. And it actually pattern matches to an excavation site. So you think that there might be a little campout from this past civilization?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  I don't know. But in the spirit of the outrageous hypothesis, let's consider it.

• 12:49Jesse Michels?

  Okay, I like that. And so, why haven't we gone back? You know, 1969 to 1972, we went on all these cool missions. You had the NASA Saturn program, the Apollo programs. And we don't seem to be able to go back. You even have NASA admins saying, "We lost the technology." Like, that's not even like a controversial conspiratorial thing to say. The more conspiratorial thing would be that it was a hoax or whatever.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  You know, the more prosaic explanation is that Nixon decided to pull the plug on the Apollo program because the Vietnam War was costing us so much money and we were going into debt that he didn't feel like we had enough, you know, money to continue the program. So they decommissioned the whole Saturn rocket fleet, which was really dumb and stupid, but that's what they did. And so, you know, you could make the argument, "Well, the Vietnam War won out over the Apollo program." There was probably more to it than that, but I don't know what that would be unless something was found that, you know.

• 13:55Jesse Michels?

  What might have been found?

• 13:57Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 13:58Jesse Michels?

  And there are civilizations pre-Moon that talk about, they talk about, you know, the moon not existing. And then there's, you know, Sumerians talk about the pre-Moon civilizations. And so, what's up?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  That, I don't think that means what people think it means, because here's why. I think that it means something very interesting. But obviously, if you had the moon arriving into Earth orbit during the time that humans would be here, the arrival of the moon into Earth's orbit would be an extraordinary event and it would be profoundly catastrophic.

• 14:34Jesse Michels?

  So how do you think the moon formed?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that's part of the mystery.

• 14:39Jesse Michels?

  Come on, Randall.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Well, see, I don't necessarily have all the answers on that.

• 14:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we got something.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  As far as the moon, the structure of the moon. You're right that the moon is much less, is slightly more than half as dense as the earth. So, the, the interesting thing about the moon is if you get enough mass together, the gravitational attraction will overcome the resistance to deformation of the material. What that means is that if you have a small object, like, like say for example, an astronomical object like Phobos or Demos, the moons of Mars. They're not spherical. There's not enough mass there to overcome

• 15:29Speaker 01

  the, the, the rigidity of the material.

• 15:33Jesse Michels?

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• 16:16Jesse Michels?

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• 16:54Jesse Michels?

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• 17:20Speaker 01

  There's not enough mass there that the gravity attraction, the internal gravity can overcome the resistance of the material and cause it to deform.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Somewhere between, say, the moons of Mars and the moons of the Earth, you will get enough mass where it does overtake. The gravity will overwhelm the rigidity of the material. It will deform into the shape which requires the least energy to maintain, which is a sphere. The mass of the moon is sufficient to do that, yet it hasn't done that. How do we know that? Well, there's a number of ways we know that. The most prominent way we know that is the fact that there is two moments of inertia in the moon.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Let's see, grab like one of those wooden compasses off the top right there. I think, yeah, one of those, let's see, will that work? Is there another, let's see, there should be, is there anything else up there, tubular?

• 18:26Jesse Michels?

  The pen.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  That'll work, that'll work. Okay, so now I'm going to hold this pen as if it's locked into a single moment of inertia that coincides with its center of mass. Okay, now what I want you to do is try to grab each end of the pen and try to rotate it. No, rotate it in a horizontal plane. See, I, you're going to easily overcome my resistance. I'm going to, I'm going to resist and you, see, I can't. Okay, now rotate it in the same plane.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  One moment of inertia, two moments of inertia. Okay, when I, what you are, okay, so here's, here is a spherically, radially symmetrical object. Let's imagine it is a sphere, and this is an axis, and you are Earth's gravity field. So, again, rotate it. Very little resistance, right? But now you're Earth's gravity field, and there's two moments of inertia. So, what's happened there is the moon is locked into Earth's gravity field in a one-to-one

• 19:41Speaker 01

  coupling between the spin of the moon on its axis and its revolution about the earth. One-to-one spin-orbit coupling. The moon has sufficient mass and low density that it should have deformed into the state of least energy, which is a sphere.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Why hasn't it done that, Randall?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Why hasn't it done that?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Because there's obviously two moments of inertia.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  So why, and how do you explain the two moments of inertia if it's a natural object?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Well, we have to come up with a, I mean, I'm not saying it's not a natural object. What I'm saying, though, is that the laws of physics as we know it don't seem to be applying here, and if there's a natural explanation, I don't know what it is.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Do you have any unnatural theories?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Not really. I'm not ready to go into some of the, you know, that the moon is an artificial object.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  I am willing to consider that the moon has been geo-engineered.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Okay. And how would it have been geo-engineered?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Well, by a civilization with the technology advanced enough that they would be able to...

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Do you think Atlantis geo-engineered it?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Well, now you're gonna...

• 21:04Speaker 01

  It's very speculative, but now we get into the question of could there have been a civilization in the remote past that had technologies that we currently don't know about? And I think the answer is yes, that is a plausible hypothesis that is not warranted by just summarily dismissing.

• 21:25Jesse Michels?

  How would they have geoengineered the moon?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Well, if you look at the schemes for building lunar bases, have you ever looked at any NASA's ideas for building lunar bases?

• 21:39Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  I should pull up something here. If I've got it handy, I will pull it up. Basically, the main problem with building a colony on the moon, or a, any kind of a facility on the moon, is cosmic radiation.

• 21:59Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  So how do you solve the problem of cosmic radiation that, to which you are going to be subject on the surface of the moon?

• 22:07Jesse Michels?

  You need some protective shielding, maybe a magnetic protective shield.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  You could, which means you're thinking immediately something like, one of the schemes is, and if I can find it here, I'll pull it up, one of the schemes is a dome-like structure.

• 22:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, something like that.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yes, you could do that. Or, what would be another possibility?

• 22:26Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Go underground.

• 22:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, under, so there you go. So it could be this hollow structure. Interesting.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Hollow is an oversimplification.

• 22:40Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So there may be hollow parts of it.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Now I think you're getting on to the...

• 22:47Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's some people who are high up at NASA who have said there are hollow parts of the moon, and that's the only explanation for it.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, this has actually been known since the Apollo days. Has been speculated. It was Gordon McDonald, I think was his name.

• 23:02Jesse Michels?

  That's right, Gordon McDonald.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  He was the one who first said that it's more like a hollow sphere.

• 23:09Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And there's a famous space advisor, I think he was NASA affiliated to Eisenhower, named Gordon McDonald, who said the only way that the-

• 23:17Speaker 01

  I've read his work.

• 23:18Jesse Michels?

  The only way that the moon makes any sense is if it's hollow.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  But that's an oversimplified model. Like a simple, like if you picture a basketball that has an outer shell-

• 23:30Jesse Michels?

  It has-

• 23:31Speaker 01

  But completely empty and-

• 23:32Jesse Michels?

  It has maybe compartments or something. Do you think there are Atlantean survivors within the moon?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  He says with a grin.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  A sly grin.

• 23:45Jesse Michels?

  You already said yes on my show, and 800,000 people watched that.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Did I say that?

• 23:50Jesse Michels?

  You said-

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Well-

• 23:52Jesse Michels?

  You go, "There's a loaded question, Jesse," and then you go, "Well, yes." Do you believe that there are survivors of ancient Atlantis that are among us, perhaps with underwater bases or bases on the moon and advanced technology?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Ah, haha, now there's the loaded question, Jesse. I will just say very provisional, yes.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Well, let's put it this way. If there were ancient cultures, whether it was Atlantis or not, that's a whole, like a separate question. I think that questioning the existence of Atlantis is definitely valid. If we go through and we take line by line our primary source for information on Atlantis, which is Plato's two dialogues, and we actually break it down line by line, we look at the multiple translations, we look at, even going back to the original Greek, to determine some of the possible alternative translations of some of the words.

• 24:58Jesse Michels?

  So I think we can do that, but that's a conversation you've had with other people, and I feel like you have sort of- Evidence that is, you know, in the form of these sort of archaeological ruins that will always be hotly contested. And it's sort of hard to prove that that was Atlantis because the actual survivors have been washed away. And then you have all these crazy UFO reports. And if there are any survivors that are on the moon or in underwater bases or anything like that, I almost feel like, especially given the current zeitgeist, that might be a more productive intro into the Atlantis conversation.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  You know, I like to think outrageously sometimes in the spirit of outrageous hypotheses.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  You know, William R. Davis, who was the founding father of the science of geomorphology, excoriated, back in the 20s, I believe it was, excoriated his colleagues for being overly conservative in their thinking and not willing to consider new ideas. And he wrote a very famous paper called, which you might want to read. I bet you you could find it as a PDF form on Google. It's called "The Value of Outrageous Hypotheses."

• 26:13Jesse Michels?

  Love that.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, in the spirit of outrageous hypotheses, why don't we conjecture that given the at least 150 to 200,000 years that we modern humans have been on this earth, that consistent with a lot of the myths,

• 26:35Speaker 01

  flight was not discovered back in the, you know, by the Wright brothers, but was rediscovered by... You know, here's the perspective that I kind of consider. If we look at, you know, the dominance of just feudalism, of subsistence farming, you know, that was up until the 17, 1800s. And the Scientific Enlightenment, followed by the Industrial Revolution, that was pretty much 99% of the Earth's population.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  When my grandparents were born in the 1890s, the primary mode of transportation, aside from rail, was foot, horse, mule.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  You know, ships, of course, but obviously, nobody had, ah, well, the first automobiles, I guess, were just showing up in the mid 1890s. But then, when I was born, with no computers, we had no presence in space. If you look at how far and fast we've come scientifically in the last 200 years, and then if you were to think that, well, what if a cataclysm wiped out our modern civilization? And we had archaeologists coming and digging up, looking for, you know, prehistory 10,000 years prior, well, would they find any evidence that we were even here?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  And the answer is, well, it depends on the severity and the intensity and magnitude of these events. Now, if we start talking about the Younger Dryas, I think we can safely state that the Younger Dryas was a global catastrophe, and it involved multiple factors, all of which would have done their part very effectively to erase any kind of civilization that might have existed, at least anything that might have looked like ours. If, let's put it this way, if the Younger Dryas events were to be repeated now, well, 10,000 years from now, archaeologists would have a hard time finding any evidence that we were ever even here.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  So what I'm getting at is that I think that you can interpret the evidence that there is a strong case for the existence of Atlantis. Now, if we look at what happened with Ancient Apocalypse, Graham Hancock's show, it got attacked on multiple fronts. It's all the establishment coming out, and of course, if you dissect their attacks on the show, there's no substance to it. It's just name-calling, it's every logical fallacy in the book, right?

• 29:22Speaker 01

  But if you go back to the original accounts, there's nothing there that's really so implausible that it couldn't have existed in some form or another.

• 29:32Jesse Michels?

  Well, the objections people have are it was told that sort of a mythos festival, right, in the Timaeus and Cretaeus account. And so, you know, there was a question of like how true the actual telling was. And then the other sort of argument is they were supposed to have fought a war, I think against Athens, and Athens wasn't around, you know, sort of 9,000 years prior.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Well, see, you've got a whole bunch of assumptions.

• 29:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  If you go back, if you go back to, you know, the late Ice Age times, you know, you go back to the times that Plato is talking about. And his date is very interesting. You know, 9,000 years before Solon's exile to Egypt, right? Which occurred in 600 B.C.

• 30:16Jesse Michels?

  So the 9,600 B.C., which is the end of the Younger Dryas.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Right, precisely, the end of the Younger Dryas in Meltwater Pulse 1B.

• 30:25Jesse Michels?

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• 31:50Jesse Michels?

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• 32:06Speaker 01

  Now, to me, that is quite an amazing coincidence that you have a very rapid pulse of sea level rise. At the same time Plato is saying that there were islands in the Atlantic that sank due to seismic events. And one of the things I've done is gone in and studied the marine geology and oceanography of the Atlantic Ocean Basin. And it's right there. There is overwhelming evidence of major subsidence on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, particularly concentrated along the mid-Atlantic ridge.

• 32:40Jesse Michels?

  You don't happen to have any slides around this, do you, Randall?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Well, I do.

• 32:45Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  I actually do, yeah.

• 32:47Jesse Michels?

  Should we get into it?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  I'd love to, you know.

• 32:51Jesse Michels?

  While you're pulling that up, Randall, do you think that there's any sort of sacred geometry about the human body that allows it to?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:59Jesse Michels?

  Tap in? What is that?

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Well, it's primarily the golden section, also known as the divine proportion, where, also known as the extreme and mean ratio, which is basically, well, this right here actually is a compass that demonstrates that ratio, where the ratio of the small segment to the large segment is exactly the same as the ratio of the large segment to the whole.

• 33:29Jesse Michels?

  You know what else displays that? The moon.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  How so?

• 33:34Jesse Michels?

  I believe that the moon is 1/400 the size of the sun or something? Or what, you tell me, what is it? It's the distance between the-

• 33:48Speaker 01

  You have a proportional relationship between diameters and distance.

• 33:52Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  The sun is 400 times larger than the moon and 400 times farther away.

• 33:57Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so what's up with that?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  There we go!

• 34:01Jesse Michels?

  That's weird.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  What is up with that?

• 34:03Jesse Michels?

  I don't know.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  I've been thinking about that for decades.

• 34:06Jesse Michels?

  That's why you're here to tell me, Randall.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Like, what is up with that?

• 34:09Jesse Michels?

  That's weird.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  How is it that, well, see, what's up with, see, here we get into the fact that that's just one interesting item in a whole array of weird coincidences about this reality that we inhabit. When we look at the whole solar system, the whole solar system looks curiously like a work of architecture. Like, when you begin looking at the ratios of planetary sizes, masses, distances, there's some really interesting things going on, which if you change the parameters even a little bit, for example, the masses and distance spacing of the four larger outer planets

• 34:53Speaker 01

  are precisely what they need to be to transfer comets from the inner zone of the Kuiper disk into the inner solar system. If you were to change the spacing or the masses, this whole phenomena of capturing comets out of the Kuiper disk, transferring them into the inner solar system would cease.

• 35:20Jesse Michels?

  Why would it, you know, comet air bursts from the Taurid meteor stream correlate with solar storms?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  It would not on the Earth. But if you have a major influx of a cometary mass into the inner solar system. And so here, going back to the torrid meteor stream. Here is right now, the idea that's coming from the new catastrophists that actually go back to 1980 in the British Isles. Victor Clube, William Napier, William Asher, several others. Also some Australian astronomers that theorized that around 25 to 30,000 years ago, a gigantic comet, maybe 50 to 60 mile diameter nucleus, or even bigger,

• 36:04Speaker 01

  came, it was captured into a sub-Jovian orbit, meaning that it's traveling around in the inner solar system between the Sun and Jupiter. That this huge comet began to undergo a system of hierarchical system of breakups, forming ever smaller cometary nuclei pieces that then went under, again, another process of breaking up, which ultimately led to the torrid meteor stream. Now, in the early days of a cometary destruction like that. This was the comet Anki? Comet Anki, now that's good, that's good. Not, Comet Anki wouldn't have been the progenitor comet.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  It would have been one of the secondary or tertiary comets from the breakup of the original. Got it. Does that make sense? Yes. So, in early times, going back 10, 12, 15,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, this debris has not cleared out. It's, it's very dense within the stream of the torrid meteor stream. The Earth crosses that stream twice each year. Crosses, so picture this, Jupiter, the Sun. The stream comes around the Sun, it makes its perihelion passage around the Sun, goes out, goes, it loops back in just inside Jupiter, like this.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  And so it's streaming around like this, and it lays close to the plane of the ecliptic, and Earth passes through that stream twice each year in its orbit.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  When that stuff is coming from its perihelion passage behind the sun, that's the summertime torrids which occur in late June and early July. Now the earth is moving and then it comes to the fall time torrids that are coming in towards the sun, but coming from apparently space. Now, all meteor streams are named after the constellation that you would look at to see which direction you're emanating from. The torrids, obviously, are named after the constellation Taurus. And specifically, they're almost tar- the radiant point is almost targeted right on

• 38:22Speaker 01

  the Pleiades, which is the shoulder of the bull in the classical depictions. So, in the fall time, oh shit, I forgot to mention that today. We are, right now, today, tomorrow, and the next day, in the peak of the torrid meteor stream.

• 38:40Jesse Michels?

  That's kinda scary.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Well, at this point, the, most of this stuff has been, it's very diffuse, it's not, however...

• 38:49Jesse Michels?

  But you were answering the question as to why the sun would be involved.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Here's what I'm getting at, okay. What we now have is evidence that the infall of meteorites into the sun can trigger solar outbursts.

• 39:04Jesse Michels?

  So coronal mass ejections because it's intaking mass? Well, that's amazing, okay, so interesting, so that's sort of this hybrid. It's almost like this torrid meteor stream sets off a chain of other calamities because you're talking about seismic activity, volcanic activity, sun activity.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that's the, that's the way you have to look at it. We're looking at a coherent system. What I think is we're, we're getting to the point where we can now understand kind of almost a unified process where... The motion of the planets, the sun, the ingress of cosmic material coming from the Kuiper disk, or the Oort cloud

• 39:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  can have profound effects on the planets and the sun.

• 39:45Jesse Michels?

  So, all of your ideas around cyclical cataclysms, when it comes to the torrid meteor stream, wouldn't be made possible without that sort of architecture to the solar system.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  And see, so what happens is, it's the conjunctions of the large outer planets that can perturb the comets in the inner zone of the Kuiper disk, which are in very quasi-stable orbits, which means that if you have, imagine that you've got a flat surface and you put a sphere on it. Well, if you have an impulse in any direction, it can move, right? Now suppose you have a dimple in a flat plane and you put your sphere in there. Well, now it's going to take a whole lot more force to move that, because you've got to overcome the fact that it's sitting in this depression, a basin, see. Suppose, on the other hand, it's sitting on top of a hill, right? And it's sitting there, as long as nothing disturbs

• 40:42Speaker 01

  it, it sits there precariously perched. But a little bit of force pushed on it, it begins rolling down, right? Quasi-stable. So, comets in the inner portion of the Kuiper disk are quasi-stable. So what that means is that the consequence of that is the conjunctions of the large outer planets. When they conjunct, like, let's say, you have Uranus and then you have Neptune, okay? So, when they're on opposite sides of the orbit, whatever influence they have just is minimal, or it cancels each other out. Okay, but now Uranus is on

• 41:22Speaker 01

  a faster orbit than Neptune, so it's coming along like this, and as it's catching up, the gravity fields of the two objects will combine, right? Now, let's say you've got comets, picture this big disk, it's rotating slowly about the sun, it's way out there, you know, outside the orbit of Neptune. It's rotating, right?

• 41:44Speaker 01

  They're not just sitting there, the whole disk is rotating. So now you have Uranus and Neptune. They combine their gravity fields. So the gravity is pulling. And you've got a comet out here. So that combined gravity pulling on that. What's it gonna do? It's gonna be like putting on the brakes. Okay? Now, on the other hand, let's say that a comet is behind it. As you're getting this conjunction. So now, these combined masses of Uranus and Neptune are in front of the comet. They're all moving in the same direction. Now, the gravity field is pulling, it's gonna accelerate. Okay, so now, how does the comet then respond to a deceleration or an acceleration? An acceleration will move it to a higher orbital level.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  It'll speed up and it'll move out. It'll move away from the sun. If it's decelerated, it will move in. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. As it slows down, it sort of falls in. Yeah. Closer to the sun. Yeah. When it does that, it now comes within the zone of the planets.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Saturn, Uranus. So now you've got comets within the orbit of Neptune. Think Saturn, Uranus. Same thing. If they break, if they slow down the orbits, it'll transfer in. It'll come inside the orbit of Saturn. Now, the big daddy, granddaddy of planetary masses is Jupiter. It'll then, it'll be Jupiter, in most cases, the determinant. Picture Jupiter with the thunderstone. So Jupiter's sort of the... Jupiter will grab that comet and either throw it back out towards the outer, outside the planetary orbits. Or he'll throw it down towards the sun.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Now, that comet gets caught in that game of cosmic ping pong. Where it's back and forth between the Jovian orbit and the sun. So it's doing this. And now, what happens is with that transfer of the comet. Into the zone of the planet.

• 43:49Jesse Michels?

  What determines whether Jupiter throws it towards the sun?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Same principle, same principle. Here's Jupiter, it's going around the sun.

• 43:55Jesse Michels?

  So if it's accelerating, then it...

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Right, here comes the comet, it's rotating this way and here comes Jupiter. So as it's coming up like this, gravity is pulling on it, slowing it down, and it falls in towards the sun. That's what does it. So it's the huge mass of Jupiter's gravity.

• 44:14Jesse Michels?

  Aren't we about to hit a particularly heavy time for the torrid meteor stream?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Well, twice each year, the Earth crosses the torrid meteor stream.

• 44:22Jesse Michels?

  That's what, September?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  The end of October, the fall, torrid is sometimes referred to as Halloween meteors. And I gave a whole, I've got a whole presentation I did last Halloween, or day or two before Halloween, where I talked about the connection between the ancient origins of our Halloween celebration and the torrid meteor shower.

• 44:48Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. What are the, how do those connect at all?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Well, because for one, because for one of the things, see, like the Earth crosses the torrid meteor stream twice each year. And actually, after the break, I'll pull up a graphic, and I'll show you the graphic.

• 45:05Jesse Michels?

  And what two months, so it's September?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  No, late October, early November.

• 45:10Jesse Michels?

  Early November.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Takes about a week for Earth to cross...

• 45:14Jesse Michels?

  It's the southern and the northern torrids are the distinct...

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Then in late June, early July, you can picture, let's push your cup over here, or the coaster, we can use the coaster, there we go, that'll be the sun.

• 45:30Jesse Michels?

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• 46:47Speaker 01

  Okay, and this is the Earth. Now, the Earth is going around the Sun, right?

• 46:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so here's what happens.

• 46:56Jesse Michels?

  We get that.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Here, picture that the torrids are coming in, Jupiter's out there, somewhere up there where the screen is. The torrid meteor stream is coming in like this. It makes a parahelion passage around the Sun, which is its closest passage to the Sun. Then it's coming out. Now, bear in mind that as these meteors are coming in, as they're getting closer, drawn into the Sun's massive gravity field, they're accelerating, right? So they come flying in, going faster and faster, they make that round, make the parahelion passage, then they come out, and immediately now, they're moving against the Sun's gravity, so the Sun is now slowing them down.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  So now picture it slowing down and slowing down, and then eventually it gets far enough out that Jupiter's gravity field is, has a stronger attraction on it than the Sun's. Jupiter will begin accelerating it, and then it'll come out, it'll round Jupiter, or sometimes it won't go out as far as Jupiter, it'll, it'll, it'll fall back. But in any case, you can picture it's making this orbit like this. The torrid meteor stream is...

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Lays very close to the plane of the ecliptic, which is Earth's orbital plane. Now, if most comets that come in from the Kuiper disk are going to be ecliptic plane comets. Because the Kuiper disk, picture, it's like a disk and it's in that same roughly fifteen, sixteen degree band that the planet, that the zodiacal belt is and which the planets move. Right? Now, the Oort cloud, which is outside of there, is a sphere. If a comet comes in from your cloud, it can come in at any angle. Right? And usually what that means is that it comes in and if the geometry of its orbit will be

• 48:53Speaker 01

  described by a parabola, which is an open-ended conic section, whereas a Jovian orbit is a closed ellipse. So if you can observe a comet and make enough observations over enough, a long enough period of time, you can determine whether its orbital geometry is elliptical or parabolic. If it's parabolic, it's open. So what that means, it's coming in, circling the sun, going out, never to return. If it's elliptical, you know it's going to be periodic. Torrid meteor stream is-

• 49:24Jesse Michels?

  So that accounts for June, the June torrids are elliptical?

• 49:29Speaker 01

  The whole stream is elliptical.

• 49:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  The whole stream, just picture a stream of material and it's elliptical. The stream itself is elliptical. Okay, so now, Earth's orbit intersects that in two places. It intersects the torrid stream in late June, early July, and then again in late October, early November. Now, here's the thing you have to grasp. The summertime torrids, when the Earth is crossing the stream, that stream is coming from around, it's just made its perihelion passage around the sun. So if you were to look in the sky towards the radiant point from which those meteors are emanating, you're looking right up towards the sun. So what is that going to do to your, the, your visibility of the meteors?

• 50:16Speaker 01

  They're going to be hard to detect, hard to see. On the other hand, when you go to late October, the stream is coming in from this way, so when you're looking upstream, you're not, you're looking away from the sun.

• 50:28Jesse Michels?

  You'll see light showers and-

• 50:29Speaker 01

  So now you'll see the meteors, right? And you'll be able to see the radiant point. And the radiant point is that point in space- From which the meteors appear to be emerging, right?

• 50:42Jesse Michels?

  And you have, you know, one example would be comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, which was, you know, a half mile wide in diameter. And that caused, basically, the one that impacted Jupiter, it was 600 times all of the nuclear TNT.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  The interesting thing about Shoemaker-Levy 9 was that it had been, it was a single comet nucleus. It passed very close to Jupiter, within the zone called the Roche limit. Okay, the Roche limit is the limit whereby the gravity field of a primary mass can overcome a sec, and cause the disaggregation of a secondary mass. Now Jupiter has this massive powerful gravity field. A comet nucleus is a very friable, it's a, it's not a strongly bound object, like an iron asteroid, right?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  It can break apart. Shoemaker-Levy 9 passed within the Roche limit of Jupiter. The really powerful gravity field of Jupiter ripped it apart. And what had been one nucleus broke into 21 separate objects. Those 21 separate objects then began to spread out in a so-called string of pearls. And that made one orbit around the sun and came back out and crossed, intersected the orbit of Jupiter at precisely the time Jupiter was there. Right? Most likely what had been happening is, you know, it had been orbiting Jupiter dozens, if not hundreds of times.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  And every time getting a little closer. Every time it went out there, it was drawn in a little tighter. We discovered it right at that point where it was making its final passage. Right, it may have made dozens of passages before that. We discovered it right at the beginning of its final passage. When it was, had just been ripped apart. And was now 21 pieces. So in, I think the second week of July 1994. Those 21 pieces.

• 53:00Jesse Michels?

  Impacted Jupiter.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Impacted Jupiter, yes. And any one of them.

• 53:03Jesse Michels?

  And that was 600 times the entire nuclear arsenal on Earth in terms of its destructive force. And what's kind of worrying is I looked at the NASA DART mission. And, you know, that was a spacecraft. I think was knocking into Dimorphos, which was a.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dimorphos, which is actually two objects, that's why it's. Two, di means two.

• 53:25Jesse Michels?

  Right. And, but the spacecraft was, you know, was, was, was pretty small. And Dimorphos is pretty small. Dimorphos is what, like 250 meters or something?

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was small.

• 53:35Jesse Michels?

  So it's, you know, you're talking about a half mile wide versus 250 meters. I still worry about, you know.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  And rightfully so.

• 53:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Rightfully so. Now, the thing is, the larger object, really, the more lead time you need. And if we find an object, see, and just like with Jupiter, with Shoemaker Levy 9, you know, it took three months of observations. Because you basically need two things. You need the velocity and you need the geometry of the orbit. And when you have those two of what are called the orbital elements. You can now make accurate predictions about when and where something is going to be in its orbit.

• 54:10Jesse Michels?

  So when you describe the solar system as it's set up to almost funnel in. Material from outside of the Kuiper Belt. You're almost talking about, or touching on this, you know, sort of anthropic principle, this idea that. Or a fine tuning principle, like if Plank's constant were slightly different, you know, gravity would be different. The whole climate of the Earth would be different.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:34Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that the solar system was intelligently designed?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Well, see, here we get into some really deep questions. That I, you know, I say intelligently designed, I'm almost, you know, my, my philosophy of. Life, spirituality and say, is that the entire universe seems to have intelligence. But what does that even mean? I don't know, it's, it's, it's almost beyond my comprehension, you know. But let's put it this way. I'd say I was totally an atheist. And I knew about, and I studied. These extremely narrow range of parameters. Within which it seems higher life is even possible. Right? If I was an atheist, I would have to conclude this.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  That our solar system is extremely unique in that it has exactly these extremely narrowly defined parameters that has allowed life to emerge, first of all, even to emerge on Earth, second, to get from single cell microbial life up to us. For example, we talked about the moon earlier. If you take the moon away, there's no inner tidal zone. So, fine, let's say.

• 55:46Jesse Michels?

  Not to mention, the Earth would be not rotating in a stable way around its axis. It would be wobbly.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  The moon, actually, think of the moon as like a great stabilizing force.

• 55:56Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  That helps keep the Earth locked into its 23.5 degree tilt.

• 56:02Jesse Michels?

  Another reason it might be geomagnetically engineered.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, see, I'm so mind boggled at the whole situation that I try to wrap my head around. And it seems like no matter what explanation I come up with, it's just beyond our ability to even fathom.

• 56:23Jesse Michels?

  Well, do you think that NASA might have figured something out? Because, I mean, obviously, there are all these sort of conspiracies around Neil Armstrong comes back, he gives a speech three weeks afterwards, and he's giving the speech and he looks kind of, he goes, "This is a big step for mankind." And he looks very kind of scared and sheepish and like he's been, you know, dragged out there and possibly traumatized, you know, around what he saw. And so, yeah, is there something that we're missing in terms of the story with the moon?

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's a lot we're missing.

• 56:53Jesse Michels?

  Was this created sort of as a noble mythology around the space race with the Soviets, where we wanted to encourage, maybe rightly so, you know, technological innovation and exploration and the knowledge of a final frontier? But maybe, you know, we sacrificed ontological truth in the process.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Perhaps, or we're getting closer to it. I mean, I, I, you know, what I try to do is I say, you know, there are cosmological and epistemological questions that I don't know if I could answer. So I, I kind of like bring it in a little, little closer. And I, I think like in terms of this, if, if we look at the very narrow range of parameters that we see in our particular solar system. I was about to say about the moon creating this intertidal zone. You know, and if you, if you're, let's say you're geoengineering a planet and you're introducing life into the marine realm, you, you have to have an ocean, first of all. You introduce life into there, but in order to get the higher life, you have to bring it out

• 57:59Speaker 01

  onto the land. If that's a requirement, to get higher sentient beings with, with, you know, 1100 cubic centimeter cranial capacities, able to think and reason and, and all of the things that go along with our intelligence. You have to go through a certain sequence of, of, of transitional phases. Well, to get from the, the ocean onto land would be impossible essentially without an intermediary zone where you could, where species could make that transition from an exclusively marine existence to an exclusively terrestrial existence. That's provided by the intertidal zone.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  You know, even earlier, early speculations about the origins of life always went to these, you know, the tide pools that form in the intertidal zone as being the, the, the optimum nurturing place for multicelled life.

• 58:57Jesse Michels?

  You get all sorts of chemical reactions for primordial soup.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  But you take the moon away, you got no intertidal zone. And now it's a whole lot trickier to get life from the ocean onto the land.

• 59:10Jesse Michels?

  Do you think in some ways, you know, maybe we're part of a cosmic war? And that, you know, if you had to describe the two factions, sort of very roughly speaking, there's maybe one celestial faction that minds humanity for consciousness, or sort of wants to keep us sort of in the fetal position, or repressed, or dumbed down? And maybe Allah Roswell, a lot of our internet technology was sort of dropped by these people to distract us constantly, or not people, but beings? And then there's some other, you know, there's some other entities that are maybe, you know, want us to ascend to their level, and want us to... So you, the dichotomy would be described by like, you know, Antichrist and Armageddon.

• 59:55Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, on the one hand, you know, the apocalypse, the great unveiling, you can, you see more. And then on the other hand, you know, we're sort of chained to our little cubicles, and we're maybe being mined for something, you know, not, not, not, you know, unwittingly, if that makes sense.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  That's an interesting scenario, and I'm not sure if I necessarily go along with it. You know, I don't rule out the possibility of interstellar contact. I tend to be skeptical about the UFO phenomena being interstellar.

• 1:00:34Jesse Michels?

  You think it's sort of non-Copernican? You think it's Earth-based? That's what like, if you talk to Jacques Vallée, he would say that they've been with us for thousands of years, and they're sort of controlling, like, the Earth in many ways is like, you know, they're upping and lowering the thermostat, and they have a control system, and religion has a proto-architecture that maybe these beings have created.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Well, see, that's where, my thinking, where I tend to, is not so much these beings as being the other, but basically just being a separate branch of humanity.

• 1:01:05Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. So, interesting. Okay, so let's get into that. So, are these the Atlanteans?

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Well, there are traditions, going back to the Chaldeans, to the Sumerians. I mean, I think Rob brought, do we have it right here, the Chaldean account of...

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  I don't know if I could find the passage immediately, but, but there are references to when, for example, the great catastrophe overwhelmed the earth, the gods.

• 1:01:38Jesse Michels?

  Is your point that maybe at every civilizational cycle, when there's cataclysm, some subset saves themselves?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:49Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Yes. In fact, I think there's a tradition that's been handed down. Now, this is speculative, but I think that one could make a pretty strong circumstantial case.

• 1:02:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  That there has existed since prehistoric times, a tradition about these great cycles, and how the planet is subject to periodic catastrophes. Let me, let me.

• 1:02:15Jesse Michels?

  Do you think we're verging on one now?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Let me put it this way. I think that what happens is, here's the analogy I've used many times. I think it's an appropriate analogy. Suppose you're on a big racetrack, and you're in a car, you're driving along, and there's nobody else on the racetrack. You're, let's say it's a country road, and it's a huge, big elliptical highway you're on, and there's nobody on it, right? No traffic. All right, so you're listening to your headphones, you're maybe, you know, texting while you're driving, because it's cool. You're going down a country road, nice spacious country road, and there's nobody else on it. Right? You don't drive with the same attention and the same type of awareness as you do when you're in rush hour traffic, obviously, right?

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  I love driving on country roads when there's no other traffic, and just sitting back, enjoying the scenery, listening to some tunes, maybe, you know, having a toke now and then. At least back in the old days, in the old days.

• 1:03:14Jesse Michels?

  Not anymore.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Not anymore. No, not anymore. That is way back in the old days. But suppose you're driving down the road, and up ahead, there's an intersection, and it's a busy highway that crosses the road you're on, and there's traffic coming and going, or they, maybe they're all, maybe it's one way. They're all going in the same direction. For a little while, when you're crossing that intersection, the probabilities or possibilities of an impact of having a crash go up by orders of magnitude. Now, as you're traversing that intersection, at this point, now you need to be cautious. You need to be aware of what you're doing. Presumably, if you can accelerate or brake, as you need to.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  But let's say you're in a car where you have no control over. It's one of, maybe, what do they call it? The robot, the cars, self-driving cars?

• 1:04:11Jesse Michels?

  Self-driving cars.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  You're on a self-driving car, so, okay, so now you're coming up to this intersection. You gotta go, well, I hope that there's a space when I come up there. Now, the probabilities of an impact of a crash are gonna be totally dependent upon the density of the traffic, right?

• 1:04:27Jesse Michels?

  Do you think this is the hermetic reason to try to get to the moon?

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  We'll come back to that. Good question. Come back to that. So, to complete the analogy, is this. If you know that there are periods where you're crossing the intersection, there's two things to take away from this. It's not necessarily foreordained that you're gonna, 100% every time, you're gonna have a crash. It simply means that the periodicity is that there are zones where the susceptibility of a crash increases by orders of magnitude, right? I think this is an analogy of kind of like what we're in. There are places, like, for example, let's say that there's a red light somewhere down on this highway that you're crossing. So what happens is a red light.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  If there's no red lights, cars naturally get spread out. Kinematically, that's called, okay? If there's a red light, everybody gets clustered, right? So the red light changes to green, and now, instead of cars spread out, they're clustered and they're moving along together, right? Let's say that, for whatever reason, as you're crossing the highway, there are zones where the density is fairly low, but there's other places where the density is high, right? Now, instead of a highway you're crossing, you're crossing a meteor stream. Depending on how old that meteor stream is, is gonna determine how spread out this stuff is,

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  and whether or not there are clusters, clumps, if you will, within that orbit. It's exactly analogous to the torrid meteor stream.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  If you know that we cross that torrid meteor stream twice each year, and that within that stream, which covers millions of miles, there are clumps. If you knew that, you know what, in such and such year, for 10 years, we're going to be crossing the stream when there's a high-density clump there. Okay, so now you know that the probabilities, the danger, it's not, again, foreordained that there's absolutely certain that you're going to have an impact. But what you know is, is that the possibility of an impact goes up exponentially.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Now, if you're a civilization and you know that and you're aware of that, what do you do? How do you plan for such a thing? I'd say there's two things. One, you try to take preventative action. Somehow to prevent the crashes, to prevent that. How do you do that? Well, the idea I like most is that you are actually able to move stuff out of the way. If you've got an advanced enough civilization. And we saw the very, very first attempts at that with the DART mission. Imagine that we continue the DART experiments for another 50 or 100 years. I'd say we're probably going to be pretty good at being able to nudge dangerous asteroids out of the way.

• 1:07:32Jesse Michels?

  Maybe you get the second stage of Starship, which is much bigger.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  There we go. Exactly. There you go.

• 1:07:39Jesse Michels?

  That might be able to move something bigger.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  But, let's say that you also know that there might be circumstances where particularly if you're in a clump, if the difference between a single asteroid and the shower of a fragmented comet nucleus will actually be two very different scenarios. Because in a cometary shower, you might have hundreds of objects. Now... The other thing, I said in the summertime torrids, late June, early July. What happened in late June of 1908?

• 1:08:16Jesse Michels?

  Tunguska.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Tunguska.

• 1:08:17Jesse Michels?

  Isn't there speculation that the 1908 Tunguska?

• 1:08:20Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 1:08:21Jesse Michels?

  Event was possibly...

• 1:08:22Speaker 05

  Correct, correct. Because the Tunguska event took place on the 30th of June 1908. It was an airburst. It exploded in the air, flattened 2,000 square miles of trees. Didn't kill anybody because it was over an uninhabited area of Siberia, but did enormous, enormous damage. And the fact that it occurred on the 30th of June suggests very strongly that it was part of the torrid meteor stream, because that is the peak of the torrids in June.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Almost certainly a member of the torrid meteor stream.

• 1:08:50Jesse Michels?

  June 30th.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  June 30th. And it also, actually it's radiant point where it came from space. Remember, here's the sun, right? Exactly where it needed to be if it was a member of the torrid.

• 1:09:02Jesse Michels?

  So the second thing you would do outside of deflection technology is move underground.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Move to a place of refuge.

• 1:09:09Jesse Michels?

  Or a place of refuge, which could be the moon.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Which could be off-planet.

• 1:09:15Jesse Michels?

  Off-planet.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  And to a civilization with spacefaring capabilities, to me, the moon would be the logical place.

• 1:09:25Jesse Michels?

  So why would they have some sort of prime directive of non-interference? If they're so far advanced, you know, so let's just assume, let's, this is, we're crazy speculative territory here. I know that, you know, you're not, you're not saying any of this is true, but say that there's aspects of the Atlanteans, say that there are groups of Atlanteans that saved themselves and moved into sort of compartments of the moon. And maybe they're the UFOs that we've been seeing. Maybe they use sort of water on Earth to refuel. Maybe they're actually underwater bases as well. Again, crazy speculation. If that's true, why do they seem to be so weakly entangled with human beings? Why don't they just present themselves to us?

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  I would say this.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  I think as we advance, like I look at what's happening right now and I look at what our own government has done since World War II. It's interfered and intervened in 100 different things.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  You know, engineering, uh, you know, uh, elections, organizing coups. You know, economic interference, political interference, military interference.

• 1:10:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  And what we see now is we're sitting here moving close to a major confrontation with the greatest nuclear power on earth.

• 1:10:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's pretty scary.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  For what? For what purpose ultimately is the end game of us trying to control eastern Ukraine?

• 1:10:59Jesse Michels?

  You know, man, I, I, it's, it's, yeah, no, that's crazy and it's, it's provocative tourist and

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 1:11:04Jesse Michels?

  And it's, and it's scary. I think, uh, the, the, today, as of today, the Russians dispatched this, uh, nuclear ship, uh, and it's, it's now, uh, above Norway. And so, and then, uh, you know, uh, we just ordered all of our citizens to leave Russia.

• 1:11:21Jesse Michels?

  You know, we have no idea why. This is very scary.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Crazy, crazy shit.

• 1:11:25Jesse Michels?

  And I think Putin has a tattoo that says, "Ben, a knee for no man" and, you know, obviously was president of the, not the KGB, the FSB were very involved in the KGB. Not a thug, not a good guy.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Now, here's, yeah, he doesn't, you know, none of the Soviet leaders were good guys, but we managed to avoid war with them. We carried on diplomatic relations. That's how we avoided war, right?

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  You know, um, Roosevelt met with, with, um, Stalin. Stalin was

• 1:11:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Way worse than Putin.

• 1:11:58Jesse Michels?

  Way worse.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Way worse. Yeah, and I mean

• 1:12:01Jesse Michels?

  Stalin was, um, Time Magazine's Man of the Year in 1945.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, well, yeah. But so, we've, you know, from, you know, through, from Stalin, through Khrushchev, through, you know, Andropov, Kosegen, Yeltsin, Mikhail Gorbachev, we have carried on dialogues. Right? This is not going on now.

• 1:12:27Jesse Michels?

  Well, here's what, my basic mapping of the world is, it's almost like the globalist forces that repressed war over the last 70 years, like the sort of neoliberal order is in its death throes.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Well, I'm hoping, see, and this circles back to your question. I think that what we have now is we have a, uh, Belligerently interventionist foreign policy. I think that if we evolved to where our leaders were wise, you know, in looking at the long-term picture, they would realize that this kind of intervention is ultimately going to lead to the demise of civilization.

• 1:13:10Jesse Michels?

  Well, the US is running a loop that worked for some time, you know, it worked and then you had, you know, Desert Storm, and then you get Iraq in 2003, and then it's just continuous like sort of false flag, create an auspice, and then you go in and, you know, the dollar is, it's a petrodollar, it's tied to oil, and so you create all these sort of mandates to be, you know, pretty aggressive and almost be kind of a neo-imperial regime. And it really did work for a long time, but it worked in a regime of economic growth and domestic, you know, relative domestic peace. And it doesn't, it feels like a cargo cult now, like it's not working. You're running this like kind of loop that doesn't really work anymore. And so it's scary.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  It is scary, and it's leading us into a confrontation because there's no, see, when you go back to the days of, you know, the diplomacy, and you actually had people running this country who I think had some level of consciousness about them. When you look at some of the great leaders after World War II, you know, going, say, John Kennedy, he was, to me, a preeminent example of somebody who, you can even see the wisdom just in a few years that's emerging in his, his understanding of the world.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  You know, we could certainly get into all the discussion of his assassination and all of that. I think that was a major turning point.

• 1:14:38Jesse Michels?

  But they didn't make people like even him today. Like he, he won a Purple Heart, I think in Vietnam. Oh, sorry, no, he won a Purple Heart in World War II.

• 1:14:49Jesse Michels?

  Because he like dragged one of his people, crewmen of his ship by his teeth to shore. Two miles. He swam, he saved the guy's life.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00Jesse Michels?

  And then they were like, you know, on, on, on the beach somewhere for, for like two days until

• 1:15:07Jesse Michels?

  somebody in the air finally found him, fighter pilot finally found him. And so, you know, that's not today's leaders. That's not, you don't, you can't find that anymore.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  It is not.

• 1:15:16Jesse Michels?

  And that's him. And you know, people then would probably call him soft compared to like Theodore Roosevelt, so.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Perhaps so. But here's, I guess the point would be this. I think that if we survive as a civilization on this planet, it's going to become, because the dominant powers basically become non-interventionist. In other words, I have neighbors next door here and we're friends and we communicate and this. We don't fight, right? I don't intervene in their business. They don't intervene in mine. And because we don't do that, we get along. What we have now is a, a, a, a government that's totally committed to intervention around the entire world.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  This is full spectrum dominance. This is global hegemony. This is what, there's a cabal within the US government that wants to dominate the entire planet. And one of the things, the greatest obstacles to that dominance is Russia. Because for one thing, Russia isn't buying into the new world order bullshit. That they're, and, and they've decided that they're going to disconnect from the, uh, the American dollar and perhaps even go back to gold.

• 1:16:31Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that there is a kind of a paramilitary group or they're kind of old, old wealthy families that might have leverage over the United States beyond the kind of

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  It seems like.

• 1:16:41Jesse Michels?

  Prima facie.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  It seems like it. I, I don't know if there's really any hidden hands so much as I, I'm kind of more of the mind that we can We can figure out and see who the key players are.

• 1:16:54Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there are elements of the US government that have retrieved alien craft and are reverse engineering it?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Well, now see, that brings us back to the other question that you asked that we haven't really answered yet, is why, you asked this, why have they not, if these hypothetical entities, living wherever, and we're speculating that perhaps based on the moon, you asked why they haven't intervened?

• 1:17:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, why do they drop little things here and there at most?

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  I would think that's exactly how we would do it. If we, you brought up the cargo cults, if we were trying to make contact with a primitive civilization, let's say that there's a civilization on an island, that, you know, I mean, even in going into the 20th century, we know that there were advanced industrial cultures living almost side by side with primitive hunter-gatherer cultures.

• 1:17:50Jesse Michels?

  Say you're Indian now and you want to affect the North Sentinelis, who haven't been touched, basically, what do you do, like, you know, would you act like the Atlanteans on the moon or acting towards us?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  I would think that's how you would do it.

• 1:18:02Jesse Michels?

  So, in your mind, what have they been doing? They've been airdropping tech here and there and maybe whispering in scientists' ears?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  They've been showing up in our skies to let us know that, hey, there's something bigger going on here.

• 1:18:16Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  And I don't think we need to go to the stars and think extraterrestrial for that.

• 1:18:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Because I think we could, I think we could make the case that, and this actually fits quite well with some of the ancient traditions, that humanity has split on maybe even several occasions. And if we were faced with the kind of disaster on the scale of the Younger Dryas now, and we knew that That, you know, we, a large comet comes into the inner solar system and we are observing it on a monthly and yearly basis, undergoing a hierarchy of fragmentation events. And we know that sooner or later, we're gonna have encounters where it's very likely that this planet gets pummeled.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  What do we do? Well, we could do a bunch of things, but the main thing is we create a place of refuge. And the logical place, and this is even scenarios that have been offered by NASA, is that a logical place for us to create a place of refuge would be the moon. And this is being presented with no reference whatsoever to the possibility that this may have once, or more than once, happened before. And in fact, think about this, Jesse, what if there was a tradition that there was an ongoing place of refu-- just like, think about the I, the book, The Irish Saved Civilization.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  What happened during those dark ages of the, of the 500s to like the 900s, 400 years, where the advance, the forward momentum of civilization almost came to a screeching halt, right? And we can see, excuse me, we can see the effects weren't just cultural, they were also natural. We can see that there was literal times of darkness. The years 536 to 542 AD were periods where, you know, the, the, the, the records of the monks and the, the people who were living through that time talk about weeks and months at a time when they couldn't see the sun. That could be the result of two things.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  It could be a spasm of volcanic activity that fills the atmosphere with stuff, or it could be close encounters with disintegrating comets. Fred Hoyle has done a whole scenario where some of the particulate matter of a disintegrating comet nuclei would so saturate the upper atmosphere and have, be so highly reflective that it would, that, that the thermal energy of the sun would get radiated back into space. And it would do two things, it would create perpetual, uh, absence of the sun from the visible sun in the sky, and it would also cause a plunge in the temperature. Those two things seem to have happened simultaneously. In that period in the mid 6th century.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  This in turn led to pretty much a collapse of civilization. That took around 400 years for civilization, at least in Europe anyway, to recover. And that recovery occurred once the cold and the dark dissipated and the warmth of the medieval warm period came back again in between, you know, around 1000 AD, right? Now, think of it this way. You had during that period of time, like you can, again, I would recommend the whole, the book, How the Irish Saved Civilization, because during that time, the Irish retreated into a series of monasteries.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  And what they did was they dedicated themselves to preserving as much of the knowledge of the times, the historical records, the traditions, to keep all of that alive. And so you have Druidic and Celtic traditions being preserved in these monasteries. And when the climate of the earth ameliorated again with the, with the return of the warmth and the sun, they were there with their books. They were there with their traditions that they had preserved. This helped to accelerate the recovery of Western civilization.

• 1:22:37Jesse Michels?

  So, but if you're the Atlanteans, why don't you just come down and you say, hey, we have this advanced technology. We can get a bunch of you up to the moon. Are they waiting to see who's worthy? Is that it?

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Well, there could be a number of reasons for that.

• 1:22:50Jesse Michels?

  There's limited space on the moon?

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  I'm thinking, well, that, well, there might be more space than you would anticipate, but the.

• 1:22:58Jesse Michels?

  The earth is, the moon is a fourth of the earth's size, is that right?

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  It's, I think about 2.72, I think, let's see. Yeah, the moon is to the earth as 11 is to 3.

• 1:23:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so yeah, roughly.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  11 to 3 is very close to the earth-moon diameter ratios.

• 1:23:18Jesse Michels?

  Do you worry about a cataclysm, or maybe answer that question first? Yeah, so why, why don't they interfere with us more directly? Or why don't they try to help us more directly?

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Well, I think that part of it is, I think they have a very strict. And of course, purely speculative, but it would seem to me that if you advance to that level, you would most likely practice a strict non-interventionist policy.

• 1:23:43Jesse Michels?

  Why is that?

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Well, the same reason, because there's always downsides. Whenever we intervene, there's always a downside.

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

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• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Oh, we're going to intervene with our foreign aid. Well, what happens? The foreign aid doesn't go to the recipients. It goes to a bunch of oligarchs and dictators who use it to oppress their people.

• 1:24:29Jesse Michels?

  Like the Iraq war, you remove Saddam as a sort of a pressure valve?

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:24:35Jesse Michels?

  And then all of a sudden, Iran is emboldened and ISIS movement.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  I think that what we've seen, 20th century history has shown us that there's always blowback.

• 1:24:45Jesse Michels?

  Or the CIA trains Osama bin Laden and the Mujahideen.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Yes, that's what I mean. There's always this blowback, and at some point, you figure out, okay, you know what? We're not going to intervene anymore, politically or militarily. We'll practice free trade, but there won't be a policy. So there's a huge difference between free trade and cultural exchange, artistic exchange. That happens, that brings people together.

• 1:25:14Jesse Michels?

  So Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, had it right, the prime directive, non-interference.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Yes, there we go.

• 1:25:21Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:23Jesse Michels?

  And do you think that gravity is, or do you have a theory of physics that maybe transcends gravity? Do you think gravity is maybe couched within electromagnetism or?

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  This gets complicated, and this brings us into some of the, where I'm at now with my studies.

• 1:25:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  And as I'm trying to wrap my head around plasma physics as possibly

• 1:25:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  part of our own energy future. As well as possibly our remote energy past.

• 1:25:56Jesse Michels?

  Well, people have always wondered about gravity. Well, I've so the two anomalies that I always look at in physics, and I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. But the things intuitively that I feel are off are gravity and time. And in relativity, those two are coupled in very weird ways. And then when you get to super subscale quantum, you can't really reconcile that with gravity.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:18Jesse Michels?

  And then you possibly get some time spookiness around subatomic scales as well that, you know, that would be certain interpretations. And so, yeah, obviously, gravity is much, much weaker than the electromagnetic force as well. Is there some sort of magnetic pulling force between celestial bodies that weakly correlates with its mass? But that's more magnetic in nature? Or, yeah, I don't know. How do you think about it?

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  I don't really have thoughts on that so much as. But thinking about, you know, the whole issue of quantum entanglement and.

• 1:26:56Jesse Michels?

  Can I shift gears then?

• 1:26:59Jesse Michels?

  Unless you want to.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:27:02Jesse Michels?

  Do you think the magnetic field of the earth is weakening, which then allows for all sorts of solar storm events and scary X risk?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  I think, you know, I think it's more volatile and dynamic than it has been assumed. I don't, you know, what does it take to cause a magnetic field reversal? I think the last magnetic field reversal was about 700,000 years ago.

• 1:27:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  But there's also magnetic geomagnetic excursions they're referred to. What causes that? I don't know. I would certainly think, though, that what the events of the Younger Dryas, if anything, would be capable of causing fluctuations within the geomagnetic field. Those events could be.

• 1:27:45Jesse Michels?

  And why is that? So there's a guy named Charles Hapgood, who we've talked about, and he writes about pole shifts.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Jesse Michels?

  And there are people, especially a lot of people online, that are like, you know, every 12,000 years, the poles shift. And then, you know, everything resets. That, to me, feels way too kind of neat and perfect.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Oversimplified.

• 1:28:03Jesse Michels?

  And oversimplified. And so you have an interesting explanation for why the poles shift, which then might result in geomagnetic anomalies as well. But there's something upstream of both of those, right?

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Well, I wish I had my globe sitting on the table here, which I will have here eventually. But the earth is an oblate spheroid. The equatorial diameter is 26 miles greater than the polar diameter. So that means that if you're starting at the equator, you travel at the equator to the North Pole, you've gone downhill 13 miles relative to the Earth's center of mass. You've gone downhill 13 miles. Okay, now, as the Earth is spinning, you have the distance, say, from the crust at the equator, it's going to be 13 miles farther from the Earth's center of gravity than, say, Antarctica now, or the Arctic Ocean crust, right?

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Now, what happens is, is during an ice age, you have this gigantic transfer of surface mass, right? Now, at the beginning of the Wisconsin Ice Age, we went from a state of basically less, far less, glacial ice on the Earth than there is now. This is way back, say, 108,000 years ago. Okay, so now, over a period of a very short period of time in the geological framework, you have this enormous transfer of mass out of the ocean basins up onto the continent,

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  up to the point where ocean levels worldwide dropped 400, 450 feet. You get 6 to 7 million cubic miles of glacial ice piled up on the Earth's surface. Now, I've gotten very much into this, the phenomena of how the crust of the Earth responds to this redistribution of surface mass. And I get very much into that in my Atlantis, eight-hour, nine-hour Atlantis lecture. It's available online for download, if anybody is interested in diving into this further. Okay, so what happens is, is there is isostatic adjustment, it's called, which ever since the 60s, we've accepted that there's lateral movements of the Earth's crust.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  You know, Hapgood, in a sense, kind of anticipated continental drift. Although in his scenarios, it was much, much faster than the models of continental drift now is a few centimeters per year. And so supposedly, you know, if you have a, um, a, uh, you know, coalescing or plates are coming together, you're gonna have either an overriding of one plate, or you're gonna have a buckling. This produces orogenesis, the uplifting of mountains. Um, if you got like on the leading edge of a plate, or if you're on a, a separation zone like the mid-Atlantic ridge, it's gonna be separating, uh, magma's gonna be welling up from the mantle, spreading out, and this is how they set up that chronostatigraphic framework

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  based upon changes in the geomagnetic field, because when the magma crystallizes, it, it freezes in, it locks in the orientation of the minerals along the prevailing magnetic field. Right? So this is how we know that the magnetic field, the primary way we know that the magnetic field is, is actually quite dynamic. But now, getting back to what I'm dogging about here is that we're accepting lateral movement, and we know, just from Hudson Bay, for example, that, uh, and even from, oh, studies around Lake Bonneville and other places, that the Earth's crust can move vertically. This is the isostatic movement, vertical, right? Now, up in Hudson Bay, it appears that the crust of the Earth

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  has been depressed by the weight of the ice at least 1,500 feet. Maybe in places much more than that. Now, picture you've got a big beach ball, right? That's the, that's the Earth. And let's say we decide to put massive amounts of weight at both of the poles, and it's gonna compress the Earth this way. What's gonna happen this way? It's gonna expand, isn't it? The beach ball, assuming that that the amount of air is constant, the beach ball is going to try to maintain a a um a a uniformity, a consistency of volume.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  So in other words, if it shrinks one way, it has to compensate by expanding elsewhere. This is why I get into the whole question of what happened with Atlantis is because when you pile up six million cubic miles of ice onto North America and maybe another million cubic mi- two million cubic miles of ice over northwestern Europe, it's squashing down the crust, right? Now, at the same time you're doing that, what you're doing is you're creating subsurface pressures. Also, as you're increasing the weight here, what's happening to the weight of the water in the ocean basins? Because the the water in the oceans is being evaporated out, precipitated out as snowfall.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  But when you have the onset of a glacial age, the whole natural yearly annual hydrological cycle of the planet is completely disrupted. Like, right now, what happens is that we get a lot of snow in Canada, northern United States. It accumulates every winter. Spring comes, it melts, it goes into the rivers, it's transported back to the sea, it goes into the groundwater, right? So you've got this this um this constancy be- in in the system. The amount of water evaporated out, it may, in the summer, it falls as rainfall, but it it immediately goes into the hydrosphere.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  If it's a northern latitude, Canada, for example, northern Europe, it falls as snowfall, but then there's a delay of up to months at a time before it melts and reintroduces into the hydrosphere, right? So now, what happens with the onset of a glacial age, it is almost this. It would be almost, and and given that we know about the timeframes in which these climatic transitions can occur, it is almost as if somebody flips a switch, winter comes on, and then it doesn't end for 10,000 years. Hmm. But the conundrum and the problem is, is you're still evaporating very large volumes of water out of the ocean basins

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  to precipitate out and build up an ice sheet that's a mile, mile and a half, maybe even two miles thick. So there's the paradox of an ice age. For one thing, it's got to be cold enough that that snow is piling up, compressing down first into fern, then to compress down more into glacial ice, but it's not melting. But at the same time, you're getting huge amounts of snowfall, which means that there's water vapor up in the atmosphere. And how does that water vapor get there? It requires heat. There's your conundrum.

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  Can you explain that paradox?

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  No, I can't. I have some kind of vague thoughts on it. But let's circle back to this idea of isostasy.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  The onset of an ice age comes along and interrupts that cycle. Now, what happens is winter comes on to the world and it doesn't go away for 10,000, 12,000 years. You've got this huge mass of ice pressing down. You have hundreds of trillions of billions of tons of ice pressing down on the surface of the earth. At the same time, waste is being released from the ocean basins. So what's going to happen naturally to the ocean basins? What's going to be the counterpart of the pushing down? The isostatic depression under the ice sheets? It's going to go in the other direction, isn't it? The ocean basins are going to raise up isostatically.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  And then when you reverse that and you melt away the ice sheets, pour that water back into the ocean. What's going to happen? Now, the ocean is going to respond, basins are going to respond isostatically by depressing the continents, as we know from observations, are going to rebound. Now, think about what happens in the geophysical sense of the distribution of the continental masses, the crust of the earth, when over a period of a few thousand years, which is just a geological instant, it's suddenly 2,000 feet out of whack with the latitude it would normally be at.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  In other words, if you push down the polar region, like say, North America is pushed down 2,000 feet, you release that weight, it's now rebounding, but when it's rebounded 2,000 feet, farther away from the center of mass, now it's not in equilibrium with its latitude anymore, is it?

• 1:37:09Jesse Michels?

  Uh-uh.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  No. So what is it gonna try to do in order to achieve re-equilibrium? I think that what happens is, is that with the process of glatiation, rapid glatiation or rapid deglatiation, it induces a tremendous amount of instability in the Earth's crust that could manifest as an accelerated episode of continental, of lithospheric movement.

• 1:37:39Jesse Michels?

  And that would explain the pole shift.

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  And that would explain the pole shift.

• 1:37:42Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  But I don't think that it's something that occurs, you know, in days or weeks. I think it takes several thousand years, and in fact, it's still happening. It is still happening. But, one more thing. Within that, I think there are episodes where the transition, it's just like what we saw happen in Turkey and Syria. The stress builds up on a fault line, it keeps building up and building up until finally it overcomes the resistance of the rock, it moves, and it creates a, an earthquake.

• 1:38:15Jesse Michels?

  And you've said that there can be possibly tropical zones in Antarctica, right?

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, there are, there are, we're at least subtropical zones.

• 1:38:24Jesse Michels?

  What about now?

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  What do you mean, what about now?

• 1:38:27Jesse Michels?

  Are there any sort of habitable, possibly habitable zones in Antarctica?

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  In Antarctica?

• 1:38:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  The South Pole?

• 1:38:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:38:36Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's a whole nother...

• 1:38:41Jesse Michels?

  Do you know Admiral Richard Byrd?

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  I know the stories.

• 1:38:45Jesse Michels?

  What do you think of that story?

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  I don't know what to think. I guess we need to do an Antarctica expedition.

• 1:38:51Jesse Michels?

  Let's do it.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  You've been suggesting that, haven't you?

• 1:38:54Jesse Michels?

  I can't wait, yeah, let's do, I'd love to.

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  Okay. Can we do the Azores first?

• 1:39:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, let's do the Azores first.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  That sounds more suitable for my disposition at this point in my life. Perpetual spring.

• 1:39:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there you go, yeah, more of a Caribbean cruise.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:15Jesse Michels?

  You've been a Freemason for over thirty years.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Well, let's see, I was initiated in nineteen seventy-eight, how many years is that going on?

• 1:39:23Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  Forty-five years?

• 1:39:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, almost.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  I was a young man of twenty-seven when I was initiated.

• 1:39:29Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  I was raised in March of nineteen seventy-nine, became master of my lodge in nineteen ninety.

• 1:39:36Jesse Michels?

  Randall, you've been a Freemason for over forty years.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Unbelievable.

• 1:39:41Jesse Michels?

  Unbelievable. How does that dovetail with your interest in the origins of humanity and in these civilizational cycles?

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Oh, very much so. Cataclysm? I mean, very much so.

• 1:39:54Jesse Michels?

  How do they connect?

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Masons are the custodians of a very rich tradition of ancient knowledge.

• 1:40:00Jesse Michels?

  What is that ancient knowledge?

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Well, architecture, sacred geometry, astronomy, music.

• 1:40:07Jesse Michels?

  And you're, you build both homes and commercially during the day, that's your day job, which always fascinated me because I don't know how you know as much as you do about this sort of esoteric stuff and the geology, and yet you are able to be... We're going to a restaurant later that you built.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:40:26Jesse Michels?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is very cool.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  Well, you know, to me, it's all intertwined, you know. My interest in geology, I'm sorry, geometry primarily, stems from early building projects I did in the early seventies, you know, building Buckminster Fuller Dome, for example.

• 1:40:46Jesse Michels?

  You built, like, you built, what do they call it, Bucky?

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, Bucky domes.

• 1:40:51Jesse Michels?

  Bucky domes?

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:53Jesse Michels?

  You built a Bucky dome?

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, a couple of them.

• 1:40:55Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:57Jesse Michels?

  Is that true?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't make that up.

• 1:41:01Jesse Michels?

  And so that got you into Freemasonry, was Buckminster Fuller?

• 1:41:03Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't do it with Buckminster Fuller.

• 1:41:04Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  No, I mean, no, I never met Bucky, I would have loved to have met Bucky, but I didn't.

• 1:41:09Jesse Michels?

  No, I know you didn't meet, but you built Bucky domes and was he inspired by Freemasonry in any way?

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  I don't, I've never seen any evidence of that, but maybe.

• 1:41:20Jesse Michels?

  My friend was just telling me that he went to this place called Black Mountain College or something, or Black Mountain University.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, North Carolina.

• 1:41:26Jesse Michels?

  North Carolina, exactly.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  I've been there, yeah.

• 1:41:29Jesse Michels?

  Which almost seems Freemasonic in some ways, because it was so interdisciplinary and it taught Plato and...

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's kind of has served in a way as a model, a smaller scale model of the school I'd like to build.

• 1:41:41Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Which we are going to build.

• 1:41:43Jesse Michels?

  Wait, so, so, how does, what does Freemasonry have to do with this?

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Well, Freemasonry, historically, I think we can trace it back to, the conservative interpretation is it traces back to the early 1700s, but, and when I became a Mason, that was the dominant view. I think there's been plenty of scholarship now that can show a succession going back to the Middle Ages.

• 1:42:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  And the building of the Gothic cathedrals. And I think there were two traditions that sort of merged together that, that became the basis for modern Freemasonry. One being the guild, the lodge system of guild builders that actually built the cathedrals, and the Templar Knights. And, because we find both very prevalent throughout modern Masonic traditions.

• 1:42:36Jesse Michels?

  How did the Templars affect the Freemasons?

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of their, particularly in things like the York Rite and a lot of the ceremonies and stuff, there's a lot of Templar references, things that seem to have parallels with what we know about Templar ceremonies and things. So, yeah, I think that the two mainstreams that came together, out of which modern Freemasonry was born, was the Templar tradition and the guild tradition of cathedral builders.

• 1:43:07Jesse Michels?

  So are these, you know, in popular lore, people see Masons both as very good, you know, the founding fathers were all Masons, obviously, and then, and then sometimes evil, and sort of trying to control the world or whatever, and you even read like Manley P. Hall's, what is it, like The Secret Destiny of America or whatever, and it just feels this, like this sort of globalist aspiration.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Well... I'd like to point out that, you know, Masons are very proud of famous individuals that have been Masons.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  So it's well documented who's been a Mason in history, who at present is a Mason. Although, here's the thing, if you start looking at all of the characters now that we think of when we talk about New World Order, when we talk about the World Economic Forum, the World Health Organization, when we talk about, you know, the main politicians that are, you know, when we look at all of that, you're not going to find any Freemasons. You know, you look at Klaus Schwab, George Soros, you know, Bill Gates, you start going down the list.

• 1:44:16Jesse Michels?

  What are those people and what ties them together?

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  I don't know what they are, but they're not Freemasons.

• 1:44:21Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they're old European families that sort of?

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  I think some, you know, obviously the Rothschilds. And see, here's the thing, you might have had some of these people become Freemasons, obviously. But I'll point out several things. You said, you mentioned the founding fathers. A lot of them were Freemasons, and they drew their traditions of the worth of the individual, of liberty, of democracy and all. Those were being practiced within the lodge system before America was founded.

• 1:44:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the Washington Monument is an obelisk.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  It's an obelisk, yes.

• 1:44:56Jesse Michels?

  The eye of Osiris on the bill.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Freemasons, you know, again, you know, if you look like the biblical injunction, you know, by their works you shall know them. I mean, Freemasons do incredible work and they eschew any kind of recognition. I mean, to the extent that, you know, I'll use an example. Have you ever heard of the Scottish Rite Hospital for crippled and burned children?

• 1:45:23Jesse Michels?

  No, is that a Freemasonic?

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Look it up, look it up. Look up Scottish Rite Hospital.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  Yes, they, they, on average in America, and I, this used to be accurate, since the numbers of Masons have declined, this number may not be absolute accurate anymore. But in round numbers, Masonry in its heyday, like when I came in in the seventies and the eighties and stuff, a million dollars a day they raised in charity.

• 1:45:50Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  A million dollars every day.

• 1:45:52Jesse Michels?

  That's awesome.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  Yes, and it went to good works.

• 1:45:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  And Masons, a big, huge part of the Masonic traditions is charity.

• 1:46:02Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  And that's the first thing, when you're initiated, one of the first things you're taught about is the importance of charity, taking care of your fellow man. You know, the whole idea of brotherhood and brotherly love is right at the cornerstone of the thing, isn't it? And the stuff that's being promulgated online is total garbage.

• 1:46:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  It's garbage.

• 1:46:25Jesse Michels?

  That's my sense too, I think if anything, Freemasonry's unfortunately lost a lot of its vitality, like.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Oh, it has.

• 1:46:33Jesse Michels?

  I wish our leaders were Freemasons.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  So do I, I wish they were.

• 1:46:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, because it's both about.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  George, good luck finding anybody in the Biden administration that's a Freemason.

• 1:46:43Jesse Michels?

  Totally, totally. And it's all, it's all about sort of self-cultivation, but in a, you know, outside of obviously charity and generosity and brotherly love, but in a well-rounded way as well. And in a multidisciplinary way, and in a way that's practical too, and so.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  Practical, very much. The idea of Freemasonry is very much about leading a practical life, but in the symbols of Freemasonry, you know, the compass and the square, the plumb bob, you know, the plumb bob, like how do Masons meet? You've heard of this saying, you know, we conclude a business deal and we just, I do a project for you, you hire me, you know, we've fulfilled all the terms of the contract, we're both happy, we end with a handshake, right? We go, are we on the level? Are we square? Meaning, yeah, we're square, we're good, man, we're both happy. Both of those are pure Masonic terms, right out of the Masonic philosophy.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  You know, are we square? Meaning, you know.

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  Is everybody happy with this outcome? Is that a fair exchange? Yeah, we've had a fair exchange. On the level, how do Masons meet? On the level. So when you go into a lodge, it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, a multimillionaire, millionaire businessman, corporate head, a plumber, or a carpenter, or a famous celebrity. When you go into that lodge, you're all on the same level. Yeah. And I've been in lodges where I'm sitting where there are retired admirals of the Navy and illustrious people who've been very successful in society. But the master of the lodge, sitting in the east with the gavel in hand, who's controlling it all, might be a carpenter.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  And when everybody walk comes in, it doesn't matter, they pay deference to the one who's sitting in the east because he's the one who has just spent seven years climbing the Masonic ladder that now qualifies him to sit in the east and control all the proceedings in the lodge with his gavel. Hmm. Right? So that's how it works. How do Masons meet? On the level. How part? On the square. And? And how act? Yeah. By the plum. Think about a plum bout. You're holding a string with a weight. Okay? Up, think about morally uprightness. Think about the term rectitude.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  See, these are the moral teachings that are just right at the very core of Freemasonry. And I've had people argue with me online saying, "Well, you don't know because, you know, you get up to, you know, you go through up to the 32nd degree, but then when you get to the 33rd degree, that's when you find out it's all evil and satanic and all of that." And I go, "Well, how do you know that? How do you know?" So what you're saying to me, though, is I've been a Mason for 30 years, 35, 40 years. I've- I've climbed up to the thirty-second degree. And all of this time, I didn't know that the third, and I've sat in Lodge with men that I highly respect,

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  that I know that are thirty-third degrees, that are pillars of their community, that do so much good in the world. But somehow, I've gotten up to the thirty-second degree, and I don't know that really this thirty-third degree is this evil cabal. But you, who's challenged me, who don't know an effin' thing about it, the history of it, you read some bullshit online, and now you think you know? And so you're gonna tell me, oh, that it's a secret, that I don't know that the thirty-third is actually this evil cabal. But you're so astute, you figured it out? Because you spent five minutes looking at something on the internet?

• 1:50:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  It's just, it's so ridiculous, it would be laughable. Except for the fact that there are people out there who are totally invested in this belief system, including the dumbass that I was once partnered with, who built Sacred Geometry International.

• 1:50:55Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Well,

• 1:51:00Jesse Michels?

  these group, why do these groups always seem to get persecuted? Like, if there is a line back to the Templars.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Well, look.

• 1:51:06Jesse Michels?

  You know, I think about the Templar story, and I believe they owned a lot of the debt. They had kind of an international banking system, and they owned a lot of the debt of Philip the Fair, Philip the Fourth of Spain. And Philip the Fourth basically slandered them, and said that they were doing, they were engaging in all sorts of, you know, weird rituals with each other. And, in fact, I think it was, they were sort of dedicating themselves to something higher, and so they were, you know, the rumors were that they were spitting on the cross, and doing stuff like that. And I think, in their mind, this is what I read from Rudolf Steiner, who's this Austrian philosopher. They were sort of simulating Peter's denial.

• 1:51:50Jesse Michels?

  And so it was, it was all about sort of dedication to something beyond symbology and higher. But obviously there are easy ways to misinterpret spitting on the cross and they all ended up being burnt at the stake in 1307.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  And I don't know how much of that would have been, you know, you can see the smear campaigns going on today and you know that they're BS. You know, when you see, you know, the mainstream media closing ranks on Graham Hancock and calling him a white supremacist racist, promoter of dangerous conspiracy theories, and if you know anything at all, you know that's complete BS.

• 1:52:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Right? But the idea is, you know, now they can't, they'd like to, some of them would probably like to take and torture Graham, but they can't get away with that.

• 1:52:35Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Like they could have once upon a time.

• 1:52:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:38Speaker 01

  But look at this, every time, if you go through history and you look at what happens when despots and tyrants and dictators take over nations, one of the first things they'll do is they'll shut down Masonic lodges.

• 1:52:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  That's one of the, Hitler did it, Mao did it, Stalin did it, they outlawed Freemasonry. Now, if Freemasonry was really this secret cabal of Satan worshiping global controllers, why would that be? Why would every dictator then shut down a Masonic lodge?

• 1:53:09Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  The other thing I like to point out is of American presidents, 14 of them have been master masons, 14.

• 1:53:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  14.

• 1:53:17Jesse Michels?

  But how many have been Episcopalians?

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  I make that point, 23. That's exactly the point I'm making. 23 of them have been Episcopalians.

• 1:53:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  So you could make exactly the same kind of argument with, with just as much credibility that it's the Episcopalians who are the secret puppet masters of the globe. See, it's that ridiculous.

• 1:53:38Jesse Michels?

  Right. Do you think that, it was rumored that when Jacques de Molay, who was the last Grand Master of the Templars, was persecuted, that he had sort of a... A theory of how the world worked that might have been somewhat subversive to like

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Could be.

• 1:53:54Jesse Michels?

  Setting authorities.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Because I do think that the Templars were custodians of advanced knowledge.

• 1:54:01Jesse Michels?

  And they were also supposed to have, you know, protected maybe a bloodline of Christ.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  This is another possibility. This leads us straight into the whole tradition of the Holy Grail.

• 1:54:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so what, do you think the Holy Grail is the human heart, or do you think it's something

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  I think

• 1:54:18Jesse Michels?

  Physical and real?

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  I think it's a very complex, it's an image for a very complex technology of restoration, of regeneration, of rejuvenation, and so on. And that technology can be applied from an individual all the way up to a nation, all the way up to the planet.

• 1:54:37Jesse Michels?

  And how do you, what's, how do you even start to think about the Holy Grail, which, you know, feels like an impossible to even conceive of.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Well, you do what I did. I spent like a year or two just diving headfirst into the, you know, late 12th, early 13th century Grail romances from Craig Chantetois to Robert de Barron, to, um, from von Eschenbach to Parsival. Exactly. That's what I did.

• 1:55:08Jesse Michels?

  So, that's your prescription to people out there is diving headlong into the 12th and 13th century?

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:55:19Jesse Michels?

  Easy, yeah.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  Or, you know, maybe I'll, you know, part of what I'm trying to do is to provide shortcuts for people.

• 1:55:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  You know, I have been a student of these things since I was in high school in the late 60s. So I've got, you know, half a century. And, you know, you asked like, you know, to me, it's just, I don't know, it's just natural. I learned things, I tend to retain things. I have good retention.

• 1:55:43Jesse Michels?

  You have amazing retention, like as good as anybody I know. It's like, it's an eidetic memory.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  I've been told it's an eidetic memory. I'm not, definitely not photographic memory. Thank God. I don't think I'd want to be photographic memory. But eidetic is that, um, yeah, I have good retention. I have a great, what I have is a well-developed storage system and a good retrieval system.

• 1:56:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  Although my retrieval system sometimes lapses, and I know that the information is there, I just can't get the drawer open. You know, and then later it'll pop open all by itself. And I go, oh, okay, there we go. Okay, yeah, see, there's my file on the holy grail. Let's see who said what. But um, but yeah, see, I think that the mind is just, you know, it's it's the same way as a- a- any organ of your body. If you use it, it gets stronger, more efficient. If you don't use it, yeah, people tend to, they get out of school and they they quit using their brain and they just, instead of getting smarter through their life, they just get dumber.

• 1:56:46Jesse Michels?

  I agree. I also think that the mind, though, needs a strong constitution behind it. I think the mind is pre-leveraged by um, the stomach and by other other organs in the body. And if if if any of those are sort of out of line, um, the mind can often be very powerful, but if it's not well-integrated.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  That's like like right now, my big challenge is getting back, you know, a decade of, the last decade, I've had a pretty tough time in some respects, um, injuries, injuries.

• 1:57:19Jesse Michels?

  Sorry to hear that.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Oh, well, you know, it's natural.

• 1:57:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's a main part of being in a human body and doing the kind of work I've done. You know, it was between, you know, construction work and extreme type sports things, you know.

• 1:57:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:35Speaker 01

  You don't come through that unscathed, and I wouldn't trade it, other than, you know, I've got issues that have have slowed me down. And because of that, it's shifted my metabolism, but I have the resources now that I didn't have a few years ago. You know, my business was going like gangbusters when the um, when the real estate bubble popped in two thousand nine, two thousand ten, and I had, went from pretty good income to like very large debts within one year. And the dissolution of my company. Um, so.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  I realized then that that, you know, can have a big effect on you.

• 1:58:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  You know, it really, you know, it sent me reeling.

• 1:58:18Jesse Michels?

  Of course.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  Created a lot of stress.

• 1:58:20Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  Stress.

• 1:58:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  And stress can actually be a killer.

• 1:58:24Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it's really bad.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  It is. So I've tried to do things now to de-stress my life.

• 1:58:29Jesse Michels?

  Good.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  You know, it's working. I had a few years' spell there where it was a struggle. But I thought, okay, I gotta keep my eye on the prize here. I've gotta keep moving.

• 1:58:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  And I got through it. But now I've got residual effects that I'm dealing with. But,

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  you know, I've got

• 1:58:49Jesse Michels?

  C'est la vie.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  The last few years, you know, my access to resources has increased enormously as a result of what I've been doing. So I'm in a very position now to pretty much regenerate.

• 1:59:01Jesse Michels?

  A. Speaking of which, and at the risk of displaying extreme hubris in this question, but also, this sort of is emblematic of what I do with you all the time. You are a man of, you know, helping other people with shortcuts. What is your shortcut to the Holy Grail?

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my shortcut for the Holy Grail would be that I have, well, I've put together a whole presentation. Where I break it down. I get into the authors and I analyze the symbolism.

• 1:59:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  And

• 1:59:34Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it's a physical thing, or do you think it is?

• 1:59:38Speaker 01

  I think, I'll put it this way. I think it's a technology.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a tech, now, we talked about

• 1:59:45Jesse Michels?

  Within the human body or outside of it, or?

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  Anything that's living.

• 1:59:50Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a technology of regeneration.

• 1:59:55Jesse Michels?

  Sort of, hmm, regeneration, interesting.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So for a debilitated body, it can regenerate. For a debilitated wasteland.

• 2:00:04Jesse Michels?

  Does it explain sort of spontaneous remissions and healings and that sort of thing?

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Well, in a sense, perhaps, yes. But I think that understanding the applications of the technology may appear to be spontaneous.

• 2:00:24Speaker 01

  But I mean, just, there's a very interesting overlaps between the Grail stories, the Grail traditions, and alchemy.

• 2:00:33Speaker 01

  The Grail basically is like the counterpart to the philosopher's stone.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  The philosopher's stone, you know, is regenerative, right? One of the things that confers longevity, well, so does the Grail, right? There's, and in my presentations and the things that I do publicly, in lectures and classes, in private meetings and classes, and what I will be doing, and the content that I'll be creating over the next year or two, I'm gonna be incrementally taking pieces of this information and disclosing it as much as possible.

• 2:01:14Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that religion has a sort of proto-architecture? And that, you know, there are connections between Dionysus and Jesus, and Dionysian rituals and Jesus, and so you do?

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. You know, I look at the spiritual tradition almost as being like,

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  like a great underground, subterranean river, which periodically emerges and breaks through the surface and flows over the surface. And it waters the world. It brings the subterranean minerals and the life-replenishing waters to the world.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  It might be 200 years of the magnificent cathedral building, which coincided with the disclosure of the Grail romances to the world, which coincided with the troubadours using their spiritual songs and poetry to carry information, sacred information, around the world and civilization. Coincided with the first schools of Kabalah that were established in Spain.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Corresponded to the rise of Catharism, of Templarism, of the Gnostic building tradition, and the building of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe.

• 2:02:38Jesse Michels?

  Do you think we're...

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  The great architecture of Southeast Asia, the final wave of monumental earthworks in North America, etc. Something came out, something emerged, and it watered the spiritual fertility of the planet, and then it went back underground.

• 2:02:58Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that we are living in another such age? So Carl Jasper, the German philosopher, had a term called axial age, and that was like a time when past meaning structures were sort of slopped off, and you'd get these new sort of revelations. I think he used it to describe the 8th century B.C. to the 3rd century B.C. You had Confucius and Lao Tzu, and who else would you have had at that time? You know, Plato and Socrates and Aristotle.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  They were a little later, but yeah, during that period of time, I, well, I think there are times where, you know, you do need new forms. It's, time changes, you know? The planet changes, the planet that we inhabit is evolving, right? We have to evolve along with it. But at the same time, in order to maximize the probabilities of successful transformations going into the future, we have to keep a viable, vigorous pipeline to our own past. Because there are traditions, I think, that have woven their way through the whole history of civilization.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  And again, using that analogy of an underground stream emerging from time to time, watering the meadows, watering the valley, and then life and civilization is, you know, abundant and prolific, and then it goes back. And then after a period of time, the things are forgotten, you know, there's kind of a drought. We have been in sort of a drought.

• 2:04:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  In a sense, of spiritual wisdom and knowledge. And now, we're at a point where I think the pieces are aligned, where if there's even a small group of people that understand... These traditions and the power of these traditions that can take us back to a clear and deeper understanding of our own origins will have a much better framework for understanding the potential of our future. And it's, it's, it's, it is incumbent upon us now that those of us who are making these connections and realizing this, that we do whatever is necessary to turn this tide that's leading us into Armageddon.

• 2:05:16Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:05:19Jesse Michels?

  There's, there's external knowledge, and then in some ways, external knowledge has a limit, and there's also sort of internal latent or dormant knowledge that can be somewhat activated. And so, how do you mix those two? Because you seem to be a person who's filled with external knowledge, and yet, some of this stuff feels somewhat intuitive as well, and maybe, maybe revelatory?

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  One of my mentors, the late Keith Grichlow, used to say, "The inner and the outer are reflections of one another." And if you keep that in mind, and if you remember that, then you realize that, that the things we do externally can be, can be ritualized, can be symbolized, and have corresponding effects within the inner domain. And vice versa, vice versa. So as we go into exploration of our own consciousness and our own subconsciousness that leads us right back into the entire racial story of our species on this planet, if we recognize that, we can begin to see that all of the external world is really

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  a sacred symbol. And vice versa. See, it works both ways. The inner is a reflection of the outer. So we use the inner to learn more about... The world and how it works and understand that the world is this externalization of our own consciousness.

• 2:06:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  And I think that's the approach and and we have to look at the world as a sacred place.

• 2:06:50Jesse Michels?

  So how do you, because to me, it's partially like some sort of holograph. And I'll I'll talk to like, you know, a boomer crystal healer and they'll say it's it's all, you know, an emanation from what's inside. The only thing that matters is, you know, interiority and being self-aligned. And then I'll speak to, you know, some industrialist and they have no internal spiritual life. And, you know, they're complete materialist reductionist. And neither model is very charismatic to me.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  This is exactly my perspective.

• 2:07:19Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so how do you reconcile those two things?

• 2:07:22Speaker 01

  Well, like where I said, I mean, you you begin to look at at the things in the external world, you begin to look for the sacredness and the symbology of the things in the world around you.

• 2:07:32Jesse Michels?

  Yes, but not everything is a symbol. You're not living

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  Not everything is a symbol, no.

• 2:07:36Jesse Michels?

  In the book, The Alchemist, where everything is like a, I'm listening, you're wearing green and green's my favorite color, so it's a great day, you know, like, that's too much.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  That's too much.

• 2:07:44Jesse Michels?

  But then there's sometimes it does, sometimes you are experiencing a real synchronicity that is some, you know, there's some esoteric underpinning and you're experiencing the esoteric layer and that's a really exciting, almost recognition of some primordial soul knowledge in the real world. And that's crazy.

• 2:08:01Speaker 01

  One of the things that I've been doing recently is I did a, I did a presentation on Halloween to show the sacred origins of Halloween, the symbolical origins. And then I did one on winter solstice, Christmas, and that's the the the deep symbolical connotations of that going back transculturally, way back into the past. I'm going to do another one, Easter. I'm going to do up in Nashville.

• 2:08:28Jesse Michels?

  Rebirth.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  Nashville, am I going to, no, no, no, it's out in Arizona, near Sedona. We're going to be doing Easter, kind of an Easter recognition and coupled with that will be a lot of material on the Holy Grail.

• 2:08:43Jesse Michels?

  And and with Easter, that sort of matches like this tale of Persephone's quest to the underworld.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Yes, very much. Very much. Yeah, the idea of the death and resurrection of the God, of the royal personage, you know, the death and resurrection of the king or the queen.

• 2:09:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, the crucifixion, you know, took place.

• 2:09:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  Easter is a recognition of the crucifixion. The whole crucifixion story is a Christianization of the whole Grail mythos.

• 2:09:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Because it very much, the whole idea of the chalice is that Joseph of Arimathea, who took the body of Christ off the cross, which is all symbolical. And I'm not saying that there wasn't really an actual crucifixion that happened. But even if there was, it doesn't negate the possibility that it was also symbolical. And I think that maybe to understand it, we have to look at it in that bimodal fact that it was both symbolical, that it was a recapitulation of the ancient mystery play, which was the death and resurrection of nature, the death and resurrection of the royal personage, the death and resurrection of the world itself. Right?

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  The death and resurrection of civilization. All of these things on these levels.

• 2:10:02Jesse Michels?

  Last time I was with you, you did a private presentation for me after our on-air conversation, where you presented this whole case for Jesus having not actually died. And you talk about the hyssop as this actual sedative that he almost used to trick the governor at the time, the Roman governor Pilate, who poked him with a stick. And he was sort of like incapacitated, but he was actually alive. And he was sort of resuscitated by these herbs of Joseph of Arimathea. Do you sort of stand by that thesis?

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  Uh, first of all...

• 2:10:39Jesse Michels?

  Am I making you uncomfortable right now?

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  No, no. It was not Pontius Pilate poking him with a stick. It was the centurion with the lance.

• 2:10:48Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it wasn't Pilate?

• 2:10:49Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't Pilate himself.

• 2:10:51Jesse Michels?

  Okay, that makes sense. Pilate was the one who said, "Who are you?" And he said, "I'm the king of the Jews." Or he said, "You said you're the king of the Jews." You said that, I didn't say that.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Right, that's, yes.

• 2:11:00Jesse Michels?

  He was the governor.

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  Pontius Pilate was the governor, yes. Okay, so the centurion went and prodded Jesus to see if there was any response to know if he was still alive. Now, I think what I would rather do is I am planning to put a lot of this out there at some point. Uh, probably early next year. Threads of this have been around for a long time. This is nothing new. It's no, no.

• 2:11:25Jesse Michels?

  Brian Marescu believes this as well. He's the author of The Immortality Key.

• 2:11:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:11:30Jesse Michels?

  And he, he believes that maybe this was some sort of mystery ritual where like, you know, you have the, the guy with the water jug or whatever who's coordinating this.

• 2:11:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:11:39Jesse Michels?

  This whole, the whole Last Supper feels very coordinated, right?

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  Yes, it does.

• 2:11:43Jesse Michels?

  And they're sitting and you know, you have the 12 disciples and then he drinks this, this hissop or whatever, this drink. And it, maybe it's similar to the kekeon in the Eleusinian mystery rituals. Martin Luther King actually wrote a very interesting essay called The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis about, uh, basically, you know, or is about the pagan continuity hypothesis, you know, pagan and, and, and Greek influence on early Christianity.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:12:10Jesse Michels?

  And so like maybe these mystery rituals, you know, took place.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I, I mean, the, the, the archetype of the death and resurrection of the divine king is precedes Christianity by millennia.

• 2:12:25Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  Um, and to me, you know, that's, and again, I'm not going to make any final definitive statements. I think we need to be open to, well, like we talked about earlier, outrageous ideas. And one outrageous idea might be that Jesus didn't die on the cross, like you said, and that there was a lot more to the story going on behind the scenes. And I think that one could make a plausible case for that. Um, just by reference to some of the things you just named. And it's, it's very instructive if you go through, um, the gospels and you pick out the details. You can make a case that there is definitely something going on behind the scenes.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  And this thing was that it was the whole. Ritual was pre-planned for some reason, okay? Now, that what that reason would be, that would be speculative.

• 2:13:22Speaker 02

  There was like an upstairs and a downstairs as well, right? In this house?

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  Yes, the Last Supper was, and of course, you know, then that brings us into the realm of the Grail. Because the chalice from which they all drank at the Last Supper, that is the Grail. And then that was the chalice that Joseph of Arimathea collected the blood of Christ when he was removing him from the cross. And it was sealed in the form of a cyborium and that was transferred to the, to England. And when Joseph of Arimathea arrived in England, he met up with our Virgus, the pagan chieftain,

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  who then granted him 120 hides of land as the sacred precinct where he would establish the first Christian church, according to legend. And so there's a whole story there that that brings the Grail mythos into this whole question. And then, you know, then what happens is it gets convoluted there because we're getting, as soon as we get into the realm of the Grail, now we're in this realm that's very much like trying to make sense out of a dream.

• 2:14:40Speaker 02

  Do you think that Jesus had a bloodline and he had kids?

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  Well, then that's, see, that's one of the hypotheses, that if he did survive, he could have generated a bloodline. And again, there's circumstantial evidence that points in that direction. But we don't have what could qualify, in my mind, as definitive proof.

• 2:15:01Speaker 02

  What's the circumstantial evidence?

• 2:15:03Speaker 01

  Well, traditions like particularly the origin of the Merovingian king line in France.

• 2:15:10Speaker 01

  Possibly, I mean, because that was part of the.

• 2:15:12Jesse Michels?

  The lore was that he escaped to the forest in France, right? With Mary, Mary Magdalene?

• 2:15:18Speaker 01

  I'm not familiar with that.

• 2:15:19Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  Now, Mary Magdalene, according to some traditions, did travel with Joseph of Arimathea, and she disembarked at the place that is now Marseille.

• 2:15:29Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  And, I mean, Marseille is named after Mary.

• 2:15:32Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  That's where it gets its name.

• 2:15:33Jesse Michels?

  And so, so, okay, these bloodlines, so, you know, the kings of France, what other possible, you know, evidence do we have, or just lore, mythology, do we have around this?

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  Well, most of it that I know of is, is mostly like traditions, legends, hearsay, that kind of stuff.

• 2:15:53Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  I don't know, you know, well, there is a possible way that we could determine, or, or, now, that is, gets us to the Shroud of Turin.

• 2:16:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I was just gonna, that's crazy you're bringing that up, I was just gonna ask you about the Shroud of Turin. Can you tell the audience what the Shroud of Turin is?

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  Well, it's a, it's a, appears to be a burial cloth with an image of a man on it, and that man looks like he's been tortured, and all of the wounds are 100% consistent with the wounds described in the Passion, in the, in the Gospels. You know, the, the, the, um, the nails through the wrists, the crown of thorns, the piercing of the side, the whipping of the back, all of that, the holes in the, in the feet. What was interesting about the, the, um, the, uh, shroud is that, you know, it was originally,

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  you know, it first showed up in history with the nephew of, I think it was Geoffrey de Charney, who was the last Grand Master of the Templars.

• 2:17:02Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Jacques de Molay was, but Geoffrey de Charney was his associate.

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  Who, what?

• 2:17:08Jesse Michels?

  They were associates, Jacques de Molay was the last Grand Master of the Templars.

• 2:17:11Speaker 01

  I think, well, yeah, he was the last, well, so, so Geoffrey de Charney was the second.

• 2:17:15Jesse Michels?

  Second to last, yeah.

• 2:17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, got it. Um, so it was his nephew that had the shroud in his possession. And I'm a little vague on how that, it ended up in the, in the, uh... In Turin, but it went through a succession of owners and it finally ended up in Turin. And where it still is is in the repository there.

• 2:17:41Speaker 02

  Wasn't it studied by NASA like a piece of the fabric and it was sort of?

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  Well, it's been studied by a group of scientists several times since they finally.

• 2:17:50Speaker 02

  And they said they debunked it or whatever. They said, you know, so but you have some interesting takes on this, right? About its actual veracity.

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  Yes, I, again, no definitive final proof, but I think we can show where the debunking was actually not a debunking.

• 2:18:07Speaker 02

  How, where?

• 2:18:08Speaker 01

  At least the first, the early ones in the, in the eighties when they first did the, the, um, the analysis. Now, there have been several things that have been done, scientific studies that have been done since that first one that was approved by the Vatican. I'm not up to speed on what the results of those were, but it does appear that they contradicted some of the debunking claims. Um, but going through the debunking claims, I could actually, I think, show you where I think, um, the debunking went wrong. I couldn't do that without preparation. I mean, because I haven't really looked at the Turin shroud thing for at least 10 years. But, um, and I know there's been some additional studies on it, which I haven't followed up

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  on, but I have a very, I have a pretty comprehensive mass of material on the shroud and the testing that was done in the eighties and the early nineties. So maybe sometime we could do a, uh, a, uh, an interview based pretty much on that.

• 2:19:11Speaker 02

  That would be great.

• 2:19:11Speaker 01

  But it, it.

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  But maybe give us a little teaser on, you know, where the conventional debunks were wrong.

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  For one thing, it came in which part of the shroud did they actually test because there were several repair jobs that were done to it. And so you have several pieces of cloth that were much younger than the original piece of cloth. So if you test that. Instead of the original piece of cloth, obviously, you're gonna get a much younger date.

• 2:19:38Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And so why, do you think there was some sort of incentive to debunk this thing? You think there were bad faith actors? And so what is that to kind of?

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  Because whoever's the image was, and of course, the claim is that it was painted on there by an artist. And I kind of don't like to put out vague generalities without getting into the precise specifics, because that's how science works. You can't just say, "Well, this may have happened, that may have happened." You have to actually be precise, and you have to come up with definitive evidence, and lay out your chain of reasoning, and the evidentiary support for that chain of reasoning, which in a casual conversation, obviously, we don't do. Like, if we were gonna, if we were gonna do a discussion about the shroud, I would review all of my notes, and we would have some graphics, some images to look at, and so on.

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  But let me put it this way, I think it boils down to this. If that was not a painting, and I think that we can make a very strong case that it was not painted on there by an artist. If it is some kind of a photographic image, you know it's a negative, right? You knew that. So, if that was taken over on a man wrapped in a shroud, the image of the man in the shroud, even though all of the wounds are consistent with the biblical description of the wounds of Christ, the man in the shroud was not a corpse.

• 2:21:12Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, wow.

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  The man in the shroud was living.

• 2:21:16Jesse Michels?

  How do you know that?

• 2:21:18Speaker 01

  Well, several reasons.

• 2:21:19Speaker 00

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• 2:21:50Speaker 01

  The main reason is this. This is how the arms were folded, right? Now, if you've got a corpse laying supine, horizontal, and there's no heartbeat, all of the blood pools up in the bottom of the body. It doesn't flow out, right? The highest points of the wrists, blood has been flowing out. The feet, the blood is flowing. You can tell from the shroud that the blood from the wounds was flowing, which means that the heart was pumping, which means that the individual was not a corpse, but a living body.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  There's also evidence in the original Greek of the scriptural evidence itself, in the words that are being used to describe. And I'm not going to get into that right now, but I would want to have those words in front of me and it show you then the meaning of these words that are used, which imply, again, the same thing, that this was a living being, a living man. But in the Christianized version, Joseph of Arimathea took the grail cup, which was the cup used at the Last Supper, right, by Christ and the disciples, and from the wound in Christ's side, he caught the blood in the water issuing forth,

• 2:23:19Speaker 01

  sealed that into, as a cyboreum, with a cover on it. And then, according to legend, transported that to England, where he met up with the pagan chieftain Arviragas, who bequeathed to Joseph and his 12 followers or disciples 120 hides of land. And a hide of land is 120 acres, traditionally in Britain. And so, and that was established to be the sacred precinct.

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  At the center of the sacred precinct, again according to legend, a small circular church was built that was just under forty feet in diameter. And it was built out of wattles, which were sort of, um, almost like woody vines or something. So it was built, and that chapel was maintained for a long time and then eventually fell into ruin and was replaced by another circular chapel that maintained the dimensions of the original. And that eventually decayed and then in the 10th century, I believe, it was an abbey was built there where the width of the abbey was the same as the diameter of the original circular chapel.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  That fell into ruin and it was replaced by Glastonbury Abbey. There was a chapel built on the, uh, west end of, of, uh, Glastonbury Abbey, dedicated to Saint Mary. Now whether that was Mary Magdalene or the Virgin Mary, could be either one. It's called Saint Mary's Chapel. Its width of thirty-nine point six feet, it is said, preserves the diameter of the original chapel. Now, the twelve hides of a hundred and twenty acres each, that meant that the sacred precinct was one thousand four hundred and forty acres. And one thousand four hundred and forty is the, one of the key

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  numbers in the whole sacred canon of numerical cosmology. You know, there was a hundred and forty-four cubits in the wall, the circular wall around the holy city. There was a hundred and forty-four thousand who are the redeemed of the earth, which I take to be-

• 2:25:39Jesse Michels?

  Isn't that the latitude of the pyramids too?

• 2:25:42Speaker 01

  I think the latitude of the pyramids is, um, close to thirty degrees.

• 2:25:48Jesse Michels?

  Okay, never mind.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, so I think that the hundred and forty-four thousand could refer to the hundred and forty-four thousand that are gonna save this planet from self-destruction. If we can get a hundred and forty-four thousand of us that are committed to- To that work, which is the great part of the great work of our time. We will be able to have a future. Without being sent back to the dark ages and struggling to survive for another few millennia.

• 2:26:22Jesse Michels?

  Let's do it, man.

• 2:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:24Jesse Michels?

  You'll be in that. So, I want to shift gears to Atlantis. The story of Atlantis, uh, came from Solon.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:32Jesse Michels?

  Uh, who was Plato's great uncle, is that right, or great grandfather?

• 2:26:37Speaker 01

  I think great uncle. I think in the lineage, uh, I believe it was, um, Solon to Dropedus, to Critias the elder, to Critias the younger, who then presented the story at the Socratic Forum in Athens.

• 2:26:51Jesse Michels?

  And so, and Solon got it from Egyptian priests.

• 2:26:55Speaker 01

  Sontius, I think, was the name. Was it Crantor? Who gave the name? I don't remember, but, yeah.

• 2:27:02Jesse Michels?

  And there's a guy, uh, named Jimmy Corsetti, who, um, was just on Rogan. And he's, and you know Jimmy.

• 2:27:10Speaker 01

  Met him, haven't met him personally, but we've had some great interaction over, um, you know, digital.

• 2:27:17Jesse Michels?

  Digital things.

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:19Jesse Michels?

  And so he's presented a theory that, uh, maybe Atlantis existed in the, the Rishat territory.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  Of Mauritania.

• 2:27:26Jesse Michels?

  Of Mauritania in Africa. And you, I know, I've talked to you about this many times for, for years, have a, a different theory about maybe, uh, an area in the mid-Atlantic ridge that is currently underwater.

• 2:27:40Speaker 01

  And I, I still hold to that, and I, you know, I've looked at Jimmy's stuff, and here's what I would say about Jimmy's stuff, is that he's done some really interesting work there with the recat structure. There are some, some, some parallels that are quite striking. However, when you break it down and take Plato's detailed accounts, I don't think it applies to the recat structure. And in my presentation that I've done, um, again, that people can get online, I forgot what we're charging for it. It's pretty affordable, but they can download like an eight or nine hour, three, two-part, three-part lecture. Where I break it all down, and I do devote like probably an hour anyway to an analysis of the recat, reshat, structure. I think it's recat.

• 2:28:23Speaker 01

  But, um, what I do say is that, according to, again, in my lecture, what I do is I go, okay, what if we just took Plato's details literally?

• 2:28:37Speaker 01

  Do they hold up under what we now know about oceanography, geology, marine geology, astronomy, geography, et cetera? Does it hold up? Is there a consistency there? And I've read a lot of books on Atlantis and the many places it's been proposed. And in every single case, you have to change the details of Plato's account. Let's say that you accept the island of Terra and the Santorini eruption was the story behind Atlantis. Well, this happened 900 years before Plato, so the assumption is as well Plato made a mistake by a whole order of magnitude in dating.

• 2:29:21Speaker 01

  You have to change something. You know, it's been proposed to be Southern England, Cuba, Turkey, Antarctica, the list goes on and on.

• 2:29:34Jesse Michels?

  North America.

• 2:29:35Speaker 01

  North America, yes.

• 2:29:36Jesse Michels?

  But Graham Hancock sort of implied that in America before.

• 2:29:40Speaker 01

  Well, here's what I would say. If we take Plato's account as being legitimate to some extent, he's describing a mid-Atlantic island-based empire with sophisticated maritime and navigational skills. Well, right there, you have the possibility of there being colonies all over the damn place. Northwestern Africa would seem like a very obvious place to have outliers, have colonies.

• 2:30:17Jesse Michels?

  But why do you think, why is it your base case that it is there in the center of the Atlantic and not?

• 2:30:24Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I get, yeah, and that's why it took me eight or nine hours to explain.

• 2:30:31Jesse Michels?

  Turn that into two minutes, Randall.

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  Because during an Ice Age world, that was one of the most favorable places on the planet for a civilization to evolve. That's why, for many reasons. But, you know, our good friend, our dear friend, Rob Reinhardt, that recently visited Atlantis, who, you know, I was hoping maybe we could persuade him to talk a little bit about, but I don't think he wants to, so we're not going to go impose upon Rob at this time.

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  What we'll do is we'll just talk about him as if he wasn't sitting right over there.

• 2:31:09Jesse Michels?

  I like that, let's do it.

• 2:31:12Jesse Michels?

  I actually don't like Rob.

• 2:31:14Speaker 01

  You don't?

• 2:31:15Jesse Michels?

  Oh shit.

• 2:31:20Speaker 01

  So anyways, I was really excited to hear that our mutual friend Rob recently visited the Azores.

• 2:31:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:29Speaker 01

  And I think the implication of that is Rob is now going to be integral to this Azores expedition, Azores tour that has kind of been sort of germinating for a couple of years now.

• 2:31:45Jesse Michels?

  Let's go.

• 2:31:45Speaker 01

  Is that possible, Rob? Alright, he's not going to speak, but he, everybody, he is nodding his head.

• 2:31:51Jesse Michels?

  He's nodding his head. Well, yeah, we should, we should, I would love to get, we should do a follow-up where we go to the Azores. That sounds great.

• 2:31:57Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:31:58Jesse Michels?

  So it was sort of, climate-wise, it was just optimal? That's the reason that you think it's there? Are there any other reasons?

• 2:32:03Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, multiple reasons. It was...

• 2:32:05Jesse Michels?

  So that's number one. Give me the super high-level summary, I know it's annoying because you have so many facts in your head. Super high-level, it is, from a climate perspective, it's optimal. What else? Number one, number two.

• 2:32:17Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, okay, so what I talk about in the, in the, in the eight or nine hours is how isostatic adjustment shows that, that a large port, that, that what we're seeing now, those islands are the tops of mountains. Sunk-in mountains.

• 2:32:33Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:32:34Speaker 01

  And I get into the, I get into the evidence for that. I mean, I show that, you know, the dredging of the ocean floor, the core samples, the findings, the, of submerged shorelines and things. There's a very strong case.

• 2:32:48Jesse Michels?

  Because the map looked entirely different.

• 2:32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:50Jesse Michels?

  It's like the map of Pyrenees where you have sort of tropical parts of Antarctica that are shown, you know, at the top.

• 2:32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. The Orontius Finnis that shows parts of Antarctica. Yeah, I mean, and Graham makes the case that's never been refuted, which is that the, this knowledge of geography comes from some past...

• 2:33:13Speaker 01

  Culture that had had the ability to navigate the world.

• 2:33:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so optimal climate for living, number one. Number two.

• 2:33:22Speaker 01

  Well, now you've got access because you're strategically poised. Where you've got access to Africa, Europe, North America and South America.

• 2:33:31Jesse Michels?

  So all the land masses.

• 2:33:32Speaker 01

  So now if you're interacting with people, resources, all of these kinds of things, you're strategically placed where you've got fairly regular access. I mean, literally, it took what Columbus six weeks to sail.

• 2:33:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:48Speaker 01

  Right? That means that if you're poised on a large island or island complex in the mid-Atlantic, you're three weeks of sailing to Africa and Europe, three weeks of sailing to North and South America.

• 2:34:01Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:34:01Speaker 01

  And now you've got access to all of those resources.

• 2:34:05Jesse Michels?

  It's pretty awesome.

• 2:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. It seems to me that for multiple reasons, that would have been an ideal place for a civilization to evolve when sea levels were lowered by 400 feet and the mid-Atlantic ridge was probably 1,000 to 2,000 feet higher than it is now.

• 2:34:23Jesse Michels?

  A lot of esoteric traditions talk about involution as opposed to evolution. And there are rumors that maybe in the past, in past civilizations, hominids have been giant and we've found sort of possibly giant bones. Graham Hancock has talked about this.

• 2:34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:42Jesse Michels?

  What say you?

• 2:34:44Speaker 01

  Well, I would say that I've never seen a giant skeleton myself, but I've taken some pretty deep dives into some of the actually archival stuff. You know, the Emory Library, where I used to do a lot of research, has an incredible collection of 19th century writings, state archives and records of, you know, early archaeology bureau of the American Ethnological Society, the early Smithsonian papers.

• 2:35:13Speaker 01

  There's an incredible wealth of stuff in there. And in fact, in one of my presentations, which I've not yet presented in a public forum, I pulled a lot of that stuff together. The excavations particularly associated with the monumental earthworks, giant skeletons. Those accounts are repeated over and over and over again. That in the excavation, there's a giant skeleton dug up, sometimes seven feet, sometimes eight, sometimes even nine feet in height. Now, these accounts, of course, the skeptics say, oh, these were just hoaxes and made up. You know, yeah, maybe in some cases, yes.

• 2:35:52Speaker 01

  But look, there was no internet, so for somebody to get, you know, 10,000 likes if they went and said that they discovered a, you know, it's going to be Dr. So-and-so and Reverend So-and-so that's out there excavating with a group of local townspeople witnessing the excavation and they dig up an eight-foot skeleton. I'm just not buying that you can just dismiss that and throw it out of hand with a hoax.

• 2:36:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, if you think about the trajectory of mankind now, it feels like we're moving from, you know, if we were wolves in the past, we're turning into dogs and we're being domesticated.

• 2:36:29Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 2:36:30Jesse Michels?

  The sperm count or testosterone, so on a human kind of body hormonal level and then probably size of body as well. It's like this has become vestigial, we're not hunter-gatherers anymore. It's not being selected for anymore. And so, do you think, yeah, I mean, you think about sort of these possible large hominid creatures in the past, and then there are a lot of traditions that talk about demigods, Titans, you know, in the Book of Enoch, you had the watchers that, you know, mated with mankind.

• 2:36:59Speaker 01

  There were giants in the earth in those days.

• 2:37:01Jesse Michels?

  Giants in the earth. Do you ascribe to possibly, you know, any of the theories that ancient alien astronauts might have come down, comated with mankind? And we are their descendants?

• 2:37:15Speaker 01

  That's kind of a sticky question.

• 2:37:19Jesse Michels?

  Well, let me just say, I think about every human and there's something very depraved about them. You know, it's like we're very, we're very ape-like in some ways and then we do have sort of this divine spark in other ways. We feel wholly separate from the rest of the animal kingdom and yet also sort of a part of it. And so I've wondered about, you know, this theory is a possible way to explain.

• 2:37:40Speaker 01

  Perhaps, you know, I'm very open-minded. I certainly don't sit here and claim I've got final answers on all of this stuff. I, you know, I don't know if I can't even say that I wish I did because half the fun of life is figuring this stuff out. The journey of discovery, the mystery.

• 2:37:59Speaker 01

  But I do think that as you go along and you, you, you think about this, you study, you learn, you meditate, you contemplate, you do discover answers to some of the questions. You know, there are, there are mysteries and then there are greater mysteries and lesser mysteries. The ultimate mystery, I don't know. I don't, you know, I, I tend to be agnostic about that. I will say in a more pragmatic sense though, that when we go back to the late Ice Age, when we go back to the late Pleistocene, I mean, my God, look, the Imperial Mammoth stood 16 feet tall at the shoulder. The American Pleistocene lion was the size of a horse, you know.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  Glyptodonts were armadillos the size of Volkswagen Beetle cars of golf carts, you know. I mean, the list goes on. The, the, the giant cave bear, the Ursus spalius, the bear that stood six feet tall at the shoulder and 12 feet tall when it stood up on its hind legs. They were giants, right? If there were all of these giants, the Irish elk with 10 and 12 foot antler spans, for Christ sakes, eight foot tall at the shoulder, can you imagine encountering one of those things? Talk about an impressive beast there. But if you had all of these mammalian megafauna oversized compared to today, why not people?

• 2:39:20Jesse Michels?

  Well, also, yeah, how would you survive in that context if you weren't mega-sized?

• 2:39:23Speaker 01

  You know, you had to be awful smart.

• 2:39:25Jesse Michels?

  You had to be awful smart. And then you have all this megalithic architecture that, you know, 10, 20, 30 ton blocks.

• 2:39:30Speaker 01

  And, and, and I think that that gets us into the technological discussion and. Because of the things that I've been learning lately, I think I'm honing in on what that technology was that they were using. And we could do another discussion on that. It would to attempt to do that now would be premature. Because there's still holes in my game and I don't necessarily have all the pieces together. But my instincts tell me that, yeah, we have to be looking at these plasmoid technologies could provide the answer to things like levitation of large stones.

• 2:40:05Jesse Michels?

  It's interesting. I mean, an area I've always been interested in is the study of parapsychology, which is, you know, the idea that there's some sort of mind over matter effect. And to be honest, it's a very poorly assembled group of people and work and it's often not rigorous. And it was definitely marginalized and it was chronically sort of underfunded and didn't really go anywhere. And there were sort of scaling problems to it. It was hard to sort of instrumentalize. And yet, if you look at some of those, you know, albeit somewhat small scale studies, I'm convinced, if you look at the actual data, that there is a weak mind over matter effect.

• 2:40:46Jesse Michels?

  And the ability to cultivate that maybe, you know, is that's an interesting question. Can that be cultivated? And there are biblical references to things like that. You know, maybe Jesus was the ultimate parapsychology practitioner.

• 2:41:03Speaker 01

  Have you ever had a, what you would think of as a parapsychological experience?

• 2:41:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I have.

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  Something you talk about, or?

• 2:41:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I've had many.

• 2:41:15Speaker 01

  I haven't had many, I've had a few.

• 2:41:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, parapsychological, I mean, I've seen UFOs. So I don't know if that's paraps... I think that's...

• 2:41:26Speaker 01

  It could be.

• 2:41:27Jesse Michels?

  I think...

• 2:41:28Speaker 01

  On one level, maybe there is a parapsychological component to the UFO phenomenon.

• 2:41:32Jesse Michels?

  I think there absolutely is. But then, as far as like seeing, you know, something levitate or something, you know, like, you know, engaging in telekinetic powers or... I've had some weird, okay, yes, the parapsychological stuff I've experienced is calling things very early, like predicting things in bizarre ways. Not even coming from my conscious intellectual mind, but it's like it gets zapped into me and I I experienced like a premonition or something, which I think a lot of people have experienced.

• 2:42:02Speaker 01

  Yes, I have too. I've had a few things that have been, you know, you could dismiss them as coincidence. I think when I was about nineteen, eighteen or nineteen, my best friend from high school that I worked with and his older brother were out somewhere and I was home sleeping and I had this intense dream that they were in trouble and got busted. To the point where it woke me up and it was about 2:00 AM. And the next morning I go to call my friend and I couldn't get a hold of him and it turns out that at 2:00 AM him and his brother got busted for dope and they were sitting in jail. Now how the hell, that always struck me. That was bizarre.

• 2:42:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:46Speaker 01

  That I actually had this dream.

• 2:42:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:48Speaker 01

  It woke me up and then I oh, that was just a dream. I went back to sleep and then the next day I find out that literally right around the time I had that dream and woke up, they had gotten pulled over and got busted for dope.

• 2:43:02Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's interesting. Scientists are now saying that quantum computers can send information back in time and we know that there's temporal non-locality and entanglement. You know, if you have photon A and photon B, if you measure photon A in the future, it affects photon B in the past. Which is pretty awesome and interesting. And so maybe, you know, there's this concept of the long body and, you know, we experience anamnesis when we're ported into the limited prism of our physical body. And maybe we can glitch into the long body and access our almost, it's almost like pre-memory, our future cognitive knowledge, our future state

• 2:43:46Jesse Michels?

  through some sort of quantum system.

• 2:43:50Jesse Michels?

  Which is very interesting and you know, people have tried to find, you know, literal, physical analogs or physical explanations for what could be that quantum sensor. And there's a guy named Stuart Hameroff who thinks that it's the microtubules in the brain. And I don't know if that's exactly right, but that could explain some of this sort of the premonition stuff.

• 2:44:10Speaker 01

  I, I think that's, I, I would agree with that, you know.

• 2:44:14Jesse Michels?

  To me, it's obvious that the human brain and body is not a classical computer.

• 2:44:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:44:18Jesse Michels?

  And people like Turing who've suggested that in the past, I think you're sending people into a cul-de-sac with this whole AI thing.

• 2:44:25Speaker 01

  This leads me into, you know, the whole concept of quantum entanglement, that somehow there is this, something that, you know, there's some level that transcends time and space as we know it. And interestingly, this seems to be one of the implications that is coming out of plasma physics. When you're dealing with, you know, things on the atomic and subatomic level. And this is something I'm, you know, very much in the infancy of learning about. But you said, I showed you the slideshow that I put there, 240 slides over the last three months to help me, well, it's doing two things.

• 2:45:03Speaker 01

  One, it's, it served to, for me to learn about the system, the methodology, the philosophy, the ideas. But it's also going to be used to present by, by the leading scientists of this system to, to various entities around the world that have already shown an interest in implementing the technology.

• 2:45:28Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that the military industrial complex is hiding any knowledge around fundamental parapsychology?

• 2:45:36Speaker 01

  Probably, probably.

• 2:45:38Jesse Michels?

  The reason I ask is because Ben Rich, who was the head of Lockheed Skunk Works on his deathbed, said, "We have the, the ability to go to the stars whenever we want, and we've built it." And a journalist asked him, "Well, how do we do that?" And he goes, "Well, have you heard of ESP?" And the journalist goes, "Yes." And then he goes, "Well, that's how." And then there's a guy named Bob John, who was a plasma physicist, who worked at Boeing, who then went on to run the Princeton pair lab, the parapsychology lab. And so I think about that, you know, connection as well, you know, where he's working at Boeing and then he, and on plasma, and then he goes on to work on sort of parapsychology. And I wonder if they're...

• 2:46:20Jesse Michels?

  Is an interesting connection there and I think about the modern UFO story and it's usually trying to push people away from thinking about parapsychology and towards more kind of nuts and bolts, materialist, reductionist explanations of how the craft works. And in fact, a lot of people say when the crafts crash, there's nothing inside the craft. So, there must be an interface between the mind of the occupants of the craft and the craft itself. And so it has to be somewhat parapsychological from that perspective. I think it's parapsychological from the viewer's perspective of the craft as well. And it feels like that's the thing that's been stigmatized and marginalized.

• 2:47:02Jesse Michels?

  You know, you don't want people thinking about parapsychology, you'd rather them think about, you know, speed of light limits and physics.

• 2:47:11Speaker 01

  Right. Which takes us into a realm that's probably beyond our timeframe tonight.

• 2:47:21Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Well, let's eat, because we're gonna miss dinner and we gotta go to your restaurant.

• 2:47:26Speaker 01

  And I'm getting hungry.

• 2:47:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:28Speaker 01

  I've worked up an appetite.

• 2:47:29Jesse Michels?

  Same, man. Yeah. Randall Carlson.

• 2:47:32Speaker 01

  Jesse Michaels.

• 2:47:33Jesse Michels?

  This is the best opening of all time, man. It's an honor to speak with you. I consider you a really good friend at this point. We always have amazing phone conversations.

• 2:47:44Speaker 01

  We do. I think, I consider you a good friend as well.

• 2:47:46Jesse Michels?

  Well, thanks, man. We need more people like you in the world. Two years ago, I went to Decatur, Atlanta, and we did an interview. We did a sit-down and I felt like I was kind of low-energy and we never put it out, but it was like this amazing two-hour thing. And a lot of it was around how the moon is possibly this anomalous, like, alien spacecraft.

• 2:48:05Speaker 01

  Well, now you're giving away secrets, but it's okay, she's an insider.

• 2:48:09Jesse Michels?

  So, we were talking about how the moon might be this anomalous, you know, object because it's 1/400ths the size of the Earth, but it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the Sun. The conventional explanation for how it formed, that an asteroid hit the Earth and it formed this perfect, you know, sphere, you never see the dark side, sort of just rotates around us. And then there are all these sort of ancient myths that involve a pre-moon period, right? And the moon actually kind of settled the tides or whatever, pre-younger, driest period. So I, and then you've found some really interesting anomalies when it comes to the moon as well, right?

• 2:48:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I don't necessarily think that there is a record of humans witnessing a time when there was no moon. There could have been a time that there was no moon if we accept the capture theory, which was one of the three dominant theories up until the impact theory gained dominance. We had the capture theory, the sister theory, and the daughter theory. Those were the three. All three of them have problems, but the capture theory has, the idea there is, you know, you have to somehow, it's coming from somewhere else and it gets trapped into this orbit around the Earth.

• 2:49:26Speaker 01

  But the capture window is so small, you know, it'd be almost like we're trying to shoot a dime that's a mile away with a rifle, something like that. I mean, it's, the capture window is extremely small and it's because of the mathematical problems that that theory has not gained much credibility. But what they did is they kind of combined several theories that you had in order to get the chemical ratios and the isotopic ratios and the differences between the moon and the Earth's composition and the similarities, that was essentially the problem. So you had to concoct up this theory that it was hit by a large object, maybe as big

• 2:50:07Speaker 01

  as Mars, and that would have caused this spewing out into space of all of this debris. And then eventually this debris would have formed a ring around the Earth and then it would have consolidated into the moon that we see today. I have seen, and I'm certainly not prepared to get into the technicalities of it, but I've seen some pretty exhaustive treatments of the mathematics of just that. And it's extremely challenging to get from a ring of debris around the earth to the moon that we see today.

• 2:50:44Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:50:44Speaker 01

  It's one thing to say, okay, here's a big impact, stuff gets thrown out, forms a ring. Okay, but now to get to from that ring to the moon that we have today with all of its unique features, that gets problematic.

• 2:50:59Jesse Michels?

  So how do we explain, because it's amazing, you know, when you look into your work and Robert Bival's work, Graham Hancock, all these, all these people, Robert Shock, John Anthony West, it seems very apparent that you have all this archaeology that's far older than we date it to, and that maybe, you know, the, the pyramids, for example, are much older than, than we think, maybe, you know, the Sphinx at Giza, actually, there's limestone damp, water damage on it, there's erosion on it, which would imply, you know, not this like desert, you know, temperature. And so what do you think about when they were built? Like, is there, is there sort of a positive version of that theory?

• 2:51:43Jesse Michels?

  Because I think what I find frustrating is it's clear, the negative thing is clear. It's clear that archaeology is wrong and that our history is much older than meets the eye, but can we actually date any of these things? Obviously, you can't date stone, but can we approximate when these things were built? And what society built them?

• 2:52:00Speaker 01

  Well, one thing you can do, though, with stone is you can use luminescence dating, which I'm not going to try to get into a technical explanation of how that works. But basically, if you have a piece of stone, like, let's say, in, in the Sphinx, you've got this body of the Sphinx, and then you've got this, it's literally was a quarry around it, right? Have you been there?

• 2:52:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:52:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so you know then that the Sphinx is actually, the body of the Sphinx is below the grade of the, of the, of the ground level.

• 2:52:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:31Speaker 01

  The head is above, but if you look at those walls, right? So before those stones were quarried, that was all underground, and it was, it was not accessible by cosmic ray bombardment. However, once you've removed the rocks and exposed it to the air...

• 2:52:51Speaker 01

  To the sun, to the air, to whatever. Now, the cosmic ray bombardment causes spallation, which creates isotopes, which then can be, by counting the isotopes, you can date it. And I'm not going to try to explain it all without a little bit of having prepared myself for it. But optically stimulated luminescence, you can date how long a stone has been exposed to the environment.

• 2:53:21Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting.

• 2:53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I don't know why nobody is really

• 2:53:25Jesse Michels?

  So have we dated any of these things?

• 2:53:27Speaker 01

  Not that I know of.

• 2:53:29Jesse Michels?

  Well, why don't we do that? We have to figure that out. There is some sort of method that allows us to date. Because I think where, you know, I love all the people I just mentioned, but like where you can poke holes with Graham Hancock is, or any of these people's work is, it's clear these things are older, but when can you date them to? And when exactly where they built? And if he's trying to win in his arguments against, you know, the Ministry of Culture and Hawas and stuff, then like, it's very important that, you know, they have sort of smoking gun proof. And if you can get that smoking gun proof, it'd be great.

• 2:54:04Speaker 01

  Like, let's take the Sphinx, for example. I've been there, I've seen it. I've studied rock weathering. I've studied limestone weathering in the field. I'm convinced that it is water erosion. Well, then, what you have to do is turn to other fields of science to determine when there would have been enough water to do the erosion. The erosion, see, the Sphinx itself, the body of the Sphinx has been subjected to these restoration campaigns. So now there is, you know, are you looking at a original piece of the Sphinx? Or are you looking at a later part of a restoration campaign? You dispel all of that when you're looking at the Sphinx ditch, right?

• 2:54:46Speaker 01

  Because nobody's done a restoration campaign against that west wall of the Sphinx ditch. So what you've got there is pretty much the pristine erosion that happened after those blocks were removed, right? And those blocks were removed using your, I imagine, typical, you know, separation trenches, cutting them loose, moving them out. And typically, if you look at a At a quarry wall that has been even modern, that uses modern technologies and industrial processes to remove the box, you'll have this kind of stepped profile.

• 2:55:26Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of old kingdom quarries, limestone quarries along the Nile that are supposedly about the same age as the Sphinx. But you can look at the walls of them and you can literally pick out the chisel marks in the walls, the pick marks. And in the Sphinx ditch, you would assume that would be there, but there are places where the surface profile has been eroded back over two feet. So you've had two feet of limestone material removed.

• 2:56:05Speaker 01

  Now, we go to another scientific discipline and we can look at climate change in Egypt and we can tell, for example, not we, but the scientists that have been studying it can tell when there was like lots of rainfall in Egypt. And there was, this has been documented independently by numerous researchers that there was copious rainfall during the transition out of the Ice Age. And freshwater mussels and other remnants of animals that live in the Nile have been

• 2:56:43Speaker 01

  found 120 to 150 feet above the present day floodplain of the Nile. So what that means is, is that that water, if it's 120 to 150 feet above the modern floodplain, would easily submerge the Sphinx underwater. Now, secondly, if you go to the east, back up, go to the west, you're looking at an upslope gradient. There's evidence of massive hydraulic movements of water across that, which would have also submerged the Giza Plateau. Now, the dating of when that occurred is usually given as around 12,000 years.

• 2:57:22Speaker 01

  So I was already aware of that dating when I first encountered the work of John Anthony West. The late John Anthony West, who was basing his work upon an insight that he got from Schwalder de Lubitsch, who first proposed that the Sphinx was water-eroded, and therefore had to be much older than Old Kingdom Egypt because it's been desert there since Old Kingdom Egypt. And so what I did is I undertook studies of limestone erosion under all kinds of different environmental and energetic circumstances to try to determine various scenarios of

• 2:58:06Speaker 01

  how you, you know, the erosion of the Sphinx and the ditch, the quarry. I primarily focused on the quarry walls rather than the ditch itself, for the reasons I explained just a minute ago. And what I came up with was pretty amazing because, for example, gravestones have been, those are really useful for determining erosion rates of different kinds of rock. There are many, many gravestones that were like, see, the thing is, is when you put that gravestone into the ground, and it's the date of the person that died, well, that's the date at which that gravestone was now, so if you had it 1850, somebody who died,

• 2:58:50Speaker 01

  I live next to a cemetery that has pre-civil war dates in it. And you can look at some of those gravestones, and they're very eroded. Some of them, you can't even read the inscriptions on them anymore. But, so the idea is that if you have a gravestone, you put it in the ground, that date of death on that gravestone is going to be pretty much the date that that gravestone was now set out there and exposed. So, you're okay, well, if this was 1850, or 1870, whatever, you now can know how long this has been sitting in the environment subjected to the rain and the wind and the weathering. So that's one way you study. The other way is there's, there have been like on limestone cliffs

• 2:59:34Speaker 01

  that are next to a highly energetic intertidal zone where the surf, like you see out there, is washing up against the cliff. Okay, so let's say that, so here's what some researchers have done. They've come in, they've drilled a hole into the side of the cliff. And they've inserted a metal tenon into that hole, measured very, very carefully how much of that tenon is exposed out of the limestone cliff. And then have come back 10, 20, 30 years later and to see how much that the cliff face has recessed backwards.

• 3:00:15Speaker 01

  And they can now get a recessional rate, an erosional rate. Another thing, study that was done is like they took one cube of freshly cut limestone and they put it on the roof of the Smithsonian Institution and then began to monitor its erosion over many decades. So now you've got a perfectly cut cube with square corners, right? Now you come back in 10 years, what are you going to notice? Well, first thing you're going to notice is that the sharp corners are becoming rounded off, right? That's the first thing that starts going.

• 3:00:52Speaker 01

  They become more and more round and you can now estimate how much material has been removed in that particular environment. So now, in the surf with you've got the, say, I remember one study, what it was, was it was sort of a collapse of rock into the ocean and it exposed this freshly cut vertical rock face. So they came in there and they drilled that hole, they put the metal tenon and they started monitoring over, literally over decades. And was determining, okay, here comes the rushing surf pounding against it, how quickly does that limestone erode back? Then another study was-

• 3:01:35Jesse Michels?

  All right, I think we're good. I mean, Randall, I don't think anybody was expecting that level of thoroughness to my answer. I almost wanted to let you keep going because you listed five studies about water damage on limestone and I'm incredibly impressed. Can I just name one other piece of evidence?

• 3:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01:54Jesse Michels?

  If you look astronomically, you have the Vernal Equinox, Leo at the time, the body of the Sphinx is a lion.

• 3:01:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:02:00Jesse Michels?

  And it seems like it was sort of retrofitted with this pharaonic headdress.

• 3:02:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:02:05Jesse Michels?

  And you have the book Hamlet's Mill, which talk about a lot of kind of ancient architecture aligning up kind of astronomically in these really amazing ways. And this is just probably another example, right?

• 3:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think you could go back, well, I think didn't Bival and Hancock do sort of a dating based upon the fact of when the vernal equinox sunrise would have been, when the Sphinx would have been looking directly at that?

• 3:02:32Jesse Michels?

  I think it would have been around that time, yeah. Because around, I think, 12,000 B.C. or 13,500 B.C.

• 3:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're right, right, when it was...

• 3:02:40Jesse Michels?

  I think it was 10,500 B.C. specifically.

• 3:02:42Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 3:02:43Jesse Michels?

  When the procession shifted.

• 3:02:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:02:45Jesse Michels?

  It's a 26,000-year cycle and true north changes because the earth, you know...

• 3:02:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02:49Jesse Michels?

  ...orbits on a wobble and, yeah.

• 3:02:53Speaker 01

  And so the vernal equinox is now moving out of Virgo into Leo.

• 3:02:59Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:03:00Speaker 01

  So now you would have had the Sphinx and beyond the Sphinx, you would have had the profile of the lion.

• 3:03:08Jesse Michels?

  So when I speak to Graham Hancock, he says, you know, I don't think that a lot of this ancient architecture, you know, for example, he says that the pyramid was not a tomb and that this idea that it just enshrined, you know, this death chamber for the king and the queen and you have the king's shaft and the queen's shaft is, he doesn't believe that. He thinks that it's almost this portal to another world. And it's interesting, right, that the king's shaft lines up with Osiris, the queen's shaft lines up with Sirius, I believe, and then you have this just overall mapping to Orion's belt at the time. And then you have a lot of other astronomical alignment when it comes to architecture across the ancient world, whether it be, you know, the Aztecs or certain architecture we've

• 3:03:53Jesse Michels?

  found in Cambodia. So what do you think these, and they include a lot of the same symbology, geometric patterns, and just building techniques, it seems. What do you think the pyramids, just as an example, were actually built for? What do you think their purpose was? You have the Christopher Dunn theory, you know, he went on Joe Rogan saying it was like this, you know, power generator, you know, you have all sorts of theories, you know, is it this portal to the afterlife? What do you believe?

• 3:04:24Speaker 01

  Well, I don't have any really final beliefs on it. I'm still learning. You know, when I had we had like a two and a half, three hour coaching session with Bob Green here yesterday. And we got into that. And I've got notes and I've got a recording of it. And he's going to give me his slides. He's got a whole theory on it, which I could not at this moment recapitulate. But next time we talk, I will have digested it. I will have followed up the various leads. I've got a list of papers to read. I do think, I do think that it had something to do with the

• 3:05:07Speaker 01

  generation of some kind of energy. And if I had to pick an energy, I would say plasma energy.

• 3:05:12Jesse Michels?

  Why are you and Graham Hancock both so high conviction in the impact hypothesis? This idea that a comet from the torrid meteor stream, maybe there was some sort of airburst event. And it wiped out civilization on Earth. There are other theories that the magnetosphere of the Earth weakened. There was, you know, maybe heightened solar activity. There was some sort of, you know, solar flare or, you know, maybe a calamitous volcano. There are various theories. What gives you conviction in the airburst hypothesis?

• 3:05:44Speaker 01

  First of all, the proxy evidence is now overwhelming. You know, the idea was proposed, I proposed, I have it on record, I gave five lectures at Warren Wilson College in 1995, I believe it was, where I basically talked about the Younger Dryas, the mass extinctions, the rapid climate change. And I say, in my mind, the most likely trigger has got to be impacts of something from space. And I proposed a possible multiple impacts over the great ice sheets as being the trigger. Well, then in 2007, Richard Firestone and Alan West and a number of others came out with a paper, George Howard,

• 3:06:28Speaker 01

  came out with a paper proposing exactly that. They didn't propose that it was the torrid or connected with the torrids. That came a little bit later. I think it was from Bill Napier over in the Astrophysical Observatory in England who first proposed it could have been the The the torrids, but there is a mountain of evidence now in terms of proxies. By proxies, we mean iridium spike, there's a platinum sprite spike. There have been nano diamonds found, copious nano diamonds, microspherules that would have

• 3:07:11Speaker 01

  taken between 2 and 3,000 degrees centigrade to to create magnetic grains, multiple proxies of that are associated with these high-energy, hypervelocity impact events. That's what's pretty much convinced me because you now have like eight or 10 independent teams that have documented cosmic signatures at the Lower Younger Dryas boundary. Now, I think that there's an abundance of-

• 3:07:43Jesse Michels?

  What would an example of a cosmic signature be?

• 3:07:46Speaker 01

  Oh, well, a cosmic signature would be you excavate a core, ice core from Greenland, and then you discover that there is a 12,900-year layer of glacial ice that has a spike of iridium in it hundreds of times greater than the background. Knowing that iridium is deposited on Earth by hypervelocity impacts, that would be an example. Another example would be finding nano diamond layers. The black mat layer, which I've visited about three or four quarries now where you can see the black mat layer exposed.

• 3:08:27Speaker 01

  And in that black mat layer, you've got typically at the bottom of it, you've got abundant nano diamonds. And these nano diamonds can only form under extreme regimes of of pressure and heat. And they're being found all over the world now.

• 3:08:45Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:08:46Speaker 01

  Even in Antarctica.

• 3:08:47Jesse Michels?

  Pretty incredible. Okay, this is gonna be a, were you gonna say something?

• 3:08:51Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, so there's, there's multiple proxies. The, the other thing I would say is that there are studies that show, that would suggest that episodes of intense volcanism can be triggered by hypervelocity impacts, that mass extinctions could be triggered by high velocity and hypervelocity impacts, that extreme climate changes as, like from a relatively temperate climate into a, what's almost referred to as a cosmic winter, could also be produced by hypervelocity impacts. Massive earthquakes. Now, we know that there were, and I, if we were looking at slides,

• 3:09:31Speaker 01

  I could pull up a slide and I could show you, here are extreme flood events that occurred during the catastrophic melting of the great glacial ice sheets. And sandwiched in those layers is thick deposits of volcanic ash. Wow. Which shows us that during that process of deglaciation, there were massive volcanic eruptions going off around the world. There's evidence of seismic earthquakes that might have been like 10 on the Richter scale. As a result of this rapid unloading because of the, the rapid melting of the ice sheet, you've now got trillions of tons of weight suddenly removed from the Earth's crust.

• 3:10:14Speaker 01

  You have this rebound, that causes a redistribution of the, the magma reservoirs below the crust, and that can lead to seismic events, earthquakes and so on. So we have earthquakes associated with deglaciation, we have volcanoes associated with hypervelocity impacts. I think that for the explanation of how do we, when you, when the planet is in the full depths of a glacial age, you're talking about five or six or seven million cubic miles of the ocean. Extracted out, deposited on the land over a period of maybe 10,000 years. And now it builds up, it's a mile and a half thick.

• 3:10:56Speaker 01

  Now imagine if we were suddenly transported back 14,000 years ago.

• 3:11:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:01Speaker 01

  That beach wouldn't be there. It'd be another 40 or 50 miles to the east. And you'd be sitting right there in forests, the same kind of forests that you now find up in Canada.

• 3:11:10Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:11:11Speaker 01

  Right there. There's no beach there.

• 3:11:13Jesse Michels?

  Out in Miami.

• 3:11:14Speaker 01

  You gotta go.

• 3:11:15Jesse Michels?

  Miami, Miami Beach would look a lot different.

• 3:11:17Speaker 01

  It would look a lot different.

• 3:11:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:11:19Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's amazing. And so volcanic activity, seismic activity, ice core sampling. All of these pieces of artifacts of evidence would not be explained by any of the other things. So, you know, a lot of sun activity.

• 3:11:31Speaker 01

  One caveat, I do think the sun had a role. I agree with Robert.

• 3:11:34Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:11:34Speaker 01

  On that issue, I disagree that he's, I think he's too dismissive of impacts. Although I think he's hedging a little bit, but I do believe the sun had a major role and there's.

• 3:11:46Jesse Michels?

  What was the sun's role?

• 3:11:47Speaker 01

  Well, the sun's role is that we probably had these tremendous solar storms.

• 3:11:52Jesse Michels?

  Do you know Matt La Croix by any chance?

• 3:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know Matt.

• 3:11:55Jesse Michels?

  So I just interviewed him and he said something very crazy that honestly I have trouble believing. He said that in the 90s through the Pioneer mission that NASA did, it was, you know, his first deep space envoy. They were looking at these sort of orbital anomalies of Neptune and Jupiter. And they thought that given these orbital anomalies, they detected this, the presence of this 10th planet. That was far, way far out, like beyond the Kuiper Belt and, and, and, and beyond Pluto. And I, I found that hard to believe, but he was like, no, they found it. And then the crazier thing is he said they covered up the presence of this 10th planet.

• 3:12:38Jesse Michels?

  Because this planet was four to five times larger than the earth. And it, to me, I mean, I'll just, if this stuff, if this planet exists. It would make sense that it would be outside of the gravitational sphere of influence of the sun, right? If it's that big. And he was saying that. The only thing that made this planet make sense from a gravitational perspective is that we're in a binary star system and there's actually a dead star in our star system that this, I know it sounds crazy, but it sort of dances around the sun and it creates these cyclical coronal mass ejections because when you get that sort of gravitational force, you know, coming towards the sun, that creates this, you know, CME event. The whole thing seemed

• 3:13:22Jesse Michels?

  beyond belief to me, but I wanted to see if-

• 3:13:24Speaker 01

  I don't have any opinion on that. I would, first thing I'd say is, Matt, I gotta look at your sources.

• 3:13:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it was like, you know, a couple of, you know, decently well-established astronomical publications and then, you know, these Caltech professors who seemed like they had credentials, but I don't know.

• 3:13:43Speaker 01

  There have been wobbles detected in the outer planets and some of the speculation around those wobbles is some kind of a gravitational perturbation by some hypothetical larger object that we have not actually discovered, other than indirectly through these gravitational perturbations. So, that's been around, that idea's been around quite a while. I don't know if that's what he's referring to, or if he's seen some data that I haven't seen. That's, my first thing I would say, I gotta go to the sources. When I hear these things, I want to know the sources. Are they, are they rigorously and robustly established?

• 3:14:27Speaker 01

  Or is it more speculative? And I don't know. I don't have an opinion on that.

• 3:14:32Jesse Michels?

  How do you explain, this is a huge non sequitur, but how do you explain the modern kind of alien or UFO phenomena in your sort of ancient civilization framework? Do you think that these are vestiges of a lost civilization and maybe remnant survivors of that civilization?

• 3:14:49Speaker 01

  Well, we've talked about that and I think that that should be one hypothesis that is investigated rigorously. I mean, I've immersed myself in mythology for decades and like today I was giving in the, in the presentation I did at Apocalypse Hereticon-

• 3:15:11Jesse Michels?

  Hereticon.

• 3:15:12Speaker 01

  Hereticon, thank you, was that behind the flood myths from all over the world, there have been really, there have been real floods that were really big, really huge, could be described as biblical in scale. Okay, so if we take and go, okay, there was this, there are universal myths about these gigantic world destroying floods. And now, science demonstrates to us that those were real. Then, in my mind, oh, that's pretty awesome. So, we have evidence now that one of the very most potent and universal of all myths, the great flood myths, were, had their origin in real phenomena. What about some of the others?

• 3:15:56Speaker 01

  Like the stories, if you look at what other stories from around the world are as ubiquitous as the flood stories? Well, that would be the stories and the beliefs in gods, right? And the gods are usually sky gods. And I think we could look at, in some cases, I think we could be transferring activity into heavens and anthropomorphizing. Thank you, anthropomorphizing these events in the sky, which could be...

• 3:16:32Jesse Michels?

  Or the inverse, or we're painting the past over with our modern kind of materialist epistemological brush. And maybe like, a bull did come down and have sex with a waterfall and create a titan. You know what I mean, like these weird myths? Like, maybe they literally saw these things with their eyes and that was just consensus reality at that time.

• 3:16:52Speaker 01

  Well, I do think they literally saw things.

• 3:16:54Jesse Michels?

  They would explain like, you know, storms and they would call, you know, they would explain like waves and it was Jupiter or whatever. We rationalize now.

• 3:17:03Speaker 01

  Sure, and I do think that they saw things and experienced things. And particularly like, if we go back to, you know, let's say we go back 5,000 to 8,000 years ago, when we know that the torrid meteor stream was a whole lot more active than now. And that people would have witnessed on a regular basis these phenomena in the sky. I'll mention, and you know well about the 1908 Tunguska event, right?

• 3:17:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course.

• 3:17:30Speaker 01

  Okay, so, well, one of the things that, one of the lessons we learned from that is the local people, the Tungusci people... They interpreted it as, as in the framework of their religious beliefs. So they believed that the event was caused by their god of fire, Ogdi, coming down from heaven to punish them. So now, unless they lose that mythical connection because they all become college educated or something, what would happen is that this would be a, a story that would be perpetuated.

• 3:18:11Speaker 01

  You know, in a thousand years, two thousand years from now, they would be talking about when the god Ogdi came to earth and set the earth on fire and, you know, did all this damage and so forth. Well, I think behind a lot of the things that have come down to us myths, we could find that same kind of a phenomenon going on, that you would have

• 3:18:34Speaker 01

  cosmic events that are so overwhelming in their magnitude that it spawns a religious response in people. Do I think that that's the full explanation for the idea of gods? No, I don't.

• 3:18:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:18:50Speaker 01

  And I think that there, that, that there might be a confusion between these things. Because for one thing, let's get back to this point that, you know, from the scientific enlightenment to now is scarcely over three hundred, four hundred years, right? I mean, we're in the, the space age now, we're in the age of computers. Now we're in the age of, of artificial intelligence, all within a few hundred years, right? So now, let's assume that we're talking about two, three hundred years of, of scientific development and we're looking at a span of time going back Two hundred thousand years.

• 3:19:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:19:32Speaker 01

  How, how easily could a thousand or a few thousand or five or even 10,000 years of cultural development, scientific development, whatever you want to think of it, how easily could that be lost?

• 3:19:46Jesse Michels?

  For sure.

• 3:19:47Speaker 01

  In the noise of 200,000 years?

• 3:19:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, nobody explains why, like, human Homo sapiens have been roughly physiologically or biologically the same for the last 200,000 or 300,000 years. The idea that just at the very, you know, the tail end, three to five percent of that time, we get culture, we get technology, we get all them, but we were just completely primitive during the entire, you know, rest of it.

• 3:20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:20:11Jesse Michels?

  I think that actually requires a greater leap in logic than the inverse than saying

• 3:20:16Speaker 01

  See, I, I agree with you.

• 3:20:17Jesse Michels?

  And like, you have these kind of Ray Kurzweil style like graphs where it's just like exponential technology or whatever, but it's total hubris, like that, you know, we, maybe we just don't, the, the field of archaeology is 200 years old, right? It's like, so it's like we, we found the ancient cities of, you know, Babylonia and Assyria or whatever in the early 1800s. And it's almost like a law, a predictable law in archaeology that the deeper we go, the older stuff gets. And so, you know, it's almost like your base case guess should be that human civilization is actually much older than, you know, we would ever expect. So I, I completely agree with you. The, the question I have for you is like, you, you're familiar with Eric Von Daniken, of course, the chariots of the gods.

• 3:20:59Jesse Michels?

  So like you read that book, you read Zacharias Sitchin, you know, all this stuff around, you know, aliens coming down and like seeding culture. And like, it feels like they are crossing their Ts or dotting the Is when the dot doesn't exist and the, you know, the cross doesn't exist. Like they're, they're finishing a sentence that is incomplete. And so it's always tough. Like I think the, the difference between kind of a huckster and like a genius is like this error correction at the, you're filling in the gaps with like BS, right?

• 3:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21:29Jesse Michels?

  And, and sometimes that happens, but it does feel like there's like a decent amount of evidence for star people or people from some other planet or like an advanced civilization transferring a lot of our modern wisdom and technology.

• 3:21:44Speaker 01

  I think, and I think that's a hypothesis that definitely should be explored.

• 3:21:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:21:48Speaker 01

  I have suggested that we also consider the idea that at least one dimension of it or one facet of it and that explains the whole phenomenon because there's some. Wild stuff going on there when you start looking at the the record of sightings and experiences of people who've witnessed these kinds of phenomena. But one is that we should consider the fact that, you know, we ourselves, our ancestors, if they were technologically advanced enough, could have left the planet. And there is some very interesting stories about, again, I mean, we could pull some of this up, but we chose not to do that this time. But some of the stories, like, for example, the world tree,

• 3:22:33Speaker 01

  where the great catastrophe comes and humanity climbs the world tree. And like after the floodwaters have receded, some of them climb back down to the earth to repopulate the earth. But some of the other ones keep climbing into the higher branches that leads to the heavens. I mean, that's like a story. That's a common motif that we run into. So what if there was a literal truth of some kind behind these stories like that? What if they're actually telling us, well, yeah, there were some people who somehow were able to leave the planet? Because if you knew, if you knew the scale and extent of the Younger Dryas events,

• 3:23:17Speaker 01

  and we knew, if we knew that something like that was going to happen again, I can guarantee you, there would be a scientific consensus that, well, if we want to preserve the species, we want to preserve civilization, we want to, you know, preserve our knowledge, our science, our industry, our art, all of that. When we don't know how extreme this is going to be, but we can speculate that it could be very extreme, we probably need to come up with some kind of a way of having a place of refuge. Where would that be? Well, the most obvious one would be the moon.

• 3:23:53Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that ancient religions, like the esoteric versions of them actually kind of comport and go together? Like, I think of, you know, in Merkabah, the Jewish, you know, Kabbalistic tradition, you have like the seven hekalo, like, you know, and then there's seven arit, you know, in the Egyptian tradition, and then you have the ziggurat in Sumeria has seven steps. Do you think a lot of these ancient traditions actually point towards these sort of celestial ascent practices that are, there's actually somewhat consistent and go move across history?

• 3:24:29Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. I mean, there's got to be an explanation for why universally, you know, humans were so interested in the sky, what went on in the sky, created these monuments to the sky. Sure, I think that there probably was a reason, and it could be, let's say, commemorating the knowledge that there was once a science of celestial travel, was still in existence, but the actual know-how to do it had been lost.

• 3:25:04Jesse Michels?

  You know, the Air Force funded the movie Stargate, where there's like a portal by the pyramid?

• 3:25:10Speaker 01

  I didn't know they funded it.

• 3:25:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I always found that interesting.

• 3:25:13Speaker 01

  You'll have to excuse me, I might be reaching the end of my tether.

• 3:25:17Jesse Michels?

  No, no, this is great, I appreciate your time, Randall.

• 3:25:20Speaker 01

  I'm having a good time, but yeah, I'm...

• 3:25:23Jesse Michels?

  You gotta go create a thunderstorm.

• 3:25:25Speaker 01

  We'll see what happens there, yes.

• 3:25:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, I hope you come out.

• 3:25:30Speaker 01

  But we can certainly do this again, and next time, if you'd like, we could do, give me a little advance notice and I'll do some preparation, we can sit here and we can look at some slides and things and talk about what we're looking at.

• 3:25:41Jesse Michels?

  That sounds good to me.

• 3:25:42Speaker 01

  Doesn't that sound fun?

• 3:25:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, thanks, man.

• 3:25:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:25:45Jesse Michels?

  Appreciate you.

• 3:25:46Speaker 01

  Jesse, it's always fun.

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