The Robert Redford Hall of Fame

Sean and Amanda are joined by Tracy Letts to cover the monumental work of legendary actor Robert Redford. They celebrate the star’s illustrious career, share their personal relationship to his work, and build his Hall of Fame. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Tracy Letts Producer: Jack Sanders Research: Brantley Palmer Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sean Fennessey?

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• 0:46Sean Fennessey?

  Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:19Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 1:20Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 1:20Sean Fennessey?

  And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Robert Redford. Tracy Letts is here.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:26Sean Fennessey?

  Hi.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:27Sean Fennessey?

  You're here to just be a podcaster.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  That's all I do.

• 1:30Sean Fennessey?

  You're not selling anything?

• 1:31Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:31Sean Fennessey?

  You're not promoting anything? You're not here to talk about physical media? You're not here to talk about your life? You're here to talk about a filmmaker, an actor, a Hollywood legend? Why are you here?

• 1:42Speaker 03

  This is my job.

• 1:43Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  My job is a physical media collector, a third chair on The Big Picture.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  Bon vivant. And as a hobby, I occasionally write a play or appear in a film. But this is my job. I'm doing my job and I've done the work.

• 2:02Sean Fennessey?

  Welcome back to work. Amanda, how are you feeling about the work today?

• 2:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm a bit nervous because before this recording, Tracy indicated to me that he watched multiple episodes of Robert Redford's television work.

• 2:14Sean Fennessey?

  I have at least one I would like to discuss.

• 2:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I have been in the, in the mines doing the Redford work. I have seen a lot of things, but I did not make it to the TV episodes. So I'm starting out dawned.

• 2:27Sean Fennessey?

  Couple of good ones.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  Just a sampling. I did not see all of Robert Redford's TV work, just a sampling.

• 2:32Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, well, just that should give you some indication of what we're attempting to do here, which is we are going to talk about in celebration of the life and work of one of the biggest careers in Hollywood history. I, I think when he, right after he passed, we talked about it. And I said, I can't think of someone who had actually a bigger impact on the industry at large in that era, in part because of the multiple different roles that he played. First as a star, then as a filmmaker, then as a sort of activist and shepherd for lots and lots and lots of great artists over the last 40 plus years of the Sundance Institute. So talking about him is challenging, but let's just try to have a, a general conversation at first. You remember the first time you saw him?

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was eight years old and I saw him in The Sting in the movie theater, 1973. I'm born in 65. Redford became a big star. The breakout was really Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in 69. So when I was growing up, he was a movie star. Maybe the biggest movie star, certainly one of the biggest movie stars. And I have a very clear memory of seeing The Sting in a packed movie theater. On its initial release, when an audience collectively realized, oh, we've been conned too, right? The great moment in that movie. And yeah, it's stuck with me all these years.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  You know, I should also say, in this year, in 2025, Diane Keaton, Gene Hackman, Robert Redford, all these people have died. And these were really, they were the movie stars of my youth. Now, Redford may be more of a star as opposed to kind of character actor that Gene Hackman was, or specific kind of movie star Diane Keaton was for a while till she broke out and became even bigger. But they were people that we saw regularly on the big screen.

• 4:26Sean Fennessey?

  So to us, Redford, when we were coming of age, was sort of like a part of the furniture of Hollywood. He was, do you remember the first time that you remember seeing him?

• 4:37Amanda Dobbins?

  So, yes, the first time I saw him was also in The Sting, though not in 1973. And it's because when I was studying the piano, I learned to play The Entertainer. And so my parents were like, hey, we've got a film for you. I do also think that my mother was like, and it stars Paul Newman and Robert Redford. So it was presented to me in that context. And I was too young for it and thought it was boring, which is what happened with all of the films that my parents showed me. But I hooked into him. And then even in the 90s, he was still playing like handsome, older, you know, Golden Fox, Heartthrob.

• 5:19Amanda Dobbins?

  So I guess he was part of the furniture, but my first memories after The Sting are like Up Close and Personal, and The Horse Whisperer, and all of these things where he is a, he's slightly older, but he's still got it. And the movies know that he still has it and are built around his appeal as an older leading man.

• 5:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and he maintained that aura as a big star all the way through the 90s. I mean, every time he had a movie come out, it was cover of Entertainment Weekly and a big deal in the trades, whether it was a big hit ultimately or not. I can't remember for sure, but I have to assume that The Natural is the first time that I saw him as a baseball addled boy, watching it on cable, more than likely, at like five or six. And I gotta say, as a baseball addled boy, even at the time, I remember thinking, this guy's awfully old to be a ball player.

• 6:11Sean Fennessey?

  And he was awfully old in that story, even in the context of that story, he's awfully old. And yet, you know, that's very much a forever movie that is a big part of his legacy. In doing these halls of fame, you might think, oh, the natural, that's a no brainer. It's got to go in. This is a hard, it's hard to.

• 6:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Really hard.

• 6:28Sean Fennessey?

  There's a, oh, there's like 25 locks for the Hall of Fame. This is incredibly difficult.

• 6:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Including basically an entire decade. So that's going to be tricky as well if we want to be, quote, representative as opposed to.

• 6:43Sean Fennessey?

  The decade in which you first saw him, he's making some of the most fun, entertaining, and in some cases, deep movies of the 1970s.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  There's a run that starts with Butch and Sundance in 1969 and ends with All the President's Men in 76. And in that span of eight years, he made 13 films. He's the lead in all of those films. And you could construct the Hall of Fame out of those 13 movies. You could select the best 10 movies from that 13 and have a Hall of Fame. No, obviously, we'll go beyond that. But, I mean, it was quite a run.

• 7:17Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty crazy. So what do you think make, do you think of him as a special actor? We know he's a special star, right? He's handsome. He's got this, this incredible still charisma. But as an actor, how do you think about him?

• 7:28Speaker 03

  I think he's underrated. I think he's very deeply skilled. I, I think he was so smart about what he chose to do, right? He just didn't put himself in position to fail very often as an actor. He was always taking on things he could do. There's always a kind of, well, I guess, a reluctance off screen, but also a bit of reluctance on the screen. They teach you as an actor, right? You, you have lots of marvelous things to say, you just choose not to say them. And I think that Redford really exemplified that. He, he often appears to be the smartest person on screen, and yet he is often.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Silent, thoughtful, taciturn. I think he's a great actor. I think he probably had more range than he showed us, but he wasn't going to step outside of that range. It's not a question just of comfort. It's where he thought that he would be believable to an audience.

• 8:30Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting. You really have to know yourself to become a star.

• 8:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Sean Fennessey?

  He really must have known himself because in the beginning of his career, he does a lot of stage work and comedy. And then, you know, you look at the last 30-plus years of his career, there's very little of that. What do you like about him as an actor?

• 8:46Amanda Dobbins?

  There is a confidence to him that is different from the, you know, the typical, I am a leading man or I am an actor and I want this attention and I'm comfortable with, you know, I'm seeking this out. To me, sometimes that is born out of some insecurity and you feel that acting is trying to get people to like you or validate your feelings. You know, that there is like a hunger or a vulnerability can motivate a really good actor. And Robert Redford is just very clearly, I'm good. Like, I know where I am. I know myself.

• 9:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Whatever's going on is locked away in me. And there is that discomfort with being watched, but I also think he's incredibly good at being watched in a way that most people are not. He, again, he understands the power that he commands and a lot of his films use it in smart ways, including with, you know, women just absolutely losing their minds. We'll talk about The Way We Were at some point. I asked you guys both to prepare it, but that is a really incredible movie about Robert Redford and understands his appeal and the way that everyone looks at him

• 10:12Amanda Dobbins?

  in a way that shaped the rest of his career. So, I mean, I also obviously think of him as being just incredibly handsome, but he does and holds on to it for a long time.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:24Amanda Dobbins?

  And comfortable in that and like uses it.

• 10:27Sean Fennessey?

  He has an inordinate number of movies in which his character's name or nickname is in the title of the movie, which I think confers something about him. You know, he is the Sundance Kid. He is the natural. He is the candidate. He is Jeremiah Johnson. Like, he is the horse whisperer. Like, it kind of recurs over and over again. And that is like, some of that is star management from a career perspective, where it's like, not only is my name above the title, but I'm the reason to go. And some of it is also this kind of like, I think, really smart idea of mythmaking that he's interested in. Where like, he understands old Hollywood and he understands what he's capable of.

• 11:06Sean Fennessey?

  Ethan Hawke was here actually earlier today, but it will have aired a few weeks earlier. And he repeated a story, which many people repeated when Redford passed, about this conversation between Mike Nichols and Redford when he was casting The Graduate. And Mike Nichols had wanted Redford for Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And Redford said, I don't want to do it. Had not liked the play. Yes, did not like the play. And then he went back to Nichols because he wanted to do The Graduate. He wanted to play Benjamin Braddock. And Nichols asked him, um, what it felt like to strike out with a girl? Want to be told no? When you ask someone out on a date? And he, his reply was essentially, what do you mean? Yeah.

• 11:51Sean Fennessey?

  Because he'd never struck out. Because he looks like Robert Redford. Because he is Robert Redford.

• 11:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 11:55Sean Fennessey?

  And so, at probably 14 years old, he had a kind of inborn confidence that allowed him to be somehow like, more strategic and maybe more comfortable in himself. And I think a lot of the actors that you're describing, obviously he didn't get the part of Benjamin in The Graduate, which is great. It worked out for everybody. Yeah. And he and Nichols, they never, they never got together. Well, Barefoot in the Park onstage was- Right, that's right.

• 12:23Sean Fennessey?

  But he is a, he's very unique because you would think, for example, Paul Newman, who we talked about earlier this year on the show, would be tremendously confident. And was in some ways, but was also deeply insecure.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:33Sean Fennessey?

  As a star.

• 12:34Amanda Dobbins?

  And angry and.

• 12:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you know, struggled with addiction and had a lot of demons and Redford, definitely, there's a darkness to him.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:41Sean Fennessey?

  And he definitely has some personal struggles, but like, he didn't talk about that, those sorts of things very much. He clearly put it into the work, but didn't feel comfortable making it metaphorical.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:51Sean Fennessey?

  As a celebrity, lived in Utah, didn't live in Hollywood.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  He knew, again, he knew what worked. He, he had such self-knowledge about what worked for him, how, how he could help tell the story. You know, good actors use as much of themselves as they can. You don't reach outside of yourself until you need to, until you have to. You know, there's some great movie stars who have never, the, the performance is the same throughout. It's not the case with Robert Redford. His, his, there is in fact, variety.

• 13:24Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  And really cramming for this podcast over the last few weeks, really, the, the performance he gives in Our Souls at Night is actually a very different performance than his Dan Rather in Truth. This is at the end of his career, and he, you could certainly forgive him for just kind of mailing it in, or I'm just gonna give you Robert Redford here, but he doesn't. I mean, there is a distinction between those characters. So that self-awareness is not only one of the things that makes him such a compelling actor, but also the way he constructed such an amazing career.

• 14:02Sean Fennessey?

  You wouldn't know this because you haven't seen the film, but the same is true of his work in Avengers Endgame. You know, he really is giving a different kind of performance in that movie.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  You know, so I crammed really hard for this, and I came up about six movies short.

• 14:16Sean Fennessey?

  The exact same number I came up short. That's very funny.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  Came up about six movies short, and I'm afraid that the Avengers movies were.

• 14:22Sean Fennessey?

  I can speak to that. Don't worry.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 14:23Sean Fennessey?

  Um.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  That's the thing. I also knew, it was like, I don't need to talk about it. These guys, these guys watch this movie every night. They, they know all about it.

• 14:30Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda's favorite movie of the century, actually, which will be revealed later on this podcast.

• 14:33Amanda Dobbins?

  I remember everything that happened in it as well.

• 14:35Sean Fennessey?

  Um, Redford lived to 89, and he worked all the way through his life, and worked quite a bit in the last 10 years of his life.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  I was really surprised at that.

• 14:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he seemed to get reinvigorated for acting and also maybe needed some money. It's possible that both things are true, but it's interesting because he has this remarkable run in the 70s. And then in the 80s, he makes four movies. And then in the 90s, he makes five movies. Now, he's directing films at that time, but he like really slows down on the star trajectory and seems more comfortable doing something once every two or three years. But in the 2000s, he's really reinvigorated. So I say that to say, we have a lot of films to go through. Is there anything in particular that you want to cite about his life and career before we get into that conversation?

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Well, look, I don't know how much we're going to talk about things, some of the other aspects of his life and career, but the truth is, we're having this star conversation. All right. As an exercise, I say to you, make the list of the biggest movie stars of all time, from one to 100. And each, obviously, it's a very subjective list, everybody, right? Because there are too many variables in a list like that. You don't know if what somebody else finds sexy, where the sex appeal is, where do you put somebody like Marcello Mastroianni, right? Who's a great movie star, in some of the greatest movies ever made, but his movies never made any money in the United States.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  I mean, so there are all sorts of factors that you're balancing. But I promise you that Robert Redford is coming in on anybody's list in the top 20, certainly in the top, certainly in the top 20, maybe in the top 10. Maybe on Mount Rushmore, right? He's there. He's there in that discussion. And we can have that discussion and leave out Sundance. His producing credits, his activism, especially for environmental justice, Native American issues, you can leave all of that stuff. I mean, Sundance alone would put him right at the, really at the top of his craft, at the top of.

• 16:52Sean Fennessey?

  He dramatically altered independent film in America.

• 16:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I was going to ask whether Sundance is eligible, as like, as a concept.

• 16:59Sean Fennessey?

  We're already in so much pain trying to cut this down to 10. The idea of adding an institute and festival to the list makes my head hurt. Now, I want to pitch an idea that I have.

• 17:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 17:10Sean Fennessey?

  Now, I'm gonna claim the credit and the title of this idea, but maybe it can be something that we share. But I wanted to do Sean's Corner, Sean's Alley, and that there are titles

• 17:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 17:20Sean Fennessey?

  that go into this space that I know are not gonna make it into the Hall of Fame.

• 17:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 17:24Sean Fennessey?

  But I want to open a little wing in the janitor's closet. That's like, these movies are over here, and if you want them to be a part of the experience, you just need to use the right key and go in through that door.

• 17:35Amanda Dobbins?

  So you're putting Sundance in Sean's Alley?

• 17:37Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, no, I'm not putting Sundance there. Sundance gets its own museum. That's the thing about Sundance. And the activism as well. And he's fascinating in that way, too, because he is sort of George Clooney before George Clooney, where people in the 80s were like, you should run for president. And he was repulsed by that idea, but he represented something, I think ideologically and emotionally about the country, that he was purposefully trying to communicate an idea of decency in the world, in his characters and in the work that he did when he spoke publicly. But he was a tough guy. He was a hard guy. And there are a lot of stories about working with him over the years, where he's very specific and very intentional and not always easy to work with.

• 18:19Sean Fennessey?

  And so you can also read a lot about the ways in which he made those decisions and earned this gravitas and legendary status.

• 18:29Sean Fennessey?

  Fascinating dude.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  Really fascinating dude. I don't know that I fully understand Sean's Corner.

• 18:34Sean Fennessey?

  Don't worry.

• 18:35Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's over there. You're gesturing to like a little space.

• 18:38Sean Fennessey?

  Right over here.

• 18:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Sean Fennessey?

  This is the little alley.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  Do we have access to Sean's Corner?

• 18:43Sean Fennessey?

  Well, if you're nice to me in this conversation, maybe I'll lend you a key.

• 18:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, do you remember for Newman, we were so overwhelmed by the amount of work that we invented. I think that it was a blue. And each person gets a blue. Would you like to institute that?

• 18:57Sean Fennessey?

  I think we should have three blues.

• 18:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 18:59Sean Fennessey?

  Three individual, personal picks that exist outside of the green delineation in the Hall of Fame.

• 19:03Speaker 03

  So maybe they start yellow, and then when we go back through the yellows, we can say, that's my blue. Now, can we share a blue? What if two of us have a blue, but we decide it's not going in the Hall of Fame?

• 19:14Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we certainly can.

• 19:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess we could share it, but maybe we could strategize. This isn't a draft. We're not competing against each other.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  No, of course not.

• 19:22Amanda Dobbins?

  So then we can share the wealth.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  I feel great about it. I have to remind myself, this is all made up.

• 19:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 19:30Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I do too. That's unfortunately the problem with my life. A couple of quick notes about his career before we get into it. Only nominated for one Best Actor Academy Award. That was for the film that you saw in movie theaters, The Sting. Honestly, a very strange nomination relative to the history of his career. Is he even the lead of that movie?

• 19:49Amanda Dobbins?

  People just really, really liked The Sting.

• 19:50Sean Fennessey?

  They did.

• 19:50Amanda Dobbins?

  They really liked it.

• 19:52Sean Fennessey?

  He did win Best Director in his career. We will get to the film for which he won. He was nominated once more for Best Director and also nominated for Best Picture one year. One of his films won Best Picture, the Academy Awards. He was given an honorary Academy Award in 2002. But you know, he's not celebrated in the same way that we think of the great screen icons where they get two or three Academy Award wins for their performances. He didn't have that reputation and honestly, critics were not really super fond of him. They often criticized him as being very wooden and internal and quiet and very full of himself. That was something you find in a lot of criticism about his movies.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  It's a little strange because he sure made those people a lot of goddamn money. And one of the amazing things going through these movies is to look at the box office. Even movies that you go, well, that was a failure, that was marginal. And you go, oh no, The Great Gatsby was actually one of the biggest hits of that year. I mean, he made people a lot of money in this business.

• 20:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's an interesting movie to talk about too, in terms of his persona at that time and how he pivots away from that. But I don't know, should we jump in? Should we start talking about films?

• 21:01Speaker 03

  Let's grade it. Let's grade it.

• 21:04Sean Fennessey?

  You know, he started in the theater.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  He did.

• 21:07Sean Fennessey?

  And you know anything about his work in the theater? Anything notable that you want to say?

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Well, I know that his first play was Tall Story on Broadway, which was written by Lindsey and Kraus and directed by Joshua Logan. And they got him because he could play basketball. They needed real basketball players, but he was only 5'10", but he looked credible dribbling a basketball across the court. And then they made a movie of Tall Story, which is not a memorable thing, but he's uncredited in that film, his first movie with Jane Fonda.

• 21:44Sean Fennessey?

  Not his last. He...

• 21:48Sean Fennessey?

  When he talks about his past, he has a kind of remove from the idea of wanting to become an actor. He talked about how when he was a teenager, he made fun of actors, he made fun of the theater, and then he got to be older and saw himself as a more sophisticated artist type, moved to France, studied painting and art, and then realized how broke he was going to be and came back to the United States and California and really started working, sort of, you know, spent time in New York, worked in the theater, and then started booking TV jobs. And he pretty steadily works in episodic television for four or five years, and Amanda has not seen any of this work.

• 22:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Sean Fennessey?

  But you've seen some of it.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  I saw in the presence of My Enemies, which is a Playhouse 90, it's actually the last Playhouse 90, it was the last episode of that TV series. And it's written by Rod Serling and it's directed by, name escapes me, Fielder Cook, directed by Fielder Cook. And he's in there with some heavy hitters. He's in there with Charles Lawton and Arthur Kennedy, and he's playing a German soldier. He's actually doing a German accent, that's the conceit at the time, right? He's doing German accented English, falls in love with the Jewish girl in the Warsaw Ghetto and has a pangs of guilt, you know, and he's,

• 23:13Speaker 03

  I don't think anybody ever really did that. German soldiers fall in love with Jewish girls and have pangs of guilt. I don't think that really happened. But that's the conceit of the TV show anyway.

• 23:23Sean Fennessey?

  You never know.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Written by Rod Serling.

• 23:25Sean Fennessey?

  You're going to speak for the entirety of the German infantry?

• 23:26Amanda Dobbins?

  That the side you want to, you want to jump in on?

• 23:31Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not defending anyone, I'm just, never say never.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  And I have to say, it's a credible performance. He has some, some good scenes with George McCready, George McCready, the bad guy from Paths of Glory, and they have some great scenes. George McCready, a really bad Nazi, I mean, the, the

• 23:47Sean Fennessey?

  In the film.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  The other side of the coin of Redford's Nazi. And they have some good scenes together. It's good, it's a credible performance. He's, like I say, he's in there with some real players. By the way, that same year, he's in The Case of the Treacherous Toupee, that's his Perry Mason episode, and I have to say, that's a real dud. You can miss that. He's also

• 24:06Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a great title.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  He's also in The Iceman Cometh,

• 24:12Speaker 03

  directed by Sidney Lumet and Jason Robards, who was our foremost interpreter of O'Neill. And Redford played Don Parrott in that, which is a fun part, relatively speaking, in Iceman Cometh. And so he's doing, the stuff he's doing on TV is real stuff.

• 24:32Sean Fennessey?

  One thing that's probably fairly easy to track down for listeners of the show that I always like is he's in a very memorable and excellent episode of The Twilight Zone called Nothing in the Dark. I don't know, have you ever seen this episode?

• 24:45Speaker 03

  I did, I watched it in preparation for this podcast, yes.

• 24:48Sean Fennessey?

  So not written by Rod Serling. This episode's written by George Clayton Johnson.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  But he got the job because he had done the previous Rod Serling script. Rod Serling remembered him when they were casting this.

• 24:59Sean Fennessey?

  And in this episode, he plays a man who arrives at the door of an old woman who has been evading death most of her life. And she has a great deal of paranoia. And he is the voice on the other side asking to come in. And he's asking to come in because he needs help. He needs something from her. And it is just this two-hander between these two characters. I haven't seen it in some time, but I remember him being, I don't, I guess I can spoil this sixty-year-old episode.

• 25:27Sean Fennessey?

  Is he's deaf.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:28Sean Fennessey?

  And he's come to fetch her. And that's the big reveal at the end of the episode. But it is like, I mean, I'm sure I saw this when I was a teenager in Discovering the Twilight Zone, but I was mesmerized and mesmerized by him and his kind of serpentine charm in this part. He's really great. And you could tell in 1964, this guy's got it. This guy's got the juice.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  He's really good. It's a really good episode of The Twilight Zone, directed by Lamont Johnson, who went on to direct some, some good movies as well. I also saw First Class Muleak, which is an episode of Route 66, which is also a bit of a dud.

• 26:05Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, it's too bad.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  But Martin Balsam is in it. Who he would cast in All the President's Men a few years later. Oh, he had also auditioned to be the lead in Route 66, one of the leads. And Martin Milner got the part. So they remembered him and brought him back to be a guest star on the show.

• 26:23Sean Fennessey?

  Memorable sliding door. If he had gotten that part, what movies would he have not appeared in? Let's talk about them.

• 26:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, because this is a movie podcast.

• 26:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 26:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm glad you guys watched some TV.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 26:33Sean Fennessey?

  This is what it's like.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Judge, well, he got judged.

• 26:35Sean Fennessey?

  This is if you want.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  I just got judged.

• 26:36Amanda Dobbins?

  You did the work.

• 26:37Sean Fennessey?

  If you want third chair, this is what it's like.

• 26:39Amanda Dobbins?

  You, I respect. He's just like talking about the Twilight Zone again.

• 26:43Sean Fennessey?

  The greatest television show of all time. You already mentioned the uncredited part, so we won't talk about that.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:49Sean Fennessey?

  There's only one incredibly small early film that is happening while he's doing the stage work called War Hunt, which I have not seen, but Amanda says she has seen.

• 26:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I watched it for this podcast.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Great.

• 27:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Because I also did my homework and it was a film.

• 27:05Amanda Dobbins?

  It was fine.

• 27:06Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 27:06Amanda Dobbins?

  It is, he is a soldier in the Korean War and this time he is once again, like the quote unquote, good American soldier.

• 27:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Kind of pitted against this psychotic, literally, American soldier who goes out at night just like killing people.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Is that John Saxon?

• 27:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And Sidney Pollack is also in this film as an actor, which is where they met. Redford, he's, he's fine. He's good. I, it's sort of surprising that this is a 1962 film and it is more anti-war than I associate with Hollywood, you know, movies at that time. So I give it credit for that. It's not like hugely nuanced, but that's okay. And, and Red, I mean, Redford is, is a side part.

• 27:53Sean Fennessey?

  So that's Red.

• 27:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Sean Fennessey?

  Any War Hunt thoughts?

• 27:56Speaker 03

  No.

• 27:56Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. 1965 Inside Daisy Clover.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  I'm gonna back up a little bit to Barefoot in the Park, which he does on stage in 1963.

• 28:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Great.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  So he's got a film, just dipping his toe in a film career. He's working in TV and he gets a chance to do Barefoot in the Park,

• 28:15Speaker 03

  by Neil Simon, directed by Mike Nichols.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  A very slight piece. I know this because I, I did Barefoot in the Park for four months touring Norway and Sweden high schools when I was 20 years old. So.

• 28:30Amanda Dobbins?

  What time of year?

• 28:32Speaker 03

  What?

• 28:32Amanda Dobbins?

  What time of year?

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Was I touring?

• 28:34Amanda Dobbins?

  In Norway and Sweden, yes.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  I was the fall and winter. And you played, you played Paul? I did, I did. Wow. At 20 years old. I did, yeah. Is Paul a lawyer?

• 28:44Amanda Dobbins?

  In the Scandinavian winter.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  I think so. He's a lawyer. It's been a long time. Forty years, in fact. Since I did it, but uh, he does it with Elizabeth Ashley in the original production. Now, Mark Harris wrote a book about Mike Nichols, and he interviewed Robert Redford for his book. And then after Mr. Redford passed, Mark Harris wrote some stuff he didn't put in the book, and he put it on his social media account. May I do a little short reading? Please do. So this is Robert Redford talking to Mark Harris. "We tried out in New Haven. Now, I was not sure about my own self at that time. So when I was called out to do the play, part of me was resisting everything, everything. My thought was, I'm going to show everyone why I shouldn't be in this play.

• 29:29Speaker 03

  When we opened in New Haven, I basically just laid down. I said, okay, I'm going to be so bad, they're going to get rid of me. So I got terrible reviews. Elizabeth Ashley did well. They all loved her and she was great. But my perversity had everyone down on me. I thought, well, this is good. Now they'll replace me. Mike took me to lunch and said, 'Look, I think I know what you're doing, and it's not going to work. No matter how bad you try to behave, I'm not going to replace you.' So I said, 'Well, I'm now going to get worse.' I decided I'm not going to let him win this one. I'm going to show him. I'm going to be so bad, he's gotta replace me.' So then we went to Washington, and the reviews were even worse. He took me to lunch and he said, 'Pretty funny. You might as well give it up, because it's not going to work.'

• 30:14Speaker 03

  So the next night, I guess it was, I don't know what town it was, I laid down again. And he then told me something really interesting. He said, 'Look, why don't you look at it this way? I think you're somebody that probably has some secrets that you keep hidden, and I wasn't aware of that.' He said, 'Why don't you search yourself? Search for the things you hide. What if you use that for the character? The idea that you carry secrets around?' I said, oh, okay. So that night, when I went on, I didn't say my lines. I just whistled. The audience didn't know what the fuck was going on. What in the hell was going on? And I just whistled and whistled and whistled to a point where I suddenly felt so comfortable that I was doing what I wanted to do.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  In such a weird way, I suddenly came alive. From that point on, I came up to par. I just thought that was an interesting story, given what we're talking about. His withholding nature.

• 31:09Sean Fennessey?

  I think it also speaks very much to Mike Nichols's superpowers and why he was such a gifted director, which was not because of he knew where to put the camera or, you know, how to light a scene, but because he could do that. There was a psychological power. Robert Redford definitely had some secrets and he's kind of like exploring those secrets in all of his films. Inside Daisy Clover, not the most secretive movie I've ever seen.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:32Sean Fennessey?

  A movie that announces itself in many ways loudly and without.

• 31:36Speaker 03

  Did you watch Inside Daisy Clover?

• 31:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I sure did, yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  What'd you think?

• 31:39Amanda Dobbins?

  I have to be honest, you know, Robert Redford looks handsome in a tux, whatever. He seems somewhat miscast, but, and that's fine. And then I just spent my whole time being like, so what was up with Natalie Wood? Just, what was going on there?

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Well, she's just very miscast.

• 31:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, yeah, and very beautiful, but I just more meant like Natalie Wood was one of the great movie stars of the early 60s and I never understood it.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  She and Robert Redford went to the same high school together and she had been kind of key in encouraging him and his acting career. Van Nuys, right? I think they were in Van Nuys High School. And they have more than one appearance in movies together.

• 32:21Sean Fennessey?

  There's some very amusing stuff about how Redford, with no disrespect, would often like undermine his own access to a certain level, like Dory Share, the famous Hollywood executive, his son was one of his best friends. Like, he was very connected, growing up in Van Nuys, to a lot of people in the business. So he was not some kid from nowhere. He was, he's a California guy. He's an LA guy. And his relationship with Natalie Wood, his friendship with Natalie Wood helps him a lot. This is not the last time they worked together. This movie is a. Pretty big bungle, in my opinion. It's meant to be this kind of Judy Garland-esque story about a young girl, a tomboy, who gets plucked out of obscurity to become a

• 33:02Sean Fennessey?

  big Hollywood star by a Hollywood mogul, played by Christopher Plummer, one year after The Sound of Music. And Redford plays essentially like the match that is made for her.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:16Sean Fennessey?

  To become, you know, engaged and become a star. In the movie, the character is supposed to be gay, but Redford resisted that in the production of the film. And so you get this mishmash of like, it's unclear what the nature of their relationship is even supposed to be. Anyway, interesting movie. Robert Molligan directed it. I think it's the first movie he made, To Kill a Mockingbird?

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:35Sean Fennessey?

  I think it is. And produced by Alan Pacula.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:38Sean Fennessey?

  Who we'll come back to.

• 33:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 33:39Sean Fennessey?

  Who's very important.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:40Sean Fennessey?

  But you can see them forging, at least. And this is when Pacula was working mostly as a producer, mostly for Molligan, I think, in the 60s. Definitely not going in.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  No. I, I, I don't think Mr. Redford is bad in this film.

• 33:54Amanda Dobbins?

  He's fine.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  I think he's, you know, it's the part that Kevin Kline would play 20 years later.

• 33:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Right? The florid flights of fancy. And, you know, as somebody said about Kevin Kline, it's like, it's like magic school is always part of the backstory.

• 34:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 34:10Speaker 03

  So I don't think that Mr. Redford's bad in it. But no, it's, the movie doesn't work. And the, the, the decision not to worry about the period, even though the movie is very clearly set in the 1930s, and yet nothing about it looks like the 30s, sounds like the 30s, the movie clips, the songs she sings, none of it seems like the 1930s. It's a weird movie.

• 34:32Sean Fennessey?

  Very odd choice.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:33Amanda Dobbins?

  I was baffled.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Stir up.

• 34:36Sean Fennessey?

  I have not seen this next film. Situation hopeless, dot, dot, dot, but not serious, which is a comedy that was based on a novel written by Robert Shaw, the Robert Shaw.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  That's the, the only interesting thing about it, I think.

• 34:53Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, it does, it does star Alec Guinness.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:55Sean Fennessey?

  Redford is, you know, the third or fourth lead. He doesn't have a huge part in the film. It's not, not good.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Didn't watch it.

• 35:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, I watched it. Alec Guinness was funny.

• 35:03Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 35:04Amanda Dobbins?

  But it's, you know, it's, it's the Alec Guinness Show. And they're, and they're kind of the- Unwitting, like, rubes who are the subject of his plotting. And it's, I guess it's not that. Everyone's fine. No one's in danger, really.

• 35:18Sean Fennessey?

  And was this film made some years earlier and then it was shelved and then released later? Right? That's the story?

• 35:22Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 35:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that's definitely not going in.

• 35:25Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 35:26Sean Fennessey?

  Let's talk about 1966's, no, yes, 1966's This Property is Condemned, which is a Tennessee Williams play adapted. We return once again to Natalie Wood.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Tennessee Williams tried to take his name off of it.

• 35:39Sean Fennessey?

  You can see why.

• 35:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 35:42Sean Fennessey?

  So interesting that he starts his career in this fashion as a film actor and it's in a handful of duds.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  There are some duds, yeah. Screenplay by Francis Ford Coppola.

• 35:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, in part.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Property is condemned, in part.

• 35:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Among like eight other people, right? Which is again, part of the problem.

• 35:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, they really had to hammer down this Filet-O-Fish.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  And it's his first collaboration with Sidney Pollack as actor-director.

• 36:05Sean Fennessey?

  Right. And did Pollack come in late? What is the story? Isn't there a story?

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know.

• 36:10Sean Fennessey?

  Was he always on this originally? This is also a strange movie about a woman working as a lady of the night and a representative from the railroads comes along.

• 36:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, yeah.

• 36:23Sean Fennessey?

  And he's got some big ideas and she's got some big ideas and then...

• 36:26Amanda Dobbins?

  And then her mom also has some big ideas.

• 36:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, well, it is Tennessee Williams after all. There is some existentialism in this story.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  I didn't watch it. Did you guys watch it?

• 36:33Sean Fennessey?

  I did.

• 36:35Amanda Dobbins?

  And again, this is, I think I watched it on the, in the same Jag where I watched the other Natalie Wood film. And I was just kind of like, I don't really understand, like, what are we doing?

• 36:45Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I did want to ask you about this. There is this stretch of Tennessee Williams adaptations from like roughly the mid 50s through late 60s.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 36:56Sean Fennessey?

  Some of his best-known work, a lot, some more obscure work, very few of them are very good. Why do you think that, obviously, Streetcar is Streetcar, right? But like, why do you think that it was so hard to translate Williams to the, to the, to the screen?

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, the poetry and the adult nature of the plays. They were often cut-up versions of themselves, right? They didn't, you know... That's not what actually happens in Streetcar Named Desire.

• 37:22Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  And Tennessee took the check. He always took the check. They would cut him a check and he would take the check. And he didn't give a damn about the movies. That's ultimately what happened. He didn't care if they made bad movies based on his plays. The plays were more important. But Williams himself was an important national figure. I mean, people understood that Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller were, were, they were tops.

• 37:49Sean Fennessey?

  Mm.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  And Williams was a, he was a very present, uh, cultural commentator. And the, the adult nature of, of those plays was, could be kind of scandalous. But the movies always left the interesting stuff out. So, yeah, it's a, a lot of, I, I've, uh, not to name drop. I, I actually had a conversation with Warren Beatty about this very thing. When I was working with Annette Bening and we were doing an Arthur Miller play. And we talked about this and Warren, who had appeared in one of these Williams adaptations, talked about his frustration that Tennessee just took the check and walked away

• 38:30Speaker 03

  and didn't exercise any kind of creative control over the thing. In other words, this property is condemned, had to be so bad that Williams was actually moved to say, I'm taking my fucking name off of this. It's so bad.

• 38:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. It's so funny though, because it is a sort of rite of passage for all of those screen stars of that time. You mentioned Beatty, Paul Newman made a couple of these movies.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:52Sean Fennessey?

  Um, Redford obviously made them. Brando kind of sets the template in many ways. And most of them just do not work at all. It's an interesting little footnote.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:00Sean Fennessey?

  Would not recommend this movie. Okay, 1966, The Chase. I know that you're interested in this film because you wrote about it on Letterboxd.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  I did. Wow, you, look at you, reading my Letterboxd reviews.

• 39:08Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I love your work.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  I like The Chase. I had not seen it before and I find it pretty compelling. I mean, it doesn't work top to bottom, I don't think. I think there are issues with the thing, but I think that the Horton Foot source material, what the movie concerns itself with, the idea of racism and fascism in this small community, the community representative of the larger community, right? And that Marlon Brando plays, he's John Proctor. He's the good guy at the center of this community who is going to

• 39:52Speaker 03

  going to fight these forces, fight the community for rule of law, for what he knows to be right. And obviously, it's such a murderer's row of actors in this thing. Marlon Brando, Jane Fonda, E.G. Marshall, Angie Dickinson, Janice Rule, the great underrated Richard Bradford, Robert Duvall, I mean.

• 40:15Sean Fennessey?

  Did you watch this?

• 40:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I did.

• 40:17Sean Fennessey?

  So with respect, I found it very dull.

• 40:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Me too. Well, when Jane Fonda is on screen, I'm very excited.

• 40:24Sean Fennessey?

  I liked Janice Rule as well. She's very vivacious.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  Brando?

• 40:28Amanda Dobbins?

  He's kind of.

• 40:29Sean Fennessey?

  I actually thought he was a little miscast.

• 40:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  Oh, man, I thought Brando was, I just think he's so worlds beyond the other people in, I mean, just in terms of acting style. He's just at the forefront of what he's doing as an actor.

• 40:42Sean Fennessey?

  I think, when I think of him as an actor, I think of him as someone reckoning with moral gray. And he's so direct and forthright and like clean in this, at least his character is in this movie, that it didn't, he seemed a little oddly out of place in this thing. But I will say, Redford is very interesting in this movie. He's really kind of flashing like action star chops in a way, because he is an escaped convict.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:07Sean Fennessey?

  And he's on the run. And the film is kind of taking place in this bifurcated way, where we're seeing this community reacting to this escaped convict. There's all this talk about Bubba, Bubba this and Bubba that. And then when we see him, he's just trying to survive. And he's leaping across trains and running through fields. And you can kind of see the guy who would become one of the more virile, physical. You know, sportsman of Hollywood.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:32Sean Fennessey?

  And he's pretty good in this.

• 41:33Amanda Dobbins?

  The scene where he finally makes it and he and Fonda meet up like they're in a junkyard or something and it's communicated what she's been doing while he's gone. He's really good in that.

• 41:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Amanda Dobbins?

  And like, kinda takes the, you can see the emotion, but he also like takes the revelation on its, on its face and they, like, they clearly have something.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  There's a, there's a problem at the center of it, which is why is he trying to get back there when as soon as he gets back there, he says, I've gotta get out of here.

• 42:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I mean, it's a great point.

• 42:03Sean Fennessey?

  It's a strange choice.

• 42:04Speaker 03

  What that's all about. James Fox is in this movie and he's interviewed on the special features on the Indicator disc, which is an excellent rendition of this movie.

• 42:17Sean Fennessey?

  Do you have that one, Amanda?

• 42:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I do. And I got you a second for Christmas.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  James Fox, in his interview, talks about when they were gathering to do this movie. First of all, they're all in awe of Brando. They're all just, just bowing down to Brando. But beyond that, he's, he mentions, we knew, we were told that Robert Redford was the next big thing. We were told, we knew about him when he showed up that he was gonna be a big deal.

• 42:46Sean Fennessey?

  Well, this is really the last thing that he does that is kind of modestly received. Everything after this becomes sort of a big deal in various ways, but this is also notable because it's the last movie Arthur Penn makes before he makes Bonnie and Clyde. And that is also a movie that basically changes the future of Hollywood.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:05Sean Fennessey?

  And Redford is operating right alongside that, that shift. So the next film he makes is Barefoot in the Park, an adaptation directed by Gene Sacks, starring Jane Fonda again. They worked together again. I'm just not a big fan of this material. I don't think it's the best Neil Simon.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  It's so light. It just floats away. It's just.

• 43:24Sean Fennessey?

  It's about a couple that lives on a sixth floor walk-up. I've lived on a sixth floor walk-up. It's not pleasant. I'm not sure if that's the premise of a film.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:32Sean Fennessey?

  But I could, you know, newlyweds trying to make their way in the world.

• 43:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I think it's charming.

• 43:37Sean Fennessey?

  They have great charm.

• 43:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think it needs to go on the list, but it is, is very charming.

• 43:40Sean Fennessey?

  No, the chase is not going in, uh, barefoot in the park. I don't think you, you're not going to make a case.

• 43:45Speaker 03

  Not at all.

• 43:46Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  The, it's the third time now that Robert Redford and Jane Fonda.

• 43:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 03

  Have worked together.

• 43:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, but not the last.

• 43:52Speaker 03

  Ashley replaced by Jane Fonda for the film Elizabeth, Elizabeth Ashley had a film career. I, I think Elizabeth Ashley has written about, she felt that she was badly behaved during the show and maybe that had something to do with, uh, her not getting the film.

• 44:07Sean Fennessey?

  She did. Um, they, they did not necessarily click. Um, so that, there's a two-year gap and then we get Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in 1969. Which is one of the greatest movies ever made.

• 44:18Amanda Dobbins?

  That is, that is a green.

• 44:19Speaker 03

  This is an automatic green.

• 44:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree.

• 44:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I'm not sure what level of conversation anyone would like to have about it. I frequently, frequently, just if I'm feeling low.

• 44:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:29Sean Fennessey?

  Just pull up the two-minute clip of them arguing on the cliff before deciding to jump. It is one of my favorite movie moments ever.

• 44:36Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so good.

• 44:37Sean Fennessey?

  And it is in largely because of Redford. And it's, I just want to say about this, that I don't know that he ever specifically did a part like this ever again. That this very fine-grained combination of overconfidence and humor. He didn't really lean on that note too often, but he's really, really good at it. And this movie obviously works because of their chemistry.

• 44:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 44:58Sean Fennessey?

  But it's just a movie that makes me smile.

• 45:00Amanda Dobbins?

  And he's very reactive in that moment, which I don't really associate with the rest of his career.

• 45:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 45:06Amanda Dobbins?

  He's usually setting the tone, but he and Newman are really going off each other. I also, in addition to that clip. The clip when they finally make it to Bolivia and he's just wandering around with all the goats yelling. I rewatched that again this morning, just like, I just need to get in the vibe. It's really, really funny.

• 45:22Sean Fennessey?

  He doesn't yell very much in movies.

• 45:24Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 45:24Sean Fennessey?

  You know, this is a very unusual kind of thing for him, but he's really wonderful in this movie. Um, this kicks off our relationship with George Roy Hill, which we will come back to as we go through the list. Any, any Sundance Kid thoughts?

• 45:34Speaker 03

  Uh, look, it's just so self-evident. I, again, like you said, there's not that much to say about it. If you don't like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, something's wrong with you.

• 45:42Sean Fennessey?

  Probably don't like movies.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, it, it is very much of its time. In the, it has a kind of 1969 pop sensibility about it, right? Suddenly, there's a Burt Bacharach song playing in the middle of it. And even Mr. Redford, writing about the movie or speaking about the movie, said, I thought it was a mistake. I, I, I thought this is, this is all wrong for this movie.

• 46:03Sean Fennessey?

  When you watch the movie now, it does feel out of place. That particular segment of the movie. But it's one of those things where sometimes an accepted piece of art, even in all of the attendant cliches, still transcends. You know, you can still look at the Mona Lisa and admire it, even though you've seen it reproduced on paper plates. There's still something kind of profound about it beyond its commercialization. I think this is one of those movies.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  Well, it also, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, coming when it does, right? The Western has been such an important part of movie history to this point. But it's being recontextualized a little bit, right? Through the spaghetti Westerns that have come out in the 60s. Peck and Paws were right there in the middle of this. And there is kind of a shift in the, in the consuming popular culture from the rural to the urban, taking place around this time, right? All the rural shows, all the Westerns get canceled.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  All the, all the rural comedies, Green Acres, Beverly Hillbillies, all that stuff. It all gets, they just wipe all that stuff out and they replace it with All in the Family and Good Times.

• 47:12Sean Fennessey?

  Will no longer be relevant, as Gail Scott-Heron said.

• 47:15Speaker 03

  There you go. So, uh, it's, now, there was still, uh, an appetite for rural material going throughout the 70s. And Redford was somebody who was able to dip in and out of, to go from urban to rural. And also, I, I think Manola Dargis made this point in her appraisal of Redford in the New York Times. He's so comfortable with a male co-star and with the female co-star. That's not the case with a lot of movie stars. Some of them, we think of primarily as, right? You don't think of a lot of the, the male stars that Richard Gere gets placed with, right? He's mostly opposite females in the movies he makes.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  And then you could think of a, a host of actors who are more comfortable with male co-stars. Redford was able to shift back and forth very easily.

• 48:05Sean Fennessey?

  Are you more comfortable with male or female co-stars?

• 48:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Is there another woman that we could have here? Can anyone find one?

• 48:12Sean Fennessey?

  I don't see any here in the building today, unfortunately. 1969 Tell Them Willie Boy Is Here, which is a movie I had not seen until yesterday.

• 48:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, how did you track it down?

• 48:22Sean Fennessey?

  I own it.

• 48:23Amanda Dobbins?

  You, congratulations.

• 48:24Sean Fennessey?

  So you could have called me up and could have called up the lending library?

• 48:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I Googled it. It was not available on streaming and then I said, okay, I'm gonna leave it to the High Council.

• 48:37Sean Fennessey?

  I assume you've seen this film.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  I also own it and I also watched it for this podcast. Shot before Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

• 48:44Sean Fennessey?

  Released in the same year and interestingly, he's essentially playing the Brando part in The Chase.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:50Sean Fennessey?

  Where he is the moral sheriff searching for the escaped man who's played by Robert Blake in this film as a Native American.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, some really grotesque brown face in this movie.

• 49:00Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty weird. The film is directed by-

• 49:03Amanda Dobbins?

  It's cool that you guys both own this.

• 49:05Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we're completists. Abraham Polanski, who was blacklisted, only directed two films in his career. This is the first film he made after 25 years. And I thought it was a pretty interesting movie.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  I did too.

• 49:19Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's a little bit rickety in the staging, but the performances are pretty good. I think Redford carries the movie pretty well.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 49:29Sean Fennessey?

  And I like Catherine Ross as well.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  Egregious brown face, egregious.

• 49:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 03

  And Robert Blake was always a compelling actor until, you know, he murdered people or whatever the hell.

• 49:41Sean Fennessey?

  He was, he was. He has a great screen presence, you know, and he's the titular Willie Boy in this movie. This is definitely not going in, but I think it's, if you like Redford, it's worth checking out for the completists.

• 49:52Amanda Dobbins?

  You guys are just absolutely veering through a lot on that one. Good job.

• 49:56Sean Fennessey?

  Just talking truth.

• 49:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Sean Fennessey?

  Just talking truth.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Based on a true story too.

• 49:58Sean Fennessey?

  That's right. Okay, 1969 downhill racer. Now, I'll foreground this by saying this is one of my favorite movies ever made.

• 50:05Amanda Dobbins?

  So it's really cool.

• 50:08Sean Fennessey?

  I think that this is an utterly unique film, and I think it also speaks immensely to what Redford is interested in and how he made things happen. It's his first movie with Michael Ritchie. They go on to make a few more movies together. It's a film about a downhill racer, a skier, competing in the Olympics. His coach is Gene Hackman. And he is a, is it James Salter who wrote it? I think it's James Salter, the great novelist. And it's about drive and ambition and turning off yourself to the world in an effort to achieve what you want.

• 50:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 50:43Sean Fennessey?

  Now, you might say, how sad, Sean, that this is so interesting to you. But it is very interesting to me because it's one of the only good movies, in my opinion, about how athletes actually are. And I wrote about it 15 years ago, about how much I liked it and how there's very few movies about winter sports. That's just not something you see very often. But I'm not going to make the case that this is one of his 10 essential films, but it is a film. If I were to build an alley.

• 51:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 51:08Sean Fennessey?

  I would consider placing this in my alley.

• 51:10Amanda Dobbins?

  It doesn't need to be locked alone in your alley by itself.

• 51:14Sean Fennessey?

  I want to hear your thoughts. If you want to celebrate it, wonderful.

• 51:17Amanda Dobbins?

  It's totally green for me. It's completely green. I kind of think so too. I mean, it's but.

• 51:21Sean Fennessey?

  That's really interesting. I mean, I'm very heartened to hear you say that.

• 51:24Amanda Dobbins?

  It's an amazing movie about, like, yes, about sports, but also just about

• 51:31Amanda Dobbins?

  ambitious, successful people and kind of how you have to be a psychopath. It is an amazing feat of filmmaking and just they are there, they are skiing. I believe they're mostly in Austria, but they are in Europe and filming through several actual skiing races in the late 60s. So it's sort of like F1, but in 1969. And it looks beautiful.

• 51:54Sean Fennessey?

  It's a good comparison, actually. They're somewhat similar. Downhill Racer is a far superior movie, but it's similar kind of framework.

• 51:59Amanda Dobbins?

  But just in that they use to end, that you get all of these like very exciting, beautiful shots of people going down these mountains. It's beautiful to watch. And then it's a cool movie for Redford to do because he is already. Engaging with, he's, he's not a very likable character in this, or if he, or if he is likable, it's because you're, you know, he's the protagonist and how much you want to root for him is really what the film is about in a lot of ways, but for this early in his career to be, to take on something that is ugly, that spoiler alert, doesn't get the girl, um, that even in the

• 52:44Amanda Dobbins?

  moment of triumph is, is portrayed as a pretty, it, like it's a petty triumph at the end because you're waiting for the, the other guy to go down the hill and they have that moment of recognition. So it's a cool move for him and a cool, uh, like demonstrates an early understanding, understanding of who he is, what his career is, what he's good at, and how to turn it on its head to do something interesting.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  Totally badass. I'm down with it. All the way. Green.

• 53:14Sean Fennessey?

  I fucking love it. This is gonna be really hard though, guys.

• 53:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I mean.

• 53:17Sean Fennessey?

  Downhill racer and this is gonna be hard. Um, uh, okay. Let's just leave it at that. Other than to say the, the final point you made is the one, the reason, the case I would have made for it is this is the movie where he determines what his screen persona is, which is that, that taciturn quality that you described. He really carves it out here. Okay. Next movie, 1970 Little Foss and Big Halsey. Uh, this is a Sidney J Fury movie about two motorcycle racers.

• 53:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 53:43Sean Fennessey?

  It's not very good in my opinion.

• 53:44Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  I thought it was better than I, than I thought it was going to be.

• 53:48Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  I had not seen it before and I, and I kind of enjoyed it. And I, one of the things I really enjoyed about it is, uh, Redford's performance. He, uh, embraces, uh, a more animal side of his, uh, nature and of his sexuality in this movie. He does most of this movie without his shirt on. He's a son of a bitch in the HUD tradition. Uh, and, uh, I think it's one of the loosest, uh, Redford performances. He's very, uh, he doesn't really exhibit a lot of that clenched quality that we see in a lot of other movies. He seems very loose. He seems very free. He

• 54:29Speaker 03

  seems like he's improvising. He seems like he's enjoying playing the son of a bitch. Uh, he said himself.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  It was the best script he had ever read.

• 54:40Sean Fennessey?

  Charles Eastman.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  It was one of the few scripts at the time, published in paperback form.

• 54:47Speaker 03

  Charles Eastman was the brother of the screenwriter, the woman who wrote Five Easy Pieces. They were brother and sister. And so, there's a part of me when I see Little Fawcett and Big Halsey, there's just, there was at that time, a kind of existential movie, usually rural, men and cars, men and women and motorcycles. Even Downhill Racer somewhat falls into this category, and it includes movies like Electroglide in Blue, and Five Easy Pieces, and Cockfighter. And they are kind of dreamy, they're not, there's no plot, there's no story to follow.

• 55:28Sean Fennessey?

  Men want to go fast and get away from their problems.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:31Sean Fennessey?

  It's a great subgenre film.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance approach. I found it compelling in that regard. I'm not at all advocating for it to go into the Hall of Fame, but I was delighted to find something I liked better than I thought I was gonna like.

• 55:46Sean Fennessey?

  Appreciate your advocacy.

• 55:50Sean Fennessey?

  1972 Jeremiah Johnson. So this is a reunion with Sidney Pollack. This is a mountain man survival film, a film that Sidney Pollack staked his career and finances on.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  Right, mortgaged his house.

• 56:06Sean Fennessey?

  He felt he absolutely needed to do this with Redford. Redford, you would not think would be the right fit per se for this part. This has become, for two reasons, I think, one of the more iconic movies of the 70s. One, it kind of kicks off this like, this mountain man revival idea, and two, it's becoming a legendary internet meme.

• 56:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 56:25Sean Fennessey?

  The nod in this film.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  But apparently a lot of people thought was Zach Galifianakis.

• 56:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I did for a long time. I learned that before preparing for this podcast, I want to be clear, I've known that for several years, but the first two years of the meme, I thought it was Zach Galifianakis.

• 56:40Sean Fennessey?

  This movie I actually haven't seen in some time, so I don't know if I can speak specifically to it. I remember liking it and not loving it, but you can see why it's a big hit. I think...

• 56:51Sean Fennessey?

  I have a lot of thoughts about him and Pollock and what they do for each other and what they don't do for each other. And I do think that sometimes they can indulge the dullest parts of their personalities. And I look at some of the movies that they made, and then I look at some of the movies they made with other filmmakers and other actors, and it's their comfort actually maybe like works against them at times. Or they're more comfortable being patient together, which I respect, but doesn't always make my favorite movies. Nevertheless, I do recognize that this is a very iconic film, and it's very well liked. So what is the, what do you guys say?

• 57:24Speaker 03

  What are your thoughts on Jeremiah Johnson?

• 57:27Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, in the, in the same way that you described like Little Fouse and Big Halsey as a genre of, you know, men want to go fast and get away from their problems. They're like, men need to like go be in nature and get away from their problems and be manly. I'm like, I'm like, that's cool, but I don't care that much. So this is, it's sort of a subject matter issue. I do also think that we're perhaps overweighting the, the film for the meme, you know, it has really taken on a second and, and third life, and it's a great meme. But, um, were you old enough to see this in theaters?

• 57:57Speaker 03

  I did not see this in theaters.

• 58:00Sean Fennessey?

  This movie was a very big hit at the time, by the way.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  Very big, big box office. And I rewatched it in preparation for this podcast and I, I mean,

• 58:11Speaker 03

  love it. I would make it green. I love this movie. I, I love it in terms of Redford's career because there is, there is some real myth building here, right? He is really the hero of this movie. And, and the, the hero in this movie becomes a legend. And I think with a lot of movie stars, there is an early movie in their career where they, where they, where they say, all right, I'm going to own this. I own the legend. I will take that on. And I think that's very present in Jeremiah Johnson.

• 58:41Amanda Dobbins?

  We can't make both downhill racer and Jeremiah Johnson green.

• 58:45Sean Fennessey?

  This is what I was getting at.

• 58:46Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I know. Well, I, you know.

• 58:48Sean Fennessey?

  You guys jumped to green on downhill racer.

• 58:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, we can always undo it.

• 58:52Sean Fennessey?

  We got nine more 70s movies to talk about. Well.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  We could make Jeremiah Johnson. I think that downhill racer should be green and Jeremiah Johnson should be yellow.

• 59:02Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, we'll do that. We'll start with that. Uh, this is, that was the first of three films that he makes in 1972. The next film that he makes is The Candidate.

• 59:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, this is, this adds as a green.

• 59:11Sean Fennessey?

  This also happens to be one of my favorite films of all time.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  It's a great movie.

• 59:14Sean Fennessey?

  So, this is a film in which he plays an aspiring politician who has plunged quickly into a race and we see, what feels like real time him going from a very unlikely figure in this political election to someone who could very well win. And what does that mean? And what are the specific steps that need to happen for him to win? And then what are the ramifications of the decisions that he and his team are making? This is his reunion with Michael Ritchie. Peter Boyle plays campaign manager figure. Very funny, very insightful, very prescient film. One of the loosest Redford movies. Um, I think the idea that this guy is kind of figuring it out in real time is really well portrayed by him.

• 59:58Sean Fennessey?

  And one of the great endings ever. One of the great final lines in movie history.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  Academy Award for Best Screenplay for Jeremy Lerner.

• 1:00:06Sean Fennessey?

  So, this movie, I think, you know, for the physical media heads, this is a painful one.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  Oh, man, is it ever.

• 1:00:14Sean Fennessey?

  This is, there's only one DVD version available in a snap case.

• 1:00:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Really?

• 1:00:19Sean Fennessey?

  Which makes me want to die.

• 1:00:20Amanda Dobbins?

  So a snap case is just the traditional plastic case?

• 1:00:23Sean Fennessey?

  It's the paper case. It's a cardboard case. I do.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  See, I bought it on whatever the fuck, uh, Amazon or whatever to re-watch it for this. It was so depressing.

• 1:00:34Sean Fennessey?

  It sucks. It's so annoying. And it's a beautiful movie. Uh, no, it's like, it's not important for this conversation.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Yes, it's just some ugly, uglier plastic than normal.

• 1:00:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:00:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's one of the grails where it's like people, film fans, would like to have this movie look more beautiful than it is and, it's just a very insightful and entertaining movie that I think holds up pretty darn well 50 years later. And I don't know if, maybe in part because of that physical media thing, it doesn't have quite the reputation. It still has kind of hidden gem reputation, but I think it's one of his best performances and a darn good movie. I think yellow is fair.

• 1:01:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:01:11Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, you know, I don't, what are your thoughts?

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Uh, yellow, sure.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  I'm more, I lean more toward green in these early movies, but I understand we've got a long way to go.

• 1:01:22Amanda Dobbins?

  The Candidate is a Sean movie, and I saw it because it's one of your favorite movies.

• 1:01:28Sean Fennessey?

  This is frequently in my top four on Letterboxd.

• 1:01:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And I know it is that. And so I also, to your point about, you know, myth-making, or at least that I always associated as a core part of Redford figuring out his stardom and negotiating with his stardom, which, you know, to me is interesting. I like the meta-text. So I kind of assumed it would be green, but we can yellow it for now.

• 1:01:52Sean Fennessey?

  The other thing that I like about it very quickly is that it's a confirmation of his relationship to politics, which is that he is so ambivalent, if not utterly frustrated by bureaucracy and the necessity, like the impossibility of change inside of systems, that he's like, the only way you can do it is do it yourself. The only way you can do it is get in front of a microphone if you're powerful and say what you think, or start something yourself and pay it for it with your own money, and don't try to do this, because this is a broken-down, bad idea.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  Oh, that's true. He was also a good Democrat, though. Let's not

• 1:02:25Sean Fennessey?

  He was.

• 1:02:26Speaker 03

  sugarcoat that. He was a good Democrat.

• 1:02:28Sean Fennessey?

  He supported Bill Bradley in a presidential election.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:02:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Let me, can I ask just one follow-up? How often are you changing your Letterboxd top four?

• 1:02:36Sean Fennessey?

  Every month.

• 1:02:38Amanda Dobbins?

  But, so it's like on the calendar?

• 1:02:39Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:02:40Amanda Dobbins?

  It's like, okay, but you said that with confidence.

• 1:02:43Sean Fennessey?

  I have a voice inside of me.

• 1:02:44Amanda Dobbins?

  That you have a, you have an alert. What, like what time?

• 1:02:47Sean Fennessey?

  Like Mr. Redford, I'm a man of great ambition and what I do every day.

• 1:02:50Amanda Dobbins?

  How often are you changing your Letterboxd four?

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Not changing it.

• 1:02:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  Done in collaboration with Carrie. We have our Letterboxd account together.

• 1:02:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  So, yeah, done in collaboration with her. But we don't, we don't mess with it.

• 1:03:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  We will at some point. I'll probably change it up.

• 1:03:06Amanda Dobbins?

  No, it's fine. I just, he tossed that off like there was just some sort of schedule. And I suspect that there is, but he'll never admit it.

• 1:03:15Sean Fennessey?

  Simply not true. There are no reminders. I'm just acting on instinct at all times. The Candidate is yellow. 1972, The Hot Rock, Peter Yates heist comedy starring Redford and George Segal in a quartet of bank robbers or would-be bank robbers.

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  Bank robbers.

• 1:03:34Sean Fennessey?

  Bank rob- bank robbers.

• 1:03:36Speaker 03

  Ju- jewel thieves.

• 1:03:37Sean Fennessey?

  Jewel thieves, jewel thieves, thank you, jewel thieves.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  I mean, not to be that guy, but.

• 1:03:41Sean Fennessey?

  No, you're right, jewel thieves.

• 1:03:44Speaker 03

  I'm going off the dome from here on out.

• 1:03:45Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Sean Fennessey?

  Highly entertaining film.

• 1:03:48Amanda Dobbins?

  This is one of those, like, we don't have room for it, but a classic.

• 1:03:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Really, really good. And I do also feel when Redford died, a lot of people, you know, we talked about all the great ones, and then they're like, have you ever seen The Hot Rock? Because that's a real one. It is.

• 1:04:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, this is going right down Sean's alley.

• 1:04:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Sean Fennessey?

  This movie. I told you, I saw this at the New Bev on the big screen, maybe 10 years ago, and I had that same reaction. I was like, this is one of the best movies of the 70s. It's incredibly fun. It's light on its feet. Redford's very good. You don't like it.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 1:04:18Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, you're shaking your head like you're gonna reject it.

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  In fact, I broke down and bought that goddamn Twilight Time blue on, uh, I bought it on eBay. I don't want to tell you how much I paid for it. It's an embarrassing amount of money.

• 1:04:33Sean Fennessey?

  I told Tracy that after I saw it at the New Bev years ago, I bought it right away. But it wasn't Twilight Time. This company still existed. And now, this is a very hard movie to find.

• 1:04:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:04:42Sean Fennessey?

  On physical.

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  I tracked down a new copy on eBay.

• 1:04:45Sean Fennessey?

  Kudos.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  New, still in the plastic on eBay, and rewatched it just a couple of days ago, and it's fantastic.

• 1:04:50Sean Fennessey?

  A lot of fun. Really funny Ron Liebman in this movie. Really funny.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  The, uh, the walk that Redford does at the end of this movie, after he leaves and he's, spoiler alert. After he's got the gem in his pocket, the walk, the, the physical, the physicalization of joy and satisfaction is a marvel. It's to be studied. I mean, it's really something else. You cannot watch it and not just have a shit-eating grin on your face the whole time you're watching him do that.

• 1:05:24Amanda Dobbins?

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• 1:05:53Sean Fennessey?

  We haven't even gotten to like most of the all time classics.

• 1:05:55Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I know.

• 1:05:56Sean Fennessey?

  This is gonna be a problem.

• 1:05:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so it has to, Hot Rock can be yellow.

• 1:05:59Sean Fennessey?

  Hot Rock can be yellow.

• 1:05:59Amanda Dobbins?

  That's fine.

• 1:06:00Sean Fennessey?

  It's probably not gonna go in. 1973, The Sting.

• 1:06:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Sean Fennessey?

  This film won Best Picture.

• 1:06:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, but so did other things that he was involved in.

• 1:06:07Sean Fennessey?

  He was also nominated for Best Actor for this film. It is his biggest box office success of all time.

• 1:06:12Speaker 03

  It's totally green.

• 1:06:13Sean Fennessey?

  It has to go in. I am, I'm a big fan of this movie, but I do not think it is like a five star masterpiece. Our producer, Jack, just saw it for the first time and he was like, I've been waiting my whole life to see this movie. In part because it has that wonderful reveal that you were talking about when you saw it as an eight year old. I do think a third and fifth and ninth viewings are a little bit less compelling for me personally.

• 1:06:37Speaker 03

  Chris Ryan said he thought it was better than Bush casting the Sundance Kid.

• 1:06:40Sean Fennessey?

  That's something I don't understand.

• 1:06:41Amanda Dobbins?

  That's wilding.

• 1:06:42Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, I don't understand that.

• 1:06:43Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, we can't be responsible for all of his opinions.

• 1:06:46Sean Fennessey?

  But I agree that this thing has to go in. Let's continue. Let's talk about The Way We Were.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  Okay, I just want to point out, 1972, Jeremiah Johnson, The Candidate, The Hot Rock. 1973, The Way We Were and The Sting.

• 1:07:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  Who, who, who ever had a two year run like this?

• 1:07:06Sean Fennessey?

  Unmatched.

• 1:07:07Speaker 03

  Right? There's nobody else ever.

• 1:07:09Amanda Dobbins?

  It's out of insane. It's out of control. It's completely insane.

• 1:07:11Sean Fennessey?

  That is a good episode of this show, is two year runs. I've always wanted to do a series on the best runs of all time, but that period of five movies in 24 months and the quality of those movies and the success of those movies is stunning. So The Way We Were, you.

• 1:07:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28Sean Fennessey?

  Go ahead, though, I'll lay out.

• 1:07:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, he is Hubble Gardner to me and, and I think to many, many people. I think I first saw The Way We Were because it was. There was an homage to it in a episode of Sex and the City.

• 1:07:42Sean Fennessey?

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:43Amanda Dobbins?

  And they, um, and Mr. Big and Carrie are outside the, the Plaza as they are. And she says, your girl is lovely, lovely Hubble. And I was like, well, what's that about? Um, but I think that there is no better movie ever made about they're just like, the really handsome, kind of perfect guy who's just out of reach. And he can't, and it's never gonna work. And even he wants it to work and he thinks he can be more interesting and he thinks he can be different. And you know, that the short story that Hubble writes, um, that I think it's called the All American Smile. And it's, you know, sort of, there's a self-loathing quality to Hubble.

• 1:08:27Amanda Dobbins?

  And he's so interested in the Barbara Streisand character and it's, but, but like, at the end, he's just kind of a cuck, like he is, like he can't live up to what he's supposed to do. And then the movie totally falls apart or doesn't fall apart, but like, I, it's not clear why he can, he just like builds a crib and then never sees, uh, his daughter ever again. I don't totally, you know?

• 1:08:51Sean Fennessey?

  Not relatable to me.

• 1:08:52Amanda Dobbins?

  We could, we could do a rewrite or maybe just don't build the crib. But I mean, it's a pretty iconic role.

• 1:09:00Sean Fennessey?

  Um, smash sensation film. One of the biggest movies in the 1970s. True. Sidney Pollack again.

• 1:09:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's fine.

• 1:09:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, I mean, I know, men don't get this. Men, men really don't get this. This is like, I mean, it's true.

• 1:09:12Sean Fennessey?

  It's not bad. I'm not trying, I'm not criticizing it. I, I, I think it's good.

• 1:09:16Speaker 03

  I'm gonna criticize it.

• 1:09:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, great.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  Uh, uh, and I don't think it's, I don't think it is a gender thing, actually. I watched it with Carrie recently. We kind of came away feeling the same way about it. I had seen much of it or all of it on TV before, but we sat down and watched the 4K, which I own. And we watched it and we kind of came away with the same response, which was, First of all, he gets Robert Redford, Pollock puts Robert Redford and Barbra Streisand in close up. How much of that movie is a close up of one of the two of them or a two-shot of the two of them? It's just like, you want the biggest movie stars in the world? Here they fucking are. And then I'm gonna give them to you. And that is an achievement. The song works.

• 1:09:59Amanda Dobbins?

  It does.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  The song totally works.

• 1:10:01Sean Fennessey?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  The song hits all the, all the spots inside you it's supposed to hit. The ending works.

• 1:10:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Speaker 03

  The parting of the two of them absolutely works and, and hits you in that place like, oh, the one that got away, all that kind of thing. There were things about this movie that are surprisingly kind of slipshod. The attention to period is nil. The, the attention to characters who are supposed to age 25 years over the course of this thing. They don't change their hair. They're both in.

• 1:10:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, she does. Well, Katie changes her hair and that's like, it's a major plot point. And then at the end, he's like, you went back to your hair.

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 1:10:41Amanda Dobbins?

  It looks great.

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  But they're not even wearing period haircuts.

• 1:10:45Amanda Dobbins?

  But you're right. But it's not about the time period. It's about like her sort of, you know, trying to like assimilate and be like, and then having her normal, her natural hair.

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  Do you buy her activism?

• 1:11:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, yes, more than his. She stands for something.

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  Well, she's not an activist.

• 1:11:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, do I buy Katie's?

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  I don't know. I mean, something about her activism feels like just on the border, not quite, but just on the border of like wacky dame. Do you believe that wacky dame and her socialist ideas? It's like Jerry Lewis.

• 1:11:24Sean Fennessey?

  She would have done, she would have done very well in Mom Donnie's New York is what I'll say. She's a real democratic socialist.

• 1:11:29Speaker 03

  Uh, I just think that stuff has given some short shrift.

• 1:11:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. I mean, everything having to do with the, like, the House of Un-American Activities Committee is, uh, it's not explored. It's pretty, um...

• 1:11:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Confusing? I mean, I know what's going on because I understand history, but if you didn't know anything about the movie and sat down and watched it, we're like, okay, so who's in trouble and why?

• 1:11:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:11:55Amanda Dobbins?

  And what is he doing or not doing?

• 1:11:57Speaker 03

  There's a recent Streisand cut, right? Do you know about this? There's a recent Streisand cut of the movie that puts a lot of the House Un-American Activities Committee stuff back into the third act.

• 1:12:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Pollock was against, Pollock said no. Pollock didn't want it.

• 1:12:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Sydney.

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  So it's not a director's cut, it's a Streisand cut.

• 1:12:15Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting, Babs.

• 1:12:16Speaker 03

  Some people think it's better. Some people.

• 1:12:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I, I, I watch it.

• 1:12:20Speaker 03

  Argue that it's better.

• 1:12:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I believe.

• 1:12:23Sean Fennessey?

  I saw this movie many years ago. I thought it was perfectly fine and I haven't revisited it.

• 1:12:26Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't have a heart.

• 1:12:27Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, fair enough.

• 1:12:29Speaker 03

  It works and it was clearly a cultural.

• 1:12:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Sean Fennessey?

  So this is probab- maybe the signature romantic feature of his career. There's probably one other one that we can make the case for, though it's not also not a film I love. So in, in that vein, Redford, one of the heart throbs of the second half of the 20th century.

• 1:12:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Sean Fennessey?

  I think if you spoke to a lot of people who would identify themselves as Robert Redford fans, it wasn't usually like weedy little Blu-ray collectors like me. It was like, it was women.

• 1:13:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:13:01Sean Fennessey?

  They, women loved Robert Redford.

• 1:13:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Sean Fennessey?

  And, and I think this is the reason why, this movie.

• 1:13:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Our, our friend and colleague, Julia Lemon, is a huge Robert Redford fan. She and her mother both. And like, I think on down days, they get together and watch Robert Redford films. I texted her, I said, what is your pick? Like, what's the number one? What do I have to put in? Instant, the way we work.

• 1:13:20Sean Fennessey?

  So I think for that reason, this has to be green.

• 1:13:22Speaker 03

  I, I do too.

• 1:13:23Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, great.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  I, I can argue against the quality. Quality of the movie and still say it's.

• 1:13:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I agree with you. And the, the script, it seems like they did cut a lot out. It kind of falls apart. The motivations at end, it's like, why can't they make it work? I mean, I don't really know, other than that the movie's arc is that it is supposed to be, the juice is that.

• 1:13:45Amanda Dobbins?

  She's kinda out of grasp. He can't really make it work, but practically.

• 1:13:48Speaker 03

  There's not a lot of heat, right? There's, I mean, there's some soft focus making out in front of the fireplace, but there's not a lot of like, I have to have you. And so you're wondering why they do keep going back to each other as well.

• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  And supposedly, he really did not want to do the movie, right? I'm pretty sure I remember reading it took him a lot of convincing to end up doing this. Also, just two of the hottest people who've ever lived on planet Earth.

• 1:14:13Amanda Dobbins?

  She's so good in that too.

• 1:14:14Speaker 03

  And he wore two pairs of underwear while shooting.

• 1:14:17Sean Fennessey?

  To protect himself?

• 1:14:20Speaker 03

  He wanted to maintain a professional.

• 1:14:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:14:24Sean Fennessey?

  There's not a lot of stories of him trying to bed down his co-stars.

• 1:14:28Speaker 03

  It's one of the reasons they loved working with him.

• 1:14:30Sean Fennessey?

  Unlike most of his contemporaries, he was married for a long period of time.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37Sean Fennessey?

  Reportedly very faithful and actresses loved him.

• 1:14:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. He also, I mean, Jane Fonda and Barbra Streisand, two fearsome women. And I mean that in a complimentary way, but like, those are not people. I mean, I guess many people did, you know, put them through issues. I've read the whole Jane Fonda biography twice, but.

• 1:14:57Sean Fennessey?

  Very strong in their careers.

• 1:14:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly. And, and, and forces of nature, which I admire.

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  After he died, they both came forward with statements, what a gentleman, and you know.

• 1:15:06Sean Fennessey?

  Um, okay. So the way we were is green. That means The Great Gatsby comes in 1974. And, and this is a, this is a big miss. This is, this is the beginning of what I'll describe as dull Redford. And there are a lot of dull Redford movies, which is unusual because he's so magnetic.

• 1:15:23Speaker 03

  Did you, did you watch it for this?

• 1:15:24Sean Fennessey?

  I've seen it before. I didn't watch it for this.

• 1:15:26Amanda Dobbins?

  This was shown to us in high school. We did also read The Great Gatsby.

• 1:15:30Sean Fennessey?

  Probably was shown to me as well.

• 1:15:31Amanda Dobbins?

  But then it, it has reached like, this is a history textbook level.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  I watched it for this. Just fucking stop with Gatsby. Just fucking stop. It's a great book. Just let it be a book. Stop it.

• 1:15:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I think that this is, it's the same miscalculation over and over again, which is because of the way that he is described in the first half of the book, we keep thinking it needs to be the most beautiful movie star in the Jay Gatsby part. And that's not it. It's Jay Gatsby is not cool. He is a loser.

• 1:16:03Speaker 03

  He's a loser.

• 1:16:04Sean Fennessey?

  You're supposed to know he's a loser.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:16:06Sean Fennessey?

  And, and this movie also, it makes the same miscalculation that in my opinion, the Baz Luhrmann movie makes as well. There's some interesting stuff in the Baz Luhrmann movie. I don't hate that movie, but anytime I see this adapted, it's always like the golden god is playing Jay Gatsby. And I, I think that's a misread of the book. Anyway, the movie's not very good. Francis Ford Coppola also wrote this screenplay.

• 1:16:27Speaker 03

  Should have been an American director.

• 1:16:29Sean Fennessey?

  It's Jack Clayton. Yes.

• 1:16:30Speaker 03

  An English director and should have been an American.

• 1:16:33Sean Fennessey?

  That's red. 1975, Three Days of the Condor.

• 1:16:37Sean Fennessey?

  No, this is green.

• 1:16:38Speaker 03

  Instant green.

• 1:16:38Amanda Dobbins?

  It's gotta be.

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  Total, total green. The best of the Redford Pollock collaboration.

• 1:16:43Sean Fennessey?

  Totally agree.

• 1:16:44Amanda Dobbins?

  So, so good.

• 1:16:45Sean Fennessey?

  Brilliantly constructed adaptation of a novel.

• 1:16:48Amanda Dobbins?

  This is, I was gonna say, this is the opposite of you being like, when I'm feeling down and I need a two minute pick me up, I just go back and watch the, the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid scene where I was like, I don't really need to watch all of Three Days of the Condor, but I will just watch the assassination scene. I just said, and it is, it is brutal and perfectly executed. And that's also Redford is not in it. That is just actually Pollock, you know, finding, finding magic. And maybe to your point about they don't bring out the best in each other when Redford is off screen is when he can really achieve greatness. But no, Redford's amazing in it. They did Faye Dunaway wrong, but you know, what do you have to do?

• 1:17:30Sean Fennessey?

  Not the, not the best, most sensitive portrayal of, of that character. And she was a huge star at the time too. But the movie itself is riveting, also prescient. Fits very neatly in this period of paranoia. Pollock didn't make a ton of movies like this. The Firm is kind of like this. They're kind of spiritual sequels.

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  And Pollock had said after this, when people tried to ascribe a kind of social importance to the movie regarding politics, et cetera, he said, no, no, no, no. We, we, we were making a thriller.

• 1:18:00Sean Fennessey?

  This is a thriller.

• 1:18:01Speaker 03

  This is a thriller.

• 1:18:03Sean Fennessey?

  I'm glad to hear you both love it and think it's a green.

• 1:18:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I'm sure that's convenient for him to say, but the ending in particular, another amazing ending.

• 1:18:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, The New York Times.

• 1:18:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And also one that twists your certainty of, of up is, you know,

• 1:18:18Sean Fennessey?

  Kind of the editing of its day.

• 1:18:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Speaker 03

  Have you ever read John Lithgow's memoir?

• 1:18:23Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  You should read it and just if. For nothing else, to hear him rip Cliff Robertson a new asshole.

• 1:18:32Sean Fennessey?

  He wouldn't be the first. Now, this is a situation in which he is perfectly cast.

• 1:18:37Speaker 03

  Perfect.

• 1:18:38Sean Fennessey?

  In this era, he's cast in a lot of movies in which he's meant to be sympathetic. And he does not like seem like a very nice man. But he's really, he's really good in this.

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  He's very good. Max Francineau, I mean, there's a lot of great stuff. I mean, yes, the romance is the thing that was like, okay, that's the kind of thriller conceit.

• 1:18:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  We wouldn't do that now. I don't think we would at least try to build in a little more.

• 1:19:02Amanda Dobbins?

  They could just, but there, that first scene, once he takes in her apartment and he gives her the card and they're yelling at each other and she's like, I'm scared. I am too. They're really, really good together. And then they just tap to make out because it was 1975.

• 1:19:19Speaker 03

  May I take a moment to speak to the listeners?

• 1:19:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:19:22Speaker 03

  Certainly.

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  There's a 4K.

• 1:19:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:19:26Speaker 03

  On Kino Lorber. Three Days of the Condor.

• 1:19:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Is this your new thing? You're just doing ASMR?

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  Do you like movies? If you like movies, buy that for $20 and own it and keep it on your shelf.

• 1:19:39Amanda Dobbins?

  You could sell this on OnlyFans, dude. Don't give it away for free.

• 1:19:42Sean Fennessey?

  I did, I did see this movie at the Arrow two years ago, projected on 35. And it was beautiful. It was so good. This is a, this is a great movie if you haven't seen it. Okay, 75, The Great Waldo Pepper, A Reunion with George Roy Hill. Movie about a 1920s, 1930s aerial artist in the aftermath of World War I, who is not fortunate enough, I guess, to fly in World War I. And so he pursues this career and this degree of fame. Always been a bit of a curious movie. Pretty successful at the box office.

• 1:20:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, hit.

• 1:20:13Sean Fennessey?

  Margot Kidder, Susan Sarandon. Who is his opponent? I can't recall. Is it Bo Svenson?

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:20:20Sean Fennessey?

  Bo Svenson.

• 1:20:21Speaker 03

  In like his first, maybe his first big movie. And Bo Svenson's very good in this film.

• 1:20:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, um, never been one of my faves. I think it's cool. I, I, I, there's a great chapter about it in William Goldman's Adventures in the Screen Trade, and how much he liked this movie and how interesting he thought it was and how proud of it he was. But it didn't quite attain the iconic status of some of their other collaborations.

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  Goldman also suggests that he knows the reason the movie failed, and it's because of a narrative decision he makes regarding the death of a character midway through. And I think Goldman is absolutely wrong in his estimation of why the movie doesn't work. Uh, it doesn't work. There are good things about it. It's not a bad watch, but certainly not Hall of Fame.

• 1:21:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, they just, they spend a lot of time flying.

• 1:21:05Speaker 03

  A lot of time, right?

• 1:21:06Amanda Dobbins?

  And it does seem sort of, I think that all the filmmakers were very infatuated with actually getting the footage of people flying and recreating these aerial battles and being true to, you know, whatever formations, which like, listen, I'm the world's number one Top Gun Maverick fan. Like, I appreciate fidelity in airplanes, but it's slow. Uh, so, and they, they're just floating up in the air for a long time.

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  You suppose that because of the way I feel about Great Waldo Pepper, that's why I've never seen Top Gun Maverick?

• 1:21:37Amanda Dobbins?

  You are invited to our house anytime to watch Top Gun Maverick.

• 1:21:41Speaker 03

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:21:41Amanda Dobbins?

  It will be me, my three-year-old son, and you.

• 1:21:44Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 1:21:44Amanda Dobbins?

  And he'll narrate it for you.

• 1:21:45Speaker 03

  That sounds great.

• 1:21:45Sean Fennessey?

  You're a cool man. Uh, that's Red. 1976, All the President's Men.

• 1:21:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Green.

• 1:21:50Speaker 03

  Totally green.

• 1:21:51Sean Fennessey?

  Now, this is obviously green for a variety of reasons.

• 1:21:53Amanda Dobbins?

  It's the best.

• 1:21:53Sean Fennessey?

  I would argue, aside from this being one of the most watchable films ever made, that Redford seeking out this material and identifying that this should be a film before the book is even published, and knowing that he should be Woodward. Is is one of the great acts of star prodeusorial work in movie history.

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  Good Democrat, too, right? Good Democrat at work.

• 1:22:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, well, Nixon was already on his way down as this was all happening. But, uh, yeah, this movie's a banger. It's a it's a total classic.

• 1:22:24Amanda Dobbins?

  I would also add, when Redford died, many people were posting stills from Three Days of the Condor and specifically the peacoat and talking about, you know, how that's the hottest that Redford has ever been on screen. And I would just like to state clearly and definitively that Robert Redford shirtless, no, no, no, not this scene, shirtless with the gold chain, trying to find his pen to write something down in All the President's Men, I think also while the music's playing very loudly, is the hottest that Robert Redford ever was on screen.

• 1:22:55Speaker 03

  Forty years old when this movie gets made.

• 1:22:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, you know.

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:22:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Made it work.

• 1:23:00Speaker 03

  I think I think there's.

• 1:23:01Sean Fennessey?

  That hurts to hear.

• 1:23:03Speaker 03

  I actually think there's an argument that it's one of the greatest American movies ever made.

• 1:23:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree.

• 1:23:09Speaker 03

  I think it's just superb from top to bottom. I I can find no fault with it. I I had a friend who watched it not long ago and she spoke to me and she said, what is the difference between Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman and the guys in the office, who they work for, Martin Ballsum, Jason Robards, Jack Warden, et cetera? What's the difference? She said, because there's such a difference between what it is to be a man, right? It's a it is a pretty male-heavy movie. What it is to be a man. And my my best explanation was, those guys are veterans.

• 1:23:49Speaker 03

  Those guys, all those guys, not only veterans, but and Hal Holbrook, too, I believe combat veterans. And Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman represent the first real generation that did not come from that tradition of you, you know, you.

• 1:24:06Sean Fennessey?

  You got drafted.

• 1:24:07Speaker 03

  You get drafted or you you do your service, one way or another.

• 1:24:11Sean Fennessey?

  That's interesting.

• 1:24:12Speaker 03

  It is interesting. It's especially interesting when you get to a place later in the career, right, where Mr. Redford is is the older guy and he's passing the baton to younger guys along the way. It's like, well, there are no veterans here, right? We're in a different realm of human experience.

• 1:24:29Sean Fennessey?

  You're referring to Lions for Lambs, I think, when you say that.

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  Uh, or I'm referring to Spiking.

• 1:24:34Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:24:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, well, All the President's Men is in. That's nice. Big win for my guy Alan Pacula, pride of Long Island. 1977.

• 1:24:42Speaker 03

  Oh, is that right?

• 1:24:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. Uh, A Bridge Too Far. 1977.

• 1:24:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Did I watch this?

• 1:24:47Speaker 03

  This is, again, Chris Ryan. What are you talking about?

• 1:24:49Sean Fennessey?

  This movie's so boring.

• 1:24:50Speaker 03

  This is so fucking dull.

• 1:24:51Sean Fennessey?

  I know. I watched this during COVID with my wife and halfway through she was like, how long is this? And that's not never a good sign. Um, this movie has an extraordinary cast.

• 1:25:00Speaker 03

  Oh, too extraordinary.

• 1:25:02Sean Fennessey?

  It's written by, uh, by William Goldman. It's directed by Richard Attenborough. It is one of the most, all of the pieces of the puzzle are spread out on the floor, but none of them fit together. Movies ever made, in my opinion. Now, this movie has a lot of defenders, a lot of fans. Did you revisit this?

• 1:25:16Amanda Dobbins?

  No, because I Googled it. And to answer Eileen's question, it's three hours long. And I was like, I'm out. We don't have room for this.

• 1:25:23Sean Fennessey?

  Well, because an hour and a half in, you're like, what, when is this gonna get started? What are we doing?

• 1:25:27Speaker 03

  I learned something when I saw this movie at the movie theater with my parents and we left and we were talking. My dad was talking me through why it didn't work, what was wrong with it. And he talks about a moment where Elliot Gould is about to leave a little, lead a little troop of soldiers across a bridge. And the bridge gets blown up and he turns around and he looks toward the camera and he says, he's got a cigar in his mouth. And he says, shit. And dad said to me, he said, wouldn't it be more interesting if he turned around and said, poo poo?

• 1:26:00Speaker 03

  Simply making the point that the expected is, is not, is not always great. And you should try to find the unexpected in the expected moment.

• 1:26:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's a movie made in the seventies. It feels like it's trying to be in the 1950s. And, um, I'll just, I just want to read the cast really quickly, just for posterity's sake. Cause it's, it's Dirk Bogart, James Caan, Michael Caine, Sean Connery, Edward Fox, Elliot Gould, Gene Hackman, Anthony Hopkins, Laurence Olivier, Ryan O'Neal, Robert Redford, Maximilian Schell, Liv Oldman.

• 1:26:28Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, too many.

• 1:26:30Sean Fennessey?

  That's, that's 15 screen icons.

• 1:26:33Speaker 03

  Never good. Never good.

• 1:26:35Sean Fennessey?

  Anyway, um, I do miss, I will say this. I do miss when Hollywood was like, we need to put everybody together in a movie.

• 1:26:41Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 1:26:42Sean Fennessey?

  You know, it's a men, men, men, men, a world.

• 1:26:44Amanda Dobbins?

  It's called The Odyssey, coming soon.

• 1:26:45Sean Fennessey?

  You're right. You're absolutely right. And honestly, I, I anticipated.

• 1:26:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Sean Fennessey?

  And it could turn out to be a disaster, but I anticipated. Okay. 1979, The Electric Horseman.

• 1:26:58Sean Fennessey?

  Very strange and entertaining movie. This is a light comedy about a former rodeo champion who's become a spokesperson for a cereal company and he falls in love with Jane Fonda. Their fourth collaboration. Yes, and is this the fifth movie with Pollock at this point? I think it might be the fifth movie. Another movie that was a big hit. I would say a little lower on the scale of greatness. This is kind of a, kind of a lark.

• 1:27:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, not available on streaming.

• 1:27:30Sean Fennessey?

  No kidding? Wow, I also own this movie. I don't own it. Wow. Saw it in the movie theater.

• 1:27:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:27:37Sean Fennessey?

  Thought it was fine. Thought it was fine.

• 1:27:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I, I would just like to say I am pro mustache for Redford.

• 1:27:43Sean Fennessey?

  He looks good. He looks good, very charming. Loved being on horseback.

• 1:27:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, we'll, we'll come back to that.

• 1:27:49Sean Fennessey?

  1980 Brubaker. Watched this movie this morning, not for the first time. This is a movie that has a great premise. And I wonder what it could have been if things went a little bit differently. So it's a movie about a, a man who arrives at a, like it's a high security prison that is apparently quite corrupt. And we start seeing the prison through his eyes for the first 30 minutes of the movie. And I'll spoil the twist because it spoiled on the poster of the movie if you've ever seen it, even though it should not have been in my opinion. But this man that Redford plays who's entering this prison is in fact the warden of the prison and is observing what's transpiring in this corrupt prison so that he can figure out how to fix the problems of the place.

• 1:28:32Sean Fennessey?

  And then the second half of the movie is about him attempting to change those, change, to make change. And he finds that it's hard to make change in this bureaucratic world that we live in. The movie was supposed to be directed by Bob Rafelson and he was fired after 10 days. Bob Rafelson coming out of the incredible swell of the late 60s and 1970s where he had a tremendous amount of success as a director and he gets fired and he gets replaced by Stuart Rosenberg, who directed Cool Hand Luke. And this movie wants to have some Cool Hand Luke energy. Never totally gets there in my opinion.

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  Do you own this movie?

• 1:29:09Sean Fennessey?

  I do.

• 1:29:10Speaker 03

  I don't. I saw it at the movie theater.

• 1:29:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow.

• 1:29:12Speaker 03

  It was okay.

• 1:29:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's okay. It's got a great Yafeh Koto performance.

• 1:29:17Speaker 03

  There's a lot of great supporting actors.

• 1:29:18Sean Fennessey?

  Good Morgan Freeman performance. Very, very early Morgan Freeman role. It does feel like a hangover from the 70s movie where they're trying to make a 70s movie and it feels like it's a little out of time. It's not bad.

• 1:29:29Speaker 03

  Emmet Walsh?

• 1:29:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, very good.

• 1:29:31Speaker 03

  Tim McIntyre. You know who Tim McIntyre is?

• 1:29:35Sean Fennessey?

  Tell us.

• 1:29:36Speaker 03

  Well, he also wrote the music for Jeremiah Johnson and he's singing the songs in Jeremiah Johnson. Tim McIntyre and John Rubenstein were actors who basically put together a tape. They knew the story of Jeremiah Johnson and they, they, they made their own tape of their own music and somehow got it to Pollock and that became the score for Jeremiah Johnson, which actually becomes very important in that movie because of course Jeremiah Johnson has an, an overture and an ontract, right? When you see that thing fully done, and they sing the, write the ballad of Jeremiah Johnson

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  very much in that mode of Mythmaker. Anyway, Tim McIntyre, very good, good troubled character actor. He's very good in Brubaker.

• 1:30:24Sean Fennessey?

  Brubaker is going to be red.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

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• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  crack open a can of Nasa Energy and get after it.

• 1:31:14Sean Fennessey?

  1980.

• 1:31:16Sean Fennessey?

  Robert Redford decides he wants to be a director.

• 1:31:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:31:20Sean Fennessey?

  Ordinary People.

• 1:31:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Sean Fennessey?

  Now, I have a great many thoughts about this movie. I did an episode of The Rewatchables about it a few years ago. Deeply emotional film, kind of a keystone, I think, to Robert Redford, the man. Was hugely celebrated in its day, won Best Picture.

• 1:31:37Sean Fennessey?

  And it's just not at all what you would have expected from him, based on his career to that point. It's a real curveball. But he has really good instincts, particularly casting Mary Tyler Moore, really smart move. It's not my favorite movie of his. It's not my favorite directed movie of his. It is very significant in his career. And so I'm curious what you both think of the movie and I'm curious how you feel it fits into the framework of his career.

• 1:32:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it gets, I was gonna say two, and that's unfair to Donald Sutherland, three really amazing performances in Mary Tyler Moore, Timothy Hutton and Donald Sutherland and

• 1:32:16Sean Fennessey?

  And Judd Hirsch.

• 1:32:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Of course, yeah. And there is a surprising sensitivity and like emotional awareness, which, you know, not to take shots at Robert Redford, but he's not exactly like on a therapy couch in all of the movies up to this point. He is playing very like buttoned up, emotionally unavailable people. And so I think it's admirable and interesting that this is what he picks and that he does it so deftly. Like it's a, you know, I hadn't seen it since becoming a mom and that is, that's tough.

• 1:33:01Amanda Dobbins?

  But an amazing Mary Tyler Moore performance, so and it's so significant. I don't know, what would you put in as, are you imagining that we'll save one slot for director?

• 1:33:11Sean Fennessey?

  I think we could do as many as we want to do. I don't know if it's his best directed movie, but it's such an interesting thing for him to choose to do. And it's hard to not, you know, he's someone who who lost his mother at a young age and it really hurt him. And he spoke sparingly about it, but when he does speak about it, it kind of shattered something in him. And this is a movie about grief and not knowing what to do with it.

• 1:33:36Amanda Dobbins?

  He also lost a child.

• 1:33:37Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 1:33:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Very young.

• 1:33:38Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 1:33:38Amanda Dobbins?

  From what we now call SIDS, which, you know. So it's pretty literally, you know, relevant to what he's dealing with or has dealt with. But not something he spoke about beyond this movie, really.

• 1:33:52Sean Fennessey?

  It's also historically kind of a movie history villain, because this is the movie that beat Raging Bull, the Academy Awards, and Raging Bull considered, you know, this, this, the stature of the cinephile, you know, the achievement, and this is kind of a soggy drama, but both movies are good and for different reasons.

• 1:34:10Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not that soggy. I don't know. Tracy, what's the verdict?

• 1:34:13Speaker 03

  I love Ordinary People. I think it's a great movie. I think it should have beat Raging Bull for Best Picture. I think it's a better film and I love Raging Bull. I love a lot about Raging Bull. Clearly, as a technical achievement, it is a marvel and from a performance standpoint, I mean, De Niro is undeniable, which is probably why they committed egregious category fraud by putting Timothy Hutton in Supporting Actor, because he is the lead in Ordinary People.

• 1:34:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  And it is a great performance. He's great in this film.

• 1:34:45Speaker 03

  But Jake LaMotta was a colossal asshole. I know in some ways that's what Raging Bull is about. Some of us who were alive in 1980 and going to see the movie were like, they made a movie about Jake LaMotta? That guy's a colossal asshole. I don't know what we're gonna get out of this.

• 1:35:02Speaker 03

  So I love Raging Bull. It's not to take anything away from that. I just think Ordinary People is a really beautiful, heartfelt, in the best sense of that word, film. And I think it's genuinely affecting and I think it genuinely speaks to the American family. And I just think that's, I not only think it's good, I think it's important. So yeah, it's green for me. I love it.

• 1:35:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, so too.

• 1:35:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, and he won Best Director for it. So historically, we've done, the Oscar winner goes in.

• 1:35:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Ordinary People is green.

• 1:35:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:40Sean Fennessey?

  Let's go back to his film career, because he takes eight years off between directing and projects. 1984, The Natural. So he takes some time off here. In this interregnum, he is trying to buy land in Utah and essentially buys a mountain.

• 1:35:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:56Sean Fennessey?

  And then begins to start to build out what would become the Sundance Institute, which eventually evolves into a film festival and a kind of waystation. And he's pursuing a lot of local activism at this time. He's trying to prevent things from being built and land from being destroyed for the sake of commerce. And it's interesting that after a movie that is so sensitive and emotional and seemingly very personal, that he takes a bit of a break from movies after reaching the mountaintop.

• 1:36:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:36:24Sean Fennessey?

  And he comes back with The Natural, which is also an iconic film and also a film that kind of lives forever. And you mentioned what social media, you know, was being shared in the aftermath. I think for a certain generation of man.

• 1:36:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:38Sean Fennessey?

  This is a very important movie. And I would say maybe not quite my generation, maybe even between us somehow. Like, I think if you're 50, this movie really matters. I like it quite a bit. I think it's quite stately. There's some things I don't, I'm not in love with about it, but it does feel like it is an essential part of his mythology.

• 1:36:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm too young for this one and I love baseball movies and I love Robert Redford. I guess I came to it late and so I think I, I think I came to it after Field of Dreams. And after, I don't know, I, and so I expected it to be some great, like on the field triumph. And everyone's like, oh, you know, Redford is so convincing as a ball player, which he is. Perhaps. But it's really just about some like very involved, like rigged games and a lady shooting him for no reason. Quite a jarring sequence. It's very, I was like, what is going on? And so, and then he is quite old. So I, I know that it's a huge deal.

• 1:37:45Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not my particular, he also, like the Redford performance is like good because it is good because it is very much, you know, it's movie as myth, even, you know, it is made in that very grand, like this, you know, this, this, this is baseball Jesus. But he is playing it like baseball Jesus. I don't know.

• 1:38:06Speaker 03

  Does he bat left in the movie?

• 1:38:08Sean Fennessey?

  I think so.

• 1:38:09Speaker 03

  Cause he's a, he's a lefty.

• 1:38:10Sean Fennessey?

  He does.

• 1:38:11Speaker 03

  He, he does.

• 1:38:12Sean Fennessey?

  He does.

• 1:38:12Speaker 03

  He's lefty in all things other than writing. Have you noticed that? He writes with his right hand. It must've been some like school thing where they made him, like forced him to use his right hand.

• 1:38:21Sean Fennessey?

  My entire father's side of the family is left-handed. My mother's side of the family is all right-handed. And so me and my siblings have all of these awkward things. My brother bats left-handed and writes right-handed. Unusual. Anyway, uh, you like The Natural?

• 1:38:35Speaker 03

  Not especially. I, I'm not a, I mean, I'm a big, uh, Malamud fan. This is based on a Bernard Malamud book, which is much more obscure material than this movie, right? This movie's pretty on the nose, the swelling, is it, is it a Newman? One of the Newmans doing the music, uh, doing this?

• 1:38:54Amanda Dobbins?

  It is, it is Randy because another thing I, when I rewatched it, the, the final scene, that score has been reused.

• 1:39:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:39:03Amanda Dobbins?

  More time. I, I think I know that, that piece of music better than I know the rest of The Natural because.

• 1:39:08Sean Fennessey?

  But that, that Newman score is very, this is the start of really a huge era of Newman making scores like this. But he had, was not really known for making scores like this, this time anyhow.

• 1:39:17Speaker 03

  But he came from a lineage of.

• 1:39:19Sean Fennessey?

  He did, he did. Score writers. Uncle and his cousin and, yeah.

• 1:39:22Speaker 03

  There's a great clip of Robert Duvall on the David Letterman Show. And Letterman is asking him about some of his movies. And he says, "Well, you were in A Great Movie, you were in The Natural, that's a great movie." And Duvall kind of shrugs. And Letterman says, "You don't think it's a great movie?" And Duvall's response is, "Cute at best." That's what Duvall said about the movie.

• 1:39:45Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know, I think it's a little better than cute at best, but I don't have a huge relationship to it. It's just, for this exercise that we do on the show, this movie, which all three of us don't have a huge affection for, is a challenge to the premise. What are we trying to accomplish here? Because this film would be listed among the first five films in any Robert Redford obituary in my, I would imagine, right?

• 1:40:09Speaker 03

  Would it?

• 1:40:10Sean Fennessey?

  I think Roy Hobbs is one of his, let's just do that exercise really quick. Let's go from 10 to 5. All the President's Men.

• 1:40:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Sean Fennessey?

  Butch Cassidy.

• 1:40:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:20Speaker 03

  The Sting.

• 1:40:20Amanda Dobbins?

  The Sting.

• 1:40:21Speaker 03

  Way We Were.

• 1:40:22Sean Fennessey?

  Way We Were. And I would say this movie.

• 1:40:26Sean Fennessey?

  Now, maybe Ordinary People comes in there?

• 1:40:28Amanda Dobbins?

  As like, and the director of Ordinary People?

• 1:40:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yep. But you could, I think I would argue that this is his last iconic screen performance.

• 1:40:40Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not saying it's not his last good performance. He's got a lot of good performances after this, especially in the 2000s.

• 1:40:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I think you're probably right. I think that.

• 1:40:50Sean Fennessey?

  If you post this online and don't put The Natural in people, they're like, "Well, the fuck's The Natural?"

• 1:40:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I know, but that happens all the time.

• 1:40:56Sean Fennessey?

  Alright, alright, alright, I know, I know. Everybody's better than the people on the, that's not the point I'm trying to make. What is the purpose of the exercise? I hear both of you now being like, "Yeah, who cares?"

• 1:41:05Speaker 03

  Look, if the purpose of the exercise was to construct something that's universally recognized as the Hall of Fame, then we can just go fucking, you know, look, you're right. Time Magazine website, or wherever, I don't, does Time Magazine still exist?

• 1:41:19Amanda Dobbins?

  They do, and they actually, they like this podcast, so, yeah. It's a bit Newsweek.

• 1:41:24Speaker 03

  So, we could go on, we could go to the New York Times and say, "What are the, what's the, what are the 10 movies? This is our Hall of Fame."

• 1:41:30Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, The Natural's out.

• 1:41:31Speaker 03

  The Natural is out.

• 1:41:32Sean Fennessey?

  So, The Natural's out, and Out of Africa is also out.

• 1:41:34Speaker 03

  Out of Africa is out.

• 1:41:36Sean Fennessey?

  Out of Africa.

• 1:41:37Amanda Dobbins?

  What's going on?

• 1:41:37Sean Fennessey?

  I watched yesterday, you guys were out partying, frolicking about Hollywood.

• 1:41:42Speaker 03

  We did get to dance. We wanted to dance.

• 1:41:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I danced a little bit.

• 1:41:46Speaker 03

  There wasn't a good dancing situation.

• 1:41:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And we made the slideshow. I just want to let you know as the, yeah, the results came in.

• 1:41:51Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 1:41:52Amanda Dobbins?

  As we were recording.

• 1:41:52Sean Fennessey?

  I'm sitting at home, watching this slop, this Best Picture winner.

• 1:41:56Speaker 03

  You were watching The Jets.

• 1:41:57Sean Fennessey?

  I did watch The Jets as well. I watched The Jets until I couldn't anymore and then I put on Out of Africa. This film made 1985 one Best Picture. It is also a Sidney Pollack production.

• 1:42:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Not my Oscars, you know?

• 1:42:12Sean Fennessey?

  One of the most stately films of the 1980s. A real, I'm putting on David Lean's clothes kind of film.

• 1:42:18Amanda Dobbins?

  It's true.

• 1:42:19Sean Fennessey?

  And is brutally dull. Brutally dull.

• 1:42:22Speaker 03

  There are good things about Out of Africa.

• 1:42:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:42:27Speaker 03

  All I have to say.

• 1:42:27Amanda Dobbins?

  All right.

• 1:42:28Sean Fennessey?

  I assume you feel the same way.

• 1:42:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, no, no. Very boring.

• 1:42:31Sean Fennessey?

  So 1986 Legal Eagles.

• 1:42:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:42:34Sean Fennessey?

  I did not revisit this. I'm sure I saw it on cable as a young person, but you said that you did see it.

• 1:42:37Speaker 03

  I revisited it as well.

• 1:42:39Amanda Dobbins?

  I did. So the one thing I can say about Legal Eagles that recommends it over every single other film on this list is that it is the only film in which Robert Redford performs his version of Singin' in the Rain shirtless in his apartment.

• 1:42:55Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 1:42:55Amanda Dobbins?

  So in that sense.

• 1:42:58Sean Fennessey?

  Huge for you.

• 1:42:58Amanda Dobbins?

  It is, it is a marvel. Otherwise, it's a not good, like, romantic comedy thriller. I mean, they're trying to solve some sort of art heist and.

• 1:43:12Speaker 03

  The comedy thriller is very tricky. It's really not easy to pull off.

• 1:43:18Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and the, the plot keeps, it becomes more and more Baroque. It's, it's, it's, it's not very good. But he, you know, he chimneys his hips a little during the Singin' in the Rain. He does with the, you know, the big come on with the rain. I've got a smile on my face. So I enjoyed revisiting that.

• 1:43:35Sean Fennessey?

  So funny. On paper, you would think that Jim Cash and Jack Epps Jr., the screenwriters of this movie, they had two movies this year. And if you looked on paper and you thought, a romantic thriller with Robert Redford and Debra Winger, and then this movie about these pilots directed by Tony Scott. What's gonna be the bigger movie of those two?

• 1:43:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:43:55Sean Fennessey?

  Probably Legal Eagles, but the other movie is Top Gun.

• 1:43:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:58Sean Fennessey?

  And that was, that was a bigger film. You haven't seen that film.

• 1:44:02Speaker 03

  Top Gun, no, I haven't seen that, but I have seen Legal Eagles, both in the movie theater at the time and in preparation for this podcast. I wonder if it's a better movie if Redford and Deborah switch roles.

• 1:44:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:44:15Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting.

• 1:44:16Speaker 03

  I think maybe it's a better film.

• 1:44:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And then he's doing the Harrison Ford and working girl type thing where he's just along for the ride.

• 1:44:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:44:23Sean Fennessey?

  This is the movie that Ivan Reitman made after Ghostbusters. You can almost sense that he's like, I'm gonna class it up now. I'm ready to be an adult now. And it doesn't work in that he makes twins.

• 1:44:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Sean Fennessey?

  Which is a lovely movie.

• 1:44:34Speaker 03

  And Legal Eagles was success, right?

• 1:44:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it made ninety million dollars.

• 1:44:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a successful movie.

• 1:44:40Sean Fennessey?

  Um.

• 1:44:41Speaker 03

  Not Hall of Fame, I don't think.

• 1:44:42Amanda Dobbins?

  No, not going in.

• 1:44:43Sean Fennessey?

  Let's go to the Milagro Beanfield War.

• 1:44:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44:46Sean Fennessey?

  Which is the next film that he directs in nineteen eighty-eight, which I watched a little bit of yesterday. I didn't watch the entire film, but I wanted to be reminded of it, which I think is just a wonderful movie and very charming and very funny. And again, not at all what you would think he would direct.

• 1:44:57Speaker 03

  I agree. And I saw this in movie theaters as well and remember it very fondly. Yeah.

• 1:45:02Sean Fennessey?

  This is one of the, probably the most unknown or forgotten of his directorial work and really of anything that he worked on, I would say, over time, mostly because his cast is not as star-studded, though there's a lot of very good actors in the movie. But if people can track this movie down or can rent it online, I think it's really worth it. It's very entertaining. It's not, not Hall of Fame worthy.

• 1:45:19Speaker 03

  Do you have it on Blue?

• 1:45:20Sean Fennessey?

  I certainly do.

• 1:45:20Speaker 03

  I do, too.

• 1:45:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I see here on, that it was released by Kino Lorber.

• 1:45:25Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, Kino Lorber, there are maybe like fifteen Kino Lorber films in my Redford stack, which will be posted to social media soon.

• 1:45:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, great.

• 1:45:32Speaker 03

  Oh, nice.

• 1:45:32Sean Fennessey?

  Um, let's keep moving.

• 1:45:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:35Sean Fennessey?

  Nineteen ninety Havana.

• 1:45:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:45:37Sean Fennessey?

  When I was describing the relationship between Pollock and Redford and the way that they would indulge each other's dullness, this is the movie I was thinking of, which I had not seen before until this week.

• 1:45:48Speaker 03

  I had also not seen it until I watched it in preparation for this podcast.

• 1:45:52Sean Fennessey?

  This is a movie about a pre-Castro Cuban Cuba in which a poker player, played by Robert Redford, gets involved with the wife of a communist rebel, played by Raul Julia. Lena Olin plays the woman. This should be the sexiest, coolest movie ever made.

• 1:46:15Sean Fennessey?

  So boring.

• 1:46:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:17Sean Fennessey?

  Not good.

• 1:46:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Is he good?

• 1:46:17Sean Fennessey?

  I've said that about like six movies in this conversation.

• 1:46:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Is he good at playing poker?

• 1:46:21Sean Fennessey?

  There's a couple of interesting poker scenes and a lot of very good character actors.

• 1:46:26Sean Fennessey?

  There's not a lot of like actual gameplay.

• 1:46:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:46:29Sean Fennessey?

  We see cards on the table and we see some discussion, but you don't really, it's not, it's not exactly rounders.

• 1:46:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:46:34Sean Fennessey?

  Fair to say?

• 1:46:35Speaker 03

  Fair to say.

• 1:46:36Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, so this movie is red.

• 1:46:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:38Speaker 03

  It, it, it, it's, it's just awkward. It, it, I, you really, I really feel watching it that Mr. Redford's heart isn't in it.

• 1:46:47Sean Fennessey?

  Totally agree.

• 1:46:48Speaker 03

  It doesn't seem like he's, it seems like he knows it's not working. I feel like I can read on him. Oh, you know, this isn't working.

• 1:46:55Sean Fennessey?

  He's a little glazed over the entire film. Kind of has like a stit, like a blank smile through, through most of the movie. Cause he's supposed to be this kind of suave character moving through this illicit world, but it has no heat.

• 1:47:06Speaker 03

  This is, uh, I put the movie on and I was watching it. I was maybe 20 minutes, half an hour into it. And I thought I'm watching Robert Redford, Lena Olin, Alan Arkin. And I thought to myself, Raul Julia should be in this movie. And then suddenly he appeared. He's uncredited. He didn't.

• 1:47:22Sean Fennessey?

  Is that true?

• 1:47:22Speaker 03

  He is. He didn't, he wanted to be above the title as well, apparently with Mr. Redford and Ms. Olin. And they wouldn't give him that. So he said, well, then just don't credit me at all.

• 1:47:33Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, he's killed within the first 45 minutes of the movie.

• 1:47:36Speaker 03

  Look.

• 1:47:36Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Anyway, um, sorry, sorry for the fan heads out there. We're desperate to track this movie down after we ran it down. 1992 is a very important year for him. He, uh, has a big box office success and directs a film. He stars in Sneakers and he directs A River Runs Through It.

• 1:47:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:53Sean Fennessey?

  Now, these are.

• 1:47:55Amanda Dobbins?

  I think this is, maybe this is when I came online with Robert Redford.

• 1:47:58Sean Fennessey?

  I see.

• 1:47:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:00Sean Fennessey?

  It was A River Runs Through It and your passion for fly fishing.

• 1:48:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, well Brad Pitt is incredibly handsome in that movie. Just really, really intense stuff. Um, but also Sneakers was such a phenomenon.

• 1:48:12Sean Fennessey?

  It was, and it is a beloved movie recently featured on the rewatchables. I think this is, this is Joanna Robinson's favorite, uh, movie of his. And, um, it's a movie that I've always liked and not loved. And, but it is a very, it's very personal to a lot of people, which is strange because it's an odd movie. Actually, when I saw you in New York, we talked about it a little bit, right?

• 1:48:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cause I had never seen it before. I, I watched it for the, for the pod and, uh,

• 1:48:37Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know. I was so into it for the first half of the movie. And the, the reveal of the conspiracy was so exciting. And then we come to find out it's Ben Kingsley in a, in a bad hairpiece. It's like some suburban office park. It's like, this is our, this is the bad guy?

• 1:48:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:48:54Speaker 03

  This is a bit depressing.

• 1:48:56Sean Fennessey?

  It's another film that has a lot of great pieces, you know, Sidney Poitier, David Stryther, River Phoenix.

• 1:49:02Speaker 03

  Oh, great cast.

• 1:49:03Sean Fennessey?

  Wonderful cast, Kingsley. Uh, Phil Alden Robinson, this is the movie he made after Field of Dreams. And two, two for two for Phil Alden Robinson. Now, again, this is a challenge to the, what is the purpose of this? Because I think for the nineties, you could make the case, this is his film. Now, you can also say A River Runs Through It, or the next film we'll talk about could also be a choice.

• 1:49:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's, let's talk about, well, we should do A River Runs Through It briefly.

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  Which I just saw for the first time. I've never seen A River Runs Through It. And I watched it on.

• 1:49:33Sean Fennessey?

  Did you like it?

• 1:49:34Speaker 03

  I did.

• 1:49:34Sean Fennessey?

  Very good.

• 1:49:35Speaker 03

  It was really lovely.

• 1:49:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Sean Fennessey?

  Beautiful movie, um, about fathers and sons.

• 1:49:38Speaker 03

  I thought Craig Sheffer was really good.

• 1:49:39Sean Fennessey?

  And at the time, it was as much Craig Sheffer as it was Brad Pitt. Like Craig Sheffer had been in a series of movies up to that point. I think The Program was the movie he made right before that, the college football movie. And so he was also becoming a very well-known actor. My father loves this movie. This is one of the most dad movies ever made. Um, and he showed it to me, I think, when I was 10 years old. Um, and I like it quite a bit. I think it's really beautiful.

• 1:49:58Speaker 03

  Oh, the, the, yeah. Stomach punch for me at, at the end. There were, there were a couple of punches in the stomach.

• 1:50:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:04Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:50:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Absolutely.

• 1:50:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's very effective. I, I think it's maybe just shy of the Hall of Fame, but it's a good movie.

• 1:50:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, we can yellow it.

• 1:50:11Sean Fennessey?

  Let's see. Okay, we'll yellow A River Runs Through It. Do you want to yellow sneakers for the sake of conversation here?

• 1:50:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:50:15Sean Fennessey?

  So we'll yellow sneakers. I can't believe we've just redded The Natural. That was crazy. Um, 1994 Quiz Show.

• 1:50:23Speaker 03

  Great.

• 1:50:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 1:50:24Sean Fennessey?

  Did I skip something?

• 1:50:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:50:25Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:50:26Amanda Dobbins?

  You skipped Indecent Proposal.

• 1:50:27Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, I'm sorry. I skipped Indecent Proposal.

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  Oh, we're not talking about Indecent Proposal. Let's talk about Indecent Proposal.

• 1:50:34Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:50:34Speaker 03

  Okay, if you've been sitting at home snoozing through our podcast, you're, you're in the car, you're not really listening, listen up, people, because we're going to talk about Indecent Proposal. So I had never seen this before. I watched it with Carrie.

• 1:50:45Amanda Dobbins?

  No kidding?

• 1:50:45Speaker 03

  No, we'd never watched it. And so I watched it with Carrie. She, she knew the movie. She had seen it somewhere.

• 1:50:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Speaker 03

  And I, the second half, so after.

• 1:50:52Sean Fennessey?

  Great movie to watch with your wife.

• 1:50:53Speaker 03

  After Robert Redford sleeps with Demi Moore, and she comes home to, to Woody Harrelson, and he starts acting like a little bitch. After she comes home for the second half of the movie, I was just screaming at the TV the whole time. You're not a man. You're less than a man. This movie is so ridiculous. Who wouldn't fuck Robert Redford for a million dollars?

• 1:51:20Amanda Dobbins?

  It's really, that is true. You're a hundred percent right.

• 1:51:23Sean Fennessey?

  It is a fatally flawed film.

• 1:51:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:25Amanda Dobbins?

  But also, it has Robert Redford being like, I will fuck you and then give you a million dollars.

• 1:51:31Sean Fennessey?

  He's very charming. He's wearing a wonderful watch.

• 1:51:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Sean Fennessey?

  You know, he looks great. He's kind of, he's fully in his.

• 1:51:36Amanda Dobbins?

  His house is nice?

• 1:51:37Sean Fennessey?

  You know, his, his late 50s at this point. He's very believable as this, you know, wealthy, uh, social manipulator. Someone who's like so successful that he's like, let's just, I'm just gonna fuck with people.

• 1:51:51Sean Fennessey?

  He was not a big fan of this movie. And he signed on because he thought it was an interesting psychological exploration of commitment. And that he turned out to be an Adrian Lyne movie. And, you know, I like Adrian Lyne movies just as much as the next guy, but this movie's like not actually that good, but it's really interesting to talk about.

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  It's.

• 1:52:08Sean Fennessey?

  And it was a huge hit.

• 1:52:09Speaker 03

  Huge hit. I think his biggest hit.

• 1:52:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:12Speaker 03

  I think Mr. Redford's biggest hit.

• 1:52:13Sean Fennessey?

  Endgame, but sure.

• 1:52:14Speaker 03

  Oh, all right.

• 1:52:16Amanda Dobbins?

  The first half of it is absolutely incredible and you can't believe what you're watching and like hugely like titillating and the best Adrian Lyne. And it is a great. It's a, like a movie as a reference point, you know, now we.

• 1:52:31Sean Fennessey?

  It went into the culture immediately.

• 1:52:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly. And so that says something about it.

• 1:52:37Speaker 03

  It does. I had, when Carrie and I watch movies at home, whether or not she's gonna stay awake is always

• 1:52:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:43Speaker 03

  in question.

• 1:52:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:44Speaker 03

  There's no question when in watching Indecent Proposal, she was wide awake throughout the entire film. So there is something about it that grabs the attention and that holds you. Maybe it's stupidity is one of the things that holds you to it. You're not a man. You're not a man.

• 1:53:01Amanda Dobbins?

  It's true. It's just also like you made a deal.

• 1:53:04Sean Fennessey?

  That's the thing.

• 1:53:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:05Sean Fennessey?

  You, they, he knew what he was getting himself into.

• 1:53:07Speaker 03

  He knew absolutely what he was getting himself into. And now he's got a million dollars. Shut the fuck up.

• 1:53:14Sean Fennessey?

  So I wouldn't put this in.

• 1:53:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:53:16Sean Fennessey?

  But because I just don't think the movie is ultimately that good. Van Lathan said this is his favorite Robert Redford movie when we were outside with him.

• 1:53:22Speaker 03

  When Van makes his Robert Redford Hall of Fame, he should absolutely put this in.

• 1:53:27Sean Fennessey?

  I, I, I wouldn't put it in.

• 1:53:28Amanda Dobbins?

  It must be a yellow.

• 1:53:29Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, we'll yellow it for the sake of you.

• 1:53:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:53:33Sean Fennessey?

  1994 Quiz Show.

• 1:53:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:53:35Sean Fennessey?

  Now, this is one of the first movies that made me feel smart.

• 1:53:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:40Sean Fennessey?

  And I was like, I want to be closer to whatever's going on here. There is a kind of, now, one, I love game shows.

• 1:53:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 1:53:47Sean Fennessey?

  I love trivia quiz shows. I love the idea of a, a kind of hidden scandal. This movie's a really interesting kind of detective movie in some ways. Rob Morrow playing this kind of guy investigating what's really happening behind the scenes of this TV, this quiz show.

• 1:54:06Sean Fennessey?

  And it features a series of incredible performances.

• 1:54:11Speaker 03

  And some incredible scenes in which to perform, right? There is great individual scenes in this movie.

• 1:54:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah. I said this about a recent movie that we did on the pod that like the secret to great movies, not necessarily great writing or great art, but great movies is just like one great scene after another. And this movie really has that, very entertaining, nominated for Best Picture. It arrived in the year of the.

• 1:54:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I was gonna say.

• 1:54:35Sean Fennessey?

  Pulp Fiction, Forrest Gump, Shawshank, Bloodbath.

• 1:54:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Excuse me, what was the fifth film that was nominated in 1994?

• 1:54:42Sean Fennessey?

  Was Sense and Sensibility.

• 1:54:44Amanda Dobbins?

  No, that is 1995.

• 1:54:45Speaker 03

  It was Mermaids.

• 1:54:47Amanda Dobbins?

  They're re-releasing it in December.

• 1:54:48Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:54:48Amanda Dobbins?

  No, that was in the 1980s.

• 1:54:50Speaker 03

  That was a joke.

• 1:54:52Sean Fennessey?

  It was, uh.

• 1:54:56Amanda Dobbins?

  You are, you're a disrespectful person. And first of all, it's, it's funny that you're on the, the quiz show.

• 1:55:02Sean Fennessey?

  It was.

• 1:55:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Portion of this podcast.

• 1:55:04Speaker 03

  Fried green tomatoes. It was.

• 1:55:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Four weddings and a funeral.

• 1:55:09Speaker 03

  Four weddings and a funeral.

• 1:55:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's very good movie.

• 1:55:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:55:14Sean Fennessey?

  If we're not putting The Natural in, I would want to put in a movie like Quiz Show, which I just think is wonderful. It's not, is it iconic in the same way? No. Is it even really very Red Fortian? Maybe? Not really?

• 1:55:27Speaker 03

  It's just superb.

• 1:55:28Sean Fennessey?

  It's just really good.

• 1:55:29Speaker 03

  It's really fucking good.

• 1:55:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Now, that would make it two. Directed films that he does not appear in going in. So I would yellow it if you wanted to come back to it.

• 1:55:38Speaker 03

  I think those are his two best directed films.

• 1:55:42Sean Fennessey?

  I definitely agree.

• 1:55:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm fine with it. We can definitely yellow it.

• 1:55:46Sean Fennessey?

  Let's yellow it. Let's yellow it for now. We gotta keep moving.

• 1:55:48Speaker 03

  I have a little trivia, though. One brief thing. So I heard Bill Simmons talking about Robert Redford on a podcast with another fellow. They did a little Redford trivia.

• 1:55:58Sean Fennessey?

  Wesley Morris.

• 1:55:59Speaker 03

  No, it wasn't Wesley. It was another fellow.

• 1:56:01Sean Fennessey?

  Brian Koppelman.

• 1:56:02Speaker 03

  Yes, they talked about, and they talked about the slow clap. The introduction of the slow clap in Brubaker. Bill seems to think that that is the introduction of the slow clap in Brubaker. And it might be. I don't know. There's a slow clap in Quiz Show at the end. And it all, I always bumped on it. It was just like, why, why the slow clap? This movie is, it's real. The slow clap actually happened. It's a historic fact.

• 1:56:34Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it happened in Brubaker, for the record. That's one of the weirdest endings to a movie of all time.

• 1:56:38Speaker 03

  Isn't there a slow clap in Brubaker?

• 1:56:39Sean Fennessey?

  I just mean in the real story.

• 1:56:41Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not based in real life.

• 1:56:42Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think that that happened. The ending of Brubaker is utterly bizarre, for the record. Like, the score and all the choices that are made.

• 1:56:49Speaker 03

  Anyway, actual slow clap, meaning earned slow clap.

• 1:56:53Sean Fennessey?

  Well, if you keep this up, you'll get a slow clap at the end of this episode.

• 1:56:56Speaker 03

  I do not like an unearned slow clap.

• 1:56:58Sean Fennessey?

  1996, Up Close and Personal.

• 1:57:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:01Speaker 03

  This is my least favorite movie in the Robert Redford filmogram.

• 1:57:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow. You just, you were not 12 in 1996. You just weren't, you know? You weren't there.

• 1:57:11Speaker 03

  When I look at something like-

• 1:57:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Have you heard the Celine Dion song?

• 1:57:13Sean Fennessey?

  Do you know the name of his character in this film?

• 1:57:16Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:57:16Sean Fennessey?

  It's Warren Justice.

• 1:57:20Sean Fennessey?

  That's a little on the nose for Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn, in my opinion.

• 1:57:25Speaker 03

  When I look at Havana, when I look at some of the other movies we've talked about that maybe don't come up. I can look at Havana and go, those were two artists who were trying a thing and it didn't, didn't happen for them. When I look it up, Close and Personal, I go, this is made by a corporation. This is, this was made by producers and executives. And the artists got squeezed out of the process. That's what it looks like to me. And then a little investigation turns up, that's really what happened. I mean, John Gregory Dunn wrote a fucking book about how this movie got fucked up.

• 1:58:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, wonderful book.

• 1:58:03Amanda Dobbins?

  But see that's

• 1:58:03Sean Fennessey?

  That's monster, right? Is that monster?

• 1:58:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, here's the thing. Is that he believed in her, you know, and took a chance on her when no one else did.

• 1:58:11Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:58:11Amanda Dobbins?

  And so then.

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  And a star is born. That was a movie that was already made.

• 1:58:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Career keeps going, you know, and he, he shows up for her. And then he discovers his own joy and in work again. And she loses him, but she keeps doing the work.

• 1:58:28Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda.

• 1:58:29Amanda Dobbins?

  You know?

• 1:58:29Sean Fennessey?

  Are you telling me that you like this movie?

• 1:58:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I just, I remember, I remember this movie. And so Because You Love Me is the Celine Dion song.

• 1:58:37Sean Fennessey?

  If the Celine Dion song was not in the movie, would you care?

• 1:58:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, maybe not, but it was such a phenomenon at the time. Like, I remember being obsessed with this song, waiting for it to come on the radio, and then being sucked in to the movie itself. I was also, again, I was 12, so.

• 1:58:55Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm. You see it in theaters at 12?

• 1:58:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Probably, yeah. But like, how many Michelle Pfeiffer movies had I seen at that point? Like, this is, it, we're, I was coming late to two very, you know, famous and talented people. And I was at the exact right age for like, the corporation machine to hand me this glap and be like, but see, she got, you know, she got a makeover and then she learned to do more than the weather. And you can too, as long as you have really handsome Robert Redford in your corner.

• 1:59:27Speaker 03

  Because I love you.

• 1:59:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:29Speaker 03

  Do you believe that this belongs in that whole thing?

• 1:59:31Amanda Dobbins?

  No, absolutely not. But we just need to acknowledge that it was really important.

• 1:59:35Sean Fennessey?

  Just want to say.

• 1:59:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:36Sean Fennessey?

  The real, true life story of Jessica Savage, the anchor whom this film is sort of based on, it's a very sad story. She is also an alumni of Ithaca College. And at Ithaca College, she is like a saint. And there's like a scholarship named after her. And there's, I spent a lot of time learning about Jessica Savage. Her real story, her real life is quite interesting. This movie's a little, little gloppy.

• 1:59:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:59:58Sean Fennessey?

  In my opinion.

• 1:59:59Speaker 03

  And how about that local station in Miami, which is, you know, several stories high, employs hundreds of people? It's like, was that ever, was it ever like that?

• 2:00:09Sean Fennessey?

  I doubt it.

• 2:00:10Speaker 03

  I mean, right now, it's, you know, eight people, you know, in a booth.

• 2:00:14Sean Fennessey?

  Right now, it's it's three people.

• 2:00:15Speaker 03

  Now, it's three people and.

• 2:00:16Sean Fennessey?

  This is broadcast news. 1998 The Horse Whisperer.

• 2:00:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Well.

• 2:00:21Sean Fennessey?

  Starring and directed by Robert Redford.

• 2:00:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:25Sean Fennessey?

  I have not seen this movie since 1998.

• 2:00:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:00:27Sean Fennessey?

  I did not revisit it for this episode. You reminded me that it was quite long.

• 2:00:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I revisited it and did not remember, but relearned that it is two hours and 50 minutes long.

• 2:00:37Speaker 03

  Two hours and 5:00?

• 2:00:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:00:40Speaker 03

  Is it really?

• 2:00:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:00:42Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:00:42Amanda Dobbins?

  I I will be honest, I did not rewatch all two hours and 50 minutes. I fast forwarded to my hero Kristen Scott Thomas being a, you know, a working woman on the go in New York and then swooning at the nice horseman. And then when they ride on the horses together, which they do at great length. Saw a little Scar Joe while I was fast forwarding. I this movie came out after The English Patient, which I loved and was thus obsessed with Kristen Scott Thomas. And I guess I knew about Robert Redford from up close and personal. So it was another.

• 2:01:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Again, we can only be the teenagers that we were. And so I I saw it at the time and thought it was like very serious. And of course, now it's just like a.

• 2:01:28Sean Fennessey?

  It's kind of forgotten. I mean, you know, it was also very much the announcement of Scarlett Johansson.

• 2:01:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:01:33Sean Fennessey?

  Um, as a young actor. And another movie that when you look at the component parts, script by Eric Roth and Richard LaGravenes,

• 2:01:42Sean Fennessey?

  shot by Robert Richardson.

• 2:01:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it looks.

• 2:01:46Sean Fennessey?

  Edited by Hank Corwin, who edited JFK.

• 2:01:48Speaker 03

  It's amazing to watch all these Redford movies and to go and to realize that heads of departments are it's just like always a team.

• 2:01:56Sean Fennessey?

  A team, always. This one in particular, though, is really the best of the best. And I just remembered this movie put me at fucking.

• 2:02:03Amanda Dobbins?

  It's quite long.

• 2:02:05Sean Fennessey?

  And it was also another movie that I think very much kind of dominated the culture for the two months in the run up to its release because it seemed so important.

• 2:02:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:12Sean Fennessey?

  And then it didn't turn out.

• 2:02:15Speaker 03

  Saw it 98, liked it.

• 2:02:19Speaker 03

  Want credit for saying at the time, I think that girl's gonna be a big star.

• 2:02:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:02:23Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh, I haven't thought about it since.

• 2:02:26Sean Fennessey?

  Made a hundred and eighty-seven million dollars at the box office. A three-hour movie about-

• 2:02:30Amanda Dobbins?

  A real thing.

• 2:02:31Sean Fennessey?

  A man and a young girl and horses.

• 2:02:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, and also Kristen Scott Thomas.

• 2:02:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:02:36Amanda Dobbins?

  And, you know, repressed love.

• 2:02:38Sean Fennessey?

  And Chris Cooper, good, really good cast.

• 2:02:40Speaker 03

  People like to see Robert Redford on screen.

• 2:02:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:02:43Sean Fennessey?

  And a cowboy hat, too, okay. Um, that's red. Let's go to 2000 and say, The Legend of Bagger Vance will not be making it in.

• 2:02:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Ya-za.

• 2:02:52Speaker 03

  Never seen it, didn't wanna watch it for this.

• 2:02:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I think it really, really bad. I saw it, that one I did see in theaters. That's a no.

• 2:02:59Sean Fennessey?

  Complete miscalculation across the board. Um, this is, that's the movie that Will Smith chose to make instead of, uh, The Matrix, so that happened. Um, 2001, The Last Castle, I think we, did we both watch this for the first time?

• 2:03:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:03:12Sean Fennessey?

  You watched this for the first time as well?

• 2:03:13Amanda Dobbins?

  No, Tracy told me last night that you both watched it, it was one of the films that he watched on the plane.

• 2:03:18Sean Fennessey?

  Um, did you watch this?

• 2:03:19Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 2:03:19Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:03:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Cause this is, this is about where I started running out of time and had to be selective.

• 2:03:23Sean Fennessey?

  I, I wanted to watch this because I'd never seen it and I, I like The Contender, Rod Lorry's movie, and Rod Lorry directed this movie. Uh, Return to Prison for Robert Redford, he plays, uh, he is a general who has been convicted of a crime and sent to a military prison. James Gandolfini is the warden of this prison, and of course, because it's a prison movie, there needs to be an uprising of some sort. It's a fairly, um, leaden drama, I thought, set inside of a prison.

• 2:03:49Speaker 03

  Uh, it was more entertaining than I was anticipating.

• 2:03:52Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:03:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I found the-

• 2:03:53Sean Fennessey?

  I was a little disappointed.

• 2:03:54Speaker 03

  The climax, you know, gave me a couple of like Dirty Dozen-ish, uh, Great Escape thrills in that, in that vein.

• 2:04:01Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:04:01Speaker 03

  Uh, and Robert Redford taking his shirt off and hauling those rocks across the courtyard. Fuck you, Robert Redford.

• 2:04:08Sean Fennessey?

  And he's sixty.

• 2:04:09Speaker 03

  He's sixty-five years old.

• 2:04:11Sean Fennessey?

  Fucking crazy.

• 2:04:11Speaker 03

  Uh, just, and it's not made in a, in a lab either, that body, right? It's not made by machines.

• 2:04:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Powerful.

• 2:04:18Sean Fennessey?

  He's just, he's just built that way.

• 2:04:19Speaker 03

  Gandolfini's miscast, I think, uh-

• 2:04:23Sean Fennessey?

  I wish he could have been allowed to do more things like this, even if this one isn't totally right.

• 2:04:28Speaker 03

  I totally agree.

• 2:04:29Sean Fennessey?

  You know what I mean?

• 2:04:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do.

• 2:04:30Sean Fennessey?

  Um, okay, The Last Castle's out. 2001 Spy Game, now.

• 2:04:34Speaker 03

  I watched this for the first time yesterday.

• 2:04:36Sean Fennessey?

  Did you?

• 2:04:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:37Sean Fennessey?

  This is a film with a big fanbase, and this is, I guess, considered maybe mid-tier Tony Scott. This is something we talked about with Van recently, Brad Pitt and Robert Redford coming together, a sort of baton passing moment shortly after Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford's baton passing moment in The Devil's Zone with Alan Pacula, a movie, a director that he worked with. Spy Game, just kind of your typical spy craft movie, the sort of aging veteran who knows more than the young buck, and they are working together, but also can they trust one another?

• 2:05:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 2:05:08Sean Fennessey?

  Very kinetic and crazy Tony Scott filmmaking style. This movie also was a big success. This is a series of films in which he is still a huge box office star.

• 2:05:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:05:17Sean Fennessey?

  Heading into the early 2000s, some four decades after he became a star. I like it. I don't have a strong feeling that it needs to be in. When it doesn't go in, all the bros will be like, how could Spy Game not be in? Just gonna put that out there for you. Any thoughts?

• 2:05:34Speaker 03

  You know, I love the bros.

• 2:05:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't like this movie as much as I should, given that it is a Tony Scott spy craft thriller starring Robert Redford and Brad Pitt. That's, it's just checking many boxes for me, and it always feels a little forced and, but also that there is no real magic. There is something about like one, a spy movie or a heist movie or anything when they are like, are they gonna pull it off? The tension and the, the sense of exhilaration. I, I don't have that, even though the camera is just going absolutely nuts around buildings the whole time. So I, I don't feel the need to fight for it, and I don't care about the bros, as discussed.

• 2:06:20Speaker 03

  Tony Scott, wow, he could really do that stuff, you know? It was, it was a, it was a real style that he had, real sense of style. It's interesting to watch that stuff now start to date. Right? That, that stuff at the time seemed so sort of.

• 2:06:33Sean Fennessey?

  He seemed like a futurist.

• 2:06:34Speaker 03

  Right. This is the future of movies, and now you look at it and you go, oh, some of those sound effects and stuff, some of that stuff is starting to date. The feature for the movie, for me, is. Robert Redford.

• 2:06:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:45Speaker 03

  I think Redford is great in this movie.

• 2:06:47Sean Fennessey?

  He is very good.

• 2:06:48Speaker 03

  Uh, he's really good, really watchable. It's not, it wouldn't be green for me. It's fun.

• 2:06:54Sean Fennessey?

  I'm gonna yellow it out of, out of a sense of nostalgia.

• 2:06:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:06:57Sean Fennessey?

  I saw this movie in theaters in college. Had a nice time.

• 2:07:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:07:00Sean Fennessey?

  With my friends. 2004, The Clearing.

• 2:07:03Speaker 03

  I saw it. I watched it.

• 2:07:05Sean Fennessey?

  I've never seen this.

• 2:07:05Speaker 03

  And nor have I. I watched it. How was it? I liked it better than I thought I was gonna like it. Okay. All the scene, Robert Redford is an executive who gets kidnapped by Willem Dafoe. And Willem Dafoe is leading him, uh, out into the woods somewhere. And this is crosscutting with Helen Mirren, uh, who is Robert Redford's wife. And she is, uh, trying to, you know, she's dealing with the FBI and putting together the ransom money. It's always crossing between the two stories. We come to realize at some point that the Redford Dafoe plotline is all happening in one day. Whereas the Helen Mirren plotline is happening over a period of weeks and maybe even months. Even though we're crosscutting between the two things.

• 2:07:49Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting. That's clever.

• 2:07:51Speaker 03

  The, it feels very much like a, like a French thriller from 1980 something, right? And I think if there were French actors playing the parts, it might be more respected.

• 2:08:03Sean Fennessey?

  The director is Dutch, for the record.

• 2:08:05Speaker 03

  And it's his only film as a director, right?

• 2:08:08Sean Fennessey?

  Peter Jan Bruges.

• 2:08:09Speaker 03

  The, uh, but you know, you get to see Robert Redford and Willem Dafoe playing a lot of scenes together. Are they scenes that would really happen between a kidnapper and his victim? Probably not, but still, they're two very compelling actors working with, with each other. And then there's Helen Mirren dealing with Alessandro Nivolo, who plays their kid. And, you know, Helen Mirren's always very watchable. So, I don't know, I liked it better than I thought I was gonna like it. It's not a great movie, but it doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

• 2:08:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, given that Amanda and I haven't seen it, it has to be read. That would be a first to put a movie in the Hall of Fame that we haven't seen. 2005, An Unfinished Life.

• 2:08:45Speaker 03

  Watched it.

• 2:08:46Sean Fennessey?

  This is a Lasse Hallström film.

• 2:08:48Speaker 03

  A Lasse Hallström joint.

• 2:08:51Speaker 03

  I like him, you don't like him, right? That's kinda, that's, we've found this divide.

• 2:08:54Sean Fennessey?

  I think he's real soggy, yeah.

• 2:08:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. I kind of enjoyed this. Again, I like, did you watch it for this?

• 2:08:59Sean Fennessey?

  I saw it when it came out, yeah.

• 2:09:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I didn't re-watch it either.

• 2:09:02Speaker 03

  I kinda liked it. I enjoyed it. I thought, again, I thought Mr. Redford was very good. There's one too many plotlines. There's a, there's a little sentimental, the storyline about the abusive boyfriend played by Damian Lewis is very one-note. But I thought Mr. Redford, Mr. Redford seemed very engaged in this movie. He seemed really kind of into the material.

• 2:09:25Sean Fennessey?

  I think we'll be able to say that about many of these performances that are coming.

• 2:09:29Speaker 03

  I think he got to a point in his life and in his career when he, part of his mission became, here's, here's a person aging. Here's a way to age. He aged on move, in, on screen in a way that was very believable and real. I mean, obviously he was in amazing shape and a movie star and all the rest of it.

• 2:09:51Sean Fennessey?

  But his face, you could see it. His face, he, he didn't fuck with his face. He aged.

• 2:09:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:55Speaker 03

  He aged and he kept working and he kept working in age-appropriate roles.

• 2:10:01Sean Fennessey?

  Unfinished Life is not going in, I'm sorry to you and to Lasa. Uh, 2006, he voices Ike in Charlotte's Web.

• 2:10:07Amanda Dobbins?

  That's the horse.

• 2:10:08Sean Fennessey?

  The horse, yeah. And that, I mean, that makes all the sense in the world. From whispering to becoming, you know, really. Horse guy, that's not going in. 2007, Lions for Lambs. I cannot recall being more excited for a movie in my life.

• 2:10:20Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:10:21Sean Fennessey?

  Robert Redford directing Meryl Streep.

• 2:10:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:24Sean Fennessey?

  And Tom Cruise.

• 2:10:27Sean Fennessey?

  In a political drama.

• 2:10:32Sean Fennessey?

  Loosely based on real-life events. And the absolutely perilous state of our country at the time. In the aftermath of the Iraq War and 9/11.

• 2:10:40Amanda Dobbins?

  In 2007, when you are 25.

• 2:10:41Sean Fennessey?

  And is also in the year in which.

• 2:10:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:44Sean Fennessey?

  Michael Clayton, No Country for Old Men and There Will Be Blood and the assassination of Jesse James and the whole host of 2007 movies are coming out. And I'm in that, that moment and thinking, has it ever been this good? And this movie stinks.

• 2:10:59Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so, so boring.

• 2:11:01Speaker 03

  Not good.

• 2:11:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:03Speaker 03

  It's not a good film.

• 2:11:04Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. I don't know what happened. He directed that. And I don't, I mean, it's not a good script. The performances are not good. I, it's startling. Anyway, we can read it.

• 2:11:15Sean Fennessey?

  2010, The Conspirator.

• 2:11:17Speaker 03

  Didn't watch it. And I'm working with the actor who plays John Wilkes Booth in that movie. He's a lovely guy named Toby Kebble. I love him.

• 2:11:24Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, he's a good actor.

• 2:11:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really like him a lot. And he had told me some good Robert Redford stories, which we don't have time for on here, but I didn't watch it. I don't know it.

• 2:11:32Sean Fennessey?

  It's not bad. I think it's more pleased with its dramatic structure than it is being a good movie. And you can kind of feel Redford like kind of losing the juice a little bit as a filmmaker. It's a little shaggier, I would say, than his early movies. Not bad, but not really worth writing home about.

• 2:11:50Speaker 03

  Did you see it?

• 2:11:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I didn't re-watch it. I went, I saw it when it came out because I was in a big James McAvoy phase of life. Still am.

• 2:11:59Sean Fennessey?

  The Company You Keep, 2012, another film that he stars in and directs. This film, I cited this recently because of One Battle After Another, which have you still not seen it?

• 2:12:08Speaker 03

  I've not seen One Battle After Another.

• 2:12:10Sean Fennessey?

  Just get it together, man.

• 2:12:11Speaker 03

  And it's my failing. There's no good reason for it. It's my failing.

• 2:12:15Sean Fennessey?

  Well, now it's overhyped and now you're gonna go in expecting the moon and the stars.

• 2:12:17Speaker 03

  I have two little kids. I don't know what to fucking tell you. I'm having to watch all this Redford material.

• 2:12:21Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we appreciate you doing that.

• 2:12:23Speaker 03

  By the way, I've heard on recent pods, Chris talking about.

• 2:12:28Sean Fennessey?

  Chris who?

• 2:12:29Speaker 03

  Chris Ryan, talking about rando stacked casts. He wants us.

• 2:12:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you want in on that?

• 2:12:38Speaker 03

  I want this movie in consideration for rando stacked casts.

• 2:12:42Sean Fennessey?

  This is a movie about a former member of the Weather Underground emerging some decades after the activities in the 1960s. Redford plays the man who has been working, I think, as a small town lawyer. Shia LaBeouf is a reporter, kind of stumbles on this man. And it's this question of sort of like, what was the work for in the 60s? What does life mean in the aftermath of it? A little bit of running on empty going on there. And a little bit about like, what is privacy and what are you entitled to in the world? I think this is a really interesting movie. It's not perfect. Shia is much more controversial now, but I think he's very good in this. And to your point, Nick Nolte, Susan Sarandon, and Julie Christie are all compatriots of his. Anna Kendrick is in this movie, a very

• 2:13:27Sean Fennessey?

  young Anna Kendrick, a very young Brit Marling, Stanley Tucci, Chris Cooper. Crazy cast.

• 2:13:32Speaker 03

  The trailer for the, you should watch the trailer. You know how the, in the eighties and nineties, the trailer was like, they'd show you what the movie was gonna be about in the first act. And then halfway through the trailer, they'd show you an actor you didn't know was in the movie. It's like, oh, holy shit, I didn't know Samuel Jackson was in this movie. The trailer for this keeps doing that. It does it so often, it starts to look like too many cooks. It's just like, there's not enough interesting stuff for all these people to do.

• 2:13:56Sean Fennessey?

  It's, I wish it was better. It's not bad, I wish it was better.

• 2:13:59Speaker 03

  There's some second act problems. It, it repeats it, right? He goes to one, oh, Sam Elliott, I don't think you mentioned Sam Elliott. He goes to one person and they say, well, you should go talk to this person. And then he goes and talks to that, well, you should go talk to this person. It starts to double back on itself in a, in a frustrating way. First and third acts are kind of interesting.

• 2:14:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I remember it being like, okay, and interesting. It has kind of been outstripped in its subject matter by recent films.

• 2:14:24Sean Fennessey?

  I think what this film reveals, which The Conspirator reveals, and even his next film reveals, is he's kind of lost the juice. You know, he's lost the ability to make something an event. And that's just something that happens, right? That happens to everybody. And you get to a certain stage in your career and you've had enough movies in a row. I think Lines for Lambs really kind of deadened a lot of his, his might in the industry. Um, and so The Company Who Keep, not a very big hit, in 2013, he's in this remarkable movie called All Is Lost. This J C Shandor movie, in which he's the only person who appears. He's a man stranded on a boat in the middle of a storm, just trying to survive. And he's in his seventies when he makes this movie.

• 2:15:03Speaker 03

  Seventy-six, I think.

• 2:15:04Sean Fennessey?

  And he gives a great performance.

• 2:15:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:15:06Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so good. And he, I mean, there's almost no dialogue. It is just him doing stuff.

• 2:15:12Speaker 03

  It is the genre of movie that started with Jeremiah Johnson of Robert Redford doing things you can't do.

• 2:15:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And surviving. Yeah. And surviving. Now...

• 2:15:23Sean Fennessey?

  There is a case for this movie in the Hall of Fame. Because it is the late stage.

• 2:15:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:29Sean Fennessey?

  I would say his last, well, maybe not his last great, there's a movie I like coming up as well.

• 2:15:32Amanda Dobbins?

  There's another really good one that I, if we're gonna do one, like the last Robert Redford.

• 2:15:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, I'd like to yellow.

• 2:15:38Amanda Dobbins?

  And that movie is Avengers Endgame.

• 2:15:39Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. We're about to get to Marvel, don't worry.

• 2:15:42Amanda Dobbins?

  No, All Is Lost is remarkable.

• 2:15:44Sean Fennessey?

  We'll yellow it.

• 2:15:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, great.

• 2:15:46Sean Fennessey?

  2014 Captain America: The Winter Soldier, he plays Alexander Pierce.

• 2:15:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:15:50Speaker 03

  I didn't see it.

• 2:15:52Amanda Dobbins?

  What?

• 2:15:52Sean Fennessey?

  Good movie, good movie, really good comic book movie, for sure.

• 2:15:55Amanda Dobbins?

  So what is Alexander Pierce's role in the government at the, during Captain America: The Winter Soldier?

• 2:16:02Sean Fennessey?

  I can't recall if he's the head of the CIA or the Secretary of Defense.

• 2:16:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:16:08Sean Fennessey?

  Or he's, he's one of those critical decision makers.

• 2:16:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:16:12Sean Fennessey?

  And it is revealed quite dramatically.

• 2:16:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask.

• 2:16:15Sean Fennessey?

  That he's Hydra.

• 2:16:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, okay.

• 2:16:17Sean Fennessey?

  And he's a traitor to his country.

• 2:16:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Tracy's nodding knowingly, yeah.

• 2:16:21Speaker 03

  And there's a Three Days of the Condor.

• 2:16:25Amanda Dobbins?

  They're trying.

• 2:16:26Sean Fennessey?

  Very, very.

• 2:16:27Amanda Dobbins?

  They would, they would like, they're, they're happy that you said that.

• 2:16:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, they, and they, the Russos talked about that a great deal in the run up to the film, that this was their conspiracy thriller. It's really just a pretty good action movie, I think is a better way to describe it. Anyhow, that's not going in. A Walk in the Woods, Bill Bryson adaptation.

• 2:16:42Speaker 03

  I feel bad, I, I didn't see it, and Nick Offerman's in this movie, and now we're starting to get into the weird area of movies that Mr. Redford made with actors I know.

• 2:16:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:52Speaker 03

  And it's very frustrating.

• 2:16:53Sean Fennessey?

  You ignore your friend's work.

• 2:16:54Speaker 03

  Well, it's frustrating for me too, because I never met him, I didn't get to work with him, I don't know, and, and so I'm jealous, I'm jealous of Nick.

• 2:17:01Sean Fennessey?

  Kind of surprised by that.

• 2:17:01Speaker 03

  I'm jealous of Toby. You know, I, about 20, 25 years ago, I was doing some readings with Amy Redford, his daughter. We were just doing, you know, we were in a little group that was reading plays once a week in New York. And, uh, boy, I, I, I loved her, she was just so, such a lovely. Thoughtful, talented person and didn't seem at all fucked up from being the daughter of a

• 2:17:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:17:27Speaker 03

  Extravagantly famous person. But he really liked her a lot, but I never, and of course, we know so many people who've gone to, gone through Sundance in various forms and he was very hands-on at Sundance. He wasn't just a figurehead. He was walking around with legal pads and giving notes and watching movies and stuff. He was very engaged in that work.

• 2:17:44Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he came to be tortured by the festival in a lot of ways because of how big it became and how corporate it became, which was not at all his intention. And he talked about that all the time, that he didn't like it. But he did, I mean, he, I asked Ryan Coogler, you know, I mean, like, he was watching people's movies, you know, in the 2010s and giving them feedback. A Walk in the Woods is not going to go in. Now, I know you just saw Truth for the first time, which I think is just

• 2:18:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Awful.

• 2:18:05Sean Fennessey?

  A terrible movie. I really think it's a complete misjudgment in terms of how that story is told.

• 2:18:10Speaker 03

  I liked it better than you did.

• 2:18:12Sean Fennessey?

  I think he's good in it. It's not really about Redford. It's the way that, is it Mary McNamara?

• 2:18:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Mary Mapes.

• 2:18:18Speaker 03

  Mary Mapes.

• 2:18:18Sean Fennessey?

  Mary Mapes, excuse me, is positioned in that movie and even Cate Blanchett's performance, like, can mostly do no wrong for me, but I have like an allergy to that movie. It's not going in.

• 2:18:29Speaker 03

  No, I wouldn't argue for it to go in. It does ring the bell, the end of television journalism in this country and especially the end of CBS journalism.

• 2:18:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:41Sean Fennessey?

  And truly does. It's an important story. I just don't think it's very well told. 2016 Pete's Dragon, the first of two movies he makes with David Lowery. Disney film, nice performance from Redford.

• 2:18:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, who does he play?

• 2:18:57Speaker 03

  Pete's Dragon's boss.

• 2:18:58Sean Fennessey?

  A local man who is helping, I think, his grandchildren.

• 2:19:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:19:02Sean Fennessey?

  One of whom has befriended a dragon.

• 2:19:04Speaker 03

  I just gave Disney a great idea.

• 2:19:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:19:06Speaker 03

  Pete's Dragon's boss.

• 2:19:10Sean Fennessey?

  Cut that out so that we don't give that to them for free. So then he can email Walt Disney's great, great grandson and we can get some cash for Tracy's Blu-ray collection. 2017, The Discovery.

• 2:19:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:23Sean Fennessey?

  Have you seen this movie?

• 2:19:24Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 2:19:24Speaker 03

  No, I missed it. No.

• 2:19:25Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, this is, this is a pretty good movie.

• 2:19:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:19:28Sean Fennessey?

  Him and Jason Segel.

• 2:19:30Speaker 03

  Again, a friend of mine who I, who got to work with Redford, I didn't get to work with. I even thought about calling a few of these people and saying, you got a good Robert Redford story, but then we don't have time for all that.

• 2:19:38Sean Fennessey?

  Um, okay. Well, we can move on. I think The Discovery is not a bad movie. It's on Netflix right now. 2017, Our Souls at Night. You said you watched this?

• 2:19:44Speaker 03

  I did.

• 2:19:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I did as well.

• 2:19:45Sean Fennessey?

  You did?

• 2:19:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:46Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:19:47Speaker 03

  Lovely.

• 2:19:48Sean Fennessey?

  Not going in?

• 2:19:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think so. It's great. He reunites with Jane Fonda. It's sad. I think all like the neighbors and sons need to mind their own business. But they are, you know, they both continued to work well past what we, you know, expect of, of, of movie stars, especially movie stars of their caliber. And I'd like, Jane, they are plausible old people in this, you know? They're not trying to be the, you know, versions of themselves in, in old people clothing. So they're, they're good. And it was sad, but I don't think it needs to be in the Hall of Fame.

• 2:20:28Speaker 03

  Directed by Ritesh Batra, who made just a great movie called The Lunchbox. If you don't know it, you should absolutely watch The Lunchbox. Terrific movie. And it's very much in that, in the same mold. It's very gentle. It's very human. It's, there's not a lot of event, but it's personal and it's, it's really lovely. And I think they're both great in the movie. I would not put it, I don't think it's Hall of Fame.

• 2:20:53Sean Fennessey?

  Not in the Hall of Fame.

• 2:20:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:54Sean Fennessey?

  2018, The Old Man and the Gun.

• 2:20:56Speaker 03

  This is my, my most disappointed that I didn't get a chance, I didn't get to it.

• 2:21:01Sean Fennessey?

  This movie is an A for me. It's really, really good.

• 2:21:04Amanda Dobbins?

  It's really, really.

• 2:21:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. You'll, if you don't like this movie, I'll be stunned.

• 2:21:09Amanda Dobbins?

  And again, it's a great Redford performance and.

• 2:21:13Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, and it had that magic. You were watching at the time and you know, it's like, you know, one last game. And his performance has aspects of that, but it's still also very charming. And it's, I mean, it's very watchable. This is the one that I would put in for late period Redford.

• 2:21:28Sean Fennessey?

  I, it is my favorite for sure. It's a certain kind of a, it, it is as though the guy from the Sting survives 45 years, 35 years, whatever it is, 45 years, and is still kind of hustling.

• 2:21:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:40Sean Fennessey?

  In this, in this story, he's a bank robber who robs banks without any weapons. He just goes in and convinces people to give him money. And he's got tremendous charm. He's losing his hearing in the film. And he's playing that disability really interestingly. He and Sissy Spacek have amazing chemistry together.

• 2:21:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, they're so good.

• 2:21:57Sean Fennessey?

  I love this movie. This is one of my favorite movies. David, I'm friendly with David Lowery, but this is really, I think, an excellent film.

• 2:22:02Speaker 03

  Well, I, I have nobody to blame but myself. I just didn't get to it. I ran out of time.

• 2:22:06Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe on the plane ride home.

• 2:22:07Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:22:08Sean Fennessey?

  If you haven't had your fill. 2019 Avengers Endgame, his final screen performance.

• 2:22:13Speaker 03

  Now, is, I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to be cute. Is this the one Carrie is in? Is Carrie in a movie with Robert Redford?

• 2:22:20Amanda Dobbins?

  No, she's in Infinity War, right?

• 2:22:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. And then she, you didn't successfully negotiate to get her into Endgame?

• 2:22:27Speaker 03

  I don't want to start that all up again.

• 2:22:29Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so to the aggregators, Tracy Letts has said here that the Marvel Corporation screwed his family and the house and home.

• 2:22:37Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 2:22:39Amanda Dobbins?

  They just did a hologram.

• 2:22:41Sean Fennessey?

  Did you like that? Did you like being aggregated? They just did a hol-

• 2:22:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, right? Or they did a hologram or something?

• 2:22:45Sean Fennessey?

  I think a different person voiced it.

• 2:22:47Speaker 03

  I've seen it, so I don't.

• 2:22:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:22:48Sean Fennessey?

  Let's watch it after this. We've been sitting here for three hours. You can sit down for another three.

• 2:22:52Speaker 03

  You know, I read those Avengers comic books when I was a kid and I loved them.

• 2:22:56Sean Fennessey?

  Consider the films.

• 2:22:57Speaker 03

  I was a big fan of the Avengers.

• 2:23:01Sean Fennessey?

  The Old Man and the Gunman will make yellow for the moment. Avengers Endgame is not going to be green, much to the dismay of the Ringer worshippers. No, one very short scene. It's cute, though. The scene that he's in is, and kind of, it is actually quite critical to the movie.

• 2:23:13Amanda Dobbins?

  And he's Hydra? Still in that?

• 2:23:15Sean Fennessey?

  And you know what they say when you're in Hydra?

• 2:23:17Amanda Dobbins?

  What?

• 2:23:17Sean Fennessey?

  Hail Hydra.

• 2:23:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:23:21Speaker 03

  Hydra, you cut off a head and two heads grow back?

• 2:23:24Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that's the idea, yes, but Hydra is a secret organization, a shadow operation, operating right underneath the surface of the American government.

• 2:23:31Speaker 03

  Starts with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., right? In the comics, I think it started in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

• 2:23:37Speaker 03

  Nick Fury.

• 2:23:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:23:38Sean Fennessey?

  Nick Fury is played by Sam Jackson. He's a critical figure in these stories.

• 2:23:41Speaker 03

  I read these comics.

• 2:23:42Amanda Dobbins?

  What happens to, to Robert Redford's character, Alexander?

• 2:23:47Sean Fennessey?

  He has a, a very-

• 2:23:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Pierce. Pierce. Sorry. Excuse me. Apologies to Alexander Payton.

• 2:23:53Sean Fennessey?

  Now, that would be an interesting move. Uh, he has a torrid affair with Demi Moore at the end of the film.

• 2:23:58Speaker 03

  Weird. Weird.

• 2:24:00Sean Fennessey?

  It's odd stroke from Marvel, but something they wanted to do.

• 2:24:03Speaker 03

  He paid her a million dollars.

• 2:24:05Sean Fennessey?

  Hopefully, he made more than that. So, we stopped greening things in 1980.

• 2:24:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 2:24:12Speaker 03

  I have to pee.

• 2:24:16Speaker 03

  Leave that in.

• 2:24:20Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, we gotta, we gotta figure this out now. So, I'm just gonna read you the greens that we've selected already, okay? The greens, right now, as it stands, are Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Downhill Racer, The Sting, The Way We Were, Three Days of the Condor, All the President's Men, and Ordinary People. That's seven films.

• 2:24:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 2:24:39Sean Fennessey?

  There are quite a few yellows. I'm gonna read them to you right now. Jeremiah Johnson, The Candidate, The Hot Rock, A River Runs Through It, Sneakers, Indecent Proposal, Quiz Show, Spy Game, All Is Lost, The Old Man and the Gun. That's 10 yellows. You have to choose three. Now, keep this in mind. You can choose one, and you can also choose a blue for yourself.

• 2:25:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 2:25:03Sean Fennessey?

  That you're, that you're bringing with you in your satchel, and you're saying, "I can show you in the museum all this beautiful work from Robert Redford, but if you come over here and look in my bag, I've got this beauty. Can show it off."

• 2:25:16Speaker 03

  When you read that list of yellows, I, my immediate reaction is, "Well, The Candidate's the best movie."

• 2:25:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I would agree.

• 2:25:24Sean Fennessey?

  I, I agree, and I will say, "Let's do that together. We'll make that green."

• 2:25:28Amanda Dobbins?

  There we go. That's green. That's very easy.

• 2:25:29Sean Fennessey?

  That's very easy. Now-

• 2:25:33Sean Fennessey?

  This is a challenge.

• 2:25:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:25:35Sean Fennessey?

  I'd like to hear your, your, your takes. You want to, do you want to go to bat for anything in particular?

• 2:25:40Speaker 03

  Rip to the yellows one more time.

• 2:25:41Sean Fennessey?

  Jeremiah Johnson, The Hot Rock, A River Runs Through It, Sneakers, Indecent Proposal, Quiz Show, Spy Game, All Is Lost, and The Old Man and the Gun.

• 2:25:53Speaker 03

  I, I know what my two would be, but again, I don't.

• 2:25:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:25:56Speaker 03

  It's your podcast.

• 2:25:57Sean Fennessey?

  Speak now.

• 2:25:58Speaker 03

  My two would be Jeremiah Johnson and Quiz Show.

• 2:26:01Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:26:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:26:03Sean Fennessey?

  What would your two be?

• 2:26:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I was gonna suggest that we do Jeremiah Johnson for Tracy because he felt strongly about that.

• 2:26:10Sean Fennessey?

  Wonderful.

• 2:26:11Amanda Dobbins?

  And

• 2:26:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Quiz Show is nice, but I really like The Old Man and the Gun personally. And we don't, we currently still end at 1980, so.

• 2:26:24Sean Fennessey?

  I, I would do that. I would say Jeremiah Johnson goes in.

• 2:26:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:28Sean Fennessey?

  The Old Man and the Gun goes in, and then there's room for Blue.

• 2:26:32Speaker 03

  I, the, the fact that I've not seen one of the 10 movies on the list is all on me.

• 2:26:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:26:38Speaker 03

  And not on you or on Mr. Redford.

• 2:26:40Sean Fennessey?

  Now.

• 2:26:41Speaker 03

  If you guys feel strongly about that, you should do it.

• 2:26:43Sean Fennessey?

  Now, that means that there is no,

• 2:26:47Sean Fennessey?

  no Sneakers and no The Natural.

• 2:26:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 2:26:50Sean Fennessey?

  On this list.

• 2:26:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Which we did not even yellow. Would you like to give a yellow to The Natural?

• 2:26:54Sean Fennessey?

  Probably should be a yellow.

• 2:26:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, all right, give it a yellow, that's fine.

• 2:26:56Sean Fennessey?

  It's a pretty important movie in his career.

• 2:26:58Amanda Dobbins?

  That's fine.

• 2:26:59Speaker 03

  Look, if the green is not real, isn't the yellow even less real?

• 2:27:04Sean Fennessey?

  Good news, nothing is real. And this is all a fantasy. This is all sprung from a sad boy's mind.

• 2:27:13Speaker 03

  I'm comfortable with everything you're talking about.

• 2:27:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I feel good about it. I mean, it really, it is.

• 2:27:19Sean Fennessey?

  If you could choose one more, what would you choose? Would you choose Up Close and Personal?

• 2:27:24Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I think that I would probably do either Hot Rock or Indecent Proposal.

• 2:27:30Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so you'll take Indecent Proposal.

• 2:27:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:27:32Sean Fennessey?

  I'll take The Hot Rock.

• 2:27:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, great.

• 2:27:33Sean Fennessey?

  What will you choose? Will you choose Quiz Show?

• 2:27:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's a good, that's representative.

• 2:27:38Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 2:27:38Sean Fennessey?

  So your hope here.

• 2:27:40Speaker 03

  You're saying everybody got the answers, but you?

• 2:27:46Sean Fennessey?

  Are you more of a Charles Van Dorn? Like, who do you relate to most in that film?

• 2:27:50Speaker 03

  Paul Schofield.

• 2:27:51Sean Fennessey?

  And you're gonna say that?

• 2:27:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:53Sean Fennessey?

  I've been pod with you too long.

• 2:27:59Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's it.

• 2:27:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:00Sean Fennessey?

  I think we did. Do you? How do you feel, Amanda?

• 2:28:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I feel okay. So we have, you know, as editors and writers and people constructing, it's, we have nine movies from 1969 to 1980.

• 2:28:16Speaker 03

  But isn't that often the case with you guys constructing these lists? People hit the sweet spot, right?

• 2:28:21Sean Fennessey?

  Newman had a nice spread.

• 2:28:23Amanda Dobbins?

  This is a pretty unusual concentration of, which is in keeping with the career. Like, to me, this list tells no lies. But, you know, I suppose people will be miffed that sneakers didn't even get a blue.

• 2:28:41Sean Fennessey?

  It's just not one of my movies. The Natural's gonna be the thing that people are gonna bang about.

• 2:28:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, well, they can start a podcast, you know?

• 2:28:48Sean Fennessey?

  That's a healthy way to create a dialogue.

• 2:28:53Amanda Dobbins?

  If you would like to, pun intended, go to back for it right now.

• 2:28:57Sean Fennessey?

  I literally don't have-

• 2:28:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Why did she shoot him?

• 2:29:01Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I don't remember. Yeah, I'm sure there's a good reason.

• 2:29:03Amanda Dobbins?

  What's going on?

• 2:29:04Speaker 03

  Let me, let me test a couple of things.

• 2:29:05Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:29:07Speaker 03

  Do you guys believe, just straight up, Old Man and the Gun versus All Is Lost? Are you-

• 2:29:14Sean Fennessey?

  It's a personal preference thing, and I would prefer the Old Man and the Gun.

• 2:29:17Speaker 03

  You lean toward-

• 2:29:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Me too.

• 2:29:17Sean Fennessey?

  All Is Lost, possibly a better,

• 2:29:22Sean Fennessey?

  possibly a more challenging and interesting performance. But Old Man and the Gun, I think ultimately a more enjoyable film. And I think he's used very well.

• 2:29:32Speaker 03

  Ordinary People, the only director credit. Are you guys comfortable with that in the Hall of Fame?

• 2:29:38Sean Fennessey?

  Um, well, you've got Quiz Show in your blues. And I, you know, Quiz Show I love. Quiz Show also not available on Blu-ray.

• 2:29:46Sean Fennessey?

  The fuck? What the fuck? Okay, I'm good with that.

• 2:29:52Sean Fennessey?

  You look good.

• 2:29:53Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I just, I'm, you know, examining.

• 2:29:56Sean Fennessey?

  You've got the way we were, right?

• 2:29:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:59Sean Fennessey?

  You've got.

• 2:29:59Amanda Dobbins?

  It's important.

• 2:30:00Sean Fennessey?

  You've, I'm, I'm, was, you know, what was really moving was you guys all saying like downhill racer, of course.

• 2:30:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Downhill racer rules.

• 2:30:05Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, great.

• 2:30:05Amanda Dobbins?

  And we need to be interesting and we need to speak to our passions.

• 2:30:08Sean Fennessey?

  I, I, I couldn't agree more. I think that just about does it. So let's just for the, for the, for the, for the public record, we're gonna read the greens. Do you wanna read the greens, Amanda?

• 2:30:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I'd love to.

• 2:30:16Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:30:19Amanda Dobbins?

  We have Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, downhill racer, Jeremiah Johnson, the candidate, the sting, the way we were, three days of the condor, all the president's men, ordinary people, and the old man and the gun.

• 2:30:31Sean Fennessey?

  My blue pick is the hot rock. What's your blue pick?

• 2:30:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Indecent proposal.

• 2:30:34Sean Fennessey?

  What's yours?

• 2:30:35Speaker 03

  Quiz show.

• 2:30:37Sean Fennessey?

  Where can we find you, Tracy Letts? What do you, like, what do you, what do you?

• 2:30:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:41Sean Fennessey?

  What, what do you wanna, is there anything you're working on?

• 2:30:43Speaker 03

  I'm not, I'm not here to promote it.

• 2:30:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:30:46Speaker 03

  I don't come on.

• 2:30:47Sean Fennessey?

  You've given an unusual amount of time to this project.

• 2:30:51Speaker 03

  I'd love this podcast. I love both of you so much.

• 2:30:53Sean Fennessey?

  I wasn't fishing for that.

• 2:30:54Speaker 03

  No, that's why I did it, because I love you guys and I love this podcast. I love being here and being part of this.

• 2:30:59Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we love you too. Thank you.

• 2:31:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you for doing it.

• 2:31:02Sean Fennessey?

  You know who never says that at the end of an episode is Chris Ryan? He never says that. And that, in the, in the race for third chair.

• 2:31:07Amanda Dobbins?

  It's true.

• 2:31:08Sean Fennessey?

  There's a clear leader right now.

• 2:31:09Speaker 03

  There you go. Yeah, is, uh, uh, what's his name? Three name director, uh.

• 2:31:13Sean Fennessey?

  Paul Thomas Anderson.

• 2:31:14Speaker 03

  No, no, no, your friend who does this podcast.

• 2:31:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Alex Ross Perry.

• 2:31:17Speaker 03

  Does he say that at the end of a podcast?

• 2:31:19Sean Fennessey?

  Alex has never said anything nice to me ever.

• 2:31:21Amanda Dobbins?

  No, he just makes a lot of memes of Sean.

• 2:31:23Speaker 03

  He's lobbying to be part of the high counts.

• 2:31:27Sean Fennessey?

  Is that, well, I mean, a lot of people wanna be a part of the high counts. You can't believe the number of mostly men who would like to join us the next time we do this, that, that podcast, which will be, uh, not.

• 2:31:39Speaker 03

  That sounded disrespectful to Alex Ross Perry. I don't mean to disrespect.

• 2:31:44Sean Fennessey?

  He's a true friend of mine.

• 2:31:44Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm a 60-year-old man blanking on a name after a three-hour pod.

• 2:31:48Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, he, he, he needs to earn the right to be invited to that discussion. And he could start by kissing my ass on my own show. And until he does so, until he does so for Amanda, he'll have to observe the council through a window.

• 2:32:05Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode. We'll be back next week, so we're recording this in the past and in the future on the Monday after this.

• 2:32:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 2:32:14Sean Fennessey?

  We will be doing a watch along podcast, watching the film Avatar: The Way of Water.

• 2:32:19Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 2:32:20Sean Fennessey?

  Have you seen the film?

• 2:32:21Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 2:32:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Neither has Chris Ryan, who will be watching it for the first time.

• 2:32:25Speaker 03

  Is that, wait a minute, he's watching it for the first time?

• 2:32:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:32:29Speaker 03

  But has he seen the first one?

• 2:32:31Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 2:32:33Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we'll see if he will have seen it before then.

• 2:32:35Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 2:32:36Sean Fennessey?

  But maybe he won't.

• 2:32:37Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:32:38Sean Fennessey?

  What do you think about that?

• 2:32:42Sean Fennessey?

  See you then.

• 2:33:02Speaker 05

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• 2:33:33Speaker 06

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• 2:33:39Speaker 06

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